From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 15 19:49:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from copland.udel.edu (copland.udel.edu [128.175.13.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B440815418; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:49:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from papalia@UDel.Edu) Received: from morgaine (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by copland.udel.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA24662; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:49:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19991215224130.009ed100@mail.udel.edu> X-Sender: papalia@mail.udel.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:49:43 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: John Subject: Need to justify FreeBSD vs. Win2K Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey all, I've been helping my old boss to design a WAN for the company. What it will consist of is three offices connected by Frame Relay. All main servers centralized to one office, the other two to be remote. The remote offices will have fileservers/routers. The main office will have: - Mail server - Router - Existing AIX-based box - Possibly web server - Firewall (separate machine). - A single NT machine for a proprietary software package - simple client/server architecture. All communication with it will be IP based. Simply put, my plans were to make all severs FreeBSD, with the exception of the one machin that HAS to be NT, and the existing AIX machine (it has a maintenance contract from the supplier on it). We're trying to make sure that all is well in the world, and today my boss comes to me and says "how about using Windows 2000 for the network?". I've been hunting high and low, but have only come up with a bunch of articles on what Win2K is SUPPOSED to do, not what it IS doing (yes, I do realize it's still in Beta). I need help justifying one against the other. Any thoughts? Here's the needs: - Ease of maintenance - GREAT stability - High security If I walk, they really don't have an IT guy. The one they have is supposed to be an "NT guru", but I had to explain to him what a hosts file is for. I don't hold much hope for him lasting long. So, the idea of support is somewhat important. My concern is that they install an MS network now, and spend an eternity doing upgrades and security patches on a monthly basis, with the every present fear of MS turning off the support (ala Win3.1 --> win95). My thougths were that with a well configured and well documented FreeBSD network, they'll be running solid until a) the first breakin, b) the first major crash, c) a security upgrade is necessary (like the recent need to update RSAREF2), or d), we're up to v.6.x-stable, and they're running 3.x-stable, and a new port comes out that they REALLY need that only runs on the newer versions. Any thoughts of how to reason this out with them, or where I might find more information? Thanks in advance, John Papalia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 15 19:58:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1813915428 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:58:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA26108; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:58:21 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.19991216045047.009cac40@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:56:43 +0100 To: John From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: Need to justify FreeBSD vs. Win2K Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991215224130.009ed100@mail.udel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >- Mail server >- Router >- Existing AIX-based box >- Possibly web server >- Firewall (separate machine). >- A single NT machine for a proprietary software package - simple >client/server architecture. All communication with it will be IP based. >Here's the needs: >- Ease of maintenance >- GREAT stability >- High security Hi! OK, here are some arguments: Mail/news servers are far more efficient on a UNIX box, NTs creeping there. Higher stability Every new product, especially Microshit, needs lotsa bugfixes and servicepacks, and you don't get them in time, and cannot fix it yourself, because of NT not being open source. FreeBSD is a mature product, with its roots being long before M$ was founded Leaner product, you only install what you need, and you got a better job of tightening security holes. NT installs just everything, and then you wonder whats up. M$ Internet Explorer shit everywhere as integral part of OS-very big leak Better performance due to leaner driver concept. Hope that helps Regards Olaf Hoyer - - - - - - - -=20 Olaf Hoyer ICQ: 22838075 mailto: Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de home: www.nightfire.de (The home of the burning CPU) Wer mit Ungeheuern k=E4mpft, mag zusehn,=20 da=DF er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund=20 auch in dich hinein. (Friedrich Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und B=F6se) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 15 20: 0: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BD2315495 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:59:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Inferno@nightfire.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA26566; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:59:50 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.19991216045047.009cac40@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Message-Id: <4.1.19991216045047.009cac40@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: Inferno@nightfire.de@post.strato.de (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:57:14 +0100 To: John From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: Need to justify FreeBSD vs. Win2K Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991215224130.009ed100@mail.udel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >- Mail server >- Router >- Existing AIX-based box >- Possibly web server >- Firewall (separate machine). >- A single NT machine for a proprietary software package - simple >client/server architecture. All communication with it will be IP based. >Here's the needs: >- Ease of maintenance >- GREAT stability >- High security Hi! OK, here are some arguments: Mail/news servers are far more efficient on a UNIX box, NTs creeping there. Higher stability Every new product, especially Microshit, needs lotsa bugfixes and servicepacks, and you don't get them in time, and cannot fix it yourself, because of NT not being open source. FreeBSD is a mature product, with its roots being long before M$ was founded Leaner product, you only install what you need, and you got a better job of tightening security holes. NT installs just everything, and then you wonder whats up. M$ Internet Explorer shit everywhere as integral part of OS-very big leak Better performance due to leaner driver concept. Hope that helps Regards Olaf Hoyer=20 ------ Olaf Hoyer ICQ: 22838075 mailto: Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de home: www.nightfire.de (The home of the burning CPU) Death be my master, my soul and saviour... (The book of inferno, chapter II) "There is no justice, there is just me", said the Reaper (Terry Pratchett) Wer mit Ungeheuern k=E4mpft, mag zusehn,=20 da=DF er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund=20 auch in dich hinein. (Friedrich Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und B=F6se) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 1: 1:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 315E814F03 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 01:01:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20464; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 01:32:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 01:32:12 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: John Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need to justify FreeBSD vs. Win2K In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991215224130.009ed100@mail.udel.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, John wrote: > Hey all, > > I've been helping my old boss to design a WAN for the company. What it > will consist of is three offices connected by Frame Relay. All main > servers centralized to one office, the other two to be remote. The remote > offices will have fileservers/routers. The main office will have: > > - Mail server > - Router > - Existing AIX-based box > - Possibly web server > - Firewall (separate machine). > - A single NT machine for a proprietary software package - simple > client/server architecture. All communication with it will be IP based. > > Simply put, my plans were to make all severs FreeBSD, with the exception of > the one machin that HAS to be NT, and the existing AIX machine (it has a > maintenance contract from the supplier on it). > > We're trying to make sure that all is well in the world, and today my boss > comes to me and says "how about using Windows 2000 for the network?". I've > been hunting high and low, but have only come up with a bunch of articles > on what Win2K is SUPPOSED to do, not what it IS doing (yes, I do realize > it's still in Beta). > > I need help justifying one against the other. Any thoughts? > > Here's the needs: > - Ease of maintenance > - GREAT stability > - High security > > If I walk, they really don't have an IT guy. The one they have is supposed > to be an "NT guru", but I had to explain to him what a hosts file is for. > I don't hold much hope for him lasting long. So, the idea of support is > somewhat important. My concern is that they install an MS network now, and > spend an eternity doing upgrades and security patches on a monthly basis, > with the every present fear of MS turning off the support (ala Win3.1 --> > win95). My thougths were that with a well configured and well documented > FreeBSD network, they'll be running solid until a) the first breakin, b) > the first major crash, c) a security upgrade is necessary (like the recent > need to update RSAREF2), or d), we're up to v.6.x-stable, and they're > running 3.x-stable, and a new port comes out that they REALLY need that > only runs on the newer versions. > > Any thoughts of how to reason this out with them, or where I might find > more information? First off I'm not sure exactly what your problem is. here you have FreeBSD something: 1) you're skilled at setting up 2) has been working for people for ages 3) is available right now then you have Lose2k: 1) can't set it up becasue it isn't released 2) no one besideds yourself would probably be able to set it up anyway 3) would take longer than FreeBSD to setup because you'd have to learn MS's beta software which will probably have major changes once the release is made and require upgrades. I would ask your boss: 1) do you want me to waste time learning something when I already know something that will do the job. 2) do you want to have to upgrade all the machines the instant the 'real' lose2k comes out 3) do i really have a need to run Halflife on a server? becasue i'm not really even sure Halflife is on lose2k's compatibility list. 4) do you have the nagging urge to spend 6k on software licenses? because if he does there are dozens of under-payed sysadmins would could use a copy of Halflife, money better spent. > I need help justifying one against the other. Any thoughts? > > Here's the needs: > - Ease of maintenance > - GREAT stability > - High security How do _any_ of these come into light when lose2k isn't even released yet? *sigh* -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 5:31:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C7314DC7 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:31:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14680 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:31:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:31:43 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: The Bazaar part II Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG OK, so we're all at the Bazaar , ok well theres only 5 or 6 of us, but hey its a start, we've unloaded over 50 CD's , 6 beanie Daemons, one small plushie Daemon and 4 or 5 mousepads, a toolkit cd, and a snapshot CD. and we're making it know that despite the fact that this conference is so Linux oriented, we're not about to let people forget us. I was talking to the sendmail.net folks (really cool people) and a reporter came over and asked "WHat is Sendmail"...so of course we spane tht enext 10 minutes telling her what sendmail was , then she says "I'm doing an article on Linux." I proceeded to ask her "Why Linux?, instead of the whole Open Source/Free Software Movement", and she said "Investors like Linux", so I proceeded to give her reasons why investors would like FreeBSD, if they only knew it was being run. (Yahoo, US West, Walnut Creek), and proceeded to explain, she asked me several more questions, recorded them on her handy dndy pocket recorder, (while my digital camera was stolen, but thats a different issue, and not her fault, I was only distracted by her) so anyway, I'm hoping I opened her mind up to the whole community, not just Linux (and specifically mentioned FreeBSD several