From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 03:54:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16665 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 03:54:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA16645 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 03:53:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (root@host-209-214-74-99.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.74.99]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA22328; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 06:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA64064; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:10:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: viren@rstcorp.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: home automation, anyone? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:38:29 -0500 (EST)" <199901302038.PAA55647@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> References: <199901302038.PAA55647@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990131071049Z.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:10:49 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Viren R. Shah" Subject: home automation, anyone? Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:38:29 -0500 (EST) > > Is anyone using home automation products with FreeBSD? I know we have > the X10 daemon in the base distribution, and was wondering which > specific products people were using with it. > Also, is X10 the way to go? or are there other competing protocols > that could also be used? > I'm very partial to SeriPlex (http://www.seriplex.org), having been involved with the design of it :-) It hasn't been marketed for home automation, but that isn't for technical reasons. Have a look... Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net > Thanks > Viren > -- > Viren Shah | "You can't trust code that you did not totally > Research Associate, RST Inc. | create yourself. (Especially code from > viren@rstcorp.com | companies that employ people like me.)" > http://www.rstcorp.com/~vshah | - Ken Thompson "Reflections on Trusting Trust" > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 07:25:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09723 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:25:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kirk.NetUnlimited.net (Kirk.netunlimited.net [208.128.132.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA09707 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:25:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brownicm@prokyon.com) Received: from molly.my.domain (Khan-166.netunlimited.net [208.165.3.167]) by Kirk.NetUnlimited.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00725; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:24:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990130144416.Q8473@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:23:12 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Browning To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: English style (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Mikhail Teterin , Poul-Henning Kamp , Sheldon Hearn , "Daniel C. Sobral" , Mark Ovens Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FWIW, the proscription against the split infinitive, if I recall correctly, was introduced sometime in the 19th century. "Scholars" who noted that it was disallowed in Latin felt that English would be improved thereby. Winston Churchill used 'em all the time and addressed the subject, calling it silly. On 30-Jan-99 Greg Lehey wrote: > On Saturday, 30 January 1999 at 4:07:10 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: >> Greg Lehey wrote: >>> On Saturday, 30 January 1999 at 2:50:48 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: >>>> Greg Lehey wrote: >>>>> [moved to chat] >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, 29 January 1999 at 23:50:37 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >>>>>> Sheldon Hearn wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I didn't have a problem reading the sentence, even though you left out >>>>>>> required commas. The only thing that caused a problem was your use of >>>>>>> split infinitive. ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Split infinitive is a urban legend. It has *never* been outlawed in >>>>>> the english language, except for some crazy people in this century >>>>>> and, I think, later last century. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Not according to the OED. It is only in the most recent edition that the >>>> split infinitive is officially recognized as grammatically correct. >>>> >>>> The classic example is Star Trek; "To boldly go.....", until now it >>>> should have been "Boldly to go...", or "To go boldly....". >>>> >>>> Still, what the hell. We all speak American nowadays anyway ;-) >>> >>>> From an authority that the Americans are more likely to accept, I >>> quote the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th Edition, section 2.98 >>> (footnote): >>> >> >> "...that the Americans are more likely to accept..."?. I thought we were >> talking about English?. > > In English, a statement doesn't end with a question mark. But to > quote you: > >>>> Still, what the hell. We all speak American nowadays anyway ;-) > >>> The thirteenth edition of this manual included split infinitives >>> among the examples of ``errors and infelicities'' but tempered the >>> inclusion by adding, in parentheses, that they are ``debatable >>> `error' ''. The term has been dropped from the fourteenth edition >>> because the Press now regards the intelligent and discriminating use >>> of the construction as a legitimate form of expression and nothing >>> writers or editors need feel uneasy about. Indeed, it seems to us >>> that in many cases clarity ad naturalness of expression are best >>> served by a judicious splitting of infinitives. >> >> The official definition of the English language is the OED, so to >> quote an obviously American journal on a point of English grammar is >> inappropriate. > > It's not a journal, it's the definitive style guide for the US. > >> American-English and Australian-English are both derivatives of >> English (I object to the term "British-English"). If Americans have >> considered the split infinitive grammatically correct for many years >> then that is up to them, but in _English_ it has only recently >> become accepted as grammatically correct. > > What I quoted indicates that the situation is similar in the USA. The > thirteenth edition was published in 1982, the fourteenth in 1993. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Chris Browning Date: 31-Jan-99 Time: 10:17:51 Sent by XFMail 1.3 on FreeBSD 2.2.8 "if you believe in Nothing... honey, It believes in you." ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 08:11:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14463 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:11:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA14458 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:11:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.80]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA3A4B for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:11:42 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:20:24 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Unix '98 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK, now what am I (are we) supposed to do with stuff like this? http://www.UNIX-systems.org/unix98.html --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 09:16:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22291 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:16:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22286 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:16:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt4-246.HiWAAY.net [208.166.127.246]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA28432 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:16:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA01210 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:16:41 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199901311716.LAA01210@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: FreeBSD Chat From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Unix '98 In-reply-to: Message from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai of "Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:20:24 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:16:41 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai writes: > OK, > > now what am I (are we) supposed to do with stuff like this? > > http://www.UNIX-systems.org/unix98.html Jordan, quick! Issue a press release claiming the name, "FreeBSD 2000" for FreeBSD 4.0. :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 11:17:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07805 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:17:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0513.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07800 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:17:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA06636 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:17:51 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:17:51 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: From Slashdot... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.progressive-comp.com/Lists/?l=linux-ggi&m=91750053603759&w=2 I'm just curious, but what direction is FreeBSD taking? I just picked up this really nice AGP video card (Creative Graphics Blaster RivaTNT chipset, 16MB of RAM...specs on it look very impressive)... Its barely supported by XFree86, none of the Creative Graphics cards appear to be supported by AccelX...and, with the above notice, it looks like Creative has a whole department of programmers setup to fall behind Linux... ...is FreeBSD destined to be a "server" environment only, with anyone wanting to do any serious graphics or multimedia needing to fall onto the Linux bandwagon? What do we have to do to improve our imagine? Get the "big companies" like Creative to recognize us and provide us with driver support? Or, is this something that really doesn't concern us, as we are trying to fill a totally different niche? Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 11:44:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11505 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:44:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11498 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:44:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.224]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3F29; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:44:17 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:53:02 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: The Hermit Hacker Subject: RE: From Slashdot... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 31-Jan-99 The Hermit Hacker wrote: > What do we have to do to improve our imagine? Get the "big companies" > like Creative to recognize us and provide us with driver support? Or, is > this something that really doesn't concern us, as we are trying to fill a > totally different niche? Funny you start about it Marc... How much is Open Source worth to you? As far as I have been able to gather Creative is unleashing some sort of binary drivers. Not sourcecode. If ye want specs yer still tied to NDA's, at least that's what it used to be. I dunno if they revised this as well for their new tactics. If I may gather from my own experiences, I am a regular and since a short while operator of Undernet's #FreeBSD channel. The amount of new users coming to the channel has at least doubled, mayhaps trippled. I think we're on the right track. Personally I would reject stuff from commercial firms if the stuff they were to provide was in binary form only. That's not what the project is for in my eyes. And I think you are someone who has got to agree on that as well, being one of the headmen of PostGreSQL... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 11:45:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11676 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:45:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11668 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:45:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id LAA14324; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:45:31 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id LAA03205; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:45:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:44:57 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: The Hermit Hacker cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >I'm just curious, but what direction is FreeBSD taking? I just picked up >this really nice AGP video card (Creative Graphics Blaster RivaTNT >chipset, 16MB of RAM...specs on it look very impressive)... The same direction it always has. Should FreeBSD change it's tack because one very cheap, very kickass video card hit the market? Hardly! >Its barely supported by XFree86, none of the Creative Graphics cards >appear to be supported by AccelX...and, with the above notice, it looks >like Creative has a whole department of programmers setup to fall behind >Linux... If this happens and those people are going to write drivers for Linux, then that means that they are going to write drivers for XFree86. Unless the Linux folk have figured out a reason/way to not use X for accelerated video. (It wouldn't suprise me to see Linuxites reimplement X under GPL though using the NIH philosophy.) If they write drivers for Xfree86 then their source will be available. This means that they have written drivers for _free software_ in general, including FreeBSD. >...is FreeBSD destined to be a "server" environment only, with anyone >wanting to do any serious graphics or multimedia needing to fall onto the >Linux bandwagon? FreeBSD is _not_ currently a server only. Also, serious graphics and multimedia has not yet arrived on anything but very expensive proprietary Unices. (e.g. SGI). Gimp is still a toy compare to Photoshop. I run a single user server. You should see people watch as I use KDE and and Word Perfect on the other side of campus. "Hey, what did you do to make NT look like that?" "Oh, that's not NT. That's my unix server running in my bedroom. I am not even using NT right now except to connect to my home computer. I am using my home hard drive and my home processor. It's all very convenient." "Cool!" >What do we have to do to improve our imagine? Get the "big companies" >like Creative to recognize us and provide us with driver support? Or, is >this something that really doesn't concern us, as we are trying to fill a >totally different niche? This would always be good. Let me loosely quote a Jordanism, "If you want to see some work done, then do the work." Also, what is wrong with filling a "totally different niche"? Answer me that! FreeBSD is not Linux. FreeBSD is also not M$. (Stating the obvious, but some people don't seem to recognize this.) FreeBSD fills its niche quite well. FreeBSD continues to improve and add new features. FreeBSD improves on BSD with virtual memory and filesystem improvements. I have two new up and coming converts under my wing for a total of three. The sky is not falling on FreeBSD. This is not written to Mr. Hermit but is a general reply to the original author who is probably not listening. :) Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 11:47:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11835 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:47:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11824 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:47:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16954; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:47:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990131114659.A16869@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:46:59 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: David Kelly , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Unix '98 Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <199901311716.LAA01210@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199901311716.LAA01210@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from David Kelly on Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 11:16:41AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 11:16:41AM -0600, David Kelly wrote: > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai writes: > > OK, > > > > now what am I (are we) supposed to do with stuff like this? > > > > http://www.UNIX-systems.org/unix98.html > > Jordan, quick! Issue a press release claiming the name, "FreeBSD 2000" for > FreeBSD 4.0. :-) Ack! Gag! Please, I just got finished eating. ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 12:22:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15600 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:22:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0513.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA15561 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:21:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA07221; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:21:39 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:21:39 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > >I'm just curious, but what direction is FreeBSD taking? I just picked up > >this really nice AGP video card (Creative Graphics Blaster RivaTNT > >chipset, 16MB of RAM...specs on it look very impressive)... > > The same direction it always has. Should FreeBSD change it's tack because > one very cheap, very kickass video card hit the market? Hardly! cheap it was not...and the reason I posted this is because I don't know *what* "tack" FreeBSD is taking...do we have some sort of "mission statement" out there that I can read through, as to what our mandate is? What audience we are looking at marketing to? If the server market, great, that's what I primarily use it for anyway, but it also means I'm going to have to setup a second machine to do the high-end graphics stuff. Not a big issue, just rather keep it all to one OS... > >Its barely supported by XFree86, none of the Creative Graphics cards > >appear to be supported by AccelX...and, with the above notice, it looks > >like Creative has a whole department of programmers setup to fall behind > >Linux... > > If this happens and those people are going to write drivers for Linux, > then that means that they are going to write drivers for XFree86. Unless > the Linux folk have figured out a reason/way to not use X for accelerated > video. (It wouldn't suprise me to see Linuxites reimplement X under GPL > though using the NIH philosophy.) Obvious, you have not taken the time to go and read what is at the URL that I included in my email...if you had, you would have noticed that what I posted appears to indicated *kernel* drivers for the various video and sound drivers, and in binary only format... One thing that I overlooked, and was brought up on the multimedia list, was that it does mention xBSD systems in a small blurb...but nothing that I would bear much confidence on... > If they write drivers for Xfree86 then their source will be available. > This means that they have written drivers for _free software_ in general, > including FreeBSD. Again, take a second to go read the URL I posted *before* spouting off stuff that you appear to have little knowledge of. The Creative folks are working on, if I'm reading it right, *binary-only* kernel modules, for, again, if I'm understanding correctly, the 3D accelerators and such... > >What do we have to do to improve our imagine? Get the "big companies" > >like Creative to recognize us and provide us with driver support? Or, is > >this something that really doesn't concern us, as we are trying to fill a > >totally different niche? > > This would always be good. Let me loosely quote a Jordanism, "If you want > to see some work done, then do the work." I try and put what I can, where I can...once Applixware is ported over, I will be purchasing that...I just looked at the Metro-X web site, which has their X-server ported to FreeBSD, and *appears* to support the video card that I have, so will be looking at purchasing that... I can't code Video drivers (well, never looked into it, so don't know if I can or not, really) or sound...I don't expect it all for free either. If AccelX supported by video card, I would have ordered it... > Also, what is wrong with filling a "totally different niche"? Answer me > that! Odd question...do you actually *read* the messages you answer, or do you just spew? My question was asked in order to find out *whether* we were trying to fill a totally different niche, not to question whether that was bad or good. I don't much care either way, except that if that is the case, I will continue to use FreeBSD for what I consider to be crucial stuff, namely servers, and start investigating a new machine to do that which FreeBSD can't do. If FreeBSD is going to focus itself on "server applications" and Linux on desktop environments, then so be it...that is all I am asking. From a visibility standpoint, anything new is developed under Linux, and, unfortunately, tends to have Linuxism's included that sometimes make it more difficult to port to anything else (whether that be FreeBSD or Solaris, or...?) It almost feels, at times, that we are trying to play catchup, when we've been around longer, and are more stable :( > The sky is not falling on FreeBSD. I never implied it was...just asked what role/direction it was taking... > This is not written to Mr. Hermit but is a general reply to the original > author who is probably not listening. :) Since I am the original author, and am reading and responding, where do you get the "probably not listening" part? Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 13:32:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24974 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:32:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp1008.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.224.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24969 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:32:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA76056; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:49:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from tim) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:49:55 -0500 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Nadav Eiron Cc: Mark Ovens , James , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Back to school Message-ID: <19990131104955.A75976@mad> References: <36B0211F.E6059DC2@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Nadav Eiron on Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 11:06:33AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 11:06:33AM +0200, Nadav Eiron wrote: > > However, at home most of them use Windows or DOS (mostly because they can > get Borland C for DOS for free, not that Solaris isn't free for students). I noticed here that having to use UNIX at school and for submissions caused cygwin and djgpp to both gain some popularity. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 14:08:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29373 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29367 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:08:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id XAA66233; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:08:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Eric Hodel Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This is outrageous References: <36AF63DE.167EB0E7@i.am> <4.1.19990128215619.00a92d20@genesis.ispace.com> <36B3F0BB.CD142ADE@seattleu.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 31 Jan 1999 23:08:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: Eric Hodel's message of "Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:57:15 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Hodel writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Drew Baxter writes: > > > Mpeg-4 comes out later this year, I'll be interested to find what they > > > 'call' it.. But also if the file sizes are going to drop significantly or > > > not. Right now the average is about 4mb for a song at 128k/44khz/stereo. > > No, the file size is not going to drop. Ever wondered what that "128k" > > part up there means? furrfu. > I think it is bits per second, which equates to the sample rate. 128k > == 44100 kHz, I think. Absolutely not. It's the streaming rate. The compression algorithm is designed to yield a maximum of sound quality at a fixed bit rate; if the sound gets more "compressible" the quality goes up. Consequently, a higher bit rate will allow the encoder to discard less information, yielding better sound. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 14:12:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00193 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:12:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00183 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:12:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id OAA10326; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:12:42 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id OAA05743; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:12:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:12:09 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: The Hermit Hacker cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >> The same direction it always has. Should FreeBSD change it's tack because >> one very cheap, very kickass video card hit the market? Hardly! > >cheap it was not...and the reason I posted this is because I don't know You should check the Diamond Viper 550 Riva TNT AGP. It can be bought for 130 bucks. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 14:55:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05644 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:55:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05639 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:55:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id OAA11194; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:55:20 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id OAA10431; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:55:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:54:47 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: The Hermit Hacker cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >Obvious, you have not taken the time to go and read what is at the URL >Again, take a second to go read the URL I posted *before* spouting off >Odd question...do you actually *read* the messages you answer, or do you >just spew? My question was asked in order to find out *whether* we were >Since I am the original author, and am reading and responding, where do >you get the "probably not listening" part? I read the letter that was sent to -chat. It came from the "Hermit Hacker" in the headers and said something about Marc Fournier at the bottom. I did not know you were the same person. I thought you "Mr. Hermit" had grabbed something written by "Marc Fournier" from Slashdot. I thought that the email was taken from Slashdot and was the full content of the topic at hand. You are correct. My message addressed the comments in the email only and not the URL. I wish I still had your original message so I could see where I came by the above conclusions. I have rarely been anything but gentile on these lists. I am really pretty offended by your retort. I did not insult you are call you names or use invective (spewing, spouting, really?) to criticize your tone. I addressed the positions taken in the email message. I will not be lambasted for expressing my geniune opinion on the matter at hand. I would also like to add that "miscommunications" are as common on the internet as "communications". I think that this exchange counts as the latter case. Now back to the point already in progress... I have commonly gone on record here regarding the "Linux is doing this. What are we going to do about it?" line of discussion. I have been consistent in stating the FreeBSD does a good job at doing that which FreeBSD does regardless of the Linux path. This is something I feel _genuinely_. FreeBSD is truly an excellent product. It is excellent because the -core has a vision and sticks to it. I feel that they have their eye on the horizon and not on the nearby waves. I try to "speak" on behalf of this when the opportunity arises so that people can "hear" an alternate view and perhaps conclude that, "Yeah, FreeBSD is good stuff and will continue to be good stuff and Linux success will not capsize our efforts." To make an allegory to FreeBSD/Linux. I can't understand why people are so envious about the favor that Able brings by his efforts. Shall we engage ourselves in Cain's folly? Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 15:35:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11803 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:35:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0513.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11797 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:35:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA10861; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:35:16 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:35:16 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > >> The same direction it always has. Should FreeBSD change it's tack because > >> one very cheap, very kickass video card hit the market? Hardly! > > > >cheap it was not...and the reason I posted this is because I don't know > > You should check the Diamond Viper 550 Riva TNT AGP. It can be bought for > 130 bucks. With the US->Canada Exchange rate...that comes out to be about what I paid for the one I have :) Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 15:47:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13161 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:47:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13132 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:47:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA15097; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:16:23 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id KAA61683; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:16:21 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:16:21 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Chris Browning Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Mikhail Teterin , Poul-Henning Kamp , Sheldon Hearn , "Daniel C. Sobral" , Mark Ovens Subject: Re: English style (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) Message-ID: <19990201101621.Z8473@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990130144416.Q8473@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Browning on Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 10:23:12AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 31 January 1999 at 10:23:12 -0500, Chris Browning wrote: > On 30-Jan-99 Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Saturday, 30 January 1999 at 4:07:10 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: >>> American-English and Australian-English are both derivatives of >>> English (I object to the term "British-English"). If Americans have >>> considered the split infinitive grammatically correct for many years >>> then that is up to them, but in _English_ it has only recently >>> become accepted as grammatically correct. >> >> What I quoted indicates that the situation is similar in the USA. The >> thirteenth edition was published in 1982, the fourteenth in 1993. > > FWIW, the proscription against the split infinitive, if I recall correctly, was > introduced sometime in the 19th century. "Scholars" who noted that it was > disallowed in Latin felt that English would be improved thereby. Disallowed in Latin? How could it be possible in Latin (or most other European languages, for that matter)? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 15:53:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13994 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:53:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0513.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13986 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:53:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA10982; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:53:03 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:53:03 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Now back to the point already in progress... > > I have commonly gone on record here regarding the "Linux is doing this. > What are we going to do about it?" line of discussion. I have been > consistent in stating the FreeBSD does a good job at doing that which > FreeBSD does regardless of the Linux path. This is still the point that I'm trying to find out...what is it that we are trying to "do a good job at"? If I liked/wanted Linux, I'd switch...that is not the point of this thread. The point is what do we consider to be our niche? What do/can we do to improve that? You mentioned converting a couple of ppl over to FreeBSD...you aren't the only one who has done this...I've done it for several systems being used by an ISP, and continue to do so for the rest of their systems. I've done it with a few students at the University I work at... ...by and far, the *hardest* ones to convert over at the ones that see Linux and the fact that Gaming companies are starting to do some serious games for Linux...us, we have a very good Linux emulation, but, like everything else that is 'emulated', it can only be soooo good. Look at Solaris...Sun just recently announced they were going to start working on Linux emulation also...nothing about xBSD, only Linux...where are failing (if we are failing?) as far as users are concerned? I'm not afraid to *pay* for something, but how do we convince the companies out there developing software that there are ppl willing to pay for the software? Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 16:03:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16106 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:03:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16067 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:03:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA07492; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:03:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990131165225.045c7800@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:53:45 -0700 To: The Hermit Hacker , "Jason C. Wells" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: From Slashdot... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:53 PM 1/31/99 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >...by and far, the *hardest* ones to convert over at the ones that see >Linux and the fact that Gaming companies are starting to do some serious >games for Linux...us, we have a very good Linux emulation, but, like >everything else that is 'emulated', it can only be soooo good. The hardest ones to convert are the ones who see business opportunities. They see Linux as having achieved critical mass and are following the crowd. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 16:17:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18637 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:17:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18632 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:17:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA79766; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:17:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Unix '98 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:20:24 +0100." Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:17:52 -0800 Message-ID: <79764.917828272@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Absolutely nothing. What the Open Group does has long since ceased to be relevant to the Unix community. - Jordan > OK, > > now what am I (are we) supposed to do with stuff like this? > > http://www.UNIX-systems.org/unix98.html > > > --- > Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, > asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... > Network/Security Specialist > *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 16:19:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18938 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:19:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18931 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:19:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08758; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:23:48 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990201112347.B8689@caamora.com.au> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:23:47 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from The Hermit Hacker on Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 07:53:03PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 07:53:03PM -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > > Now back to the point already in progress... > > > > I have commonly gone on record here regarding the "Linux is doing this. > > What are we going to do about it?" line of discussion. I have been > > consistent in stating the FreeBSD does a good job at doing that which > > FreeBSD does regardless of the Linux path. > > This is still the point that I'm trying to find out...what is it that we > are trying to "do a good job at"? If I liked/wanted Linux, I'd > switch...that is not the point of this thread. The point is what do we > consider to be our niche? What do/can we do to improve that? > > You mentioned converting a couple of ppl over to FreeBSD...you aren't the > only one who has done this...I've done it for several systems being used > by an ISP, and continue to do so for the rest of their systems. I've done > it with a few students at the University I work at... > > ...by and far, the *hardest* ones to convert over at the ones that see > Linux and the fact that Gaming companies are starting to do some serious > games for Linux...us, we have a very good Linux emulation, but, like > everything else that is 'emulated', it can only be soooo good. last i heard our linux emulation had the same reputation as suns wabi and ibm's winos2 box .. all three better more stable and relible that the original, so what is wrong with that ? i have one question .. why do WE want, errrr, why should WE convert anybody. choosing an perating system is a needs, requirements and resourseces based descision making process .. zealotry takes, should take, no part in it .. this is if it is a real work horse system not controlled by tha vagaries of at home fashion statements. > Look at Solaris...Sun just recently announced they were going to start > working on Linux emulation also...nothing about xBSD, only Linux...where > are failing (if we are failing?) as far as users are concerned? > > I'm not afraid to *pay* for something, but how do we convince the > companies out there developing software that there are ppl willing to pay > for the software? easy marc .. get us to write to those companies and ask fro 'tere developing software' and or stop whinginf about how free everyting isn't and or go out and buy the stuff that is ported to freebsd. with regards to writing, i mean letter head and handwriting .. in todays over hyped waste of bandwidth tcp/ip a good old fashioned letter is still worth more than a thousand or even a million emails. what would be even more valuable is company letter head .. now this assumes that this is were we are are wanting to go, but, as we are not doing it it seems pretty obvious to me that we don;t want to go in that direction, simple, yes ? people only do and get what they want to do and get .. this is one of teh most fundamantal laws of human existance. anyway its time to take the little yellow ones so i'd better go lay down. regards jonathan, finding out crusading costs too much. -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 16:33:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20266 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:33:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA20261 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:33:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA79878; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:33:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: The Hermit Hacker cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:17:51 -0400." Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:33:49 -0800 Message-ID: <79876.917829229@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > ...is FreeBSD destined to be a "server" environment only, with anyone > wanting to do any serious graphics or multimedia needing to fall onto the > Linux bandwagon? Yes. Interest in the desktop has been so marginal as to make it no longer worth even thinking about and I think it's time to realize that the server is our bread and butter. Everyone talks about how nice desktop support would be but nobody DOES anything and, as a result, every initiative to support the desktop more seriously in FreeBSD has been a dead loss. The desktop contest went down without so much as a single decent entry, XiG sold about 3 copies of CDE for FreeBSD when they made a play for the (non-existent) FreeBSD desktop market (and don't tell me this was just anti-CDE attitudes in action since they sold thousands of copies for Linux) and the attempt to bring 3DFX support to FreeBSD has been so long in coming that I'm no longer even waiting for it, etc. If I wanted a Unix machine purely for the desktop today, I'd install Linux. It has all the multimedia frobs, support for exotic 3D gfx and sound cards, desktop applications, you name it. FreeBSD has a pool of about 50 users who feel about as strongly about the desktop, it seems, and that's just not enough to reach critical mass, especially when those users are not also software developers who can actually write drivers and improve existing support. Do I sound bitter about this? Perhaps just a bit. For whatever reason, the multimedia developers have not seen fit to actually develop multimedia support in FreeBSD and, as a result, we merely have a lot of users milling around asking when their hardware is going to work. That's not a winning situation, and it's my hope that perhaps DVD support will be the one thing we can do which allows us to catch at least the trailing edge of the wave since it's also the one thing that people who use X for little more than popping up lots of xterms (as most FreeBSD users, including myself, seem to do in a server-centric environment) will want. Movies have universal appeal. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 16:33:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20520 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:33:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA20515 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:33:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA07763; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:33:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990131170907.043afa10@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:09:58 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Unix '98 Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <79764.917828272@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's because the "Open Group" isn't. The purpose of the UNIX '98 "standard" is to *exclude* competitors. --Brett At 04:17 PM 1/31/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Absolutely nothing. What the Open Group does has long since ceased to >be relevant to the Unix community. > >- Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 16:42:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21342 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:42:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA21333 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:42:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA15704; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:42:06 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990201114202.31405@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:42:02 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from The Hermit Hacker on Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 07:53:03PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 07:53:03PM -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > This is still the point that I'm trying to find out...what is it that we > are trying to "do a good job at"? We do whatever we feel like, if and when we feel like doing it, because we enjoy it and/or somehow gain from doing it. Nobody pays anyone to do what they don't want to do, and that's part of the reason why we do such a good job. As our society becomes more and more Ferengi-like many people find it hard to accept that this approach can work, but the proof is right here in front of us. When our needs change, our actions change, and we cause FreeBSD to change to meet those new needs. No amount of flowery mission shatement is going to change what really happens. In fact, if anything, slimy motivational claptrap which might be popular in the USA would cause FreeBSD to lose face in countries like Australia where we have a deep distrust of rhetoric. At best we regard such things as comedy here. Sure, if someone simply said "we're mainly concerned with " and others believed it, they might be inspired to push FreeBSD towards excellence in that area (to the possible detriment of other areas). More likely other people would disagree on priorities, and that is a good thing. If I had the floor, FreeBSD would continue to improve as the leading netris platform. The way we do achieve particular long and medium range goals is to set up projects, such as that for the Alpha port, so that people with similar goals can coordinate their efforts and ensure quality outcomes. Unless I'm missing something this does seem to work. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 16:47:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21688 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:47:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA21683 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:47:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA79928; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:48:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: The Hermit Hacker cc: "Jason C. Wells" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:53:03 -0400." Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:48:25 -0800 Message-ID: <79926.917830105@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is still the point that I'm trying to find out...what is it that we > are trying to "do a good job at"? If I liked/wanted Linux, I'd The server. The server the server the server. Have I made the point clearly enough? :-) Our slogan is also "the power to serve", and while I think that doesn't exactly substitute for a mission statement, it does give a fairly reasonable indication of where we're headed and what we think our primary strengths are. > ...by and far, the *hardest* ones to convert over at the ones that see > Linux and the fact that Gaming companies are starting to do some serious > games for Linux...us, we have a very good Linux emulation, but, like Gaming users are not our focus and never will be. To be honest, I also think the Linux games (and perhaps the entire multimedia) market is a flash in the pan. If I want to play games, I turn to a Windows box and that's a trend which is only going to increase as the gaming public gets jaded with everything that's hot now and demands ever more fancy 3D, audio and game controller hardware. I stated earlier that if I wanted a multimedia desktop, I'd run Linux. If I want a game machine, however, I'd run Windows. I can't GET any of the decent games for Linux and if you look very closely at that market, you'll see it's 90% comprised of folks porting old, clapped-out games for which the manufacturers no longer see any significant value. In other words, it's sort of the elephant's graveyard for gaming. > Look at Solaris...Sun just recently announced they were going to start > working on Linux emulation also...nothing about xBSD, only Linux...where > are failing (if we are failing?) as far as users are concerned? Why would they want to do BSD emulation? Where are all the BSD apps that Solaris users want to run? I think you're rather missing the point here as far as how things are driven in this industry. > I'm not afraid to *pay* for something, but how do we convince the > companies out there developing software that there are ppl willing to pay > for the software? By being willing to pay for it, plain and simple. So far, those few companies who've dived into the FreeBSD multimedia market have gotten burned by very poor sales and that's the "convincing" that needed to happen but didn't. I'm hoping that Applixware for FreeBSD sells a few copies, of course, but I don't expect it to be anything close to what's sold for Linux. It's more of a checkbox item so that we're not totally without an office suite (those loads-of-xterms X users do also occasionally need to format and print things in fancy ways). Now given all of that, we have two choices: We can sit and sulk about the state of the FreeBSD desktop market (been there, done that) or we can realize that maybe our strengths lie elsewhere and we need to focus on our strenghts (doing that too :). Frankly, I think their Unix on the desktop strategy is fundamentally a losing one anyway and that the Linux folks are chasing a brass ring that's only receding ever more rapidly into the distance. Sure, it gets them lots of users in the short term since the great percentage of people run desktop machines, but it also leaves them increasingly vulnerable to a Microsoft which is very very strong on the desktop and has shown itself to take an exceeding dim view of competition. I see more "standards" like DirectX and DirectAudio progressively pushing Linux out of what little niche it has on the desktop, at which time many of those casting the Linux protest vote will either switch back to Windows again or find a stronger protest vote in desktop-oriented OSes like BeOS. Be's desktop is pretty slick, albeit very early technology, and if I had to run a non-microsoft commercial desktop environment then that would probably be it. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 16:47:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21830 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:47:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0513.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA21823 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:47:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA11263; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:47:20 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:47:20 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-Reply-To: <79876.917829229@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > ...is FreeBSD destined to be a "server" environment only, with anyone > > wanting to do any serious graphics or multimedia needing to fall onto the > > Linux bandwagon? > > Yes. Interest in the desktop has been so marginal as to make it no > longer worth even thinking about and I think it's time to realize that > the server is our bread and butter. Thank you...this answers my question perfectly... > Everyone talks about how nice desktop support would be but nobody DOES > anything and, as a result, every initiative to support the desktop > more seriously in FreeBSD has been a dead loss. The desktop contest > went down without so much as a single decent entry, XiG sold about 3 > copies of CDE for FreeBSD when they made a play for the (non-existent) > FreeBSD desktop market (and don't tell me this was just anti-CDE > attitudes in action since they sold thousands of copies for Linux) and Just curious, but I've used CDE on Solaris, and KDE on FreeBSD, and tend to prefer KDE for two reasons: it does everything I want, and its free. I'd throw in "less bloated" also, but I'm not sure if CDE's "bloat" is a Solaris problem or CDE... > the attempt to bring 3DFX support to FreeBSD has been so long in > coming that I'm no longer even waiting for it, etc. Forgive my ignorance, but 3DFx support...is that a kernel thing? Seperate from X-Windows? > Do I sound bitter about this? Perhaps just a bit. For whatever > reason, the multimedia developers have not seen fit to actually > develop multimedia support in FreeBSD and, as a result, we merely have > a lot of users milling around asking when their hardware is going to > work. Just curious, but what is happening as far as modularizing(sp?) the kernel and its drivers is concerned? One of the things that a friend of mine raves about, as far as Linux is concerned, is the fact that, without having to reboot his machine, he can install (assuming hot-swappable hardware) a Adaptec controller, type a command, and the driver is included into the kernel...would something like that make it *easier* to ports drivers over from, say, Linux? As long as the API's are reasonably consistent, I would think this would be easier...no? Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 16:58:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22952 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:58:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22947 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:58:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA79983; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:59:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: The Hermit Hacker cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:47:20 -0400." Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:59:22 -0800 Message-ID: <79981.917830762@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Just curious, but I've used CDE on Solaris, and KDE on FreeBSD, and tend > to prefer KDE for two reasons: it does everything I want, and its free. I don't think this is apropos. If that were the sole criteria then the Linux market wouldn't have moved any CDEs since they've had a working KDE longer than we have. Clearly, somebody out there in Linux land wants a commercial desktop. Just as clearly, few people (3?!) in FreeBSD do, at least enough to pay for it. > Forgive my ignorance, but 3DFx support...is that a kernel thing? Seperate > from X-Windows? Yes. > Just curious, but what is happening as far as modularizing(sp?) the kernel > and its drivers is concerned? One of the things that a friend of mine That effort proceeds nicely, but I doubt it will have much effect on the multimedia picture. > into the kernel...would something like that make it *easier* to ports > drivers over from, say, Linux? As long as the API's are reasonably No. Not really. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 17:03:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23693 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:03:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23687 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:03:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id TAA21679; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:03:36 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990131190335.J16540@futuresouth.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:03:35 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... References: <79876.917829229@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <79876.917829229@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 04:33:49PM -0800 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 04:33:49PM -0800, a little birdie told me that Jordan K. Hubbard remarked > > Everyone talks about how nice desktop support would be but nobody DOES > anything and, as a result, every initiative to support the desktop > more seriously in FreeBSD has been a dead loss. The desktop contest > went down without so much as a single decent entry, XiG sold about 3 Well, I DID look through the rules etc for that... but I couldn't see how I would package as a 'theme' my beautiful clean efficient flexible TWM setup (even now, with it's spiffy new perl backend)... And yes, I DO pop up a lot of xterms. 7:03PM up 31 days, 20:07, 53 users, load averages: 0.29, 0.28, 0.33 --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 17:34:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28136 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:34:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0513.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28126 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:34:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA12091; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:32:33 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:32:33 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Desktop vs Server (Was: Re: From Slashdot...) In-Reply-To: <19990131190335.J16540@futuresouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 04:33:49PM -0800, a little birdie told me > that Jordan K. Hubbard remarked > > > > Everyone talks about how nice desktop support would be but nobody DOES > > anything and, as a result, every initiative to support the desktop > > more seriously in FreeBSD has been a dead loss. The desktop contest > > went down without so much as a single decent entry, XiG sold about 3 > > Well, I DID look through the rules etc for that... but I couldn't see > how I would package as a 'theme' my beautiful clean efficient flexible > TWM setup (even now, with it's spiffy new perl backend)... > > And yes, I DO pop up a lot of xterms. > 7:03PM up 31 days, 20:07, 53 users, load averages: 0.29, 0.28, 0.33 Ouch, I thought i was bad: > uptime 9:31PM up 46 days, 11:41, 36 users, load averages: 1.03, 1.01, 1.00 Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 17:43:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29247 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:43:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29241 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:43:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.nws.net) Received: from pechter.nws.net (bg-tc-ppp22.monmouth.com [209.191.60.23]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA05059; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:43:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.nws.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) id UAA34329; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:41:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199902010141.UAA34329@pechter.nws.net> Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-Reply-To: <79876.917829229@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jan 31, 1999 4:33:49 pm" To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:41:28 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: pechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If I wanted a Unix machine purely for the desktop today, I'd install > Linux. It has all the multimedia frobs, support for exotic 3D gfx and > sound cards, desktop applications, you name it. FreeBSD has a pool of > about 50 users who feel about as strongly about the desktop, it seems, > and that's just not enough to reach critical mass, especially when > those users are not also software developers who can actually write > drivers and improve existing support. I spent two days at work doing that. No luck. Intermittant keyboard lockups and SCSI problems with the 2842 disk controller with Caldera 1.3. Better, but not quite right with Red Hat. Booted FreeBSD. Up in two hours. I'd like to see CDE up on it so it would match in with the Solaris stuff at work. It actually might have more desktop penetration then. However, the CDE costs too much for me to invest in it to show the management on spec. It also is priced out of range for my house. I did pick up cheap Moo-tiff Motif for home, though. Works pretty well with stuff, but now I've gone 3.0-STABLE and ELF so I may have to swallow and repurchase... > > - Jordan > Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 18:03:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01091 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:03:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01085 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:03:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18403; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:03:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd018305; Sun Jan 31 19:03:14 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA15362; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:02:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902010202.TAA15362@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Unix '98 To: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 02:02:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai" at Jan 31, 99 05:20:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > OK, > > now what am I (are we) supposed to do with stuff like this? > > http://www.UNIX-systems.org/unix98.html Rejoice that some version of BSD actually qualifies? http://www.opengroup.org/regproducts/ncm0.htm NCI uses NetBSD for the clients and FreeBSD for the servers. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 18:33:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04700 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:33:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mtiwmhc04.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc04.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA04694 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:33:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from furgesl@balrog.ucs.uindy.edu) From: furgesl@balrog.ucs.uindy.edu Received: from phaser.indy.net ([12.75.196.239]) by mtiwmhc04.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with ESMTP id <19990201023334.DPJP16330@phaser.indy.net> for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 02:33:34 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phaser.indy.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA21103 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:32:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:32:35 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: stefanie@kcfhome.my.domain To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: English style (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From another source: In the opinion of a high school English teacher, the split infinitive is not acceptable in academic writing; however, it is considered grammatically correct. To encourage young writers to advance their writing "maturity", the split infinitive, contractions, and the use of passive verbs are not permitted. (Along with many others) According to "Woe Is I" by Patricia T. O'Connner: The truth is that the phrase "split infinitive" is misleading. Since *to* isn't really part of the infinitive, there's nothing to split. A sentence often sounds better when the *to* is close to the infinitive: *Violet decided to ask for a raise*. But there's no harm in separating them by putting a descriptive word or two in between: *Violet decided to bravely ask for a raise*. Writers of English have been merrily "splitting" infinitives since the 1300's, and it was considered acceptable until the mid-nineteenth century, when grammar books--notably Henry Alford's *Plea for the Queen's English*--started calling it a crime. (Some linguists trace the taboo to the Victorians' slavish fondness for Latin, a language in which you *can't* divide an infinitive.) This "rule" was popular for half a century, until leading grammarians debunked it. Stefanie > >From an authority that the Americans are more likely to accept, I > quote the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th Edition, section 2.98 > (footnote): > > The thirteenth edition of this manual included split infinitives > among the examples of ``errors and infelicities'' but tempered the > inclusion by adding, in parentheses, that they are ``debatable > `error' ''. The term has been dropped from the fourteenth edition > because the Press now regards the intelligent and discriminating use > of the construction as a legitimate form of expression and nothing > writers or editors need feel uneasy about. Indeed, it seems to us > that in many cases clarity ad naturalness of expression are best > served by a judicious splitting of infinitives. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 18:42:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05485 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:42:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05471 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:42:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24268; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:42:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd024146; Sun Jan 31 19:42:15 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA17102; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:41:50 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902010241.TAA17102@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: From Slashdot... To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 02:41:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: scrappy@hub.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <79876.917829229@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 31, 99 04:33:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Everyone talks about how nice desktop support would be but nobody DOES > anything and, as a result, every initiative to support the desktop > more seriously in FreeBSD has been a dead loss. The desktop contest > went down without so much as a single decent entry, XiG sold about 3 > copies of CDE for FreeBSD when they made a play for the (non-existent) > FreeBSD desktop market (and don't tell me this was just anti-CDE > attitudes in action since they sold thousands of copies for Linux) and > the attempt to bring 3DFX support to FreeBSD has been so long in > coming that I'm no longer even waiting for it, etc. The people I'm aware of who use FreeBSD as a serious desktop are using KDE. It complies with open standards, and has the disctinct advantages over CDE both of not costing anything, and of being a full CORBA-based implementation, by those rare birds in the free software community, Professionals Who Know What The Hell They Are Doing And Know How To Do It Quickly And Well(tm). CDE is very much a dead end; the only useful pieces that came out of CDE are the freely usable parts: the specifications and the style guides. I think the desktop contest went down so badly because it was a phenomenally uninteresting thing to hack on. I personnaly didn't get involved because of the politics of layered software in FreeBSD; it's basically impossible to get FreeBSD to incorporate the technology needed to layer software; for a desktop, this is a System V style rc structure. It's just not worthwhile working on something that's supposedly layered, but would require the install from hell to get working if the powers-that-be didn't incorporate support for it in the monolithic system startup and config files. It isn't really worth it to me unless the reboot after the install results in a graphical login. You might want to rehold the contest, if you can promise that the winner's code will go on the CDROM as something other than a port, and that the components necessary to easily make it the default view of the system were included in the system startup files as a switch that can be flipped. If not, you probably don't want to rehold it, since you'll get the same lukewarm response the first contest got. The first thing that has to happen is from the URL that started this thread: * xBSD support. All the userspace GGI code is designed to be portable and should run quite well on xBSD, but AFAIK KGI drivers cannot be currently run on xBSD. There are no license issues as KGI and its drivers are not GPLed, so that is not the problem. Rather, xBSD does not have the fbdev driver system and the next release of KGI is not done yet. If these problems can be fixed (not by me), all of this should work on xBSD as well. FreeBSD has to be willing to integrate code that's not that interesting to the core/committers who, probably because others migrated away, are predominantly server weenies, not desktop weenies. Anyway, that's my take on it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 19:24:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09549 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:24:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09543 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:24:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04646; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:24:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd004564; Sun Jan 31 20:24:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA18580; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:24:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902010324.UAA18580@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: From Slashdot... To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 03:24:12 +0000 (GMT) Cc: scrappy@hub.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <79926.917830105@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 31, 99 04:48:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I feel like I'm picking on Jordan... it's not intentional. 