From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 13 0:25:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (grimreaper.grondar.za [196.7.18.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4370137B511 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 00:25:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02944; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:26:06 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200008130726.JAA02944@grimreaper.grondar.za> To: Warner Losh Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/gnu/usr.bin/perl Makefile References: <200008122023.OAA98798@harmony.village.org> In-Reply-To: <200008122023.OAA98798@harmony.village.org> ; from Warner Losh "Sat, 12 Aug 2000 14:23:25 CST." Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:26:06 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > : Spiffy. I'll add it to the list. > > OK. That tells me that it would be safe to change the install mode > from 0 (in my tree) to 511 so that the error message is actually seen > when people try to run the setuid perl scripts. Cool! M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 13 17:10:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC9937BFEA; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:10:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Received: from woodstock.monkey.net (d97.as15.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net [169.207.134.225]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.1) id TAA20297; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:10:24 -0500 Received: from pobox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by woodstock.monkey.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1591F1E7; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:10:43 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/16/1999 To: Warner Losh Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/gnu/usr.bin/perl Makefile In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:50:22 MDT." <200008130550.XAA06630@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:10:43 -0500 From: Jon Hamilton Message-Id: <20000814001043.1591F1E7@woodstock.monkey.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200008130550.XAA06630@harmony.village.org>, Warner Losh wrote: } In message <20000812220942.B77195@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: } : On Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 01:51:28PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: } : > : With this change, however, you probably don't want to use BUILD_SUIDPER } L } : > : as the tweakable knob as we would still be building it. Perhaps just } : > : 'SUIDPERL' would be a better option name, but that is another bikeshed } : > : that can be painted later. } : > } : > 'ENABLE_SUIDPERL' might be a better shade for that bikeshed. } : } : Why not put ``ENABLE_SUIDPERL="NO"'' in /etc/defautls/rc.conf. Then in } : /etc/rc, right after /usr is mounted, check the value of } : `ENABLE_SUIDPERL' and either "u+s" or "u-s" it. } } I'm not sure I like having setuid automatically enabling or disabling } at boot. Not to mention that /usr might be mounted read-only at boot time. -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Aug 13 17:13:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D741537B837; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19987; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:13:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA11013; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:12:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200008140012.SAA11013@harmony.village.org> To: Jon Hamilton Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/gnu/usr.bin/perl Makefile Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:10:43 CDT." <20000814001043.1591F1E7@woodstock.monkey.net> References: <20000814001043.1591F1E7@woodstock.monkey.net> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:12:46 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000814001043.1591F1E7@woodstock.monkey.net> Jon Hamilton writes: : Not to mention that /usr might be mounted read-only at boot time. Or even after boot time... We have a supported option that makes / ro after boot. /usr can live on / (and does in a lot of boxes). Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Aug 14 17:59:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gatekeeper.whistle.com (gatekeeper.whistle.com [207.76.204.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16ED437B9C1 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:59:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: from bubba.whistle.com (bubba.whistle.com [207.76.205.7]) by gatekeeper.whistle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08552; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA26865; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from archie) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <200008150059.RAA26865@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: Interface types defined in if_types.h In-Reply-To: <00Aug10.081900est.115209@border.alcanet.com.au> from Peter Jeremy at "Aug 10, 2000 08:18:58 am" To: Peter Jeremy Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter Jeremy writes: > /sys/net/if_types.h describes itself as: > * Interface types for benefit of parsing media address headers. > * This list is derived from the SNMP list of ifTypes, currently > * documented in RFC1573, now maintained as: > * > * ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/iana/assignments/smi-numbers > > The current version of smi-numbers lists 115 ifTypes that don't appear > in if_types.h (including l2vlan (135) for 802.1q). FreeBSD also > defines 4 types (IFT_GIF, IFT_PVC, IFT_FAITH and IFT_STF) that don't > match IANA assignments. Hmmm.. we can start by doing the obvious/uncontroversial stuff. That is, go ahead and import any new and non-conflicting types. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 15 4:18:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6D637BA89; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 04:18:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id EAA21365; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 04:18:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 04:18:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Peter Jeremy Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interface types defined in if_types.h In-Reply-To: <00Aug10.081900est.115209@border.alcanet.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Peter Jeremy wrote: > The current version of smi-numbers lists 115 ifTypes that don't appear > in if_types.h (including l2vlan (135) for 802.1q). FreeBSD also > defines 4 types (IFT_GIF, IFT_PVC, IFT_FAITH and IFT_STF) that don't > match IANA assignments. asmodai was going to look at this - I'm sure he'd appreciate your help (he's currently on holiday) You should discuss the GIF/etc issue with the KAME guys (e.g. snap-users@kame.net) since we need to stay in sync with them wherever possible. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 15 20:56:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E8237BA36 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:56:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e7G3uhD18755 for arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:56:43 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: would like to make cp_time a sysctl Message-ID: <20000815205643.M4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG One must use libkvm for reading cpu utilization, I'm going to make them available through sysctl. I would like to have a sysctl that returns a string of the cpu states: kern.cpustates.names: user nice sys intr idle kern.cpustates.values: values I'm open for alternative suggestions on how to do this. I've been told that netbsd has thier own way of doing it, I don't like it because they use SYSCTL_STRUCT which isn't very useful unless you can include the C headers to parse it. thanks, -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 15 21:41:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from alcanet.com.au (mail.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FC0F37B74E for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:41:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeremyp@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au) Received: by border.alcanet.com.au id <115253>; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:41:12 +1000 Content-return: prohibited Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:41:04 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: would like to make cp_time a sysctl In-reply-to: <20000815205643.M4854@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 08:56:43PM -0700 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mail-followup-to: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <00Aug16.144112est.115253@border.alcanet.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i References: <20000815205643.M4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2000-Aug-15 20:56:43 -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >I would like to have a sysctl that returns a string of the cpu states: >kern.cpustates.names: user nice sys intr idle >kern.cpustates.values: values I'd like a bit of clarification here. I presume you mean that kern.cpustates.names will return CTLTYPE_STRING with a value "user nice sys intr idle". Does the second line mean there will be a set of sysctls kern.cpustates.{user,nice,sys,intr,idle}, each returning a CTLTYPE_INT containing the relevant entry from cp_time[]? In this case, the kern.cpustates.names is not really necessary since a userland program can either search the namespace under kern.cpustates (see /usr/src/sbin/sysctl/sysctl.c:sysctl_all() for details) or just query the states in knows about (or wants information on). >I've been told that netbsd has thier own way of doing it, I don't >like it because they use SYSCTL_STRUCT which isn't very useful unless >you can include the C headers to parse it. There is lots of precedent for returning CTLTYPE_STRUCT in the FreeBSD kernel and I don't see any particular reason for not just copying what NetBSD have done. Why expend the extra effort of implementing the same functionality differently, just to be different? The other (slight) downsize is that your approach needs 5 system calls to return all the values, compared to one system call that returns 5 times as much data. My feeling is that your suggestion is slightly cleaner than using a CTLTYPE_STRUCT (though I'm not certain about kern.cpustates.names), but that is outweighed by the lack of compatibility with other implementations. Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Aug 15 21:52:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gateway.posi.net (c1096725-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com [24.20.139.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D681037B6C0 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:52:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@posi.net) Received: from localhost (kbyanc@localhost) by gateway.posi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA40788; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:59:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@posi.net) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:59:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Yancey To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: would like to make cp_time a sysctl In-Reply-To: <20000815205643.M4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > One must use libkvm for reading cpu utilization, I'm going to make > them available through sysctl. > > I would like to have a sysctl that returns a string of the cpu states: > kern.cpustates.names: user nice sys intr idle > kern.cpustates.values: values > > I'm open for alternative suggestions on how to do this. One oid per name? I.e. kern.cpustate.user = X, kern.cpustate.nice = Y... > > I've been told that netbsd has thier own way of doing it, I don't > like it because they use SYSCTL_STRUCT which isn't very useful unless > you can include the C headers to parse it. > The struct sure beats libkvm. :) In any event, one could always teach sysctl(8) about the type and it can display it suitable for humans and scripts. Kelly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 16 2:47:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from netplex.com.au (adsl-63-207-30-186.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.207.30.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF0337C084 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:46:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from netplex.com.au (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netplex.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA44281; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:46:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <200008160946.CAA44281@netplex.com.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Peter Jeremy Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: would like to make cp_time a sysctl In-Reply-To: <00Aug16.144112est.115253@border.alcanet.com.au> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:46:47 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2000-Aug-15 20:56:43 -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > >I would like to have a sysctl that returns a string of the cpu states: > >kern.cpustates.names: user nice sys intr idle > >kern.cpustates.values: values > > I'd like a bit of clarification here. I presume you mean that > kern.cpustates.names will return CTLTYPE_STRING with a value > "user nice sys intr idle". Does the second line mean there will > be a set of sysctls kern.cpustates.