From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 0: 9: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pug.chroot.net (pug.chroot.net [208.185.49.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E51A37B709 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:08:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeremym@chroot.net) Received: from pug.chroot.net (IDENT:jeremym@pug.chroot.net [208.185.49.166]) by pug.chroot.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA22678 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 03:09:03 -0400 Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 03:09:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy McLeod To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! In-Reply-To: <20000716034233.A84618@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Auf Jul 16, 2000, an 03:42, Ollivier Robert besagt dieses: >According to Linh Pham: >> I think it would be more appropriate to ask... what is the speed of a >> swallow. > >The African or the European one? Laden or unladen? -jeremy -- Gilbert's Discovery: Any attempt to use the new super glues results in the two pieces sticking to your thumb and index finger rather than to each other. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 10:30:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durango.picus.com (durango.picus.com [209.100.20.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB44037B5A0; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:30:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from troy@picus.com) Received: from abyss [209.100.22.250] by durango.picus.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A07F11A0026; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:27:27 -0400 From: "Troy Settle" To: "Kris Kennaway" , "Francisco Reyes" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Subject: RE: Is Stable really stable? Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:29:46 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -STABLE is /very/ stable. Sure, some funky stuff sneaks in once in a while, but like Kris said, it's just a matter of keeping up with the -stable mailing list and choosing your target carefully. If you miss, then reload, take aim, and try again :) ** > The recent changes in the way of making new kernels plus the ** ** Repeat after me: it's not a recent change - people just ** didn't get the ** message until it was rammed down their throats recently. I confess, I've not been keeping up with things very well, but what's changed in the way that kernels are built? I don't remember doing anything other than: cd /usr/src/sys/i386/conf cp GENERIC MYKERNEL vi MYKERNEL config MYKERNEL cd ../../compile/MYKERNEL make depend all install reboot Which seems to work equally well on my 2.2.8-STABLE, 3.2-STABLE, and 4.0-STABLE boxes. I'm quite positive it was the same as far back as 2.1.5 (when I first got serious about FreeBSD). -- Troy Settle Network Analyst Picus Communications 540.633.6327 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 13:27:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hellasnet.gr (mail.hellasnet.gr [212.54.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FAF837B552 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (ppp4.patr.hellasnet.gr [212.54.197.19]) by mail.hellasnet.gr (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA01618; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:27:31 +0200 (GMT) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.10.2/8.10.2) id e6GKRIN75444; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:27:18 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:27:18 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mark Ovens Cc: Brett Glass , "Thomas M. Sommers" , "Jason C. Wells" , Linh Pham , Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! Message-ID: <20000716232718.C75200@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000715125922.04e36830@localhost> <3970E35A.EB9EF25A@mail.ptd.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000715182848.04e2ab90@localhost> <20000716025018.I241@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20000716025018.I241@parish>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 02:50:18AM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 02:50:18AM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: >On Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 06:29:30PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >> At 04:19 PM 7/15/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >> >> >Umm. What ways less than a duck? :) >> >> >> >> Why a duck? ;-) >> > >> >Why a fence? >> >> I don't know; the fence was mysteriously stolen. >> >> And I can't figure out why anyone would take a fence. > > In a world without fences, there's no need for Gates. So, it was a penguin that stole the fence. *duck* -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > Public PGP key at: finger -l keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 18:23:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [208.11.142.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D89237B7A7 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:23:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA16169 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:23:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200007170123.VAA16169@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:24:24 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Looking for X email client Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Any suggestions on an X email client? I just tried "spruce" and it was horrible. Not only it crashed continuously, it even froze the entire machine. The first time in 5 years using FreeBSD that a program freezes the whole machine. I could not even ssh in from another computer. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 18:24:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C514F37B72E for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:24:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id e6H1L8N06954; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:21:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Mark Ovens , Brett Glass , "Thomas M. Sommers" , "Jason C. Wells" , Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! In-Reply-To: <20000716232718.C75200@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Or would that be Larry Ellison or Scott McNealy? :) // Linh Pham // // Proud supporter of FreeBSD and OpenBSD // FreeBSD - http://www.freebsd.org // OpenBSD - http://www.openbsd.org /* "Oregon, n.: Eighty billion gallons of water with no place to go on Saturday night." */ On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 02:50:18AM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > >On Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 06:29:30PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >> At 04:19 PM 7/15/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > >> >> >Umm. What ways less than a duck? :) > >> >> > >> >> Why a duck? ;-) > >> > > >> >Why a fence? > >> > >> I don't know; the fence was mysteriously stolen. > >> > >> And I can't figure out why anyone would take a fence. > > > > In a world without fences, there's no need for Gates. > > So, it was a penguin that stole the fence. *duck* > > -- > Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > > Public PGP key at: finger -l keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 18:35: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 575DB37B7A7 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:35:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 28766 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2000 01:34:54 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 17 Jul 2000 01:34:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 19726 invoked by uid 211); 17 Jul 2000 01:34:53 -0000 Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:04:52 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: Looking for X email client Message-ID: <20000717070452.B19676@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <200007170123.VAA16169@vulcan.addy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007170123.VAA16169@vulcan.addy.com>; from fran@reyes.somos.net on Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 09:24:24PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes said on Jul 16, 2000 at 21:24:24: > Any suggestions on an X email client? > I just tried "spruce" and it was horrible. Not only it crashed > continuously, it even froze the entire machine. The first time > in 5 years using FreeBSD that a program freezes the whole > machine. I could not even ssh in from another computer. Surely that has to be a bug in something other than spruce. A userland program run by an unprivileged user should not freeze the whole machine? As for X email clients, there seem to be several new ones under development. Of the stable ones, netscape's doesn't seem too bad: at least it doesn't chew up the message formatting the way most windows software do. I've used it only briefly, though. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 19:21:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [208.11.142.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A9D37B70A for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:21:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA17646; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:20:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200007170220.WAA17646@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:21:07 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: <20000717070452.B19676@physics.iisc.ernet.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Looking for X email client Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:04:52 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >As for X email clients, there seem to be several new ones under >development. Such as? >Of the stable ones, netscape's doesn't seem too bad: I have never thought much of Netscape's mail. :-( francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 19:48:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from radius.city-guide.com (radius.cityisp.net [216.2.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DA8537B83D for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:48:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@cityisp.net) Received: from enitech (unverified [216.2.8.218]) by radius.city-guide.