8-(. > The server. The server the server the server. Have I made the > point clearly enough? :-) > > Our slogan is also "the power to serve", and while I think that > doesn't exactly substitute for a mission statement, it does give a > fairly reasonable indication of where we're headed and what we think > our primary strengths are. And look how well focusing on the server side of things, after giving up on the desktop, has been for UNIX, in general. Now that Microsoft is pushing NT hard for the server market, where will UNIX go next, when they give that up? All of us UNIX people are what Geoffrey Moore calls "innovators", "visionaries", and "technology enthusiasts" -- basically, the first people to adopt new stuff. What we seem to be ignoring is that the technology adoption life cycle tells us that the majority of customers are in the early and late majorities, who buy products not because they smart, sexy, or even fast. They buy them because they do a job, and because whoever is behind them can be trusted to be around a long time. The late adopters have even more requirements for what's called "A Whole Product"; they require that there be a service industry grown up around their market segment before they will consider buying into a product. If we keep looking for a deux ex machina to come along and save UNIX's butt, then we'll have a long wait. The hype behind Linux is just that. They are in the same boat. The *one* thing that Linux might have going for it is if the "rebate" thing comes to pass. If that happens, and, as a number of lawyers have suggested, you can "opt out" of the license at a later date for a refund because of initial lack of choice, then maybe it can make it to the mainstream (imagine a company that is cash strapped and has 1500 PC's running Windows; if it could switch them all to Linux, and Microsoft would pay them 150,000 to do it...). > > Look at Solaris...Sun just recently announced they were going to start > > working on Linux emulation also...nothing about xBSD, only Linux...where > > are failing (if we are failing?) as far as users are concerned? > > Why would they want to do BSD emulation? Where are all the BSD apps > that Solaris users want to run? I think you're rather missing the > point here as far as how things are driven in this industry. I agree. They are only doing it at all because of the press coverage and customer good will it buys them. Same for the recent announcement by HP that they will offer customers Linux on their HP Workstation purchases as an OS option. If someone is really concerned with Solaris running BSD emulation, there's a sure-fire way to get it: write it yourself and give it to them. That'll only work well if the BSD ABI's don't mutate as much as they have been lately (same for Linux: they will buy their good will, and having bought it, when Linux's ABI runs out from under SCO and Sun, they won't chase it). Actually, this whole Linux ABI thing could result in a serious backlash against Sun and SCO. If you're a UNIX developer, and you want to write an app that will run in as many places as possible, whose ABI is going to be your native ABI? That's why it's always been worthwhile for the BSD folks to try and keep a uniform ABI (but of couse, BSDI had to "differentiate" their product and lock their customers in), AND for them to do the job of making Linux run BSD binaries. A concerted effort to make every platform capable of running FreeBSD binaries could do a hell of a lot more to get widespread native FreeBSD applications than *any* amount of letter writing or hand wringing ever will. > > I'm not afraid to *pay* for something, but how do we convince the > > companies out there developing software that there are ppl willing to pay > > for the software? > > By being willing to pay for it, plain and simple. So far, those few > companies who've dived into the FreeBSD multimedia market have gotten > burned by very poor sales and that's the "convincing" that needed to > happen but didn't. Paying for it up front helps. One friend of mine got the Linux ball rolling at Netscape by calling them up and convincing them to put in a method whereby he could pay for his Netscape copy for Linux. He'd only pay if they'd account it as a Linux sale (they were more than willing to take his money and account it as a Windows sale or a Solaris sale, but this did not satisfy him). > Now given all of that, we have two choices: We can sit and sulk about > the state of the FreeBSD desktop market (been there, done that) or we > can realize that maybe our strengths lie elsewhere and we need to > focus on our strenghts (doing that too :). It's be nice if we got the hell out of the huddle wherein we've tied everyone's shoe laces together, such that none of us can run ahead and scout the territory, while we're at it. I think it's time to get some non-technical people involved, and actually have the technical people yield them some power. At a bare minimum, there *have* to be people who like to do marketing for marketing's sake, if there are people who like to code for coding's sake. > Frankly, I think their Unix on the desktop strategy is fundamentally a > losing one anyway and that the Linux folks are chasing a brass ring > that's only receding ever more rapidly into the distance. Sure, it > gets them lots of users in the short term since the great percentage > of people run desktop machines, but it also leaves them increasingly > vulnerable to a Microsoft which is very very strong on the desktop and > has shown itself to take an exceeding dim view of competition. It doesn't matter. People hate Microsoft. People hate the fact that Bill has more money than God (actually, they hate the fact that Bill has more money than them, but they want to make the hate God's fault). It's all well and good to talk about sticking to your knitting (doing what you know you are good at instead of something else), but the reality is that just because Microsoft is good at one thing doesn't mean that they're not going to be able to get good at *your* thing in time. And don't kid yourself about them not leveraging the fact that they have a lock on the desktop to get servers. To truly put the fear of God into you, here's a little something from the Office 2000 prerelease MSDN documentation: Note: Microsoft Office requires you to enter a 25-digit product key during installation. This product key is XXXXX-XXXXX-XXXXX-XXXXX-XXXXX. If you use the default product key, you will be prompted to register this prerelease copy of Office with Microsoft during your first 50 work sessions of any of the Office programs. You can do this by using either the Internet or e-mail. We recommend that you use the Internet method to register. The Registration Wizard will guide you through the steps. Any bets on whether the the Registration Wizard will be shipping on standard *2000 products from Microsoft? Any bets on what Internet service it will try to hook you up with if you attempt to do "Internet or e-mail" based registration? Any guess at what list of ISP's they're going to use? Any guess at what OS you'll have to run on your servers to become a "Microsoft Certified ISP"? Any guess on if that will be sold as "Certified For Our Customer's Protection"? Have you got your "Microsoft Certified System Administrator" certificate on your wall yet, so that those ISP's can give you work without blowing their own certification (or their licenses)? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 19:38:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11157 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:38:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11152 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id TAA11762; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:38:25 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id TAA11073; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:38:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 03:37:54 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Terry Lambert cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: <199902010241.TAA17102@usr04.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: >It isn't really worth it to me unless the reboot after the >install results in a graphical login. This is good! >You might want to rehold the contest, if you can promise that the >winner's code will go on the CDROM as something other than a port, >and that the components necessary to easily make it the default >view of the system were included in the system startup files as >a switch that can be flipped. If not, you probably don't want to I think that the X desktop doesn't have to be too complicated. KDE out of the box or FVWM2 with a slicker rc file would be sufficient for new users who _need_ something to click on. I also think the GUI is mostly important to newbies as oldbies can/will do GUI as they please. This was my vision, which, I never submitted. Patch X with entries in .xsession for Fvwm2. Run XF86Setup. Run X, run fvwm2 with a nicer config than that stupid purple thing. Put the .fvwm2rc and .xsession in /usr/share/skel permanently. Since then I have installed KDE. I propose this. Let's not get too fancy. Let's not worry about NIH. Let's endorse KDE and give option to install (via sysinstall) the K Desktop Environment. (Yes, I know that users can already do this if they know what they are looking for. Put a more visible hook for KDE where it is more easily seen for newbies. "Would you like to use FreeBSD's default graphical desktop? It's very nice.") Wham bam! One decision and the whole thing is decided and done with. New users get eased into Unix. Experienced users can go on using customized fvwm2 as I do. An easy to use and very nice GUI exists for FreeBSD. No hacking required. Here is the million dollar question: Do we want to plug KDE as the default GUI for FreeBSD? I say let's do it. It requires no change in direction for the FreeBSD project. I know Jordan said "server server server" and I completely respect that. FreeBSD doesn't have to become desktop-centric _AT ALL_. The KDE people can do it for us. I am certain that KDE will help new users. It appeals to the FreeBSD desktop people, all 50 of us non-hackers who love FreeBSD yet still can't program their own .bash_profile. The KDE issue that I raise right now is (to me) a no brainer. KDE, KDE, KDE. Do you really wanna jump? Do you? Common let's do it! (P.S. I hope I hear not one word about the GPL. Also, I left out GNOME as it is still beta. I will say this. The GNOME people seem to have a more platform independent philosophy. Perhaps in time.) Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 20:03:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13192 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:03:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13179 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:03:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA09611; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:03:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990131205115.0450f530@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:53:33 -0700 To: "Jason C. Wells" , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199902010241.TAA17102@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:37 AM 2/1/99 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >(P.S. I hope I hear not one word about the GPL. Also, I left out GNOME as >it is still beta. I will say this. The GNOME people seem to have a more >platform independent philosophy. Perhaps in time.) I hope it's OK if you hear *one* word about the GPL. And this is it. Given the problems the KDE people have had with the GPL, it's time to approach them and ask them to consider relicensing it for FreeBSD under the two-clause Berkeley license. They might be delighted to, after the hell they've endured from Red Hat, Debian, and the GPL hard-liners. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 20:11:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14072 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:11:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr164328-a.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.112.125.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14063 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:11:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: (from norn@localhost) by norn.ca.eu.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id UAA03781; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990131205115.0450f530@mail.lariat.org> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:11:04 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: cpiazza@home.net From: Chris Piazza To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 Brett Glass wrote: :> I hope it's OK if you hear *one* word about the GPL. And this is it. Given :> the problems the KDE people have had with the GPL, it's time to approach :> them and ask them to consider relicensing it for FreeBSD under the :> two-clause Berkeley license. They might be delighted to, after the hell :> they've endured from Red Hat, Debian, and the GPL hard-liners. :> :> --Brett Glass :> :> Weren't the problems they were having with GNU advocates mainly because of the QT license? -- Chris Piazza Abbotsford, BC, Canada cpiazza@home.net finger norn@norn.ca.eu.org for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 20:20:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15252 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:20:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oitunix.oit.umass.edu (nscs58p19.remote.umass.edu [128.119.181.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15171 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:19:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gp@oitunix.oit.umass.edu) Received: (from gp@localhost) by oitunix.oit.umass.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id XAA91640 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:19:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gp) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:13:06 -0500 From: Greg Pavelcak To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: English style (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) (fwd) Message-ID: <19990131231306.A64489@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from furgesl@balrog.ucs.uindy.edu on Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 09:32:35PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 09:32:35PM -0500, furgesl@balrog.ucs.uindy.edu wrote: > > >From another source: > > In the opinion of a high school English teacher, the split infinitive is > not acceptable in academic writing; however, it is considered > grammatically correct. To encourage young writers to advance their > writing "maturity", the split infinitive, contractions, and the use of > passive verbs are not permitted. (Along with many others) > > According to "Woe Is I" by Patricia T. O'Connner: > > The truth is that the phrase "split infinitive" is misleading. Since *to* > isn't really part of the infinitive, there's nothing to split. A sentence > often sounds better when the *to* is close to the infinitive: *Violet > decided to ask for a raise*. But there's no harm in separating them by > putting a descriptive word or two in between: *Violet decided to bravely > ask for a raise*. > > Writers of English have been merrily "splitting" infinitives since the > 1300's, and it was considered acceptable until the mid-nineteenth century, > when grammar books--notably Henry Alford's *Plea for the Queen's > English*--started calling it a crime. (Some linguists trace the taboo to > the Victorians' slavish fondness for Latin, a language in which you > *can't* divide an infinitive.) This "rule" was popular for half a > century, until leading grammarians debunked it. > > Stefanie > Can you stand another authority? A couple of excerpts from the entry in *Fowler's Guide to English Usage* Those who neither know nor care are the vast majority, and are a happy folk, to be envied by most of the minority classes. `To really understand' comes readier to their lips and pens than `really to understand'; they see no reason why they should not say it (small blame to them, seeing that reasons are not their critics' strong point), and they do say it, to the discomfort of some among us, but not to their own. Later, the view: We maintain, however, that a real s.i., though not desirable in itself, is preferable to either of two things, to real ambiguity, and to patent artificiality. For the first, we will rather write `Our object is to further cement trade relations' than, by correcting into `Our object is further to cement ...', leave it doubtful whether an additional object or additional cementing is the point. And for the second, we take it that such reminders of a tyrannous convention as `in not combining to forbid flatly hostilities' are far more abnormal than the abnormality they evade. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 20:34:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16701 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:34:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16692 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:34:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA80476; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:35:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert cc: scrappy@hub.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Feb 1999 02:41:44 GMT." <199902010241.TAA17102@usr04.primenet.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:35:27 -0800 Message-ID: <80474.917843727@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The people I'm aware of who use FreeBSD as a serious desktop are > using KDE. It complies with open standards, and has the disctinct This in no way explains the failure of XiG to market CDE to the FreeBSD market whereas it had a success with the Linux market. Remember how this topic started, please understand: The issue wasn't KDE vs CDE vs GNOME vs TWM and 3 sexy icons masquerading as a desktop, the topic was commercial ISVs showing some "faith" in the FreeBSD desktop market through sales experience. When you sell 3 copies of something that sells thousands of copies elsewhere, this does not lead to faith and that was the ONLY reason I brought up CDE at all - I have zero interest in getting into a debate about its technical merits or lack thereof since that wasn't the point in the first place. > I think the desktop contest went down so badly because it was a > phenomenally uninteresting thing to hack on. I personnaly didn't > get involved because of the politics of layered software in FreeBSD; The ports collection has over 2000 items in it now. Arguing that this approach was somehow infeasible doesn't really make sense in that context given the sheer number of people who have clearly gotten their heads around the concept enough to contribute new ports/packages. > technology needed to layer software; for a desktop, this is a > System V style rc structure. It's just not worthwhile working on I don't agree that desktops fundamentally require a SysV rc structure. That's like arguing that SCO would run faster if the box it came in was a different color - a non-sequitur at best. > You might want to rehold the contest, if you can promise that the > winner's code will go on the CDROM as something other than a port, I seriously and honestly doubt that this would make the slightest difference. I know you don't agree, but I simply haven't seen any real evidence to lend weight to the above assertion. > so that is not the problem. Rather, xBSD does not have > the fbdev driver system and the next release of KGI is > not done yet. If these problems can be fixed (not by me), > all of this should work on xBSD as well. Why not by you? "If not you, who else?" :-) > FreeBSD has to be willing to integrate code that's not that interesting > to the core/committers who, probably because others migrated away, are > predominantly server weenies, not desktop weenies. Much of the code that's integrated today is not actually that interesting to the majority of core/committers, it's done because somebody asked for it (and, in the best cases, contributed it). If we only imported that which personally interested us, FreeBSD would be much smaller than it is today. I leave it to you to decide whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 20:45:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17727 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17719 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:45:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA10063; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:44:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990131213334.00b56df0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:35:12 -0700 To: cpiazza@home.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990131205115.0450f530@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:11 PM 1/31/99 -0800, Chris Piazza wrote: >Weren't the problems they were having with GNU advocates mainly because of the >QT license? Yes, they were. The GPL prevents you from linking in something that isn't GPLed. The BSD license doesn't have this problem! --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 20:52:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18605 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:52:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA18600 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:52:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA80504; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:52:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert cc: scrappy@hub.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Feb 1999 03:24:12 GMT." <199902010324.UAA18580@usr04.primenet.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:52:39 -0800 Message-ID: <80502.917844759@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Now that Microsoft is pushing NT hard for the server market, where > will UNIX go next, when they give that up? I don't have any intention of giving that market up. NT is something that it's possible to fight on the server, as hard as that might be, whereas it's almost impossible to fight on the desktop. As I said, the apps just aren't there on the desktop. On the server, we have Apache, nntp, sendmail and numerous other free utilities to round out a pretty reasonable looking functionality picture. > I think it's time to get some non-technical people involved, and > actually have the technical people yield them some power. At a bare > minimum, there *have* to be people who like to do marketing for > marketing's sake, if there are people who like to code for coding's > sake. There's no issue here of "yielding power" or an unwillingness to do so impeding the efforts of advocates. Any "power" that the various techies in core do yield is purely in the technical arena and, if anything, there's not a whole lot of attention focused on PR in core at all. There's some, not to sell short the efforts of those in core who've gone off to give speaches or otherwise push the product, but it's hardly the principal objective of core's technically-focused group of developers and hence they're not likely to stand in the way of the non-technical folks. If you've seen problems in getting non-technical people involved and concluded that this has somehow come about through their efforts being blocked by power-brokers, then that conclusion is wholly erroneous and in need of a serious re-think. The fact that there are few non-technical people around is for the simple reason that few of them have come forward and offered to help, those that do often requiring far more hand-holding and instruction on "what to do" than most of us have time for. We barely have time to "manage" the technical contributions we receive much less the non-technical ones and if you're keen to help then by all means, take a few of the non-technical types under your wing and show them what to do! Being non-technical, many of them are rather lost here and need pointers on how and where they can make a contribution. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 20:53:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18877 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:53:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA18872 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:53:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA80519; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:54:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Feb 1999 03:37:54 GMT." Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:54:17 -0800 Message-ID: <80517.917844857@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I say let's do it. Fine, where are your diffs? :-) People have been talking about this kind of thing for ages. What we lack is someone to actually DO THE WORK. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 21:41:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24391 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:41:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0513.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24383 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:41:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA00729; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:40:24 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:40:24 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-Reply-To: <80474.917843727@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > The people I'm aware of who use FreeBSD as a serious desktop are > > using KDE. It complies with open standards, and has the disctinct > > This in no way explains the failure of XiG to market CDE to the > FreeBSD market whereas it had a success with the Linux market. I think this one comes back to 'market-share' and 'niche', which I *think* is what you are getting at too... Does anyone have an clue as to what the ratio is of Linux->FreeBSD? Reasonably intelligent estimates? > > technology needed to layer software; for a desktop, this is a > > System V style rc structure. It's just not worthwhile working on > > I don't agree that desktops fundamentally require a SysV rc structure. That one kinda lost me too...half the time, I can never figure out *why* there are the layers that Solaris has. I can see rc0 (halt), rc1 (single user) and rc2 (full system), but why a special rc3 (network)? *shrug* > > You might want to rehold the contest, if you can promise that the > > winner's code will go on the CDROM as something other than a port, > > I seriously and honestly doubt that this would make the slightest > difference. I know you don't agree, but I simply haven't seen any > real evidence to lend weight to the above assertion. Too many choices in ports..do you go gnome or kde, twm or fvwm95? I *believe* that there is discussions about improving the install procedure by breaking it down into packages? have one of the 'package options' be what window manager gets install...defaulting to one (gnome or kde?) if no choice is made, and making one of the options "none"... Were I a new user to Unix, in general, being dumped into a command line shell is a little daunting...and going into ports and deciding which one to go with is doubly so :( We need a freebsd-desktop mailing list :) > > so that is not the problem. Rather, xBSD does not have > > the fbdev driver system and the next release of KGI is > > not done yet. If these problems can be fixed (not by me), > > all of this should work on xBSD as well. > > Why not by you? "If not you, who else?" :-) Can someone point me to docs on *what* this is all about? I *might* be able to organize something at the University towards this, but need a starting point to work from...we have a few FreeBSD guys mixed in with the thousand or so Linux users... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:02:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA26980 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:02:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA26975 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:02:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA80833; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:03:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: The Hermit Hacker cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Feb 1999 01:40:24 -0400." Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:03:22 -0800 Message-ID: <80831.917849002@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Can someone point me to docs on *what* this is all about? I > *might* be able to organize something at the University towards this, but > need a starting point to work from...we have a few FreeBSD guys mixed in > with the thousand or so Linux users... It's really pretty simple - get a package included in packages/All (by making it a port) which does nothing more than install some prototype dotfiles for root, some collection of WMs and applications (all of which can be done by @pkgdep'ing an existing package rather than including the whole thing). Then it appears automatically in the index, perhaps in a category of "canned package sets" or something, and the user can add it just like any other package. man pkg_create or RTFM bsd.port.mk's package rule for more info. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:14:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28130 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:14:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28124 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:14:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.106]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3A19; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:14:17 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:23:06 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: The Hermit Hacker Subject: Re: From Slashdot... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 The Hermit Hacker wrote: > Does anyone have an clue as to what the ratio is of > Linux->FreeBSD? Reasonably intelligent estimates? http://www.slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=currentkernel&aid=-1 Linux 2.2.* 4918 /25% Linux 2.2.0ac 702 / 3% Linux 2.1.* 1805 / 9% Linux 2.0.* 7864 / 41% Older Linux 178 / 0% *BSD 1043 / 5% Proprietary OS 1748 / 9% Other 874 / 4% 19133 total votes --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:14:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28156 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:14:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28141 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:14:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.106]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5CD; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:14:20 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <79876.917829229@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:23:07 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: From Slashdot... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, The Hermit Hacker Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > attitudes in action since they sold thousands of copies for Linux) and > the attempt to bring 3DFX support to FreeBSD has been so long in > coming that I'm no longer even waiting for it, etc. I wonder what it takes... I know someone who's hacking at libsvga at the moment, and I've been looking at the GLide stuff myself for Voodoo(2). Suggestions? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:14:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28339 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:14:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28148 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:14:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.106]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA2800; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:14:21 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990131170907.043afa10@mail.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:23:09 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Unix '98 Cc: FreeBSD Chat , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 Brett Glass wrote: > That's because the "Open Group" isn't. The purpose of the UNIX '98 > "standard" is to *exclude* competitors. As in `resistance is futile'? =) So they went from a mentor status to a dictator role? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:14:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28361 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:14:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28175 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:14:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.106]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA2805; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:14:22 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <79764.917828272@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:23:11 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Unix '98 Cc: FreeBSD Chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Absolutely nothing. What the Open Group does has long since ceased to > be relevant to the Unix community. Yeah, that's why I wondered. I, being the Unix rookie I am, did knew that the Open Group at one time has done good things for the community. But I guess their name implies the wrong things nowadays eh? =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:16:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28537 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:16:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28530 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:16:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA82802; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:17:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, The Hermit Hacker Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:23:07 +0100." Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:17:18 -0800 Message-ID: <82800.917849838@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I wonder what it takes... Someone to do the work, I'd say. > I know someone who's hacking at libsvga at the moment, and I've been > looking at the GLide stuff myself for Voodoo(2). > > Suggestions? Do it! :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:18:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28657 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:18:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28652 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:18:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.106]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA990; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:18:27 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <80517.917844857@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:27:16 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> I say let's do it. > > Fine, where are your diffs? :-) > > People have been talking about this kind of thing for ages. > What we lack is someone to actually DO THE WORK. :) Blame the GTk+ stuff on the coders at GTk+ (long story). Anyways, Jordan, I can imagine that this might be a new setting for /stand/sysinstall? I mean, some new option which is dependant on XFree and which allows one to pick a desktop (which would still be a package or port I guess). It would make it easier on newbies (in fact it could be made a novice install option only as the rest of us know, ahum =), what to do). On a sidenote, /stand/sysinstall is documented in the source I guess and nowhere else? =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:24:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29575 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:24:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29569 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:24:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA82858; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:25:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:27:16 +0100." Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:25:16 -0800 Message-ID: <82856.917850316@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Anyways, Jordan, I can imagine that this might be a new setting for > /stand/sysinstall? I mean, some new option which is dependant on XFree and Probably not, once you look at it. /usr/src/release/sysinstall. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:27:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29769 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:27:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29762 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:27:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.106]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA29DE; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:27:04 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <80502.917844759@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:35:53 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: From Slashdot... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jcwells@u.washington.edu, scrappy@hub.org, Terry Lambert Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Now that Microsoft is pushing NT hard for the server market, where >> will UNIX go next, when they give that up? > > I don't have any intention of giving that market up. NT is something > that it's possible to fight on the server, as hard as that might be, > whereas it's almost impossible to fight on the desktop. As I said, > the apps just aren't there on the desktop. On the server, we have > Apache, nntp, sendmail and numerous other free utilities to round out > a pretty reasonable looking functionality picture. For what it's worth: the company I work for has about 2 dozen NT servers (if not less), 450 NetWare 4.11 server, a hand full of NetWare 3.12, 2 megabeautiful AIX boxen, a number of lesser AIX boxen, and the firewalls/nameservers and our desktop machines to administet them are FreeBSD. We have seen time and again that NT doesn't scale. I also know of people who have embraced NT to come back to the open arms of Unix. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:28:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29793 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:27:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29778 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:27:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.106]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA29E3; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:27:06 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:35:55 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: The Hermit Hacker Subject: Re: From Slashdot... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 The Hermit Hacker wrote: > Just curious, but what is happening as far as modularizing(sp?) the > kernel and its drivers is concerned? One of the things that a friend of > mine raves about, as far as Linux is concerned, is the fact that, without > having to reboot his machine, he can install (assuming hot-swappable > hardware) a Adaptec controller, type a command, and the driver is > included into the kernel...would something like that make it *easier* to > ports drivers over from, say, Linux? As long as the API's are reasonably > consistent, I would think this would be easier...no? *G* I guess he forgot to mention what a bitch Linux kernel compilation in itself is. Anyways, if ye look closely Marc, ye can see the starts of modularisation taking place, and I hope it's possible (without to many dirty hacks and tricks) that what you suggested can be used on BSD. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:28:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29922 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhub.ainet.com (mailhub.ainet.com [204.30.40.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29917 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:28:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmscott@ainet.com) Received: from shell.ainet.com (jmscott@shell.ainet.com [204.30.40.108]) by mailhub.ainet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA01866 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by shell.ainet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05303; for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 31 Jan 99 22:30:53 PST Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:30:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Joseph M. Scott" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: recent zd linux article, possible BSD one.... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm sure that many of you saw the slashdot.org bit, see : http://www.slashdot.org/articles/99/01/29/1533221.shtml about the zd article that compared 3 Linux distrib's with NT4. They did some fairly simple non-tuned ( read : out of the box ) comparisions of the 3 Linuxs against NT, in regards to IIS vs Apache and Samba vs NT File Sharing. The story can be found at : http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/issue/0,4537,387506,00.html Well, I thought it was a fairly neat arrangment, even though it was fairly simple since they didn't do any tuning/tweaking which isn't very real world. So I thought I write the two authors, who were : Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols Eric Carr Below is first the email that I sent, followed by the two responses that I got back ( one from each author ). They got back to me very quickly (read : least than 10 minutes?), and Steven indicated that they may do something similar with the BSD area. I hoped to gently encourage them to do so. ------------------------------ I just recently read through your Linux Up Close: Time to switch article. Pretty neat article, it helped confirm what I already believed. I did also thing of something that may also have been very useful during those tests, including FreeBSD in your line up of tests. Are they any plans to do something like that in the future that would include FreeBSD in your testing? Also it would be nice to see Netware in there test as well. I think with those two included you would get a much more well rounded picture. Thoughts? Thanks...... --------------------------------- We probably will be taking a look at the commercial BSD in its next incarnation. At that time, we'll probably take at least a quick look at FreeBSD and NetBSD. As for Netware, someday, when we have time. Steven -------------------------------- Joseph: Our focus was Linux; specifically, Linux distributions from organizations that have a reseller program. Thanks for your comments. Eric ----------------------------------- * Joseph M. Scott * jmscott@ainet.com * American InfoMetrics * Modesto, CA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:29:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29972 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:29:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29967 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:29:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.106]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA9DA; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:29:35 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990131213334.00b56df0@mail.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:38:23 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jason C. Wells" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, cpiazza@home.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 Brett Glass wrote: > Yes, they were. The GPL prevents you from linking in something that isn't > GPLed. > The BSD license doesn't have this problem! Muahahah =) Assimilate, LOL! Seriously: this might be a good thing to try... You doing it Brett? Else I am going to mail... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:30:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00186 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:30:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picalon.gun.de (picalon.gun.de [192.109.159.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29994 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:29:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: from klemm.gtn.com (pppak04.gtn.com [194.231.123.169]) by picalon.gun.de (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA23834; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:29:50 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id HAA01995; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:29:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:29:17 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: Alexander Sanda Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First year of FreeBSD... Message-ID: <19990201072917.A1695@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Alexander Sanda on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 09:27:23AM +0100 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 09:27:23AM +0100, Alexander Sanda wrote: > > [ one year running FreeBSD successfully ] Congrads ;-) -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas What gives you 90% more speed, for example, in kernel compilation ? http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html "NT = Not Today" (Maggie Biggs) ``powered by FreeBSD SMP'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 22:35:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00469 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:35:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [208.221.12.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00462 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:35:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00763; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:34:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902010634.WAA00763@implode.root.com> To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:23:06 +0100." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:34:27 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On 01-Feb-99 The Hermit Hacker wrote: >> Does anyone have an clue as to what the ratio is of >> Linux->FreeBSD? Reasonably intelligent estimates? > >http://www.slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=currentkernel&aid=-1 > >Linux 2.2.* 4918 /25% >Linux 2.2.0ac 702 / 3% >Linux 2.1.* 1805 / 9% >Linux 2.0.* 7864 / 41% >Older Linux 178 / 0% >*BSD 1043 / 5% >Proprietary OS 1748 / 9% >Other 874 / 4% > >19133 total votes Uh, I wouldn't consider slashdot to be anything close to accurate since it has always been basically a Linux forum. The Linux:FreeBSD ratio has typically been estimated around 5:1 wordwide, although there is some evidence that this may have narrowed a bit to 4:1 or better. I don't draw this estimate from any single source; it comes from CDROM sales numbers, newsgroup postings, FTP downloads, etc. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 23:22:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05745 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:22:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05740 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:22:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA11167; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:22:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990201001046.00cc8ec0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 00:12:52 -0700 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jason C. Wells" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, cpiazza@home.net In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990131213334.00b56df0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:38 AM 2/1/99 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >On 01-Feb-99 Brett Glass wrote: > >> Yes, they were. The GPL prevents you from linking in something that isn't >> GPLed. >> The BSD license doesn't have this problem! > >Muahahah =) > >Assimilate, LOL! > >Seriously: this might be a good thing to try... You doing it Brett? Else I >am going to mail... I don't know the KDE team, nor am I very familiar with KDE (though I hear it's good). Folks who are better acquainted with these things should probably be the ones to contact them. They'll probably be delighted to find a group that WELCOMES their work. And if TPTB are willing to make it the default desktop, they would feel right at home. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 23:46:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07767 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:46:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07762 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:46:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20215; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:45:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990131234536.A19950@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:45:36 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: From Slashdot... Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 07:23:06AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 07:23:06AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 01-Feb-99 The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > Does anyone have an clue as to what the ratio is of > > Linux->FreeBSD? Reasonably intelligent estimates? > > http://www.slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=currentkernel&aid=-1 > > Linux 2.2.* 4918 /25% > Linux 2.2.0ac 702 / 3% > Linux 2.1.* 1805 / 9% > Linux 2.0.* 7864 / 41% > Older Linux 178 / 0% > *BSD 1043 / 5% > Proprietary OS 1748 / 9% > Other 874 / 4% > > 19133 total votes I don't think this is a good indicator. From what I can see, most of the people that frequent that site are Linux users. It's sorta like walking into synagogue on any given Saturday morning and saying "All those here who are Jewish, please raise your hand". One should not be surprised when almost everyone does raise their hand ;-) A better indication of how we are doing is to look at a paper that Robert Young of Redhat Linux wrote called "Sizing the Linux Market". This paper can be found at http://www.redhat.com/redhat/linuxmarket.html. There are a number of "interesting" points here. 1. They assume a "one machine, one user" rule although they do admit that more than one user may be using a machine. 2. they don't use numbers from Linux counters, total sales of their CDS, or total FTPs from their site. Interestingly there were only 100,000 copies downloaded from their site in the last 12 months as of March 1998. 3. They used magazine subscriptions and reader surveys to come up with the percentage of Unix users who were Linux users was between 26% to and 45%. 4. By their methodology, which looks suspiciously like hand waving to me, they estimate the the total number of Linux users world wide, as of march 1998 is 7.5 million. I happen to run the FreeBSD counter page and while it is not very well advertised and only recently been hooked up to FreeBSD.org registration system, the current count of people that have registered is 34,871. The Linux counter, which is better know and has been up longer, has a count of 83,497 user and 44,314 machine or 2 user per machine. The FreeBSD counter has approximately 40% of the count the Linux counter has. It is my guess that the ratio of machines to users is much higher for FreeBSD than that of Linux. Here in the San Francisco Bay area there a large number of ISPs that run almost exclusively on FreeBSD. This includes a number of very large ISPs. I can't think of any ISPs that are Linux only shops. The Linux counter guesses that there are 8 million Linux users world wide or 100 time the current number of registered uses. By that rule of thumb we should have 3.5 million world wide. But since we are more server oriented than Linux my best guess is that we have over 4 million machines world wide running FreeBSD. My $0.02 Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 31 23:48:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08067 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:48:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA08054 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:48:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.2/8.9.2) id JAA03072; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:47:37 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:47:36 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... Message-ID: <19990201094736.B134@shale.csir.co.za> References: <79926.917830105@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <79926.917830105@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 04:48:25PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 04:48:25PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > if I wanted a multimedia desktop, I'd run Linux. If I want a game > machine, however, I'd run Windows. I can't GET any of the decent ITYM "PlayStation". HTH. HAND. -Jeremy -- | If I was not so weak, if I was not so cold, --+-- If I was not so scared of being broken, growing old, | I would be. I would be... frail. | - jars of clay / much afraid / frail To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 00:28:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA12900 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:28:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA12892 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:28:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA20363; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:28:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990201002828.A20353@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:28:28 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Feb. BAFUG meeting Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- BAFUG -- The Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, February 11th. This months meeting will be held at The Silicon Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> Jordan K. Hubbard will be giving a post-"State of the Union" talk. This talk will most likely include a discussion of the release of 3.0, the move to ELF, the start of the 3.X branch, and the possible inclusion of IPv6 into 3.1. Of course we will have our famous "Ask Jordan" session. ==> Nicole Harrington and Josef Grosch will talk about their plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on February 20th at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Oakland Convention Center. We will also be holding our traditional Install-A-Thon at the Cow Place in Daly City. The date for this show is February 27th. This Install-A-Thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux). See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> Additional speaker and/or topics are yet to be determined. ==> bafug.org is off and running! Thanks to Jan Koum and Nicole Harrington. The FreeBSD Retail page and Counter page have been moved to this site. Suggestions are welcome. ==> Thanks for all the donations of hardware to build BAFUG scratch machine for use at the Install-a-thons. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at the Silicon Reef in San Francisco. The Silicon Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By Muni: Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights stop nearby. By BART: Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, on the right (south) side. By Car: From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.reef.com http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before February 11th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 01:10:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18079 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:10:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18067 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:10:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20551; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:10:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990201011005.A20538@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:10:05 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Counter Project Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * This is a beta release. It is not perfect and will have a few bugs and flaws. If you find any please let us know. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. Josef (jgrosch@MooseRiver.com) -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 01:12:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18465 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:12:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18460 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:12:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20572; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990201011218.A20557@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:12:18 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Retail Web Page Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 01:26:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20571 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:26:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA20560 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:26:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20652; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:26:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990201012627.A20644@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:26:27 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Feb. BAFUG Install-A-Thons Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Install-a-thon BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) will hold it's monthly install-a-thon in conjunction with the Robert Austin computer show on February 20th at the Oakland Convention Center and Cow Palace in Daly City on February 27th. The purpose of these install-a-thons is for new and experienced user to meet and solve problem they are having with FreeBSD. It is also a time to promote FreeBSD to potential users. The Oakland Convention Center is in downtown Oakland on the corner of 10th street and Clay Street. There is come on the street parking but your best bet is lot parking. The Cow Palace is in Daly City on the corner of Geneva and Santos. Parking is $5.00. Street parking is available but _VERY_ limited. Admission to the show is $5.00 unless you have a VIP pass. VIP passes can be gotten at Robert Austin's web page (http://www.robertaustin.com). The show hours are 10:00am to 4:00pm. We will be meeting at the Cow Palace or the Oakland convention center, respectively at 9:00am to setup and will be there till 4 when the show closes. Tear down usually takes about 30 minutes. If you are interested in helping please contact Josef Grosch - jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Nicole Harrington - nicole@mediacity.com More information about the show can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Install.html Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 05:00:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA16811 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 05:00:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (host-e186.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA16701 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 05:00:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id HAA02698; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:58:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990201075813.A2668@tidalwave.net> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:58:13 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: Jeremy Lea , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PlayStation (was Re: From Slashdot...) Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <79926.917830105@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990201094736.B134@shale.csir.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990201094736.B134@shale.csir.co.za>; from Jeremy Lea on Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 09:47:36AM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 09:47:36AM +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote: > Hi, > > On Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 04:48:25PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > if I wanted a multimedia desktop, I'd run Linux. If I want a game > > machine, however, I'd run Windows. I can't GET any of the decent > > ITYM "PlayStation". HTH. HAND. > just out of curiosity, what do they do PSX development on? I could have sworn I saw RCS version strings in PSX executables... -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet)| | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 05:48:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA22427 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 05:48:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA22415 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 05:48:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id AAA00428; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:18:49 +1030 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA06705; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:18:48 +1030 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:18:48 +1030 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: lcremean@tidalwave.net Cc: Jeremy Lea , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PlayStation (was Re: From Slashdot...) In-Reply-To: <19990201075813.A2668@tidalwave.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 09:47:36AM +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 04:48:25PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > if I wanted a multimedia desktop, I'd run Linux. If I want a game > > > machine, however, I'd run Windows. I can't GET any of the decent > > > > ITYM "PlayStation". HTH. HAND. > > > > just out of curiosity, what do they do PSX development on? I could have > sworn I saw RCS version strings in PSX executables... *** UNCONFIRMED RUMOUR *** One of the NT weenies I work with said the other day that they're mostly developed using some kind of Windows cross-development environment. Further, there's some kind of limited DirectX compatability available, which eases in the porting of PSX games to and from the PC. *** UNCONFIRMED RUMOUR *** It would be interesting to know whether or not this is true (especially the latter). Kris > > -- > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet)| > | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > ----- (ASP) Microsoft Corporation (MSFT) announced today that the release of its productivity suite, Office 2000, will be delayed until the first quarter of 1901. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 06:15:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24636 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 06:15:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA24630; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 06:15:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.2/8.9.2) id QAA64082; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:15:04 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:15:04 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: The Hermit Hacker , Terry Lambert Subject: XMenu - adding ports to the desktop [was: From Slashdot...] Message-ID: <19990201161504.E3184@shale.csir.co.za> References: <80831.917849002@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <80831.917849002@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 10:03:22PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, [redirected to -hackers, bcc'd to -chat] On Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 10:03:22PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > It's really pretty simple - get a package included in packages/All (by > making it a port) which does nothing more than install some prototype > dotfiles for root, some collection of WMs and applications (all of > which can be done by @pkgdep'ing an existing package rather than > including the whole thing). Then it appears automatically in the > index, perhaps in a category of "canned package sets" or something, > and the user can add it just like any other package. man pkg_create > or RTFM bsd.port.mk's package rule for more info. :) I started work on designing an extension to the Ports collection, which would allow packages to add items to the desktop for various window managers. Below is my design document, but I've not started coding. In particular I'm a C++ hacker (and not much of one) and I think this might be a Perl job... Are there any people interested in helping code the XMenu system described below? Especially any Perl hackers? Any comments would also be welcome. The syntax for the configuration files is very much a first draft, and any comments and ideas would be appreciated. I'm not a trained syntax writer... Regards, -Jeremy XMenu ~~~~~ An X11 window manager configuration tool Jeremy Lea, 1999 Purpose ~~~~~~~ The purpose of XMenu will be to provide an active link between the FreeBSD ports collection and various X11 window managers. When ports are installed or un-installed (or their packages), it will try to update the menu's presented to all of the users, in whatever window manager is being used, to reflect the changes in the system. XMenu will have configuration files which will allow the user to control which applications are installed/de-installed, where they are added to the menus and which icons should be used. These will be configurable for all WM's or for each one individually. XMenu will not aim to be a complete solution to automatic X11 desktops for FreeBSD, but will be aimed at the non-hacker who is not into manual maintenance. The configuration files should, however, be flexible enough to cater for a large percentage of the users. Architecture ~~~~~~~~~~~~ XMenu is broken into three parts. The first will be XMENU files in the ports /pkg directory, along with associated additions to bsd.port.mk and pkg_* to notify XMenu to update it's configuration. The second is a core module (XMenu) which will be responsible for managing the various ports registered, system and user configuration files and passing directives to WM specific backends. The WM specific backends will be responsible for parsing the records they are sent and either adding or removing them from the user's window maker configuration files. They are also responsible for passing the current configuration back to XMenu. XMENU files ~~~~~~~~~~~ The structure of the XMENU files will resemble this example (for the netscape port): WindowManager "wmaker" { Desktop "WWW" { Toolbar "WWW" { Item "Netscape" { Program "/usr/local/bin/netscape" Icon "." override Options minimise, autostart } } } } WindowManager "*" { Desktop "*" { Menu "." Category "Applications"."WWW" Group "Netscape" { MenuItem "Communicator 4.08" { Program "/usr/local/bin/netscape" Icon "." override } } } } This might imply the XMenu should attempt to install netscape under Applications->WWW->Netscape on the default menu (implied by a "."), for all installed window managers and for all desktops. The icon used should be the default for netscape for that WM, and should always be used in place of the application supplied icon. For Window Maker it should additionally install netscape docked to the clip on the desktop WWW (if this exists) and auto-launch it minimised on startup. XMENU files would need to be added to each port which has programs which would normally be run under X. However, ports without such files would still function normally. The setup of these files would be the responsibility of the port maintainer, although some general guidelines as to defaults should be given. XMenu ~~~~~ This is the core program, which performs most of the logic involved with managing the addition and removal of items. It is a command line driven application, with the following options: -add : Causes XMenu to read and process the file /var/db/pkg//+XMENU. This would add this package to the default configuration. -remove : Causes XMenu to remove the package from the default configuration. -install : Allow XMenu to manage configuration for . This would involve the installation of default config files in /usr/X11R6/skel (which would be maintained as the default config) if called as root. If called as a user, install the files for to ${HOME}. This could be called as a final stage from all ports in x11-wm. -deinstall : Undo the work of install. -update: If called as root, resync the config files with /var/db/pkg/*. Maintenance option in case things get out of sync. If called as a user, update all of their config files. XMenu stores the following files: /usr/X11R6/skel/.XMenu/windowmanagers List of installed windowmanagers. /usr/X11R6/skel/.XMenu/packages List of installed packages. /usr/X11R6/skel/.XMenu/config Configuration file. ~/.XMenu/... Same as above, user specific. The format of the configuration file will follow this example: WindowManager "wmaker" { Desktop "*" { Toolbar "WWW" { Item "*" { Ignore } } } Desktop "WWW" { Menu "*" { Group "Netscape" { Override Category "WWW" } } } } Package "xemacs*" { WindowManager "*" { Item "*" { Override Icon "~/pixmaps/elephant.xpm" } } } The configuration files must be able to perform ignore, override and add commands based on a three way filter: package, windowmanager and configuration item, with sub-filters for desktop, menu and toolbar. The task of XMenu is to merge the XMENU file passed by the package installation with these configuration options to generate a final configuration. Window Manager backends ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ These programs (named XMenu_) are responsible for the merging of XMenu information with the installed configuration files for the specific window manager. They will take the following arguments: -add : Causes XMenu_wm to read the XMENU file for from stdin, and make the changes to the config files -remove : Causes XMenu_wm to remove the package from the config files. -list: This would cause XMenu_wm to list the installed packages, as determined from the config files, to stdout. This option would be used for the purpose of syncing the configuration. XMenu_wm should leave some kind of comment in the configuration files for the windowmanager to indicate that the lines were added automatically and should include a magic string which includes the package name which generated the text which follows the comment. This will be a problem for window managers whose configuration files cannot contain comments. XMenu_wm should only attempt to edit records which it generated. Operation ~~~~~~~~~ The operation of XMenu for packages would be as follows: 1. On package install (pkg_add or make install), XMenu should be called, if installed and there is an XMENU file, with the -add option. 