From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 21 9:50: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 987F6151DD for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:50:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16596; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:49:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:49:19 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brian Adkins Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RC5-64 Contest In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990321012057.00fa7680@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Brian Adkins wrote: > There's still not that many people participating. I think it's > possible for Team FreeBSD to keep moving up the rankings, even to the > number one slot. It's a fun contest and it might even increase > visibility. At one point, back when I was actually doing this FreeBSD was up to 11 or so. I finally quit because it was boring and the progress was SLOW. All of these people/machines working on this for over a year and a half and we've covered 6.5% of the keyspace? Blah. It seems to me that 64 bit encryption is plenty good. :-) If and when SETI@home gets up I'll probably do that. Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 21 14: 2:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zeprod.MorningStar.Com (zeprod.MorningStar.Com [137.175.23.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDC21510C for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:02:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by zeprod.MorningStar.Com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA04335; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:01:05 -0500 Message-Id: <4.1.19990321164610.00a844d0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:47:32 -0500 To: Brett Taylor From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: RC5-64 Contest Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990321012057.00fa7680@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:49 AM 3/21/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >At one point, back when I was actually doing this FreeBSD was up to 11 or >so. I finally quit because it was boring and the progress was SLOW. All >of these people/machines working on this for over a year and a half and >we've covered 6.5% of the keyspace? Blah. It seems to me that 64 bit >encryption is plenty good. :-) > >If and when SETI@home gets up I'll probably do that. Well, I have to agree with you about it being boring when it's taking so long. I was more interested in seeing Team FreeBSD move up to the number one daily ranking than in cracking the code, and yes, 64-bit encryption seems pretty good. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 21 14:10:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62CEC14DA8 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:10:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA15028; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:10:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990321150512.03f85d40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:09:48 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <52175.921875299@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:28 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >In real-life, just having FreeBSD emulation for Linux by no >means gets people to suddenly rush to produce FreeBSD binaries >because, as I said before, the incentive just isn't there and it isn't >there because of NUMBERS, nothing that you or I can change overnight. In real life, it would make it possible to amend the now-realistic advice you give to applications vendors: to target Linux and hope they run on FreeBSD under emulation. This is a horrible message! Each vendor who follows this path is likely NEVER to do a native implementation for FreeBSD. It's necessary to be able to say, "target FreeBSD and run on Linux, too," not the reverse. Otherwise, you are practicing "anti-advocacy." What's more, targeting Linux with a FreeBSD emulator is easier than targeting FreeBSD with a Linux emulator. Why? Because more people here are intimately familiar with the FreeBSD ABI than the Linux ABI. The Linux emulator is a harder task AS WELL AS a dangerous one. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 21 14:18:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC0014CD4 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:18:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA15129; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:18:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990321151026.00b5e2a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:11:45 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <52189.921875486@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:31 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >An emulation that the typical Linux user had to download and >incorporate into their kernel in order to get it to work would, by no >means, make the average software vendor jump up and down about how >FreeBSD was now a universal API (as Brett desires). That's too much >to expect of the typical Linux user. That's why people will start bundling the emulator. Also, as I understand it, all of the latest package managers for Linux resolve dependencies. They'd bring in the emulator if it was not there. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 21 14:19: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E6D14E11 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:18:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA15133; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:18:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990321151456.00b24a80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:18:02 -0700 To: Nik Clayton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990320084146.A25246@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.1.19990319171820.00c28ed0@localhost> <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319103804.00a8ec60@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> <199903192134.NAA19894@osprey.grizzly.com> <4.1.19990319171820.00c28ed0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:41 AM 3/20/99 +0000, Nik Clayton wrote: >At this point it doesn't matter what Jordan or anyone else thinks of this >idea. If you think it's a good idea then just *go and do it*. I'd love to, but even if I devote a huge chunk of my time to it I'm sure it would be best done with a bit of help. Would you be willing to help with the coding? Can we gather a group of people who are experienced in emulation -- in particular, some of the folks who did FreeBSD's Linux emulation? These people know the details of translation between the ABIs and the subtle differences between them. I'd be starting from ground zero, since I've never tried it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 8:24:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FF20150AF for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:24:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA32556; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:25:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:25:19 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990321150512.03f85d40@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > In real life, it would make it possible to amend the now-realistic > advice you give to applications vendors: to target Linux and hope > they run on FreeBSD under emulation. At this point, the choice isn't between creating native binaries for FreeBSD and Linux; it's between creating a native binary for Linux, or not. > This is a horrible message! Each vendor who follows this path is likely > NEVER to do a native implementation for FreeBSD. I disagree. If you can substantially build the FreeBSD userbase for the product under emulation, and then get that userbase clamoring for a native app, you'll have a chance of getting it. I'm not saying that we shouldn't ask for native apps all the while, and actively campaign for them, as well, but killing the Linux emulation project because it would seem to make Linux attractive is ludicrous. Does the AS/400's emulation of the System/36 make System/36 apps more attractive? What the Linux emulator does is make the jump from Linux to FreeBSD easier for dyed-in-the-wool Linux acolytes. It allows FreeBSD to run far more commercial application than are *currently* available in native form. Abandoning Linux emulation would a real sacrifice of functionality, and it would be suicide. Cheers, Mick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 9:41:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE2515236 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:41:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA43032; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:25:19 CST." Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:40:12 -0800 Message-ID: <43030.922124412@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I might add that my quote about porting to Linux is widely misquoted out of context. I never said "Port to FreeBSD instead of Linux" in exactly those words, I said "I urge any ISV who's just thinking of getting into the Unix market for the first time to consider Linux as a first porting target in order to get the maximum bang for the buck." For an ISV who's just arriving in the Unix market, this is more than reasonable advice. Those ISVs who've already been playing in the market for awhile, however, are urged to supply native binaries for everyone. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 9:43:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7896E153E3 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:43:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id SAA57551; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:42:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Brian Adkins Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RC5-64 Contest References: <4.1.19990321012057.00fa7680@mailbox.iwaynet.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Mar 1999 18:42:58 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brian Adkins's message of "Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:26:52 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Adkins writes: > Hey, the distributed.net people got the stats back up today and Team > FreeBSD rose 3 to rank 32 and NetBSD Users dropped 1 to rank 28 on the > daily stats! Perhaps whoever "owns" freebsd@distributed.net should have that user join Team FreeBSD - then contributing to that team would be as simple as "make install clean" in /usr/ports/misc/rc5des. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 10:46:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848A714CE2 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:46:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA222392; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:48:16 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199903191936.LAA33678@scv4.apple.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:47:06 -0500 To: wsanchez@apple.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Apple's open source... Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:37 AM -0800 3/19/99, Wilfredo Sanchez wrote: >Garance A Drosihn : >| We do need to improve the visibility of the *BSD connection, > > We are trying, by the way, with the advertising clause. The > installation manual for Mac OS X Server (both printed and on-disk) > includes a big list of acknolwegdements for the BSD stuff as well as > every other copyright I could find (just to be fair, even though it's > not required). Keep in mind that it's not a trivial thing to paste > that much spew into every document we produce. I wasn't thinking of Apple's actions, so much as the articles that various web sites have about MacOS Ten Server. While many of those articles will talk about "BSD 4.4", I haven't noticed any of them which mention any of FreeBSD, NetBSD, or OpenBSD. Not even once. >"Jordan K. Hubbard" : >| If Apple actually contributes code back, I won't actually care so >| much what their PR dept. does or does not acknowledge. It would be >| *very nice* to get public acknowledgement, don't get me wrong, but >| there are all kinds of "technology partners" out there and the ones >| who contribute technical assistance (bug fixes, reports, etc) are >| just as valuable in their own way. > > We'd love to get a better-established relationship with FreeBSD, > as I mentioned before. We really like FreeBSD. We have a nice > arrangement with NetBSD and a really excellent one with the Apache > Group. I think we may want to be more plublic about these things; it > may be good for all involved. I'll see what I can do about that. > > In fact, I'm still looking to use FreeBSD libraries in the future, > and I've even started some of the porting work, though I keep > getting distracted. :-) Well, this seems pretty encouraging to me! (note: I'm the main Macintosh support guy on the RPI campus, so I have an interest in this from both the Mac and FreeBSD sides...). --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 12:37:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7CD9152B3 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:36:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA23914; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:36:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322132103.03f66150@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:36:10 -0700 To: "Jasper O'Malley" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990321150512.03f85d40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:25 AM 3/22/99 -0600, Jasper O'Malley wrote: >I disagree. If you can substantially build the FreeBSD userbase for the >product under emulation, and then get that userbase clamoring for a native >app, you'll have a chance of getting it. I wish this were true; I really do. But in reality, the marketing people at the company will probably engage in a conversation something like this: Marketroid #1: Hey, I hear this FreeBSD operating system is really going great guns. A lot of their users are using our product now. Why don't we do a port to FreeBSD? Marketroid #2: If we haven't ported to FreeBSD yet, how can they be using our product? Marketroid #1: They're using the Linux version. FreeBSD emulates Linux. Marketroid #2: In that case, why should we invest any money in doing a port? They're already using the Linux product. If we spend the money, we'll get no new sales and we'll have to support another OS; that's like pouring big money down the toilet! Let's devote more money into pushing Linux. And what's this about an OS called "Be?" I hear it's based on Linux too. (*) Sound far-fetched? It isn't. When I recently talked to the people who do marketing at TripWire Security, they told me that their thinking was very much like the above. FreeBSD is NOT EVEN ON THEIR LIST of planned ports, thanks to Linux emulation. --Brett (*) Yes, you know and I know that BeOS uses only the LILO loader and some Linux device drivers. But recently, Be has been touting this as a way of trying to leverage Linux's flash-in-the-pan popularity. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 13: 6:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B38815277 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:06:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA43529; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:05:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:36:10 MST." <4.2.0.32.19990322132103.03f66150@localhost> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:05:41 -0800 Message-ID: <43527.922136741@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Given that Linux emulation will never be removed from FreeBSD and that it's not even a reasonable point of argument (too many people use it to remove it), I guess I'm somewhat puzzled as to what this thread hopes to achieve. One might just as well shake ones fist at the wind and demand that it stop blowing. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 13:16:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.svr.pol.co.uk (mail5.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670FD14EF4 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsm@acm.org) Received: from modem-88.praseodymium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.29.88] helo=valis.goatsucker.org) by mail5.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PB7F-0006vg-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:16:06 +0000 Received: (from scott@localhost) by valis.goatsucker.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA02339; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:45:55 GMT (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <19990322134555.56933@goatsucker.org> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:45:55 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Wes Peters , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Logo artwork (was Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser)) References: <36F265BE.36C1F4ED@softweyr.com> <19990319151451.E23921@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> <36F2A260.33C0F2FF@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <36F2A260.33C0F2FF@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:15:44PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 12:15:44PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Scott Mitchell wrote: > > > > The logo business was discussed to death a few months back on this very > > list, as part of the 'Works with FreeBSD' branding program.....whatever > > happened to that? I recall that someone was going to take all the > > suggestions we all made and do something constructive with them. So, > > whoever that someone was, are you still out there? > > We never got any suggestions, in terms of logo artwork. Not a single > one. Got any ideas? Got any artistic abilities, or friends who do? > I'm STILL waiting. I suppose I could ask my sister -- she's a photographer/graphic artist (she does a lot of photoshop work) so she could probably produce something suitable. If whoever is carrying the ball for this project could put together a spec of exactly what we want, with pointers to any existing artwork that might serve as inspiration, I can ask her about it the next time I see her. She may of course (not unreasonably, I think) want to be paid; is there any hope, or is that a complete non-starter? Wes, you're a big wheel on the Daemon News, right? Have you talked to Ms. Coleman (sp?) of Darby Daemon fame about this -- she seems like an ideal candidate for the job. Cheers, Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 13:22:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8BDC15282 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:22:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA24344; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:22:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322141525.00a82b00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:19:27 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <43527.922136741@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan: You're correct that it is far too late to undo the damage to the platform that has been caused by emulating another more popular one -- a strategy that IBM showed to be almost suicidal. However, FreeBSD may be able to recoup some native application support by creating an emulator for Linux. This is what we should do next. Otherwise, we'll have NOT native application support now or in the foreseeable future. We'll have made it such a bad business proposition to do a natively compiled app that it just won't happen. --Brett At 01:05 PM 3/22/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Given that Linux emulation will never be removed from FreeBSD and that >it's not even a reasonable point of argument (too many people use it >to remove it), I guess I'm somewhat puzzled as to what this thread >hopes to achieve. One might just as well shake ones fist at the wind >and demand that it stop blowing. > >- Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 14:14:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9065E15293 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:14:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25238; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:10:01 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:09:59 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Brett Glass Cc: Nik Clayton , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser Message-ID: <19990322210958.A12575@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.1.19990319171820.00c28ed0@localhost> <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319103804.00a8ec60@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> <199903192134.NAA19894@osprey.grizzly.com> <4.1.19990319171820.00c28ed0@localhost> <19990320084146.A25246@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <4.1.19990321151456.00b24a80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990321151456.00b24a80@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 03:18:02PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Mar 21, 1999 at 03:18:02PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:41 AM 3/20/99 +0000, Nik Clayton wrote: > >At this point it doesn't matter what Jordan or anyone else thinks of this > >idea. If you think it's a good idea then just *go and do it*. > > I'd love to, but even if I devote a huge chunk of my time to it I'm sure it > would be best done with a bit of help. Would you be willing to help with > the coding? I'd love to, but have neither the time or the talent. Your best bet is probably to do the following; 1. Put together a couple of webpages outlining why you think Linux running FreeBSD binaries would be a good thing. 2. Post *one* call to -hackers, pointing to the URL, and asking if anyone's interested. 3. Post a similar pointer on freebsdrocks.com. Try and get it submitted to slashdot. Pick a Linux distribution that you think you can work with (Debian are probably your best bet) and see if you can get them involved. Ask Illiad if he'll write a cartoon about it. Don't forget the newsgroups either. 4. Wait for the volunteers to come rolling in. 5. Act as point-man for the operation. 6. Come back to this list in 6 months time saying "I told you so!" Or you could throw lots of money at a developer and try and make it happen that way. But I think this discussion has gone about as far as it can. If you don't get volunteers after doing the above, you might have to accept that the right people[1] don't think it's a good idea, and live with it. N [1] Where "the right people" means the people who have the technical skill *and* the desire to implement it. I don't mean to imply that there's some central authority you have to impress to get this done. -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 14:28:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F0931532A for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:28:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adkins@iwaynet.net) Received: from think (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA21678 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:27:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990322121713.00fe8920@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Message-Id: <4.1.19990322121713.00fe8920@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:17:59 -0500 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "B. Adkins" Subject: Is Red Hat a mini Microsoft? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Conceived as a computing underdog, Red Hat Software Inc. cut its teeth battling heavy-handed moves by the likes of Microsoft. Now it may be borrowing a page straight from Redmond." http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0%2C4586%2C2229091%2C00.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 14:28:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A82F1532D for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:28:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adkins@iwaynet.net) Received: from think (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA21681 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:27:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990322170133.00b36100@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:28:02 -0500 To: advocacy@freebsd.org From: "B. Adkins" Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990322141525.00a82b00@localhost> References: <43527.922136741@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG With all the discussion about emulation strategies etc., I thought I'd put my plug in for one particular emulator that has a pretty decent bang/buck ratio - the Java Virtual Machine. The number of Java applications is increasing and many of the operating systems I've researched have mediocre Java support at best. By providing a kick-butt JDK on FreeBSD, many ISV's may choose FreeBSD because 1) their apps *run as good or better* on it than other OS's - not becase of ease/difficulty in porting and 2) they prefer dealing with FreeBSD over Windows NT etc. For example, my company has recently developed a Veterinary Practice Management software product written entirely in Java. I'll be testing the app on FreeBSD in the next few weeks, and if the testing goes well, I'll be recommending FreeBSD as the server for our customers instead of Windows NT. I'm personally very excited about FreeBSD and if it runs Java well, I'd prefer recommending it as the server for all our current and future products. Even if it doesn't, I'd still keep it as my personal OS because I love it. Brian Adkins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 14:32:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A482F14C41 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:32:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id OAA29536; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id OAA01015; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:31:18 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id PAA19150; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:31:14 -0700 Message-ID: <36F6C4BA.127F7508@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:31:22 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.1.19990321150512.03f85d40@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990322132103.03f66150@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > Marketroid #1: They're using the Linux version. FreeBSD emulates Linux. > > Marketroid #2: In that case, why should we invest any money in doing a > port? They're already using the Linux product. If we spend the money, > we'll get no new sales and we'll have to support another OS; that's > like pouring big money down the toilet! Let's devote more money into > pushing Linux. And what's this about an OS called "Be?" I hear it's based > on Linux too. (*) > > [...] > > (*) Yes, you know and I know that BeOS uses only the LILO loader and some No, it doesn't. I used a similar loader on x86 in the early days, called BeLO, but that has been gone since R4. Perhaps you should know a *little bit* about what you're talking about before spewing misinformation about, Brett. > Linux device drivers. But recently, Be has been touting this as a way Far more of their device drivers came from FreeBSD than Linux. Be cannot distribute Linux drivers with the system, because most Linux drivers are GPL'd. Other chunks of BSD functionality, primarily FreeBSD, are found in BeOS as well -- the system date/time code for instance. > of trying to leverage Linux's flash-in-the-pan popularity. I dare you to find any public utterance or writing by any official, or even employee, of Be Inc. trying to claim any degree of compatibility with Linux, or in any other way attempting to "leverage Linux's flash-in-the-pan popularity." It just has not (and will not) happen. This is just yet another B.S. from Brett. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 14:34:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB961551B for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:34:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA116595560; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:46:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:46:00 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Jasper O'Malley , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990322132103.03f66150@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > (*) Yes, you know and I know that BeOS uses only the LILO loader and some > Linux device drivers. But recently, Be has been touting this as a way > of trying to leverage Linux's flash-in-the-pan popularity. Doesn't that mean that BeOS would have to include the source + modifications with BeOS? Not to start another argument, but... - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 14:44:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F3B1555B for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:44:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA25143; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:44:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322150433.00aa99e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:44:13 -0700 To: Bill Fumerola From: Brett Glass Subject: BeOS and the GPL (Was: Netscape browser) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990322132103.03f66150@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:46 PM 3/22/99 -0500, Bill Fumerola wrote: >On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >> (*) Yes, you know and I know that BeOS uses only the LILO loader and some >> Linux device drivers. But recently, Be has been touting this as a way >> of trying to leverage Linux's flash-in-the-pan popularity. > >Doesn't that mean that BeOS would have to include the source + >modifications with BeOS? > >Not to start another argument, but... We don't need to have that argument; it's already been had! (In fact, it may still be going on somewhere on Slashdot.) Here's a summary of events as I understand them to have happened. BeOS has always come with a bunch of GPLed code. Most of this exists as separate utilities (as it does in FreeBSD). However, according to Be's newsletter at http://www.be.com/aboutbe/benewsletter/volume_II/Issue18.html Be linked some GPLed code directly into the BeOS 3.0 kernel. Not recognizing the viral nature of the GPL, it believe that releasing just the source files which contained the GPLed code was sufficient to satisfy the GPL. When the newsletter was posted, however, a whole bunch of Stallmanites cried, "Gotcha! You linked the GPLed code in, so now you have to reveal ALL the source code of BeOS 3.0!" Be refused to do so. Instead, it removed the GPLed code from the kernel and replaced it with original code. It kept the Linux device drivers (which are dynamically loaded modules) and the loader (a derivative of LILO and also a separate program). It published the source to these. A few of the Linux faithful are still claiming that Be must release all of its source due to this accidental misstep. That's the story as it stands. I'll leave editorial comments to others.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 15: 6:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1604E152A4 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:06:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA25411; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:06:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322154730.00ab0df0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:05:27 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36F6C4BA.127F7508@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19990321150512.03f85d40@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990322132103.03f66150@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:31 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >> (*) Yes, you know and I know that BeOS uses only the LILO loader and some > >No, it doesn't. I used a similar loader on x86 in the early days, called >BeLO, but that has been gone since R4. Perhaps you should know a *little >bit* about what you're talking about before spewing misinformation about, >Brett. As I understand it, the loader in R3 (and perhaps in R4 as well) is a derivative of LILO. >> Linux device drivers. But recently, Be has been touting this as a way > >Far more of their device drivers came from FreeBSD than Linux. Be cannot >distribute Linux drivers with the system, because most Linux drivers are >GPL'd. Actually, Wes, they could -- so long as the drivers are compiled as separate modules that are loaded at runtime. As I understand it, this is precisely what BeOS does. (They also statically linked some GPLed code in R3, but pulled it; see the citation below and also the message I just sent under a new subject.) >Other chunks of BSD functionality, primarily FreeBSD, are found >in BeOS as well -- the system date/time code for instance. I'm not the least bit surprised that they've used code from the BSDs as well! >I dare you to find any public utterance or writing by any official, or even >employee, of Be Inc. trying to claim any degree of compatibility with Linux, "Compatibility?" Actually, they do claim some compatibility with Linux (though that's not the issue I was addressing). They have published an ext2 file system driver that lets them mount Linux disk volumes. But that's not what I was talking about. What I was saying is that Be included Linux code -- and GPLed code -- in the package. Some of it was even statically linked into BeOS R3. They say so themselves, for the world to see, at http://www.be.com/aboutbe/benewsletter/volume_II/Issue18.html >or in any other way attempting to "leverage Linux's flash-in-the-pan >popularity." Be is definitely trying to do this, though it wouldn't state explicitly that this was its strategy, of course. See Gassee's essay, "A Crack In The Wall," at http://www.be.com/aboutbe/benewsletter/volume_III/Issue8.html. He's hoping that Linux will pave the way for the installation of alternative OSes such as BeOS. Alas, it may also kill Be's market, but that's another issue. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 15: 8:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704E5152D5 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:08:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA43960; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:07:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:19:27 MST." <4.2.0.32.19990322141525.00a82b00@localhost> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:07:33 -0800 Message-ID: <43958.922144053@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > one -- a strategy that IBM showed to be almost suicidal. However, Actually, I think IBM showed it to be suicidal by not doing a very good job of it in OS/2. Otherwise, it was a fine idea. The WINE and WABI projects also did their best but failed (or are failing) because they didn't do a good enough job, not because it was a bad job to try and do. > FreeBSD may be able to recoup some native application support by > creating an emulator for Linux. This is what we should do next. I still seriously doubt that anyone in FreeBSD land will do any such thing - I see neither the motivation nor the available talent (at least in the same package) to make it happen and, again, have to wonder at the usefulness of this entire thread. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 15:16: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D2014E6F for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:15:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA25507; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:15:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322160933.00aaf6c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:15:28 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <43958.922144053@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:07 PM 3/22/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> one -- a strategy that IBM showed to be almost suicidal. However, > >Actually, I think IBM showed it to be suicidal by not doing a very >good job of it in OS/2. Otherwise, it was a fine idea. Actually, it was a really GOOD implementation. For awhile, it could run virtually any Windows application. The reason why it ultimately stopped working so well was that Microsoft moved the API out from under them. And the damage it did, at first, was irreparable. Developers stopped porting to OS/2. By the time the emulation STOPPED working, no one would go back to writing native code for OS/2 because the OS was failing. >I still seriously doubt that anyone in FreeBSD land will do any such >thing - I see neither the motivation nor the available talent (at >least in the same package) to make it happen Well, quite frankly, Jordan, your lack of support for it could well poison the effort. >and, again, have to >wonder at the usefulness of this entire thread. The usefulness of the entire thread, Jordan, is that I'm trying to present a coherent vision and strategy for the promotion of FreeBSD. No platform gets support by divine right; it has to earn it by making the right moves. FreeBSD is falling into old traps and not thinking outside the box, and it's going to lose out as a result. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 15:18:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3FF21540F for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:18:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id PAA75206; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:17:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:17:38 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: "B. Adkins" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Red Hat a mini Microsoft? Message-ID: <19990322151738.B75109@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <4.1.19990322121713.00fe8920@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990322121713.00fe8920@mailbox.iwaynet.net>; from B. Adkins on Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 12:17:59PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 12:17:59PM -0500, B. Adkins wrote: > "Conceived as a computing underdog, Red Hat Software Inc. cut its teeth > battling heavy-handed moves by the likes of Microsoft. Now it may be > borrowing a page straight from Redmond." > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0%2C4586%2C2229091%2C00.html More FUD from microsoft via their lapdog in the media, Ziff-Davis. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 15:28:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 516F014C86 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:28:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23437; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:27:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:27:00 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Nik Clayton Cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <19990322210958.A12575@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > Your best bet is probably to do the following; -snip- [Nik's dead on list of things to do removed here for brevity] This is totally right. However this would require Brett to do some work rather than just spouting off so I wouldn't hold your breath. Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 15:50:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812E3152A0 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:50:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA25791; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:49:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322164637.040dd720@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:49:43 -0700 To: Brett Taylor , Nik Clayton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990322210958.A12575@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:27 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >This is totally right. However this would require Brett to do some work >rather than just spouting off so I wouldn't hold your breath. For your information, I'm already working on doing some of the things that Nik suggested -- plus a few that weren't on his list. Of course, you seem to be working very hard on "poisoning the well" by acting as a naysayer when anyone in this forum comes up with a constructive suggestion. Hopefully, there will be enough people who are interested in doing something POSITIVE to overcome this destructive attitude. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 15:57:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B7B1525F for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:57:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA00508; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA03688; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:55:52 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id QAA24499; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:55:44 -0700 Message-ID: <36F6D888.231A8379@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:55:52 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Cc: "B. Adkins" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Red Hat a mini Microsoft? References: <4.1.19990322121713.00fe8920@mailbox.iwaynet.net> <19990322151738.B75109@ontario.mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Josef Grosch wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 12:17:59PM -0500, B. Adkins wrote: > > "Conceived as a computing underdog, Red Hat Software Inc. cut its teeth > > battling heavy-handed moves by the likes of Microsoft. Now it may be > > borrowing a page straight from Redmond." > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0%2C4586%2C2229091%2C00.html > > More FUD from microsoft via their lapdog in the media, Ziff-Davis. Not my take on it. Talk to anyone who's been heavily involved in Linux for more than a year, and they have a very arms-length relationship with Red Hat. Moreover, many of them are mulling the question of whether all the media and commercial attention will be good for Linux. I have the same reservations about FreeBSD, and have written about them informally a few times. Perhaps I should do so more formally. So, here's an invitation. Let's discuss the pros and cons of the current Linux explosion. How do you think this will improve Linux, and how do you think it will hurt Linux? In what ways might FreeBSD be improved and hurt by similar, or indeed ANY level of media and commercial attention? I'd like to write a Daemons Advocate on this, and to present the viewpoints of the community, not just myself. Please invite your NetBSD and OpenBSD friends to join in. Here's an example discussion point: Now that Red Hat is being paid lotso' dollars to support and develop Linux for large commercial customers, how likely is a small user with one aging 386 box to get any attention at all when RH 6.0 won't run on his machine? Are the "little guys" going to get left in the dust, as they were with Windows NT and Solaris x86? What about support for 1MB video cards, etc., ad nauseum? -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 16:15:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7A415293 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-133.thuntek.net [207.66.52.133]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id RAA28447; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:14:54 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F6DCBB.D8468D5C@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:13:47 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Red Hat a mini Microsoft? References: <4.1.19990322121713.00fe8920@mailbox.iwaynet.net> <19990322151738.B75109@ontario.mooseriver.com> <36F6D888.231A8379@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > [snip] > So, here's an invitation. Let's discuss the pros and cons of the current > Linux explosion. How do you think this will improve Linux, and how do > you think it will hurt Linux? In what ways might FreeBSD be improved and > hurt by similar, or indeed ANY level of media and commercial attention? > > I'd like to write a Daemons Advocate on this, and to present the viewpoints > of the community, not just myself. Please invite your NetBSD and OpenBSD > friends to join in. > > Here's an example discussion point: Now that Red Hat is being paid lotso' > dollars to support and develop Linux for large commercial customers, how > likely is a small user with one aging 386 box to get any attention at all > when RH 6.0 won't run on his machine? Are the "little guys" going to get > left in the dust, as they were with Windows NT and Solaris x86? What > about support for 1MB video cards, etc., ad nauseum? > It seems to me that we're already being pulled in that direction with FreeBSD. My latest 3.1 kernel is 15.4M in size, and the practical limit for most 386 motherboards was 16M. Also, numerous drivers have notations in LINT 'no longer supported due to insufficient demand', or something like that. As far as Linux goes, MHO is crystalized by our FUUNM experience: the best users all use FreeBSD, and the Linux users defer to us for expertise. Power Users Use the Power To SERVE! I think we will also see the GPL being flaunted as Linux gets into more companies. Software piracy is a fact of life, and Stallman can't stop corporate greed. It will be interesting to see if anyone challenges a betrayal. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 16:42:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from duey.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2781506F for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:42:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06437; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:42:10 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:42:10 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Brian Adkins , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RC5-64 Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 22 Mar 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Brian Adkins writes: > > Hey, the distributed.net people got the stats back up today and Team > > FreeBSD rose 3 to rank 32 and NetBSD Users dropped 1 to rank 28 on the > > daily stats! > > Perhaps whoever "owns" freebsd@distributed.net should have that user > join Team FreeBSD - then contributing to that team would be as simple > as "make install clean" in /usr/ports/misc/rc5des. Err, I'm coming into this a bit late, but if someone has an easy way to create a bootable floppy with the fxp and ed NIC drivers, a dhcp client (optional, but highly preferred), and the rc5des client, I have about 40 PII-266's and 30 P133s I could run it on for about 15 hours a day, and 48 hours on weekends. Think that would bring Team FreeBSD up a notch or two? :-) I could also just fudge and run a Win95 version of the client in the background all day on even more workstations than that (the users wouldn't be any wiser, so long as it only worked during idle time). -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) ( http://www.freebsd.org ) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 16:55:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B44E1523F for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:55:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA44318; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:54:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD emulation for linux (was: Re: blah blah blah) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:15:28 MST." <4.2.0.32.19990322160933.00aaf6c0@localhost> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:54:08 -0800 Message-ID: <44316.922150448@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The reason why it ultimately stopped working so well was that Microsoft > moved the API out from under them. At which point they should have fixed it, regardless of the degree of technical difficulty involved. I wouldn't just say that off-handedly about anyone, but I find it hard to believe that IBM, with all of its incredible resources and arsenal of software patents (for convenient cross-licensing purposes), couldn't have kept up with the football as Microsoft attempted to kick it around the field. > Well, quite frankly, Jordan, your lack of support for it could well > poison the effort. I have pointed out that it's technically difficult to do something like this given the differences between the FreeBSD and Linux APIs. This is no more than correct. I have pointed out that it would need buy-in by the major Linux distros before this could be the kind of out-of-box solution ISVs would want it to be before targeting the Linux platforms with FreeBSD native binaries, and such buy-in isn't trivially contemplated. This is no more than correct. I have pointed out, just now, that I simply don't see the kind of talent it would require being available. Motivation is great and technical abilities are great, but they need to be enbodied in the same person before you get movement here. You've also suggested that the Linux emulation team would be the ideal candidates when I happen to know that everyone on the Linux emulation team is busy up to their eyeballs and very definitely *not* even motivated in this direction (and if Soren subscribed to advocacy, you'd have been flamed to toast by now for even proposing him in absentia). This is no more than silly. If pointing out glaring flaws in a proposal truly counts as "poisoning" it then I would submit that it also constitutes a mercy killing. Many of your suggestions would be far motivational, in fact, if you just took the time to actually do some of the "devil's advocacy" yourself before committing them to paper (so to speak) and then having everyone else shoot noisily at the more obvious holes in them. Even advocacy can sometimes stand a little bit of the old vigorous scientific inquiry process (before publication) when it starts getting into specifics, as you've been wont to do lately, and just shooting ideas from the hip and seeing what they hit afterwards doesn't quite cut it when you're getting into the area of suggestions which are actually technical in nature. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 16:55:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8975914D26 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:55:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from think (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA29136; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:54:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990322194631.00b19d10@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:55:26 -0500 To: Chris Dillon , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: RC5-64 Contest Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:42 PM 3/22/99 -0600, Chris Dillon wrote: >Err, I'm coming into this a bit late, but if someone has an easy way >to create a bootable floppy with the fxp and ed NIC drivers, a dhcp >client (optional, but highly preferred), and the rc5des client, I have >about 40 PII-266's and 30 P133s I could run it on for about 15 hours a >day, and 48 hours on weekends. Think that would bring Team FreeBSD up >a notch or two? :-) Most definitely!! >I could also just fudge and run a Win95 version of the client in the >background all day on even more workstations than that (the users >wouldn't be any wiser, so long as it only worked during idle time). I don't see a problem with that - go ahead and run it on the Windows boxes too - as long as a FreeBSD user is responsible for running the clients, it seems ok to me :) It seems to work fine in the background on Windows boxes - it can be configured to run hidden. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 17:11:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3CD152BB for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:11:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id D0D143432; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:08:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:08:02 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte Reply-To: Eric Wayte To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jasper O'Malley , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990322160933.00aaf6c0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This thread has outlived its usefulness! It's obvious it's time for Brettnux - the Linux distro with the FreeBSD emulator. Now go off and write the thing and leave the rest of us in peace! On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:15:28 -0700 > From: Brett Glass > To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > Cc: Jasper O'Malley , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Netscape browser > > At 03:07 PM 3/22/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > >> one -- a strategy that IBM showed to be almost suicidal. However, > > > >Actually, I think IBM showed it to be suicidal by not doing a very > >good job of it in OS/2. Otherwise, it was a fine idea. > > Actually, it was a really GOOD implementation. For awhile, it could > run virtually any Windows application. > > The reason why it ultimately stopped working so well was that Microsoft > moved the API out from under them. > > And the damage it did, at first, was irreparable. Developers stopped > porting to OS/2. By the time the emulation STOPPED working, no one > would go back to writing native code for OS/2 because the OS was failing. > > >I still seriously doubt that anyone in FreeBSD land will do any such > >thing - I see neither the motivation nor the available talent (at > >least in the same package) to make it happen > > Well, quite frankly, Jordan, your lack of support for it could well > poison the effort. > > >and, again, have to > >wonder at the usefulness of this entire thread. > > The usefulness of the entire thread, Jordan, is that I'm trying to present > a coherent vision and strategy for the promotion of FreeBSD. No platform > gets support by divine right; it has to earn it by making the right moves. > FreeBSD is falling into old traps and not thinking outside the box, and it's > going to lose out as a result. > > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 17:15:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97DC715177 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:15:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA26632; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:15:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322180649.040bf100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:14:59 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <44316.922150448@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:54 PM 3/22/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> The reason why it ultimately stopped working so well was that Microsoft >> moved the API out from under them. > >At which point they should have fixed it, regardless of the degree of >technical difficulty involved. I wouldn't just say that off-handedly >about anyone, but I find it hard to believe that IBM, with all of its >incredible resources and arsenal of software patents (for convenient >cross-licensing purposes), couldn't have kept up with the football as >Microsoft attempted to kick it around the field. It involved the use of entire libraries of code that IBM didn't have access to. It wasn't just a few APIs! What's more, to implement it would have violated OS/2's protection model, allowing Windows apps to crash the whole machine. The Win32s and Win32 architectures were incredibly dirty and nasty and could not be virtualized. >> Well, quite frankly, Jordan, your lack of support for it could well >> poison the effort. > >I have pointed out that it's technically difficult to do something >like this given the differences between the FreeBSD and Linux APIs. >This is no more than correct. Could it be any harder than going the other way? >I have pointed out that it would need buy-in by the major Linux >distros before this could be the kind of out-of-box solution ISVs >would want it to be before targeting the Linux platforms with FreeBSD >native binaries, and such buy-in isn't trivially contemplated. It's easy to lay the strategic groundwork for this. Again, you're being negative, and as "spiritual leader" of FreeBSD you're dampening enthusiasm for something that's NECESSARY. >I have pointed out, just now, that I simply don't see the kind of >talent it would require being available. Motivation is great and >technical abilities are great, but they need to be enbodied in the >same person before you get movement here. What's happened to the people who were working on Linux emulation? > You've also suggested that >the Linux emulation team would be the ideal candidates when I happen >to know that everyone on the Linux emulation team is busy up to their >eyeballs and very definitely *not* even motivated in this direction >(and if Soren subscribed to advocacy, you'd have been flamed to toast >by now for even proposing him in absentia). This is no more than >silly. If they're not motivated in this direction, Jordan, then you should help to get them motivated. This is needed. >If pointing out glaring flaws in a proposal truly counts as >"poisoning" it then I would submit that it also constitutes a mercy >killing. None of the things you've pointed out are glaring flaws, IMHO. However, again, as the "spiritual" leader of FreeBSD, you can kill even good ideas. Sad but true. >Many of your suggestions would be far motivational, in fact, if you >just took the time to actually do some of the "devil's advocacy" >yourself before committing them to paper (so to speak) and then having >everyone else shoot noisily at the more obvious holes in them. Even >advocacy can sometimes stand a little bit of the old vigorous >scientific inquiry process (before publication) when it starts getting >into specifics, as you've been wont to do lately, and just shooting >ideas from the hip and seeing what they hit afterwards doesn't quite >cut it when you're getting into the area of suggestions which are >actually technical in nature. What sort of inquiry would you recommend? There's nothing about this project which is fundamentally different from emulating Linux on FreeBSD, so technical feasibility is not in doubt. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 17:21:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78173152C9 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:21:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA26710; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:21:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:20:49 -0700 To: Eric Wayte From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jasper O'Malley" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990322160933.00aaf6c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It looks as if any attempt to spur advocacy for, or promotion of, FreeBSD is doomed to failure in this group. No wonder FreeBSD is falling into obscurity while Linux crushes everything in sight. --Brett At 08:08 PM 3/22/99 -0500, Eric Wayte wrote: >This thread has outlived its usefulness! It's obvious it's time for >Brettnux - the Linux distro with the FreeBSD emulator. Now go off and >write the thing and leave the rest of us in peace! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 17:22:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F527152C9 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:22:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id RAA01574; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA06794; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:21:25 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id SAA29787; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:21:23 -0700 Message-ID: <36F6EC9A.99FCEB7C@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:21:30 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.1.19990321150512.03f85d40@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990322132103.03f66150@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990322154730.00ab0df0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:31 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > >> (*) Yes, you know and I know that BeOS uses only the LILO loader and some > > > >No, it doesn't. I used a similar loader on x86 in the early days, called > >BeLO, but that has been gone since R4. Perhaps you should know a *little > >bit* about what you're talking about before spewing misinformation about, > >Brett. > > As I understand it, the loader in R3 (and perhaps in R4 as well) is a > derivative of LILO. > > >> Linux device drivers. But recently, Be has been touting this as a way > > > >Far more of their device drivers came from FreeBSD than Linux. Be cannot > >distribute Linux drivers with the system, because most Linux drivers are > >GPL'd. > > Actually, Wes, they could -- so long as the drivers are compiled as > separate modules that are loaded at runtime. As I understand it, this > is precisely what BeOS does. (They also statically linked some GPLed > code in R3, but pulled it; see the citation below and also the message > I just sent under a new subject.) > > >Other chunks of BSD functionality, primarily FreeBSD, are found > >in BeOS as well -- the system date/time code for instance. > > I'm not the least bit surprised that they've used code from the BSDs > as well! > > >I dare you to find any public utterance or writing by any official, or even > >employee, of Be Inc. trying to claim any degree of compatibility with Linux, > > "Compatibility?" Actually, they do claim some compatibility with Linux No, they don't. > They have published an ext2 file system > driver that lets them mount Linux disk volumes. No, they haven't. One of their contributors has published an ext2 filesystem driver. Others have published ports of many other GPL'd loadable drivers. The drivers that are shipped with BeOS aren't. > But that's not what I was > talking about. What I was saying is that Be included Linux code -- and > GPLed code -- in the package. Some of it was even statically linked into BeOS > R3. They say so themselves, for the world to see, at > > http://www.be.com/aboutbe/benewsletter/volume_II/Issue18.html Of course they did. In what way does this newsletter article claim to make BeOS in any way "compatible" with Linux? > >or in any other way attempting to "leverage Linux's flash-in-the-pan > >popularity." > > Be is definitely trying to do this, though it wouldn't state explicitly > that this was its strategy, of course. See Gassee's essay, "A Crack In The > Wall," at http://www.be.com/aboutbe/benewsletter/volume_III/Issue8.html. He's > hoping that Linux will pave the way for the installation of alternative OSes Funny, it seemed to me that he proposed BeOS pave the way for installation of other operating systems like Linux. His real point was that *any* crack in the wall will cause the dam to burst, it doesn't matter who makes the crack. That's what his challenge to PC manufacturers is all about - to put a crack in the wall. > such as BeOS. Alas, it may also kill Be's market, but that's another issue. If you think that, then you just don't understand either Linux or BeOS very well. Nor do you understand how hard it is to make an operating system, network box, or anything else that will keep up with video streams, regardless of how much CPU horsepower you throw at them. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 17:35:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577CD14C26 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:35:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id RAA01642; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:33:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA15942; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:33:37 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id SAA00556; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:33:30 -0700 Message-ID: <36F6EF73.DBD601A8@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:33:39 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , Nik Clayton , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <19990322210958.A12575@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <4.2.0.32.19990322164637.040dd720@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:27 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: > > >This is totally right. However this would require Brett to do some work > >rather than just spouting off so I wouldn't hold your breath. > > For your information, I'm already working on doing some of the things > that Nik suggested -- plus a few that weren't on his list. Of course, > you seem to be working very hard on "poisoning the well" by acting as a > naysayer when anyone in this forum comes up with a constructive suggestion. > Hopefully, there will be enough people who are interested in doing something > POSITIVE to overcome this destructive attitude. Naysayer? Brett Taylor's done as much for FreeBSD advocacy as anyone around in the last 6 months; any reader of Daemon News will assure you that. I think he'd rather see people spend their time and energy on efforts that do some good, than pissing in the wind on some Brett Glass boondoggle. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 17:35:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8663014C26 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:35:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-069.thuntek.net [207.66.52.69]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id SAA16556; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:35:22 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F6EF99.6C2CE94A@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:34:17 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.2.0.32.19990322160933.00aaf6c0@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > It looks as if any attempt to spur advocacy for, or promotion of, FreeBSD > is doomed to failure in this group. No wonder FreeBSD is falling into > obscurity while Linux crushes everything in sight. > > --Brett > Brett, reread that disgusting statement and realize why you get such disgusted reactions from sensible people. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 17:36:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69B614F59 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:36:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23928; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:35:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09087; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:35:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:35:43 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Chris Dillon Subject: Re: RC5-64 Contest Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Brian Adkins , Dag-Erling Smorgrav Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 23-Mar-99 Chris Dillon wrote: > On 22 Mar 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >> Brian Adkins writes: >> > Hey, the distributed.net people got the stats back up today and Team >> > FreeBSD rose 3 to rank 32 and NetBSD Users dropped 1 to rank 28 on the >> > daily stats! >> >> Perhaps whoever "owns" freebsd@distributed.net should have that user >> join Team FreeBSD - then contributing to that team would be as simple >> as "make install clean" in /usr/ports/misc/rc5des. > > Err, I'm coming into this a bit late, but if someone has an easy way > to create a bootable floppy with the fxp and ed NIC drivers, a dhcp > client (optional, but highly preferred), and the rc5des client, I have > about 40 PII-266's and 30 P133s I could run it on for about 15 hours a > day, and 48 hours on weekends. Think that would bring Team FreeBSD up > a notch or two? :-) > > I could also just fudge and run a Win95 version of the client in the > background all day on even more workstations than that (the users > wouldn't be any wiser, so long as it only worked during idle time). First, statically compile rc5des. Then create a custom PicoBSD, and have it copy the rc5des program onto the floppy image while it is building the MFS tree. I used a similar trick to get a static dhcp client on a 3.0-CURRENT PicoBSD in January. > -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net > /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. > For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) > ( http://www.freebsd.org ) */ --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 17:38:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (pinnacle.internet.co.nz [210.48.55.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B8A14F59 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:38:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.2]) by kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01839; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:36:38 +1200 (NZST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:36:38 +1200 (NZST) From: Jonathan Chen To: "B. Adkins" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990322170133.00b36100@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, B. Adkins wrote: > I'm personally very excited about FreeBSD and if it runs Java well, I'd > prefer recommending it as the server for all our current and future > products. Even if it doesn't, I'd still keep it as my personal OS because I > love it. Remember to get a JIT-compiler with it as well, otherwise it will run *very* slowly. Jonathan Chen --------------------------------------------------------------------- When all other forms of communication fail, use words To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 17:46:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E877153A8 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:46:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25590; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:45:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00329; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:45:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <36F6DCBB.D8468D5C@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:45:43 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Donald Wilde Subject: Re: Is Red Hat a mini Microsoft? Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 23-Mar-99 Donald Wilde wrote: > It seems to me that we're already being pulled in that direction with > FreeBSD. My latest 3.1 kernel is 15.4M in size, and the practical limit What do you have in your kernel?! My custom 3.1-stable kernel is only 1.3 meg and my GENERIC kernel is 2.2 meg. Are you sure your kernel isn't 1.54 Meg? > Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 17:54: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3D6152C2 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:53:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24111; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:52:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:52:55 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , Nik Clayton , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <36F6EF73.DBD601A8@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Wes, On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > Naysayer? Brett Taylor's done as much for FreeBSD advocacy as anyone > around in the last 6 months; any reader of Daemon News will assure you > that. I think he'd rather see people spend their time and energy on > efforts that do some good, than pissing in the wind on some Brett > Glass boondoggle. Thanks Wes. Well, I haven't been as effective as I'd like these last few months but I hope to have more time to devote to FreeBSD and Daemon News after April 6th (finger my peloton account and read my plan if you can't figure out why that date is important to me). By the end of the summer I hope to have 4 more machines here running FreeBSD (in a department that has been moving more towards Linux). (Wes will notice something familiar in the .project!) :-) Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 17:59:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F5114F59 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:59:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24148; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:58:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:58:09 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: Eric Wayte , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jasper O'Malley" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > It looks as if any attempt to spur advocacy for, or promotion of, > FreeBSD is doomed to failure in this group. No wonder FreeBSD is > falling into obscurity while Linux crushes everything in sight. How is it that not wanting to create a FreeBSD emulator for Linux is not doing advocacy? Jordan and others have pointed out many problems w/ your idea, not the least of which is that: - FreeBSD is a volunteer effort - the Linux emulation people are too busy to do a FreeBSD emulator for Linux, nor do they have interest in this - it's VERY unlikely that the various Linux distributions WANT or would ship a FreeBSD emulator - why would they? what native apps does FreeBSD have that Linux doesn't? It doesn't make business sense for them to want this. Go ask Red Hat about it if you don't believe me. - you want this, but it doesn't look like you're actually doing anything. You say you are working on getting an effort together but I haven't seen one hint of anything being done. Have you talked to Debian (whom you suggested) about it? Have you posted to -hackers to see if you could get help w/ it? (not that I've seen) This is no different than you wanting to have ports kept up to date for 2.2.8. Have you talked to Satoshi about doing this? Have you even laid out an idea of how to implement your idea of having the port system build for _any_ version of FreeBSD? Have you talked to Satoshi/Mike Smith about the new package system? If you really want to do this, _now_ is when to get going on it before the new package system comes out. People might take your ideas more seriously if you showed some work. Advocacy is NOT just about getting a Linux emulator. Chris Coleman and I, with others, started Daemon News. Dan Langille (if I misspelled your name Dan, I'm sorry) has the FreeBSD Diary which I think is a REALLY great resource. There's now freebsdrocks. There's the FreeBSDzine. Wes Peters has worked with the people who make Wingz (a spreadsheet) to put a "works with FreeBSD" sticker on their page. All of these ARE advocacy efforts. No one asked us to do these - we did them out of our desire to help FreeBSD (and all of the BSDs in the case of Daemon News). I haven't even mentioned all the people who help answer questions for people in -questions and give people an impression of better support than they get from M$ or Linux people. No one is stopping you from trying to make the FreeBSD emulator for Linux. People have tried to point out that it's unlikely to go anywhere as there's no enthusiasm for it except from you. That doesn't necessarily stop you from doing it. If you want it, go to it - as you're wont to say in your GPL vs BSD license rants, the code is there - do something with it. Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 18:23:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE72814F59 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:22:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.ddns.org) Received: from pechter.ddns.org (bg-tc-ppp930.monmouth.com [209.191.51.116]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA04304; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.ddns.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) id VAA23759; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:22:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199903230222.VAA23759@pechter.ddns.org> Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <43958.922144053@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 22, 1999 3: 7:33 pm" To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:22:29 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Actually, I think IBM showed it to be suicidal by not doing a very > good job of it in OS/2. Otherwise, it was a fine idea. The WINE and > WABI projects also did their best but failed (or are failing) because > they didn't do a good enough job, not because it was a bad job to try > and do. > - Jordan Actually their emulation is top rate for Win-16. The Win32 stuff was continuously screwed by Microsoft changing the Win32 out from under them. First they defined Win32s. Then they ignored it. By the time they hit Win32S 1.25 they pretty much guaranteed that IBM would have had to reverse engineer Win95 and NT to get it to work. --Bill Who still successfully runs Win16 apps (including full TCP/IP stuff) under OS/2 v4). --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.ddns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 18:23:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71690152FC for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:23:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA44647; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:22:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:14:59 MST." <4.2.0.32.19990322180649.040bf100@localhost> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:22:36 -0800 Message-ID: <44645.922155756@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It's easy to lay the strategic groundwork for this. Again, you're being > negative, and as "spiritual leader" of FreeBSD you're dampening enthusiasm > for something that's NECESSARY. No, I'm dampening enthusiasm for something that's stupid. It's not a good idea you say I'm trying to kill, it's a BAD idea, you just have it stuck in your head somehow that it's a good idea. Having strong preconceptions about something do not necessarily make it so. :-) In short, we agree only to disagree here. You say it's rocket fuel, I say it's bovine waste material, clearly we're not seeing things the same way here. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 18:30:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E59152BA for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:30:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-057.thuntek.net [207.66.52.57]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id TAA29868; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:30:07 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F6FC70.25E5C8C6@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:29:04 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Red Hat a mini Microsoft? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > > On 23-Mar-99 Donald Wilde wrote: > > It seems to me that we're already being pulled in that direction with > > FreeBSD. My latest 3.1 kernel is 15.4M in size, and the practical limit > > What do you have in your kernel?! My custom 3.1-stable kernel is only 1.3 meg > and my GENERIC kernel is 2.2 meg. Are you sure your kernel isn't 1.54 Meg? > ;-D -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 18:44:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E61C14BE7 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:44:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA27621; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:44:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322184253.03ec7590@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:49:18 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36F6EC9A.99FCEB7C@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19990321150512.03f85d40@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990322132103.03f66150@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990322154730.00ab0df0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:21 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >> "Compatibility?" Actually, they do claim some compatibility with Linux > >No, they don't. > >> They have published an ext2 file system >> driver that lets them mount Linux disk volumes. > >No, they haven't. One of their contributors has published an ext2 filesystem >driver. Others have published ports of many other GPL'd loadable drivers. >The drivers that are shipped with BeOS aren't. They tout it on their Web site as a compatibility feature; see http://www.be.com/beware/Add-Ons/Linux%20Ext2%20Filesystem.html and elsewhere. Also, I believe that this driver is part of their R4 distribution. (I'm not sure whether it's in the R3 distribution.) What's more, BeOS *can* load Linux device driver modules. But again, I don't know why you're hung up on the issue of "compatibility." I think you misunderstood my original message, in which I never used the word. >Funny, it seemed to me that he proposed BeOS pave the way for installation >of other operating systems like Linux. His real point was that *any* crack >in the wall will cause the dam to burst, it doesn't matter who makes the >crack. That's what his challenge to PC manufacturers is all about - to put >a crack in the wall. Alas, he's missing something. Just because there's a crack in the wall does not mean that his product is what's going to gush through. Linux is his mortal enemy. >If you think that, then you just don't understand either Linux or BeOS very >well. The fact that we do not agree on this point does not imply a lack of understanding of either operating system. > Nor do you understand how hard it is to make an operating system, >network box, or anything else that will keep up with video streams, regardless >of how much CPU horsepower you throw at them. I worked with Intel's DVI as far back as 1987. I'd say, offhand, that trying to do digital video at that early stage gave me a very good appreciation for the problem. But again, this is off topic. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 18:48:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E28B15210 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:48:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA27651; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:47:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322194610.03ec64a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:47:37 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: Brett Taylor , Nik Clayton , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36F6EF73.DBD601A8@softweyr.com> References: <19990322210958.A12575@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <4.2.0.32.19990322164637.040dd720@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:33 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >Naysayer? Brett Taylor's done as much for FreeBSD advocacy as anyone >around in the last 6 months; any reader of Daemon News will assure you >that. I think he'd rather see people spend their time and energy on >efforts that do some good, than pissing in the wind on some Brett Glass >boondoggle. Well, if his reception (and yours) are typical of what is presented toward those who are interested in helping, it's no wonder that little effective advocacy is getting done. You're about ready to drive me away from even attempting to do anything. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 18:57:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EEE01530D for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:57:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA27748; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:57:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322194937.03ee4600@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:56:56 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <44645.922155756@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:22 PM 3/22/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >No, I'm dampening enthusiasm for something that's stupid. It's not a >good idea you say I'm trying to kill, it's a BAD idea, I see. And your saying it just makes it so, despite ample historical evidence to the contrary. I'm beginning to think it's not worth even trying to talk sense to you folks regarding PR, much less contribute time or code. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 19:39:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from duey.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7EF314DC8 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:39:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07114; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:39:20 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:39:20 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: Brian Adkins Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RC5-64 Contest In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990322194631.00b19d10@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Brian Adkins wrote: > I don't see a problem with that - go ahead and run it on the Windows boxes > too - as long as a FreeBSD user is responsible for running the clients, it > seems ok to me :) > > It seems to work fine in the background on Windows boxes - it can be > configured to run hidden. Perfect.. I've stuck this in our NT domain login scripts just now. ;-> All in all there should be a couple hundred of machines ranging from 486SX-25's (I know... ewwww...) to PII-400's participating. Quite a few more fast machines will be able to participate once we get our new campus LAN in place this summer. I estimate about 25Mkeys/sec with all of the machines currently on our network participating. 50Mkeys/sec or more this summer. :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) ( http://www.freebsd.org ) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 20:26:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E75D514D38 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:26:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA10652 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:25:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990322230145.00f92480@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:26:09 -0500 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Adkins Subject: FreeBSD Support (was Re: Netscape browser ) In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:58 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >... >Chris Coleman and I, with others, started Daemon News. Dan Langille (if I >misspelled your name Dan, I'm sorry) has the FreeBSD Diary which I think >is a REALLY great resource. There's now freebsdrocks. There's the >FreeBSDzine. Wes Peters has worked with the people who make Wingz (a >spreadsheet) to put a "works with FreeBSD" sticker on their page. All of >these ARE advocacy efforts. No one asked us to do these - we did them out >of our desire to help FreeBSD (and all of the BSDs in the case of Daemon >News). I haven't even mentioned all the people who help answer questions >for people in -questions and give people an impression of better support >than they get from M$ or Linux people. When I was evaluating FreeBSD (just last week), one of the things that *really* impressed me was the response time on answers to my newbie questions. I was stuck on something at 4:00 am. EST and I fired off a question to freebsd-questions and got several responses that solved the problem in less than an hour! I've had technical support contracts from IBM when I worked on mainframes and from Microsoft and I've *never* had such timely support. In fact, even though my company was paying something like $16,000 per year to Microsoft for support, I inevitably solved the problem through much pain before Microsoft would get back to me with someone that had any degree of clue. I'm relatively new to open source operating systems and I've been thinking about the factors that are relative to the success or failure of operating systems. I've come to the preliminary conclusion that the rules of the game are *very* different for open source OS's. With commercial endeavors such as Windows NT or OS/2, I believe it's more of a zero-sum game. In other words, a win for one commercial OS is a loss for another. With open source OS's, I feel it's more a case of "all ships rise with the tide". Does the success of another free OS hurt FreeBSD? Are people concerned with the amount of PR and momentum that Linux is getting? If marketing and momentum made a good operating system then Microsoft's OS's would be the best - right? Maybe I should ask a fundamental question. What is the goal of the advocacy group specifically, and the FreeBSD organization in general? Is it to attract as many ISV's as possible? Is it to run on the widest variety of hardware? If it is, then I totally misread the philosophy of this group and probably picked the wrong OS ;) Brian Adkins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 20:54:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FA21523C for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:54:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22938 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:53:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA30336 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:53:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:53:44 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Possible logo images for branding... Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the archives I didn't see any actual logos come out of the branding discussion. I don't know if Chuck pics are an option or not, but if they are I have some simple possibilites that I whipped up in the GIMP in about ten minutes at http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/freebsd.html. --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 21: 8:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFF231558F for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:08:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05612; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:07:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:07:05 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990322194937.03ee4600@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > I'm beginning to think it's not worth even trying to talk sense to you > folks regarding PR, much less contribute time or code. You've suggested the following things that I remember recently: - that the Linux emulator has been bad for FreeBSD This is contrary to every person I've hooked on FreeBSD. They appreciate the fact that its stable AND that they can run the preponderance of Linux apps that are available. - that the ports tree should support every version of FreeBSD I asked if you'd even approached Satoshi or Mike Smith about your idea, since they are working on the new package system. You haven't answered that yet. Do you have anything in mind other than this vague, if not noble, idea, like how possibly to implement it? Do you _really_ understand how the current ports system works? That's step one. Talking to Mike and/or Satoshi is step 2. And not just "I'd like to have X happen," wo/ any idea how to implement it. - that a FreeBSD emulator should be created for Linux in the hopes that this would make people write directly for FreeBSD You are the _only_ one I've heard support this. Not one person to my recall has suggested this is a workable idea other than you. Sure it'd be nice if every app was built to run natively on FreeBSD, but it's not reality nor is that likely to change just because an emulator exists. Companies will say "sure there's this FreeBSD emulator for Linux, but they have roughly 1/6th the number of installations _and_ can emulate Linux. Let's just write for Linux." Linux people will certainly not drop writing for the Linux API just because there's suddenly a FreeBSD emulator and if you really believe that ... The problem Brett is that all of the things you have suggested/proposed have _no_ backing from anyone but you (for whatever reasons), I believe because they sound mostly like ideas wo/ any real plan on how to do it. I'd love to see a ports mechanism that supports all the FreeBSD versions (at least back to 2.2.8), but I doubt it'll ever happen. There just aren't people to work on it. You keep saying you'll write code but I'm not even convinced you have a clear idea of how you even want to start this ports project you suggested. Even if you couldn't do this, you could, in a relatively easy manner (at least compared to this nebulous porting mechanism) try to just maintain a tree of ports that are up-to-date for 2.2.8. You'd never be able to do it alone, but I'm sure if you asked nicely and had some, say 10, people who were really dedicated it could be done w/ a lot of work. As it is I haven't even seen you attempt to fix or maintain one port. I suggested doing libgtop. You refused that because "it's GPL." I got news for you - people want to run Gnome (go see -questions or -ports for an idea of how many people are trying to get them to compile) and Gnome needs glibtop. If it's still such a personal affront to you to maintain/fix a port that is GPL'ed go find a port that you use that has: MAINTAINER= ports@freebsd.org that isn't GPL'ed and maintain it. As I told you before, there are lots, 145 in my tree (wo/ any of the foreign language ports), of ports which need maintainers. Maintaining a single port would be a great way for you to get a good introductory knowledge of how the ports system works and how you might be able to implement your idea. Heck Bill Fenner sends out a "homeless ports that need help" list once a week. Pick one from the list and fix it. Often times it just needs to have the distfile updated. But again, you haven't even done that. Since you've been posting regularly to -advocacy, the only thing I've seen from you is grandiose ideas and no clear idea how to implement them or even willingness to do any work as simple as it may be (such as maintaining a port or fixing it so it will work for 2.2.8). Jordan hit it on the head when he said you just seem to shoot from the hip, seeing what you hit. Brett Taylor *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 21:42:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D228914CEE for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:42:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA29105; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:42:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990322221248.03ebdf10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:42:20 -0700 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , wes@softweyr.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990322194937.03ee4600@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:07 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >You've suggested the following things that I remember recently: > > - that the Linux emulator has been bad for FreeBSD It has. Unequivocally. Oh, a few people have found it useful as a stopgap, but it is the ultimate reason for developers NEVER to target the platform and is thus horribly and irreparably destructive. Has no one here learned from OS/2? Read my lips: emulating a more popular platform is suicide. What part of that sentence don't you understand? > - that the ports tree should support every version of FreeBSD Not what I advocated. I noted that ports for 2.2.8-RELEASE were no longer being maintained less than two months after it shipped. What I advocated was that the ports tree support a release for at least 6 months after it shipped. Otherwise, every release is automatically an "orphan." This is unprofessional AND bad PR-wise. WHATEVER has to be done to prevent that should be done. Period. Take your choice of technical approaches. > - that a FreeBSD emulator should be created for Linux in the hopes > that this would make people write directly for FreeBSD > >You are the _only_ one I've heard support this. Not one person to my >recall has suggested this is a workable idea other than you. Bull. Terry Lambert has also supported this idea, and I've seen messages from one or two other folks that were at least somewhat supportive. But, of course, the naysayers are more vocal, because it's easier to advocate doing nothing than to help change things for the better. And a lot of folks walk away if support for an idea isn't unanimous, or nearly so. > Sure it'd be >nice if every app was built to run natively on FreeBSD, but it's not >reality nor is that likely to change just because an emulator exists. It is not even POSSIBLE unless an emulator exists. >Companies will say "sure there's this FreeBSD emulator for Linux, but they >have roughly 1/6th the number of installations _and_ can emulate Linux. The latter is the bigger problem. Again, Linux emulation has been a huge blow to the platform. At some point, after Linux emulates FreeBSD and FreeBSD wins native ports, FreeBSD's emulation of Linux should be deprecated. >The problem Brett is that all of the things you have suggested/proposed >have _no_ backing from anyone but you (for whatever reasons), Bull. However, it's a well-known online phenomenon that once the flamers (such as yourself) get going, those in support of an idea tend to be dissuaded from voicing their support because they don't want to be flamed. Or, again, they change their minds when they see that support for the idea isn't unanimous, or because an "opinion leader" (such as Jordan) has said something against it. >As it is I haven't even seen you attempt to fix or maintain one port. And I may never attempt it. You are very quickly convincing me that my efforts will be unwelcome or unappreciated. >Since you've been posting regularly to -advocacy, the only thing I've seen >from you is grandiose ideas Not "grandiose" -- however, they do require a team of people to do. That's why I've posted messages asking for support. By not only refusing to support them but attempting to shoot them down, you are telling me -- on behalf of the Cabal of FreeBSD Insiders -- that there's no point in attempting to work on advocacy or even contributing code. Fine. Then I won't. You can have your status quo and your failing efforts at PR. I'll stick with the local users' group and will probably finish the NIC driver I've been working on, but don't expect more from me, since it's clearly unwelcome. Brett, Jordan, Wes: you've just alienated a contributor who's already done a lot of advocacy and wanted to do more -- plus a bunch of coding besides. I hope you're proud. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 22:31: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D778014D96 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:31:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990323063144.BAMM4957949.mta1-rme@wocker>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:31:44 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: John Baldwin , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:30:37 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Possible logo images for branding... Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990323063144.BAMM4957949.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 22 Mar 99, at 23:53, John Baldwin wrote: > In the archives I didn't see any actual logos come out of the branding > discussion. I don't know if Chuck pics are an option or not, but if they are I > have some simple possibilites that I whipped up in the GIMP in about ten > minutes at http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/freebsd.html. The design looks good to me. The colours seem faded though. Might be my age. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 22:34:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115E014F7D for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:34:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA29920; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:33:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990323010146.00fbf1c0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:33:54 -0500 To: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990322221248.03ebdf10@localhost> References: <4.2.0.32.19990322194937.03ee4600@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:42 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >At 10:07 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >>You've suggested the following things that I remember recently: >> >> - that the Linux emulator has been bad for FreeBSD > >It has. Unequivocally. Oh, a few people have found it useful as >a stopgap, but it is the ultimate reason for developers NEVER to >target the platform and is thus horribly and irreparably >destructive. Brett, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but if you want folks to take you seriously, you're going to have to stop making such outlandish statements. If you really think developers will "NEVER" target a platform because an emulator exists, you're clueless. And as far as "irreparably destructive", you're losin' it dude. >Has no one here learned from OS/2? Read my lips: emulating a >more popular platform is suicide. What part of that sentence >don't you understand? Are you really suggesting that OS/2's main problem was the fact that it emulated Windows? Please. >> - that a FreeBSD emulator should be created for Linux in the hopes >> that this would make people write directly for FreeBSD >> >>You are the _only_ one I've heard support this. Not one person to my >>recall has suggested this is a workable idea other than you. > >Bull. Terry Lambert has also supported this idea, and I've seen >messages from one or two other folks that were at least somewhat >supportive. But, of course, the naysayers are more vocal, because >it's easier to advocate doing nothing than to help change things for >the better. And a lot of folks walk away if support for an idea >isn't unanimous, or nearly so. Where are you coming from man? Do you really think the naysayers are such because it's *easier* to advocate doing nothing? Do you really think they aren't helping change things for the better just because they aren't supporting your idea? How egocentric are you? >> Sure it'd be >>nice if every app was built to run natively on FreeBSD, but it's not >>reality nor is that likely to change just because an emulator exists. > >It is not even POSSIBLE unless an emulator exists. > >>Companies will say "sure there's this FreeBSD emulator for Linux, but they >>have roughly 1/6th the number of installations _and_ can emulate Linux. > >The latter is the bigger problem. Again, Linux emulation has been a huge >blow to the platform. At some point, after Linux emulates FreeBSD and FreeBSD >wins native ports, FreeBSD's emulation of Linux should be deprecated. It is not a fact that Linux emulation has not been a "huge blow" to the platform; it's your opinion. >>The problem Brett is that all of the things you have suggested/proposed >>have _no_ backing from anyone but you (for whatever reasons), > >Bull. However, it's a well-known online phenomenon that once the flamers >(such as yourself) get going, those in support of an idea tend to be >dissuaded from voicing their support because they don't want to be flamed. >Or, again, they change their minds when they see that support for the >idea isn't unanimous, or because an "opinion leader" (such as Jordan) >has said something against it. Geez! Now you're accusing folks who don't support you of being cowards! The great thing about an OS such as FreeBSD is that you've got the source code dude! I think your energies would be better spent producing architecture and design documents that could be reviewed - ideas get much clearer when expressed in a concise fashion. >>As it is I haven't even seen you attempt to fix or maintain one port. > >And I may never attempt it. You are very quickly convincing me that >my efforts will be unwelcome or unappreciated. Don't be ridiculous! Of course the effort would be appreciated (just not the talk). >>Since you've been posting regularly to -advocacy, the only thing I've seen >>from you is grandiose ideas > >Not "grandiose" -- however, they do require a team of people to do. That's >why I've posted messages asking for support. By not only refusing to support >them but attempting to shoot them down, you are telling me -- on behalf >of the Cabal of FreeBSD Insiders -- that there's no point in attempting to >work >on advocacy or even contributing code. Fine. Then I won't. You can have your >status quo and your failing efforts at PR. I'll stick with the local users' >group and will probably finish the NIC driver I've been working on, but don't >expect more from me, since it's clearly unwelcome. Gee, I haven't seen anyone tell you not to work on advocacy or contribute code. >Brett, Jordan, Wes: you've just alienated a contributor who's already done a >lot >of advocacy and wanted to do more -- plus a bunch of coding besides. I hope >you're >proud. > >--Brett Glass I have to admit I think you're alienating yourself and if you're only willing to work on the project if everyone agrees with your ideas, then I think you're in for a disappointment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 22:38:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B95EF1532A for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:38:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id WAA77160; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:38:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:38:11 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@bafug.org Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Crashing the Mozilla party Message-ID: <19990322223811.A77091@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Netscape is going to be throwing a party for the first anniversary of the release of the netscape code, AKA Mozilla. The party is on Thursday, April 1st. at the Sound Factory in San Francisco. Free admission and a cash bar. More details can be found at http://www.mozilla.org/party/1999/ This would be a good opportunity to promote FreeBSD. I have, thanks to Walnut Creek CDROM, about 150 3.0 boot CDs and sleeves. Note, this is CD #1 only. I can't make the party since my daughter is coming in from Minneapolis but I would be interested in organizing a group of FreeBSD people to go to the party and passout FreeBSD CDs. Anybody who is interested please email me. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 22:56:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF5214D40 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:56:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA05725; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA09210; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:56:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990323063144.BAMM4957949.mta1-rme@wocker> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:56:20 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Dan Langille Subject: Re: Possible logo images for branding... Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 23-Mar-99 Dan Langille wrote: > On 22 Mar 99, at 23:53, John Baldwin wrote: > >> In the archives I didn't see any actual logos come out of the branding >> discussion. I don't know if Chuck pics are an option or not, but if they >> are I >> have some simple possibilites that I whipped up in the GIMP in about ten >> minutes at http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/freebsd.html. > > The design looks good to me. The colours seem faded though. Might be my > age. At Wes Peters' suggestion, I did brighten up the colors on Chuck a bit. Also, the text was a bit fuzzy in the first rendition and should be clearer now, so check 'em out again and see if they are any better this time around. :) Thanks. > -- > Dan Langille > The FreeBSD Diary > http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 23: 7:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD78E15391 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA06055; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:06:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:06:33 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990322221248.03ebdf10@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett, On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:07 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: > > >You've suggested the following things that I remember recently: > > > > - that the Linux emulator has been bad for FreeBSD > It has. Unequivocally. Oh, a few people have found it useful as > a stopgap, but it is the ultimate reason for developers NEVER to > target the platform and is thus horribly and irreparably > destructive. Please define few. Would you like to tell all the people playing Quake or Doom that Linux emulation is useless (or who are using their machines as Quake servers)? Is it useless for people who want Acrobat Reader so they can see PDF files? Is it useless for people who want to use an HTML editor and choose asWedit? Is it useless for those who want to use Word Perfect? Is it useless for those who want to use Star Office? Oracle? Every person I've turned on to FreeBSD, and I mean EVERYONE, appreciates the Linux emulation. The simple fact is that wo/ it they would be running Linux. It's the one reason my advisor is likely to use FreeBSD - we need Mathematica for our research. There is no FreeBSD version. There is however a Linux version. He can either run the Linux version on FreeBSD or run it under Linux. Which would you prefer? > Has no one here learned from OS/2? Read my lips: emulating a more > popular platform is suicide. What part of that sentence don't you > understand? You're looking very selectively at the OS/2 story. They stopped being a viable desktop OS because they stopped emulating/couldn't emulate W95 apps. Yes, that's because M$ kept moving their standards. And OS/2 is still a viable and widely-used business OS. I know for a fact that nationwide State Farm uses it still in all of their regional offices. I have a friend who stuck w/ OS/2 until he just couldn't run the apps he wanted anymore because they needed W95. I then moved him to FreeBSD. He would have certainly run Linux wo/ the emulation. Linux may be able to move their ABI around but we'll still be able to emulate because it's open source. Face it - Linux is bigger. Companies will write their software for Linux until FreeBSD has the numbers to support a native port. > Not what I advocated. I noted that ports for 2.2.8-RELEASE were no > longer being maintained less than two months after it shipped. What I > advocated was that the ports tree support a release for at least 6 > months after it shipped. Otherwise, every release is automatically an > "orphan." We've been through this before and I didn't think it would be necessary to go over this again, but ... The ports for 2.2.8 are there, on CD or at Walnut Creek. Most of the current ports tree will still work under 2.2.8 (there are certainly exceptions). If people want newer versions, they are stuck w/ the fact that the ports tree has moved on and they may need to track the ports tree. They may also, if they are using an old release, regardless of how "old" it is, may have to do some work to get it to work right. No different than if a person using a Windows 3.1 app had to upgrade and the next version available is W95/8. > Take your choice of technical approaches. Which are? You keep saying you have ideas but I've seen no clear layout of your idea to do this. And you still have not answered me as to whether you have done anything other than talk about this. Have you talked to Mike Smith or Satoshi Asami? Have you even got a clear idea of what you intend to do or how to do it? > >Re: the FreeBSD emulator for Linux > >You are the _only_ one I've heard support this. Not one person to my > >recall has suggested this is a workable idea other than you. > Bull. Terry Lambert has also supported this idea, and I've seen > messages from one or two other folks that were at least somewhat > supportive. I said to my recall. I now recall Terry saying something but not what he said. > But, of course, the naysayers are more vocal, because it's easier to > advocate doing nothing than to help change things for the better. And > a lot of folks walk away if support for an idea isn't unanimous, or > nearly so. And even more people walk away when it appears to be just talk because you've never backed up any of these ideas with anything concrete that I know of. > It is not even POSSIBLE unless an emulator exists. Can you explain to me why a company would want to encumber the majority of their user base with an additional piece of software, that the company needs to maintain (or at least keep updated assuming we have some team doing this)? How is this profitable for them? How does this help them in any way? > > Companies will say "sure there's this FreeBSD emulator for Linux, but > > they have roughly 1/6th the number of installations _and_ can emulate > > Linux. > The latter is the bigger problem. Again, Linux emulation has been a > huge blow to the platform. At some point, after Linux emulates FreeBSD > and FreeBSD wins native ports, FreeBSD's emulation of Linux should be > deprecated. What? No the problem is this - simple supply and demand. Linux has the user base and hence the demand. FreeBSD, better though I may think it is, does not have the numbers. Software companies are killing 2 birds with one stone. Is it hurting FreeBSD to have emulation? How? I, or you, can run software that would NOT otherwise be possible wo/ the Linux emulation. FreeBSD does _not_ have enough user base for most software companies to want to write native code to. Until we gain that user base we're not even a blip on their radar. > >The problem Brett is that all of the things you have suggested/proposed > >have _no_ backing from anyone but you (for whatever reasons), > Bull. However, it's a well-known online phenomenon that once the > flamers (such as yourself) get going, those in support of an idea tend > to be dissuaded from voicing their support because they don't want to > be flamed. I've flamed you how? I've called you no names. I haven't screamed that you're ranting. I said you seem to have ideas, but you haven't done any work to try to get them implemented. I've asked you multiple times about whether you have approached Satoshi about keeping the ports tree working for 2.2.8. Have you even done that? That's not coding, it's not even planning. You said you wanted permission to look into it? Have you asked for it? > >As it is I haven't even seen you attempt to fix or maintain one port. > And I may never attempt it. You are very quickly convincing me that my > efforts will be unwelcome or unappreciated. What part of "there are 145 ports that need maintainers" sounds like that help would be unappreciated? I have 2 ports that are broken right now because the distfiles have gone belly up, but I haven't had time to fix them. I could use help getting those fixed. Really all they need is a distfile fix and (maybe) a new home for the distfiles. As it is they won't likely get fixed until after I defend my Ph.D. You don't need permission to submit a port upgrade. You just do it. > >Since you've been posting regularly to -advocacy, the only thing I've seen > >from you is grandiose ideas > Not "grandiose" -- however, they do require a team of people to do. > That's why I've posted messages asking for support. "Grandiose" was probably a bad word. You've suggested a number of ideas. I agree with your ports idea, at the very least. However all of these take manpower as you note. In the ports case, the ports team is swamped now. There are a couple of hundred ports PRs sitting in GNATs right now. There is no way they could have a current ports tree working for 2.2.8. Here's where a single person could help by finding ports that don't work for 2.2.8 (check the PR's for reports of failures) and attempt to make them work. It's simple, easy and would be appreciated. In terms of the emulation thing, it's clear you have a very different idea compared to almost everyone else about the worth of emulating Linux. Fine - the code is there. Find people who want to help, maybe Terry, get help from Linux users or a distribution and get started. Again, you don't need approval from the core team, or me, or Jordan or Wes to do it. No one is stopping you. I'd love to be proved wrong and see all the software coded for FreeBSD directly. > By not only refusing to support them but attempting to shoot them > down, you are telling me -- on behalf of the Cabal of FreeBSD Insiders > -- that there's no point in attempting to work on advocacy or even > contributing code. Fine. Then I won't. You can have your status quo > and your failing efforts at PR. I certainly wouldn't consider myself a "FreeBSD Insider." I have no commit privileges. Am I a supporter of FreeBSD? Sure - I helped create Daemon News; I maintain 10 or so ports; I introduce friends, acquaintances and colleagues to FreeBSD. I moved our dept. server to FreeBSD from Linux and am teaching the sys admin to follow her way around the machine. I've installed FreeBSD on my advisor's computer and convinced him to put it on his workstation. I've installed FreeBSD on a friend's computer. I answer questions that I know the answer to on the mailing lists. That seems like pretty good PR to me, even if it isn't on the front page of some newspaper. > Brett, Jordan, Wes: you've just alienated a contributor who's already > done a lot of advocacy and wanted to do more -- plus a bunch of coding > besides. I hope you're proud. I really like your articles Brett. Most of the time they appear sane and clearheaded, but everytime I've seen you in a discussion, even when I'm not involved, you turn into Mr. Hyde. If you don't want to contribute, fine. No one's forcing you to. If you code something that'd be great. I'm sure the core team would love to have the driver. Brett Taylor *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 23: 8:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-36.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 676A81533D for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:07:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA01845; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:03:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:03:32 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: Brett Taylor Cc: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > You've suggested the following things that I remember recently: > > - that the Linux emulator has been bad for FreeBSD > > This is contrary to every person I've hooked on FreeBSD. They appreciate > the fact that its stable AND that they can run the preponderance of Linux > apps that are available. I know this is probably a bad thing to do without full body abestos.. but I'd have to agree with the other Brett here, sorta. I really think the Linux emulator is nifty and a great tool and has been useful to me on a few occasions (StarOffice5.. *drool*). But conversly I think it has overall been a bad thing for FreeBSD. It discourages people from creating native fbsd binaries. Look at the blade mp3 encoder. Instead of lobbying the author to make a fbsd version once the BSD/OS one would no longer work, many people instead said oh let's just use the Linux version. You can stick your head in the sand a much as you want, but the sky still hasn't fallen. > - that the ports tree should support every version of FreeBSD Again this would just rock, but it seems to me more like a pipe dream. But what if fetch was made into a port? This way things would be given a fighting chance. Besides how many ports that use flags that work only with the new binutils would even work with a.out binaries? > - that a FreeBSD emulator should be created for Linux in the hopes > that this would make people write directly for FreeBSD How about this. Hack up a mini FreeBSD kernel to run under Win98 and serve as a FreeBSD emulator for Win98? Screw Win32! ;) - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 23:10:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-36.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED8815369 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:10:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA01858; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:07:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:07:42 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: Brian Adkins Cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990323010146.00fbf1c0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Brian Adkins wrote: > Brett, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but if you want folks to take you > seriously, you're going to have to stop making such outlandish statements. > If you really think developers will "NEVER" target a platform because an > emulator exists, you're clueless. And as far as "irreparably destructive", > you're losin' it dude. Look at Netscape, or Oracle for that matter. It was hard enough to get them to port to Linux, but, with a perfectly working Linux emulator, do you really think that they'd publically release a FreeBSD version knowing full well that their Linux binaries should run fine on FreeBSD? - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 23:25:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4C31534B for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:24:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA06133; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:23:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:23:48 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > I know this is probably a bad thing to do without full body abestos.. > but I'd have to agree with the other Brett here, sorta. > But conversly I think it has overall been a bad thing for FreeBSD. > It discourages people from creating native fbsd binaries. Look at the > blade mp3 encoder. Instead of lobbying the author to make a fbsd > version once the BSD/OS one would no longer work, many people instead > said oh let's just use the Linux version. This has nothing to do w/ the emulator. If people WANT FreeBSD binaries then they have to ask and push and prod the author to give them to us. If people don't push to have them we won't get them until we have a big enough user base that the author thinks of it. Having a FreeBSD emulator for Linux doesn't alleviate the above situation at all. Brett Taylor *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 22 23:53: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3121F1564A for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:52:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990323075341.BOOK4957949.mta1-rme@wocker>; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:53:41 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: John Baldwin Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:52:49 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Possible logo images for branding... Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-reply-to: References: <19990323063144.BAMM4957949.mta1-rme@wocker> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990323075341.BOOK4957949.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 23 Mar 99, at 1:56, John Baldwin wrote: > On 23-Mar-99 Dan Langille wrote: > > On 22 Mar 99, at 23:53, John Baldwin wrote: > > > >> In the archives I didn't see any actual logos come out of the branding > >> discussion. I don't know if Chuck pics are an option or not, but if they > >> are I > >> have some simple possibilites that I whipped up in the GIMP in about ten > >> minutes at http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/freebsd.html. > > > > The design looks good to me. The colours seem faded though. Might be my > > age. > > At Wes Peters' suggestion, I did brighten up the colors on Chuck a bit. Also, > the text was a bit fuzzy in the first rendition and should be clearer now, so > check 'em out again and see if they are any better this time around. :) > Thanks. This is different, but it's not bright like http://www.freebsd.org/gifs/powerlogo.gif Yours is more like http://www.freebsd.org/gifs/dae_up2.gif I prefer the colour of the first. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 0:25: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-36.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E1DB1521A for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:25:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA09826; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:24:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:24:38 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: Brett Taylor Cc: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > This has nothing to do w/ the emulator. If people WANT FreeBSD binaries > then they have to ask and push and prod the author to give them to us. > If people don't push to have them we won't get them until we have a big > enough user base that the author thinks of it. Having a FreeBSD emulator > for Linux doesn't alleviate the above situation at all. If it creates a stable ABI/API for a programmer to use, then yes it very well might alleviate the situation at hand. That said, IMO there are much better things to spend time on (read: NFS, PAM, etc). - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 3:31:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DF614C8A for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:31:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id MAA71432; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:30:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: [Christiane Holtzman ] RE: FreeBSD as a host OS From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Mar 1999 12:30:55 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 46 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Message-ID: <01BE747F.0D520420.christiane@vmware.com> From: Christiane Holtzman Reply-To: "christiane@vmware.com" To: "'Dag-Erling Smorgrav'" , "sales@vmware.com" , "tech_info@vmware.com" Subject: RE: FreeBSD as a host OS Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:14:23 -0800 Organization: VMware Dag-Erling, Thank you for your nice comments. I fully understand your desire for a FreeBSD version of our product. We have received a lot of requests for that port (as well as requests for other ports and features). Our plans are to expand our product as much as possible, but one step at a time after we ship VMware for Linux and VMware for Windows NT. Sincerely, Christiane Holtzman VMware, Inc. On Saturday, March 20, 1999 6:24 AM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav [SMTP:des@flood.ping.uio.no] wrote: > Hi, > > After reading your FAQ and product specs, I am convinced that VMWare > is the best thing since sliced bread. However, I am very disappointed > that you have no plans to support FreeBSD as a host OS; if you did, I > would gladly pre-order a copy. > > I am quite certain that the FreeBSD development team will be happy to > provide any technical assistance needed in porting VMWare to FreeBSD. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no ------- End of forwarded message ------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 4:36:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB1914CE0 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 04:36:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA16692; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA08714; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:36:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990323075341.BOOK4957949.mta1-rme@wocker> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:36:22 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Dan Langille Subject: Re: Possible logo images for branding... Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, John Baldwin Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 23-Mar-99 Dan Langille wrote: > On 23 Mar 99, at 1:56, John Baldwin wrote: > >> On 23-Mar-99 Dan Langille wrote: >> > On 22 Mar 99, at 23:53, John Baldwin wrote: >> > >> >> In the archives I didn't see any actual logos come out of the branding >> >> discussion. I don't know if Chuck pics are an option or not, but if they >> >> are I >> >> have some simple possibilites that I whipped up in the GIMP in about ten >> >> minutes at http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/freebsd.html. >> > >> > The design looks good to me. The colours seem faded though. Might be my >> > age. >> >> At Wes Peters' suggestion, I did brighten up the colors on Chuck a bit. >> Also, >> the text was a bit fuzzy in the first rendition and should be clearer now, >> so >> check 'em out again and see if they are any better this time around. :) >> Thanks. > > This is different, but it's not bright like > > http://www.freebsd.org/gifs/powerlogo.gif > > Yours is more like > > http://www.freebsd.org/gifs/dae_up2.gif > > I prefer the colour of the first. It was originally that color, the source is at: http://www.freebsd.org/gifs/daemon.gif However, it was too dark on the white background, so it needed to be brightened. I've sharpened up the picture, which should help some, and now you can pick which direction you want him to be facing. > -- > Dan Langille > The FreeBSD Diary > http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 5:19: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from enterprise.sanyusan.se (enterprise.sanyusan.se [195.24.160.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C01DF14C32 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 05:19:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anders@enterprise.sanyusan.se) Received: (from anders@localhost) by enterprise.sanyusan.se (8.9.2/8.9.2) id OAA00587; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:17:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anders) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:17:39 +0100 From: Anders Andersson To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: dbaker@distributed.net, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RC5-64 Contest Message-ID: <19990323141739.A546@sanyusan.se> References: <4.1.19990321012057.00fa7680@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzpogll8lp9=2Efsf=40flood=2Eping=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Dag-Erling_Smorgrav_on_M=E5n=2C_Mar_22=2C_1999_at_06:42:?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?58pm_+0100?= Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@flood.ping.uio.no) [990322 19:09]: > > Perhaps whoever "owns" freebsd@distributed.net should have that user > join Team FreeBSD - then contributing to that team would be as simple > as "make install clean" in /usr/ports/misc/rc5des. That sounds like a great idea, I wonder why it wasnt done in the first place. Cheers Anders -- -------------------------------------------------------- Anders Andersson anders@sanyusan.se Sanyusan International AB http://www.sanyusan.se/ Västgötagatan 11 Tel: +46-(0)31-168730 411 39 Gothenburg, SWEDEN Fax: +46-(0)31-209361 -------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 7: 6:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8DA7152FE for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:06:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-055.thuntek.net [207.66.52.55]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA04472; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:06:22 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F7AD75.1EE288FA@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:04:21 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Adkins Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Support (was Re: Netscape browser ) References: <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> <4.1.19990322230145.00f92480@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Adkins wrote: > > At 06:58 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: > >... > >Chris Coleman and I, with others, started Daemon News. [snip] > When I was evaluating FreeBSD (just last week), one of the things that > *really* impressed me was the response time on answers to my newbie > questions. I was stuck on something at 4:00 am. EST and I fired off a > question to freebsd-questions and got several responses that solved the > problem in less than an hour! I've had technical support contracts from > IBM when I worked on mainframes and from Microsoft and I've *never* had > such timely support. In fact, even though my company was paying something > like $16,000 per year to Microsoft for support, I inevitably solved the > problem through much pain before Microsoft would get back to me with > someone that had any degree of clue. Can we use this as a 'testimonial' quote, Brian? It's actually rather normal, because there's another advocate out there named Doug White who's supported by his graduate advisor (God, it's been five years now. Are you a PhD yet, Doug?) and many others who make it their 'business' to support FreeBSD. > > I'm relatively new to open source operating systems and I've been thinking > about the factors that are relative to the success or failure of operating > systems. I've come to the preliminary conclusion that the rules of the > game are *very* different for open source OS's. With commercial endeavors > such as Windows NT or OS/2, I believe it's more of a zero-sum game. In > other words, a win for one commercial OS is a loss for another. With open > source OS's, I feel it's more a case of "all ships rise with the tide". > We agree. Linux guys and our developers routinely talk, and each borrows from the success of the other. The Linux kernel development team, for example, is discussing building a "core" team to manage the development with the same kind of release logistics. > Does the success of another free OS hurt FreeBSD? Are people concerned No, not at all. FreeBSD is growing in prominence because of Linux' publicity. Our guys are out there pushing, and it's usually now 'Linux or FreeBSD'. > with the amount of PR and momentum that Linux is getting? If marketing and > momentum made a good operating system then Microsoft's OS's would be the > best - right? ROFLVVH... sigh. I have pet metaphor that I like to trot out in tiimes like this. Microsoft and Sun and AOL are the big Dinosaurs, stomping around trying to achieve and hold Market Share. We are the small furry mammals. Some of us may get stomped on, but eventually we will pick their bones as carrion. There will ultimately be a realization among users that free software (whatever the 'brand') offers as much and much much more of what they really need: dependability and adaptability to their needs. Very few users will become kernel developers (I'm definitely not one... yet), but it will become important too them to know that there are hundreds out there all over the world snooping the code for bugs and inefficiencies. Can you think of a better test for a firewall's security than to withstand attack from crackers who have the _source_code_? > > Maybe I should ask a fundamental question. What is the goal of the > advocacy group specifically, and the FreeBSD organization in general? Is > it to attract as many ISV's as possible? Is it to run on the widest > variety of hardware? If it is, then I totally misread the philosophy of > this group and probably picked the wrong OS ;) > FreeBSD is specifically optimized for i86 hardware. There are two ports in development for others, but we leave portability to our NetBSD _friends_. We are looking for ISV's to port, of course, and we are looking for hardware suppliers, _of_course_, but the primary job of all of us is to get the word out about one of the greatest gifts mankind has ever given itself. Raising visibility is a major effort, and very few get any compensation beyond gratification (and a better OS) from adding to the user base. We are also here to help each other maximize our benefit from the software, by starting efforts that make it easier to use and better. The FreeBSD Project itself has three main goals: to keep it from coming apart and to keep improving it and to keep the user base growing. Walnut Creek CD-ROM, a major sponsor of the Project, would obviously like to sell more CD-ROMs but their support goes far beyond that. They are very close to hiring an outside consultant to promote FreeBSD as a job. One thing the Project is NOT, and I think I can speak for everyone, is a commercial effort. It is and always will be a free operating system. The BSD license is specifically designed to allow people to build Yahoo!s and even to repackage BSD and call it FUBAR if they choose. That is fine. In our view, only the rich have the free time to be philanthropists, so we are glad when somebody makes a bundle through the use of FreeBSD. One of my personal efforts is to increase the visibility of FreeBSD in the former Soviet Union and China. Having visited both places, I know how much it can help them to bootstrap themselves out of disasters caused by their governments. (not that we don't have the same need here!) My personal goal is nothing short of making payware obsolete for anything other than specialized purposes. > Brian Adkins > As Kirk McKusick says, welcome to the BSD community, Brian! -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 7:31:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA654154BB for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:31:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id AAA06890; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:30:45 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36F791F2.B9FC047@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:06:58 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Eric Wayte , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jasper O'Malley" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.2.0.32.19990322160933.00aaf6c0@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > It looks as if any attempt to spur advocacy for, or promotion of, FreeBSD > is doomed to failure in this group. No wonder FreeBSD is falling into > obscurity while Linux crushes everything in sight. All evidence to the contrary... :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Someone's trying to hack into our server." "Wow... How flattering!" "I know. There must be some mistake." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 7:33:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB1F154B5 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:33:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA14882; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:32:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990323101745.01513a50@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:29:33 -0500 To: Donald Wilde From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: FreeBSD Support (was Re: Netscape browser ) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36F7AD75.1EE288FA@thuntek.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> <4.1.19990322230145.00f92480@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:04 AM 3/23/99 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >> At 06:58 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >> >... >> >Chris Coleman and I, with others, started Daemon News. >[snip] >> When I was evaluating FreeBSD (just last week), one of the things that >> *really* impressed me was the response time on answers to my newbie >> questions. I was stuck on something at 4:00 am. EST and I fired off a >> question to freebsd-questions and got several responses that solved the >> problem in less than an hour! I've had technical support contracts from >> IBM when I worked on mainframes and from Microsoft and I've *never* had >> such timely support. In fact, even though my company was paying something >> like $16,000 per year to Microsoft for support, I inevitably solved the >> problem through much pain before Microsoft would get back to me with >> someone that had any degree of clue. > >Can we use this as a 'testimonial' quote, Brian? Sure! >> Maybe I should ask a fundamental question. What is the goal of the >> advocacy group specifically, and the FreeBSD organization in general? Is >> it to attract as many ISV's as possible? Is it to run on the widest >> variety of hardware? If it is, then I totally misread the philosophy of >> this group and probably picked the wrong OS ;) >> >FreeBSD is specifically optimized for i86 hardware. There are two ports >in development for others, but we leave portability to our NetBSD >_friends_. We are looking for ISV's to port, of course, and we are >looking for hardware suppliers, _of_course_, but the primary job of all >of us is to get the word out about one of the greatest gifts mankind has >ever given itself. Raising visibility is a major effort, and very few >get any compensation beyond gratification (and a better OS) from adding >to the user base. It seems to me that if the type of people who have the skill and motivation to improve the operating system are attracted to it, and gain a sense of corporate "ownership" from investing blood, sweat and tears into it, then the general user base will continue to follow. Some might offer the argument of Betamax vs. VHS, but I don't think the commercial analogies always apply well here. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 7:48:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD7C814E89 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:31:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id AAA06792; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:30:17 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36F78FFC.4F0C9BEC@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:58:36 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jasper O'Malley" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.2.0.32.19990322141525.00a82b00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > You're correct that it is far too late to undo the damage to the > platform that has been caused by emulating another more popular > one -- a strategy that IBM showed to be almost suicidal. However, > FreeBSD may be able to recoup some native application support by > creating an emulator for Linux. This is what we should do next. > Otherwise, we'll have NOT native application support now or in > the foreseeable future. We'll have made it such a bad business > proposition to do a natively compiled app that it just won't happen. Brett, did ANYTHING *EVER* happened because someone was *asking* for it to happen in the FreeBSD community? -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Someone's trying to hack into our server." "Wow... How flattering!" "I know. There must be some mistake." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 8: 1:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD3314C26 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:01:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA03070; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:01:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323084530.04006e50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:55:34 -0700 To: Brian Adkins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990323010146.00fbf1c0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990322221248.03ebdf10@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990322194937.03ee4600@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:33 AM 3/23/99 -0500, Brian Adkins wrote: >Brett, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but if you want folks to take you >seriously, you're going to have to stop making such outlandish statements. >If you really think developers will "NEVER" target a platform because an >emulator exists, you're clueless. No, the developers are clueless. Or maybe they're actually quite smart. However, THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE TELLING ME. Point blank. Sorry if you don't like the message, but shooting the messenger in denial is not generally considered to be a good strategy. >Are you really suggesting that OS/2's main problem was the fact that it >emulated Windows? Please. This absolutely was OS/2's main problem in getting application support. It lost them developers they NEVER got back. It was one of the most foolish blunders IBM ever made -- bar none. >Where are you coming from man? Do you really think the naysayers are such >because it's *easier* to advocate doing nothing? Yes. And they even say so. Look at Jordan's earlier message: "I see neither the motivation nor the available talent (at least in the same package) to make it happen." [Translation: I'm killing the motivation by not supporting the idea, and will tell the best talent we have that this is not a priority.] >It is not a fact that Linux emulation has not been a "huge blow" to the >platform; it's your opinion. Open your eyes, dude, and do your homework. Talk to a few software vendors who are supporting Linux but not FreeBSD. ASK THEM WHY. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 8:16:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BAB14C8A for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:16:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA03209; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:15:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323090422.03e70f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:13:39 -0700 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990322221248.03ebdf10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:06 AM 3/23/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >Please define few. Would you like to tell all the people playing Quake or >Doom that Linux emulation is useless (or who are using their machines as >Quake servers)? Is it useless for people who want Acrobat Reader so they >can see PDF files? Is it useless for people who want to use an HTML >editor and choose asWedit? Is it useless for those who want to use Word >Perfect? Is it useless for those who want to use Star Office? Oracle? It is not useless for them to do this. However, the fact that they are buying the Linux versions of these products GUARANTEES that the vendors who make them will have no motivation to do native ports. And for an OS to be successful, it MUST HAVE NATIVE PORTS. Period. This is one of the reasons for the demise of OS/2. >You're looking very selectively at the OS/2 story. They stopped being a >viable desktop OS because they stopped emulating/couldn't emulate W95 >apps. This is, again, because they had NO NATIVE PORTS. They were all dropped once IBM embarked on its emulation strategy. All Microsoft needed to do was make it impossible for IBM to continue to emulate Windows without compromising its one strong selling point -- robustness -- and that was it. Game over. Finis. Sayonara. But the game was lost when the emulation went in. I know. I was there. >Face it - Linux is bigger. Companies will write their software for Linux >until FreeBSD has the numbers to support a native port. Porting to FreeBSD will never be a palatable business proposition so long as Linux emulation exists. Again, do your homework and ask the vendors. >We've been through this before and I didn't think it would be necessary to >go over this again, but ... The ports for 2.2.8 are there, on CD or at >Walnut Creek. Most of the current ports tree will still work under 2.2.8 >(there are certainly exceptions). If people want newer versions, they are >stuck w/ the fact that the ports tree has moved on and they may need to >track the ports tree. They may also, if they are using an old release, >regardless of how "old" it is, may have to do some work to get it to work >right. No different than if a person using a Windows 3.1 app had to >upgrade and the next version available is W95/8. Windows 3.1 was supported for a lot more than 6 months after Windows 95 came out. The 2.2.8 ports are old and moldy and in some cases will let the skript kiddies in. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 8:27:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07AAA14CE7 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:27:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA03303; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:26:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323091824.03f94100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:24:21 -0700 To: Brett Taylor , Alex Zepeda From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:23 AM 3/23/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >This has nothing to do w/ the emulator. If people WANT FreeBSD binaries >then they have to ask and push and prod the author to give them to us. If the author has good business sense, pushing and prodding will not make a bit of difference. He or she will nod good-naturedly and tell folks to use the emulator. And then focus on the Linux version of the product. It is just not a good business proposition to release native binaries for FreeBSD with the emulator available. There is NO benefit. Zip. Nada. None. When the intelligent businessperson tells you that, Brett, what will you say? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 8:32: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A07B14CA7 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:32:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA03354; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:31:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323093031.04007ae0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:31:30 -0700 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: Eric Wayte , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jasper O'Malley" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36F791F2.B9FC047@newsguy.com> References: <4.2.0.32.19990322160933.00aaf6c0@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The evidence supports this. Recent download numbers posted on this list show Linux up about a percentage point and FreeBSD down about three, as I recall. --Brett At 10:06 PM 3/23/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: >> >> It looks as if any attempt to spur advocacy for, or promotion of, FreeBSD >> is doomed to failure in this group. No wonder FreeBSD is falling into >> obscurity while Linux crushes everything in sight. > >All evidence to the contrary... :-) > >-- >Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) >dcs@newsguy.com >dcs@freebsd.org > > "Someone's trying to hack into our server." > "Wow... How flattering!" > "I know. There must be some mistake." > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 8:47:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0D014E4F for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:47:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id LAA14490; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:47:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xmab12267; Tue, 23 Mar 99 11:44:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:43:43 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-reply-to: <4.2.0.32.19990323093031.04007ae0@localhost> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I posted the numbers. Please keep in mind the following: 1) They were for RIPE hosts only. 2) They used queso and the % failure is statistically significant. 3) The methodology is suspect. That said, it may still be a good view into FreeBSD vs. Linux usage, IF you remember to scope it with the above limitations. I'm not sure that the numbers are valid for a sweeping statement about the obscurity of our favorite operating system. Certainly, the numbers can be used in support of OTHER valid statistical data, but I haven't seen any posted to augment or contradict the RIPE sample. SB On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > The evidence supports this. Recent download numbers posted on this list > show Linux up about a percentage point and FreeBSD down about three, > as I recall. > > --Brett > > At 10:06 PM 3/23/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > >Brett Glass wrote: > >> > >> It looks as if any attempt to spur advocacy for, or promotion of, FreeBSD > >> is doomed to failure in this group. No wonder FreeBSD is falling into > >> obscurity while Linux crushes everything in sight. > > > >All evidence to the contrary... :-) > > > >-- > >Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) > >dcs@newsguy.com > >dcs@freebsd.org > > > > "Someone's trying to hack into our server." > > "Wow... How flattering!" > > "I know. There must be some mistake." > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 8:49:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0C6152CE for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:49:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07811; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:48:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:48:25 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: Brian Adkins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990323084530.04006e50@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sigh - I should just stop replying to these... On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > Brett, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but if you want folks to take > > you seriously, you're going to have to stop making such outlandish > > statements. If you really think developers will "NEVER" target a > > platform because an emulator exists, you're clueless. > No, the developers are clueless. Or maybe they're actually quite smart. > However, THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE TELLING ME. Point blank. I believe the outlandish claim he is discussing is your completely inane belief that "Linux emulation has helped a few people." > >Where are you coming from man? Do you really think the naysayers are > >such because it's *easier* to advocate doing nothing? > > Yes. And they even say so. Look at Jordan's earlier message: > > "I see neither the motivation nor the available talent (at least in > the same package) to make it happen." > > [Translation: I'm killing the motivation by not supporting the idea, > and will tell the best talent we have that this is not a priority.] More correct translation (IMO) - "The people who have the technical ability to do this are _not_ interested and are busy doing other things. Since this is a volunteer project that leaves people wo/ the technical know-how but lots of motivation." At no point does Jordan say "do nothing" - he's saying that there aren't the people to do it. > Open your eyes, dude, and do your homework. Talk to a few software > vendors who are supporting Linux but not FreeBSD. ASK THEM WHY. And I bet virtually every one will say "Linux has the userbase for me to make it worthwhile to make my software for them so I can be a profitable company. FreeBSD doesn't." Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 8:51:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0448B152BB for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:51:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07824; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:50:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:50:23 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990323090422.03e70f00@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Windows 3.1 was supported for a lot more than 6 months after Windows > 95 came out. The 2.2.8 ports are old and moldy and in some cases will > let the skript kiddies in. Name one port in the 2.2.8 that has a security hole in it that hasn't been fixed and that now won't build for 2.2.8... Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 8:51:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.naxs.com (mailman.naxs.com [216.98.64.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B586A1530B for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:51:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aiarbuckle@naxs.com) Received: from naxs.com ([216.98.76.147]) by mailman.naxs.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-42723U8000L3500S0) with ESMTP id AAA179; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:50:53 -0500 Message-ID: <36F7C469.3FC14BAF@naxs.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:42:18 -0500 From: "Andrew I. Arbuckle" Organization: Donnkenny Apparel, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux References: <4.2.0.32.19990322221248.03ebdf10@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990323090422.03e70f00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sorry if I am getting in where I do not belong, but for my two cents worth (uninflated): I currently use OS/2, DOS 6.22, Win95 and a mainframe OS. I use OS/2 less and less, mostly due to emulation (always slower than native) and lack of good support for ongoing applications. I use DOS when I need speed and clean use of the intel processor. I use Windows for its applications, used thru-out the business world, thus necessary for communications. Experimenting with FreeBSD, and like so far. Thinking about Linux, because of the support it is gaining. With better emulation or applications I would have stuck with OS/2, without the bloat/cost of Wintel, I would stick with Windows. If FreeBSD can provide an alternative, I will switch to it and drop the rest (except the mainframe OS, that is where I work). Emulation is not my preferred method of using applications, but is an acceptable alternative to not being able to access at all, native is always better. Applications plus the ability to interpret data files from other OS's should be all that is needed with an OS that can perform like FreeBSD. (Of course, a really good GUI is advisable for the user group that includes the bulk of the computer user population, for most users buy the front end, not the OS.) Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:06 AM 3/23/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: > > >Please define few. Would you like to tell all the people playing Quake or > >Doom that Linux emulation is useless (or who are using their machines as > >Quake servers)? Is it useless for people who want Acrobat Reader so they > >can see PDF files? Is it useless for people who want to use an HTML > >editor and choose asWedit? Is it useless for those who want to use Word > >Perfect? Is it useless for those who want to use Star Office? Oracle? > > It is not useless for them to do this. However, the fact that they are > buying the Linux versions of these products GUARANTEES that the vendors > who make them will have no motivation to do native ports. And for an OS > to be successful, it MUST HAVE NATIVE PORTS. Period. This is one of the > reasons for the demise of OS/2. > > >You're looking very selectively at the OS/2 story. They stopped being a > >viable desktop OS because they stopped emulating/couldn't emulate W95 > >apps. > > This is, again, because they had NO NATIVE PORTS. They were all dropped > once IBM embarked on its emulation strategy. All Microsoft needed to do > was make it impossible for IBM to continue to emulate Windows without > compromising its one strong selling point -- robustness -- and that was > it. Game over. Finis. Sayonara. But the game was lost when the emulation > went in. > > I know. I was there. > > >Face it - Linux is bigger. Companies will write their software for Linux > >until FreeBSD has the numbers to support a native port. > > Porting to FreeBSD will never be a palatable business proposition so long > as Linux emulation exists. Again, do your homework and ask the vendors. > > >We've been through this before and I didn't think it would be necessary to > >go over this again, but ... The ports for 2.2.8 are there, on CD or at > >Walnut Creek. Most of the current ports tree will still work under 2.2.8 > >(there are certainly exceptions). If people want newer versions, they are > >stuck w/ the fact that the ports tree has moved on and they may need to > >track the ports tree. They may also, if they are using an old release, > >regardless of how "old" it is, may have to do some work to get it to work > >right. No different than if a person using a Windows 3.1 app had to > >upgrade and the next version available is W95/8. > > Windows 3.1 was supported for a lot more than 6 months after Windows 95 came > out. The 2.2.8 ports are old and moldy and in some cases will let the skript > kiddies in. > > --Brett Glass > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Andrew I. Arbuckle Work: (540) 228-6181 ext 251 Fax: (540) 228-6036 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 8:52:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73D7A14E4F for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:52:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id IAA83780; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:52:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:51:59 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , Alex Zepeda , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Message-ID: <19990323085159.A83739@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <4.2.0.32.19990323091824.03f94100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990323091824.03f94100@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 09:24:21AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 09:24:21AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:23 AM 3/23/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: > > >This has nothing to do w/ the emulator. If people WANT FreeBSD binaries > >then they have to ask and push and prod the author to give them to us. > > If the author has good business sense, pushing and prodding will not make > a bit of difference. He or she will nod good-naturedly and tell folks > to use the emulator. And then focus on the Linux version of the product. > > It is just not a good business proposition to release native binaries for > FreeBSD with the emulator available. There is NO benefit. Zip. Nada. None. Yadda, Yadda, Yadda. OK, Brett you are real good at talking. Now its time to put your money where you mouth is. You want FreeBSD emulation for Linux? Fine, stop talking and go and write the damn thing. Hell, just come up with a spec. Its time to stop talking and start working. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 9: 3:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 216F314D41 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:03:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA03711; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:03:29 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323100233.03ebef00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:03:23 -0700 To: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990323093031.04007ae0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oops.... I stand corrected: the figures were for systems identified by the "queso" utility as running FreeBSD. --Brett At 11:43 AM 3/23/99 -0500, Zippy wrote: >I posted the numbers. Please keep in mind the following: > >1) They were for RIPE hosts only. >2) They used queso and the % failure is statistically significant. >3) The methodology is suspect. > >That said, it may still be a good view into FreeBSD vs. Linux usage, IF >you remember to scope it with the above limitations. I'm not sure that >the numbers are valid for a sweeping statement about the obscurity of our >favorite operating system. Certainly, the numbers can be used in support >of OTHER valid statistical data, but I haven't seen any posted to augment >or contradict the RIPE sample. > >SB > > >On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >> The evidence supports this. Recent download numbers posted on this list >> show Linux up about a percentage point and FreeBSD down about three, >> as I recall. >> >> --Brett >> >> At 10:06 PM 3/23/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >> >Brett Glass wrote: >> >> >> >> It looks as if any attempt to spur advocacy for, or promotion of, FreeBSD >> >> is doomed to failure in this group. No wonder FreeBSD is falling into >> >> obscurity while Linux crushes everything in sight. >> > >> >All evidence to the contrary... :-) >> > >> >-- >> >Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) >> >dcs@newsguy.com >> >dcs@freebsd.org >> > >> > "Someone's trying to hack into our server." >> > "Wow... How flattering!" >> > "I know. There must be some mistake." >> > >> >> >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >> > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 9:11: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2128B14C48 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:11:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA03812; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:10:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323100721.04009360@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:10:33 -0700 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990323090422.03e70f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:50 AM 3/23/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >Name one port in the 2.2.8 that has a security hole in it that hasn't >been fixed I believe that only a few days ago, it was reported -- either on this list or on -chat -- that the version of wu-ftpd in the 2.2.8-RELEASE ports was still the one with a root exploit. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 9:15:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1AF15389 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:15:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA03862; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:14:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323101155.04008340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:14:23 -0700 To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: Brett Taylor , Alex Zepeda , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990323085159.A83739@ontario.mooseriver.com> References: <4.2.0.32.19990323091824.03f94100@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990323091824.03f94100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:51 AM 3/23/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >Yadda, Yadda, Yadda. OK, Brett you are real good at talking. Now its time >to put your money where you mouth is. You want FreeBSD emulation for Linux? >Fine, stop talking and go and write the damn thing. Hell, just come up with >a spec. The "spec" can be stated in one sentence: it should run FreeBSD binaries on Linux as easily as the Linux emulation on FreeBSD loads Linux binaries now. Now, as for the technical approach: this will take a few people putting their heads together. Shall we start a mailing list and begin to beat on this? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 9:23: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EBC5153C7 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:22:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07006; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:21:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36F7CD93.94FD5978@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:21:23 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew I. Arbuckle" Cc: Brett Glass , Brett Taylor , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux References: <4.2.0.32.19990322221248.03ebdf10@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990323090422.03e70f00@localhost> <36F7C469.3FC14BAF@naxs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Andrew I. Arbuckle" wrote: > > With better emulation or applications I would have stuck with OS/2, without the > bloat/cost of Wintel, I would stick with Windows. > If FreeBSD can provide an alternative, I will switch to it and drop the rest > (except the mainframe OS, that is where I work). > Emulation is not my preferred method of using applications, but is an acceptable > alternative to not being able to access at all, native is always better. You don't understand how the Linux emulator in FreeBSD works. Some Linux applications run faster on FreeBSD than they do on Linux. ;^) It isn't so much an emulator as it is an alternative execution environ- ment, rather like the Posix and Win32 subsystems on Winders NT. An even closer analogy might be the SunOS execution environment on Solaris. FreeBSD 3.x supports Linux applications in the same way it supports FreeBSD 2.x applications, yet we don't call that an emulator. Essentially, FreeBSD is "Linux ABI compliant." -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 9:30:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D5814E41 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:30:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id MAA10655; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:30:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xma009741; Tue, 23 Mar 99 12:28:31 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:28:19 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for Linux To: advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG (sorry if you get this twice; I didn't see the original go through) On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > Look at Netscape, or Oracle for that matter. It was hard enough to get > them to port to Linux, but, with a perfectly working Linux emulator, do > you really think that they'd publically release a FreeBSD version knowing > full well that their Linux binaries should run fine on FreeBSD? > > - alex And again, I must remind everyone of the following fact: **** Netscape has shown interest in officially supporting a native FreeBSD port. All we have to do is get people to send a polite, short email to nav-support@netscape.com with this request. One per account, please -- we don't want to kill them with spam. **** Since the original message was mine, I feel I have the right to make the following observation: This isn't Congress or Parliament. Instead of sitting around and discussing ideas all day, why not get moving and DO something? Send the email, THEN re-join the discussion. That's all I ask. If you want me to provide a stock e-mail message for you, please let me know. I personally think this is a bad idea (they'll think it's a spam attempt), but hell -- if you've got writer's block, I'll be happy to draft something on your behalf. This thread has taken many twists and turns, and I fear the original message has been lost due to all the political BS that's invaded the discussion. Maybe it's my fault for not being clearer, so I'll say it again, this time in caps: WRITE A MESSAGE TO NAV-SUPPORT@NETSCAPE.COM AND POLITELY REQUEST THAT THEY OFFICIALLY SUPPORT A FREEBSD PORT. Until you do this or the equivalent, you're not contributing to a solution, no matter how good your intentions. Sorry for the above. I'm just getting a bit frustrated hearing all the reasons WHY something's not going to work, instead of hearing that people are taking a simple step that might MAKE something work. The door is open. Would it help to say that I have information (on NDA, sorry) that indicates that Netscape is *seriously* entertaining this offer? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 9:31:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF0921532A for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:31:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id JAA84180; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:31:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:31:17 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Message-ID: <19990323093117.C84022@ontario.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 10:14:23AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:51 AM 3/23/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > > >Yadda, Yadda, Yadda. OK, Brett you are real good at talking. Now its time > >to put your money where you mouth is. You want FreeBSD emulation for Linux? > >Fine, stop talking and go and write the damn thing. Hell, just come up with > >a spec. > > The "spec" can be stated in one sentence: it should run FreeBSD binaries on > Linux as easily as the Linux emulation on FreeBSD loads Linux binaries now. > > Now, as for the technical approach: this will take a few people putting their > heads together. Shall we start a mailing list and begin to beat on this? I assume this means that you are going to stop talking and start writing this emulator. Great, I can't wait to see what you produce. Please build it and prove us all wrong. As to a mailing list... try the following on your machine. cd /usr/ports/mail/majordomo make make install I think you can take it from there. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 9:44:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD2C614E42 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08155; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:43:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:43:52 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990323100721.04009360@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:50 AM 3/23/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: > > >Name one port in the 2.2.8 that has a security hole in it that hasn't > >been fixed > > I believe that only a few days ago, it was reported -- either on this> > list or on -chat -- that the version of wu-ftpd in the 2.2.8-RELEASE > ports was still the one with a root exploit. Nice selective cut ... I also said "and the next or patched version won't build under 2.2.8. Show me the patched or new version won't build. Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 9:57:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D34C14D67 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:57:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA04404; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:57:29 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323103933.009e0e10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:49:42 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:28 AM 3/23/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >I assume this means that you are going to stop talking and start writing >this emulator. Great, I can't wait to see what you produce. Please build it >and prove us all wrong. Well, I'd be glad to -- but it'd be a Quixotic endeavor without help. Care to get involved? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 9:58: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A023515335 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:57:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA04407; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:57:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323104122.009e8c70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:57:21 -0700 To: Brett Taylor , jkh@zippy.cdrom.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990323084530.04006e50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:48 AM 3/23/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >More correct translation (IMO) - "The people who have the technical >ability to do this are _not_ interested and are busy doing other things. >Since this is a volunteer project that leaves people wo/ the technical >know-how but lots of motivation." At no point does Jordan say "do >nothing" - he's saying that there aren't the people to do it. Really, Brett, you and Jordan are starting to sound like the joke about two old men sitting in a restaurant: Jordan: The food here tastes like crap. [1] Brett: Yeah, and they give you such small portions, too! [2] Guys, if you keep dismissing my proposals for contributions, AND ignoring my observations about serious problems that need to be solved, I'll quit attempting to make proposals, contributions, OR observations. --Brett Glass [1] A paraphrase of Jordan's message of 3/22/99, in which he opines, "I say it's bovine waste material..." [2] A paraphrase of Brett's MANY messages in which he states that since he considers my contributions to date to be small, he reserves the right to dismiss my proposals for bigger ones. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 10: 0:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03988152CE for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:00:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id JAA84370; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:58:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:58:41 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Brett Taylor , Alex Zepeda , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Message-ID: <19990323095841.A84311@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <4.2.0.32.19990323101155.04008340@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990323091824.03f94100@localhost> <19990323085159.A83739@ontario.mooseriver.com> <4.2.0.32.19990323101155.04008340@localhost> <19990323092828.A84022@ontario.mooseriver.com> <4.2.0.32.19990323103244.009e86c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990323103244.009e86c0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 10:34:07AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 10:34:07AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:28 AM 3/23/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > > >I assume this means that you are going to stop talking and start writing > >this emulator. Great, I can't wait to see what you produce. Please build it > >and prove us all wrong. > > Well, I'd be glad to -- but it'd be a Quixotic endeavor without help. Care > to get involved? Sorry, my plate is full but I'm sure there are lots of people who will help. Try getting some of the Linux people involved. Since this emulator will be running on Linux you will need at least one person who has a good understand of the guts of a Linux system. I think there is a book on Linux Internals. It should be interesting on how you resolve the BSD/GPL licensing issues with a FreeBSD emulator running on a Linux system. Put up a mailing list and a web page. Get yourself a scratch monkey of a machine and you are on your way. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 10: 4:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A8314E42 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:04:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA04500; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:03:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323105739.009e1b50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:03:15 -0700 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990323100721.04009360@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:43 AM 3/23/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >Nice selective cut ... I also said "and the next or patched version >won't build under 2.2.8. That's because it doesn't matter. People who have the 2.2.8 distribution will fetch the older version and open their systems up to the skript kiddies. (A skript for this exploit went out on Bugtraq this morning after making the rounds elsewhere for several weeks.) >Show me the patched or new version won't build. I haven't tested to see whether it will or not, but again, this is irrelevant. FreeBSD is distributing the old one to unsuspecting customers. Not only is this a liability concern, but it's bad from a PR point of view. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 10: 7: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C24BB153A6 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:06:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA04534; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:06:29 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323110429.009e5460@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:06:22 -0700 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990323095841.A84311@ontario.mooseriver.com> References: <4.2.0.32.19990323103244.009e86c0@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990323101155.04008340@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990323091824.03f94100@localhost> <19990323085159.A83739@ontario.mooseriver.com> <4.2.0.32.19990323101155.04008340@localhost> <19990323092828.A84022@ontario.mooseriver.com> <4.2.0.32.19990323103244.009e86c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:58 AM 3/23/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >It should be interesting on how you resolve the BSD/GPL >licensing issues with a FreeBSD emulator running on a Linux system. One quick answer: Do it under Debian. The BSD license meets their guidelines for "free" software. And there's a good argument for using the BSD license because it's desirable to port the emulator far and wide -- even to commercial OSes such as BeOS. Since it may need to go in the kernel, static linking should be allowed by the license. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 10:39:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EFE914C90 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:39:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-047.thuntek.net [207.66.52.47]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id LAA15816; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:39:24 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F7DF67.FBBB9AA8@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:37:27 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Adkins Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Support (was Re: Netscape browser ) References: <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> <4.1.19990322230145.00f92480@mailbox.iwaynet.net> <4.1.19990323101745.01513a50@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Adkins wrote: > > At 08:04 AM 3/23/99 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: > >> At 06:58 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: > >> >... > >> >Chris Coleman and I, with others, started Daemon News. > >[snip] > >> When I was evaluating FreeBSD (just last week), one of the things that > >> *really* impressed me was the response time on answers to my newbie > >> questions. I was stuck on something at 4:00 am. EST and I fired off a > >> question to freebsd-questions and got several responses that solved the > >> problem in less than an hour! I've had technical support contracts from > >> IBM when I worked on mainframes and from Microsoft and I've *never* had > >> such timely support. In fact, even though my company was paying something > >> like $16,000 per year to Microsoft for support, I inevitably solved the > >> problem through much pain before Microsoft would get back to me with > >> someone that had any degree of clue. > > > >Can we use this as a 'testimonial' quote, Brian? > > Sure! > > >> Maybe I should ask a fundamental question. What is the goal of the > >> advocacy group specifically, and the FreeBSD organization in general? Is > >> it to attract as many ISV's as possible? Is it to run on the widest > >> variety of hardware? If it is, then I totally misread the philosophy of > >> this group and probably picked the wrong OS ;) > >> > >FreeBSD is specifically optimized for i86 hardware. There are two ports > >in development for others, but we leave portability to our NetBSD > >_friends_. We are looking for ISV's to port, of course, and we are > >looking for hardware suppliers, _of_course_, but the primary job of all > >of us is to get the word out about one of the greatest gifts mankind has > >ever given itself. Raising visibility is a major effort, and very few > >get any compensation beyond gratification (and a better OS) from adding > >to the user base. > > It seems to me that if the type of people who have the skill and motivation > to improve the operating system are attracted to it, and gain a sense of > corporate "ownership" from investing blood, sweat and tears into it, then Yes, and the best people will be attracted to the 'technically best' platform which FreeBSD (IMHO and others') most definitely is. > the general user base will continue to follow. Some might offer the > argument of Betamax vs. VHS, but I don't think the commercial analogies > always apply well here. No, they really don't. What does Joe Linux' choice have to do with mine? FreeBSD will remain free as long as people care to keep it up, and there's no sign that that support is going to go away. I personally am not concerned, for example, that I can't get Oracle 8 on my FreeBSD. I know that I can run Oracle 7 if I need to, and that has most of the commercial app base. I also know that I can (and do) run PostgreSQL, which is arguably as good and some ways better, besides being BSD licensed. The VHS vs. Beta would apply if we had a 'bottom line' and payroll to worry about. We don't, therefore we can make our choice on the basis of merit. Betamax _is_ better, but it's gone because Sony couldn't justify supporting it. We have no such problem. As you said, the rules of the game are totally different, and _we_ are Bill Gates' worst nightmare, even if he doesn't know it yet. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 10:46:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BFA2153CE for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:46:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-047.thuntek.net [207.66.52.47]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id LAA17105; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:45:53 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F7E0EB.DAB39E83@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:43:55 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zippy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for Linux References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I hope the guys having the interest are not those who are among the 20-30% getting RIFfed at Netscape by AOL. Are we SURE Bill Gates didn't loan Steve Case the money to do this??? -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 10:57:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8443614C32 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:57:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA26325; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:56:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990323135353.00aeb620@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:56:19 -0500 To: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for Linux In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:28 PM 3/23/99 -0500, Zippy wrote: >... >And again, I must remind everyone of the following fact: > >**** Netscape has shown interest in officially supporting a native FreeBSD >port. All we have to do is get people to send a polite, short email to >nav-support@netscape.com with this request. One per account, please -- >we don't want to kill them with spam. **** Finally something useful on this thread! I just sent my email. If you haven't sent yours - go do it man! >WRITE A MESSAGE TO NAV-SUPPORT@NETSCAPE.COM AND POLITELY REQUEST THAT THEY >OFFICIALLY SUPPORT A FREEBSD PORT. > >Until you do this or the equivalent, you're not contributing to a >solution, no matter how good your intentions. > >Would it help to say that I have information (on NDA, sorry) that >indicates that Netscape is *seriously* entertaining this offer? Yes :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 11: 4:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD09C14BFA for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:04:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA05147; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:03:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323120303.00a86b20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:03:45 -0700 To: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for Linux In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:28 PM 3/23/99 -0500, Zippy wrote: >WRITE A MESSAGE TO NAV-SUPPORT@NETSCAPE.COM AND POLITELY REQUEST THAT THEY >OFFICIALLY SUPPORT A FREEBSD PORT. I'd already asked them independently at another address, but will send to this one as well. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 11:17:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3DA14E56 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:17:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA27414; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:16:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990323140144.0150c0c0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:17:06 -0500 To: Donald Wilde From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: FreeBSD Support (was Re: Netscape browser ) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36F7DF67.FBBB9AA8@thuntek.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> <4.1.19990322230145.00f92480@mailbox.iwaynet.net> <4.1.19990323101745.01513a50@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:37 AM 3/23/99 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >Brian Adkins wrote: >> It seems to me that if the type of people who have the skill and motivation >> to improve the operating system are attracted to it, and gain a sense of >> corporate "ownership" from investing blood, sweat and tears into it, then > >Yes, and the best people will be attracted to the 'technically best' >platform which FreeBSD (IMHO and others') most definitely is. > >> the general user base will continue to follow. Some might offer the >> argument of Betamax vs. VHS, but I don't think the commercial analogies >> always apply well here. > >No, they really don't. What does Joe Linux' choice have to do with mine? >FreeBSD will remain free as long as people care to keep it up, and >there's no sign that that support is going to go away. I personally am >not concerned, for example, that I can't get Oracle 8 on my FreeBSD. I >know that I can run Oracle 7 if I need to, and that has most of the >commercial app base. I also know that I can (and do) run PostgreSQL, >which is arguably as good and some ways better, besides being BSD >licensed. > >The VHS vs. Beta would apply if we had a 'bottom line' and payroll to >worry about. We don't, therefore we can make our choice on the basis of >merit. Betamax _is_ better, but it's gone because Sony couldn't justify >supporting it. We have no such problem. As you said, the rules of the >game are totally different, and _we_ are Bill Gates' worst nightmare, >even if he doesn't know it yet. EXACTLY! There is no "bottom line" here, it's a volunteer effort and volunteers will work on the platform they *want* to - it's very different than the OS/2 scenario. There is much more synergy between the free OS's than there ever was, or will be, between commercial OS's - I think that's continually being overlooked here. And another thing, what's the big deal about providing a native port? If companies are smart they isolate their platform dependent code into very small portions and the administrative overhead of supporting several open source operating systems is diddly squat. I had to port a medium size app (80,000 LOC) that ran on BSDI, AIX, HPUX, Solaris, and others to Windows NT If it's not *that* difficult to write serious code that runs on Windows NT and UNIX (and I've done it), surely it can't be that difficult for a company to maintain a Linux & FreeBSD. Man, you've got fork() on both of them - count your blessings :) Maybe a better thing to do than providing a FreeBSD emulator on Linux is to put together a killer support team (this may already exist) for helping companies expedite porting their apps to FreeBSD - maybe a special mailing list for ISV's who are porting (call it Gold Support or something :), really good "How to port your app to FreeBSD" document, use of the "Works With/Designed For FreeBSD" marketing stuff etc. Just a thought. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 11:30:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA4EC14CF7 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:30:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA274865310; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:55:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:55:10 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Eric Wayte , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jasper O'Malley , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > It looks as if any attempt to spur advocacy for, or promotion of, FreeBSD > is doomed to failure in this group. No wonder FreeBSD is falling into > obscurity while Linux crushes everything in sight. s#FreeBSD#Brett's wacky advocacy ideas#g - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 11:33:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA40E14CB9 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:33:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA274975539; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:58:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:58:59 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990322194937.03ee4600@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >No, I'm dampening enthusiasm for something that's stupid. It's not a > >good idea you say I'm trying to kill, it's a BAD idea, > > I see. And your saying it just makes it so, despite ample historical > evidence to the contrary. Evidence typically has substance, I've seen nothing but smoke and mirrors coming from your general direction. > I'm beginning to think it's not worth even trying to talk sense to you > folks regarding PR, much less contribute time or code. With any luck, you'll hold yourself to that statement. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 11:35:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5DC14D43 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:35:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-156.thuntek.net [207.66.52.156]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id MAA28927; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:34:51 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F7EC67.F274AE67@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:32:55 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Adkins Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Support (was Re: Netscape browser ) References: <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> <4.1.19990322230145.00f92480@mailbox.iwaynet.net> <4.1.19990323101745.01513a50@mailbox.iwaynet.net> <4.1.19990323140144.0150c0c0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Adkins wrote: > > At 11:37 AM 3/23/99 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: [snip] > >The VHS vs. Beta would apply if we had a 'bottom line' and payroll to > >worry about. We don't, therefore we can make our choice on the basis of > >merit. Betamax _is_ better, but it's gone because Sony couldn't justify > >supporting it. We have no such problem. As you said, the rules of the > >game are totally different, and _we_ are Bill Gates' worst nightmare, > >even if he doesn't know it yet. > > EXACTLY! There is no "bottom line" here, it's a volunteer effort and > volunteers will work on the platform they *want* to - it's very different > than the OS/2 scenario. There is much more synergy between the free OS's > than there ever was, or will be, between commercial OS's - I think that's > continually being overlooked here. > Most of us are well aware of the synergy here. Although there are rabid LINUXen and Daemons both, most of the serious people who are not commercially tied to one or the other are well aware of the advantages and disadvantages of both ( / all: we can't forget Net and OpenBSD either). I have friends in our users' group who run Linux and are happy with it. Noneltheless, they come to me and other FreeBSD users for help. > And another thing, what's the big deal about providing a native port? If > companies are smart they isolate their platform dependent code into very > small portions and the administrative overhead of supporting several open > source operating systems is diddly squat. I had to port a medium size app > (80,000 LOC) that ran on BSDI, AIX, HPUX, Solaris, and others to Windows NT > > If it's not *that* difficult to write serious code that runs on Windows NT > and UNIX (and I've done it), surely it can't be that difficult for a > company to maintain a Linux & FreeBSD. Man, you've got fork() on both of > them - count your blessings :) It's the support that is the problem, not the code. Most peons that man telesupport lines don't know what a minimize button is, let alone the differences between install tree locations. Corporations don't gamble on OSen with small user bases, especially one that prides itself in giving away the store. Many of them realize that we're ultimately their worst enemy... > > Maybe a better thing to do than providing a FreeBSD emulator on Linux is to > put together a killer support team (this may already exist) for helping > companies expedite porting their apps to FreeBSD - maybe a special mailing > list for ISV's who are porting (call it Gold Support or something :), > really good "How to port your app to FreeBSD" document, use of > the "Works With/Designed For FreeBSD" marketing stuff etc. Just a thought. A good thought, and it's -- I think -- part of the 'Support Contract' initiative that's in progress now at The FreeSBD Mall. I know Jordan and Bob (WC CEO) both are committed to helping ISV's support FreeBSD natively or under emulation. Contact Christopher Mann (webmaster@freebsdmall.com) if you'd like to offer your services. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 11:37:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A301538F for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:37:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12578; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:36:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) with ESMTP id NAA26982; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:36:08 -0600 Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id NAA10667; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:36:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:36:08 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199903231936.NAA10667@free.pcs> To: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-advocacy In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Okay, I just have to stick my oar in here and add my two bucks. A while back, I might have just beaten on Brett, but I've been taking a couple of (gasp) Marketing classes at the University, and they've been umm, interesting. Not to mention that they contain many of the same themes that Brett's been pounding on, in his own way. In article , Brett Glass wrote: >At 10:07 PM 3/22/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >>You've suggested the following things that I remember recently: >> >> - that the Linux emulator has been bad for FreeBSD > >It has. Unequivocally. Oh, a few people have found it useful as >a stopgap, but it is the ultimate reason for developers NEVER to >target the platform and is thus horribly and irreparably >destructive. > >Has no one here learned from OS/2? Read my lips: emulating a >more popular platform is suicide. What part of that sentence >don't you understand? On one hand, Brett is correct; why should businesses target FreeBSD when they can target Linux, and get both? This effectively records FreeBSD emulation sales as Linux sales, and contributes toward the Linux mindshare, which is what I perceive Brett is mainly concerned about. Step back a moment, and realize that businesses exist for one reason only: to make money. (paying developer salaries and buying nice toys is just an incidental benefit, not the primary goal of the company) In order to make money, they need to sell their product, and at the same time, reduce their overhead. Why would a company want to target the FreeBSD market, when by targeting the Linux market, they also incorporate FreeBSD? To a marketer, it's a fairly clear ROI (or bang for the buck) decision. Now, if we took our Linux emulation out of the picture, the decision above *DOES NOT CHANGE*. FreeBSD still does not have the numbers to register on a marketer's radar screen. All it would do is reduce our pool of available software _and_ put up a larger barrier to gaining new users. I view the latter as being more significant, in order for FreeBSD to grow, we need more users, so we should be focus on making the transition for new users as easy as possible. One way of doing this is to guarantee software compatability (yes, it will still run your Linux software). I agree that we need to attempt to raise the FreeBSD mindshare, however, a FreeBSD emulator for Linux does not make a compelling business case at all. Marketers are already analyzing the _Linux_ community, and targeting their software towards one distribution or another. Red Hat seems to be currently "winning" the marketing competition in the Linux community. If the other Linux distributions (Caldera, for example) can't convince companies to make a binary that will run seamlessly on their Linux variant, why should FreeBSD be able to? Microsoft has the viewpoint of "Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish". For FreeBSD, emulation is the portion of "embrace". Now, we need to move on to "extend" - provide a _MORE_COMPELLING_ reason for people to use FreeBSD. Note that I still get lines in my HTTP logfiles that say: "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows 95) Microsoft started by "emulating" Netscape, providing compatability, and then "extending" the browser so people used it due to it's new features. My take on OS/2 is that it failed not because it provided emulation, but because it did not provide enough added (new) benefits that people wanted, fast enough. Marketers tend to segment the market, and position a product for a specific (usage x situation). FreeBSD appears to be currently targeted at the High Volume, High Availability, Server Market, to be used by Skilled Administrators. In this market, there is no compelling need for Linux emulation, and the products are available as native FBSD binaries (cf: HighWind software). What Brett seems to be (indirectly) suggesting is that FreeBSD add a new segment, (casual user x desktop), since this is where the Linux emulation seems to be primarily used. While this might raise the mindshare of FBSD, I don't see this as a good fit for FreeBSD's current strengths, as it moves us away from the server market, and our existing targeted user base. This is not to say that we shouldn't address this segment at all, if only as a "flanking" move, to prevent erosion of the current market base. However, my opinion is that FreeBSD would be better served by focusing on a slightly different, but still related segment: (Unskilled Admins x High End Servers). As an ancedote (and I'm sure I'm not alone here), I just installed FBSD onto a customer's high-end Compaq machine, for duty as a web server. The customer had ample Novell experience, but has very little UNIX experience, but was willing to learn (and had a copy of Greg's "The Complete FreeBSD"). In short, probably an ideal convert for us. After I had finished the installation, the first question that he asked was "Are you going to install X-Windows on the machine too?". Lesson 1: The Customer Is Always Right. Lesson 2: Listen to your Customer. Whether they are technically correct or not, this underscores something that should be looked at: "Ease of Use Out Of The Box". Something like the "FreeBSD Desktop", working Gnome ports, and an automatically installed "FreeBSD User Environment", will probably help us to win more users. >Not what I advocated. I noted that ports for 2.2.8-RELEASE were no >longer being maintained less than two months after it shipped. What >I advocated was that the ports tree support a release for at least >6 months after it shipped. Otherwise, every release is automatically >an "orphan." This is unprofessional AND bad PR-wise. WHATEVER has >to be done to prevent that should be done. Period. Take your choice >of technical approaches. This brings up what I feel might be an organizational weakness with the FreeBSD side of things: there appears to be no "company" that pushes FreeBSD. Not Walnut Creek; they are not in the FBSD business, they are in the CDROM business. Not Yahoo; they are not in the OS business either. Not FreeBSD, Inc.; this is a non-profit entity which doesn't seem to be interested in being a business partner. I imagine that one reason why RH got Linux onto IBM servers was that they approached IBM with a business case. They probably demonstrated that there was a market, offered channel support (advertising, offloading technical support, free media and documentation, etc). In short, they provided IBM with another potential market (Unix servers) while reducing the risk to IBM by absorbing the support costs. On the other hand, an advocate's recent request to IBM to "consider bundling FreeBSD" was met with a polite request for a business case. In my view, IBM doesn't really care what OS they sell, as long as they can make money out of it. Present a good business case as to why they should sell FBSD (complete with target market share and expected sales volume), and they will probably do that. However, I don't quite see the support infrastructure in place yet, so this is an area where FBSD isn't currently competitive in. >It is not even POSSIBLE unless an emulator exists. > >>Companies will say "sure there's this FreeBSD emulator for Linux, but they >>have roughly 1/6th the number of installations _and_ can emulate Linux. > >The latter is the bigger problem. Again, Linux emulation has been a huge >blow to the platform. At some point, after Linux emulates FreeBSD and FreeBSD >wins native ports, FreeBSD's emulation of Linux should be deprecated. But I fail to see how a "Linux emulation of FBSD" will provide a business case. "Why should we write to this API, when it's not the native market, has resistance in the Linux community, and is opposed by our channel partners?" I think a better approach would be to focus on the number of BSD installations, until at some point the equation shifts - we reach a certain critical mass at which marketers take notice; at that point, perhaps, the Linux emulator will start falling into disfavor. I would suggest that a better "bang for the buck", as well as possibly getting more technical interest, _and_ have the possibilty of getting more PR, would be a "FreeBSD upgrade" of a Linux system. Just imagine, taking a FBSD kernel and a few support files, moving it to /vmlinux (or whaetever) on an existing Linux system, and then rebooting. Presto! The user now has a working system without changing anything else! This would provide: 1) a fairly risk-free method of experimenting with FreeBSD, 2) a method of converting users (hey, this system works _faster_ now!) 3) coolness factor (necessary for early-adopters in the business cycle) But would also risk: 1) tarnishing FBSD's reputation if it doesn't work, or doesn't do better than Linux (hey, my device is not supported now!) 2) alieniating the Linux community 3) draining developer resources possibly needed elsewhere. Gah, I think I've rambled on long enough, and I'm not sure where this is going anymore. Brett, my take on this is that some people would be more than willing to support you, and help with advocacy, but the feeling is that you need to identify or segment your target market a little better, in order to provide some more focus. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 11:42:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F530153AF for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:42:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA278526059; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:07:39 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:07:38 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , wes@softweyr.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990322221248.03ebdf10@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Has no one here learned from OS/2? Read my lips: emulating a > more popular platform is suicide. What part of that sentence > don't you understand? I have machines that run FreeBSD because they can emulate Linux and have all the niceness that I'm familiar with. They _would_ be Linux machines without the emulator, and there _would not_ be a FreeBSD version just because I began to pout. Real life example, not some random rant from an overzealous pseudo-coder. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 11:56: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E4614FA5 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:56:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA05655; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:55:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323125147.00a86a80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:55:30 -0700 To: Jonathan Lemon , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <199903231936.NAA10667@free.pcs> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:36 PM 3/23/99 -0600, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >Brett, my take on this is that some people would be more than >willing to support you, and help with advocacy, but the feeling >is that you need to identify or segment your target market a >little better, in order to provide some more focus. Perhaps the source of confusion here is that the "market" here is DEVELOPERS -- who aren't really a market themselves but rather create one. How do you market FreeBSD to developers? Give them what developers want: a stable platform, good development tools, and access to as many users as possible through a SINGLE API and ABI. A FreeBSD emulator, even more so than the Java Virtual Machine (an attempt to do the same thing but at a higher level), does this. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 11:57:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC13152E8 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:57:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA283906996; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:23:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:23:16 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990323090422.03e70f00@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Windows 3.1 was supported for a lot more than 6 months after Windows 95 came > out. The 2.2.8 ports are old and moldy and in some cases will let the skript > kiddies in. (a) I will immediatly start submitting my CHC timesheets to Brett Glass so I can be paid to backport all commits to RELENG_2_2 because it is a dying/dead branch. (b) You can submit PRs, that will provide this functionality. If these patches don't sacrifice the 3.x/4.0 branches, I will commit as many as I can. Please do not respond with "option B is too much work", because that's the reason I don't do it. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 12: 1:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9381F14DD8 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:01:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-156.thuntek.net [207.66.52.156]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id NAA04061; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:01:09 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F7F292.38877227@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:59:14 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux References: <199903231936.NAA10667@free.pcs> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > Okay, I just have to stick my oar in here and add my two bucks. > A while back, I might have just beaten on Brett, but I've been > taking a couple of (gasp) Marketing classes at the University, > and they've been umm, interesting. Not to mention that they > contain many of the same themes that Brett's been pounding on, in > his own way. > [snip] > On one hand, Brett is correct; why should businesses target FreeBSD > when they can target Linux, and get both? This effectively records > FreeBSD emulation sales as Linux sales, and contributes toward the > Linux mindshare, which is what I perceive Brett is mainly concerned > about. > > Step back a moment, and realize that businesses exist for one reason > only: to make money. (paying developer salaries and buying nice > toys is just an incidental benefit, not the primary goal of the company) > > In order to make money, they need to sell their product, and at the > same time, reduce their overhead. Why would a company want to target > the FreeBSD market, when by targeting the Linux market, they also > incorporate FreeBSD? To a marketer, it's a fairly clear ROI (or bang > for the buck) decision. > > Now, if we took our Linux emulation out of the picture, the decision above > *DOES NOT CHANGE*. FreeBSD still does not have the numbers to register > on a marketer's radar screen. All it would do is reduce our pool of > available software _and_ put up a larger barrier to gaining new users. > I view the latter as being more significant, in order for FreeBSD to > grow, we need more users, so we should be focus on making the transition > for new users as easy as possible. One way of doing this is to guarantee > software compatability (yes, it will still run your Linux software). > > I agree that we need to attempt to raise the FreeBSD mindshare, > however, a FreeBSD emulator for Linux does not make a compelling > business case at all. > I think a better advocacy target would be to gat them to a) add the FreeBSD logo (works with) and also to add a category to their registration databases for FreeBSD users who buy the Linux version. This, I believe is achievable. > Marketers are already analyzing the _Linux_ community, and targeting > their software towards one distribution or another. Red Hat seems to > be currently "winning" the marketing competition in the Linux community. > If the other Linux distributions (Caldera, for example) can't convince > companies to make a binary that will run seamlessly on their Linux > variant, why should FreeBSD be able to? > > Microsoft has the viewpoint of "Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish". For > FreeBSD, emulation is the portion of "embrace". Now, we need to move > on to "extend" - provide a _MORE_COMPELLING_ reason for people to use > FreeBSD. Note that I still get lines in my HTTP logfiles that say: This is important. We should talk about it. What's good 'killer app' or capability we can develop for FreeBSD? > [snip] > > What Brett seems to be (indirectly) suggesting is that FreeBSD add > a new segment, (casual user x desktop), since this is where the Linux > emulation seems to be primarily used. While this might raise the > mindshare of FBSD, I don't see this as a good fit for FreeBSD's current > strengths, as it moves us away from the server market, and our existing > targeted user base. > I think 'user desktop' is too nebulous a target to be a killer app, although we definitely should support the GNOME and KDE work going on. Too many of us are passionate about our existing setups to even be willing to uninstall an OOTB configuration. > This is not to say that we shouldn't address this segment at all, if > only as a "flanking" move, to prevent erosion of the current market > base. However, my opinion is that FreeBSD would be better served by > focusing on a slightly different, but still related segment: > (Unskilled Admins x High End Servers). > SOlaris and SCO have a head start on that. I think we need to be different, not just better. > As an ancedote (and I'm sure I'm not alone here), I just installed > FBSD onto a customer's high-end Compaq machine, for duty as a web > server. The customer had ample Novell experience, but has very little > UNIX experience, but was willing to learn (and had a copy of Greg's > "The Complete FreeBSD"). In short, probably an ideal convert for us. > After I had finished the installation, the first question that he asked > was "Are you going to install X-Windows on the machine too?". > ROFL! > Lesson 1: The Customer Is Always Right. > Lesson 2: Listen to your Customer. Lesson 3: Make him your customer by wowing him with impressive demos and slick sales lines. Emotions win for Microsoft, they can also do the job (in a smaller way) for us. > [snip] > This brings up what I feel might be an organizational weakness with > the FreeBSD side of things: there appears to be no "company" that > pushes FreeBSD. > > Not Walnut Creek; they are not in the FBSD business, they are in the > CDROM business. Not Yahoo; they are not in the OS business either. > Not FreeBSD, Inc.; this is a non-profit entity which doesn't seem to > be interested in being a business partner. > See http://www.freebsdmall.com. They are becoming what you seek, without the singlemindedness that's driving a wedge between Red Hat and the rest of the Linux community. > I imagine that one reason why RH got Linux onto IBM servers was that > they approached IBM with a business case. They probably demonstrated > that there was a market, offered channel support (advertising, offloading > technical support, free media and documentation, etc). In short, they > provided IBM with another potential market (Unix servers) while reducing > the risk to IBM by absorbing the support costs. > Yes, this is entirely correct. I actually think targeting hardware vendors is so much more appropriate than ISVs at this point. We need to make obvious system sales FIRST. > On the other hand, an advocate's recent request to IBM to "consider > bundling FreeBSD" was met with a polite request for a business case. > In my view, IBM doesn't really care what OS they sell, as long as > they can make money out of it. Present a good business case as to > why they should sell FBSD (complete with target market share and > expected sales volume), and they will probably do that. However, I > don't quite see the support infrastructure in place yet, so this is > an area where FBSD isn't currently competitive in. > > >It is not even POSSIBLE unless an emulator exists. > > unless the hardware market is perceivable. As you state below, we need to raise the profile of our _installed_systems_. > >>Companies will say "sure there's this FreeBSD emulator for Linux, but they > >>have roughly 1/6th the number of installations _and_ can emulate Linux. > > > >The latter is the bigger problem. Again, Linux emulation has been a huge > >blow to the platform. At some point, after Linux emulates FreeBSD and FreeBSD > >wins native ports, FreeBSD's emulation of Linux should be deprecated. > > But I fail to see how a "Linux emulation of FBSD" will provide a > business case. "Why should we write to this API, when it's not the > native market, has resistance in the Linux community, and is opposed > by our channel partners?" > > I think a better approach would be to focus on the number of BSD > installations, until at some point the equation shifts - we reach > a certain critical mass at which marketers take notice; at that point, > perhaps, the Linux emulator will start falling into disfavor. > > I would suggest that a better "bang for the buck", as well as possibly > getting more technical interest, _and_ have the possibilty of getting > more PR, would be a "FreeBSD upgrade" of a Linux system. Just imagine, > taking a FBSD kernel and a few support files, moving it to /vmlinux (or > whaetever) on an existing Linux system, and then rebooting. Presto! > The user now has a working system without changing anything else! > Yuk, yuk, yuk . > This would provide: > 1) a fairly risk-free method of experimenting with FreeBSD, > 2) a method of converting users (hey, this system works _faster_ now!) > 3) coolness factor (necessary for early-adopters in the business cycle) > > But would also risk: > 1) tarnishing FBSD's reputation if it doesn't work, or doesn't do > better than Linux (hey, my device is not supported now!) > 2) alieniating the Linux community > 3) draining developer resources possibly needed elsewhere. > and it would have to be able to switch back as well so we don't break their comfort zones. > Gah, I think I've rambled on long enough, and I'm not sure where this > is going anymore. > [snip] Actually, there have been a few useful nuggets on this thread, and some new advocates have emerged from lurkerdom. Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 12: 2:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A433814DD8 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:02:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA285737269; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:27:49 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:27:49 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990323105739.009e1b50@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > I haven't tested to see whether it will or not, but again, this is > irrelevant. FreeBSD is distributing the old one to unsuspecting > customers. Not only is this a liability concern, but it's bad from a > PR point of view. How are we distributing the old one? Ports are not branched. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 12:11:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5123514C4F for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:11:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12764; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:11:30 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id OAA05066; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:10:59 -0600 Message-ID: <19990323141058.23084@right.PCS> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:10:58 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux References: <4.2.0.32.19990323125147.00a86a80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990323125147.00a86a80@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Mar 03, 1999 at 12:55:30PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mar 03, 1999 at 12:55:30PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >Brett, my take on this is that some people would be more than > >willing to support you, and help with advocacy, but the feeling > >is that you need to identify or segment your target market a > >little better, in order to provide some more focus. > > Perhaps the source of confusion here is that the "market" here is > DEVELOPERS -- who aren't really a market themselves but rather create > one. I'd have to disagree with this. The market isn't developers. For example, Oracle uses FreeBSD internally, and the developers love it (if we are to believe John Dyson), but there is no native Oracle port. I believe that the same situation exists with Netscape. > How do you market FreeBSD to developers? Give them what developers want: > a stable platform, good development tools, and access to as many users as > possible through a SINGLE API and ABI. Yes, I agree, this is nice. But developers != marketers, and it's the marketers who usually make the business decisions. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 12:12:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F8D153F9 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:12:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11369; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:11:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:11:50 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > Windows 3.1 was supported for a lot more than 6 months after Windows > > 95 came out. The 2.2.8 ports are old and moldy and in some cases > > will let the skript kiddies in. > (b) You can submit PRs, that will provide this functionality. If these > patches don't sacrifice the 3.x/4.0 branches, I will commit as many as > I can. He _could_ but he won't. I challenged him to point to one port that had a hole in it that hadn't been fixed (I mistyped, meant 'had') and for which the new patched/upgraded version couldn't be built under 2.2.8. He said something about wu-ftpd. Well, I wasn't going to respond because talking to Brett Glass is like talking to my monitor - it just does what it wants, not what I ask it to. But then I got interested, so I went and checked anon-cvs and looked at wu-ftpd. There were changes committed on the 10th of February (by ache) to close a security hole in vr12 (I have only heard of this one hole recently so I imagine it's the one BG is discussing). The cvs log for the Makefile shows: ------------------------------------------ 1.20 Wed Feb 10 12:48:04 1999 UTC by ache Diffs to 1.19 upgrade to vr13 to close security hole and lots of enhancements ---------------------------------------------------------------- Since then the version # has increased from vr13 to vr16. Guess what? It still builds fine on the 2.2.8 system I'm typing this on. Keep looking Brett. I am now going to ignore all of BG's "pie in the sky" ideas that he's never going to back up with any work, finish my thesis and use all my time that I'll be saving to help FreeBSD instead of trying to make sense of what BG is saying. Brett Taylor *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 12:18:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D7514F2A for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:18:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA05899; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:18:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990323131658.03f94d10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:17:51 -0700 To: Jonathan Lemon From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990323141058.23084@right.PCS> References: <4.2.0.32.19990323125147.00a86a80@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990323125147.00a86a80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:10 PM 3/23/99 -0600, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >I'd have to disagree with this. The market isn't developers. For >example, Oracle uses FreeBSD internally, and the developers love it >(if we are to believe John Dyson), but there is no native Oracle port. In this case, when I say "developers," I mean COMPANIES that develop software. Yes, it is often the marketing people within those companies to whom one must appeal. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 12:22:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail4.svr.pol.co.uk (mail4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C155F1542E for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:22:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsm@acm.org) Received: from [195.92.197.25] (helo=mail17.svr.pol.co.uk) by mail4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PXgu-0004eP-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:22:24 +0000 Received: from modem-72.cushion.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.133.200] helo=valis.goatsucker.org) by mail17.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PXes-0000pD-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:20:19 +0000 Received: (from scott@localhost) by valis.goatsucker.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA01149; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:19:46 GMT (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <19990323111945.51440@goatsucker.org> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:19:45 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Enough already! (was Re: Netscape browser) Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <4.2.0.32.19990322160933.00aaf6c0@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990322181857.03eb8d90@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 06:20:49PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 06:20:49PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > It looks as if any attempt to spur advocacy for, or promotion of, FreeBSD > is doomed to failure in this group. No wonder FreeBSD is falling into > obscurity while Linux crushes everything in sight. One might argue that "FreeBSD is falling into obscurity" because we all -- with a few notable exceptions -- sit around here bitching about it rather than doing anything to remedy the situation. And Brett, you're as guilty of all talk, no action as anybody; witness the amount of effort you've put into this thread, repeating the same arguments a million times. Nik Clayton summed it up perfectly: if you really believe that a FreeBSD emulator is a worthwhile endeavour then you don't need my, Jordan's or anyone else's permission to go do it. Just start the project, announce it in all the places Nik mentioned, try to get Debian on board, and take it from there. If people think it's a good idea, they'll flock to your banner and you can say "I told you so". If not, too bad, but at least you tried. Endless complaining on -advocacy that nobody supports your ideas is only going to induce people to not support your ideas... FWIW, I think your emulator idea has its merits, although I fail to see how any commercial vendor is going to switch to BSD on the basis of ~1/3 more users, 3/4 of whom would then be running their product under emulation. Especially when they can have all those users now, with 3/4 of them running it natively... You might be able to make it work if you could get Debian behind it -- they've already expressed interest in working with the BSDs. Better yet (I think Terry L. has suggested this already?) get FreeBSD emulation running on Solaris and a bunch of other commercial Unices...now *that* would get you market share. Anyway, you've got the ball on this, so how about running somewhere with it? Now, before you trot out your line about every offer you make getting rejected by some evil cabal at the heart of the project, that is, frankly, a load of crap. Although you do seem to have a talent for getting people mad at you no matter what you say. I've gone so far as to accuse the entire core team of (and I quote) "not giving a shit about laptop support", and succeeded only in getting elected point man on the laptop support effort for my pains. Punishment enough, I guess :) I started work on a NIC driver a couple of months ago. Since then I've had offers of help (coding and testing) from about 40-50 people. People have provided network resources, web space, even a chance of some loaner hardware. I have every expectation that the driver will be committed to the FreeBSD tree as soon as it's done. Partly as a result of our efforts (and those evil Linux people) Xircom are relaxing their licensing policy with regard to specs and source code. Plus they now have FreeBSD on their map, and they think we're good people. All that just by being nice to people, and doing most of the work myself -- you should try it sometime. Maybe I'm being too harsh. I'm sure that you do believe in FreeBSD, that you're doing great work with your local user group, that you're producing lots of cool stuff that we don't know about, etc. We've just seen precious little evidence of that on this list. Anyway, I await the announcement of the FreeBSD emulator project with interest, but I'm not holding my breath. Scott PS. Please don't reply to me personally. I'm trying to put an end to this argument (I know, stupid idea), not start another one. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 12:28:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A9014D44; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:28:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA01385; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:27:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990323151435.0153a550@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:27:39 -0500 To: Brett Glass , Jonathan Lemon , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990323125147.00a86a80@localhost> References: <199903231936.NAA10667@free.pcs> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:55 PM 3/23/99 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >How do you market FreeBSD to developers? Give them what developers want: >a stable platform, good development tools, and access to as many users as >possible through a SINGLE API and ABI. > >A FreeBSD emulator, even more so than the Java Virtual Machine (an attempt >to do the same thing but at a higher level), does this. > >--Brett Well, I have to vehemently disagree here. A good Java Virtual Machine will give access to far more users than a FreeBSD emulator for Linux - it's the ultimate emulator. Instead of just possibly encouraging ISV's to target FreeBSD for the native app because they can run on Linux via the emulator, we could attract thousands of ISV's who currently have apps running on dozens of OS's to offer a FreeBSD version and at the same time attract users who prefer FreeBSD over Solaris or Windows NT. I would personally like to get to the point where folks who want Java and a free OS go to FreeBSD *first*. Other commercial OS companies are seriously lacking here, I think SCO only has a 1.1.3 JDK, whereas, FreeBSD already has a 1.1.7. Many ISV's, like me, have chosen the Java platform to avoid being at the mercy of OS marketshare dynamics in addition to the quality of the Java language. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 12:28:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out.visi.com (tele.visi.com [209.98.98.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9276B1506F for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:28:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mestery@visi.com) Received: from isis.visi.com (isis.visi.com [209.98.98.8]) by mail-out.visi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96FE11F831; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:28:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (mestery@localhost) by isis.visi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA22392; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:28:22 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: isis.visi.com: mestery owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:28:22 -0600 (CST) From: To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathan Lemon , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990323125147.00a86a80@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > How do you market FreeBSD to developers? Give them what developers want: > a stable platform, good development tools, and access to as many users as > possible through a SINGLE API and ABI. > If you started reading this thread from this email on, you'd swear Brett was talking about the Linux emulator above. That is, after all, what it provides us with, correct? A single API and ABI (the Linux one) that developers can code to. I don't see how making a FreeBSD emulator for Linux is going to suddenly turn the tide of developers over our way, but I'm just a simple developr myself.:) > A FreeBSD emulator, even more so than the Java Virtual Machine (an attempt > to do the same thing but at a higher level), does this. > As does (and already IS) the Linux emulator. I get the feeling Brett is arguing the same point as everyone, the only difference being he thinks a FreeBSD emulator for Linux will suddenly make people write code for FreeBSD. I'm guessing that while it may help, it's not going to be more than a drop in the bucket. My $0.02. -- Kyle Mestery StorageTek's Storage Networking Group Protect your right to privacy: www.freecrypto.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 12:38:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C98314BEE; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:38:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA07317; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:38:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA15495; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:38:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:38:09 -0700 Message-Id: <199903232038.NAA15495@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Brian Adkins Cc: Brett Glass , Jonathan Lemon , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990323151435.0153a550@mailbox.iwaynet.net> References: <199903231936.NAA10667@free.pcs> <4.2.0.32.19990323125147.00a86a80@localhost> <4.1.19990323151435.0153a550@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I would personally like to get to the point where folks who want Java and a > free OS go to FreeBSD *first*. While I think this is a laudable goal, the lack of a solid JIT means that FreeBSD will lack behind the other OS's (notably the M$ version) in performance. > Other commercial OS companies are seriously > lacking here, I think SCO only has a 1.1.3 JDK, whereas, FreeBSD already > has a 1.1.7. And soon to have an ELF version. I've spent the last few days working on it, and I hope to have the ELF version of JDK1 out by next week sometime. Then, it's onto JDK2. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 12:54:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FFE114C90; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:54:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA02797; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:53:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990323154644.0153a1f0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:53:59 -0500 To: Nate Williams From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903232038.NAA15495@mt.sri.com> References: <4.1.19990323151435.0153a550@mailbox.iwaynet.net> <199903231936.NAA10667@free.pcs> <4.2.0.32.19990323125147.00a86a80@localhost> <4.1.19990323151435.0153a550@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:38 PM 3/23/99 -0700, Nate Williams wrote: >> I would personally like to get to the point where folks who want Java and a >> free OS go to FreeBSD *first*. > >While I think this is a laudable goal, the lack of a solid JIT means >that FreeBSD will lack behind the other OS's (notably the M$ version) in >performance. So what do we have to do to get a solid JIT? Is it a matter of developer time, or are there other issues involved? If we could compete with Microsoft's and Sun's Java performance/reliability, I would probably become the #1 FreeBSD evangelist in a short time :) I mean, I love it as it is, but if it had a Java as least as good as Windows NT, I'd be ecstatic! >> Other commercial OS companies are seriously >> lacking here, I think SCO only has a 1.1.3 JDK, whereas, FreeBSD already >> has a 1.1.7. > >And soon to have an ELF version. I've spent the last few days working >on it, and I hope to have the ELF version of JDK1 out by next week >sometime. > >Then, it's onto JDK2. :) Doesn't the Java 2 platform include Symantec's JIT? Will we get that with the port? > >Nate thanks dude! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 13: 7:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD9A14C56 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:07:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id LAA04669; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:33:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xmay29718; Tue, 23 Mar 99 11:26:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:23:45 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-reply-to: To: Alex Zepeda Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > Look at Netscape, or Oracle for that matter. It was hard enough to get > them to port to Linux, but, with a perfectly working Linux emulator, do > you really think that they'd publically release a FreeBSD version knowing > full well that their Linux binaries should run fine on FreeBSD? > > - alex And again, I must remind everyone of the following fact: **** Netscape has shown interest in officially supporting a native FreeBSD port. All we have to do is get people to send a polite, short email to nav-support@netscape.com with this request. One per account, please -- we don't want to kill them with spam. **** Since the original message was mine, I feel I have the right to make the following observation: This isn't Congress or Parliament. Instead of sitting around and discussing ideas all day, why not get moving and DO something? Send the email, THEN re-join the discussion. That's all I ask. If you want me to provide a stock e-mail message for you, please let me know. I personally think this is a bad idea (they'll think it's a spam attempt), but hell -- if you've got writer's block, I'll be happy to draft something on your behalf. This thread has taken many twists and turns, and I fear the original message has been lost due to all the political BS that's invaded the discussion. Maybe it's my fault for not being clearer, so I'll say it again, this time in caps: WRITE A MESSAGE TO NAV-SUPPORT@NETSCAPE.COM AND POLITELY REQUEST THAT THEY OFFICIALLY SUPPORT A FREEBSD PORT. Until you do this or the equivalent, you're not contributing to a solution, no matter how good your intentions. Sorry for the above. I'm just getting a bit frustrated hearing all the reasons WHY something's not going to work, instead of hearing that people are taking a simple step that might MAKE something work. The door is open. Would it help to say that I have information (on NDA, sorry) that indicates that Netscape is *seriously* entertaining this offer? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 13: 8:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B70014C56; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:08:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA24884; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:08:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:08:21 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: Brian Adkins Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990323154644.0153a1f0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Brian Adkins wrote: # So what do we have to do to get a solid JIT? Is it a matter of developer # time, or are there other issues involved? If we could compete with # Microsoft's and Sun's Java performance/reliability, I would probably become # the #1 FreeBSD evangelist in a short time :) I mean, I love it as it is, # but if it had a Java as least as good as Windows NT, I'd be ecstatic! I've been playing with TYA. It is pretty good from what I can tell from using it, but it is GPL'd so I haven't dug into the code and tried to fix the few problems that I've found so far. # Doesn't the Java 2 platform include Symantec's JIT? Will we get that with # the port? Yes the Sun implementation has it (and Blackdown's too I think) but the source is not publically available, so our port won't come with it. :( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 13: 9:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D50F14C56 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:09:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA85723; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:09:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:57:21 MST." <4.2.0.32.19990323104122.009e8c70@localhost> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:08:59 -0800 Message-ID: <85720.922223339@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Guys, if you keep dismissing my proposals for contributions, AND ignoring > my observations about serious problems that need to be solved, I'll quit > attempting to make proposals, contributions, OR observations. Deal! Frankly, I don't see any benefits these days which outweigh the disadvantages of multiple-day flamewars on -advocacy. You're clearly on the debit side of the ledger and if you now propose to get out before you get any further into the red, I can't argue with the wisdom of that. Happy trails, dude! :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 13:32:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bbcc.ctc.edu (bbcc.ctc.edu [134.39.180.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68A211547B for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:32:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@bbcc.ctc.edu) Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by bbcc.ctc.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA20070; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:24:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:24:09 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Coleman To: Scott Mitchell Cc: Wes Peters , "Jason C. Wells" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Logo artwork (was Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser)) In-Reply-To: <19990322134555.56933@goatsucker.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Wes, you're a big wheel on the Daemon News, right? Have you talked to > Ms. Coleman (sp?) of Darby Daemon fame about this -- she seems like an > ideal candidate for the job. Yes, Wes has talked to her. She is going to do a up a set. However, she still has this months issue of Darby Daemon to get done first. I will keep you posted as to when she gets them done. -Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 13:52: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C480E154C5 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:51:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PZ4n-0005MA-0C for advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:51:12 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id VAA02939 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:50:42 GMT Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id VAA00481 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:47:25 GMT (envelope-from marko) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:47:25 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Message-ID: <19990323214724.B290@marder-1.localhost> References: <4.2.0.32.19990323125147.00a86a80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from mestery@visi.com on Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 02:28:22PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey guys, I think we ought to try selling FreeBSD to the clothing industry because -advocacy has invented something that it could really use......everlasting thread. -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 13:57:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED5A1549C; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:56:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA07963; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:56:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA15937; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:56:14 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:56:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199903232156.OAA15937@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Brian Adkins Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990323154644.0153a1f0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> References: <4.1.19990323151435.0153a550@mailbox.iwaynet.net> <199903231936.NAA10667@free.pcs> <4.2.0.32.19990323125147.00a86a80@localhost> <199903232038.NAA15495@mt.sri.com> <4.1.19990323154644.0153a1f0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> I would personally like to get to the point where folks who want Java and a > >> free OS go to FreeBSD *first*. > > > >While I think this is a laudable goal, the lack of a solid JIT means > >that FreeBSD will lack behind the other OS's (notably the M$ version) in > >performance. > > So what do we have to do to get a solid JIT? Is it a matter of developer > time, or are there other issues involved? Mostly resources, which involve more than time, but involve expertise. Similar to the thread running in -hackers, you need someone with time, expertise, and desire to work on the problem. Unfortunately, I have very little of all of them. :) > If we could compete with > Microsoft's and Sun's Java performance/reliability, I would probably become > the #1 FreeBSD evangelist in a short time :) I mean, I love it as it is, > but if it had a Java as least as good as Windows NT, I'd be ecstatic! So would I. :) :) > >> Other commercial OS companies are seriously > >> lacking here, I think SCO only has a 1.1.3 JDK, whereas, FreeBSD already > >> has a 1.1.7. > > > >And soon to have an ELF version. I've spent the last few days working > >on it, and I hope to have the ELF version of JDK1 out by next week > >sometime. > > > >Then, it's onto JDK2. :) > > Doesn't the Java 2 platform include Symantec's JIT? Will we get that with > the port? The Linux folks have someone been able to integrate it, but I don't know how. Hopefully their patches will shed some light into that, but the JIT apparently only works with green threads and not native threads. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 14:20:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31CCD14BD2 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22207; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:18:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903232218.OAA22207@implode.root.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Enough already! (was Re: Netscape browser) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:19:45 GMT." <19990323111945.51440@goatsucker.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:18:58 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >On Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 06:20:49PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >> It looks as if any attempt to spur advocacy for, or promotion of, FreeBSD >> is doomed to failure in this group. No wonder FreeBSD is falling into >> obscurity while Linux crushes everything in sight. > >One might argue that "FreeBSD is falling into obscurity" because we all -- >with a few notable exceptions -- sit around here bitching about it rather >than doing anything to remedy the situation. And Brett, you're as guilty >of all talk, no action as anybody; witness the amount of effort you've put >into this thread, repeating the same arguments a million times. I don't see how anyone can credibly argue that FreeBSD, an operating system that is still growing its userbase exponentially each year, is "falling into obscurity". I just don't see that in the numbers - quite the opposite, actually. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 14:42:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pcslink.com (pcslink.com [206.43.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94AE1540E for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:42:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ryan@pcslink.com) Received: (from ryan@localhost) by pcslink.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id PAA03866 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:41:53 -0700 (MST) From: Ryan Mooney Message-Id: <199903232241.PAA03866@pcslink.com> Subject: PHX Users Group To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:41:53 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The Phoenix BSD Users group is fully open for businness. I now have the mailing list setup and ready to go. If anyone else here is from the phoenix area please feel free to join in http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ >-=-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-=-< Ryan Mooney Phone (602)265-9188 PCSLink ryan@pcslink.com Internet Services NT is an excellent choice for managers who need to show that they used up their fiscal year budget for hardware/software expenditures. <-=-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-=-> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 14:58:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B07153E6 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:58:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA34947; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:57:21 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:57:21 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: Wilfredo Sanchez Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... Message-ID: <19990324005720.N61840@shale.csir.co.za> References: <199903191936.LAA33678@scv4.apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199903191936.LAA33678@scv4.apple.com>; from Wilfredo Sanchez on Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:37:31AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:37:31AM -0800, Wilfredo Sanchez wrote: > Jeremy Lea : > | I'm not one for Brett style advocacy, but this takes the cake. They > | used BSD and CMU licensed software to develop most of the OS, and then > | release it with a big announcement of 'open source' under a more > | restrictive license... > > Actually large parts of what we are redistributing are done so > under the original license. I put the Apple License on anything that > might have code in it which is significantly ours, whether that is > in fact the case or not, because that was to best way for me to get > more code out early. I hope to clean that up some later, when I get > more time to go through things carefully. This makes me a bit happier. I haven't had a chance to look into the code, since when I posted this the site was on it's knees. I can't say that I'm really comfortable with people re-licensing source code, although the BSD licence allows it, I feel that the spirit of the licence is to allow binary re-licensing of closed extensions, but that patches should be released under the original licence. However, your later comments about relaxing the licence go a long way to making me happier. I don't mind you using your licence for your own work. > I don't think we're hiding the fact that BSD provided much of our > code. 4.4BSD is an advertised component of Mac OS X Server. In any > case, the code speaks for itself. It would be nice to get a direct mention of NetBSD and FreeBSD on the main page, since people seeing 4.4BSD wont associate it directly with either product, and people only follow links anyway. > We are trying, by the way, with the advertising clause. The > installation manual for Mac OS X Server (both printed and on-disk) > includes a big list of acknolwegdements for the BSD stuff as well as > every other copyright I could find (just to be fair, even though it's > not required). Keep in mind that it's not a trivial thing to paste > that much spew into every document we produce. This nice to hear. > "Jordan K. Hubbard" : > | If Apple actually contributes code back, I won't actually care so > | much what their PR dept. does or does not acknowledge. It would be > | *very nice* to get public acknowledgement, don't get me wrong, but > | there are all kinds of "technology partners" out there and the ones > | who contribute technical assistance (bug fixes, reports, etc) are > | just as valuable in their own way. > > We'd love to get a better-established relationship with FreeBSD, > as I mentioned before. We really like FreeBSD. We have a nice > arrangement with NetBSD and a really excellent one with the Apache > Group. I think we may want to be more plublic about these things; it > may be good for all involved. I'll see what I can do about that. What's stopping this, and what do you have in mind? From Jordan's message above, you can see that FreeBSD's main concern is code. You mentioned NFS, which is an area where FreeBSD could really do with some help. I'm sure an area of concern to you is also kernel threads. The second concern is licensing. FreeBSD needs to remain free, so that others can use the code in the way you have (and hopefully not release it under YAPL - Yet Another Public Licence :). Lastly comes PR. You need to be sensitive to the fact that FreeBSD is taking a lot of flak from people who want FreeBSD to be as big as Linux, and this is a big PR win for us. With even with one mention of FreeBSD on the web site (although NetBSD deserves a place before us from your comments), we can spin this to gain mind-share. I think what irritated me the most was that Eric Raymond was invited to the launch, and that Linux was given most of the credit in the press - while Eric Raymond subtly slammed us with comments about Linux having a 'better licensing situation and better social organisation'. It would have been really nice to have some BSD people there. How about also putting FreeBSD on that Dell Poweredge on http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/apache.html or did it beat out the Mac... :-P I realise that Apple has it's own PR department, who want to spin this their own way, but this could have been a big chance to put FreeBSD's name in front of the press. Probably would have avoided the bad PR from associating with the FSF and OSI, and their incessant struggles about what's "open source" and "free software". A suggestion: Do you want to regain some PR ground that you've been loosing due to infighting amongst the FSF and OSI? Get a gentleman's agreement about contributing back patches to NetBSD and FreeBSD, and then do a joint press release with Apple, NetBSD and FreeBSD (and OpenBSD?). Announce that Darwin has been welcomed into the BSD family, how the BSD license allows for development of commercial products like MacOS X Server from the source base and how BSD technology provides an excellent base for the development of internet servers. Win, win? Regards, -Jeremy -- | ------------------------------------------------------ --+-- "Maybe tomorrow will be better than today, | or maybe it will not come at all..." - Pam Thum | ------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 16:43: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A59AF15482 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:42:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wsanchez@scv2.apple.com) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA55016 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:30:43 -0800 Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (mailgate1.apple.com- SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:30:37 -0800 Received: from joliet-jake (joliet-jake.apple.com [17.202.40.140]) by scv2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA11060; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:30:34 -0800 Message-Id: <199903240030.QAA11060@scv2.apple.com> To: Jeremy Lea Subject: Re: Apple's open source... Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199903191936.LAA33678@scv4.apple.com>; from Wilfredo Sanchez onFri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:37:31AM -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:30:32 -0800 From: Wilfredo Sanchez Reply-To: wsanchez@apple.com X-Mailer: by Apple MailViewer (2.106) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | This makes me a bit happier. I haven't had a chance to look into the | code, since when I posted this the site was on it's knees. I think the server load is down considerably from Day One. Probably it was the pipe to Apple getting clogged, not the machine (it's just one Mac), since it seemed to be quite happy the whole time; we don't have all that much bandwidth and the Star Wars trailer isn't helping. | It would be nice to get a direct mention of NetBSD and FreeBSD on the | main page, since people seeing 4.4BSD wont associate it directly with | either product, and people only follow links anyway. I'm trying to figure out how we can do this well for all of our upstream sources, including FreeBSD. | > We'd love to get a better-established relationship with FreeBSD, | > as I mentioned before. We really like FreeBSD. We have a nice | > arrangement with NetBSD and a really excellent one with the Apache | > Group. I think we may want to be more plublic about these things; it | > may be good for all involved. I'll see what I can do about that. | | What's stopping this, and what do you have in mind? Mostly, I need to do some legwork here to make it easy to manage code from FreeBSD in the same way I did for NetBSD. I've been a little swampped lately, but I do intend to get that set up. | The second concern is licensing. FreeBSD needs to remain free If I send you patches, they will not have the APSL attached to them; we tend to hand patches back under the original code's terms. Certainly there is no intent to pollute FreeBSD's code with YAPL. Note we've been doing this for some time (though not yet with FreeBSD), independant of Darwin. | I think what irritated | me the most was that Eric Raymond was invited to the launch, and that | Linux was given most of the credit in the press - while Eric Raymond | subtly slammed us with comments about Linux having a 'better licensing | situation and better social organisation'. It would have been really | nice to have some BSD people there. How about also putting FreeBSD | on that Dell Poweredge on http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/apache.html | or did it beat out the Mac... The reason Linux is on the Dell and not FreeBSD, is because that is a marketing document, and the world knows about Linux, and there is a perception that Linux tends to kick butt over commercial software. In fact, the Linux machine beats the Sun machine in the picture, so that seems a fair perception. The fact that FreeBSD isn't in the public eye as much as Linux is the reason it isn't on that page. It just wouldn't make as big am impression. I find that unfortunate, but it is the state of things today. The Linux vs. BSD press problem is not something we created, and, although we happen to be BSD fans, it is not in Darwin's charter to correct for BSD's PR shortcomings with respect to Linux. That said, I think mentioning who our major upstream contributors are is a reasonable idea. | Probably would have avoided the bad PR from | associating with the FSF and OSI, and their incessant struggles about | what's "open source" and "free software". We aren't terribly interested in getting into that debate. What we want to do is to foster an open community around our product, and which terms (free vs,. open) people want to use to describe that isn't all that exciting. We do want to do The Right Thing by our developers and users, including those we bring in via Darwin. | A suggestion: Do you want to regain some PR ground that you've been | loosing due to infighting amongst the FSF and OSI? I don't think Apple has lost any ground due to that debate. I do think that both the FSF and OSI are losing credibility because of it. Aside from OSI's endorsement of Darwin and the FSF's lack thereof, we aren't involved. | Get a gentleman's | agreement about contributing back patches to NetBSD and FreeBSD, and | then do a joint press release with Apple, NetBSD and FreeBSD (and | OpenBSD?). Announce that Darwin has been welcomed into the BSD family, | how the BSD license allows for development of commercial products like | MacOS X Server from the source base and how BSD technology provides an | excellent base for the development of internet servers. I think this is a good idea. Let me run that up the food chain here. -Fred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 17:27:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447221548A for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:27:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id TAA27285 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:27:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:27:00 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: an honor you may not want... (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anyone seen the March 22nd issue of 'The Industry Standard'? I got a note from a co-worker that FreeBSD was mentioned in there. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 17:41:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B6001537E for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:41:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id RAA21139; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA23914; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:36:38 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id SAA27637; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:36:35 -0700 Message-ID: <36F841B0.2581B486@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:36:48 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wsanchez@apple.com Cc: Jeremy Lea , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... References: <199903240030.QAA11060@scv2.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wilfredo Sanchez wrote: > > Note we've been doing this for some time (though not yet with > FreeBSD), independant of Darwin. You guys should consider another name for that project, since the entire UNIX world automagically subsitutes /Darwin/Sun Ultra-5 and Ultra-10/. You're not doing yourselves any favors, and they beat you to the punch by almost a year. > | I think what irritated > | me the most was that Eric Raymond was invited to the launch, and that > | Linux was given most of the credit in the press - while Eric Raymond > | subtly slammed us with comments about Linux having a 'better licensing > | situation and better social organisation'. It would have been really I wonder what he's going to say when the Alan Cox cabal becomes the Linux core team? He's going to look awfully stupid when Linux adopts our "inferior social organization" out of sheer necessity, isn't he? > | nice to have some BSD people there. How about also putting FreeBSD > | on that Dell Poweredge on > http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/apache.html > | or did it beat out the Mac... > > The reason Linux is on the Dell and not FreeBSD, is because that > is a marketing document, and the world knows about Linux, and there > is a perception that Linux tends to kick butt over commercial Still and all, having a BSDer or two hanging around to refute the swill that comes out of ESR's mouth would have been a good idea... > software. In fact, the Linux machine beats the Sun machine in the > picture, so that seems a fair perception. If you want an interesting experiment, try putting Linux on that Sun machine and watch it kick everyone's butt, including yours. Judging the performance of that little SPARC by strangling it with Slowlaris makes marketing sense, but isn't a *fair* test... ;^) Oh, and by the way: cool machine. Knock 'em dead. I'd buy one if I had the bucks. ;^) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 17:48:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB6514E57 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:48:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id TAA20899 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:47:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:47:56 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just found the URL for this article. Then mention is on page 3 of 3 at the very bottom. http://www.thestandard.net/articles/display/0,1449,3779,00.html Definitely not an honorable mention, but a mention nontheless. On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Steve Price wrote: # Anyone seen the March 22nd issue of 'The Industry Standard'? # I got a note from a co-worker that FreeBSD was mentioned in # there. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 17:54:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ciao.cc.columbia.edu (ciao.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.59.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C33152E8 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:53:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: from confusion.net (dialup-cc1-55.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.58.64]) by ciao.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20673; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:49:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36F84464.6117F886@confusion.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:48:20 -0500 From: Laurence Berland Organization: B.R.A.T.T. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: wsanchez@apple.com, Jeremy Lea , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... References: <199903240030.QAA11060@scv2.apple.com> <36F841B0.2581B486@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Whaddaya think'd be faster, the Dell w/FBSD or the Mac? > > > > | nice to have some BSD people there. How about also putting FreeBSD > > | on that Dell Poweredge on > > http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/apache.html > > | or did it beat out the Mac... > > > > The reason Linux is on the Dell and not FreeBSD, is because that > > is a marketing document, and the world knows about Linux, and there > > is a perception that Linux tends to kick butt over commercial > > Still and all, having a BSDer or two hanging around to refute the swill that > comes out of ESR's mouth would have been a good idea... > -- Laurence Berland, Stuyvesant HS Debate <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Windows 98: n. useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. http://stuy.debate.net icq #7434346 aol imer E1101 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 18: 5:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1246415450 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:05:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA25118; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:34:54 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA17384; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:34:53 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990324123452.T425@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:34:52 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Steve Price , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Steve Price on Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 07:47:56PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 23 March 1999 at 19:47:56 -0600, Steve Price wrote: > On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Steve Price wrote: > > # Anyone seen the March 22nd issue of 'The Industry Standard'? > # I got a note from a co-worker that FreeBSD was mentioned in > # there. > > Just found the URL for this article. Then mention is on page > 3 of 3 at the very bottom. > > http://www.thestandard.net/articles/display/0,1449,3779,00.html Make that http://www.thestandard.net/articles/display/0,1449,3779-2,00.html. > Definitely not an honorable mention, but a mention nontheless. Well, nobody ever put it in FreeBSD's charter to exclude specific uses of the system. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 18:23:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374DA15436 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:22:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA07364; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:21:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:21:47 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19990324123452.T425@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: # Make that # http://www.thestandard.net/articles/display/0,1449,3779-2,00.html. Yes, that will work to get you to just the last page. # > Definitely not an honorable mention, but a mention nontheless. # # Well, nobody ever put it in FreeBSD's charter to exclude specific uses # of the system. Please let's not start any religious riots. By 'honorable' I meant they didn't have any blinking red daemons proclaiming that "FreeBSD was the best thing since powdered toast, go here to get your copy". It was one liner in a 3-page article. Maybe the word I was looking for was noteworthy, but then if weren't noteworthy I wouldn't have posted it ... Anyone have a spare thesaurus they can send me. :) # Greg # -- # See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers # finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key # To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 18:43:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from trickster.net (trickster.net [199.1.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A53614D06 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:42:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from travis@trickster.net) Received: from [216.192.171.12] (chi-qbu-nvp-vty12.as.wcom.net [216.192.171.12]) by trickster.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA03221; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:42:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903240242.VAA03221@trickster.net> Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:58:25 -0500 x-sender: travis@wildebeest.trickster.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Travis Ruthenburg To: "Greg Lehey" , "Steve Price" , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I, for one, think it's very amusing that FreeBSD is the server of choice for pornographers everywhere. This seems like an ideal fact to be put to use in advocacy of FreeBSD. For one, pornography servers utilize a lot of bandwidth (with images and all) and need an operating system with the network fperformance for that. I can picture it now, the beastie holding a platter with a nude person on it: "FreeBSD, the power to serve pornography." Regards, On 3/23/99 10:04 PM, Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) uttered: >On Tuesday, 23 March 1999 at 19:47:56 -0600, Steve Price wrote: >> On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Steve Price wrote: >> >> # Anyone seen the March 22nd issue of 'The Industry Standard'? >> # I got a note from a co-worker that FreeBSD was mentioned in >> # there. >> >> Just found the URL for this article. Then mention is on page >> 3 of 3 at the very bottom. >> >> http://www.thestandard.net/articles/display/0,1449,3779,00.html > >Make that >http://www.thestandard.net/articles/display/0,1449,3779-2,00.html. > >> Definitely not an honorable mention, but a mention nontheless. > >Well, nobody ever put it in FreeBSD's charter to exclude specific uses >of the system. > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > Travis Ruthenburg bjork bjork bjork travis@trickster.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 18:57:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 850D9154EE for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:56:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-010.thuntek.net [207.66.52.10]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id TAA29511; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:56:08 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F853DD.55C440B7@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:54:21 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG 57,941,109 unique visitors per month... wow. Did I get THAT order-of-magnitude right? Takes your breath away! -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 19:10:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0060B14C26 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:10:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id TAA87410; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:09:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:09:26 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Travis Ruthenburg Cc: Greg Lehey , Steve Price , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) Message-ID: <19990323190926.A87383@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <199903240242.VAA03221@trickster.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199903240242.VAA03221@trickster.net>; from Travis Ruthenburg on Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 08:58:25PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 08:58:25PM -0500, Travis Ruthenburg wrote: > I, for one, think it's very amusing that FreeBSD is the server of choice > for pornographers everywhere. This seems like an ideal fact to be put to > use in advocacy of FreeBSD. For one, pornography servers utilize a lot of > bandwidth (with images and all) and need an operating system with the > network fperformance for that. And robust! Porn sites get a very large volumes of traffic as well being a favorite place for script-kiddies to hack on. > > I can picture it now, the beastie holding a platter with a nude person on > it: "FreeBSD, the power to serve pornography." The beastie holding a platter with Betty Page on it! Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 19:52: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B7C14CD3 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:52:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA87352; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:50:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Travis Ruthenburg Cc: "Greg Lehey" , "Steve Price" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:58:25 EST." <199903240242.VAA03221@trickster.net> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:50:57 -0800 Message-ID: <87350.922247457@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I, for one, think it's very amusing that FreeBSD is the server of choice > for pornographers everywhere. This seems like an ideal fact to be put to There's a good reason that the daemon has never been shown wearing anything but sneakers. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 20: 4:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-35.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D14A314C19 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:04:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA01126; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:03:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:03:51 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Cc: Brett Glass , Brett Taylor , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <19990323095841.A84311@ontario.mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 10:34:07AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 09:28 AM 3/23/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > > >I assume this means that you are going to stop talking and start writing > > >this emulator. Great, I can't wait to see what you produce. Please build it > > >and prove us all wrong. > > > > Well, I'd be glad to -- but it'd be a Quixotic endeavor without help. Care > > to get involved? > > Sorry, my plate is full but I'm sure there are lots of people who will > help. Try getting some of the Linux people involved. Since this emulator > will be running on Linux you will need at least one person who has a good > understand of the guts of a Linux system. I think there is a book on Linux > Internals. It should be interesting on how you resolve the BSD/GPL > licensing issues with a FreeBSD emulator running on a Linux system. Well, they already have the SCO and DU emulators so those would probably be a good place to start.. And I think that Linus (but not RMS and his coven) are a bit more tame about binary only kernel modules, so I assume that if you're not actually cutting and pasting code you could (without huge riots) release a BSD licensed fbsd emulator... if worse came to worse you could GPL it easily enough (just mention the UCB copyright and that should suffice, right?..).. > Put up a mailing list and a web page. Get yourself a scratch monkey of a > machine and you are on your way. This is probably the most difficult part. I'd be willing to put in some effort (say a few hours/month), but I don't have space for Linux on my box. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 22:33:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from thneed.ubergeeks.com (thneed.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4310B14F7A for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:33:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by thneed.ubergeeks.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA87710; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 01:36:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) X-Authentication-Warning: thneed.ubergeeks.com: adrian owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 01:36:26 -0500 (EST) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Greg Lehey Cc: Steve Price , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19990324123452.T425@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 23 March 1999 at 19:47:56 -0600, Steve Price wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Steve Price wrote: > > > > # Anyone seen the March 22nd issue of 'The Industry Standard'? > > # I got a note from a co-worker that FreeBSD was mentioned in > > # there. > > > > Just found the URL for this article. Then mention is on page > > 3 of 3 at the very bottom. > > > > http://www.thestandard.net/articles/display/0,1449,3779,00.html > > Make that > http://www.thestandard.net/articles/display/0,1449,3779-2,00.html. > > > Definitely not an honorable mention, but a mention nontheless. So where's the SGI port of FreeBSD? from article: Server of choice for e-porn purveyors: Silicon Graphics Origin 2000 OS of choice for e-porn purveyors: FreeBSD Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 23 23:17: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9F0A14E4B for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:17:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA05852; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 02:15:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990324021459.00a7a800@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 02:16:19 -0500 To: Adrian Filipi-Martin From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990324123452.T425@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:36 AM 3/24/99 -0500, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > So where's the SGI port of FreeBSD? > >from article: > > Server of choice for e-porn purveyors: Silicon Graphics Origin 2000 > OS of choice for e-porn purveyors: FreeBSD > > Adrian I dunno, but take a look at the machine: http://www.sgi.com/origin/2000/ pretty cool! "CrayLinkTM Interconnect allow you to add modules and move from one to 128 processors in a single-image system, providing up to 256GB of shared physical memory and 80GB per second of sustained I/O bandwidth." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 0: 0:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC7A14E4B for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:00:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA20043; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:00:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:00:29 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux Message-ID: <19990324000029.B19808@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <4.2.0.32.19990322221248.03ebdf10@localhost> <4.1.19990323010146.00fbf1c0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> <4.2.0.32.19990323084530.04006e50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990323084530.04006e50@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 08:55:34AM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 08:55:34AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > Yes. And they even say so. Look at Jordan's earlier message: > > "I see neither the motivation nor the available talent (at > least in the same package) to make it happen." > > [Translation: I'm killing the motivation by not supporting > the idea, and will tell the best talent we have that this is > not a priority.] Here's that problem again. Selective Glassalization. Jordan is trying to help you with your proposal, not kill the motivation. Such a project is beyond the scope of what you could possibly do yourself. Because Jordan is a core team member, has has unusual insight into the lives of developers with both the ability and time to do this, and he's saying that there are none. If you want to pursue the proposal, you are of course free to do so, but what jkh says is that he doesn't think you'll find the help, because he knows of nobody who both _can_ and _wants to_ do this project. This seems backed up by the general lack of developers dropping in here and saying "Yes, this is great, I'll help". Perhaps this is because nobody knows about it. Perhaps a formal proposal and outline for such a project would help. It's up to you to decide these things, as you are the initiator and main supporter of the proposal. Get a grip, man. Nobody's stopping you from doing anything. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter The best way to accelerate Windows mailto:gsutter@pobox.com is at 9.8 m/s^2. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 0:22:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E027F14BDC for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:22:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA26918; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:49:32 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:49:32 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Zippy Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for Linux Message-ID: <19990324004932.A18040@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Zippy on Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 12:28:19PM -0500 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 12:28:19PM -0500, Zippy wrote: > **** Netscape has shown interest in officially supporting a native FreeBSD > port. All we have to do is get people to send a polite, short email to > nav-support@netscape.com with this request. One per account, please -- > we don't want to kill them with spam. **** I keep seeing this come up. A native FreeBSD port of what? % cd /usr/local/lib/netscape % file navigator-4.5.bin FreeBSD/i386 compact demand paged dynamically linked executable N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 0:34:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from corp.au.triax.com (slwag2p06.ozemail.com.au [203.108.157.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B9014E1F for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:34:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@corp.au.triax.com) Received: (from jim@localhost) by corp.au.triax.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA53434; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:33:31 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:33:30 +1100 From: Jim Mock To: Nik Clayton Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for Linux Message-ID: <19990324193330.A53395@corp.au.triax.com> Reply-To: jim@corp.au.triax.com References: <19990324004932.A18040@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <19990324004932.A18040@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 at 00:49:32 +0000, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 12:28:19PM -0500, Zippy wrote: > > **** Netscape has shown interest in officially supporting a native > > FreeBSD port. All we have to do is get people to send a polite, > > short email to nav-support@netscape.com with this request. One > > per account, please -- we don't want to kill them with spam. **** > > I keep seeing this come up. > > A native FreeBSD port of what? > > % cd /usr/local/lib/netscape > % file navigator-4.5.bin > FreeBSD/i386 compact demand paged dynamically linked executable > The current navtie Netscape ports are unsupported by Netscape. What he's talking about is a native version that they support. -- Jim Mock System Administrator jim@corp.au.triax.com ,-._|\ FreeBSD work: Triax Internet Services http://www.triax.com/ / \ The personal: http://www.triax.com/~jim/ \_,--._/ Power To The FreeBSD 'zine http://www.freebsdzine.org/ v Serve! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 0:37:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF90C154D1 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:37:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Pj9v-0001kj-0B; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:37:08 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA01787; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:36:35 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA01431; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:36:34 GMT Message-ID: <36F8A3F3.1E66A72F@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:36:03 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for Linux References: <19990324004932.A18040@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nik Clayton wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 12:28:19PM -0500, Zippy wrote: > > **** Netscape has shown interest in officially supporting a native FreeBSD > > port. All we have to do is get people to send a polite, short email to > > nav-support@netscape.com with this request. One per account, please -- > > we don't want to kill them with spam. **** > > I keep seeing this come up. > > A native FreeBSD port of what? > > % cd /usr/local/lib/netscape > % file navigator-4.5.bin > FreeBSD/i386 compact demand paged dynamically linked executable > Yes, but if you go to Netscape's ftp site (can't remember the exact URL off the top of my head) to d/l it you find the FreeBSD version in the "unsupported" sub-directory so Netscape don't actually maintain/develop it. > N > -- > Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 0:51:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35FE3151CA for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 00:51:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10PjNU-000FsI-0C; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:51:09 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA01866; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:50:40 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA01580; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:50:38 GMT Message-ID: <36F8A73F.D637EFAC@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:50:07 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Adkins Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) References: <19990324123452.T425@lemis.com> <4.1.19990324021459.00a7a800@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Adkins wrote: > > At 01:36 AM 3/24/99 -0500, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > > So where's the SGI port of FreeBSD? > > > >from article: > > > > Server of choice for e-porn purveyors: Silicon Graphics Origin 2000 > > OS of choice for e-porn purveyors: FreeBSD > > > > Adrian > > I dunno, but take a look at the machine: http://www.sgi.com/origin/2000/ > pretty cool! > > "CrayLinkTM Interconnect allow you to add > modules and move from one to 128 processors in > a single-image system, providing up to 256GB of > shared physical memory and 80GB per second of > sustained I/O bandwidth." > Talking of SGI, what do you reckon the chances of getting FreeBSD to run on their new NT workstation? AFAIK it uses the standard i386 NT but presumably SGI have had write drivers for the proprietry h/w?. This machine just goes to show what the i386 processor is capable of when you remove the need to maintain backward compatibility with yesterdays technology, graphics data bandwidth is *six* times that of the AGP 2x bus, and what about that wide-screen LCD display (drool). I pointed out to a Windows-ite in the office that it takes a Unix company, free from the shackles of backward-compatibility, to show what the P-II is really capable of. His reply was "It takes a Unix company to produce incompatible, non-standard hardware" and then went rambling on about how important it was to continue supporting the 8.33MHz ISA bus on half-GHz PCs :-( SPECIAL OFFER: Free with every copy of Windows, a pair of blinkers. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 2:12:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rt2.synx.com (tech.boostworks.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C7F14BE9 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 02:12:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@synx.com) Received: from synx.com (rn.synx.com [192.1.1.241]) by rt2.synx.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA03626 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:19:57 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199903241019.LAA03626@rt2.synx.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:11:37 +0100 (CET) From: Remy Nonnenmacher Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI' To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FYI http://www.lmi.fr/c12565ef002d29ae/996ef68a9fd10db3c125669e00311b6a/d1e004841bd6acf0c125673800518e6a?OpenDocument For English readers: Summary: - FreeBSD is an unrecognized but powerfull System, - Ascent, Yahoo and a lot more use it (as for BSDI and NetBSD) - WC do better job with 1 machine than M$ with 40 NT - Built on the elegant and rock-solid 4.4BSD (Note that SysV is qualified as 'monolitic' and 'less efficient', as for Linux). - Even Gartner regonizes it : http://advisor.gartner.com/n_inbox/hotcontent/hc_2121999_3.html RN. IhM To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 6:44:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97178151EE for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:44:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id XAA20498; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:44:17 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36F8F9D8.97CE38DB@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:42:32 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Donald Wilde Cc: Steve Price , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) References: <36F853DD.55C440B7@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde wrote: > > 57,941,109 unique visitors per month... wow. Did I get THAT > order-of-magnitude right? Takes your breath away! I have serious doubts about the "unique"... :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Someone's trying to hack into our server." "Wow... How flattering!" "I know. There must be some mistake." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 6:46:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fbsd.omaha.com (unknown [207.252.120.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A3B15434 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:46:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@omaha.com) Received: from localhost (opsys@localhost) by fbsd.omaha.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id IAA00899 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:45:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from opsys@omaha.com) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd.omaha.com: opsys owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:45:57 -0600 (CST) From: "Open Systems Inc." X-Sender: opsys@localhost To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: URL for linux adopting "core team"? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anyone have a URL for the post about linux adopting a "core team"? I know its out there somewhere. Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 6:47:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED7ED15155 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:47:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-047.thuntek.net [207.66.52.47]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA02874; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:47:22 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F8FA9E.2E04D1E0@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:45:50 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) References: <36F853DD.55C440B7@thuntek.net> <36F8F9D8.97CE38DB@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > Donald Wilde wrote: > > > > 57,941,109 unique visitors per month... wow. Did I get THAT > > order-of-magnitude right? Takes your breath away! > > I have serious doubts about the "unique"... :-) > so do I, but even if not, that's still 80,000 hits an hour. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 6:50: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED59E14DBA for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:48:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA21870; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:48:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36F8FB3B.96F7E718@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:48:27 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: remy@synx.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI' References: <199903241019.LAA03626@rt2.synx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Remy Nonnenmacher wrote: > > FYI > > http://www.lmi.fr/c12565ef002d29ae/996ef68a9fd10db3c125669e00311b6a/d1e004841bd6acf0c125673800518e6a?OpenDocument > > For English readers: Summary: A nice article. Non French readers can get a somewhat stilted translation from Babelfish. Browse http://babelfish.altavista.com/ paste the above URL into the box, select French to English translation, and fire. Or dig up your limited, 20-year-old high school French and have a go at it. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 6:50: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 730AE14DBF for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:49:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id XAA21388; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:48:45 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36F8FAE5.532CE5B5@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:47:01 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Travis Ruthenburg , Greg Lehey , Steve Price , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) References: <87350.922247457@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > I, for one, think it's very amusing that FreeBSD is the server of choice > > for pornographers everywhere. This seems like an ideal fact to be put to > > There's a good reason that the daemon has never been shown wearing > anything but sneakers. You'll wish you never had said that... :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Someone's trying to hack into our server." "Wow... How flattering!" "I know. There must be some mistake." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 7:13:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 616EF14C19 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:13:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id AAA26850; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:13:36 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36F900B0.60B0A83D@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:11:44 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Marketing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey, they must be reading the Brett Glass' threads! :-) http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99mar/19990324.html -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "There's a good reason that the daemon has never been shown wearing anything but sneakers." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 7:34: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAEC114CE7 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:34:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id KAA27202; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xma018691; Wed, 24 Mar 99 10:18:37 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:18:31 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for Linux In-reply-to: <19990324004932.A18040@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> To: Nik Clayton Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG A native SUPPORTED FreeBSD port of Navigator/Communicator. Note that on Netscape's download site, the native port is in the "unsupported" column, while several ports (including one for Linux) are supported. The advantage to having a supported port is that Netscape commits to making the latest releases of the software available at the same time (or close to the time) that the other "supported" versions are released. Note that the native port for FreeBSD (at least last week) did not include 4.51. SB On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 12:28:19PM -0500, Zippy wrote: > > **** Netscape has shown interest in officially supporting a native FreeBSD > > port. All we have to do is get people to send a polite, short email to > > nav-support@netscape.com with this request. One per account, please -- > > we don't want to kill them with spam. **** > > I keep seeing this come up. > > A native FreeBSD port of what? > > % cd /usr/local/lib/netscape > % file navigator-4.5.bin > FreeBSD/i386 compact demand paged dynamically linked executable > > N > -- > Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 7:37: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797C114FE3 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:37:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-047.thuntek.net [207.66.52.47]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA11192 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:36:43 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F90630.93B7F630@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:35:12 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: It's official! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am proud to be able to announce that Bob Bruce of Walnut Creek CDROM and I have reached agreement for my company, Wilde Media, to act as a paid consultant to The FreeBSD Project for the purposes of expanding our advocacy and paid public relations efforts. Mr. Bruce, a longtime supporter of the Project, believes that it is in his enlightened self-interest to advance the cause of FreeBSD, and we who are users all appreciate his many years of financial and resource support for the Project. We both believe that FreeBSD's ace in the hole is the BSD license, because it enables users to create profitable applications like Yahoo! without encumbrance by onerous license restrictions like the GPL and other more-restrictive legalisms. People with money have more time for philanthropy, and the steady growth of FreeBSD is evidence that people who make success and profit from their use of FreeBSD do contribute time and code back to the mother source tree. Our tack is going to be to take the highest high road here, that FreeBSD is both better and restriction-free than any other OS, but we're not going to descend into flame wars. We have the gift. If others choose to use another OS or more restrictive software, that is their choice. We of FreeBSD are going to concentrate on improving our system, promoting it fairly, making money through its use, and helping others do the same. You will not see hype coming from us, and we hope you also will restrain yourselves for the sake of FreeBSD's image. There are many projects we have in mind, and the primary focus of my effort is going to be coordinating and providing lots of resources and incentives for you all to be better prepared and have more fun supporting the Project. We all know what a gift FreeBSD is, and now we have the resources to place it firmly on the map as the pre-eminent Open Source Server Operating System available to the world. We will also be adding focus on the desktop market and working on enhancing our CPUshare in the consumer market, additions which will not diminish our technical superiority in the server market. I will be using this forum to coordinate requests for specific project support from you, and we will also be expanding the ../advocacy sections on both FreeBSD.org and FreeBSDMall.com with downloadable resources, coordination calendars and request forms for many, many things. We will also be enlisting the aid of DaemonNews and the other e-zines to expand on our plans and the reasoning behind them, so that you are all informed advocates. Jordan Hubbard will continue to be "The FreeBSD Guy". This is intended to free him up to tackle even more exciting things planned for FreeBSD's future, and we're all excited about the new possibilities. We are all planning to meet in Concord on the 8th of April, in conjunction with the Bay Area FreeBSD Users' Group meeting, for a major strategy conference and announcements of strategic and tactical goals. Let me say finally that we all know that we cannot achieve our goals without your continuing support in time and effort. Other OSen have a huge lead and much more in the way of resources and money, but our view is of the long term, where we are the small furry mammals scurrying around under the feet of the clashing dinosaurs, and we will someday pick their bones. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 8:37:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (danman.isdn.uiuc.edu [192.17.16.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E7DA414E5A for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:37:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 10756 invoked by uid 1000); 24 Mar 1999 16:37:29 -0000 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:37:29 -0600 From: dannyman To: Brian Adkins Cc: Adrian Filipi-Martin , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) Message-ID: <19990324103729.A10649@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <19990324123452.T425@lemis.com> <4.1.19990324021459.00a7a800@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990324021459.00a7a800@mailbox.iwaynet.net>; from Brian Adkins on Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 02:16:19AM -0500 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 02:16:19AM -0500, Brian Adkins wrote: > I dunno, but take a look at the machine: http://www.sgi.com/origin/2000/ > pretty cool! > > "CrayLinkTM Interconnect allow you to add > modules and move from one to 128 processors in > a single-image system, providing up to 256GB of > shared physical memory and 80GB per second of > sustained I/O bandwidth." Yeah, my school has one with 1024 processors. Too bad it has to run IRIX though. :) http://access.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Headlines/990304.O2K.html -dman -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 11:14:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB23A1501C for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:14:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-152.thuntek.net [207.66.52.152]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id MAA21600 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:14:12 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F93929.A88B20AE@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:12:41 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: a call for s/w support Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm going to need to build a web-interfaced database for our advocacy work, and I'd like your help, suggestions and pointers to links to getting it done. I've built it before in Perl, but I'd like to do it in C++ because I want everything we do to be BSD-license-clean. PostgreSQL is my database of choice for the same reason. What we're going to need is a database interface for input and a calendar-output, for starters. My Perl code has input and table display, but I never did much record-locking beyond rudimentary lockouts, although that's probably good enough because we can queue input requests to an admin interface; that'll be close enough. In general, I'm going to need a lot of Web support from you all. I have been asked to find people to take "ownership" of sections of the advocacy pages on the FreeBSD.org and FreeBSDMall.com websites. We're going to be adding a lot of material: calendars, web forms for resource requests, project organizers, 'prototypes' for seminars and user group projects, selling points and marketing strategies for FreeBSD, and incentive opportunities for participation. We want this site to become a showcase for how FreeBSD can support a major logistics operation for businesses and non-profits alike. My philosophy is "code it once and let the computer do the work forever after!" TIA! -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 11:21:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A275D14CBE for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:21:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22069; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:20:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:20:20 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Nik Clayton Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for Linux In-Reply-To: <19990324004932.A18040@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > A native FreeBSD port of what? > > % cd /usr/local/lib/netscape > % file navigator-4.5.bin > FreeBSD/i386 compact demand paged dynamically linked executable Not just native, but supported! FreeBSD is one of many unsupported ports which means they're last in line to get built etc. Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 11:23:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6884015038 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:23:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22079; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:22:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:22:05 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Mark Ovens Cc: Brian Adkins , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <36F8A73F.D637EFAC@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > I pointed out to a Windows-ite in the office that it takes a Unix > company, free from the shackles of backward-compatibility, to show > what the P-II is really capable of. His reply was "It takes a Unix > company to produce incompatible, non-standard hardware" and then went > rambling on about how important it was to continue supporting the > 8.33MHz ISA bus on half-GHz PCs :-( Like, um Winmodems? Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 13:16:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lion.plab.ku.dk (lion.plab.ku.dk [130.225.105.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0790914BD8 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:16:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tobez@lion.plab.ku.dk) Received: (from tobez@localhost) by lion.plab.ku.dk (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA48341; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:15:24 +0100 (CET) To: Donald Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a call for s/w support References: <36F93929.A88B20AE@thuntek.net> From: Anton Berezin Date: 24 Mar 1999 22:15:24 +0100 In-Reply-To: Donald Wilde's message of Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:12:41 -0700 Message-ID: <864sna613n.fsf@lion.plab.ku.dk> Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 - on FreeBSD 4.0-current Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde writes: > I'm going to need to build a web-interfaced database for our > advocacy work, and I'd like your help, suggestions and pointers to > links to getting it done. I've built it before in Perl, but I'd like > to do it in C++ because I want everything we do to be > BSD-license-clean. I don't think it's a wise decision. How the fact that your scripts are written in Perl can harm your advocacy efforts? I can see no difference between creating the scripts using GPLed gcc and not-quite-as-GPLed perl! One is even able to choose between GPL and Artistic licenses for Perl stuff. Also, nobody can hold you from releasing your perl scripts with whatever license you like. Aside from that, the whole idea seems to me like a waste of time and efforts. Perl is simply better suited for the job. -- Anton Berezin The Protein Laboratory, University of Copenhagen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 13:52:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9557914C0B for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:52:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id WAA02950; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:51:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: Greg Lehey , Steve Price , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: an honor you may not want... (fwd) References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 Mar 1999 22:51:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin's message of "Wed, 24 Mar 1999 01:36:26 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Adrian Filipi-Martin writes: > Server of choice for e-porn purveyors: Silicon Graphics Origin 2000 > OS of choice for e-porn purveyors: FreeBSD Actually, I think they misspelled Origin 200. The O2000 is a number cruncher - useless (not to mention much too expensive) for pr0n sites. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 13:56:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com (uswgco3.uswest.com [206.196.133.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30FB14F33 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:56:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mmeola@ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com) Received: from egate.mnet.uswest.com (mailgate.uswc.uswest.com [151.119.130.8]) by uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17776; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:56:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from smokey.uswc.uswest.com (smokey.uswc.uswest.com [151.119.16.10]) by egate.mnet.uswest.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA20390; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:55:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com (ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com [151.116.151.207]) by smokey.uswc.uswest.com (8.6.11/uswc-hub.950320) with ESMTP id OAA06718; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:54:58 -0700 Received: from ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com (localhost.uswc.uswest.com [127.0.0.1]) by ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com (8.6.11/uswc-server.950313) with ESMTP id OAA14334; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:54:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199903242154.OAA14334@ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 From: Matt Meola To: Donald Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a call for s/w support In-Reply-To: <36F93929.A88B20AE@thuntek.net> References: <36F93929.A88B20AE@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed ; boundary="==_Exmh_1111627420" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:54:25 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multipart MIME message. --==_Exmh_1111627420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ya know, Python has a BSD-like license; it's small enough that it's attached. --==_Exmh_1111627420 Content-Type: text/plain ; name="COPYRIGHT"; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: COPYRIGHT Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="COPYRIGHT" Copyright 1991-1995 by Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam, The Netherlands. All Rights Reserved Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation, and that the names of Stichting Mathematisch Centrum or CWI or Corporation for National Research Initiatives or CNRI not be used in advertising or publicity pertaining to distribution of the software without specific, written prior permission. While CWI is the initial source for this software, a modified version is made available by the Corporation for National Research Initiatives (CNRI) at the Internet address ftp://ftp.python.org. STICHTING MATHEMATISCH CENTRUM AND CNRI DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE, INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS, IN NO EVENT SHALL STICHTING MATHEMATISCH CENTRUM OR CNRI BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE. --==_Exmh_1111627420-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 14: 9:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB24C14BE3 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA12845; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:10:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:10:29 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Matt Meola Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a call for s/w support In-Reply-To: <199903242154.OAA14334@ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Matt Meola wrote: > Ya know, Python has a BSD-like license; it's small enough that it's > attached. There's not reason not to use Perl, if it's the best language for the job (and if it's already done, most importantly). Perl scripts can be released under any license the author likes. Last thing we need to start off with is a big NIH project. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 14:34:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05EFB14D98 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:34:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-163.thuntek.net [207.66.52.163]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id PAA03491; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:33:30 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F967E8.6AA3B5BF@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:32:08 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: Matt Meola , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a call for s/w support References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As I just told Anton, I have my reasons. We're promoting BSD as a platform for what can be accomplished quickly with BSD-licensed software. Although gcc is encumbered, code produced with it is not. We are attempting to showcase what can be accomplished for profit by companies who adopt BSD-license source code. For future reference, I'm asking for help doing what I have planned to do, not suggestions on how to do it differently, and I'm not going to get dragged into wasting my fingers typing answers to Perl or Python or Scheme or Smalltalk or Assembler suggestions... Please respect this, I've got a job to do. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 14:54:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3526814BF5 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:54:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA13569; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:55:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:55:02 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Donald Wilde Cc: Matt Meola , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a call for s/w support In-Reply-To: <36F967E8.6AA3B5BF@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > As I just told Anton, I have my reasons. We're promoting BSD as a > platform for what can be accomplished quickly with BSD-licensed > software. Although gcc is encumbered, code produced with it is not. Nor are Perl scripts, Don. Look, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse or play semantics with you. I see no sense in rewriting your existing application in C++ because of licensing resteictions which simply do not exist. Source code is not produced with either gcc or the Perl interpreter (I produce most of my own source code with vi). The binaries generated by both are unencumbered. Only the tools themselves are encumbered, and Perl is less encumbered than gcc. > We are attempting to showcase what can be accomplished for profit by > companies who adopt BSD-license source code. Then don't waste time reinventing the wheel, if it's truly unnecessary. There may be perfectly legitimate reasons to recode the thing in C++. Licensing isn't one of them. Perl source code can and has been released under BSD licenses. > For future reference, I'm asking for help doing what I have planned to > do, not suggestions on how to do it differently, and I'm not going to > get dragged into wasting my fingers typing answers to Perl or Python or > Scheme or Smalltalk or Assembler suggestions... Please respect this, > I've got a job to do. And I'm truly overjoyed you're on the job. But I'd rather not see you waste your resources on a recode job if it's not necessary. Cheers, Mick P.S. I'll trim you out of any future replies, if you'd like. The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 15: 7:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACE914F54 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:07:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-163.thuntek.net [207.66.52.163]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id QAA13818; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:07:00 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F96FC3.698394B2@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:05:39 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a call for s/w support References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jasper O'Malley wrote: > [snip] > And I'm truly overjoyed you're on the job. But I'd rather not see you > waste your resources on a recode job if it's not necessary. > > Cheers, > Mick > > P.S. I'll trim you out of any future replies, if you'd like. > Not necessary, and I'm not too stuck up to admit that Jordan just e-mailed me privately to say exactly the same thing. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 16: 8: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370B314F8D for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:08:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08984; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:07:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd008931; Wed Mar 24 17:07:38 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05081; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:07:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903250007.RAA05081@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux To: brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu (Brett Taylor) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:07:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brett Taylor" at Mar 22, 99 10:07:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I'm beginning to think it's not worth even trying to talk sense to you > > folks regarding PR, much less contribute time or code. > > You've suggested the following things that I remember recently: > > - that the Linux emulator has been bad for FreeBSD > > This is contrary to every person I've hooked on FreeBSD. They appreciate > the fact that its stable AND that they can run the preponderance of Linux > apps that are available. I'm actually the origin of this idea. Well, not actually. Ashton-Tate is the true origin. I'm dating myself by saying this, but.... Back in the days of dBase III, anyone who wanted to sell dBase III based programs had to not only sell their program to their customer, but they also had to sell them dBase III. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why Clipper made such a big splash: by removing the dBase III runtime requirement, it halved the amount of selling you had to do. I think that Linux emulation is bounded by two arguments: 1) It's clearly necessary, in that it allows FreeBSD to woo Linux users to FreeBSD, and to bolster sagging native applications statistics with Linux statistics. 2) It's clearly damaging to the availability of native FreeBSD software, since it (effectively) pays developers a positive differential for *only* developeing for Linux, rather than creating Linux AND FreeBSD native binaries. At this point someone will yell "CDE! CDE!", and point out that, because FreeBSD users didn't want to buy a particular niche native binary from a vendor who had been sold a rope, that there therefore must be no market whatsoever for native FreeBSD binaries. The problem with this particular instance is that FreeBSD "Osborne'd" the native vendor by promising a "soon-to-be-released-new-version", and the vendor was over-sold on the potential market, and then under-delivered. There is a market for FreeBSD native binaries. This can be stated as fact, given that people buy binaries (including Linux binaries) to run on FreeBSD. But how do you size this market? First, you have to subtract out all of the people running the Linux software under emulation because they simply couldn't wait. Then you have to take the support differential, and compare it to the remaining number of potential sales that a native binary would buy you. You may damn the source, but Brett's OS/2 analogy is apt. I personally think that a FreeBSD emulation layer for Linux, and other OS's, is important for FreeBSD, from a marketing standpoint. From a technical standpoint, Solaris and SCO are implementing Linux emulation as well. The Linux ABI looks to be gaining momentum as the cross-x86 UNIX ABI. This is technically very bad. Consequences range from loss of editorial control of the FreeBSD ABI to what pass as architects in the Linux camps(*) all the way through rendering FreeBSD meaningless to everyone but people with direct control over its direction -- practically a branch of Linux. It's important that FreeBSD define its long term goals, such that short term decisions, such as whether or not a FreeBSD ABI for Linux should receive project attention or effort, can be held up against those long term goals. FreeBSD needs to devise a vision that can be used as a litmus test, to keep it from ratholing down discussions on whether proposed work has merit or not. (*) I am not criticizing Linux coders here; being agile has its merits. But being agile in your ABI definition is frankly a nightmare for the poor application vendors chained to the back of your pickup truck like a forgotton hound. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. > > - that the ports tree should support every version of FreeBSD > > I asked if you'd even approached Satoshi or Mike Smith about your idea, > since they are working on the new package system. You haven't answered > that yet. Do you have anything in mind other than this vague, if not > noble, idea, like how possibly to implement it? Do you _really_ > understand how the current ports system works? That's step one. Talking > to Mike and/or Satoshi is step 2. And not just "I'd like to have X > happen," wo/ any idea how to implement it. > > - that a FreeBSD emulator should be created for Linux in the hopes > that this would make people write directly for FreeBSD > > You are the _only_ one I've heard support this. Not one person to my > recall has suggested this is a workable idea other than you. Sure it'd be > nice if every app was built to run natively on FreeBSD, but it's not > reality nor is that likely to change just because an emulator exists. > Companies will say "sure there's this FreeBSD emulator for Linux, but they > have roughly 1/6th the number of installations _and_ can emulate Linux. > Let's just write for Linux." Linux people will certainly not drop writing > for the Linux API just because there's suddenly a FreeBSD emulator and if > you really believe that ... > > > The problem Brett is that all of the things you have suggested/proposed > have _no_ backing from anyone but you (for whatever reasons), I believe > because they sound mostly like ideas wo/ any real plan on how to do it. > I'd love to see a ports mechanism that supports all the FreeBSD versions > (at least back to 2.2.8), but I doubt it'll ever happen. There just > aren't people to work on it. You keep saying you'll write code but I'm > not even convinced you have a clear idea of how you even want to start > this ports project you suggested. > > Even if you couldn't do this, you could, in a relatively easy manner (at > least compared to this nebulous porting mechanism) try to just maintain a > tree of ports that are up-to-date for 2.2.8. You'd never be able to do it > alone, but I'm sure if you asked nicely and had some, say 10, people who > were really dedicated it could be done w/ a lot of work. > > As it is I haven't even seen you attempt to fix or maintain one port. I > suggested doing libgtop. You refused that because "it's GPL." I got news > for you - people want to run Gnome (go see -questions or -ports for an > idea of how many people are trying to get them to compile) and Gnome needs > glibtop. > > If it's still such a personal affront to you to maintain/fix a port that > is GPL'ed go find a port that you use that has: > > MAINTAINER= ports@freebsd.org > > that isn't GPL'ed and maintain it. As I told you before, there are lots, > 145 in my tree (wo/ any of the foreign language ports), of ports which > need maintainers. Maintaining a single port would be a great way for you > to get a good introductory knowledge of how the ports system works and how > you might be able to implement your idea. Heck Bill Fenner sends out a > "homeless ports that need help" list once a week. Pick one from the list > and fix it. Often times it just needs to have the distfile updated. But > again, you haven't even done that. > > Since you've been posting regularly to -advocacy, the only thing I've seen > from you is grandiose ideas and no clear idea how to implement them or > even willingness to do any work as simple as it may be (such as > maintaining a port or fixing it so it will work for 2.2.8). > > Jordan hit it on the head when he said you just seem to shoot from the > hip, seeing what you hit. > > Brett Taylor > *********************************************************** > Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * > brett@daemonnews.org * > * > http://www.daemonnews.org/ * > *********************************************************** > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 17: 2:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06E814C0F for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:02:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id RAA03361; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:00:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA26031; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:00:21 -0800 Received: from thrallo.utah.xylan.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id SAA21713; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:00:08 -0700 Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux From: Wes Peters Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <199903250007.RAA05081@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: <000346da085df88c_mailit@thrallo.utah.xylan.com> References: <199903250007.RAA05081@usr09.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:59:47 -0800 X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 2.0 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu (bretttaylor), tlambert@primenet.com Cc: brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert opined: >There is a market for FreeBSD native binaries. This can be stated >as fact, given that people buy binaries (including Linux binaries) >to run on FreeBSD. But how do you size this market? By getting the vendors to count it. What this has to do with a FreeBSD emulator in Linux is completely beyond me. >You may damn the source, but Brett's OS/2 analogy is apt. This is exactly what I disagree with; the OS/2 analogy is not apt regardless of the source. OS/2 died for a number of reasons, not the least of which was that IBM marketed it horribly and delivered a non-working system for the first several major releases. We all seem to be forgetting (or perhaps never knew) that OS/2 3.0 was the first release of OS/2 that wasn't a stinking heap of useless floppy disks. I still have my 2.1 release, you're welcome to it if you want to see what a marvelous system it was. >I personally think that a FreeBSD emulation layer for Linux, and >other OS's, is important for FreeBSD, from a marketing standpoint. I personally think a FreeBSD emulation layer for Linux is a huge waste of time, because I strongly doubt you will get Linus to put it in the kernel, nor will you ever convince any of the major distributors -- i.e. RedHat and nobody else these days -- to put it in their distribution. >From a technical standpoint, Solaris and SCO are implementing Linux >emulation as well. The Linux ABI looks to be gaining momentum as >the cross-x86 UNIX ABI. This is technically very bad. And there is not a damned thing we can do about it, because this decision is being made by EXACTLY the sort of people who'd be running FreeBSD instead of Linux if they had any sense at all. Cogito ergo Doh! So, what do you do? Get some talented FreeBSD hackers willing to keep up with the shifting sands of the Linux ABI as well as possible, point out to people that most Linux apps run on FreeBSD too, so they're not risking much, and do an effective job of advocacy in getting the vendors to decide which side of the open source bread the butter is on. The one point you and Brett have missed the entire time: it doesn't matter one whit whether the app is a Linux or FreeBSD binary, as long as it runs reliably and solves the user's problem. Getting vendors to *test* their apps on FreeBSD under emulation, and bug-fix THAT, is by far enough of a win for us. We should be concentrating on THAT effort rather than developing software for Linux that nobody, not a single Linux OR FreeBSD user, is ever going to use. I managed to stay out of this lunatic argument for 24 hours, and I'm out of it permanently now. Terry, I'm sure Brett would be glad to have your talents in developing this silly doodad, just don't ask me to be your beta-tester on this one. No way, no how. ;^) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 17:37:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C831314EF3 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:37:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24998; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:37:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd024977; Wed Mar 24 18:36:57 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA12426; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:36:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903250136.SAA12426@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux To: wes@softweyr.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:36:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu, tlambert@primenet.com, brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <000346da085df88c_mailit@thrallo.utah.xylan.com> from "Wes Peters" at Mar 24, 99 05:59:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >There is a market for FreeBSD native binaries. This can be stated > >as fact, given that people buy binaries (including Linux binaries) > >to run on FreeBSD. But how do you size this market? > > By getting the vendors to count it. What this has to do with a > FreeBSD emulator in Linux is completely beyond me. You have to subtract out FreeBSD users using Linux binaries from the FreeBSD native binary market size. > >You may damn the source, but Brett's OS/2 analogy is apt. > > This is exactly what I disagree with; the OS/2 analogy is not apt > regardless of the source. OS/2 died for a number of reasons, not > the least of which was that IBM marketed it horribly and delivered > a non-working system for the first several major releases. Let's divorce that little "and" as "necessary but not sufficient". So your posit is that FreeBSD is being marketed better than OS/2 was? > >I personally think that a FreeBSD emulation layer for Linux, and > >other OS's, is important for FreeBSD, from a marketing standpoint. > > I personally think a FreeBSD emulation layer for Linux is a huge waste > of time, because I strongly doubt you will get Linus to put it in the > kernel, nor will you ever convince any of the major distributors -- > i.e. RedHat and nobody else these days -- to put it in their distribution. That's rather irrelevent, even if I think you're wrong. Large portions of the Linux kernel are distributed as kernel modules, and as the recent Red Hat articles point out, all Red Hat cares about is units shipped. > >From a technical standpoint, Solaris and SCO are implementing Linux > >emulation as well. The Linux ABI looks to be gaining momentum as > >the cross-x86 UNIX ABI. This is technically very bad. > > And there is not a damned thing we can do about it, because this decision > is being made by EXACTLY the sort of people who'd be running FreeBSD > instead of Linux if they had any sense at all. Cogito ergo Doh! I don't understand your statement. Why would the Solaris and SCO employees dwho made the decision to write the Linux ABI code be running FreeBSD? > So, what do you do? Get some talented FreeBSD hackers willing to keep > up with the shifting sands of the Linux ABI as well as possible, point > out to people that most Linux apps run on FreeBSD too, so they're not > risking much, and do an effective job of advocacy in getting the vendors > to decide which side of the open source bread the butter is on. This limits you to a zero sum game the size of the Linux market. > The one point you and Brett have missed the entire time: it doesn't > matter one whit whether the app is a Linux or FreeBSD binary, as long > as it runs reliably and solves the user's problem. And here's the one point that you and Jordan have missed the entire time: It doesn't matter one whit TO THE USER whether the app is a Linux or FreeBSD binary, as long as it runs reliably and solves the user's problem. It doesn't matter one whit TO THE USER whether they are running the app on a Linux or a FreeBSD system. But it matters a hell of a lot to FreeBSD whether the app is a Linux or FreeBSD binary, in terms of gaining critical mass And it matters a hell of a lot to FreeBSD whether the app is running on a Linux or a FreeBSD system. > Getting vendors to > *test* their apps on FreeBSD under emulation, and bug-fix THAT, is by > far enough of a win for us. We should be concentrating on THAT effort > rather than developing software for Linux that nobody, not a single > Linux OR FreeBSD user, is ever going to use. Demonstrate success at this, and I may be willing to join your bandwagon caliming that the number of native FreeBSD apps in the future is irrelevent. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 21:46: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EAFE14E05 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:46:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id XAA00363 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:45:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:45:45 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Is IBM pro-Linux? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This just in, hot off one of the debian lists. :) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:05:50 -0500 (EST) From: Phillip R. Jaenke To: Jor-el Cc: James A. Treacy , Jonathan Walther , debian-devel@lists.debian.org Subject: Time to make a stand. (Was: Re: IBM 390) Resent-Date: 25 Mar 1999 05:19:49 -0000 Resent-From: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ; On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Jor-el wrote: > Jay, > I work at IBM too, and I had heard about this on the internal > fora. Since I was bound by my confidentiality agreement about statement > made on those fora, I didnt mention it. But now that the cat is out of the > bag... > The thing to remember about this (and there were very few details > mentioned) is that IBM management did its best to squash the port into > non-existence : Linux on S/390 hardware would be a direct competitor to > Open-Edition MVS - which is the IBM version of UNIX on OS/390. So I > wouldnt hold my breath waiting for a URL, or for IBM to release the code. > I doubt if they would even sell it. Hrm. I'm definitely getting the feeling IBM isn't really supportive of Linux on RS/6000's. Especially since they're only porting to the F40's and F50's, and a few 43P's. All machines that can boot Linux, and have been able to for *months*. So, now that we can safely assume IBM is really anti-Linux when it cuts into their profits (in the case of Netfinitys and desktops, it doesn't. They pay for Windows, and resell it. They develop and sell AIX and several other OSes for their hardware.), it's time to ask the IBMers out here in debian-devel for some big help. And not just the IBMers. Everyone. Jor-el; You've got the model number. Feed us specs. Feed me architecture and hardware documentation; the more in depth and detailed, the better. Share it with the world through me. (I promise to only list my sources for information as 'anonymous,' not even 'anonymous IBM employee.') IBM wants to play like that, *fine*. They should have known better than to play like that against me. Hell, I get *paid* now to put Linux on RS/6000's and other obscure and strange hardware. (If you don't consider a Unisys Aquanta DS6 obscure and/or strange, you obviously haven't seen one. ;) Developers of the world unite! Let this be our battlecry, from this day henceforth! Let NO obscurity, no license, no closed-mouthed vendors hinder our progress any further! Let no architecture remain unexplored, let no piece of hardware remain unsupported! Let NOONE and NOTHING stand in the way of not only knowledge, but also technology and the future! WE are the developers of today. WE are the developers of tomorrow. Without developers, computers would be non-existant. So let NOTHING stand in the way of our search for knowledge, our quest for the future, and our dedication to our projects! ...okay, so it was corny. But it's what I feel needs to be said. As usual, I'm just going to come right out and say it folks. And this time without being all corny and flowery and such. I'm putting Linux on the RS/6000. So are others. More and more people are every day. And IBM's trying to stop those of us who want to see it on *every* RS/6000, not just a few that will soon be phased out of production. You, or someone you know, may soon be putting Linux on a K6/2. Or a 21164. Or a PowerPC 604e. Or a StrongARM 200. Or any other processor out there. Every day, more people are installing Linux. It's our job, as developers and supporters of not just Linux, but free software; software without silly licensing politics, to give these people an ALTERNATIVE to what's out there! No one man is an island; but one man *can* make a difference. Many people, working together, can change the world if they set their minds to it. That's the way things work. It's time for all of us, as a community, to make things work the way *we* want them to. It's time to put an end to single-operating system architectures. It's time to put an end to single-operating system software. It's time to put an end to overpricing, to idiotic leasing, to horrid licensing. It's time to tear down the walls. It's time to show that there are *NO* limits to what we can do when we choose to. I don't know about you, but I've already made my choice. Not IBM, not Motorola, not ANYONE shall stand in my way. I've set out to To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 22: 3:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A8F15027 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:03:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19237 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA29524 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:02:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:02:45 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Branding.... Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey all, I'm not good enough of an artist to draw it, but I have what I think is a good idea for the branding images. Take the "new daemon" design (such as in the newest images on the web pages, like for news). Put his head in the center with one hand sticking out in front giving a thumbs up. Then you have the text circled around him, with FreeBSD around the bottom, and either "Designed for" or "Works with" around the top. You can even have him winking. It looks great in my head, I just don't have the talent to set it to image. I do have an incredibly bad, bad, bad, very bad, attempt at drawing this at http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/freebsd.html. Perhaps it will get my idea across better than my words above, though. It just needs a real artist to draw it instead of a programmer/sysadmin who likes to dink around in the GIMP. --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 22: 4:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002CC15171 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:04:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-072.thuntek.net [207.66.52.72]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id XAA24881; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:03:56 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F9D184.8C26D7B0@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:02:44 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is IBM pro-Linux? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Steve Price wrote: > > This just in, hot off one of the debian lists. :) > [snip] > I don't know about you, but I've already made my choice. > > Not IBM, not Motorola, not ANYONE shall stand in my way. I've set out to > Hmmm... Did you see the abrupt cut-off? I can just see him being hauled off and injected with a dose of something pastel blue in a hypo... Glad they're fighting hard, but anybody making payware money will resist Linux or FreeBSD once it threatens their cash cow. We'll do far better to target Compaq, who has no such commitment and who needs an OS that runs on both of their platforms. There's no s/w support costs for our stuff, either. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 22:11:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF3214F70 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:11:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-072.thuntek.net [207.66.52.72]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id XAA25515; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:10:55 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F9D327.4ACB80DE@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:09:43 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Branding.... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Actually, it's a very good concept, John. Wes Peters is our Branding co-ordinator, and he will be talking to some of our artists like Susannah Coleman to get a set of images we can all vote on. The Powers That Be have decreed that D.Mon shall definitely be central to the brand, and we are going to choose ONE image for each category by popular vote. I like the big wink for web-pages! -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 22:14:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FE214F70 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:14:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23622; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:13:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36F9D424.2397F563@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:13:56 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu, brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux References: <199903250136.SAA12426@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > >There is a market for FreeBSD native binaries. This can be stated > > >as fact, given that people buy binaries (including Linux binaries) > > >to run on FreeBSD. But how do you size this market? > > > > By getting the vendors to count it. What this has to do with a > > FreeBSD emulator in Linux is completely beyond me. > > You have to subtract out FreeBSD users using Linux binaries from > the FreeBSD native binary market size. No, you use the count of the FreeBSD users using Linux binaries to convince them it's time to support a native FreeBSD version if the numbers warrant it. I thought that was obvious. It *is* obvious to everyone on the planet but you and Brett Glass. > > >You may damn the source, but Brett's OS/2 analogy is apt. > > > > This is exactly what I disagree with; the OS/2 analogy is not apt > > regardless of the source. OS/2 died for a number of reasons, not > > the least of which was that IBM marketed it horribly and delivered > > a non-working system for the first several major releases. > > Let's divorce that little "and" as "necessary but not sufficient". > So your posit is that FreeBSD is being marketed better than OS/2 was? My posit is that FreeBSD hasn't been marketed at all yet, so we cannot yet tell if it will be successful. The differences between FreeBSD and OS/2 are so large I don't think there are any lessons to be learned there at all. FreeBSD marketing is starting to pick up the pace, but I worry about that personally. I've never needed much in the way of commercial applications, and am pretty much happy to wait for developments like GNOME and AbiWord, and support whoever I need to make sure they work well on FreeBSD as they reach maturity. OS/2 failed for it's own unique set of reasons, and I personally don't think it would have failed so spectacularly if IBM had been able to get the Win32 subsystem working EVER. They also could have simply bought their way into the vendors of choice, the way Caldera did in the Linux market. > > >I personally think that a FreeBSD emulation layer for Linux, and > > >other OS's, is important for FreeBSD, from a marketing standpoint. > > > > I personally think a FreeBSD emulation layer for Linux is a huge waste > > of time, because I strongly doubt you will get Linus to put it in the > > kernel, nor will you ever convince any of the major distributors -- > > i.e. RedHat and nobody else these days -- to put it in their distribution. > > That's rather irrelevent, even if I think you're wrong. Large portions > of the Linux kernel are distributed as kernel modules, and as the recent > Red Hat articles point out, all Red Hat cares about is units shipped. And I still doubt you'll get them to ship a FreeBSD compatibility module. I see them being interested in that about 43.7 decades after hell freezes over. > > >From a technical standpoint, Solaris and SCO are implementing Linux > > >emulation as well. The Linux ABI looks to be gaining momentum as > > >the cross-x86 UNIX ABI. This is technically very bad. > > > > And there is not a damned thing we can do about it, because this decision > > is being made by EXACTLY the sort of people who'd be running FreeBSD > > instead of Linux if they had any sense at all. Cogito ergo Doh! > > I don't understand your statement. Why would the Solaris and SCO > employees dwho made the decision to write the Linux ABI code be > running FreeBSD? Because FreeBSD is a better system than SCO, Solaris x86, or Linux. For just about anything you care to name. If they were picking the ABI on technical merit, they'd obviously pick the FreeBSD API to run on, due to the quality of the system and the entirely reasonable price. Since the decision is not being made for reasons of technical merit, any discussion of technical merit is a moot point. > > So, what do you do? Get some talented FreeBSD hackers willing to keep > > up with the shifting sands of the Linux ABI as well as possible, point > > out to people that most Linux apps run on FreeBSD too, so they're not > > risking much, and do an effective job of advocacy in getting the vendors > > to decide which side of the open source bread the butter is on. > > This limits you to a zero sum game the size of the Linux market. Geez you're being obtuse. It limits you to the size of the Linux + FreeBSD + anything else that will run the Linux ABI market. Since that seems to be the ABI of choice these days, you're attempting to play into the largest UNIX application market possible, not some half-baked crock that doesn't exist yet. There is no zero-sum game, or any other such B-school hogwash in the computer industry. The potential market for EVERY word processor ever created is exactly the number of living human beings old enough to write words on the planet, given sufficient quality, features, and marketing. Anything less than THAT is failure. Are Bill Gates and I the only two people on the planet who understand this simple concept? > > The one point you and Brett have missed the entire time: it doesn't > > matter one whit whether the app is a Linux or FreeBSD binary, as long > > as it runs reliably and solves the user's problem. > > And here's the one point that you and Jordan have missed the entire > time: > > It doesn't matter one whit TO THE USER whether the app is > a Linux or FreeBSD binary, as long as it runs reliably and > solves the user's problem. > > It doesn't matter one whit TO THE USER whether they are > running the app on a Linux or a FreeBSD system. > > But it matters a hell of a lot to FreeBSD whether the app > is a Linux or FreeBSD binary, in terms of gaining critical > mass No, it doesn't, not if they're willing to say it's a Linux *and* FreeBSD app. That's been the point of this entire argument, which you've consistently missed, so now I'll ram it down your throat: It doesn't matter one damn bit what the bits in the ELF header say, because most users cannot tell the difference between one and the other, it matters only that it runs on FreeBSD and says it runs on FreeBSD on the fucking box. Do you get it now? > And it matters a hell of a lot to FreeBSD whether the app > is running on a Linux or a FreeBSD system. And so what we're trying to do is find the highest-percentage shot at getting those applications to run reliably on FreeBSD, and to mention FreeBSD in the materials advertising the applications. Which do you think is more likely to happen: asking vendors to port their working Linux apps to some highly speculative FreeBSD emulator for Linux, or basically handing them a done deal for another 1.5 million potential users with ZERO effort required on their part, other than sticking a logo we supply them with on their web page, product box, etc? Which would YOU do? > > Getting vendors to > > *test* their apps on FreeBSD under emulation, and bug-fix THAT, is by > > far enough of a win for us. We should be concentrating on THAT effort > > rather than developing software for Linux that nobody, not a single > > Linux OR FreeBSD user, is ever going to use. > > Demonstrate success at this, and I may be willing to join your > bandwagon caliming that the number of native FreeBSD apps in the > future is irrelevent. So far, we've got ONE. They're waiting for US to deliver the required marketing materials, and I'm working on that, with assistance from several others here. Of course, so far we've asked exactly ONE, so we're hitting 100% so far. Why don't YOU go ask someone? It can't hurt, the worst they can do is say "No." They can't take away your birthday. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 22:40:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA6514C1E for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:40:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990325064056.VTTX4957949.mta1-rme@wocker>; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:40:56 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: John Baldwin Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:40:04 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Branding.... Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990325064056.VTTX4957949.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 25 Mar 99, at 1:02, John Baldwin wrote: > I'm not good enough of an artist to draw it, but I have what I think is a good > idea for the branding images. Take the "new daemon" design (such as in the > newest images on the web pages, like for news). Hey I think what you've done is great. If you have a concept, sketch it out. And let the others flesh it out. cool! -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 24 23:27:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA0515157 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:27:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA11412 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 02:26:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990325022446.00a55080@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 02:26:51 -0500 To: advocacy@freebsd.org From: Brian Adkins Subject: Letter to PC Week Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey, I was just perusing my March 22, 1999 PC Week and found a letter from Wes Peters in the letters section on page 76 - cool. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 0:24:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9AD014E78 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:24:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03908 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:24:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Every silver lining has a cloud inside... Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:24:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3906.922350264@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99mar/19990325.html Well, I can't exactly say we didn't deserve it. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 0:56: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205481521D for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:56:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990325085649.WTLX4957949.mta1-rme@wocker>; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:56:49 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:55:58 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Every silver lining has a cloud inside... Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <3906.922350264@zippy.cdrom.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990325085649.WTLX4957949.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 25 Mar 99, at 0:24, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99mar/19990325.html > > Well, I can't exactly say we didn't deserve it. :) I can claim innocence. Never haver used anything but FreeBSD and being a newbie. What are we to make of the erect tails? -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 4:33: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7615014C25 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 04:33:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 29980 invoked from network); 25 Mar 1999 12:32:44 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 12:32:44 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id HAA00287; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:32:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903251232.HAA00287@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <36F9D424.2397F563@softweyr.com> from Wes Peters at "Mar 24, 99 11:13:56 pm" To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:32:41 -0500 (EST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu, brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, advocacy@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters said: > > My posit is that FreeBSD hasn't been marketed at all yet, so we cannot ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > yet tell if it will be successful. The differences between FreeBSD > and OS/2 are so large I don't think there are any lessons to be learned > there at all. > My posit is that what little marketing that it has had, has been almost entirely incompetent. The only successes have been by luck. Hopefully, the new marketing position will give FreeBSD a chance. I was terribly emotionally let-down by those who were trying to "wing-it" outside of their level of competence. I (and others) saw that, and the credibility of FreeBSD has historically suffered because of it. (FreeBSD has succeeded only because of the support of WC Cdrom and technical excellence from technical contributors.) FreeBSD has had quality, forward looking and technology capable developers, but some of those who have *tried* to do marketing were just doing it "wierdly". Remember, Beta was better, and so was OS/2. Appealing to "quality" only works if there is proper marketing and strategic decision making. (It does *seem* that quality hasn't figured into the success formula very significantly, but I don't think that is generally true, but is true for my cited examples.) With real marketing (and not the pervious silly spurts and starts), FreeBSD will have a chance of not being pushed aside. Note that Beta and OS/2 had respectable markets (in absolute numbers), but the relative numbers were sad. The key to FreeBSD's success is for competent marketing to keep the relative numbers high enough, so that 3rd party software will be produced. (Another key, is that there will be enough visibility for it to be a "choice" for more people.) ANY notion that the userbase will keep FreeBSD alive is only circular and wishful reasoning. The userbase will become *relatively* smaller if the reason for choosing the non-default choice (FreeBSD) isn't sufficient. The growth of a userbase beyond a certain point will require more than technical competence. The choice of an adequate marketing person has been needed for a long time, and I wish the best. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 5:31:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7BA14E8F for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 05:31:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-037.thuntek.net [207.66.52.37]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id GAA18769; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:31:14 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FA3A62.4804C46A@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:30:10 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux References: <199903251232.HAA00287@y.dyson.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John, I'd value your input as I go along. You've seen the angles I intend to play up on (the "higher high road"), and I've been assured by Sources Close To The Top that the money will be there for effective advertising beyond just marshalling the troops. Please, kibitz all you like... you've earned it by being a good chunk of the technical brilliance of FreeBSD. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 5:41:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.WorldMediaCo.com (unknown [207.252.121.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07DE514BDB for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 05:41:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@omaha.com) Received: from localhost ([207.252.120.95]) by mail1.WorldMediaCo.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-55573U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:31:30 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:40:51 -0600 (CST) From: opsys@omaha.com (opsys) X-Sender: opsys@localhost To: Anton Berezin Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a call for s/w support In-Reply-To: <864sna613n.fsf@lion.plab.ku.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I don't think it's a wise decision. How the fact that your scripts > are written in Perl can harm your advocacy efforts? I can see no > difference between creating the scripts using GPLed gcc and > not-quite-as-GPLed perl! One is even able to choose between GPL and > Artistic licenses for Perl stuff. Also, nobody can hold you from > releasing your perl scripts with whatever license you like. > > Aside from that, the whole idea seems to me like a waste of time and > efforts. Perl is simply better suited for the job. As jordan pointed out when CMU lost my vote for using CODA when they switched CODA to the GPL, you have ZERO right to tell someone what license they wish to use on the code they create. And if don wants a BSD-L he should get no grief for that. It's his project and im glad hes trying to keep it all under a BSD license. Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 5:41:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from unix2.it-datacntr.louisville.edu (unix2.it-datacntr.louisville.edu [136.165.4.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F3F14BDB for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 05:41:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from k.stevenson@louisville.edu) Received: from homer.louisville.edu (ktstev01@homer.louisville.edu [136.165.1.20]) by unix2.it-datacntr.louisville.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA49646 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:41:01 -0500 Received: (from ktstev01@localhost) by homer.louisville.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16083 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:41:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990325084119.A13910@homer.louisville.edu> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:41:19 -0500 From: Keith Stevenson To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is IBM pro-Linux? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Steve Price on Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 11:45:45PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG IBM may have started making some moves towards supporting Linux at the corporate level, but the support certainly hasn't trickled down to the local level. I received the following reply to a message I sent to IBM congratulating them on supporting Linux on the Netfinity and asking them about supporting FreeBSD as well. > Please reference the note below and respond to Keith at UofL. (I thought > that Linux was brand of Golf Club). I am _still_ laughing at that line! Regards, --Keith Stevenson-- -- Keith Stevenson System Programmer - Data Center Services - University of Louisville k.stevenson@louisville.edu PGP key fingerprint = 4B 29 A8 95 A8 82 EA A2 29 CE 68 DE FC EE B6 A0 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 6:38:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B632151B2 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:38:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-037.thuntek.net [207.66.52.37]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA27035; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:37:53 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FA4A03.49892F97@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:36:51 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: opsys Cc: Anton Berezin , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a call for s/w support References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thanks, Chris, for the cheer, but I have been asked in the interests of bringing in the most volunteer coders to use Perl. The evidence is solid that I'm already getting more offers for Perl support than I was with C++, and the reality is that I need willing fingers more than technical brilliance. Since, as you say, perl apps are not GPL, this is almost as good a showcase as pure-BSD-license would be. There will be other opportunities for that DTR, and most businesses would follow the same logic that the PTB have in suggesting the use of Perl: results now. It is also important to me that we use this to start encouraging people who are not UNIX/C++ gurus to start contributing and coding. The reality is that -advocacy has been mostly talk, with the exception of e-zines and a very few efforts beyond that. This is an opportunity to encourage people to begin becoming FreeSBD developers, in a 'safe' way, without the intimidation factor of either C or the whole commit process. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 6:39:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 45D13151B2 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:39:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 12609 invoked from network); 25 Mar 1999 14:39:23 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 14:39:23 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA06896; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:39:17 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903251439.JAA06896@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <36FA3A62.4804C46A@thuntek.net> from Donald Wilde at "Mar 25, 99 06:30:10 am" To: dwilde1@thuntek.net (Donald Wilde) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:39:17 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > John, I'd value your input as I go along. You've seen the angles I > intend to play up on (the "higher high road"), and I've been assured by > Sources Close To The Top that the money will be there for effective > advertising beyond just marshalling the troops. Please, kibitz all you > like... you've earned it by being a good chunk of the technical > brilliance of FreeBSD. > Well, I am very very happy about the support that is now being given. It is very likely that future, incremental success in marketing will be done by those new people who are now taking the reigns. My laments are about the *unfortunate* past marketing mistakes. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 7: 0:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9458C1520A for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:00:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-037.thuntek.net [207.66.52.37]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA01476; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:00:14 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FA4F41.8D9FB5FF@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:59:13 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: dyson@iquest.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux References: <199903251439.JAA06896@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'll make missteps, too, John, so feel free to criticize. That goes for everybody else, too, -advocacy. If I can't stand my ground in a good flamewar, I shouldn't be here, because internet flamewars are far tamer than the big bad world of Big Business. The support is about to grow. Stay tuned! -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 7:18:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D4E85150AA for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:18:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 13768 invoked from network); 25 Mar 1999 15:17:49 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 25 Mar 1999 15:17:49 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA06977; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:17:47 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903251517.KAA06977@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <36FA4F41.8D9FB5FF@thuntek.net> from Donald Wilde at "Mar 25, 99 07:59:13 am" To: dwilde1@thuntek.net (Donald Wilde) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:17:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I'll make missteps, too, John, so feel free to criticize. > It is *easier* to criticise in hindsight. It is harder to properly plan ahead. The key to any such adventure is to understand ones own initial limitations, and not to *excessively* extend oneself. A careful strategy, with the understanding of where learning is needed is key. Some of the recent technical mistakes have been made because of people not knowing their limitations, and fear of using existing resources (probably due to ego problems.) If resources are needed, then grab them!!! FreeBSD is far beyond where cowboy behavior is acceptable, both in technical and marketing aspects. Too many people have invested alot into the product for it to be "frittered" away. The codebase is a legacy, and those who take responsibility for pieces of it should consider the control of that legacy as solemn. Hacking should be in the past, and cowboy marketing should also be taken as a learning experience. The technical base is pretty good (with bugfixes and minor restructuring initially seriously being needed.) Hacking it should require a deep understanding, with NO exceptions. The marketing position is much weaker (relative to the technical aspects), and that is a major place for FreeBSD growth. You are on the leading edge in that effort, and is an ideal place for personal growth also. > > The support is about to grow. Stay tuned! > Again, excellent. NOT ONLY do I wish you and FreeBSD the best, but have great interest and caring about it. My disappointments have been a result of experience, and understanding the history of FreeBSD and many previous projects. History continues to repeat itself, and breaking that very vicious cycle is the key to FreeBSD's expanding (rather than contracting.) Learn from previous mistakes (both other projects, and FreeBSD's own.) I strongly feel that you have a great chance of success. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 7:26:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C88614DCC for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:26:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24490; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:23:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36FA5503.669694EF@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:23:47 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Every silver lining has a cloud inside... References: <3906.922350264@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99mar/19990325.html > > Well, I can't exactly say we didn't deserve it. :) ROTFL. I'm gonna catch hell from the Linux-heads at work for this one; I've been pushing this entire series into our "open systems" mailing list since it started. Illiad may be a little more clued into the BSD scene than we would have liked. I wonder if we can get him to work Daemon News into it somehow? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 7:30:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574E915087 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:30:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA18207 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:30:20 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:30:19 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: I'm back :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm finally finished getting moved, so I'm about to resume my random bits of advocacy. :) To all those who requested a few pens, don't worry, I kept the messages and should be getting them all mailed off this weekend :) That said, if any group is interested in some FreeBSD pens or FreeBSD business cards, please email me. If they're going to be properly used, I wouldn't mind sending them to you and for user or advocacy groups, I'm more than willing to discuss sending more than 5 :) My next plan is to begin placing small adds for FreeBSD in local newspapers, etc. If anyone wants to coordinate my efforts in this area with something they are doing, please let me know... I'm always open for discussion :) I'm also working on creating templates of the FreeBSD business cards I'm using, as well as templates for generic flyers and pamphlets that anyone can download, print, and distribute. The cards will be formatted to inexpensive Avery stock you can find at almost any local office supply store, and I've even seen it places such as Walmart and Eckerds. The flyers and pamphlets will be released in color and b/w versions, designed for printing on normal 8 1/2 by 11 paper on any modern printed (you'll need ghostscript set up, the templates will be released as postscript for the greatest portability :) ) I apologize for boring anyone, just thought I'd let people know what I'm up to, so that I don't end up conflicting with other people's efforts :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 7:35:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E37B014DCC for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:35:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24522; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:35:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36FA57A8.E25AE452@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:35:04 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Donald Wilde Cc: Steve Price , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is IBM pro-Linux? References: <36F9D184.8C26D7B0@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde wrote: > > Steve Price wrote: > > > > This just in, hot off one of the debian lists. :) > > [snip] > > I don't know about you, but I've already made my choice. > > > > Not IBM, not Motorola, not ANYONE shall stand in my way. I've set out to > > > > Hmmm... Did you see the abrupt cut-off? I can just see him being hauled > off and injected with a dose of something pastel blue in a hypo... > > Glad they're fighting hard, but anybody making payware money will resist > Linux or FreeBSD once it threatens their cash cow. We'll do far better > to target Compaq, who has no such commitment and who needs an OS that > runs on both of their platforms. There's no s/w support costs for our > stuff, either. It's interesting to note that Motorola, who no longer sells a UNIX system of their own, has paid staff supporting Linux PPC on their VME and CPCI PowerPC systems, and their sales staff seems wholeheartedly in support of it. Since they don't have a cash cow to cut into, only sales of AIX which none of the technical staff really likes and the sales people get lousy commissions on, they're NOT hurting themselves by supporting Linux as well/instead. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 7:42:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE1E15423 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:42:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24549; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:42:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36FA594B.B7A5AEA4@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:42:03 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Adkins Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to PC Week References: <4.1.19990325022446.00a55080@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Adkins wrote: > > Hey, I was just perusing my March 22, 1999 PC Week and found a letter from > Wes Peters in the letters section on page 76 - cool. I hadn't read that far yet, but sure enough, there it is leading the charge. Hey, it even reads fairly well. Do you think they'll hire me to write their "Open Source" column? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 7:46: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EE5E1534E for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:46:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-037.thuntek.net [207.66.52.37]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA08838; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:45:30 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FA59DE.7C9EAA57@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:44:30 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: dyson@iquest.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Marketing FreeBSD (was:FreeBSD emulation for linux) References: <199903251517.KAA06977@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > > I'll make missteps, too, John, so feel free to criticize. > > > It is *easier* to criticise in hindsight. It is harder to properly > plan ahead. The key to any such adventure is to understand ones > own initial limitations, and not to *excessively* extend oneself. A > careful strategy, with the understanding of where learning is needed > is key. > > Some of the recent technical mistakes have been made because of people not > knowing their limitations, and fear of using existing resources (probably > due to ego problems.) If resources are needed, then grab them!!! FreeBSD > is far beyond where cowboy behavior is acceptable, both in technical and > marketing aspects. Too many people have invested alot into the product for > it to be "frittered" away. The codebase is a legacy, and those who take > responsibility for pieces of it should consider the control of that legacy > as solemn. Hacking should be in the past, and cowboy marketing should also > be taken as a learning experience. > As I said, my perspective is that the entire BSD-licensed codebase (including BSD, Apache, XFree86 and PgSQL and others) is one of the greatest gifts mankind has ever given itself, and I intend to promote it as such. IMO, it is a great benefit that I am on the "outside" of both the Project and WC-CDROM, but Bob is behind this effort with serious intent to make it fly. I do have a tendency to be a cowboy, but between flamewars here and the homebase experience in Concord, I expect to build a steady foundation for a respectable (and principled) marketing and advocacy effort. > The technical base is pretty good (with bugfixes and minor restructuring > initially seriously being needed.) Hacking it should require a deep > understanding, with NO exceptions. I think Jordan will be much more effective in ensuring this as I take more of the -advo and marketing effort over and he feels less need to personally respond to flamewars. I can't imagine the number of e-mails he personally must deal with on a daily basis! > The marketing position is much > weaker (relative to the technical aspects), and that is a major > place for FreeBSD growth. You are on the leading edge in that effort, and > is an ideal place for personal growth also. John, I intend to make this _my_ contribution to the gift. "Those who can't write kernel code, do Marketing and teach!", to modify an old saying as appropriate. I am also looking forward to the challenge and opportunity to be a proud spokesman for what we all believe in in the big bad world of Big Business. Needless to say, I'm also not unaware of the effect my personal visibility as such will have on my opportunities for growth. I spent 14 years in Hollywood attempting to crack that industry (besides coding embedded assembly language). It should stand me well as experience here. > > > > > The support is about to grow. Stay tuned! > > > Again, excellent. NOT ONLY do I wish you and FreeBSD the best, but > have great interest and caring about it. My disappointments have been > a result of experience, and understanding the history of FreeBSD and > many previous projects. History continues to repeat itself, and breaking > that very vicious cycle is the key to FreeBSD's expanding (rather than > contracting.) Learn from previous mistakes (both other projects, and > FreeBSD's own.) > Please correct me when you see me cycling through /dev/null... You will, I'm not perfect. ;-) > I strongly feel that you have a great chance of success. Thanks! I've been told the resources will grow as I learn to make effective use of them. That's a good way to start. > > John -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 8: 8:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E5014A14 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:08:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18359 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:08:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:08:16 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Preparing my own little advocacy efforts again, I stopped to wonder, is there any section on the www.freebsd.org web site, install process, etc, etc that asks someone how they heard about FreeBSD? I'd personally be interested to know how much effect things I do have. For example, I believe the pens and business cards to be effective, but once I distribute them I have no idea if people are following the urls to the web site. When I place the news paper ads, it would be nice if there were some way to track response from them if for no other reason, than to simply be able to figure out where my money is the most effective. (Should I buy more pens, or place more newspaper ads type decisions would be vastly helped.) If there aren't any sections but others are interested, I'm sure I can manage to write any needed CGI to handle the counting, if people don't mind CGI written in plain old C. :) Also I'm sorry if this question has been asked before, but are statistics available as to the traffic to www.freebsd.org? Is the traffic of a level where it could be used to induce vendors to recognize FreeBSD? (i.e. 'label your product as FreeBSD Compatible/whatever and we can give you a small banner, for x number of views?' Please no flames, I know people hate banners, but I do think it's a significant enough source of influence, especially as targeted as it is, to be of use in promoting FreeBSD.) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 8:15:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0983314F2E for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:15:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-037.thuntek.net [207.66.52.37]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id JAA13855; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:14:59 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FA60C7.4E9B839@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:13:59 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to PC Week References: <4.1.19990325022446.00a55080@mailbox.iwaynet.net> <36FA594B.B7A5AEA4@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oh, go for it, Wes! If you've got the time (!), PC Week is very visible marketing exposure for us, and you will do well there for us by making undeniable points and staying above the flamewars. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 8:51:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2824414DDC for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:51:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-037.thuntek.net [207.66.52.37]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id JAA20015; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:50:55 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FA6934.8F97D4A1@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:49:56 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Licia Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Licia wrote: > > Preparing my own little advocacy efforts again, I stopped to wonder, is > there any section on the www.freebsd.org web site, install process, etc, etc > that asks someone how they heard about FreeBSD? > There will definitely be such on the web site. I have a problem with the install process registration as it stands (IMHO), because most of the time I'm installing, the systems are not direct-wired to the net. Perhaps we can improve that (and include your suggestion) to include a little cron job that checks to see if we're online and then sends the registration stats. That's better than a direct mailer, because we don't want newbies getting nasty mesages for 5 days from sendmail. :-) > I'd personally be interested to know how much effect things I do have. > For example, I believe the pens and business cards to be effective, but once > I distribute them I have no idea if people are following the urls to the web > site. When I place the news paper ads, it would be nice if there were some > way to track response from them if for no other reason, than to simply be able > to figure out where my money is the most effective. (Should I buy more pens, > or place more newspaper ads type decisions would be vastly helped.) > I want to put a pretty Webalyzer graphic page on the site, or something similar. > If there aren't any sections but others are interested, I'm sure I can > manage to write any needed CGI to handle the counting, if people don't mind > CGI written in plain old C. :) > Offer accepted. My personal preference is C++, but the Powers That Be have made a very sensible suggestion that most of our volunteers will want to code in Perl, and it's obvious they are right by the increase in support since I announced that fact. :-) I don't see the problem with a mixture, especially for sub-projects that are distinct in themselves. Since I just started last weekend, it will take a while to get a handle on how to structure the website development effort. I'm pushing for a separate ../advocacy machine, so we can work without stomping either Christopher Mann's or Wolfram Schneider's toes. Your inputs are highly valued, inasmuch as a) they're pertinent and sensible and b) you have a history of following through. ;-D > Also I'm sorry if this question has been asked before, but are statistics > available as to the traffic to www.freebsd.org? Is the traffic of a level Ask Wolfram Schneider, wm of FreeBSD.org. (wosch@freebsd.org) As I said before, I'd like to see it visible and colorful. > where it could be used to induce vendors to recognize FreeBSD? (i.e. 'label > your product as FreeBSD Compatible/whatever and we can give you a small > banner, for x number of views?' Please no flames, I know people hate banners, > but I do think it's a significant enough source of influence, especially as > targeted as it is, to be of use in promoting FreeBSD.) > We're going to do a LOT more on the branding issue, including more visibility for our commercial supporters. We're not ashamed that FreeBSD can be used to make money and we'll all benefit, although homepage banners probably won't fly. More likely clickthrough logos on the revamped gallery section. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 8:58:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B2B14DBC for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:58:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27978; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:57:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:57:07 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Donald Wilde Cc: Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-Reply-To: <36FA6934.8F97D4A1@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: One quick comment: > I want to put a pretty Webalyzer graphic page on the site, or something > similar. There is one (it's Urchin, not Webalyzer created but...) http://www.freebsd.org/statistic/urchin/ Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 9:34:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33F4A14BDB for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:34:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18653; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:34:05 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:34:04 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Donald Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-Reply-To: <36FA6934.8F97D4A1@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > Licia wrote: > > > > Preparing my own little advocacy efforts again, I stopped to wonder, is > > there any section on the www.freebsd.org web site, install process, etc, etc > > that asks someone how they heard about FreeBSD? > > > There will definitely be such on the web site. I have a problem with the > install process registration as it stands (IMHO), because most of the > time I'm installing, the systems are not direct-wired to the net. > Perhaps we can improve that (and include your suggestion) to include a > little cron job that checks to see if we're online and then sends the > registration stats. That's better than a direct mailer, because we don't > want newbies getting nasty mesages for 5 days from sendmail. :-) > The install process registration has made me wonder too. Would it be possible perhaps to offer a "print this out and mail it in" registration for people without usable internet connections? I would also like to see options as far as people registering how many cpu's they have it installed on, what versions, etc... I don't think this code would be too hard to add if people were amenable. The hard part would be deciding what information to request :) > > I'd personally be interested to know how much effect things I do have. > > For example, I believe the pens and business cards to be effective, but once > > I distribute them I have no idea if people are following the urls to the web > > site. When I place the news paper ads, it would be nice if there were some > > way to track response from them if for no other reason, than to simply be able > > to figure out where my money is the most effective. (Should I buy more pens, > > or place more newspaper ads type decisions would be vastly helped.) > > > I want to put a pretty Webalyzer graphic page on the site, or something > similar. > > > If there aren't any sections but others are interested, I'm sure I can > > manage to write any needed CGI to handle the counting, if people don't mind > > CGI written in plain old C. :) > > > Offer accepted. My personal preference is C++, but the Powers That Be > have made a very sensible suggestion that most of our volunteers will > want to code in Perl, and it's obvious they are right by the increase in > support since I announced that fact. :-) I don't see the problem with a > mixture, especially for sub-projects that are distinct in themselves. > (chuckles) Well, I don't really care for perl or C++ personally, but I am fairly familiar with C, and more than happy to do what I can in that area, if there are specific tasks that need done :) > Since I just started last weekend, it will take a while to get a handle > on how to structure the website development effort. I'm pushing for a > separate ../advocacy machine, so we can work without stomping either > Christopher Mann's or Wolfram Schneider's toes. Your inputs are highly > valued, inasmuch as a) they're pertinent and sensible and b) you have a > history of following through. ;-D > I think a separate machine is a good idea, really although I would suggest working with them to keep all the sites as uniform and clean as possible. Just my own bizzare preferences I suppose, but I always think a uniform layout to a group of web sites seems more... professional... (chuckles) I know a lot of people who would argue with point A, and as for point B, well I can say without a doubt, it's just more -fun- to do something than to just talk about it :) > > Also I'm sorry if this question has been asked before, but are statistics > > available as to the traffic to www.freebsd.org? Is the traffic of a level > > Ask Wolfram Schneider, wm of FreeBSD.org. (wosch@freebsd.org) As I said > before, I'd like to see it visible and colorful. > (nods) good idea, he probably knows ;) I'd like to see it be used as a tool some how... if not in the form of small banners, then perhaps as a way of getting some firmer idea of actual 'active user' numbers? > > where it could be used to induce vendors to recognize FreeBSD? (i.e. 'label > > your product as FreeBSD Compatible/whatever and we can give you a small > > banner, for x number of views?' Please no flames, I know people hate banners, > > but I do think it's a significant enough source of influence, especially as > > targeted as it is, to be of use in promoting FreeBSD.) > > > We're going to do a LOT more on the branding issue, including more > visibility for our commercial supporters. We're not ashamed that FreeBSD > can be used to make money and we'll all benefit, although homepage > banners probably won't fly. More likely clickthrough logos on the > revamped gallery section. > The lameness of my graphical ideas aside, I do think this is a good idea. When I begin getting software released publically that's worth of it, I will make sure to brand the heck out of it. :) I think it's a GREAT thing that FreeBSD can be used to make money, to bring life to old equipment, to teach people skills that can get them good paying jobs... (getting ideas for a couple of articles) Any idea where to do research on third world countries? I'd love to investigate ways FreeBSD could use their older equipment to bring them a bit more into the online world and economy :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 11: 5:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39D21544D for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:05:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18939; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:04:30 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:04:29 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Brett Taylor Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > > One quick comment: > > > I want to put a pretty Webalyzer graphic page on the site, or something > > similar. > > There is one (it's Urchin, not Webalyzer created but...) > > http://www.freebsd.org/statistic/urchin/ > Those are some pretty incredible numbers! There really must be some way this information can be used to FreeBSD's advantage... [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 11:10:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8846A14ED3 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:10:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990325191104.ZTMM4957949.mta1-rme@wocker>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:11:04 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Licia Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:10:27 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990325191104.ZTMM4957949.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 25 Mar 99, at 10:08, Licia wrote: > > Preparing my own little advocacy efforts again, I stopped to wonder, is > there any section on the www.freebsd.org web site, install process, etc, etc > that asks someone how they heard about FreeBSD? During the install, the user is asked if they wish to register the install. Data collected includes name, address, etc. That would be a good place to ask that question. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 11:22: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DAF614D1D for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:22:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id OAA16680; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xmafa4683; Thu, 25 Mar 99 14:20:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:12:46 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-reply-to: To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG More telling is the biggest referrer: yahoo.com, in their info/misc/contributors.html link to freebsd.org. Imagine what we'd get if we could get them to move a logo to their main page! SB On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Licia wrote: > > Those are some pretty incredible numbers! There really must be some way this > information can be used to FreeBSD's advantage... > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 11:28:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5AC214E04 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:28:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA19077; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:27:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:27:42 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Zippy Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Zippy wrote: > > More telling is the biggest referrer: yahoo.com, in their > info/misc/contributors.html link to freebsd.org. Imagine what we'd get if > we could get them to move a logo to their main page! > > SB > > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, > Licia wrote: > > > > > Those are some pretty incredible numbers! There really must be some way this > > information can be used to FreeBSD's advantage... > > > Perhaps they'd consider some sort of "micro banner" exchange? www.freebsd.org gets enough traffic to make any such offer something any business would likely take pretty seriously... [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 11:45:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A2A14E37 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:45:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from think (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA08771 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:44:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990325143714.00a08f00@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:45:08 -0500 To: advocacy@freebsd.org From: Brian Adkins Subject: Shrink Wrap Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I got my FreeBSD via buying "The Complete FreeBSD" book, so I don't know about other distributions eg. Walnut Creek etc. Do we have a shrink wrapped box similar to Red Hat Linux that could be sold through computer stores? If not, and a company wanted to provide that, could they do it? In other words, have the boxes printed, burn CD's from a particular release of FreeBSD and distribute it. Could they put XYZ FreeBSD on the box or is that a really bad idea (I'm not suggesting different distributions, just labelling)? Would Greg provide a slimmer version of his book that could fit in a standard box? Maybe Walnut Creek's distro is what I'm looking for, but I haven't seen it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 11:51:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8BD14EEB for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:51:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990325195224.ZEIU5117602.mta2-rme@wocker>; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:52:24 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Licia Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:51:19 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990325195224.ZEIU5117602.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 25 Mar 99, at 13:04, Licia wrote: > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > > > > One quick comment: > > > > > I want to put a pretty Webalyzer graphic page on the site, or something > > > similar. > > > > There is one (it's Urchin, not Webalyzer created but...) > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/statistic/urchin/ > > > > Those are some pretty incredible numbers! There really must be some way this > information can be used to FreeBSD's advantage... Oooo! Doing some quick calcs, my sites are sending 800 requests to the main site. Thanks for the ref. Mind you, that's not surprising as I refer to the website on just about every page I have. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 12:19:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4887014EEA for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:19:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19286; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:18:52 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:18:51 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Dan Langille Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-Reply-To: <19990325195224.ZEIU5117602.mta2-rme@wocker> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Dan Langille wrote: > On 25 Mar 99, at 13:04, Licia wrote: > > > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > > > > > > One quick comment: > > > > > > > I want to put a pretty Webalyzer graphic page on the site, or something > > > > similar. > > > > > > There is one (it's Urchin, not Webalyzer created but...) > > > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/statistic/urchin/ > > > > > > > Those are some pretty incredible numbers! There really must be some way this > > information can be used to FreeBSD's advantage... > > Oooo! Doing some quick calcs, my sites are sending 800 requests to the > main site. Thanks for the ref. Mind you, that's not surprising as I > refer to the website on just about every page I have. > (grins) don't thank me, thank Brett Taylor :) pretty fantastic numbers, aren't they? :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 12:42: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974D715481 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:41:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-038.thuntek.net [207.66.52.38]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id NAA04383; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:41:28 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FA9F42.352B295A@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:40:34 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Adkins Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shrink Wrap References: <4.1.19990325143714.00a08f00@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Shrink Wrap is in development, as is a new version of Greg's work (although I'm not sure what form it will take). That's part of the effort to get FBSD into more stores. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 13:39:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 828FB14D21 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:39:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10QHqR-0002dj-0K; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:39:20 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id VAA04294; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:38:34 GMT Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id VAA00392; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:35:08 GMT (envelope-from marko) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:35:08 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI' Message-ID: <19990325213508.B259@marder-1.localhost> References: <199903241019.LAA03626@rt2.synx.com> <36F8FB3B.96F7E718@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <36F8FB3B.96F7E718@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 07:48:27AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 07:48:27AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Remy Nonnenmacher wrote: > > > > FYI > > > > http://www.lmi.fr/c12565ef002d29ae/996ef68a9fd10db3c125669e00311b6a/d1e004841bd6acf0c125673800518e6a?OpenDocument > > > > For English readers: Summary: > > A nice article. Non French readers can get a somewhat stilted > translation from Babelfish. Browse http://babelfish.altavista.com/ > paste the above URL into the box, select French to English translation, > and fire. > I tried that Wes and it produced a very readable result. The translation included a couple of sentences that really made me chuckle though.... "Even Microsoft prefers it with Windows NT to manage its service of Hotmail electronic mail, which counts several million subscribers" "Most powerful and most stable. And it is not the opinion of the only bearded and hairy system administrators swearing only by the Unix free" -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 14:37:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0D6514A23 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:37:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Dave@Yost.com) Received: from [205.219.69.138] (205-219-69-138.bayarea.net [205.219.69.138]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08744 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:37:05 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: dayost@mail.bayarea.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990325022446.00a55080@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:36:52 -0800 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Dave Yost Subject: Re: Letter to PC Week: Here's the URL Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 2:26 AM -0500 1999-03-25, Brian Adkins wrote: > Hey, I was just perusing my March 22, 1999 PC Week and found a letter from > Wes Peters in the letters section on page 76 - cool. http://www.zdnet.com/products/stories/reviews/0,4161,388787,00.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 15:36:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A16A15016 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:36:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA19808; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:36:26 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:36:26 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: Dave Yost Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to PC Week: Here's the URL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don't see a letter from Wes in there. It is the letters section though. On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Dave Yost wrote: # At 2:26 AM -0500 1999-03-25, Brian Adkins wrote: # > Hey, I was just perusing my March 22, 1999 PC Week and found a letter from # > Wes Peters in the letters section on page 76 - cool. # # http://www.zdnet.com/products/stories/reviews/0,4161,388787,00.html # # # To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org # with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message # To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 16:16:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ACCC154D8 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:16:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06505; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:15:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Licia Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:34:04 CST." Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:15:36 -0800 Message-ID: <6503.922407336@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The install process registration has made me wonder too. Would it be possibl e > perhaps to offer a "print this out and mail it in" registration for people The registration process everyone is currently seeing now really need to be ripped out and replaced. Why? Several reasons. One, as you've noted, there's no way to do the registration when you haven't got email set up yet; a good percentage of the registrations we get are actually bounced back by freebsd.org's spam filter, which doesn't deal with sites without proper DNS. When you've set the machine up before the DNS entry, as many do, that's clearly not going to work. Secondly there's the fact that email, even though clearly imperfect, is the only way to go. We don't deal well with web site registration (at least not in a way which weeds/prevents duplicates or allows someone to change their existing entries) and we don't allow people to postal mail their stuff in to some counter person. The idea of having people register at installation time is a good one, don't get me wrong, but my initial "proof of concept implementation" there is clearly showing many cracks now. Who'd like to take over registration at this stage? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 16:20:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDEF14CD5 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:20:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA09843 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:20:12 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:20:12 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Apple to back Linux with dedicated manager Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Would be nice if Apple would do the same for FreeBSD, since from what I gather much of their code is BSD-based. http://www.theregister.co.uk/990325-000020.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 16:27:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187A814C47 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:27:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA29438; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:27:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990325172655.00a26e80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:27:14 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: unsubscribe advocacy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG unsubscribe advocacy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 16:48:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B5914F81 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:48:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id QAA16496; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id QAA27935; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:45:55 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id RAA18107; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:45:50 -0700 Message-ID: <36FAD8AE.7008CE38@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:45:34 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Donald Wilde Cc: Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: <36FA6934.8F97D4A1@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde wrote: > > Licia wrote: > > > > where it could be used to induce vendors to recognize FreeBSD? (i.e. 'label > > your product as FreeBSD Compatible/whatever and we can give you a small > > banner, for x number of views?' Please no flames, I know people hate banners, Licia, flames only mean that you're making people think. ;^) I don't hate banners as long as they download in a reasonably small time. This might actually come true, now that USWest and TCI are racing to see who gets to my house first, with DSL or Cable Modem support... > > but I do think it's a significant enough source of influence, especially as > > targeted as it is, to be of use in promoting FreeBSD.) > > > We're going to do a LOT more on the branding issue, including more > visibility for our commercial supporters. We're not ashamed that FreeBSD > can be used to make money and we'll all benefit, although homepage > banners probably won't fly. More likely clickthrough logos on the > revamped gallery section. We had originally discussed an entire web section for branded products, with click-through to their site(s), to cross-advertise the availability of FreeBSD branded products. We would offer this page as a target for their products sites as well. I imagine FreeBSD Mall will be very interested in carrying commercial products that are FreeBSD branded as well, if suitable financial arrangements can be agreed upon. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 16:50:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF81815445 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:50:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20167; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:49:28 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:49:27 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-Reply-To: <6503.922407336@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > The install process registration has made me wonder too. Would it be possibl > e > > perhaps to offer a "print this out and mail it in" registration for people > > The registration process everyone is currently seeing now really need > to be ripped out and replaced. Why? Several reasons. > > One, as you've noted, there's no way to do the registration when you > haven't got email set up yet; a good percentage of the registrations > we get are actually bounced back by freebsd.org's spam filter, which > doesn't deal with sites without proper DNS. When you've set the > machine up before the DNS entry, as many do, that's clearly not going > to work. > > Secondly there's the fact that email, even though clearly imperfect, > is the only way to go. We don't deal well with web site registration > (at least not in a way which weeds/prevents duplicates or allows > someone to change their existing entries) and we don't allow people to > postal mail their stuff in to some counter person. > > The idea of having people register at installation time is a good one, > don't get me wrong, but my initial "proof of concept implementation" > there is clearly showing many cracks now. Who'd like to take over > registration at this stage? > > - Jordan > Would you be interested in the possibility of a standalone TCP registration server? A simple protocol could be used to create/edit/delete registrations. With a simple whois style 'handle' system and basic authentication it would be possible to allowe users to maintain their own entries in the system, with virtually no added effort from staff or such. I'd personally also like to see the possibility of users snail mailing in their registrations, if they simply have no way of getting online to do it as well. If you're interested I can probably get a basic demonstration server written over the weekend and at least one demonstration client, I imagine. I'd like to also write a command line tool that would allow users to edit their registrations (allowing for multiple cpu's installed per person, with as much information as they care to give for possible demographics use) with the ease of something like chpass. I could also probably provide clients that would work from within sysinstall, and some simple way for snailmail to be handled as well though that would take longer than a single weekend :). [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 16:53:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C42315550 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:53:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id QAA16349; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:53:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19990325165311.A15810@best.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:53:11 -0800 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: unsubscribe advocacy References: <4.2.0.32.19990325172655.00a26e80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990325172655.00a26e80@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Mar 25, 1999 at 05:27:14PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 25, 1999 at 05:27:14PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > unsubscribe advocacy > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message Was it something we said? -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 18: 9:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from knfpub.com (knfpub.com [192.41.28.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D4F14FAF for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:09:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjag@knfpub.com) Received: from fuzzy.au.eggdrop.net (fuzzy.au.eggdrop.net [203.38.198.131]) by knfpub.com (8.8.5) id TAA04802; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:08:57 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:39:06 +1030 (CST) Reply-To: cjag@knfpub.com From: cjag@knfpub.com To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: APC magazine - Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Australian Personal Computer" (APC mag), April 1999. The forum section of the above mag (pp53) included an editorial note that they will be conducting a comparison of the major operating systems to be published in their July edition. APC mag is Oz's leading PC magazine and has in recent times been giving more and more space to Open Source material, and becoming critical of all things Redmond. The only unfortunate thing is that they are often guilty of assuming that OpenSource = Linux, and frequently insert "Linux" when they mean "Unix". Their favorite linux dist. is RedHat, need I say more... I see this as a great opportunity to "correct" this, and at the same time ensure that FreeBSD is included in the OS comparison. The comment in the Ed note was "It's not going to be easy to properly compare OSes, but we're going to have a crack at it." Perhaps some suggestions as to how/what to compare with regard to FreeBSD might also be appreciated. So, if someone here with far greater knowledge than I possess would care to contact APC and make a case, the contact details are as follows: Email: APC@acp.com.au <== host is acp, not apc.... WWW: http://www.apcmag.com/ Snail: PO Box 37, Sydney 1028 Cheers, Christine Jaeger ---------------------------------- E-Mail: cjag@knfpub.com Date: 26-Mar-99 Time: 11:23:07 http://www.knfpub.com/ ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 18:34:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E494F1560D for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:34:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06209; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:36:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd006161; Thu Mar 25 20:36:38 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01443; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:34:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903260234.TAA01443@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:34:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu, brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <36F9D424.2397F563@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Mar 24, 99 11:13:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > By getting the vendors to count it. What this has to do with a > > > FreeBSD emulator in Linux is completely beyond me. > > > > You have to subtract out FreeBSD users using Linux binaries from > > the FreeBSD native binary market size. > > No, you use the count of the FreeBSD users using Linux binaries to > convince them it's time to support a native FreeBSD version if the > numbers warrant it. I thought that was obvious. It *is* obvious > to everyone on the planet but you and Brett Glass. As someone who has been in that position, you're not convincing me. Century Software developed Xenix releases on Altos hardware specifically because the resulting binaries would run on SCO Xenix, Altos Xenix, Intel Xenix, and Cubix System V. The SKU was "IA" for "Intel, Altos". If I'm a software vendor, I'm going to minimize the number of SKU's I have to deal with. Period. If nothing else, I can leverage the unit production back and forth over a number of target platforms without having to nail the unit numbers I expect on a specific platform. At best, I cut my porting overhead and reduce my development (and validation) costs. The best that you are ever going to get out of a software vendor is them eating the validation overhead on your platform and (assuming validation actually passes with no work on the part of the vendor aside from running the tests), "also-runs-on" branding on a sticker on the outside of the shrink-wrap. If I were in that position, that's the most you're going to get out of me -- and I'm a FreeBSD advocate. > > > This is exactly what I disagree with; the OS/2 analogy is not apt > > > regardless of the source. OS/2 died for a number of reasons, not > > > the least of which was that IBM marketed it horribly and delivered > > > a non-working system for the first several major releases. > > > > Let's divorce that little "and" as "necessary but not sufficient". > > So your posit is that FreeBSD is being marketed better than OS/2 was? > > My posit is that FreeBSD hasn't been marketed at all yet, so we cannot > yet tell if it will be successful. The differences between FreeBSD > and OS/2 are so large I don't think there are any lessons to be learned > there at all. There are always lessons to be learned. One lesson that should be foremost when we're talking about FreeBSD running Linux binaries is that unless they run without having to be pounded on, then defacto, FreeBSD is delivering "a non-working system". Just as OS/2 was delivered. I disagree with you about whether FreeBSD has been marketed or not, as well. Jordan is implicitly marketing FreeBSD as "something to run your Linux binaries". He's reinforcing this message from a number of angles. This may not be exactly what he's saying, but it's what at least some of us are hearing -- and again, we're FreeBSD advocates. How much worse must the message be for non-advocates, or for people who are hearing about FreeBSD for the first time during Jordan's speech about "if you are a software vendor, port to Linux". The message isn't focussed solely on software vendors; it's given at places like the O'Reilly Open Source Forum... it's given in front of press people. > FreeBSD marketing is starting to pick up the pace, but I worry about > that personally. I've never needed much in the way of commercial > applications, and am pretty much happy to wait for developments like > GNOME and AbiWord, and support whoever I need to make sure they work > well on FreeBSD as they reach maturity. I definitely worry about FreeBSD marketing. But so long as there is going to be a FreeBSD presence, then it might as well have the most positive possible spin on it. If Jordan is going to show up and tell software vendors to port to Linux (yes, I realize he qualifies this as "software vendors entering the UNIX market"; software vendors, however, don't hear that part), then someone needs to spin it properly. One way to do this would be to replace "Linux" with "FreeBSD" in the statements Jordan makes; but to do that, FreeBSD binaries would have to make the same promise that Jordan is making on behalf of Linux binaries: "port on X, run on X and Y". > > > I personally think a FreeBSD emulation layer for Linux is a huge waste > > > of time, because I strongly doubt you will get Linus to put it in the > > > kernel, nor will you ever convince any of the major distributors -- > > > i.e. RedHat and nobody else these days -- to put it in their distribution. [ ... ] > And I still doubt you'll get them to ship a FreeBSD compatibility module. > I see them being interested in that about 43.7 decades after hell freezes > over. Well, you now have a wonderful opportunity for an "I told you so", predicated upon someone providing a FreeBSD compatability module for Linux. Regardless, it's irrelevent what *ships*, it only matters what's *available* so that the story you tell is true. > > I don't understand your statement. Why would the Solaris and SCO > > employees dwho made the decision to write the Linux ABI code be > > running FreeBSD? > > Because FreeBSD is a better system than SCO, Solaris x86, or Linux. For > just about anything you care to name. If they were picking the ABI on > technical merit, they'd obviously pick the FreeBSD API to run on, due > to the quality of the system and the entirely reasonable price. Since > the decision is not being made for reasons of technical merit, any > discussion of technical merit is a moot point. I disagree. Solaris (and UnixWare) have a number of technical points on which they still far outstrip FreeBSD. You're forgiven for your advocacy, though; everyone has their religion. > > > So, what do you do? Get some talented FreeBSD hackers willing to keep > > > up with the shifting sands of the Linux ABI as well as possible, point > > > out to people that most Linux apps run on FreeBSD too, so they're not > > > risking much, and do an effective job of advocacy in getting the vendors > > > to decide which side of the open source bread the butter is on. > > > > This limits you to a zero sum game the size of the Linux market. > > Geez you're being obtuse. It limits you to the size of the Linux + > FreeBSD + anything else that will run the Linux ABI market. Since that > seems to be the ABI of choice these days, you're attempting to play into > the largest UNIX application market possible, not some half-baked crock > that doesn't exist yet. It limits *you* (FreeBSD), not "you the software vendor". > > But it matters a hell of a lot to FreeBSD whether the app > > is a Linux or FreeBSD binary, in terms of gaining critical > > mass > > No, it doesn't, not if they're willing to say it's a Linux *and* > FreeBSD app. That's been the point of this entire argument, which > you've consistently missed, so now I'll ram it down your throat: > It doesn't matter one damn bit what the bits in the ELF header say, > because most users cannot tell the difference between one and the > other, it matters only that it runs on FreeBSD and says it runs on > FreeBSD on the fucking box. > > Do you get it now? I understand. Now you are chasing the Linux ABI problem, which was my point: the Linux ABI is fluid enough that you will have a hard time saying that about two different Linux ditributions, let alone about a FreeBSD implementing the ABI from a particular Linux distribution. The problem is as hard as tracking Win32 unde OS/2. Look at how long Linux threaded applications failed to run on FreeBSD. > > And it matters a hell of a lot to FreeBSD whether the app > > is running on a Linux or a FreeBSD system. > > And so what we're trying to do is find the highest-percentage shot at > getting those applications to run reliably on FreeBSD, and to mention > FreeBSD in the materials advertising the applications. OK. You pursue that goal. Brett and I will pursue getting FreeBSD native binaries, as a seperate goal. > Which do you think is more likely to happen: asking vendors to port > their working Linux apps to some highly speculative FreeBSD emulator > for Linux, or basically handing them a done deal for another 1.5 > million potential users with ZERO effort required on their part, other > than sticking a logo we supply them with on their web page, product > box, etc? Which would YOU do? I've told you what I, as a vendor, would do (*did*, in fact), above. > So far, we've got ONE. They're waiting for US to deliver the required > marketing materials, and I'm working on that, with assistance from > several others here. Of course, so far we've asked exactly ONE, so > we're hitting 100% so far. > > Why don't YOU go ask someone? It can't hurt, the worst they can do is > say "No." They can't take away your birthday. I mostly don't ask because I'm not really that interested in a future where Linux Torvalds controls the ABI for commercial applications for my platform of choice. I don't think he takes a sufficiently long view of things, architecturally (I frankly have a hard enough time with some of the short term thinking that's happened in FreeBSD). I'd rather pursue a destiny where bad (=shortsighted) architecture isn't a fait accompli. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 18:41:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B4515525 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:41:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19356; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:41:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd019333; Thu Mar 25 19:40:55 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01675; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:40:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903260240.TAA01675@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Every silver lining has a cloud inside... To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:40:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36FA5503.669694EF@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Mar 25, 99 08:23:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99mar/19990325.html > > > > Well, I can't exactly say we didn't deserve it. :) > > ROTFL. I'm gonna catch hell from the Linux-heads at work for this > one; I've been pushing this entire series into our "open systems" > mailing list since it started. > > Illiad may be a little more clued into the BSD scene than we would > have liked. I wonder if we can get him to work Daemon News into > it somehow? ;^) Interview him for the Daemon News, maybe you'll see another daemon with a hat with a "Press" card in the band. At worst, the hat would hide the "offensive" horns... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 18:53:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1F3D14BE6 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:53:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tim@futuresouth.com) Received: (from tim@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA09749 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:52:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:52:59 -0600 From: Tim Tsai To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: funny Message-ID: <19990325205258.A9342@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matt is our sys admin and we're a 99.9% FreeBSD shop. Our office manager just sent him this. :-) > A bored mind does strange things. > > http://www.futuresouth.com/mjf/bsdvslinux.jpg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 20:45:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2494314CC2 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:45:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA01568; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:44:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990325203830.00a2b440@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:43:54 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Swan song In-Reply-To: <85720.922223339@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Everyone: After pondering, silently, what to do about the attitudes I've seen expressed on this list, I've decided that I'd best save my time, bandwidth, and effort by resigning from it. Ironically, my first attempt to resign (which failed because it somehow went to the list instead of the listserv) brought several responses prompting me not to do so. They almost changed my mind.... UNTIL I read the following from Jordan Hubbard, the FreeBSD project's nominal "leader:" >Frankly, I don't see any benefits these days which outweigh >the disadvantages of multiple-day flamewars on -advocacy. You're >clearly on the debit side of the ledger and if you now propose to get >out before you get any further into the red, I can't argue with the >wisdom of that. Happy trails, dude! :) Spoken like a true leader. Oh, and this same "leader" is steering developers away from the FreeBSD platform by telling them to "do Linux first" -- and, effectively, FreeBSD never. Nor have others been more encouraging. My attempts to lay out tactics and strategies for FreeBSD advocacy have met with scorn, derision, and personal attacks. This is the one sure way to kill any enthusiasm that a potential contributor might have. And -- congratulations, guys -- you've done it. As for the specific project I most recently proposed: I still firmly believe that making other platforms emulate FreeBSD -- NOT the other way around -- is the only tactic which can save FreeBSD from being smothered by Linux. If FreeBSD does not establish itself as the ABI and API of choice, it will die -- its best code co-opted and released under the GPL as part of Linux, the rest discarded due to an insufficient user base to keep up with Linux's progress. To see this, one must only look at history. As I've mentioned earlier, OS/2, like FreeBSD, was technically superior to the more popular Windows, but lost all vendor support because it emulated a product with the larger installed base. (Yes, there were other reasons; however, this was THE nail in the coffin.) OS/2 couldn't track Windows forever (just as FreeBSD's Linux emulation may not always be able to track Linux), and application vendors saw no reason to add a new SKU it when they could write only for Windows. Without applications, a platform dies -- and so it was with OS/2. Now, let's contrast this with Java. Java doesn't emulate anything else; rather, the Java Virtual Machine makes other platforms run Java binaries and emulate the Java API and ABI. As a result of this, it is succeeding despite the fact that it is awkward, clunky, and slow to load. AND despite the fact that it has been badly marketed. AND despite the fact that it has borne the full force of Microsoft's endless PR dollars, which have been spent liberally on a campaign to defame, fragment, and marginalize it. (Just the hiring of J++ architect Anders Hejlsberg from Borland cost Microsoft a 7 figure sum, according to reports from his former co-workers.) AND despite the fact that Java has to add security to platforms that don't have it. AND despite the fact that Java started with an installed base of zero long after Windows was dominant. AND despite the fact that developers had to learn an entire new language, application framework, and class hierarchy in order to use it. AND despite the fact that many key parts of the application framework were late or missing. AND despite the fact that Java to this day isn't really "write once, run anywhere" unless you're very good and very, VERY careful. FreeBSD emulation for Linux (and, for that matter, other UNIX-like OSes and even NT) would not have anywhere near this many hurdles to overcome. It would encourage the development of hundreds -- even thousands -- of native applications and become a stabilizing force in the raucous UNIX world. And developers could do what they could not do with Linux: Use the time-tested code of the utilities as the foundation of their own applications. We must therefore ask ourselves : Is FreeBSD to be an OS/2 or a Java? I was interested, strongly, in trying to make it the latter. But since at least some people on this list seem not to be able to learn from the past nor to develop a version from the future, it will likely be fruitless to try. Now, I'll readily stand up to flames from all sides when advocating a product (and believe me, I've had asbestos underwear handy ever since I first used Usenet more than 15 years ago). But when you encounter total negativism from the person or persons, you are trying to do doing advocacy FOR, it's time to leave. So, farewell. I'm sure you'll manage to run FreeBSD into the ground without me. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 20:53:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B97614CC2 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:53:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA01622; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:53:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990325214924.00cfef00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:53:00 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Swan song: Corrections Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In my previous message: > ...But since > at least some people on this list seem not to be able to learn from the > past nor to develop a version from the future, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ should be "a vision for". > But when you encounter > total negativism from the person or persons, you are trying to do ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > doing advocacy FOR, it's time to leave. ^^^^^ should be "persons you are trying to do advocacy FOR".... --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 21:22:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072A614C3F for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:22:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA14402; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:21:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990325235434.00a39f10@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:21:59 -0500 To: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: Swan song In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990325203830.00a2b440@localhost> References: <85720.922223339@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:43 PM 3/25/99 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: Well you certainly know how to get my attention Brett, just mention Java. I have a few comments below, but before that, I have to say that even though I'm still doubtful that the existence of a FreeBSD emulator on Linux would accomplish what I think we all want to accomplish, I must confess that when I read Jordan's statement for the very first time (prior to even installing/using FreeBSD) encouraging ISV's to write to Linux, I was very surprised. As someone evaluating the OS, it struck me as an odd thing to say. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing for ISV's to do, but I think many individuals, or companies, might interpret that statement as an endorsement of Linux over FreeBSD (that was my *first* impression). Promoting the fact that we can run Linux binaries may be perceived as a strength of the OS; whereas, encouraging ISV's to write to Linux may be perceived in a negative way. Yes, companies will probably draw that conclusion anyway given the numbers, but that's different than the FreeBSD community encouraging writing to Linux. Sometimes the subtle things are important. I'm not really commenting on the emulation issue because that's been beat into the ground, but I am saying that perception is very important and we need to think carefully about the image we want to promote. >... >Now, let's contrast this with Java. Java doesn't emulate anything else; >rather, the Java Virtual Machine makes other platforms run Java binaries >and emulate the Java API and ABI. As a result of this, it is succeeding >despite the fact that it is awkward, clunky, and slow to load. Have you actually written any significant Java code? Your last sentence would indicate not. I think many Java developers would attest to the elegance of the language compared to C/C++. >AND despite >the fact that it has been badly marketed. If by badly marketed, you mean over-hyped, then maybe, but otherwise there has been a significant and successful Java marketing campaign Sun, IBM and others. When my computer illiterate father asks me if I'm using "this new Java language" in my products because he saw something on CNN and "it's the wave of the future", it tells me that Java has been effectively marketed (maybe too well). >AND despite the fact that it has >borne the full force of Microsoft's endless PR dollars, which have been >spent liberally on a campaign to defame, fragment, and marginalize it. >(Just the hiring of J++ architect Anders Hejlsberg from Borland cost >Microsoft a 7 figure sum, according to reports from his former co-workers.) >AND despite the fact that Java has to add security to platforms that don't >have it. AND despite the fact that Java started with an installed base of >zero long after Windows was dominant. AND despite the fact that developers >had to learn an entire new language, application framework, and class >hierarchy in order to use it. Actually, the fact that Java is so incredibly similar to C++ is a very important key to it's success. I was able to make use of many years of C++ programming when I began coding in Java. If it had been an entirely new language, I would not have been as quick to adopt it. >AND despite the fact that many key parts >of the application framework were late or missing. AND despite the fact >that Java to this day isn't really "write once, run anywhere" unless >you're very good and very, VERY careful. Maybe, but I'd much rather "port" Java than C/C++. I've done *a lot* of both, and it's much easier. >FreeBSD emulation for Linux (and, for that matter, other UNIX-like OSes and >even NT) would not have anywhere near this many hurdles to overcome. It >would encourage the development of hundreds -- even thousands -- of native >applications and become a stabilizing force in the raucous UNIX world. And >developers could do what they could not do with Linux: Use the time-tested >code of the utilities as the foundation of their own applications. > >We must therefore ask ourselves : Is FreeBSD to be an OS/2 or a Java? Well, let's at least not miss out on providing the best free OS for Java. >I was interested, strongly, in trying to make it the latter. But since >at least some people on this list seem not to be able to learn from the >past nor to develop a version from the future, it will likely be >fruitless to try. > >Now, I'll readily stand up to flames from all sides when advocating >a product (and believe me, I've had asbestos underwear handy ever since >I first used Usenet more than 15 years ago). But when you encounter >total negativism from the person or persons, you are trying to do >doing advocacy FOR, it's time to leave. Brett, I'm not commenting on whether the criticism was warranted, or not; however, I *do* think it isn't anywhere near as tough as the cold hard reality of architecting, designing, programming, marketing etc. your idea. If you quit this easily with a little criticism, you surely wouldn't last long in actually creating the thing. If you believe in it, stand up for it! Someone once said, "When people of integrity are told it can't be done, they quietly push on and let time prove them right." >So, farewell. I'm sure you'll manage to run FreeBSD into the ground >without me. I realize this is probably a statement made out of frustration, but it really doesn't help accomplish anything. >--Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 22:20:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905D0150FF for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:20:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.56]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA15CE; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:20:29 +0100 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA65923; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:21:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990325203830.00a2b440@localhost> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:21:18 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Swan song Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 26-Mar-99 Brett Glass wrote: > After pondering, silently, what to do about the attitudes I've seen > expressed on this list, I've decided that I'd best save my time, > bandwidth, and effort by resigning from it. > > Ironically, my first attempt to resign (which failed because it somehow > went to the list instead of the listserv) brought several responses > prompting me not to do so. They almost changed my mind.... UNTIL I read > the following from Jordan Hubbard, the FreeBSD project's nominal "leader:" > >>Frankly, I don't see any benefits these days which outweigh >>the disadvantages of multiple-day flamewars on -advocacy. You're >>clearly on the debit side of the ledger and if you now propose to get >>out before you get any further into the red, I can't argue with the >>wisdom of that. Happy trails, dude! :) > > Spoken like a true leader. Oh, and this same "leader" is steering > developers away from the FreeBSD platform by telling them to "do Linux > first" -- and, effectively, FreeBSD never. Although I can disagree with some of Jordan's discissions at times I also can respect some of the others he made. The problem I now see with FreeBSD is the fact that true innovation is sometimes hold back by the more conservative teammembers. > Nor have others been more encouraging. My attempts to lay out > tactics and strategies for FreeBSD advocacy have met with scorn, > derision, and personal attacks. One of the things I learned the last few weeks/months is that words just don't cover all if one is expecting a whole lot of people to join the fray. I, myself, have thus started to make sure some software packages which I deem important compile and work a-ok on FreeBSD (that is: zebra, gtk+/gnome related stuff, and some other things) and that some new software gets developed primarily under BSD. > As for the specific project I most recently proposed: I still firmly > believe that making other platforms emulate FreeBSD -- NOT the > other way around -- is the only tactic which can save FreeBSD from being > smothered by Linux. If FreeBSD does not establish itself as the ABI and > API of choice, it will die -- its best code co-opted and released under > the GPL as part of Linux, the rest discarded due to an insufficient > user base to keep up with Linux's progress. Emulation is fine as long as it isn't a default. I'd hate to see FreeBSD become just an OS that can run emulation and thusly have userland tools. If that is the general consensus or idea now, then I find this lack of true BSD support a lack of those who think this way. Try to do some programming on existing code, provide BSD compatibility towards the code, and in the _ultimate_ case use emulation. That's what I have done and am still doing (anyone remember the thread in which Terry and I moaned about the patches directories from /usr/ports don't get reported back often enough?). > To see this, one must only look at history. As I've mentioned earlier, > OS/2, like FreeBSD, was technically superior to the more popular Windows, > but lost all vendor support because it emulated a product with the larger > installed base. (Yes, there were other reasons; however, this was THE nail > in the coffin.) OS/2 couldn't track Windows forever (just as FreeBSD's > Linux emulation may not always be able to track Linux), and application > vendors saw no reason to add a new SKU it when they could write only for > Windows. Without applications, a platform dies -- and so it was with OS/2. Emulation has to _enrich_ a product, not replace it. > FreeBSD emulation for Linux (and, for that matter, other UNIX-like OSes > and even NT) would not have anywhere near this many hurdles to overcome. > It would encourage the development of hundreds -- even thousands -- of > native applications and become a stabilizing force in the raucous UNIX > world. And developers could do what they could not do with Linux: Use the > time-tested code of the utilities as the foundation of their own > applications. > > We must therefore ask ourselves : Is FreeBSD to be an OS/2 or a Java? Neither, a comparison with a programming language isn't that useful IMHO. And certainly not an OS/2. We just need application developers to be creative and write native apps. I know I do, I know some others who do, how about the rest of you guys? > I was interested, strongly, in trying to make it the latter. But since > at least some people on this list seem not to be able to learn from the > past nor to develop a version from the future, it will likely be > fruitless to try. I admit that I sometimes have the idea that we're not that aimed at the future, it might have several reasons and I really don't feel like discussing it right now. But I can only hope to change it by my work and words and make a change for the better... > So, farewell. I'm sure you'll manage to run FreeBSD into the ground > without me. Sorry to say this Brett as I've never really took offence in yer mails as some did, but it's time to quit yer moaning and bitchin' and start doing something. This FreeBSD community knows people who are willing to do things, but I have seen that there needs to be a foundation before they care to tread on it. So why not write some articles and mail them off towards some mags? Do what ye proposed yerself. That's all I can say... So long, IMHO -advocacy lost a wellvoiced person... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The idea does not replace the work... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 22:21:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261EE14E07 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:21:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-139.thuntek.net [207.66.52.139]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id XAA03565; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:21:16 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FB2731.1537226D@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:20:33 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Licia , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: <6503.922407336@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Licia has already indicated her willingness to tackle this in private mail, Jordan. My goal is actually for her to be point-person, because (as you indicate) there are larger issues and there have been previous discussions of this that we have not been privy to. I agree that postal mail is cumbersome, but there are some who will _never_ connect to the 'net, and we need to decide whether they are or are not worth counting somehow. No matter how easy we make PPP, there will always be clods who can't do ppp, and there will always be those who will buy WinModems and expect to run FreeBSD. One suggestion I would like to throw out is installing a cron job that remains a minor irritant until registration has been completed one way or another. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 22:25:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91EF1516F for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:25:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-139.thuntek.net [207.66.52.139]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id XAA03695; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:24:50 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FB2807.8CA0E809@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:24:07 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: <36FA6934.8F97D4A1@thuntek.net> <36FAD8AE.7008CE38@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > Donald Wilde wrote: > > > > Licia wrote: > > > > > > where it could be used to induce vendors to recognize FreeBSD? (i.e. 'label > > > your product as FreeBSD Compatible/whatever and we can give you a small > > > banner, for x number of views?' Please no flames, I know people hate banners, > > Licia, flames only mean that you're making people think. ;^) > > I don't hate banners as long as they download in a reasonably small time. > This might actually come true, now that USWest and TCI are racing to see > who gets to my house first, with DSL or Cable Modem support... Sure, you're rich. > > > > but I do think it's a significant enough source of influence, especially as > > > targeted as it is, to be of use in promoting FreeBSD.) > > > > > We're going to do a LOT more on the branding issue, including more > > visibility for our commercial supporters. We're not ashamed that FreeBSD > > can be used to make money and we'll all benefit, although homepage > > banners probably won't fly. More likely clickthrough logos on the > > revamped gallery section. > > We had originally discussed an entire web section for branded products, > with click-through to their site(s), to cross-advertise the availability > of FreeBSD branded products. We would offer this page as a target for > their products sites as well. I imagine FreeBSD Mall will be very > interested in carrying commercial products that are FreeBSD branded as > well, if suitable financial arrangements can be agreed upon. > This is an area where Christopher and we shall cross-link. Advertising compliance is our business, selling them is his. We _will_ implement the revamped gallery, Wes. The more we support our supporters the more they will _help_ us. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 22:51:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580CA14E4B for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:51:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26614; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:51:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36FB2E69.FE47E543@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:51:21 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI' References: <199903241019.LAA03626@rt2.synx.com> <36F8FB3B.96F7E718@softweyr.com> <19990325213508.B259@marder-1.localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 07:48:27AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > Remy Nonnenmacher wrote: > > > > > > FYI > > > > > > http://www.lmi.fr/c12565ef002d29ae/996ef68a9fd10db3c125669e00311b6a/d1e004841bd6acf0c125673800518e6a?OpenDocument > > > > > > For English readers: Summary: > > > > A nice article. Non French readers can get a somewhat stilted > > translation from Babelfish. Browse http://babelfish.altavista.com/ > > paste the above URL into the box, select French to English translation, > > and fire. > > > > I tried that Wes and it produced a very readable result. The > translation included a couple of sentences that really made me > chuckle though.... > > "Even Microsoft prefers it with Windows NT to manage its service > of Hotmail electronic mail, which counts several million subscribers" I think that should've been "prefers it to". Babelfish comes up with some real weiners sometimes. ;^) > "Most powerful and most stable. And it is not the opinion of the > only bearded and hairy system administrators swearing only by the > Unix free" Hey, that's ME they're talking about there... -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 23: 1:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1F0C1545B for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:01:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA26648; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:01:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36FB30AF.557ECB4B@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:01:03 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Donald Wilde Cc: Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: <36FA6934.8F97D4A1@thuntek.net> <36FAD8AE.7008CE38@softweyr.com> <36FB2807.8CA0E809@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde wrote: > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > Donald Wilde wrote: > > > > > > Licia wrote: > > > > > > > > where it could be used to induce vendors to recognize FreeBSD? (i.e. 'label > > > > your product as FreeBSD Compatible/whatever and we can give you a small > > > > banner, for x number of views?' Please no flames, I know people hate banners, > > > > Licia, flames only mean that you're making people think. ;^) > > > > I don't hate banners as long as they download in a reasonably small time. > > This might actually come true, now that USWest and TCI are racing to see > > who gets to my house first, with DSL or Cable Modem support... > > Sure, you're rich. Hardly. I pay $28/month for a second phone line now. @Home is only $35/month and DSL $39/month. The cost just isn't that much greater, even though the bandwidth is. Especially considering my current (56K analong modem) bandwidth is shared with 4 adults and 5 children. > > We had originally discussed an entire web section for branded products, > > with click-through to their site(s), to cross-advertise the availability > > of FreeBSD branded products. We would offer this page as a target for > > their products sites as well. I imagine FreeBSD Mall will be very > > interested in carrying commercial products that are FreeBSD branded as > > well, if suitable financial arrangements can be agreed upon. > > > This is an area where Christopher and we shall cross-link. Advertising > compliance is our business, selling them is his. We _will_ implement the > revamped gallery, Wes. The more we support our supporters the more they > will _help_ us. Yeah, that's the way it's supposed to work. It can't hope to work until we get our end propped up. Jason Wells was pretty interested in this, too. I surpised we haven't heard from him; I wonder if he dropped out of -advocacy? Jason? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 25 23:37:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99FE14E69 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:37:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA26708; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:37:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36FB3934.70C4ECA3@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:37:24 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: brett@lariat.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux References: <199903260234.TAA01443@usr09.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Why don't YOU go ask someone? It can't hurt, the worst they can do is > > say "No." They can't take away your birthday. > > I mostly don't ask because I'm not really that interested in a future > where Linux Torvalds controls the ABI for commercial applications for > my platform of choice. I don't think he takes a sufficiently long > view of things, architecturally (I frankly have a hard enough time > with some of the short term thinking that's happened in FreeBSD). I'd > rather pursue a destiny where bad (=shortsighted) architecture isn't a > fait accompli. I don't disagree with you on any of this, I just don't see a FreeBSD emulator for Linux ever being a useful tool. Even should you complete it, I strongly doubt it will get included in ANY distribution, let alone the ONLY ONE THAT MATTERS: RedHat. This is why I will continue to classify such an effort as "pissing in the wind" until proven otherwise. Still, we can agree to disagree on the usefulness of this and get on with our various projects, advocacy and otherwise. I wish you and Brett well. I also take back what I said about not being a beta-tester for it. Lemme know when it's ready to run, even alpha quality. I'll install it on Jeremy's Linux system at work and crash away. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 2:29: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D591F15548 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:29:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 27429 invoked from network); 26 Mar 1999 10:28:45 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 26 Mar 1999 10:28:45 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id FAA00745; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:28:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903261028.FAA00745@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux In-Reply-To: <199903260234.TAA01443@usr09.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 26, 99 02:34:14 am" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:28:44 -0500 (EST) Cc: wes@softweyr.com, tlambert@primenet.com, brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu, brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, advocacy@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert said: > > I understand. Now you are chasing the Linux ABI problem, which was my > point: the Linux ABI is fluid enough that you will have a hard time > saying that about two different Linux ditributions, let alone about > a FreeBSD implementing the ABI from a particular Linux distribution. > The problem is as hard as tracking Win32 unde OS/2. Look at how > long Linux threaded applications failed to run on FreeBSD. > Slightly off topic: FreeBSD isn't even able to run current NetBSD binaries (last time I checked.) Since FreeBSD and NetBSD are brothers (and not just cousins), one would think that FreeBSD would be able to keep up there. If Linux takes some odd directions in the future (which wouldn't surprise me), it is doubtful (with the current organization) that FreeBSD will keep up. The new, farther sighted marketing will tend to help give feedback to the core team and other developers, but such feedback has previously been errant or missing. It would be good to petition the -core team to listen to the marketing person, and not poo-poo him as others have been (both rightfully and wrongly.) It is easy to poo-poo ideas after it becomes a habit to do so. It is time for OPEN minds. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 2:36:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8733D15548 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:36:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 3350 invoked from network); 26 Mar 1999 10:35:55 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 26 Mar 1999 10:35:55 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id FAA00752; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:35:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903261035.FAA00752@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: unsubscribe advocacy In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990325172655.00a26e80@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Mar 25, 99 05:27:14 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:35:55 -0500 (EST) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass said: > > unsubscribe advocacy > Whether or not your ideas are "crackpot", one should realize that many of those who might disagree with you (not all of 'em) only differ in project position and often differ in competency to the negative. It is a cr*pshoot as to who has been making reasonable suggestions as to marketing, because previous efforts have been folly. Many of those who might have been putting you down have shown little competency to be able to make the judgement that they have pronounced. Future efforts might be competent, and I am encouraged with some of the response and discourse that I have seen so far. With a competent marketing person, the need for aggressive advocacy will be lessened. The need for aggressiveness was a result of klutzy fumbling from previous efforts, and the future bodes well. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 3:56:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from corp.au.triax.com (slwag2p20.ozemail.com.au [203.108.157.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 865E314F7F; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 03:56:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@corp.au.triax.com) Received: (from jim@localhost) by corp.au.triax.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA15724; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 22:56:28 +1100 (EST) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 22:56:27 +1100 From: Jim Mock To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: GAIM images Message-ID: <19990326225627.A15666@corp.au.triax.com> Reply-To: jim@corp.au.triax.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I wasn't sure where this should go, but I'd like to get the opinions of both lists, which is the reason for the cross-post.. I'm currently working on a port of GAIM, which is a gtk+ version the AOL Instant Messenger. The only problem is that the original image is definetly Linux oriented.. http://www.triax.com/~jim/gaim/logo.jpg and I don't really want to use that image in the port since it's for FreeBSD. I decided to make my own (it could definetly use some work) to replace that image when I finish the port. My version is at http://www.triax.com/~jim/gaim/jim-logo.jpg What I want to know is if anyone has any objections or if there are any problems with using something like that.. basically it's just my way of showing that it runs on FreeBSD too, though that might not be the best way to do it ;) If anyone has any ideas for improvements or if someone less graphically challenged can come up with something better looking I'd be appreciative. Btw, I got the beastie image from the FreeBSD Mall's advocacy section. I don't know if Susannah Coleman read this list (I know Chris does though), but I've gotta say those images rock. Later, -- Jim Mock System Administrator jim@corp.au.triax.com ,-._|\ FreeBSD work: Triax Internet Services http://www.triax.com/ / \ The personal: http://www.triax.com/~jim/ \_,--._/ Power To The FreeBSD 'zine http://www.freebsdzine.org/ v Serve! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 5: 4:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rt2.synx.com (tech.boostworks.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912E014F14 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:03:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@synx.com) Received: from synx.com (rn.synx.com [192.1.1.241]) by rt2.synx.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA12081; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:08:23 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:00:02 +0100 (CET) From: Remy Nonnenmacher Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: Re: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI' To: wes@softweyr.com Cc: marko@uk.radan.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36FB2E69.FE47E543@softweyr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 25 Mar, Wes Peters wrote: > Mark Ovens wrote: >> >> On Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 07:48:27AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >> > Remy Nonnenmacher wrote: >> > > >> > > FYI >> > > >> > > http://www.lmi.fr/c12565ef002d29ae/996ef68a9fd10db3c125669e00311b6a/d1e004841bd6acf0c125673800518e6a?OpenDocument >> > > >> > > For English readers: Summary: >> > >> > A nice article. Non French readers can get a somewhat stilted >> > translation from Babelfish. Browse http://babelfish.altavista.com/ >> > paste the above URL into the box, select French to English translation, >> > and fire. >> > >> >> I tried that Wes and it produced a very readable result. The >> translation included a couple of sentences that really made me >> chuckle though.... >> >> "Even Microsoft prefers it with Windows NT to manage its service >> of Hotmail electronic mail, which counts several million subscribers" > > I think that should've been "prefers it to". Babelfish comes up with > some real weiners sometimes. ;^) Right. "... prefers it [FreeBSD] to ....". Babelfish have problems with anything more complicated than 'peter heats apples' ;). > >> "Most powerful and most stable. And it is not the opinion of the >> only bearded and hairy system administrators swearing only by the >> Unix free" > > Hey, that's ME they're talking about there... > Hum... I'm afraid... Yes. It would have been "...is not only the opinion of sysadmin gurus....." (cultural context: gurus = hairy = old student = uncontrolable/revolutionary = early-adopters = etc.....) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 5:19:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81471509A for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:19:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10QWWI-0003Id-0C; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:19:31 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA02897; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:18:40 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA05385; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:18:38 GMT Message-ID: <36FB890E.2178904E@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:18:06 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: remy@synx.com Cc: wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI' References: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Remy Nonnenmacher wrote: > > On 25 Mar, Wes Peters wrote: > > Mark Ovens wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 24, 1999 at 07:48:27AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > >> > Remy Nonnenmacher wrote: > >> > > > >> > > FYI > >> > > > >> > > http://www.lmi.fr/c12565ef002d29ae/996ef68a9fd10db3c125669e00311b6a/d1e004841bd6acf0c125673800518e6a?OpenDocument > >> > > > >> > > For English readers: Summary: > >> > > >> > A nice article. Non French readers can get a somewhat stilted > >> > translation from Babelfish. Browse http://babelfish.altavista.com/ > >> > paste the above URL into the box, select French to English translation, > >> > and fire. > >> > > >> > >> I tried that Wes and it produced a very readable result. The > >> translation included a couple of sentences that really made me > >> chuckle though.... > >> > >> "Even Microsoft prefers it with Windows NT to manage its service > >> of Hotmail electronic mail, which counts several million subscribers" > > > > I think that should've been "prefers it to". Babelfish comes up with > > some real weiners sometimes. ;^) > > Right. "... prefers it [FreeBSD] to ....". Babelfish have problems with > anything more complicated than 'peter heats apples' ;). > It wasn't the grammar that amused me, I could read through that, it was the meaning; "Microsoft prefers it to NT" > > > >> "Most powerful and most stable. And it is not the opinion of the > >> only bearded and hairy system administrators swearing only by the > >> Unix free" > > > > Hey, that's ME they're talking about there... > > Ah, so it was you in the picture that Greg Lehey posted a few days ago (in the thread about dressing up in Daemon costumes) ;-) > > Hum... I'm afraid... Yes. It would have been "...is not only the > opinion of sysadmin gurus....." (cultural context: gurus = hairy = old > student = uncontrolable/revolutionary = early-adopters = etc.....) > Again it wasn't the grammar, it was the stereotype; bearded, hairy sysadmins proclaiming "computing is a religion, and Unix is the only true faith". > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 5:35:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rt2.synx.com (tech.boostworks.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E989D14E8C for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:35:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@synx.com) Received: from synx.com (rn.synx.com [192.1.1.241]) by rt2.synx.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA12275; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:41:17 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199903261341.OAA12275@rt2.synx.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:32:56 +0100 (CET) From: Remy Nonnenmacher Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: Re: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI' To: marko@uk.radan.com Cc: wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36FB890E.2178904E@uk.radan.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 26 Mar, Mark Ovens wrote: >>..... > > Again it wasn't the grammar, it was the stereotype; bearded, hairy > sysadmins proclaiming "computing is a religion, and Unix is the only > true faith". > Don't you know i have a minaret in the middle of the business area and that every four hour, i climb it to shout "Uniiiiiiiiiiiix U Hakbaaaaaar" with a loudspeaker ? :). (remaining of time, i'm down in the caves, spanish great-inquisitor dressed to...hum..."learn" poor, lost, users.... :))))). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 5:40:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1C2214E8C for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:40:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10QWqI-0005Uo-0C; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:40:13 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA02976; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:39:14 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA05635; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:39:13 GMT Message-ID: <36FB8DE1.21A3ED52@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:38:41 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: remy@synx.com Cc: wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI' References: <199903261341.OAA12275@rt2.synx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Remy Nonnenmacher wrote: > > On 26 Mar, Mark Ovens wrote: > >>..... > > > > Again it wasn't the grammar, it was the stereotype; bearded, hairy > > sysadmins proclaiming "computing is a religion, and Unix is the only > > true faith". > > > > Don't you know i have a minaret in the middle of the business area and > that every four hour, i climb it to shout "Uniiiiiiiiiiiix U > Hakbaaaaaar" with a loudspeaker ? :). > > (remaining of time, i'm down in the caves, spanish great-inquisitor > dressed to...hum..."learn" poor, lost, users.... :))))). > > ROFL :-) -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 5:49:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CAF14EFC for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:49:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org) Received: from pechter.dyndns.org (bg-tc-ppp672.monmouth.com [209.191.59.106]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA02336; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:49:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.dyndns.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) id IAA01571; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:49:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199903261349.IAA01571@pechter.dyndns.org> Subject: Re: Swan song In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990325203830.00a2b440@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Mar 25, 1999 9:43:54 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:49:13 -0500 (EST) Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Everyone: > > Now, I'll readily stand up to flames from all sides when advocating > a product (and believe me, I've had asbestos underwear handy ever since > I first used Usenet more than 15 years ago). But when you encounter > total negativism from the person or persons, you are trying to do > doing advocacy FOR, it's time to leave. > > So, farewell. I'm sure you'll manage to run FreeBSD into the ground > without me. > > --Brett Glass Sorry to see you go. I've disagreed with some of your points, but you had FreeBSD as a priority which was appreciated. I hate to say this, but Linux has won for the time being. I'm considering a switch to NetBSD or Linux here at home because of a number of problems with the direction FreeBSD has taken with the 3.x and 4.x releases. I've pushed hard to get FreeBSD into work, but I've begun working with Linux at the office and it requires much less push to get it adopted. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 5:53:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8658014FAC for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:53:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA01397; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:51:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903261351.FAA01397@implode.root.com> To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Swan song In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:49:13 EST." <199903261349.IAA01571@pechter.dyndns.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:51:01 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I hate to say this, but Linux has won for the time being. >I'm considering a switch to NetBSD or Linux here at home because of >a number of problems with the direction FreeBSD has taken with the 3.x >and 4.x releases. What you please elaborate? What problems do you have with the direction we're going? -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 6: 1:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB8E15145 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:01:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10QXAm-000G3d-0B; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:01:21 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA03011; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:00:12 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA05860; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:00:10 GMT Message-ID: <36FB92CA.187A0C3@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:59:38 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Licia Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Licia wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > The install process registration has made me wonder too. Would it be possibl > > e > > > perhaps to offer a "print this out and mail it in" registration for people > > > > The registration process everyone is currently seeing now really need > > to be ripped out and replaced. Why? Several reasons. > > > > One, as you've noted, there's no way to do the registration when you > > haven't got email set up yet; a good percentage of the registrations > > we get are actually bounced back by freebsd.org's spam filter, which > > doesn't deal with sites without proper DNS. When you've set the > > machine up before the DNS entry, as many do, that's clearly not going > > to work. > > > > Secondly there's the fact that email, even though clearly imperfect, > > is the only way to go. We don't deal well with web site registration > > (at least not in a way which weeds/prevents duplicates or allows > > someone to change their existing entries) and we don't allow people to > > postal mail their stuff in to some counter person. > > > > The idea of having people register at installation time is a good one, > > don't get me wrong, but my initial "proof of concept implementation" > > there is clearly showing many cracks now. Who'd like to take over > > registration at this stage? > > > > - Jordan > > > > Would you be interested in the possibility of a standalone TCP registration > server? A simple protocol could be used to create/edit/delete registrations. > With a simple whois style 'handle' system and basic authentication it would be > possible to allowe users to maintain their own entries in the system, with > virtually no added effort from staff or such. I'd personally also like to see > the possibility of users snail mailing in their registrations, if they simply > have no way of getting online to do it as well. > If you decide to run with this idea then may I make a couple of suggestions? 1) When designing the registration form (whether it's a printed form to go with the CDs or an ASCII file for printing out) then please don't forget that FreeBSD has an international user base and non-US addresses often don't fit well into a US-style address template. 2) To encourage more people to complete and send in the form why not try and get volunteers to handle the forms in their country? This would spread the workload and should hopefully more people would send the forms in because they wouldn't have the inconvenience of having to go to the post office to find the cost of mailing to the US. The volunteer could then enter the details from the forms onto the registration database on behalf of the non-connected users. Before you ask, yes I am volunteering to do this for the UK (and Western Europe if necessary) OK it's not a great contribution to the project, but every little bit helps, or so they say. > If you're interested I can probably get a basic demonstration server written > over the weekend and at least one demonstration client, I imagine. I'd like > to also write a command line tool that would allow users to edit their > registrations (allowing for multiple cpu's installed per person, with as much > information as they care to give for possible demographics use) with the ease > of something like chpass. > > I could also probably provide clients that would work from within sysinstall, > and some simple way for snailmail to be handled as well though that would > take longer than a single weekend :). > > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] > [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] > [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] > > main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 6:10:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791E9152F3 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:10:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-016.thuntek.net [207.66.52.16]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA22716; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:10:22 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FB952B.2E5E7F3C@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:09:47 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Development Projects (was:Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux) References: <199903261028.FAA00745@y.dyson.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John S. Dyson wrote: > [snip earlier thread and co-listeners, everybody but BG is on -advo] > > > Slightly off topic: > FreeBSD isn't even able to run current NetBSD binaries (last time > I checked.) Since FreeBSD and NetBSD are brothers (and not just > cousins), one would think that FreeBSD would be able to keep up there. > > If Linux takes some odd directions in the future (which wouldn't surprise > me), it is doubtful (with the current organization) that FreeBSD will keep > up. The new, farther sighted marketing will tend to help give feedback > to the core team and other developers, but such feedback has previously > been errant or missing. > > It would be good to petition the -core team to listen to the marketing > person, and not poo-poo him as others have been (both rightfully and > wrongly.) It is easy to poo-poo ideas after it becomes a habit to do > so. It is time for OPEN minds. PMFJI, I heard my title mentioned. I spent a few hours listening to our local users [including Alan Lundin of Sandia, a real power user] at our FUUNM meeting last night. Our core users -- server users -- need NFS to work right. Alan would also like true multiprocessor threads a la Enterprise 450, but he'll settle for NFS not hanging up the network. He also said the two projects might be related? He also acknowledged that FBSD NFS is the BEST Open Source NFS, but if it doesn't work perfectly it debunks our stability claim to a large portion of the MIS market who would love to be our friends. We cannot afford to lock an NFS network. PERIOD. Other comments (from the more desktop-oriented) were that shrinkwrap suites are critical to their being able to sell FreeBSD into the corporate networks. I agree with this. I think the Applix port (as opposed to XOffice, which I understand is really 'heavy' on resource usage) is a critical watershed in terms of the desktop. Java server and JDK native support is #3. A full-featured browser and modern mail client is #4, one that doesn't hang when the ppp is not connected. MPHO is that Netscape is not likely to give us that, since AOL has hogtied and is now shredding them. Mozilla is a better choice in the long run, I think. Also, Mutt just doesn't cut it in the desktop world used to Eudora and Netscape mail readers. If we can accomplish _just_ these four things with our code-project resources, plus get a native Oracle 8 port, I think they would give us a big boost in unit installs. Can I announce the solutions next week? ;-) -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 6:27:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B54E150FA for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:27:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-016.thuntek.net [207.66.52.16]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA24693; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:27:00 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FB9913.D64CF866@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:26:27 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: <36FA6934.8F97D4A1@thuntek.net> <36FAD8AE.7008CE38@softweyr.com> <36FB2807.8CA0E809@thuntek.net> <36FB30AF.557ECB4B@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > Donald Wilde wrote: > > > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > > Donald Wilde wrote: > > > > > > > > Licia wrote: > > > > > > > > > > where it could be used to induce vendors to recognize FreeBSD? (i.e. 'label > > > > > your product as FreeBSD Compatible/whatever and we can give you a small > > > > > banner, for x number of views?' Please no flames, I know people hate banners, > > > > > > Licia, flames only mean that you're making people think. ;^) > > > > > > I don't hate banners as long as they download in a reasonably small time. > > > This might actually come true, now that USWest and TCI are racing to see > > > who gets to my house first, with DSL or Cable Modem support... > > > > Sure, you're rich. > > Hardly. I pay $28/month for a second phone line now. @Home is only $35/month > and DSL $39/month. The cost just isn't that much greater, even though the > bandwidth is. Especially considering my current (56K analong modem) bandwidth > is shared with 4 adults and 5 children. > The perception on their part is that you'll wire into their advertising machines and spend money elsewhere. > > > We had originally discussed an entire web section for branded products, > > > with click-through to their site(s), to cross-advertise the availability > > > of FreeBSD branded products. We would offer this page as a target for > > > their products sites as well. I imagine FreeBSD Mall will be very > > > interested in carrying commercial products that are FreeBSD branded as > > > well, if suitable financial arrangements can be agreed upon. > > > > > This is an area where Christopher and we shall cross-link. Advertising > > compliance is our business, selling them is his. We _will_ implement the > > revamped gallery, Wes. The more we support our supporters the more they > > will _help_ us. > > Yeah, that's the way it's supposed to work. It can't hope to work until > we get our end propped up. > Thassa my job, Wes. =8-) > Jason Wells was pretty interested in this, too. I surpised we haven't > heard from him; I wonder if he dropped out of -advocacy? Jason? > Yeah, we lost a _lot_ of good people over the last year. I'm sure there a lot who will be glad to come back once we start actually doing something, but time will tell. I'm really glad the major noise factor removed himself (Gawd, what a tearful exit!!!) from -advocacy. MHO is that the fact that he couldn't even read and follow the majordomo unsubscribe instructions at the bottom of the page shows there was never any hope of real code contributions on any level from him, as good as he was as a wordsmith. I was about to suggest we make this a moderated list, even just deleting those indestructible threads takes time! -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 6:30:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AC4F150FA for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:30:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03027; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:30:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03095; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:30:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <36FB952B.2E5E7F3C@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:30:22 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Donald Wilde Subject: RE: Development Projects (was:Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, dyson@iquest.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 26-Mar-99 Donald Wilde wrote: > Java server and JDK native support is #3. Speedy JDK is the big thing. > A full-featured browser and modern mail client is #4, one that doesn't > hang when the ppp is not connected. MPHO is that Netscape is not likely > to give us that, since AOL has hogtied and is now shredding them. > Mozilla is a better choice in the long run, I think. Also, Mutt just > doesn't cut it in the desktop world used to Eudora and Netscape mail > readers. I use XFMail for my mail reader. It's a Eudora-like mail program for X that supports POP3, IMAP, and local mailboxes. It has very nice filtering rules that can be setup without too much difficulty. It supports both MH and MBox mailboxes, and has integrated PGP support that I know works with 2.6.2, and it has an option for PGP 5.0, I just haven't tried it. It also has an address book for nicknames and whatnot. So, try it out, we may already have a possible solution for part of #4. When you are not connected to the phone, it does not die. If it tries to check the mail, you can press the stop button on the main toolbar and it aborts the attempt and lets you read/write messsages. > If we can accomplish _just_ these four things with our code-project > resources, plus get a native Oracle 8 port, I think they would give us a > big boost in unit installs. Can I announce the solutions next week? ;-) > -- > Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" > Wilde Media > 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 > Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 6:56:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D2DC81553B for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:56:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 13277 invoked from network); 26 Mar 1999 14:56:32 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 26 Mar 1999 14:56:32 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA08856; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:56:31 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903261456.JAA08856@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Development Projects (was:Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux) In-Reply-To: <36FB952B.2E5E7F3C@thuntek.net> from Donald Wilde at "Mar 26, 99 07:09:47 am" To: dwilde1@thuntek.net (Donald Wilde) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:56:31 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > If we can accomplish _just_ these four things with our code-project > resources, plus get a native Oracle 8 port, I think they would give us a > big boost in unit installs. Can I announce the solutions next week? ;-) > I had some internal info about Oracle, and there was probably a predispostion a year or so ago to do a FreeBSD port. However, the previous issues were not technical. (Whatever rants that I have had about lack of FreeBSD marketing quality also apply to me -- so there was little that I could do at Oracle, except to politic those people at NCI who still have contacts there.) To further encourage you, I feel that a bona-fide and competent marketing plan, with realistic estimates might help alot. Also, a comparative estimate of the OS capabilities might show that FreeBSD is quite appropriate for reasonable database support. The version of Oracle running on the NCI stuff was a bit lame, partially because it didn't utilize my AIO stuff (it was done WAY before AIO was written.) From a technical side, FreeBSD is positioned very well to support large scale commercial databases (okay, not large scale, but reasonable department sized applications.) :-). This is one thing that I took very seriously, and part of my longer term plan. Perhaps taking the position that FreeBSD users are often willing to spend money when it is useful for commercial work, and that FreeBSD is a commerce friendly OS. That fact is well known, and large scale and heavily invested organizations are relatively common in the FreeBSD world. The commerce to hacker ratio on FreeBSD is quite large... Hackers don't buy Oracle, but commercial users do. Doing market analysis on a hacker OS, for commercial apps can be very, very tricky. Note my rants about Linux not even supporting large files (and it's historical lack of support for raw files) are from an understanding what DB software really likes to have. Sure the DB software has workarounds for lame OSes, and my AIO code (which worked fine for it's application at Oracle) was part of the attempt to bring FreeBSD up closer to what is really nice for a true medium sized database. (It was also for Oracle video server.) FreeBSD doesn't need threads to support nice RAW AIO behavior. Emulated threading methods just don't work very well from a CPU standpoint, but that emulation was implemented for consistant API reasons. (Doing AIO in libraries is very very lame.) The realtime requirements for many AIO applications are demanding, and libararies that cause more kernel to user transitions are *silly*. If you need technical ammo, I can help you. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 6:58:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7175E15543 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:58:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-016.thuntek.net [207.66.52.16]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA29867; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:58:05 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FBA05D.8B171CCE@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:57:33 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Development Projects (was:Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > > On 26-Mar-99 Donald Wilde wrote: [snip] > > A full-featured browser and modern mail client is #4, one that doesn't > > hang when the ppp is not connected. MPHO is that Netscape is not likely > > to give us that, since AOL has hogtied and is now shredding them. > > Mozilla is a better choice in the long run, I think. Also, Mutt just > > doesn't cut it in the desktop world used to Eudora and Netscape mail > > readers. > > I use XFMail for my mail reader. It's a Eudora-like mail program for X that > supports POP3, IMAP, and local mailboxes. This leads into another one of my pet peeves about /stand/sysinstall and the ports tree. xfmail is IN our ports tree, but I went right by it when I did my desktop's 3.1 install. Many of our ../pkg/DESCR files are woefully dated, and many modern users don't have the foggiest idea what they do or what dependencies they require. (CVSup and Modula comes to mind, also the 47 different .releases of Tcl that get loaded) Will somebody commit to organizing an effort to update the one-liners and expand the DESCR files? I don't see much code being required, but lots of fingerwork and a bit of careful research. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 7: 5:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jaguar.ir.miami.edu (jaguar.ir.miami.edu [129.171.32.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F831506E for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:05:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcus@miami.edu) Received: from jaguar.ir.miami.edu ("port 3596"@jaguar.ir.miami.edu [129.171.32.10]) by jaguar.ir.miami.edu (PMDF V5.2-29 #30976) with ESMTP id <0F9700C2WJ8HUE@jaguar.ir.miami.edu> for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:05:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:05:05 -0500 (EST) From: "Joe \"Marcus\" Clarke" Subject: Re: Swan song In-reply-to: <199903261351.FAA01397@implode.root.com> To: David Greenman Cc: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com, Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, David Greenman wrote: > >I hate to say this, but Linux has won for the time being. > >I'm considering a switch to NetBSD or Linux here at home because of > >a number of problems with the direction FreeBSD has taken with the 3.x > >and 4.x releases. > > What you please elaborate? What problems do you have with the direction > we're going? Personally, I like the way FreeBSD is going. They have a -stable, and a -current tree, they are committed to timely releases, bug fixes, new features keeping with industry releases, and user input on release schedules and feature deployment. I've actually converted three Linux users in the past week because of FreeBSD's improved stability, better software install model, and better driver support. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project Joe Clarke CSE Cisco Systems RTP > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 7:16:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F7214C08 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:16:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id KAA25003; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xma024540; Fri, 26 Mar 99 10:15:34 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:15:29 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-reply-to: To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, too, but it just means I'm causing people to think, right? :) One thing that I've noticed about product registrations: people are more likely to DO it if there's an incentive. 3Com did it with their Palm Pilots; if you registered, you got a gift. Would it be possible to do the same thing with FreeBSD? Things I'm thinking might work: a sticker or two (if we want really low-cost incentives), the next release at a discount, etc. I'm thinking that there could be a registration postcard in the WC distribution, and there could be a notice at the installation as well. If we were to go with the discounted future release, this may have an overall POSITIVE effect: those customers who register after *downloading* the install might be more likely to PAY for the discounted next release ("hey, it's cheaper, it's a one-time deal, and I like having the CD's!"), thereby adding to WC's sales. Of course, there are downsides: the obvious cost of hte incentive, and the hidden costs: we'd need people to enter in registration information that came via snail-mail, database maintainers, etc. Just something to think about... SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 7:18:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E3FC14C08 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:18:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-016.thuntek.net [207.66.52.16]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA03038; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:17:24 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FBA4E5.CBDB56CE@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:16:53 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: dyson@iquest.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Development Projects (was:Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux) References: <199903261456.JAA08856@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > > If we can accomplish _just_ these four things with our code-project > > resources, plus get a native Oracle 8 port, I think they would give us a > > big boost in unit installs. Can I announce the solutions next week? ;-) > > > I had some internal info about Oracle, and there was probably a > predispostion a year or so ago to do a FreeBSD port. However, the [snip] > Perhaps taking the position that FreeBSD users are often willing to spend > money when it is useful for commercial work, and that FreeBSD is a commerce > friendly OS. That fact is well known, and large scale and heavily invested > organizations are relatively common in the FreeBSD world. The commerce to > hacker ratio on FreeBSD is quite large... Hackers don't buy Oracle, but > commercial users do. Doing market analysis on a hacker OS, for commercial > apps can be very, very tricky. > This is going to be a thrust of our marketing, to increase the perception of FreeBSD as a pro-commercial server OS. It already is for Apache servers, and Oracle8 is critical in the MIS world. (As is NFS... we _cannot_ ignore that plea!) One thing we _will_ be doing is to create a web signup for MIS users who are willing to state their interest in a native port of XYZ software, with the understanding that that list _will_ go directly to XYZ's marketing people and that lying to stuff the box will not be tolerated inasmuch as it will destroy our credibility. [snip] > If you need technical ammo, I can help you. > > John A previous thread talked about developing a solid business proposal to present to ISV's and hardware vendors. Besides the abovementioned market data, we will need to have all our bases covered for technical suitability so we can convince them that their verify phase will have minimal cost. Can you (and other -hackers with _knowledge_ of the needs) dissect this issue in a white paper for us? Oracle is a very important, high-profile catch, and it will be well worth the effort to nail them down, especilly since they are already familiar with FreeBSD. Bob will support us with the resources to add professionalism and flash to our presentation, it's one of the key targets he mentioned to me. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 7:20:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D2BDD14C08 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:20:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 18763 invoked from network); 26 Mar 1999 15:19:49 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 26 Mar 1999 15:19:49 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA01629; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:19:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903261519.KAA01629@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Swan song In-Reply-To: <199903261349.IAA01571@pechter.dyndns.org> from Bill Pechter at "Mar 26, 99 08:49:13 am" To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:19:46 -0500 (EST) Cc: brett@lariat.org, advocacy@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Pechter said: > > I hate to say this, but Linux has won for the time being. > I'm considering a switch to NetBSD or Linux here at home because of > a number of problems with the direction FreeBSD has taken with the 3.x > and 4.x releases. > > I've pushed hard to get FreeBSD into work, but I've begun working with > Linux at the office and it requires much less push to get it adopted. > That is similar to what happened to me at NCI, the direction is more of a NetBSD and another (which I cannot talk about yet). Oracle did Linux probably because of pure numbers, an appearance of critical mass, and the advocacy that certain people with 'le bec fin' seem to hate so much. After all of what I had tried to do, the total lack of *effective* marketing support just scuttled whatever FreeBSD could offer. There have been almost NO technical complaints about FreeBSD (that we couldn't resolve), but goof-ball market positioning (depending on technical excellence only, and misunderstanding what marketing is) was disaster. The fear of legitimate technical comparisons needs to be resolved, with organized comparative analysis done for real world applications. The fear that I always had (even when I gave out technical performance measurements) was giving away too much info to the competition. I still have very, very nice (but ugly) performance measurement tools... I certainly wouldn't release much information about those, but spending time with the real applications gives enough info to the end-user, while not giving very much info to the competition. On the technical side, I suggest that those who make changes that impact performance, should develop carefully constructed performance measurement tools. There is alot of risk of cowboy development breaking things. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 7:22:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A646515140 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:22:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-016.thuntek.net [207.66.52.16]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA04046; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:21:40 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FBA5E5.26FB0CE6@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:21:09 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zippy Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Zippy wrote: > > I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, too, but it just means I'm causing > people to think, right? :) > > One thing that I've noticed about product registrations: people are more > likely to DO it if there's an incentive. 3Com did it with their Palm > Pilots; if you registered, you got a gift. Would it be possible to do the > same thing with FreeBSD? > Things I'm thinking might work: a sticker or two (if we want really > low-cost incentives), the next release at a discount, etc. I'm thinking > that there could be a registration postcard in the WC distribution, and > there could be a notice at the installation as well. > Both are good ideas. How about the beautiful little 1" emblems or an embroidered FreeBSD patch? > If we were to go with the discounted future release, this may have an > overall POSITIVE effect: those customers who register after *downloading* > the install might be more likely to PAY for the discounted next release > ("hey, it's cheaper, it's a one-time deal, and I like having the CD's!"), > thereby adding to WC's sales. > -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 7:27:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A20C9151C9 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:27:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 214 invoked from network); 26 Mar 1999 15:27:03 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 26 Mar 1999 15:27:03 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA01641; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:27:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903261527.KAA01641@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Development Projects (was:Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux) In-Reply-To: <36FBA4E5.CBDB56CE@thuntek.net> from Donald Wilde at "Mar 26, 99 08:16:53 am" To: dwilde1@thuntek.net (Donald Wilde) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:27:01 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, dyson@iquest.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde said: > > A previous thread talked about developing a solid business proposal to > present to ISV's and hardware vendors. Besides the abovementioned market > data, we will need to have all our bases covered for technical > suitability so we can convince them that their verify phase will have > minimal cost. Can you (and other -hackers with _knowledge_ of the needs) > dissect this issue in a white paper for us? > I don't do "papers", but can feed technical info to those who do... (My patience level for using natural language is quite limited, however there are a few points that I can pull together for you.) Whatever I create (which I'll send to you privately), will be free for whatever ethical use that you desire (including feeding it to someone who likes to do "papers".) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 8:55: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 753EA15096 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:54:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-173.thuntek.net [207.66.52.173]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id JAA18625; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:54:17 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FBBB9B.89A4282A@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:53:47 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Announce: FreeBSD JDK1.1.7 with ELF support References: <199903261613.JAA00184@mt.sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Nate, hi Steve! Congrats! I would like to present a suggestion. A number of the technical magazines have sections for product announcements. In DDj, it's "Of Interest". I would suggest that a native JDK port enhanced to ELF is enough of a leap that it's worth sending them all a blurb release in the name of the FreeBSD Project and giving your ../java URL. We should not abuse this by annoying them with stuff about EVERY little point-release, but 1.1.7 is a platform many developers write to. Forrest Cavalier's ReUSE RKT is mentioned in April DDJ, and it's a real showcase for the FreeBSD source tree. In general, the more releases we can get into print, the more our visibility is enhanced. Needless to say, don't mention the bugfixes! I'm sure they're in your docs on the ../java page. TIA! -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 9: 8:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7A714A14 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:08:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA07520; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:08:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA00832; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:08:32 -0700 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:08:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199903261708.KAA00832@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Donald Wilde Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Announce: FreeBSD JDK1.1.7 with ELF support In-Reply-To: <36FBBB9B.89A4282A@thuntek.net> References: <199903261613.JAA00184@mt.sri.com> <36FBBB9B.89A4282A@thuntek.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I would like to present a suggestion. A number of the technical > magazines have sections for product announcements. In DDj, it's "Of > Interest". I would suggest that a native JDK port enhanced to ELF is > enough of a leap that it's worth sending them all a blurb release in the > name of the FreeBSD Project and giving your ../java URL. Since I'm not good at blurb's, feel free to do it for me and submit it. This is a group operation, and having someone else do the 'PR legwork' makes it that much easier for us to get solid technical releases out. Thanks! Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 9:30:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFE9150D0 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:30:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA06514; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:29:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990326122654.018f8430@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:30:03 -0500 To: Donald Wilde From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: Development Projects (was:Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36FB952B.2E5E7F3C@thuntek.net> References: <199903261028.FAA00745@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:09 AM 3/26/99 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >... >Java server and JDK native support is #3. YES, YES, YES !!! Why not have access to thousands of Java applications because they run very well on FreeBSD. It makes me *sick* to think I may have to recommend NT or Solaris because of the quality of their Java implementation, but that is the current reality - I would be professionally negilgent to do otherwise currently. >A full-featured browser and modern mail client is #4, one that doesn't >hang when the ppp is not connected. MPHO is that Netscape is not likely >to give us that, since AOL has hogtied and is now shredding them. >Mozilla is a better choice in the long run, I think. Also, Mutt just >doesn't cut it in the desktop world used to Eudora and Netscape mail >readers. > >If we can accomplish _just_ these four things with our code-project >resources, plus get a native Oracle 8 port, I think they would give us a >big boost in unit installs. Can I announce the solutions next week? ;-) >-- >Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" >Wilde Media >1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 >Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 10: 4:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4344A15093 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:02:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-139.thuntek.net [207.66.52.139]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id LAA06202; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:02:22 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FBCB8F.AA2C817E@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:01:51 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Adkins , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Development Projects (was:Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux) References: <199903261028.FAA00745@y.dyson.net> <4.1.19990326122654.018f8430@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian, would you commit to writing a) a blurb to be sent to DDJ and others about the new release of 1.1.7, and b) an article showcasing the new release developments of JDK1.1.7 on FreeBSD? We need to raise the profile substantially to bring more coders to our effort, and that will only happen if we attract more USERS to our platform, even if it isn't perfect yet. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 10:30:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E73E14EAB for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:30:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09649; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:29:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com, brett@lariat.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Swan song In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:19:46 EST." <199903261519.KAA01629@y.dyson.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:29:43 -0800 Message-ID: <9647.922472983@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You know, John, this invective about "boneheaded marketing" is starting to piss me off, and mostly because I never got spit in the way of logistical support from you when it comes to marketing this product - you talk a good fight, but when it comes time to actually "fight" you run away, citing a lack of ability at writing or speaking or, if you're feeling especially cagey, the fact that you "can't talk about your work." That's all pure bunkum, however, in light of the fact that you don't need to violate a single Oracle NDA to give a paper at OSDI or the USENIX technical conference on what you've done with FreeBSD's VM system, for example, or to write about it for Dr. Dobbs Journal if you're feeling less inclined to face the crowds. Either way, it's something that a lot of people have asked for and a frequent criticism of the FreeBSD project that nobody will either document or talk publically about the "behind the scenes" work that goes on in FreeBSD's design and implementation. If not you, who else? What about all this "G2" stuff you're working on, where's the PR campaign for that? I haven't gotten so much as a single _white paper_ out of you, John, and as far as I'm concerned you haven't got one shred of "moral authority" when it comes to judging our PR efforts in public like you have. Either start putting up here or confine your barking to a topic in which you've actually shown yourself willing to directly contribute. To do otherwise only pisses those people who *ARE* attempting to do something, anything, regardless of whether anyone else thinks it's "enough" or not. At least we're doing something tangible, a characteristic you yourself would do well to emulate before you fire off your next quiver of arrows in this forum. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 10:58:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD10514CC2 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:58:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA10615; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:57:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990326130833.00ad6680@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:57:28 -0500 To: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: Development Projects (was:Re: FreeBSD emulation for linux) In-Reply-To: <36FBCB8F.AA2C817E@thuntek.net> References: <199903261028.FAA00745@y.dyson.net> <4.1.19990326122654.018f8430@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald, I think you may have the cart before the horse. To attract more Java users to FreeBSD, the JDK needs to improve substantially. The average Java user is not interested in helping a platform become better, they are interested in platforms that run their apps well right now. I personally wouldn't recommend increasing the visibility of FreeBSD's JDK until it improves - timing is important here because increasing the visibility before it's ready will just leave a bad lasting impression. I don't want to dampen enthusiasm for the JDK on FreeBSD; I really hope it continues to improve and becomes a competitive product because I think the combination of FreeBSD and a competitive JDK is powerful. I just called TowerJ to inquire about their product. When I asked if they were planning on porting their product to FreeBSD, he said they were, but didn't give a time frame. He did say that they've received a lot of requests to do so. Unfortunately, their product is fairly expensive; however, if you combine their pricy product with a nicely priced FreeBSD, you will still have a very competitive Java platform. Brian At 11:01 AM 3/26/99 -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >Brian, would you commit to writing a) a blurb to be sent to DDJ and >others about the new release of 1.1.7, and b) an article showcasing the >new release developments of JDK1.1.7 on FreeBSD? > >We need to raise the profile substantially to bring more coders to our >effort, and that will only happen if we attract more USERS to our >platform, even if it isn't perfect yet. >-- >Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" >Wilde Media >1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 >Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 11:15:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4A214C97 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:15:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02869; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:14:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:14:49 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Wes Peters Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-Reply-To: <36FAD8AE.7008CE38@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > Donald Wilde wrote: > > > > Licia wrote: > > > > > > where it could be used to induce vendors to recognize FreeBSD? (i.e. 'label > > > your product as FreeBSD Compatible/whatever and we can give you a small > > > banner, for x number of views?' Please no flames, I know people hate banners, > > Licia, flames only mean that you're making people think. ;^) > Unfortunately the things they're thinking when they flame me, I don't want to encourage! ;) > I don't hate banners as long as they download in a reasonably small time. > This might actually come true, now that USWest and TCI are racing to see > who gets to my house first, with DSL or Cable Modem support... > I don't personally -like- banners, but I think that it would be a sort of 'premium' the project could use to entice 'major' vendors to give us support. For example, Oracle, IBM with their DB2 for Linux, Gateway, etc. to give us support we want from them. I don't propose offering a banner to every software house who offers to support FreeBSD, and I would sugest placing a firm limit on the number/placement of any banners, but I do think this is a powerful resource that could be used to sway those who are close to the edge :) > > > but I do think it's a significant enough source of influence, especially as > > > targeted as it is, to be of use in promoting FreeBSD.) > > > > > We're going to do a LOT more on the branding issue, including more > > visibility for our commercial supporters. We're not ashamed that FreeBSD > > can be used to make money and we'll all benefit, although homepage > > banners probably won't fly. More likely clickthrough logos on the > > revamped gallery section. > > We had originally discussed an entire web section for branded products, > with click-through to their site(s), to cross-advertise the availability > of FreeBSD branded products. We would offer this page as a target for > their products sites as well. I imagine FreeBSD Mall will be very > interested in carrying commercial products that are FreeBSD branded as > well, if suitable financial arrangements can be agreed upon. > I think that is a good idea as well. Not what I meant by banner, but still a very good idea. Would there be any interest in a similar section for freeware authors who support FreeBSD and apply the branding to their efforts? [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 11:19: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A15B150D8 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:19:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-139.thuntek.net [207.66.52.139]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id MAA22674; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:18:33 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FBDD6E.364F0D27@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:18:06 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Licia Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Licia wrote: > > I think that is a good idea as well. Not what I meant by banner, but still a > very good idea. Would there be any interest in a similar section for freeware > authors who support FreeBSD and apply the branding to their efforts? > Of course, and recognition too! -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 11:26:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58CD214D5B for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:26:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (mustang.lariat.org [206.100.185.11]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07157; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:26:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990326122524.044a45d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:26:13 -0700 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Swan song Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990325203830.00a2b440@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:21 AM 3/26/99 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >Sorry to say this Brett as I've never really took offence in yer mails as >some did, but it's time to quit yer moaning and bitchin' and start doing >something. I am. I'm leaving. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 11:28:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07DE14C1B for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:28:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14616; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:57:37 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:57:37 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Swan song Message-ID: <19990326075737.A13791@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <85720.922223339@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.2.0.32.19990325203830.00a2b440@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990325203830.00a2b440@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Mar 25, 1999 at 09:43:54PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett, On Thu, Mar 25, 1999 at 09:43:54PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > As for the specific project I most recently proposed: I still firmly > believe that making other platforms emulate FreeBSD -- NOT the > other way around -- is the only tactic which can save FreeBSD from being > smothered by Linux. If FreeBSD does not establish itself as the ABI and > API of choice, it will die -- its best code co-opted and released under > the GPL as part of Linux, the rest discarded due to an insufficient > user base to keep up with Linux's progress. Then for God's sake just go and *do* it. You don't need my blessing, Jordan's blessing, or anyone else's blessing. Just go and *do* it. If you can't do it, and you can't get anyone else to do it for you, then you're going to *have* to wake up to the fact that in volunteer projects like this people will work on what they want, and it doesn't matter how much someone shouts at them to do something different. I still haven't seen you post a URL to a webpage that outlines why this would be a good idea to a forum like -hackers, or -current, where it would at least attract the technical people who *might* be able to implement it for you. Unless and until you do something like that, it just looks as if you're whining. I don't care what your motivations are, it *looks* like you're whining. That's a very effective way to annoy people, as you've discovered. N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 12:40:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD5014D21 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:34:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03116; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:32:05 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:32:04 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Mark Ovens Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-Reply-To: <36FB92CA.187A0C3@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > Licia wrote: > > > > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > > The install process registration has made me wonder too. Would it be possibl > > > e > > > > perhaps to offer a "print this out and mail it in" registration for people > > > > > > The registration process everyone is currently seeing now really need > > > to be ripped out and replaced. Why? Several reasons. > > > > > > One, as you've noted, there's no way to do the registration when you > > > haven't got email set up yet; a good percentage of the registrations > > > we get are actually bounced back by freebsd.org's spam filter, which > > > doesn't deal with sites without proper DNS. When you've set the > > > machine up before the DNS entry, as many do, that's clearly not going > > > to work. > > > > > > Secondly there's the fact that email, even though clearly imperfect, > > > is the only way to go. We don't deal well with web site registration > > > (at least not in a way which weeds/prevents duplicates or allows > > > someone to change their existing entries) and we don't allow people to > > > postal mail their stuff in to some counter person. > > > > > > The idea of having people register at installation time is a good one, > > > don't get me wrong, but my initial "proof of concept implementation" > > > there is clearly showing many cracks now. Who'd like to take over > > > registration at this stage? > > > > > > - Jordan > > > > > > > Would you be interested in the possibility of a standalone TCP registration > > server? A simple protocol could be used to create/edit/delete registrations. > > With a simple whois style 'handle' system and basic authentication it would be > > possible to allowe users to maintain their own entries in the system, with > > virtually no added effort from staff or such. I'd personally also like to see > > the possibility of users snail mailing in their registrations, if they simply > > have no way of getting online to do it as well. > > > > If you decide to run with this idea then may I make a couple of > suggestions? > > 1) When designing the registration form (whether it's a printed > form to go with the CDs or an ASCII file for printing out) > then please don't forget that FreeBSD has an international user > base and non-US addresses often don't fit well into a US-style > address template. > This is a good point. I run into this problem now and then with various applications I've worked on, and a similar problem with phone numbers. I'm not much of an international person though. Can you show me a simple template for addresses and phone numbers that will work clearly and simply for US and international users? If so, even if this project isn't approved, I'll incorporated those templates into other things I work on :) > 2) To encourage more people to complete and send in the form why > not try and get volunteers to handle the forms in their country? > This would spread the workload and should hopefully more people > would send the forms in because they wouldn't have the inconvenience > of having to go to the post office to find the cost of mailing to > the US. The volunteer could then enter the details from the forms > onto the registration database on behalf of the non-connected > users. > I personally think this would be a Good Idea. Would that person accept responsibility for snail mailing confirmation back to the user with their 'FreeBSD Handle' for future reference? I could handle doing so in the US, with no difficulty if need be... > Before you ask, yes I am volunteering to do this for the UK (and > Western Europe if necessary) > (applauding!) > OK it's not a great contribution to the project, but every little bit > helps, or so they say. > I personally think it's a good contribution, and if this project works out could be a benefit to the entire community... Imagine actually having better numbers as to how many people are installing FreeBSD, and on how many computers :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 12:41:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7676614FA5 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:39:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03169; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:39:21 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:39:21 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Zippy Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This sounds like a good idea but personally, I worry about the expense... if each premium were to cost 10 cents, and there were 200,000 registrations, then -just- the cost of the premiums would run $20,000... and I have a feeling there are a bit more than 200,000 people out there using FreeBSD ;) On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Zippy wrote: > I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, too, but it just means I'm causing > people to think, right? :) > > One thing that I've noticed about product registrations: people are more > likely to DO it if there's an incentive. 3Com did it with their Palm > Pilots; if you registered, you got a gift. Would it be possible to do the > same thing with FreeBSD? > > Things I'm thinking might work: a sticker or two (if we want really > low-cost incentives), the next release at a discount, etc. I'm thinking > that there could be a registration postcard in the WC distribution, and > there could be a notice at the installation as well. > > If we were to go with the discounted future release, this may have an > overall POSITIVE effect: those customers who register after *downloading* > the install might be more likely to PAY for the discounted next release > ("hey, it's cheaper, it's a one-time deal, and I like having the CD's!"), > thereby adding to WC's sales. > > Of course, there are downsides: the obvious cost of hte incentive, and the > hidden costs: we'd need people to enter in registration information that > came via snail-mail, database maintainers, etc. > > Just something to think about... > > SB > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 12:48: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09C1E14FA5 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:43:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03188; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:42:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:42:53 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Donald Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-Reply-To: <36FBDD6E.364F0D27@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > Licia wrote: > > > > > I think that is a good idea as well. Not what I meant by banner, but still a > > very good idea. Would there be any interest in a similar section for freeware > > authors who support FreeBSD and apply the branding to their efforts? > > > Of course, and recognition too! > Hmm other than recognition, perhaps a channel to announce completed projects, projects needing testers, etc would be useful. One of my biggest frustration in writing applications for FreeBSD has always been the difficulty in finding people interested or at least willing to -use- the application to help test it...or even a comment about whether or not they are interested. I'd personally love to be able to post a "Would anyone like to see this done for FreeBSD" type message, and get feedback on it. Even simple yes or no answers, would help a developer plan their time better, and for people like me, time is much more precious than money... Help me save time, and I'll love you forever :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 12:54:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B6F14D5B for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:54:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id PAA18946; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:54:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xma018580; Fri, 26 Mar 99 15:53:18 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:53:07 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-reply-to: To: Licia Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yup, I understand and agree. This is why I suggested offering a discount on WC CD-ROM purchases. This way, WC would be bearing the "expense", but at the benefit of selling more CD-ROMs, which increases their profits. It's a way of encouraging more sales by offering a discount that doesn't eat into profits too much, and targeting groups that already have a strong interest in the product. I'm not suggesting that I know anything about WC's profit structure; this is all hypothetical for purposes of discussion. SB On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Licia wrote: > > This sounds like a good idea but personally, I worry about the expense... if > each premium were to cost 10 cents, and there were 200,000 registrations, then > -just- the cost of the premiums would run $20,000... and I have a feeling > there are a bit more than 200,000 people out there using FreeBSD ;) > > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Zippy wrote: > > I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, too, but it just means I'm causing > > people to think, right? :) > > > > One thing that I've noticed about product registrations: people are more > > likely to DO it if there's an incentive. 3Com did it with their Palm > > Pilots; if you registered, you got a gift. Would it be possible to do the > > same thing with FreeBSD? > > > > Things I'm thinking might work: a sticker or two (if we want really > > low-cost incentives), the next release at a discount, etc. I'm thinking > > that there could be a registration postcard in the WC distribution, and > > there could be a notice at the installation as well. > > > > If we were to go with the discounted future release, this may have an > > overall POSITIVE effect: those customers who register after *downloading* > > the install might be more likely to PAY for the discounted next release > > ("hey, it's cheaper, it's a one-time deal, and I like having the CD's!"), > > thereby adding to WC's sales. > > > > Of course, there are downsides: the obvious cost of hte incentive, and the > > hidden costs: we'd need people to enter in registration information that > > came via snail-mail, database maintainers, etc. > > > > Just something to think about... > > > > SB > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] > [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] > [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] > > main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 13: 4: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 371FF14A14 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:02:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA03274; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:00:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:00:43 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Zippy Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ahh, sort of like a coupon for registering? It would be interesting to hear WC's thoughts on the subject... I wonder if it could be done such that the discount is attractive/encouraging but still allows WC a profit on that unit? On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Zippy wrote: > Yup, I understand and agree. This is why I suggested offering a discount > on WC CD-ROM purchases. This way, WC would be bearing the "expense", but > at the benefit of selling more CD-ROMs, which increases their profits. > It's a way of encouraging more sales by offering a discount that doesn't > eat into profits too much, and targeting groups that already have a strong > interest in the product. > > I'm not suggesting that I know anything about WC's profit structure; this > is all hypothetical for purposes of discussion. > > > > SB > > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Licia wrote: > > > > > This sounds like a good idea but personally, I worry about the expense... if > > each premium were to cost 10 cents, and there were 200,000 registrations, then > > -just- the cost of the premiums would run $20,000... and I have a feeling > > there are a bit more than 200,000 people out there using FreeBSD ;) > > > > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Zippy wrote: > > > I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, too, but it just means I'm causing > > > people to think, right? :) > > > > > > One thing that I've noticed about product registrations: people are more > > > likely to DO it if there's an incentive. 3Com did it with their Palm > > > Pilots; if you registered, you got a gift. Would it be possible to do the > > > same thing with FreeBSD? > > > > > > Things I'm thinking might work: a sticker or two (if we want really > > > low-cost incentives), the next release at a discount, etc. I'm thinking > > > that there could be a registration postcard in the WC distribution, and > > > there could be a notice at the installation as well. > > > > > > If we were to go with the discounted future release, this may have an > > > overall POSITIVE effect: those customers who register after *downloading* > > > the install might be more likely to PAY for the discounted next release > > > ("hey, it's cheaper, it's a one-time deal, and I like having the CD's!"), > > > thereby adding to WC's sales. > > > > > > Of course, there are downsides: the obvious cost of hte incentive, and the > > > hidden costs: we'd need people to enter in registration information that > > > came via snail-mail, database maintainers, etc. > > > > > > Just something to think about... > > > > > > SB > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] > > [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] > > [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] > > > > main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} > > > > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 13:10:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524DC1532E for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:10:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-139.thuntek.net [207.66.52.139]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id OAA15335; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:10:02 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FBF791.348AAAC7@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:09:37 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Licia Cc: Zippy , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Licia wrote: > > This sounds like a good idea but personally, I worry about the expense... if > each premium were to cost 10 cents, and there were 200,000 registrations, then > -just- the cost of the premiums would run $20,000... and I have a feeling > there are a bit more than 200,000 people out there using FreeBSD ;) > Yes, but the visibility of knowing that we have 200,000 CONFIRMED users would drive enough vendors to our doorstep to double it... and so on. > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Zippy wrote: > > I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, too, but it just means I'm causing > > people to think, right? :) > > > > One thing that I've noticed about product registrations: people are more > > likely to DO it if there's an incentive. 3Com did it with their Palm > > Pilots; if you registered, you got a gift. Would it be possible to do the > > same thing with FreeBSD? > > > > Things I'm thinking might work: a sticker or two (if we want really > > low-cost incentives), the next release at a discount, etc. I'm thinking > > that there could be a registration postcard in the WC distribution, and > > there could be a notice at the installation as well. > > > > If we were to go with the discounted future release, this may have an > > overall POSITIVE effect: those customers who register after *downloading* > > the install might be more likely to PAY for the discounted next release > > ("hey, it's cheaper, it's a one-time deal, and I like having the CD's!"), > > thereby adding to WC's sales. > > > > Of course, there are downsides: the obvious cost of hte incentive, and the > > hidden costs: we'd need people to enter in registration information that > > came via snail-mail, database maintainers, etc. > > > > Just something to think about... > > > > SB > -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 13:12:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C21214E93 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id QAA29256; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xma028943; Fri, 26 Mar 99 16:11:07 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:11:03 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-reply-to: To: Licia Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG EXACTLY. Thanks for putting it into more intelligible form :) Plus, if it's done such that the discount is for the NEXT release, it could be used to boost pre-order sales, which is always a good thing. Another option (anti-DMs aren't gonna like this, but what the hell :)): the list could be used by WC to gauge interest for other product offerings. I'm not suggesting that the list be sold by WC to 3rd parties, but internally, it might be of use. This is a policy decision that needs to be negotiated between WC and the FreeBSD project folks. But if WC has interest in such a list for this purpose, they might have an interest in maintaining the list and just sending reports to the FreeBSD folks. (Is our goal to get numbers, or to get the actual contact information? If numbers, the above plan might work. WC's interest would definitely be contact information.) SB On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Licia wrote: > > Ahh, sort of like a coupon for registering? It would be interesting to hear > WC's thoughts on the subject... I wonder if it could be done such that the > discount is attractive/encouraging but still allows WC a profit on that unit? > > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Zippy wrote: > > > Yup, I understand and agree. This is why I suggested offering a discount > > on WC CD-ROM purchases. This way, WC would be bearing the "expense", but > > at the benefit of selling more CD-ROMs, which increases their profits. > > It's a way of encouraging more sales by offering a discount that doesn't > > eat into profits too much, and targeting groups that already have a strong > > interest in the product. > > > > I'm not suggesting that I know anything about WC's profit structure; this > > is all hypothetical for purposes of discussion. > > > > > > > > SB > > > > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Licia wrote: > > > > > > > > This sounds like a good idea but personally, I worry about the expense... if > > > each premium were to cost 10 cents, and there were 200,000 registrations, then > > > -just- the cost of the premiums would run $20,000... and I have a feeling > > > there are a bit more than 200,000 people out there using FreeBSD ;) > > > > > > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Zippy wrote: > > > > I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, too, but it just means I'm causing > > > > people to think, right? :) > > > > > > > > One thing that I've noticed about product registrations: people are more > > > > likely to DO it if there's an incentive. 3Com did it with their Palm > > > > Pilots; if you registered, you got a gift. Would it be possible to do the > > > > same thing with FreeBSD? > > > > > > > > Things I'm thinking might work: a sticker or two (if we want really > > > > low-cost incentives), the next release at a discount, etc. I'm thinking > > > > that there could be a registration postcard in the WC distribution, and > > > > there could be a notice at the installation as well. > > > > > > > > If we were to go with the discounted future release, this may have an > > > > overall POSITIVE effect: those customers who register after *downloading* > > > > the install might be more likely to PAY for the discounted next release > > > > ("hey, it's cheaper, it's a one-time deal, and I like having the CD's!"), > > > > thereby adding to WC's sales. > > > > > > > > Of course, there are downsides: the obvious cost of hte incentive, and the > > > > hidden costs: we'd need people to enter in registration information that > > > > came via snail-mail, database maintainers, etc. > > > > > > > > Just something to think about... > > > > > > > > SB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] > > > [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] > > > [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] > > > > > > main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} > > > > > > > > > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] > [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] > [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] > > main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 13:24:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022E614F7E for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:24:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-139.thuntek.net [207.66.52.139]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id OAA18262; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:23:43 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FBFAC7.13C15214@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:23:19 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Licia Cc: Zippy , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Licia wrote: > > Ahh, sort of like a coupon for registering? It would be interesting to hear > WC's thoughts on the subject... I wonder if it could be done such that the > discount is attractive/encouraging but still allows WC a profit on that unit? > I'm sure there's enough for a noticable discount. Even 4CD sets are inexpensive, and there's no royalty cost ;-) -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 15:10:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A4E1556F for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:10:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA28607; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA25956; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:06:27 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id QAA09027; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:06:21 -0700 Message-ID: <36FC12E0.691ECF1D@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:06:08 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Licia Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Licia wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > We had originally discussed an entire web section for branded products, > > with click-through to their site(s), to cross-advertise the availability > > of FreeBSD branded products. We would offer this page as a target for > > their products sites as well. I imagine FreeBSD Mall will be very > > interested in carrying commercial products that are FreeBSD branded as > > well, if suitable financial arrangements can be agreed upon. > > > > I think that is a good idea as well. Not what I meant by banner, but still a > very good idea. Would there be any interest in a similar section for freeware > authors who support FreeBSD and apply the branding to their efforts? In our original discussion, the products were sorted by "Native FreeBSD" vs. "Emulated", rather than price tags. A native port of Gnome would get "higher" billing than a Linux version of DB2, as it should. ;^) A relatively good example of how to do something like this is BeWare. Check out http://www.be.com and click on the BeWare link. We could offer the commercial firms additional incentives through FreeBSD Mall, giving them targeted exposure to interested buyers. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 15:14: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E7415092 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:13:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA28639; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA26048; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:11:33 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id QAA09334; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:11:22 -0700 Message-ID: <36FC140D.CCED288C@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:11:09 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Licia Cc: Mark Ovens , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Licia wrote: > > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > 2) To encourage more people to complete and send in the form why > > not try and get volunteers to handle the forms in their country? > > This would spread the workload and should hopefully more people > > would send the forms in because they wouldn't have the inconvenience > > of having to go to the post office to find the cost of mailing to > > the US. The volunteer could then enter the details from the forms > > onto the registration database on behalf of the non-connected > > users. > > I personally think this would be a Good Idea. Would that person accept > responsibility for snail mailing confirmation back to the user with their > 'FreeBSD Handle' for future reference? I could handle doing so in the US, > with no difficulty if need be... That is such a good idea, it should be integrated with the "whois" protocol. I guess we'd have to add a check box for "keep my information out of the whois database," though. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 15:37:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from corp.au.triax.com (slwag1p18.ozemail.com.au [203.108.157.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39EA814D25 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:37:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@corp.au.triax.com) Received: (from jim@localhost) by corp.au.triax.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA40868; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:36:02 +1100 (EST) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:36:01 +1100 From: Jim Mock To: Licia Cc: Mark Ovens , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? Message-ID: <19990327103601.A40738@corp.au.triax.com> Reply-To: jim@corp.au.triax.com References: <36FB92CA.187A0C3@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 at 14:32:04 -0600, Licia wrote: > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Licia wrote: [snip..] > > > Would you be interested in the possibility of a standalone TCP > > > registration server? A simple protocol could be used to > > > create/edit/delete registrations. With a simple whois style > > > 'handle' system and basic authentication it would be possible to > > > allowe users to maintain their own entries in the system, with > > > virtually no added effort from staff or such. I'd personally > > > also like to see the possibility of users snail mailing in their > > > registrations, if they simply have no way of getting online to > > > do it as well. > > > > > > > If you decide to run with this idea then may I make a couple of > > suggestions? > > > > 1) When designing the registration form (whether it's a printed > > form to go with the CDs or an ASCII file for printing out) > > then please don't forget that FreeBSD has an international user > > base and non-US addresses often don't fit well into a US-style > > address template. > > > > This is a good point. I run into this problem now and then with > various applications I've worked on, and a similar problem with > phone numbers. I'm not much of an international person though. Can > you show me a simple template for addresses and phone numbers that > will work clearly and simply for US and international users? If so, > even if this project isn't approved, I'll incorporated those > templates into other things I work on :) > All it'd really need is Zip/Postal code box that doesn't complain if it's not 5 characters (mine's only 4) and a phone number box that can handle phone numbers that don't fit the US (xxx)xxx-xxxx format. If the phone number box is just a blank line (instead of having ()'s for the area code) it should be ok. Other than that, it'd be the normal address, city, state/province type thing. Don't forget the country line either ;) > > 2) To encourage more people to complete and send in the form why > > not try and get volunteers to handle the forms in their > > country? This would spread the workload and should hopefully > > more people would send the forms in because they wouldn't have > > the inconvenience of having to go to the post office to find > > the cost of mailing to the US. The volunteer could then enter > > the details from the forms onto the registration database on > > behalf of the non-connected users. > > > > I personally think this would be a Good Idea. Would that person > accept responsibility for snail mailing confirmation back to the > user with their 'FreeBSD Handle' for future reference? I could > handle doing so in the US, with no difficulty if need be... > I agree.. I think this is an excellent idea. I'm not quite sure on the 'FreeBSD Handle' thing though.. care to elaborate on that bit? > > Before you ask, yes I am volunteering to do this for the UK > > (and Western Europe if necessary) > > > I can handle Australia.. or at least the eastern half of the country. I'm willing to do the whole thing if no one from the western end steps up to volunteer. > > OK it's not a great contribution to the project, but every little > > bit helps, or so they say. > > > > I personally think it's a good contribution, and if this project > works out could be a benefit to the entire community... Imagine > actually having better numbers as to how many people are installing > FreeBSD, and on how many computers :) > I agree.. even if it is a somewhat "small" thing to do, if it works out, the benefits could be huge. Once we get some decent numbers, they can be given to Corel, Oracle, Star Division, etc., and say "hey, we've got some good numbers here, how about a native port".. it'd definetly be a step in the right direction. -- Jim Mock System Administrator jim@corp.au.triax.com ,-._|\ FreeBSD work: Triax Internet Services http://www.triax.com/ / \ The personal: http://www.triax.com/~jim/ \_,--._/ Power To The FreeBSD 'zine http://www.freebsdzine.org/ v Serve! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 15:46: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 830E014D46 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:46:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 12093 invoked from network); 26 Mar 1999 23:45:41 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 26 Mar 1999 23:45:41 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA09609; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:45:39 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903262345.SAA09609@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Swan song In-Reply-To: <9647.922472983@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 26, 99 10:29:43 am" To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:45:39 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, bpechter@shell.monmouth.com, brett@lariat.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > You know, John, this invective about "boneheaded marketing" is > starting to piss me off, > As it should, because I would be very embarassed if I was you. > > and mostly because I never got spit in the > way of logistical support from you when it comes to marketing this > product - you talk a good fight, but when it comes time to actually > "fight" you run away, citing a lack of ability at writing or speaking > or, if you're feeling especially cagey, the fact that you "can't talk > about your work." > I cannot deal with public situations -- however you have done squat for the project in the arena of marketing. OSDI != marketing, and a good person has taken over the VM (and hopefully the VFS). > > need to violate a single Oracle NDA to give a paper at OSDI or the > USENIX technical conference on what you've done with FreeBSD's VM > system, for example, or to write about it for Dr. Dobbs Journal if > you're feeling less inclined to face the crowds. > The bonehead and silly marketing problems with FreeBSD have nothing to do with the lack of papers. The technical issues for FreeBSD haven't been where the idiocy has wasted valuable time for FreeBSD. > > Either start putting up here or confine your barking to a topic in > which you've actually shown yourself willing to directly contribute. > To do otherwise only pisses those people who *ARE* attempting to do > something, anything, regardless of whether anyone else thinks it's > "enough" or not. At least we're doing something tangible, a > characteristic you yourself would do well to emulate before you fire > off your next quiver of arrows in this forum. > I understand that your feelings might be hurt, as they should be. If I was you, I would be embarassed as to how much good will you have wasted (but not totally lost) in the community.l John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 16: 0:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14D0D14CB0 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:00:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-031.thuntek.net [207.66.52.31]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id QAA17472; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:59:57 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FC1F69.73204453@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:59:37 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jim@corp.au.triax.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: <36FB92CA.187A0C3@uk.radan.com> <19990327103601.A40738@corp.au.triax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jim Mock wrote: > > > I agree.. even if it is a somewhat "small" thing to do, if it works > out, the benefits could be huge. Once we get some decent numbers, > they can be given to Corel, Oracle, Star Division, etc., and say "hey, > we've got some good numbers here, how about a native port".. it'd > definetly be a step in the right direction. > Exactly. BTW, can we trim cc:s here? I think we're all on -advocacy. :-) -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 16: 1:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jbaugher.campus.vt.edu (jbaugher.campus.vt.edu [198.82.58.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E1E15185 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:01:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbaugher@jbaugher.campus.vt.edu) Received: by jbaugher.campus.vt.edu via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:00:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:00:45 -0500 From: Josh Baugher To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Argh... freebsd-advocacy hostility has *got* to end! Message-ID: <19990326190045.C8747@jbaugher.campus.vt.edu,> References: <9647.922472983@zippy.cdrom.com> <199903262345.SAA09609@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199903262345.SAA09609@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 06:45:39PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > You know, John, this invective about "boneheaded marketing" is > > starting to piss me off, > > > As it should, because I would be very embarassed if I was you. Man... Something has to be done about all of this hostility. As a user of both FreeBSD and Linux, I've always respected FreeBSD users much more in the area of maturity. Recently, I'm having some reservations. I don't want FreeBSD to attain the immaturity of the Linux community [as a whole]. Everybody on this list seems to be at each other's throats. We're all on the same team! :-) Josh -- Josh Baugher http://www.acm.vt.edu/~jbaugher/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 16:19:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B2B2214D6A for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:19:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 17704 invoked from network); 27 Mar 1999 00:19:10 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 27 Mar 1999 00:19:10 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA09663; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:19:08 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903270019.TAA09663@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Swan song In-Reply-To: <199903262345.SAA09609@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 26, 99 06:45:39 pm" To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:19:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, dyson@iquest.net, bpechter@shell.monmouth.com, brett@lariat.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > product - you talk a good fight, but when it comes time to actually > > "fight" you run away, citing a lack of ability at writing or speaking > > or, if you're feeling especially cagey, the fact that you "can't talk > > about your work." > > > I cannot deal with public situations -- however you have done > squat for the project in the arena of marketing. OSDI != marketing, > and a good person has taken over the VM (and hopefully the VFS). > BTW, my job was NEVER marketing. I *try* to avoid the areas where I am only minmally competent. You obviously do not avoid such areas, and are willing to "cowboy" and waste the competent works of others. The "marketing" effort was so pathetic that people who had no business in messing around in the field KNEW that it could be done better, and did try. However, the damage done by those people is directly a result of previous marketing folly, and frustration due to that folly. Some people spent years of effort (off the clock) in their area of competency, while others might have spent wasted years of effort outside their area of competency -- further wasting the effort of others. People who have high positions in a project, who don't have the competency to understand or compensate for their own areas of competency don't show project level competency at all. I was NEVER part of the offical core leadership, but had tried to communicate with the competent? youngsters. It is a wonderful situation that FreeBSD will have a chance now. Let *competent* technical people do seriously technical things, and let *competent* marketing people do marketing things. The time for the "cowboy" is over. The VM review procedure should be extended to other important subsystems, *when* excessive and/or occult damage has occurred. There isn't the freedom for "cowboy" development anymore. Sure, in the past, FreeBSD could tolerate it -- however that isn't desirable or tolerable anymore. All in all, the technical issues were never the *worst* problem for FreeBSD -- again, it was the marketing. It is too bad that so much damage was done, and waste ensued. I have a couple of megs of source diffs right now, that were produced before I left. The risk of adding that code without review was intolerable, and the need to move from "cowboy" mode was critical. I was working on a review infrastructure, but that kind of behavior was not respected in core. Also, I was working on putting together a forward looking effort, but core doesn't respect that either. With the attitude that FreeBSD currently has, it will always be a monolithic BSD kernel technologists project. That is fine, but not adequate in the 5yr timeframe. In that arena, Linux will likely win -- without seriously glitzy marketing and sales efforts on the part of FreeBSD. The new marketing person is a chance for FreeBSD to avoid being a dot-item on a U**X timeline. It does seem that certain people in core is slowly realizing the previous folly, and will slowly (hopefully quickly) fix the problems. However, there has been lots of wasted time. There had been almost NO forward thinking in the past. When I left, many things pretty much froze -- and now the "cowboy" phase that I was trying to graduate beyond is beckoning again. That has to be managed, but seems to be too much for the core leadership. (I suspect that more experienced core members might see this problem.) The key to saving the project from "cowboy" development is to create a development structure. There has been *some* progress, but is inadequate, or dysfunctional so far. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 16:45: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4806514C3D for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:43:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 11681 invoked from network); 27 Mar 1999 00:43:35 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 27 Mar 1999 00:43:35 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id TAA01919; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:43:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903270043.TAA01919@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Argh... freebsd-advocacy hostility has *got* to end! In-Reply-To: <19990326190045.C8747@jbaugher.campus.vt.edu,> from Josh Baugher at "Mar 26, 99 07:00:45 pm" To: jbaugher@vt.edu (Josh Baugher) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:43:33 -0500 (EST) Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Josh Baugher said: > > > You know, John, this invective about "boneheaded marketing" is > > > starting to piss me off, > > > > > As it should, because I would be very embarassed if I was you. > > Man... Something has to be done about all of this hostility. > When someone has spent multiple years of work, and seen it frittered away, things can be a little heated. Being upfront now isn't condemning to the project anymore -- the problem is solved... There is hope... -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 16:54:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96EFE14D48 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:54:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id BAA53170; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 01:53:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: remy@synx.com Cc: wes@softweyr.com, marko@uk.radan.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI' References: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 27 Mar 1999 02:53:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: Remy Nonnenmacher's message of "Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:00:02 +0100 (CET)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Remy Nonnenmacher writes: > Right. "... prefers it [FreeBSD] to ....". Babelfish have problems with > anything more complicated than 'peter heats apples' ;). /me rotfl :) (sorry guys, you have to be French to understand the joke) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 17: 8: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85BF15105 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:08:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10900; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:07:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Licia Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:49:27 CST." Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:07:15 -0800 Message-ID: <10898.922496835@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [We now return to our regularly scheduled productive advocacy in this list] > Would you be interested in the possibility of a standalone TCP registration > server? A simple protocol could be used to create/edit/delete registrations. > With a simple whois style 'handle' system and basic authentication it would b I think it's more than worth trying, let's put it that way. We'd need to have not just the server but a couple of "front ends" done so we could test it, but that's probably no biggie. Then there's also the 45,000 or so previous registration entries which we'd want to merge. Each registration record looks basically like this: John Smith jsmith@yahoo.com
123 Any street, #321
Anytown USA 98765-321 3.1-RELEASE It's not ideal since it contains no real "demographic information" other than what release they were running at the time that the registration form was filled out, but we do have over 45,000 of these guys now and should probably do something with them. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 17:17:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B7314C12 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:17:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10974; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:16:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Licia Cc: Zippy , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:00:43 CST." Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:16:35 -0800 Message-ID: <10972.922497395@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Ahh, sort of like a coupon for registering? It would be interesting to hear > WC's thoughts on the subject... I wonder if it could be done such that the > discount is attractive/encouraging but still allows WC a profit on that unit? I think the key here would be whether or not the registration form were collecting the kind of information of true market value to Walnut Creek CDROM. If so, I don't think I'd have any trouble convincing them to mail out discount coupons good against future product purchases to those who provide a postal address and other useful demographic information. The question is simply what the superset of that information is going to be - I've never written such a questionnaire and am honestly not that sure what I'd put on it. It's something we could probably work out offline with WC, however. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 19: 2:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB771509E for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:02:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-059.thuntek.net [207.66.52.59]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id UAA15406; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:01:58 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FC4A15.F2EE94CB@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:01:41 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: <10898.922496835@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > [We now return to our regularly scheduled productive advocacy in this list] > great! John seems to be back in human form too. He posted a great explanation of the VM for me. > > Would you be interested in the possibility of a standalone TCP registration > > server? A simple protocol could be used to create/edit/delete registrations. > > With a simple whois style 'handle' system and basic authentication it would b > > I think it's more than worth trying, let's put it that way. We'd need > to have not just the server but a couple of "front ends" done so we > could test it, but that's probably no biggie. Then there's also the > 45,000 or so previous registration entries which we'd want to merge. > Each registration record looks basically like this: > > > John > Smith > jsmith@yahoo.com >
123 Any street, #321
> Anytown > USA > 98765-321 > options> > 3.1-RELEASE > > basic DB stuff. Only concern will be in keeping the db from barfing on the incomplete records. > It's not ideal since it contains no real "demographic information" > other than what release they were running at the time that the > registration form was filled out, but we do have over 45,000 of these > guys now and should probably do something with them. :) That ain't hay, considering as it's probably about 5% of our installed base. Perhaps we could use the 'handle' like a cookie and have John Polstra add to our database when people CVSup to -STABLE? Almost every machine has to be CVSup'd individually, that might give us a more accurate count of the numbers. My lights are flickering in the thunderstorm. I may disappear in the arms of the blue flashes... -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 19: 8:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C06615174 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:08:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-059.thuntek.net [207.66.52.59]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id UAA15872; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:07:41 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FC4B6D.A96D860B@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:07:25 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a "how did you hear about us?" form on www.freebsd.org? References: <10972.922497395@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ruthlessly trimming cc:s, everybody's on -advocacy] Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Ahh, sort of like a coupon for registering? It would be interesting to hear > > WC's thoughts on the subject... I wonder if it could be done such that the > > discount is attractive/encouraging but still allows WC a profit on that unit? > > I think the key here would be whether or not the registration form > were collecting the kind of information of true market value to Walnut > Creek CDROM. If so, I don't think I'd have any trouble convincing > them to mail out discount coupons good against future product > purchases to those who provide a postal address and other useful > demographic information. The question is simply what the superset of > that information is going to be - I've never written such a > questionnaire and am honestly not that sure what I'd put on it. It's > something we could probably work out offline with WC, however. Let's make this and other incentives a priority to talk about with Christopher and Bob when I show up, Jordan. (10:10AM on the 7th in Oakland, SWA flt 722) By that time, Licia will have explored things from the technical viewpoint, and maybe have something to play with. (Whee!) -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 19: 9: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1F6151AF for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:08:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id VAA14847; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:08:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:08:37 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Swan song In-Reply-To: <199903270019.TAA09663@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don't stand in judgement of another, lest you also stand and be judged yourself. I for one, applaud Jordan's efforts! Jordan stood up and did what very few (if any) others were willing to do. In the minds of some he may not have done the best of jobs, but who are you to stand in judgement of him for doing something which you were unwilling or unable to do yourselves. Hurt feelings, spent relationships, or whatever you choose to call what has prompted the last couple of messages DO NOT belong on this list. If you or anyone else has a personal diatribe which you feel compelled to make, please take it and its participants somewhere else, so the rest of us can get back to doing useful work which someone will later claim to be crap, despite the fact they couldn't or wouldn't step forward to do it themselves. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 21:51:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 271B61517E; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:51:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id XAA20953; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:50:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:50:55 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: freebsd-java@freebsd.org Cc: Brian Adkins , Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: A BSD-licensed JIT (was Re: Development Projects) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990326130833.00ad6680@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Please forgive the cross-post. This started on advocacy, but should really be moved to java. For those on the advocacy list that want to follow it over please do. Anyone that replies please remove advocacy from the cc: line before hitting send.] I've had about all of this I can stand. I've read the JIT docs and seen the size of the tarballs to a couple of JITs. Not trying to trivialize in anyway what it takes to write a really good JIT, but I want one under a BSD-style license and I think we can get something workable in a reasonable amount of time. Anyone out there care to either: a) Approach one of the GPL'd JITs and ask for a BSD-style licensed release. b) Help me write one from scratch. I sure I'm going to regret saying this, but writing a JIT (IMHO) has to be easier to write than a FreeBSD emulator for Linux. :) Comments/suggestions/code? -steve On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, Brian Adkins wrote: # Donald, # I think you may have the cart before the horse. To attract more Java # users to FreeBSD, the JDK needs to improve substantially. The average Java # user is not interested in helping a platform become better, they are # interested in platforms that run their apps well right now. I personally # wouldn't recommend increasing the visibility of FreeBSD's JDK until it # improves - timing is important here because increasing the visibility # before it's ready will just leave a bad lasting impression. # I don't want to dampen enthusiasm for the JDK on FreeBSD; I really hope # it continues to improve and becomes a competitive product because I think # the combination of FreeBSD and a competitive JDK is powerful. # I just called TowerJ to inquire about their product. When I asked if # they were planning on porting their product to FreeBSD, he said they were, # but didn't give a time frame. He did say that they've received a lot of # requests to do so. Unfortunately, their product is fairly expensive; # however, if you combine their pricy product with a nicely priced FreeBSD, # you will still have a very competitive Java platform. # # Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 26 23:50:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAC714CE5 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:50:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.79]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA2D51; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:50:01 +0100 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA71727; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:51:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199903270043.TAA01919@y.dyson.net> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:51:01 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: Argh... freebsd-advocacy hostility has *got* to end! Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, (Josh Baugher) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 27-Mar-99 John S. Dyson wrote: > Josh Baugher said: >> > > You know, John, this invective about "boneheaded marketing" is >> > > starting to piss me off, >> > > >> > As it should, because I would be very embarassed if I was you. >> >> Man... Something has to be done about all of this hostility. >> > When someone has spent multiple years of work, and seen it frittered > away, things can be a little heated. Being upfront now isn't condemning > to the project anymore -- the problem is solved... There is hope... At least it shows what people really think about where the Project ought to be going... That's refreshing, aside from the snipe remarks offcourse... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The idea does not replace the work... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 27 0:28:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B1CC14D7A for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:28:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 1761 invoked from network); 27 Mar 1999 08:28:17 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 27 Mar 1999 08:28:17 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id DAA02204; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 03:28:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903270828.DAA02204@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Swan song In-Reply-To: from Steve Price at "Mar 26, 99 09:08:37 pm" To: sprice@hiwaay.net (Steve Price) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 03:28:15 -0500 (EST) Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Steve Price said: > > Don't stand in judgement of another, lest you also stand and > be judged yourself. > I agree -- and it is JKH who personalizes the issue. The marketing was silly and klutzy. It has nothing to do with the idea that it was he was trying to do it. Note the personal and named attack recently started from him. Note the change of subject from "marketing" to "technical presentation", where "technical presentation" was never the marketing weak spot. "You too" arguments don't solve problems. The key is for FreeBSD to review what is necessary for success, and solve the problems that might continue to hurt. (Note the private comments that I have been getting when bringing these issues up, and the other "interesting" private comments when I quit.) The project has lost very very interesting customers, users, and developers due to project leadership reasons. The politicing has been about as effective as a confused virgin on his/her first "date." > > Hurt feelings, spent relationships, or whatever you choose to > call what has prompted the last couple of messages DO NOT belong > on this list. > I agree, but the wasted effort of the FreeBSD project does belong in the public arena. Incompetent project mgmt that shows a disrespect for the work of others does also. 1) It is time for FreeBSD to graduate from cowboy mode in marketing. 2) It is time for FreeBSD to graduate from cowboy mode in development. Item 1 is being solved, and item 2 causes the project to continue to be at risk. Every position that I have taken shows an interest in FreeBSD continuing -- however arrogance and the mistakes associated with incompetence seems to have held the project back in many ways. Learn from previous mistakes!!! It has been over 2-3 yrs that the mess ups have been easily identified. The marketing has been limited to "OSDI" and other silly (from a marketing standpoint) ventures? Of course that is only the smallest and insignificant part of the marketing. It is only happenstance that certain people have adopted the use of FreeBSD, and the normal growth associated with successful deployment has been continually mishandled from a marketing perspective. Luckily there have been "technical" presentations, but marketing isn't "that." Geesh, I was NOT about to give away the strategies in the VM code, and still won't give away any tools. It is still entertaining to see the competition fumble with tweak-city VM code. (I watch the other kernel mailing lists also, and they just don't "get it.") Does JKH want me to give away any of the technical advantage for FreeBSD? That is what he implies by me giving papers on the FreeBSD codebase, and continues to show that he doesn't "get it." If success wasn't handed to FreeBSD, and then fumbled, then my case would be a *little* weaker. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 27 1: 4:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8B714E14 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 01:04:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15356; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 01:03:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: sprice@hiwaay.net (Steve Price), advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Swan song In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 27 Mar 1999 03:28:15 EST." <199903270828.DAA02204@y.dyson.net> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 01:03:55 -0800 Message-ID: <15354.922525435@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We agree that these arguments are a waste of time, at least. Let's just move on. The past is dead and buried. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 27 3:30:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.svr.pol.co.uk (mail5.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD1614BF6 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 03:30:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsm@acm.org) Received: from modem-16.indium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.24.16] helo=valis.goatsucker.org) by mail5.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10QrII-0003Ar-00 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:30:27 +0000 Received: (from scott@localhost) by valis.goatsucker.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) id VAA01295; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:03:45 GMT (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <19990324210345.06372@goatsucker.org> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:03:45 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: dg@root.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Enough already! (was Re: Netscape browser) References: <19990323111945.51440@goatsucker.org> <199903232218.OAA22207@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199903232218.OAA22207@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 02:18:58PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 23, 1999 at 02:18:58PM -0800, David Greenman wrote: > >On Mon, Mar 22, 1999 at 06:20:49PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >> It looks as if any attempt to spur advocacy for, or promotion of, FreeBSD > >> is doomed to failure in this group. No wonder FreeBSD is falling into > >> obscurity while Linux crushes everything in sight. > > > >One might argue that "FreeBSD is falling into obscurity" because we all -- > >with a few notable exceptions -- sit around here bitching about it rather > >than doing anything to remedy the situation. And Brett, you're as guilty > >of all talk, no action as anybody; witness the amount of effort you've put > >into this thread, repeating the same arguments a million times. > > I don't see how anyone can credibly argue that FreeBSD, an operating system > that is still growing its userbase exponentially each year, is "falling into > obscurity". I just don't see that in the numbers - quite the opposite, > actually. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project Eeek! I hope you didn't think I was trying to argue that....just noting that that's the impression you'd get after three days of wading through this thread :( I see no evidence that FreeBSD is going to curl up its toes and die anytime soon. Apologies for any confusion caused there. Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 27 4:14:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98F514E13 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 04:14:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18000; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:10:27 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:10:26 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Steve Price Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Swan song Message-ID: <19990327081026.A17453@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <199903270019.TAA09663@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Steve Price on Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 09:08:37PM -0600 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 09:08:37PM -0600, Steve Price wrote: > Hurt feelings, spent relationships, or whatever you choose to > call what has prompted the last couple of messages DO NOT belong > on this list. If you or anyone else has a personal diatribe > which you feel compelled to make, please take it and its > participants somewhere else, so the rest of us can get back to > doing useful work which someone will later claim to be crap, > despite the fact they couldn't or wouldn't step forward to do > it themselves. I have nothing worthwhile to say, but the above bears repeating, so I just did. N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 27 5:46:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cs1.cityscope.net (cs1.cityscope.net [206.222.183.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1247615119 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 05:46:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ingrid@cityscope.net) Received: from cityscope.net (194.cityscope.net [209.16.49.194]) by cs1.cityscope.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA15465; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:46:25 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36FCE161.BB80283C@cityscope.net> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:47:13 -0600 From: Ingrid Kast Fuller Reply-To: ingrid@cityscope.net Organization: CityScope Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josh Baugher Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Argh... freebsd-advocacy hostility has *got* to end! References: <9647.922472983@zippy.cdrom.com> <199903262345.SAA09609@dyson.iquest.net> <19990326190045.C8747@jbaugher.campus.vt.edu,> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Josh Baugher wrote: > > As it should, because I would be very embarassed if I was you. > > Man... Something has to be done about all of this hostility. > > As a user of both FreeBSD and Linux, I've always respected FreeBSD > users much more in the area of maturity. Recently, I'm having some > reservations. I don't want FreeBSD to attain the immaturity of the > Linux community [as a whole]. > > Everybody on this list seems to be at each other's throats. > > We're all on the same team! :-) Hey guys.... take a chill pill! Let's be positive! Let's start ADVOCATING FreeBSD and getting the word out. Invite those Linux guys to your meetings, hey I'm a "converted Linux user" myself. Also converted from SCO Unix and CTIX. Does anyone remember CTIX (Convergent's Unix)? ;^) *********************************************************** Ingrid Kast Fuller (ingrid@cityscope.net) CityScope Computer Services Since 1984 CityScope Net (http://www.cityscope.net) 1(713)477-6161 109 West Southmore, Pasadena, TX 77502-1001 *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 27 8:48:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D439D14E2B for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:48:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 32C1534DA; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:44:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:44:33 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Logo merchandise Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There has been a thred on -chat about the FreeBSD mugs and posters, and their possible return. I would like to see bumper stickers and license plate frames. If I'm not mistaken, Red Hat includes a bumper sticker in every box and the magazine Linux Journal sells "Powered by Linux" license plate frames. I love the FreeBSD decals (I have two on my PalmIII and five on my monitor) but would love to see the "Powered by FreeBSD" enlarged for use on a vehicle. A simple license plate frame with the URL on top and "Powered by FreeBSD" would also look great. Eric Wayte Database Administrator University of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 27 12:20:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A30F14EF9 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 12:20:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-150.thuntek.net [207.66.52.150]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id NAA25434; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:20:06 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FD3D79.2F4DC292@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:20:09 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Wayte Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Logo merchandise References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Those are high on my list as well, all of them. Christopher Mann and I will be working on that, and Bob will accomodate us as we succeed in getting the graphics done. Who all has CYMK TIFF graphics separation capability and knows how to use it? I do (Corel 8), but I'm a fumbler when it comes to artistic flair (not counting code ;-)) -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 27 14: 6:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.59.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8891914BED for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:06:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: from confusion.net (dialup-1-41.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.42.50]) by sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04529; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:06:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36FD560C.47F636AF@confusion.net> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:05:01 -0500 From: Laurence Berland Organization: B.R.A.T.T. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Wayte Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Logo merchandise References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG While we're talking about the other promotional goods, how's about some T-SHirts that are black instead of white? I hate white t-shirts but i'd love to get a FreeBSD shirt. Eric Wayte wrote: > There has been a thred on -chat about the FreeBSD mugs and posters, and > their possible return. I would like to see bumper stickers and license > plate frames. If I'm not mistaken, Red Hat includes a bumper sticker in > every box and the magazine Linux Journal sells "Powered by Linux" license > plate frames. > > I love the FreeBSD decals (I have two on my PalmIII and five on my > monitor) but would love to see the "Powered by FreeBSD" enlarged for use > on a vehicle. A simple license plate frame with the URL on top and > "Powered by FreeBSD" would also look great. > > Eric Wayte > Database Administrator > University of Central Florida > ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Laurence Berland, Stuyvesant HS Debate <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Windows 98: n. useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. http://stuy.debate.net icq #7434346 aol imer E1101 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 27 21: 6:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9524115238 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:06:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-131.thuntek.net [207.66.52.131]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id WAA07717; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:06:17 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FDB839.C67BE263@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:03:53 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Laurence Berland Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Logo merchandise References: <36FD560C.47F636AF@confusion.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It takes a _lot_ more ink to do a black one, but I agree it's worth it for the effect. You'll pay $20 instead of $16 to get one? I would too. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 27 21:29:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [208.138.36.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0539152AB for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:29:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id VAA36628; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:29:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:29:24 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Donald Wilde Cc: Laurence Berland , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Logo merchandise Message-ID: <19990327212924.E36041@001101.zer0.org> References: <36FD560C.47F636AF@confusion.net> <36FDB839.C67BE263@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <36FDB839.C67BE263@thuntek.net>; from Donald Wilde on Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 10:03:53PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 10:03:53PM -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: > > > It takes a _lot_ more ink to do a black one, but I agree it's worth it > for the effect. You'll pay $20 instead of $16 to get one? I would too. I wouldn't. $4 more just to have the shirt black? Dye is cheap. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Black holes were created mailto:gsutter@pobox.com when God divided by zero. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 27 21:45:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A99314F44 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:45:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-131.thuntek.net [207.66.52.131]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id WAA12536; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:45:13 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FDC158.9E390856@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:42:48 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Logo merchandise References: <36FD560C.47F636AF@confusion.net> <36FDB839.C67BE263@thuntek.net> <19990327212924.E36041@001101.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We'll see. I do want to make black shirts, whatever the cost. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message