times) Overall the Bazaar has been a clusterf***, and not many people here. Annelise, Lorraine, Chris Masto, Brian Reichert, Marc Rassbach, and Bob Bruce were essentially the "FreeBSD Contingent". We had a *BSD BoF yesterday as well, which went off rather well considering it was unorganized. Unfortunately trying to get everything else together left the BoF unplanned. A Technical BoF would have been cool, but it floated at the outset (partly because of me, and my dilemma of feeling like an outsider at an Open Source event, mostly because it REALLY seemed like a Linux event) to the advocacy issue. There were several, very well known problems identified with the BSD's and the advocacy movement (I call myself a pan-BSD advocate, while my first choice is obvious by the clothes I wear to these things , FreeBSD) and we identitifed problems but no solutions, hopefully Marc Rassbach and I will identify some possible solutions by the time we all leave this evening. Of course they will fall short of calling the distribution some alamagamation of core team members names (or maybe we should just use "Hubbix" (Jordan?)) as the OS name. Linux's popularity largely owes to Linus' name in alot of ways, heres an OS kernel thats named after a person, it makes him the De Facto figurehead of that particular part of the Open Source movement. The fcat that he's pretty friendly, and pretty charismatic as well helps. The Press has someone to focus on. We don;t have that. Nor do I think we really want to have that. Marc and I had dinner with Eric Raymond the other night and before edinner we had discussed BSD advocacy, and he said "I would like to the see the BSD's succeed, but I just don;t see it happening", and I asked the reason. He said it was due to the fact that we just don;t have the advocacy efforts and ethusiasm that Linux has, lets face it, the best hackers are not always the best advocates. Most of us would rather sit and hack code and play with machines that work, rather than get out and scream it from the rooftops. These kinds of activitiess thake alot out ot of us. After 3 days I'm pretty burnt out. I wonder how Jordan does it, or is he burnt too? ;) Anyway getting back on track, he said, we've got some real technical strengths over linux, but without he head-on approach in advocacy, he sees it sinking. I don't. I believe that to start doing that (the way Brett Glass has been saying for a long time) would violate the integrity of the personality of any of the respective *BSD projects. We're not rabid groupies, we rarely get that mentality, we're thinking people, and less likely to follow a trend in compuing unless it has sound merits technically. TO gain notoriety, we have to lose our strength? By the same token, the grassroots efforts are working out well I think, ok, maybe if we use the benchmark of linux as far as advocacy, we've failed. But I kindof see ourselves as a slow success. A well know linux-connected bookstore (linuxcentral) was telling me that 6 months ago, they recieved no calls requesting any *BSD items (CD's etc.), now they get people asking and requesting (specifically FreeBSD) quite a bit. He said that he thinks we *are* growing, and doing just fine. I think at some point that were going to contact Walnut Creek or FreeBSD.org about marketing the Complete FreeBSD and the 4 CD set. I mean I think some things were accomplished here. But not as much as I would have hoped. oh, the one other thing, Marc suggested we go into advoacting in the embedded market, where our licensing allows much more freedom. Anyway, thoughts? opinions? I have a couple suggestions, but nothing I have the time to take on currently, but I'll post those later. -signing off from the Bizarre -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 6: 5:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E8714FBE for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:05:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-032.thuntek.net [207.66.52.32]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA02017; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:05:46 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3858F2C4.57480E83@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:10:12 -0700 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pat Lynch Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Pat Lynch wrote: > > Of course they will fall short of calling the distribution some > alamagamation of core team members names (or maybe we should just use > "Hubbix" (Jordan?)) as the OS name. > !!! I think we're doing much better than we were, FWIW. My prime suggestion is that Walnut Creek put as many copies of the Power Pack and Applixware FBSD on shelves as they can produce. I also think Ton Roosendaal should be contacted to see if he would let WC package Blender in a box. I think it's a great marketdroid-type decision to take freeware and print the manuals and package it in a box. DO NOT bundle them together, the idea is for people to see that there's STUFF TO BUY for FreeBSD. I think the Power Pak is actually a mistake, it would be better to split out the components as separate products. I'd much rather see 1) the Book, 2) the OS, 3) the Bleeding Edge (CURRENT snapshot?), 4) the Toolkit, 5) the Office Suite, and 6) the incredible graphics package Blender on the shelves. It seems that part of the reason Linux has taken off at escape velocity is that there's lots of stuff to buy, and the impulse to pull out one's wallet overwhelms the brain's desire to make a technical decision on an OS. I think it started when Linux people (including WC) put Linux on the shelf. You had a purchase decision in front of you: Buy Slackware or buy WGS, or buy ?. What we need to do is to make it buy FreeBSD or buy RH or buy SuSE? We can't quickly put a gazillion books on the shelf, but we can put FreeBSD-native open source products on the shelf with pretty manuals. Such projects would be a lot simpler than the Applix port was, and I think they'd have almost as much impact. There'd be something new to look forward to buying every time you hit the store. That would also be an argument to sell the store managers. Any time there's a _line_ of related products they have more potential for follow-on sales. In a nutshell, gain retail shelf exposure! -- Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 6:48:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14ADD14E5F for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:48:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: from localhost (chrisc@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21193; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:48:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:48:24 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Coleman To: Pat Lynch Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Pat, Sounds like you did a good job. I have a few suggestions. > There were several, very well known problems identified with the BSD's and > the advocacy movement (I call myself a pan-BSD advocate, while my first > choice is obvious by the clothes I wear to these things , FreeBSD) and we > identitifed problems but no solutions, hopefully Marc Rassbach and I will > identify some possible solutions by the time we all leave this evening. > Its way past time to drop "*BSD" and "BSD's" We need to adopt "BSD". Our marketing approach needs to be targeted to tell people about BSD. Only by harnessing the entire strength of the BSD community will people realize just how big we are. Personally, I think FreeBSD is almost as big as RedHat, however RedHat isn't big enough to be "Linux" by itself, there are over 100 distributions that make a big enough impact that Linux gets the press. FreeBSD isn't big enough to storm the opensource market by itself. NetBSD, OpenBSD, and BSDI all have a pretty big market share. We all need to push BSD and people will notice us. Our net presence is quite big when you look at BSD. BSD is a toolbox with several tools, FreeBSD, NetBSD, BSDI, PicoBSD, OpenBSD, etc... If people feel they can switch between them to use the right one to get the job done, they will stay with BSD because there is a BSD to fit all their needs. The specialization we have achieved, makes us stronger than Linux and we need to market that. I'll get off my soap box now. Chris Coleman Daemon News Editor in Chief http://www.daemonnews.org Bringing BSD together To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 8:26:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB4A14E17 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:26:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15552; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:26:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:26:11 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Chris Coleman Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thanks, that actually solidified things in my mind. Theres been alot of talk about "tools" herem and describing BSD as a toolkit is a great way to go about it. Thanks. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Chris Coleman wrote: > Pat, Sounds like you did a good job. I have a few suggestions. > > > > There were several, very well known problems identified with the BSD's and > > the advocacy movement (I call myself a pan-BSD advocate, while my first > > choice is obvious by the clothes I wear to these things , FreeBSD) and we > > identitifed problems but no solutions, hopefully Marc Rassbach and I will > > identify some possible solutions by the time we all leave this evening. > > > > Its way past time to drop "*BSD" and "BSD's" We need to adopt "BSD". > > Our marketing approach needs to be targeted to tell people about BSD. > Only by harnessing the entire strength of the BSD community will people > realize just how big we are. > > Personally, I think FreeBSD is almost as big as RedHat, however RedHat > isn't big enough to be "Linux" by itself, there are over 100 distributions > that make a big enough impact that Linux gets the press. > > FreeBSD isn't big enough to storm the opensource market by itself. > NetBSD, OpenBSD, and BSDI all have a pretty big market share. We all need > to push BSD and people will notice us. Our net presence is quite big when > you look at BSD. > > BSD is a toolbox with several tools, FreeBSD, NetBSD, BSDI, PicoBSD, > OpenBSD, etc... > > If people feel they can switch between them to use the right one to get > the job done, they will stay with BSD because there is a BSD to fit all > their needs. The specialization we have achieved, makes us stronger than > Linux and we need to market that. > > I'll get off my soap box now. > > Chris Coleman > Daemon News Editor in Chief > http://www.daemonnews.org > Bringing BSD together > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:10:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 1upmc-msx4.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msx4.isdbu.upmc.edu [128.147.18.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CBE14F3E for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:10:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msx4.isdbu.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:10:21 -0500 Message-ID: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA5E@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: 'Pat Lynch' , "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: The Bazaar part II Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:09:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I'm new to the advocacy list and pretty new to FreeBSD, I have been using and learning it for about 6 months now and ready to start doing some programming specifically FreeBSD related. In my professional life, I'm a programmer - Object Pascal, some C++ and SQL, and unfortunately I'm stuck in a WinTel shop, but hopefully that is changing. And with that on to my thoughts and opinions on this subject. So, I came to FBSD after 2 years of 'play' with Linux. I went to Linux because I hated windows every since 2.0 and what it did to the whole PC community. Linux was the first Free OS I had heard of So I gave it a shot. At First I thought it was great. Then when I really started trying to become productive it didn't hold up to the hype (at least for me). I wasn't about to go back to Windows so I didn't know what. I debated a return to DOS until I remembered that cute little devil (I now know it's a daemon) I had seen in on a web site somewhere. So know I preach FreeBSD to my co-workers. And it always the same first question. "What is that?" Where as when I spoke of Linux advocacy it never was "what's that it's" but "Is it better that windows", "Is it hard to install", "what kind of apps are there" or some question that didn't require me to sit down and explain the genesis of the OS. Now being that I work with a bunch of programmers, DBAs and Tech guys you would think that BSD had some recognition factor but no it does seem to. Here is a prime example of *BSD needing exposure. I seems to me that if your in a tech community and they have no clue as to what it even is there is a problem in the marketing. Although, recently I have seen full size ads in Linux Journal for FreeBSD. That's a start. One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for FreeBSD there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users with tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating my web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source movement in general. I believe that you are write in saying that it takes a lot of energy to advocate. Not only that but it takes a lot of time. This seems to something that people who use *BSD actually lack. Linux seem more for younger up and coming hackers/programmers etc. But the BSD are for those who know what they want and need to get it done without having to hack a patch to make it work correctly. I think free time of the advocates is the biggest obstacle. I maybe wrong, I'm not sure but that how I see it. I keep try to put in the time I can on what ever I can but life, advocacy and work just are mixed enough in my life now to be much help. "TO gain notoriety, we have to lose our strength?" I really like that. I think that sums up my whole rant here. Hell I might even use that as my new sig. :) Rod To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:15:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from engine2.dhivehinet.net.mv (engine2.dhivehinet.net.mv [202.1.192.