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.2.181) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:00:04 -0400 Message-ID: <009d01bfef99$c9887020$da0802d8@CityGuide.com> From: "Chris Lynch" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" References: <200007170123.VAA16169@vulcan.addy.com> Subject: Ide problem Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:50:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org evening, I have an alpha machine w wide SCSI, anyways.. it has a 12 gig IDE drive that we want to dump all of the logs to. During the installation , everything went fine, it found the IDE drive and it newfs' with not errors. Now, after installation, as it mounts the partition, booting halts and I'm presented with the good ol "Hit Enter for /bin/sh". I run an fsck and basically I get "Device not configured". There is an entry in /dev for /dev/ad0e. DO I need to link the raw device to it? Or am I going crazy. I'll admit I am really tired and my brain has cramped. Thanks Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 20: 2:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from radius.city-guide.com (radius.cityisp.net [216.2.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43DA037B8DD for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:02:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@cityisp.net) Received: from enitech (unverified [216.2.8.218]) by radius.city-guide.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.2.181) with SMTP id ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:13:44 -0400 Message-ID: <00b001bfef9b$b21e1af0$da0802d8@CityGuide.com> From: "Chris Lynch" To: "Chris Lynch" , "FreeBSd Chat list" References: <200007170123.VAA16169@vulcan.addy.com> <009d01bfef99$c9887020$da0802d8@CityGuide.com> Subject: Re: Ide problem Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:04:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Of course, the damned thing could be scrap metal. > > I have an alpha machine w wide SCSI, anyways.. it has a 12 gig IDE drive > that > we want to dump all of the logs to. During the installation , everything > went fine, it found the IDE drive and it newfs' with not errors. Now, after > installation, as it mounts the partition, booting halts and I'm presented > with the good ol "Hit Enter for /bin/sh". I run an fsck and basically I get > "Device not configured". There is an entry in /dev for /dev/ad0e. DO I need > to link the raw device to it? Or am I going crazy. I'll admit I am really > tired and my brain has cramped. > > Thanks > Chris > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 20:32:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB3E37B72F for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:32:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA06493; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:31:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:31:25 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: Looking for X email client In-Reply-To: <200007170123.VAA16169@vulcan.addy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: :Any suggestions on an X email client? :I just tried "spruce" and it was horrible. Not only it crashed :continuously, it even froze the entire machine. The first time :in 5 years using FreeBSD that a program freezes the whole :machine. I could not even ssh in from another computer. What's wrong with a terminal based one? You can do xterm -e foo so you can launch it from a menu or a desktop icon if you feel the need. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 22:10:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durango.picus.com (durango.picus.com [209.100.20.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F4E137BAAE for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:10:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from troy@picus.com) Received: from abyss [209.100.22.250] by durango.picus.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4A5204015E; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:07:49 -0400 From: "Troy Settle" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Francisco Reyes" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Subject: RE: Looking for X email client Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:10:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: <20000717070452.B19676@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ** ** Francisco Reyes said on Jul 16, 2000 at 21:24:24: ** > Any suggestions on an X email client? ** > I just tried "spruce" and it was horrible. Not only it crashed ** > continuously, it even froze the entire machine. The first time ** > in 5 years using FreeBSD that a program freezes the whole ** > machine. I could not even ssh in from another computer. ** ** Surely that has to be a bug in something other than spruce. A ** userland program run by an unprivileged user should not freeze the ** whole machine? Please tell us that you're not running X, and subsequently spruce, as root. ** ** As for X email clients, there seem to be several new ones under ** development. Of the stable ones, netscape's doesn't seem too bad: at ** least it doesn't chew up the message formatting the way most windows ** software do. I've used it only briefly, though. ** Evolution looks quite promising. There's a screenshot at http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/20000400-jacob-big. If it works half as good as it looks, I'm sure I'll be more than happy with it on my desktop. You can read about it at http://www.helixcode.com/apps/evolution.php3. It's up to a 3rd preview release, not sure how long until the developers consider it to be even of beta quality. I plan to install it as-is just as soon as I find the time to work my way through it (There's no port, and I've just recently installed X after nearly 5 years of working with FreeBSD and Linux. It'll prolly take me a while :) -Troy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 23:27:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cecov.masternet.it (cecov.masternet.it [194.184.65.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AA7437B6A8 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:27:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy.scotty.masternet.it (modem32.masternet.it [194.184.65.42]) by cecov.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA43433; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:15:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000717081816.029aef08@194.184.65.7> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.7 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:25:58 +0200 To: Francisco Reyes From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: Looking for X email client Cc: FreeBSd Chat list In-Reply-To: References: <200007170123.VAA16169@vulcan.addy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16/07/2000, David Scheidt wrote: >On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: > >:Any suggestions on an X email client? >:I just tried "spruce" and it was horrible. Not only it crashed >:continuously, it even froze the entire machine. The first time >:in 5 years using FreeBSD that a program freezes the whole >:machine. I could not even ssh in from another computer. > > >What's wrong with a terminal based one? You can do xterm -e foo so you can >launch it from a menu or a desktop icon if you feel the need. I have installed balsa (in the ports) and it is ok. A lot (too many?) dependencies in the port but perhaps all necessary. If you install also procmail you can easily filter message and organize them as you like... Btw I prefer to use mutt in a color xterm :-) I continue to think Eudora (that I use when I am under windog, like now) is the best email program ever made, I don't understand why at Qualcomm they are not planning at least a Linux version. Surely the linux box out are more than the macs and they could reach also other OSes like *BSD under linux emulation. Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 16 23:44: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 23F2037B782 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:43:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 29389 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2000 06:43:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 17 Jul 2000 06:43:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 11573 invoked by uid 211); 17 Jul 2000 06:43:38 -0000 Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:13:38 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Scheidt Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: Looking for X email client Message-ID: <20000717121338.B11465@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <200007170123.VAA16169@vulcan.addy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 10:31:25PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt said on Jul 16, 2000 at 22:31:25: > On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > :Any suggestions on an X email client? > :I just tried "spruce" and it was horrible. Not only it crashed > :continuously, it even froze the entire machine. The first time > :in 5 years using FreeBSD that a program freezes the whole > :machine. I could not even ssh in from another computer. > > > What's wrong with a terminal based one? You can do xterm -e foo so you can > launch it from a menu or a desktop icon if you feel the need. That's what I do too. You can set up helpers for various attachments. And if you run it in a terminal like rxvt with suitable resource settings, and it beeps for new mail (like pine does and mutt can be made to do), it automatically de-iconifies -- which is rather nice. The other "in development" ones which I was referring to were balsa, evolution (already mentioned), kmail (actually this is supposed to be stable, but I don't know) and magellan. I've read good things about xfmail too. I've never used any of these, so I have absolutely no opinion. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 17 4: 7:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD4737B8C8 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:07:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA87047; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:06:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:06:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: Looking for X email client In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000717081816.029aef08@194.184.65.7> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Jul 2000, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: >At 16/07/2000, David Scheidt wrote: >>On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: >> >>:Any suggestions on an X email client? >>:I just tried "spruce" and it was horrible. Not only it crashed >>:continuously, it even froze the entire machine. The first time >>:in 5 years using FreeBSD that a program freezes the whole >>:machine. I could not even ssh in from another computer. >> >> >>What's wrong with a terminal based one? You can do xterm -e foo so you can >>launch it from a menu or a desktop icon if you feel the need. > >I have installed balsa (in the ports) and it is ok. A lot (too many?) >dependencies in the port but perhaps all necessary. If you install also >procmail you can easily filter message and organize them as you like... > >Btw I prefer to use mutt in a color xterm :-) > >I continue to think Eudora (that I use when I am under windog, like now) is >the best email program ever made, I don't understand why at Qualcomm they >are not planning at least a Linux version. Surely the linux box out are >more than the macs and they could reach also other OSes like *BSD under >linux emulation. Then again they put out qpopper for unix too and look at the holes, do you want a X email client with that many holes also? :)) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 17 4:13:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [208.11.142.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85D837B65E for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:13:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA40642; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:13:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200007171113.HAA40642@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "David Scheidt" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:06:41 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: <20000717121338.B11465@physics.iisc.ernet.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Looking for X email client Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:13:38 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I've read good things about xfmail too xfmail doesn't compile from ports anymore. It wasn't even finding the right file. I patched up the port to pickup the latest file, but it doesn't compile. It gives an error about some conversion problem. Moreover, xfmail is no longer been developed. They are moving to a new toolkit instead of xforms. I believe they will now us GTK and the new program is called Archimedes. No new version released yet. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 17 9:11:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EEB37BA74 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:11:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA58329; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:10:49 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:10:49 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD In-Reply-To: <20000713021526.A2015@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,37514,00.html > > Has anyone asked for a .bsd top level domain? > IM*H*O both would be pretty needless, to put it mildly. > - Rahul > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 17 14: 1: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B13D537C0FD for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:00:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.255.98.178]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000717210054.LBHQ26680.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:00:54 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA02524; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:00:36 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:00:36 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Linh Pham Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Brett Glass , "Thomas M. Sommers" , "Jason C. Wells" , Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! Message-ID: <20000717220036.B240@parish> References: <20000716232718.C75200@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from lplist@q.closedsrc.org on Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 06:21:08PM -0700 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 06:21:08PM -0700, Linh Pham wrote: > > Or would that be Larry Ellison or Scott McNealy? :) > :) Just to change the subject slightly, I've just been watching a TV program about some work being done in the US (the PATH project) on road safety which includes some special lanes on a San Diego freeway where they had a line of cars linked together by a comms system that were driving along about a car's length apart at 60mph. The presenter asked one of the engineers what they were doing to deal with potential computer failures, to which the engineer replied: "...as anyone who has a PC on their desk knows, the number of times their Microsoft operating system crashes shows that is a real problem we have to try and overcome" Guess they've never heard of FreeBSD :) > // Linh Pham > // > // Proud supporter of FreeBSD and OpenBSD > // FreeBSD - http://www.freebsd.org > // OpenBSD - http://www.openbsd.org > > /* "Oregon, n.: > Eighty billion gallons of water > with no place to go on > Saturday night." > */ > > > On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 02:50:18AM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > > >On Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 06:29:30PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > >> At 04:19 PM 7/15/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >> >> >Umm. What ways less than a duck? :) > > >> >> > > >> >> Why a duck? ;-) > > >> > > > >> >Why a fence? > > >> > > >> I don't know; the fence was mysteriously stolen. > > >> > > >> And I can't figure out why anyone would take a fence. > > > > > > In a world without fences, there's no need for Gates. > > > > So, it was a penguin that stole the fence. *duck* > > > > -- > > Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > > > Public PGP key at: finger -l keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr > > > -- If I buy a copy of WinDelete, and it doesn't delete Windows, am I entitled to my money back? ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 17 17: 1:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (chilled.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F40B637B538 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:01:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25197; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:01:03 +1200 (NZST) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:01:03 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: changing a name server at INTERNIC Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: Gregory Sutter , "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <397446FF.17905.3EF3ABD8@localhost> References: "Dan Langille"'s message of "Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:00:22 +1200" In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16 Jul 2000, at 2:57, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Dan Langille" writes: > > It's not just US$12.50 AFAIK. There are ten domains in question. And > > that's not much money if one has lots of money in the first place. I do > > not have such money. Having had only 2 months of paid work in the past > > ten, it is an expense I an not prepared to meet right now. > > The FreeBSD Diary is quite a valuable resource for FreeBSD users, > especially fresh converts. Thank you. > Have you tried asking BSDi for support? A good suggestions. BSDi (mostly as Walnut Creek, Bob Bruce especially) have helped me a great deal in the past and I don't want to ask them for more unless I can avoid it. At present, I'm in the process of changing the name servers, as registered with Network Solutions, from my name server to another name server. When that is completed and I can see the changes in the WHOIS database, I'll delete my name server from Network Solution's database. Then I'll add my new name server (new in name only, it's the same IP address) back into their database. This whole process should be finished by the end of the week. I might be able to do it faster, but I like to stop after each stage and let the WHOIS database catch up with reality. -- Dan Langille [I'm looking for more work] The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 17 17:26: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E1B937B6C8 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b115.otenet.gr [195.167.121.243]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e6I0NDO22630; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:23:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.10.2/8.10.2) id e6I0QSI81124; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:26:28 +0300 (EEST) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:26:27 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Software and failure (was: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED!) Message-ID: <20000718032627.A81069@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 10:00:36PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: ... > "...as anyone who has a PC on their desk knows, the number of > times their Microsoft operating system crashes shows that is > a real problem we have to try and overcome" > > Guess they've never heard of FreeBSD :) This belief that any given piece of software has the right to crash in all the most unexpected moments, is in general one of the bad things one gets accustomed to when he has never noticed that there are far more reliable, and more stable pieces of software around. This is actually one of the common characteristics of almost all the Windows users I've ever known. *sigh* -- giorgos keramidas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 17 17:55:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B301637B617 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:55:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA41932 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:25:31 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:25:31 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Message-ID: <20000718102531.F17054@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Forwarded message from dan@shearer.org ----- > Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:32:50 +0930 (CST) > To: linuxsa@linuxsa.org.au > > Or, "additional query words remove disappear delete". > > Someone just posted to the