{user,nice,sys,intr,idle}, each > returning a CTLTYPE_INT containing the relevant entry from cp_time[]? > > In this case, the kern.cpustates.names is not really necessary since a > userland program can either search the namespace under kern.cpustates > (see /usr/src/sbin/sysctl/sysctl.c:sysctl_all() for details) or just > query the states in knows about (or wants information on). > > >I've been told that netbsd has thier own way of doing it, I don't > >like it because they use SYSCTL_STRUCT which isn't very useful unless > >you can include the C headers to parse it. > > There is lots of precedent for returning CTLTYPE_STRUCT in the FreeBSD > kernel and I don't see any particular reason for not just copying what > NetBSD have done. Why expend the extra effort of implementing the > same functionality differently, just to be different? > > The other (slight) downsize is that your approach needs 5 system calls > to return all the values, compared to one system call that returns > 5 times as much data. > > My feeling is that your suggestion is slightly cleaner than using a > CTLTYPE_STRUCT (though I'm not certain about kern.cpustates.names), > but that is outweighed by the lack of compatibility with other > implementations. On FreeBSD right now, we have a few structs: kern.clockrate: { hz = 100, tick = 10000, tickadj = 5, profhz = 1024, stathz = 128 } kern.boottime: { sec = 966386120, usec = 228217 } Tue Aug 15 17:35:20 2000 vm.loadavg: { 0.48 0.61 1.11 } machdep.consdev: { major = 12, minor = 255 } Since it is one sysctl vs five, and doing name2oid translation requires an *extra* syscall, I'd suggest NOT using OID_AUTO, and using a single struct and define the format strings for sysctl to "present" it to the user... > Peter Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 16 12:57:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from web4.allunix.com (cc598076-a.chmchl1.ca.home.com [24.11.229.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A637C37BB51; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:57:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david@allunix.com) Received: from windoze (dhcp4.allunix.com [192.168.0.6]) by web4.allunix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00267; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:09:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david@allunix.com) Message-ID: <200008161257240540.004B7EAE@web4.allunix.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.10.03.02 (3) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:57:24 -0700 From: "David DeTinne" To: freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_96645584441=_" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --=====_96645584441=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is the sparc port really dead? I have tried the other BSD's and from an average users standpoint FreeBSD= is the best (my opinion) If a developer needs a machine I will donate my IPX to get it going. I will even throw in $50.00 in the box to help, I wish I could give more. David DeTinne --=====_96645584441=_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Is the sparc port really dead?
 
I have tried the other BSD's and from an average users standpoint FreeBSD is the best
(my opinion)
 
If a developer needs a machine I will donate my IPX to get it going.
 
I will even throw in $50.00 in the box to help, I wish I could give more.
 
David DeTinne
--=====_96645584441=_-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 16 13: 8:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510F537BDC4; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:08:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.54.101] (helo=freebie.demon.nl) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.14 #2) id 13P9UP-0004sT-00; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 20:08:41 +0000 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.demon.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA01318; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:08:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:08:40 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: David DeTinne Cc: freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20000816220840.H1056@freebie.demon.nl> References: <200008161257240540.004B7EAE@web4.allunix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200008161257240540.004B7EAE@web4.allunix.com>; from david@allunix.com on Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 12:57:24PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 12:57:24PM -0700, David DeTinne wrote: > Is the sparc port really dead? > > I have tried the other BSD's and from an average users standpoint FreeBSD is the best > (my opinion) > > If a developer needs a machine I will donate my IPX to get it going. AFAIK the project SPARC port of FreeBSD was destined for UltraSPARCs only. But that is about all I have ever heard/seen about it. -- Wilko Bulte wilko@freebsd.org Arnhem, the Netherlands To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 16 13:52:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39DB037B88D; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:52:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA75428; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:51:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: "David DeTinne" Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:57:24 PDT." <200008161257240540.004B7EAE@web4.allunix.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:51:44 -0700 Message-ID: <75425.966459104@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Is the sparc port really dead? I'm not sure I'd say it was dead so much as lying deeply asleep, waiting for a kiss from a prince of programming. :-) In short, there are lots of SPARCs out there and lots of programmers out there. What we need now is one or more of those programmers to actually start the ball rolling and convince more hacking talent to join in, just as it happened with the Alpha port. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 16 13:54:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 083B637B577; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:54:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo [192.67.166.79]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02727; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:54:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:54:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: David DeTinne , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <75425.966459104@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan- what's the status of the BSDi merge && a sparc port? I sort of thought that something that works would then "just arrive"? On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Is the sparc port really dead? > > I'm not sure I'd say it was dead so much as lying deeply asleep, > waiting for a kiss from a prince of programming. :-) > > In short, there are lots of SPARCs out there and lots of programmers > out there. What we need now is one or more of those programmers to > actually start the ball rolling and convince more hacking talent to > join in, just as it happened with the Alpha port. > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 16 13:58:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A95437B577; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:58:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA75502; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:58:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , David DeTinne , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:54:10 PDT." Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:58:08 -0700 Message-ID: <75499.966459488@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Jordan- what's the status of the BSDi merge && a sparc port? I sort of though t > that something that works would then "just arrive"? You mean the BSD/OS merge? Well, people have taken on the SMPng bits and that project appears to be progressing nicely. Nobody has taken on the SPARC bits, however, and I can only point out that lack of reference SPARC bits from another BSD implementation has never been the problem here. We've had both NetBSD and OpenBSD to serve that purpose for a long time but nobody who actually wanted to do the work step forward and do it. You've been around this biz long enough to know that bits never "just arrive", they have to be carried in on a stretcher and sent straight to triage. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 16 14:31:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB79E37BED7; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:31:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo [192.67.166.79]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02863; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:30:59 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:30:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: David DeTinne , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <75499.966459488@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Jordan- what's the status of the BSDi merge && a sparc port? I sort of though > t > > that something that works would then "just arrive"? > > You mean the BSD/OS merge? Well, people have taken on the SMPng bits > and that project appears to be progressing nicely. Nobody has taken > on the SPARC bits, however, and I can only point out that lack of > reference SPARC bits from another BSD implementation has never been > the problem here. We've had both NetBSD and OpenBSD to serve that > purpose for a long time but nobody who actually wanted to do the work > step forward and do it. You've been around this biz long enough to > know that bits never "just arrive", they have to be carried in on a > stretcher and sent straight to triage. :) Well, since the SMP stuff seemed to have been assigned/self-assigned, I assumed that somebody else, like maybe Chris, would become the stretcher bearer to come in and bless FreeBSD with. I wasn't saying "arrived" as in "out of the ether comes protons...". I was saying arrived as in the majordomo tinkling a bell and announcing, "The countess BSDi/SPARC, with retinue" -matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 16 15:32: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.aracnet.com (mail2.aracnet.com [216.99.193.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 527DC37B593; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:31:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail2.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19370; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:31:44 -0700 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id PAA16308; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:31:41 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 15:31:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: David DeTinne , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <75425.966459104@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In short, there are lots of SPARCs out there and lots of programmers > out there. What we need now is one or more of those programmers to > actually start the ball rolling and convince more hacking talent to > join in, just as it happened with the Alpha port. And there are people like me who don't know enough to really program anything, but are willing to test what we can. When it gets here... :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Aug 16 22: 8:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5C237B879; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:08:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkim@taos.com) Received: from taos.com (user-2ived6i.dsl.mindspring.com [165.247.52.210]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA04459; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 01:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <399B72E6.5FCB509A@taos.com> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 01:06:46 -0400 From: Jung-uk Kim X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: ko MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Any plan for AMD x86-64 port? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, all. Is there anybody interested in AMD x86-64 architecture? I think we should take a look at this. http://www.x86-64.org/ - Jung-uk Kim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 17 7:35:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from alpha.netaccess.on.ca (alpha.netaccess.on.ca [199.243.225.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC60E37B647; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schizo.controlq.com (dial164.nas.net [207.176.144.164]) by alpha.netaccess.on.ca (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA24472; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:35:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert S. Sciuk" Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <20000816220840.H1056@freebie.demon.