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C4814FF3 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:15:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: from bandhu ([202.1.193.134]) by engine2.dhivehinet.net.mv (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-58493U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id mv; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:15:17 +0500 Message-ID: <003d01bf47e6$4ab21c20$86c101ca@bandhu> From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "Person, Roderick" Cc: References: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA5E@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> Subject: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:24:58 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add > hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web > pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for FreeBSD > there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a > 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users with > tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating my > web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source movement in > general. Hmm...maybe someone could tie in the freshmeat.net ports tree to the freebsd ports tree? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:19:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE031560E for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:19:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: from localhost (chrisc@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22309; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:19:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:19:20 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Coleman To: Haikal Saadh Cc: "Person, Roderick" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] In-Reply-To: <003d01bf47e6$4ab21c20$86c101ca@bandhu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Haikal Saadh wrote: > > One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add > > hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web > > pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for FreeBSD > > there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a > > 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users with > > tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating my > > web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source movement > in > > general. > > Hmm...maybe someone could tie in the freshmeat.net ports tree to the freebsd > ports tree? Does Daemon News need to spawn a new site? Chris Coleman Daemon News Editor in Chief http://www.daemonnews.org Bringing BSD together > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:25: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from engine2.dhivehinet.net.mv (engine2.dhivehinet.net.mv [202.1.192.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E0314DAA for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:25:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: from bandhu ([202.1.193.134]) by engine2.dhivehinet.net.mv (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-58493U3000L300S0V35) with SMTP id mv; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:24:56 +0500 Message-ID: <004701bf47e7$a3979120$86c101ca@bandhu> From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "Chris Coleman" Cc: References: Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:34:38 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Coleman To: Haikal Saadh Cc: Person, Roderick ; Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 10:49 PM Subject: Re: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] > On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Haikal Saadh wrote: > > > > One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add > > > hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web > > > pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for FreeBSD > > > there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a > > > 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users with > > > tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating my > > > web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source movement > > in > > > general. > > > > Hmm...maybe someone could tie in the freshmeat.net ports tree to the freebsd > > ports tree? > > Does Daemon News need to spawn a new site? > I would imagine, no. freshmeat.net offers a ports tree similar to our 'proper' ports tree, for the benefit of our linux using brethren. I think it would just a matter of getting someone to adapt the makefiles to freeBSD. Of course, freshmeat.daemonnews.org sounds just as well..a joint venture between DN and freshmeat, perhaps? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:26:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 1upmc-msx4.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msx4.isdbu.upmc.edu [128.147.18.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB5D14ECB for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:26:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msx4.isdbu.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:26:55 -0500 Message-ID: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA5F@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: 'Haikal Saadh' , "Person, Roderick" Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:26:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have to be honest on this, never much cared for the design of freshmeat when I used Linux only, so I did know about a FreeBSD ports available there. But I do see that it still predominately a Linux site, even though I did see the BeBits section, but still no open BSD endorsement or section... > -----Original Message----- > From: Haikal Saadh [SMTP:wyldephyre2@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 11:55 AM > To: Person, Roderick > Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] > > > One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add > > hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web > > pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for > FreeBSD > > there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a > > 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users > with > > tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating > my > > web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source > movement > in > > general. > > Hmm...maybe someone could tie in the freshmeat.net ports tree to the > freebsd > ports tree? > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:50:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 1upmc-msx4.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msx4.isdbu.upmc.edu [128.147.18.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A3F1503A for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:50:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msx4.isdbu.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:50:32 -0500 Message-ID: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA60@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: 'Haikal Saadh' , Chris Coleman Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:50:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I would say you need to spawn a site off either, but there need to be more sites. People want choices variety. People are greedy and want to be able to sustain that greed whether it's for food, knowledge, money or what have you. I would be leery of a daemon news/ freshmet venture, it could do more harm then good making FreeBSD just another Linux Distro. Look at this site http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/test.html . Every link here is Linux. Linux Magazines, Clothing tons and tons of Linux only stuff. This is what I mean by need more web sites, more diversity in the sites. The Ports Tree is a wonderful thing, but if you want to take the FreeBSD market where the Linux market is the more pre-compile binaries need to be available. Not everyone wants to download the entire ports collection and do builds via a network connections. It all depends on what market your targeting what type of additions need to be made. Myself I like the world domination scope of attack. > -----Original Message----- > > > Does Daemon News need to spawn a new site? > > > I would imagine, no. > freshmeat.net offers a ports tree similar to our 'proper' ports tree, for > the benefit of our linux using brethren. I think it would just a matter > of > getting someone to adapt the makefiles to freeBSD. > Of course, freshmeat.daemonnews.org sounds just as well..a joint venture > between DN and freshmeat, perhaps? > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:56:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (sol.cc.u-szeged.hu [160.114.8.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD99615659 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:56:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (8.9.1b+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id SAA18613; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:56:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11yf9l-0005Rm-00; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:57:37 +0100 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:57:37 +0100 From: Szilveszter Adam To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] Message-ID: <19991216185737.A17351@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: advocacy@freebsd.org References: <004701bf47e7$a3979120$86c101ca@bandhu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0i In-Reply-To: <004701bf47e7$a3979120$86c101ca@bandhu>; from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com on Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 10:34:38PM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 10:34:38PM +0530, Haikal Saadh wrote: > > I would imagine, no. > freshmeat.net offers a ports tree similar to our 'proper' ports tree, for > the benefit of our linux using brethren. I think it would just a matter of > getting someone to adapt the makefiles to freeBSD. I imagine it would be more than just modifyng some Makefiles to get this done... as I see it (I am a -STABLE user) we need a lot of catch-up work if we want to compile and run the latest Linux apps on FBSD. (Binary compatibility is rather good now.) The fact that we do not have all the libraries the current linux distros have (at least in -STABLE we still are at the level of RH 5.x which becomes quickly outdated.) makes porting hard. Also in Linux development is much more individualistic there is nothing to bar somebody from using stuff from wherever using includes, libraries etc as they choose. That is why before downloading a Linux app you always have to check very carefully the sysreqs. That is why you often have to upgrade the gcc or libc just because of a new app that requests this. This leads to very nasty problems with key components getting out of sync and a frequent need for tricks and tips to keep the thing going. This is almost a non-issue with FBSD if you are tracking -STABLE in reasonable intervals, you likely have everything you need. Maybe that is why we have fewer 'insider tips'? I even have seen Linux progs that would only compile against a particular revision of a library from a CVS repository. I do not think this heterogenity fits in well with our practice. The "problem" if you wanna have it that way is not new: What already *is* implemented in BSD tends to work solidly and is developed until it reaches a great degree of maturity. But this approach obviously makes it quite impossible to track every new trend and make it conform to our ideals. We chose perfection over speed, that's it. Regards: Szilveszter ADAM -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Szilveszter ADAM * JATE Szeged * email: sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu * * Homepage : none * alternate email: cc@flanker.itl.net.ua * * Finger sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu for PGP key. * * I prefer using the door instead of Windows(tm)... * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 10: 8:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 1upmc-msx4.