Samba team along the following lines: "I > thought I would store my W2K Roaming Profile on my Samba server, just to > make me feel safer. Everything worked perfectly. Then I went to log off, > but it was taking forever. Then I noticed my Linux server's hard drive > light! After a quick check I switched off the power and then restarted in > single user mode. Large amounts of my home directory were gone!" > > For the information of readers who run mixed environments, and also for > anyone who likes a good laugh, here is the Microsoft Knowledgebase > article about the above situation. You don't need Samba to make it happen. > > http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q182/0/79.ASP?LN=EN-US&SD=gn&FR=0 > > Files Deleted from Home Directory on Logoff > > The information in this article applies to: > > Microsoft Windows NT Server version 4.0 > Microsoft Windows NT Server, Enterprise Edition version 4.0 > Microsoft Windows NT Workstation version 4.0 > Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional > Microsoft Windows 2000 Server > Microsoft Windows 2000 Advanced Server > > SYMPTOMS > > When a user logs off, all files in the home directory are deleted. > > > CAUSE > > Having both a Home Directory and Roaming Profile set to the same path is > a common cause of this. > > > RESOLUTION > > To correct this problem, perform the following steps: > > 1.Start User Manager for Domains, and select the User's properties. > > 2.Under the Profile properties, specify a profile path that is > different from the home directory path. > > It is acceptable to make the profile directory a subdirectory of the > home directory. > > For example: \\Server\Share\HomeDirectory\Profile. > > > MORE INFORMATION > > In the Windows NT 4.0 profiles and policies white paper ( > http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/management/deployment/planguide/prof_policies.asp), > there is documentation concerning the roaming profile path encompassing > the home directory path. > > Additional query words: remove disappear delete > > Keywords : ntdomain > Version : WINDOWS:2000; winnt:4.0 > Platform : WINDOWS winnt > Issue type : kbprb > Technology : > > > -- > LinuxSA WWW: http://www.linuxsa.org.au/ IRC: #linuxsa on irc.linux.org.au > To unsubscribe from the LinuxSA list: > mail linuxsa-request@linuxsa.org.au with "unsubscribe" as the subject > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 17 19:10:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A04F37B845 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:10:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 29663 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2000 02:10:44 -0000 Received: from du77.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.77) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2000 02:10:44 -0000 Message-ID: <3973BC84.789134F5@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:10:12 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows References: <20000718102531.F17054@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > ----- Forwarded message from dan@shearer.org ----- > > > Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:32:50 +0930 (CST) > > To: linuxsa@linuxsa.org.au > > > > Or, "additional query words remove disappear delete". > > > > Someone just posted to the Samba team along the following lines: "I > > thought I would store my W2K Roaming Profile on my Samba server, just to > > make me feel safer. Everything worked perfectly. Then I went to log off, > > but it was taking forever. Then I noticed my Linux server's hard drive > > light! After a quick check I switched off the power and then restarted in > > single user mode. Large amounts of my home directory were gone!" So this is what Gates means when he speaks of innovation. -- I do not approve of anything that tampers with natural ignorance. Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit; touch it and the bloom is gone. -- Lady Bracknell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 17 19:57: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1850D37B612 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-5-33.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.33]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e6I2uvZ17405; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:56:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA36014; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:22:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200007172322.SAA36014@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: FreeBSd Chat list From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Looking for X email client In-reply-to: Message from Gianmarco Giovannelli of "Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:25:58 +0200." <4.3.2.7.2.20000717081816.029aef08@194.184.65.7> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:22:38 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gianmarco Giovannelli writes: > I continue to think Eudora (that I use when I am under windog, like now) is > the best email program ever made, I don't understand why at Qualcomm they > are not planning at least a Linux version. Surely the linux box out are > more than the macs and they could reach also other OSes like *BSD under > linux emulation. I agree about Eudora, except its even better on a Macintosh! First time I saw kmail knew the author(s) also liked Eudora. Might replace exmh2 with kmail but for the lack of support of subfolders. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 17 20: 2:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F5037B868 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:02:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkeysler@nwlink.com) Received: from fargo.caldonia.net (ip226.r13.d.bel.nwlink.com [207.202.174.226]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29070; Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:10:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken Keeler X-Sender: kkeysler@localhost To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows In-Reply-To: <3973BC84.789134F5@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Jul 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > ----- Forwarded message from dan@shearer.org ----- > > > > > Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:32:50 +0930 (CST) > > > To: linuxsa@linuxsa.org.au > > > > > > Or, "additional query words remove disappear delete". > > > > > > Someone just posted to the Samba team along the following lines: "I > > > thought I would store my W2K Roaming Profile on my Samba server, just to > > > make me feel safer. Everything worked perfectly. Then I went to log off, > > > but it was taking forever. Then I noticed my Linux server's hard drive > > > light! After a quick check I switched off the power and then restarted in > > > single user mode. Large amounts of my home directory were gone!" > > So this is what Gates means when he speaks of innovation. > And remember, this will be stifled by fair business practices. E=mc^2 student 1 each Ken Keeler Phi Theta Kappa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 9:56: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web1304.mail.yahoo.com (web1304.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A39FB37B6C5 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:56:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jawse@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 13758 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Jul 2000 16:56:00 -0000 Message-ID: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.241.190.1] by web1304.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:56:00 PDT Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:56:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Ryder Subject: Re: The joys of Windows To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I dont see why everyone here hates windows. I am a linux/bsd/windows user at home and windows user at work. When I am home i use linux because it is interesting, not because it is better, because it really isnt better. When I go to work I use window because its time to get some real work done. All this talk about bsd and linux being better than windows is bullshit. I have windows 2000 and when I do anything on FreeBSD or Linux, it is always slower then when I do it on windows and now with win 2000 out, windows even has better memory management. I like linux and freebsd, but I also know that right now for the desktop and home use, windows 2000 is by far the better option. I really hope that BSD or Linux someday is better than windows and then I will use them for everything, but until then you just cant beat windows. Tim Ryder Developer --- Greg Lehey wrote: > ----- Forwarded message from dan@shearer.org ----- > > > Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:32:50 +0930 (CST) > > To: linuxsa@linuxsa.org.au > > > > Or, "additional query words remove disappear > delete". > > > > Someone just posted to the Samba team along the > following lines: "I > > thought I would store my W2K Roaming Profile on my > Samba server, just to > > make me feel safer. Everything worked perfectly. > Then I went to log off, > > but it was taking forever. Then I noticed my Linux > server's hard drive > > light! After a quick check I switched off the > power and then restarted in > > single user mode. Large amounts of my home > directory were gone!" > > > > For the information of readers who run mixed > environments, and also for > > anyone who likes a good laugh, here is the > Microsoft Knowledgebase > > article about the above situation. You don't need > Samba to make it happen. > > > > > http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q182/0/79.ASP?LN=EN-US&SD=gn&FR=0 > > > > Files Deleted from Home Directory on Logoff > > > > The information in this article applies to: > > > > Microsoft Windows NT Server version 4.0 > > Microsoft Windows NT Server, Enterprise > Edition version 4.0 > > Microsoft Windows NT Workstation version 4.0 > > Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional > > Microsoft Windows 2000 Server > > Microsoft Windows 2000 Advanced Server > > > > SYMPTOMS > > > > When a user logs off, all files in the home > directory are deleted. > > > > > > CAUSE > > > > Having both a Home Directory and Roaming Profile > set to the same path is > > a common cause of this. > > > > > > RESOLUTION > > > > To correct this problem, perform the following > steps: > > > > 1.Start User Manager for Domains, and select > the User's properties. > > > > 2.Under the Profile properties, specify a > profile path that is > > different from the home directory path. > > > > It is acceptable to make the profile directory a > subdirectory of the > > home directory. > > > > For example: > \\Server\Share\HomeDirectory\Profile. > > > > > > MORE INFORMATION > > > > In the Windows NT 4.0 profiles and policies > white paper ( > > > http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/management/deployment/planguide/prof_policies.asp), > > there is documentation concerning the roaming > profile path encompassing > > the home directory path. > > > > Additional query words: remove disappear delete > > > > Keywords : ntdomain > > Version : WINDOWS:2000; winnt:4.0 > > Platform : WINDOWS winnt > > Issue type : kbprb > > Technology : > > > > > > -- > > LinuxSA WWW: http://www.linuxsa.org.au/ IRC: > #linuxsa on irc.linux.org.au > > To unsubscribe from the LinuxSA list: > > mail linuxsa-request@linuxsa.org.au with > "unsubscribe" as the subject > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the > message > > ===== jryder18@earthlink.