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Wilko Bulte wrote: > On Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 12:57:24PM -0700, David DeTinne wrote: > > Is the sparc port really dead? > > > > I have tried the other BSD's and from an average users standpoint FreeBSD is the best > > (my opinion) > > To play devil's advocate, briefly ... Perhaps we should examine just why FreeBSD is `best'. As I understand it, the limited architectures supported has maximized talent and effort into making the intel platform work REALLY well, added stability, content, performance and functionality. If FreeBSD migrates to additional architectures, how much of its `goodness' will translate directly to other platforms?? Moreover, how much future effort and talent will be diverted into porting efforts rather than single platform perfection?? One must always trade off optimal platform performance for the sake of portability! I'd love FreeBSD on Sparc, and PA-RISC for that matter -- just not at the expense of the single best Intel based OS I've yet to encounter!!! I am happy with OpenBSD and NetBSD (thought neither one is on PA-RISC yet). I look at the scalability efforts going on in the FreeBSD kernel as a case in point, removing the GBL and threading and wonder just how much of that will translate directly to other architectures?? Would this effort have started at all if the talented individuals working on it were busy porting to platform X?? No doubt at the end of this project, FreeBSD on Intel should beat the living pants off of NT and Linux on the scability side of the equation. Just food for thought. Cheers, Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 17 9:13:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A76737B72E for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA21690; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:13:01 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:13:01 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: would like to make cp_time a sysctl Message-ID: <20000817091301.A21673@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000815205643.M4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000815205643.M4854@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 08:56:43PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 08:56:43PM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > One must use libkvm for reading cpu utilization, I'm going to make > them available through sysctl. http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=18524 http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=16928 -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 17 10:27:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D55D737B6AC; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA78296; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:26:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , David DeTinne , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:30:59 PDT." Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:26:40 -0700 Message-ID: <78293.966533200@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, since the SMP stuff seemed to have been assigned/self-assigned, I > assumed that somebody else, like maybe Chris, would become the stretcher > bearer to come in and bless FreeBSD with. Ah. Well, there's sadly a limit to the number of such projects BSDi can be convinced into funding and for the time being, at least, SMPng is the limit. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 17 10:55:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 23F1B37B6E0 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6436 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2000 17:55:45 -0000 Received: from du151.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.151) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 17 Aug 2000 17:55:45 -0000 Message-ID: <399C270A.DCADA0DF@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:55:22 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Robert S. Sciuk" Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Robert S. Sciuk" wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Wilko Bulte wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 12:57:24PM -0700, David DeTinne wrote: > > > Is the sparc port really dead? > > > > > > I have tried the other BSD's and from an average users standpoint FreeBSD is the best > > > (my opinion) > > > > > To play devil's advocate, briefly ... > > Perhaps we should examine just why FreeBSD is `best'. As I understand it, > the limited architectures supported has maximized talent and effort into > making the intel platform work REALLY well, added stability, content, > performance and functionality. > > If FreeBSD migrates to additional architectures, how much of its > `goodness' will translate directly to other platforms?? Moreover, how > much future effort and talent will be diverted into porting efforts rather > than single platform perfection?? One must always trade off optimal > platform performance for the sake of portability! > > I'd love FreeBSD on Sparc, and PA-RISC for that matter -- just not at the > expense of the single best Intel based OS I've yet to encounter!!! I am > happy with OpenBSD and NetBSD (thought neither one is on PA-RISC yet). > > I look at the scalability efforts going on in the FreeBSD kernel as a case > in point, removing the GBL and threading and wonder just how much of that > will translate directly to other architectures?? Would this effort have > started at all if the talented individuals working on it were busy porting > to platform X?? No doubt at the end of this project, FreeBSD on Intel > should beat the living pants off of NT and Linux on the scability side of > the equation. > > Just food for thought. On the other hand, Unix has survived as long as it has because it has been portable across platforms. Platforms come and go, and an operating system tied to a single platform will go when that platform goes. IA-32 will not last forever. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 17 18:53:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.129.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D063B37BC9E; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A5B06E3ED5; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA07842; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:29:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAaFaOgp; Thu Aug 17 13:29:00 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA19336; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:30:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200008172030.NAA19336@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: your mail To: rob@controlq.com (Robert S. Sciuk) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:30:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Robert S. Sciuk" at Aug 17, 2000 10:35:33 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > On Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 12:57:24PM -0700, David DeTinne wrote: > > > Is the sparc port really dead? > > > > > > I have tried the other BSD's and from an average users > > > standpoint FreeBSD is the best (my opinion) > > To play devil's advocate, briefly ... > > Perhaps we should examine just why FreeBSD is `best'. As I understand it, > the limited architectures supported has maximized talent and effort into > making the intel platform work REALLY well, added stability, content, > performance and functionality. > > If FreeBSD migrates to additional architectures, how much of its > `goodness' will translate directly to other platforms?? Moreover, how > much future effort and talent will be diverted into porting efforts rather > than single platform perfection?? One must always trade off optimal > platform performance for the sake of portability! Doing a port to another architecture is pretty trivial. I had a Motorolla PowerStack system running a PPC port of FreeBSD up to single user mode back in 1997. It took less than two months, and