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msx4.isdbu.upmc.edu [128.147.18.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AF9314C3E for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:08:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msx4.isdbu.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:08:28 -0500 Message-ID: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA61@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: 'Szilveszter Adam' , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:08:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >That is why you often have to upgrade the gcc or libc >just because of a new app that requests this. This leads to very nasty >problems with key components getting out of sync and a frequent need for >tricks and tips to keep the thing going. This is almost a non-issue with FBSD >if you are tracking -STABLE in reasonable intervals, That is exactly why I gave up on Linux. The last time I did that I wanted a 68k news reader and had to download 175M of stuff to upgrade my entire system. Gladly I have never done this on FBSD. Examples, such as this, need to be put in the face of Linux users and advocates. This is the prefect type of promotion to attest to the power of BSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 11: 3:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (sol.cc.u-szeged.hu [160.114.8.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5275C15664 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:03:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (8.9.1b+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id UAA26113; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:03:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11ygCe-0005iS-00; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:04:40 +0100 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:04:40 +0100 From: Szilveszter Adam To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD software Message-ID: <19991216200440.B17351@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: advocacy@freebsd.org References: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA61@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0i In-Reply-To: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA61@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu>; from personrp@ccbh.com on Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 01:08:00PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 01:08:00PM -0500, Person, Roderick wrote: > That is exactly why I gave up on Linux. The last time I did that I wanted a > 68k news reader and had to download 175M of stuff to upgrade my entire > system. Gladly I have never done this on FBSD. Examples, such as this, need > to be put in the face of Linux users and advocates. This is the prefect type > of promotion to attest to the power of BSD. Well, this example must be rather extreme, on the other hand... but yes, these benefits need to be emphasized. Also the fact that many BSD flavors have the ability to receive source upgrades via cvsup and then remake the world (well, I am not sure for NetBSD and do not think it is possible with BSDI) But the place where we need to put these facts is the mainstream media and places like the Bazaar, instead of in the face of Linux advocates. Otherwise you will be in for some religious battle in which nobody is right and yet everybody has valid points. It is not them who need convincing IMHO. Especially because I have not heard many rants against any BSD from the Linux people, which was not always true from our side. (In fact when I talked to Linux fans at a computer fair last spring here, they were kind of respectful towards me as soon as they learned that I used BSD. They considered it to be some sort of "more serious thing" compared to Linux... it was interesting and heartwarming to hear this.:-) And till the time an average manager or someone interested outsider gets the idea there is still a long way to go... when you talk to them about their computing experience they usually consider DOS and different versions of Win as alternatives to each other...and some of them have heard of MacOS. The IT press also does things wrong by only offering tips for Win and also lots of shareware and the Linux sections are kinda "for serious hackers only" so that average people get scared away. And when it comes to discussing alternatives, they rant about rare things like BeOS or some really outlandish (for most people) things like the Amiga or ZX-Spectrum so that the whole thing has no more than pure entertainment value. The mind boggles. At least this is the situation here in Hungary now. Regards: Szilveszter ADAM -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Szilveszter ADAM * JATE Szeged * email: sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu * * Homepage : none * alternate email: cc@flanker.itl.net.ua * * Finger sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu for PGP key. * * I prefer using the door instead of Windows(tm)... * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 12:46:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1067A15688 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:46:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29275; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:46:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <38594F94.C0FE8ED2@owp.csus.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:46:12 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Coleman Cc: Haikal Saadh , "Person, Roderick" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Coleman wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Haikal Saadh wrote: > > > > One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add > > > hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web > > > pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for FreeBSD > > > there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a > > > 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users with > > > tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating my > > > web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source movement > > in > > > general. > > > > Hmm...maybe someone could tie in the freshmeat.net ports tree to the freebsd > > ports tree? > > Does Daemon News need to spawn a new site? This is something that I've thought a bit. I'd really like to see something like freshmeat.net for the ports collection. Maybe even tying into freshmeat.net for crossover stuff. I think this is a neat idea, my schedule is getting a little heavy, but I'd be interested in something like this. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 12:50:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D3DC157B6 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:50:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29309; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:50:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <38595079.24CD82DA@owp.csus.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:50:01 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Person, Roderick" Cc: "'Haikal Saadh'" , Chris Coleman , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] References: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA60@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Person, Roderick" wrote: > > I would say you need to spawn a site off either, but there need to be more > sites. People want choices variety. People are greedy and want to be able to > sustain that greed whether it's for food, knowledge, money or what have you. > > I would be leery of a daemon news/ freshmet venture, it could do more harm > then good making FreeBSD just another Linux Distro. I wasn't really thinking of a joint venture so much as a site in the same vain as freshmeat.net ( vain != design ) for the ports/packages collection. > > Look at this site http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/test.html . > Every link here is Linux. Linux Magazines, Clothing tons and tons of Linux > only stuff. This is what I mean by need more web sites, more diversity in > the sites. The Ports Tree is a wonderful thing, but if you want to take the > FreeBSD market where the Linux market is the more pre-compile binaries need > to be available. Not everyone wants to download the entire ports collection > and do builds via a network connections. It all depends on what market your > targeting what type of additions need to be made. Myself I like the world > domination scope of attack. Take a look at the packages collection, these are prebuilt binaries based on the ports collection. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 13:11:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 1upmc-msx4.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msx4.isdbu.upmc.edu [128.147.18.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F149C15834 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:11:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msx4.isdbu.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:11:03 -0500 Message-ID: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA63@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: 'Joseph Scott' Cc: 'Haikal Saadh' , Chris Coleman , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:10:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Take a look at the packages collection, these are prebuilt binaries > based on the ports collection. Ok, maybe I'm just not clear enough. I know about the ports collections. I use it religiously. But, there has to be apps for freeBSD that exist outside of the ports collections. My favorite mail app from Linux doesn't exist anywhere on a FreeBSD, not in the ports not in the packages. But, the Home page of the apps suggested that it has be compile against FreeBSD. So, I download the source and compiled it for FBSD. I'm just suggesting a FreeBSD centric site that includes such apps that aren't found anywhere on FreeBSD.org in a binary and source package - not necessarily a FreeBSD package, maybe just a binary tar. I think were arguing for the same thing but with different formats. > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Scott [SMTP:joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 3:50 PM > To: Person, Roderick > Cc: 'Haikal Saadh'; Chris Coleman; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] > > > "Person, Roderick" wrote: > > > > I would say you need to spawn a site off either, but there need to be > more > > sites. People want choices variety. People are greedy and want to be > able to > > sustain that greed whether it's for food, knowledge, money or what have > you. > > > > I would be leery of a daemon news/ freshmet venture, it could do more > harm > > then good making FreeBSD just another Linux Distro. > > I wasn't really thinking of a joint venture so much as a site in the > same vain as freshmeat.net ( vain != design ) for the ports/packages > collection. > > > > > Look at this site http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/test.html . > > Every link here is Linux. Linux Magazines, Clothing tons and tons of > Linux > > only stuff. This is what I mean by need more web sites, more diversity > in > > the sites. The Ports Tree is a wonderful thing, but if you want to take > the > > FreeBSD market where the Linux market is the more pre-compile binaries > need > > to be available. Not everyone wants to download the entire ports > collection > > and do builds via a network connections. It all depends on what market > your > > targeting what type of additions need to be made. Myself I like the > world > > domination scope of attack. > > > -- > > Joseph Scott > joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu > Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 13:18:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D23F156F8 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:18:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29538; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:17:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <385956F0.35094355@owp.csus.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:17:36 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Person, Roderick" Cc: "'Haikal Saadh'" , Chris Coleman , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] References: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA63@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Person, Roderick" wrote: > >> Take a look at the packages collection, these are prebuilt binaries >> based on the ports collection. > Ok, maybe I'm just not clear enough. I know about the ports collections. I > use it religiously. But, there has to be apps for freeBSD that exist outside > of the ports collections. My favorite mail app from Linux doesn't exist > anywhere on a FreeBSD, not in the ports not in the packages. But, the Home > page of the apps suggested that it has be compile against FreeBSD. So, I > download the source and compiled it for FBSD. I'm just suggesting a FreeBSD > centric site that includes such apps that aren't found anywhere on > FreeBSD.org in a binary and source package - not necessarily a FreeBSD > package, maybe just a binary tar. > > I think were arguing for the same thing but with different formats. Ok I think I see what you are talking about. Would it be safe to sum up what you are describing as : something similar to freshmeat.net with a focus on FreeBSD apps? That being said you may want to check out : http://www.bsdapps.org I'm not sure how much is there. It takes work to come up with all this stuff :-) If you are interested in something like a freshmeat.net for BSD then I would either talk to the bsdapps.org folks and help them by volunteering some time/effort or come up with a design/proposal for a new site. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 13:28:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 1upmc-msx4.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msx4.isdbu.upmc.edu [128.147.18.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7301914E65 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:28:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msx4.isdbu.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:28:24 -0500 Message-ID: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA64@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: 'Joseph Scott' Cc: 'Haikal Saadh' , Chris Coleman , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:27:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well I guess this is along the lines of what I mean. I'll have to check it out more and e-mail them too. Thanks! > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Scott [SMTP:joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu] > Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 4:18 PM > To: Person, Roderick > Cc: 'Haikal Saadh'; Chris Coleman; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] > > > "Person, Roderick" wrote: > > > >> Take a look at the packages collection, these are prebuilt > binaries > >> based on the ports collection. > > > Ok, maybe I'm just not clear enough. I know about the ports collections. > I > > use it religiously. But, there has to be apps for freeBSD that exist > outside > > of the ports collections. My favorite mail app from Linux doesn't exist > > anywhere on a FreeBSD, not in the ports not in the packages. But, the > Home > > page of the apps suggested that it has be compile against FreeBSD. So, I > > download the source and compiled it for FBSD. I'm just suggesting a > FreeBSD > > centric site that includes such apps that aren't found anywhere on > > FreeBSD.org in a binary and source package - not necessarily a FreeBSD > > package, maybe just a binary tar. > > > > I think were arguing for the same thing but with different formats. > > Ok I think I see what you are talking about. Would it be safe to > sum > up what you are describing as : something similar to freshmeat.net > with a focus on FreeBSD apps? > > That being said you may want to check out : > > http://www.bsdapps.org > > I'm not sure how much is there. It takes work to come up with all > this stuff :-) > > If you are interested in something like a freshmeat.net for BSD then > I would either talk to the bsdapps.org folks and help them by > volunteering some time/effort or come up with a design/proposal for a > new site. > > -- > > Joseph Scott > joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu > Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 14: 4:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from c006.sfo.cp.net (c006-h007.c006.sfo.cp.net [209.228.14.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 86A8115906 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:04:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ignacioc@avantel.net) Received: (cpmta 4891 invoked from network); 16 Dec 1999 14:04:45 -0800 Received: from unknown (HELO www) (200.39.243.161) by smtp.avantel.net with SMTP; 16 Dec 1999 14:04:45 -0800 X-Sent: 16 Dec 1999 22:04:45 GMT Message-ID: <01f301bf4811$559b53b0$0c2d1cc0@redando.com> From: "Ignacio Cristerna" To: Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:03:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0810.800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0810.800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeez, I love it when the FreeBSD list brings a lot of e-mails. It means the community is alive and well. I wish the FreeBSD sites could show that energy and life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 14:24:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DDC157D4 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:24:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA63621; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:23:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Pat Lynch Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:31:43 EST." Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:23:57 -0800 Message-ID: <63617.945383037@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > OK, so we're all at the Bazaar , ok well theres only 5 or 6 of us, but hey > its a start, we've unloaded over 50 CD's , 6 beanie Daemons, one small > plushie Daemon and 4 or 5 mousepads, a toolkit cd, and a snapshot CD. > and we're making it know that despite the fact that this conference is so > Linux oriented, we're not about to let people forget us. This sounds like a more than reasonable achievement, folks - don't beat yourselves up! The fact that there was a tangible presence there at all is what should be applauded, especially once you do your homework a little and calculate just how many shows go by where there's little or no presence at all. It sounds like you've shown the Linux people who attended that the BSDs are still alive and kicking, and from such small seeds often grow many interesting things. :) > alamagamation of core team members names (or maybe we should just use > "Hubbix" (Jordan?)) as the OS name. Retch! > the rooftops. These kinds of activitiess thake alot out ot of us. After 3 > days I'm pretty burnt out. I wonder how Jordan does it, or is he burnt > too? ;) I'm definitely not immune to burn-out and that's why I wasn't in NYC this December. I had to take at least a month off. :) > Anyway getting back on track, he said, we've got some real technical > strengths over linux, but without he head-on approach in advocacy, he sees > it sinking. Eric has always predicted the falling of the BSD sky and I don't see how this latest commentary is inconsistent in any way with his previous positions. We can only but prove his pessimism to be misplaced by stubbornly refusing to sink. :) > He said that he thinks we *are* growing, and doing just fine. I think at > some point that were going to contact Walnut Creek or FreeBSD.org about > marketing the Complete FreeBSD and the 4 CD set. That would be great, have them drop us a line. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 14:29:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66B814F45 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:29:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA63655; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:29:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Cc: Pat Lynch , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:10:12 MST." <3858F2C4.57480E83@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:29:15 -0800 Message-ID: <63651.945383355@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > it's a great marketdroid-type decision to take freeware and print the > manuals and package it in a box. DO NOT bundle them together, the idea > is for people to see that there's STUFF TO BUY for FreeBSD. I think the > Power Pak is actually a mistake, it would be better to split out the > components as separate products. Heh, unfortunately, this is engineer-thinking rather than channel sales thinking. :) First off, the components are available split off as separate products and have been for far longer than the PowerPak has been a discrete product. The Pak was created due to retailer demand, who didn't *want* a whole bunch of $39.95 products (on which they make little) on the shelves and taking up valuable shelf space. They wanted something more compact and priced up around $59.00 and so that's what they got. You don't dictate terms to the channel, it dictates terms to you and you better listen or you don't get to stay in there very long. :-) > shelves. It seems that part of the reason Linux has taken off at escape > velocity is that there's lots of stuff to buy, and the impulse to pull And the retailers hate this, the only thing keeping them stocking all those diverse products is the fact that the products are all in competition with one another and there's no *hope* of consolidation. The size of the Linux market means the retailers have to still devote the shelf space, but they don't have to be happy about it. We, unfortunately, are too small to get away with that kind of behavior. :) Not to say that retailers wouldn't mind more products in the FreeBSD line, they just want them to cost more than $50. This means creating bundles of some sort since raising the price of the base product would suck rocks and everyone here would agree. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 15:13:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A67514D2C for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:13:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-138.thuntek.net [207.66.52.138]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id QAA03537; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:13:14 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3859732C.E2120966@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:18:04 -0700 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freeBSD.org Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II References: <63651.945383355@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > Not to say that retailers wouldn't mind more products in the FreeBSD > line, they just want them to cost more than $50. This means creating > bundles of some sort since raising the price of the base product would > suck rocks and everyone here would agree. > > - Jordan Is THAT why we can't buy any $299 Pentiums? I thought it was just Windoooooozzzzzzeee..... Thanks for the comments, Jordan. As I live, I learn. :-) -- Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 16:24:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49CD014D2C for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:24:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA88096; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:24:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <199912170024.TAA88096@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01f301bf4811$559b53b0$0c2d1cc0@redando.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:24:15 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Ignacio Cristerna Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 16-Dec-99 Ignacio Cristerna wrote: > Jeez, I love it when the FreeBSD list brings a lot of e-mails. It means the > community is alive and well. I wish the FreeBSD sites could show that energy > and life. You should be reading -current, -hackers, or cvs-all then. They almost always have lots of posts. :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 20:22:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1AA814E78 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:22:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id UAA19496; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:21:33 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id UAA05432; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:21:33 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA03560; Thu, 16 Dec 99 20:21:27 PST Message-Id: <3859BA98.EE868489@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:22:48 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Coleman Cc: Haikal Saadh , "Person, Roderick" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Coleman wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Haikal Saadh wrote: > > > > One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add > > > hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web > > > pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for FreeBSD > > > there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a > > > 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users with > > > tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating my > > > web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source movement > > in > > > general. > > > > Hmm...maybe someone could tie in the freshmeat.net ports tree to the freebsd > > ports tree? > > Does Daemon News need to spawn a new site? http://apps.daemonnews.org. I like that. It'd be really cool if it could cross-refence the ports/packages for {Free,Net,Open}BSD automagically, indicating which are available on each platform. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 20:32: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1BF14EFD for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:32:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id UAA19551; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:30:43 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id UAA05606; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:30:43 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA03771; Thu, 16 Dec 99 20:30:41 PST Message-Id: <3859BCC2.7CDCB29E@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:32:02 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Person, Roderick" Cc: "'Joseph Scott'" , "'Haikal Saadh'" , Chris Coleman , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] References: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA63@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Person, Roderick" wrote: > > > Take a look at the packages collection, these are prebuilt > binaries > > based on the ports collection. > Ok, maybe I'm just not clear enough. I know about the ports collections. I > use it religiously. But, there has to be apps for freeBSD that exist outside > of the ports collections. My favorite mail app from Linux doesn't exist > anywhere on a FreeBSD, not in the ports not in the packages. But, the Home > page of the apps suggested that it has be compile against FreeBSD. So, I > download the source and compiled it for FBSD. So the appropriate thing to do would be: a) Create a port kit that will fetch, patch (if needed), make, and install it on FreeBSD. b) Submit the port via send-pr and/or a friendly neighborhood committer. c) Then port it to NetBSD and OpenBSD. Shuffle the order of BSDs to your liking. If you need access to a NetBSD or OpenBSD machine, this can probably be provided. d) Tell the world about it on a site devoted to BSD apps. This mythological site could/should also offer porting helps, maybe a mailing list or two, an IRC channel, and perhaps even access to porting machines. I'll just be we can get kind-hearted FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD users to open up their machines, or donate machines to the site, for porting work. We don't need 4300 different sites all with a different, incompatible list of some things that may or may not run on your machine, we need ONE really good site with ONE exhaustive, authoritative list of EVERYTHING that runs on your BSD machine. Then we need to tell everyone on the planet how to get to it. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 8:13:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4DD91578C for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:13:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23633; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:12:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:12:50 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Wes Peters Cc: Chris Coleman , Haikal Saadh , "Person, Roderick" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BAS software In-Reply-To: <3859BA98.EE868489@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > Does Daemon News need to spawn a new site? > > http://apps.daemonnews.org. I like that. It'd be really cool if it could > cross-refence the ports/packages for {Free,Net,Open}BSD automagically, > indicating which are available on each platform. > Actually it would also be nice of people who are ports maintainers can learn the differences btwn each of the project's port stuff (theres only a couple things) and write makefiles/patches for ports so they compile on all three platforms, and submit them to each ports/pkg-src maintainer. I'm working on some ports for a couple things (although in light of my recent job move and my recent advocacy efforts, some things have been pushed aside, but one is a Listar port (which is actually almost ready and pretty trivial), and would be nice to get into the ports tree. But I also want it to go in all three package/ports collections. anyway, I'm at work so actually have something to do after being gone for three days, but I'll report back on the rest of the Bazaar when I get a chance, and what I see as having been accomplished. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 8:33:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF0914CD4; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:33:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23771; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:33:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:33:49 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: linux in the schools (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I know its not alot of money, but its practically a volunteer position, so if anyone in the New York City area is interested, let me know or contact lucia@lrw.net the second thing on here is a chance to semi-wire a school, and start them out with FreeBSD possibly, they are currently thinking of using linux, but I assume that they will probably use whatever the volunteer advises them to. ;) -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:20:42 -0500 (EST) From: Lucia Ruedenberg Wright To: Pat Lynch Cc: Randy Wright Subject: linux in the schools Hi Pat - you spoke up at today's panel on linux in the schools, thinking you might know of someone who could take a sysadmin position for a while to help out the alternative school district convert their schools labs to linux. Randy thinks that there is money for such a position at around $40,000/year. If you think you can find somebody who would be interested, please contact us and I'll forward the info on to Shantanu Saha, the systems engineer there. also, if you are interested in helping Jack Giordano at VTC (Vocational Training Center) let me know. You can check out the website with contact info and school needs: http://lxk12.org You can contact Jack at 718-289-5746 Tell him you got the number from me and are interested in helping out, he should update you and make a date to meet at the school. Lucia ___________________________________________________________ lucia@lrw.net http://www.lrw.net/~lucia ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You don't stop playing because you grow old; You grow old because you stop playing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 8:38:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (sol.cc.u-szeged.hu [160.114.8.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF01A1573F for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:38:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (8.9.1b+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id RAA24269; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:38:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11z0QX-0004M4-00; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:40:21 +0100 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:40:21 +0100 From: Szilveszter Adam To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BAS software Message-ID: <19991217174021.D12454@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3859BA98.EE868489@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from lynch@bsdunix.net on Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:12:50AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! On Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:12:50AM -0500, Pat Lynch wrote: > On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > Actually it would also be nice of people who are ports maintainers can > learn the differences btwn each of the project's port stuff (theres only a > couple things) and write makefiles/patches for ports so they compile on > all three platforms, and submit them to each ports/pkg-src maintainer. Hmmmm.... Of course this would be great! But have you considered this: FreeBSD has it easy because we mainly have to care for the x86 platform (yes sure we also support Alpha but there is a huge difference in the user base...) whereas OpenBSD also supports Alpha and the Sparc. NetBSD supports an endless variety of platforms. And the user base of those flavors is a much more balanced mix. For example surprisingly many people are running OpenBSD on the Sparc. And of course they all want ports available. With some ports this is no problem, but even we have a couple of ONLY_FOR_ARCHS ports which in practice means only for x86... and consider that even in (Open|Net)BSD with its multiplatform focus there are some fundamental things missing from non-x86 implementations, like virtual consoles for the Sparc which makes this work you are proposing a huge one with a need for many development machines and experienced programmers... and also on OpenBSD for example ports are only guaranteed to work on -CURRENT, which in practice is a snapshot (there is no separate -CURRENT and -STABLE branch on OBSD) and it makes testing difficult because it is constantly moving target... but it would be really nice indeed to have this sort of cooperation! Just some quick thoughts... Regards: Szilveszter ADAM -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Szilveszter ADAM * JATE Szeged * email: sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu * * Homepage : none * alternate email: cc@flanker.itl.net.ua * * Finger sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu for PGP key. * * I prefer using the door instead of Windows(tm)... * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 10:12:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from server.bitmcnit.bryansk.su (bitmcnit.bryansk.ru [195.239.213.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021DB15129 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:12:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alex@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by server.bitmcnit.bryansk.su (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id VAA17812; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:07:08 +0300 Received: (from alex@localhost) by kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA02224; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:08:07 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from alex) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:08:06 +0300 From: Alex Kapranoff To: "Person, Roderick" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] Message-ID: <19991217210806.B1038@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su> References: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA63@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA63@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu>; from personrp@ccbh.com on Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 04:10:36PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 04:10:36PM -0500, Person, Roderick wrote: > > Take a look at the packages collection, these are prebuilt > binaries > > based on the ports collection. > Ok, maybe I'm just not clear enough. I know about the ports collections. I > use it religiously. But, there has to be apps for freeBSD that exist outside > of the ports collections. My favorite mail app from Linux doesn't exist > anywhere on a FreeBSD, not in the ports not in the packages. But, the Home > page of the apps suggested that it has be compile against FreeBSD. So, I > download the source and compiled it for FBSD. I'm just suggesting a FreeBSD Why don't you just submit that wonderful app to the ports collection? Why create websites for searching FreeBSD-apps and not use the www.freebsd.org/ports? You miss something from the list - then add it. I think FreeBSD win in being centralized not scattered across the Net. I believe that every program which is said to run on FreeBSD _should_ be present in ports tree. So that I don't use some awkward websearch but just cd /usr/ports; grep mail INDEX | more -- Alex Kapranoff, 2:50/383.20@fidonet, Voice: +7(0832)791845. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 14:42: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BE021514D; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:41:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id OAA03187; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:41:09 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id OAA05428; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:41:09 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA29854; Fri, 17 Dec 99 14:41:07 PST Message-Id: <385ABC5A.55F01F73@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:42:34 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Pat Lynch Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: linux in the schools (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Pat Lynch wrote: > > I know its not alot of money, but its practically a volunteer position, so > if anyone in the New York City area is interested, let me know or contact > lucia@lrw.net > > the second thing on here is a chance to semi-wire a school, and start them > out with FreeBSD possibly, they are currently thinking of using linux, but > I assume that they will probably use whatever the volunteer advises them > to. ;) This is a great idea! Wait a minute, didn't somebody write a column about this not too long ago? Let me see... http://www.daemonnews.org/199901/d-advocate.html Yup, there it is: ``Find somebody who needs some help and slip them a BSD CD-ROM. Get involved with your local high school computer club, a UNIX user group, ACM chapter, IEEE society, etc. '' Close enough. What a great idea. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 19: 3:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 958E514DF7 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:03:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 21708 invoked from network); 18 Dec 1999 03:03:16 -0000 Received: from userbf27.