From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 19 4:30:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1E41D37B68A for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 04:30:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 22097 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2000 12:31:05 -0000 Received: from du102.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.102) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 19 Mar 2000 12:31:05 -0000 Message-ID: <38D4C858.8EDCD763@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 07:30:17 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" References: <4.2.2.20000317173928.040fec50@localhost> <4.2.2.20000317234800.03e7c380@localhost> <4.2.2.20000318180821.03e7d550@localhost> <4.2.2.20000318214408.03ef4f00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > True. But they still can't derive from header files or the OS > source. And they can't track the free compiler by looking at what's > been added; they must reimplement each new feature on their own. > This is redundant and wasteful. But the BSD compiler would still need to be implemented by someone, and that effort would be no less redundant and wasteful. At least vendors get paid to be redundant and wasteful. > I'm talking about adding value to the BSD-licensed code -- for > example, by adding optimization or speeding up compilation. I suspect that such changes would be either so small that it would be difficult to sell them, or so large that you might as well have written your own compiler from scratch. > That's not obsolete either. Many people ALWAYS WILL prefer to use > make and the editor of their choice. Of course. That's why I put "obsolete" in quotes. I doubt that these days, in the Windows world, there is a viable market for command-line-only tools. Borland did not sell their compiler minus the IDE even before they released it for free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 19 17: 3:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lancelot.cit.nepean.uws.edu.au (lancelot.cit.nepean.uws.edu.au [137.154.148.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17CA137B527 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 17:03:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dho@cit.nepean.uws.edu.au) Received: from oberon.cit.nepean.uws.edu.au (root@oberon.cit.nepean.uws.edu.au [137.154.148.13]) by lancelot.cit.nepean.uws.edu.au (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) with ESMTP id e2K13AT31649 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:03:10 +1100 (EST) Received: from arthur.cit.nepean.uws.edu.au (dho@arthur [137.154.149.4]) by oberon.cit.nepean.uws.edu.au with ESMTP id MAA01158 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:02:59 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (dho@localhost) by arthur.cit.nepean.uws.edu.au (/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12215 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:02:59 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: arthur.cit.nepean.uws.edu.au: dho owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:02:59 +1100 (EST) From: Danny Ho To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD is so good Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, -I have been using FreeBSD for 3 years and FreeBSD is very reliable. Compared to the different Operating System I have used such as Windows 3.11 Windows 95/98 Windows NT Server/Workstation BSDI Linux Macinstosh OS - Specially like how easy I can modfy the kernel, add /update software automatically with the power of ports etc - If ordinary users start using FreeBSD there will be "NO" need for support. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 0:14:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 927E537B974 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 00:14:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA95973; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:14:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Terry Lambert Cc: noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: <200003171545.IAA16366@usr06.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Mar 2000 09:14:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:45:48 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > The point is that, if a driver already exists in BSDI, and FreeBSD > becomes the public shadow of the BSDI source tree, there is very > little incentive to write a new driver among volunteers, because > the job has already been done, and there are interesting things to > write that haven't yet been done. Why would FreeBSD become the public shadow of the BSDI source tree? From what I've read about the merger, the reverse (BSDI becoming the commercial shadow of FreeBSD) is more likely. Let me spell it out for you: BSDI WILL NOT CONTROL FREEBSD. Nobody can take arbitrary control of FreeBSD. It's open source. Even if Jordan, David & co. were to "sell out" to BSDI today, they couldn't stop committers from finding another place to host the project and carry on with its development. The worst they can do is stop us from using the name. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 1: 7:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from manchaca.ece.utexas.edu (manchaca.ece.utexas.edu [128.83.59.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9204E37B803; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 01:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwu@aries.ece.utexas.edu) Received: from aries.ece.utexas.edu (mwu@aries.ece.utexas.edu [128.83.59.15]) by manchaca.ece.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA28432; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 03:07:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (mwu@localhost) by aries.ece.utexas.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id DAA18718; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 03:07:28 -0600 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 03:07:28 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Chin-yuan Wu To: nik@freebsd.org, vanilla@freebsd.org, foxfair@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Question about derivered version of FreeBSD (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 First of all, en.isoxxxx/books/handbook/l10n/chapter.sgml already mentions CFE and gives sufficient info. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nik Clayton" To: <"CN=Lawrence Cheung_2/OU=HKG/OU=COMP/O=PHILIPS@APAC"@unregistered.philips.com> Cc: Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 4:12 AM Subject: Re: Question about derivered version of FreeBSD | On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 05:47:01PM +0800, "CN=Lawrence Cheung_2/OU=HKG/OU=COMP/O=PHILIPS@APAC"@unregistered.philips.com wrote: | > A project called "CFE" (Chinese FreeBSD Extension) has been launched | > in taiwan user group. Another similar project come out from China Mainland. Both of these projects are simple shell scripts that only install various ports, KDE, Gnome, patch the kernel for 16-bit char support, setup .bashrc/.cshrc/.xsession/etc etc for the user. The security review is not done very well. They run on 3.4-stable. IMO, CFE and its simplified Chinese counterpart should not be part of the main distribution. We can provide a meta-/pseudo-port system, but that makes all of the -tw developers/committers' lives harder. I think that including CFE as part of the base system would get FreeBSD featured on bugtraq very often. This whole topic has been well discussed *extensively* on the -tw BSD USENET newsgroup and the -tw mailing lists. [It resulted in a flame war......] The general consensus was that it should at most be a part of the ports. | > AFAKI, I believe they will modify the "base system" code for Chinese | > support in C Lib level. In the homepage of "CFE" claims that it release | > with BSD license. The only "base system" that CFE ever modifies is the ufs/ffs/ part to include a hackish patch for 16-bit character. I do not recall seeing any efforts in the "modification of the C lib level". -TW simply does not have the resources to do so. Regarding the kernel patch for 16-bit, I will *attempt* to make a clean modification for FFS as my senior project. It should support unicode and arbitrary character sets. Hopefully, that would be enough to get us through the time until HPUFS comes into the base system. /me waits on Marius to speak up :P | > My question is: A modified version of FreeBSD can be called "FreeBSD" ? Can we simply just merge and absorb CFE? [We are the Borg.......] | That question is best addressed to core@freebsd.org. cc'd [I don't subscribe to -core though.] | However, I'm more interested in the modifications that you're planning on | making. Will you be feeding these back to the project as a whole, so that | (for example) a Spanish localisation could benefit from them? Much of the CFE is already in /usr/ports/chinese/*. -TW has an "outta-port" that provides beta-level ports for /usr/ports/chinese. However, I think that many i18n users would be happy to see that Keith Jang has successfully patched netscape's menu into Chinese. | We've got some docs about this, see http://www.FreeBSD.org/handbook/l10n.html Finally, an interesting fact of the day, Taiwan has a long standing Linux distribution/modification for Chinese users called CLE "Chinese Linux Extension". It predates CFE about a couple years. [CFE just got started around February, 2000.] Hence, there is concern that the name "CFE" is not too great, bla bla bla..... - -- ?????,?????? Strive for the very best; The outcome is not important. - -- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.2 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBONUPjo+pn6xwqVlNEQLnogCeIZxhZS2AlS2T+nd2ZxKs2/ZJhzMAn10g PycEjNO/mrgLZhardBnBF1Sf =CCUb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 7: 7:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E0D37B7FD for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 07:07:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A551D132; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:38:24 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38D637E0.B9ABBBBB@originative.co.uk> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:38:24 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Terry Lambert , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: <200003171545.IAA16366@usr06.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Terry Lambert writes: > > The point is that, if a driver already exists in BSDI, and FreeBSD > > becomes the public shadow of the BSDI source tree, there is very > > little incentive to write a new driver among volunteers, because > > the job has already been done, and there are interesting things to > > write that haven't yet been done. > > Why would FreeBSD become the public shadow of the BSDI source tree? > From what I've read about the merger, the reverse (BSDI becoming the > commercial shadow of FreeBSD) is more likely. > > Let me spell it out for you: BSDI WILL NOT CONTROL FREEBSD. > > Nobody can take arbitrary control of FreeBSD. It's open source. Even > if Jordan, David & co. were to "sell out" to BSDI today, they couldn't > stop committers from finding another place to host the project and > carry on with its development. The worst they can do is stop us from > using the name. Umm, that's more than a little ridiculous. Nobody can stop anyone taking the codebase and lauching another project. If "Jordan, David & co" stop you using the name then what you're doing is setting up a competing project not taking the project somewhere else. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 10:53:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C351337BD3D for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:49:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com ([216.88.157.130]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12872 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 05:16:17 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA00826; Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:17:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:17:22 -0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Joey Garcia , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: More BSD books (was: What result would *you* like from the merger?) Message-ID: <20000319151722.F391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <38CE713C.F1623E3E@nettaxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 10:13:56AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 15 March 2000 at 10:13:56 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Joey Garcia writes: >> I would like more books on FreeBSD and BSD/OS. > > So write one! OK, OK already. I have a book in the works with the provisional title "Advanced BSD System Administration". Note the exact wording of the title; it predates the merger. Any input on what you'd loke to see in the book is welcome. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 12:47: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53DF237CC35 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 12:23:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A711254D; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:22:36 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000319151722.F391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <38CE713C.F1623E3E@nettaxi.com> <20000319151722.F391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:05:34 +0100 To: Greg Lehey , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: More BSD books (was: What result would *you* like from the merger?) Cc: Joey Garcia , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:17 PM -0800 2000/3/19, Greg Lehey wrote: > Any input on what you'd loke to see in the book is welcome. Teach me everything I need to know. ;-) Better yet, teach me everything you know. ;-) ;-) Seriously, one thing I'd like to see is some real-world case studies of sites using BSD to provide high-quality/volume services, and the sorts of configuration and administration tasks that go into building a machine like that. For example, what all does it take to go from hardware-in-hand (and what hardware would that be, and more importantly *why*) to running as ftp.freesoftware.com? And what kind of administration tasks are involved in running the machine? Or what does it take to set up and administer cvsup.freebsd.org or ns.sol.net? ;-) In particular, if there were any things that were done to tune the configuration of the machine, I'd like to see a walk-through of those steps and why. Or, if you can't do real-world case studies like this, then how about talking to the appropriate people and generalizing this a bit -- like what do you need to know to properly administer one of the world's largest anonymous ftp servers, a heavily used cvsup server (including mirroring the sources, etc...), a heavily used Diablo news peering server, etc.... In particular, what are some of the nuances that an admin needs to know to tune his system for best performance (or perhaps any performance with that kind of traffic ;-) in these various environments, and how does BSD compare against other OSes in these same kinds of environments? Or maybe take the case of threading versus shared memory, and look in depth at how programs like INN, Diablo, and Cyclone are similar and how they are different in terms of the kinds of stress that they place on the OS, and what kinds of things could be done to optimize their performance? -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 14:27:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4884037B510 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:26:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: by super-g.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0B2E3B417; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:26:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EF1F8B416 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:26:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:26:51 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Netpliance I-Opener Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone bought one of these to run FreeBSD? See http://www.netpliance.com for pics and all, Slashdot for all the Linux folks getting all excited over it (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/03/11/1216231&mode=thread) and the page that started the whole thing: http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener If you've bought one, I'm curious about a few things: -what is the usb chipset? (is it supported?) -details on the 16M flashcard (bootable under FBSD?) I'm looking to set one up, but rather than throw a hard drive in it, just boot from flash and do everything else over nfs... Sorry if this is old news or if it's a raging topic elsewhere.. Thanks, Charles To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 14:29:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smart.visp-europe.psi.com (smart.visp-europe.psi.com [212.222.105.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907A937B9F9 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:29:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from ip11.berlin64.pub-ip.de.psi.net ([154.15.64.11] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by smart.visp-europe.psi.com with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 12XAfs-00050J-00; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:29:24 +0100 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id B7CC9111; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:57:04 +0100 (CET) To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More BSD books (was: What result would *you* like from the merger?) References: <38CE713C.F1623E3E@nettaxi.com> <20000319151722.F391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 20 Mar 2000 22:57:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:17:22 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 28 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes on freebsd-chat: > I have a book in the works with the provisional title "Advanced > BSD System Administration". Great; this sounds like a book I'd like to have. > Any input on what you'd loke to see in the book is welcome. Internet gateway with firewall. This is something I have done a few times (at home and for my previous and my current employer). Things like split DNS, IP filtering, NAT, mail relaying to an internal mail server, etc. were not easy when I did it the first time, and can probably be done better than I have done. (Of course I am willing to share my experiences.) Mail configuration. Not a rewrite of the bat book, but perhaps some sendmail examples (with pointers into the bat book, of course). Some information about other MTAs (Postfix, Exim, Qmail). Kernel configuration. Again, I have done this often, but I am sure that there is a lot more to learn. Differences between the BSDs. *Factual* differences, no flame bait. :-) -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 15: 0:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93ACE37BA8F for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:59:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12612; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:59:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000320155710.03e69cd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:58:32 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Greg Lehey , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: More BSD books (was: What result would *you* like from the merger?) Cc: Joey Garcia , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000319151722.F391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <38CE713C.F1623E3E@nettaxi.com> <20000319151722.F391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:05 PM 3/20/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > Seriously, one thing I'd like to see is some real-world case studies of sites using BSD to provide high-quality/volume services, and the sorts of configuration and administration tasks that go into building a machine like that. I'm setting up a session at the upcoming O'Reily conference which will contain three case studies like that. Not a book per se, but the proceedings will be a useful guide. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 15: 1:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.WorldMediaCo.com (mail.omaha.com [63.64.101.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68A637BA52 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:00:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jogorman@worldmediaco.com) Received: from elwood.net ([63.64.101.10]) by mail1.WorldMediaCo.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-55573U2500L250S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:27:23 -0600 Message-ID: <38D6ADD2.36E224B8@elwood.net> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:01:38 -0600 From: Jim X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juergen Nickelsen Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More BSD books (was: What result would *you* like from the merger?) References: <38CE713C.F1623E3E@nettaxi.com> <20000319151722.F391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Juergen Nickelsen wrote: > > > Any input on what you'd loke to see in the book is welcome. > > Mail configuration. Not a rewrite of the bat book, but perhaps some > sendmail examples (with pointers into the bat book, of course). Some > information about other MTAs (Postfix, Exim, Qmail). Now, this is just me, and I am no way thinking I know how to write a good book, or what it takes to make one good. I just read allot. I would think that information about setting up a MTA would not directly be relevant to a book on Advanced BSD administration. There are so many Unix books out there in the world that give a little bit of information about so many different topics that they can go into detail in none. Then there are others that directly talk about one subject, cover is completely and answer all your questions. My self, and this is strictly personal opinion, I prefer the second type. I would like to see a BSD admin book that goes into the hard-core details about the system, and only pertains to BSD. BSD kernal config, BSD performance tuning, BSD advanced networking (IPsec, IPv6, etc), BSD disk layout for best performance, BSD boot script tweaking, BSD upgrade processes, etc. Really, I think that anything not pertaining to BSD would be unneeded as there is more then likely many books that cover those same topics. The perfect BSD admin book would pick up where "the complete freebsd" leaves off, and go into great detail about BSD specific issues. Jim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 15:18:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from listsvr1.telepac.pt (mail6.telepac.pt [194.65.3.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067A837BF27 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:18:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jpedras@webvolution.net) Received: from manecao.tafkap.priv ([194.65.198.56]) by listsvr1.telepac.pt (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 evaluation license) with ESMTP id pt; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:21:01 +0000 Content-Length: 710 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000319151722.F391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:17:51 -0000 (GMT) Reply-To: Joao Pedras From: Joao Pedras To: Greg Lehey Subject: RE: More BSD books (was: What result would *you* like from the m Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org An already written chapter is the wonderful cvsup/make series written by Nik Clayton to the daemonnews. Something in that line... Greetings Greg Lehey wrote: > Any input on what you'd loke to see in the book is welcome. ^\ /^ O O ----------------------------------------o00-(_)-00o-------------------------- Under deadline pressure for the next week. If you want something, it can wait. Unless it's blind screaming paroxysmally hedonistic ... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- PGP key available upon request or may be cut at http://pedras.webvolution.net/pgpkey.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 17:31:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.on.home.com (ha1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com [24.2.9.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46DB37C13C for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:31:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from interlog.com ([24.65.50.161]) by mail.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <20000321013146.BLZQ1324.mail.rdc1.on.home.com@interlog.com>; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:31:46 -0800 Message-ID: <38D6CD58.7536157B@interlog.com> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:16:08 -0500 From: Paul Griffith Organization: CDG Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: spork Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Netpliance I-Opener References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org spork wrote: > > Anyone bought one of these to run FreeBSD? > > See http://www.netpliance.com for pics and all, Slashdot for all the Linux > folks getting all excited over it > (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/03/11/1216231&mode=thread) and the > page that started the whole thing: http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener > > If you've bought one, I'm curious about a few things: > > -what is the usb chipset? (is it supported?) > -details on the 16M flashcard (bootable under FBSD?) > > I'm looking to set one up, but rather than throw a hard drive in it, just > boot from flash and do everything else over nfs... > > Sorry if this is old news or if it's a raging topic elsewhere.. > > Thanks, > > Charles > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message see the following: http://www.netbsd.org/Changes/#iopener_booted_with_netbsd -- Paul Griffith paulg@interlog.com | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 18:43:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0191637B8F2 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 18:43:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([207.193.44.73]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FRR00ABQ3I26C@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:42:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01107; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:27:41 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:27:41 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: More BSD books (was: What result would *you* like from the merger?) In-reply-to: <20000319151722.F391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> To: Greg Lehey Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Joey Garcia , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 19 Mar 2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Wednesday, 15 March 2000 at 10:13:56 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >> Joey Garcia writes: >>> I would like more books on FreeBSD and BSD/OS. >> >> So write one! > >OK, OK already. I have a book in the works with the provisional title >"Advanced BSD System Administration". Note the exact wording of the >title; it predates the merger. > >Any input on what you'd loke to see in the book is welcome. Hmm... Perhaps a section on all the sysctl variables and when you would want to tune them. Perhaps a "Tunable Parameters" section. Under what conditions, for example, would you want to increase net.inet.tcp.recvspace? Also, maybe a section on kernel config parameters. For example, from 3.4-STABLE: # Options for the VM subsystem #options PQ_NOOPT # No coloring options PQ_LARGECACHE # color for 512k/16k cache #options PQ_HUGECACHE # color for 1024k/16k cache isn't exactly intuitive. Most admins make tuning changes under duress and either don't have the time or knowledge of C to prowl the sources. I would think that this kind of information would be beneficial and probably sell a number of books;) It would also have the side benefit of distinguishing FreeBSD from the other Open Source alternatives. (The AIX docs _still_ point admins back to the 4.4BSD SMM for file system details -- not Linux HowTos.) A discussion of kernel parameters that are beneficial in emulation would be helpful, but I think any specific detail would probably date the book. Maybe a SYSV vs BSD discussion, viz a viz IPC/shared memory, etc., would be helpful as well as living with FreeBSD in an IPX/token ring world (also dated) as such things still exist. Think in terms of the reasonably competent admin who is new to FreeBSD and isn't a kernel hacker or C wizard, and, probably, under the gun to solve a problem. Sorry, this is only a wish list of what I need now;) -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 20 21:59: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (pop3.islandtransit.org [208.240.196.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45CD737B90E for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:58:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chip.homenet [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.00) id A049231016C; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:01:45 -0800 From: Chip To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: More BSD books (was: What result would *you* like from the merger?) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:51:23 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] Content-Type: text/plain Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00032021594201.00342@chip.homenet> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I would like to see some in-depth trouble-shootng stuff. For example, printing, and specificly lpd problems. I know its supposed to 'just work' but sometimes it 'just don't'. Like, what to do if running lpd as root fails to start the lpdaemon. And examples of real world 'stuff' such as firewall rules for differant situations like allowing nothing in except http and ftp, or allowing nothing in at all. Anyway, I for one have a hard time learning anything from books. I seem to learn only from hands-on experiance with the help of someone showing and explaining to me what's going on. Maybe it's a learning disability, I don't know, but the man pages seem cryptic and almost useless to me most of the time. Sorry for the ranting, I had to get it off my chest, I'm a bit frustrated with lpd right now. ;-( Chip www.wiegand.org PS I hope you all don't get too offended by my aireing of my frustrations. I appologize to you all for it. On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, Jay Nelson wrote: > On Sun, 19 Mar 2000, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >On Wednesday, 15 March 2000 at 10:13:56 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >> Joey Garcia writes: > >>> I would like more books on FreeBSD and BSD/OS. > >> > >> So write one! > > > >OK, OK already. I have a book in the works with the provisional title > >"Advanced BSD System Administration". Note the exact wording of the > >title; it predates the merger. > > > >Any input on what you'd loke to see in the book is welcome. > > Hmm... Perhaps a section on all the sysctl variables and when you > would want to tune them. Perhaps a "Tunable Parameters" section. Under > what conditions, for example, would you want to increase > net.inet.tcp.recvspace? > > Also, maybe a section on kernel config parameters. For example, from > 3.4-STABLE: > > # Options for the VM subsystem > #options PQ_NOOPT # No coloring > options PQ_LARGECACHE # color for 512k/16k cache > #options PQ_HUGECACHE # color for 1024k/16k cache > > isn't exactly intuitive. Most admins make tuning changes under duress > and either don't have the time or knowledge of C to prowl the sources. > I would think that this kind of information would be beneficial and > probably sell a number of books;) It would also have the side benefit > of distinguishing FreeBSD from the other Open Source alternatives. > (The AIX docs _still_ point admins back to the 4.4BSD SMM for file > system details -- not Linux HowTos.) > > A discussion of kernel parameters that are beneficial in emulation > would be helpful, but I think any specific detail would probably date > the book. Maybe a SYSV vs BSD discussion, viz a viz IPC/shared memory, > etc., would be helpful as well as living with FreeBSD in an IPX/token > ring world (also dated) as such things still exist. > > Think in terms of the reasonably competent admin who is new to FreeBSD > and isn't a kernel hacker or C wizard, and, probably, under the gun > to solve a problem. > > Sorry, this is only a wish list of what I need now;) > > -- Jay > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 9:10:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EFAF37BC49 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:10:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA50200 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:10:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:10:17 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Headcount for Berkeley BAFUG Message-ID: <20000321091017.A50168@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday 6pm it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 9:57:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13E2337BBB4 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:57:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA13993 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:57:41 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000321184816.009fb320@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:53:53 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: E-Commerce and security Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! Got following issue: We have some course about E-Commerce this semester, and the professor is going to spend three full days on network technology and security, thus covering TCP/IP and Internet, and security seen as classic network security, and commercial securing mechanisms. I talked with him, as some detailed speeches aren't ready yet, and was told, that if I had some material to contribute, he'd gladly take a look at them. So, basically I am interested in detailed material/sources about the recent Yahoo/Amazon etc dos attack, seen from technical side, and general security spots and how to adress them. (As there are approx 150 students listening and the prof also runs a small company focusing on E-commerce services and solutions, the profile of FreeBSD would make it to a certain audience... hint,hint...) Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 10:12: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C0337BC27 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:12:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com ([216.88.157.130]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA14256; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 04:41:42 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00586; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:18:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:18:49 -0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Paul Richards Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Terry Lambert , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000320211849.B522@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <200003171545.IAA16366@usr06.primenet.com> <38D637E0.B9ABBBBB@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38D637E0.B9ABBBBB@originative.co.uk>; from paul@originative.co.uk on Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 02:38:24PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 20 March 2000 at 14:38:24 +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >> >> Terry Lambert writes: >>> The point is that, if a driver already exists in BSDI, and FreeBSD >>> becomes the public shadow of the BSDI source tree, there is very >>> little incentive to write a new driver among volunteers, because >>> the job has already been done, and there are interesting things to >>> write that haven't yet been done. >> >> Why would FreeBSD become the public shadow of the BSDI source tree? >> From what I've read about the merger, the reverse (BSDI becoming the >> commercial shadow of FreeBSD) is more likely. >> >> Let me spell it out for you: BSDI WILL NOT CONTROL FREEBSD. >> >> Nobody can take arbitrary control of FreeBSD. It's open source. Even >> if Jordan, David & co. were to "sell out" to BSDI today, they couldn't >> stop committers from finding another place to host the project and >> carry on with its development. The worst they can do is stop us from >> using the name. > > Umm, that's more than a little ridiculous. > > Nobody can stop anyone taking the codebase and lauching another project. > If "Jordan, David & co" stop you using the name then what you're doing > is setting up a competing project not taking the project somewhere else. I think this is a matter of definition. Do you consider the project to be the name, or the product? Recall that we have already gone through a number of names: UNIX, Berkeley UNIX, BSD UNIX, BSD, FreeBSD. There's a continuity of product from one to the next. Sure, I wouldn't want to drop the BSD name, but then I wasn't too happy when we had to drop the UNIX name, either. But we survived. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 10:57:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B65F37BA3C for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:57:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B4E41D131; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:57:03 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38D7C5FF.E407F830@originative.co.uk> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:57:03 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Terry Lambert , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? References: <200003171545.IAA16366@usr06.primenet.com> <38D637E0.B9ABBBBB@originative.co.uk> <20000320211849.B522@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Monday, 20 March 2000 at 14:38:24 +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >> > >> Terry Lambert writes: > >>> The point is that, if a driver already exists in BSDI, and FreeBSD > >>> becomes the public shadow of the BSDI source tree, there is very > >>> little incentive to write a new driver among volunteers, because > >>> the job has already been done, and there are interesting things to > >>> write that haven't yet been done. > >> > >> Why would FreeBSD become the public shadow of the BSDI source tree? > >> From what I've read about the merger, the reverse (BSDI becoming the > >> commercial shadow of FreeBSD) is more likely. > >> > >> Let me spell it out for you: BSDI WILL NOT CONTROL FREEBSD. > >> > >> Nobody can take arbitrary control of FreeBSD. It's open source. Even > >> if Jordan, David & co. were to "sell out" to BSDI today, they couldn't > >> stop committers from finding another place to host the project and > >> carry on with its development. The worst they can do is stop us from > >> using the name. > > > > Umm, that's more than a little ridiculous. > > > > Nobody can stop anyone taking the codebase and lauching another project. > > If "Jordan, David & co" stop you using the name then what you're doing > > is setting up a competing project not taking the project somewhere else. > > I think this is a matter of definition. Do you consider the project > to be the name, or the product? Recall that we have already gone > through a number of names: UNIX, Berkeley UNIX, BSD UNIX, BSD, > FreeBSD. There's a continuity of product from one to the next. Sure, > I wouldn't want to drop the BSD name, but then I wasn't too happy when > we had to drop the UNIX name, either. But we survived. Who do you mean by "we". The only name change that FreeBSD has gone through was from "386BSD 0.1 Interim" to FreeBSD, which is actually a good example in that the name change also resulted in a new project since it was essentially a split from 386BSD in the same way that NetBSD was. Maybe some definitions would be useful. The project is neither the name nor the product. The name could be changed, if the project felt we should rebrand, and maybe it will following the merger, perhaps it will be BSD 5.0. We could also change the product, say we decided that BSD/OS was much better and we should just throw FreeBSD's code base away and use that instead. Even both might be appropriate and the project just works on BSD/OS and calls it BSD 5.0. All the above would still take place within the project structure, with the core team having executive control and the usual hierarchical peer structure within the developer community. If you split from the project structure though then you are forming a new project. If you disagree with core's decisions and take the code, and even many of the developers and go off and do your own thing then that is a project split. You are forced to change the name of your product because the core team/foundation own it but it is not the name that is relevant, it is the setting up of a competing project structure. This is just like OpenBSD splitting from NetBSD. Effectively, the foundation will own FreeBSD. Even if every member of the project decided to take the project somewhere else we would still be splitting from FreeBSD because FreeBSD is by definition the project that the foundation owns. The foundation would then recruit new developers and carry on as FreeBSD without all the existing members who would then be part of some other project. It's would be a classic 386/Net/Free/Open BSD project split, no different in any extent than any of the others that have preceded it. There is of course nothing to stop this happening other than a desire on the part of FreeBSD developers to avoid fragmentation of the BSD movement but it is somewhat inevitable if a sizeable group of developers are unhappy with the decisions being made by the project leadership, that fact is down to human nature and particularly hacker nature, since we all like to hack code the way we enjoy and if that doesn't fit in we are likely to go off and do it ourselves anyway. The art of good project leadership is to avoid this happening by being accomodating and flexible and keeping everyone happy within the project community. If the leadership is overbearing in its control then there's a high chance that members will desire to do things their own way and split. These same developers may have "their own way" of running projects or businesses so their decision to split is just as likely to be for project management reasons as it is for technical ones, possibly even more so since good developers generally can agree to much more easily what is technically correct than they can agree on how a business/project should be run. The trademark dispute has a high chance of being a catalyst in a split since those who are more business minded will find it hard to accept any bias in its usage. I think the foundation/core team should be careful to avoid that situation since as Terry says, the name is nothing at the end of the day and successfull marketing will be the key to any projects success. We would all be better off if the marketing could be shared by a large association of FreeBSD users rather than diluted by fragmentation into separate projects. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 11:13:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D968737BC0E for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:13:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA15939; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:12:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAGjai6E; Tue Mar 21 12:12:34 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02060; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:12:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003211912.MAA02060@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:12:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), j_mckitrick@bigfoot.com (J McKitrick), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 18, 2000 10:13:42 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > However, I think you left out something else (I'm not being > categorical on this, since I'm not in the computer business): as > I understand it, the great majority of software engineers (I once > heard a figure of 90%, at least in India) are into custom-written > software, not packaged stuff like Oracle. The software firms are > contracted by companies to write this, and it is not distributed > but used only under the company's own roof for its own purposes. > In that case the licence is really irrelevant; the GPL doesn't > force anyone to redistribute the code. If I, as an employee or former employee, who has used the software, demand source code, it must be given to me, up to two years since my last use of the software. > Another money-making scheme, directly off the GPL, is what Peter > Deutsch did for Ghostscript (though this is not something > Stallman approved of): he has three licensing schemes, the GPL > for year-old software, a very restrictive "free licence" for the > latest version, and a commercial licence. This only works if all code submitted back is signed over to the project, so that it can be licensed under the rights. Otherwise, the license which must be used on the integrated code is the license from which the derivative work was prepared. If someone used the restricted Free licensed version to prepare patches, unless rights to those patches are signed back over to Peter, then he can only distribute them under the license that they were derived under. > The interview says that he made enough money to retire on. But > I'm not very clear what advantage Deutsch would have gained if he > had chosen the BSD licence for Ghostscript. Certainly, the general business distaste for using the GPL on their own intellectual property contributed to his ability to make money. That's really not the point. The point is the logical economic situation, should all code become GPL'ed code. > My intent is not to start a GPL/BSD flamewar. I'm only saying the > GPL thing is not as black as it is painted out to be. Also, it's > not only software, but in the age of quick and easy digital > copying, the whole copyright scheme has to be rethought. I agree that intellectual property law needs to change; however, I do not agree with Stallman that the idea of intellectual property as institutionalised in law should therefore be abolished. > The current situation, of further and stricter controls on digital > copying being introduced every year, will work only in a police > state. This is more a RIA thing than anything else. It's driven by the recording industry, who have little understanding for technology (witness the fact that an image copy of any "encrypted" DVD will work just as well as the original). > Stallman's ideas are one possible answer for software, > which few people will accept, but his vocalness means people at > least start thinking about the issue instead of pretending it > doesn't exist. For music/creative writing/etc, Stallman himself > agrees that a GPL-style copyleft would not be a good idea. We can think about the answer, but we must remember that the intent of Copyright and Patent law, at least in the U.S., was to promote progress in the arts and sciences by securing rights for authors and inventors. Most of the recent changes in U.S. patent law have been driven by W.I.P.O.; for example, the change in patents from "14 years from date of issue" to "20 years from date of filing" was driven by an E.U. desire to get rid of the possibility of "submerged patents". Software should have seperate rules from the rest of Copyright and Patent law, but so long as there is a visable lunitic fringe that corrects "we need copyright and patent reform in software" by saying "what he really means is that we need to abolish copyright and patent protection for software", no progress will be possible. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 11:17: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECFA937BAE9 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:16:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA16340; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:16:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAgQayTF; Tue Mar 21 12:16:34 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02175; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:16:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003211916.MAA02175@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:16:39 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000317234800.03e7c380@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 17, 2000 11:58:10 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > ... To avoid the collateral damage done by the GPL ... [ ... ] > The fact that GCC does not have BSD-licensed competition is one > of the main reasons that there are few decent alternatives left > for non-Microsoft platforms. TenDRA. You should make it do linker sets, and then we can compile FreeBSD with it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 11:20:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E0937BD5F; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:20:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA35468; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:20:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:20:44 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Olaf Hoyer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: E-Commerce and security In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000321184816.009fb320@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Olaf Hoyer wrote: > So, basically I am interested in detailed material/sources about the recent > Yahoo/Amazon etc dos attack, seen from technical side, and general security > spots and how to adress them. See the bugtraq archives or the www.securityfocus.com library for some analyses of the off-the-shelf DDoS tools out there. There's really nothing interesting or sophisticated about their effects - the design of the tools themselves and how they can and cannot be stopped is more interesting. I guess the most important point to make about security is to make sure you know what you're doing - don't just leave it at the "well, it's working" stage, or be satisfied if some junior systems guy takes a pass over your webserver. *So many* e-commerce sites out there are insecure, usually because of unaudited systems and poor default settings, or lack of understanding of the technology and how not to use it, and it's putting their business, and their customer's money, at risk. The crypto-gram newsletters (www.counterpane.com) and the RISKS digests (http://www.CSL.sri.com/risksinfo.html) are good general resources for the kinds of security pitfalls people make (the former is more focussed on cryptography, as the name suggests). Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 11:30:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B038D37BCF1 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:30:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA26822; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:30:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAABEa4WZ; Tue Mar 21 12:29:43 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02448; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:25:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003211925.MAA02448@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:25:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 19, 2000 04:29:39 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Dunno about lawyers but the GPL nowhere insists that you must > redistribute -- only that if you do so, it must be under the GPL. It is my understanding that IBM bought Whistle instead of Cobalt because of fears of the GPL resulting in dillution of their patent portfolio. > More recently, Hans Reiser makes it clear that he plans to > dual-license ReiserFS in some way, GPL for linux and commercial > licence for commercial vendors who may be interested, I think he > too plans to control the copyrights to all contributions in some > way. I think he is going to have a hard time with this, considering that his code utilizes the USL Delayed Ordered Writes patent, without license. This is like "Lesstif", which used the Motif header files and so on; it is my opinion that if Lesstif ever posed a revenue threat to OSF, that they would be well within their rights to stop it dead. The US 5th Circuit court of appeals has binding case law on the subject of "deep reverse engineering". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 11:33:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A49C437BF95 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:32:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA22768; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:32:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAEpaazS; Tue Mar 21 12:32:34 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02804; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:32:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003211932.MAA02804@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:32:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kris@hiwaay.net (Kris Kirby), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 19, 2000 09:28:45 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Dual licensing doesn't work. Reiser will be caught in the same > > > trap as Deutsch. > > > > I'm really not trying to start a flame-war, but do you have a URL on this > > one? I'd be interested to know the particulars of the deal. > > http://devlinux.com/projects/reiserfs/13_1.html http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05642501__ http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05666532__ Realize that these are issue dates, and that filing dates go significantly further back. | A computer system having data organized in files, having a secondary | storage for storing files, having a primary storage, and having one or | more types of file subsystems (file system implementations) for | controlling transfer of files between primary storage and secondary | storage. A subset of writes to secondary storage are performed using a | Delayed Ordered Write (DOW) subsystem, which makes it possible for | any file system to control the order in which modifications are | propagated to disk. See also the prior art, dating back to 1992. You thought the USL vs. BSDI lawsuit was bad, with 20 year old already-disclosed "Trade Secrets"... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 12:12: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1828137BEA1 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:12:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 27807 invoked by uid 211); 21 Mar 2000 20:11:32 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 21 Mar 2000 20:11:32 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:41:32 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003211925.MAA02448@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Dunno about lawyers but the GPL nowhere insists that you must > > redistribute -- only that if you do so, it must be under the GPL. > > It is my understanding that IBM bought Whistle instead of Cobalt > because of fears of the GPL resulting in dillution of their > patent portfolio. That may be true but we were talking of the claim that if A gives software to B under the GPL, A must also give the software to anyone else who asks for it. That is not true. However, as you say, anyone who receives the binaries can demand the source code. And nothing stops employees of B with access to the code from redistributing it if they choose to. So yes, IBM may have been worried about leakage of their IP, and moreover they wouldn't have wanted to mix GPL'd code with their own. > > More recently, Hans Reiser makes it clear that he plans to > > dual-license ReiserFS in some way, GPL for linux and commercial > > licence for commercial vendors who may be interested, I think he > > I think he is going to have a hard time with this, considering > that his code utilizes the USL Delayed Ordered Writes patent, > without license. > > This is like "Lesstif", which used the Motif header files and so > on; it is my opinion that if Lesstif ever posed a revenue threat > to OSF, that they would be well within their rights to stop it That's interesting to know, and it will also be interesting to see whether such problems or litigation do arise in the near future, given the platitudes everyone's now heaping on the merits of the "open source movement". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 12:50:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 27A0537BD00 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:50:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 28000 invoked by uid 211); 21 Mar 2000 20:50:30 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 21 Mar 2000 20:50:30 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:20:30 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: J McKitrick , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003211912.MAA02060@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > GPL thing is not as black as it is painted out to be. Also, it's > > not only software, but in the age of quick and easy digital > > copying, the whole copyright scheme has to be rethought. > > I agree that intellectual property law needs to change; however, > I do not agree with Stallman that the idea of intellectual > property as institutionalised in law should therefore be abolished. > > > The current situation, of further and stricter controls on digital > > copying being introduced every year, will work only in a police > > state. > > This is more a RIA thing than anything else. It's driven by the > recording industry, who have little understanding for technology > (witness the fact that an image copy of any "encrypted" DVD will > work just as well as the original). Exactly. But who's making these points out loud? I see hardly any mention of the case at all in the general press, and most of that is either RIAA/MPAA sympathetic or grossly misinformed; and the few intelligent comments generally come from the "linux community". The BSD crowd may be "balanced" but change requires some level of activism, which I feel RMS, ESR et al are much better at doing. In fact, if anyone in the general public is aware of free software as an option, it is because of these loudmouths; and if sufficient informed opinion is to be built that the MPAA, RIAA etc start to see reality, or copyright/patent/IP laws get to be reconsidered, much more work is needed. I really don't see the more mature and seasoned BSD crowd talking about it at all. But perhaps it's just that they don't manage to get quoted in the mainstream media. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 13:23:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7CEA37BCBE for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:23:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27760; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:22:25 -0800 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:22:25 -0800 From: Arun Sharma To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <20000321132225.A27738@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <200003211925.MAA02448@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Rahul Siddharthan on Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 01:41:32AM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 01:41:32AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Dunno about lawyers but the GPL nowhere insists that you must > > > redistribute -- only that if you do so, it must be under the GPL. > > > > It is my understanding that IBM bought Whistle instead of Cobalt > > because of fears of the GPL resulting in dillution of their > > patent portfolio. > > That may be true but we were talking of the claim that if A gives > software to B under the GPL, A must also give the software to > anyone else who asks for it. That is not true. As I said earlier, I'm no lawyer. But this is what I heard from lawyers. Perhaps, smaller companies may be doing this, because they don't have much to lose. The ones with deeper pockets are careful not to get into this territory. Are you sure that Cygnus does this ? A common trick is to send employees of company A to work as contractors in company B. This does not trigger GPL. The key issue is - defining "Redistribution". GPL doesn't seem to do it well. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 15:36:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F4F37B91C for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:36:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19060; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:35:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA6RaG_K; Tue Mar 21 16:35:26 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12853; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:36:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003212336.QAA12853@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:36:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), j_mckitrick@bigfoot.com (J McKitrick), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 22, 2000 02:20:30 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > The current situation, of further and stricter controls on digital > > > copying being introduced every year, will work only in a police > > > state. > > > > This is more a RIA thing than anything else. It's driven by the > > recording industry, who have little understanding for technology > > (witness the fact that an image copy of any "encrypted" DVD will > > work just as well as the original). > > > Exactly. But who's making these points out loud? All of the MP3 folks. The Video game console emulation software companies. Some of the home-grown DVD software folks, though no one have been brave (stupid?) enough to volunteer as a lightning rod by integrating a complete and usable package, at least that I know of. > I see hardly any mention of the case at all in the general press, > and most of that is either RIAA/MPAA sympathetic or grossly > misinformed; Well, Time-Warner and the othr media giants believe that they have a lot to lose. The point of the DVD encryption was really to enforce region encoding and to balkanize the market so that the Taiwan/Hong Kong/etc. piracy rings would have to do a bit of work in order to damage the profitability, and that is really more of a time-to-market latency than it is a sinecure. As far as RIA(A) is concerned, the issue is whether recording artists or the recording industry is going to control the sale and distribution of recordings. You could argue that every band releasing MP3s is making a statement. You could also argue for publishing that Stephan King's latest venture is making a statement. > and the few intelligent comments generally come from the "linux > community". The BSD crowd may be "balanced" but change requires > some level of activism, which I feel RMS, ESR et al are much > better at doing. No; they just have the spotlight for the moment, and their 18 minutes may be coming to a close (see the recent ZDNN article, entitled "Linux vs. Linux"). > In fact, if anyone in the general public is > aware of free software as an option, it is because of these > loudmouths; and if sufficient informed opinion is to be built > that the MPAA, RIAA etc start to see reality, or > copyright/patent/IP laws get to be reconsidered, much more work > is needed. MPAA and RIAA have already won, if you look at it this way: you have allowed them to subborn the idea that their product is "software". This is tantamount to seeing a tabloid claiming "Bill Clinton meets with space aliens!"; the gut reaction is to deny the meeting, with an implied acceptance of the idea that "there are space aliens, they're just not interested in talking to Bill". > I really don't see the more mature and seasoned BSD > crowd talking about it at all. But perhaps it's just that they > don't manage to get quoted in the mainstream media. MPAA and RIAA _are_ the mainstream media, and software, at least how computer people define it, needs to be seperately recategorized. Maybe it's time for a new license, which people can get behind, and which can serve as a model for new law. One of the problems with dropping code into the public domain after an escrow period is there needs to be some tort reform along the lines of the public indemnifying the author against causes of action. The GPL people wouldn't get behind this because there's not an escrow repository for the code, and because public domain code is not "protected" from being "enslaved" by "greedy capitolists". Without such a model, I don't see things changing for software any time soon. The problem is that the most vocal advocates of free software don't want it truly free: they want it to have liberty, but not freedom. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 15:52:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D40E937B91C for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:52:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA01342; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:52:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA7zaWmc; Tue Mar 21 16:51:40 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA13462; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:51:40 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003212351.QAA13462@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:51:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 22, 2000 01:41:32 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > That's interesting to know, and it will also be interesting to > see whether such problems or litigation do arise in the near > future, given the platitudes everyone's now heaping on the merits > of the "open source movement". People who have read an abstract of Raymond's "The Cathedral And th Bazaar" are writing most of the articles. They haven't read the full text, nor do they credit the person at The Foresight Institue who coined the term "Open Source" in the first place. I think that if a professional software company were to do a formal code review on "fetchmail", the case-study basis for Raymond's paper, and publish the results, the entire Open Source movement might very well falter as "an obviously bad idea, in retrospect". The press is already starting to back up on the idea of Linux (right or wrong); see: I think litigation is only going to be an issue when Open Source becomes more than a paper-dragon threat to commercial enterprises; right now they only see it as a threat on their intellectual property portfolios, if not held at arms length, like a dead skunk, and as a means of tricking the mainstream press into publishing their press releases. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 18: 8:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E45B37BD7C for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:08:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA08102 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:08:45 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:08:45 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: phone numbers in fortune(6) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org fortune(6) has an entry "For a good time, call (415) xxx-xxxx". The number listed would be a fax machine in the Office of the Chancellor at UCB, except Berkeley is no longer in 415, but 510. It's quite likely that the 415 number belongs to some actual human being, so it might not be out of line to fix this. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 18:36:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from katroo.Sendmail.COM (katroo.Sendmail.COM [209.246.26.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B6937BF5A for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:36:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@sendmail.com) Received: from hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM (hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM [10.210.100.101]) by katroo.Sendmail.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24634; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA67084; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:36:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:36:28 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: phone numbers in fortune(6) Message-ID: <20000321183628.A67061@hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM> Reply-To: jgrosch@sendmail.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 08:08:45PM -0600, David Scheidt wrote: > fortune(6) has an entry "For a good time, call (415) xxx-xxxx". The number > listed would be a fax machine in the Office of the Chancellor at UCB, except > Berkeley is no longer in 415, but 510. It's quite likely that the 415 > number belongs to some actual human being, so it might not be out of line to > fix this. Yes, dialing this number gets you the answering machine of some guy in San Francisco named John. Lets give this guy a break and change this number to (510) 642-3175 ;-) Josef P.S. http://www.uga.berkeley.edu/ouars/level_3/contact.html -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@Sendmail.COM | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 21: 5:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC7C37BFDD for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:05:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00227; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:04:39 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000321220136.04176900@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:04:35 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003211916.MAA02175@usr06.primenet.com> References: <4.2.2.20000317234800.03e7c380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:16 PM 3/21/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >TenDRA. You should make it do linker sets, and then we can compile >FreeBSD with it. I have no idea what sort of shape TenDRA is in. As I understand it, it was the product of a research project which stopped after the initial proof of concept and before the compiler produced well-optimized code.... It might require quite a bit of work to become competitive. I'd want to work with a team on this. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 21:14:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D580737BCD7 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:14:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00331; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:14:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000321220638.0412fd50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:13:58 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: J McKitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200003211912.MAA02060@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:50 PM 3/21/2000 , Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Exactly. But who's making these points out loud? I see hardly any >mention of the case at all in the general press, and most of that >is either RIAA/MPAA sympathetic or grossly misinformed; and the >few intelligent comments generally come from the "linux >community". The BSD crowd may be "balanced" but change requires >some level of activism, which I feel RMS, ESR et al are much >better at doing. In fact, if anyone in the general public is >aware of free software as an option, it is because of these >loudmouths; I have long advocated the development of some "loudmouths" in the BSD community. They should be more SENSIBLE "loudmouths" than RMS or ESR, but they should be there and should be vocal. Unfortunately, there are some key people in the BSD crowd -- JKH in particular -- who seem to oppose any sort of strident advocacy. I agree with Jordan on other matters, but think he is very much mistaken about this. So, I've taken matters into my own hands somewhat. For instance, by getting BSD a track at the O'Reilly Conference and by kicking off some projects which I am not at liberty to discuss yet. I think in the end even JKH will agree that the things I'm doing are good. (In fact, as a key player in BSD, Inc., he may actually benefit more than me from them monetarily. Which is fine; he's devoted far more of his life to BSD UNIX than I have so far.) Ultimately, I think time will bear out my convictions. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 21:20:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E72A37C055 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:20:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00386; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:19:39 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000321221834.041727c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:19:37 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003212351.QAA13462@usr08.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:51 PM 3/21/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >People who have read an abstract of Raymond's "The Cathedral And >th Bazaar" are writing most of the articles. They haven't read >the full text, True. The paper itself is rather badly written, IMHO. I know what he's driving at, but he does not express it well. >nor do they credit the person at The Foresight >Institue who coined the term "Open >Source" in the first place. Was it Drexler who coined the term? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 21:39:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news.ethome.net.tw (sgi1.ethome.net.tw [202.178.244.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5502137C086 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:39:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jtjang@gcn.net.tw) Received: from phantom.at.home (211.c211.ethome.net.tw [202.178.211.211]) by news.ethome.net.tw (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02652 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:39:13 +0800 (TAIST) Received: (from keith@localhost) by phantom.at.home (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA23437 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:36:48 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from keith) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:36:48 +0800 From: Jing-Tang Keith Jang To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Question about derivered version of FreeBSD (fwd) Message-ID: <20000322133647.C511@phantom.ethome.net.tw> Reply-To: jtjang@gcn.net.tw References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD phantom 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03/20/00, Michael Chin-yuan Wu wrote: > The only "base system" that CFE ever modifies > is the ufs/ffs/ part to include a hackish patch > for 16-bit character. I do not recall seeing any > efforts in the "modification of the C lib level". > -TW simply does not have the resources to do so. IIRC, the only patches in CFE deal with Big5 filenames in FAT32 and Joliet fs. These includes Unicode<->Big5 tables, and filename conversion patches. ycheng has some alternative ideas in libc level. They can be found at http://freebsd.sinica.edu.tw/mail-list_archie/, Big5 mails though. > Regarding the kernel patch for 16-bit, I will > *attempt* to make a clean modification for FFS > as my senior project. It should support unicode > and arbitrary character sets. Hopefully, that > would be enough to get us through the time until > HPUFS comes into the base system. Maybe you should do that in VFS layer. :) > Much of the CFE is already in /usr/ports/chinese/*. > -TW has an "outta-port" that provides beta-level > ports for /usr/ports/chinese. However, I think that > many i18n users would be happy to see that Keith Jang > has successfully patched netscape's menu into Chinese. It's wonderful to see a fully functional L10N Netscape, especially more stable than running L10N Netscape under Linux. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 21 23:48:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CD637BBA3 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:48:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA01232; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 02:29:48 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA43060; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:48:36 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:48:36 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More BSD books (was: What result would *you* like from the merger?) In-Reply-To: <20000319151722.F391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > OK, OK already. I have a book in the works with the provisional title > "Advanced BSD System Administration". Note the exact wording of the > title; it predates the merger. > > Any input on what you'd loke to see in the book is welcome. I'm go to do the most useless thing I can. I'm going to say this: "Keep up the good work." I'll probably buy the book at some point. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 1: 5:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1222B37BD3A for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:05:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 29444 invoked from network); 22 Mar 2000 08:58:23 -0000 Received: from theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 22 Mar 2000 08:58:23 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:28:22 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003212351.QAA13462@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I think that if a professional software company were to do a > formal code review on "fetchmail", the case-study basis for > Raymond's paper, and publish the results, the entire Open Source > movement might very well falter as "an obviously bad idea, in > retrospect". The press is already starting to back up on the > idea of Linux (right or wrong); see: > > That article isn't really backing up on the idea of Linux being high-quality: it worries about fragmentation among distributions, and "what happens if Linus gets hit by a truck" -- ie a possible fork in the kernel itself. For the first question, the article itself talks about the proposed linux standard base, and for the second, I don't think any linuxers are worried: already Alan Cox has as much respect as Linus himself, and there are others down the line, so a code fork would look very unlikely even if Linus did get hit by a truck. On the whole the article looked pretty positive to me -- I've seen much worse, anyway. > I think litigation is only going to be an issue when Open Source > becomes more than a paper-dragon threat to commercial enterprises; It's good to note that you say "when" rather than "if". The growth of linux in mindshare is pretty phenomenal, I increasingly see ordinary people curious about it. Moreover, the open-source people are widely seen as the "good guys", no longer confused with the media image of "hackers" as vandals. BSD is not so well known but it doesn't have to be: once the open source alternative gets accepted, people will start getting to know BSD too. I suspect that litigation on patent infringements, even if legally possible, will become rather hard by that time, for PR reasons. As one article some time back put it, it would be like suing Santa Claus. In any case, to protect the movement (and the industry as a whole) those open-source people who are beginning to get into influential positions in software companies should start lobbying for reforms on software patents. Now is really the time, with the statements by Tim O'Reilly and Jeff Bezos on the Amazon patents, and Bezos himself calling for reforms. I'm sure if heavyweights like IBM and HP can be persuaded to push for it it will be done. On that subject, here is a question I've often wondered about: the FreeBSD distribution comes with the Unix compress command included. Doesn't this infringe the Unisys patent on LZW? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 1:28:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D55537BD92 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:28:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 28844 invoked from network); 22 Mar 2000 09:28:22 -0000 Received: from du09.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.9) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 22 Mar 2000 09:28:22 -0000 Message-ID: <38D89205.BB48156C@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 04:27:33 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > On that subject, here is a question I've often wondered about: > the FreeBSD distribution comes with the Unix compress command > included. Doesn't this infringe the Unisys patent on LZW? Any implementations in use before a certain date are grandfathered. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 1:48:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4991837C15A; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:48:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA30306; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:48:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:48:14 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > That article isn't really backing up on the idea of Linux being > high-quality: it worries about fragmentation among distributions, > and "what happens if Linus gets hit by a truck" -- ie a possible Well, there's only one way to find out. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 4:25:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40B337B9D0 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 04:25:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e2MCPUO08409 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:25:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:25:30 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Boston User Group? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Did anything come of the discussions about starting a Boston area user group? I just got up here a few weeks ago and I've started to get settled in. I'm living in Burlington right now, but moving to Acton. If nothing has happened, now is the time I guess ;) email me privately if interested ;) -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 7: 0:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (hydrant.intranova.net [209.201.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 65D6737C047 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 07:00:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: (qmail 52549 invoked from network); 22 Mar 2000 15:04:50 -0000 Received: from localhost.abuselabs.com (HELO localhost) (missnglnk@127.0.0.1) by localhost.abuselabs.com with SMTP; 22 Mar 2000 15:04:50 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:04:49 -0500 (EST) From: Omachonu Ogali To: spork Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Netpliance I-Opener In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.netbsd.org/Changes/#iopener_booted_with_netbsd You could probably follow the same steps and either install FreeBSD on a 2.5" hard drive or you can boot up with PicoBSD (when it's fixed) instead. On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, spork wrote: > Anyone bought one of these to run FreeBSD? > > See http://www.netpliance.com for pics and all, Slashdot for all the Linux > folks getting all excited over it > (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/03/11/1216231&mode=thread) and the > page that started the whole thing: http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener > > If you've bought one, I'm curious about a few things: > > -what is the usb chipset? (is it supported?) > -details on the 16M flashcard (bootable under FBSD?) > > I'm looking to set one up, but rather than throw a hard drive in it, just > boot from flash and do everything else over nfs... > > Sorry if this is old news or if it's a raging topic elsewhere.. > > Thanks, > > Charles > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 8:16:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C45937C190 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:16:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id IAA19503; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:16:08 -0800 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda19501; Wed Mar 22 08:15:52 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA03494; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from cwsys9.cwsent.com(10.2.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpdzD3492; Wed Mar 22 08:15:51 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA00932; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:15:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003221615.IAA00932@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdbiC922; Wed Mar 22 08:15:21 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE X-Sender: cy To: Richard Wackerbarth Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SV: Voxware is toast. Get used to it. (Re: Suggestions for impro In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Mar 2000 06:24:14 CST." <00032206535801.01108@nomad.dataplex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:15:21 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <00032206535801.01108@nomad.dataplex.net>, Richard Wackerbarth write s: > On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Thomas Uhrfelt wrote: > > > "-RELEASE" is not a state. It is a point in time. > > > The other terms refer to the continuum between releases. > > > > > > I still think that "current" is misleading to newbies and should be > > called > > > "development". > > > > I have no religious views at all on the subject, so either way is fine by > > me. The reason why it's called CURRENT I belive is due to the fact thats > > where the focal point on the project is. New things gets adopted and > > basically - that's where FreeBSD is, not neccessarily the users. > > Yes, I understand the basis. FreeBSD was viewed as a DEVELOPMENT project > and everything was referenced in that context > > > > > It is possible from this > > > > mailing list launch suggestion for the development team? > > > > > > I don't think so. It seems that "its their sand box" and they really > > > don't care how unfriendly their practices are to mere "users" > > > > Your statement is highly unfair, I have been swimming in this community > > pond for the last 18 months, and I never experienced the core as elitist or > > > anything near that. > > Only 18 months! I've got FreeBSD systems still up that haven't been rebooted > in > that period. Unfortunately, Moore's Law may be the uptime killer :-) > > Before you pass judgment, you should read some of the > "You F&*(&king idiot, RTFM!" replies that used to go out in response to > questions from new, would be, users. > > > Not to mention that the FreeBSD support model is > > unparalleled. I get better support from the FreeBSD community that I do > > from $10K support contracts. > > I don't dispute this at all. It IS one of the real selling points. > > However, IMHO, FreeBSD has a "reputation" for being (to be polite) "elitist". > If the project ever wants to break out of the "developer's sandbox", it MUST > attract "mere users". I disagree. I'm not a developer and haven't been for over 8 years (used to develop MVS Operating System extensions and commercial products -- biggest project was over 1.5 million lines of assembler), nor am I in any FreeBSD circle (surrounded by pushy Linux bigots). I don't get any impression that FreeBSD is "elitist". To be sure there are some rude people and even some a-holes on the FreeBSD project. (Being an a-hole is not necessarily a bad thing. When I was single, the more of an a-hole I was, the more I got laid. Go figure.) Developers tend to be a focused bunch. Anything that keeps them away from their first love -- developing -- will elicit, at times, a strong emotional reaction. I for one get curt with people when distracted from my primary focus too often (or when dealing with a complete idiot). I would think other people might do the same. The reason you don't see (or aren't supposed to see) an attitude from commercial vendors is that they hire sales types to deal with customers while developers locked in the back room away from anyone who might get hurt. A project like FreeBSD doesn't attract many sales people to tell you what you want to hear. Besides I know a lot of developers who would develop for nothing but I don't know any sales people who would sell for nothing. I just think it's just the nature of the beast. > > I think that many of the developers ignore the "tax" that they pay in answeri > ng > the same support questions over and over. The developers are so set in their > ways that they fail to accept the fact that "cosmetic" changes can have real > benefit. There is a pervasive "if it's not code, it's worthless" attitude. Th > ey > prefer to make others suffer so they can continue in their comfortable ruts. > That's why I call it a "developer's sandbox". > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 8:49:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AAF337BF57; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:49:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA40471; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:49:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:49:13 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Voxware is toast. Get used to it. (Re: Suggestions for impro In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > 3.X -SOLID > 4.X -STABLE > 5.X -CURRENT Why stop there? 3.X-SOLID 4.x-LIQUID 5.x-GAS Or we could go the route some linux distributions have chosen and use completely random words for our releases: 3.X-ARCHIBALD 4.X-GOATCHEESE 5.X-SNEEZE Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 9: 1:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pooh.elsevier.nl (pooh.elsevier.nl [145.36.13.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C3B37B99A; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:01:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve@pooh.elsevier.nl) Received: (from steve@localhost) by pooh.elsevier.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01457; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:07:15 GMT (envelope-from steve) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:07:14 -0000 (GMT) From: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Voxware is toast. Get used to it. (Re: Suggestions for impro Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-Mar-00 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >> 3.X -SOLID >> 4.X -STABLE >> 5.X -CURRENT > > Why stop there? > > 3.X-SOLID > 4.x-LIQUID > 5.x-GAS I miss the smiley I think. My suggestion was intended seriously and SOLID was intended to be meaningful as in 'solid as a rock'. The point is that there is a development track in normal use by FreeBSD users that doesn't have a name SOLID seems (to me) like a good one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 10:13:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98F2E37C1C5 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:13:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA97688; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:12:06 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:12:06 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003211916.MAA02175@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > ... To avoid the collateral damage done by the GPL ... > > [ ... ] > > > The fact that GCC does not have BSD-licensed competition is one > > of the main reasons that there are few decent alternatives left > > for non-Microsoft platforms. > > TenDRA. You should make it do linker sets, and then we can compile > FreeBSD with it. > > For the most part, you already can. Probably a larger part than many people think. > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 10:15:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47A437C1B3 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:15:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA97717; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:14:33 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:14:33 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000321220136.04176900@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:16 PM 3/21/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: > > >TenDRA. You should make it do linker sets, and then we can compile > >FreeBSD with it. > > I have no idea what sort of shape TenDRA is in. As I understand it, > it was the product of a research project which stopped after the > initial proof of concept and before the compiler produced well-optimized > code.... It might require quite a bit of work to become competitive. > I'd want to work with a team on this. Well, depending on what you call well-optimised. For a set of codes, it is better than gcc. > > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 10:57:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FF337C1D7 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:57:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com ([216.88.157.130]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA00828; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 05:26:28 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01916; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:55:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:55:49 -0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Paul Richards Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Terry Lambert , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What's in a name? (was: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers?) Message-ID: <20000322105549.M416@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <200003171545.IAA16366@usr06.primenet.com> <38D637E0.B9ABBBBB@originative.co.uk> <20000320211849.B522@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <38D7C5FF.E407F830@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38D7C5FF.E407F830@originative.co.uk>; from paul@originative.co.uk on Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 06:57:03PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 March 2000 at 18:57:03 +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Monday, 20 March 2000 at 14:38:24 +0000, Paul Richards wrote: >>> Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >>>> >>>> Terry Lambert writes: >>>>> The point is that, if a driver already exists in BSDI, and FreeBSD >>>>> becomes the public shadow of the BSDI source tree, there is very >>>>> little incentive to write a new driver among volunteers, because >>>>> the job has already been done, and there are interesting things to >>>>> write that haven't yet been done. >>>> >>>> Why would FreeBSD become the public shadow of the BSDI source tree? >>>> From what I've read about the merger, the reverse (BSDI becoming the >>>> commercial shadow of FreeBSD) is more likely. >>>> >>>> Let me spell it out for you: BSDI WILL NOT CONTROL FREEBSD. >>>> >>>> Nobody can take arbitrary control of FreeBSD. It's open source. Even >>>> if Jordan, David & co. were to "sell out" to BSDI today, they couldn't >>>> stop committers from finding another place to host the project and >>>> carry on with its development. The worst they can do is stop us from >>>> using the name. >>> >>> Umm, that's more than a little ridiculous. >>> >>> Nobody can stop anyone taking the codebase and lauching another project. >>> If "Jordan, David & co" stop you using the name then what you're doing >>> is setting up a competing project not taking the project somewhere else. >> >> I think this is a matter of definition. Do you consider the project >> to be the name, or the product? Recall that we have already gone >> through a number of names: UNIX, Berkeley UNIX, BSD UNIX, BSD, >> FreeBSD. There's a continuity of product from one to the next. Sure, >> I wouldn't want to drop the BSD name, but then I wasn't too happy when >> we had to drop the UNIX name, either. But we survived. > > Who do you mean by "we". The community that has become FreeBSD. > The only name change that FreeBSD has gone through was from "386BSD > 0.1 Interim" to FreeBSD, which is actually a good example in that > the name change also resulted in a new project since it was > essentially a split from 386BSD in the same way that NetBSD was. If that's where you start, sure. But FreeBSD wasn't written from scratch the way Linux was. It goes back a long way, and that's what I was referring to. > Maybe some definitions would be useful. > > The project is neither the name nor the product. The name could be > changed, if the project felt we should rebrand, and maybe it will > following the merger, perhaps it will be BSD 5.0. Well, I'd go for 5BSD or 5.0BSD. > We could also change the product, say we decided that BSD/OS was > much better and we should just throw FreeBSD's code base away and > use that instead. That's a little at variance with the real intentions. > All the above would still take place within the project structure, with > the core team having executive control and the usual hierarchical peer > structure within the developer community. > > If you split from the project structure though then you are forming a > new project. If you disagree with core's decisions and take the code, > and even many of the developers and go off and do your own thing then > that is a project split. You are forced to change the name of your > product because the core team/foundation own it but it is not the name > that is relevant, it is the setting up of a competing project structure. > This is just like OpenBSD splitting from NetBSD. OK, now let's consider the object of this month's FUD: that BSDI tries to take over FreeBSD and change it beyond recognition. If a *majority* of FreeBSD developers left and formed a "new" project to continue the old tradition, would that be a new project? Is FreeBSD no longer UNIX, just because the lawyers say so? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 11:37:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FED837C267 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:37:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA18193; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:36:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAKMaGCJ; Wed Mar 22 12:36:51 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18183; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:40:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003221940.MAA18183@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:40:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000321221834.041727c0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 21, 2000 10:19:37 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 04:51 PM 3/21/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: > > >People who have read an abstract of Raymond's "The Cathedral And > >th Bazaar" are writing most of the articles. They haven't read > >the full text, > > True. The paper itself is rather badly written, IMHO. I know > what he's driving at, but he does not express it well. > > >nor do they credit the person at The Foresight > >Institue who coined the term "Open > >Source" in the first place. > > Was it Drexler who coined the term? No, Christine Peterson. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 12: 6:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4D3437C24E for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:06:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F571D131; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:06:25 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38D927C1.5ACA28B3@originative.co.uk> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:06:25 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Terry Lambert , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's in a name? (was: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers?) References: <200003171545.IAA16366@usr06.primenet.com> <38D637E0.B9ABBBBB@originative.co.uk> <20000320211849.B522@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <38D7C5FF.E407F830@originative.co.uk> <20000322105549.M416@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Tuesday, 21 March 2000 at 18:57:03 +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > >> > >> I think this is a matter of definition. Do you consider the project > >> to be the name, or the product? Recall that we have already gone > >> through a number of names: UNIX, Berkeley UNIX, BSD UNIX, BSD, > >> FreeBSD. There's a continuity of product from one to the next. Sure, > >> I wouldn't want to drop the BSD name, but then I wasn't too happy when > >> we had to drop the UNIX name, either. But we survived. > > > > Who do you mean by "we". > > The community that has become FreeBSD. > > > The only name change that FreeBSD has gone through was from "386BSD > > 0.1 Interim" to FreeBSD, which is actually a good example in that > > the name change also resulted in a new project since it was > > essentially a split from 386BSD in the same way that NetBSD was. > > If that's where you start, sure. But FreeBSD wasn't written from > scratch the way Linux was. It goes back a long way, and that's what I > was referring to. The codebase goes back a long way but the project doesn't. I'm not arguing that the code will continue for a long time to come, under whatever guise it feels appropriate at the time and in that sense, yes it has gone through many name changes, but each of those name changes was due to the fact that a new project structure came in to being. Yes, FreeBSD is still Unix as far as we're all concerned but can we call it Unix, no because a previous project structure owns the trademark (passed around a lot I know). The analogy holds very true, while anybody can take the code and setup another project they cannot take FreeBSD somewhere else, just as we couldn't take Unix somewhere else. > > Maybe some definitions would be useful. > > > > The project is neither the name nor the product. The name could be > > changed, if the project felt we should rebrand, and maybe it will > > following the merger, perhaps it will be BSD 5.0. > > Well, I'd go for 5BSD or 5.0BSD. > > > We could also change the product, say we decided that BSD/OS was > > much better and we should just throw FreeBSD's code base away and > > use that instead. > > That's a little at variance with the real intentions. It was only meant as an example of the sorts of things that could be done by the project, to illustrate that the project and the codebase are not the same thing. > > > All the above would still take place within the project structure, with > > the core team having executive control and the usual hierarchical peer > > structure within the developer community. > > > > If you split from the project structure though then you are forming a > > new project. If you disagree with core's decisions and take the code, > > and even many of the developers and go off and do your own thing then > > that is a project split. You are forced to change the name of your > > product because the core team/foundation own it but it is not the name > > that is relevant, it is the setting up of a competing project structure. > > This is just like OpenBSD splitting from NetBSD. > > OK, now let's consider the object of this month's FUD: that BSDI tries > to take over FreeBSD and change it beyond recognition. If a > *majority* of FreeBSD developers left and formed a "new" project to > continue the old tradition, would that be a new project? Is FreeBSD > no longer UNIX, just because the lawyers say so? Of course it would be a new project. The *FreeBSD* project would continue, even if a majority of the current developers left to form a new project. This is *exactly* what happened with the previous splits from 386BSD, where's the difference. You can argue that we're all still BSD or even all still Unix, but I don't feel that's a very useful interpretation since we're really discussing is the project, not what the software is that the project produces. The software from the new project could never be FreeBSD, you can call it a FreeBSD derivative, or BSD derived or a Unix clone, but you can never actually brand it as any of those because they all belong to other projects and you cannot change that fact by picking up the code and moving to a new home. Yes, we're all still Unix but no we're not still part of the Bell Labs project that started it all. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 13:19:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF6737B704 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:19:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21978; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:19:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAZ6aqQQ; Wed Mar 22 14:19:08 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20201; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:19:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003222119.OAA20201@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:19:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 22, 2000 02:28:22 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I think that if a professional software company were to do a > > formal code review on "fetchmail", the case-study basis for > > Raymond's paper, and publish the results, the entire Open Source > > movement might very well falter as "an obviously bad idea, in > > retrospect". The press is already starting to back up on the > > idea of Linux (right or wrong); see: > > > > > > That article isn't really backing up on the idea of Linux being > high-quality: it worries about fragmentation among distributions, > and "what happens if Linus gets hit by a truck" -- ie a possible > fork in the kernel itself. For the first question, the article > itself talks about the proposed linux standard base, and for the > second, I don't think any linuxers are worried: already Alan Cox > has as much respect as Linus himself, and there are others down > the line, so a code fork would look very unlikely even if Linus > did get hit by a truck. On the whole the article looked pretty > positive to me -- I've seen much worse, anyway. I think you are csting this in a more favorable light than perhaps a businessman not already a Linux advocate would cast it. The libc/glibc split, while claimed healed, and the problem with commercial software only being "supported" on a single distribution, are both looming, IMO. It also seems to me that Linux could take a page from my FABIO (Free Application Binary Interface Objective) proposal, and give vendors a way to disable "all that which is not cross distribution" by flipping a switch during porting, so that all distributions will be guaranteed to run a given commercial binary. This in itself is significantly less desirable than my initial proposal, which is that either the UnixWare or Solaris x86 ABI be taken as a base, and the same "disable everything which is not cross platform during porting" requirement, so that a single binary will run on all "FABIO compliant" (via self certification) platforms -- Level 1 compliance means that you can turn off the non-FABIO ABI components, and Level 2 (the default for the default binary compatability platform) means that you can't turn them off, so you shouldn't do your porting/developement there, but you can be guaranteed that you can run there afterward. As Linux distributions add "value add", as the article points out that they are doing, they are guilty of the same in-fighting that fragmented the UNIX market in the 80's and early 90's: they are attempting to differntiate themselves from the other distributions in their perceived ecological niche -- instead of looking at the big picture: "Oh, we _can't_ compete with Microsoft!" -- and in the process, they are screwing each other and ignoring the real threat to their market. And that threat is _not_ another UNIX. > > I think litigation is only going to be an issue when Open Source > > becomes more than a paper-dragon threat to commercial enterprises; > > It's good to note that you say "when" rather than "if". That's future perfect tense, based on "only going to be"; that's an implied conditional. I didn't mean to imply a belief in a manifest destiny for Open Source, so maybe it's not as "good" as you thought I meant. > The growth of linux in mindshare is pretty phenomenal, I increasingly > see ordinary people curious about it. This is a function of hype. It doesn't matter if it's deserved, or not, it's still hype. > Moreover, the open-source > people are widely seen as the "good guys", no longer confused > with the media image of "hackers" as vandals. Or the word "hackers", at all. The public still sees "hackers" as evil forces bent on stealing their credit card numbers, should they be so stupid as to buy something online. > BSD is not so well > known but it doesn't have to be: once the open source alternative > gets accepted, people will start getting to know BSD too. Not an issue, really. > I suspect that litigation on patent infringements, even if legally > possible, will become rather hard by that time, for PR reasons. > As one article some time back put it, it would be like suing > Santa Claus. Or suing God -- one of the higher rated Ally McBeal episodes, when it initially aired. I really don't see this as an issue. USL went after BSDI after their "1-800-IT'S-UNIX" phone number woke the lawyers up on a trademark issue, and they didn't go back to sleep, because that's the purpose of lawyers. USL went after UCB when BSDI hid behind the Net/2 distribution hoping UCB would shield them from USL trying to turn Trade Secret protection into some kind of Patent equivalent, when the law clearly states that once disclosed, the Trade Secret can never be reclaimed, and only the discloser can be sued, and then only for direct damages resulting from the disclosure (this whole area was well mapped out in case law, based on the steel industry and Andrew Carnegie). And then UCB caved, after Dennis Ritchie and other Bell Labs employees offered to testify on UCB's behalf, and MIT offered to bankroll them with money from their impressive patent portfolio. Law suits _will_ happen, and law suits _will_ get settled in dingily lit back rooms and in the offices of corporate VPs getting ragged on by their employees, as Mike DeFazio, VP of the Novell/USG was ragged on. Take it as a given that law suits are the result of a net positive coming out of a risk analysis equation, and that this will not change in the foreseeable future. > In any case, to protect the movement (and the industry as a > whole) those open-source people who are beginning to get into > influential positions in software companies should start lobbying > for reforms on software patents. Now is really the time, with the > statements by Tim O'Reilly and Jeff Bezos on the Amazon patents, > and Bezos himself calling for reforms. I'm sure if heavyweights > like IBM and HP can be persuaded to push for it it will be done. That's not going to happen. Like Spec. 1170, and the UNIX trademark branding process, and the POSIX certification branding process, and the Motif trademark branding process, and hundreds of others, a large patent portfolio is more like an admission ticket: it's not so much to support you, as it is to keep other people out, and if you can't do that (worst case scenario), you use it as trading cards to prevent other people keeping _you_ out. Right now, I think that's seen as a significant competitive advantage, and a reason for higher-than-would-otherwise-be market valuation -- and one of the businesses of publically held companies is to protet and increase shareholder value. Look at any patent-rich company's annual report, and you will see an explicit reference to their patent portfolio. > On that subject, here is a question I've often wondered about: > the FreeBSD distribution comes with the Unix compress command > included. Doesn't this infringe the Unisys patent on LZW? No. The command, unmodified, was permitted. The encoding is actually the only thing affected by the patent, in any case, since that is Unisys' (Terry Welch's, actually) contribution. The LZ (Lempel-Ziv) decoder will decode both, and is not patent protected. I would have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure that patent has expired, unless it was submerged (filed but not executed) prior to GIF images becoming common on the net. At the time, the enforcement was really more driven by CompuServe, attempting to combat ISP's for market share, than it was by Unisys -- though Unisys made the most of it to float their stock price a bit higher (it was in the toilet), with the press coverage. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 13:26:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7F837B523; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:26:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA08070; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:26:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAifaiGp; Wed Mar 22 14:25:54 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20414; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:26:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003222126.OAA20414@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: kris@FreeBSD.org (Kris Kennaway) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:26:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Kris Kennaway" at Mar 22, 2000 01:48:14 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rahul Siddharthan: "... what happens [to Linux] if Linus gets hit by a truck ...". Kris Kennaway: "Well, there's only one way to find out". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Can someone commit this to the fortune cookie database? Thanks, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 14:39:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3948437C381 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:39:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 30952 invoked by uid 211); 22 Mar 2000 22:39:27 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 22 Mar 2000 22:39:27 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:09:27 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kris Kennaway , Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003222126.OAA20414@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rahul Siddharthan: > > "... what happens [to Linux] if Linus gets hit by a truck ...". > > Kris Kennaway: > > "Well, there's only one way to find out". > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Can someone commit this to the fortune cookie database? Leave my name out, I'd prefer other routes to immortality :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 14:42:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3967B37C282 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:42:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 30961 invoked by uid 211); 22 Mar 2000 22:42:07 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 22 Mar 2000 22:42:07 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:12:07 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003222119.OAA20201@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > actually the only thing affected by the patent, in any case, > since that is Unisys' (Terry Welch's, actually) contribution. > The LZ (Lempel-Ziv) decoder will decode both, and is not patent > protected. I would have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure > that patent has expired, unless it was submerged (filed but not > executed) prior to GIF images becoming common on the net. At I think I read that it's supposed to expire in 2003. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 15:44:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FEC937C419; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 15:44:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.238.239] (dialup1071.brussels2.skynet.be [194.78.238.239]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F1D180CF; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:44:35 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200003231702.LAA84469@aurora.sol.net> References: <200003231702.LAA84469@aurora.sol.net> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:21:45 +0100 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: dot-0 releases Cc: stable@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:02 AM -0600 2000/3/23, Joe Greco wrote: > OMG, now, that is just the worst bit of bootlicking I've seen this year. Enjoy it while you can! I'm just buttering you up so that you'll stay SANE until May.... ;-) -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 16:43:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E5F37B8DC for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:43:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D741D131 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:43:05 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38D96899.4F4DF090@originative.co.uk> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:43:05 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Trivial fact Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mozilla sources seem to take up a huge amount of space on my disk so I decided to measure it. Mozilla sources: 549Mb FreeBSD sources: 548Mb (including a couple of kernel obj directories!) Hmm. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 17:14:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay.securify.com (relay.securify.com [207.5.63.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CB27537B7D5 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:14:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomb@securify.com) Received: by relay.securify.com; id RAA27550; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:17:06 -0800 Received: from unknown(10.5.63.6) by relay.securify.com via smap (V5.5) id xma027535; Wed, 22 Mar 00 17:16:29 -0800 Received: from ss (dude.securify.com [10.5.63.6]) by dude.securify.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA93633 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:16:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomb@securify.com) Reply-To: From: "tomb" To: Subject: Is anyone else having problems with /stand/sysinstal on Release-4.0 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:14:53 -0800 Message-ID: <001c01bf9465$3234ebc0$2b3f050a@ss.securify.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I'm having a hell of a time trying to upgrade a machine that has never had any trouble before. ftp fail's again and again, but only ever half way through an install. t To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 17:22: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5D437C275 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:22:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA08561; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:21:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAylaiSq; Wed Mar 22 18:21:05 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA28782; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:24:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003230124.SAA28782@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:24:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 23, 2000 04:12:07 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > actually the only thing affected by the patent, in any case, > > since that is Unisys' (Terry Welch's, actually) contribution. > > The LZ (Lempel-Ziv) decoder will decode both, and is not patent > > protected. I would have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure > > that patent has expired, unless it was submerged (filed but not > > executed) prior to GIF images becoming common on the net. At > > I think I read that it's supposed to expire in 2003. Try 1999: http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US04558302__ Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 17:27: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CFFD37B88B for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:27:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([216.61.57.24]) by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FRU00DRQP9UX7@mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:25:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00958; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:02:22 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:02:22 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: What's in a name? (was: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers?) In-reply-to: <38D927C1.5ACA28B3@originative.co.uk> To: Paul Richards Cc: Greg Lehey , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: [snip] >Yes, FreeBSD is still Unix as far as we're all concerned but can we call >it Unix, no because a previous project structure owns the trademark >(passed around a lot I know). The analogy holds very true, while anybody >can take the code and setup another project they cannot take FreeBSD >somewhere else, just as we couldn't take Unix somewhere else. So what's the big problem with the name? If there is an AIX, we could be called CIX, or, if we really wanted to get nasty, DIX (BIX is already taken -- we could even call it Lunix, since Solaris is taken;) but it would be the same code and a number of the same people. It seems a little selfish to want to depend on a name that someone else has gone to the effort to build to recognition. No one seems interested in what _benefits_ this merger will have. Why not wait and smell the rose when it blooms? Or shoot the skunk when it sprays. Right now we're wringing our hands over assumptions. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 18:22:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83D737B8EF for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:22:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B8E1D132; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:22:52 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38D97FFB.AAC44D40@originative.co.uk> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:22:51 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jay Nelson Cc: Greg Lehey , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's in a name? (was: The Merger,and what will its effects be on committers?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Nelson wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: > > [snip] > > >Yes, FreeBSD is still Unix as far as we're all concerned but can we call > >it Unix, no because a previous project structure owns the trademark > >(passed around a lot I know). The analogy holds very true, while anybody > >can take the code and setup another project they cannot take FreeBSD > >somewhere else, just as we couldn't take Unix somewhere else. > > So what's the big problem with the name? If there is an AIX, we could > be called CIX, or, if we really wanted to get nasty, DIX (BIX is > already taken -- we could even call it Lunix, since Solaris is taken;) > but it would be the same code and a number of the same people. It > seems a little selfish to want to depend on a name that someone else > has gone to the effort to build to recognition. I think this has just about wandered completely off the point now. What I pointed out originally was that I thought it was silly to claim that if the foundation insisted on keeping the name, the rest of us were still free to go off and develop *FreeBSD* because we aren't. We'd be free to go off and develop some other project that produced an OS that was exactly like FreeBSD but we would not be the FreeBSD project, we would be the YetAnotherBSD project and pretty soon we'd diverge from FreeBSD, otherwise why would we have wanted to set up on our own in the first place? This isn't really what the original discussion centred around anyway, we started of debating whether comapany X was allowed to call their distribution FreeBSD if their distribution in any way diverged from the official release and what actually constituted the official release. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 19:45:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1761737BA28 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:45:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA85757; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:44:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38D99322.E90B0E31@gorean.org> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:44:34 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-HEAD-0320 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards Cc: Jay Nelson , Greg Lehey , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's in a name? (was: The Merger,and what will its effects be on committers?) References: <38D97FFB.AAC44D40@originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Richards wrote: > What I pointed out originally was that I thought it was silly to claim > that if the foundation insisted on keeping the name, the rest of us were > still free to go off and develop *FreeBSD* because we aren't. But you can't do that _now_. The merger changes nothing in this regard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 19:50:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C0A37B990 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:50:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15988; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:31:11 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA55339; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:50:01 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:50:01 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: Bill Fumerola Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What does "Voxware still supported in 4.0" mean exactly? In-Reply-To: <20000322222428.E25438@jade.chc-chimes.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > SB64 works fine for me, I'm currently listening to 'RATM - No Shelter' and it > sounds great. > > A beta SBLive driver is available right now, and new card drivers have been > coming in at a steady pace since Cameron took over. Extracting datasheets from > corporate whores is the largest roadblock at this point. Bill, you're letting you music get the best of you ;-). ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 20:22: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1770937B97C for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:22:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r24.bfm.org [216.127.220.120]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:23:09 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000322222211.00b41100@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:22:11 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: What's in a name? (was: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers?) In-Reply-To: References: <38D927C1.5ACA28B3@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 19:02 22-03-2000 -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: >So what's the big problem with the name? If there is an AIX, we could >be called CIX, or, if we really wanted to get nasty, DIX (BIX is >already taken -- we could even call it Lunix, since Solaris is taken;) >but it would be the same code and a number of the same people. Hehe. The only problem with naming the OS Lunix is that it would make *us* (Lunix users) Lunatix! :))) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 20:49:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from radius.city-guide.com (radius.cityisp.net [216.2.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F347937C30E for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:49:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@cityisp.net) Received: from ns1.titanhosting.com (ns1.titanhosting.com [216.3.179.5]) by radius.city-guide.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.2.181) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:58:38 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:58:29 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Lynch X-Sender: lynch@ns1.titanhosting.com To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's in a name? (was: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000322222211.00b41100@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org basically, as long as FreeBSD is still operating as wonderfully as it has, let's just keep the name FreeBSD and let the rest of the BSD's combine with it so that FreeBSD will be thought of in the same light as Windows NT - an Operating System WITH accountability, and respect. Everyone that reads this will obviously have the respect. It's time for the *BSD's to combine and become a Force the Marketing, and Development of this flavor of Unix. It's only logic ,that given the funding, FreeBSD could potentially become a contender with NT (2000, whatever). I work for an ISP that uses FreeBSD (because my former bosses are now also employed there), but, only marginally. My former employer's ran an ISP with FreeBSD being the main OS...they used Sun's also, and it ran 10 times better than the NT based network we are at now. This bring me to my point: Accountability. Micro$hit has the $$$ to offer. Since everyone of us knows that FreeBSD is the WAY to run efficiently and , most importantly, COST EFFECTIVELY, shouldn't we focus and making FreeBSD a mainstream OS? Will we lose the Open Source attitude? NO, we should break new ground with it. Should we fear "Sell-Out" being flung our way? No. The BSD's of the Universe (anymore out there?) need to combine and finally take it's place as the King of the Internet. The Internet isn't going anywhere. It's time that FreeBSD get's it Day. just my 2 pennies. Chris Lynch Proud to Use FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 20:50: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9F037BB57 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:49:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: by super-g.