the biggest obstacle was waiting for Motorolla to ship the PPCBug SDK and documentation to me (I had to pay for it twice, since they screwed up the first shipment). The biggest obstacle, historically, has been isolating the architecture dependent bits in the FreeBSD source tree. This has become much less of a problem, since the Alpha port has become mainstreamed, though there are still some pieces that depend on "alpha" vs. "!alpha", instad of on "ARCH", and there are not C versions of everything that could be C instead of assembly code. Going from another BSD to FreeBSD self-hosted on SPARC has got to be a damn sight easier than going from AIX to FreeBSD self-hosted on a PPC platform with PReP but not CHiRP support and a non-standard ias opposed to OpenBoot boot monitor. > I'd love FreeBSD on Sparc, and PA-RISC for that matter -- just not at the > expense of the single best Intel based OS I've yet to encounter!!! I am > happy with OpenBSD and NetBSD (thought neither one is on PA-RISC yet). PA-RISC is terribly dead, but since the MACH port and the OSKit work at the University of Utah, if you happened to have one of these things lying around, you could do the work, probably in a pretty short time frame, if you started with OSKit or another UNIX-like system as the base. The biggest barrier to PA-RISC is hardware documentation. > I look at the scalability efforts going on in the FreeBSD kernel as a case > in point, removing the GBL and threading and wonder just how much of that > will translate directly to other architectures?? A lot of it. > Would this effort have started at all if the talented individuals > working on it were busy porting to platform X?? Probably not; but you are incorrectly assuming that if work was expended on one, that it would not be expended on the other, since you appear to be assuming that it's the same people who would be doing the work. I rather seriously doubt that the set of SPARC-knowledgable people and the set of Intel MPSpec and APIC knowledgable people has a very large intersection. I could probably count the people who were _ever_ involved with FreeBSD that had this combination on both hands, with fingers left over. > No doubt at the end of this project, FreeBSD on Intel should beat > the living pants off of NT and Linux on the scability side of the > equation. Beating Linux performance is rather trivial. I have rather grave concerns about some of the technical approaches being pursued in this attempt, particularly as concerns use of kernel threads to dumb-down state machines to the point that linear thinkers can understand them. The SMP scaling strategy currently looks to be limited in value over 4 processors, which is supposedly an Intel limitation, but which others (e.g. Sequent) have demonstrated is really a limitation of the approach used to solve the problem. I actually rather doubt that it will beat NT performance, since free software projects appear to have a Roche limit over a certain level of complexity that prevents them from doing some things. It has been a tendancy of many commercial companies, fearing open source, to drive increasing complexity into IETF standards (IMO, without technical necessity) in order to protect their shrinking domain without having to actually confront the other commercial companies eating into their market. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 17 20:21:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from berserker.bsdi.com (berserker.twistedbit.com [199.79.183.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7024637B43E; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from berserker.bsdi.com (cp@LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by berserker.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19373; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:21:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200008180321.VAA19373@berserker.bsdi.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: rob@controlq.com (Robert S. Sciuk), freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail From: Chuck Paterson Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:21:09 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At the macro architectural level the approach being taken is not that unlike Solaris which has been shown to run acceptability with something greater than 4 processors. It is also true that until we get it up and stable and can work on those areas, such as the single scheduling lock, it is not going to scale above a smallish number of processors. It simply is not practical to do everything at once, debugging the simplified scheme is tough enough. Chuck } }I have rather grave concerns about some of the technical }approaches being pursued in this attempt, particularly as }concerns use of kernel threads to dumb-down state machines }to the point that linear thinkers can understand them. The }SMP scaling strategy currently looks to be limited in value }over 4 processors, which is supposedly an Intel limitation, }but which others (e.g. Sequent) have demonstrated is really }a limitation of the approach used to solve the problem. } }I actually rather doubt that it will beat NT performance, since }free software projects appear to have a Roche limit over a certain }level of complexity that prevents them from doing some things. It }has been a tendancy of many commercial companies, fearing open }source, to drive increasing complexity into IETF standards (IMO, }without technical necessity) in order to protect their shrinking }domain without having to actually confront the other commercial }companies eating into their market. } } } Terry Lambert } terry@lambert.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Aug 18 9: 6: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from daemon.sofiaonline.com (daemon.sofiaonline.com [212.5.144.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C1ECD37B43E for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 42712 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2000 16:04:53 -0000 Received: from carnivoro.sofiaonline.com (HELO sofiaonline.com) (212.5.144.5) by daemon.sofiaonline.com with SMTP; 18 Aug 2000 16:04:53 -0000 Message-ID: <399D3E08.66C26670@sofiaonline.com> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 16:45:44 +0300 From: Andrew Rousseff X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-ZETHIX i386) X-Accept-Language: en, bg MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org Subject: SIOCGHIWAT & co. ioctl's Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello there, While writing some code here, I noticed that ioct(SIOCGHIWAT) returns EOPNOTSUPP. Digging the kernel sources shows no code to handle these ioctl's. I would like to ask if there is any particular reason for this? Cheers, zethix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Aug 18 14: 1:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5291137B424 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA49330 for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:01:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:01:15 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20000818140115.G17746@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <399C270A.DCADA0DF@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <399C270A.DCADA0DF@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Thu, Aug 17, 2000 at 01:55:22PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I dread getting myself into this..., but I can put a few Sparc U1/170's into peoples hands, IFF they will acutally contribute to createing FreeBSD/sparc64. This DOES NOT mean just "testing", but actual loader, kernel, and libc porting (ie, CODING). If you feel you are one that getting one of these loaners would push the sparc64 porting effort forward, please email me. -- -- David (obrien@freebsd.