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.142.48) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 1999 03:03:16 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA01319 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:03:15 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:03:14 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: We're No. 1 :) Message-ID: <19991218030314.C323@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Maybe I've missed a post here but it seems we're No.1 in the OS ratings :) (of course *we* all knew that, it's just that everyone else didn't) http://www.deja.com/rate/list_items.xp?CID=11997 -- "there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture that allows you to install Windows too ;" -Matthew D. Fuller ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 20:22: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B5814C87 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:22:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-017.thuntek.net [207.66.52.17]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id VAA11755; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:20:47 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <385B0B94.85A74931@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:20:36 -0700 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RC i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: We're No. 1 :) References: <19991218030314.C323@marder-1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Ovens wrote: > > Maybe I've missed a post here but it seems we're No.1 in the OS > ratings :) (of course *we* all knew that, it's just that everyone > else didn't) > > http://www.deja.com/rate/list_items.xp?CID=11997 > Considering that it took me morew than ten tries to get to the screen where I could rate BSD, it is a wonder that we have even that many. Jeez, even A/UX came up three times before BSD... Fortunately, NT came up while I was hitting reload... ! Funny, how after I rated NT, it switched me to rating cellular phones.... I had to start over from your original URL. :-) Gotcha, finally, you ____! :-))) happy comper! -- Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 20:59:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1A314D9B for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:59:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tim@futuresouth.com) Received: (from tim@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA20689; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:57:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:57:06 -0600 From: Tim Tsai To: Donald Wilde Cc: Mark Ovens , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: We're No. 1 :) Message-ID: <19991217225705.A20261@futuresouth.com> References: <19991218030314.C323@marder-1> <385B0B94.85A74931@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <385B0B94.85A74931@thuntek.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Considering that it took me morew than ten tries to get to the screen > where I could rate BSD, it is a wonder that we have even that many. It is strange the way it is layout - but you just have to click on the BSD link to rate it. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 18 1:17:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from kearneys.ca (cr1003527-a.rct1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.36.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C742214DF7 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:17:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brent@kearneys.ca) Received: (qmail 5231 invoked by uid 1000); 18 Dec 1999 09:19:38 -0000 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:19:38 -0800 From: Brent Kearney To: Konrad Heuer Cc: FreeBSD Questions , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Observations from Germany Message-ID: <19991218011938.A5150@kearneys.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de on Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 09:34:44PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 09:34:44PM +0100, Konrad Heuer wrote: > > I see that SuSE does a good job in Germany. SuSE Linux is nowadays offered > by large purchasers and mail-order-houses like Comtech (a large > > seemed to move exclusively to the Windows systems. On the other hand, I > would much more like to see FreeBSD in that context than SuSE Linux The primary reason why SuSE, RedHat, etc, enjoy commercial success is because they are commercial enterprises with those goals in mind. Riding the wave of Linux hysteria, these companies produce significantly different Operating Systems, although because they all use the Linux kernel, tag "Linux" on the end of their corporate identities, and reap the efforts of the open source community to produce the products that they market. How can FreeBSD maximize the benefit from the Linux hysteria? The approach so far seems to be largely "grassroots" campaigning. With more and more techies discovering the benefits of FreeBSD, it squeaks into the scaffolding of the Internet. I think the latest media blips about FreeBSD, "Even better than Linux?", etc., are exactly what the FreeBSD community needs. The media loves mystery and hype. Were a company to evangelize FreeBSD the way that SuSE and RedHat do for Linux, this hype might reach similar proportions, and the OS could gain similar popularity. This is all, of course, purely speculative. I know nothing about gaining the support of hardware vendors. Just a little armchair philosophy =) -Brent To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 18 5:26:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653D014D31 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 05:26:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Received: from wildrock (207-229-148-8.d.enteract.com [207.229.148.8]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA42482 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 07:26:29 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) From: "Chris Silva" To: Subject: RE: We're No. 1 :) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 07:25:34 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <19991217225705.A20261@futuresouth.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hmmm - maybe we ought to do something about this?! http://www.dhbrown.com/dhbrown/OpSysScoreCard.cfm > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Tim Tsai > Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 10:57 PM > To: Donald Wilde > Cc: Mark Ovens; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: We're No. 1 :) > > > > Considering that it took me morew than ten tries to get to the screen > > where I could rate BSD, it is a wonder that we have even that many. > > It is strange the way it is layout - but you just have to click on the > BSD link to rate it. > > Tim > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 18 6:15:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (sol.cc.u-szeged.hu [160.114.8.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88885157CE for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 06:14:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (8.9.1b+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id PAA26463; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:14:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11zKeg-0002Sd-00; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:16:18 +0100 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:16:18 +0100 From: Szilveszter Adam To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: We're No. 1 :) Message-ID: <19991218151618.A8925@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19991217225705.A20261@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from bitsurfr@enteract.com on Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 07:25:34AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 07:25:34AM -0600, Chris Silva wrote: > Hmmm - maybe we ought to do something about this?! > > http://www.dhbrown.com/dhbrown/OpSysScoreCard.cfm > As far as I can see they only rated products that are UNIX(r) systems. (Yes, before you ask it also pertains to NT. According to the X/Open Group techinically it also could receive the right to be a UNIX(r) if they applied for it and its POSIX functionality were to be found adequate. Now, that's funny. Check the X/Open Group website for details.) This seems to be rather a matter of principle which led them to overlook everything else in the field. They also note that they were not interested in market share, customer satisfaction or whatever, they only rank these OS-es according to their techincal requirements. Also they tout the 64-bit abilities and that is where we -due to the huge user base on the x86 platform- are at a disadvantage, Alpha notwithstanding. Cheers: Szilveszter ADAM -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Szilveszter ADAM * JATE Szeged * email: sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu * * Homepage : none * alternate email: cc@flanker.itl.net.ua * * Finger sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu for PGP key. * * I prefer using the door instead of Windows(tm)... * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 18 7:15: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B441715095 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 07:15:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-040.thuntek.net [207.66.52.40]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA00857; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:14:57 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <385BA4FF.28CB5E5F@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:15:11 -0700 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RC i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Tsai Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: We're No. 1 :) References: <19991218030314.C323@marder-1> <385B0B94.85A74931@thuntek.net> <19991217225705.A20261@futuresouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Tim Tsai wrote: > > > Considering that it took me morew than ten tries to get to the screen > > where I could rate BSD, it is a wonder that we have even that many. > > It is strange the way it is layout - but you just have to click on the > BSD link to rate it. > Doh! and me a web developer, no less. TNX! -- Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 19 16:17:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12C614D57 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:17:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05196; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 19:17:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 19:17:32 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: marc rassbach Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: More press. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG way to go! also, if everyone requests a copy of the source of the modified GNU tar in Veritas' NetBAckup, they would probably freak, and thats what I'm about to do ;) -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Sun, 19 Dec 1999, marc rassbach wrote: > This proves: > http://www.shepherd-express.com/shepherd/20/51/scoop/news.html#Linux > > If we beat the press over the head with the BSD *AND* Linux message, they > respond! > > Go team BSD! > > (perhaps the 2000 glasses should be the self-apointed cry of 'this is the > year of BSD publicity!'?) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 19 22:54:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B126C14E8C for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 22:54:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 11zwgx-000A87-00; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:53:11 +0200 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:53:11 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Alex Kapranoff Cc: "Person, Roderick" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II] Message-ID: <19991220085311.B38843@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA63@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> <19991217210806.B1038@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991217210806.B1038@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su> Organization: Rhodes University Computer Users' Society X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri 1999-12-17 (21:08), Alex Kapranoff wrote: > I think FreeBSD win in being centralized not scattered across the Net. > I believe that every program which is said to run on FreeBSD _should_ be > present in ports tree. So that I don't use some awkward websearch but just > > cd /usr/ports; grep mail INDEX | more How about: cd /usr/ports && make search key=mail *grin* Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 20 21:24:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.198.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD628153A5 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:24:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shadowfx@concentric.net) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.198.