From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 7 1:37:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 992E014C2D for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 01:36:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 15303 invoked by alias); 7 Mar 1999 09:36:31 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 15266 invoked by uid 0); 7 Mar 1999 09:36:30 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 7 Mar 1999 09:36:30 -0000 Message-ID: <36E2489F.D75CC0CA@uswest.net> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 01:36:31 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: lynch@rush.net, paulg@interlog.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <199903061735.KAA01139@usr06.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > >Peter Philippe and I were talking about having a "MyBSD" thing going, but > > >it was when we were disgruntled about support being dropped when it came > > >to 2.2.8-STABLE stuff. > > > > How about Freenix? Or has that one been taken/suggested already? > > The reason this question keeps raising its ugly head is the negative > marketing value of the "Free" in "FreeBSD". It's probably not go > over well in "Freenix", either. > > I think "Mustard" might be best. I can see it now: > > "Get a clue: run Mustard Kernel in the Library with an IBM PC". No no no, it was the Plum coloured iMac.... I don't like the name because it's realtively long in comparison to Linux. That's my arguement with Freenix, it's a quick-to-say name. But I guess that's just spitting in a bitbucket... I guess if I got really ambitious (or bored) I could roll my own dist CDs and target them to a specific group, say, Windoze refugees. KDE, Mozilla, easier-to-use installer and a small book teaching basic and intermediate skills. The license would permit me to do this, right? -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 7 4:38:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cs1.cityscope.net (cs1.cityscope.net [206.222.183.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C96B14C37 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 04:38:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ingrid@cityscope.net) Received: from cityscope.net (194.cityscope.net [209.16.49.194]) by cs1.cityscope.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id GAA09664; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 06:37:51 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36E27327.D1272336@cityscope.net> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 06:37:59 -0600 From: Ingrid Kast Fuller Reply-To: ingrid@cityscope.net Organization: CityScope Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Advocacy Cc: Unfurl Subject: Re: Active advocacy References: <40020.920445784@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Let me know if there ARE any articles somewhere to read about starting a FreeBSD users group as I am wanting to start one here where I live. We have a Unix and Linux group, but no FreeBSD group. I have a few questions, maybe someone can reply with an answer: Does the group have to be registered with the state as a non-profit now or can I just start having meetings and then once we get some active support do it. Any input from the more established User groups on getting started or maybe a "this is what we did" message would be great!!! "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > [directed just to -advocacy] > > > Two years ago I lived in Tucson,AZ. After a few newsgroup posts > > and a meeting or two we had a really great group going. Today they > > have over 130 members. In January, after moving to Seattle, WA I > > posted a request to various newsgroups and mailing lists to see if > > there was any interest in a Seattle area users group. Now, two > > months later, the group is getting ready for it's second meeting > > and has 25 people on the mailing list. Some of these people are > > newbies that are getting their "mother's milk" from others on the > > list. Some of them might have given up without that initial boost. > > Wow, that's a nice little "success story" there - any chance of > getting an article on "how to start your own user group" for the > mythical and much-rumored issue #3 of the FreeBSD Newsletter? :) > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message *********************************************************** Ingrid Kast Fuller (ingrid@cityscope.net) CityScope Computer Services Since 1984 CityScope Net (http://www.cityscope.net) 1(713)477-6161 109 West Southmore, Pasadena, TX 77502-1001 *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 7 4:49: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cs1.cityscope.net (cs1.cityscope.net [206.222.183.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213C414CC4; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 04:48:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ingrid@cityscope.net) Received: from cityscope.net (194.cityscope.net [209.16.49.194]) by cs1.cityscope.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id GAA09732; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 06:47:48 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36E2757C.22E80E07@cityscope.net> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 06:47:56 -0600 From: Ingrid Kast Fuller Reply-To: ingrid@cityscope.net Organization: CityScope Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <199903032046.MAA09089@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ....latest literature on FreeBSD.... There's only ONE book in town for FreeBSD....while it is a VERY thorough book and one I resell, it would be nice to see MORE writers writing for FreeBSD! The more books, articles written, user groups, etc... will help us get more exposure. I believe that EACH user group needs to have a Publicity/Advertising chairman and that person is in charge of sending FreeBSD news and press releases to as many media people as possible! Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Perhaps if have a a SWAT press team to attack or educate those lazy > reporters they may think twice about only writing about L****. > > SWAT press team come equip with the latest literature on FreeBSD and > a standard treatise on BSD vs. GPL . > > Amancio > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- *********************************************************** Ingrid Kast Fuller (ingrid@cityscope.net) CityScope Computer Services Since 1984 CityScope Net (http://www.cityscope.net) 1(713)477-6161 109 West Southmore, Pasadena, TX 77502-1001 *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 7 5: 1: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cs1.cityscope.net (cs1.cityscope.net [206.222.183.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96A9D14D48 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 05:01:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ingrid@cityscope.net) Received: from cityscope.net (194.cityscope.net [209.16.49.194]) by cs1.cityscope.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA09843; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 07:00:35 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36E2787B.69D6ECAC@cityscope.net> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 07:00:43 -0600 From: Ingrid Kast Fuller Reply-To: ingrid@cityscope.net Organization: CityScope Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stox@enteract.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yes I agree whole-heartedly.... we NEED a team of writers! Well we could do with one or two writers, but send the press releases by web page and let every FreeBSD user group send the press release out to their local MAJOR city newspapers, computer mags, etc.... Maybe we could have a FREEBSD "PUBLICITY DAY".... we all organize the writings before the date and ...then ALL of us..... (How many is on this list?) send the press releases out to their FAVORITE mags, etc... one press release per person (no big deal, everyone on this list can put out a few minutes to fax or mail it) 300 press releases is better than ONE! > > On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > Perhaps if have a a SWAT press team to attack or educate those lazy > > reporters they may think twice about only writing about L****. > > > >From my experience with the Press ( New York Times, Chicago Tribune, The > Wall Street Journal, to name a few ), you would be amazed at how little > they actually write. Instead, paraphrasing press releases and other > material that is sent to them by "interested" parties. Why do yo think Red > Hat has gotten so much press, they are feeding the media. We must do the > same. What we need is a team of writers. We need to spoon feed them. > > -Ken > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- *********************************************************** Ingrid Kast Fuller (ingrid@cityscope.net) CityScope Computer Services Since 1984 CityScope Net (http://www.cityscope.net) 1(713)477-6161 109 West Southmore, Pasadena, TX 77502-1001 *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 7 6:30:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88ED114D0E for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 06:30:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-015.thuntek.net [207.66.52.15]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA08505; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 07:30:00 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36E28D12.37B671B3@thuntek.net> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 07:28:34 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ingrid@cityscope.net Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: Active advocacy References: <40020.920445784@zippy.cdrom.com> <36E27327.D1272336@cityscope.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ingrid Kast Fuller wrote: > > Let me know if there ARE any articles somewhere to read about starting a > FreeBSD users group as I am wanting to start one here where I live. We > have a Unix and Linux group, but no FreeBSD group. I have a few > questions, maybe someone can reply with an answer: > > Does the group have to be registered with the state as a non-profit now > or can I just start having meetings and then once we get some active > support do it. > It never has to be registered unless you are going to have money change hands and want the tax writeoff. I would suggest that merging the groups in your idea would be a better one unless your LINUXen are the obnoxious type. Most users' groups don't need the nuisance caused by structure and money and registration. Passing the hat is the easiest way to handle money. Either way, just send meeting notices to the local papers (5 weeks in advance for some!) and especially the school computer clubs. If you have a University, ditto the CS lab. Find a neutral site, not your home. Libraries and bank community rooms work well. > Any input from the more established User groups on getting started or > maybe a "this is what we did" message would be great!!! > Hope this helps. Just do it! is the best advice :-D -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 7 8:44:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F5014D21 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 08:44:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Dave@Yost.com) Received: from [205.219.69.138] (205-219-69-138.bayarea.net [205.219.69.138]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05754; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 08:43:51 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Sender: dayost@mail.bayarea.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990302132052.C18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 01:48:13PM -0700 <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 08:36:03 -0800 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Dave Yost Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 1:20 PM -0800 1999-03-02, Gregory Sutter wrote: > The FreeBSD project is _not_ driven by marketing, and I will certainly do= my (albeit small) part to ensure that it stays that way. Sure it's driven by marketing. You can't avoid being driven by marketing. = It's just a matter of how conscious it is, whether it's done by separate= "marketing peole", and how well it's done. In the case you cite of the reasons for the 2-floppy install, the product= happened to be driven by great marketing: Marketing Requirement: Make the system be as easy to install as possible. Engineering counter: But you have to make a choice: 1. install from a single floppy, but there will be several different ones depending on how you're installing the system, or 2. install from two floppies, the same two floppies no matter how you install Marketing clarification: The user sees the choices this way: * complexity - universal two-floppy set vs. having to figure out which single floppy to use depending on various factors * menial labor requirement - two floppies to manipulate vs. one. The extra complexity outweighs the extra menial labor.=20 Alternative #2 is easier, so implement that. This exchange could go on, with Marketing insisting that engineering excise= absolutely every bit of code that isn't needed for the install so it can= still fit, but then Engineering might say, sure we could do that, but it= will cost you X person-months, and Marketing might say they have something= more important for you to work on. because installation is only a tiny part= of the whole experience. You might have said: The FreeBSD project is _not_ driven by bad marketing, and I will certainly do my (albeit small) part to ensure that it stays that way. You don't have to be a "marketing person" to be doing marketing. To go a bit further, I'd say that rather than rebel against the entire concept of marketing, the project would benefit most if it were to embrace the concept of marketing and be more conscious about doing a great job of it. You do have a user community, and you do hope to satisfy them. That's marketing. It would be best to have an explicit set of agreed-upon marketing requirements for the project (read: user experience goals) and use it to guide what gets done and how it gets done. Here's another angle: Why are there separate projects called NetBSD, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD? Isn't it fair to say that at least part of the reason is that the different teams have chosen different priorities in their "marketing requirements"? There are always the two goals in great marketing: Do the right thing. Do the thing right. (as formulated by Guy Kawasaki) Marketing is concerned with both. Engineering is concerned mostly with the latter. Of course, in an open source situation, you'll always have wildcats working on what they want to work on, rather than what some hashed-out master list says is the priorities. That can be good, but it's also useful to have some people working on what's most important according to the marketing thought process, and it's certainly important that there is someone deciding whether the thing has been done right, and rejecting or altering it if it is not. Dave To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 7 11:15:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26FF214BF5 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:15:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA57403; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:15:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Dave Yost Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Mar 1999 08:36:03 PST." Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 11:15:39 -0800 Message-ID: <57399.920834139@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Marketing clarification: > The user sees the choices this way: > * complexity - universal two-floppy set vs. having to figure > out which single floppy to use depending on various factors > * menial labor requirement - two floppies to manipulate vs. > one. The extra complexity outweighs the extra menial labor. > Alternative #2 is easier, so implement that. Thanks for putting this into words that very nicely summarize my own position. This was indeed my rationale for taking the steps I did, but I didn't have as cogent an explanation as this one prepared. As to marketing, I think "marketing" (or, to look at it from a slightly different angle, "being marketable") has always been a hallmark of FreeBSD when compared to the others and should by no means be considered a dirty word. We were the first to actively pursue CD distribution media and a vendor tie-in for same (why? for marketing reasons!), the first to add a fairly decent installer and many other user creature comforts which make the product more attractive to end-users, etc. etc. "BSD" itself has always been the tech's flavor of choice, but marketing it to the more general public was never (to my knowledge) done until BSDI came along. Unfortunatly, BSDI was also too expensive for the general public and that's where I always saw our niche. I have certainly worked from the very beginning of the project to occupy it, and if anything what people are griping about now is that it's time to take it to "the next level" where somebody a lot better at marketing than I grabs the marketing reins and gets us to the next way station. That marketing person (with enough technical clue to understand this unique market niche) is still out there, somewhere, and hopefully we'll find him or her soon. Until then, we can at least do what we can with the folks on this list, many of whom do have some facility with marketing even though it may not be their strong suit. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 7 12: 2:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24C314BF4; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:02:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29432; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:39:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd029359; Sun Mar 7 13:39:10 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23915; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:01:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903072001.NAA23915@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: what's in a name? To: dpilgrim@uswest.net (Nocturne) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:01:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, lynch@rush.net, paulg@interlog.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36E2489F.D75CC0CA@uswest.net> from "Nocturne" at Mar 7, 99 01:36:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I guess if I got really ambitious (or bored) I could roll my own > dist CDs and target them to a specific group, say, Windoze > refugees. KDE, Mozilla, easier-to-use installer and a small book > teaching basic and intermediate skills. The license would permit > me to do this, right? Yes. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 7 12:44: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96C2214CE3 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:44:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22204; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:43:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd022197; Sun Mar 7 13:43:41 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA27148; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:43:40 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903072043.NAA27148@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:43:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Dave@Yost.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <57399.920834139@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 7, 99 11:15:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Two comments on this thread so far: | This exchange could go on, with Marketing insisting that engineering | excise absolutely every bit of code that isn't needed for the install | so it can still fit, but then Engineering might say, sure we could do | that, but it will cost you X person-months, and Marketing might say | they have something more important for you to work on. because | installation is only a tiny part of the whole experience. First, if someone can't install your code, it doesn't matter what you do to the rest of the "experience", they're not going to see any of it. ] As to marketing, I think "marketing" (or, to look at it from a ] slightly different angle, "being marketable") has always been a ] hallmark of FreeBSD when compared to the others and should by no means ] be considered a dirty word. Second, you can make a product as salable/marketable as possible, and you still won't be able to move very many units if the product is not buyable. Being sales focussed is bad. For example, a really trivial thing that could be done that would make people hundreds of times more likely to try FreeBSD is to allow it to install in a subdirectory of a Windows 95/98 file system, such there was no "commit-before-trying" requirement. This would require either a native UMSDOS VFS layer, or finally fixing the stacking, so that you could get UNIX attributes on the files via a stacking layer. You could go this one better than that, and actually place an ICON on the desktop, as part of the install process, that caused the machine to reboot in FreeBSD. You could go two better by placing an AUTORUN.INI on the FreeBSD CDROM that offered to do the install into a subdirectory for you ("Install FreeBSD Test Drive?"). > That marketing person (with enough technical clue to understand this > unique market niche) is still out there, somewhere, and hopefully > we'll find him or her soon. Until then, we can at least do what we > can with the folks on this list, many of whom do have some facility > with marketing even though it may not be their strong suit. FreeBSD is still in the innovator/early adopter phase of the technology adoption life cycle, and it's looking straight into the maw of the chasm (re: Geoffrey Moore, "Crossing the Chasm"). FreeBSD needs to start concentrating on being a whole product, and on segmenting its market. Right now, it's not a whole product, with the exception of its productization by a number of embedded systems companies, and there is no market segment where it is the "must have" soloution. What is FreeBSD? Unless you can answer the quetion in one paragraph small enough to state in a ride in an elevator where your audience is captive, you will never make the mainstream. Let's do the Geoofrey Moore "Define the Battle" exercise for a potentially hot FreeBSD market, the DSL NAT that installs and runs without damaging an existing Windows 95/98 installation. Here's the form: o For (target customer) o Who (statement of the need or opportunity) o The (product name) is a (product category) o That (statement of key benefit - that is, compelling reason to buy) o Unlike (primary competitive alternative: be honest) o Our product (statement of primary differentiation) Here's the statement: For home and small business DSL subscribers who are looking for a cheap way to share a DSL connection between two or more computers the FreeBSD OS is a DSL Network Address Translation product that can install on low end PC hardare that you might already have lying around. Unlike the Linux OS alternative, our product doesn't require removing Windows 95, repartitioning the hard drive, or complicated procedures in an environment unfamiliar to the end user. You want market share? Then segment the market by use model, and build whole products, not things that have to be hacked to function. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 8 12: 5:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4333D14F5E for ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:05:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id VAA04373; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:02:13 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19990308210213.A4345@foobar.franken.de> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:02:13 +0100 From: Harold Gutch To: Brett Glass , Bill Fumerola Cc: Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 01:48:13PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 01:48:13PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >We've put this off long enough. jkh can give you million reasons why he is > >more happy with the 2-floppy solution. > > Well, we all know that Jordan worked long and hard on the install > code and did all sorts of tricks to keep it to one floppy. > Nonetheless, I think that this is an important selling point. > Also, from a technical standpoint, there's no reason why a single > floppy can't reach out to the installation media and bring in any > code that won't fit. This may well be an opportunity to leapfrog > Linux once again. > How about going for the opposite ? If we already have 2 disks and we're not going to go down to a single one again, we might aswell support installs over ISDN (which I am sure that many people in Germany will appreciate, as ISDN is extremely widespread here), or fit the stuff that currently is on the fixit-disk onto the 2-disk-combination. I'm sure there are more things we could support than just the two I mentioned. bye, Harold -- Sleep is an abstinence syndrome wich occurs due to lack of caffein. Wed Mar 4 04:53:33 CET 1998 #unix, ircnet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 8 21:14:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4F214FA9 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:14:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA07735; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 22:13:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990308214333.03ea4a50@localhost> Message-Id: <4.1.19990308214333.03ea4a50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 21:44:15 -0700 To: stox@enteract.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: References: <199903032046.MAA09089@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05:11 PM 3/3/99 -0600, Kenneth P. Stox wrote: >From my experience with the Press ( New York Times, Chicago Tribune, The >Wall Street Journal, to name a few ), you would be amazed at how little >they actually write. Instead, paraphrasing press releases and other >material that is sent to them by "interested" parties. Why do yo think Red >Hat has gotten so much press, they are feeding the media. We must do the >same. What we need is a team of writers. We need to spoon feed them. You're right. This is one of the four advocacy teams I've already proposed forming over in chat. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 8 21:14:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9BBB14FF1 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:14:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA07732; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 22:13:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990308214005.03eaabe0@localhost> Message-Id: <4.1.19990308214005.03eaabe0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 21:42:53 -0700 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: what's in a name? Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy In-Reply-To: <36DDAD74.33EF597A@newsguy.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:45 AM 3/4/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >Well, since FreeBSD is not changing it's name, I think we won't know >the answer until Mr. Lambert finally releases TerryBSD. ;-) I've thought about doing a release called "BFD" -- Brett's FreeBSD Distribution. ;-) It'd include the bits I always have to add after installing. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 8 21:14:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F87C14FE6 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:14:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA07738; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 22:14:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990308214810.03ea4650@localhost> Message-Id: <4.1.19990308214810.03ea4650@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 21:49:01 -0700 To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: what's in a name? Cc: stox@enteract.com In-Reply-To: <36DE10DF.3F57D6A7@guru.wow.aust.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:50 PM 3/4/99 +0800, Jarvis Cochrane wrote: >"Kenneth P. Stox" wrote: > >> On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> >> > Perhaps if have a a SWAT press team to attack or educate those lazy >> > reporters they may think twice about only writing about L****. >> > >> >From my experience with the Press ( New York Times, Chicago Tribune, The >> Wall Street Journal, to name a few ), you would be amazed at how little >> they actually write. Instead, paraphrasing press releases and other >> material that is sent to them by "interested" parties. Why do yo think Red >> Hat has gotten so much press, they are feeding the media. We must do the >> same. What we need is a team of writers. We need to spoon feed them. > >Hey, this is something I can _do_! > >I've been looking for a way to contribute to the BSD and Open Source cause... > >Who do I email? We need a more coordinated effort here. Releases need to be timed to coincide with events, and need to come out regularly. Want to form a press release "team?" --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 8 21:15: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C6514FD6 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:14:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA07729; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 22:13:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990308213030.03ea5c80@localhost> Message-Id: <4.1.19990308213030.03ea5c80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 21:36:39 -0700 To: Bill Fumerola From: Brett Glass Subject: Ports Cc: Brett Taylor , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990302163944.00a1e620@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:32 PM 3/3/99 -0500, Bill Fumerola wrote: >If the users aren't updating their sources/ports, then the new (lack of) >support will not alienate them. They're often adding the port for the first time. Suddenly, they want a Web server, a new editor, a network utility. They get an old one with security holes. Not good. I want to be able to tell my system, "I want the latest version of Program X for the version of the operating system I'm currently running. Make it so." There's no reason why the ports collection can't resolve the dependencies and do that. >Either > Users want new/updated ports, and they keep their source current. Non sequitur. I don't want to have a "versionless" or unstable version of the OS on the machine just to get a recent version of a ported app. As it is, I often forego the ports collection altogether and compile the app myself. This can cause problems because I won't be able to take care of any necessary adaptations that would be made in a port. If someone out there is taking the time to do builds, I should be able to use them. Otherwise, the port maintainer's time and effort are not being used effectively to bring the most benefit to users. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 0: 3:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAEA814D7B for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:03:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA24487; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:02:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36E4D59E.89ACD0F4@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 01:02:38 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Fumerola , Brett Taylor , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports References: <4.1.19990302163944.00a1e620@localhost> <4.1.19990308213030.03ea5c80@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:32 PM 3/3/99 -0500, Bill Fumerola wrote: > > >If the users aren't updating their sources/ports, then the new (lack of) > >support will not alienate them. > > They're often adding the port for the first time. Suddenly, they want a Web > server, a new editor, a network utility. They get an old one with security > holes. Not good. > > I want to be able to tell my system, "I want the latest version of Program X > for the version of the operating system I'm currently running. Make it so." > There's no reason why the ports collection can't resolve the dependencies and > do that. There is one really simple reason: somebody has to DO it. A port is based on a particular snapshot of the sources; if the developers move stuff around the sources the port patch files don't work anymore. It would take constant work for ports to be maintained for any given release. Since the port maintainers are more interested in doing this for -stable and/or -current, I nominate YOU to provide this valuable server to the "trailing edge" corps. > >Either > > Users want new/updated ports, and they keep their source current. > > Non sequitur. I don't want to have a "versionless" or unstable version of the > OS on the machine just to get a recent version of a ported app. As it is, > I often forego the ports collection altogether and compile the app myself. > This can cause problems because I won't be able to take care of any necessary > adaptations that would be made in a port. > > If someone out there is taking the time to do builds, I should be able to > use them. Otherwise, the port maintainer's time and effort are not > being used effectively to bring the most benefit to users. This is a volunteer project. Many of the prot maintainers are using their time effectively to solve THEIR needs, and then sharing this with all other FreeBSD users. If you want something else, feel free to contribute it back to the project when you're done. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 0:44:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442101527B for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:44:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA24552; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:44:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36E4DF56.952E946F@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 01:44:06 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, stox@enteract.com Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <4.1.19990308214810.03ea4650@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > We need a more coordinated effort here. Releases need to be timed to coincide > with events, and need to come out regularly. Want to form a press release > "team?" God help us, Brett wants to become the John Young of FreeBSD. "Releases need to be timed to coincide with events?" How about "Releases need to be timed to coincide with when the code is ready to go?" -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 1:15:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5DC0D14DD1 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 01:15:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 13626 invoked by alias); 9 Mar 1999 09:15:03 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 13585 invoked by uid 0); 9 Mar 1999 09:15:02 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 09:15:02 -0000 Message-ID: <36E4E694.7294F493@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 01:15:00 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, stox@enteract.com Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <4.1.19990308214810.03ea4650@localhost> <36E4DF56.952E946F@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: > > We need a more coordinated effort here. Releases need to be timed to coincide > > with events, and need to come out regularly. Want to form a press release > > "team?" > > God help us, Brett wants to become the John Young of FreeBSD. > > "Releases need to be timed to coincide with events?" How about "Releases > need to be timed to coincide with when the code is ready to go?" I think what he's getting at is that whenever, wherever there's a Linux promotion, we need to be there with our "FreeBSD saves!" signs. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 3: 8:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13633151A8 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 03:08:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id UAA19580; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:07:52 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36E4F0D0.2A0B617B@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:58:40 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, stox@enteract.com Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <4.1.19990308214810.03ea4650@localhost> <36E4DF56.952E946F@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > Brett Glass wrote: > > > > We need a more coordinated effort here. Releases need to be timed to coincide > > with events, and need to come out regularly. Want to form a press release > > "team?" > > God help us, Brett wants to become the John Young of FreeBSD. > > "Releases need to be timed to coincide with events?" How about "Releases > need to be timed to coincide with when the code is ready to go?" Now, Wes, I understand the impulse one might have of just contradicting Brett automatically on everything he says or proposes, lately, but... Our releases have never really been timed to coincide with code. I'd say they are usually done when "well, it has been pretty stable, and we haven't done one lately, so..." or "come on, people, we have been working on this for *ages*! either we release something _now_, or we might just as likely never do it (3.0 :)". I might be mistaken, and Jordan is invited to correct me if so... But I truly think we *could* time our releases to be more event-friendly. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 3:46:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405F1150D4 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 03:46:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10KKxN-0001EN-0K; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:45:53 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA02676; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:45:05 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06714; Tue, 9 Mar 99 11:45:02 GMT Message-Id: <36E509AE.64D2B142@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:44:46 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Wes Peters , Brett Glass , jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, stox@enteract.com Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <4.1.19990308214810.03ea4650@localhost> <36E4DF56.952E946F@softweyr.com> <36E4F0D0.2A0B617B@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > > We need a more coordinated effort here. Releases need to be timed to coincide > > > with events, and need to come out regularly. Want to form a press release > > > "team?" > > > > God help us, Brett wants to become the John Young of FreeBSD. > > > > "Releases need to be timed to coincide with events?" How about "Releases > > need to be timed to coincide with when the code is ready to go?" > > Now, Wes, I understand the impulse one might have of just > contradicting Brett automatically on everything he says or proposes, > lately, but... > > Our releases have never really been timed to coincide with code. I'd > say they are usually done when "well, it has been pretty stable, and > we haven't done one lately, so..." or "come on, people, we have been > working on this for *ages*! either we release something _now_, or we > might just as likely never do it (3.0 :)". I might be mistaken, and > Jordan is invited to correct me if so... But I truly think we > *could* time our releases to be more event-friendly. > Errr, wasn't Brett referring to *press* releases, not FreeBSD releases? > -- > Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) > dcs@newsguy.com > dcs@freebsd.org > > "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 5:21:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC1D14F14 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:21:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA63936 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:20:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: A week at LinuxWorld, a short report. Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 05:20:45 -0800 Message-ID: <63927.920985645@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As some of you may have already heard, FreeBSD did its first "linux show" this last week at LinuxWorld in San Jose, CA. This was a very large gathering of vendors and Linux aficionados and appears to have attracted well over 10,000 people - a very healthy turn-out by anyone's standards. So, how did it go for us? In a nutshell, the show was a big success. We were very well received by the Linux crowd and sold a very respectable amount of FreeBSD merchandise to them as well; not only did they like us, they bought our stuff! :) The vendor show itself was fairly large and represented a good cross-section of the small-time Linux shops with their one-person booths in the corners and the big vendors like Oracle and Coral, with its shouting evangelists and screaming audiences in the middle. The overall geek factor was also very high for an event of this size, and when you've got this many people at a show it's usually in a more Comdex-like atmosphere with a high proportion of suits and salespeople. LinuxWorld represented a very pleasant inversion of the usual geek-to-suit ratio and that meant that we were able to at least get beyond the usual "What's a Unix?" question and into the more meaty issues of performance and ease-of-use with the people who stopped by the booth. Many people who came by were overtly supportive of FreeBSD ("I run both FreeBSD and Linux at home/work/..." was a frequent refrain) and even the Linux die-hards seemed happy that we'd at least shown up to answer their questions. I got the impression that we in the general *BSD community are perceived as being somewhat aristocratic in our attitude towards the Linux folks (an accusation I can't even deny very strongly) and our being there did a lot to change this perception. I also got the chance to berate, in a reasonably constructive way, about 200 Linux developers about the merits of source code control and group collaboration as part of a panel on CASE tools in the open source community and I think it went pretty well. Just about every Linux aficionado I had a chance to talk with at any length went away with the impression that they needed to give FreeBSD a serious looking at, if nothing else, and perhaps even dedicate a partition to it for tracking on an ongoing basis. On the last night of the show, Eric Raymond threw his usual Geeks with Guns event and I was invited along to be one of the range instructors, the whole "teach the Linux people" theme continuing into the area of firearms instruction. I can now say that I've contributed something positive to the Debian team's understanding of both CVS and practical pistolcraft. :-) If this somewhat tiring but rather instructive week taught me any single thing, it's that the Linux community represents a vastly untapped resource for the FreeBSD project given their sheer numbers and general willingness to listen to any *reasonable* argument on why FreeBSD, or even just one or two of its operating principles, offers some advantage. I didn't try to argue FreeBSD's inherent moral superiority to Linux or any such rubbish, I took individual points like the ports collection, the unified source tree, cvs/CVSup/CTM, some of the package system II issues to be dealt with, etc. and argued those instead. Since FreeBSD has implemented many of these things already, anyone who was really interested in those topics (and many were) went away convinced that FreeBSD should be looked at more closely and that's all I wanted. You don't win mind share by clubbing people over the head, you do it by making them curious enough that they come of their own free will. I think I'll be talking to the Linux community more often in the future. To be honest, they were a lot nicer to me than most parts of the *BSD community and I can get better bang-for-the buck by talking to people who aren't *already* FreeBSD users. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 8:15:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01BA014EBC for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:15:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25340; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:14:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36E548D2.9172EBA9@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 09:14:10 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Brett Glass , jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, stox@enteract.com Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <4.1.19990308214810.03ea4650@localhost> <36E4DF56.952E946F@softweyr.com> <36E4F0D0.2A0B617B@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > > We need a more coordinated effort here. Releases need to be timed to coincide > > > with events, and need to come out regularly. Want to form a press release > > > "team?" > > > > God help us, Brett wants to become the John Young of FreeBSD. > > > > "Releases need to be timed to coincide with events?" How about "Releases > > need to be timed to coincide with when the code is ready to go?" > > Now, Wes, I understand the impulse one might have of just > contradicting Brett automatically on everything he says or proposes, > lately, but... > > Our releases have never really been timed to coincide with code. I'd > say they are usually done when "well, it has been pretty stable, and > we haven't done one lately, so..." or "come on, people, we have been > working on this for *ages*! either we release something _now_, or we > might just as likely never do it (3.0 :)". I might be mistaken, and > Jordan is invited to correct me if so... But I truly think we > *could* time our releases to be more event-friendly. This is no way to make code, and no way to live. Every time somebody comes up with this brilliant idea: let's make a relase for XXX show! invariable something goes wrong and everyone ends up killing themselves or quitting over it. It's just not fair to ask volunteers to jump into that fire. It didn't hurt that LinuxExpo timed itself to coincide with the 3.1 Release, though. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 8:18:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B364714CA8 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:18:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id BAA18519; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:17:56 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36E52F8B.FDAD76C8@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 23:26:19 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A week at LinuxWorld, a short report. References: <63927.920985645@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > future. To be honest, they were a lot nicer to me than most parts of > the *BSD community and I can get better bang-for-the buck by talking That's because they didn't know you. Mmm.... that didn't came the way I meant it... ;-> -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 8:19: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA65014D49 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:19:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id BAA18555; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:18:13 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36E53193.87B6D4A5@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 23:34:59 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: Wes Peters , Brett Glass , jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, stox@enteract.com Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <4.1.19990308214810.03ea4650@localhost> <36E4DF56.952E946F@softweyr.com> <36E4F0D0.2A0B617B@newsguy.com> <36E509AE.64D2B142@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Ovens wrote: > > > Errr, wasn't Brett referring to *press* releases, not FreeBSD > releases? He was talking about press releases, all right. But it was my impression that, in this particular case, he was talking about FreeBSD releases. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 8:23:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8058314F29 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:23:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id BAA19328; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:23:08 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36E54A8D.F6D1C757@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:21:33 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, stox@enteract.com Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <4.1.19990308214810.03ea4650@localhost> <36E4DF56.952E946F@softweyr.com> <36E4F0D0.2A0B617B@newsguy.com> <36E548D2.9172EBA9@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > This is no way to make code, and no way to live. Every time somebody > comes up with this brilliant idea: let's make a relase for XXX show! > invariable something goes wrong and everyone ends up killing themselves > or quitting over it. It's just not fair to ask volunteers to jump > into that fire. Well, keep quiet about the show part then. Just set the date appropriately and pretend there is nothing special about it, like Jordan did wit^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 8:37: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5602714CD0 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:36:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20334; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:36:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:36:03 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports In-Reply-To: <36E4D59E.89ACD0F4@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: > > They're often adding the port for the first time. Suddenly, they > > want a Web server, a new editor, a network utility. They get an old > > one with security holes. Not good. > > I want to be able to tell my system, "I want the latest version of > > Program X for the version of the operating system I'm currently > > running. Make it so." There's no reason why the ports collection > > can't resolve the dependencies and do that. > There is one really simple reason: somebody has to DO it. A port is > based on a particular snapshot of the sources; if the developers move > stuff around the sources the port patch files don't work anymore. It > would take constant work for ports to be maintained for any given > release. Wes you're talking to a brick wall. Brett wants the best of all worlds - he wants to run old releases and yet still follow the cutting edge of ports. Now he'll say he can't track ports because he's running 2.2.8-RELEASE. He can but he's unwilling to accept that some things may not work because ports track -STABLE and the conversion from a.out to ELF caused a lot of hassle for the ports team. > Since the port maintainers are more interested in doing this for > -stable and/or -current, I nominate YOU to provide this valuable > server to the "trailing edge" corps. What, Brett do work? He's unwilling to be maintainer on a single port less yet all 2100 for X.X.X-RELEASE (where X.X.X is the version Brett is running) - I wouldn't hold your breath here. > > Non sequitur. I don't want to have a "versionless" or unstable > > version of the OS on the machine just to get a recent version of a > > ported app. Oh yeah - sorry 3.1-STABLE. Sorry - that is versionless huh. I wonder what the 3.1 means? > > If someone out there is taking the time to do builds, I should be > > able to use them. Otherwise, the port maintainer's time and effort > > are not being used effectively to bring the most benefit to users. > This is a volunteer project. Many of the port maintainers are using > their time effectively to solve THEIR needs, and then sharing this > with all other FreeBSD users. If you want something else, feel free > to contribute it back to the project when you're done. And again, Wes notes the key point Brett can't seem to grasp: it's a volunteer effort. Brett, why don't you do what you said you were going to do in another thread and go roll out BBSD (Brett's BSD) and go promote that and maintain ports for all releases for all time and leave the FreeBSD lists alone. Now, time to go add Brett to my .procmailrc so I don't see anymore of his silliness. Brett (not Glass) Taylor *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 8:55:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056E314FC9 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:55:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA12256; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:55:23 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990309092847.04176b50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 09:40:56 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Ports Cc: Bill Fumerola , Brett Taylor , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36E4D59E.89ACD0F4@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19990302163944.00a1e620@localhost> <4.1.19990308213030.03ea5c80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:02 AM 3/9/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >There is one really simple reason: somebody has to DO it. A port is based >on a particular snapshot of the sources; if the developers move stuff >around the sources the port patch files don't work anymore. True. What we need is the latest version of the ported app. The port system should be engineered, though, so that any version of the OS released within the last year will be able to run it. Yes, this might mean some library dependencies that have to be handled, but the port/package code already has the ability to handle this! >It would >take constant work for ports to be maintained for any given release. Why? How much work would it take in addition to what a port maintainer already does? (There aren't THAT many releases per year, and the a.out-to-ELF transition is a one-time delta. Even this can be solved by making the older versions accept ELFs. After all, the Linux emulation module loads ELFs now. All that's necessary to load a FreeBSD ELF is NOT to swap the APIs.) >Since the port maintainers are more interested in doing this for -stable >and/or -current, I nominate YOU to provide this valuable server to the >"trailing edge" corps. Again, it should be possible to make this part of maintaining a port, so that it happens "automagically" (or pretty much so). I've suggested some ways to do it, but I don't "own" that code and am probably not the best person to modify it -- at least not without consultation. Who owns the code for: The package manager? The Linux emulation module? The utilities that the port maintainers use to prepare ports for publication? >> If someone out there is taking the time to do builds, I should be able to >> use them. Otherwise, the port maintainer's time and effort are not >> being used effectively to bring the most benefit to users. > >This is a volunteer project. Many of the prot maintainers are using >their time effectively to solve THEIR needs, and then sharing this >with all other FreeBSD users. I'm sure that at least some of the port maintainers have mission critical systems which are a release or two behind the "bleeding edge" and need this. Likewise, I'll bet others are CVSuping their systems every day. Support should be consistent. Yes, this is a volunteer project. And since the FreeBSD Project prides itself on professionalism, it should be more than willing to add that "professional edge" to what it does. >If you want something else, feel free >to contribute it back to the project when you're done. I'm contributing the idea and a proposed methodology, and would be delighted to contribute to the code. However, as I said earlier, I'd like to work with the people who currently view the code as their "territory." In the past, I've found that I've "stepped on toes" when I've just tried to contribute a change without working with the people who feel they have "ownership" of certain parts of the system. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 8:56: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5222214FAF for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:55:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA12261; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:55:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990309094137.04170100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 09:55:13 -0700 To: Brett Taylor , Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Ports Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <36E4D59E.89ACD0F4@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:36 AM 3/9/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >Wes you're talking to a brick wall. Brett wants the best of all worlds - >he wants to run old releases and yet still follow the cutting edge of >ports. The main reason to get RECENT (if not "cutting edge") ports is to close security holes. No one's system should be compromised because he or she can't get a version that's immune to the latest "skript kiddie" exploit. >Now he'll say he can't track ports because he's running 2.2.8-RELEASE. He >can but he's unwilling to accept that some things may not work because >ports track -STABLE and the conversion from a.out to ELF caused a lot of >hassle for the ports team. It's not professional to leave users of older versions of one's software without access to important utilities and upgrades. Yes, this should have been thought through before the ELF conversion, but now it's hitting those of us who have another two 3.x releases before our next upgrade. >What, Brett do work? He's unwilling to be maintainer on a single port >less yet all 2100 for X.X.X-RELEASE (where X.X.X is the version Brett is >running) - I wouldn't hold your breath here. Give me a break. No one has asked me to maintain a port to date. What's more, if what you say above is correct, I *can't* maintain a port on the 2.2.8 systems we're running here. >Oh yeah - sorry 3.1-STABLE. Sorry - that is versionless huh. I wonder >what the 3.1 means? In thie case of "3.1-STABLE," it means that it's one of a mass of daily builds, each with varying degrees of stability and security. It's not appropriate for mission critical systems. To quote the FreeBSD Handbook: | Please note that the stable tree endeavors, above all, to be fully | compilable and stable at all times, but we do occasionally make mistakes | (these are still active sources with quickly-transmitted updates, after | all). We also do our best to thoroughly test fixes in current before | bringing them into stable, but sometimes our tests fail to catch every case. Not acceptable for a machine that must be available 24x7. >And again, Wes notes the key point Brett can't seem to grasp: it's a >volunteer effort. Even volunteers should be professional. They should support others (and themselves!) when maximum reliability is needed. >Brett, why don't you do what you said you were going to do in another >thread and go roll out BBSD (Brett's BSD) and go promote that and maintain >ports for all releases for all time and leave the FreeBSD lists alone. Because that would be silly and wasteful. It should be possible, in fact easy, for support for earlier versions to be rolled in automatically as the port maintainer goes about his or her usual work. It seems to me that you've got your head in the sand here -- so much so that you're in denial about this need rather than thinking about ways to address it. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 11:12:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD77714F29 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:11:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA23606; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:09:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA14213; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:09:44 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id MAA23000; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:09:29 -0700 Message-ID: <36E571F5.4CCFCA2B@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:09:41 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Fumerola , Brett Taylor , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports References: <4.1.19990302163944.00a1e620@localhost> <4.1.19990308213030.03ea5c80@localhost> <4.1.19990309092847.04176b50@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 01:02 AM 3/9/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > >It would > >take constant work for ports to be maintained for any given release. > > Why? How much work would it take in addition to what a port maintainer > already does? Development machines running old releases, time to work on them, and a good reason to do so. You've provided none of the above, other than "I want them." > (There aren't THAT many releases per year, and the > a.out-to-ELF transition is a one-time delta. Even this can be solved > by making the older versions accept ELFs. After all, the Linux emulation > module loads ELFs now. All that's necessary to load a FreeBSD ELF is NOT to > swap the APIs.) > > >Since the port maintainers are more interested in doing this for -stable > >and/or -current, I nominate YOU to provide this valuable server to the > >"trailing edge" corps. > > Again, it should be possible to make this part of maintaining a port, so that > it happens "automagically" (or pretty much so). I've suggested some ways > to do it, but I don't "own" that code and am probably not the best person > to modify it -- at least not without consultation. Who owns the code for: It is part of maintaining the port, if the port maintainer wants to do that. If they don't, it doesn't get done unless somebody else steps up to the plate. See, for example, Brian's user-mode PPP, which he keeps up to date for several systems including FreeBSD 2.2.x. > >> If someone out there is taking the time to do builds, I should be able to > >> use them. Otherwise, the port maintainer's time and effort are not > >> being used effectively to bring the most benefit to users. > > > >This is a volunteer project. Many of the prot maintainers are using > >their time effectively to solve THEIR needs, and then sharing this > >with all other FreeBSD users. > > I'm sure that at least some of the port maintainers have mission critical > systems which are a release or two behind the "bleeding edge" and > need this. Likewise, I'll bet others are CVSuping their systems every day. > Support should be consistent. Support should be whatever meets THEIR needs and wants, you're just along for the ride. Unless you're paying them to do it, which you're free to do at ANY time. > Yes, this is a volunteer project. And > since the FreeBSD Project prides itself on professionalism, it should be > more than willing to add that "professional edge" to what it does. You seem to have a different view of professionalism than anyone else. Show me another software company that supports their out-of-date products. Hell, most of them don't even support what they're currently selling! > >If you want something else, feel free > >to contribute it back to the project when you're done. > > I'm contributing the idea and a proposed methodology, and would be delighted > to contribute to the code. However, as I said earlier, I'd like to work with > the people who currently view the code as their "territory." In the past, > I've found that I've "stepped on toes" when I've just tried to contribute > a change without working with the people who feel they have "ownership" > of certain parts of the system. If they viewed the code their "territory", they probably wouldn't be giving away the source, now would they? If you have a port that is of particular importance to you, I'm sure the port maintainer would be glad to help you bring it up-to-date for 2.2.8 or any other release, just don't expect him or her to pick up your bag of rocks and carry it for you. You ask too much. If you want commercial support, go pay for it. See http://www.freebsdmall.com/support/ for details. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 11:32:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC221502E for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:32:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21011; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:31:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:31:18 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990309092847.04176b50@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Again, it should be possible to make this part of maintaining a port, > so that it happens "automagically" (or pretty much so). I've suggested > some ways to do it, but I don't "own" that code and am probably not > the best person to modify it -- at least not without consultation. Who > owns the code for: Let me answer these since apparently you're too lazy to look for yourself (gee, just look at the source or use anoncvs) > The package manager? Satoshi Asami (asami@freebsd.org) That said they are actively working on package manager II - you may have to talk to Jordan about that as I don't recall everyone who is working on it. > The Linux emulation module? Soren Schmidt appears to be the main man here (looking at the CVS logs and /usr/src/lkm/linux/linux.c). (sos@freebsd.org) > The utilities that the port maintainers use to prepare ports for > publication? Satoshi Asami (asami@freebsd.org) > Yes, this is a volunteer project. And since the FreeBSD Project prides > itself on professionalism, it should be more than willing to add that > "professional edge" to what it does. What do you mean by "professionalism"? Should Microsoft still support people who are running Windows 3.1 and who can't run the 98 version of Notepad? That's essentially what you want, except Notepad is a MS product. The ports are software independent from the FreeBSD project. Face facts - FreeBSD has switched to ELF. Most ports (even the current, CVSup'ed today) will still compile fine on 2.2.8 systems provided you add the ports_update package for 2.2.8, but some will not (I still have one machine running 2.2.8-STABLE). One example that will not is libgtop (needed for Gnome stuff) - it will not compile on 2.2.8 wo/ some really major tweaking. Again, I'm sure if you want to start the "new ports for people running old releases" Satoshi would be MORE than happy to have you. Go talk to him or Soren. Write some code. Do some work. Give back to FreeBSD if you really care that much about it succeeding. I'm sure there are lots of people who will be happy to see it too. For some reason though I won't be holding my breath waiting for you to actually do anything. Brett Taylor *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 11:35:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2350A152C7 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:35:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21039; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:34:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:34:43 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990309094137.04170100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, > The main reason to get RECENT (if not "cutting edge") ports is to > close security holes. No one's system should be compromised because he > or she can't get a version that's immune to the latest "skript kiddie" > exploit. Then aren't you tracking -STABLE or -CURRENT to get the latest security fixes to the OS? If not then you must be patching by hand. See, that's the SAME thing as patching the ports that won't work because you aren't tracking. > Give me a break. No one has asked me to maintain a port to date. As I told you before no one will ASK you to maintain a port - you volunteer and do it. There are at least, in my present ports tree that does not have any of the foreign language ports, 142 ports that have no maintainer. Do you use any of these? Maybe. Could you help by volunteering yourself as a maintainer by doing a simple send-pr with a patch saying you want to be the maintainer? Yes. Do you use software that hasn't been ported? If yes, could you do a port and be the maintainer for it? Yes. Does someone have to ask you to do this? NO! Since you seem to need to be asked, could you please maintain the lesstif port? I use it fairly frequently and I have to not have the latest greatest version. Or how about wget? I use that too and no one maintains it either. Or how about fixing libgtop so it will compile on 2.2.8 so I could try Gnome on my one remaining 2.2.8-STABLE machine. > What's more, if what you say above is correct, I *can't* maintain a port > on the 2.2.8 systems we're running here. > Because that would be silly and wasteful. It should be possible, in > fact easy, for support for earlier versions to be rolled in > automatically as the port maintainer goes about his or her usual work. If it's easy then go do it and stop complaining about it. Put your effort where your complaining is. I've told you in my other email who "owns" the code you want to work on. Write up some code, do a send-pr and let them look at it - maybe it'll get included. If it doesn't then you can start complaining, until then you're just crying wolf. Brett Taylor *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 11:51: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8FE15097 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:51:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA24349; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA15862; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:49:29 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id MAA27949; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:49:22 -0700 Message-ID: <36E57B4E.9B269B7C@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:49:34 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Taylor Cc: Brett Glass , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Taylor wrote: > > > The package manager? > > Satoshi Asami (asami@freebsd.org) That said they are actively working on > package manager II - you may have to talk to Jordan about that as I don't > recall everyone who is working on it. Mike Smith, primarily. I don't think building in support for 2.2.8 is on his agenda. Check with Mike, but I think package manager:TNG is destined to run on 4.0 and above. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 11:56: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02A2015440 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:55:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA266147200; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:20:00 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:20:00 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , Wes Peters , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990309094137.04170100@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > The main reason to get RECENT (if not "cutting edge") ports is to > close security holes. No one's system should be compromised because > he or she can't get a version that's immune to the latest "skript > kiddie" exploit. We're not disallowing the older revisions to get the updated software, we just don't test for every case. If YOU'D like to branch the ports tree and then merge a zillion checkins a day, be my guest. Actually don't, because everyone gets burnt out sometimes and we'll be left with a half-ass system. I run 2.2.8, and if something doesn't work, I'll fix it, then I'll commit patches if I can do it in a way that doesn't bring down other branches. I'm surely not going to make sure EVERY port runs on all 3 branches, and you can't expect MAINTAINERs to, either. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 12:17:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555EB154F0 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:17:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA14605; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:16:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990309130815.04168c60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 13:10:53 -0700 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Ports Cc: Wes Peters , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990309092847.04176b50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:31 PM 3/9/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >Face facts - FreeBSD has switched to ELF. Most ports (even the current, >CVSup'ed today) will still compile fine on 2.2.8 systems provided you add >the ports_update package for 2.2.8, but some will not (I still have one >machine running 2.2.8-STABLE). One example that will not is libgtop >(needed for Gnome stuff) - it will not compile on 2.2.8 wo/ some really >major tweaking. > libgtop is now GPLed, which means that anything that links it in must also be GPLed. This means that there won't be much development for it among those who do not have the GPL "religion." >Again, I'm sure if you want to start the "new ports for people running old >releases" Satoshi would be MORE than happy to have you. Go talk to him or >Soren. I'll have to do that. Hopefully, they won't dismiss users who installed within the last year and need solid production systems. >For some reason though I won't be holding my breath waiting for you to >actually do anything. Why not? I'm already working on drivers and other projects -- including PR, which FreeBSD needs far more than code. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 12:17:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 221BD15523 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:17:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA14602; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:16:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990309130444.0416d5c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 13:07:26 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Ports Cc: Bill Fumerola , Brett Taylor , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36E571F5.4CCFCA2B@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19990302163944.00a1e620@localhost> <4.1.19990308213030.03ea5c80@localhost> <4.1.19990309092847.04176b50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:09 PM 3/9/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >You seem to have a different view of professionalism than anyone else. Show >me another software company that supports their out-of-date products. This one's gonna hurt, I reckon: Microsoft. Patches, fixes, and new software for Windows 95 are still available on their Web site. >If they viewed the code their "territory", they probably wouldn't be giving >away the source, now would they? Not necessarily. They still retain "ownership" in that they control the development of the code. >If you have a port that is of particular >importance to you, I'm sure the port maintainer would be glad to help you >bring it up-to-date for 2.2.8 or any other release, just don't expect him >or her to pick up your bag of rocks and carry it for you. It shouldn't require even as much effort as picking up a bag of rocks. The problem here seems to be systemic. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 12:34:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AD314F23 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:34:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA67166; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:33:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Taylor Cc: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:34:43 MST." Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:33:24 -0800 Message-ID: <67162.921011604@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Look guys, ports will continue to be maintained substantially the way they're currently maintained despite ANY discussion that may occur here about any "better way", so really, what's the point? No amount of impassioned argument on either side is going to change a frickin' thing here. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 13: 1:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AE5BB14F1B for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:01:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 24275 invoked from network); 9 Mar 1999 21:01:08 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Mar 1999 21:01:08 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA68046; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:01:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903092101.QAA68046@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: A week at LinuxWorld, a short report. In-Reply-To: <63927.920985645@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 9, 99 05:20:45 am" To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:01:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > I think I'll be talking to the Linux community more often in the > future. To be honest, they were a lot nicer to me than most parts of > the *BSD community and I can get better bang-for-the buck by talking > to people who aren't *already* FreeBSD users. :) > That is desperately needed, and (one of) the moves in the right direction. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 13:12:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA84314C2F for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:12:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id NAA25124; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id NAA18117; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:10:59 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id OAA07875; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:10:52 -0700 Message-ID: <36E58E68.C1F691D@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 14:11:04 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Fumerola , Brett Taylor , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports References: <4.1.19990302163944.00a1e620@localhost> <4.1.19990308213030.03ea5c80@localhost> <4.1.19990309092847.04176b50@localhost> <4.1.19990309130444.0416d5c0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:09 PM 3/9/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > >You seem to have a different view of professionalism than anyone else. Show > >me another software company that supports their out-of-date products. > > This one's gonna hurt, I reckon: Microsoft. Patches, fixes, and new software > for Windows 95 are still available on their Web site. And the damned thing still crashes daily, and when, after 3 weeks of trying, you do actually get a live human being on their developer support line, they tell you they've assigned an engineer to the case and he will get back with you in 3 to 6 weeks. Then he tells you you're stupid, it's not supposed to do that, and closes the bug, so he can get on to the next of 104,000 bugs in his queue alone. Sure, Microsoft supports their products. Been there, done that, got the rectal fissures to show for it. > It shouldn't require even as much effort as picking up a bag of rocks. > The problem here seems to be systemic. Yeah: people keep asking for freebies without wanting to contribute back. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 13:17:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A49915057 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:17:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id NAA25204; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id NAA18241; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:14:54 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id OAA08405; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:14:46 -0700 Message-ID: <36E58F52.EDE01EF4@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 14:14:58 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brett Taylor , Brett Glass , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports References: <67162.921011604@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > Look guys, ports will continue to be maintained substantially the way > they're currently maintained despite ANY discussion that may occur > here about any "better way", so really, what's the point? No amount > of impassioned argument on either side is going to change a frickin' > thing here. Nor should it. My point, as well as those of the others in this dicussion, is that the current scheme is NOT broken, it just is. I'm sure you are as tired as the rest of us of Brett's impassioned pleas to spoon-feed him everything he needs to run his business with no consideration given back. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 13:42:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3591505B for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:42:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA15645; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:41:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990309142131.00ca2cc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 14:41:13 -0700 To: Wes Peters , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Ports Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36E58F52.EDE01EF4@softweyr.com> References: <67162.921011604@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:14 PM 3/9/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >Nor should it. My point, as well as those of the others in this dicussion, >is that the current scheme is NOT broken, it just is. It's easy to say "it's not broken" until you attempt to bring in a port, for a version of the OS that was released very recently, and find out that it's an old version that has a security hole. A system that doesn't make it easy to do what makes sense -- that is, to keep the ports for recently released OS versions current -- is broken, or at the very least has a real problem. >I'm sure you are as >tired as the rest of us of Brett's impassioned pleas to spoon-feed him >everything he needs to run his business with no consideration given back. Give me a break. The two most recent offers I've made to "give back" have been rejected. One of these -- an offer to devote a bunch of time to getting FreeBSD running on IBM Netfinity servers -- was rejected rather capriciously. Such treatment doesn't exactly make folks feel as if contributions are welcome. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 14: 0:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pcslink.com (pcslink.com [206.43.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6232E14BEA for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:00:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ryan@pcslink.com) Received: (from ryan@localhost) by pcslink.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA14539 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:59:56 -0700 (MST) From: Ryan Mooney Message-Id: <199903092159.OAA14539@pcslink.com> Subject: BSD Presentation in Phoenix AZ tonight To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:59:56 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm giving a presentation for our local AZSAGE group here in Phoenix AZ tonight (on Mar 9, 1999) on "*BSD the other free unix". This is as a followup to several Linux presentations we just had (one by the Executive Director of Linux International). Likely I will have a fairly heavy showing from the local Linux users group to (between us we are around 500 users - 10-20% show usually show up). The AZSAGE calendar showing the event and directions is at: http://www.azsage.org/cal/ and a weberized copy of the presentation is at: http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/talks/azsage/ I had hoped to get this out announcement out here earlier but my day job keeps interfering :) I'll also be announcing that me and several others are forming a *BSD users group here, if anyone else here is in Phoenix and wants to help out send me a note - I need all the help I can get, organizational skills are not my high point :) Much thanks to Walnut Creek and the FreeBSD Mall for all the promotional material. I'll let everyone know how it goes :) >-=-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-=-< Ryan Mooney Phone (602)265-9188 PCSLink ryan@pcslink.com Internet Services NT is an excellent choice for managers who need to show that they used up their fiscal year budget for hardware/software expenditures. <-=-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-=-> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 21:54:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3194C14EC3 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:54:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id OAA07952; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:53:32 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36E6088C.E5119D2F@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:52:12 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Taylor , Brett Glass , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports References: <36E57B4E.9B269B7C@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > Mike Smith, primarily. I don't think building in support for 2.2.8 is on > his agenda. Check with Mike, but I think package manager:TNG is destined > to run on 4.0 and above. Mmmm... Lemme see... four stable releases a year, next year as target for 4.0. So... 4.0-RELEASE ought to be out after 3.4 or 3.5. Brett will come to 3.x at 3.3. So... three to six months after that, will ask him to go to 4.0. I think he will complain. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 9 21:57:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net (magicnet.magicnet.net [204.96.116.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F57E14E9E for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:57:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mrj@magicnet.net) Received: from loco.mojo (root@pm51-43.magicnet.net [208.6.200.51]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.8.6/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA26468; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 00:57:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (mrj@localhost) by loco.mojo (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA08234; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 00:12:22 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 00:12:22 -0500 (EST) From: "F. D. Jones" To: eluglist@elug.org Cc: advocacy@freeBSD.org Subject: Re: [elug] A week at LinuxWorld, a short report. (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This was quite a positive perspective. I've been saying I'm gonna install freeBSD when I get a round tooit. I'm wondering about multi-boot options on a single system -- not the boot loader, that should be trivial; rather, what filesystems could be shared, and which would have to be unique? For example, I suspect I could transparently boot between linux and freebsd and use the same /home filesystem and big chunks of /etc (smb.conf, for example). Anyone try something like this? How much would HAVE to be unique; what could be shared across boots so that if the system were a server, client machines wouldn't know the difference? fdj To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 10 7:56:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492BB15158 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:56:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA27786; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:55:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36E695DF.5BB2CBB3@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:55:11 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Brett Taylor , Brett Glass , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports References: <36E57B4E.9B269B7C@softweyr.com> <36E6088C.E5119D2F@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > Mike Smith, primarily. I don't think building in support for 2.2.8 is on > > his agenda. Check with Mike, but I think package manager:TNG is destined > > to run on 4.0 and above. > > Mmmm... Lemme see... four stable releases a year, next year as > target for 4.0. So... 4.0-RELEASE ought to be out after 3.4 or 3.5. > Brett will come to 3.x at 3.3. So... three to six months after that, > will ask him to go to 4.0. I think he will complain. :-) And if you and I had a clue, we'd just ignore it and move on. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 10 8:38:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F223214E8C for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:38:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.125]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAAE40 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:38:18 +0100 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18296 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:38:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:38:23 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Unix Fragmentation article Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well this article: http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/columns/0,4351,392442,00.html sure is positive about Unix/Linux, I will now rub his nose into the *BSD community since he forgot... Other people care to point this out to him as well? =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The idea does not replace the work... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 10 10:16:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.intercom.com (mail.intercom.com [206.98.165.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6896F15100; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jason@intercom.com) Received: from mail.intercom.com (mail.intercom.com [206.98.165.10]) by mail.intercom.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA10681; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:15:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:15:03 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason J. Horton" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Daemon images Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Does anyone know where one can find decent hi resolution images of the BSD Daemon? Everything I can find is small, low res stuff off of websites. -Jason J. Horton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 10 10:40:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E98A515392; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:40:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA01792; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:39:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199903101839.NAA01792@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: Daemon images In-Reply-To: from "Jason J. Horton" at "Mar 10, 99 01:15:03 pm" To: jason@intercom.com (Jason J. Horton) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:39:58 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jason J. Horton wrote, > Does anyone know where one can find decent hi resolution images > of the BSD Daemon? Everything I can find is small, low res stuff > off of websites. alt.binaries.pictures.erocitca.daemon.bsd -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 10 23:24:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cs1.cityscope.net (cs1.cityscope.net [206.222.183.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEEBB15101; Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:24:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ingrid@cityscope.net) Received: from cityscope.net (ikf.cityscope.net [206.222.183.7]) by cs1.cityscope.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id BAA19697; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:23:46 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36E77344.441F5900@cityscope.net> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:39:48 -0600 From: Ingrid Kast Fuller Organization: CityScope Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org, hou-freebsd@cityscope.net Subject: Houston FreeBSD Users Group Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The Houston FreeBSD Users Group meeting is set for March 27th! If you are in the Houston area, please join us at our first meeting! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ We're excited about forming this new group for enthusiasts of Open Source Unix based in the Houston area. The Houston FreeBSD Users Group will be having it's first meeting on Saturday, March 27th at 1:00pm at the Pasadena Public Library conference room. For more details and a map, please visit: http://www.cityscope.net/~houfug If you would like to join our mailing list, please subscribe to: To: majordomo@cityscope.net subscribe hou-freebsd youremailaddress ********************************************************** HOUston FreeBSD Users Group -- for Houston Area Open Source Unix Enthusiasts! HOUFUG is for the education and promotion of FreeBSD, an advanced BSD Unix operating system for PC-compatible computers. This free feature packed operating system offers advanced networking, performance, security and compatibility features many operating systems are missing. *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 0:28:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837B9151F8 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:28:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA29687 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:28:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36E77EA5.E3D6A466@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:28:21 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG O'Reilly has published an article on the history of "Open Source" at http://opensource.oreilly.com/news/scoville_0399.html It contains a reasonably nice plug for BSD in general and FreeBSD in particular: It is difficult to overestimate the role of BSD UNIX in modern computing. Not only did it beget many key features of all future versions of UNIX, but it was also under the BSD flag that UNIX met the Internet (though at the time it went by its more ancient name, Arpanet). Much of the most common system software surrounding the TCP/IP protocol was developed at UC Berkeley, and was introduced to the world as part of BSD. In the years since, BSD has enjoyed not only a substantial commercial run, but has also found its way into a commerce-free distribution of its own, one to rival Linux. Though not as popular or mediagenic as Linux, FreeBSD can nevertheless be widely found on the machines of hobbyists, ISPs, and major corporations alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 4:33:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cyberscript.net (unknown [209.53.28.