2. XMenu should then load the XMENU file, and the global and user configuration files. The rules listed should be applied to generate a final XMENU file which would then be passed via a pipe to the XMenu_wm programs for each installed window manager. 3. The XMenu_wm programs should update the window manager configuration files in /usr/X11R6/skel. Users should call 'XMenu -update' as part of their .xinitrc or .xsession file. Other modes of operation are fairly obvious. -- | "In this world of temptation, I will stand for what is right. --+-- With a heart of salvation, I will hold up the light. | If I live or if I die, if I laugh or if I cry, | in this world of temptation, I will stand." -Pam Thum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 06:26:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25778 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 06:26:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA25773 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 06:26:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA02765; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:26:30 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA00999; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:26:29 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:26:28 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Kris Kennaway Cc: lcremean@tidalwave.net, Jeremy Lea , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PlayStation (was Re: From Slashdot...) Message-ID: <19990201152628.A704@bitbox.follo.net> References: <19990201075813.A2668@tidalwave.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Kris Kennaway on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:18:48AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:18:48AM +1030, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > > On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 09:47:36AM +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 04:48:25PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > if I wanted a multimedia desktop, I'd run Linux. If I want a game > > > > machine, however, I'd run Windows. I can't GET any of the decent > > > > > > ITYM "PlayStation". HTH. HAND. > > > > > > > just out of curiosity, what do they do PSX development on? I could have > > sworn I saw RCS version strings in PSX executables... > > *** UNCONFIRMED RUMOUR *** > > One of the NT weenies I work with said the other day that they're mostly > developed using some kind of Windows cross-development environment. Further, > there's some kind of limited DirectX compatability available, which eases in > the porting of PSX games to and from the PC. > > *** UNCONFIRMED RUMOUR *** > > It would be interesting to know whether or not this is true (especially the > latter). I don't know about DirectX compatibility - there was none when I worked on PSX. Development is done using various cross-development tools (PsyQ, a subdivision of Psygnosis, was the leading producer of this for the PSX when I quit doing games); the compilers used are the GNU ones, with some mods. Version control is up to the developer, of course - and quite a few use CVS :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 06:44:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29584 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 06:44:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pmpro.com (dyn000979.belt.digex.net [199.125.236.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA29565 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 06:44:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thomas@pmpro.com) Received: from squash.pmpro.com (squash.pmpro.com [192.168.201.254]) by pmpro.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA20359 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:25:03 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990201092059.0099fc10@pmpro.com> X-Sender: thomas@pmpro.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 09:20:59 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Mark Thomas Subject: Re: PlayStation (was Re: From Slashdot...) In-Reply-To: References: <19990201075813.A2668@tidalwave.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:18 AM 2/2/99 +1030, Kris Kennaway wrote: >*** UNCONFIRMED RUMOUR *** > >One of the NT weenies I work with said the other day that they're mostly >developed using some kind of Windows cross-development environment. Further, >there's some kind of limited DirectX compatability available, which eases in >the porting of PSX games to and from the PC. > >*** UNCONFIRMED RUMOUR *** > >It would be interesting to know whether or not this is true (especially the >latter). IIRC, the PSX development platform is PC based, with a board set that sits in the PC and a cross development environment under Windows (back when I first looked at it I think it was NT -- could be wrong). Don't know about any DirectX <=> PSX cross development, though I imagine most large production houses would have developed some sort of crossplatform layer to work on top of. ----- Mark Mark Thomas -- pmpro, inc. -- thomas@pmpro.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 07:09:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03068 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:09:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kirk.NetUnlimited.net (Kirk.netunlimited.net [208.128.132.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA03058 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:09:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brownicm@prokyon.com) Received: from molly.my.domain (Khan-182.netunlimited.net [208.165.3.183]) by Kirk.NetUnlimited.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23919; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:02:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990201101621.Z8473@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:00:57 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Browning To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: English style (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) Cc: Mark Ovens , "Daniel C. Sobral" , Sheldon Hearn , Poul-Henning Kamp , Mikhail Teterin , FreeBSD Chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ya know, I got to thinking about that. You can't split one word, can you? Something I thought I read somewhere. My source must have been mistaken. I do know (now, there's an English verb construction) that there was a movement afoot in the 19th century to make English more "elegant" by applying the rules of proper Latin to it, as far as could be done, anyway. Maybe it had to do with splitting a verb and preposition. As in English "for to make", a construction we don't use anymore, but in French "pour faire" or Spanish "por hacer". I don't know. On 31-Jan-99 Greg Lehey wrote: >> FWIW, the proscription against the split infinitive, if I recall correctly, >> was >> introduced sometime in the 19th century. "Scholars" who noted that it was >> disallowed in Latin felt that English would be improved thereby. > > Disallowed in Latin? How could it be possible in Latin (or most other > European languages, for that matter)? > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Chris Browning Date: 01-Feb-99 Time: 09:31:34 Sent by XFMail 1.3 on FreeBSD 2.2.8 "if you believe in Nothing... honey, It believes in you." ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 07:24:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05317 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:24:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA05311 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:24:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 107LD6-0000li-00; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:24:25 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA03176; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:24:10 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-2) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07109; Mon, 1 Feb 99 15:24:01 GMT Message-Id: <36B5BF8C.6436A42D@uk.radan.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 14:51:56 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >It isn't really worth it to me unless the reboot after the > >install results in a graphical login. > > This is good! > > >You might want to rehold the contest, if you can promise that the > >winner's code will go on the CDROM as something other than a port, > >and that the components necessary to easily make it the default > >view of the system were included in the system startup files as > >a switch that can be flipped. If not, you probably don't want to > > I think that the X desktop doesn't have to be too complicated. KDE out of > the box or FVWM2 with a slicker rc file would be sufficient for new users > who _need_ something to click on. I also think the GUI is mostly important > to newbies as oldbies can/will do GUI as they please. > > This was my vision, which, I never submitted. Patch X with entries in > .xsession for Fvwm2. Run XF86Setup. Run X, run fvwm2 with a nicer config > than that stupid purple thing. Put the .fvwm2rc and .xsession in > /usr/share/skel permanently. > > Since then I have installed KDE. I propose this. Let's not get too fancy. > Let's not worry about NIH. Let's endorse KDE and give option to install > (via sysinstall) the K Desktop Environment. (Yes, I know that users can > already do this if they know what they are looking for. Put a more visible > hook for KDE where it is more easily seen for newbies. "Would you like to > use FreeBSD's default graphical desktop? It's very nice.") > > Wham bam! One decision and the whole thing is decided and done with. New > users get eased into Unix. Experienced users can go on using customized > fvwm2 as I do. > > An easy to use and very nice GUI exists for FreeBSD. No hacking required. > Here is the million dollar question: Do we want to plug KDE as the default > GUI for FreeBSD? > > I say let's do it. > Well I for one certainly think we should offer something better than twm as the default. I mean, if we want to attract users from the Wonderful World of Windows then presenting them with twm the first time they start X is going to send them scuttling back to the open arms of Lord Gates, isn't it. Those of us that don't want/need a flashy GUI know how to install what something else (I use olvwm, BTW, which is only slightly less basic than twm) but newbies, especially Windows users, don't, and they will quite likely form a negative opinion of FreeBSD based on what the default setup is compared to Win95 (first impressions count and all that). Just my 0.02p > It requires no change in direction for the FreeBSD project. I know Jordan > said "server server server" and I completely respect that. FreeBSD doesn't > have to become desktop-centric _AT ALL_. The KDE people can do it for us. > > I am certain that KDE will help new users. It appeals to the FreeBSD > desktop people, all 50 of us non-hackers who love FreeBSD yet still can't > program their own .bash_profile. The KDE issue that I raise right now is > (to me) a no brainer. > > KDE, KDE, KDE. Do you really wanna jump? Do you? Common let's do it! > > (P.S. I hope I hear not one word about the GPL. Also, I left out GNOME as > it is still beta. I will say this. The GNOME people seem to have a more > platform independent philosophy. Perhaps in time.) > > Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. > Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It was this thinking that caused the problem in the first place. My homepage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com Radan Computational Ltd | http://www.radan.com Bath, England. CAD/CAM solutions | FreeBSD - The Power To Serve for the Sheetmetal Work industry.| http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 07:24:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05386 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:24:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-punt-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA05378 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:24:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 107LDW-0006Bt-00; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:24:52 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA03184; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:24:32 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-2) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07129; Mon, 1 Feb 99 15:24:27 GMT Message-Id: <36B5C4E2.5EC15190@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 15:14:42 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Reply-To: marko@uk.radan.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , scrappy@hub.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... References: <199902010324.UAA18580@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Same for the recent announcement > by HP that they will offer customers Linux on their HP Workstation > purchases as an OS option. > I read the other day that Sun resellers can ship all servers and workstations with Solaris _and_ Linux. http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/9812/sunflash.981208.4.html -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It was this thinking that caused the problem in the first place. My homepage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com Radan Computational Ltd | http://www.radan.com Bath, England. CAD/CAM solutions | FreeBSD - The Power To Serve for the Sheetmetal Work industry.| http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 07:31:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA06120 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:31:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA06114 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:31:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 107LK5-0005pb-00; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:31:37 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA03201; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:31:16 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-2) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07207; Mon, 1 Feb 99 15:31:12 GMT Message-Id: <36B5C88C.E7F61B47@uk.radan.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 15:30:20 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Reply-To: marko@uk.radan.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , scrappy@hub.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... References: <199902010324.UAA18580@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Same for the recent announcement > by HP that they will offer customers Linux on their HP Workstation > purchases as an OS option. > I read the other day that Sun resellers can ship all servers and workstations with Solaris _and_ Linux. http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/9812/sunflash.981208.4.html -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It was this thinking that caused the problem in the first place. My homepage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com Radan Computational Ltd | http://www.radan.com Bath, England. CAD/CAM solutions | FreeBSD - The Power To Serve for the Sheetmetal Work industry.| http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 08:16:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10103 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:16:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10098 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:16:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-75-5.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.75.5]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26112; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:16:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA36207; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:33:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: marko@uk.radan.com Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 Feb 1999 14:51:56 +0000" <36B5BF8C.6436A42D@uk.radan.com> References: <36B5BF8C.6436A42D@uk.radan.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990201113344W.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:33:44 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 47 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > An easy to use and very nice GUI exists for FreeBSD. No hacking required. > Here is the million dollar question: Do we want to plug KDE as the default > GUI for FreeBSD? I don't. Ick. > > I say let's do it. > I object. :-) > It requires no change in direction for the FreeBSD project. I know Jordan > said "server server server" and I completely respect that. FreeBSD doesn't > have to become desktop-centric _AT ALL_. The KDE people can do it for us. >From my experiences with KDE, I wouldn't trust their people to walk my dog. > KDE, KDE, KDE. Do you really wanna jump? Do you? Common let's do it! Jump? I was thinking about a push :-) It's at least as important to provide a stable experience for new users. I do not believe that KDE can do this now, maybe ever. Is it really that important to attract a horde of whiny Windows users into FreeBSD? They can't read, don't contribute, and consume the resources of an already stressed development team. I'd much rather see elements which attract professional technologists to FreeBSD, people who can bring something in with them. Looking around, it seems that FreeBSD is doing that pretty well although improvements can always be made. I remember something Terry said about the masses... Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net > Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. > Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 09:46:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19565 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:46:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA19560 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:46:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id JAA10300; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:46:42 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id JAA03467; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:46:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:46:03 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: W Gerald Hicks cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: <19990201113344W.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: >I'd much rather see elements which attract professional technologists >to FreeBSD, people who can bring something in with them. Looking >around, it seems that FreeBSD is doing that pretty well although >improvements can always be made. I agree. FreeBSD is doing well. Not everyone is a hacker. It is a big world out there. Programmers are a small segment of society. Computer users are a much larger segment of society than programmers. Discounting them (me even) is a discredit to those of us who do what little we can. And oh yeah, those suits people always bitch about, they are not technologists either. They decide what to implement. If they never even _hear_ about FreeBSD they will never implement it _EVER_ regardless of its technical excellence. Users provide exposure for free. I am _not_ just a load on an already overstressed system. I am a member of this community. Again, making KDE a default will help new users. Thos of us who know how to swing our X configs to and fro don't need or necessarily like KDE. Don't judge this issue on the fact that KDE is not a 20 year development. Judge this issue on the help KDE will provide newbies. Put yourself in a non-cs degreed non-programmer non-unix users shoes and then look at the issue. Remember, they may have been WHiny windows users, but they came to see what FreeBSD has to offer. If you throw that opportunity away because you don't esteem that user for a lack of technical prowess, then you have thrown away free exposure. Can FreeBSD afford to just discount users? Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 10:36:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26053 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:36:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA26042 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:36:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4018.ime.net [209.90.195.28]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id NAA60730; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:34:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990201133332.03d9c9b0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 13:34:14 -0500 To: Kris Kennaway , lcremean@tidalwave.net From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: PlayStation (was Re: From Slashdot...) Cc: Jeremy Lea , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990201075813.A2668@tidalwave.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:48 AM 2/1/99 , Kris Kennaway wrote: >On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Lee Cremeans wrote: > >> On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 09:47:36AM +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > On Sun, Jan 31, 1999 at 04:48:25PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> > > if I wanted a multimedia desktop, I'd run Linux. If I want a game >> > > machine, however, I'd run Windows. I can't GET any of the decent >> > >> > ITYM "PlayStation". HTH. HAND. >> > >> >> just out of curiosity, what do they do PSX development on? I could have >> sworn I saw RCS version strings in PSX executables... > >*** UNCONFIRMED RUMOUR *** > >One of the NT weenies I work with said the other day that they're mostly >developed using some kind of Windows cross-development environment. Further, >there's some kind of limited DirectX compatability available, which eases in >the porting of PSX games to and from the PC. > >*** UNCONFIRMED RUMOUR *** > >It would be interesting to know whether or not this is true (especially the >latter). > >Kris Go look at the Net Yaroze page, www.netyaroze.com (I think). They have software for WIN32 for it if I remember right. it's the "Black" playstation used for video game development. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 10:46:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27255 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:46:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27250 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:46:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA16453; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:46:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990201113308.04678240@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:37:11 -0700 To: W Gerald Hicks , marko@uk.radan.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990201113344W.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> References: <36B5BF8C.6436A42D@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:33 AM 2/1/99 -0500, W Gerald Hicks wrote: >Is it really that important to attract a horde of whiny >Windows users into FreeBSD? Actually, yes. FreeBSD is now seen as having faded into insignificance as Linux gathers steam. And folks who don't understand WHY that's happened are assuming that it must be inferior in quality. FreeBSD is getting slammed unfairly, and the core team isn't getting the credit and respect it deserves for its hard, high quality work. The way to fix this *is* to broaden the user base. Don't worry that they'll overload the developers with FAQs. The newbies will start to help one another. It's happened elsewhere. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 10:58:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28558 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:58:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28539 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:57:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.152]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5C9; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:57:42 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <82800.917849838@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 20:06:35 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: From Slashdot... Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> I know someone who's hacking at libsvga at the moment, and I've been >> looking at the GLide stuff myself for Voodoo(2). >> >> Suggestions? > > Do it! :) OK, I'll try to see what I can do about the GLide stuff... Some questions come to mind, does the GLide stuff need threads? Because as far as I can see at the moment it appears I have to work from the Linux sources, that will no doubt involve threads. If people have suggestions of what not, I am available for them =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 10:58:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28581 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:58:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28541 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:57:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.152]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA465; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:57:45 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <82856.917850316@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 20:06:37 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jason C. Wells" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Anyways, Jordan, I can imagine that this might be a new setting for >> /stand/sysinstall? I mean, some new option which is dependant on XFree >> and > > Probably not, once you look at it. /usr/src/release/sysinstall. Ok, call me dense, but that sentence doesn't light the proverbial lamp above my head ;) If I understand what yer saying then ye are referring to the fact that the desktop can be put under an existing configuration option? If so, which one did you have in mind to (ab)use? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 10:58:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28590 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:58:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28548 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:57:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.152]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA474; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:57:47 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990201001046.00cc8ec0@mail.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 20:06:40 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: cpiazza@home.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:38 AM 2/1/99 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >>Seriously: this might be a good thing to try... You doing it Brett? Else >>I am going to mail... > > I don't know the KDE team, nor am I very familiar with KDE (though I > hear it's good). Folks who are better acquainted with these things should > probably be the ones to contact them. Yeah well, who may that be? I myself am busy with GTk+ and Gnome stuff, but I would be happy to start to try to get KDE up and running without too much patches and provide feedback to them as well as get them interested for `our goal' so to speak. (Yeah, ports has KDE, I prefer the old-fashion way at times though) So if nobody steps forward in the next week (this week) to proclaim to be the KDE-meister then I am going to poke the KDE developers awake... > They'll probably be delighted to find a group that WELCOMES their > work. And if TPTB are willing to make it the default desktop, they > would feel right at home. TPTB? The Powers That Be? If so, what does Core have to say about this? I reckon that what you call `default desktop' will be an option in sysinstall and not a automatic thing that gets installed when X gets installed ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 11:15:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01305 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:15:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01298 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:15:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.152]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA18E6; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:15:42 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990201113308.04678240@mail.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 20:24:36 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, marko@uk.radan.com, W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 Brett Glass wrote: > Don't worry that they'll overload the developers > with FAQs. The newbies will start to help one another. > It's happened elsewhere. Dare I need to mention sites like: www.freebsdrocks.com www.freebsdmall.com www.freebsddiary.com www.freebsdzine.org undernet.freebsdzine.org www.daemonnews.org These are sites aimed at users of all kinds which have begun in the last 4-6 months. I'd say we're going slow yet steady, which I think is better than Linux' chaotic and lunatic Mach 3 speed at the moment. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 11:46:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06110 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:46:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay5.ftech.net (onyx.ftech.net [195.200.12.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06105 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:46:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from goddard@acm.org) Received: from ruby.ftech.net ([195.200.12.8] helo=dmg) by relay5.ftech.net with smtp (Exim 2.05ftechp2 #2) id 107PIA-0004Bl-00; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:45:54 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990201194246.0094de40@mailgate.ftech.net> X-Sender: dmg@mailgate.ftech.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 19:42:46 +0000 To: Kris Kennaway From: David Goddard Subject: Re: PlayStation (was Re: From Slashdot...) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990201075813.A2668@tidalwave.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Have a peek at the most recent issues of Need To Know (I suggest doing this anyway, PSX or not[*]) at http://www.ntk.net. They've had a number of relevant links to the recent shennanigans with PSX emulators, although most of the message seems to be "All gone now. Move along. Nothing to see." Dave [*] It's a bit .uk-centric, but that's not a bad thing really :-) At 00:18 02/02/99 +1030, Kris Kennaway wrote: >*** UNCONFIRMED RUMOUR *** > >One of the NT weenies I work with said the other day that they're mostly >developed using some kind of Windows cross-development environment. Further, >there's some kind of limited DirectX compatability available, which eases in >the porting of PSX games to and from the PC. > >*** UNCONFIRMED RUMOUR *** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 13:27:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18463 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:27:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18456 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:27:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25828; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:26:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36B61C13.969557C3@seattleu.edu> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 13:26:43 -0800 From: Eric Hodel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com CC: announce@bafug.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Counter Project References: <19990201011005.A20538@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations > sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install > chances are you are in this database. I have another machine I want to register, and have one in the database. Should I count registered machines in the Additional Information section? -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu Where do you want to go today? http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 13:41:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20245 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:41:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20222 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:41:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27812; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:40:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd027596; Mon Feb 1 14:40:39 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24850; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:40:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902012140.OAA24850@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: From Slashdot... To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:40:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, scrappy@hub.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <80474.917843727@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 31, 99 08:35:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The people I'm aware of who use FreeBSD as a serious desktop are > > using KDE. It complies with open standards, and has the disctinct > > This in no way explains the failure of XiG to market CDE to the > FreeBSD market whereas it had a success with the Linux market. > > Remember how this topic started, please understand: The issue wasn't > KDE vs CDE vs GNOME vs TWM and 3 sexy icons masquerading as a desktop, > the topic was commercial ISVs showing some "faith" in the FreeBSD > desktop market through sales experience. When you sell 3 copies of > something that sells thousands of copies elsewhere, this does not lead > to faith and that was the ONLY reason I brought up CDE at all - I have > zero interest in getting into a debate about its technical merits or > lack thereof since that wasn't the point in the first place. Well, I never heard that there was a CDE for FreeBSD, and even if I had, the a.out/ELF change was imminent for so long that I would only have bought an ELF version. Even so, I don't plan on doing a hell of a lot of Motif developement, which is why I would have bought it, plus I have my own Motif clone code that I really don't want them to claim that I've seen a real Motif, namelisted the libraries, or examined the header files (the reason I unsubscribed from the "Lesstif" list early on is that they were engaged in technically illegal reverse engineering practices). But that's just me. > > I think the desktop contest went down so badly because it was a > > phenomenally uninteresting thing to hack on. I personnaly didn't > > get involved because of the politics of layered software in FreeBSD; > > The ports collection has over 2000 items in it now. Arguing that this > approach was somehow infeasible doesn't really make sense in that > context given the sheer number of people who have clearly gotten their > heads around the concept enough to contribute new ports/packages. Really? How do I replace sendmail with a different SMTP agent without having to do anything to a configuration file? > > technology needed to layer software; for a desktop, this is a > > System V style rc structure. It's just not worthwhile working on > > I don't agree that desktops fundamentally require a SysV rc structure. > That's like arguing that SCO would run faster if the box it came in > was a different color - a non-sequitur at best. It doesn't -- but only if you don't give the people the choice to not install it. > > You might want to rehold the contest, if you can promise that the > > winner's code will go on the CDROM as something other than a port, > > I seriously and honestly doubt that this would make the slightest > difference. I know you don't agree, but I simply haven't seen any > real evidence to lend weight to the above assertion. Well, then, there's no risk if you do it... 8-). > > so that is not the problem. Rather, xBSD does not have > > the fbdev driver system and the next release of KGI is > > not done yet. If these problems can be fixed (not by me), > > all of this should work on xBSD as well. > > Why not by you? "If not you, who else?" :-) I was quoting the guy who was hired by creative labs in the URL that was sent around. That wasn't me saying "not me". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 13:43:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20588 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:43:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20574 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:43:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4018.ime.net [209.90.195.28]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id QAA60888; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:43:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990201164221.03d21150@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:42:57 -0500 To: David Goddard , Kris Kennaway From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: PlayStation (was Re: From Slashdot...) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990201194246.0094de40@mailgate.ftech.net> References: <19990201075813.A2668@tidalwave.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:42 PM 2/1/99 , David Goddard wrote: >Have a peek at the most recent issues of Need To Know (I suggest doing this >anyway, PSX or not[*]) at http://www.ntk.net. They've had a number of >relevant links to the recent shennanigans with PSX emulators, although most >of the message seems to be "All gone now. Move along. Nothing to see." > >Dave > >[*] It's a bit .uk-centric, but that's not a bad thing really :-) Well aparantely Duddie dropped PSEMU.. Kinda a bummer.. Just got a PSX for 70 bucks with 5 games.. good enough I guess... runs rather interesting attached to my TV tuner card. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 15:16:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03037 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:16:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA03025 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:16:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id AAA41979; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:16:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: W Gerald Hicks , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Feb 1999 00:16:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells"'s message of "Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:46:03 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 46 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > Again, making KDE a default will help new users. Thos of us who know how > to swing our X configs to and fro don't need or necessarily like KDE. > Don't judge this issue on the fact that KDE is not a 20 year development. > Judge this issue on the help KDE will provide newbies. Put yourself in a > non-cs degreed non-programmer non-unix users shoes and then look at the > issue. I mostly agree with Jason on this point. Making KDE an easily- installable option, if not the default (remember, even XFree(& isn't installed by default), and having somebody look after KDE to make sure it works out of the box, may (will?) do wonders for FreeBSD's popularity with the "masses". I am considering switching to KDE myself (I've used twm / tvtwm so far, but it has a few annoying bugs which I haven't been able to fix; its greatest strength is simplicity). It's either that or Windowmaker; if I end up using KDE, I'll certainly be willing to help maintaining a "newbie's KDE package". These are the features I personally require of a window manager: 1) It must have virtual desktops. 2) It must allow binding viewport switching to keys 3) It must allow binding the usual window operations (delete, kill, maximize, iconify, horizontal / vertical zoom) to keys 4) it must allow binding mouse movement or at least window hopping to keys. If possible, it should allow binding mouse clicks to keys (fvwm2 can do that). tvtwm has 1, 2 and 3, and I've hacked it to do 4 (mouse movement, no clicks unfortunately; my knowledge of XLib programming is rather limited). fvwm2 has all four, but looks like shit and is untrivial to configure. I didn't include configurable root window menus in the list since practically all window managers have that. One more thing I didn't mention is: the window decorations mustn't get in the way (I like thin handle-less black borders and simple twm-style title bars) Check out http://flood.ping.uio.no/~des/snap.gif for a snapshot of my current tvtwm setup. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 15:43:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06787 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:43:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06778 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:43:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (ppp-110-98.mtl.aei.ca [207.107.110.98]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA01317; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:43:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36B63BC4.A4D36EA3@aei.ca> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:41:56 -0500 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >It isn't really worth it to me unless the reboot after the > >install results in a graphical login. > > This is good! > > >You might want to rehold the contest, if you can promise that the > >winner's code will go on the CDROM as something other than a port, > >and that the components necessary to easily make it the default > >view of the system were included in the system startup files as > >a switch that can be flipped. If not, you probably don't want to > > I think that the X desktop doesn't have to be too complicated. KDE out of > the box or FVWM2 with a slicker rc file would be sufficient for new users > who _need_ something to click on. I also think the GUI is mostly important > to newbies as oldbies can/will do GUI as they please. > > This was my vision, which, I never submitted. Patch X with entries in > .xsession for Fvwm2. Run XF86Setup. Run X, run fvwm2 with a nicer config > than that stupid purple thing. Put the .fvwm2rc and .xsession in > /usr/share/skel permanently. > > Since then I have installed KDE. I propose this. Let's not get too fancy. > Let's not worry about NIH. Let's endorse KDE and give option to install > (via sysinstall) the K Desktop Environment. (Yes, I know that users can > already do this if they know what they are looking for. Put a more visible > hook for KDE where it is more easily seen for newbies. "Would you like to > use FreeBSD's default graphical desktop? It's very nice.") > > Wham bam! One decision and the whole thing is decided and done with. New > users get eased into Unix. Experienced users can go on using customized > fvwm2 as I do. > > An easy to use and very nice GUI exists for FreeBSD. No hacking required. > Here is the million dollar question: Do we want to plug KDE as the default > GUI for FreeBSD? > > I say let's do it. > > It requires no change in direction for the FreeBSD project. I know Jordan > said "server server server" and I completely respect that. FreeBSD doesn't > have to become desktop-centric _AT ALL_. The KDE people can do it for us. > > I am certain that KDE will help new users. It appeals to the FreeBSD > desktop people, all 50 of us non-hackers who love FreeBSD yet still can't > program their own .bash_profile. The KDE issue that I raise right now is > (to me) a no brainer. > > KDE, KDE, KDE. Do you really wanna jump? Do you? Common let's do it! > > (P.S. I hope I hear not one word about the GPL. Also, I left out GNOME as > it is still beta. I will say this. The GNOME people seem to have a more > platform independent philosophy. Perhaps in time.) > > Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. > Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Just a comment on wm.. Personnaly, I would put blackbox has the default wm. It can even run has KDE's win manager (replacing kwm). And it's so fast, so simple, so small, so great. Yeah, it's version 0.50.2, but it never crash. I know that it's not a "what's your favorite wm" contest", but blackbox really meet my needs. -- [Malartre][malartre@aei.ca][http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/] [French piss me off - Cartman, South Park][http://9.nws.net/] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 17:02:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16361 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:02:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16353 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:02:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28986; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:02:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd028886; Mon Feb 1 18:02:17 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA01651; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:02:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902020102.SAA01651@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: From Slashdot... To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 01:02:08 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "The Hermit Hacker" at Feb 1, 99 01:40:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > technology needed to layer software; for a desktop, this is a > > > System V style rc structure. It's just not worthwhile working on > > > > I don't agree that desktops fundamentally require a SysV rc structure. > > That one kinda lost me too...half the time, I can never figure out > *why* there are the layers that Solaris has. I can see rc0 (halt), rc1 > (single user) and rc2 (full system), but why a special rc3 (network)? > *shrug* The big win is not run levels (which should be run states, anyway), but what else it buys you. What it buys you is the ability to replace things very easily, for example, you can replace the SMTP server "sendmail" with "qmail" or "vmailer" and have it look like it's really part of the system instead of a frob you glued on with nature's original rubber cement. For example, how would you add on something that ran the first time to configure the X server, then thereafter just ran the X server, and then after the X server was running, ran a copy of xdm to set up your login? How would you drop a component into the user creation mechanism to not only configure the user's .cshrc or .bashrc, but als their .xinit and their other X configuration files? Etc.. Admittely, for KDE, you'd probably want a libvga or GGI based CORBA object viewer, and have the desktop embed as an object there, instead of eating the overhead of X, but you get the idea... > Too many choices in ports..do you go gnome or kde, twm or fvwm95? Dunno... who won the design contest that you are about to hold? 8-). On the plus side, at least with a shell prompt by default, users of FreeBSD are where DOS users were in 1982. 8-p. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 17:07:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16821 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:07:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16815 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:07:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09326; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:07:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd009194; Mon Feb 1 18:07:40 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA01863; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:07:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902020107.SAA01863@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: From Slashdot... To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 01:07:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, scrappy@hub.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <80502.917844759@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 31, 99 08:52:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Now that Microsoft is pushing NT hard for the server market, where > > will UNIX go next, when they give that up? > > I don't have any intention of giving that market up. NT is something > that it's possible to fight on the server, as hard as that might be, > whereas it's almost impossible to fight on the desktop. As I said, > the apps just aren't there on the desktop. On the server, we have > Apache, nntp, sendmail and numerous other free utilities to round out > a pretty reasonable looking functionality picture. But do you have the license server that makes Office 2000 work the 51st time you run Word? > There's no issue here of "yielding power" or an unwillingness to do so > impeding the efforts of advocates. Any "power" that the various > techies in core do yield is purely in the technical arena and, if > anything, there's not a whole lot of attention focused on PR in core > at all. There's some, not to sell short the efforts of those in core > who've gone off to give speaches or otherwise push the product, but > it's hardly the principal objective of core's technically-focused > group of developers and hence they're not likely to stand in the way > of the non-technical folks. That's kind of the point... you ought to add a marketroid to the core team. Right now, the directonal control is entirely technical. > If you've seen problems in getting non-technical people involved and > concluded that this has somehow come about through their efforts being > blocked by power-brokers, then that conclusion is wholly erroneous and > in need of a serious re-think. Heh. Sorry; despite what people say, you don't really qualify as a marketroid. 8-) 8-). > We barely have time to "manage" the technical contributions we > receive much less the non-technical ones and if you're keen to help > then by all means, take a few of the non-technical types under your > ing and show them what to do! Being non-technical, many of them are > rather lost here and need pointers on how and where they can make a > contribution. Well, you need a non-techincal contribution manager on -core; I probably wouldn't qualify, both politically, and because I'm not that capable a marketroid. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 17:16:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17556 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:16:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17550 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:16:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.2/8.9.1) id RAA49230; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:16:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:16:06 -0800 From: Matthew Hunt To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Message-ID: <19990201171606.B48985@wopr.caltech.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:16:16AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:16:16AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > 3) It must allow binding the usual window operations (delete, kill, > maximize, iconify, horizontal / vertical zoom) to keys And my $0.02 or less: These key bindings must support the Hyper and Super X11 modifiers. I make one of my Windows keys a "Hyper" and bind all of my WM functions to Hyper-combinations, leaving applications free to use the more normal modifiers. Even if a WM supports all of the modifiers, it's not always obvious how to specify that you want to use them. -- Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the intellect. -J.R. Mashey http://www.pobox.com/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 17:21:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18053 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:21:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18046 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:21:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA24425; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:18:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpdo24422; Tue Feb 2 01:18:21 1999 Message-ID: <36B6525A.2F1CF0FB@whistle.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 17:18:18 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: announce@bafug.org CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Feb. BAFUG meeting References: <19990201002828.A20353@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: > > Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group > -- BAFUG -- > > The Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly > meeting on Thursday, February 11th. This months meeting will be held at The > Silicon Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will > start at 7:30 pm. > > Agenda: > ==> Jordan K. Hubbard will be giving a post-"State of the Union" > talk. This talk will most likely include a discussion of the > release of 3.0, the move to ELF, the start of the 3.X branch, and > the possible inclusion of IPv6 into 3.1. Of course we will have our > famous "Ask Jordan" session. > > ==> Nicole Harrington and Josef Grosch will talk about their plans for > the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on February 20th at the > Robert Austin Computer show at the Oakland Convention Center. We will > also be holding our traditional Install-A-Thon at the Cow Place in > Daly City. The date for this show is February 27th. This > Install-A-Thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux > Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux). See > > http://www.bafug.org/Install.html > > for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow > Palace. > > ==> Additional speaker and/or topics are yet to be determined. I could give a "latest on Netgraph" rundown.. > > ==> bafug.org is off and running! Thanks to Jan Koum and Nicole > Harrington. The FreeBSD Retail page and Counter page have been > moved to this site. Suggestions are welcome. > > ==> Thanks for all the donations of hardware to build BAFUG scratch > machine for use at the Install-a-thons. > > ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. > > ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 18:52:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25867 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:52:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25858 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:52:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA58392; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:52:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert cc: scrappy@hub.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Feb 1999 01:07:23 GMT." <199902020107.SAA01863@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:52:25 -0800 Message-ID: <58388.917923945@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > That's kind of the point... you ought to add a marketroid to the > core team. Right now, the directonal control is entirely technical. SHOW ME ONE. > Well, you need a non-techincal contribution manager on -core; I SHOW ME ONE. I don't exactly see these kinds of people lining up to join the project. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 19:53:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02619 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:53:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02609 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:53:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06352; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:53:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd006156; Mon Feb 1 20:53:45 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00262; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:53:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902020353.UAA00262@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: From Slashdot... To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 03:53:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, scrappy@hub.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <58388.917923945@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 99 06:52:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > That's kind of the point... you ought to add a marketroid to the > > core team. Right now, the directonal control is entirely technical. > > SHOW ME ONE. > > > Well, you need a non-techincal contribution manager on -core; I > > SHOW ME ONE. > > I don't exactly see these kinds of people lining up to join > the project. Brett Glass. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 20:01:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03665 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:01:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03659 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:01:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (ppp-110-136.mtl.aei.ca [207.107.110.136]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA21791 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:01:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36B6786B.26958F5A@aei.ca> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 23:00:43 -0500 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Daemon News and FreeBSD'zine are out. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've seen it first on slashdot.. hehe. http://www.daemonnews.org http://www.freebsdzine.org -- [Malartre][malartre@aei.ca][http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/] [French piss me off - Cartman, South Park][http://9.nws.net/] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 20:21:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05709 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:21:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05697 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:21:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id UAA19350; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:21:43 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id UAA02470; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:21:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:21:06 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav cc: W Gerald Hicks , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2 Feb 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >These are the features I personally require of a window manager: > > 1) It must have virtual desktops. > 2) It must allow binding viewport switching to keys > 3) It must allow binding the usual window operations (delete, kill, > maximize, iconify, horizontal / vertical zoom) to keys > 4) it must allow binding mouse movement or at least window hopping > to keys. If possible, it should allow binding mouse clicks to > keys (fvwm2 can do that). Thank you for your support Dag. All of the above are advanced (ok, ok... more advanced than a new newbie) user items that people like you and me will hack on. None of the window managers that I have used are setup to do all of this cool stuff out of the box. KDE/kwm lacks some power and adds some bloat compare to fvwm2 to be sure. It comes out of the box very usable and very slick. If we endorse KDE, I say endorse it "as is". Don't do anything to KDE except 'pkg_add KDE'. KDE has lots of bang for the buck. My idea for calling for KDE is that it can be done AS IS. To require work and customization destroys my whole argument and takes us right back to programming some sort of custom work intensive desktop. This would have to pull developers off tech issues and would therefore be harder to support. KDE is, to me, the most painless way for FreeBSD to lay even a tiny claim to desktopdom and in the process help brand new users. Ah Well, as Jordan said in past, says, and will say again, "Show me the diffs." Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 20:57:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09318 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:57:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09306 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:57:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-73-175.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.73.175]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20819; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:57:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA01149; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:13:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: jcwells@u.washington.edu Cc: wghicks@bellsouth.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:46:03 +0000 (GMT)" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990202001357R.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 00:13:57 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 98 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Jason C. Wells" > On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > >I'd much rather see elements which attract professional technologists > >to FreeBSD, people who can bring something in with them. Looking > >around, it seems that FreeBSD is doing that pretty well although > >improvements can always be made. > > I agree. FreeBSD is doing well. > > Not everyone is a hacker. It is a big world out there. Programmers are a > small segment of society. Ahh.. but we're multiplying. Someday soon the world will be controlled by us you know. (Is Jordan *really* a member of the Trilateral Commission?) :-) > > Computer users are a much larger segment of society than programmers. > Discounting them (me even) is a discredit to those of us who do what > little we can. Oh don't get me wrong... I quite enjoy bringing people into working with computers. I just don't believe in taking them down the brain robbing path that Microsoft does. I really believe that a person needs to become comfortable with copying files, saving their work, in order to feel more comfortable with exploring their system. There are no GUI techniques available which are as universally portable (and powerful) for those tasks as working from a Unix command line. Maybe someday, but not yet. > > And oh yeah, those suits people always bitch about, they are not > technologists either. They decide what to implement. If they never even > _hear_ about FreeBSD they will never implement it _EVER_ regardless of its > technical excellence. Users provide exposure for free. Typically the suits I deal with don't care. Just get the job done and keep us out of court. Like it or not, they *are* implementing systems with FreeBSD. There is a lot of this happening... If you're talking about getting the venture capitalists and marketing types excited about controlling FreeBSD, well I suppose that would be a kiss of death. No thanks. Delivery date promises for marketing? That wouldn't be BSD would it? > I am _not_ just a load on an already overstressed system. I am a member of > this community. Yeah, but Jason's not a whiny Windows user either. Statements did not apply to you. :-) > Again, making KDE a default will help new users. Thos of us who know how > to swing our X configs to and fro don't need or necessarily like KDE. > Don't judge this issue on the fact that KDE is not a 20 year development. > Judge this issue on the help KDE will provide newbies. Put yourself in a > non-cs degreed non-programmer non-unix users shoes and then look at the > issue. I don't believe KDE is what you really want. Cool concepts, nice look, problematic packaging, licensing, and quality issues (IMHO). Besides that, *my* personal preference would be Window Maker with wINGZ/GNUstep applications. Someone else will prefer icewm. I've met more than one newbie who *likes* twm. Afterstep, fvwm, olwm... The good new is, with a bit of care and handholding, even a very new user can try each of these and decide for themselves. That's the magic of the ports subsystem. > > Remember, they may have been WHiny windows users, but they came to see > what FreeBSD has to offer. If you throw that opportunity away because you > don't esteem that user for a lack of technical prowess, then you have > thrown away free exposure. I pick my battles. Would I rather burn a lot of time with a lazy user who won't read or a studious individual who *will* bother to study and gain understanding? Well... guess. > Can FreeBSD afford to just discount users? Yes, depending on the user. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 21:15:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11433 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:15:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from home ([203.0.93.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11422 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:15:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Joel_Sutton@bigpond.com.au) Received: from localhost (jsutton@localhost) by home (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01711; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:14:45 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: stargate.home: jsutton owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:14:45 +1100 (EST) From: Joel Sutton X-Sender: jsutton@stargate.home Reply-To: Joel Sutton To: Mark Thomas cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [CHAT] Re: PlayStation (was Re: From Slashdot...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990201092059.0099fc10@pmpro.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org CodeWarrior have a product for playstation development: http://www.codewarrior.com/games/playstation/ I believe that you can get the CodeWarrior IDE for Macintosh, Windows and Solaris. Can't find and FreeBSD or Linux version though.. :-< On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Mark Thomas wrote: > At 12:18 AM 2/2/99 +1030, Kris Kennaway wrote: > >*** UNCONFIRMED RUMOUR *** > > > >One of the NT weenies I work with said the other day that they're mostly > >developed using some kind of Windows cross-development environment. Further, > >there's some kind of limited DirectX compatability available, which eases in > >the porting of PSX games to and from the PC. > > > >*** UNCONFIRMED RUMOUR *** > > > >It would be interesting to know whether or not this is true (especially the > >latter). > > IIRC, the PSX development platform is PC based, with a board set that sits > in the PC and a cross development environment under Windows (back when I > first looked at it I think it was NT -- could be wrong). --- Joel Sutton jsutton@panic.oeit.vic.edu.au "This must be Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 21:23:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12463 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:23:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cactus.verinet.com (cactus.verinet.com [204.144.246.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12456 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:23:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from verinet.com ([206.168.245.18]) by cactus.verinet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04340; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:22:54 -0700 Message-ID: <36B68BA5.86D5DFDD@verinet.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 22:22:45 -0700 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > "Jason C. Wells" writes: > > Again, making KDE a default will help new users. Thos of us who know how > > to swing our X configs to and fro don't need or necessarily like KDE. > > Don't judge this issue on the fact that KDE is not a 20 year development. > > Judge this issue on the help KDE will provide newbies. Put yourself in a > > non-cs degreed non-programmer non-unix users shoes and then look at the > > issue. > > I mostly agree with Jason on this point. Making KDE an easily- > installable option, if not the default (remember, even XFree(& isn't > installed by default), and having somebody look after KDE to make sure > it works out of the box, may (will?) do wonders for FreeBSD's > popularity with the "masses". > > I am considering switching to KDE myself (I've used twm / tvtwm so > far, but it has a few annoying bugs which I haven't been able to fix; > its greatest strength is simplicity). It's either that or Windowmaker; > if I end up using KDE, I'll certainly be willing to help maintaining a > "newbie's KDE package". I am really encouraged by the ratio of positive remarks about KDE to those of its detractors in this thread. I have become rather accustomed to the anti-KDE dogma. I personally find KDE to be an excellent general purpose desktop for my day-to-day personal and professional use. When shown to neophytes they make an immediate connection. KDE 1.1 is shaping up to be a nice refinement release; it is good to see that KDE development has had the discipline to focus on the details and I am really looking forward to it. Along with the clueless masses attracted by shiny things like GUI desktops, come a certain number of developers who find mpegs more interesting than mbufs. This is exactly what is needed for multimedia progress. When you think about it, an engaging desktop environment is a necessity to foster this sort of work. A well integrated and polished desktop has done an inestimable amount of 'good' for the RedHat and Caldera crowd. If you want a successful FreeBSD Desktop Contest, I would suggest that the incentive of rewarding the winner by adopting the result would be a good start at a second attempt. KDE is highly theme-able and is easily tailored to be very functional and provide a unique result. I envision the kdm login screen with Chuck decorating the scene in a muted red background appearing right off the RELEASE distribution CD. Is there a genuine possibility that KDE could be adopted as default[1] desktop? I dare say that KDE is worthy of it. We have the opportunity to bless KDE with an entire operating system, as opposed to just YALD[2]. You bring these people into the fold and you _will_ get a multimedia desktop. [1] Avoid the word 'standard' here. [2] Yet Another Linux Distribution -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 21:26:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12834 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:26:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12823 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:26:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-73-175.