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.9.1a/(98/12/15 5.12)) id AAA15381; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:24:16 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from ardor.river.running (ts002d39.col-oh.concentric.net [207.155.205.99]) by newman.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id AAA25377; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:24:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <385E6604.167EB0E7@concentric.net> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:23:16 -0500 From: shadowfx X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pat Lynch Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > oh, the one other thing, Marc suggested we go into advoacting in the > embedded market, where our licensing allows much more freedom. I've heard similar opinions elsewhere. What I really love about free-bsd (asside from the fact that it is a true UNIX, has vnodes and etc.) is how well organized the build tree is. Linux is such a mess. And even Red Hat looks all bits and pieces. Does it do dependancies? If so, you have to work at it. What a pain! Ahh, the beauty of FreeBSD. The obvious works! I go to the location of the product I wish to install. I insert a tarball CD if I have one. I type make. And voila--I'm Alfred E. Newman. It's a piece of cake. So why should I bother with some fancy-schmancy (rather expensive looking) and not very unix looking red-hat os, when I can have: The Pure, the Tested, The "I don't cost you a disk partition every time you want to add more than 135M of swap" Operating sysem, Chuck-ee's in Love, MR. FreeBSD!!! : ) (I'm not an advocate... do I look like an advocate..? 8 } John Barnes > > Anyway, thoughts? opinions? I have a couple suggestions, but nothing I > have the time to take on currently, but I'll post those later. > > -signing off from the Bizarre > > -Pat > > __ > > Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > lynch@bsdunix.net > Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 21 1:55:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 111DA15345 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 01:55:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [204.68.178.39] (helo=softweyr.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 120M1A-00045y-00; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 02:55:44 -0700 Message-ID: <385F4F09.89E53041@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 02:57:29 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: shadowfx Cc: Pat Lynch , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II References: <385E6604.167EB0E7@concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG shadowfx wrote: > > > > > oh, the one other thing, Marc suggested we go into advoacting in the > > embedded market, where our licensing allows much more freedom. If you agree with this, you're going to enjoy next month's Daemons Advocate column. Stay tuned. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 21 10:35:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7DF015458 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:35:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac5.wam.umd.edu (root@rac5.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.145]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27216 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac5.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac5.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA11977 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:35:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by rac5.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11973 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:35:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac5.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:35:49 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Byte/Russia Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Among other items in my (snail) mail this morning was a copy of Byte/Russia. My ability to speak Russian is very low and my ability to write it is even lower. However, on page 76 is a translated version of "The Real FreeBSD" from the September DaemonNews. There are some other things about FreeBSD too, but I am not able to tell what it means :) If anyone speaks Russian well, check it out. -- Jamie Howard To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 22 7:50:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63DA1154F7 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 07:50:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25110; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:48:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:48:57 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: members@funy.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Al Al Al Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG so, a founding member comes home for the holidays.... sure the 1st sounds good as long as I can start moving stuff to my new apartment during the day.... anyway let me know what's up, I'm almost up for a quiet party at the new place except I'm not sure we'll definitely be in by then. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 22 7:53:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18DCE14E2E for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 07:53:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25163 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:53:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:53:43 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: ooooops Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I sent that to the wrong list, meant to go to -chat instead, my humble apologies. I have advocacy on the brain. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 22 16:56: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580291555C; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:55:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA07777; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:26:16 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:26:15 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Byte/Russia Message-ID: <19991223112615.X1316@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 21 December 1999 at 13:35:49 -0500, James Howard wrote: > Among other items in my (snail) mail this morning was a copy of > Byte/Russia. My ability to speak Russian is very low and my ability > to write it is even lower. However, on page 76 is a translated > version of "The Real FreeBSD" from the September DaemonNews. In fact, it's a translation of "UNIX or BSD?" from the June Daemon News (http://www.daemonnews.org/199906/d-advocate.html). You'll note my name at the end on page 81. > There are some other things about FreeBSD too, but I am not able to > tell what it means :) The other main articles are a translation of "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" on page 16 and "ISDN Networking" on page 56. > If anyone speaks Russian well, check it out. Well, that eliminates me :-) But the only other stuff I saw were short news articles on page 91: an ad for the FreeBSDCon, information about reorganizations in NetBSD and the release of 1.4.1 and something about OpenBSD which I don't understand enough to quote. One thing that does impress me about the magazine is the technical detail, which I haven't seen in a US magazine for decades. They also give a surprising amount of attention to UNIX. The magazine is 96 pages, including all ads, and 22 of them are about UNIX. There's an almost total lack of Microsoft (just a single, albeit rather long, article about setting up TCP/IP on Windoze). Very refreshing. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 23 18:26:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD5414BDB; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:26:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac8.wam.umd.edu (root@rac8.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.148]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18754; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:26:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac8.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac8.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA14745; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:26:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by rac8.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14741; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:26:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac8.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:26:17 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Byte/Russia In-Reply-To: <19991223112615.X1316@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > In fact, it's a translation of "UNIX or BSD?" from the June Daemon > News (http://www.daemonnews.org/199906/d-advocate.html). You'll note > my name at the end on page 81. In the copy in my hand, page 81 is smack dead in the middle of an article on Perl (cannot miss Larry Wall and his shirts...). You'll note my name at the end of page 77. :) > The other main articles are a translation of "The Cathedral and the > Bazaar" on page 16 and "ISDN Networking" on page 56. Those are articles on bug reports and notebooks, respectively. I think we are talking about two different issues. I think I said it was in the November issue. Which one do you have? > One thing that does impress me about the magazine is the technical > detail, which I haven't seen in a US magazine for decades. They also > give a surprising amount of attention to UNIX. The magazine is 96 > pages, including all ads, and 22 of them are about UNIX. There's an > almost total lack of Microsoft (just a single, albeit rather long, > article about setting up TCP/IP on Windoze). Very refreshing. Indeed, I was freaking astouned by that. There were some other articles on Linux, which of course, I cannot make out, except for "Linux" stuck in here and there. Definetly my kind of people. :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 23 19:23:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9639C14C0E; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:23:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA22559; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:53:50 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:53:50 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Byte/Russia Message-ID: <19991224135350.K1316@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19991223112615.X1316@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 23 December 1999 at 21:26:17 -0500, James Howard wrote: > On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> In fact, it's a translation of "UNIX or BSD?" from the June Daemon >> News (http://www.daemonnews.org/199906/d-advocate.html). You'll note >> my name at the end on page 81. > > In the copy in my hand, page 81 is smack dead in the middle of an article > on Perl (cannot miss Larry Wall and his shirts...). You'll note my name > at the end of page 77. :) > >> The other main articles are a translation of "The Cathedral and the >> Bazaar" on page 16 and "ISDN Networking" on page 56. > > Those are articles on bug reports and notebooks, respectively. I think we > are talking about two different issues. I think I said it was in the > November issue. Which one do you have? Ah, I was beginning to think I got something wrong here. Yes, this is the October issue. >> One thing that does impress me about the magazine is the technical >> detail, which I haven't seen in a US magazine for decades. They also >> give a surprising amount of attention to UNIX. The magazine is 96 >> pages, including all ads, and 22 of them are about UNIX. There's an >> almost total lack of Microsoft (just a single, albeit rather long, >> article about setting up TCP/IP on Windoze). Very refreshing. > > Indeed, I was freaking astouned by that. There were some other articles > on Linux, which of course, I cannot make out, except for "Linux" stuck in > here and there. Definetly my kind of people. :) Right. Well, there could be more BSD :-) Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 23 21:41:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705F515182; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:41:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (root@rac6.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.146]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00553; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:41:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac6.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA24829; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by rac6.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24825; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:41:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rac6.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:41:26 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Byte/Russia In-Reply-To: <19991224135350.K1316@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > Right. Well, there could be more BSD :-) Always. Since they did take from DaemonNews for both October and November, does anyone know if they did for this month as well? Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message