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AF384B41E; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:49:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 994DEB418; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:49:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:49:57 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Omachonu Ogali Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Netpliance I-Opener In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think my main curiousity here is how you can just barf the kernel onto the disk as described there and have it work. Don't you have to write a label or something? Once that's done it would just be a matter of building a kernel with the proper support and setting up an nfs server for the thing... Also, anyone aware of whether the USB controller in the unit is supported by 4.0? A USB-ethernet adapter seems to be the cheapest way to get the thing on the net at any decent speed. Thanks, Charles --- Charles Sprickman spork@super-g.com --- On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Omachonu Ogali wrote: > http://www.netbsd.org/Changes/#iopener_booted_with_netbsd > > You could probably follow the same steps and either install FreeBSD on a > 2.5" hard drive or you can boot up with PicoBSD (when it's fixed) instead. > > On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, spork wrote: > > > Anyone bought one of these to run FreeBSD? > > > > See http://www.netpliance.com for pics and all, Slashdot for all the Linux > > folks getting all excited over it > > (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/03/11/1216231&mode=thread) and the > > page that started the whole thing: http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener > > > > If you've bought one, I'm curious about a few things: > > > > -what is the usb chipset? (is it supported?) > > -details on the 16M flashcard (bootable under FBSD?) > > > > I'm looking to set one up, but rather than throw a hard drive in it, just > > boot from flash and do everything else over nfs... > > > > Sorry if this is old news or if it's a raging topic elsewhere.. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Charles > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > -- > +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | > | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | > | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | > | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | > +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 20:56:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from segment7.net (ppp29.pm3c.wport.com [206.129.99.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB85437B646 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:56:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hodeleri@segment7.net) Received: (from hodeleri@localhost) by segment7.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA26944 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:58:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hodeleri) From: Eric Hodel Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:58:55 -0800 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Trivial Fact Message-ID: <20000322205855.A26127@toxic.magnesium.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Richards (paul@originative.co.uk) wrote: > Mozilla sources seem to take up a huge amount of space on my disk so I > decided to measure it. > > Mozilla sources: 549Mb > FreeBSD sources: 548Mb (including a couple of kernel obj directories!) > > Hmm. That is after being built, move the dist dir somewhere else: /usr/local/mozilla: 487906KB (bin, etc) /usr/current/mozilla: 136175KB (source) /usr/src: 290385KB (last supped 20000321) a tar.gz of /usr/local/mozilla: 118362205B ~118MB how big is a full install of FreeBSD gziped? Mozilla must have a LOT of debugging code turned on, a normal build for win32 zips down to ~6MB now... -- Eric Hodel - drbrain@segment7.net - http://segment7.net "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 21: 7:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E72E937B5DB for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:07:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B27C1D131; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 05:07:33 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38D9A695.E811BA3F@originative.co.uk> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 05:07:33 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton Cc: Jay Nelson , Greg Lehey , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's in a name? (was: The Merger,and what will its effects be on committers?) References: <38D97FFB.AAC44D40@originative.co.uk> <38D99322.E90B0E31@gorean.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Barton wrote: > > Paul Richards wrote: > > > What I pointed out originally was that I thought it was silly to claim > > that if the foundation insisted on keeping the name, the rest of us were > > still free to go off and develop *FreeBSD* because we aren't. > > But you can't do that _now_. The merger changes nothing in this regard. I never said this had anything to do with the merger, I was replying to DES's mail where he said that there's nothing to stop us taking the project somewhere else even if Jordan et al keep the name. I still think that's a little silly since the FreeBSD project is whatever WC/core team/BSDI/foundation or whoever owns the trademark says it is. If you do something outside of the core team/foundation structure then you're not FreeBSD in my mind. You're absolutely right though, the merger hasn't changed anything that affects that at all. This thread has totally lost all its context, we should let it drop. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 22:46: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1763237B574 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:45:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 31794 invoked by uid 211); 23 Mar 2000 06:45:20 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 23 Mar 2000 06:45:20 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:15:20 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003230124.SAA28782@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > actually the only thing affected by the patent, in any case, > > > since that is Unisys' (Terry Welch's, actually) contribution. > > > The LZ (Lempel-Ziv) decoder will decode both, and is not patent > > > protected. I would have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure > > > that patent has expired, unless it was submerged (filed but not > > > executed) prior to GIF images becoming common on the net. At > > > > I think I read that it's supposed to expire in 2003. > > Try 1999: > > http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US04558302__ Isn't the lifetime of a patent 20 years from date of filing? The above page says it was filed in June 1983. Besides, 1999 is the year Unisys suddenly started demanding $5000 from websites which use "unlicensed" GIF's. http://www.unisys.com/unisys/lzw/lzw-license.asp The page contains a "clarification" on licensing of GIF's dated September 1999. Their earlier announcement on the $5000 fee was not long before that. It seems a bit strange if the patents were supposed to expire the same year. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 22 23: 1:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FDD737B956 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:01:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: by super-g.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5B1F1B41E; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 458BEB418; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:01:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:01:28 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Kris Kirby Cc: Bill Fumerola , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What does "Voxware still supported in 4.0" mean exactly? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Do you have a pointer to more info on the SBLive drivers? I'm getting a G4 as my 'commercial OS/photoshop/video-editing' box at home and the ol' windows box (w/sblive) is going FreeBSD RSN... Willing to test/report/thrash said driver... Thanks, Charles On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: > > SB64 works fine for me, I'm currently listening to 'RATM - No Shelter' and it > > sounds great. > > > > A beta SBLive driver is available right now, and new card drivers have been > > coming in at a steady pace since Cameron took over. Extracting datasheets from > > corporate whores is the largest roadblock at this point. > > Bill, you're letting you music get the best of you ;-). > > ----- > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > | > ------------------------------------------------------- > "God gave them the ability to reproduce... > ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 23 4: 0:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BC937C3DA for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:00:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA09080; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:00:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Paul Richards Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trivial fact References: <38D96899.4F4DF090@originative.co.uk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Mar 2000 13:00:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: Paul Richards's message of "Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:43:05 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Richards writes: > Mozilla sources seem to take up a huge amount of space on my disk so I > decided to measure it. > > Mozilla sources: 549Mb Uh, no: des@des ~% ls -s /usr/ports/distfiles/mozilla-source-M13.tar.gz 20664 /usr/ports/distfiles/mozilla-source-M13.tar.gz DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 23 6:57:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rock.ghis.net (rock.ghis.net [209.222.164.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29FD737C4A4 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 06:57:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from argon.blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by rock.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA33753; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 06:57:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8EA691980; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:56:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:56:59 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trivial fact Message-ID: <20000323085659.C422@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <38D96899.4F4DF090@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Thu, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:00:17PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:00:17PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Uh, no: > > des@des ~% ls -s /usr/ports/distfiles/mozilla-source-M13.tar.gz > 20664 /usr/ports/distfiles/mozilla-source-M13.tar.gz He meant expanded sources. Just as he said 548MB for FreeBSD sources (which seems a little high, come to think of it). -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 23 7:32:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A59537B78D for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:32:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA68079 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:32:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:32:43 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Headcount for Berkeley BAFUG Message-ID: <20000323073243.A68067@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday 6pm it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 23 7:36:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7483137C4C0 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 07:36:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 006D81D131; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:36:03 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38DA39E4.5E1CDEF5@originative.co.uk> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:36:04 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trivial fact References: <38D96899.4F4DF090@originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Paul Richards writes: > > Mozilla sources seem to take up a huge amount of space on my disk so I > > decided to measure it. > > > > Mozilla sources: 549Mb > > Uh, no: > > des@des ~% ls -s /usr/ports/distfiles/mozilla-source-M13.tar.gz > 20664 /usr/ports/distfiles/mozilla-source-M13.tar.gz > That expands to 125M, which is still impressive. What I measured was the complete mozilla project which I got by doing a cvs co of their repository, exactly like I would do for FreeBSD. It includes a lot more than is in the M* builds. I've done a distclean and recalculated and it comes out as 515M. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 23 12:58:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B974137C4DA for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 12:58:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e2NKwP025512; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:58:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:58:25 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's in a name? (was: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000322222211.00b41100@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There already *is* a lunix, its C=64 Little Unix (Lunix) I know, I've run it on my c=64, scary huh? -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 19:02 22-03-2000 -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > >So what's the big problem with the name? If there is an AIX, we could > >be called CIX, or, if we really wanted to get nasty, DIX (BIX is > >already taken -- we could even call it Lunix, since Solaris is taken;) > >but it would be the same code and a number of the same people. > > Hehe. The only problem with naming the OS Lunix is that it would make *us* > (Lunix users) Lunatix! :))) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 23 15:54:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F26037B669 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:54:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA28339; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:54:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAMUaGr2; Thu Mar 23 16:52:40 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA03123; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:52:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003232352.QAA03123@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:52:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 23, 2000 12:15:20 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > actually the only thing affected by the patent, in any case, > > > > since that is Unisys' (Terry Welch's, actually) contribution. > > > > The LZ (Lempel-Ziv) decoder will decode both, and is not patent > > > > protected. I would have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure > > > > that patent has expired, unless it was submerged (filed but not > > > > executed) prior to GIF images becoming common on the net. At > > > > > > I think I read that it's supposed to expire in 2003. > > > > Try 1999: > > > > http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US04558302__ > > Isn't the lifetime of a patent 20 years from date of filing? The > above page says it was filed in June 1983. It is 14 years from date of issue for patents filed before the new patent law took effect. There are still plenty of submerged patents out there which were filed before the cut-off date, when the new rules went into effect. They will remain submerged until they are executed. Think of them as "trained attack patents". Patents filed after the cut-off date are 20 years from date of filing, regardless of date of issue. The reason this is so is that the US has a Constitutional premise that something which is not illegal can not be made illegal. This is called "ipos facto"; a loose translation is "a law after the fact". This is why you can own short barrelled shotguns in the US, so long as they were made before the law making them "illegal" went into effect. The consequences of not having this legal premise codified in the Constitution would be the ability to: 1) Dislike something that happened 2) Get elected 3) Pass a law making it illegal 4) Arresting the original person who did the thing you didn't like, and trying them under the new law In one word: tyranny. So for example, if we had patent reform that resulted in the term of process patents on algorithms and copyright on code being reduced to a term of 2 years, it would be 20 and 50 years after the death of the author, respectively, before the reform actually took effect. > Besides, 1999 is the year Unisys suddenly started demanding $5000 > from websites which use "unlicensed" GIF's. > > http://www.unisys.com/unisys/lzw/lzw-license.asp > > The page contains a "clarification" on licensing of GIF's > dated September 1999. Their earlier announcement on the $5000 > fee was not long before that. It seems a bit strange if the > patents were supposed to expire the same year. See . 1999 was the last year in which the patent was in effect. You will see that it has the same patent number as the one I referenced previously. RSA executed similar license agreements. It is a common practice to get as many people as possible to agree to "vastly reduced license fees" just before a patent expires, in order to accomplish two things: 1) Get a legally enforcible ongoing royalty stream in place, in order to ensure royalties well after the patent expiration because of the contractually committed royalty obligations. 2) Milk as much one-time revenue as possible out of a soon to expire patent, as a last ditch effort to obtain revenue. PS: You are incorrect about when Unisys first attempted to enforce the LZW patent; it was 1993. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 23 18:46:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF52037B548 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:46:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB421D131; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:46:28 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38DAD704.997B6B61@originative.co.uk> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:46:28 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" References: <200003232352.QAA03123@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > > actually the only thing affected by the patent, in any case, > > > > > since that is Unisys' (Terry Welch's, actually) contribution. > > > > > The LZ (Lempel-Ziv) decoder will decode both, and is not patent > > > > > protected. I would have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure > > > > > that patent has expired, unless it was submerged (filed but not > > > > > executed) prior to GIF images becoming common on the net. At > > > > > > > > I think I read that it's supposed to expire in 2003. > > > > > > Try 1999: > > > > > > http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US04558302__ > > > > Isn't the lifetime of a patent 20 years from date of filing? The > > above page says it was filed in June 1983. > > It is 14 years from date of issue for patents filed before the > new patent law took effect. There are still plenty of submerged > patents out there which were filed before the cut-off date, when > the new rules went into effect. They will remain submerged until > they are executed. Think of them as "trained attack patents". > > Patents filed after the cut-off date are 20 years from date of > filing, regardless of date of issue. > > The reason this is so is that the US has a Constitutional > premise that something which is not illegal can not be made > illegal. This is called "ipos facto"; a loose translation > is "a law after the fact". This is why you can own short > barrelled shotguns in the US, so long as they were made > before the law making them "illegal" went into effect. > > The consequences of not having this legal premise codified in > the Constitution would be the ability to: > > 1) Dislike something that happened > 2) Get elected > 3) Pass a law making it illegal > 4) Arresting the original person who did the thing you > didn't like, and trying them under the new law > > In one word: tyranny. This happens all the time in the UK these days. You'd be amazed what suddenly becomes illegal all of a sudden, one of the most farcical was a law banning the consumption of T-bone steaks. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 23 20:12:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0456037B5D5 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 20:12:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 14886 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2000 04:12:36 -0000 Received: from du80.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.80) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 24 Mar 2000 04:12:36 -0000 Message-ID: <38DAEAFF.A0FE5F3@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:11:43 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" References: <200003232352.QAA03123@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > The reason this is so is that the US has a Constitutional > premise that something which is not illegal can not be made > illegal. This is called "ipos facto"; a loose translation > is "a law after the fact". This is why you can own short That should be "ex post facto". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 23 22:58:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 906D137B650 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:58:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02102; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:39:52 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA69874; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:58:42 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:58:42 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: John Reynolds~ , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What does "Voxware still supported in 4.0" mean exactly? In-Reply-To: <30099.953879968@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It already purchases tens of thousands of dollars worth of such > equipment a year. We can't do it all, however, and need your help. > Some of it isn't even the money, it's the time of individuals we can't > really spare right now to go out and purchase/ship the stuff. From > that perspective, it makes far more sense to have dozens or even > hundreds of people providing stuff directly to developers rather than > somehow expecting one very small organization to handle each and > everyone's needs. That's just not even possible. And don't forget that fat pipe to the internet that ftp.freebsd.org rests on, and all the other internet services that Walnut Creek^WBSD, Inc. pays for. My $0.02. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 23 23:15:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE3737B64C for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:15:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qti57.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.200.167]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA11299; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA54852; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:20:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: brett@lariat.org Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000321221834.041727c0@localhost> References: <200003212351.QAA13462@usr08.primenet.com> <4.2.2.20000321221834.041727c0@localhost> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000323232028H.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:20:28 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 27 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:19:37 -0700 > At 04:51 PM 3/21/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: > > >People who have read an abstract of Raymond's "The Cathedral And > >th Bazaar" are writing most of the articles. They haven't read > >the full text, > > True. The paper itself is rather badly written, IMHO. I know > what he's driving at, but he does not express it well. > I didn't get it (the paper). ESR's assertion that ego gratification is the primary motivational force behind the free software revolution was a very negative impression I came away with. I couldn't disagree more. I believe that it's simply a matter of craftsmen (and women :) asserting their power over the tools of their trade. -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 23 23:23:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1DE37B64C for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:23:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qti57.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.200.167]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA16864; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 02:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA54861; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:27:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: References: <200003212351.QAA13462@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000323232747M.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:27:47 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 10 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [...] > I'm sure if heavyweights like IBM and HP can be persuaded > to push for it it will be done. Har. (Sorry :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 1:10: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0098137BC6C for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:09:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 35254 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2000 09:08:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (rsidd@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 24 Mar 2000 09:08:18 -0000 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:38:17 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003232352.QAA03123@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US04558302__ > > > > Isn't the lifetime of a patent 20 years from date of filing? The > > above page says it was filed in June 1983. > > It is 14 years from date of issue for patents filed before the > new patent law took effect. > > Besides, 1999 is the year Unisys suddenly started demanding $5000 > > from websites which use "unlicensed" GIF's. > > > > http://www.unisys.com/unisys/lzw/lzw-license.asp > > > > The page contains a "clarification" on licensing of GIF's > > See . 1999 was the last year > in which the patent was in effect. You will see that it has the > same patent number as the one I referenced previously. That page still says, in March 2000, More and more people are becoming aware that the reading and/or writing of GIF images requires a license to use Unisys patented Lempel Ziv Welch (LZW) data compression and decompression technology, including United States Patent No. 4,558,302, .... So are they wilfully deceiving the public? > PS: You are incorrect about when Unisys first attempted to > enforce the LZW patent; it was 1993. I didn't say that: I was talking about the $5000 fee for Web users of unlicensed GIF's. I'm not sure when they started that but it seemed to make news (burnallgifs.org, etc) only in 1999. As you say, that may have been a last-ditch effort to milk any remaining revenue from the patent. I know they tried enforcing it in various ways much earlier: I think even the 1980s they went after some kinds of compression software. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 1:23:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A061A37BC02 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:23:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12325; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:22:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Will Andrews Cc: Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trivial fact References: <38D96899.4F4DF090@originative.co.uk> <20000323085659.C422@argon.blackdawn.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 Mar 2000 10:22:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: Will Andrews's message of "Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:56:59 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will Andrews writes: > On Thu, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:00:17PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > des@des ~% ls -s /usr/ports/distfiles/mozilla-source-M13.tar.gz > > 20664 /usr/ports/distfiles/mozilla-source-M13.tar.gz > He meant expanded sources. Just as he said 548MB for FreeBSD sources (which > seems a little high, come to think of it). Yup. root@des ~# df -k /usr/src Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/ad0e 508143 280505 186987 60% /usr/src DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 1:38: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E76B737B68F for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:37:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 35262 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2000 09:13:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (rsidd@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 24 Mar 2000 09:13:09 -0000 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:43:08 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Paul Richards Cc: Terry Lambert , Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <38DAD704.997B6B61@originative.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > In one word: tyranny. > > This happens all the time in the UK these days. You'd be amazed what > suddenly becomes illegal all of a sudden, one of the most farcical was a > law banning the consumption of T-bone steaks. I think what Terry means is not that you can't ban consumption of T-bone steaks, but you can't arrest someone for consuming a T-bone steak before the law came into effect. So this doesn't really prevent legislators from enacting silly laws... only from persecuting people who did those things when they were legal. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 6:33:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDC537B5BA for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:33:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e2OEXLG03837; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:33:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:33:21 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: brett@lariat.org, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <20000323232028H.jhix@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ESR, Jordan, and I were at an Open Source roundtable in New York City about a year ago, and the ego thing was brought up. Lets face it, alot of us are motivated by ego, in fact the majority of us are. Maybe not in front of others, but certainly in our own eyes. We strive to outdo ourselves in everything we do. I do this in part for the ego boost, in part for sheer enjoyment. And I like the people in this community, they tend to think alot like I do. so in part it is comraderie as well. theres alot of motivating factors behind the "Free Software" movement, however I would definitely have to agree with ESR in part at least. Noone is ego-free. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Thu, 23 Mar 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > From: Brett Glass > Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" > Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:19:37 -0700 > > > At 04:51 PM 3/21/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > >People who have read an abstract of Raymond's "The Cathedral And > > >th Bazaar" are writing most of the articles. They haven't read > > >the full text, > > > > True. The paper itself is rather badly written, IMHO. I know > > what he's driving at, but he does not express it well. > > > > I didn't get it (the paper). ESR's assertion that ego gratification > is the primary motivational force behind the free software revolution > was a very negative impression I came away with. > > I couldn't disagree more. I believe that it's simply a matter of > craftsmen (and women :) asserting their power over the tools of their > trade. > > -- > > Jerry Hicks > jhix@mindspring.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 7: 9:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E271A37B6BF for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:09:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12YViE-000DPD-00; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:09:22 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA89518 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:09:22 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:09:22 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: amazon email response Message-ID: <20000324150922.A89498@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM" X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hope this come out right.. i'm using attachments.... --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=am3 I haven't ordered from amazon in a while, so they sent me an email. I responded saying i was boycotting amazon until they changed their patent policy. Here was there response.... -------------------- Dear jm, Thank you for taking the time to write to us concerning the patents we have been awarded for 1-Click ordering and for our Internet-based referral system. As you might imagine, we have received a variety of feedback about both of these issues. Patents are designed to encourage innovation. They are an important part of our intellectual property portfolio, as they are for any company in the high-tech field. However, you should know that our company has recently taken steps to encourage meaningful patent reform. Our founder and CEO, Jeff Bezos, has contacted the offices of several members of Congress from the committees with primary responsibility for patents to ask if they would be willing to meet with him on this issue. Here is a brief summary of his proposal: 1. Patent laws should recognize that business method and software patents are fundamentally different than other kinds of patents. 2. Business method and software patents should have amuch shorter lifespan than the current 17 years--we suggest 3 to 5 years. 3. When the law changes, this new lifespan should take effect retroactively so that we don't have to wait 17 years for thecurrent patents to enter the public domain. 4. For business method and software patents, there should be a short (maybe one month) public comment period *before* the patent number is issued. This would give the Internet community the opportunity to provide prior art references to the patent examiners at a time when it could really help. For more information, please take a few minutes to read Jeff's open letter on this subject: http://www.amazon.com/patents We appreciate feedback from customers about all important issues concerning Amazon.com, and we carefully consider all viewpoints expressed. We hope you will continue to let us know how we can improve our service to customers. Best regards, Misty Rodriguez Earth's Biggest Selection http://www.amazon.com ============================= Here was a response i was considering. Is there any way i can make this more effective, or is there anything i should change? --------------------- >Patents are designed to encourage innovation. They are an important >part of our intellectual property portfolio, as they are for any >company in the high-tech field. Then let other companies innovate as well. This patent will damage other companies that are NO threat to Amazon.com. >However, you should know that our company has recently taken steps to >encourage meaningful patent reform. Our founder and CEO, Jeff Bezos, >has contacted the offices of several members of Congress from the >committees with primary responsibility for patents to ask if they >would be willing to meet with him on this issue. > >Here is a brief summary of his proposal: > >1. Patent laws should recognize that business method and software >patents are fundamentally different than other kinds of patents. True. >2. Business method and software patents should have amuch shorter >lifespan than the current 17 years--we suggest 3 to 5 years. True. But Jeff will be hurting other non-threatening businesses in the process. >3. When the law changes, this new lifespan should take effect >retroactively so that we don't have to wait 17 years for the current >patents to enter the public domain. > >4. For business method andsoftware patents, there should be a short >(maybe one month) public comment period *before* the patent number is >issued. This would give the Internet community the opportunity to >provide prior art references to the patent examiners at a time when it >could really help. The One-Click idea is not that new. It's just a combination of cookies and browser tricks. The same concept has been applied in different was in many places. >For more information, please take a few minutes to read Jeff's open >letter on this subject: > >http://www.amazon.com/patents I read Jeff's letter, and he is only intent on winning, and crushing his competition and exacting license fees from those he does not crush. This is completely unfair, and contradictory to the free spirit of innovation that drives the Internet. It reminds me of Microsoft, whom I detest for the very same reason. And yes, I have boycotted them as well. Respectfully, Jonathon --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 7:24:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6046B37B52D for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:24:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544CC1D131; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:24:31 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38DB88AF.6F02CAAA@originative.co.uk> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:24:31 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Will Andrews , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trivial fact References: <38D96899.4F4DF090@originative.co.uk> <20000323085659.C422@argon.blackdawn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Will Andrews writes: > > On Thu, Mar 23, 2000 at 01:00:17PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > des@des ~% ls -s /usr/ports/distfiles/mozilla-source-M13.tar.gz > > > 20664 /usr/ports/distfiles/mozilla-source-M13.tar.gz > > He meant expanded sources. Just as he said 548MB for FreeBSD sources (which > > seems a little high, come to think of it). > > Yup. > > root@des ~# df -k /usr/src > Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > /dev/ad0e 508143 280505 186987 60% /usr/src > I did say it included a few compiled kernels, I was only making a general point that the mozilla project is roughly the same size as the whole of FreeBSD. I didn't intend it to be a definitive statement! Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 7:43:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B0C37B506 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:43:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE4A1D131; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:43:49 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:43:48 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > In one word: tyranny. > > > > This happens all the time in the UK these days. You'd be amazed what > > suddenly becomes illegal all of a sudden, one of the most farcical was a > > law banning the consumption of T-bone steaks. > > I think what Terry means is not that you can't ban consumption of > T-bone steaks, but you can't arrest someone for consuming a > T-bone steak before the law came into effect. > > So this doesn't really prevent legislators from enacting silly > laws... only from persecuting people who did those things when > they were legal. Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it before the law changed. Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came in to effect. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 7:47:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE6637B835 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 07:47:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (rh2.bfm.org [216.127.220.195]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:48:41 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000324094743.00a5f220@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:47:43 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: References: <20000323232028H.jhix@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:33 24-03-2000 -0500, Pat Lynch wrote: >ESR, Jordan, and I were at an Open Source roundtable in New York City >about a year ago, and the ego thing was brought up. Lets face it, alot of >us are motivated by ego, in fact the majority of us are. ^^^^ Fact? Do you have any statistics from an objective research study to support this claim? Certainly not all of us are motivated by ego. I generally write software because I need to do something, and I cannot find software that does it the way I need it done, or occasionally because I cannot afford such software. I simply release that software because I assume that if I need it, someone else may need it as well. As long as it's written, and as long as I do not plan to sell it, I may as well give it away. Others may be profit motivated: Releasing free software helps build their portfolio, so they can find a decent paying job. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 8:22:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BAC637B747 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:22:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnmpurser@home.com) Received: from c37259a ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000324162215.PPAH12749.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@c37259a>; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:22:15 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: "'J McKitrick'" , Subject: RE: amazon email response Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:20:31 -0800 Message-ID: <000901bf95ac$e09c0ca0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <20000324150922.A89498@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's the same form letter I got when I closed my account a month or so ago. One really funny part about this situation is in Jeff Bezos's letter to Tim O'Reilly. Jeff claims that he will only enforce the patent against businesses that have acted in an anti-competitive manner! I started recommending Powells as an alternative to Amazon but read in the paper this morning that they're embroiled in a labor dispute. It's a "Union Shop or not" issue which I'm not comfortable supporting or fighting (no clear bad guy) so I'm looking for an alternative for online book buying. I'm trying to avoid the big guys and I want a good selection, rapid shipping, and a good web site. In short, Amazon without the patent issue. Anybody got any suggestions? John Purser *********************************************************************** Currently boycotting Amazon.com To find out why visit: http://perl.oreilly.com/cgi-bin/amazon_patent.comments.pl For an alternative visit: http://www.powells.com/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of J McKitrick Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 7:09 AM To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: amazon email response Hope this come out right.. i'm using attachments.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 8:33: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EDC237B815 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:32:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12YX13-000G4K-00; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:32:53 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA90171; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:32:53 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:32:53 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: John Purser Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: amazon email response Message-ID: <20000324163253.J89615@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000324150922.A89498@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <000901bf95ac$e09c0ca0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <000901bf95ac$e09c0ca0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com>; from johnmpurser@home.com on Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 08:20:31AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What's wrong with barnes and noble, other than being big? Or maybe Buy.com? I haven't checked either out. jm -- -------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org The spice must flow.... -------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 9: 7:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E81CF37B75C for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:07:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnmpurser@home.com) Received: from c37259a ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000324170714.RCBQ12749.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@c37259a>; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:07:14 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: "'J McKitrick'" Cc: Subject: RE: amazon email response Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:05:31 -0800 Message-ID: <001001bf95b3$2a24c280$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <20000324163253.J89615@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Big is all I've got against them really. I understand the economic forces that are collapsing and consolidating one market after another I just don't like it on a personal level. So I vote my economic $.02 by eating at the local restaurant instead of Macdonald's, I wear New Balance shoes (Good web site, good shoes, made in America) instead of Nike's, and I try to avoid "The Big National Guy" if there's a decent smaller alternative. Take operating systems for example... I'm not saying big is necessarily evil by definition. For instance in a world with as much malnourishment and outright starvation as we have I have a few problems with advocating preserving the family farm at the expense of the economies of scale that consolidation can bring. Some things are just sad, not bad. On the other hand as someone who grew up not only in the Southern US but in Appalachia I tend to be innately suspicious of anything that gets too big and when you cap that off by telling me I have no choice I tend to lay my ears back and get just a tad reactionary! As my buddy Merle says "You're walking on the fighting side of me!" FWIW John Purser *********************************************************************** Currently boycotting Amazon.com To find out why visit: http://perl.oreilly.com/cgi-bin/amazon_patent.comments.pl For an alternative visit: http://www.powells.com/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of J McKitrick Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 8:33 AM To: John Purser Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: amazon email response What's wrong with barnes and noble, other than being big? Or maybe Buy.com? I haven't checked either out. jm -- -------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org The spice must flow.... -------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 9:33:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4790437B71A for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:33:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10653; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:32:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:32:08 -0800 From: Matthew Hunt To: John Purser Cc: "'J McKitrick'" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: amazon email response Message-ID: <20000324093208.C9572@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <20000324150922.A89498@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <000901bf95ac$e09c0ca0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <000901bf95ac$e09c0ca0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com>; from johnmpurser@home.com on Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 08:20:31AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 08:20:31AM -0800, John Purser wrote: > I'm trying to avoid the big guys and I want a good selection, rapid > shipping, and a good web site. In short, Amazon without the patent issue. I recommend fatbrain.com; they have an excellent selection of technical books and a decent (and, it seems to me, expanding) selection of other books. In my experience, the claimed availabilty for an item is accurate. The search engine is a little weak, not having a good idea of "best match". A while back, an officemate and I (at Caltech) both placed our first orders with fatbrain within a day of each other, because they had some sort of promotion and we needed textbooks. Unprovoked, a representative telephoned us and set up a "corporate discount" for Caltech, which got us discounts and free shipping. In my book, that's pretty good service. Of course, they the guy who called did ask whether Caltech wasa 4-year school or some sort of junior college, but I won't hold that against them... They periodically send out good discount offers ($20 off $50 order, that kind of thing). All the email I've gotten from them has been useful to me, so I haven't tried to decline their email. Oh, they sent us free hats, too. -- Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 9:38:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alive.znep.com (alive.znep.com [207.167.15.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9746937B767 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:38:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA97236; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:37:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:37:23 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: J McKitrick Cc: John Purser , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: amazon email response In-Reply-To: <20000324163253.J89615@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, J McKitrick wrote: > What's wrong with barnes and noble, other than being big? Their total lack of a clue about security. Anyone who can steal your cookies (which is pretty easy for most people) can do whatever the heck they want with your account. If you use barnes and noble, you definitely want to make sure you have a separate "session" where you only login, use them, then log out explicitly. Don't go to other sites, read email with a HTML mail reader, etc. while you are logged in. Although Amazon has had some issues, they have barnesandnoble.com beat by a mile in this area. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 12: 1:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D1E37BB80 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:01:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA25464; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:01:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAjSaqNX; Fri Mar 24 13:00:51 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA08331; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:00:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003242000.NAA08331@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:00:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38DAEAFF.A0FE5F3@mail.ptd.net> from "Thomas M. Sommers" at Mar 23, 2000 11:11:43 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The reason this is so is that the US has a Constitutional > > premise that something which is not illegal can not be made > > illegal. This is called "ipos facto"; a loose translation > > is "a law after the fact". This is why you can own short > > That should be "ex post facto". You are correct. My Latin is rusty. Mea culpa! (8-)). It's been a while; I guess I should go reread the book "Macro Rehru Litho Phage"... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 12:18:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7220C37B63C for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:18:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA08986; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:18:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAQ_aqHr; Fri Mar 24 13:18:08 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA08726; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:18:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003242018.NAA08726@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:18:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 24, 2000 02:38:17 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > See . 1999 was the last year > > in which the patent was in effect. You will see that it has the > > same patent number as the one I referenced previously. > > That page still says, in March 2000, > More and more people are becoming aware that the reading and/or > writing of GIF images requires a license to use Unisys patented Lempel > Ziv Welch (LZW) data compression and decompression technology, > including United States Patent No. 4,558,302, .... > > So are they wilfully deceiving the public? No, not really. They are selling an idea, and the public is buying it for non-logical reasons. The public is willfully populated by morons, whose right to reproduce and vote is willfully protected by politicians, whose only possible chance of election is to maintain the population of morons. It's called a feedback loop. It is to be expected that morons will pay for free things, valueing them more highly for the fact that they have paid for them, and thus somehow invested them with more value than their otherwise identical free counterparts. ... "How do you know someone's crazy?" "Well, their wife, or their children, or their mom or their uncle, or someone else signs a piece of paper saying they're crazy." "And then you come and take them away and lock them up?" "Exactly." "What if they sign a piece of paper saying that they're not crazy?" "We tear it up. Crazy people will sign anything." -- Alan Sherman, _The Rape of the A.P.E._ Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 13:17:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BEAEC37B818 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:17:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 36614 invoked by uid 211); 24 Mar 2000 21:17:09 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 24 Mar 2000 21:17:09 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 02:47:09 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003242018.NAA08726@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > See . 1999 was the last year > > > in which the patent was in effect. You will see that it has the > > > same patent number as the one I referenced previously. > > > > That page still says, in March 2000, > > More and more people are becoming aware that the reading and/or > > writing of GIF images requires a license to use Unisys patented Lempel > > Ziv Welch (LZW) data compression and decompression technology, > > including United States Patent No. 4,558,302, .... > > > > So are they wilfully deceiving the public? > > No, not really. They are selling an idea, and the public is buying > it for non-logical reasons. Well I'm no lawyer (and know nothing of US law). But from what I can find from brief web searches, it seems that before the change in patent law, the lifetime for "utility patents" in the US was 17 years from date of issue, not 14 years. For "design patents" it was and continues to be 14 years from date of issue. LZW looks to me like a utility patent. http://www.heckel.org/congress/104cong/issues104/iss359.htm http://vpr2.admin.arizona.edu/ott/Guidebook/patbasic.htm (section "PATENT TERM") So it would seem that the LZW patent will expire only in 2002... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 14: 7:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C534637BB58 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 14:07:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r41.bfm.org [216.127.220.137]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:08:29 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000324160727.00a3b6c0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:07:27 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003242018.NAA08726@usr09.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:18 24-03-2000 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> So are they wilfully deceiving the public? > >No, not really. They are selling an idea, and the public is buying >it for non-logical reasons. > >The public is willfully populated by morons, whose right to >reproduce and vote is willfully protected by politicians, whose >only possible chance of election is to maintain the population >of morons. It's called a feedback loop. The worst thing they successfully intimidated Thomas Boutell (who is certainly NOT a moron) into recalling his gd and changing it to a PNG manager rather than GIF manager. The code in gd did NOT use LZW compression. But Unisys acted as if they held patent on the GIF file format. They used a very lame argument that gd tricks decoders into "thinking" they are LZW decoders even if they are not. What a crock! First of all, computers do not think. They just do what they are told. Even if they did think, Unisys does not have patent on thinking, they have patent on a very specific piece of technology, the LZW compression. If some software does not use that specific compression, then Unisys has no say about it. But they act as if the did. To illustrate the non-sense of their argument by analogy, suppose you got patent on a wall plug. You turn your lamp on by plugging it in, turn it off by pulling the plug, and everyone has to pay you for it. Then someone else invents a switch in the middle of a cord. You hardwire your lamp (connect it to electricity without a plug). Now you can turn it on or off by flipping a switch. It would be absurd to argue you are breaking a patent because though you are not using a wall plug, your lamp "thinks" you do. Unisys' argument against the use of GIF even without the LZW algortihm makes about the same amount of sense. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 15:13: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE53737B722 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:12:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03201; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:12:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAnyaqmg; Fri Mar 24 16:12:23 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA09499; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:12:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003242312.QAA09499@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: paul@originative.co.uk (Paul Richards) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:12:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> from "Paul Richards" at Mar 24, 2000 03:43:48 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > So this doesn't really prevent legislators from enacting silly > > laws... only from persecuting people who did those things when > > they were legal. > > Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since > it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it > before the law changed. > > Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came > in to effect. Cool. Which enthicity are they going to try to eliminate, after they are sure they have them all? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 15:24:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6283237B66A for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:24:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA17722; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:23:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAaua4HI; Fri Mar 24 16:23:30 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA10120; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:24:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003242324.QAA10120@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:24:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 25, 2000 02:47:09 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well I'm no lawyer (and know nothing of US law). > > But from what I can find from brief web searches, it seems that > before the change in patent law, the lifetime for "utility > patents" in the US was 17 years from date of issue, not 14 years. > For "design patents" it was and continues to be 14 years from > date of issue. LZW looks to me like a utility patent. Technically, it's a process patent, like "Bessemer Steel". > So it would seem that the LZW patent will expire only in 2002... My take on all this "intellectual property" BS is this: Fine; treat it as if it were real property. Then through adverse use, I can establish a prescriptive lien, which will allow me to continue using it without your permission. This is the same principle that allows your neighbor, who has parked in front of your house for 2 years, to continue parking there, even if you have bought a second car, and have no place to park it because your driveway has your first car in it. He has established a right to that spot, even though it is in front of your house, by virtue of you not stopping him. If Unisys wants to go after the UNIX "compress" utility, I think a case can be made for adverse use, especially with the case law history the software industry has built up in the apellate courts, blurring the distinction between real property and intellectual property for their own benefit. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 15:43:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A55E237BB8B for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:43:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e2P06OZ01615; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:06:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:06:24 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Brad Knowles Cc: Garance A Drosihn , Matthew Dillon , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Experts only please! (was Re: Preliminary SMP/BGL patch) Message-ID: <20000324160624.X21029@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200003241801.KAA14754@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 11:38:03PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Brad Knowles [000324 16:03] wrote: > At 2:57 PM -0500 2000/3/24, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > > At 10:01 AM -0800 3/24/00, Matthew Dillon wrote: > >> This is not a 'normal Matt patch' that 'just works'. Ok, it seems to > >> just work, but it's not a normal Matt patch. If there were a > >> designation before 'early alpha' this patch would get it. > > > > "Rough-draft proposal for early alpha version" > > "Theoretical basis for early access to code virtually guaranteed > to mess up your system in highly entertaining ways, although the > complete reinstall and rebuild might be rather annoying" "This code will make your dog go bald." -or- "Remeber the last time Alfred touched libc_r?" :) -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 16:57:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B57A37BD32 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:57:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([208.190.159.16]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FRY009A9DBZPD@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:57:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00819; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:07:47 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:07:47 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-reply-to: <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> To: Paul Richards Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: >Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> >> > > In one word: tyranny. >> > [snip] >Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since >it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it >before the law changed. > >Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came >in to effect. I hope they weren't foolish enough to actually hand them in. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 17: 8: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2637537BD4A for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:07:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06873; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:07:25 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <200003242324.QAA10120@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > This is the same principle that allows your neighbor, who has > parked in front of your house for 2 years, to continue parking > there, even if you have bought a second car, and have no place > to park it because your driveway has your first car in it. He > has established a right to that spot, even though it is in front > of your house, by virtue of you not stopping him. Assuming that you are talking about a public highway ("the street") and not your private property, then neither one of you has a "legal right" to it, never mind whose house it's in front of. It's strictly by convention that most people consider the space in front of their home "theirs," and most neighbors respect that. We have a kind of a funny situation with our neighbor, since there is a bit of street that's roughly one half a car length on his side, and one half on ours, with the bit on our side bordered by our driveway. He has more cars than he has room for, so he almost always is parked there. Since I usually don't need that space, that's fine with me. But, every once in a while I like to park there, mostly on hot sunny days, for two reasons. One, because that spot has the best shade, and two just to remind him what's what. :) If you are indeed talking about your property, that's a whole other topic. Now you're talking about squatter's rights, etc. However that problem is easily resolved. Just wait till the car's gone and build a fence. One of the base definitions of private property in the US is the right (ability) to exclude others from it. If the car never leaves on the other hand, that's a different kettle of fish. Doug -- "So, the cows were part of a dream that dreamed itself into existence? Is that possible?" asked the student incredulously. The master simply replied, "Mu." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 17:53:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F2837B5F2; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:53:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07678; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:53:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000324173549.041cecb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:36:19 -0700 To: Kris Kennaway , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Voxware is toast. Get used to it. (Re: Suggestions for impro Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:49 AM 3/22/2000 , Kris Kennaway wrote: >On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > 3.X -SOLID > > 4.X -STABLE > > 5.X -CURRENT > >Why stop there? > >3.X-SOLID >4.x-LIQUID >5.x-GAS s/GAS/VAPOR/ ;-) --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 17:53:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF9937B8F1 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:53:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07685; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:53:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000324175114.041d3950@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:56:55 -0700 To: W Gerald Hicks From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000323232028H.jhix@mindspring.com> References: <4.2.2.20000321221834.041727c0@localhost> <200003212351.QAA13462@usr08.primenet.com> <4.2.2.20000321221834.041727c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:20 AM 3/24/2000 , W Gerald Hicks wrote: >I didn't get it (the paper). ESR's assertion that ego gratification >is the primary motivational force behind the free software revolution >was a very negative impression I came away with. > >I couldn't disagree more. I believe that it's simply a matter of >craftsmen (and women :) asserting their power over the tools of their >trade. In some cases, that's true. And in some cases, anger plays a part. Many of Richard Stallman's early open source efforts were motivated by anger. The purpose of the FSF was, in fact, to exact revenge upon commercial software developers and Symbolics in particular. Likewise, OpenBSD can be said to be the result of animus between Theo de Raadt and a few of the NetBSD core team members. Many developers of GPLed code (though not Linus Torvalds) are likewise motivated by anger directed at Microsoft and/or other corporations which they feel are "evil." The motivating power of ire should not be underestimated. "Hell hath no daemon like a hacker scorned." --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 17:54: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D6F237B51E for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:54:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07688; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:53:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000324180053.041cbcb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:03:00 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003242000.NAA08331@usr09.primenet.com> References: <38DAEAFF.A0FE5F3@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:00 PM 3/24/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >You are correct. My Latin is rusty. Mea culpa! (8-)). > >It's been a while; I guess I should go reread the book "Macro >Rehru Litho Phage"... Remind me one day, if we happen to be physically in the same place, to play "The Ballad of Lorem Ipsum." --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 17:54:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ECD037B732 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:54:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07691; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:53:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000324180332.041cf530@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:04:13 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200003242018.NAA08726@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:17 PM 3/24/2000 , Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Well I'm no lawyer (and know nothing of US law). > >But from what I can find from brief web searches, it seems that >before the change in patent law, the lifetime for "utility >patents" in the US was 17 years from date of issue, not 14 years. That's correct. IIRC, LZW hasn't expired yet but will soon. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 17:54:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1F837B51E for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:54:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07682; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:53:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000324174630.041cb800@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:50:50 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003232352.QAA03123@usr08.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:52 PM 3/23/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >Patents filed after the cut-off date are 20 years from date of >filing, regardless of date of issue. > >The reason this is so is that the US has a Constitutional >premise that something which is not illegal can not be made >illegal. This is called "ipos facto"; That's "ex post facto." And it refers to making something illegal and then penalizing people who did it before the law was passed. You CAN penalize people who do it afterward. >a loose translation >is "a law after the fact". This is why you can own short >barrelled shotguns in the US, so long as they were made >before the law making them "illegal" went into effect. See above. Also, a patent makes nothing illegal; it grants an exclusive right. The most recent copyright extension law removed some material from the public domain. That would have been illegal, too, if this principle had applied. Alas, it wasn't. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 18: 3:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3178437B7C7 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:03:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07780; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:03:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000324185722.041cf6e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:03:05 -0700 To: Doug Barton , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200003242324.QAA10120@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:07 PM 3/24/2000 , Doug Barton wrote: > Assuming that you are talking about a public highway ("the >street") and not your private property, then neither one of you has a >"legal right" to it, never mind whose house it's in front of. It's >strictly by convention that most people consider the space in front of >their home "theirs," and most neighbors respect that. In our city, a long-standing ordinance gives the person who owns the property adjacent to the street priority when it comes to parking. He can have a notice posted on cars which are parked there for more than two days, and can have them towed if they're there continuously for more than a week. The law is this way, most likely, because Laramie is a college town. Students in college towns have been known to park their car in front of someone's house for a month and never move it. Also, if you live close to campus, students can sometimes consume all available on-street parking during classes. So, the law also allows a block to establish a "parking district" with restricted parking for non-residents. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 18:28:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C69DC37B6E9 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:28:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07113; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:28:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:28:14 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000324185722.041cf6e0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:07 PM 3/24/2000 , Doug Barton wrote: > > > Assuming that you are talking about a public highway ("the > >street") and not your private property, then neither one of you has a > >"legal right" to it, never mind whose house it's in front of. Assuming no local ordinance has been enacted to the contrary. > > It's > >strictly by convention that most people consider the space in front of > >their home "theirs," and most neighbors respect that. > > In our city, a long-standing ordinance -- "So, the cows were part of a dream that dreamed itself into existence? Is that possible?" asked the student incredulously. The master simply replied, "Mu." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 24 20:38:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3033437B637 for ; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:38:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA17929; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:36:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:36:47 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Paul Richards , Rahul Siddharthan , Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <20000324233647.A17882@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <200003242312.QAA09499@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200003242312.QAA09499@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 11:12:36PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not to kick in a gun control thread... On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 11:12:36PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > So this doesn't really prevent legislators from enacting silly > > > laws... only from persecuting people who did those things when > > > they were legal. > > > > Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since > > it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it > > before the law changed. > > > > Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came > > in to effect. > > Cool. Which enthicity are they going to try to eliminate, after > they are sure they have them all? Hmmm... Maybe the people-who-don't-own-rifles-and-shotguns enthicity? When the UN armies roll in, I think your deer rifle is the better choice than the Saturday Night Special. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 1: 5:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BE3E637B5AC for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 01:05:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 41061 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2000 09:05:10 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 25 Mar 2000 09:05:10 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:35:10 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000324174630.041cb800@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > See above. Also, a patent makes nothing illegal; it grants an > exclusive right. So it makes it illegal to duplicate the idea/process/design without permission from the patent-holder. Usual disclaimer: IANAL. > The most recent copyright extension law removed some material > from the public domain. That would have been illegal, too, > if this principle had applied. Alas, it wasn't. I'm a bit surprised by this. Are you saying that some material was placed in the public domain (since 50 years had already passed before the new law came in) and then withdrawn from the public domain? Can you give some examples? There must be several, since we are talking of a 20 year span. As far as I knew only material that would have soon expired, like Mickey Mouse, were affected. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 2:49:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com (gadolinium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C0537B5AC for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 02:49:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.73.194] (helo=parish.my.domain) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12Yo8y-0002Xi-00; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 10:50:13 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00675; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 10:49:27 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 10:49:27 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Jay Nelson Cc: Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <20000325104927.B234@parish> References: <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from noslenj@swbell.net on Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 06:07:47PM -0600 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 06:07:47PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: > > >Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> > >> > > In one word: tyranny. > >> > > [snip] > > >Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since > >it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it > >before the law changed. > > > >Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came > >in to effect. > > I hope they weren't foolish enough to actually hand them in. > Most of them did (there was a compensation scheme). The big difference of course is that over here most people realize that there is no real justification for *any* civilian, except farmers, to own firearms (we don't have grizzlies and rattlesnakes, so walking in the hills is safe). The law was introduced after the massacre at a school in Dunblane, Scotland, which was not unlike Columbine (sp?) in the US, except that the kids were only ~5 years old. > -- Jay > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 4:41:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neodymium.btinternet.com (neodymium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD8937B6C5 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 04:41:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.73.194] (helo=parish.my.domain) by ruthenium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12Yo0H-00041o-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 10:41:14 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00539 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 10:38:43 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 10:38:42 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Latest Mozilla, M14 Message-ID: <20000325103842.A234@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just d/l the latest version, M14, of Mozilla and it has made a big leap forward since the last one I tried, M12. Been using it for a couple of days now without much trouble. http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/m14/mozilla-FreBSD3x.M14.tar.gz -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 5:36:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2812337B56F for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 05:36:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C571D131; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:36:19 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:36:19 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" References: <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 06:07:47PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: > > > > >Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >> > > >> > > In one word: tyranny. > > >> > > > [snip] > > > > >Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since > > >it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it > > >before the law changed. > > > > > >Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came > > >in to effect. > > > > I hope they weren't foolish enough to actually hand them in. > > > > Most of them did (there was a compensation scheme). The big difference > of course is that over here most people realize that there is no real > justification for *any* civilian, except farmers, to own firearms (we > don't have grizzlies and rattlesnakes, so walking in the hills is > safe). Personally, I think they govt went a bit far because the massacres weren't caused by gun owners but by pschycopaths who are know massacring people with samurai swords instead, though admittedly there are fewer victims from a sword than there are from an automatic weapon. I think the few Olympic medals that Britain was still able to get in the shooting events suffered and I would have thought that there could have have been some dispensation for people such as them to carry on their sport. > The law was introduced after the massacre at a school in Dunblane, > Scotland, which was not unlike Columbine (sp?) in the US, except that > the kids were only ~5 years old. Yes, and I understand the reasoning for the law change but I think it was a knee jerk over reaction to the situation. Those who illegitimately need guns can still get them but those that had them for sport now cannot. I have no interest in guns, I've never owned one, have never shot one (except for an air rifle in an army open day when I was a kid) and have only ever seen one once and that was Jordan's :-) I just feel strongly about the civil liberties issue and the waning of rights that's occuring over here. The abolishment of the double jeapordy law being the next thing I'm going to be pissed off about, even though I'm fully in support of the Lawrence situation that's prodiving the excuse. Sometimes the solutions to problems have a greater impact than is justified. Paul. p.s. for overseas viewers, the lawrence case involved a racist murder where the white youths alleged to have murdered Stephen Lawrence have already been tried once but in a bungled case where the police involved in the inquiry have been alleged to have been racist themselves. The govt is now proposing to change the law to allow people to be tried more than once for the same crime. While I can see the reasoning for this in terms of the Lawrence case, the implications for the future are pretty scary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 6:36:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAAD437B547 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 06:36:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r9.bfm.org [216.127.220.105]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:37:02 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000325083610.00a3b200@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:36:10 -0600 To: Matthew Dillon From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Missing keyboard symbols Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003250103.RAA17731@apollo.backplane.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 17:03 24-03-2000 -0800, Matthew Dillon wrote: >: If you are seriously asking about the "Any" key, think about it for a >:second. The message doesn't say, "Push THE Any key ..." It says push any >:key. If that's too complicated, just press the space bar. > > The space bar? The SPACE BAR? Oh my god, I've been hitting the > wrong key for *YEARS*!!! You must have been working for the wrong company, Matt. Some companies just paste the word "ANY" on their space bars, simply because their computer experts were asked way too many times where the any key was. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 6:50:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5208937B928 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 06:50:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r9.bfm.org [216.127.220.105]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:51:09 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000325085011.00ac3590@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:50:11 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Voxware is toast. Get used to it. (Re: Suggestions for impro In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000324173549.041cecb0@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 17:36 24-03-2000 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >s/GAS/VAPOR/ ;-) Hey! I'm no vapor! :-) G.A.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 7: 1:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA6A037B56F for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:01:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r9.bfm.org [216.127.220.105]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 09:02:40 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000325090140.00a42660@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 09:01:40 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000324185722.041cf6e0@localhost> References: <200003242324.QAA10120@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 19:03 24-03-2000 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >Also, if you live close to campus, students can sometimes consume all >available on-street parking during classes. So, the law also allows a >block to establish a "parking district" with restricted parking for >non-residents. Seems to me instead of passing ordinances your city needs to build a college parking lot... Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 9: 9:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rock.ghis.net (rock.ghis.net [209.222.164.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DDEB37B5E4 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 09:09:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from argon.blackdawn.com ([209.69.196.116]) by rock.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA82568; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 09:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1F4E91A1A; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 12:08:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 12:08:24 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Latest Mozilla, M14 Message-ID: <20000325120824.K391@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <20000325103842.A234@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000325103842.A234@parish>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 10:38:42AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 10:38:42AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > Just d/l the latest version, M14, of Mozilla and it has made a big > leap forward since the last one I tried, M12. Been using it for a > couple of days now without much trouble. > > http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/m14/mozilla-FreBSD3x.M14.tar.gz I tested this a couple weeks ago and personally I found Netscape better in terms of accessibility and speed. My next try: Mozilla M17. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 13: 8:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC2C37B5FA for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:08:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05539; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:07:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38DD2A92.448BB7B9@gorean.org> Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:07:30 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0322 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > See above. Also, a patent makes nothing illegal; it grants an > > exclusive right. > > So it makes it illegal to duplicate the idea/process/design > without permission from the patent-holder. You are falling under the very common misperception about what "Illegal" means. The whole idea behind intellectual property protections like copyrights and patents is to give the owner legal standing to sue those who violate them. It's up to the patent owner to pursue violators in civil court. For the most part, the only time there are criminal penalties are involved is in the case of fraud. Doug -- "So, the cows were part of a dream that dreamed itself into existence? Is that possible?" asked the student incredulously. The master simply replied, "Mu." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 13:16:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C13837B974 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:16:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05638; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:14:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38DD2C3F.3F17470B@gorean.org> Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:14:39 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0322 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: Jay Nelson , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" References: <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 06:07:47PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: > > > > >Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >> > > >> > > In one word: tyranny. > > >> > > > [snip] > > > > >Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since > > >it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it > > >before the law changed. > > > > > >Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came > > >in to effect. > > > > I hope they weren't foolish enough to actually hand them in. > > > > Most of them did (there was a compensation scheme). The big difference > of course is that over here most people realize that there is no real > justification for *any* civilian, except farmers, to own firearms (we > don't have grizzlies and rattlesnakes, so walking in the hills is > safe). Actually what you have is a population that has been deluded into believing that the purpose of "civillians" owning firearms is to protect them from nature, as opposed to protecting them from their government. Just imagine how much easier the brits would have had it if those pesky (american) colonialists had not been armed. If you read the early writings of the american founding fathers they are very clear on this point. As an example, just look at what is happening in Australia. They systematically disarmed their citizens, first going after "assault" weapons, then handguns, rifles, shotguns, etc. All with perfectly reasonable sounding arguments about how much safer they would be. Now that the citizens can't fight back they are slowly but surely turning it into a police state. Draconinan censorship of the internet, and other extremely distasteful laws are being passed willy-nilly. The only thing anti-gun laws do is lull the simple into a false sense of security. Criminals will always have guns. Disarming the law abiding populace only serves the goals of tyrants. Doug -- "So, the cows were part of a dream that dreamed itself into existence? Is that possible?" asked the student incredulously. The master simply replied, "Mu." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 13:47:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from carbon.btinternet.com (carbon.btinternet.com [194.73.73.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3455B37B7F3 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:47:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [62.6.83.90] (helo=parish.my.domain) by carbon.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12YyPC-00066G-00; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 21:47:39 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00986; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 21:47:25 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 21:47:25 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Doug Barton Cc: Jay Nelson , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <20000325214724.B234@parish> References: <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DD2C3F.3F17470B@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38DD2C3F.3F17470B@gorean.org>; from Doug@gorean.org on Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 01:14:39PM -0800 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 01:14:39PM -0800, Doug Barton wrote: > Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 06:07:47PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > > > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: > > > > > > >Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > In one word: tyranny. > > > >> > > > > [snip] > > > > > > >Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since > > > >it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it > > > >before the law changed. > > > > > > > >Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came > > > >in to effect. > > > > > > I hope they weren't foolish enough to actually hand them in. > > > > > > > Most of them did (there was a compensation scheme). The big difference > > of course is that over here most people realize that there is no real > > justification for *any* civilian, except farmers, to own firearms (we > > don't have grizzlies and rattlesnakes, so walking in the hills is > > safe). > > Actually what you have is a population that has been deluded into > believing that the purpose of "civillians" owning firearms is to protect > them from nature, as opposed to protecting them from their government. Hmm, so IOW Lee Harvey Oswald was exercising his right to protect himself from JFK's government? > Just imagine how much easier the brits would have had it if those pesky > (american) colonialists had not been armed. If you read the early > writings of the american founding fathers they are very clear on this > point. IIRC, the "right to bear arms" dates back several hundred years (Pre-Civil War?) when the US government obviously needed an army but didn't want a large standing army for fear of the possibility of being overthrown by it so they granted the right to bear arms (in reality probably making it effectively mandatory) so that people could be conscripted literally at a moments notice (cavalry rides into town, sergeant walks into the saloon, "you, you, and you; you're in the army now; don't forget your gun"). That's a whole lot different to keeping a .357 Magnum stuffed in the waistband of your 501's nowadays. > > As an example, just look at what is happening in Australia. They > systematically disarmed their citizens, first going after "assault" > weapons, then handguns, rifles, shotguns, etc. All with perfectly > reasonable sounding arguments about how much safer they would be. Now > that the citizens can't fight back they are slowly but surely turning it > into a police state. Draconinan censorship of the internet, and other > extremely distasteful laws are being passed willy-nilly. > That's an extremely cynical view. I don't know about Australian gun law, perhaps someone from Oz would like to comment. > The only thing anti-gun laws do is lull the simple into a false sense > of security. Criminals will always have guns. Disarming the law abiding > populace only serves the goals of tyrants. The argument "criminals will always have guns" is, IMHO, a very lame one. Certainly hardened "professional" criminals will always be armed, but they have channels of supply. What strict gun laws do prevent is the casual armed crime, e.g. where kids can get their dad's handgun from a drawer at home. The recent tragic case over there when the 8(?) year old shot and killed a class-mate couldn't have happened with UK-type gun laws. > > Doug > -- > "So, the cows were part of a dream that dreamed itself into > existence? Is that possible?" asked the student incredulously. > The master simply replied, "Mu." > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 13:54:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neodymium.btinternet.com (neodymium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48AF37B983 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:54:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [62.6.83.90] (helo=parish.my.domain) by neodymium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12YyVL-0001ZA-00; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 21:54:00 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01030; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 21:54:10 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 21:54:10 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Will Andrews Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Latest Mozilla, M14 Message-ID: <20000325215410.C234@parish> References: <20000325103842.A234@parish> <20000325120824.K391@argon.