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.73.175]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA25904; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA01180; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:43:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: brett@lariat.org Cc: wghicks@bellsouth.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:37:11 -0700" <4.1.19990201113308.04678240@mail.lariat.org> References: <4.1.19990201113308.04678240@mail.lariat.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990202004332S.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 00:43:32 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 51 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:37:11 -0700 > At 11:33 AM 2/1/99 -0500, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > >Is it really that important to attract a horde of whiny > >Windows users into FreeBSD? > > Actually, yes. FreeBSD is now seen as having faded into > insignificance as Linux gathers steam. And folks who > don't understand WHY that's happened are assuming that > it must be inferior in quality. FreeBSD is getting > slammed unfairly, and the core team isn't getting the > credit and respect it deserves for its hard, high > quality work. Nonsense I say! (Too much Yin demands equal Yang :) Who can prove it, but I'd guess at a minimum 50% increase per year growth in user base over the past two years. Anything into double digits seems very respectable to me. > The way to fix this *is* to broaden the user base. Napoleonic thinking. Don't agree. The way to fix this is to take more of the available mindshare, those able and willing to contribute back into the product. Here is something that even Microsoft seems to be afraid of; > > Don't worry that they'll overload the developers > with FAQs. The newbies will start to help one another. > It's happened elsewhere. Right. Like over on the COL* newsgroups? Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net > > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 21:48:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14820 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:48:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14793 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:47:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA23324; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:47:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990201223533.04531ba0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 22:36:08 -0700 To: Julian Elischer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Feb. BAFUG meeting Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36B6525A.2F1CF0FB@whistle.com> References: <19990201002828.A20353@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org When will the March meeting be? I might be in town. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 21:48:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14843 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:48:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14805 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:47:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA23327; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:47:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990201223654.04536240@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 22:38:12 -0700 To: "Jason C. Wells" , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: W Gerald Hicks , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:21 AM 2/2/99 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >KDE is, to me, the most painless way for FreeBSD to lay even a tiny claim >to desktopdom and in the process help brand new users. And, again, a good way to try to get a good desktop BSD licensed. I'd really like to see something slick that's not GPLed.... Maybe they'd be willing. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 21:59:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15886 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:59:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cactus.verinet.com (cactus.verinet.com [204.144.246.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15881 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:59:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from verinet.com ([206.168.245.18]) by cactus.verinet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA12097; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:59:03 -0700 Message-ID: <36B6941F.5E340E44@verinet.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 22:58:55 -0700 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread References: <4.1.19990201223654.04536240@mail.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:21 AM 2/2/99 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > >KDE is, to me, the most painless way for FreeBSD to lay even a tiny claim > >to desktopdom and in the process help brand new users. > > And, again, a good way to try to get a good desktop BSD licensed. I'd really > like to see something slick that's not GPLed.... Maybe they'd > be willing. > > --Brett At this point I can't imagine there is a huge amount loyalty to GNU amongst the KDE powers-that-be. They have been treated very poorly by GNU due to the original QT license. Despite the remarkable changes that have taken place with QT as a direct result of KDE, GNU has little regard any of it. -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 21:59:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15918 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:59:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15910 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:59:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gummibear@mediaone.net) Received: from mediaone.net (we-24-130-60-145.we.mediaone.net [24.130.60.145]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12453 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:59:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36B69584.F80FA433@mediaone.net> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 22:04:52 -0800 From: Joey Garcia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Regarding Promoting KDE - Wait, why not GNUstep? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Okay, so KDE might be easy to use for newbies coming from Window 95/98/NT because it sort of looks alike, but why add an enviroment that slows down the system? I used to use KDE as my main window manager and enviromnet, but I have since then switched to Window Maker which seems to be a nice setup because of it's small memory usage and it's slick looks. GNUstep, which uses Window Maker as it's defualt window manager, seems to be making some advancement adding Gnome and KDE support (with Window Maker), and creating it's own OpenStep-like API. GNUstep doesn't use third party (at least not that I know of) software in order to create it's enviroment. The NextStep look is really nice can clean and now with Max OS X coming out soon, it might get very popular with the Mac crowd. I guess all GNUstep needs is a killer file manager, a suite of applications like KDE, methods of making the rest of X more Next-like, and other tid bits to make it more like a common desktop GUI. KDE is probably alot farther ahead than the GNUstep team, but with more help maybe it will move forward faster. Any ideas? Joey -- =============================================== Joseph Garcia gummibear@mediaone.net Downey, CA =============================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 22:00:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16131 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:00:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16125 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:00:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27714; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:00:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990201220035.A27658@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:00:35 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass , Julian Elischer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Feb. BAFUG meeting Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990201002828.A20353@mooseriver.com> <36B6525A.2F1CF0FB@whistle.com> <4.1.19990201223533.04531ba0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990201223533.04531ba0@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 10:36:08PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 10:36:08PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > When will the March meeting be? I might be in town. The March meeting is on the 11th at 7:30pm with pizza showing up at 7:15pm. We would be happy to have you attend. Let me know if you need anything. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 22:17:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17931 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:17:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17925 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:17:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.55]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA4F31 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:17:06 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 07:26:04 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: On Desktops and defaults Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just a note before arguments get momentum: Offcourse, whenever possible, anyone responsible for such changes into the BSD system, like those we discussed the last 48 hours about KDE and default desktops, will make sure that whatever he adds to the install process will made modular so that no desktop will get major preference above the other. Doing otherwise might IMHO violate the principle that is Unix, e.g. customisable to the max with nothing forced down ones throat. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 22:17:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17952 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:17:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17940 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:17:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.55]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5968; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:17:08 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 07:26:06 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, W Gerald Hicks , "Jason C. Wells" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Feb-99 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > I mostly agree with Jason on this point. Making KDE an easily- > installable option, if not the default (remember, even XFree(& isn't > installed by default), and having somebody look after KDE to make sure > it works out of the box, may (will?) do wonders for FreeBSD's > popularity with the "masses". Ignoring the ports for a minute, then KDE-libs fails on some points to make. Also the whole process is gmake'd. So out of the box will surely fail. Those are changes that might need to be made... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 22:18:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18044 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:18:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA18039 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:18:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id WAA14190; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:18:41 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id WAA05618; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:18:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 06:18:05 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: W Gerald Hicks cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: <19990202001357R.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: >> Can FreeBSD afford to just discount users? > >Yes, depending on the user. Harumph! Not the answer I was expecting but certainly one I cannot argue with. I like to give everyone the BOD but "some men you just can reach." :) Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 22:22:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18302 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:22:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA18291 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:22:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id QAA06497; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:52:19 +1030 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA31205; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:52:19 +1030 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:52:18 +1030 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Joey Garcia Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Regarding Promoting KDE - Wait, why not GNUstep? In-Reply-To: <36B69584.F80FA433@mediaone.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Joey Garcia wrote: > Okay, so KDE might be easy to use for newbies coming from Window > 95/98/NT because it sort of looks alike, but why add an enviroment that > slows down the system? I used to use KDE as my main window manager and > enviromnet, but I have since then switched to Window Maker which seems > to be a nice setup because of it's small memory usage and it's slick > looks. I don't like or use KDE, because I consider myself a "power user" with enough technical skill to not need a WM which buries everything behind a GUI (and includes things I don't need). However, this is precisely what (a large percentage of) UNIX/FreeBSD newcomers _do_ need. You and I may never make use of this option, but if we were to use UNIX for the first time under such a system, would it be any better than being dumped into a console prompt, or twm (as today)? Of course it would be. You're looking at this from the wrong point of view: it's not intended as an all-encompassing master solution which will be expected to be used by all users of FreeBSD, and in fact won't have any impact at all on people who don't "opt in" by selecting to install the environment from sysinstall. The intended audience is for people who are new(ish) to UNIX environments, and who are uncomfortable having to whip out vi and edit WM config files, or type pathnames at a shell prompt. In time, perhaps they'll decide they've outgrown the protective surrounds of KDE and are ready for something more hacker-oriented. A quick 'pkg_delete kde;pkg_add windowmaker' and they're ready to play with the big boys. > GNUstep, which uses Window Maker as it's defualt window manager, seems > to be making some advancement adding Gnome and KDE support (with Window > Maker), and creating it's own OpenStep-like API. GNUstep doesn't use > third party (at least not that I know of) software in order to create > it's enviroment. You're missing the point. This isn't about which WM is cleanest, smallest, fastest, or "best" (if there is such a thing). Sure, KDE may be big and/or bloated, and WindowMaker + a dozen other things can do the same thing as the KDE distributions, but the point is it's signficantly more complicated to either a) set up into a seamless whole for Joe Newbie to instantly be able to start using, or b) too disjointed for Mr. Newbie to use without a steep learning curve. KDE is the only such integrated desktop package currently available - there are a full suite of applications published by the same people, with a standardized interface across the lot. _That_ is all the newbie cares about; once they have matured and learned, they will be ready to experiment with other choices, and/or customize things to their liking. Remember, nothing is forcing people to use KDE if they want to do the same things they do now - they just don't check the little box in sysinstall saying "Default desktop environment". > The NextStep look is really nice can clean and now with Max OS X coming > out soon, it might get very popular with the Mac crowd. > > I guess all GNUstep needs is a killer file manager, a suite of > applications like KDE, methods of making the rest of X more Next-like, > and other tid bits to make it more like a common desktop GUI. KDE is > probably alot farther ahead than the GNUstep team, but with more help > maybe it will move forward faster. Exactly. "Might", "needs X", "maybe". A year down the track, this might be a viable option. However cool the GNOME/GNUstep/WindowMaker stuff is, it's just not an integrated newbie-ready desktop environment (and for the latter two, doesn't even try to be one). Having said all this, the last time I tried KDE was the 1.0 release, which I found to be terribly unstable. I assume from the lack of comments in this direction that the code has matured a lot since then and this is no longer a problem. If so, I think this is a superb idea and not one which can be reasonably objected to. If only I had some free HD space to reinstall KDE, I'd jump in and help get things underway. Kris > Joey ----- (ASP) Microsoft Corporation (MSFT) announced today that the release of its productivity suite, Office 2000, will be delayed until the first quarter of 1901. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 22:40:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20544 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:40:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20539 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:40:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id WAA11834; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:40:41 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id WAA01417; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:40:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 06:40:06 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Kris Kennaway cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Regarding Promoting KDE - Wait, why not GNUstep? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: >You're looking at this from the wrong point of view: it's not intended as an >all-encompassing master solution which will be expected to be used by all >users of FreeBSD, and in fact won't have any impact at all on people who don't >"opt in" by selecting to install the environment from sysinstall. Bingo! Give the man one of Grandma B's fresh apple pies. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 22:41:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20591 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:41:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20583 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:41:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA23866; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:41:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990201233040.043fcaa0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 23:31:35 -0700 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Julian Elischer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Feb. BAFUG meeting Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990201220035.A27658@mooseriver.com> References: <4.1.19990201223533.04531ba0@mail.lariat.org> <19990201002828.A20353@mooseriver.com> <36B6525A.2F1CF0FB@whistle.com> <4.1.19990201223533.04531ba0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will see if I can make it. Will definitely be there March 5-7, but do not know if I'll be there as late as the 11th. -Brett At 10:00 PM 2/1/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 10:36:08PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >> When will the March meeting be? I might be in town. > > >The March meeting is on the 11th at 7:30pm with pizza showing up at >7:15pm. We would be happy to have you attend. Let me know if you need >anything. > > >Josef > >-- >Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 >jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 23:12:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24834 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:12:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24824 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:12:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-216-76-138-183.ath.bellsouth.net [216.76.138.183]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA18767; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA01805; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:29:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au Cc: gummibear@mediaone.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Regarding Promoting KDE - Wait, why not GNUstep? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:52:18 +1030 (CST)" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990202022940E.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 02:29:40 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 114 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Kris Kennaway > On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Joey Garcia wrote: > > > Okay, so KDE might be easy to use for newbies coming from Window > > 95/98/NT because it sort of looks alike, but why add an enviroment that > > slows down the system? I used to use KDE as my main window manager and > > enviromnet, but I have since then switched to Window Maker which seems > > to be a nice setup because of it's small memory usage and it's slick > > looks. > > I don't like or use KDE, because I consider myself a "power user" with enough > technical skill to not need a WM which buries everything behind a GUI (and > includes things I don't need). However, this is precisely what (a large > percentage of) UNIX/FreeBSD newcomers _do_ need. You and I may never make use > of this option, but if we were to use UNIX for the first time under such a > system, would it be any better than being dumped into a console prompt, or twm > (as today)? Of course it would be. Depends on how well Microsoft/Apple marketing has worked you over. You can be "greeted by a console login" or "dumped into a console prompt", depending on the spin put on that process by whoever is pushing what. I obviously don't agree and believe any attempt to so completely shelter a user from needing to learn will harm the user *and* the community who must now look after them. Kinda like the welfare system does... > > You're looking at this from the wrong point of view: it's not intended as an > all-encompassing master solution which will be expected to be used by all > users of FreeBSD, and in fact won't have any impact at all on people who don't > "opt in" by selecting to install the environment from sysinstall. > > The intended audience is for people who are new(ish) to UNIX environments, and > who are uncomfortable having to whip out vi and edit WM config files, or type > pathnames at a shell prompt. In time, perhaps they'll decide they've outgrown > the protective surrounds of KDE and are ready for something more > hacker-oriented. A quick 'pkg_delete kde;pkg_add windowmaker' and they're > ready to play with the big boys. WHOA!!! Window Maker doesn't require manual editing of configuration files. As Joe mentions below, it interoperates with KDE and there is specific support provided.. Keep your eye on RedHat; rumor is that they have decided on Window Maker for their next major release. I still don't believe KDE is a good choice for newbies (maybe someday). Sorry. > > > GNUstep, which uses Window Maker as it's defualt window manager, seems > > to be making some advancement adding Gnome and KDE support (with Window > > Maker), and creating it's own OpenStep-like API. GNUstep doesn't use > > third party (at least not that I know of) software in order to create > > it's enviroment. > > You're missing the point. This isn't about which WM is cleanest, smallest, > fastest, or "best" (if there is such a thing). Sure, KDE may be big and/or > bloated, and WindowMaker + a dozen other things can do the same thing as > the KDE distributions, but the point is it's signficantly more complicated to > either a) set up into a seamless whole for Joe Newbie to instantly be able to > start using, or b) too disjointed for Mr. Newbie to use without a steep > learning curve. WHOA! Exactly the opposite experience we've observed. KDE has been extremely disjointed and instable from our experiments. On the other hand, the GNUstep stuff (especially from Alfredo Kojima) has been very good. > > KDE is the only such integrated desktop package currently available - there > are a full suite of applications published by the same people, with a > standardized interface across the lot. _That_ is all the newbie cares about; > once they have matured and learned, they will be ready to experiment with > other choices, and/or customize things to their liking. I believe most will be/have been too damaged by these sort of tools to progress very far. Learning to navigate and edit text are fundamental things, which allow a progression to more difficult ones. IMHO, it's not something which can, or should, be deferred. Start at the command prompt and master it before using a GUI. Sorry, I've had too much success over the years with this approach. > > Remember, nothing is forcing people to use KDE if they want to do the same > things they do now - they just don't check the little box in sysinstall saying > "Default desktop environment". > I don't believe KDE is up to it (yet). > Having said all this, the last time I tried KDE was the 1.0 release, which I > found to be terribly unstable. I assume from the lack of comments in this > direction that the code has matured a lot since then and this is no longer a > problem. If so, I think this is a superb idea and not one which can be > reasonably objected to. If only I had some free HD space to reinstall KDE, I'd > jump in and help get things underway. > Ok, I'm fair. Just tried it in December, but I'll give it another look. Oh boy, kmahjongg. Now _there's_ something useful. Not. Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 23:26:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27474 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:26:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27447 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:26:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12490; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:31:06 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990202183105.F10808@caamora.com.au> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:31:05 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: On Desktops and defaults Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:26:04AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org to all concerned, On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:26:04AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > Just a note before arguments get momentum: > > Offcourse, whenever possible, anyone responsible for such changes into the > BSD system, like those we discussed the last 48 hours about KDE and default > desktops, will make sure that whatever he adds to the install process will > made modular so that no desktop will get major preference above the other. > > Doing otherwise might IMHO violate the principle that is Unix, e.g. > customisable to the max with nothing forced down ones throat. to this i would like to add .. to the person doing this thing, please cocider adding a menu item or a confguration option that would allow a sight impeared person to use kde out of teh box as well .. a basic font like lucida or century schoolbook teh foundry matters little (sort off), what is most important is teh size. it needs to be about 20 point. that is about 3 times the current standard size used as teh main 'font' and the theme to be carried through to all teh ancilliary fonts fro window decorations and in window functionality. i am currently working in fvwm2, experimenting with various fonts working out what works on a pair of once top notch screens, a nec multisync mk1 (640x480 and 560x800), and nec 3d (640x480, 800x600 and one of teh worst 1024x768 i've seen). regards and thank you in advance jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 1 23:57:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02495 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:57:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02484 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:57:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA21464; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:57:18 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:57:13 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: desktop stupidity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now wait a minute! Most of you people don't know what newbies need, you haven't asked them, won't listen or believe or sit down with them to help them work it out for themselves, you're so set with your comfortable little stereotypes that you really think you know the Great Truth and have all the solutions and nobody can tell you different, least of all a loathsome newbie. You think you can just dish something up and they'll love it. What if you're wrong? Oh, yes, newbies fault. As a group you show very little respect for newbies, yet you think you can get your jollies off by patronising the types of lazy wimps that no self-respecting FreeBSD newbie would want to be associated with. With luck you might even trap some newbies into perpetual helplessness and some of you might raise your status as helpers by so doing. You're mad, the lot of you. Stop and learn (remember that?), or go back to your kernel entrails. We have a few hundred newbies here who constantly try to do the right thing, who want to learn, and are largely ignored because, not fitting the stereotype, they're not fun to pick on or you can't get warm fuzzies and the occasional sucked toe from having fun "helping" them the way you see fit. Throwing GUI at them is like telling them to eat cake. All they want is the bloody recipe and a bit of human respect. The newbies I see are put off or held back by: - lack of reliable advice as to what to do/learn first, second, third ... - lack of suitable documentation at the right pace and starting point - misunderstanding of their learning needs by others - inaccessibility of many of the tools they need to use during the first few hours, before being able to execute a learning plan - misguided attempts to "help" them which only hold them back - a constant trickle of put-downs and resultant lack of confidence - inability to create what they need for themselves or communicate needs to developers They might have only had some GUI background, but that does not mean they want to stay that way. Why the hell do you think they're running FreeBSD, because they're too stupid to know what it is? Come on! Lack of knowledge does not indicate stupidity. I'll challenge any of you to a test of crochet knowledge or skill and see how you fare! As I see it, *the* problem that faces new users is that their learning involves too many other struggles in addition to the learning process, as outlined above. Yet despite these glaring needs, you're all crapping on about how much fun you would have getting together some GUI environment and/or tools that would - attract people who have no intention of learning anything new - make it extremely difficult for our current type of newbies to get inside and find out how things work. - provide time-wasting support fodder to reinforce the stereotype Now you want to add one more problem: an environmental prison that at first makes learning seem unnecessary, and later on makes it much more inaccessible than what we have now. What on earth makes you think newbies want such a mindless and limiting GUI? They want a basic plain but non-hostile interface that is easy for them to work with initially and easy to learn to control themselves. For those who most deserve help, KDE just doesn't cut it. Nor does any other window manager without a lot more easy guides for inquisitive non-programmers and suitably annotated configuration files (yes I said files, NOT tools). I keep saying this and the time has come round again: Newbies will adapt to become whatever you expect of them. Think carefully before you act; you might just get whatever you expect. KDE is nice for what it is and should be provided with FreeBSD and made easy to install. There's nothing wrong with KDE for those who prefer it to the alternatives, or those who have a paid administrator at their elbow. It's just not *the* answer, even if you were asking the right questions. We don't have the resources to deal with attracting people who can't survive without something like KDE. We can't even cope with the beginner linux refugees and wannabe developers who are working through their newbie phase right now, and that's a more urgent priority as I see it. Newbies have contributed a huge amount during the last 12 months, and are a growing resource we can't afford to chase away or restrict to an environment of learned helplessness. What's that I hear down the back? diffs? Yeah they're coming. Don't hold your breath too hard though. It takes me a hundred times as long as it'd take someone who knows what they're doing, but it's still quicker than knocking sense into some of your collectively patronising heads, and far less humiliating. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 00:08:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04085 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04053 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:08:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12596; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:12:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990202191258.G10808@caamora.com.au> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:12:58 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Regarding Promoting KDE - Wait, why not GNUstep? Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <36B69584.F80FA433@mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Kris Kennaway on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 04:52:18PM +1030 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 04:52:18PM +1030, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Joey Garcia wrote: > > > Okay, so KDE might be easy to use for newbies coming from Window > > 95/98/NT because it sort of looks alike, but why add an enviroment that > > slows down the system? I used to use KDE as my main window manager and > > enviromnet, but I have since then switched to Window Maker which seems > > to be a nice setup because of it's small memory usage and it's slick > > looks. > > I don't like or use KDE, because I consider myself a "power user" with enough i'm just a survivor .. > technical skill to not need a WM which buries everything behind a GUI (and > includes things I don't need). However, this is precisely what (a large > percentage of) UNIX/FreeBSD newcomers _do_ need. You and I may never make use because of circumstance beyound my imediate control i'm still more or less a 'newcommer' after several years of trying .. i'm getting thier, slowly. ok, to say what i wanted to say, i've seen a lot a 'talk' go on about this ide/gui new user friendly front end. from my own experiences and those of several other 'new users', who have gon on to become 'old hands', i would challange this notion. what is really needed is a tutorial system, a docbook project (nik, grin) a way of getting the relevant information into the hands of the users in a readily digestable manner. no amoount of gui'ing is going to replace this fundamental fact of life. to those who think that i'm barking up the wrong telephon pole . take a look at the microsoft environment. by microsofts own admission ms win 95 is the gateway to ms win nt .. but look att eh number that start on '95 and stay thier. this is how it works .. anyone saying otherwise is sadly mistaken. even in a pristine environment such as 'unix' this axiom holds up. sure soe will migrate from teh read email and news and file mangle with and X file mangler, but the majority will replace one desktop with another and this is not what i see as growth, neohter do several other voices that garner a littl emor respect than mine. > You're missing the point. This isn't about which WM is cleanest, smallest, > fastest, or "best" (if there is such a thing). Sure, KDE may be big and/or > bloated, and WindowMaker + a dozen other things can do the same thing as > the KDE distributions, but the point is it's signficantly more complicated to > either a) set up into a seamless whole for Joe Newbie to instantly be able to > start using, or b) too disjointed for Mr. Newbie to use without a steep > learning curve. well thats this tuppnce hapnny worth regards jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 00:09:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04177 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail4.aracnet.com (mail4.aracnet.com [205.159.88.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04169 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:09:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@linux4life.com) Received: from sara.linux4life.com (IDENT:mark@ppp-d32.cust.aracnet.com [216.99.195.156]) by mail4.aracnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with SMTP id AAA26610; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:09:08 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:10:35 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Byram To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity In-Reply-To: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sounds like you have a few stereo types of your own Sue... Please don't be too hard on "us" insensitive brutes... :) On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Sue Blake wrote: > Now wait a minute! Most of you people don't know what newbies need, you > haven't asked them, won't listen or believe or sit down with them to > help them work it out for themselves, you're so set with your > comfortable little stereotypes that you really think you know the Great > Truth and have all the solutions and nobody can tell you different, > least of all a loathsome newbie. You think you can just dish something > up and they'll love it. What if you're wrong? Oh, yes, newbies fault. > > As a group you show very little respect for newbies, yet you think you > can get your jollies off by patronising the types of lazy wimps that no > self-respecting FreeBSD newbie would want to be associated with. With > luck you might even trap some newbies into perpetual helplessness and > some of you might raise your status as helpers by so doing. > > You're mad, the lot of you. Stop and learn (remember that?), or go back > to your kernel entrails. > > We have a few hundred newbies here who constantly try to do the right > thing, who want to learn, and are largely ignored because, not fitting > the stereotype, they're not fun to pick on or you can't get warm > fuzzies and the occasional sucked toe from having fun "helping" them > the way you see fit. Throwing GUI at them is like telling them to eat > cake. All they want is the bloody recipe and a bit of human respect. > > The newbies I see are put off or held back by: > - lack of reliable advice as to what to do/learn first, second, third ... > - lack of suitable documentation at the right pace and starting point > - misunderstanding of their learning needs by others > - inaccessibility of many of the tools they need to use during the > first few hours, before being able to execute a learning plan > - misguided attempts to "help" them which only hold them back > - a constant trickle of put-downs and resultant lack of confidence > - inability to create what they need for themselves or communicate > needs to developers > > They might have only had some GUI background, but that does not mean > they want to stay that way. Why the hell do you think they're running > FreeBSD, because they're too stupid to know what it is? Come on! Lack > of knowledge does not indicate stupidity. I'll challenge any of you to > a test of crochet knowledge or skill and see how you fare! > > As I see it, *the* problem that faces new users is that their learning > involves too many other struggles in addition to the learning process, > as outlined above. Yet despite these glaring needs, you're all crapping > on about how much fun you would have getting together some GUI > environment and/or tools that would > - attract people who have no intention of learning anything new > - make it extremely difficult for our current type of newbies to > get inside and find out how things work. > - provide time-wasting support fodder to reinforce the stereotype > > Now you want to add one more problem: an environmental prison that at > first makes learning seem unnecessary, and later on makes it much more > inaccessible than what we have now. What on earth makes you think > newbies want such a mindless and limiting GUI? They want a basic plain > but non-hostile interface that is easy for them to work with initially > and easy to learn to control themselves. For those who most deserve > help, KDE just doesn't cut it. Nor does any other window manager > without a lot more easy guides for inquisitive non-programmers and > suitably annotated configuration files (yes I said files, NOT tools). > > I keep saying this and the time has come round again: > > Newbies will adapt to become whatever you expect of them. > > Think carefully before you act; you might just get whatever you expect. > > > KDE is nice for what it is and should be provided with FreeBSD and made > easy to install. There's nothing wrong with KDE for those who prefer it > to the alternatives, or those who have a paid administrator at their > elbow. It's just not *the* answer, even if you were asking the right > questions. We don't have the resources to deal with attracting people > who can't survive without something like KDE. We can't even cope with > the beginner linux refugees and wannabe developers who are working > through their newbie phase right now, and that's a more urgent priority > as I see it. Newbies have contributed a huge amount during the last 12 > months, and are a growing resource we can't afford to chase away or > restrict to an environment of learned helplessness. > > What's that I hear down the back? diffs? Yeah they're coming. Don't > hold your breath too hard though. It takes me a hundred times as long > as it'd take someone who knows what they're doing, but it's still > quicker than knocking sense into some of your collectively patronising > heads, and far less humiliating. > > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Sincerely, %###% (0-0) ----oOO----(_)----------- | Mark Byram | | | | UNIX is all you need! | -------------------oOO--- |__I__| || || ooO Ooo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 00:10:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03742 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:06:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03735 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:06:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA05665; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from s204m82.isp.whistle.com(207.76.204.82) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpdec5663; Tue Feb 2 08:03:47 1999 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:03:47 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer X-Sender: julian@s204m82.isp.whistle.com To: Brett Glass cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Feb. BAFUG meeting In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990201223533.04531ba0@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 2nd thursday (the 11th) On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > When will the March meeting be? I might be in town. > > --Brett Glass > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 00:27:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06329 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:27:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06323 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:27:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12660; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:32:27 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990202193227.H10808@caamora.com.au> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:32:27 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Mark Byram on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:10:35AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:10:35AM -0800, Mark Byram wrote: > > Sounds like you have a few stereo types of your own Sue... > > Please don't be too hard on "us" insensitive brutes... :) thier is only one stereotype, it call arrogance, and unlike the majority of teh selfrightious bastards that keep tellin me how arrgoant i am .. i am prepared, and have done so, to admit my sin publicly. and, one other thing .. newbies are still human, which is more than i can say for the majority of, freebsd, linux, netbsd, bsdi sco nt novell et al so called 'power users'. people learn because they want too, not because they are shown a 'technically superior way' and expected to absorb it by osmosis .. hell what do i know i'm only talking to myself anyway. take care jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 00:40:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08672 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:40:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08650 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA22610; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:10:08 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id TAA01932; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:10:08 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:10:08 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity Message-ID: <19990202191007.D76680@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 06:57:13PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 2 February 1999 at 18:57:13 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > [big snip] > You're mad, the lot of you. Stop and learn (remember that?), or go back > to your kernel entrails. Feeling better now? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 00:46:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09461 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:46:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ska.bsn (d173.syd2.zeta.org.au [203.26.9.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA09431; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:46:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18619; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:25:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from atrn) Message-ID: <19990202072530.A18599@ska.bsn> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:25:30 +1100 From: Andy Newman To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread References: <19990201113344W.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 05:46:03PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 05:46:03PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Again, making KDE a default will help new users. Thos of us who know how > to swing our X configs to and fro don't need or necessarily like KDE. I liked the idea of a package/port. In fact I'd like to see a category, setups (or whatever), "themes" if you must, with a selection of looks (including "traditional console"). I can't agree with KDE as I use Window Maker and don't want to see it left out in the cold (combined with Login.app it makes a FreeBSD box look very pretty indeed, just needs a login panel graphic). If there was a set of different "themes" (as packages remember) something like sysinstall could offer a menu to these people to let them pick a look - (special case existing package install menu). This leads to the "standard root setup regardless of window manager" mess that some Linux distributions attempt to solve but that can be ignored - this is FreeBSD :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 00:48:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09825 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA09813 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:48:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id TAA21662; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:47:26 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990202194721.61980@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:47:21 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Mark Byram Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity References: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Mark Byram on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:10:35AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:10:35AM -0800, Mark Byram wrote: > > Sounds like you have a few stereo types of your own Sue... I'm precocious. > Please don't be too hard on "us" insensitive brutes... :) :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 01:04:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA12256 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 01:04:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12066 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 01:03:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id UAA21714; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:03:09 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990202200305.19753@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:03:05 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity References: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> <19990202191007.D76680@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990202191007.D76680@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:10:08PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:10:08PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 2 February 1999 at 18:57:13 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > [big snip] > > You're mad, the lot of you. Stop and learn (remember that?), or go back > > to your kernel entrails. > > Feeling better now? Yes, a little, thank you. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 01:12:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA13536 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 01:12:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA13529 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 01:12:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-216-76-138-183.ath.bellsouth.net [216.76.138.183]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA18983; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:12:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id EAA02882; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:28:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: sue@welearn.com.au Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:57:13 +1100" <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> References: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990202042845R.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 04:28:45 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 39 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for the reminders Sue. I agree that most people who are interested in FreeBSD *do* want to learn or they wouldn't be here knocking. You're probably right assuming that they have, for the most part, a more inquisitive nature than the 'average citizen'. I feel very strongly that it is important to help a brand new beginner feel comfortable with discovery through exploration. To do this, I also feel it is necessary to teach them the basics of how to save, change, and then restore things. This lends confidence and usually enhances their progress. For these reasons my approach to teaching Unix has most often been the traditional one, discussing Unix history and developing proficiency in areas that are important to Unix. (I've taught regular expressions to a second grader successfully). I do feel it is important to learn how to handle the shell, mostly for navigation at first, and how to use some editor - even 'ed' if there is nothing else available. Otherwise, it is extremely difficult to communicate answers to problems that inevitably will crop up. These skills are *not* beyond the grasp of most people, even very young ones, if the interest is there. They are valuable skills too, despite what M$ or others are saying. It's nothing that happens overnight, but I can count several hundreds of successes after almost eighteen years of involvement with Unix. Quite a few have gone on to very successful careers using these skills we developed together. Not all of them are programmers either. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 02:13:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19826 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:13:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19821 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:13:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id LAA50751; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:12:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , W Gerald Hicks , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Feb 1999 11:12:53 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells"'s message of "Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:21:06 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > My idea for calling for KDE is that it can be done AS IS. To require work > and customization destroys my whole argument and takes us right back to > programming some sort of custom work intensive desktop. This would have to > pull developers off tech issues and would therefore be harder to support. Well, the least we can do is throw in a BSD daemon graphic somewhere on the desktop, so people don't accidentally believe they're running Linux 8) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 03:36:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27734 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 03:36:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27727 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 03:36:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12916; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:40:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990202224054.I10808@caamora.com.au> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:40:54 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> <19990202191007.D76680@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19990202191007.D76680@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:10:08PM +1030 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:10:08PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 2 February 1999 at 18:57:13 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > [little snip] > > to your kernel entrails. > > Feeling better now? why is this so ? -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 04:25:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA05291 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:25:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA05283 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:25:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id WAA10603; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:55:11 +1030 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA05975; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:55:10 +1030 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:55:10 +1030 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity In-Reply-To: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Sue Blake wrote: > Now wait a minute! Most of you people don't know what newbies need, you > haven't asked them, won't listen or believe or sit down with them to > help them work it out for themselves, you're so set with your > comfortable little stereotypes that you really think you know the Great > Truth and have all the solutions and nobody can tell you different, > least of all a loathsome newbie. You think you can just dish something > up and they'll love it. What if you're wrong? Oh, yes, newbies fault. [SNIP] How about you write some of that documentation - you seem to have a good handle on what is needed. Not everyone remembers the kinds of questions and problems they had when they were learning UNIX. If you do, then more power to you - get typing and get some useful stuff out. Complaining that other people should be writing newbie documentation instead of working on other projects isn't likely to win any recruits. I think people need to get some perspective in this debate. We are talking about a WINDOW MANAGER here, for pete's sake - not FreeBSD 2000, the all-singing, all-dancing new UNIX which ships with no xterms or console drivers, manages your entire system through a spiffy Wizard interface, and is chock-full of nice, friendly, nonthreatening error messages. I'm pretty sure most people out there running X use a WM of some description - many even use KDE. What then is the problem in giving people the option of installing a nicely customized, engineered-to-hopefully-not-be-gratuituosly-confusing WM when they install FreeBSD? Given the choice of twm or KDE, which is less hostile? Nobody is claiming that we can just throw a nice glossy KDE package at the hordes of slavering newbies and they'll go away forever happy, leaving us to hack in peace. KDE is, however, a good starting point for people who are "computer-literate" (*ahem*, Microsoft-literate), who are not afraid to learn new things, but who aren't drop-in compatible with the standard UNIX way of frobbing configuration files, passing esoteric command-line options, learning arcane pathnames, and tweaking environment variables. In short, the millions of curious Win '95ers who have heard about this "new thing called UNIX", who actually have half a brain in their head, and who want to give it a go. If all they see is a 1980-era console and some scary-looking minimalist thing called twm then they'll go right back where they came from and write it off as a bad idea. I know a lot of people who are in this situation. If people want to do all the trickier UNIX things, they still can - KDE scales somewhat with user experience (which is why many experienced UNIX folks use it). Now, some other points: * Good documentation and a nice window environment are not mutually exclusive. I fail to understand why the fact that one group of people is working on the former means no-one can work on the latter. If you think the former goal is a waste of time, don't participate and do the latter instead. * This proposal was intended to provide *a possibility* for *people who want to use it*. If you don't fall in that category, don't tick the box and keep doing what you've always been doing. If you're a newbie and don't want to be "hand-held" (to whatever extent using a customized-but-standard WM is "hand-holding"), then don't tick the box and get twm like everyone else. * No-one is ever going to agree on which WM is "best". People who are slightly fanatical about their particular WM are always going to try and fight to get theirs "chosen" above the "competition". Most of the objections raised so far to this debate have been of the form "KDE sucks, it doesn't do what I want, but MegaWM is really cool, so we should use that." * This being the case: this is Free Software. If you think MegaWM is a perfect environment for people who are new to FreeBSD, then get off yer butt and build the necessary framework so people can drop it in at install-time. At this stage it's hardly like there's any competition - if it came down to it and there were 2 or 3 available "desktop environments" packaged up, then I'm sure they'd be considered on their merits. If the people currently espousing KDE never bother to get anywhere, and the only "package" option is for MegaWM (providing of course it's actually a decent job), then congratulations, you've won! Kris (wondering why the mere mention of the two letters "WM" is enough to make normally rational people suddenly become incandescent). ----- (ASP) Microsoft Corporation (MSFT) announced today that the release of its productivity suite, Office 2000, will be delayed until the first quarter of 1901. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 07:21:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25090 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:21:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA25085 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:21:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA23093; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:21:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:21:17 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , W Gerald Hicks , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Jason C. Wells wrote: > All of the above are advanced (ok, ok... more advanced than a new newbie) > user items that people like you and me will hack on. The virtual desktops might be new for people not use MGA QuickDesk or Diamond's InControl Tools on their Winblows box, but I know plenty of people I wouldn't call "experts" that depend on Alt-Tab to switch windows and Alt-F-x to close applications on their M$ OS of choice. > My idea for calling for KDE is that it can be done AS IS. To require work > and customization destroys my whole argument and takes us right back to > programming some sort of custom work intensive desktop. This would have to > pull developers off tech issues and would therefore be harder to support. Not entirely. I think it's worth it to at least put some snazzy FreeBSD wallpaper and or icons about. We don't have to throw ourselves into this, but we shouldn't half-ass it, etiher. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 08:04:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29937 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:04:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA29929 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:04:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id IAA14826; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:04:52 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id IAA24938; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:04:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:04:12 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav cc: "Jason C. Wells" , W Gerald Hicks , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2 Feb 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Well, the least we can do is throw in a BSD daemon graphic somewhere >on the desktop, so people don't accidentally believe they're running >Linux 8) Patch the "K" xpm and replace it with a BSDaemon then. :) If one really wanted to they could rename the whole damn thing the BSDE. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 08:37:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03489 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:37:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA03482 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:37:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id LAA12513; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:35:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:35:47 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert cc: The Hermit Hacker , jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: From Slashdot... In-Reply-To: <199902020102.SAA01651@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > The big win is not run levels (which should be run states, anyway), > but what else it buys you. > > > What it buys you is the ability to replace things very easily, for > example, you can replace the SMTP server "sendmail" with "qmail" or > "vmailer" and have it look like it's really part of the system > instead of a frob you glued on with nature's original rubber cement. > > For example, how would you add on something that ran the first time > to configure the X server, then thereafter just ran the X server, > and then after the X server was running, ran a copy of xdm to set > up your login? > > How would you drop a component into the user creation mechanism to > not only configure the user's .cshrc or .bashrc, but als their .xinit > and their other X configuration files? > > Etc.. What Terry's talking about here is akin to Irix's chkconfig utility. It's a generic boolean that most rc*.d scripts are tied to, which checks if a given service is on or off, and starts said service or exits. Irix is hated among many in the Unix community, and I really don't understand why. I've been adminning Irix since the release of 5.0, and yes, it sucked stability wise in those early 5.x releases, but as systems go, Irix is tied together really nicely, and gives you easy to use CLI and GUI tools (the GUI tools are just front ends for the CLI tools). I can chkconfig sendmail to no, and put my own [v|q]mail script in /etc/init.d, link it to the appropriate /etc/rcX.d/SXX[v|q]mail, and either add it to check config, with the appropriate checks, or just start it. SGI's package management system is also it's install systems (much like sysinstall in concept, but cleaner and better), and everything, down to the kernel is a package. Makes Irix real easy to patch. Sure, the SysV model isn't great, but it's a hell of a lot easier to work with than a single monolithiic rc.* system, and it makes it very easy to add the necessaries to install new software. It also makes it really easy to make the system grphical, as starting xdm is a simple manner of setting a boolean value, and rerunning the one script that handles it's startup. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 09:54:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12345 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:54:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ceia.nordier.com (m2-48-dbn.dial-up.net [196.34.155.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12334 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:54:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rnordier@nordier.com) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by ceia.nordier.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA03724; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:53:33 +0200 (SAT) From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199902021753.TAA03724@ceia.nordier.com> Subject: Re: desktop stupidity In-Reply-To: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> from Sue Blake at "Feb 2, 99 06:57:13 pm" To: sue@welearn.com.au (Sue Blake) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:53:30 +0200 (SAT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > You're mad, the lot of you. Stop and learn (remember that?), or go back > to your kernel entrails. > The newbies I see are put off or held back by: > - lack of reliable advice as to what to do/learn first, second, third ... > - lack of suitable documentation at the right pace and starting point > - misunderstanding of their learning needs by others > - inaccessibility of many of the tools they need to use during the > first few hours, before being able to execute a learning plan > - misguided attempts to "help" them which only hold them back > - a constant trickle of put-downs and resultant lack of confidence > - inability to create what they need for themselves or communicate > needs to developers Bleah! Dealing resourcefully with one's own ignorance (aka learning) is a basic life skill, and people who find the process traumatic, or who need to thrust the responsibility onto others, need remedial counselling, not support groups for everything. > They might have only had some GUI background, but that does not mean > they want to stay that way. Why the hell do you think they're running > FreeBSD, because they're too stupid to know what it is? Come on! Lack > of knowledge does not indicate stupidity. I'll challenge any of you to > a test of crochet knowledge or skill and see how you fare! Drop all this "Sue the Professional Newbie" nonsense, and write us a device driver, and I'll do you a Granny-Square Tree Skirt. :-) -- Robert Nordier To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 10:14:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13952 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:14:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail4.aracnet.com (mail4.aracnet.com [205.159.88.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA13947 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:14:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@linux4life.com) Received: from sara.linux4life.com (IDENT:mark@ppp-d10.cust.aracnet.com [216.99.195.134]) by mail4.aracnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA19769; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:14:28 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:15:12 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Byram To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Where is all the daemon art at?!?! I have looked all over for it (not being an artist myself) and all I find are Penguins!!! (everywhere) Seriously, where are all the "Chuck Galleries"...his/its cute little personage could light up anyone's day. (And promote FreeBSD) (daemonage?) On 2 Feb 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Well, the least we can do is throw in a BSD daemon graphic somewhere > on the desktop, so people don't accidentally believe they're running > Linux 8) > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Sincerely, %###% (0-0) ----oOO----(_)----------- | Mark Byram | | | | UNIX is all you need! | -------------------oOO--- |__I__| || || ooO Ooo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 10:42:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16614 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:42:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16599 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:42:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14839; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:41:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd014760; Tue Feb 2 11:41:43 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06274; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:41:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902021841.LAA06274@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread To: wghicks@bellsouth.net (W Gerald Hicks) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:41:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, wghicks@bellsouth.