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 10:13: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0DF4337B733 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:12:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 40699 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2000 17:12:39 -0000 Received: from theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 18 Jul 2000 17:12:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 19867 invoked by uid 211); 18 Jul 2000 17:12:37 -0000 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:42:37 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Tim Ryder Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Message-ID: <20000718224237.E19428@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com>; from jawse@yahoo.com on Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 09:56:00AM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Ryder said on Jul 18, 2000 at 09:56:00: > I dont see why everyone here hates windows. I have no idea about Windows NT, but I'd hesitate to call Windows 9x an operating system at all. > linux/bsd/windows user at home and windows user at > work. When I am home i use linux because it is > interesting, not because it is better, because it > really isnt better. When I go to work I use window > because its time to get some real work done. > > All this talk about bsd and linux being better than > windows is bullshit. I have windows 2000 and when I > do anything on FreeBSD or Linux, it is always slower > then when I do it on windows and now with win 2000 > out, windows even has better memory management. If you're saying windows "felt" faster even before w2000 came out, well that may be your experience: I can't agree. Moreover, I've amazed many people by showing them how fast their old Pentium 200 with 32 MB RAM really is, simply by running linux on it rather than windows. This is despite X being a known resource hog. Windows 2000, from all accounts, will barely run at all on such a machine. On a newer machine, linux and freebsd are both so blindingly fast that "gut feeling" comparisons are just meaningless. Memory management -- I don't know: I only know from experience that opening three bulky applications at the same time is a near-guaranteed way of crashing windows, while 5-6 different users doing heavy-duty things at the same time on a fairly low end freebsd or linux machine will barely notice one anothers' presence. If you really stress it out, freebsd seems better than linux, but windows isn't even on the radar. > I like linux and freebsd, but I also know that right > now for the desktop and home use, windows 2000 is by > far the better option. Depends on what the application needs are. And that has nothing to do with memory management or other technical issues. If the needs are simple internet surfing, basic word processing, etc, linux and freebsd are fine options and miles better than windows (provided they're pre-installed and pre-configured, as windows usually is) and I've successfully convinced a few people of that. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 10:18: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0355A37B82E for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:17:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00982; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:18:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:18:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The joys of Windows In-Reply-To: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Tim Ryder wrote: >I dont see why everyone here hates windows. I am a >linux/bsd/windows user at home and windows user at >work. When I am home i use linux because it is >interesting, not because it is better, because it >really isnt better. When I go to work I use window >because its time to get some real work done. This is *freebsd*-chat@*freebsd*.org. I think there would be no better place for it, serious or not. Its chat. Its not an article in Windows Magazine, Its not ZD-net, its not Slashdot, its a chat forum. I thought the article was funny on one side and alarming on the other because some of us have a windows machine around and might run into it. =20 > =20 >All this talk about bsd and linux being better than >windows is bullshit. I have windows 2000 and when I >do anything on FreeBSD or Linux, it is always slower >then when I do it on windows and now with win 2000 >out, windows even has better memory management. Got Benchmarks ? I thought so.=20 By the way, my FreeBSD machine does not consume over 64 megs of memory upon bootup. Do you have some tips for us on how to make win 2000 not do so?=20 > >I like linux and freebsd, but I also know that right >now for the desktop and home use, windows 2000 is by >far the better option. I really hope that BSD or Linux >someday is better than windows and then I will use >them for everything, but until then you just cant beat >windows. I can.=20 1:02PM up 63 days, 13:46, 9 users, load averages: 1.31, 1.25, 1.31 1:04PM up 196 days, 14:28, 1 user, load averages: 0.08, 0.05, 0.00 > >Tim Ryder >Developer > > >--- Greg Lehey wrote: >> ----- Forwarded message from dan@shearer.org ----- >>=20 >> > Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:32:50 +0930 (CST) >> > To: linuxsa@linuxsa.org.au >> > >> > Or, "additional query words remove disappear >> delete". >> > >> > Someone just posted to the Samba team along the >> following lines: "I >> > thought I would store my W2K Roaming Profile on my >> Samba server, just to >> > make me feel safer. Everything worked perfectly. >> Then I went to log off, >> > but it was taking forever. Then I noticed my Linux >> server's hard drive >> > light! After a quick check I switched off the >> power and then restarted in >> > single user mode. Large amounts of my home >> directory were gone!" >> > >> > For the information of readers who run mixed >> environments, and also for >> > anyone who likes a good laugh, here is the >> Microsoft Knowledgebase >> > article about the above situation. You don't need >> Samba to make it happen. >> > >> > =20 >> >http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q182/0/79.ASP?LN=3DEN-US&= SD=3Dgn&FR=3D0 >> > >> > Files Deleted from Home Directory on Logoff >> > >> > The information in this article applies to: >> > >> > Microsoft Windows NT Server version 4.0 >> > Microsoft Windows NT Server, Enterprise >> Edition version 4.0 >> > Microsoft Windows NT Workstation version 4.0 >> > Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional >> > Microsoft Windows 2000 Server >> > Microsoft Windows 2000 Advanced Server >> > >> > SYMPTOMS >> > >> > When a user logs off, all files in the home >> directory are deleted. >> > >> > >> > CAUSE >> > >> > Having both a Home Directory and Roaming Profile >> set to the same path is >> > a common cause of this. >> > >> > >> > RESOLUTION >> > >> > To correct this problem, perform the following >> steps: >> > >> > 1.Start User Manager for Domains, and select >> the User's properties. >> > >> > 2.Under the Profile properties, specify a >> profile path that is >> > different from the home directory path. >> > >> > It is acceptable to make the profile directory a >> subdirectory of the >> > home directory. >> > >> > For example: >> \\Server\Share\HomeDirectory\Profile. >> > >> > >> > MORE INFORMATION >> > >> > In the Windows NT 4.0 profiles and policies >> white paper ( >> >=20 >> >http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/management/deployment/planguide/prof_pol= icies.asp), >> > there is documentation concerning the roaming >> profile path encompassing >> > the home directory path. >> > >> > Additional query words: remove disappear delete >> > >> > Keywords : ntdomain >> > Version : WINDOWS:2000; winnt:4.0 >> > Platform : WINDOWS winnt >> > Issue type : kbprb >> > Technology : >> > >> > >> > -- >> > LinuxSA WWW: http://www.linuxsa.org.au/ IRC: >> #linuxsa on irc.linux.org.au >> > To unsubscribe from the LinuxSA list: >> > mail linuxsa-request@linuxsa.org.au with >> "unsubscribe" as the subject >> > >>=20 >> ----- End forwarded message ----- >>=20 >> -- >> Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key >> See complete headers for address and phone numbers >>=20 >>=20 >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the >> message >>=20 >>=20 > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >jryder18@earthlink.net > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get Yahoo! Mail =96 Free email you can access from anywhere! >http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 10:18:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8ADF437B773 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:18:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 40844 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2000 17:18:23 -0000 Received: from theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 18 Jul 2000 17:18:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 19877 invoked by uid 211); 18 Jul 2000 17:18:22 -0000 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:48:21 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Tim Ryder Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Message-ID: <20000718224821.F19428@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com>; from jawse@yahoo.com on Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 09:56:00AM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Ryder said on Jul 18, 2000 at 09:56:00: > I dont see why everyone here hates windows. I am a Another thing: I think you missed the point of the original mail, which wasn't a general crib mail, but documented a specific deficiency in windows: namely, it sometimes automatically deletes files in the home area on logout if the "roaming profile directory" (whatever that is) is set to the home directory (though apparently you can safely set it to a subdirectory of the home directory). I think further comment is unnecessary. I challenge you to find anything comparable in the history of unix. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 10:27:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28EB437B637 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:27:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id e6IHO6611350; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:24:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:24:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Tim Ryder , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows In-Reply-To: <20000718224237.E19428@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Windows 9x is a facelift to a 16-bit Windows 3.1 which is a facade to DOS :) // Linh Pham // // Proud supporter of FreeBSD and OpenBSD // FreeBSD - http://www.freebsd.org // OpenBSD - http://www.openbsd.org /* "Oregon, n.: Eighty billion gallons of water with no place to go on Saturday night." */ On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Tim Ryder said on Jul 18, 2000 at 09:56:00: > > I dont see why everyone here hates windows. > > I have no idea about Windows NT, but I'd hesitate to call Windows 9x > an operating system at all. > > > linux/bsd/windows user at home and windows user at > > work. When I am home i use linux because it is > > interesting, not because it is better, because it > > really isnt better. When I go to work I use window > > because its time to get some real work done. > > > > All this talk about bsd and linux being better than > > windows is bullshit. I have windows 2000 and when I > > do anything on FreeBSD or Linux, it is always slower > > then when I do it on windows and now with win 2000 > > out, windows even has better memory management. > > If you're saying windows "felt" faster even before w2000 came out, > well that may be your experience: I can't agree. Moreover, I've > amazed many people by showing them how fast their old Pentium 200 with > 32 MB RAM really is, simply by running linux on it rather than > windows. This is despite X being a known resource hog. Windows 2000, > from all accounts, will barely run at all on such a machine. On a > newer machine, linux and freebsd are both so blindingly fast that > "gut feeling" comparisons are just meaningless. > > Memory management -- I don't know: I only know from experience that > opening three bulky applications at the same time is a near-guaranteed > way of crashing windows, while 5-6 different users doing heavy-duty > things at the same time on a fairly low end freebsd or linux machine > will barely notice one anothers' presence. If you really stress it > out, freebsd seems better than linux, but windows isn't even on the > radar. > > > I like linux and freebsd, but I also know that right > > now for the desktop and home use, windows 2000 is by > > far the better option. > > Depends on what the application needs are. And that has nothing to do > with memory management or other technical issues. If the needs are > simple internet surfing, basic word processing, etc, linux and freebsd > are fine options and miles better than windows (provided they're > pre-installed and pre-configured, as windows usually is) and I've > successfully convinced a few people of that. > > R. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 10:36:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F315137B737 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:35:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 40881 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2000 17:35:39 -0000 Received: from theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 18 Jul 2000 17:35:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 19998 invoked by uid 211); 18 Jul 2000 17:35:38 -0000 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:05:37 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Adam Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Message-ID: <20000718230537.G19428@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from bsdx@looksharp.net on Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 01:18:14PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Adam said on Jul 18, 2000 at 13:18:14: > 1:02PM up 63 days, 13:46, 9 users, load averages: 1.31, 1.25, 1.31 > 1:04PM up 196 days, 14:28, 1 user, load averages: 0.08, 0.05, 0.00 Apropos of which: you know that Win95 and Win98 had a bug which was guaranteed to crash them in 49 days? (Basically, they measured time in milliseconds in a 32 bit integer.) They took over 3 years to discover that, simply because none of the millions of windows users had kept the machine up so long. In comparison: linux 2.2 on the alpha had a similar bug (didn't crash the machine but led to some small networking problems). I was apparently the first to report that, because I started using 2.2.1 almost as soon as it came out and the machine just stayed up 48 days till this happened. And of course it was quickly fixed. (Currently that machine's been up 118 days, is used for desktop use and computation by around 20 people, and the last downtime was some power problem.) And I'd be surprised if such a problem ever happened with FreeBSD. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 10:40:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.iadfw.net (mail2.iadfw.net [206.66.12.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F075537B97D for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:40:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jsmethers@pdq.net) Received: from jason from [64.31.207.156] by mail2.iadfw.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.11) with smtp for sender: id ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:39:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002301bff0df$8be558e0$9ccf1f40@pdq.net> From: "Jason" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> <20000718224821.F19428@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:42:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Tim Ryder said on Jul 18, 2000 at 09:56:00: > Another thing: I think you missed the point of the original mail, > which wasn't a general crib mail, but documented a specific deficiency > in windows: namely, it sometimes automatically deletes files in the > home area on logout if the "roaming profile directory" (whatever that > is) is set to the home directory (though apparently you can safely set > it to a subdirectory of the home directory). I think further comment > is unnecessary. I challenge you to find anything comparable in the > history of unix. > > R. There was a bug in /usr/sbin/pkg_add where while installing a ports package that it received a ^c it would rm -rf the current users home directory. This feature worked for some time on both FreeBSD and NetBSD. Satisfied? - Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 10:46:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AD35137B5CB for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 40917 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2000 17:46:32 -0000 Received: from theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 18 Jul 2000 17:46:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 20036 invoked by uid 211); 18 Jul 2000 17:46:30 -0000 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:16:30 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jason Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Message-ID: <20000718231630.H19428@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> <20000718224821.F19428@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <002301bff0df$8be558e0$9ccf1f40@pdq.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <002301bff0df$8be558e0$9ccf1f40@pdq.net>; from jsmethers@pdq.net on Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:42:29PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason said on Jul 18, 2000 at 12:42:29: > > is unnecessary. I challenge you to find anything comparable in the > > history of unix. > > There was a bug in /usr/sbin/pkg_add where while installing a ports package > that it received a ^c it would rm -rf the current users home directory. This > feature worked for some time on both FreeBSD and NetBSD. > > Satisfied? Well, at least very surprised. Was the "current user" root, or the person who'd su-ed to root? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 10:56:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.aracnet.com (mail3.aracnet.com [216.99.193.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44F037B5CB for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:56:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail3.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06508; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:56:50 -0700 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id KAA29951; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:56:46 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:56:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Tim Ryder Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows In-Reply-To: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I dont see why everyone here hates windows. I am a Simple. Windows (no matter what version,) crashes reliably on me every three months. Twice now upon reinstalling Windows it has thought that it's smarter then me, and decided to mess up my partitions, loosing several gigs of stuff that I was either in the middle of backing up, rearranging, or currently working on. In addition a full blown Windows reload with drivers and software usually takes an entire weekend as I trouble shoot conflicts. FreeBSD takes a couple of hours, 30 minutes if I don't recompile the kernal. Just today a customer called me because Windows 2000 and Acess 2000 want to convert her Acess 98 databae, but it fails to do so for some unkown reason. Until that works, the customer is not able to work at all. Of course, Microsoft's tech support has been less then helpful. I hate the fact that certain peices of my hardware that worked just fine under Windows 3.11 AND had driver support for 95 no longer work at all under 98. Even with several hours of tweaking. (My ASUS 875 SCSI card based on the NCR-875 chipset which is supposedly supported by 98 will not work at all. It's now running under FBSD 4.0 just fine.) In short, Microsoft products may work for you... but as a Tech Support person, I don't want to spend all my free time working on my computers... I want to spend it playing! Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 10:57:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mout1.silyn-tek.de (mout1.silyn-tek.de [194.25.165.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B077E37B56D for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:57:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from [192.168.32.33] (helo=mx1.silyn-tek.de) by mout1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13EbcI-00068x-00; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:57:14 +0200 Received: from p3e9c114a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.156.17.74] helo=neutron.cichlids.com) by mx1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13EbcF-0001t9-00; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:57:12 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D8EAB91; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:58:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7310014A67; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:57:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:57:08 +0200 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Greg Lehey , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vinum Message-ID: <20000718195708.B94391@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Lehey , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000716115559.G57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 04:37:08AM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@flood.ping.uio.no): > Greg Lehey writes: > > #define VINUM_MAGIC 22322600044678729LL /* should be this */ > "IN VINO" > > #define VINUM_NOMAGIC 22322600044678990LL /* becomes this after obliteration */ > "NO VINO" I'm missing something here :-) How do you get that here? Also, where is "Veritas" referred at Vinum (never saw that)? Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 12: 0:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uranus.interscope.ro (ns.interscope.ro [193.226.188.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8216937B9A0 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:00:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from KoronkaS@interscope.ro) Received: by URANUS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:55:36 +0300 Message-ID: From: Stefan KORONKA To: 'Tim Ryder' Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: RE: The joys of Windows Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:55:35 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: Tim Ryder [mailto:jawse@yahoo.com] > I dont see why everyone here hates windows. I am a I don't hate windows; simply, it's worthless. > linux/bsd/windows user at home and windows user at > work. When I am home i use linux because it is > interesting, not because it is better, because it > really isnt better. When I go to work I use window > because its time to get some real work done. Well, I also use w2k, because this is what I'm paid for. However, I plan to change this soon. > > All this talk about bsd and linux being better than > windows is bullshit. I have windows 2000 and when I > do anything on FreeBSD or Linux, it is always slower > then when I do it on windows and now with win 2000 > out, windows even has better memory management. "better memory management" ?! Hmm ... strange. On my system (PII 300MHz,128MB), it takes 64megs at startup, and when I really try to do something, it start do swapping. However, I have here an P-100MHz 32MB with FreeBSD4.0 which is not far as fast as that PII running w2k .. even with that damn Netscape. Oh .. "better memory management" than win9x, you mean ?! This is easy to do .. win9x has none memory management ... :) > > I like linux and freebsd, but I also know that right > now for the desktop and home use, windows 2000 is by > far the better option. I really hope that BSD or Linux Depends on taste .. and on who is using it. I don't expect that somebody who just want to read mail/ browse web/ write something to use unix. For this kind of people, windoze can be a good choice (however, I won't pay 200-400$ just for this). And, of course, if somebody really want to so something, not just move the mouse and push buttons, than unix is the answer .. > someday is better than windows and then I will use > them for everything, but until then you just cant beat > windows. Unix was before Windose and will be far after it .. Of course, most things you can do in a simple way in Unix, you can do in the hardest way with windows .. and, of course, you need more and better hardware :) > > Tim Ryder > Developer Stefan Koronka Developer too API/MFC/COM/ATL - planning to throw this things away and do something serious :) > > > --- Greg Lehey wrote: > > ----- Forwarded message from dan@shearer.org ----- > > > > > Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:32:50 +0930 (CST) > > > To: linuxsa@linuxsa.org.au > > > > > > Or, "additional query words remove disappear > > delete". > > > > > > Someone just posted to the Samba team along the > > following lines: "I > > > thought I would store my W2K Roaming Profile on my > > Samba server, just to > > > make me feel safer. Everything worked perfectly. > > Then I went to log off, > > > but it was taking forever. Then I noticed my Linux > > server's hard drive > > > light! After a quick check I switched off the > > power and then restarted in > > > single user mode. Large amounts of my home > > directory were gone!" > > > > > > For the information of readers who run mixed > > environments, and also for > > > anyone who likes a good laugh, here is the > > Microsoft Knowledgebase > > > article about the above situation. You don't need > > Samba to make it happen. > > > > > > > > > http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q182/0/79.ASP > ?LN=EN-US&SD=gn&FR=0 > > > > > > Files Deleted from Home Directory on Logoff > > > > > > The information in this article applies to: > > > > > > Microsoft Windows NT Server version 4.0 > > > Microsoft Windows NT Server, Enterprise > > Edition version 4.0 > > > Microsoft Windows NT Workstation version 4.0 > > > Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional > > > Microsoft Windows 2000 Server > > > Microsoft Windows 2000 Advanced Server > > > > > > SYMPTOMS > > > > > > When a user logs off, all files in the home > > directory are deleted. > > > > > > > > > CAUSE > > > > > > Having both a Home Directory and Roaming Profile > > set to the same path is > > > a common cause of this. > > > > > > > > > RESOLUTION > > > > > > To correct this problem, perform the following > > steps: > > > > > > 1.Start User Manager for Domains, and select > > the User's properties. > > > > > > 2.Under the Profile properties, specify a > > profile path that is > > > different from the home directory path. > > > > > > It is acceptable to make the profile directory a > > subdirectory of the > > > home directory. > > > > > > For example: > > \\Server\Share\HomeDirectory\Profile. > > > > > > > > > MORE INFORMATION > > > > > > In the Windows NT 4.0 profiles and policies > > white paper ( > > > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/management/deployment/plangu ide/prof_policies.asp), > > there is documentation concerning the roaming > profile path encompassing > > the home directory path. > > > > Additional query words: remove disappear delete > > > > Keywords : ntdomain > > Version : WINDOWS:2000; winnt:4.0 > > Platform : WINDOWS winnt > > Issue type : kbprb > > Technology : > > > > > > -- > > LinuxSA WWW: http://www.linuxsa.org.au/ IRC: > #linuxsa on irc.linux.org.au > > To unsubscribe from the LinuxSA list: > > mail linuxsa-request@linuxsa.org.au with > "unsubscribe" as the subject > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the > message > > ===== jryder18@earthlink.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 12:18:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.iadfw.net (mail2.iadfw.net [206.66.12.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 172B237B9F5 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:18:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jsmethers@pdq.net) Received: from jason from [64.31.207.156] by mail2.iadfw.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.11) with smtp for sender: id ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:18:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <005001bff0ed$497234c0$9ccf1f40@pdq.net> From: "Jason" To: "Adam" , References: Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:20:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Tim Ryder wrote: >>All this talk about bsd and linux being better than >>windows is bullshit. I have windows 2000 and when I >>do anything on FreeBSD or Linux, it is always slower >>then when I do it on windows and now with win 2000 >>out, windows even has better memory management. > >Got Benchmarks ? I thought so. >By the way, my FreeBSD machine does not consume over 64 megs of memory >upon bootup. Do you have some tips for us on how to make win 2000 not do >so? You missed the point. His application was as a workstation, not a server. FreeBSD will of course not consume so much memory on boot, but once X is running, it comes pretty close to 64 megs in use. FreeBSD will kick some ass both in CPU and memory usage and management, but to anyone legally running windows 2000, it is going to be a drop in the bucket to get 128 or 256 megs of ram instead of 64. Have you ever tried doing something graphics intensive on FreeBSD with XFree86 2D or 3D? You can't. Simply put, the video drivers still suck, even with the new XFree86 architecture, especially compared to commercial windows drivers. This is a place where perception is the ultimate benchmark. Linux is much better off in this case with some video card manufactures creating video driver kernel modules for X and Linux though the core isn't open source. What about sound? Linux is making progress here with both a wide range of drivers for sound cards that have some minimal PCM functionality, but also with the groups currently working on a standard 3D audio stream API. FreeBSD simply isn't. I guess no one using FreeBSD is really interested in having support for more then PCM and a