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D050A1529A; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 04:32:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsdram@cyberscript.net) Received: from cyberscript.net (ipa185.new-cumberland4.pa.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.130.185]) by cyberscript.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA49376; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 04:31:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsdram@cyberscript.net) Message-ID: <36E90AB7.4509EF39@cyberscript.net> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:38:15 -0500 From: bSDRAM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason J. Horton" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Daemon images References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey this is a nice site with quite a few daemon images. http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/bsd/index.html Bill Rollins Jason J. Horton wrote: > Does anyone know where one can find decent hi resolution images > of the BSD Daemon? Everything I can find is small, low res stuff > off of websites. > > -Jason J. Horton > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 6:54:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6335A150FD for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 06:54:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-040.thuntek.net [207.66.52.40]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA04461; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:53:59 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36E7D8A7.A68B140E@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:52:23 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate References: <36E77EA5.E3D6A466@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just got an ORA flier announcing a new book about 'Open Source' people. Kirk McKusick is the closest thing we have to an entry, not that he's small fry in any way. O'Reilly seems to be more interested in "the movement" than they are in the actuality. I'm afraid Tim and his people have gone commercial on us. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 8: 9:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from uswgne6.uswc.uswest.com (uswgne6.uswest.com [204.26.87.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47276150CC; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mmeola@ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com) Received: from egate.mnet.uswest.com (mailgate.uswc.uswest.com [151.119.130.8]) by uswgne6.uswc.uswest.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17454; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:10:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from smokey.uswc.uswest.com (smokey.uswc.uswest.com [151.119.16.10]) by egate.mnet.uswest.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27638; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:09:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com (ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com [151.116.151.207]) by smokey.uswc.uswest.com (8.6.11/uswc-hub.950320) with ESMTP id JAA16317; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:08:59 -0700 Received: from ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com (localhost.uswc.uswest.com [127.0.0.1]) by ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com (8.6.11/uswc-server.950313) with ESMTP id JAA29414; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:08:51 -0700 Message-Id: <199903111608.JAA29414@ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 From: Matt Meola To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Daemon images In-Reply-To: <36E90AB7.4509EF39@cyberscript.net> References: <36E90AB7.4509EF39@cyberscript.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:08:50 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hey this is a nice site with quite a few daemon images. > > http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/bsd/index.html I must admit, I just *love* the NetBSD logo -- one of the best I've ever seen. BTW, I also love the graphic on http://www.kmfms.com/ :-) Perhaps some one with some artistic skill could add in a Daemon to the slaughter... :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 8:32:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F4815356 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:32:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id IAA28871; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:32:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:32:21 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: announce@bafug.org Subject: March BAFUG in San Francisco Message-ID: <19990311083221.B28828@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sorry this is so late. I was out of town on family business and just got back yesterday. All those who are planing on attending please send me email so I can get a headcount for pizza. Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- BAFUG -- The Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, March 11th. This months meeting will be held at The Silicon Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> Due to unforseen problems this months meeting will not have any speakers. This will be you basic pizza and shmooz meeting ==> Josef Grosch will talk about their plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on March 20th at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Oakland Convention Center. We will also be holding our traditional Install-A-Thon at the Cow Place in Daly City. The date for this show is March 27th. This Install-A-Thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux). See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> Thanks for all the donations of hardware to build BAFUG display & demo machine for use at the Install-a-thons. A big thinks to Whistle Communications for providing us with a very long time loan of a Whistle Interjet for us to use as an FTP server at our Install-A-Thons. Whistle Communications can be found at www.whistle.com ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at the Silicon Reef in San Francisco. The Silicon Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By Muni: Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights stop nearby. By BART: Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, on the right (south) side. By Car: From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.reef.com http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before February 11th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 8:52:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D100153BC for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:51:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA05049; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:51:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990311093845.00989ee0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:42:13 -0700 To: Donald Wilde , Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36E7D8A7.A68B140E@thuntek.net> References: <36E77EA5.E3D6A466@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG O'Reilly is unabashed and open about its commercial nature. They do what they think will sell, period. That's why, for example, they did a very administrator-friendly Web server for Windows but not for UNIX. They're pushing Linux because this is what they believe will sell. Only if FreeBSD is properly marketed will it achieve a significant profile. I'd be delighted to start a marketing team. But will I get support from Walnut Creek and TPTB? --Brett Glass At 07:52 AM 3/11/99 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >I just got an ORA flier announcing a new book about 'Open Source' >people. Kirk McKusick is the closest thing we have to an entry, not that >he's small fry in any way. O'Reilly seems to be more interested in "the >movement" than they are in the actuality. I'm afraid Tim and his people >have gone commercial on us. >-- > oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * > o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ > V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] >/oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 11: 5: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stcgate.statcan.ca (stcgate.statcan.ca [142.206.192.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 363B115049 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:05:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Mike.Jeays@statcan.ca) Received: from stcinet (stcinet.statcan.ca [142.206.128.146]) by stcgate.statcan.ca (8.9.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA28481; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:11:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from statcan.ca by statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA23048; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:04:53 -0500; sender Mike.Jeays@a.statcan.ca Received: from bora2.statcan.ca (bora2.statcan.ca [142.206.248.251]) by smtpshb.statcan.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28366; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:07:53 -0500 Received: from smtpsha.iusd.statcan.ca by bora2.statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA04024; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:31:00 -0500 ; sender Mike.Jeays@a.statcan.ca Received: from smtpsha.iusd.statcan.ca (smtpsha.iusd.statcan.ca [142.205.132.248]) by smtpsha.iusd.statcan.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27287; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:26:33 -0500 Received: from imap1a.statcan.ca (imap1a.statcan.ca [142.205.234.34]) by smtpsha.iusd.statcan.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27209; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:25:52 -0500 X-Internal-ID: 36E157B9000063EC Received: from a.statcan.ca (142.205.168.21) by imap1a.statcan.ca (NPlex 2.0.112); Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:18:44 -0500 Message-ID: <36E80A17.863AF454@a.statcan.ca> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:23:19 -0500 From: Mike Jeays Organization: Statistics Canada/Statistique Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate References: <36E77EA5.E3D6A466@softweyr.com> <4.1.19990311093845.00989ee0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > O'Reilly is unabashed and open about its commercial nature. They > do what they think will sell, period. That's why, for example, they did > a very administrator-friendly Web server for Windows but not for UNIX. > They're pushing Linux because this is what they believe will sell. > > Only if FreeBSD is properly marketed will it achieve a significant > profile. I'd be delighted to start a marketing team. But will I > get support from Walnut Creek and TPTB? > > --Brett Glass > At least they seem to tell it the way they see it. My organization is switching to Outlook, and me waving around a copy of "Outlook Annoyances" (377 pages, ISBN 1-56592-384-7) is not making me many friends in some quarters. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 11:37:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1DFE14E9C for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:37:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA06704; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:37:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990311122850.03ec4650@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:29:34 -0700 To: Mike Jeays From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36E80A17.863AF454@a.statcan.ca> References: <36E77EA5.E3D6A466@softweyr.com> <4.1.19990311093845.00989ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:23 PM 3/11/99 -0500, Mike Jeays wrote: >switching to Outlook, and me waving around a copy of "Outlook >Annoyances" >(377 pages, ISBN 1-56592-384-7) is not making me many friends in some >quarters. A developer in my area -- one who uses Microsoft tools in some of his products, in fact, refers to it as "Microsoft Outhouse (tm)." ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 12:12:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D6F151CA for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:12:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id MAA29979; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:11:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:11:48 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass Cc: Donald Wilde , Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Message-ID: <19990311121148.A29929@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <36E77EA5.E3D6A466@softweyr.com> <36E7D8A7.A68B140E@thuntek.net> <4.1.19990311093845.00989ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990311093845.00989ee0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Mar 11, 1999 at 09:42:13AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 11, 1999 at 09:42:13AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > O'Reilly is unabashed and open about its commercial nature. They > do what they think will sell, period. That's why, for example, they did > a very administrator-friendly Web server for Windows but not for UNIX. > They're pushing Linux because this is what they believe will sell. > > Only if FreeBSD is properly marketed will it achieve a significant > profile. I'd be delighted to start a marketing team. But will I > get support from Walnut Creek and TPTB? What ideas do you have? Lets hear them. If you want something done, go do it. Waiting for others do something will end up killing FreeBSD. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 12:26:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDFF715464 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:26:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01284; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:26:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd001269; Thu Mar 11 13:25:58 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA17741; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:25:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903112025.NAA17741@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:25:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Mike.Jeays@statcan.ca, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990311122850.03ec4650@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 11, 99 12:29:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >switching to Outlook, and me waving around a copy of "Outlook > >Annoyances" > >(377 pages, ISBN 1-56592-384-7) is not making me many friends in some > >quarters. > > A developer in my area -- one who uses Microsoft tools in some of his > products, in fact, refers to it as "Microsoft Outhouse (tm)." ;-) I have a program called "lookout" that is specifically designed to make messages in a POP3 maildrop "safe" for OutLook to download, since the idiots who wrote it insisted on violating RFC 1939, and attempt to assign meaning to the message contents (header AND body!) while they are engaged in the download process. This means that any OutLook bugs (of which there are dozens in this category) in message interpretation can result in a "stuck" message in the POP3 maildrop. What's even more stupid is that OutLook can actually generate messages that are structured in such a way as to trigger these bugs -- in other words, OutLook can send mail that OutLook can't download. There is a special place in hell for programmers that write code like this; unfortunately, they aren't corralled to Outlook, or even to Microsoft, for that matter. Beam me up, Scottie... 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 12:54:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BE9E14FB3 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:54:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA07403; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:54:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990311134817.03ec5100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:54:09 -0700 To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Cc: Donald Wilde , Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <19990311121148.A29929@ontario.mooseriver.com> References: <4.1.19990311093845.00989ee0@localhost> <36E77EA5.E3D6A466@softweyr.com> <36E7D8A7.A68B140E@thuntek.net> <4.1.19990311093845.00989ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, I've already proposed the creation of four teams to work on different types of advocacy. (The only one of them for which a need has been questioned is the "raving loonies." I personally think that at least some of the success of Linux is due to its more passionate advocates, and think -- as does Guy Kawasaki -- that a such a group should be given an accepted place in a PR effort. Jordan doesn't like the idea of a "lunatic fringe;" I say that, since it'll happen anyway unless the product is a total failure, it's best to fine-tune and balance its efforts rather than making it a rogue group. I think that a cadre of mischievous and good-natured "Daemons" could in fact have a lot of appeal.) If you'd like, I'll repost the proposal with some modifications that folks have suggested to me in private mail. --Brett At 12:11 PM 3/11/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >On Thu, Mar 11, 1999 at 09:42:13AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >> O'Reilly is unabashed and open about its commercial nature. They >> do what they think will sell, period. That's why, for example, they did >> a very administrator-friendly Web server for Windows but not for UNIX. >> They're pushing Linux because this is what they believe will sell. >> >> Only if FreeBSD is properly marketed will it achieve a significant >> profile. I'd be delighted to start a marketing team. But will I >> get support from Walnut Creek and TPTB? > >What ideas do you have? Lets hear them. If you want something done, go do >it. Waiting for others do something will end up killing FreeBSD. > > >Josef > >-- >Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 >jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 13: 0:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533A414F2D for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:00:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04354; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:00:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Donald Wilde , Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:42:13 MST." <4.1.19990311093845.00989ee0@localhost> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:00:24 -0800 Message-ID: <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Only if FreeBSD is properly marketed will it achieve a significant > profile. I'd be delighted to start a marketing team. But will I > get support from Walnut Creek and TPTB? I think we're still looking for a marketing person who doesn't manage to offend quite so many people, to absolutely frank about it. You're quite effective at marketing, Brett, but your history at inspiring both love and hate has swung just a little too far in each direction and I sort of look at you as a Josef Goebbels - a highly effective speaker and good motivator but also an out-of-control time bomb that I don't want to be anywhere near when it goes off. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 13: 3: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23DC15166 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:02:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id NAA30319; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:01:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:01:00 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, Donald Wilde , Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Message-ID: <19990311130100.A30275@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <4.1.19990311093845.00989ee0@localhost> <36E77EA5.E3D6A466@softweyr.com> <36E7D8A7.A68B140E@thuntek.net> <4.1.19990311093845.00989ee0@localhost> <19990311121148.A29929@ontario.mooseriver.com> <4.1.19990311134817.03ec5100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990311134817.03ec5100@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Mar 11, 1999 at 01:54:09PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 11, 1999 at 01:54:09PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: [ DELETED ] > If you'd like, I'll repost the proposal with some modifications > that folks have suggested to me in private mail. Yes, please repost your proposal. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 13: 9:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5529A15248 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:09:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu ([132.170.240.30]:65339 "HELO pegasus.cc.ucf.edu" ident: "ewayte") by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu with SMTP id <99323-14285>; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:05:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:05:32 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Jeays , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990311122850.03ec4650@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG For years, I've referred to their document processing product as "Microsoft Turd." NT - Not Today, Not Tomorrow, No Thanks! Eric Wayte Database Administrator University of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:29:34 -0700 > From: Brett Glass > To: Mike Jeays > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate > > At 01:23 PM 3/11/99 -0500, Mike Jeays wrote: > > >switching to Outlook, and me waving around a copy of "Outlook > >Annoyances" > >(377 pages, ISBN 1-56592-384-7) is not making me many friends in some > >quarters. > > A developer in my area -- one who uses Microsoft tools in some of his > products, in fact, refers to it as "Microsoft Outhouse (tm)." ;-) > > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 13:16:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6B72152BE for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:15:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA07599; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:15:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:15:16 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Cc: Donald Wilde , Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:00 PM 3/11/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I think we're still looking for a marketing person who doesn't manage >to offend quite so many people, to absolutely frank about it. The only people I seem to have offended were those whose toes I've stepped on unknowingly -- or people who identify anyone with whom they do not agree as an enemy. I don't know if it's possible to avoid those kinds of slights and still be able to take a stand about anything at all! >You're quite effective at marketing, Brett, but your history at inspiring >both love and hate has swung just a little too far in each direction That's the problem. In my experience, whenever you embrace a strong viewpoint and sticks to yer guns, thems that loves ya will really loves ya, and thems that hates ya wills hates yer guts ferever. ;-) I didn't say that I wanted to be the spokesman -- just a coordinator and/or an active member/leader of one or more of the teams. I'd be glad to push toward the podium some spokesman other than me who seem to be able to turn away wrath more effectively. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 13:24:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CEEA1532C for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:23:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA07666; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:23:29 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990311141549.040dcef0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:18:33 -0700 To: Eric Wayte From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Cc: Mike Jeays , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990311122850.03ec4650@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Looks like Microsoft is developing an entire package of products with scatalogical names: Microsoft Turd, Microsoft Outhouse, Microsoft PowerPuke, Microsoft Internal Explorer. They're probably part of a suite called (get ready to groan!)... Orifice 2000. Sorry, couldn't resist. --Brett At 04:05 PM 3/11/99 -0500, Eric Wayte wrote: >For years, I've referred to their document processing product as >"Microsoft Turd." > >NT - Not Today, Not Tomorrow, No Thanks! > >Eric Wayte >Database Administrator >University of Central Florida >ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu > > >On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:29:34 -0700 >> From: Brett Glass >> To: Mike Jeays >> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >> Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open >Source/Free Software Debate >> >> At 01:23 PM 3/11/99 -0500, Mike Jeays wrote: >> >> >switching to Outlook, and me waving around a copy of "Outlook >> >Annoyances" >> >(377 pages, ISBN 1-56592-384-7) is not making me many friends in some >> >quarters. >> >> A developer in my area -- one who uses Microsoft tools in some of his >> products, in fact, refers to it as "Microsoft Outhouse (tm)." ;-) >> >> --Brett >> >> >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 14:29:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pcslink.com (pcslink.com [206.43.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF0DD14FCA for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:29:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ryan@pcslink.com) Received: (from ryan@localhost) by pcslink.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id PAA14679 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:28:45 -0700 (MST) From: Ryan Mooney Message-Id: <199903112228.PAA14679@pcslink.com> Subject: Phoenix BSD meeting results To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:28:45 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well the tuesday meeting I held here in Phoenix AZ was a raving success. We had room for about 20 people and almost 40 showed up. People stood in the halls OUTSIDE the room for an hour and a half to listen to the talk (to say that I was amazed is a little bit of an understatement). Looks like this will lead to presenting to a couple of the local Linux Groups too (the linux users were there in force, I gave out newsletters and stickers for them to pass around at the next meeting). Anyway there are now 16 actual users in the local user group, which isn't to bad for first go around. If anyone else in Phoenix AZ wants to help/join/whatever the home page again is: http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ Later. >-=-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-=-< Ryan Mooney Phone (602)265-9188 PCSLink ryan@pcslink.com Internet Services NT is an excellent choice for managers who need to show that they used up their fiscal year budget for hardware/software expenditures. <-=-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-=-> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 14:41:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B809152DF for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:41:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10LE8D-0001d3-0A; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:40:45 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id WAA04102; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:40:10 GMT Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00549; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:37:33 GMT (envelope-from marko) Message-ID: <19990311223733.A537@localhost> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:37:33 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Eric Wayte Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate References: <4.1.19990311122850.03ec4650@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Eric Wayte on Thu, Mar 11, 1999 at 04:05:32PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 11, 1999 at 04:05:32PM -0500, Eric Wayte wrote: > For years, I've referred to their document processing product as > "Microsoft Turd." > What about "Microsoft Orifice" and "Microsoft Abcess" > NT - Not Today, Not Tomorrow, No Thanks! > Nearly There Nice Try Network Trasher Notoriously Temperamental No Testicles -- Way to go Eddie! Eddie Irvine, Winner, 1999 Australian GP FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 14:53:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1097A151F7 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:53:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05042; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:53:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Ryan Mooney Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Phoenix BSD meeting results In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:28:45 MST." <199903112228.PAA14679@pcslink.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:53:29 -0800 Message-ID: <5040.921192809@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well the tuesday meeting I held here in Phoenix AZ was a raving success. > We had room for about 20 people and almost 40 showed up. People stood in > the halls OUTSIDE the room for an hour and a half to listen to the talk > (to say that I was amazed is a little bit of an understatement). Looks > like this will lead to presenting to a couple of the local Linux Groups > too (the linux users were there in force, I gave out newsletters and > stickers for them to pass around at the next meeting). Anyway there are > now 16 actual users in the local user group, which isn't to bad for Excellent! This, my friends, is more of the kind of advocacy I personally would like to see a whole lot more of. So far most of what this list has talked about has been either how Linux is doing (snore) or how we need to Organize Ourselves in 3 part harmony before anything can happen. The above posting tells quite a different tale of someone who simply said "hey, I'll go talk and see what happens" and, as we can see, actually getting out there and doing the advocacy appears to be the MOST SUCCESSFUL method established to date! :-) Any of you know of any local Linux groups in your area? Get in touch with them and offer to speak about what FreeBSD also has to offer, not attacking their OS or their license but simply placing ours in contrast to it, and I think you'll be surprised (like Ryan) at how well it goes. Once you've done the legwork of actually scheduling something and you would like a little logistical support, drop me an email telling me what you need (stickers, newsletters, etc. - give me also *quantities* please!) and I'll do my best to help you out. Again, only do this once you're seriously committed though since these things cost us real money and we don't need to be sending it out to people who'll just leave it in a drawer pending an event which, for whatever reason, never actually comes together. I know how that goes! Thanks. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 18:12:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A73914C15 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA19596; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:41:58 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA90880; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:41:52 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990312124152.Y490@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:41:52 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Donald Wilde , Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Treading on toes (was: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate) References: <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Mar 11, 1999 at 02:15:16PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 11 March 1999 at 14:15:16 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:00 PM 3/11/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> I think we're still looking for a marketing person who doesn't manage >> to offend quite so many people, to absolutely frank about it. > > The only people I seem to have offended were those whose toes I've > stepped on unknowingly Well, step on people's toes once, and a reasonable person will forgive you. Do it again, and they'll think you're clumsy. But when they go to a lot of trouble to explain the situation, and you don't listen and carry on stepping on their toes, they tend to avoid you. > or people who identify anyone with whom they do not agree as an > enemy. I don't know if it's possible to avoid those kinds of slights > and still be able to take a stand about anything at all! That could be a valid statement, though of course it's got to be subjective. Many people take stands, but not many have caused as much offense as you have. > I didn't say that I wanted to be the spokesman -- just a coordinator > and/or an active member/leader of one or more of the teams. I'd be glad > to push toward the podium some spokesman other than me who seem to be > able to turn away wrath more effectively. I think that there are enough people who are saying "Brett, stop talking and do something" to make this a necessity. But remember that word "team". You'd have to accept the fact that the goals of the team wouldn't be your own personal goals (for example, I think that attacking the GPL right now would be a Bad Thing). Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 19:48:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 966B315036 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:48:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA10869; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:48:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990311204009.040aa890@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:48:04 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Treading on toes (was: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate) Cc: Donald Wilde , Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990312124152.Y490@lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:41 PM 3/12/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >Well, step on people's toes once, and a reasonable person will forgive >you. Do it again, and they'll think you're clumsy. But when they go >to a lot of trouble to explain the situation, and you don't listen and >carry on stepping on their toes, they tend to avoid you. So far -- and this seems odd -- the only times I seem to have stepped upon toes is when I've OFFERED TO CONTRIBUTE TIME OR CODE. This suggests to me that people in the "inner circle" of the group are sufficiently territorial to feel slighted when you offer to work on something that they consider to be their "baby." However, I really do want to give back to the group, so I find it odd (and, in fact, a potentially serious issue) that I can't find a way to do so without offending someone! >> I didn't say that I wanted to be the spokesman -- just a coordinator >> and/or an active member/leader of one or more of the teams. I'd be glad >> to push toward the podium some spokesman other than me who seem to be >> able to turn away wrath more effectively. > >I think that there are enough people who are saying "Brett, stop >talking and do something" to make this a necessity. Well, what do we need to get going? We have this list. What else? A Web site? (Can I FTP pages onto www.freebsd.org?) >But remember that >word "team". You'd have to accept the fact that the goals of the team >wouldn't be your own personal goals (for example, I think that >attacking the GPL right now would be a Bad Thing). Well, perhaps the operative word here is "attack." I think that "educate" is a better way to put it. People need to know that the GPL is attacking THEM -- their livelihoods, their choice of available software products, their ability to go out there and build something good. I think that one of the best points of FreeBSD is that it's NOT that way, and at least some of our advocates should say so. If someone is really opposed to saying anything at all about the issue, so be it. But the view should be expressed. it was on the FreeBSD v. Linux v. NT sheet that was given away at LinuxWorld, and the point was actually well taken. Our advocates don't have to agree on everything; they merely have to agree to work together. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 20:17:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC2315162 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:17:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02151; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:16:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36E89512.C5C28863@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:16:18 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Treading on toes (was: O'Reilly article: Whence theSource: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate) References: <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <4.1.19990311204009.040aa890@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:41 PM 3/12/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >Well, step on people's toes once, and a reasonable person will forgive > >you. Do it again, and they'll think you're clumsy. But when they go > >to a lot of trouble to explain the situation, and you don't listen and > >carry on stepping on their toes, they tend to avoid you. > > So far -- and this seems odd -- the only times I seem to have stepped > upon toes is when I've OFFERED TO CONTRIBUTE TIME OR CODE. To paraphrase an old joke, this "is strong, and contains that which promotes growth." (In other words, it's a crock of shit and it stinks.) The numerous times you've offended ME, every one of them, are when you've jumped in here with both feet, kicking and screaming for someone to DO SOMETHING FOR YOU RIGHT AWAY, AND DO IT MY WAY BECAUSE EVERY OTHER WAY IS STUPID! I've rarely, if ever, seen you volunteer to DO anything until long after everyone is already so pissed off they can't see straight. > This > suggests to me that people in the "inner circle" of the group are > sufficiently territorial to feel slighted when you offer to work > on something that they consider to be their "baby." However, I really > do want to give back to the group, so I find it odd (and, in fact, > a potentially serious issue) that I can't find a way to do so without > offending someone! I certainly agree that is a problem; nobody here wants to turn away any willing workers. I for one strongly regret the passing of Frank Pawlak from this list shortly before the foundation of Daemon News, because I think Frank would have contributed to it frequently and well. Perhaps the next time you come across a problem you'd like to address, you should start off by saying "I've noticed the ports for 2.2.8 aren't being updated as frequently as -STABLE anymore, and I'd like to help. I can serve as a coordinator for this project, and can handle the XXX and YYY ports myself. Would anybody like to join me in assisting in this, and does anyone have any suggestions of where I might troll for more volunteers." In contrast, your start to this thread this time sounded *to me* like: "Hey! Nobody's maintaining the ports on 2.2.8! I *need* those ports, dammit! You guys are a bunch of incompetent unprofessional bozos for permitting this major oversite! Who's butt do I have to kick to get MY ports updated this instant?!?!" > Our advocates don't have to agree on everything; they merely have to agree > to work together. And your point is? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 20:26:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E849150D7 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:26:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA11192; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:26:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990311211831.040bc900@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:26:04 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Treading on toes (was: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate) Cc: Greg Lehey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36E89512.C5C28863@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <4.1.19990311204009.040aa890@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:16 PM 3/11/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >To paraphrase an old joke, this "is strong, and contains that which >promotes growth." (In other words, it's a crock of shit and it stinks.) > >The numerous times you've offended ME, every one of them, are when you've >jumped in here with both feet, kicking and screaming for someone to DO >SOMETHING FOR YOU RIGHT AWAY, AND DO IT MY WAY BECAUSE EVERY OTHER WAY >IS STUPID! Not so. I've volunteered to work on these things, but people seem to be unwilling even to help because it's their "baby" and not their priority. >I've rarely, if ever, seen you volunteer to DO anything until >long after everyone is already so pissed off they can't see straight. Also untrue. I've volunteered to fix disk drivers, write LAN card drivers, work on getting FreeBSD running on NetFinity servers, work on install routines, and more. >I certainly agree that is a problem; nobody here wants to turn away any >willing workers. I for one strongly regret the passing of Frank Pawlak >from this list shortly before the foundation of Daemon News, because I >think Frank would have contributed to it frequently and well. > >Perhaps the next time you come across a problem you'd like to address, >you should start off by saying "I've noticed the ports for 2.2.8 aren't >being updated as frequently as -STABLE anymore, and I'd like to help. >I can serve as a coordinator for this project, and can handle the XXX >and YYY ports myself. Would anybody like to join me in assisting in >this, and does anyone have any suggestions of where I might troll for >more volunteers." Well, if I said that, I wouldn't have been saying what I was actually proposing. I wasn't proposing to update specific ports but rather to do something more fundamental: make it so that it's easy for every port maintainer to keep ports updated for older versions with little or no effort. >In contrast, your start to this thread this time sounded *to me* like: >"Hey! Nobody's maintaining the ports on 2.2.8! I *need* those ports, Well, it was indeed a shock to me when I found out that a version of the OS that's only a few months old was already not being supported. >dammit! I didn't say THAT, though. >You guys are a bunch of incompetent unprofessional bozos for >permitting this major oversite! Nope. I did suggest that this did make FreeBSD's support look bad, and that for a product that claims to be more "professional" than Linux it is a major liability. >Who's butt do I have to kick to get MY ports updated this instant?!?!" Actually, I'd already recompiled the stuff I needed, so I didn't say this at all. But I was still a bit in shock about the whole thing. >> Our advocates don't have to agree on everything; they merely have to agree >> to work together. > >And your point is? Did you read the rest of my message? I was telling Greg that it was fine for him to disagree with me, even vigorously. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 11 23: 4:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C595C14BD3 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:04:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22719; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:04:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:04:17 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Greg Lehey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Treading on toes (was: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate) Message-ID: <19990311230416.A22479@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <4.1.19990311204009.040aa890@localhost> <36E89512.C5C28863@softweyr.com> <4.1.19990311211831.040bc900@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990311211831.040bc900@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Mar 11, 1999 at 09:26:04PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 11, 1999 at 09:26:04PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:16 PM 3/11/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > >To paraphrase an old joke, this "is strong, and contains that which > >promotes growth." (In other words, it's a crock of shit and it stinks.) > > > >The numerous times you've offended ME, every one of them, are when you've > >jumped in here with both feet, kicking and screaming for someone to DO > >SOMETHING FOR YOU RIGHT AWAY, AND DO IT MY WAY BECAUSE EVERY OTHER WAY > >IS STUPID! > > Not so. I've volunteered to work on these things, but people seem to be Brett, I think the most vigorous argument against you is not that you can be very (some say over-) zealous about causes you feel strongly about, not that you don't/haven't/whatever contribute code to the source base (because you contribute articles in magazines, etc), and not that you never admit that you're wrong (because you sometimes are not wrong, and often the position is arguable anyway), but that you refuse to even admit the _possibility_ that others see things differently than yourself. You will argue a point not just into the ground, but straight through it and out the other side of the world, before ever admitting or even realizing that other viewpoints exist and may not be utterly incompatible with your worldview. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Heisenberg might have been here. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 8: 1:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from liffey.co-operation-ireland.ie (d1-ppp-140.connect.ie [194.106.128.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B6F4153A3 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:00:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie) Received: from it1 (it1 [199.107.2.129]) by liffey.co-operation-ireland.ie (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA14417; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:55:57 GMT (envelope-from relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990312155805.00817e60@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:58:05 +0000 To: banksie@cix.co.uk, itweek@zd.com From: Michael Doyle Subject: Re: Article "One-Stop versus point" Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In your article "One-stop versus point" (IT Week, 8 March 99) you make the point that with the differing providers for Linux applications, your applications can easily get out of synch with each other. The FreeBSD operating system (which IT Week seems to ignore except for remarks in passing) has a single source for ported applications which are kept in step with each other, and with the current "leading edge" of the operating system. There are currently more than 2,000 applications in the ports library maintained by the FreeBSD ports team. In addition to these resources, FreeBSD can run most Linux applications under emulation if a native port does not exist. FreeBSD offers just what you claim Linux needs to offer to compete with Microsoft - a single, unified, source of applications in step with the current version of the operating system Michael Doyle Network Administrator Co-operation Ireland. <>< ============================================================ ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.co-operation-ireland.ie/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 8: 3:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A88A155F7 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:03:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-059.thuntek.net [207.66.52.59]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id JAA22522; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:03:24 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36E93A6F.CCB54D9E@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:01:51 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: new non-BG thread References: <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <19990312124152.Y490@lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > [snip] > I think that > attacking the GPL right now would be a Bad Thing). > > Greg > -- I agree that attacking it is a Bad Thing, but pointing out the freedom of the BSD license is a Good Thing. Attacking something is rarely a good strategy when you have fewer troops. Positivity will get you lots of mileage in this situation, but negativity will just breed more negativity. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 10: 3:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F4CB15379 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:03:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA16484; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:02:23 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990312105647.00cb8e00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:02:18 -0700 To: Donald Wilde , Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: "Non-BG thread" indeed. Hmph. Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36E93A6F.CCB54D9E@thuntek.net> References: <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <19990312124152.Y490@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think that both explaining the adverse consequences of the GPL and pointing out that the BSD license is better are both good things. If explaining the problems caused by the GPL is "attacking" it -- well, then, so be it. When there's a fire in a building, you don't just say, "Gee, it's such a nice day today. Why don't you just step outside?" You should at least mention the potential downside of staying in the building and being burned to a crisp. ;-) As far as I know, I'm the only person who is actively seeking to educate businesses about the intent and deleterious effects of the GPL. --Brett At 09:01 AM 3/12/99 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >Greg Lehey wrote: >> [snip] >> I think that >> attacking the GPL right now would be a Bad Thing). >> >> Greg >> -- > >I agree that attacking it is a Bad Thing, but pointing out the freedom >of the BSD license is a Good Thing. Attacking something is rarely a good >strategy when you have fewer troops. Positivity will get you lots of >mileage in this situation, but negativity will just breed more >negativity. > >-- > oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * > o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ > V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] >/oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 10:35:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF80155AD for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:34:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Dave@Yost.com) Received: from [205.219.69.138] (205-219-69-138.bayarea.net [205.219.69.138]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA13287; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:34:24 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: dayost@mail.bayarea.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199903072043.NAA27148@usr04.primenet.com> References: <57399.920834139@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 7, 99 11:15:39 am Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:27:12 -0800 To: Terry Lambert From: Dave Yost Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 8:43 PM +0000 1999-03-07, Terry Lambert wrote: > For example, a really trivial thing that could be done that would > make people hundreds of times more likely to try FreeBSD is to allow > it to install in a subdirectory of a Windows 95/98 file system, such > there was no "commit-before-trying" requirement. This would require > either a native UMSDOS VFS layer, or finally fixing the stacking, so > that you could get UNIX attributes on the files via a stacking layer. > You could go this one better than that, and actually place an ICON > on the desktop, as part of the install process, that caused the > machine to reboot in FreeBSD. You could go two better by placing an > AUTORUN.INI on the FreeBSD CDROM that offered to do the install into > a subdirectory for you ("Install FreeBSD Test Drive?"). Minimizing the cost/difficulty of tryout is good. These are great ideas. Dave To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 11: 5: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28A614D54 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14943; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:04:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:04:08 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Treading on toes (was: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990311211831.040bc900@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, (cc: list trimmed) On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:16 PM 3/11/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > >Perhaps the next time you come across a problem you'd like to address, > >you should start off by saying "I've noticed the ports for 2.2.8 aren't > >being updated as frequently as -STABLE anymore, and I'd like to help. > >I can serve as a coordinator for this project, and can handle the XXX > >and YYY ports myself. Would anybody like to join me in assisting in > >this, and does anyone have any suggestions of where I might troll for > >more volunteers." > > Well, if I said that, I wouldn't have been saying what I was actually > proposing. I wasn't proposing to update specific ports but rather to > do something more fundamental: make it so that it's easy for every > port maintainer to keep ports updated for older versions with little > or no effort. And have you talked to Satoshi about this? I gave you his name and email address (not that it's not in the handbook as "ports coordinator." Have you coded up a little test case so people (especially Satoshi) can review it? Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 11:41:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38573153DC for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:41:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05327; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:41:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd005253; Fri Mar 12 12:40:51 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23571; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:40:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903121940.MAA23571@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:40:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, dwilde1@thuntek.net, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 11, 99 01:00:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Only if FreeBSD is properly marketed will it achieve a significant > > profile. I'd be delighted to start a marketing team. But will I > > get support from Walnut Creek and TPTB? > > I think we're still looking for a marketing person who doesn't manage > to offend quite so many people, to absolutely frank about it. You're > quite effective at marketing, Brett, but your history at inspiring > both love and hate has swung just a little too far in each direction > and I sort of look at you as a Josef Goebbels - a highly effective > speaker and good motivator but also an out-of-control time bomb that > I don't want to be anywhere near when it goes off. :) Jordan, FreeBSD needs Brett, and as many people like Brett as possible. Guy Kawasaki says it far better than I, so I will let him say it for me by excerpting his work: Rules For Revolutionaries Guy Kawasaki, Michele Moreno Harper Collins Publisher's, Inc. ISBN: 0-88730-996-8 Buy this book. Now. Before you even read these excerpts. Expense it. It will be the best US$25 that your company has ever spent on product evangelism and building channel pull for your product (or service). PS: If you want to do clever marketing, build customer loyalty, and stymie your opponents, also buy "Driving Your Competition Crazy". PPS: Why are you still reading this, instead of buying the book? PPPS: Unless, of course, you already bought them, and you're back, in which case ignore the previous "PPS"; sorry about that... Excerpted for educational purposes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ... Part 1: Create Like a God ... a great product catalyzes string feelings: People either love it or hate it, and there are few people in between. Great products are emotive for two reasons: o They enhance people's lives. They make people feel more creative, productive, and happy. Thus, an emotional bond develops between great product or services and people. o They threaten some people's comfort level. An innovative, superior product or service often causes turbulence in the status quo of people's thinking, and small minds hate tur- bulence. This doesn't mean that when people hate your product or service, you've got a winner. And it doesn't mean that you should design a product or service that people will hate. But you should strive to create something that some people will love rather than something everyone will merely like. Believe me, if you succeed, the haters will come, but the commitment from the people who love your product will outweigh their negativity. ... Ignore naysayers The defenders of the status quo will almost always tell you that your idea won't work or that it's not necessary. After all, they built the status quo, and you are now attacking them! Thus, ignoring naysayers is necessary to create a revolution. Here is a list of the major categories of people to ignore, and why: [ why elided: buy the book already -- ed ] Naysayer #1: Customers and market research Naysayer #2: Critics and schmexperts Naysayer #3: Your own company Naysayer #4: The competition ... Part 2: Command Like a King Evangelism Frequently Asked Questions, Part II ... Q. How can I tell if someone will be a good evangelist for my product or cause? A. "...Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." The most important quality is that the person loves your prod- uct and believes in it. This factor, more than educational back- greound or work experience, will determine the person's suc- cess as an evangelist. Thus, pick someone who loves your product over someone who has a great background but no passion for your product. One additional thought about finding evangelists: The best evangelists for a product will find you -- you don't have to find them. The will hunt you down and try their damnedest to get a job at your company. Q. How can I determine if someone is at all open to my cause? A. You'll see it in their eyes: They either get it or they don't. They will also get it in the first five minutes or they'll never get it. And if they don't get it right away, no matter how seemingly important they are to the success of your product, move on to greener pastures. ... Q. How does an evangelist avoid looking like a fanatic? A. This question is a frame, and I refuse to be framed. It pre-sup- poses that looking like a fanatic is bad, so you want to avoid it. It may not be. The definition of a fanatic is being "unrea- sonably zealous." I'm not advocating tying a white bandanna with a rising sun on it around your head and strapping yourself into a plane, but there are times and places to be unreasonably zeal- ous. Status quo-perpetuating peaople, _nota bene_, may be right- fully accused of being "unreasonably resistant to change." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you haven't bought the book, and are reading this because you are not currently running (not walking) to the nearest bookstore... why? Get off your butt and buy the book. That is all. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 11:50:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF1015337 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:50:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23392; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:49:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd023344; Fri Mar 12 12:49:45 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23933; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:49:40 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903121949.MAA23933@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Treading on toes (was: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:49:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, dwilde1@thuntek.net, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990312124152.Y490@lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 12, 99 12:41:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I didn't say that I wanted to be the spokesman -- just a coordinator > > and/or an active member/leader of one or more of the teams. I'd be glad > > to push toward the podium some spokesman other than me who seem to be > > able to turn away wrath more effectively. > > I think that there are enough people who are saying "Brett, stop > talking and do something" to make this a necessity. But remember that > word "team". You'd have to accept the fact that the goals of the team > wouldn't be your own personal goals (for example, I think that > attacking the GPL right now would be a Bad Thing). Can a person be both a Californian and an American at the same time? How about both a Catholic and an Italian? Most people have more than one thing in which they believe, and we should respect their right to hold those beliefs, even if an external observer sees conflicting loyalties or contradictions in their holding more than one view simultaneously. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 11:59:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB2B1543E for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:59:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA17428; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:58:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990312125429.03fa6530@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:58:47 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903121940.MAA23571@usr01.primenet.com> References: <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry: Thank you for posting that. I've read all of Guy Kawasaki's books, and believe that FreeBSD can benefit from his hard-won experience in product promotion. Again, I think that having a small group of "FreeBSD Daemons" (I've got to give my wife credit for coming up with the name, as obvious as it seems once one hears it) is a good thing. A bit of highly (perhaps overly) enthusiastic evangelism is fine, so long as it's not the ONLY approach and is properly managed and balanced. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 13:32:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5544314CD4 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:32:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24353; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:25:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: brett@lariat.org, dwilde1@thuntek.net, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:40:41 GMT." <199903121940.MAA23571@usr01.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:25:50 -0800 Message-ID: <24351.921273950@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Jordan, FreeBSD needs Brett, and as many people like Brett as possible. As Brett and I have already discussed in person, there seems to be room to draw very different conclusions from Guy's book than the one you guys are drawing. Where Mr. Kawasaki is referring to being "fanatical", I don't think he's talking about Rottweiler fanaticism where any exposed flesh gets a pair of fangs sunk into it, I think he's talking about hyping the product in a highly enthusiastic way. This is further born out by the kinds of press events I remember him being involved with back in the 80's. He didn't have people marching up and down in front of Microsoft going "Windows sucks! Bill is the anti-christ! Eat the rich! Long live Fidel Castro!" - that might have attracted a lot of press, but I don't think it was as effective as the people he had marching up and down extolling the VIRTUES of the Macintosh platform and how much easier it was to use. That's the point here - we're not Howard Stern and we're not going to make our mark by attack-advertising or telling people they're misguided, wrong and stupid for using the GPL. I guess I have to repeat this like a broken record since people just don't get it, it seems, but you win converts by explaining why you chose the BSD license and BSD technology, not by calling the other side a bunch of morons for making the choices they did. Perhaps Brett has never actually used the world "moron" in his various diatribes, but judging by the "audience reaction" that's certainly what people read between the lines and why I choose to take a much different tack. It's not anywhere near as easy to shoot down someone's arguments or dismiss him as a crank if he's just telling you what's good about his product vs what's bad about yours. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 14: 5: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E6614C1B for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:05:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-005.thuntek.net [207.66.52.5]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id PAA07442; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:04:34 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36E98F20.328001FF@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:03:12 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate References: <24351.921273950@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [snip] Keep the flag in your corner, Jordan. We don't need that kind of "enthusiasm". Many of us would disown FreeBSD if it were officially promoted in that fashion, because we feel THAT's the kind of poison that's wrong with the world. If that means FreeBSD will remain smaller than Linux or NT, well, so be it. It's big enough to thrive, and plenty big enough for we and thee. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 14:25: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34906154CD for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:25:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu ([132.170.240.30]:49467 "HELO pegasus.cc.ucf.edu" ident: "ewayte") by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu with SMTP id <316-5274>; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:20:54 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:20:47 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: Donald Wilde Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate In-Reply-To: <36E98F20.328001FF@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amen! This is one of the main reasons why I chose FreeBSD over Linux - just visit slashdot.org and you'll see what I mean. If FreeBSD always has a smaller market/mind share than Linux - just remember, small is beautiful. My $0.02. Eric Wayte Database Administrator University of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:03:12 -0700 > From: Donald Wilde > To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate > > [snip] > Keep the flag in your corner, Jordan. We don't need that kind of > "enthusiasm". Many of us would disown FreeBSD if it were officially > promoted in that fashion, because we feel THAT's the kind of poison > that's wrong with the world. If that means FreeBSD will remain smaller > than Linux or NT, well, so be it. It's big enough to thrive, and plenty > big enough for we and thee. > -- > oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * > o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ > V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] > /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 14:44:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5350B14C4E for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:44:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22558; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:28:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd022435; Fri Mar 12 16:28:08 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07170; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:43:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903122243.PAA07170@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:43:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, brett@lariat.org, dwilde1@thuntek.net, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <24351.921273950@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 12, 99 01:25:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Jordan, FreeBSD needs Brett, and as many people like Brett as possible. > > As Brett and I have already discussed in person, there seems to be > room to draw very different conclusions from Guy's book than the one > you guys are drawing. > > Where Mr. Kawasaki is referring to being "fanatical", I don't think > he's talking about Rottweiler fanaticism where any exposed flesh gets > a pair of fangs sunk into it, I think he's talking about hyping the > product in a highly enthusiastic way. I fully agree with this statement. The problem I see here is the interpretation being assigned to over-zealous evangelism by the people who aren't the evangelists. What you seem to be saying when you frame Brett as a fanatic, and my interpretation of Kawasaki's words as fitting into that same frame, is that we're talking about "attacking the competition". Unfortunately, my copy of "How To Drive Your Competition Crazy" is at home, or I could quote you chapter and verse about the error of fighting. As it is, if you understand anything about Aikido, a martial art in which the point is to stay in place and cause your opponent to move through your position rather than successfully attacking you, then you understand Kawasaki's opinion (and my opinion, since I've bought into his opinion). When you frame the issue adversarially, you create your adversary. > This is further born out by the kinds of press events I remember him > being involved with back in the 80's. He didn't have people marching > up and down in front of Microsoft going "Windows sucks! Bill is the > anti-christ! Eat the rich! Long live Fidel Castro!" - that might > have attracted a lot of press, but I don't think it was as effective > as the people he had marching up and down extolling the VIRTUES of the > Macintosh platform and how much easier it was to use. That's the > point here - we're not Howard Stern and we're not going to make our > mark by attack-advertising or telling people they're misguided, wrong > and stupid for using the GPL. Brett is adversarial to GPL supporters, yes. But he is not adversarial about the use of Linux or Microsoft products, at least from the writing I have seen. Brett's opinions on the GPL should really be irrelevent to you, as a FreeBSD advocate, no matter how he voices them. If it really bothers you, then treat it as if Brett has Tourette's syndrome when it comes to matters GPL. The important point (to you) is (or should be) his utility as a FreeBSD evangelist, not his (in)effectiveness as a GPL detractor. > I guess I have to repeat this like a broken record since people just > don't get it, it seems, but you win converts by explaining why you > chose the BSD license and BSD technology, not by calling the other > side a bunch of morons for making the choices they did. Perhaps Brett > has never actually used the world "moron" in his various diatribes, > but judging by the "audience reaction" that's certainly what people > read between the lines and why I choose to take a much different > tack. It's not anywhere near as easy to shoot down someone's arguments > or dismiss him as a crank if he's just telling you what's good about > his product vs what's bad about yours. By "vs", I assume you mean "instead of". I agree. Ignoring the competition is the best method of disenabling, rather than disenfranchising, their customers. The problem Brett is dealing with when he points out the consequential weaknesses of the GPL is that the GPL has a lot of uneducated zealots that you have to deal with. My personal deflection is to point them to a better GPL than the GPL, the Cygnus eCOS license (BTW, the Ricoh Open Source license is a near verbatim copy of that license). I also point them to a document that paints Stallman in a very bad light: the GNU manifesto. If God can do no wrong, then you have to kill your son when God tells you to do so as an act of faith -- take the bitter with the sweet. But if it's too bitter, your gag reflex triggers (didn't that Theodore Kazinsky guy have a manifesto, too?). If you make it about "us vs. you" instead of "you vs. them-not-us", then yes, it's going to backfire into you drawing lines that put people who are interested in what you have to sell on the other side of the line with people who are selling something similar that isn't yours. Unfortunately, most of the GPL advocacy that shows up on the -chat and -advocacy lists are the GPL equivalent of "The Citizens For True Freedom", who know GPL slander when they see it, and immediately turn it adversarial. The subscribe to these groups for precisely this occasion to sieze upon. The problem is that anything said against the GPL is taken as an "our license is better" argument, even if that's not the context in which the issue was raised. This is intentional social engineering by RMS, and in fact has been as ingrained into the GPL fanatics as a kata ingrains defenses or counter attacks into follow-throughs of reflex actions. Mention the GPL, and it's "Shields up, Mr. Sulu!" for most of that crowd. If Brett has a folley in this regard, it's buying into the diversion of the radical Stallmanites into the "You are saying yours is better!" by saying "Well, it is!", instead of "You've misunderstood me.". The best marketing is the internalized hidden assumption. "President Clinton meets with space aliens!"; the knee-jerk reaction? Deny the meeting, not the existance of space aliens. John Dyson is moving into the area of good non-GPL advocacy; I wish he'd pull the rug out from under them while pointing at the flying saucers a little more often, though. Telling Brett "No, you're wrong" without telling him *how*, is just as bad as Brett telling a GPL advocate "No, you're wrong" without telling them *how*, or social engineering the barriers to rational discussion away ("Sulu! What about those shields!?!". In any case, I believe that FreeBSD needs over-zealous people promoting it, and the more the better. FreeBSD needs someone insane enough to start a project to get the FreeBSD API ported to Linux and Solaris and UnixWare and Windows, to take that, and leverage the fact to get companies to commit to the single ABI (maybe even change the FreeBSD ABI to match one of the commercial UNIX implementations, instead); and that's just one example where only a fanatic will do. It is not enough for FreeBSD to be an also-ran, and anyone who is willing to fanatically carry that banner is a soldier in your army. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 14:56:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pcslink.com (pcslink.com [206.43.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47FC1545F for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:56:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ryan@pcslink.com) Received: (from ryan@localhost) by pcslink.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id PAA13162; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:53:24 -0700 (MST) From: Ryan Mooney Message-Id: <199903122253.PAA13162@pcslink.com> Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate In-Reply-To: <24351.921273950@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 12, 99 01:25:50 pm" To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:53:24 -0700 (MST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, brett@lariat.org, dwilde1@thuntek.net, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been working on a "how to be an advocate" site. Right now its REALLY rough (definitly incomplete, possibly wrong, certain to have errors, etc...). Anyway, in it I try to get across some of the points that I feel should be exemplified by *BSD advocates (and others to, but I don't care as much there :). Basically a set of guidelines for new advocates so that they can have some direction. Rev 0.01 was written on a slightly different focus, but as it expands I hope to make it something usefull. Rev 0.01 is online at: http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/advocate/ If anyone has points to add, send em, if anyone has criticisms to make... well I'm sure you will :) Jordan Hubbard said: > > I guess I have to repeat this like a broken record since people just > don't get it, it seems, but you win converts by explaining why you > chose the BSD license and BSD technology, not by calling the other > side a bunch of morons for making the choices they did. >-=-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-=-< Ryan Mooney Phone (602)265-9188 PCSLink ryan@pcslink.com Internet Services NT is an excellent choice for managers who need to show that they used up their fiscal year budget for hardware/software expenditures. <-=-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-=-> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 15: 4:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7700154D6 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:04:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-116.thuntek.net [207.66.52.116]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id QAA21861; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:04:19 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36E99D23.47FEFE9A@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:02:59 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate References: <199903122243.PAA07170@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > FreeBSD needs someone insane enough to start a project to get the > FreeBSD API ported to Linux and Solaris and UnixWare and Windows, > to take that, and leverage the fact to get companies to commit to > the single ABI (maybe even change the FreeBSD ABI to match one of > the commercial UNIX implementations, instead); and that's just one > example where only a fanatic will do. > Now _this_ kind of zealot I will help and support and cheer. Even better is one who's crazy enough to create another yahoo! for us to point to (and who can fund the sane publicity Jordan's after). Opening one's yap for endless stake-pounding at every opportunity, though, without producing anything useful, is a psychic energy drain for all the rest of us. I haven't loaded procmail, but there are times when I'm tempted... -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 15:22: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1BD14C30 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:22:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from quark.feynman.com (IDENT:fpawlak@obica-2-135.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.90.73]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id RAA14946; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:21:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by quark.feynman.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA01848; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:21:36 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:21:36 -0600 From: Frank Pawlak To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Treading on toes (was: O'Reilly article: Whence theSource: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate) Message-ID: <19990312172136.A1838@quark.feynman.com> References: <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <4.1.19990311204009.040aa890@localhost> <36E89512.C5C28863@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <36E89512.C5C28863@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Mar 11, 1999 at 09:16:18PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes, thanks for the flowers. I mean that in every sense of the word. I am touched. Here I thought that I was a major irritant through expressing my not so modest views. ;-) Now that I exposed myself, I promise that I won't mention guns or the disappearing middle class. < very big grin > > I certainly agree that is a problem; nobody here wants to turn away any > willing workers. I for one strongly regret the passing of Frank Pawlak > from this list shortly before the foundation of Daemon News, because I > think Frank would have contributed to it frequently and well. > I still read the mail-list but have decided to become inactive and observe events from arms length so to speak. This occurred after a major flame fest that got nasty. BTW, I am not trying to open old issues, as all is forgotten and forgiven at least on my part. In truth I have been doing a little with, dare I say, Linux. Please note that that is a demand driven profession situation. I really still run FBSD on my personal machine. Brett, I would suggest that you search the archives under my name to check out some of the ideas that I had for marketing FreeBSD. Not that they were good mind you, but you may learn a thing or two on how not to do things and why some of them never saw the light of day. I will omit the details here, well... nuff said. Marketing anything is an all-time job. All factors associated with FreeBSD need to be involved. That details out to Walnut Creek, Mr. Hubbard and any other parties presently concerned with promotion and distribution. Without buy-in and coordination with them you are fighting a loosing battle, IMHO. However, I urge you to try and you may have better results that I. I hope so, as FreeBSD needs it very bad, and now is the time. The commercial ports to Linux are exploding, and I'm not necessarily referring to user stuff. Business-to-business e-commerce is one area that comes to mind. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 15:40:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F55B153CF for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:40:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA19412; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:39:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990312162726.03ff1c40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:38:34 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903122243.PAA07170@usr08.primenet.com> References: <24351.921273950@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:43 PM 3/12/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >Brett is adversarial to GPL supporters, yes. But he is not adversarial >about the use of Linux or Microsoft products, at least from the writing >I have seen. This is true. I believe that the fact that Linux is licensed under the GPL is an unfortunate historical accident about which even Linus may now be having second thoughts. His comments at LinuxWorld suggested this. >Brett's opinions on the GPL should really be irrelevent to you, as a >FreeBSD advocate, no matter how he voices them. If it really bothers >you, then treat it as if Brett has Tourette's syndrome when it comes >to matters GPL. Really, Terry, it's not as if I spontaneously shout curses or anything. I've always been careful to voice thoughtful arguments about the subject. The trouble seems to be that the hair-trigger GPL zealots immediately shout curses whenever they hear ANYTHING unflattering about the Holy Writ. ;-) >The problem Brett is dealing with when he points out the consequential >weaknesses of the GPL is that the GPL has a lot of uneducated zealots >that you have to deal with. Absolutely. Even some people like Jamie Love, of Ralph Nader's organization, have an irrational attachment to the GPL. Even though it is arguably anti-consumer. I must admit that I'm puzzled by this behavior. >My personal deflection is to point them to a better GPL than the GPL, >the Cygnus eCOS license (BTW, the Ricoh Open Source license is a >near verbatim copy of that license). I also point them to a document >that paints Stallman in a very bad light: the GNU manifesto. If God >can do no wrong, then you have to kill your son when God tells you >to do so as an act of faith -- take the bitter with the sweet. But >if it's too bitter, your gag reflex triggers (didn't that Theodore >Kazinsky guy have a manifesto, too?). Yes, he did. And threatened to do more bombing if it wasn't published in newspapers, as I recall. >The problem is that anything said against the GPL is taken as an >"our license is better" argument, even if that's not the context in >which the issue was raised. This is intentional social engineering >by RMS, and in fact has been as ingrained into the GPL fanatics as >a kata ingrains defenses or counter attacks into follow-throughs of >reflex actions. Mention the GPL, and it's "Shields up, Mr. Sulu!" >for most of that crowd. > >If Brett has a folley in this regard, it's buying into the diversion >of the radical Stallmanites into the "You are saying yours is better!" >by saying "Well, it is!", instead of "You've misunderstood me.". Well, I think that even Jordan has misunderstood me here, so I guess misunderstandings are common when it comes to these issues. What can we do about this? >John Dyson is moving into the area of good non-GPL advocacy; I wish >he'd pull the rug out from under them while pointing at the flying >saucers a little more often, though. Perhaps John Dyson could be appointed the spokesperson on licensing matters, if he's willing. (He's doing it already.) >In any case, I believe that FreeBSD needs over-zealous people promoting >it, and the more the better. Agreed. >FreeBSD needs someone insane enough to start a project to get the >FreeBSD API ported to Linux and Solaris and UnixWare and Windows, >to take that, and leverage the fact to get companies to commit to >the single ABI (maybe even change the FreeBSD ABI to match one of >the commercial UNIX implementations, instead); and that's just one >example where only a fanatic will do. Trouble is, Linux is the dominant ABI these days! Adapting FreeBSD to that is basically abdicating control of the direction of the product. >It is not enough for FreeBSD to be an also-ran, and anyone who is >willing to fanatically carry that banner is a soldier in your army. Agreed. But first we need to convince Jordan that I'm not a TOTAL raving loony. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 15:40:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6E114F78 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA19408; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:39:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990312161356.00cb39c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:26:23 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <24351.921273950@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:25 PM 3/12/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Where Mr. Kawasaki is referring to being "fanatical", I don't think >he's talking about Rottweiler fanaticism where any exposed flesh gets >a pair of fangs sunk into it, Neither do I, Jordan! You seem to be misinterpreting what I have in mind, possibly because you've seen some of my somewhat strident messages about the GPL. The threat posed by the GPL is a different issue from that of advocacy for FreeBSD (though there is naturally a connection between the two in that FreeBSD has the better license). >I think he's talking about hyping the product in a highly >enthusiastic way. And so am I. >This is further born out by the kinds of press events I remember him >being involved with back in the 80's. He didn't have people marching >up and down in front of Microsoft going "Windows sucks! Bill is the >anti-christ! Eat the rich! Long live Fidel Castro!" - Funny, but that's exactly the approach that Richard Stallman uses. And he got several standing ovations at LinuxWorld immediately after making such remarks. >that might >have attracted a lot of press, but I don't think it was as effective >as the people he had marching up and down extolling the VIRTUES of the >Macintosh platform and how much easier it was to use. That's the >point here - we're not Howard Stern and we're not going to make our >mark by attack-advertising or telling people they're misguided, wrong >and stupid for using the GPL. The degree to which one can point out the disadvantages of the competition seems to depend on who the competition is. No one said that the Linux zealots were out of line even though they went as far as bashing Microsoft at their "Windows Refund Day" event. I think that pointing out the competition's weaknesses CAN be done under the right circumstances, though I agree with your exhortations to "accentuate the positive." >I guess I have to repeat this like a broken record since people just >don't get it, it seems, but you win converts by explaining why you >chose the BSD license and BSD technology, not by calling the other >side a bunch of morons for making the choices they did. Who says I "don't get it?" Again, I think you're reading something different than what I intended into what I'm saying. (I happen to agree that calling people morons does little good.) >Perhaps Brett >has never actually used the world "moron" in his various diatribes, >but judging by the "audience reaction" that's certainly what people >read between the lines Only a few vociferous zealots have done so. And to some extent, I think they're overreacting on purpose. >and why I choose to take a much different >tack. It's not anywhere near as easy to shoot down someone's arguments >or dismiss him as a crank if he's just telling you what's good about >his product vs what's bad about yours. True. However, in order to compare and contrast the products, one still must mention the competition's weaknesses. I think it's a matter of approach. This is why I'm proposing that people who are good at taking different approaches be organized into teams which are then coordinated to assure the most positive results. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 16:11: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from confusion.skinner.org (confusion.skinner.org [209.3.31.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605B614DE6 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from skinner@skinner.org) Received: from confusion.skinner.org (skinner@confusion.skinner.org [209.3.31.16]) by confusion.skinner.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA09355; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:17:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from skinner@skinner.org) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:17:21 -0500 (EST) From: S K I N N E R To: Donald Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate In-Reply-To: <36E98F20.328001FF@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: :)that's wrong with the world. If that means FreeBSD will remain smaller :)than Linux or NT, well, so be it. It's big enough to thrive, and plenty :)big enough for we and thee. See that is one of the key issues. Granted Linux and MS Platforms have a larger user base and are more widley known. But as seen with Windows being widley known and used doesnt mean that it is the best product. As "small" as freebsd has been it still continues to be just as good if not better in some aspects. As long as the current user base stays strong more people will come over if they see or when they see that FreeBSD offers them what they want in a more stable envrionement. Its hard to re-direct the Sheep once they are on a bandwagon of some sort. Who knows linux might become better it might not. The energry should be spent on making FreeBSD better then it already is and from there and market quality not hype. ******************************************************************** Robert Skinner skinner{at}skinner[dot]org -------------------------------------------------------------------- Skinner's Personal Ego http://www.skinner.org ******************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 16:15:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C8C14D96 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:15:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-116.thuntek.net [207.66.52.116]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id RAA09183; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:14:45 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36E9ADA7.AF857EA7@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:13:27 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: S K I N N E R Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG S K I N N E R wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > > :)that's wrong with the world. If that means FreeBSD will remain smaller > :)than Linux or NT, well, so be it. It's big enough to thrive, and plenty > :)big enough for we and thee. > > See that is one of the key issues. Granted Linux and MS > Platforms have a larger user base and are more widley known. > But as seen with Windows being widley known and used doesnt > mean that it is the best product. As "small" as freebsd has > been it still continues to be just as good if not better in > some aspects. As long as the current user base stays strong > more people will come over if they see or when they see that > FreeBSD offers them what they want in a more stable > envrionement. Its hard to re-direct the Sheep once they are > on a bandwagon of some sort. Who knows linux might become > better it might not. The energry should be spent on making > FreeBSD better then it already is and from there and market > quality not hype. > my point exactly. Thanks for chiming in! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 16:24:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E47214E0F for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:24:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10272; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:24:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd010231; Fri Mar 12 17:23:58 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23082; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:23:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903130023.RAA23082@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate To: ryan@pcslink.com (Ryan Mooney) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:23:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, tlambert@primenet.com, brett@lariat.org, dwilde1@thuntek.net, wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903122253.PAA13162@pcslink.com> from "Ryan Mooney" at Mar 12, 99 03:53:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I've been working on a "how to be an advocate" site. Right now > its REALLY rough (definitly incomplete, possibly wrong, certain to > have errors, etc...). Anyway, in it I try to get across some of > the points that I feel should be exemplified by *BSD advocates > (and others to, but I don't care as much there :). Basically > a set of guidelines for new advocates so that they can have some > direction. Rev 0.01 was written on a slightly different > focus, but as it expands I hope to make it something usefull. > Rev 0.01 is online at: http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/advocate/ > If anyone has points to add, send em, if anyone has criticisms > to make... well I'm sure you will :) You should link to the Resource Marketing portfolio page: http://www.resource.com/work/index.html Probably also: http://www.garage.com/resources/howToLinkToRFR.shtml And: http://www.garage.com/wiseGuyReading.shtml Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 16:59:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D087614CCD for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:59:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA27174; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:29:23 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA06398; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:29:21 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990313112920.O429@lemis.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:29:20 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate References: <24351.921273950@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990312161356.00cb39c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990312161356.00cb39c0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Mar 12, 1999 at 04:26:23PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 12 March 1999 at 16:26:23 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:25 PM 3/12/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> Where Mr. Kawasaki is referring to being "fanatical", I don't think >> he's talking about Rottweiler fanaticism where any exposed flesh gets >> a pair of fangs sunk into it, > > Neither do I, Jordan! You seem to be misinterpreting what I have in > mind, possibly because you've seen some of my somewhat strident > messages about the GPL. That's possible. I hope you're right and Jordan is wrong, but I've certainly been interpreting things in exactly the way Jordan has been doing, and I'm sure a lot of the Linux crowd has been too. > The threat posed by the GPL is a different issue from that of > advocacy for FreeBSD (though there is naturally a connection between > the two in that FreeBSD has the better license). Correct. But consider that, if you hype FreeBSD on one occasion and put down the GPL on another, people are going to draw a connection between your perception of the issues. This would not be good for FreeBSD. >> I think he's talking about hyping the product in a highly >> enthusiastic way. > > And so am I. I think your enthusiasm shows some of the characteristics of a Rottweiler, and your response to my criticism yesterday didn't look overly introspective. >> This is further born out by the kinds of press events I remember him >> being involved with back in the 80's. He didn't have people marching >> up and down in front of Microsoft going "Windows sucks! Bill is the >> anti-christ! Eat the rich! Long live Fidel Castro!" - > > Funny, but that's exactly the approach that Richard Stallman uses. > And he got several standing ovations at LinuxWorld immediately > after making such remarks. I don't see the FreeBSD crowd giving him standing ovations. He's an insider in the Linux world, you're making a point of being an outsider. I don't think we need a Stallman. >> that might have attracted a lot of press, but I don't think it was >> as effective as the people he had marching up and down extolling >> the VIRTUES of the Macintosh platform and how much easier it was to >> use. That's the point here - we're not Howard Stern and we're not >> going to make our mark by attack-advertising or telling people >> they're misguided, wrong and stupid for using the GPL. > > The degree to which one can point out the disadvantages of the > competition seems to depend on who the competition is. No one > said that the Linux zealots were out of line even though they > went as far as bashing Microsoft at their "Windows Refund Day" > event. I think that pointing out the competition's weaknesses > CAN be done under the right circumstances, though I agree with > your exhortations to "accentuate the positive." For you, are the Linux people competition or potential allies? >> I guess I have to repeat this like a broken record since people just >> don't get it, it seems, but you win converts by explaining why you >> chose the BSD license and BSD technology, not by calling the other >> side a bunch of morons for making the choices they did. > > Who says I "don't get it?" Again, I think you're reading something > different than what I intended into what I'm saying. He may be, but a lot of people are doing it. I'm sure you mean well for FreeBSD, but as my particular broken record keeps saying, the way people understand what you say puts them off. If a large minority do so, the result is negative for FreeBSD, no matter how good your intentions may be. >> Perhaps Brett has never actually used the world "moron" in his >> various diatribes, but judging by the "audience reaction" that's >> certainly what people read between the lines > > Only a few vociferous zealots have done so. And to some extent, I > think they're overreacting on purpose. I disagree strongly. You say that Jordan and I have misinterpreted what you say. Do you think we're vociferous zealots who over-react on purpose? >> and why I choose to take a much different tack. It's not anywhere >> near as easy to shoot down someone's arguments or dismiss him as a >> crank if he's just telling you what's good about his product vs >> what's bad about yours. > > True. However, in order to compare and contrast the products, one > still must mention the competition's weaknesses. No, this isn't necessary, and in many countries it's illegal. > I think it's a matter of approach. Indeed. It's your approach that concerns us. > This is why I'm proposing that people who are good at taking > different approaches be organized into teams which are then > coordinated to assure the most positive results. My concern is still that you appear too inflexible in your approach. Put you in a team with, say, two others and we'll end up with three people preaching the Gospel according to Brett. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 17:11:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D77153CF for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29630; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:11:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd029608; Fri Mar 12 18:11:11 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA26427; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:11:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903130111.SAA26427@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:11:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990312162726.03ff1c40@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 12, 99 04:38:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG A response to Brett's questions about: 1) GPL related misunderstandings 2) The Linux ABI vs. zealous advocacy of FreeBSD The second is, IMO, the most interesting read. > >If Brett has a folley in this regard, it's buying into the diversion > >of the radical Stallmanites into the "You are saying yours is better!" > >by saying "Well, it is!", instead of "You've misunderstood me.". > > Well, I think that even Jordan has misunderstood me here, so I guess > misunderstandings are common when it comes to these issues. What > can we do about this? Deflect them. If they examine their license critically against another license that better espouses their philosophy, their reason for buy-in to the GPL in the first place, then the GPL has lost. That's why I point at the eCOS license. As an instrumentality of the GNU Manifesto, it is a profoundly superior document to the GPL. [ always capitalize "Manifesto" to draw attention to the word ] Once converted on the courage of their own convictions, the GPL quickly sours in their mouth. Then the problem with advocating the eCOS license becomes visible: there's really no sexy work going on the engender zealotry under that license. What you are left with is a free software advocate, stripped of his allegiance to the GPL as a route for getting free software. Now they are looking at the flying saucers. When that happens, you go for the rug: now that they are looking elsewhere for their philosophical satisfaction: Tell you about the UCB license? Sure. From each programmer, according to their ability, there is a pool of software generated. From this pool, according to their technology needs, people or companies can take the software and deploy it. When they do that, it raises the bar for everyone, and makes the world better for everyone. Cleverly playing into the Marxist doctorine underlying the GNU Manifesto (a Marxist is a Marxist, and you would do better to try to retrain wolves to eat grass instead of sheep than to try to change that; such change only comes with a 28% or higher tax bracket). Then you shoot down their primary anti-UCB themes one by one. I can give you the distilled themes and the canned counter-arguments, with real-world examples, if you want. > >FreeBSD needs someone insane enough to start a project to get the > >FreeBSD API ported to Linux and Solaris and UnixWare and Windows, > >to take that, and leverage the fact to get companies to commit to > >the single ABI (maybe even change the FreeBSD ABI to match one of > >the commercial UNIX implementations, instead); and that's just one > >example where only a fanatic will do. > > Trouble is, Linux is the dominant ABI these days! Adapting FreeBSD > to that is basically abdicating control of the direction of the > product. Which is why you adapt Linux (and others) to run FreeBSD software. If you give Linux control of your ABI for all commerical software, they'll take it. And frankly, they just aren't that good at writing structured software that they won't make a mess of it. Going down the Linux emulation corridor was a big mistake for FreeBSD, IMO, and it marks a sea-change that will be hard but not impossible to undo. I was having this discussion (the discussion was wearing a different hat) with someone the other day. The question before the court was the value of compilation of JAVA to native code to get around the fact that JAVA is Just Too Damn Slow To Be Useful(tm). The outcome hinged on the answer to the related question, which is that if you compile it to native code, stripping off the cloak of Write Once, Run Anywhere(tm), what clothes, other than that cloak, did the emperor have on? The answer is that the value of JAVA is not in the structure (C++ has multiple inheritance and templates), nor in the half a dozen other points that compiled languages have over languages that have to be declarative to run in an interpreter. It's the cross-platform API. The cross-platform ABI was nice, but it wasn't the killer product for JAVA, because -- say it with me -- JAVA is Just Too Damn Slow To Be Useful(tm)... until you pull the cloak off. I think maybe I need to dust off my FABIO proposal again, and this time give it some teeth. The basic idea is that you can turn off all non-FABIO features in a level-1 compliant OS, program to that, and run the code on all other level-1 and level-2 compliant OS's (level-2 compliance is "supports the ABI, but doesn't let you turn off OS specific features"). Declare one (or more, if you can) commercial UNIX platforms to be level-2 compliant, and implement such ABI as necessary. Implement for Windows 95/98/NT/2000 if you can find someone clever enough to crack that nut; I'll tell you right now that 98 uses a class loader to load .EXE's, and it gets it from a registry lookup, so the hooks are there (don't believe me? Run a registry watcher, and fire up a windows program). Can anyone tell me what kind of moron would write native code on anything but a level-1 compliant platform? Writing on anything else would portentially restrict your available market: the same reason people develop applications for WIN32 instead of UNIX right now. Imagine if everyone in the Solaris Software Directory switched to FreeBSD as a developement platform because it guaranteed, since it was level-1 compliant, that the resulting code would run on the level-2 compliant FABIO platforms of Solaris, UnixWare, Linux, and anything else for which the team was willing to write level-2 ABI emulation... because they wanted to zealously promote FreeBSD. Now imagine that every UNIX platform had the same ABI, for a given processor type. Now imagine you're president of a software company, and you are no longer looking at a fragmented porting nightmare. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 19:28:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BD2514C19 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:28:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: (from jkh@localhost) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA27624 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:28:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:28:39 -0800 (PST) From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Message-Id: <199903130328.TAA27624@zippy.cdrom.com> To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.intrastar.net/~karen/special/ad.jpg But Brett was looking for more aggressive advocacy, wasn't he? :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 19:39:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D54714F63 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:39:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA27812; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:09:25 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA06769; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:09:25 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990313140924.W429@lemis.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:09:24 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <199903130328.TAA27624@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199903130328.TAA27624@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Mar 12, 1999 at 07:28:39PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 12 March 1999 at 19:28:39 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > http://www.intrastar.net/~karen/special/ad.jpg > > But Brett was looking for more aggressive advocacy, wasn't he? :-) Interesting, but not as interesting as the other images in that directory :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 19:43:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF7E14D6D for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:43:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id TAA00167; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:43:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19990312194314.A27667@best.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:43:14 -0800 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <199903130328.TAA27624@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199903130328.TAA27624@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Mar 12, 1999 at 07:28:39PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 12, 1999 at 07:28:39PM -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > http://www.intrastar.net/~karen/special/ad.jpg > > But Brett was looking for more aggressive advocacy, wasn't he? :-) > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message While we there: http://www.intrastar.net/~karen/special/jkh_fro.jpg [sorry jordan, couldn't resist] -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 19:44:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7359D14D6D for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:44:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA04696; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:43:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36E9DEEF.6B33EE26@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:43:43 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <199903130328.TAA27624@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > http://www.intrastar.net/~karen/special/ad.jpg Yow! Use me, abuse me, make me fix bad code! ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 19:44:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4A914C19 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:44:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27769; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:09:24 +1030." <19990313140924.W429@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:45:08 -0800 Message-ID: <27767.921296708@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Interesting, but not as interesting as the other images in that > directory :-) Ah, yes, Karen has taken images of all of us and afro'd them for reasons best known to herself (though I just about laughed up several major organs when I saw them). Careful, Greg, I seem to recall that your image is also on the net somewhere... ;-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 19:54:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B5514CE9 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:54:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA21376; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:53:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990312205306.03fcc4f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:53:45 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-Reply-To: <199903130328.TAA27624@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ROFL! A daemonatrix! ;-) --Brett At 07:28 PM 3/12/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >http://www.intrastar.net/~karen/special/ad.jpg > >But Brett was looking for more aggressive advocacy, wasn't he? :-) > >- Jordan > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 21:11:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B47314E2C for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:11:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04845; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:10:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36E9F351.B782DFAC@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:10:41 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Donald Wilde , Greg Lehey , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Non-BG thread" indeed. Hmph. References: <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <19990312124152.Y490@lemis.com> <4.1.19990312105647.00cb8e00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > As far as I know, I'm the only person who is actively seeking to > educate businesses about the intent and deleterious effects > of the GPL. Well, if this isn't the most self-serving bunch of hogwash splashed across this group in months. In case you hadn't noticed, Brett, this is the FreeBSD-Advocacy group, not the BrettGlass-Advocacy group. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 22: 8:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4701A14D90 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:08:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA04973; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:06:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36EA0074.5E19C267@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:06:44 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the OpenSource/Free Software Debate References: <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990312125429.03fa6530@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > Terry: > > Thank you for posting that. I've read all of Guy Kawasaki's books, and > believe that FreeBSD can benefit from his hard-won experience in > product promotion. > > Again, I think that having a small group of "FreeBSD Daemons" (I've got > to give my wife credit for coming up with the name, as obvious as it > seems once one hears it) is a good thing. A bit of highly (perhaps > overly) enthusiastic evangelism is fine, so long as it's not the ONLY > approach and is properly managed and balanced. Too bad Apple never managed to strike that balance. They've just about become a sideshow now, thanks to management by egomania. Tog leaving the was the sign of the beginning of the end; Jobs has the will to make "insanely great products" but he just doesn't have the vision. He also has enough ego to never let him admit he doesn't have the vision. Guy Kawasaki was simply the James Carville of the computer industry. Both remind me of a small dog that won't stop barking. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 12 22:11:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from m4.stox.sa.enteract.com (stox.sa.enteract.com [207.229.132.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649FC14C24 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:11:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@stox.sa.enteract.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.stox.sa.enteract.com [127.0.0.1]) by m4.stox.sa.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA03365; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:09:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:09:39 -0600 (CST) From: "Kenneth P. Stox" Reply-To: stox@enteract.com To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-Reply-To: <27767.921296708@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Geez, I guess you'z guys are famous now! Maybe you can back up George Clinton the next time he is in town. On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Interesting, but not as interesting as the other images in that > > directory :-) > > Ah, yes, Karen has taken images of all of us and afro'd them for > reasons best known to herself (though I just about laughed up several > major organs when I saw them). Careful, Greg, I seem to recall > that your image is also on the net somewhere... ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 0:45:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 966F314E52 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:45:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 1626 invoked from network); 13 Mar 1999 08:45:17 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 13 Mar 1999 08:45:17 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id DAA01236; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 03:45:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903130845.DAA01236@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the OpenSource/Free Software Debate In-Reply-To: <36EA0074.5E19C267@softweyr.com> from Wes Peters at "Mar 12, 99 11:06:44 pm" To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 03:45:15 -0500 (EST) Cc: brett@lariat.org, tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters said: > > Guy Kawasaki was simply the James Carville of the computer industry. > Both remind me of a small dog that won't stop barking. > Even though Carville is a parody of himself, the biggest problem with Carville is the product that he is pushing. His total lack of credibility isn't due to his irritating style, but the advocacy positions that he takes. If Carville was pushing a good product, he would be just a silly and entertaining eccentric taking up valuable air time. Since he appears to be pushing a sadly defective and somewhat malicious product, then he appears (to me) to be a silly, foolish, irritating, and "borderline" eccentric. It really doesn't make any sense to compare Carville advocating Clinton with XXX advocating FreeBSD. There is absolutely no basis to compare those two situations. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 1:13: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 27CD214C24 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 01:12:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 7770 invoked from network); 13 Mar 1999 09:12:39 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 13 Mar 1999 09:12:39 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id EAA01252; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 04:12:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903130912.EAA01252@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990312162726.03ff1c40@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Mar 12, 99 04:38:34 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 04:12:38 -0500 (EST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass said: > > >John Dyson is moving into the area of good non-GPL advocacy; I wish > >he'd pull the rug out from under them while pointing at the flying > >saucers a little more often, though. > > Perhaps John Dyson could be appointed the spokesperson on licensing > matters, if he's willing. (He's doing it already.) > No way. What we really need is a carefully constructed research paper on the various licensing terms, and the ramifications of each. I am not the right person to do that. After the creation of that paper, then we need to accumlate the text of each license, and create a magazine article, using the research paper and the license text (properly credited) as source material. The mag article would talk about the various aspects of software licensing in what is the traditional "free software" world. For example, a table would be created, describing in short and clear terms the freedoms (I hate that word) and limitations for each person in the foodchain, given several kinds license. The key to understanding the licenses is to be able to picture the flows of source code, binary, money, etc for each person in the pipeline. Also, it needs to be clarified what the predominant modes of profit are with each form of license, the ownership and control issues, and the relicensing issues. This would be an interesting undertaking, and I would be willing to provide information for some of a mag article, but am not willing (or able) to write it. I suspect that spending a few hours with a draw package, I could produce some interesting info about some of the licenses. (BTW, this wouldn't necessarily be PRO-BSDL, but would inform so that the right choice for a given situation could be made.) My whole thing about licenses isn't that any one license is the "right" one, but that people must make informed choices. It is a responsibility of those who have influence to provide information for the choices. The problem with this license thing is that there are too few people with that responsibility associated with noteriety, who are being open and straightforward enough to do proper justice to their userbase. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 6:25:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F272D14BEE for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 06:25:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA25964; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:24:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990313072013.04020ba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:24:46 -0700 To: dyson@iquest.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903130912.EAA01252@y.dyson.net> References: <4.1.19990312162726.03ff1c40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:12 AM 3/13/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >What we really need is a carefully constructed research paper on >the various licensing terms, and the ramifications of each. I am >not the right person to do that. Maybe not alone. But you have made a lot of good points on the subject. Would you be willing to contribute? >After the creation of that paper, then we need to accumlate the >text of each license, and create a magazine article, using the >research paper and the license text (properly credited) as source >material. > >The mag article would talk about the various aspects of software >licensing in what is the traditional "free software" world. For >example, a table would be created, describing in short and clear >terms the freedoms (I hate that word) and limitations for each >person in the foodchain, given several kinds license. I agree. In particular, the developer's perspective and the user's perspective are significant. The developer needs to understand why he loses under the GPL, and the consumer needs to recognize that it forecloses commerical options and therefore deprives him/her of choice. >The key to understanding the licenses is to be able to picture the >flows of source code, binary, money, etc for each person in the >pipeline. Also, it needs to be clarified what the predominant >modes of profit are with each form of license, the ownership and >control issues, and the relicensing issues. Agreed. >This would be an interesting undertaking, and I would be willing >to provide information for some of a mag article, but am not >willing (or able) to write it. I suspect that spending a few >hours with a draw package, I could produce some interesting info >about some of the licenses. (BTW, this wouldn't necessarily be >PRO-BSDL, but would inform so that the right choice for a given >situation could be made.) Sounds good. What sorts of graphics do you have in mind? Tables? Charts? >My whole thing about licenses isn't that any one license is the >"right" one, but that people must make informed choices. It is >a responsibility of those who have influence to provide information >for the choices. The problem with this license thing is that >there are too few people with that responsibility associated >with noteriety, who are being open and straightforward enough to >do proper justice to their userbase. Exactly. If anything, the major players (Stallman, ESR) are actually being disingenuous about their goals when they appear in public. However, their writings do express (betray?) their true intentions and can be quoted in such a paper.... --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 6:25:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E8414C0F for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 06:25:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA25955; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:24:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990313071632.04021910@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:17:32 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Non-BG thread" indeed. Hmph. Cc: Donald Wilde , Greg Lehey , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36E9F351.B782DFAC@softweyr.com> References: <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990311140839.00b25250@localhost> <19990312124152.Y490@lemis.com> <4.1.19990312105647.00cb8e00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:10 PM 3/12/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >Well, if this isn't the most self-serving bunch of hogwash splashed >across this group in months. In case you hadn't noticed, Brett, >this is the FreeBSD-Advocacy group, not the BrettGlass-Advocacy >group. Your point being? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 6:25:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1FF14CF0 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 06:25:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA25958; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:24:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990313071753.04020390@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:19:02 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the OpenSource/Free Software Debate Cc: Terry Lambert , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36EA0074.5E19C267@softweyr.com> References: <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990312125429.03fa6530@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:06 PM 3/12/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >Too bad Apple never managed to strike that balance. They've just >about become a sideshow now, thanks to management by egomania. Their management strategy is absurd. Too bad that even their brilliant PR (and it is brilliant at times) can't make up for that. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 8: 6:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A9014E66 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:06:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id IAA44785; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:05:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:05:37 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: Brett Glass , tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Message-ID: <19990313080537.B44604@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <4.1.19990312162726.03ff1c40@localhost> <199903130912.EAA01252@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199903130912.EAA01252@y.dyson.net>; from John S. Dyson on Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 04:12:38AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 04:12:38AM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > Brett Glass said: > > > > >John Dyson is moving into the area of good non-GPL advocacy; I wish > > >he'd pull the rug out from under them while pointing at the flying > > >saucers a little more often, though. > > > > Perhaps John Dyson could be appointed the spokesperson on licensing > > matters, if he's willing. (He's doing it already.) > > > No way. > > What we really need is a carefully constructed research paper on > the various licensing terms, and the ramifications of each. I am > not the right person to do that. > [ DELETED ] John makes a very good point here. I am frequently amazed that people thrash back and forth over GPL vs. BSD licensing without having a clear understanding of what these licenses really mean. John Dyson and Brett Glass are both intelligent and clever people but that are not lawyers and specifically not intellectual property lawyers. One thing that we need to keep in mind is the law has its' own logic which often has no relationship with day to day reality. Another point to keep in mind is that the entire GPL and BSD license issues can be rendered moot by a large corporation willing to spend the money on lawyers. If, to randomly pull a large corporate name out of the air, General Electric was using GPL tools to manufacture product and was not living up to the specifics of GPL, according to Stallman, by not shipping source code with the product, there is little Stallman, the FSF, and Linux fanatics, etc. could do about it. GE could just bury Stallman and the FSF in legal expenses. GE probably has legal department of over 1000 people including several hundred lawyers and para-legals. Getting back to Johns point. A research paper is a very good idea but in writing this paper the author needs to consultant with competent legal authority for a clear understanding of subtleties and nuances of these 2 licenses. This kind of advice will not come cheap. A cousin of mine is an intellectual property lawyers in San Francisco. He gets $250.00 per hour and his billing rate in the middle of the scale. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 8:22:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494BB14CCE for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:21:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA26724; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:20:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990313091044.04021790@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:20:50 -0700 To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, "John S. Dyson" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990313080537.B44604@ontario.mooseriver.com> References: <199903130912.EAA01252@y.dyson.net> <4.1.19990312162726.03ff1c40@localhost> <199903130912.EAA01252@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:05 AM 3/13/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >I am frequently amazed that people thrash back and forth over GPL vs. BSD >licensing without having a clear understanding of what these licenses really >mean. John Dyson and Brett Glass are both intelligent and clever people but >that are not lawyers and specifically not intellectual property lawyers. One >thing that we need to keep in mind is the law has its' own logic which >often has no relationship with day to day reality. True. Not long ago, I consulted a few intellectual property lawyers to get their opinions of what's going on. The consensus opinion was that while the BSD license is simple and quite clear, the enforceability of the GPL is in question because it is so unconventional and there is no case law. One of them suggested that "copyleft," because it's designed to subvert the intent of copyright law as defined in the Constitution, may not be legally valid at all. >Another point to keep in mind is that the entire GPL and BSD license issues >can be rendered moot by a large corporation willing to spend the money on >lawyers. If, to randomly pull a large corporate name out of the air, >General Electric was using GPL tools to manufacture product and was not >living up to the specifics of GPL, according to Stallman, by not shipping >source code with the product, there is little Stallman, the FSF, and Linux >fanatics, etc. could do about it. GE could just bury Stallman and the FSF >in legal expenses. GE probably has legal department of over 1000 people >including several hundred lawyers and para-legals. Not only that, but the GPL is easily subverted via "clean room" reverse engineering. This technique has stood up even to IBM's vast resources (that's why we have IBM PC clones). All of the lawyers I consulted agreed that this is a vaid way to "liberate" code from the GPL. >Getting back to Johns point. A research paper is a very good idea but in >writing this paper the author needs to consultant with competent legal >authority for a clear understanding of subtleties and nuances of these 2 >licenses. This kind of advice will not come cheap. A cousin of mine is an >intellectual property lawyers in San Francisco. He gets $250.00 per hour >and his billing rate in the middle of the scale. Not every point requires consultation with a lawyer. And one great way to have a paper reviewed is to submit it to a law school CLASS for a critique. They'll gladly pick it to bits, advancing all sorts of conventional and unconventional legal theories. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 9:43:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48B4A14D39 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:43:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA091484910; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:08:30 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:08:30 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-Reply-To: <19990313140924.W429@lemis.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > Interesting, but not as interesting as the other images in that > directory :-) Just another example of what hanging around #FreeBSD for too long does to a person. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 14:15:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A24714D9E for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:15:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03524; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:15:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd003507; Sat Mar 13 15:15:15 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21748; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:15:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903132215.PAA21748@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: FAQ: debunking UCB (BSD) license objections To: sprice@hiwaay.net (Steve Price) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:15:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Steve Price" at Mar 12, 99 11:21:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, enough people have asked for this that I'm sending it out. > # Deflect them. If they examine their license critically against > # another license that better espouses their philosophy, their reason > # for buy-in to the GPL in the first place, then the GPL has lost. > # > # That's why I point at the eCOS license. As an instrumentality of > # the GNU Manifesto, it is a profoundly superior document to the GPL. Q1. What is the URL for the eCOS license? http://www.cygnus.com/ecos/ecoslicense.html > # Then you shoot down their primary anti-UCB themes one by one. I > # can give you the distilled themes and the canned counter-arguments, > # with real-world examples, if you want. Q2. I want a copy of the distilled themes list for ; can you send it to me? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ A brief FAQ debunking common objections to the UCB (BSD) license Author: Terry Lambert Date: 13 March 199 Version: 1.0 Q) What about the ``obnoxious BSD advertising clause''? People say it "leads to a kind of gridlock for advertising free software". A) This is actually a "claim credit" clause. It's intended to ensure that authors are given credit for their work. It reads as follows: 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: This product includes software developed by the University of California, Berkeley and its contributors. This supposedly results in a "plethora" of different people you "have to" acknowledge when advertising the software. This is false. The important part is "mentioning features or use of this software". If your advertising doesn't say something like: Uses a terrific new scheduling algorithm! or: New! Now with BSD Net/2 TCP/IP! ("features" or "use"), then you are off the hook, and don't have to put the notices anywhere but appendix X of your documentation, and you can use agregation, to print the license in total once (substituting "DEVELOPERS"), and a list of the people, institutions, or corporations who are DEVELOPERS. Q) But can't people take my code and make it proprietary? A) No. They can only make proprietary _derivative works_. Your code is your code, and remains your code. Generally, there is some proprietary derivation going on, but unless your code did something unique (like SAMBA), even if your code was under one of the "copyleft" type licenses, it would be very hard for you to prove. This has happened to SAMBA several times in the past, and it's only the unique nature of SAMBA that allowed the SAMBA people to become suspicious. Generally, if someone uses your code once it's published, you'll probably never know about it, unless whoever uses it also publishes. Q) But why would a greedy company ever contribute changes back under _any_ circumstances? A) You just said it: because they're _greedy_. Companies are run by people. These are either relatively smart people, or the company doesn't stay in business very long. Here is how contributing code back to an open source project can be greedy: 1) By contributing the code back, the ongoing maintenance costs associated with keeping the code running and fixing bugs can be paid by the open source project, instead of your company. 2) By contributing back changes which are tactically important for your business, you get rid of the ongoing maintenance burden of reintegrating them each time the open source project makes a new release. This yields a big competitive advantage against anyone else who is also using the source to do the same things you are, but isn't giving their changes back. 3) By contributing back changes which are tactically important for your business, you are buying an "extended warrantee" that the open source project won't make changes that conflict with your changes; you gain a small amount of philosophical control. This also yields a big competitive advantage against anyone else who is also using the source to do the same things you are, but isn't giving their changes back. 4) By contributing code back, you control the space in which your competition has to play. Using the leverage of an open source project to set baseline standards in the competitive space, and forcing your competitions hand to follow yours. 5) By contributing code back, you gain cooperative advantage, as well as competitive advantage. This means, for instance, that your competition and you can interoperate, and any competing companies that don't adopt the code either have to work like mad to keep up, or they don't interoperate. This may give some of your competition a leg up at the same time it gives you a leg up, but not all of your competition. 6) By contributing code back, you can poison the well. I was reluctant to include this one, but it's a real danger that any open source project faces, regardless of the license used, and I would be lying if I said I didn't think this happens from time to time. The need to get the warning out was more important than the need to not give someone bad ideas; security through obscrity rarely works anyway. Q) OK, I can see how _tactical_ changes get contributed back, but what about _strategic_ changes? A) They don't. At least, not immediately; you need to take the long term view. Eventually, anything that's strategic will become tactical. This will happen either because the strategic value degrades over time as the competition develops equivalent technology, because the market you are in changes in some way, or the open source project you are leveraging for competitive advantage changes in such a way that you can no longer leverage it. This last can happen because of conflicting architectural changes that preclude your code from working, development of equivalent technology in the open source project for its own purposes (or worse, by your competition), The open source project is leaving your code in the dust, or simply because the ongoing maintenance burden outweighs the strategic advantage you had by keeping the code close to your vest. It's also important to note that patents play a critical role here. If you have strategic code, and it's covered by a process (algorithm) patent, no one can use it without your license anyway, and the open source project probably won't take the code under those conditions anyway. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 14:16:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from dns1.e-scape.net (unknown [207.245.48.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F5C14E30 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:16:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stefanos@dns1.e-scape.net) Received: (from stefanos@localhost) by dns1.e-scape.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13733 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:05:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:05:06 -0500 (EST) From: Stefanos Kiakas Message-Id: <199903132205.RAA13733@dns1.e-scape.net> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: GPLvsBSD madness Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been reading the messages posted here about GPL and BSD licensing issues and I have only one thing to say: Get over it! Whether you write one paper or a thousand papers on the subject it will not make a difference to the average user whether they should use FreeBSD or Linux. Most people do not care, nor will they care any differently after reading your paper, unless they are in the minority of people with specific needs. This small minority will make a decision which will compliment their goals. Both the GPL and BSD licenses are tools and will be used as required. Stefanos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 14:19: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1037A14DB2 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:18:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA07687; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:18:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36EAE426.B4DE952D@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:18:14 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: brett@lariat.org, tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the OpenSource/Free Software Debate References: <199903130845.DAA01236@y.dyson.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > Wes Peters said: > > > > Guy Kawasaki was simply the James Carville of the computer industry. > > Both remind me of a small dog that won't stop barking. > > > Even though Carville is a parody of himself, the biggest problem with > Carville is the product that he is pushing. His total lack of > credibility isn't due to his irritating style, but the advocacy positions > that he takes. If Carville was pushing a good product, he would be > just a silly and entertaining eccentric taking up valuable air time. > Since he appears to be pushing a sadly defective and somewhat malicious > product, then he appears (to me) to be a silly, foolish, irritating, and > "borderline" eccentric. > > It really doesn't make any sense to compare Carville advocating Clinton > with XXX advocating FreeBSD. There is absolutely no basis to compare > those two situations. OK, I see your point here. Come to think of it, you're right about Carville too. He'd be far less irritating if he were barking about George Bush, Bob Dole, or even Senator Kerry. He'd be the same goofball, but at least he would be a creditable goofball. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 14:25:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1040614DA3 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:25:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA07716; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:24:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36EAE5B2.AF6E3E37@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:24:50 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling theOpenSource/Free Software Debate References: <4352.921186024@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990312125429.03fa6530@localhost> <4.1.19990313071753.04020390@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 11:06 PM 3/12/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > >Too bad Apple never managed to strike that balance. They've just > >about become a sideshow now, thanks to management by egomania. > > Their management strategy is absurd. Too bad that even their > brilliant PR (and it is brilliant at times) can't make up for > that. It's important to remember that no matter how good your marketing is, how much the press likes you, you need to deliver what your customers want. Jobs seems to have forgotten this, or maybe he never learned it. Sun seems to be treading close to the line here these days, but the company continues to deliver to their customers even while Scott McNealy is out schmoozing Diane Sawyer. I wonder about the ability of Red Hat to survive the media attention and all the money pouring in, about their ability to remain focused on delivering better and better systems to their customers, and if their quality will slip as their popularity goes up. According to several people I know who are pretty far up in the Linux universe, this had already started happening. I live in fear, as I know you do, of the day Mary Jo Foley discovers Jordan's latent star ability and turns him into a media circus, too. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 14:36:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C3D14DDB for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 14:35:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25915; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:35:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd025899; Sat Mar 13 15:35:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22386; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:35:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903132235.PAA22386@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:35:30 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990313080537.B44604@ontario.mooseriver.com> from "Josef Grosch" at Mar 13, 99 08:05:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Another point to keep in mind is that the entire GPL and BSD license issues > can be rendered moot by a large corporation willing to spend the money on > lawyers. If, to randomly pull a large corporate name out of the air, > General Electric was using GPL tools to manufacture product and was not > living up to the specifics of GPL, according to Stallman, by not shipping > source code with the product, there is little Stallman, the FSF, and Linux > fanatics, etc. could do about it. GE could just bury Stallman and the FSF > in legal expenses. GE probably has legal department of over 1000 people > including several hundred lawyers and para-legals. I know for a fact that companies like Sun, HP, IBM, and Microsoft *will not* ship a product which utilizes GPL'ed components in combination with non-GPL'ed components. The fear is not for their source code, it is for the erosion of their patents by their utilization in code which is GPL'ed. There are a number of serious problems with the concept of "mere agregation", which feed this fear, as does the lack of explicit acknowledgement of dynamic linking technology in the LGPL. I think the currently largest worry in this regard is GPL'ed or LGPL'ed JAVA code, and what it means when you instance a class, "compile" JAVA to bytecode, or compile JAVA to native code on a platform, when one or more of the classes is GPL'ed or LGPL'ed. What does it mean to your JAVA code when, for example, you use the Kaffe implementation of the JAVA base JDK classes? The trouble here is that the GPL and LGPL don't specifically address the issue of what constitues an image or agregation in the case of an interpreted runtime environment (another reason interpreters cause problems, above and beyond their insistance that all languages be declarative). One could make a similar fear-inducing argument with regard to shell scripts that use shell built-in's being run under bash (for example). The corporate view is that it has to be severable. The Linux shipped on HP, Sun, and IBM equipment will not have any company provided code in it, above and beyond the base Linux. Don't expect Sun's Linux to have a full streams implementation, or DECNet, for example. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 16:22:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B17814F43 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:22:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07907; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:22:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36EB012E.B78B91E1@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:22:06 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefanos Kiakas Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPLvsBSD madness References: <199903132205.RAA13733@dns1.e-scape.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stefanos Kiakas wrote: > > I've been reading the messages posted here about GPL and BSD > licensing issues and I have only one thing to say: Get over it! > > Whether you write one paper or a thousand papers on the subject > it will not make a difference to the average user whether they should > use FreeBSD or Linux. Most people do not care, nor will they care any > differently after reading your paper, unless they are in the minority > of people with specific needs. This small minority will make a decision > which will compliment their goals. > > Both the GPL and BSD licenses are tools and will be used as > required. Both are tools, but neither are "used as required." Most developers who release code under any license don't understand the ramifications of the license, and generally don't spend much time thinking about the license, they make an emotional decision based on their perceptions of projects like FreeBSD, Linux, and Apache. A widely disseminated, well-written article that discusses the relative merits and weaknesses of each would a great service to developers everywhere. A good starting point would the article about why you SHOULD consider using the LGPL for your next library in the current issue of Linux Gazette. Interestingly enough, the writer of that article works for a healthcare consortium that releases their code under a Berkeley license. He raises the "advertising" issue that Terry deflected so well. I've NEVER in a nearly 20-year UNIX career seen an advertisement that mentioned "the Regents of the University of California at Berkeley," and have wondered several times what all the hullabaloo is about. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 18:38:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E84A215031 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:38:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id DAA81965; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 03:38:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Terry Lambert Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), Dave@Yost.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <199903072043.NAA27148@usr04.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Mar 1999 03:38:24 +0100 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:43:40 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert writes: > For example, a really trivial thing that could be done that would > make people hundreds of times more likely to try FreeBSD is to allow > it to install in a subdirectory of a Windows 95/98 file system, such > there was no "commit-before-trying" requirement. This would require > either a native UMSDOS VFS layer, or finally fixing the stacking, so > that you could get UNIX attributes on the files via a stacking layer. > You could go this one better than that, and actually place an ICON > on the desktop, as part of the install process, that caused the > machine to reboot in FreeBSD. You could go two better by placing an > AUTORUN.INI on the FreeBSD CDROM that offered to do the install into > a subdirectory for you ("Install FreeBSD Test Drive?"). That would require someone to actually write a Windows program. Yuck. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 19: 8:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A1E414FC3 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA00835; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:07:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990313200625.03e4c280@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 20:07:09 -0700 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), Dave@Yost.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199903072043.NAA27148@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:38 AM 3/14/99 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >That would require someone to actually write a Windows program. Yuck. Heck, I'll do that, distasteful as it might be. I have to do this for clients who are stuck with Windows. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 19:48:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E423414F7C for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:47:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05999; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:47:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling theOpenSource/Free Software Debate In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:24:50 MST." <36EAE5B2.AF6E3E37@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:47:55 -0800 Message-ID: <5997.921383275@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I live in fear, as I know you do, of the day Mary Jo Foley discovers > Jordan's latent star ability and turns him into a media circus, too. A media flea circus, perhaps, but I don't think my accent is exotic enough for media super-stardom in any case. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 13 21: 6:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53FC214FC3 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:05:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA08381; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:53:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36EB40D8.C15EBA52@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:53:44 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling theOpenSource/Free Software Debate References: <5997.921383275@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > I live in fear, as I know you do, of the day Mary Jo Foley discovers > > Jordan's latent star ability and turns him into a media circus, too. > > A media flea circus, perhaps, but I don't think my accent is exotic > enough for media super-stardom in any case. :-) You underestimate the current infatuation Americans have with Eire. All you have to do is wear a leather jacket over a cable-knit sweater and have a creditable brogue. Of course, how sexy can a Perl script be? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message