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000325120824.K391@argon.blackdawn.com>; from andrews@technologist.com on Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 12:08:24PM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 12:08:24PM -0500, Will Andrews wrote: > On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 10:38:42AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Just d/l the latest version, M14, of Mozilla and it has made a big > > leap forward since the last one I tried, M12. Been using it for a > > couple of days now without much trouble. > > > > http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/m14/mozilla-FreBSD3x.M14.tar.gz > > I tested this a couple weeks ago and personally I found Netscape better > in terms of accessibility and speed. > I don't dispute that it is still a long way from perfect, but it has improved immensely since M12. > My next try: Mozilla M17. > It should be up with Netscape by then. > -- > Will Andrews > GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- > ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ > G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 14: 0:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112AB37B702; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:00:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA97147; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:00:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:00:44 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: V4.0 and Walnut Creek Subscriptions... In-Reply-To: <200003251455.GAA28504@cwsys.cwsent.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 25 Mar 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > I take it that the rumours about BSDI purchasing WC were correct. I > wonder what implications that will have on FreeBSD. I hope they'll be > as or more successful than RedHat. What rumours? This was all over slashdot, daemonnews, freebsd-hackers, freebsd-chat and elsewhere. The discussions (mostly ill-informed) wouldn't die down for weeks. Please don't start them again :-) Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 14:23:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D9D37B7EB for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:23:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([208.190.158.197]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS00038C0UJBZ@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 16:23:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03771; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 16:21:57 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 16:21:57 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-reply-to: <20000325104927.B234@parish> To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 25 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: >On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 06:07:47PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: >> On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: >> >> >Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> >> >> >> > > In one word: tyranny. >> >> > >> [snip] >> >> >Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since >> >it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it >> >before the law changed. >> > >> >Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came >> >in to effect. >> >> I hope they weren't foolish enough to actually hand them in. >> > >Most of them did (there was a compensation scheme). The big difference >of course is that over here most people realize that there is no real >justification for *any* civilian, except farmers, to own firearms (we >don't have grizzlies and rattlesnakes, so walking in the hills is >safe). By extension, then, there is no justification for any civilian to have encryption technology or open source since both can be used to cause far more harm than a hand gun. Unless I misread history, the hills of England weren't safe in 1940. England was also disarmed then. Why would you risk repeating the exercise? Once you start giving up freedom, when do you stop? Since the subject of this thread is: 'On "intelligent people" and "dangers...', does anyone see a connection with this and the hand-wringing over what BSD, Inc. may do? -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 14:28:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neodymium.btinternet.com (neodymium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5286E37B773 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:28:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [62.6.83.90] (helo=parish.my.domain) by neodymium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12Yz1u-0000Yb-00; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:27:39 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA01141; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:27:49 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:27:49 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Paul Richards Cc: Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <20000325222749.D234@parish> References: <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk>; from paul@originative.co.uk on Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 01:36:19PM +0000 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 01:36:19PM +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 06:07:47PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > > > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: > > > > > > >Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > In one word: tyranny. > > > >> > > > > [snip] > > > > > > >Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since > > > >it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it > > > >before the law changed. > > > > > > > >Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came > > > >in to effect. > > > > > > I hope they weren't foolish enough to actually hand them in. > > > > > > > Most of them did (there was a compensation scheme). The big difference > > of course is that over here most people realize that there is no real > > justification for *any* civilian, except farmers, to own firearms (we > > don't have grizzlies and rattlesnakes, so walking in the hills is > > safe). > > Personally, I think they govt went a bit far because the massacres > weren't caused by gun owners but by pschycopaths who are know massacring > people with samurai swords instead, though admittedly there are fewer > victims from a sword than there are from an automatic weapon. > The problem of course is that it is easier for these psychopaths to get their hands on firearms if civilians are allowed to keep them. > I think the few Olympic medals that Britain was still able to get in the > shooting events suffered and I would have thought that there could have > have been some dispensation for people such as them to carry on their > sport. > psychopath I can't make up my mind about the sport thing. The prime raison d'etre for firearms is to kill. > > > The law was introduced after the massacre at a school in Dunblane, > > Scotland, which was not unlike Columbine (sp?) in the US, except that > > the kids were only ~5 years old. > > Yes, and I understand the reasoning for the law change but I think it > was a knee jerk over reaction to the situation. Of course, it wasn't *just* Dunblane. It had happened before (Hungerford) and also at that school/kindergarten in the Midlands, not to mention regular shootings in many inner-city areas (Moss Side in Manchester springs to mind). > Those who illegitimately > need guns can still get them but those that had them for sport now > cannot. > > I have no interest in guns, I've never owned one, have never shot one > (except for an air rifle in an army open day when I was a kid) and have > only ever seen one once and that was Jordan's :-) JKH? Remind me to call him "Sir" if I ever meet him :) > I just feel strongly > about the civil liberties issue and the waning of rights that's occuring > over here. The problem with civil liberties is who is entitled to what rights? Too many do-gooders seem intent on making sure that criminals don't have their rights denied/eroded/abused by the police that the police are severely hampered in their work. If a police officer physically restrains a person (s)he is arresting they stand an increasing chance of being prosecuted for assault. The term "reasonable force" nowadays seems to mean "no contact". Ironically it was an American who summed it up on this very list some time ago when they said something along the lines of, "....end up like the British Bobby who can now only say 'Stop! and if you don't stop, I shall shout Stop! again'". Perhaps if those who preached about civil liberties focussed on the rights of victims more than the rights of criminals we may get somewhere. Publicly castrating a couple of dozen rapists with a blunt sword would prove a most effective deterrent I suspect, but that would have the civil liberties crowd up in arms (no pun intended). They'd much rather make sure the rapist had his rights under Section 43 protected. > The abolishment of the double jeapordy law being the next > thing I'm going to be pissed off about, even though I'm fully in support > of the Lawrence situation that's prodiving the excuse. Sometimes the > solutions to problems have a greater impact than is justified. > IIRC it is, and always has been, possible to be tried twice for the same crime, but only if major new evidence comes to light that would almost certainly have resulted in a different outcome in the original trial. I think though that it needs the approval of the Home Secretary or the House of Lords for this to happen. > Paul. > > p.s. for overseas viewers, the lawrence case involved a racist murder > where the white youths alleged to have murdered Stephen Lawrence have > already been tried once but in a bungled case where the police involved > in the inquiry have been alleged to have been racist themselves. The > govt is now proposing to change the law to allow people to be tried more > than once for the same crime. While I can see the reasoning for this in > terms of the Lawrence case, the implications for the future are pretty > scary. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 15:17:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tantalum.btinternet.com (tantalum.btinternet.com [194.73.73.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23ECB37B742 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 15:17:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [62.6.97.205] (helo=parish.my.domain) by tantalum.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12YzgT-0004QA-00; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 23:09:33 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01274; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 23:16:57 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 23:16:56 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Jay Nelson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-ID: <20000325231656.E234@parish> References: <20000325104927.B234@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from noslenj@swbell.net on Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 04:21:57PM -0600 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 04:21:57PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > On Sat, 25 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > >On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 06:07:47PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > >> On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: > >> > >> >Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > > In one word: tyranny. > >> >> > > >> [snip] > >> > >> >Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since > >> >it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it > >> >before the law changed. > >> > > >> >Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came > >> >in to effect. > >> > >> I hope they weren't foolish enough to actually hand them in. > >> > > > >Most of them did (there was a compensation scheme). The big difference > >of course is that over here most people realize that there is no real > >justification for *any* civilian, except farmers, to own firearms (we > >don't have grizzlies and rattlesnakes, so walking in the hills is > >safe). > > By extension, then, there is no justification for any civilian to have > encryption technology or open source since both can be used to cause > far more harm than a hand gun. Hmm, I don't think "Go ahead, punk, make my day" would have had quite the same impact if Clint had shoved a piece of paper with his PGP key written on it in the guy's face instead of a .357 Magnum :-P Seriously though, I understand what you are getting at but it isn't really a fair comparison. A gun has a very immediate and terminal effect. > Unless I misread history, the hills of > England weren't safe in 1940. England was also disarmed then. Why > would you risk repeating the exercise? Once you start giving up > freedom, when do you stop? > What freedom? I would say that the freedom to go about your business without the fear of being attacked, raped, stabbed, shot etc. transcends any freedom to own/carry a gun (or any weapon for that matter. I have a 13-year old daughter and her freedom is severely curtailed (by me and my wife) compared to the freedom we had at that age (early '70s). OK, so this isn't specifically because of guns, but because of a general increase in lawlessness which threatens her safety. Even so, she has had her freedom taken away. A popular TV programme over here is "Police, Camera, Action" which comprises footage from the video cameras used in police cars and helicopters and includes clips from many countries including the US. Whilst a lot of it is amusing and entertaining some of it is decidedly scary. One clip from an American police car showed the officer pulling over a car full of kids. He walked to the driver's door and the driver just shot him with a handgun. The officer was unhurt, apart from some heavy bruising, thanks to his bullet-proof vest. Although it didn't specify in the programme it is perfectly possible that the kid may have owned the gun legitimately. How can anyone justify the "freedom" to own firearms when that sort of thing happens? Do you own a gun? If so, why do you own it? Have you ever used it in anger? Americans and Britons will probably, for the most part, never agree on the subject of firearms as we grew up in countries whose gun laws are at opposite extremes. > Since the subject of this thread is: 'On "intelligent people" and > "dangers...', does anyone see a connection with this and the > hand-wringing over what BSD, Inc. may do? > Subject line changed :) > -- Jay > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 16: 5:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2B437B97B for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 16:05:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([208.190.158.90]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS0000JG5L2KL@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 18:05:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03927; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 17:28:04 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 17:28:04 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-reply-to: <20000325214724.B234@parish> To: Mark Ovens Cc: Doug Barton , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 25 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: [snip] We may be getting carried away, here;) >> Actually what you have is a population that has been deluded into >> believing that the purpose of "civillians" owning firearms is to protect >> them from nature, as opposed to protecting them from their government. > >Hmm, so IOW Lee Harvey Oswald was exercising his right to protect >himself from JFK's government? If Oswald made that shot, he was a better man than most of the military snipers I've known -- who were smart enough to get out alive. >> Just imagine how much easier the brits would have had it if those pesky >> (american) colonialists had not been armed. If you read the early >> writings of the american founding fathers they are very clear on this >> point. > >IIRC, the "right to bear arms" dates back several hundred years >(Pre-Civil War?) when the US government obviously needed an army but >didn't want a large standing army for fear of the possibility of being >overthrown by it so they granted the right to bear arms (in reality Has that fear, in any way, diminished? >probably making it effectively mandatory) so that people could be >conscripted literally at a moments notice (cavalry rides into town, That's what it _still_ is. >sergeant walks into the saloon, "you, you, and you; you're in the army >now; don't forget your gun"). That's a whole lot different to keeping >a .357 Magnum stuffed in the waistband of your 501's nowadays. Bull. It's _absolutely_ no different. Title 10, section 311 USC _clearly_ defines who is militia and what their obligations actually are. I can speak from experience about being conscripted on a moment's notice. And I'm on the hook until age 64. I think you watch too many movies;) >> As an example, just look at what is happening in Australia. They >> systematically disarmed their citizens, first going after "assault" From last reports, only 40% went along with it. I hope those numbers haven't changed. The 60% who kept their guns don't seem to have caused any trouble;) >> weapons, then handguns, rifles, shotguns, etc. All with perfectly >> reasonable sounding arguments about how much safer they would be. Now >> that the citizens can't fight back they are slowly but surely turning it >> into a police state. Draconinan censorship of the internet, and other >> extremely distasteful laws are being passed willy-nilly. History repeats itself:) >That's an extremely cynical view. I don't know about Australian gun >law, perhaps someone from Oz would like to comment. It's not cynical -- it's history. Read English history from the Third Crusade on. Hell, for that matter, read world history from 1958 on. The illusion that we are somehow different than past generations is a fatal mistake. In the manorial tradition of both England and the US, I have no doubt that HRM would conscript you in a heartbeat and throw you into some "social" campaigne where the enemy sees things quite differently -- and you will now be totally unprepared. The US managed to train Desert Storm troops in a matter of weeks on everything _except_ how to shoot. Illusions go to hell when you face an armed opponent who doesn't share your beliefs. >> The only thing anti-gun laws do is lull the simple into a false sense >> of security. Criminals will always have guns. Disarming the law abiding >> populace only serves the goals of tyrants. Only a tyrant would disarm the populace. Even Machiavelli advised against it. >The argument "criminals will always have guns" is, IMHO, a very lame I don't think it's lame -- it's what we are seeing;) >one. Certainly hardened "professional" criminals will always be armed, ... Who sell them to the soon to be hardened criminals who face no restraint? So, then, we rely on the local constabulary who don't want the get hurt any more than do we? Sounds like a losing proposition to me. >but they have channels of supply. What strict gun laws do prevent is >the casual armed crime, e.g. where kids can get their dad's handgun The _only_ restraint against the "casual" violence (I have no idea what that oxymoron means) is to have an armed populace. You have to raise the cost of entry beyond acceptable limits. >from a drawer at home. The recent tragic case over there when the 8(?) >year old shot and killed a class-mate couldn't have happened with >UK-type gun laws. So, then, any other weapon would have been acceptable? Or, perhaps the 8 year old got the gun from a "hardened" criminal and _knew_ no one could defend against him? The argument is specious and recursive. Explain that to the 8 year old's classmate who died because no adult could stop it. This debate won't be resolved on this forum. All I can tell you is this: I will never again gamble my life for someone who was willing to be disarmed. History convinces me otherwise. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 22:44:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E2E137B90E for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:44:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r33.bfm.org [216.127.220.129]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:45:49 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000326004459.00a9b260@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:44:59 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <20000325214724.B234@parish> References: <38DD2C3F.3F17470B@gorean.org> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DD2C3F.3F17470B@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 21:47 25-03-2000 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: >Hmm, so IOW Lee Harvey Oswald was exercising his right to protect >himself from JFK's government? Abusus non tollit usum. Roughly translated: Abuse is no excuse to take away use. It is historically interesting that the Japanese who used to carry two swords have developed the most polite culture on Earth. It just makes little sense to be rude when the other guy can cut your head off. :-) Again, Japanese history shows that weapon bans are worthless. When Okinawans were banned from carrying weapons, they turned a common farming tool into a powerful weapon, now known as nunchaku. The problem with children shooting children is not caused by the existence of weapons but by lack of education. Children see movies in which someone takes a dozen gun hits and continues moving. So, they don't realize what guns can do. If, instead, they were taken to a firing range and got to experiment with those guns, they would gain healthy respect to the damage they can do and would be less likely to shoot someone. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 22:55:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D0A437B98E for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:55:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA02104; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 01:53:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 01:53:10 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Mark Ovens Cc: Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-ID: <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000325104927.B234@parish> <20000325231656.E234@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000325231656.E234@parish>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 11:16:56PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 11:16:56PM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 04:21:57PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > > On Sat, 25 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > >On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 06:07:47PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > > >> On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: > > >> > > >> >Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> > > In one word: tyranny. > > >> >> > > > >> [snip] > > >> > > >> >Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since > > >> >it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it > > >> >before the law changed. > > >> > > > >> >Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came > > >> >in to effect. > > >> > > >> I hope they weren't foolish enough to actually hand them in. > > >> [snip] > > Unless I misread history, the hills of > > England weren't safe in 1940. England was also disarmed then. Why > > would you risk repeating the exercise? Once you start giving up > > freedom, when do you stop? > > > > What freedom? I would say that the freedom to go about your business > without the fear of being attacked, raped, stabbed, shot etc. > transcends any freedom to own/carry a gun (or any weapon for that > matter. > > I have a 13-year old daughter and her freedom is severely curtailed > (by me and my wife) compared to the freedom we had at that age (early > '70s). OK, so this isn't specifically because of guns, but because of > a general increase in lawlessness which threatens her safety. Even so, > she has had her freedom taken away. But how much of that is real and how much is perception? I don't have crime figures for GB at my finger tips, but I suspect things have not changed all that much in real numbers since the 70's. I'm a USA'n and I happen to know that _reported_ crimes and people's perception of the crime rate have steadily increased, while the actual occurance of crimes has not really changed all that much and has definately dropped in the last decade. (Note I am strictly talking violent crime; like those Mark listed.) > A popular TV programme over here is "Police, Camera, Action" which > comprises footage from the video cameras used in police cars and > helicopters and includes clips from many countries including the US. > Whilst a lot of it is amusing and entertaining some of it is decidedly > scary. One clip from an American police car showed the officer pulling > over a car full of kids. He walked to the driver's door and the driver > just shot him with a handgun. The officer was unhurt, apart from some > heavy bruising, thanks to his bullet-proof vest. Although it didn't > specify in the programme it is perfectly possible that the kid may > have owned the gun legitimately. How can anyone justify the "freedom" > to own firearms when that sort of thing happens? Well, right there we see a problem with how the media focuses on the extremes. Police officers have been shot by legal and illegal guns as long as their have been guns and police. You bring this up like it happens all of the time, and it does not. We just get it in our faces every single time it does, makes good press. You point out that you do not know if the gun is legal or illegal... so what is the weight of the argument? > Do you own a gun? If so, why do you own it? Have you ever used it in > anger? No. I don't. No. But the last one is a good point. If you own a gun, you are more likely to be killed by it than any other. You are also more likely to be killed by a gun than someone who does not own one. Safer for everyone if you don't have it; someone else might use _your_ gun in anger on _you._ > Americans and Britons will probably, for the most part, never agree on > the subject of firearms as we grew up in countries whose gun laws are > at opposite extremes. Oh, well, as a USA'n, I must say things probably are not too different. I think any arguments that handguns and assault weapons have any redeeming quailities is silly, look at the numbers. I grew up around rifles and shotguns, and I see value beyond the risks. And for those who are defending themselves from the Feds, ask that crew at Waco or Ruby Ridge how well that works. If you're a small group and the gov't wants you, it don't matter how many guns you have. There were injustices and abuses of power there, but the guns on either side did not help at all. Personally, I'm not afraid of the Feds turning all bad on us because (a) they just are not that smart or have the vision (remember a President only serves 8 years max, if he can't disarm enough before his term is up and declares martial law, why start the process?) to plan something like that and (b) I know too many military people and they are the most patriotic bunch around and are not about to be part of a military state (and would not be tricked into it because of (a)). The ATF, FBI, NSA, etc. don't give me warm fuzzies, but they _are_ accountable soley by the fact that if they piss off the people enough, then they piss off Congress enough, then they don't get $$$... And that is the worst fear of any gov't agency, cuts in appropriations. One of the things the Founding Fathers did get right (even if some ammendments about bearing arms were written too vaguely), give Congress the purse strings. It costs the tax payer some serious pain in pork barrel money, but it's worth the popular control on the rest. OK, give the Brit Parliament for being the model there. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 22:58: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3889437B8A7 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:58:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r33.bfm.org [216.127.220.129]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:58:59 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:58:10 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <20000325222749.D234@parish> References: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 22:27 25-03-2000 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: >Perhaps if those who preached about civil liberties focussed on the >rights of victims more than the rights of criminals we may get >somewhere. The victims have the right to carry firearms. Unfortunately, most people do not carry them, many would not even know how to use them. Had the victims been armed and trained, most of them would not have been victimized. Criminals would be less likely to commit violent crimes if they expected most people to be armed and trained. I used to be a volunteer deputy sheriff for six years. Before that, I never owned a firearm. When I became a deputy I quickly found out that most police officers I talked to wished every citizen were armed. At about that time a gunman walked into a California McDonald's and massacred people there. My firearms instructor was quick to point out that if at least one other person inside had a gun and knew how to use it, it would have been the gunman who'd end up massacred. Frankly, I believe the law should not try to ban firearms. It should require everyone except Buddhists to own and carry a firearm all the time. And, of course, to know how to use it properly. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message