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990202001357R.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> from "W Gerald Hicks" at Feb 2, 99 00:13:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The good new is, with a bit of care and handholding, even a very new > user can try each of these and decide for themselves. That's the > magic of the ports subsystem. Actually, the magic is ">*PAF!*< You have a command line!". It is very easily defensible that people who don't like GUI based login, etc. (whatever desktop, WM, etc. is picked) can disable the thing, or even turn off the (default on) install of the thing. The converse is not true. At a bare minimum, there should be a "FreeBSD Desktop Express Install" as one of the installation options. Dare I say that it should include a DHCP client that defaults it to a random address on the 10 net if it doesn't get a response, and a GUI TCP settings configurator for when neither of those work... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 10:42:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16637 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:42:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.93.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16624; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:42:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA14489; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:42:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:42:09 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: Matt Dillon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/etc rc In-Reply-To: <19990125005946.U2971@futuresouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 08:40:54PM -0800, a little birdie told me that Matt Dillon remarked > > dillon 1999/01/24 20:40:54 PST > > > > Modified files: > > etc rc > > Log: > > Introduce rc script for BOOTP 'diskless' boot. Well, not quite diskless > > This brings to mind a though that's been perking in my head in various > incarnations for a while. > 1) As soon as I aquire some new hardware (primarily motherboard for this > system), I'm going to be making my home network a lot neater, with > central fileserver etc. I was looking at using CODA for filesharing. I > have two systems with flaky IDE controllers (well, they're Compaqs), so > I'm probably going to just run them diskless instead of putzing with > them. Now, enter the truely interesting part... > I have some systems I'd like to keep on -STABLE (3.0 now), like my > dialup-router, etc. And I'd like to play with -CURRENT. Now, here's the > kicker; using NFS (or perhaps preferably, CODA), set it up so this > diskless workstation can be booted as either 3.0 or 4.0. I realize this > could well involve some truely ugly hackery (or 2 floppies, but that's > cheating). Since I'll probably have both trees on the fileserver anyway, > I wouldn't think it'd be that much trouble to fluctuate. > > Who wants to be the first to shoot it down? ;> I don't normally follow -chat regularly, so I didn't see this post before, or I would have responded. There are a few weirdo issues to address with Coda to run diskless. Some are security related, some are basic functionality. 1) FIFO's and other wierdo-file-types cannot exist in /coda. Therefore you'll need an MFS or two lying around for software that requires this stuff (probably for a /tmp, and maybe a /var/run or such). 2) Setuid/setgid files should probably not exist in Coda, and largely don't already. A cross-architecture file system with a completely different concept of users and groups shouldn't be burdened with that kind of thing. As such, programs that rely on this functionality don't work. AFS hacks around this by allowing setuid-root binaries to exist in AFS local realms, but it's not clear that's the right answer. 3) Unkeyed access is insecure. That is, if you don't have some way of pre-keying and making all connections via a secure rpc channel, then you allow things into your cache that aren't cryptographically protected. So if the machine boots up unattended and doesn't have a secret, and you're using lots of stuff out of /coda, you're no better off than with NFS. And believe me, it would be nice to be better off than with NFS :). 4) Coda requires a userland daemon and local file space to use as a cache. The daemon isn't so bad with an rc.diskless, but it does require local disk space for a cache. I have never tried the cache on MFS, although I suppose it could be done. Similarly, a lot of VM is required for RVM, the logging system used for transaction support. This suggests a local disk layout of: Some boot stuff Big swap partition (to back logs and MFS) Big cache partition And then the remainder of the system over /cache. Depending on how nuts you are, sufficient memory is presumably a reasonable alternative to the cache and swap partition. Robert N Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 10:43:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16735 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:43:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ds9.sci.fi (ds9.sci.fi [195.74.0.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16730 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:43:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from juksi@iname.com) Received: from iname.com (MMXLVI.dyn.saunalahti.fi [195.197.29.246]) by ds9.sci.fi (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA29517 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:43:46 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <36B74662.E4CFB188@iname.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 20:39:30 +0200 From: Jukka =?iso-8859-1?Q?Simil=E4?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On 01-Feb-99 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > I mostly agree with Jason on this point. Making KDE an easily- > > installable option, if not the default (remember, even XFree(& isn't > > installed by default), and having somebody look after KDE to make sure > > it works out of the box, may (will?) do wonders for FreeBSD's > > popularity with the "masses". My opinion: KDE doesn't attract people to use fbsd instead of w95/98/nt - and why? when one has just installed fbsd, and he sees this option "do you want to install the default desktop of freebsd, KDE", well propably he istalls it, and is amazed and happy: nice, this looks familiar and i know how to use this. then he tries some functions and notices, this isn't the same as my windows.. why should I use this when my windows has the same looking and that has to mean it is as good as this is? -- back to windows. or maybe after he has installed the KDE he notices: What, this looks just like windows! This must be as stupid as it is! I'll buy RedHat! Besides KDE eats your comp and swallows it in HUGE pieces. I mean if you have an old 486 then KDE is not an option. And I also think it would be better to have the own default wm: * i think afterstep is nice looking, beats windows, but it hasn't enough configurability though * already if I tell someone I use freebsd (btw I use w95 at the mom;) he asks me:"isn't it something like linux?" or even "you mean linux, right?" (I'm finnish, but i guess it's the same elsewhere) I bet if Freebsd had the same wm as sco-linux it would be even more confusing. - Jukka S To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 10:51:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17703 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:51:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17698 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:51:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20017; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:51:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd019864; Tue Feb 2 11:51:33 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06588; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:51:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902021851.LAA06588@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE To: allenc@verinet.com (Allen Campbell) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:51:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: des@flood.ping.uio.no, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36B68BA5.86D5DFDD@verinet.com> from "Allen Campbell" at Feb 1, 99 10:22:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Along with the clueless masses attracted by shiny things like GUI > desktops, come a certain number of developers who find mpegs more > interesting than mbufs. This is exactly what is needed for multimedia > progress. When you think about it, an engaging desktop environment is a > necessity to foster this sort of work. A well integrated and polished > desktop has done an inestimable amount of 'good' for the RedHat and > Caldera crowd. This is a serious point which must be reiterated. Just as there are applications users that don't want to have to screw around with applications developement, likewise there are application developers that don't want to have to screw around with OS developement. I think this is the middle ground that everyone is missing seeing, and I think that a desktop is just the thing to start the ball rolling. The thing to keep the ball rolling is a "Visual G++", including an interface documentation browser, but one part of the puzzle at a time. > If you want a successful FreeBSD Desktop Contest, I would suggest that > the incentive of rewarding the winner by adopting the result would be a > good start at a second attempt. KDE is highly theme-able and is easily > tailored to be very functional and provide a unique result. I envision > the kdm login screen with Chuck decorating the scene in a muted red > background appearing right off the RELEASE distribution CD. That's the target, I think. I actually have code for an xdm replacement, called xportmon, that knows how to throw up logins on a lab full of X terminals from one process (using call conversion and session contexts to do the right thing with regard to not having been written with threads). It would be easily adoptable by anyone who wanted to do the work on it to pixmaps instead of bitmaps. The current code basically puts up something that looks like a "NeXTStep" login, and has run 32 X terminals at much less load than 32 xdm's on an old Sun box. It even does the cute little "beep" and "shake the login ``no''" that the NeXT login does... 8-). > Is there a genuine possibility that KDE could be adopted as default[1] > desktop? I would say "Time for a contest!"... 8-). Be sure to include the advocacy list in the announcement, Jordan... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 10:52:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17774 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:52:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.93.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17769 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:52:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA14504 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:45:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:45:30 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Splash screen--could we have one in the base distribution? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It would be nice to have a sample splash screen in /usr/share/examples/splash or something. I.e., the powered by FreeBSD or a spiffy daemon, etc. I'm not artist, but if someone else wants to make one, I'll be certain to use it. Also--can splash screens be scripted? I.e., a pause in the boot loader script or something--a saluting daemon would be spiffy. Robert N Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 10:53:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17842 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:53:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17837 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:53:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20810; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:53:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd020785; Tue Feb 2 11:53:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06637; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:53:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902021853.LAA06637@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread To: allenc@verinet.com (Allen Campbell) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:53:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36B6941F.5E340E44@verinet.com> from "Allen Campbell" at Feb 1, 99 10:58:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > And, again, a good way to try to get a good desktop BSD licensed. I'd really > > like to see something slick that's not GPLed.... Maybe they'd > > be willing. > > At this point I can't imagine there is a huge amount loyalty to GNU > amongst the KDE powers-that-be. They have been treated very poorly by > GNU due to the original QT license. Despite the remarkable changes that > have taken place with QT as a direct result of KDE, GNU has little > regard any of it. The ORB is GPL'ed. You aren't going to get the ORB out as BSD licensed code. The desktop, well, there you might have a chance. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 11:01:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18466 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:01:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18459 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:01:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09497; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:01:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd009413; Tue Feb 2 12:01:16 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA07100; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:01:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902021901.MAA07100@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Regarding Promoting KDE - Wait, why not GNUstep? To: gummibear@mediaone.net (Joey Garcia) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:01:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36B69584.F80FA433@mediaone.net> from "Joey Garcia" at Feb 1, 99 10:04:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Okay, so KDE might be easy to use for newbies coming from Window > 95/98/NT because it sort of looks alike, but why add an enviroment that > slows down the system? Because Kirk McKusick has promised that the number of MIPS that are delivered to the keyboard has remained constant since 1974, and we intend to keep his promise as processors get faster. It's now a holy obligation. 8-). Seriously, graphical doesn't imply Microsoft Windows. If you have alternatives, and good arguments for those alternatives, then, why, it's time for a contest! > KDE is probably alot farther ahead than the GNUstep team, but with > more help maybe it will move forward faster. I have to say that those KDE guys are maniacs. You really need to go look at the current status of "KOffice". I'm not positive, but these might be the same nuts who brought us the ASCII art VGA emulator for Televideo/VT100 terminals... truly the type of hackers we had in the US back in the early to mid 80's... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 11:04:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18746 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:04:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18732 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:04:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16541; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:04:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd016448; Tue Feb 2 12:04:23 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA07243; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:04:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902021904.MAA07243@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On Desktops and defaults To: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:04:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai" at Feb 2, 99 07:26:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Just a note before arguments get momentum: > > Offcourse, whenever possible, anyone responsible for such changes into the > BSD system, like those we discussed the last 48 hours about KDE and default > desktops, will make sure that whatever he adds to the install process will > made modular so that no desktop will get major preference above the other. > > Doing otherwise might IMHO violate the principle that is Unix, e.g. > customisable to the max with nothing forced down ones throat. You mean like SMTP is modular? Seriously, the way to get momentum is to pull in the same direction, for better or for worse. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 11:12:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19528 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:12:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr164328-a.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.112.125.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19521 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:12:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: (from norn@localhost) by norn.ca.eu.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id LAA00315; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:11:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:11:30 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: Chris Piazza From: Chris Piazza To: Mark Byram Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Feb-99 Mark Byram wrote: > > Where is all the daemon art at?!?! I have looked all over for > it (not being an artist myself) and all I find are Penguins!!! > (everywhere) > Seriously, where are all the "Chuck Galleries"...his/its cute little > personage could light up anyone's day. (And promote FreeBSD) > (daemonage?) > http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/bsd/ There's a few ;-) -- Chris Piazza Abbotsford, BC, Canada cpiazza@home.net finger norn@norn.ca.eu.org for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 11:54:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23595 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:54:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23564 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:53:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.127]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA6462; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:53:53 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199902021904.MAA07243@usr05.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 21:02:57 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: On Desktops and defaults Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Feb-99 Terry Lambert wrote: >> Just a note before arguments get momentum: >> >> Offcourse, whenever possible, anyone responsible for such changes into >> the BSD system, like those we discussed the last 48 hours about KDE >> and default desktops, will make sure that whatever he adds to the >> install process will made modular so that no desktop will get major >> preference above the other. >> >> Doing otherwise might IMHO violate the principle that is Unix, e.g. >> customisable to the max with nothing forced down ones throat. > > You mean like SMTP is modular? I left that one out of purpose, for reasons well understood... My own personal voice about that is the same: modularise and let the user decide. > Seriously, the way to get momentum is to pull in the same direction, > for better or for worse. Well, the way I can see it if we make one desktop the preferred, default one, yer always bound to get arguments otherwise. So this is the best way to solve these problem before they arrive... I hope the rest agrees on this, as it is still the wagon we call (Free)BSD which we need to pull with the entire community. Comments are offcourse always welcome, especially after my beautysleep =P --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 11:59:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24346 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:59:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24151 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:58:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA27510; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:58:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:58:34 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Terry Lambert cc: W Gerald Hicks , jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: <199902021841.LAA06274@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > Dare I say that it should include a DHCP client that defaults it to > a random address on the 10 net if it doesn't get a response, and > a GUI TCP settings configurator for when neither of those work... Actually, DHCP clients that can't get an address are supposed to use an address in the 169.254/16 block, according to the IETF Internet Draft "Automatically Choosing an IP Address in an Ad-Hoc IPv4 Network" (it's at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dhc-ipv4-autoconfig-03.txt) While it's not an RFC, IANA's already set aside the address space, and several manufacturers (including M$) have implemented it. Then again, the implementation is actually up to the DHCP client coders, so I'll check the ISC DHCP mailing list archives about that. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 12:04:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24880 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:04:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24874 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:04:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16968; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:04:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd016801; Tue Feb 2 13:04:04 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA15607; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:03:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902022003.NAA15607@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: desktop stupidity To: sue@welearn.com.au (Sue Blake) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:03:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> from "Sue Blake" at Feb 2, 99 06:57:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Now wait a minute! Most of you people don't know what newbies need, you > haven't asked them, won't listen or believe or sit down with them to > help them work it out for themselves, you're so set with your > comfortable little stereotypes that you really think you know the Great > Truth and have all the solutions and nobody can tell you different, > least of all a loathsome newbie. You think you can just dish something > up and they'll love it. What if you're wrong? Oh, yes, newbies fault. I don't think that a GUI desktop necessarily targets newbies. It targets the segment of the population that's interested in doing software developement on non-Microsoft platforms, but is not interested in developing the platforms themselves. I also think that it can allay the fears of what you call "newbies" sufficiently to get people, who would otherwise not get involved, into the game in the first place. Neither of these should be discounted, merely because there isn't mass usability testing in throwing out something that has mass appeal. Yes, you may not get the best implementation you could have possibly gotten out of the deal, but a suboptimal desktop beats no desktop. I don't know of any serious developer that doesn't have X installed, with one or more screens full of xterms. A desktop doesn't "hide" the ability to get a command line any more than you can get away from the MS-DOS prompt in Microsoft Windows. I also think that you haven't thought this through from a disability perspective. If the install process is to put in the CDROM, select "whole disk", and kick "express install", and that leaves you at a graphical login, that's a definite win. >From a graphical console, you have the option of displaying larger fonts, text-to-speech, etc.. >From a key-down/key-up keyboard, you have the option of starting from nothing and kicking into a disability mode -- in a way that people with disabilities can activate it. All this on verbal/written/braille/whatever instructions simple enough to recall from memory. One of Windows 9x's strengths is the ability to hold down a shift key for a long time to activate a disability mode. How do you do this with the normal console? How do you display the normal console text? Try typing with a pencil in your mouth, or a vibro-massager on your hand. Here's some examples: Sticky keys CTRL, ALT, and SHIFT latch on and reset on code generating keys, instead of having to be held down at the same time as another key. Turn modifier latch off and/or toggle on repeat modifier keystroke Filter keys Ignore brief or repeated keystrokes Key Beep Beep when a modifier key is latched (or toggled). Visual bell Visual notification for hearing impaired Captioning Programs that would make noise put up a caption ("tooltip") instead. High Contrast Use a high contrast "theme". Required for devices like optically coupled "pinreaders" Keyboard Mouse Use num-lock to latch numeric keypad as mouse motion control Magnify Magnify the display contents; either the virtual display size is reduced, or the display goes pan-and-scan Idle Reset Turn off features (need shift hold to reenable) to allow for multiuser computers Warn {en|dis}able Visual or audio warning on feature enable/disable Status bar Show feature status (modifier key states, etc.) on a status bar Serial keyboard Standard input device on serial port; select port, baud rate Serial display Many pinreaders support serial input as well as optical; better resoloution and control, when wired into the mouse pointer (imagine having two mice you had to switch between, neither of which you could see. Sure, you could offer maybe 1/10th of these and other capabilities in a revised text mode console driver. But to do the job right *requires* a *standard* GUI. > We have a few hundred newbies here who constantly try to do the right > thing, who want to learn, and are largely ignored because, not fitting > the stereotype, they're not fun to pick on or you can't get warm > fuzzies and the occasional sucked toe from having fun "helping" them > the way you see fit. Throwing GUI at them is like telling them to eat > cake. All they want is the bloody recipe and a bit of human respect. Different problem set, othrogonal to the existance or nonexistance of a GUI, IMO. > The newbies I see are put off or held back by: > - lack of reliable advice as to what to do/learn first, second, third ... > - lack of suitable documentation at the right pace and starting point > - misunderstanding of their learning needs by others > - inaccessibility of many of the tools they need to use during the > first few hours, before being able to execute a learning plan > - misguided attempts to "help" them which only hold them back > - a constant trickle of put-downs and resultant lack of confidence > - inability to create what they need for themselves or communicate > needs to developers A lot of this can be addressed by creating a larger developer base, so that there is a higher developer/newbie ratio, if nothing else. I think that the majority of the work to be done is in getting disciplines other than computer science involved. For example, take your items, in order: 1) Offer less choices in the express install, so that there is an implicit order to what to do 2) Implement a common desktop, such that a documentor can use the system as a documentation workbench instead of becoming a system admin (seeing a theme here?) 3) Involve the CS 101 folks in teching about FreeBSD, instead of Windows. That means that it has to be accessible at less depth than is currently possible. 4) Put the tools up front, and in their face. 5) Increase the quality and applicability of various levels of help by growing the community to sufficient size to be able to break help into a strata, instead of a binary "newbie"/"guru" switch, as is currently the case. 6) Seperate the forums by strata to avoid "level of question" related problems. 7) Create a larger community that can respond to requests (as far as the "communicate needs" issue goes... this is an issue of socialization, and beyond the scope of the project). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 12:49:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00427 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:49:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00419 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:49:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.127]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA2E40; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:48:53 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 21:57:57 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Sue Blake Subject: RE: desktop stupidity Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don't take anything written below as a personal attack or an attack upon people, that isn't like me... I am told I just have a tendency to write `sharp' On 02-Feb-99 Sue Blake wrote: > Now wait a minute! Most of you people don't know what newbies need, you Hmm, since I added a bunch of e-mails to the whole desktop piece I do have to voice my opinion on this one. I don't know what newbies need? Hmm, funny to hear such an argument from a person which I think has worked longer with FreeBSD than I do... > haven't asked them, won't listen or believe or sit down with them to > help them work it out for themselves, you're so set with your > comfortable little stereotypes that you really think you know the Great > Truth and have all the solutions and nobody can tell you different, > least of all a loathsome newbie. You think you can just dish something > up and they'll love it. What if you're wrong? Oh, yes, newbies fault. Again, we never proclaimed we know the Great Truth, in fact, at my work and in the IRC channel on/in which I give my meager knowledge as advice to others (whom for the majority of them are indeed newbies) I think that I pretty well know what newbie users appreciate. But I also try to see further down the road as to what steps to take not to obstruct/madden more experience users. > As a group you show very little respect for newbies, yet you think you > can get your jollies off by patronising the types of lazy wimps that no > self-respecting FreeBSD newbie would want to be associated with. With > luck you might even trap some newbies into perpetual helplessness and > some of you might raise your status as helpers by so doing. Ugh, now ye are generalising as well Sue. How much I can often agree with ye, I do have to say I disagree with ye on this one... In fact, compared to the Linux community I have to say that the help and kindness we get from the lists and IRC channels surpasses the Linux ones (I know). > You're mad, the lot of you. Stop and learn (remember that?), or go back > to your kernel entrails. I did learn else I wouldn't have come this far as I am now. And the stupidity that Mike, Jordan, Eivind, Terry or what other programmers there are out there proclaim to have when saying they fixed a `stupid bug introduced by themselves' is the stupidity most of us can only aspire to... > We have a few hundred newbies here who constantly try to do the right > thing, who want to learn, and are largely ignored because, not fitting > the stereotype, they're not fun to pick on or you can't get warm > fuzzies and the occasional sucked toe from having fun "helping" them > the way you see fit. Throwing GUI at them is like telling them to eat > cake. All they want is the bloody recipe and a bit of human respect. OK, might we care to rebalance the whole situation? When I started using Unix (back when I was at school in '97-'98) I started using Solaris 2.5. This one starts with a XDM/X session with some xterms. I then used Unix for the first time. About 6-8 months ago I started using FreeBSD. I hit the wall of not knowing where to go. I went and checked out the internetsite, ordered the 2.2.6 CD-ROMs and looked and read the install instructions carefully (which is something I normally don't do). I also went through the FAQ and Handbook and tried to install it. I failed horrendously. But I didn't give up and tried again and again until I understood what went wrong. This is the true essence that marks progress, trial and error. One can explain time and again, but without proper understanding of the how and why it works or fails is fundamental to the whole process... FAQs, How-to's or handbooks never did solve stubborness, stupidity or outright idiocy. (Please do note that I am not saying every newbie is stupid or an idiot, heck there were times when I was making stupid comments, only to go out and try to uncover _why_ I was making everyone laugh =) > The newbies I see are put off or held back by: > - lack of reliable advice as to what to do/learn first, second, third #1 as what my mentor (our Unix guru at work) said: man everything, man is Unix' greatest command. Which I think is true. `man' has solved a lot of things which otherwise would have made me go `d'oh'. > - lack of suitable documentation at the right pace and starting point www.freebsd.org has links to the FAQ, Handbook, and a lot more other resources towards documentation. Sorry but I cannot see in which way the Project has failed to provide support for that. And what is exactly the right place in your opinion? I assumed ye were referring to www.freebsd.org. Mayhaps ye care to tell me/us? > - misunderstanding of their learning needs by others This is something that varies from individual to individual. All my highschool teachers sucked at this point except my chemisty, maths and physics teachers which knew how to make the matter interesting, which was a combination of learning one way of doing it and then introducing a few problems which were akin, but required insight to see in what way they differed. > - inaccessibility of many of the tools they need to use during the > first few hours, before being able to execute a learning plan > - misguided attempts to "help" them which only hold them back > - a constant trickle of put-downs and resultant lack of confidence > - inability to create what they need for themselves or communicate > needs to developers Hmm... Call most of us apathic towards the needs of newbies. What ye are saying yerself is mayhaps even more dangerous: patronising newbies. It might mean one never gets rid of them (as in getting rid of them to explore on themselves). > They might have only had some GUI background, but that does not mean > they want to stay that way. Why the hell do you think they're running > FreeBSD, because they're too stupid to know what it is? Come on! Lack > of knowledge does not indicate stupidity. I'll challenge any of you to > a test of crochet knowledge or skill and see how you fare! Ehm, ye'd be surprised towards the number of people mailing -questions with questions as to what FreeBSD is, whether it resembles Windows 95, whether it is some form of Linux. As far as I see they do have to pass the www.freebsd.org/index.html on their way to the mailinglist addresses. > As I see it, *the* problem that faces new users is that their learning > involves too many other struggles in addition to the learning process, > as outlined above. Yet despite these glaring needs, you're all crapping > on about how much fun you would have getting together some GUI > environment and/or tools that would > - attract people who have no intention of learning anything new Aren't ye contradicting yerself now? Not all newbies which we currently get to join the flock are the great new newbies which will want to learn all and everything. > - make it extremely difficult for our current type of newbies to > get inside and find out how things work. How is this being done? Whenever I have some spare time I try to help out some people on -questions, in the IRC channel, provide some opinions on matters all to help the Project as a whole to make it more enjoyable for the majority. > - provide time-wasting support fodder to reinforce the stereotype Sorry, I don't get this one... Where is this being done then? > Now you want to add one more problem: an environmental prison that at > first makes learning seem unnecessary, and later on makes it much more > inaccessible than what we have now. What on earth makes you think > newbies want such a mindless and limiting GUI? They want a basic plain > but non-hostile interface that is easy for them to work with initially > and easy to learn to control themselves. For those who most deserve > help, KDE just doesn't cut it. Nor does any other window manager > without a lot more easy guides for inquisitive non-programmers and > suitably annotated configuration files (yes I said files, NOT tools). OK, question back at ye: what makes ye so sure they _don't_ want one? > I keep saying this and the time has come round again: > > Newbies will adapt to become whatever you expect of them. Scratch newbies and replace with people. This is a human trait, not one exclusive to newbies. > Think carefully before you act; you might just get whatever you expect. Again, human trait, and goes as well for newbies as well as those of us who have worked a `little' longer with FreeBSD/Unix. > KDE is nice for what it is and should be provided with FreeBSD and made > easy to install. There's nothing wrong with KDE for those who prefer it > to the alternatives, or those who have a paid administrator at their > elbow. It's just not *the* answer, even if you were asking the right > questions. We don't have the resources to deal with attracting people > who can't survive without something like KDE. We can't even cope with > the beginner linux refugees and wannabe developers who are working > through their newbie phase right now, and that's a more urgent priority > as I see it. Newbies have contributed a huge amount during the last 12 > months, and are a growing resource we can't afford to chase away or > restrict to an environment of learned helplessness. I do hope ye read the other mail I sended Sue titled 'Desktops and Defaults'. Basically what I said there was that we should never fall into the mistake of making one thing the default for every user thus forcing it down their throat (and I still feel the same about it on the SendMail/Postfix issue). > What's that I hear down the back? diffs? Yeah they're coming. Don't > hold your breath too hard though. It takes me a hundred times as long > as it'd take someone who knows what they're doing, but it's still > quicker than knocking sense into some of your collectively patronising > heads, and far less humiliating. Sue, ye remind me of someone. Read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series and pay attention to Nynaeve... =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 13:57:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10687 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:57:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10655 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:57:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29554; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:57:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd029475; Tue Feb 2 14:56:58 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15111; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:56:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902022156.OAA15111@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread To: jooji@webnology.com (Jasper O'Malley) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:56:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, wghicks@bellsouth.net, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jasper O'Malley" at Feb 2, 99 01:58:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Dare I say that it should include a DHCP client that defaults it to > > a random address on the 10 net if it doesn't get a response, and > > a GUI TCP settings configurator for when neither of those work... > > Actually, DHCP clients that can't get an address are supposed to use an > address in the 169.254/16 block, according to the IETF Internet Draft > "Automatically Choosing an IP Address in an Ad-Hoc IPv4 Network" (it's at > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dhc-ipv4-autoconfig-03.txt) > While it's not an RFC, IANA's already set aside the address space, > and several manufacturers (including M$) have implemented it. > > Then again, the implementation is actually up to the DHCP client coders, > so I'll check the ISC DHCP mailing list archives about that. It's what Windows 98 does. So if you are throwing together an ad-hoc network with Windows 98 clients, you will use 10. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 14:00:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11089 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:00:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10964 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:59:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07707; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:59:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd007614; Tue Feb 2 14:59:28 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15205; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:59:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902022159.OAA15205@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On Desktops and defaults To: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:59:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai" at Feb 2, 99 09:02:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Seriously, the way to get momentum is to pull in the same direction, > > for better or for worse. > > Well, the way I can see it if we make one desktop the preferred, default > one, yer always bound to get arguments otherwise. So this is the best way > to solve these problem before they arrive... > > I hope the rest agrees on this, as it is still the wagon we call (Free)BSD > which we need to pull with the entire community. > > Comments are offcourse always welcome, especially after my beautysleep =P Well, the issue is that default modules aren't modular. I think that a default desktop module that you have to opt out of is the best strategy for embracing the command-line challenged. If that means that the arguments commence until such time as the default can be modularly removed... good. Something needs to drive the modularization that isn't happening now. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 14:28:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16522 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:28:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16509 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA29893; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:28:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:28:50 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Terry Lambert cc: wghicks@bellsouth.net, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: <199902022156.OAA15111@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > It's what Windows 98 does. What is what Windows 98 does? AFAIK, Windows 98 uses the 169.254.X.X addresses. Or at least it did yesterday, when someone on the office LAN fired up a new Win98 box whose NIC's Ethernet address I hadn't added to my DHCP server's configuration file yet. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 15:04:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22600 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:04:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from eagle.phc.igs.net (eagle.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22515 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:04:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eagle@eagle.phc.igs.net) Received: by eagle.phc.igs.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 383AC1C99A; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:01:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:01:25 -0500 (EST) From: eagle@phc.igs.net Subject: RE: desktop stupidity To: asmodai@wxs.nl Cc: sue@welearn.com.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-Id: <19990202230125.383AC1C99A@eagle.phc.igs.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org first off all _DON'T_ reccomend postfix to a newbie. just let me say that first. second there are many classes of newbies, we try to often to group them together. Most of the freebsd newbies i have run accross are putting forth a lot of effort into getting what they want and need out of there computer. Giving them a graphical starting point could very easily cut down on the learning curve and help to get rid of "freebsd is harder to install than linux" thing. Even though it is garbage that is the way freebsd endsup being presented by those who aren't in the know. Giving "newbies" a _COMMON_ working enviroment also makes it easier for them to share there experience with others. It' doesn't take away any of the options of changing it once they learn how. A very possible benefit of twm. but anyway rob. a.k.a chmod on #freebsd on the undernet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 15:07:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23114 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:07:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23100 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:07:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01390; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:07:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd001283; Tue Feb 2 16:07:26 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA06687; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:07:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902022307.QAA06687@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread To: jooji@webnology.com (Jasper O'Malley) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:07:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, wghicks@bellsouth.net, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jasper O'Malley" at Feb 2, 99 04:28:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It's what Windows 98 does. > > What is what Windows 98 does? AFAIK, Windows 98 uses the 169.254.X.X > addresses. Or at least it did yesterday, when someone on the office > LAN fired up a new Win98 box whose NIC's Ethernet address I hadn't added > to my DHCP server's configuration file yet. Hm. My experience is that it comes up on the 10.x.x.x net. This would make sense, in that the statistical protection is 256 times better than the 169.254.x.x net. I would be interested in other people's experiences, for the purpose of establishing bug compatible behavioural guidelines. Are you perhaps running an early/MSDN release of Windows 98? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 15:30:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26469 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:30:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from niobe.ewox.org (ppp065.uio.no [129.240.240.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26444 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:30:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@niobe.ewox.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by niobe.ewox.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) id AAA17462; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:30:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Window managers From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Feb 1999 00:30:18 +0100 Message-ID: <86g18oo039.fsf@niobe.ewox.org> Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just a quick word about window managers - after trying blackbox (pretty, but severely underfeatured), WindowMaker (so user-friendly it gets obnoxious) and gwm (over-featured and under-documented), I fell back to fvwm2, and wrote a config file nearly from scratch which emulates my old tvtwm setup rather well, except it's better :) It's available at . A snapshot is available in the same directory under the name snap.gif. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 15:31:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26611 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:31:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26606 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:31:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA31209; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:31:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:31:19 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Terry Lambert cc: wghicks@bellsouth.net, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: DHCP Autoconfig (Was: Lets Endorse KDE) In-Reply-To: <199902022307.QAA06687@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > Hm. My experience is that it comes up on the 10.x.x.x net. I've never seen that. There was a big discussion about it on the ISC DHCP mailing list when Win98 retail was released. > This would make sense, in that the statistical protection is 256 > times better than the 169.254.x.x net. If I'm not mistaken, the autoconfiguration process checks the address it picks before it sticks with it. From the IETF Internet Draft on the subject: Once a DHCP Client has determined it must auto-configure an IP address, it chooses an address. The algorithm for choosing an address is implementation dependant. The address range to use MUST be "169.254/16", which is registered with the IANA as the LINKLOCAL net. If choosing an address in this range, the DHCP Client MUST not use the first 256 or the last 256, as these are reserved for future use. When an address is chosen, the DHCP Client MUST test to see if the address is already in use. If the network address appears to be in use, the client MUST choose another address, and try again. The client MUST keep choosing addresses until it either finds one, or it has tried more then the autoconfig-retry count. The autoconfig- retry count is implementation specific, and should be based on the algorithm used for choosing an IP address. This retry count is present to make sure that DHCP Clients auto-configuring on busy auto-configured network segments do not loop infinitely looking for an IP address. > Are you perhaps running an early/MSDN release of Windows 98? Nope. Standard OEM release. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 15:34:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27017 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:34:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA27012 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:34:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA31284; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:34:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:34:36 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Terry Lambert cc: wghicks@bellsouth.net, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DHCP Autoconfig (Was: Lets Endorse KDE) In-Reply-To: <199902022307.QAA06687@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > Hm. My experience is that it comes up on the 10.x.x.x net. > > This would make sense, in that the statistical protection is 256 > times better than the 169.254.x.x net. Yes, but a lot of people are actually using the 10.X.X.X net for real networks, and most of them have them subnetted. IMHO, it's best to use LINKLOCAL (169.254/16) addresses, so as not to conflict with existing network topologies, and to quickly identify which machines can't (or aren't authorized to) talk to the DHCP server. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 15:38:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27512 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:38:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA27507 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:38:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA31361; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:38:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:38:39 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Terry Lambert cc: wghicks@bellsouth.net, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DHCP Autoconfig (Was: Lets Endorse KDE) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Argh. Sorry for the triple post. In the IETF I-D: 5. Current Vendor Implementations As of this writing, Microsoft and Apple have operating systems that contain this functionality. Descriptions of the implementation dependant parts are listed below. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 16:04:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01839 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:04:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01783 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:04:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id BAA54283; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:04:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Window managers References: <86g18oo039.fsf@niobe.ewox.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Feb 1999 01:04:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav's message of "03 Feb 1999 00:30:18 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > A snapshot is available in the same directory under the name snap.gif. Oh, and that snapshot illustrates the only annoying bug in fvwm2: every time the window list (FvwmWinList) is resized (which happens every time you map or unmap a window), it crawls one pixel up and to the left. Grrrr... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 16:26:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06621 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:26:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06615 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:26:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA23297; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:25:57 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990202182557.O16540@futuresouth.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:25:57 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: W Gerald Hicks , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:16:16AM +0100 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 12:16:16AM +0100, a little birdie told me that Dag-Erling Smorgrav remarked > "Jason C. Wells" writes: > > Again, making KDE a default will help new users. Thos of us who know how > > to swing our X configs to and fro don't need or necessarily like KDE. > > Don't judge this issue on the fact that KDE is not a 20 year development. > > Judge this issue on the help KDE will provide newbies. Put yourself in a > > non-cs degreed non-programmer non-unix users shoes and then look at the > > issue. > > I mostly agree with Jason on this point. Making KDE an easily- > installable option, if not the default (remember, even XFree(& isn't > installed by default), and having somebody look after KDE to make sure > it works out of the box, may (will?) do wonders for FreeBSD's > popularity with the "masses". Just to toss my personal red cents in... (hey, doesn't everbody?) I'm a twm person. I'm playing with ctwm now to see what I can do with it. I love it. It's lightweight, has basically every feature I want and a lot I don't. On the flip side, it DOES take a bit of work to set it up the way you want, and the defaults suck like an intern. If we had to make a new 'default X wm/etc', my vote would have to be for fvwm. The first system I ever used X on ran a fairly simple fvwm setup, with a button bar handling a few common things (netscape window, a mail(pine) window, xterm, few other things) and a root menu with a few more intricate. Still very simple, but it was obvious how to use it. I quickly (as soon as I got a decent config) switched over to twm, having seen and used it on my second X experience, but I still like fvwm; it has a good combination of cleanliness, configurability, and friendliness. Get a good basic config, and it'd be perfect for 'newbies' of any classification, IMO. --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 16:32:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07925 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:32:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.196.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA07920 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:32:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:UMl2sZ3o8TjyiF8RnhB34oRj+YW2yihk@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA24931; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:32:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.7.6+2.6Wbeta7/3.4W/zodiac-May96) with ESMTP id JAA26671; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:35:04 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199902030035.JAA26671@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: Robert Watson cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: Splash screen--could we have one in the base distribution? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:45:30 EST." References: Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:35:03 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Also--can splash screens be scripted? I.e., a pause in the boot loader >script or something--a saluting daemon would be spiffy. The splash screen can only be shown after the kernel starts initializing itself. There is no way in the current implementation of the splash screen to display a picture in the boot loader. Kazu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 16:34:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08226 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:34:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08221 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:34:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id BAA54424; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:34:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Jason C. Wells" , W Gerald Hicks , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread References: <19990202182557.O16540@futuresouth.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Feb 1999 01:34:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Matthew D. Fuller"'s message of "Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:25:57 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > Just to toss my personal red cents in... (hey, doesn't everbody?) > > I'm a twm person. I'm playing with ctwm now to see what I can do with > it. I love it. It's lightweight, has basically every feature I want and > a lot I don't. > > On the flip side, it DOES take a bit of work to set it up the way you > want, and the defaults suck like an intern. If we had to make a new > 'default X wm/etc', my vote would have to be for fvwm. [...] Actually, fvwm2 is less memory-hungry than twm, and has a lot more features. Don't even consider fvwm; it has no advantage over fvwm2, and its configuration syntax is very messy. Check out the fvwm2 configuration (and accompanying snapshot) I mentioned in a previous message. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 16:43:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09328 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:43:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09316 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:43:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-41.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.41]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA04468 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:43:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA09141 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:42:46 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199902030042.SAA09141@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: KDE Stability (was Re: Regarding Promoting KDE - Wait, why not GNUstep?) In-reply-to: Message from Kris Kennaway of "Tue, 02 Feb 1999 16:52:18 +1030." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 18:42:46 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway writes: [...] > Having said all this, the last time I tried KDE was the 1.0 release, which I > found to be terribly unstable. I assume from the lack of comments in this > direction that the code has matured a lot since then and this is no longer a > problem. If so, I think this is a superb idea and not one which can be > reasonably objected to. If only I had some free HD space to reinstall KDE, I'd > jump in and help get things underway. I too tried KDE 1.0 and got tired of *.core files laying around. Today installed the most current port of KDE 1.1 on my 2.2.8 box and putted around with kmail to see if it could make me happy. Kmail reminds me a lot of Eudora. If only message composition/viewing were in a separate floating window (as I'm using with exmh2, and used to under the Mac versions of Eudora) then I'd almost be happy. Guess my first sin was to run kmail under twm. Kmail spits out way too many debugging messages, many of which say, "something failed." Attempts to launch Help generated a core dump, possibly because I wasn't running kwm. IMHO if KDE was fit for public consumption then it would bother to find out it lacks some resource before core dumping. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 17:17:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13784 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:17:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13779 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:17:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id RAA13258; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:17:42 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id RAA26790; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:17:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:17:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Terry Lambert cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE In-Reply-To: <199902021851.LAA06588@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Is there a genuine possibility that KDE could be adopted as default[1] >> desktop? > >I would say "Time for a contest!"... 8-). Be sure to include the >advocacy list in the announcement, Jordan... A contest would require lots of work. My original idea was simply to take something that is good and make it our own. Don't reinvent it. Don't tweak here and there. Just do it as is. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 17:42:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17538 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:42:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17533 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:42:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts1-2.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.34]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA09094; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:42:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 21:40:29 -0400 (AST) Reply-To: arthur@col.auracom.com From: Mike Pulsifer To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Window managers Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-Feb-99 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: >> A snapshot is available in the same directory under the name snap.gif. > > Oh, and that snapshot illustrates the only annoying bug in fvwm2: > every time the window list (FvwmWinList) is resized (which happens > every time you map or unmap a window), it crawls one pixel up and to > the left. Grrrr... > .. agreed a very annoying bug, one which caused me to use the FvwmIconMan instead. > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for Gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 18:54:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28111 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:54:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28105 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:54:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA09440; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:55:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Robert Nordier cc: sue@welearn.com.au (Sue Blake), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Feb 1999 19:53:30 +0200." <199902021753.TAA03724@ceia.nordier.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 18:55:07 -0800 Message-ID: <9436.918010507@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Bleah! Dealing resourcefully with one's own ignorance (aka learning) > is a basic life skill, and people who find the process traumatic, > or who need to thrust the responsibility onto others, need remedial > counselling, not support groups for everything. With all due deference to Sue, I have to chime in behind Robert here and say that what Sue collectively refers to newbies are really two distinct camps of people: 1. Those who are totally ignorant about FreeBSD and probably Unix in general but are interested in learning new things and don't mind getting their hands a little dirty in the process. 2. Those who simply want to be on the bandwagon because they think one scores major `1337n3ss' points by being a Linux or FreeBSD user or they've got a small ISP or porn site they just want to make work. They also know little or no Unix. The difference in dealing with the two camps is like night and day. The #1 camp folks are interested in trying things on their own and only drop by IRC or -questions when they're really stuck and just need a hint. They're also usually polite in asking their questions and have great respect for those with the answers, taking care not to piss them off by leaning too hard on them. Those types are a joy to help since they generally have reasonable questions and also point up places where the docs (which they read first) are lacking. I've committed more than a few doc changes after talking to such folks and some of them are also now developers, having passed through the seven veils and all that to now become productive citizens in their own right. The #2 camp folks are, frankly, just a waste of biomass. They don't want to read docs or exert any more than the most token effort and they're not interested in making their own mistakes since they're also not really interested in learning anything at all, being entirely focused on the "reward" of being able to call oneself a FreeBSD user at school recess the next day or getting that porn site up and generating revenue. From these folks, you here constant comments to the effect of (and I'm not paraphrasing) "Don't tell me to read the docs, JUST ANSWER MY QUESTION!" and "I don't ever read the docs - docs suck! I hate reading all that crap." They're usually anything but polite and, in many cases, are suffering from such a fundamental clue shortage due to having this kind of attitude about life in general that helping them isn't even an option - after about the 4th round, you realize that teaching your grandmother nuclear physics would probably be a lot easier since each and every thing you say is just being met with a stubborn "I don't understand - can't you just do it for me? I'll give you a login." They don't listen and they really don't want to, they just want free handouts for life. I don't think that exerting any effort to help "newbies" in the #2 category is rewarding at all and I'd just as soon those folks learned to play with guns and alcohol so as to take themselves out of the gene pool as rapidly as possible. They also tarnish the reputation of genuine newbies (in the Sue sense) since folks on IRC encounter so many folks in the #2 category that the #1 category folks start catching stray rounds and succumb to friendly fire. If Sue wants the newbie community to succeed in general, she has to make it clear just what segment of the "perceived newbie community" she's really aiming to support and she needs to make sure it's well understood that the #2 folks need to be given the old heave-ho, not help. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 19:16:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00135 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:16:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00121 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:16:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id TAA13782; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:16:40 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id TAA04177; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:16:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:16:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Robert Nordier , Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity In-Reply-To: <9436.918010507@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > 2. Those who simply want to be on the bandwagon because they > think one scores major `1337n3ss' points by being a Linux or > FreeBSD user or they've got a small ISP or porn site they > just want to make work. They also know little or no Unix. I never even considered that these types even existed around BSD-dom. I guess I have been sheltered. What is "1337n3ss"? Something"ness"? Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 19:21:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00635 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:21:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00629 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:21:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id TAA13468 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:21:33 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id TAA04679 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:21:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:20:58 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Socializing the use of "BSD" as a term Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I read the Daemon News article about perceived splintering among the BSD camps. I have once posted usenet asking why we don't join them all together. I eventually learned that there is more than enough room on the net for everyone. I liked the editorial about how "Linux" is just Linux regardless of what CD it came from. I wonder what ye all say about starting a socializing process by which we all refer to FreeBSD, OpenBSD, BSDi, and NetBSD as just "BSD" except where it is needed to differentiate. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 19:22:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00711 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:22:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00705 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:22:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4002.ime.net [209.90.195.12]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id WAA80199; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:21:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990202221853.03cbf820@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:21:21 -0500 To: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: desktop stupidity Cc: Robert Nordier , Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <9436.918010507@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:16 PM 2/2/99 , Jason C. Wells wrote: >On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> 2. Those who simply want to be on the bandwagon because they >> think one scores major `1337n3ss' points by being a Linux or >> FreeBSD user or they've got a small ISP or porn site they >> just want to make work. They also know little or no Unix. > >I never even considered that these types even existed around BSD-dom. I >guess I have been sheltered. > >What is "1337n3ss"? Something"ness"? That'd be leetness, which would be some term that teenage males use to measure the amount of hair on their genetalia. There are BSD fanatics like the Linux ones. A little few and far between since FreeBSD usually doesn't compile the latest and greatest of nukers and spoofers and such.. This is a selling feature (that it doesn't), but also it's a bad thing if you're looking at userbase. Yeah you could say "Well we have the Ritz Carlton of users, only the best", or you can say "We have the most". I guess it's really how badly you want users. People using things for bad application gets more media attention than good it seems. ...Everybody wants to be somebody... --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 19:25:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01043 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:25:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01037 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:25:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06263; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:25:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd006212; Tue Feb 2 20:24:57 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04247; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:24:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902030324.UAA04247@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: DHCP Autoconfig (Was: Lets Endorse KDE) To: jooji@webnology.com (Jasper O'Malley) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:24:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, wghicks@bellsouth.net, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jasper O'Malley" at Feb 2, 99 05:31:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > This would make sense, in that the statistical protection is 256 > > times better than the 169.254.x.x net. > > If I'm not mistaken, the autoconfiguration process checks the address it > picks before it sticks with it. From the IETF Internet Draft on the > subject: > > Once a DHCP Client has determined it must auto-configure an IP > address, it chooses an address. The algorithm for choosing an > address is implementation dependant. The address range to use MUST > be "169.254/16", which is registered with the IANA as the LINKLOCAL > net. Is this a draft from Microsoft, or is it from people who don't violate protocol layering with things like PAP? Do you have a reference to the draft? Also, if it's not MS, it would be just like them to declare that if there isn't a DHCP server, then they aren't a DHCP client, and they will therefore do what they damn well please. 8-(. Makes you hope it's their draft... Thanks, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 19:32:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01828 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:32:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01823 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:32:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03666; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:32:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd003598; Tue Feb 2 20:32:33 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04653; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:32:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902030332.UAA04653@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE To: jcwells@u.washington.edu Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:32:30 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at Feb 2, 99 05:17:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Is there a genuine possibility that KDE could be adopted as default[1] > >> desktop? > > > >I would say "Time for a contest!"... 8-). Be sure to include the > >advocacy list in the announcement, Jordan... > > A contest would require lots of work. Hey, I *like* meritocracy, where whoever does the most work wins. If it's not you, then be happy that someone else is willing to tackle more work than you wanted to get into. That's what's cool about artificial societies (at least the ones without defense postures): they maximize the amount of work that gets done. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 19:54:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05372 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:54:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05353 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:54:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-219.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.219]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA13775 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:54:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA58141 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:53:49 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199902030353.VAA58141@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: desktop stupidity In-reply-to: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" of "Tue, 02 Feb 1999 18:55:07 PST." <9436.918010507@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 21:53:49 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > The #2 camp folks are, frankly, just a waste of biomass. They don't > want to read docs or exert any more than the most token effort and > they're not interested in making their own mistakes since they're also > not really interested in learning anything at all, being entirely > focused on the "reward" of being able to call oneself a FreeBSD user > at school recess the next day or getting that porn site up and > generating revenue. From these folks, you here constant comments to > the effect of (and I'm not paraphrasing) "Don't tell me to read the > docs, JUST ANSWER MY QUESTION!" and "I don't ever read the docs - docs > suck! I hate reading all that crap." Somehow I think the above concept also applies to Pointy-Haired-Bosses who reject FreeBSD and similar "because it lacks commercial support." Not that it really lacks commercial support, or support, its just that they don't want to bother thinking up new excuses to *their* bosses when something happens and there is down time. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 20:13:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08591 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:13:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08578 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:13:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-71-18.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.71.18]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA22252; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:13:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA05521; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:30:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: wghicks@bellsouth.net, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:41:41 +0000 (GMT)" <199902021841.LAA06274@usr05.primenet.com> References: <199902021841.LAA06274@usr05.primenet.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990202233007S.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:30:07 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 73 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:41:41 +0000 (GMT) > > The good new is, with a bit of care and handholding, even a very new > > user can try each of these and decide for themselves. That's the > > magic of the ports subsystem. > > Actually, the magic is ">*PAF!*< You have a command line!". > Not an evil thing. Not difficult to "talk someone through" on the telephone as they are configuring their system for the first time. Even if they've never used a computer before. A GUI is desired by many, expected by most, and _needed_ by none. > It is very easily defensible that people who don't like GUI > based login, etc. (whatever desktop, WM, etc. is picked) can > disable the thing, or even turn off the (default on) install > of the thing. > > The converse is not true. > > At a bare minimum, there should be a "FreeBSD Desktop Express Install" > as one of the installation options. > Sure, but that's a long way from _needing_ KDE, in all of its kmahjongg glory. In fact, this could be done as an application derived from XFree86's XF86Setup program and without needing an additional window manager at all. Then, one doesn't need to worry about getting their fingers into modifications of the XFree86 distribution. Also, I've seen lightweight GUI (non-X) applications that would be good for these initial startup tasks (e.g. AMI's BIOS configurator). > Dare I say that it should include a DHCP client that defaults it to > a random address on the 10 net if it doesn't get a response, and > a GUI TCP settings configurator for when neither of those work... > Still a long way from KDE, but very good ideas. I'm actively working on a toolkit for generating custom and specialized deviants of {Free,Pico}BSD which could be used as a basis for customized installation software, containing KDE or otherwise. The idea is to leverage the ports subsystem, adding a CVS 'fetch' mechanism. This opens up the FreeBSD repository (and others) as sources for derived works within the ports framework. I believe this is a very powerful concept and would appreciate hearing other opinions or ideas. There is an early, but working, proof of concept in ports/9840 Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 20:20:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10015 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:20:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10010 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:20:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id UAA14558; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:20:32 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id UAA06866; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:20:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:19:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: W Gerald Hicks cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: <19990202233007S.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: >A GUI is desired by many, expected by most, and _needed_ by none. Graphics artists? Musicians? Rendering of formatted documents prior to printing out 500 sheets of a screwed up print job on expensive 20lb cotton bond paper? Representing scientific and engineering data in a meaningful way? Finite element analysis? A carpenter doesn't _need_ a power saw, but he can do a lot more work with one than without one. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 20:28:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11266 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:28:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cactus.verinet.com (cactus.verinet.com [204.144.246.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11248 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:28:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from verinet.com ([206.168.245.19]) by cactus.verinet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02866; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:28:03 -0700 Message-ID: <36B7D048.C31F30D7@verinet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 21:27:52 -0700 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: KDE Stability (was Re: Regarding Promoting KDE - Wait, why not GNUstep?) References: <199902030042.SAA09141@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > Kris Kennaway writes: > [...] > > Having said all this, the last time I tried KDE was the 1.0 release, which I > > found to be terribly unstable. I assume from the lack of comments in this > > direction that the code has matured a lot since then and this is no longer a > > problem. If so, I think this is a superb idea and not one which can be > > reasonably objected to. If only I had some free HD space to reinstall KDE, I'd > > jump in and help get things underway. > > I too tried KDE 1.0 and got tired of *.core files laying around. Today > installed the most current port of KDE 1.1 on my 2.2.8 box and putted > around with kmail to see if it could make me happy. > > Kmail reminds me a lot of Eudora. If only message composition/viewing > were in a separate floating window (as I'm using with exmh2, and used > to under the Mac versions of Eudora) then I'd almost be happy. > > Guess my first sin was to run kmail under twm. Kmail spits out way too > many debugging messages, many of which say, "something failed." > Attempts to launch Help generated a core dump, possibly because I > wasn't running kwm. IMHO if KDE was fit for public consumption then it > would bother to find out it lacks some resource before core dumping. > Kmail is not integral to the KDE desktop. It installs from one of the base KDE packages but I think the last time I looked at it was Beta 3 of KDE. I do not suggest we suspend our judgment and accept the entire package as is. If a GUI mail client is necessary, Mozilla meets the basic need; the current version is at least usable and will only improve as the Open Source releases begin to appear. As you know, KDE is comprised of a huge number of packages developed in parallel around a basic framework. The quality varies widely; FreeBSD should recognize the parts that represent it well, and leave the rest to those who make the effort. I believe that enough of the core of KDE is stable, useful and worthy of a FreeBSD desktop. > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 20:31:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12148 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:31:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12141 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:31:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-71-18.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.71.18]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17937; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:31:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA05671; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:48:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: asmodai@wxs.nl, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Desktops and defaults In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:59:17 +0000 (GMT)" <199902022159.OAA15205@usr08.primenet.com> References: <199902022159.OAA15205@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990202234843G.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:48:43 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 14 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Terry Lambert > If that means that the arguments commence until such time as the > default can be modularly removed... good. Something needs to drive > the modularization that isn't happening now. I truly believe some of the answers lie in evolving the ports subsystem beyond its present role. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 21:01:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17982 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:01:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cactus.verinet.com (cactus.verinet.com [204.144.246.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17974 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:01:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from verinet.com ([206.168.245.19]) by cactus.verinet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA10349; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:01:47 -0700 Message-ID: <36B7D831.65EDA0F3@verinet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:01:37 -0700 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >> Is there a genuine possibility that KDE could be adopted as default[1] > >> desktop? > > > >I would say "Time for a contest!"... 8-). Be sure to include the > >advocacy list in the announcement, Jordan... > > A contest would require lots of work. My original idea was simply to take > something that is good and make it our own. Don't reinvent it. Don't tweak > here and there. Just do it as is. It wasn't the work required to conduct a contest that resulted in a poor turnout of entrants; this work had already been done or was at least well on the way. The contest failed for lack of submissions. The work required to tailor a reasonable desktop is considerable. Assuming KDE is selected, tailoring kdm, the desktop, kpanel and the default menu would make a good start. Creating a custom theme is relatively easy assuming familiarity with a text editor and The Gimp. Basic theme information can be found here: http://home.clara.net/george.russell/kdescreenshots.html#howto I would offer that tailoring KDE would not represent 'lots of work' to someone competing to build the default FreeBSD desktop. -- Allen Campbell | Remember parents; don't 'over shake' allenc@verinet.com | your infant. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 21:30:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22750 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:30:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22745 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:30:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-71-18.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.71.18]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA29273; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA05739; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:47:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: jcwells@u.washington.edu Cc: wghicks@bellsouth.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:19:57 -0800 (PST)" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990203004729C.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 00:47:29 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 25 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:19:57 -0800 (PST) > On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > >A GUI is desired by many, expected by most, and _needed_ by none. Sorry :) Our context was the default installation of FreeBSD right? A GUI is not _needed_ there. I stand by that and point to the many successful installations of FreeBSD (and Linux) as obvious examples. Certainly any professional or amateur in the fields you mention will want to get this all rolling quickly. And easily. I don't really care in the end. Disk space is cheap, some of our users would like FreeBSD/KDE and will use it if it's stable. I'm more concerned about that last part right now. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 21:33:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23264 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:33:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cactus.verinet.com (cactus.verinet.com [204.144.246.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23258 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:33:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from verinet.com ([206.168.245.19]) by cactus.verinet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA16783; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:32:49 -0700 Message-ID: <36B7DF77.6EEFAEE2@verinet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:32:39 -0700 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Regarding Promoting KDE - Wait, why not GNUstep? References: <199902021901.MAA07100@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Okay, so KDE might be easy to use for newbies coming from Window > > 95/98/NT because it sort of looks alike, but why add an enviroment that > > slows down the system? > > Because Kirk McKusick has promised that the number of MIPS that > are delivered to the keyboard has remained constant since 1974, > and we intend to keep his promise as processors get faster. It's > now a holy obligation. > > 8-). No coercion required; I only suggest it might make a nice default (not standard, not required, just default) desktop. Alternatives should be available. The key is to have the user presented with something more engaging than a csh prompt after installation. I could basically care less which specific environment it is, but I happen to think KDE is a better start. > Seriously, graphical doesn't imply Microsoft Windows. > > If you have alternatives, and good arguments for those alternatives, > then, why, it's time for a contest! > > > KDE is probably alot farther ahead than the GNUstep team, but with > > more help maybe it will move forward faster. > > I have to say that those KDE guys are maniacs. You really need to > go look at the current status of "KOffice". I have to agree. The amount of work coming out of that project is overwhelming. A KDE user make take for granted that they built there own web browser! :) A bit of NIH there perhaps. I wonder if they have considered welding that NGLayout stuff from Mozzila into the kfm framework... > I'm not positive, but these might be the same nuts who brought us the > ASCII art VGA emulator for Televideo/VT100 terminals... truly the type > of hackers we had in the US back in the early to mid 80's... -- Allen Campbell | Remember parents; do not 'over shake' allenc@verinet.com | your infant. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 21:40:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24434 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:40:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cactus.verinet.com (cactus.verinet.com [204.144.246.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24421 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:40:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from verinet.com ([206.168.245.19]) by cactus.verinet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA18788; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:40:44 -0700 Message-ID: <36B7E152.8C1364FC@verinet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:40:34 -0700 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Desktops and defaults References: <199902021904.MAA07243@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Just a note before arguments get momentum: > > > > Offcourse, whenever possible, anyone responsible for such changes into the > > BSD system, like those we discussed the last 48 hours about KDE and default > > desktops, will make sure that whatever he adds to the install process will > > made modular so that no desktop will get major preference above the other. > > > > Doing otherwise might IMHO violate the principle that is Unix, e.g. > > customisable to the max with nothing forced down ones throat. > > You mean like SMTP is modular? > > Seriously, the way to get momentum is to pull in the same direction, > for better or for worse. Rely on the meritocracy here; If someone 'out there' can put together a decent Blackbox or WindowMaker desktop which a consensus of FreeBSD can live with, more power to 'em. The work should be a peer with anything else offered to the user, KDE or otherwise. The port/packages system is already flexible enough to deal with this. Standards should be suitably high however. -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 21:44:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24820 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:44:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cactus.verinet.com (cactus.verinet.com [204.144.246.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24815 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:44:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from verinet.com ([206.168.245.19]) by cactus.verinet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA19372; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:44:02 -0700 Message-ID: <36B7E217.21071056@verinet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:43:51 -0700 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: W Gerald Hicks CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Desktops and defaults References: <199902022159.OAA15205@usr08.primenet.com> <19990202234843G.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > From: Terry Lambert > > > If that means that the arguments commence until such time as the > > default can be modularly removed... good. Something needs to drive > > the modularization that isn't happening now. > > I truly believe some of the answers lie in evolving the ports subsystem beyond > its present role. Send diffs. :) -- Allen Campbell | I just love saying that, even allenc@verinet.com | when I have no right too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 21:53:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26377 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:53:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26367 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:53:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-71-18.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.71.18]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA20684; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from wghicks (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA05954; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:10:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199902030610.BAA05954@bellsouth.net> To: Allen Campbell cc: W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: On Desktops and defaults In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:43:51 MST." <36B7E217.21071056@verinet.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 01:10:19 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ports/9840 awaits your review and comments. send diffs please ;-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 21:55:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26760 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:55:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cactus.verinet.com (cactus.verinet.com [204.144.246.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26738 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:54:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from verinet.com ([206.168.245.19]) by cactus.verinet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21501; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:54:12 -0700 Message-ID: <36B7E479.5B4AA5E8@verinet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:54:01 -0700 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity References: <9436.918010507@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > Bleah! Dealing resourcefully with one's own ignorance (aka learning) > > is a basic life skill, and people who find the process traumatic, > > or who need to thrust the responsibility onto others, need remedial > > counselling, not support groups for everything. > > With all due deference to Sue, I have to chime in behind Robert here > and say that what Sue collectively refers to newbies are really > two distinct camps of people: > > 1. Those who are totally ignorant about FreeBSD and probably > Unix in general but are interested in learning new things > and don't mind getting their hands a little dirty in the > process. That's how I got here. I can't call myself a grand kernel contributor but I can point to a few converts and a few hundred dollars to Walnut Creek. Given one iota of a chance and FreeBSD will be a server platform where I work. -- Allen Campbell | Remember parents, do not 'over shake' allenc@verinet.com | your infant. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 22:26:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02930 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:26:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02879 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:26:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.145]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA689C; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:25:58 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990202221853.03cbf820@genesis.ispace.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 07:34:38 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: desktop stupidity Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Sue Blake , Robert Nordier , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jason C. Wells" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-Feb-99 Drew Baxter wrote: > At 10:16 PM 2/2/99 , Jason C. Wells wrote: >>What is "1337n3ss"? Something"ness"? > > That'd be leetness, which would be some term that teenage males use to > measure the amount of hair on their genetalia. *choke* *cough* *laugh* *laugh more* (thanks for spilling my tea) > There are BSD fanatics like the Linux ones. A little few and far between > since FreeBSD usually doesn't compile the latest and greatest of nukers > and spoofers and such.. This is a selling feature (that it doesn't), but > also it's a bad thing if you're looking at userbase. Yeah you could say > "Well we have the Ritz Carlton of users, only the best", or you can say > "We have the most". Well, that's why I changed my signature to reflect to the understanding of the system. I am glad to help anyone who is interested in the FreeBSD for what it is. Mentoring, teaching, understanding, learning, it always works both ways... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 01:12:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29392 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:12:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA29383 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:12:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA08476; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:12:22 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA18133; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:12:21 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:12:21 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Socializing the use of "BSD" as a term Message-ID: <19990203101221.H8749@bitbox.follo.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:20:58PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:20:58PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I read the Daemon News article about perceived splintering among the BSD > camps. I have once posted usenet asking why we don't join them all > together. I eventually learned that there is more than enough room on the > net for everyone. > > I liked the editorial about how "Linux" is just Linux regardless of what > CD it came from. I wonder what ye all say about starting a socializing > process by which we all refer to FreeBSD, OpenBSD, BSDi, and NetBSD as > just "BSD" except where it is needed to differentiate. I don't think that will work - too many connotations to "BSD", besides which we do not have the trademark. However, it is common to refer to the collective as "*BSD". Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 01:54:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05197 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:54:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.wan (trltech.demon.co.uk [194.222.7.191]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA05192 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:54:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from trltech.co.uk (rdls.dhcp.sw.wan [192.9.201.75]) by ns.wan (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07242; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:53:56 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Message-ID: <36B81CBC.B3D23B2C@trltech.co.uk> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:54:05 +0000 From: Richard Smith Reply-To: richard@jezebel.demon.co.uk Organization: http://www.trltech.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Window managers References: <86g18oo039.fsf@niobe.ewox.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > A snapshot is available in the same directory under the name snap.gif. > > Oh, and that snapshot illustrates the only annoying bug in fvwm2: > every time the window list (FvwmWinList) is resized (which happens > every time you map or unmap a window), it crawls one pixel up and to > the left. Grrrr... Try: *FvwmWinListNoAnchor As long as the geometry is set to a "++" value, I have found that the default behaviour is the same as the anchored behaviour, that is to grow the list downwards. But it doesn't exhibit that creepy bug :-) I suspect that the bug has been fixed in the latest (beta) version. 2.0.46 is a rather old (beta) version. I'll have a go at porting it as soon as I get some time. richard > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 03:20:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA14324 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:20:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA14319 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:20:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id MAA56175; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:20:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: richard@jezebel.demon.co.uk Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Window managers References: <86g18oo039.fsf@niobe.ewox.org> <36B81CBC.B3D23B2C@trltech.co.uk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Feb 1999 12:20:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: Richard Smith's message of "Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:54:05 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 35 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Richard Smith writes: > Try: > > *FvwmWinListNoAnchor > > As long as the geometry is set to a "++" value, I have found that the > default behaviour is the same as the anchored behaviour, that is to grow > the list downwards. But it doesn't exhibit that creepy bug :-) OK, I'll try that. Right now I have the window list switched off - I use WindowList bound to the middle mouse button instead. BTW, IWBNI one could tell FvwmWinList not to quit when it got a keystroke, like it does now. And IWB even nicer if FvwmWinList would relay keystrokes to the selected window, like tvtwm's window list does (i.e. I don't need to switch to whichever page Netscape is on to quit, I just point at the line that says "Netscape" in the window list and press Alt-Q) > I suspect that the bug has been fixed in the latest (beta) version. > 2.0.46 is a rather old (beta) version. I'll have a go at porting it as > soon as I get some time. Shouldn't be much work, should it? 2.0.46 only has three relatively small patches: root@niobe /usr/ports/x11-wm/fvwm2# wc patches/* 96 308 4768 patches/patch-aa 22 98 671 patches/patch-ab 23 85 672 patches/patch-ac 141 491 6111 total DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 04:57:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27810 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 04:57:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com ([206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA27805 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 04:57:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25683; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:56:55 -0500 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma025677; Wed, 3 Feb 99 07:56:39 -0500 Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA04550; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:56:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) id HAA84775; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:56:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:56:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902031256.HAA84775@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: richard@jezebel.demon.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Window managers In-Reply-To: References: <86g18oo039.fsf@niobe.ewox.org> <36B81CBC.B3D23B2C@trltech.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>> "DES" == Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: DES> Richard Smith writes: >> I suspect that the bug has been fixed in the latest (beta) version. >> 2.0.46 is a rather old (beta) version. I'll have a go at porting it as >> soon as I get some time. DES> Shouldn't be much work, should it? 2.0.46 only has three relatively DES> small patches: Should be much easier. They have autoconf working now, and the last beta that I tried (2.1.6? they are up to 2.1.10, and 2.2.0 is coming up) worked perfectly with -3.0 current a couple of months ago. DES> DES Viren -- Viren R. Shah, {viren @ rstcorp . com} http://www.rstcorp.com/~vshah/ ====== FreeBSD: It's free, it's fast, it's fun. ====== "3 syncs represent the trinity - init, the child and the eternal zombie process." -- Jordan Hubbard To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 05:18:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA02939 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 05:18:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.wan (trltech.demon.co.uk [194.222.7.191]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA02881 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 05:18:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from trltech.co.uk (rdls.dhcp.sw.wan [192.9.201.75]) by ns.wan (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07993; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:17:08 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Message-ID: <36B84C5E.BB814A50@trltech.co.uk> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:17:18 +0000 From: Richard Smith Reply-To: richard@jezebel.demon.co.uk Organization: http://www.trltech.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Window managers References: <86g18oo039.fsf@niobe.ewox.org> <36B81CBC.B3D23B2C@trltech.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > BTW, IWBNI one could tell FvwmWinList not to quit when it got a > keystroke, like it does now. I don't see this. I'm one of those sad 'ClickToFocus' merchants :), but I _did_ try 'FocusFollowsMouse' and still couldn't get it to close. > Shouldn't be much work, should it? 2.0.46 only has three relatively > small patches: I agree. It ports to everything else :) When I get shot of this old Fujitsu drive (which doesn't like FreeBSD _at_ all, any version), I will definitely have a go, unless the maintainer beats me to it :) richard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 05:43:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06370 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 05:43:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06365 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 05:42:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lowell@world.std.com) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA20709; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA23693; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:42:50 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert@primenet.com Subject: Re: DHCP Autoconfig (Was: Lets Endorse KDE) References: <199902030324.UAA04247@usr02.primenet.com> From: Lowell Gilbert Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Date: 03 Feb 1999 08:42:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:24:46 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: Lines: 54 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > If I'm not mistaken, the autoconfiguration process checks the address it > > picks before it sticks with it. From the IETF Internet Draft on the > > subject: > > > > Once a DHCP Client has determined it must auto-configure an IP > > address, it chooses an address. The algorithm for choosing an > > address is implementation dependant. The address range to use MUST > > be "169.254/16", which is registered with the IANA as the LINKLOCAL > > net. > > Is this a draft from Microsoft, or is it from people who don't > violate protocol layering with things like PAP? > > Do you have a reference to the draft? draft-ietf-dhc-autoconfig-03.txt appears to be the current version. > Also, if it's not MS, it would be just like them to declare that if > there isn't a DHCP server, then they aren't a DHCP client, and they > will therefore do what they damn well please. 8-(. Makes you hope > it's their draft... I'm not sure what Terry's objection is here. DHCP *already* expects hosts to check the address they get from the server before using it, through exactly the same mechanism (ARP where appropriate). It's tempting to break layering to implement that address check, but it isn't necessary. The draft was written by a networking staffer at Carnegie Mellon University, and he credits both Microsoft and Apple. I really don't see the relevance of the corporate connection, unless we're going to develop a Microsoft-specific version of NIH -- an affliction I haven't ascribed to Terry Lambert. The idea behind this mechanism is pretty much the same as stateless autoconfiguration in IPv6, although it's a little less useful because you can't assume everyone on your own link uses it. The main reason I can see for worrying about it is that (unlike RFC1918) there are a *lot* of routers that don't know those addresses are supposed to be unroutable. Be well. Lowell Unfortunately, I've fallen completely out of touch with the DHC working group. I had long been advocating that they declare victory and go home (at least with regards to IPv4), and occasionally came back from IETF meeting feeling like "Animal," after the credits of "The Muppet Movie," jumping up and down yelling "Go home! Go home!" When some people started insisting on adding security to DHCP, I decided that adding a jet engine to that particular horse cart was too silly to even pay attention to. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 06:20:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11977 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:20:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA11886 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:19:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id IAA11360; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:20:12 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:20:11 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Terry Lambert cc: wghicks@bellsouth.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DHCP Autoconfig (Was: Lets Endorse KDE) In-Reply-To: <199902030324.UAA04247@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > Is this a draft from Microsoft, or is it from people who don't > violate protocol layering with things like PAP? It's an IETF draft, written by Ryan Troll from Carnegie Mellon. > Do you have a reference to the draft? http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dhc-ipv4-autoconfig-03.txt > Also, if it's not MS, it would be just like them to declare that if > there isn't a DHCP server, then they aren't a DHCP client, and they > will therefore do what they damn well please. 8-(. Well, not really. The draft specifies that the DHCP client MUST [sic] try to lease an address a number of times. If it gets a DHCPNAK, it's not allowed to autoconfigure. The client also must continue to check for a DHCP server every so often. If it gets a DHCPAC "DoNOTAutoConfigure" response at some point, it must drop all existing connections, lose the autoconfigured address, and start looking for a DHCP server again. If it gets a DHCPOFFER, it leases a real address on the network. AFAICT, the Microsoft implementation does this, surprisingly enough. Check out the draft, though. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 06:44:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16061 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:44:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA16045; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:44:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id IAA11800; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:44:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:44:08 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: ONE-MO cc: Bill Fumerola , Cy Schubert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: <36B788EC.CE9A808E@jps.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Redirected to -chat from -ports: On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, ONE-MO wrote: > Personally, I find this to be total BS! I understand the need for anti-spam > methods, but this is pathetic. I agree wholeheartedly. I like the RBL, because it blacklists an entire ISP. But singling out dial-up users because spammers might be running mail servers off them? That's the height of fucking stupidity. I've got a TON of clients who run full fledged mail servers for small offices with static IPs from dialup pools. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 06:52:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17194 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:52:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA17186 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:52:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 1083f6-0001SM-00; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:52:17 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id OAA03506; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:52:07 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08632; Wed, 3 Feb 99 14:52:06 GMT Message-Id: <36B86277.7F438484@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:51:35 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Window managers References: <86g18oo039.fsf@niobe.ewox.org> <36B81CBC.B3D23B2C@trltech.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > BTW, IWBNI one could tell FvwmWinList not to quit when it got a ^^^^^ ??? -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 07:08:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20425 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA20404 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:08:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA185213418; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 04:16:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 04:16:58 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: ONE-MO , Cy Schubert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Jasper O'Malley wrote: > I agree wholeheartedly. I like the RBL, because it blacklists an entire > ISP. But singling out dial-up users because spammers might be running mail > servers off them? That's the height of fucking stupidity. I've got a TON > of clients who run full fledged mail servers for small offices with static > IPs from dialup pools. Amen. If admins want to indulge in this powertrip, so be it. I will back out any change which makes that port do that by default, though. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 07:50:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27600 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:50:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27572 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:50:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id QAA39418; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:50:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Mark Ovens Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Window managers References: <86g18oo039.fsf@niobe.ewox.org> <36B81CBC.B3D23B2C@trltech.co.uk> <36B86277.7F438484@uk.radan.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Feb 1999 16:50:10 +0100 In-Reply-To: Mark Ovens's message of "Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:51:35 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > BTW, IWBNI one could tell FvwmWinList not to quit when it got a > ^^^^^ > ??? *sigh* you guys'll make me wear my fingers down to the bone. IWBNI is short for "it would be nice if". DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 08:04:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00473 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:04:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA00462 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:04:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA01387; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:04:34 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA20113; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:04:34 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:04:34 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Window managers Message-ID: <19990203170433.R8749@bitbox.follo.net> References: <86g18oo039.fsf@niobe.ewox.org> <36B81CBC.B3D23B2C@trltech.co.uk> <36B86277.7F438484@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 04:50:10PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 04:50:10PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Mark Ovens writes: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > BTW, IWBNI one could tell FvwmWinList not to quit when it got a > > ^^^^^ > > ??? > > *sigh* you guys'll make me wear my fingers down to the bone. IWBNI is > short for "it would be nice if". Poor DES. You'll have to get away from your MUD habits. Here, have some IRC: 17:00 #freeb -> elsif (~jake@elsif.office.igs.net) 17:01 #freeb IronPaw> the otherfile exists too.. 17:01 #freeb IronPaw> so try a different dir? 17:01 #freeb CAPSLOCK> Iron: Try "file libc.so.3" and "file /usr/bin/man" 17:01 #freeb Inominate> is there any way to delete a file and the overwrite +> the disk space? ;-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 08:11:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01679 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:11:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com ([206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01656 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:11:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27830 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:11:14 -0500 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma027824; Wed, 3 Feb 99 11:10:26 -0500 Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08371 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:10:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) id LAA90506; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:10:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:10:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902031610.LAA90506@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Book about debugging with gdb? X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone know of any good books dealing with debugging in general, and gdb in particular? I found one book called "Debugging with GDB Version 4.17" by Stallman. Is this any good, or is it just the gdb info pages printed out? Thanks Viren -- Viren R. Shah To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 10:37:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27025 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27015 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:37:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4015.ime.net [209.90.195.25]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id NAA81224; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:37:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990203133304.03dafe40@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:36:16 -0500 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: desktop stupidity Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Sue Blake , Robert Nordier , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jason C. Wells" In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990202221853.03cbf820@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:34 AM 2/3/99 , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >On 03-Feb-99 Drew Baxter wrote: >> At 10:16 PM 2/2/99 , Jason C. Wells wrote: > >>>What is "1337n3ss"? Something"ness"? >> >> That'd be leetness, which would be some term that teenage males use to >> measure the amount of hair on their genetalia. > >*choke* *cough* *laugh* *laugh more* > >(thanks for spilling my tea) > >> There are BSD fanatics like the Linux ones. A little few and far between >> since FreeBSD usually doesn't compile the latest and greatest of nukers >> and spoofers and such.. This is a selling feature (that it doesn't), but >> also it's a bad thing if you're looking at userbase. Yeah you could say >> "Well we have the Ritz Carlton of users, only the best", or you can say >> "We have the most". > >Well, that's why I changed my signature to reflect to the understanding >of the system. I am glad to help anyone who is interested in the FreeBSD for >what it is. > >Mentoring, teaching, understanding, learning, it always works both ways... Well see my thing is, you need to know what you want to do (in some form) before you can apply it. It's like going to college without knowing what you want to major in or what you want to do after. As it was I did the curiosity route.. Well it worked.. But most of the time I try not to 'go too far off the path' unless I have to. As it goes, the word "Free" was very attractive. Things like web servers, ftp servers, etc. all "Free" as well. Well I'm sold. :) Besides if I keep using/abusing Unixes long enough, maybe it'll land me a job drinking Slurpee's and watching a screen 9-5. It's amazing what some people get paid to do that.. Wish my job ended at 5pm every day.. The responsibility is a 24 hour thing. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 12:40:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18477 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:38:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18405 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:37:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.1/8.8.8) id MAA11183; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:36:50 -0800 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda11179; Wed Feb 3 12:36:33 1999 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.2/8.9.1) id MAA11706; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:36:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902032036.MAA11706@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpdb11701; Wed Feb 3 12:35:45 1999 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 Reply-to: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE+CAM X-Sender: cschuber To: Bill Fumerola cc: Cy Schubert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, onemo@jps.net, jooji@webnology.com Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:17:07 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 12:35:45 -0800 From: Cy Schubert Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message , Bi ll Fumerola writes: > On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > vix.com has added a Dialup Users List, similar to the RBL today, see > > http://maps.vix.com/dul/. The patch should include the following line > > after the relays.orbs.org line. > > So now dialup users aren't allowed to exist on the Internet or act as some > sort of server. I think some people think way too highly of themselves and > are playing God. > > I guess connectivity and running daemons can only come to those who have > all the toys. Dialup users are not the issue. Spam is! For example, dialup users who send out legitimate email are not the problem. Spammers who send out emails about the latest sex site, some get rich quick scheme, or from religious zealots seeking a following, IMO are the problem. The dialup users list is a list of dialup IP addresses that have been known to be used by spammers. I too am a dialup user (when not on my employer's business, and my employer seriously frowns on personal use of corporate assets for personal gain). I don't even use my employer's network for personal email. My employer may opt to sniff their network may even read personal email to friends and business associates. IMO the contents of my personal emails are none of their business, so I need to subscribe to an ISP, just like you do. My sendmail.cf defines my ISP's SMTP server as a smart relay. Therefore if my ISP's dial-up ports were to be listed in the DUL, it wouldn't matter. Also, clients of ISP's should use their ISP's SMTP relay to let it handle mail delivery just in case the remote SMTP server you are sending mail to is temporarily down. The dial-up user doesn't need to worry about mail delivery, the ISP's infrastructure will take care of it. That's why I pay the ISP I subscribe to the bucks, to take care of details I shouldn't need to worry about. Isn't this what the DUL is all about anyway? The ISP I use has not been listed as a site that forward's spam. Spammers have have used his site in the past, my ISP has received complaints and has long since remedied the situation. Not only did the spammers P.O. others on the Net, the load on one of his SMTP servers, caused by spammers using the open relay, brought it to its knees. As a result he (an NT person) and I spent a day upgrading it from 2.1.6 to 2.2.7 and implementing appropriate anti-spam measures (and an IPFW firewall just for good measure). His approach to network abuse is to have abusive customers find another ISP here in town. This policy has not affected his business, as his business has grown to become the biggest ISP here in Victoria, BC, over the past four years. I too have set up my main server at home as a relay. Using masquerading or a Reply-to header I can have replies sent back to the mailbox at my ISP. Also, dorkslayers.com had to move from Vancouver to a site in the States because the local telephone company believed it was an abuse of their network to provide an anti-spam database and to periodically test for open relays. I've received a bunch of emails from people who disagree with this policy. We should either replace dorkslayers in the port with orbs or remove the port completely, as dorkslayers doesn't exist anymore. My request has touched a sensitive nerve among some people. The politically correct solution might be to entirely remove the port from the ports collection, however since I'm not so politically correct, I'm willing to live with the port with only RBL (vix.com and orbs.org) and without DUL. If, however, the dorkslayers.com is not changed to orbs.org, it is useless and the port should be removed from the ports collection. As a footnote to this, I have received threats of civil action from ISP's and spammers who have used the sites I manage as relays and who have subsequently discovered that their attempts to rely now fail. So I am as emotionally motivated disallow spammers relay, just as many are emotionally charged to believe otherwise. BTW. When I receive junk mail at my home I either return it to sender or I throw it in the recycling bin. Stating that I need to receive spam means that I also have a moral obligation to read all of the junk mail that comes to my home. That's ridicules. Another analogy is that if I am obligated to receive spam and am obligated to read it, as many spammers believe that I should, then I should not surf the channels or go to the refrigerator when advertisements are shown on TV during my favorite TV shows, as I am obligated to watch the ads since I was watching the feature presentation. In our office of 10 people (we're all sysadmins for various clients so all of us have root on our internal mail relay), four of them wish to receive spam while six of us do not wish so. The internal relay only relays mail the 10 people in our office. It allows spam through to the four people who wish to receive spam and it does not relay spam to the six of us who have opted not to receive any spam. I don't believe that that people not within our office should be using our SMTP relay to relay email except for email destined for any of the 10 people in our office. If a client of ours wishes to block spam on a machine that our team manages for the client, it is the client's option and the client's decision. If the client doesn't wish to do so, that too is their option. We can only make recommendations to a client and the client has the final say. > > - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - > - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - > > > Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Open Systems Group Internet: Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca ITSD Cy.Schubert@gems8.gov.bc.ca Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 12:50:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20320 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:50:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20287 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:50:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA007503942; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:59:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:59:02 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: <199902032036.MAA11706@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Cy Schubert wrote: > Dialup users are not the issue. Spam is! For example, dialup > users who send out legitimate email are not the problem. Spammers > who send out emails about the latest sex site, some get rich quick > scheme, or from religious zealots seeking a following, IMO are the > problem. [rest of long useless rant deleted, we all know why spam is bad.] I don't like spam either, but not including dialup users in with the main list is silly. Dialup users aren't the problem, spammers are, lets not forget that. As far as me using my ISPs mail server, it's my right to handle my mail how I want to. My IP space as a dialup user may be small and low on bandwidth, but singling out large blocks of addresses just because one person on that ISP sent spam is silly. Half the spam I receive comes from non-North American sites, should I just blackhole the rest of the world? Deal with specific users/ISPs, don't single out users, that's why there is contact info in Internic/RIPE/APnic/ARIN records. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 13:08:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22897 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:08:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22889 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:08:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (root@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id NAA15406 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:08:45 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id NAA29694 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:08:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:08:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Port that installs fvwm-2.1.10 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Somebody was talking about FvwmWinlist and such. I have a port that installs fvwm-2.1.10. I am running it right now. This version of fvwm2 includes revamped modules including a purported slicker WinList that Eivind was commenting on. I haven't had time to submint my port yet. If somebody wants to try it out and commit it I would be glad to send it to you in a tarball. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 13:26:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA25583 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:26:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25573 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:26:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23007; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:26:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd022908; Wed Feb 3 14:26:26 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00263; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:26:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902032126.OAA00263@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of To: jooji@webnology.com (Jasper O'Malley) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:26:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: onemo@jps.net, billf@chc-chimes.com, cschuber@uumail.gov.bc.ca, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jasper O'Malley" at Feb 3, 99 08:44:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Personally, I find this to be total BS! I understand the need for anti-spam > > methods, but this is pathetic. > > I agree wholeheartedly. I like the RBL, because it blacklists an entire > ISP. But singling out dial-up users because spammers might be running mail > servers off them? That's the height of fucking stupidity. I've got a TON > of clients who run full fledged mail servers for small offices with static > IPs from dialup pools. Then AOL will not accept mail from them, because the reverse name doesn't match the forward name. The correct fix for this is to use BIND 8 and DDNS to update the DNS contents from the radiusd. Unlike DDNS used by the customer's machine, you can trust your own radiusd. This also works well for assigning dynamic rather than static IP's. Note that if you buy your POP's from places like PSINet, which doesn't reverse the IP to you, then AOL will reject them completely based on the IP reverse matching a PSINet dialup. Basically, this is a consequence of PSINet not enforcing their AUP (Acceptable Use Policy). For ISP's that have customers running on these things, and for which they enforce their own AUP, and for which the customers can easily be vouchsafed by the ISP, the ISP must run a mail server which the their clients can designate as a "smarter host". Arguably, the client machine shouldn't have to use the smarter host all the time, but AOL returns a 5xx error instead of a 4xx error, so a error message relay queuing policy would be totally ineffective. EarthLink is one ISP that has the PSINet POP problem with mail that their customers send to AOL; EarthLink has to run a relay for these customers (or decide to buy their POP's from some place else). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 13:36:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27079 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:36:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27071 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:35:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA18255; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:35:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:35:56 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group cc: Bill Fumerola , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, onemo@jps.net Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: <199902032036.MAA11706@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Cy Schubert wrote: > The dialup users list is a list of dialup IP addresses that have > been known to be used by spammers. No, it's not. It's a growing list of every dialup pool on the Internet. The manifesto on their web page mentions nothing about a spammer's use of a netblock as criteria for adding the block. There's no remedy for DUL victims as there is for RBL offenders. If you're dialup, you're forced to relay through an "authorized" mail server. Most people do this anywa--*I* do this anyway--being forced to do so irks the shit out of me. > As a footnote to this, I have received threats of civil action from > ISP's and spammers who have used the sites I manage as relays and > who have subsequently discovered that their attempts to rely now > fail. So I am as emotionally motivated disallow spammers relay, > just as many are emotionally charged to believe otherwise. We're not talking about relaying. We're talking about end to end connectivity. DUL forces a lot of people to relay when they otherwise would not. It alsop takes things to the next level: it *forces* you to cooperate with MAPS. With the RBL, if you kept your nose clean, turned off relaying, and nailed your customers when they spammed, you were fine. Here, the DUL maintainers will blacklist any netblock with a dialup in it, leaving it up to you to contact them with the addresses of non-dialups so they can remove them from the list. Let me make something crystal clear: I fucking *despise* spam. I actively hunt down spammers and get their accounts cancelled. But DUL doesn't target spammers or careless admins and their ISPs. It just paints all dialup users with the same brush. As an aside, I've just now received an e-mail from Paul Vixie, in response to an earlier e-mail I sent to the MAPS team protesting the idea behind the DUL. Unfortunately, the gist of what he's sent me is that although he regrets it, he believes it's necessary to assume all dialup users are spammers. Of course, with Paul's support behind this, I'm pretty much just pissing into the wind, but that's never stopped me before :) Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 13:40:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27920 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:40:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27874 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:40:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA18335; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:40:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:40:13 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Terry Lambert cc: onemo@jps.net, billf@chc-chimes.com, cschuber@uumail.gov.bc.ca, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of In-Reply-To: <199902032126.OAA00263@usr04.