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Aug 18 14: 5:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f124.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD8437B422; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:05:41 -0700 Received: from 146.186.228.165 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [146.186.228.165] From: "Harris Kauffman" To: arch@freebsd.org, sparc@freebsd.org Subject: O/S porting docs? Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:05:41 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2000 21:05:41.0825 (UTC) FILETIME=[114AA310:01C00958] Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The recent thread on the [somewhat-dead]sparc port has got me thinking. I would like to contribute, on a code level, to such a port. However I don't have the technical background. I am a computer science student, and my programming talents currently run more along the lines of application programming. So what I would like are pointers to * mailing lists * articles * books * websites or whatever other information you think would help me along the road to being able to contribute. I realize this is a rather long term learning process.. but I have plenty of free time. I also realize by the time I learn anything useful the port to sparc might be done.. but better late then never. Besides, there will always be more ports to work on... TIA, Harris ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Aug 19 12:15:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BFD37B422; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 12:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id VAA55942; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:15:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA43208; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:15:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:15:26 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: "Robert S. Sciuk" Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If FreeBSD migrates to additional architectures, how much of its > `goodness' will translate directly to other platforms?? Moreover, how > much future effort and talent will be diverted into porting efforts rather > than single platform perfection?? One must always trade off optimal > platform performance for the sake of portability! The issue here is also how many platforms, and what kind, you port to. Porting to the UltraSPARC is different from trying to backport to a 6502 with a ram extender. > I'd love FreeBSD on Sparc, and PA-RISC for that matter -- just not at the > expense of the single best Intel based OS I've yet to encounter!!! I am > happy with OpenBSD and NetBSD (thought neither one is on PA-RISC yet). Actually, I'd not mind regression on the Intel, if we gain more "high-end" platforms from it; such as UltraSPARC and Cray. > I look at the scalability efforts going on in the FreeBSD kernel as a case > in point, removing the GBL and threading and wonder just how much of that > will translate directly to other architectures?? Would this effort have SMPng work will, if I understand it correctly, benefit all architectures when committed to the tree. > started at all if the talented individuals working on it were busy porting > to platform X?? No doubt at the end of this project, FreeBSD on Intel Different individuals have different areas of competence. > should beat the living pants off of NT and Linux on the scability side of > the equation. And Linux would've won on portability. The Intel platform would seem to be dying, and we'd do well to port to better platforms. Our alpha code is ages cleaner than the x86 code, at least. Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Aug 19 12:39:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EDFF37B43F; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 12:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA87666; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 12:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: "Robert S. Sciuk" , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:15:26 +0200." Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 12:38:27 -0700 Message-ID: <87663.966713907@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The Intel platform would seem to be dying, and we'd do well to port to > better platforms. Our alpha code is ages cleaner than the x86 code, at > least. Heh. I'm not sure I'd share your conclusion that "The Intel platform is dying" given the extreme growth and increased competition I've been seeing in that marketplace; there are even x86 compatible chips which are beginning to compete with the StrongARM in terms of price and power consumption, and let's not forget our friends at Transmeta driving the next generation of flat panel "Internet computing slates". Nonetheless, there's been a lot of discussion about porting FreeBSD to other architectures lately and everyone seems to come around to the same question: "What can I do?" Porting to a new architecture is a pretty straight-forward process which involves getting gcc and the toolchain to support the new architecture (David O'Brien has imported partial support for a number of non-x86 architectures already so talk to him if you want to coordinate your efforts) so you can actually compile things. Then one should go after locore.s and friends and start researching some of the first necessary device drivers, those usually including the system console and serial port drivers, so that you can get to the all-important single user shell prompt milestone. At that point, other people will tend to see your efforts as being "real" enough to get seriously involved in rounding out the device driver support and work on the next milestone, which is multi-user mode. :) If you're truly serious about seeing FreeBSD on a new architecture, that's what needs to happen. Volunteering to be a tester or rock polisher is kinda gratuitous until one or more people are already engaged in the process of tackling the toolchain and kernel bootstrap code. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Aug 19 15: 6:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E66B37B42C; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 15:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [212.238.54.101] (helo=freebie.demon.nl) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.14 #2) id 13QGkc-0000F4-00; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 22:06:03 +0000 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.demon.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00621; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:06:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:06:04 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Marius Bendiksen , "Robert S. Sciuk" , freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20000820000603.A551@freebie.demon.nl> References: <87663.966713907@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <87663.966713907@localhost>; from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com on Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 12:38:27PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 12:38:27PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > The Intel platform would seem to be dying, and we'd do well to port to > > better platforms. Our alpha code is ages cleaner than the x86 code, at > > least. But not nearly as optimised IMO. Or well tested. Getting a truly good compiler for alpha is just one of these things (Linux has the edge here with the CPQ compiler bits). > Heh. I'm not sure I'd share your conclusion that "The Intel platform > is dying" given the extreme growth and increased competition I've been > seeing in that marketplace; there are even x86 compatible chips which > are beginning to compete with the StrongARM in terms of price and > power consumption, and let's not forget our friends at Transmeta > driving the next generation of flat panel "Internet computing slates". -- Wilko Bulte wilko@freebsd.org Arnhem, the Netherlands To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Aug 19 20: 3:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from darren2.lnk.telstra.net (darren2.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.53.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60E0C37B42C; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 20:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darren2.lnk.telstra.net (8.9.1/8.8.7) id DAA28108; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 03:03:45 GMT From: Darren Reed Message-Id: <200008200303.NAA06295@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Subject: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) To: jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 13:03:12 +1000 (EST) Cc: mjacob@feral.com, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Jordan- what's the status of the BSDi merge && a sparc port? I sort of > > thought that something that works would then "just arrive"? > > You mean the BSD/OS merge? Well, people have taken on the SMPng bits > and that project appears to be progressing nicely. Nobody has taken > on the SPARC bits, however, and I can only point out that lack of > reference SPARC bits from another BSD implementation has never been > the problem here. We've had both NetBSD and OpenBSD to serve that > purpose for a long time but nobody who actually wanted to do the work > step forward and do it. You've been around this biz long enough to > know that bits never "just arrive", they have to be carried in on a > stretcher and sent straight to triage. :) Jordan, I think the problem (now) is that the different in-kernel architectural changes by the BSD groups have created, essentially, code that is hard to just "copy". The time it is taking for cardbus to arrive in FreeBSD, when it is already available in NetBSD, is a good example of this. (This is/was Warner Losh's baby, or am I confused ?) I'm *really* disappointed that FreeBSD doesn't (yet ?) support cardbus in 4.x (-current?) :-( There is also the problem of increasing the already cumbersome animosity when one imports code from the other with little or no credit, etc, which I think sometimes leads to the above problem not being seen as a "problem" as it makes that step somewhat harder. (I'm not pointing fingers here, just merely calling it as I see it.) In short, what was able to be done with alpha for FreeBSD may not be as easy for sparc64, if at all possible. Given noises made earlier, I'm surprised there has not been any effort to merge, at least, the BSD/OS work... Darren --- NetBSD/sparc64 - self-hosting for the new millennium! Port Home page: - http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/sparc64/ Complete 64bit snapshots: - ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/arch/sparc64/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Aug 19 23: 8: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C49D637B422 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 23:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA47695; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:07:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA30636; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:06:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200008200606.AAA30636@harmony.village.org> To: Darren Reed Subject: Re: Integration of Net/OpenBSD code (was Re: your mail) Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Aug 2000 13:03:12 +1000." <200008200303.NAA06295@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> References: <200008200303.NAA06295@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:06:51 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200008200303.NAA06295@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Darren Reed writes: : code that is hard to just "copy". The time it is taking for cardbus : to arrive in FreeBSD, when it is already available in NetBSD, is a : good example of this. (This is/was Warner Losh's baby, or am I : confused ?) I'm *really* disappointed that FreeBSD doesn't (yet ?) : support cardbus in 4.x (-current?) :-( It has become hard to just copy code from one BSD to another. It would be fruitful to define a common BSD driver API that all the BSDs can implement to facilitate sharing. However, this is a big project that not too many people seem interested in doing. It was the philosophy beind the newconfig project's efforts. The newconfig folks have made noises about working on this, but so far I've not seen anything from anybody that would make things easier. On the time side, I've been busy with work and consulting that I've found it hard to find the time to contribute. The consulting side seems to be tapering off, so I should be able to spend more time on it. I've already got the sn probe routine being called on the card I chose to get NEWCARD working, and once newcard is done for 16bits, 32 bits shouldn't be too much longer (both because it has been done before, and because there are two alpha level cardbus efforts that I'm aware of). Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message