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > Then AOL will not accept mail from them, because the reverse name > doesn't match the forward name. How do you figure? If I've got dialup1.me.com at 192.168.2.1, dialup2.me.com at 192.168.2.2, and mail.customer.com at 192.168.2.3, why wouldn't forward and reverse DNS match? Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 13:49:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29215 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:49:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29209 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:49:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id WAA15284 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:49:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m1089R8-000WyYC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:02:14 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: desktop stupidity Date: 3 Feb 1999 22:02:12 +0100 Message-ID: <79adgk$b72$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > Given the choice of twm or KDE, which is less hostile? Twm, of course. Some time ago somebody persuaded me to start up KDE. I created files and directories in my home directory without ever asking me, and when it came up there were all those buttons, and... GUIish things... you could click on without any idea what that would cause. Gave me the creeps. I will probably take a closer look at KDE in the future, especially since it is becoming the de-facto standard Linux desktop in this part of the world, but I'll want to read a large amount of documentation before- hand. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de carpe librum: books 'n' reviews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 13:50:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29304 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:50:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29234 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:49:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id WAA15292 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:49:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m1089kD-000WyYC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:21:57 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Socializing the use of "BSD" as a term Date: 3 Feb 1999 22:21:54 +0100 Message-ID: <79aeli$b8k$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article , Jason C. Wells wrote: > I liked the editorial about how "Linux" is just Linux regardless of what > CD it came from. I wonder what ye all say about starting a socializing > process by which we all refer to FreeBSD, OpenBSD, BSDi, and NetBSD as > just "BSD" except where it is needed to differentiate. I've been slowly realizing this for the last couple of months. From a "marketing" perspective, it's a crucial point. It's nice to see that others have had the same thought and that the idea is spreading. Personally, I've already made it a habit to just talk about "BSD" unless further distinction is really required. I'm happy to report that some of the surrounding Linux people have now pegged me as a "BSD user", rather than a "mostly FreeBSD, occasionally OpenBSD user". -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de carpe librum: books 'n' reviews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 13:50:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29362 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:50:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29331 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:50:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id WAA15442 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:50:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m1089q7-000WyYC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:28:03 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Socializing the use of "BSD" as a term Date: 3 Feb 1999 22:28:00 +0100 Message-ID: <79af10$b9o$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <19990203101221.H8749@bitbox.follo.net> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund wrote: > > I wonder what ye all say about starting a socializing process by > > which we all refer to FreeBSD, OpenBSD, BSDi, and NetBSD as just > > "BSD" except where it is needed to differentiate. > > I don't think that will work - too many connotations to "BSD", What's wrong with these? Actually, what connotations did you have in mind? > besides which we do not have the trademark. That concerns official documents. > However, it is common to refer to the collective as "*BSD". Which reinforces the impression that BSD is factionalized. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de carpe librum: books 'n' reviews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 13:50:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29426 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:50:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29417 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:50:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA028617540; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:59:00 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:58:59 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, onemo@jps.net Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Jasper O'Malley wrote: > As an aside, I've just now received an e-mail from Paul Vixie, in response > to an earlier e-mail I sent to the MAPS team protesting the idea behind > the DUL. Unfortunately, the gist of what he's sent me is that although he > regrets it, he believes it's necessary to assume all dialup users are > spammers. His statement sickens me. Bandwidth Prejudice -- On the next Jerry Springer. > Of course, with Paul's support behind this, I'm pretty much just pissing > into the wind, but that's never stopped me before :) Every little bit helps. This is a gross misuse of an otherwise effective tool. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 13:54:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29887 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:54:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA29877 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:54:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 15739 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Feb 1999 21:52:55 -0000 Date: 3 Feb 1999 13:52:55 -0800 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:52:55 -0800 From: Unfurl To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Message-ID: <19990203135254.A13235@dub.net> References: <19990203133655.C16919@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990203133655.C16919@mooseriver.com>; from Josef Grosch on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 01:36:55PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 01:36:55PM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:32:10AM -0800, Nicole Harrington wrote: > I agree. A nice box product looks like a "legitimate" product. At one point > several years ago Walnut Creek was shipping just such a package for > FreeBSD. I found several Barnes & Nobles in Chicago carrying this. Can't > say what happened to it. Walnut Creek should bring back the box package to > augment their product line. It should look like, (digging in my box of > microsludge software), Eudora Pro. Lets see.... we have a "quick start > guide", an eudora pro cdrom, a technical support information paper with all > sorts of important numbers (I secretly think they are just random numbers), > an advertisement for cvideo-mail, "Attach full motion video and sound to > your e-mail" ugh!, a manul, and a registration card. I have never seen this package but that sounds liek a great idea. I think that because many of the Linux distros have this kind of packaging they are more able to sell products in place like B&n or Borders. > Now, I can hear Jordan chanting his mantra, "great, send me the diffs", but > we have all this stuff. It would just take a marketing person a few weeks to > whip this into a nice spiffy product. The only stumbling block is our old > problem, the manual. We could package Greg Leheys' book without the freaking > man pages. No cut on Greg, but this would be quite welcome. I like and use the front half of my book. I never use and frequently curse the dead weight of the man pages. I can see their value to the first time installer but I would rather have a slimmer, cheaper book made up of just the first half. > In reality we do need another FreeBSD book. Greg can't be > carrying the whole load for us. > > > My $0.02 My $0.015 -Bill -- unfurl@dub.net - This is a munition. Fight Back! #!/bin/perl -sp0777i Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04749 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:21:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04739 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:21:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12260; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:21:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd012200; Wed Feb 3 15:21:46 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07118; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:21:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902032221.PAA07118@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Window managers To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:21:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: marko@uk.radan.com, des@flood.ping.uio.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Feb 3, 99 04:50:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > BTW, IWBNI one could tell FvwmWinList not to quit when it got a > > ^^^^^ > > ??? > > *sigh* you guys'll make me wear my fingers down to the bone. IWBNI is > short for "it would be nice if". WOCTTOIR... ("Well Of Course, That's Totally Obvious In Retrospect") Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 14:26:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05449 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:26:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05391 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:25:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12983; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:39:41 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:39:41 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Allen Campbell Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Message-ID: <19990203213941.A25354@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <36B7D831.65EDA0F3@verinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36B7D831.65EDA0F3@verinet.com>; from Allen Campbell on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 10:01:37PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 10:01:37PM -0700, Allen Campbell wrote: > It wasn't the work required to conduct a contest that resulted in a poor > turnout of entrants; this work had already been done or was at least > well on the way. The contest failed for lack of submissions. Just as a datapoint -- I looked at the contest when it started, because I quite like my X desktop, and so do several people who've taken it from me and adapted it for themselves. I didn't submit it for the contest because it uses several programs (in the ports tree) that are quite important to it. For example, procmail splits mail in to different folders, xbuffer displays the mail in those folders, mutt runs on the mail in the folders as necessary -- at least one of those programs wasn't in the approved list, and I have other examples as well. The effort to try and pull those features out and still have a (to me) useful desktop outweighed the amount of time I could dedicate to putting it together. N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 14:39:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07799 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:39:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasquatch.dannyland.org (sasquatch.dannyland.org [207.229.158.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA07794 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:39:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 18155 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Feb 1999 22:40:25 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:40:25 -0600 From: dannyman To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Socializing the use of "BSD" as a term Message-ID: <19990203164025.K16810@dannyland.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:20:58PM -0800 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:20:58PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I liked the editorial about how "Linux" is just Linux regardless of what > CD it came from. I wonder what ye all say about starting a socializing > process by which we all refer to FreeBSD, OpenBSD, BSDi, and NetBSD as > just "BSD" except where it is needed to differentiate. All Linux distributions share the Linux kernel. BSD distributions have nothing more than a common heritage and a common suffic in their names, and as has been pointed out, BSD doesn't roll off the tongue as well as Linux. While I agree with the sentiment, I believe you would be preaching a lost cause. -danny -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 14:44:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08280 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:41:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasquatch.dannyland.org (sasquatch.dannyland.org [207.229.158.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA08260 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:41:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@sasquatch.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 18187 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Feb 1999 22:41:57 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:41:57 -0600 From: dannyman To: Terry Lambert Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Message-ID: <19990203164157.L16810@dannyland.org> References: <199902030332.UAA04653@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <199902030332.UAA04653@usr02.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 03:32:30AM +0000 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 03:32:30AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Hey, I *like* meritocracy, where whoever does the most work wins. Hey, I thought it was whoever did the best work, wins. :) -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 14:48:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09048 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:48:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09034 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:48:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (ppp-111-27.mtl.aei.ca [207.107.111.27]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24419; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:47:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36B8D1DF.DBBDEFB7@aei.ca> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:46:55 -0500 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: fr, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allen Campbell CC: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Desktops and defaults References: <199902021904.MAA07243@usr05.primenet.com> <36B7E152.8C1364FC@verinet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Allen Campbell wrote: > > Rely on the meritocracy here; If someone 'out there' can put together a > decent Blackbox or WindowMaker desktop which a consensus of FreeBSD can > live with, more power to 'em. The work should be a peer with anything > else offered to the user, KDE or otherwise. The port/packages system is > already flexible enough to deal with this. Standards should be suitably > high however. > > -- > Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the > allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. > I don't really see why you need to put app by default. The user simply need to try the port collection if he need something. Anyway, he _will_ need an application wich is not in your default window manager, so he will try to use the ports. I think the only thing FreeBSD need is a nice window manager installed by default. "Do you want to install Blackbox, the default FreeBSD window manager?" Blackbox would be the better choice. It's incredibly fast, stable, nice etc.. http://www.cnet.com/Content/Reviews/Compare/AltOS/ss04.html "Out of the box, FreeBSD isn't nearly as pretty as Red Hat Linux." ... A default window manager, and a doc on how to use the port collection that pop-up after the first start of Xwindow would be nice to. "Welcome to FreeBSD. You are currently using X-Window and Blackbox. If you need applications, use the Port Collections, a ..." The first time I installed freebsd, I did not want it to install me any app that I did not need. For a blackbox screenshot: http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/freebsd/graphic/blackbox.jpg Blackbox home page. http://blackbox.wiw.org/ Thank You -- [Malartre][malartre@aei.ca][French piss me off - Cartman, South Park] [The FreeBSD User Guide][http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/freebsd/] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 15:15:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13227 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13221 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:15:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11901; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:15:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd011750; Wed Feb 3 16:15:05 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA09330; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:14:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902032314.QAA09330@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of To: jooji@webnology.com (Jasper O'Malley) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:14:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, onemo@jps.net, billf@chc-chimes.com, cschuber@uumail.gov.bc.ca, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jasper O'Malley" at Feb 3, 99 03:40:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Then AOL will not accept mail from them, because the reverse name > > doesn't match the forward name. > > How do you figure? If I've got dialup1.me.com at 192.168.2.1, > dialup2.me.com at 192.168.2.2, and mail.customer.com at 192.168.2.3, why > wouldn't forward and reverse DNS match? Here's how AOL works: CONNECT peer = gethostbyaddr( getpeername()) peer = dialup1.me.com HELO bob.com helo = bob.com if helo != peer 525 No SPAM for you MAIL FROM: from_user = friend from_domain = public.com if !substring( from_domain, peer) 525 No SPAM for you my_name = gethostname() canon_name = gethostbyname( my_name) if from_domain != canon_name if to_domain != canon_name 525 No RELAY for you This is basically how everyone will work, sooner or later, barring use of identity certificates that can be DNS validated and are signed by an authority contractually bound to not sign them for SPAM'mers (the real be-all, end-all soloution for SPAM). If you you *statically* assign IP's, *AND* you correctly set up the reverse mapping to point to the domain name, then it will make it through the gauntlet. If, however, you assign dynamic IP's and you either *don't* use DDNS to set up a correct reverse record matching the domain, or you buy from a POP provider (like PSINet) such that you *can't* use DDNS to set up a correct reverse record matching the domain, then you are screwed. The way to unscrew yourself is to act as a relay for your customers with dialup accounts for which the reverse mapping doesn't match, and to enforce an AUP such that if one of your customer's abuses the relay, they lose access (otherwise, you are a SPAM-friendly ISP and your mail relay server will be RBL'ed). Basically all ISP's outgrow their allocable static IP address space, eventually, if they are successful in growing over time, and so they all get to the point where they have to assign dynamic IP's instead of giving out static IP's. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 15:17:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13693 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:17:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13670 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:17:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id JAA27779; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:47:17 +1030 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA13759; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:47:16 +1030 Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:47:15 +1030 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity In-Reply-To: <79adgk$b72$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 Feb 1999, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > Given the choice of twm or KDE, which is less hostile? > > Twm, of course. You took the above out of context and are using a different definition of 'hostile' than I was. Twm may not be hostile to your home directory, but it's much more hostile to people who don't know how to use UNIX like a pro. "Ooh, a weird clock and a window with # in it. Hrm, what the heck do I do now? *tries typing various futile things*. Damn FreeBSD." Kris ----- (ASP) Microsoft Corporation (MSFT) announced today that the release of its productivity suite, Office 2000, will be delayed until the first quarter of 1901. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 15:53:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20451 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:53:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20432; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:53:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA02398; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:23:42 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id KAA63546; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:23:40 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:23:40 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Eivind Eklund Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Socializing the use of "BSD" as a term Message-ID: <19990204102339.M1179@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990203101221.H8749@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990203101221.H8749@bitbox.follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 10:12:21AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 10:12:21 +0100, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Tue, Feb 02, 1999 at 07:20:58PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: >> I read the Daemon News article about perceived splintering among the BSD >> camps. I have once posted usenet asking why we don't join them all >> together. I eventually learned that there is more than enough room on the >> net for everyone. >> >> I liked the editorial about how "Linux" is just Linux regardless of what >> CD it came from. I wonder what ye all say about starting a socializing >> process by which we all refer to FreeBSD, OpenBSD, BSDi, and NetBSD as >> just "BSD" except where it is needed to differentiate. > > I don't think that will work - too many connotations to "BSD", besides > which we do not have the trademark. However, it is common to refer to > the collective as "*BSD". I called it BSD in my article in SunWorld (http://www.sunworld.com/swol-01-1999/swol-01-bsd.html). Nobody commented on it being inappropriate. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 15:58:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21710 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:58:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21648 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:58:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01513; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:58:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd001432; Wed Feb 3 16:58:02 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA10889; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:58:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902032358.QAA10889@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com To: billf@chc-chimes.com (Bill Fumerola) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:57:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jooji@webnology.com, Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, onemo@jps.net In-Reply-To: from "Bill Fumerola" at Feb 3, 99 10:58:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > As an aside, I've just now received an e-mail from Paul Vixie, in response > > to an earlier e-mail I sent to the MAPS team protesting the idea behind > > the DUL. Unfortunately, the gist of what he's sent me is that although he > > regrets it, he believes it's necessary to assume all dialup users are > > spammers. > > His statement sickens me. Bandwidth Prejudice -- On the next Jerry > Springer. Not at all. ISP's that provide dynamic IP instead of static IP just have to provide a relay server with a static IP for their customers. The only "prejudice" here is against non-accountable IP addresses. Really, Paul needs to not be running RBL, per se, but instead signing weekly certificates for mail servers that aren't in the database. If someone SPAMs, then they don't get their certificate signed. Alternately, you could put up your own server and answer dialup IP queries yourself, and forward all others to Paul's server. Of course, I'd never point any of my machines at your server, given that youd let in the UUNET and PSINet cretins who run open relays and refuse to do anything about them... I doubt you'd get many takers, in fact. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 16:08:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25214 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:08:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25153 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:08:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA02471; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:38:05 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id KAA63661; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:37:52 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:37:52 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Viren R. Shah" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book about debugging with gdb? Message-ID: <19990204103752.P1179@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199902031610.LAA90506@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199902031610.LAA90506@jabberwock.rstcorp.com>; from Viren R. Shah on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:10:26AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 11:10:26 -0500, Viren R. Shah wrote: > > Anyone know of any good books dealing with debugging in general, and > gdb in particular? I'm supposed to be writing one, but progress has crawled to a halt. > I found one book called "Debugging with GDB Version 4.17" by > Stallman. Is this any good, or is it just the gdb info pages printed > out? I don't know this one. Is it available online? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 16:14:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26598 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:14:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26542 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:14:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08203; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:13:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd008140; Wed Feb 3 17:13:10 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA11787; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:13:03 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902040013.RAA11787@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of To: jooji@webnology.com (Jasper O'Malley) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:13:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca, billf@chc-chimes.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, onemo@jps.net In-Reply-To: from "Jasper O'Malley" at Feb 3, 99 03:35:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No, it's not. It's a growing list of every dialup pool on the Internet. > The manifesto on their web page mentions nothing about a spammer's use of > a netblock as criteria for adding the block. There's no remedy for DUL > victims as there is for RBL offenders. If you're dialup, you're forced to > relay through an "authorized" mail server. Most people do this anywa--*I* > do this anyway--being forced to do so irks the shit out of me. It probably irks the shit out of "legitimate SPAM ``providers''", too. > We're not talking about relaying. We're talking about end to end > connectivity. Exactly. Closing *any* SMTP relay damages the ability to source route email. But that's the world we currently live in. > DUL forces a lot of people to relay when they otherwise would not. Yes, it does. Eventually, it will force deployment of IPv6, or deployment of certificate based non-SPAM'mer identification, both of which are a much better solution that an RBL or ORBS based system. > It alsop takes things to the next level: it *forces* you to > cooperate with MAPS. Whis is pretty much why they are doing it. They are diking the ability to SPAM out of the Internet. > Let me make something crystal clear: I fucking *despise* spam. I actively > hunt down spammers and get their accounts cancelled. But DUL doesn't > target spammers or careless admins and their ISPs. It just paints > all dialup users with the same brush. Apparently, my provider just got tarred with the ORBS brush in the last hour or so, maybe in retaliation for my participation in this conversation, for all I know. Oh well. I reported it to Primenet's powers-that-be, and they'll take care of it. Meanwhile, I won't be able to send useful information to idiots, which is no great loss for me, and certainly of no value to the idiots, who wouldn't know what to do with it, anyway. See, there *is* parity in the universe... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 17:09:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03833 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:09:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03824; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:09:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15905; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:09:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:09:20 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199902040109.RAA15905@kithrup.com> To: ports@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: References: <36B788EC.CE9A808E@jps.net> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >I agree wholeheartedly. I like the RBL, because it blacklists an entire >ISP. But singling out dial-up users because spammers might be running mail >servers off them? That's the height of fucking stupidity. I've got a TON >of clients who run full fledged mail servers for small offices with static >IPs from dialup pools. Not "might be." *ARE*. A growing number of ISPs are preventing, at the firewall level, their dial-up customers from connecting to SMTP (and others, for that matter) ports. This is a good thing, since about 90% of the spam I get these days is from a dial-up customer who bypassed his ISP's mail server (since doing so would have resulted in their theft being noticed much earlier). The DUL is the result of people trying to get dialups added to the RBL, most notably UUNET's. That wasn't going to happen, since the RBL is used too often as a BGP feed, and placing a group of dialup addresses on that would result in not being able to access any portion of the internet. It is also possible to get a netblock removed from the DUL, although it is somewhat harder than it is with the RBL (so I'm told). I have absolutely no sympathy for you, or anyone else affected by this -- all it means is you have to use your ISP's mail relay, or find someone willing to relay for you. You don't like it, tough -- but you were going to lose it anyway, as more and more ISPs go with firewalls and redirectors. If you want to run a server, then you should not be using a dialup pool; if your ISP doesn't have anything but that, then you'll have to get your ISP to talk to the DUL folks, if they end up on it. (And a netblock will only end up on the DUL after spam is sent from it -- it's not pre-emptive.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 17:31:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06786 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:31:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06771 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:31:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA02820; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:01:32 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id MAA64174; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:01:29 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:01:29 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Unfurl Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Message-ID: <19990204120129.Y1179@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990203133655.C16919@mooseriver.com> <19990203135254.A13235@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990203135254.A13235@dub.net>; from Unfurl on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 01:52:55PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 13:52:55 -0800, Unfurl wrote: > On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 01:36:55PM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:32:10AM -0800, Nicole Harrington wrote: >> I agree. A nice box product looks like a "legitimate" product. At one point >> several years ago Walnut Creek was shipping just such a package for >> FreeBSD. I found several Barnes & Nobles in Chicago carrying this. Can't >> say what happened to it. Walnut Creek should bring back the box package to >> augment their product line. It should look like, (digging in my box of >> microsludge software), Eudora Pro. Lets see.... we have a "quick start >> guide", an eudora pro cdrom, a technical support information paper with all >> sorts of important numbers (I secretly think they are just random numbers), >> an advertisement for cvideo-mail, "Attach full motion video and sound to >> your e-mail" ugh!, a manul, and a registration card. > > I have never seen this package but that sounds liek a great idea. I > think that because many of the Linux distros have this kind of packaging > they are more able to sell products in place like B&n or Borders. I don't really see why this should be so, at least if the book is included. I've seen the things on sale at Borders, and they're mainly books. >> Now, I can hear Jordan chanting his mantra, "great, send me the diffs", but >> we have all this stuff. It would just take a marketing person a few weeks to >> whip this into a nice spiffy product. The only stumbling block is our old >> problem, the manual. We could package Greg Leheys' book without the freaking >> man pages. > > No cut on Greg, but this would be quite welcome. OK, one more time: The man pages are going away. Amusingly, they came in in the first edition (which was really the second edition) in order to make the box feel heavier :-) >> In reality we do need another FreeBSD book. Greg can't be >> carrying the whole load for us. Agreed. We need several books. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 17:45:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08795 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:45:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08782 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA23225; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:45:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:45:29 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Terry Lambert cc: Bill Fumerola , Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, onemo@jps.net Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: <199902032358.QAA10889@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > Not at all. ISP's that provide dynamic IP instead of static IP > just have to provide a relay server with a static IP for their > customers. What prevents someone from spamming through the relay then? What does the DUL provide, then, that the RBL cannot? > The only "prejudice" here is against non-accountable IP addresses. They're non-accountable whether or not the DUL exists. Whether or not you spam directly from a dialup or through a relay, it's equally easy (or difficult) to catch you. > Really, Paul needs to not be running RBL, per se, but instead signing > weekly certificates for mail servers that aren't in the database. If > someone SPAMs, then they don't get their certificate signed. An opt-in for every mail server on the Internet? Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 17:47:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09044 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:47:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09038 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:47:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA23278; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:47:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:47:38 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Terry Lambert cc: Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca, billf@chc-chimes.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, onemo@jps.net Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of In-Reply-To: <199902040013.RAA11787@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > It probably irks the shit out of "legitimate SPAM ``providers''", > too. Probably, but I'm not terribly concerned about them. > Apparently, my provider just got tarred with the ORBS brush in the > last hour or so, maybe in retaliation for my participation in this > conversation, for all I know. Call me paranoid, but that's it scenarios like that that bother me. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 17:49:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09166 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:49:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09153; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:49:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16839; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:49:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd016791; Wed Feb 3 18:48:59 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA14298; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:48:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902040148.SAA14298@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 01:48:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: ports@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902040109.RAA15905@kithrup.com> from "Sean Eric Fagan" at Feb 3, 99 05:09:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > A growing number of ISPs are preventing, at the firewall level, their dial-up > customers from connecting to SMTP (and others, for that matter) ports. This > is a good thing, since about 90% of the spam I get these days is from a > dial-up customer who bypassed his ISP's mail server (since doing so would have > resulted in their theft being noticed much earlier). > > The DUL is the result of people trying to get dialups added to the RBL, most > notably UUNET's. That wasn't going to happen, since the RBL is used too often > as a BGP feed, and placing a group of dialup addresses on that would result in > not being able to access any portion of the internet. > > It is also possible to get a netblock removed from the DUL, although it is > somewhat harder than it is with the RBL (so I'm told). > > I have absolutely no sympathy for you, or anyone else affected by this -- all > it means is you have to use your ISP's mail relay, or find someone willing to > relay for you. You don't like it, tough -- but you were going to lose it > anyway, as more and more ISPs go with firewalls and redirectors. If you want > to run a server, then you should not be using a dialup pool; if your ISP > doesn't have anything but that, then you'll have to get your ISP to talk to > the DUL folks, if they end up on it. (And a netblock will only end up on the > DUL after spam is sent from it -- it's not pre-emptive.) Actually, ORBS is preventing all multilevel relay. If an ISP is willing to relay from a dialup that belongs to the ISP, then they go onto the ORBS list (Primenet just made the list today, in fact). The problem with this is that there are legitimate reasons for multilevel relay, starting with bastion hosts acting as corporate mail relays for interior hosts. Also tarred with the same brush is any "thin server" or "appliance" type device that uses dialup with a dynamic rather than a static IP. While we are all looking forward to the day when IPv6 is deployed, or someone implements Dynamic DNS updates from RADIUS credential based authentication as a public reference implementation for UNIX hosts (ala Microsoft's IAS, which already supports this), neither of these look like they are going to happen any time soon. The correct way to deal with this is source host certificate based credentials, verified via DNS, and proxyiable through credential verification via email and/or virtual domain MX in DNS. Killing all multilevel relay goes further down the evil road that started with damaging the ability to allow source routing to overcome network failures following a nuclear war. What the RBL should *really* be enforcing is not allowing relay from machines not enforcing via the RBL; instead, it's this second order thing, with an assumption of end-to-end connectivity. The RBL could do this with a server RBL forward lookup for a "name" in a randomly chosen 32 bit space that rotates contents at intervals. The client would have to do an RBL lookup to be able to respond to the challenge. Alternately, a certificate system would allow incremental upgrade of servers with less dire consequences, since if a server were not presented a certificate before the "MAIL FROM:" when EHLO returned that the server supported the "CALLERID" ESMTP extension, the server could then ask the certificate authority "would you sign for this server if the server asked you to sign for it?". All transparent, and the load associated with not using certificate is pushed into a (potentially) large latency for the legacy client getting a positive response to the "MAIL FROM:". Mild punishment for a failure to upgrade. You could offer blanket exceptions for internal (local network) clients, and you could require dialup clients to register before you relay for them. If the people who are doing this get their way, there will be no way to send mail from one dialup server to another, unless both *happen* to be dialed in at the same time and using static IP's (or DDNS) so they can find each other's SMTP port via direct connection. This would be Bad(tm). You don't need the government to pass laws to screw up the Internet if you are willing to screw it up yourself. Taking the wire cutters to the intentionally redundant *on purpose* architecture is just plain stupid. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 17:50:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09560 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:50:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09551 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:50:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18340; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:50:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:50:50 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199902040150.RAA18340@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: References: <199902032358.QAA10889@usr08.primenet.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >What prevents someone from spamming through the relay then? 1. The ISP's mail relay may be RBL'd. More likely, however: 2. The ISP's mail relay may crash under the load caused by the thief, or may have technical measures to notify and/or react to large volumes of mail being sent from it. >What does the >DUL provide, then, that the RBL cannot? uunet's dialup pools were never going to be RBL'd. They will probably end up on the DUL, if they are not there already. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 17:51:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09600 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:51:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au (babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au [130.194.164.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09580 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:51:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from graeme@babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au) Received: from localhost (graeme@localhost) by babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08813; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:48:45 +1100 Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:48:45 +1100 (EST) From: Graeme Cross Reply-To: Graeme.Cross@sci.monash.edu.au To: "Viren R. Shah" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book about debugging with gdb? In-Reply-To: <199902031610.LAA90506@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> Message-ID: X-Attribution: gjc X-PGP-Key-ID: 702DB549 X-URL: http://www.wsc.monash.edu.au/~graeme/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Viren R. Shah wrote: >Anyone know of any good books dealing with debugging in general, and >gdb in particular? O'Reilly's "Programming with GNU Software" has a chapter devoted to using GDB: Chapter 6. Debugging C and C++ Programs Compilation for gdb Starting gdb Basic gdb Commands Variable Scope and Context Moving Up and Down the Call Stack C++ Programs Interface to Emacs Command Completion and Abbreviations Attaching to an Existing Process Quick Reference I have not read the book, so I can not comment on the quality, but I have read good reviews. Caveat emptor. >I found one book called "Debugging with GDB Version >4.17" by Stallman. Is this any good, or is it just the gdb info pages >printed out? Yes - the FSF sells hardcopy versions of the manuals to raise money. IMHO, the GDB info pages are quite good. Cheers Graeme -- Graeme Cross Water Studies Centre, Monash University Phone: +61 3 990 54089 Clayton, Victoria, Australia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 17:53:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09844 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:53:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09829 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:53:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18512; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:53:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:53:00 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199902040153.RAA18512@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of In-Reply-To: <199902040148.SAA14298.kithrup.freebsd.chat@usr02.primenet.com> References: <199902040109.RAA15905@kithrup.com> from "Sean Eric Fagan" at Feb 3, 99 05:09:20 pm Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <199902040148.SAA14298.kithrup.freebsd.chat@usr02.primenet.com> you write: >Actually, ORBS is preventing all multilevel relay. If an ISP is >willing to relay from a dialup that belongs to the ISP, then they >go onto the ORBS list (Primenet just made the list today, in fact). Did I mention ORBS? Nope. The only instance of "[oO][rR][bB][sS]" in my message is in the subject. I was talking about the DUL -- that is *.dul.maps.vix.com, sister of the RBL, which is *.rbl.maps.vix.com. For a variety of reasons, I will keep my opinions about ORBS to myself, save to say that I will not use it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 18:07:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12397 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:07:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12382 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:07:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA23811 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:08:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:08:08 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: <199902040109.RAA15905@kithrup.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > I have absolutely no sympathy for you, or anyone else affected by this -- all > it means is you have to use your ISP's mail relay, or find someone willing to > relay for you. You don't like it, tough -- but you were going to lose it > anyway, as more and more ISPs go with firewalls and redirectors. If you want > to run a server, then you should not be using a dialup pool; if your ISP > doesn't have anything but that, then you'll have to get your ISP to talk to > the DUL folks, if they end up on it. (And a netblock will only end up on the > DUL after spam is sent from it -- it's not pre-emptive.) Why has everyone I've spoken with who supports the DUL been a complete bastard about it? "I have absolutely no sympathy for you..." and "You don't like it, tough." Of course, my "height of fucking stupidity" comment may have had something to do with that. I don't have to beg for a mail relay. I run an ISP, a very spam-unfriendly one at that. But who are you to tell me I can't let my users run "servers" from dialups (although none of them do) as long as they stick to my AUP (posted on the web, if anyone here cares to look at it)? I have philosophical objections to the DUL, people. I question its usefulness/inconvenience ratio. I'm not out to help spammers, for Christ's sake. Now sod off, the lot of you ;) Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 18:13:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13399 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:13:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13391 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:13:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26866; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:12:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd026699; Wed Feb 3 19:12:34 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA16218; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:12:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902040212.TAA16218@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of To: jooji@webnology.com (Jasper O'Malley) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 02:12:12 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, billf@chc-chimes.com, Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, onemo@jps.net In-Reply-To: from "Jasper O'Malley" at Feb 3, 99 07:45:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ] > Not at all. ISP's that provide dynamic IP instead of static IP ] > just have to provide a relay server with a static IP for their ] > customers. ] ] What prevents someone from spamming through the relay then? The fact that they agreed to penalties when they obtained their account, one of which is losing their account, and therefore subsequent net connectivity. ] What does the DUL provide, then, that the RBL cannot? Among other things, it provides severe tire damage to the thin server market, and screws people out of the two legitimate uses for relay, while at the same time requireing an impossibly large static IP address space. On the plus side, it promotes deployment of IPv6 (years away, in any case, even with breaking legitimate users email), and promotes deployment of a RADIUS/DDNS connection. Unfortunately the only RADIUS/DDNS connection product on the market is Microsoft's IAS, and it looks like it is going to be a long time before there is a pubblic reference implemetnation, given the various licensing issues of the varius RADIUS implemetnations. So I guess the DUL also provides a nice incentive for legitimate ISP's to implement using Microsoft products, instead of UNIX products. ] > The only "prejudice" here is against non-accountable IP addresses. ] ] They're non-accountable whether or not the DUL exists. Whether or not you ] spam directly from a dialup or through a relay, it's equally easy (or ] difficult) to catch you. No it isn't. There is a header footprint for the whole route. If you can't read it, give it to someone competent, or download one of the freeware ustilities, like the "tracker"(sp?) Perl script. If the source ISP won't enforce AUP against the sender, then throw the ISP in the hole. Otherwise the sender is blown, and the problem is solved. ] > Really, Paul needs to not be running RBL, per se, but instead signing ] > weekly certificates for mail servers that aren't in the database. If ] > someone SPAMs, then they don't get their certificate signed. ] ] An opt-in for every mail server on the Internet? No. Mail servers that don't opt in will fail to send the certificate to servers that have opted in. Part of opting in for these servers is to be configured such that they ask the RBL "if this host had asked for a certificate, would you have signed it?". In other words, the exchanges is either: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- SMTP | Opt-in | Certificate client | server | Authority ----------------------------------------------------------------------- EHLO -> <- ... <- 250-CALLERID <- ... CALLERID ... -> <- 250 Certificate is current MAIL FROM: -> <- 250 ... or it's: EHLO -> <- ... <- 250-CALLERID <- ... MAIL FROM: -> Trust this schmo? -> <- Yes <- 250 ... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Pretty obvious, once it's spelled out. Clients that don't upgrade can send mail, but it takes them longer to get their "MAIL FROM:"'s "250" response than it would have had they been upgraded to get the certificates themselves. Things like the RBL really aren't that scalable to the entire Internet, until they become non-protocol centric (e.g., they are integrated to deny *all* services, not just SMTP) and they are widely deployed (perhaps as many RBL servers as normal DNS servers). People will always be able to "tunnel" information through "free email" providers like "HotMail". Burning a free email account from a shell account logged in via a dialup address is little different than burning an ISP account directly from a dialup address. How does DUL address account burning? A certificate approach causes netblock burning, which in the long run is a hell of a lot more expensive than account burning. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 19:08:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24413 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:08:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24392 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:08:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09134; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:08:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd009093; Wed Feb 3 20:08:37 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA19186; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:08:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902040308.UAA19186@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of To: jooji@webnology.com (Jasper O'Malley) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 03:08:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jasper O'Malley" at Feb 3, 99 08:08:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ] Why has everyone I've spoken with who supports the DUL been a complete ] bastard about it? "I have absolutely no sympathy for you..." and "You ] don't like it, tough." Of course, my "height of fucking stupidity" comment ] may have had something to do with that. Once you buy into the idea of proactive rather than reactive damage to the Internet's ability to transport email that ony *might* be SPAM, it's easier for you to think that honest people hurt by your proaction are being hurt for their own good. 8-|. Effectively, because SPAMmers use dialup IP address assignment, I *can't* use dialup IP address assignment, only static IP addresses on a dialup server. ] I don't have to beg for a mail relay. I run an ISP, a very spam-unfriendly ] one at that. But who are you to tell me I can't let my users run "servers" ] from dialups (although none of them do) as long as they stick to my AUP ] (posted on the web, if anyone here cares to look at it)? ] ] I have philosophical objections to the DUL, people. I question its ] usefulness/inconvenience ratio. I'm not out to help spammers, for ] Christ's sake. One big issue here is that the DUL is being maintained by the same people who provided the first half of the soloution to keeping DNS information correct in the face of dialup IP, but then failed to provide the second half -- the radiusd patches to allow the radiusd to look up the credential being authenticated and match it to a domain name that should have an MX record entered via DDNS for the duration of the session so that ETRN will work, and a host record entered via DDNS for the duration of the session so that a reverse lookup of the IP address will match the "HELO " and the "MAIL FROM:" part. In fact, you might go so far as to say that DUL has rendered future DDNS support for dialup dynamic IP address assignment not worth doing, since the dialup pool is going to end up in the DUL no matter what, even if DDNS. What's even more ironic is that the same company sells servers that may, at some point in the future, need to support dialup dynamic IP address assignment, as servers who are clients of the dynamic IP address assignment, so as to not artificially restrict their market (and thus income). The whole idea of a SPAM "soloution" that outlaws dialup IP address assignment, without providing a non-opt-in workaround, is rather repugnant. It also totally fails to address "portal" email, like that offered by HotMail and other companies, so all it really is is an arms race escalation, not a soloution. Bah humbug. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 19:13:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25137 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:13:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25128 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:13:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id VAA08613; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:12:55 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990203211255.S16540@futuresouth.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:12:55 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: marko@uk.radan.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Window managers References: <199902032221.PAA07118@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199902032221.PAA07118@usr08.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 10:21:38PM +0000 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 10:21:38PM +0000, a little birdie told me that Terry Lambert remarked > > > > BTW, IWBNI one could tell FvwmWinList not to quit when it got a > > > ^^^^^ > > > ??? > > > > *sigh* you guys'll make me wear my fingers down to the bone. IWBNI is > > short for "it would be nice if". > > WOCTTOIR... > > ("Well Of Course, That's Totally Obvious In Retrospect") IOTTMCO ("Intuitively Obvious To The Most Casual Observer") --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 19:56:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04062 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:56:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cactus.verinet.com (cactus.verinet.com [204.144.246.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA04037 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:56:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from verinet.com ([206.168.245.41]) by cactus.verinet.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA07332; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:56:08 -0700 Message-ID: <36B91A4C.C30164A7@verinet.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:55:56 -0700 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE References: <199902021853.LAA06637@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > And, again, a good way to try to get a good desktop BSD licensed. I'd really > > > like to see something slick that's not GPLed.... Maybe they'd > > > be willing. > > > > At this point I can't imagine there is a huge amount loyalty to GNU > > amongst the KDE powers-that-be. They have been treated very poorly by > > GNU due to the original QT license. Despite the remarkable changes that > > have taken place with QT as a direct result of KDE, GNU has little > > regard any of it. > > The ORB is GPL'ed. You aren't going to get the ORB out as BSD > licensed code. > > The desktop, well, there you might have a chance. To be honest, I don't really care whether a desktop is GPL or otherwise. The compiler and half the applications I use are GPL and the sun keeps appearing in the East each day, whether welcome or not. The need for an attractive environment is the real point. GNU development tools are well integrated into FreeBSD and as a result, FreeBSD is a consistent and productive development environment. A well integrated GUI could make FreeBSD an engaging desktop. Not that a nice desktop can't be done with FreeBSD; I'm using one now. On the other hand, how would you expect the use of and contributions to FreeBSD to be affected if the user were expected to obtain, configure and install all of the necessary development tools to match what they take for granted now? The answer is obvious and relevant, and that is why GNU tools play the role they do now. -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:03:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05595 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:03:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA05583 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:03:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id XAA14111; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:03:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:03:13 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Drew Baxter cc: Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990203144119.03d84890@genesis.ispace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: > What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. 1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:23:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08952 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:23:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08934 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:23:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4015.ime.net [209.90.195.25]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id XAA81774; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:22:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990203230449.03db0f10@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:22:11 -0500 To: Jamie Bowden From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD Cc: Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990203144119.03d84890@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:03 PM 2/3/99 , Jamie Bowden wrote: >On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: > >> What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. > >1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. > >Jamie Bowden Well I must be kicking senility really hard then :-) http://www.droo.orland.me.us/images/fbsd20cd.jpg I wonder if the thing will still install.. didn't check to see if it was abused before putting it on the scanner, and too lazy to get up to check it now.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:25:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09455 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:25:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09448 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:25:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA03616; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:55:26 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id OAA65325; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:55:20 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:55:20 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Drew Baxter , Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990204145520.I1179@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990203144119.03d84890@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jamie Bowden on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:03:13PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:03:13 -0500, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: > >> What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. > > 1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. In fact, the 2.0 CD *is* marked Jaunary 1994. Wrong year, and they spelt the month wrong. It's a collector's item :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:29:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10374 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:29:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10362 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:29:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4015.ime.net [209.90.195.25]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id XAA81781; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:28:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990203232749.03dad190@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:28:06 -0500 To: Greg Lehey , Jamie Bowden From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD Cc: Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990204145520.I1179@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990203144119.03d84890@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:25 PM 2/3/99 , Greg Lehey wrote: >On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:03:13 -0500, Jamie Bowden wrote: >> On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: >> >>> What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. >> >> 1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. > >In fact, the 2.0 CD *is* marked Jaunary 1994. Wrong year, and they >spelt the month wrong. It's a collector's item :-) Hmm my month is spelt properly, go look at the web page... I posted it. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:29:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10515 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:29:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10492 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:29:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA03633; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:59:41 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id OAA65382; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:59:41 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:59:41 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Drew Baxter Cc: Jamie Bowden , Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990204145941.K1179@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990203144119.03d84890@genesis.ispace.com> <19990204145520.I1179@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19990203232749.03dad190@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990203232749.03dad190@genesis.ispace.com>; from Drew Baxter on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:28:06PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:28:06 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: > At 11:25 PM 2/3/99 , Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:03:13 -0500, Jamie Bowden wrote: >>> On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: >>> >>>> What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. >>> >>> 1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. >> >> In fact, the 2.0 CD *is* marked Jaunary 1994. Wrong year, and they >> spelt the month wrong. It's a collector's item :-) > > Hmm my month is spelt properly, go look at the web page... I posted it. Is it spelt properly on the edge of the jewel box? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:34:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11246 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:34:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11241 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:34:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4019.ime.net [209.90.195.29]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id XAA81794; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:33:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990203233230.03db70d0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:33:04 -0500 To: Greg Lehey From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD Cc: Jamie Bowden , Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990204145941.K1179@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990203232749.03dad190@genesis.ispace.com> <4.1.19990203144119.03d84890@genesis.ispace.com> <19990204145520.I1179@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19990203232749.03dad190@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:29 PM 2/3/99 , Greg Lehey wrote: >On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:28:06 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: >> At 11:25 PM 2/3/99 , Greg Lehey wrote: >>> On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:03:13 -0500, Jamie Bowden wrote: >>>> On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: >>>> >>>>> What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. >>>> >>>> 1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. >>> >>> In fact, the 2.0 CD *is* marked Jaunary 1994. Wrong year, and they >>> spelt the month wrong. It's a collector's item :-) >> >> Hmm my month is spelt properly, go look at the web page... I posted it. > >Is it spelt properly on the edge of the jewel box? That would involve me finding it :) as it goes the cd was loose in my 5 1/4 floppy box down in the basement.. I knew where the CD was. You'd think I'd notice a fluke like that though.. I'll see if I can find it. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:36:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11472 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:36:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11463 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:36:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA03682; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:06:30 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA65438; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:06:28 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:06:28 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Drew Baxter Cc: Jamie Bowden , Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990204150628.L1179@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990203144119.03d84890@genesis.ispace.com> <4.1.19990203230449.03db0f10@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990203230449.03db0f10@genesis.ispace.com>; from Drew Baxter on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 11:22:11PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:22:11 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: > At 11:03 PM 2/3/99 , Jamie Bowden wrote: >> On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: >> >>> What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. >> >> 1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. > > Well I must be kicking senility really hard then :-) > http://www.droo.orland.me.us/images/fbsd20cd.jpg > > I wonder if the thing will still install.. didn't check to see if it was > abused before putting it on the scanner, and too lazy to get up to check it > now.. Yup, that's the same one I have. The jewel box is marked "Jaunary 1994" on the side. And before anybody asks: yes, this CD really does have a black and white label. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:36:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11487 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:36:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11466 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:36:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4019.ime.net [209.90.195.29]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id XAA81801; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:36:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990203233432.03bbba20@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:35:16 -0500 To: Greg Lehey From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD Cc: Jamie Bowden , Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990204145941.K1179@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990203232749.03dad190@genesis.ispace.com> <4.1.19990203144119.03d84890@genesis.ispace.com> <19990204145520.I1179@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19990203232749.03dad190@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:29 PM 2/3/99 , Greg Lehey wrote: >On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:28:06 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: >> At 11:25 PM 2/3/99 , Greg Lehey wrote: >>> On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:03:13 -0500, Jamie Bowden wrote: >>>> On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: >>>> >>>>> What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. >>>> >>>> 1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. >>> >>> In fact, the 2.0 CD *is* marked Jaunary 1994. Wrong year, and they >>> spelt the month wrong. It's a collector's item :-) >> >> Hmm my month is spelt properly, go look at the web page... I posted it. > >Is it spelt properly on the edge of the jewel box? > Nope it's misspelt there. but not on the back. As it was the back of the jewel case was still in the bin, the front paperwork is DOA.. Well it's around, somewhere. The binding does say Jaunary though. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:37:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11608 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:37:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA11603 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:37:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id XAA14141; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:37:00 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:37:00 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Drew Baxter cc: Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990203230449.03db0f10@genesis.ispace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: > At 11:03 PM 2/3/99 , Jamie Bowden wrote: > >On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: > > > >> What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. > > > >1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. > > > >Jamie Bowden > > Well I must be kicking senility really hard then :-) > http://www.droo.orland.me.us/images/fbsd20cd.jpg > > I wonder if the thing will still install.. didn't check to see if it was > abused before putting it on the scanner, and too lazy to get up to check it > now.. http://www.series2000.com/users/jamie/FreeBSD.jpg There's a scan of Disk and Box. The Box says May 94, the disk June 94. I know 2.0 came out later, I was overjoyed when it finally supported my Matsushita CR-563 2x CD-ROM drive on my SB16 with 2.0.5. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:42:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12444 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:42:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12428 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:41:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4019.ime.net [209.90.195.29]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id XAA81810; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:41:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990203233849.03bad830@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:40:59 -0500 To: Jamie Bowden From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD Cc: Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990203230449.03db0f10@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:37 PM 2/3/99 , Jamie Bowden wrote: >On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: > >> At 11:03 PM 2/3/99 , Jamie Bowden wrote: >> >On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: >> > >> >> What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. >> > >> >1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. >> > >> >Jamie Bowden >> >> Well I must be kicking senility really hard then :-) >> http://www.droo.orland.me.us/images/fbsd20cd.jpg >> >> I wonder if the thing will still install.. didn't check to see if it was >> abused before putting it on the scanner, and too lazy to get up to check it >> now.. > >http://www.series2000.com/users/jamie/FreeBSD.jpg > >There's a scan of Disk and Box. The Box says May 94, the disk June 94. I >know 2.0 came out later, I was overjoyed when it finally supported my >Matsushita CR-563 2x CD-ROM drive on my SB16 with 2.0.5. > >Jamie Bowden I'm just saying what it says on it :) I don't keep track of when I get the stuff. As it was the cd 'appeared' here because I talked someone into getting it for another networking project and we didn't end up using it.. I have 2.1 that I actually purchased (although the Disc 1 is nowhere to be found) it was Jan 1996. As it goes I've been doing net installs since.. If I remember right 2.0 was the first introduction to the Sony CDU33A CD-ROM, which I still have in a drawer here somewhere. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:44:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12670 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:44:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12664 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:44:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA84766; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:43:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Drew Baxter cc: Greg Lehey , Jamie Bowden , Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:28:06 EST." <4.1.19990203232749.03dad190@genesis.ispace.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:43:51 -0800 Message-ID: <84743.918103431@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg is actually talking about a CD produced only in small numbers and corrected immediately afterwards. Of course, anyone who's ever looked at http://www.freebsd.org/publish.html#cdroms knows the full story already. :-) - Jordan > At 11:25 PM 2/3/99 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:03:13 -0500, Jamie Bowden wrote: > >> On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: > >> > >>> What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. > >> > >> 1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. > > > >In fact, the 2.0 CD *is* marked Jaunary 1994. Wrong year, and they > >spelt the month wrong. It's a collector's item :-) > > Hmm my month is spelt properly, go look at the web page... I posted it. > > > --- > Drew "Droobie" Baxter > Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) > OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA > http://www.droo.orland.me.us > > PGP ID: 409A1F7D > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:44:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12704 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:44:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12697 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4019.ime.net [209.90.195.29]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id XAA81814; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:44:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990203234313.03b969e0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:43:36 -0500 To: Greg Lehey From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD Cc: Jamie Bowden , Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990204150628.L1179@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990203230449.03db0f10@genesis.ispace.com> <4.1.19990203144119.03d84890@genesis.ispace.com> <4.1.19990203230449.03db0f10@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:36 PM 2/3/99 , Greg Lehey wrote: >On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:22:11 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: >> At 11:03 PM 2/3/99 , Jamie Bowden wrote: >>> On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: >>> >>>> What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. >>> >>> 1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. >> >> Well I must be kicking senility really hard then :-) >> http://www.droo.orland.me.us/images/fbsd20cd.jpg >> >> I wonder if the thing will still install.. didn't check to see if it was >> abused before putting it on the scanner, and too lazy to get up to check it >> now.. > >Yup, that's the same one I have. The jewel box is marked "Jaunary >1994" on the side. And before anybody asks: yes, this CD really does >have a black and white label. > >Greg Such a bummer too, because Jamie's 1.1 CD is so much more picturesque. You'd expect 'better' between versions, not worse :) --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 20:48:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13175 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:48:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13155 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:47:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4019.ime.net [209.90.195.29]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id XAA81821; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:47:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990203234602.03b8c590@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:46:35 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD Cc: Greg Lehey , Jamie Bowden , Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <84743.918103431@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:43 PM 2/3/99 , Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Greg is actually talking about a CD produced only in small numbers >and corrected immediately afterwards. Of course, anyone who's ever >looked at http://www.freebsd.org/publish.html#cdroms knows the full >story already. :-) > >- Jordan Well see I have a habit of stockpiling a lot of useless crap.. Like this 250 user copy of Intranetware 4.11 that I got for like 1/20th of the regular cost. Oh yeah I see me using it too. Not. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 21:08:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15637 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:08:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15628 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:08:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19060; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:07:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990203210740.A18995@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:07:40 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Greg Lehey , Unfurl Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990203133655.C16919@mooseriver.com> <19990203135254.A13235@dub.net> <19990204120129.Y1179@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19990204120129.Y1179@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 12:01:29PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 12:01:29PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 13:52:55 -0800, Unfurl wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 01:36:55PM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > >> On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:32:10AM -0800, Nicole Harrington wrote: > >> I agree. A nice box product looks like a "legitimate" product. At one point > >> several years ago Walnut Creek was shipping just such a package for > >> FreeBSD. I found several Barnes & Nobles in Chicago carrying this. Can't > >> say what happened to it. Walnut Creek should bring back the box package to > >> augment their product line. It should look like, (digging in my box of > >> microsludge software), Eudora Pro. Lets see.... we have a "quick start > >> guide", an eudora pro cdrom, a technical support information paper with all > >> sorts of important numbers (I secretly think they are just random numbers), > >> an advertisement for cvideo-mail, "Attach full motion video and sound to > >> your e-mail" ugh!, a manul, and a registration card. > > > > I have never seen this package but that sounds liek a great idea. I > > think that because many of the Linux distros have this kind of packaging > > they are more able to sell products in place like B&n or Borders. > > I don't really see why this should be so, at least if the book is > included. I've seen the things on sale at Borders, and they're mainly > books. > > >> Now, I can hear Jordan chanting his mantra, "great, send me the diffs", but > >> we have all this stuff. It would just take a marketing person a few weeks to > >> whip this into a nice spiffy product. The only stumbling block is our old > >> problem, the manual. We could package Greg Leheys' book without the freaking > >> man pages. > > > > No cut on Greg, but this would be quite welcome. > > OK, one more time: > > The man pages are going away. > > Amusingly, they came in in the first edition (which was really the > second edition) in order to make the box feel heavier :-) > > >> In reality we do need another FreeBSD book. Greg can't be > >> carrying the whole load for us. > > Agreed. We need several books. I want everyone to understand, I meant no slam toward Greg. He has done a bang-up job for us. Greg knows I am a fan of his work. I own every book he has written except "The history of the Bassoon". Sorry, Greg. No one here in Berkeley seems to carry it. ;-) I just meant that we need more FreeBSD books. I'd write one if I could find the time. I once suggested to Tim O'Reilly that he do a FreeBSD in a Nutshell. That would be a good start for someone. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 21:17:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16834 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:17:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16827 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:17:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA03860; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:47:33 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA65805; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:47:31 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:47:31 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Josef Grosch Cc: Unfurl , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Message-ID: <19990204154731.M1179@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990203133655.C16919@mooseriver.com> <19990203135254.A13235@dub.net> <19990204120129.Y1179@freebie.lemis.com> <19990203210740.A18995@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990203210740.A18995@mooseriver.com>; from Josef Grosch on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:07:40PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 21:07:40 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 12:01:29PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 13:52:55 -0800, Unfurl wrote: >>> On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 01:36:55PM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >>>> On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:32:10AM -0800, Nicole Harrington wrote: >>>> In reality we do need another FreeBSD book. Greg can't be >>>> carrying the whole load for us. >> >> Agreed. We need several books. > > I want everyone to understand, I meant no slam toward Greg. He has done a > bang-up job for us. Greg knows I am a fan of his work. I own every book he > has written except "The history of the Bassoon". Sorry, Greg. No one here > in Berkeley seems to carry it. ;-) To be fair, Langwill's book is better. > I just meant that we need more FreeBSD books. I'd write one if I could find > the time. You need lots of time. > I once suggested to Tim O'Reilly that he do a FreeBSD in a > Nutshell. That would be a good start for someone. And what did Tim say? He and his company have been pretty disinterested every time I've mentioned the subject. I was talking to them nearly a year ago now, but they stopped responding. I think we might see a book out of O'Reilly from Nate Patwardhan in the near future. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 21:24:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17339 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:24:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17329 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:24:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19112; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:23:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990203212330.B19080@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:23:30 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Greg Lehey , Drew Baxter Cc: Jamie Bowden , Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <4.1.19990203144119.03d84890@genesis.ispace.com> <19990204145520.I1179@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19990203232749.03dad190@genesis.ispace.com> <19990204145941.K1179@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19990204145941.K1179@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 02:59:41PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 02:59:41PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:28:06 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: > > At 11:25 PM 2/3/99 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 23:03:13 -0500, Jamie Bowden wrote: > >>> On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: > >>> > >>>> What's really sad is I still have a January 1994 2.0 CD around here.. > >>> > >>> 1995. I am staring at my pair of 1.1 CD's, and they are marked May 1994. > >> > >> In fact, the 2.0 CD *is* marked Jaunary 1994. Wrong year, and they > >> spelt the month wrong. It's a collector's item :-) > > > > Hmm my month is spelt properly, go look at the web page... I posted it. > > Is it spelt properly on the edge of the jewel box? The month is mis-spelled in the edge of the jewel case, "Jaunary 1994" and Chuck has green sneakers instead of the normal red. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 21:38:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18287 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:38:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA18282 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:38:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19137; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:38:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990203213805.C19080@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:38:05 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Is there a reseller program? Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990203133655.C16919@mooseriver.com> <19990203135254.A13235@dub.net> <19990204120129.Y1179@freebie.lemis.com> <19990203210740.A18995@mooseriver.com> <19990204154731.M1179@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19990204154731.M1179@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 03:47:31PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 03:47:31PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 21:07:40 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 04, 1999 at 12:01:29PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Wednesday, 3 February 1999 at 13:52:55 -0800, Unfurl wrote: > >>> On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 01:36:55PM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > >>>> On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 09:32:10AM -0800, Nicole Harrington wrote: > >>>> In reality we do need another FreeBSD book. Greg can't be > >>>> carrying the whole load for us. > >> > >> Agreed. We need several books. > > > > I want everyone to understand, I meant no slam toward Greg. He has done a > > bang-up job for us. Greg knows I am a fan of his work. I own every book he > > has written except "The history of the Bassoon". Sorry, Greg. No one here > > in Berkeley seems to carry it. ;-) > > To be fair, Langwill's book is better. I'll look for it the next time I'm in Cody's > > > I just meant that we need more FreeBSD books. I'd write one if I could find > > the time. > > You need lots of time. Yes, that is my guess which is why I have not made much effort at writing a book. > > > I once suggested to Tim O'Reilly that he do a FreeBSD in a > > Nutshell. That would be a good start for someone. > > And what did Tim say? He and his company have been pretty > disinterested every time I've mentioned the subject. > > I was talking to them nearly a year ago now, but they stopped > responding. I think we might see a book out of O'Reilly from Nate > Patwardhan in the near future. I mentioned it to him at the Open Source Convention last June in San Jose. I suggested that he take "Unix in a Nutshell" for SunOS and start there. Of all the nutshell books they have done that would be the closest. He said they he would look into it. I suspect he said that to shut me up. Someone else could do a nutshell book for FreeBSD. Same format but they could no use the name. How about "The Geek Desk Reference" ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 23:17:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28424 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:17:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28419 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:17:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11933; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:17:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd011901; Thu Feb 4 00:17:46 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04748; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:17:29 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902040717.AAA04748@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:17:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com, netmonger@genesis.ispace.com, jamie@itribe.net, julian@whistle.com, root@triton.press.southern.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990203212330.B19080@mooseriver.com> from "Josef Grosch" at Feb 3, 99 09:23:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Hmm my month is spelt properly, go look at the web page... I posted it. > > > > Is it spelt properly on the edge of the jewel box? > > The month is mis-spelled in the edge of the jewel case, "Jaunary 1994" and > Chuck has green sneakers instead of the normal red. I look forward to seeing it on "The Antiques Roadshow"... ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 3 23:28:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00254 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stade.demon.co.uk (stade.demon.co.uk [158.152.29.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA00248 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:28:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.1) id GAA49726 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:41:53 GMT (envelope-from aw1) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:41:52 +0000 From: Adrian Wontroba To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com Message-ID: <19990204064152.A42062@titus.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Bill Fumerola on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 04:16:58AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 04:16:58AM -0500, Bill Fumerola wrote: > Amen. If admins want to indulge in this powertrip, so be it. I will back > out any change which makes that port do that by default, though. Hear, Hear! (From a man on a dialup line, static ip, etc, who prefers to deliver mail directly to the (MX) target, rather than trust the vagaries of his ISP's mail smart hosts.) -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 00:04:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04590 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:04:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04585 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:04:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19523; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:02:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990204000246.A19482@mooseriver.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:02:46 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, eric@transbay.net Subject: Berkeley BAFUG Meetings Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Transbay has been kind enought to offer us a space to meet in. Transbay is located in Berkeley at 2569 Telegraph Ave, between Blake and Parker. Our first meeting will be in March at 7:30pm till 10:00pm. As to the date, that is for you to deside. So what I am looking for a vote of what is the best date. The second Thursday of the month is out since that is the date of the San Francisco BAFUG. We really should only hold the meeting during the week. So, let the voting begin. I cast the first vote for the 4th Thursday of each month which means our first meeting will be on March 25th. "The gong of fate sounds" Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 01:55:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18356 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 01:55:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18342 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 01:55:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15347; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:55:30 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA24790; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:55:20 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:55:15 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Socializing the use of "BSD" as a term Message-ID: <19990204105515.S8749@bitbox.follo.net> References: <19990203101221.H8749@bitbox.follo.net> <79af10$b9o$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <79af10$b9o$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 10:28:00PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you're talking to me, please Cc: or To: me. Otherwise, I'm as likely to not see your posting as I am to reading it (I don't read the mails coming through the mailinglists anyway near as carefully as I read those that come directly). On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 10:28:00PM +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > > I wonder what ye all say about starting a socializing process by > > > which we all refer to FreeBSD, OpenBSD, BSDi, and NetBSD as just > > > "BSD" except where it is needed to differentiate. > > > > I don't think that will work - too many connotations to "BSD", > > What's wrong with these? Nothing is "wrong" with them - I just think they'll hinder effective replacement of the term '*BSD' with 'BSD'. > Actually, what connotations did you have in mind? For me, 'BSD' without any annotations will point my mind at the 4.3 timeframe, CSRG, and their official releases. Other people have other associations. I think this set of associations will make it hard to get people to switch their terminology. > > besides which we do not have the trademark. > > That concerns official documents. Mostly. It would create problems for having an official position of using 'BSD' to refer to ourselves and all our siblings. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 11:31:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07621 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:31:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07573 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:31:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA172155610; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:40:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:40:10 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: <199902032358.QAA10889@usr08.primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > Not at all. ISP's that provide dynamic IP instead of static IP > just have to provide a relay server with a static IP for their > customers. Why? RADIUS logs are just about as easy to read as any other file telling the administrator which person is at the other end of a static link. Do you think that my uplink knows my block(s) by heart? It's just a different file to look at. > Really, Paul needs to not be running RBL, per se, but instead signing > weekly certificates for mail servers that aren't in the database. If > someone SPAMs, then they don't get their certificate signed. That's would restore some legitimacy. > Alternately, you could put up your own server and answer dialup IP > queries yourself, and forward all others to Paul's server. Honestly, I don't think neither Paul nor me should be playing god. > Of course, I'd never point any of my machines at your server, > given that youd let in the UUNET and PSINet cretins who run open > relays and refuse to do anything about them... I doubt you'd get > many takers, in fact. (If I were running it) I'd blacklist them because they were running relays, not because they are dialup users. Assuming all dialup users are evil and irresponsible is a bad idea. Everyone seems to be missing a large point here. Spammers should be punished because they spam. People who have never spammed should not be punished because of some elitist quest to squash those who do not have more bandwidth then a POTS/ISDN line. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 12:10:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13456 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:10:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cs.bu.edu (CS.BU.EDU [128.197.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13363 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:10:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwalu@cs.bu.edu) Received: from csa.bu.edu (dwalu@csa [128.197.12.3]) by cs.bu.edu ((8.8.8.buoit.v1.0)/8.8.8/(BU-S-10/16/98-v1.0a)) with ESMTP id PAA11772; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (dwalu@localhost) by csa.bu.edu ((8.8.8.buoit.v1.0)/8.8.8/(BU-C-10/16/98-v1.0a)) with ESMTP id PAA00124; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:09:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: csa.bu.edu: dwalu owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:09:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Dwalu Z. Khasu" X-Sender: dwalu@csa.bu.edu To: announce@bafug.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Interesting scenario w/ FreeBSD 3.0 In-Reply-To: <19990204000246.A19482@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At the last installfest, Josef and I tried installing 3.0 on my new Gateway (G400, 96M) and 2-3 times, we got segfaults just about the end of the installation process and and then it aborted. The other day, I was cleaning up using System Commander Deluxe and got an entry in my selection window titled 'BSD' - Sure enough, I selected it and everything seemed to come up OK. A couple of questions: (especially since I'm *extremely* new to freeBSD) Where could it have been generated... internally by the installer or something else being run? Are there any tools to validate the installation? Basically, I'm not so sure I can trust this install....any ideas or suggestions? Thanx - Dwalu .peace -- I am an important person in this world - Now is the most important time in my life - My mistakes are my best teachers - So I will be fearless. - Student Creed To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 12:45:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18812 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:45:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18786 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:45:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA13987; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:45:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:45:43 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: Bill Fumerola cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Bill Fumerola wrote: > (If I were running it) I'd blacklist them because they were running > relays, not because they are dialup users. Assuming all dialup users are > evil and irresponsible is a bad idea. > > Everyone seems to be missing a large point here. Spammers should be > punished because they spam. People who have never spammed should not be > punished because of some elitist quest to squash those who do not have > more bandwidth then a POTS/ISDN line. You're absolutely right. However, complaints to uu.net, psi.net, netcom.{com,net,ca}, att, mci, etc. have not reduced the amount of spam I received from those sources in the least. Blocking their dialup ports has reduced it by much more than 50%. It's not a matter of passing judgment on the type of connection someone has, it's a matter of what keeps that crap out of my mailbox. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 14:49:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05782 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:49:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05775 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:49:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-78-182.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.78.182]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10409; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:49:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA08240; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:04:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: dwalu@cs.bu.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting scenario w/ FreeBSD 3.0 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:09:51 -0500 (EST)" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990204180437X.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 18:04:37 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 62 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Dwalu Z. Khasu" Subject: Interesting scenario w/ FreeBSD 3.0 Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:09:51 -0500 (EST) > At the last installfest, Josef and I tried installing 3.0 on my new > Gateway (G400, 96M) and 2-3 times, we got segfaults just about the end of > the installation process and and then it aborted. Depends on when the release you were loading from was built; sysinstall was temporarily broken just recently causing me the same problem here. Thanks to Jordan and others, they seem to have it back on track (for 3.0-STABLE anyway) > > The other day, I was cleaning up using System Commander Deluxe and got an > entry in my selection window titled 'BSD' - Sure enough, I selected it and > everything seemed to come up OK. > > A couple of questions: (especially since I'm *extremely* new to freeBSD) Welcome! > > Where could it have been generated... internally by the installer or > something else being run? Sounds like you got through most of the install. > Are there any tools to validate the installation? Not knowing what to compare it against, can't say. > > Basically, I'm not so sure I can trust this install....any ideas > or suggestions? Thanx I probably wouldn't feel really good about it. You *might* be able to 'make world' and get a complete good install from there. Then again, maybe not. I'd probably reinstall :-( Good Luck, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net > - Dwalu > .peace > -- > I am an important person in this world - > Now is the most important time in my life - > My mistakes are my best teachers - > So I will be fearless. > - Student Creed > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 15:32:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11533 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:32:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11527 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:32:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA21243; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:32:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: jack cc: Bill Fumerola , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:45:43 EST." Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:32:10 -0800 Message-ID: <21239.918171130@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You're absolutely right. However, complaints to uu.net, psi.net, > netcom.{com,net,ca}, att, mci, etc. have not reduced the amount > of spam I received from those sources in the least. Blocking > their dialup ports has reduced it by much more than 50%. And for other people, it blocks more than 50% of the actual traffic they wish to receive which is why it needs to remain a SITE SPECIFIC choice. We may turn something like blind-relaying off by default (since it's so widely abused in 3rd party spam) but we're not going to turn on ANYBODY'S map database by default. Period. That's a local administrator's decision to make. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 16:46:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23007 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:46:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23002 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:46:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA14904; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:46:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:46:16 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: <21239.918171130@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > You're absolutely right. However, complaints to uu.net, psi.net, > > netcom.{com,net,ca}, att, mci, etc. have not reduced the amount > > of spam I received from those sources in the least. Blocking > > their dialup ports has reduced it by much more than 50%. > > And for other people, it blocks more than 50% of the actual traffic > they wish to receive which is why it needs to remain a SITE SPECIFIC > choice. We may turn something like blind-relaying off by default > (since it's so widely abused in 3rd party spam) but we're not going to > turn on ANYBODY'S map database by default. Period. That's a local > administrator's decision to make. If it were up to me *everything* during installs/upgrades would be site specific. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 17:31:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28254 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:31:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28234 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:31:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4027.ime.net [209.90.195.37]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id UAA83130 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:31:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990204202534.03a8ad00@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 20:26:47 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Non-FreeBSD stuff.. but cool. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If anyone wants to see Robbie Knieval try to jump building to building, it's live on FOX right now.. Pacific people will have to wait until 8pm I guess to see it taped. I gotta say this is probably the most whacked one I've seen thusfar. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 19:56:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19540 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:56:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19534 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:56:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-68-25.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.68.25]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA09340; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA00596; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:13:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-FreeBSD stuff.. but cool. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Feb 1999 20:26:47 -0500" <4.1.19990204202534.03a8ad00@genesis.ispace.com> References: <4.1.19990204202534.03a8ad00@genesis.ispace.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990204231309O.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:13:09 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 28 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Non-FreeBSD stuff.. but cool. Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 20:26:47 -0500 > If anyone wants to see Robbie Knieval try to jump building to building, > it's live on FOX right now.. Pacific people will have to wait until 8pm I > guess to see it taped. > > I gotta say this is probably the most whacked one I've seen thusfar. > Yeah. You'd be too young too remember the spectacle of his Dad soaring into the Snake River instead of over it :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net > > --- > Drew "Droobie" Baxter > Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) > OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA > http://www.droo.orland.me.us > > PGP ID: 409A1F7D > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 20:00:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19993 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:00:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA19988 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:00:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4027.ime.net [209.90.195.37]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id XAA09342; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:00:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990204225649.03c5e7a0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:59:08 -0500 To: W Gerald Hicks From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Non-FreeBSD stuff.. but cool. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990204231309O.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> References: <4.1.19990204202534.03a8ad00@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:13 PM 2/4/99 , W Gerald Hicks wrote: >From: Drew Baxter >Subject: Re: Non-FreeBSD stuff.. but cool. >Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 20:26:47 -0500 > >> If anyone wants to see Robbie Knieval try to jump building to building, >> it's live on FOX right now.. Pacific people will have to wait until 8pm I >> guess to see it taped. >> >> I gotta say this is probably the most whacked one I've seen thusfar. >> > >Yeah. You'd be too young too remember the spectacle of his Dad >soaring into the Snake River instead of over it :-) They showed some pretty nasty scenes of stuff his father did. I will say that the shocking videos show AFTER it made my stomach turn some. Knieval made it look too easy landing that thing on the ramp.. I don't know how much I like seeing that stuff live though. I said to a friend of mine "Wellll at least they didn't ask his daughter what it would be like to be an orphan in less than 30 minutes". But I guess it goes with the territory. People pay good money to see people 'defy death'. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 20:58:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25762 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:58:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25757 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:58:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07556; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:58:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd007309; Thu Feb 4 21:58:05 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA18801; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:57:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902050457.VAA18801@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of To: jack@germanium.xtalwind.net (jack) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 04:57:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: billf@chc-chimes.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "jack" at Feb 4, 99 03:45:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > (If I were running it) I'd blacklist them because they were running > > relays, not because they are dialup users. Assuming all dialup users are > > evil and irresponsible is a bad idea. > > > > Everyone seems to be missing a large point here. Spammers should be > > punished because they spam. People who have never spammed should not be > > punished because of some elitist quest to squash those who do not have > > more bandwidth then a POTS/ISDN line. > > You're absolutely right. However, complaints to uu.net, psi.net, > netcom.{com,net,ca}, att, mci, etc. have not reduced the amount > of spam I received from those sources in the least. Blocking > their dialup ports has reduced it by much more than 50%. > > It's not a matter of passing judgment on the type of connection > someone has, it's a matter of what keeps that crap out of my > mailbox. Just to chime in here... Although it is not obvious from the DUL web pages at this time, not all dialup IP's are tarred with this brush. Specifically, I have been led to believe that the people there are aware of the lack of difference between an HTML tunnel to an SMTP server accessed via a dialup IP, and an SMTP server that is directly accessed by a dialup IP. This means that if you have an anti-SPAM AUP, and you enforce it, your dialups will not necessarily remain listed in the DUL. This actually drastically reduces the DUL damage to effectively the damage caused by the RBL itself -- in other words, it is an opt-in for people with AUP's to allow their dialups to relay. My original understanding was that all dialups were going to be screwed to using an ISP mail server to relay mail, in the face of ISP objections to relaying, ISP ignorance of the fact that it would release their modems for other customers more quickly for them to relay, and the inability of ISP's in Japan to relay due to being charged per packet sent. That dialups can be secured from DUL listing is welcome news, and, on the whole, seems to me to be no worse than enforcing RFC conformance for DNS server contents (e.g., a policy that you can opt into enforcement, and the people attempting to contact you in violation of that policy will fail in the attempt). The documentation on the WWW site needs to be cleared up in this regard; my understanding was obtained through several email "converations". On the plus side, this saves me from writing an SMTP to HTML tunnel for HotMail this weekend (using my Visual InterDev and Visual C++ tools) so as to dump them in the same boat as dialup IP and drag MicroSoft into the fray: dialup IP -> HotMail -> SMTP is topologically equivalent to: dialup IP -> SMTP ...luckily, this was already obvious to the parties involved. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 4 21:33:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28613 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:33:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28605 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:33:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA28483; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:32:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:32:19 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: jack cc: Bill Fumerola , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of dorkslayers.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, jack wrote: > You're absolutely right. However, complaints to uu.net, psi.net, > netcom.{com,net,ca}, att, mci, etc. have not reduced the amount > of spam I received from those sources in the least. Blocking > their dialup ports has reduced it by much more than 50%. And as someone with an address on 99% of all spamdiscs out there, I concur. I also receive postmaster mail here, so I get even more... Here we see about 60% of spam coming from the dialup ports of large providers. Sending mail to their abuse departments does nothing. If it's a smaller provider, I generally get a nice note back stating the account was cancelled. > It's not a matter of passing judgment on the type of connection > someone has, it's a matter of what keeps that crap out of my > mailbox. Again, you are correct. Some software out there now does a "dictionary" attack, er, delivery where it tries tens of thousands of usernames that result in as many bounces. If I can block this abuse (and when it brings your mailserver to it's knees, that is abuse) I will do it. A host with a dynamic IP has no business sending mail unless it's through a relay. I think you'll find: 1) large providers do not even give out static addresses 2) smaller ones (like us) have those in a seperate block from the dynamic pools, making it easy for someone to leave the static IPs alone. There's also some sense in doing it by name. Blocking *.da.uu.net will not hurt static IP customers. If you have a static IP, you are most likely going to be named something.blah.com with no special naming convention that identifies you as a dial access user. Charles > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst > jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. > Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. > PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD > enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 5 07:01:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28306 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:01:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA28301 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:01:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27459; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:01:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990205070131.A27432@mooseriver.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:01:31 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, eric@transbay.net Subject: Berkeley BAFUG Meetings, Part II Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Transbay has been kind enought to offer us a space to meet in. Transbay is located in Berkeley at 2569 Telegraph Ave, between Blake and Parker. Our first meeting will be in March at 7:30pm till 10:00pm. As to the date, that is for you to deside. So what I am looking for a vote of what is the best date. The second Thursday of the month is out since that is the date of the San Francisco BAFUG. We really should only hold the meeting during the week. So, let the voting begin. I cast the first vote for the 4th Thursday of each month which means our first meeting will be on March 25th. The current vote count can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/BerkeleyBafugVote.html "The gong of fate sounds" Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 5 12:31:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25758 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:31:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25728 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:31:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00395; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:58:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd000357; Fri Feb 5 10:58:10 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA27449; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:57:58 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902051757.KAA27449@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of To: spork@super-g.com (spork) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:57:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jack@germanium.xtalwind.net, billf@chc-chimes.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "spork" at Feb 5, 99 00:32:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > And as someone with an address on 99% of all spamdiscs out there, I > concur. I also receive postmaster mail here, so I get even more... Here > we see about 60% of spam coming from the dialup ports of large providers. > Sending mail to their abuse departments does nothing. If it's a smaller > provider, I generally get a nice note back stating the account was > cancelled. I am not on most of the "spamdiscs"; I'm actually one of the few people to get off of Sanford Wallace's list before he sold them out. The reason is simple: if you realy SPAM to me, you will 99.9% of the time lose your relay. What this means is that it's not cost effective to SPAM me, and, in fact, damages the value of the list you have purchased by making you less able to use it. SPAMmers understand economics, even if the people who are supposedly trying to prevent SPAM apparently do not (or their soloutions would speak to the wallet, not the non-existant morality of the sender). > 1) large providers do not even give out static addresses > 2) smaller ones (like us) have those in a seperate block from the dynamic > pools, making it easy for someone to leave the static IPs alone. There's > also some sense in doing it by name. Blocking *.da.uu.net will not hurt > static IP customers. If you have a static IP, you are most likely going > to be named something.blah.com with no special naming convention that > identifies you as a dial access user. The smaller providers that give out statics exist because they simply have not grown to the point where they have exhausted their addrress space yet. Everyone eventually does and/or chooses to voluntarily limit the maximum size of their customer base. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 5 13:08:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02012 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:08:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0252.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.188.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01999 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:08:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@thelab.hub.org) Received: (from scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) id PAA07734 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:41:56 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:41:56 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker Message-Id: <199902051941.PAA07734@thelab.hub.org> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Sig from a student at the University... Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thought it was cute...:) ========================= Why are people so happy when things _work_ in Linux? With FreeBSD, that's just expected! ========================= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 5 14:21:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12214 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:21:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12202 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:21:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.47]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA337 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:21:06 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:29:52 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Hehe, confused soul? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org IRC has fun parts from time to time: Possem has joined #FreeBSD this is not a sex channel its a unix channel Possem has left #FreeBSD Guess he was thinking about Free Bondage, Sex and Masochism? LOL! --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 5 15:14:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17875 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:14:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17870 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:14:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.210.87]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990205231417.CIWW682101.mta1-rme@wocker>; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:14:17 +1300 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:14:32 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Hehe, confused soul? Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz CC: FreeBSD Chat In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990205231417.CIWW682101.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 5 Feb 99, at 23:29, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > IRC has fun parts from time to time: > > Possem has joined #FreeBSD > this is not a sex channel its a unix channel > Possem has left #FreeBSD > > Guess he was thinking about Free Bondage, Sex and Masochism? > > LOL! Actually possem is a she. Here's what she asked me in #wellington: [11:16] junkmale whats #FreeBSD???? sounds like some sex channel heheh [11:17] free body sexuall desire??? FreeBSD is an operating system. And you're not the first to think it's sex. some in the channel still do. Mention was made of people rooting systems. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 5 15:37:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20267 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:37:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20260 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:37:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15733; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:36:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:36:53 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199902052336.PAA15733@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of In-Reply-To: <199902051757.KAA27449.kithrup.freebsd.chat@usr05.primenet.com> References: from "spork" at Feb 5, 99 00:32:19 am Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <199902051757.KAA27449.kithrup.freebsd.chat@usr05.primenet.com> you write: >What this means is that it's not cost effective to SPAM me, and, >in fact, damages the value of the list you have purchased by making >you less able to use it. If the thieves actually thought, this would be true. However... we receive spam sent to rbl@maps.vix.com. Spammers send directly to paul@vix.com. Even Sanford Wallace (cyberpromo delenda est!) learned not to do that. You do not understand spammers, Terry. Most of them are ignorant; there's a lot of first-time abuse that stops. Of the rest, they are thieves. Many of them are attracted to the "something for nothing" idea; many of them use throw-away accounts, sending email to 100k to 4M addresses at a shot (yes, seriously -- I get to talk with AOL postmaster people periodically), at what is very close to free. Or is free in many cases -- many professional spammers commit credit card fraud in order to get a throw-away dialup account that will be used for about 10 hours, and then never used again. Trust me, Terry: if "cost effectiveness" entered into it, my system would receive *no* spam. And yet it does, and this has cost spammers hundreds of thousands of dollars. (One today claimed I had cost him seventy thousand dollars in sales since Wednesday.) Spam is theft. And thieves are stupid, immoral, and not to be tolerated. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 5 16:08:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25981 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:08:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25960 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:08:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.nws.net) Received: from pechter.nws.net (bg-tc-ppp211.monmouth.com [209.191.60.212]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA02426; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:08:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.nws.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) id TAA08010; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:06:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199902060006.TAA08010@pechter.nws.net> Subject: Re: Hehe, confused soul? In-Reply-To: from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai at "Feb 5, 1999 11:29:52 pm" To: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:06:02 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: pechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > IRC has fun parts from time to time: > > Possem has joined #FreeBSD > this is not a sex channel its a unix channel > Possem has left #FreeBSD > > Guess he was thinking about Free Bondage, Sex and Masochism? Point him to #microsoft. Oops... Oh, there's nothing FREE there, and the only one getting screwed is the customer. > --- > Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet > asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... > Network/Security Specialist > *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 5 16:12:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26387 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:12:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26374 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:12:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04327; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:11:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd004150; Fri Feb 5 17:11:51 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA18887; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:11:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902060011.RAA18887@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Hehe, confused soul? To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:11:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: asmodai@wxs.nl, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990205231417.CIWW682101.mta1-rme@wocker> from "Dan Langille" at Feb 6, 99 12:14:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > FreeBSD is an operating system. And you're not the first to > think it's sex. > some in the channel still do. > > Mention was made of people rooting systems. Quick, he's mounting a tape! Throw cold water on him! Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 5 16:33:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28850 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:33:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28843 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:33:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20749; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:33:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd020594; Fri Feb 5 17:33:39 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20089; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:33:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902060033.RAA20089@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ports/9864: make rblcheck use relay.orbs.org instead of To: sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:33:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902052336.PAA15733@kithrup.com> from "Sean Eric Fagan" at Feb 5, 99 03:36:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You do not understand spammers, Terry. > > Most of them are ignorant; there's a lot of first-time abuse that stops. The ignorant ones are not the problem. They SPAM from example, not frm malice. > Of the rest, they are thieves. Many of them are attracted to the > "something for nothing" idea; many of them use throw-away accounts, > sending email to 100k to 4M addresses at a shot (yes, seriously -- > get to talk with AOL postmaster people periodically), at what is > very close to free. And this is what you have to address. You either front-load the costs, or you institutionalize financial penalties. > Or is free in many cases -- many professional spammers commit credit > card fraud in order to get a throw-away dialup account that will be > used for about 10 hours, and then never used again. These guys are easy to deal with. Interstate wire fraud is 20 years, without parole, in a Federal prison. You only have to deal with each of these guys once every 20 years. Even if it's "just" credit card fraud, the penalties exceed the benefits, if the defrauding party is dilligently pursued. If not, well, you deserve to be used to send SPAM, and you desrve the listing you'll get in the RBL as a result. Oh well, so sad. > Trust me, Terry: if "cost effectiveness" entered into it, my system > would receive *no* spam. And yet it does, and this has cost spammers > hundreds of thousands of dollars. (One today claimed I had cost him > seventy thousand dollars in sales since Wednesday.) He's not going to SPAM you again, is he? > Spam is theft. And thieves are stupid, immoral, and not to be tolerated. Thieves aren't necessarily stupid. Do not underestimate your opponent. Many thieves make a conscious risk analysis before engaging in their trade. As an example, I had a CD changer stolen from me. The theft occurred when the risk to the thief was lowest. The thief took the gamble based on the cost/benefit and the reduced probability that he would be seen engaging in his trade. The thing about dealing with opportunistic thieves is that you have to identify and proactively remove opportunity to foil them. One way to do this would be a financial penalty associated with the act of violating the contract entered into between the provider and the customer-cum-SPAMmer sufficient that it was not worth going to that ISP, since throwing away a 'throw away" account would cost more than they were making from the deal. This is probably what should be in all AUP agreements before allowing people an account in the first place. Another way to do this would be to force domain registration before allowing mail in from the other end. This is slightly different than what DUL tries to do, since this would allow a dialup to send mail from a registered domain. The domain is mapped to the sender by a certificate authority. That's $70 for a two year lease on a domain, per SPAM sending session; ARIN and other authorities would also frown quickly on "domain churning", and start refusing new registration based on the persons real-world identity. The point is, Sanford Wallace was driven out of the business of engaging in theft of services, and other SPAMmers can be similarly driven out of business the same way. You can't argue with success. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 5 21:17:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25117 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:17:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25100; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:17:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-38.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.38]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA17563; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:17:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA78728; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:17:26 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199902060517.XAA78728@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Randall Senn cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: BSD? In-reply-to: Message from Randall Senn of "Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:29:24 PST." <19990206012924.18960.rocketmail@send204.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:17:25 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Randall Senn writes: > > Dear Sirs: > > Starting to look at your web site, I saw this snippet. > > FreeBSD is an advanced BSD UNIX operating system for "PC-compatible" > computers, developed and maintained by a large team of individuals. > > What does BSD stand for? It stands for something in a secret language that only members can know. It doesn't translate literally but its ok to tell you that BSD's translation is something between, "Formula-1 Racing Team", "Penguins are tasty snacks", and "We have a better sense of humor than Linux." :-) In short, to know what BSD really means you have to jump in and use it. Others have already provided the straight answer. There is an equal amount of truth to my answer too as these days BSD means a whole lot more than what the initials represent. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message