few well versed sound cards using it. I'd say the lack of SCSI drivers are a problem too, but windows doesn't always do much better in this case either. There is of course a lack of application software, but this is slowly changing with some KDE and GNOME apps. >>I like linux and freebsd, but I also know that right >>now for the desktop and home use, windows 2000 is by >>far the better option. I really hope that BSD or Linux >>someday is better than windows and then I will use >>them for everything, but until then you just cant beat >>windows. > >I can. >1:02PM up 63 days, 13:46, 9 users, load averages: 1.31, 1.25, 1.31 >1:04PM up 196 days, 14:28, 1 user, load averages: 0.08, 0.05, 0.00 The main importance of this is in a server roll, but as a workstation, there is usually a much lower consequence of such as long as the machine can stay up between times of inactivity, times which a server can not guarantee, and does not out right crash. I may be lucky, but I have yet to see windows 2000 crash except with known buggy hardware - TNT2 AGP interacting with the buggy chipset on a Asus P5A. So no, for this application, you haven't. You've only presented three good reasons to use FreeBSD instead, though I've also presented three much better reasons not to, at least one of which will likely be the ultimate determining factor in what which someone uses. Depending on how you look at it, things have a long way and a short way to go before windows can be replaced. You're proving a different application then the desired - servers. As usual, it still comes down to what hardware you have or can get, and what you want to do with it. Everything has its flaws and that fact may never change. It pays not to take up a blind loyalty if one at all. It will only cause you to lose your objectivity. - Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 12:26: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E732437B703 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13Ecpg-000DZR-00; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:15:08 +0100 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13Ecpg-000810-00; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:15:08 +0100 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:15:08 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Alexander Langer Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Lehey , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vinum Message-ID: <20000718201508.F4668@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <20000716115559.G57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20000718195708.B94391@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SqEuGDw53xMPnx3c" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000718195708.B94391@cichlids.cichlids.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --SqEuGDw53xMPnx3c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@flood.ping.uio.no): >=20 >> Greg Lehey writes: >>> #define VINUM_MAGIC 22322600044678729LL /* should be this */ >> "IN VINO" >>> #define VINUM_NOMAGIC 22322600044678990LL /* becomes this after o= bliteration */ >> "NO VINO" >=20 > I'm missing something here :-) >=20 > How do you get that here? See which character each of the eight bytes in those numbers corresponds too. Assuming that's what you were asking... ben@magnesium:~/tmp$ cat t.c #include int main(void) { long long a =3D 22322600044678729LL, b =3D 22322600044678990LL; write(1, &a, sizeof a); write(1, &b, sizeof b); return (0); } ben@magnesium:~/tmp$ cc -Wall t.c ben@magnesium:~/tmp$ ./a.out | hd 00000000 49 4e 20 56 49 4e 4f 00 4e 4f 20 56 49 4e 4f 00 |IN VINO.NO VIN= O.| 00000010 ok, who's going to give me the Perl one-liner to do that? It would probably involve pack/unpack which I've never got on well with. --=20 Ben Smithurst / ben@FreeBSD.org / PGP: 0x99392F7D FreeBSD Documentation Project / --SqEuGDw53xMPnx3c Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use MessageID: 2tgBtoMe6/H+Nz11zp3EqlZm425+jGL5 iQCVAwUBOXSsuysPVtiZOS99AQE3wAP/b31SObu+m1U+Gj42rgp9DSYZVEcVVFZn prhlQCuKJiLAQkTpW0FstY5y4bF08WWvpB9heNSkP6tLGg6vtZScUR0pDu0RWJXn kZ1co0chBNS5QqiFU+cy6QEw/SZOfm1O7y27Z8jblZoXfEMi6PHBE7rG0g/Iwrqb 5dDsWHtiKPY= =rZ1J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SqEuGDw53xMPnx3c-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 12:37:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA4437BC6C for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:37:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA52060; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:36:56 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:36:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Tim Ryder Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows In-Reply-To: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Tim Ryder wrote: > I dont see why everyone here hates windows. I am a > linux/bsd/windows user at home and windows user at work. When I > am home i use linux because it is interesting, not because it is > better, because it really isnt better. When I go to work I use > window because its time to get some real work done. "Real work"? Define that. I do LOTS of "real work" on FreeBSD. > All this talk about bsd and linux being better than windows is > bullshit. I have windows 2000 and when I do anything on FreeBSD > or Linux, it is always slower then when I do it on windows and now > with win 2000 out, windows even has better memory management. Where are you getting the crack you're smoking? Windows 2000 is by far the slowest pile of crap I have ever encountered. It turns my PIII-850 systems into 486 equivalents (OK, not quite THAT bad, but it is far slower than NT4 on the same system). I work with a LOT of various systems running Windows 95, 98, NT, and 2000, so I have a good perspective on what performs well and what doesn't. I also use FreeBSD on my personal workstations at home and at work. I wouldn't give up FreeBSD for anything, but I do require Windows for certain applications that don't exist on FreeBSD or Linux. This is why I bought VMWare so that I never have to leave FreeBSD. :-) > I like linux and freebsd, but I also know that right now for the > desktop and home use, windows 2000 is by far the better option. I > really hope that BSD or Linux someday is better than windows and > then I will use them for everything, but until then you just cant > beat windows. "A better option" is pretty relative. If the applications you want run on Linux or FreeBSD, Windows is definately not a better option. Ditto for the other direction, too. I _can_ say with authority that Windows is a pain in the butt from an administrative point of view. I administrate nearly a thousand various Windows machines and would LOVE if they all ran FreeBSD instead. Of course, then I would be out of a job because machines would stay running for years instead of days. :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures. ( http://www.freebsd.org ) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 12:47:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4470137B921 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:47:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02293; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:47:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:47:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: Jason Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The joys of Windows In-Reply-To: <005001bff0ed$497234c0$9ccf1f40@pdq.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Disclaimer: I'm only discussing/arguing because I find it entertaining at the moment. If someone wishes I wasn't, let me know and I'll gladly stop. On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Jason wrote: >>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Tim Ryder wrote: >>>All this talk about bsd and linux being better than >>>windows is bullshit. I have windows 2000 and when I >>>do anything on FreeBSD or Linux, it is always slower >>>then when I do it on windows and now with win 2000 >>>out, windows even has better memory management. >> >>Got Benchmarks ? I thought so. >>By the way, my FreeBSD machine does not consume over 64 megs of memory >>upon bootup. Do you have some tips for us on how to make win 2000 not do >>so? > >You missed the point. His application was as a workstation, not a server. >FreeBSD will of course not consume so much memory on boot, but once X is >running, it comes pretty close to 64 megs in use. FreeBSD will kick some ass >both in CPU and memory usage and management, but to anyone legally running >windows 2000, it is going to be a drop in the bucket to get 128 or 256 megs >of ram instead of 64. I have workstations as well as servers. I run FreeBSD on them all. I just booted up FreeBSD on one, started XFree86, and am in icewm with an xterm open and top running. Mem: ~7.6M active, ~7.6M Inactive, 12M Wired, 32K Cache, 8112K Buf, 97M Free out of 128M total. The 7.6M and 32K cache and 8112K cache can be considered free also if you realize they can be paged out or shrunk if more mem is needed. 31 < 64. > >Have you ever tried doing something graphics intensive on FreeBSD with >XFree86 2D or 3D? You can't. Simply put, the video drivers still suck, even Yes I have and its blazing fast (to me) with the GLX extensions for my video card. Can you have Hardware 3D animation in your windows backround? I don't think so. >with the new XFree86 architecture, especially compared to commercial windows >drivers. This is a place where perception is the ultimate benchmark. Linux >is much better off in this case with some video card manufactures creating >video driver kernel modules for X and Linux though the core isn't open >source. > >What about sound? Linux is making progress here with both a wide range of >drivers for sound cards that have some minimal PCM functionality, but also >with the groups currently working on a standard 3D audio stream API. FreeBSD >simply isn't. I guess no one using FreeBSD is really interested in having >support for more then PCM and a few well versed sound cards using it. Please tell me, how does 3D sound hardware play my mp3's in 3D? How does it play Audio cd's in 3D? > >I'd say the lack of SCSI drivers are a problem too, but windows doesn't >always do much better in this case either. > >There is of course a lack of application software, but this is slowly >changing with some KDE and GNOME apps. > >>>I like linux and freebsd, but I also know that right >>>now for the desktop and home use, windows 2000 is by >>>far the better option. I really hope that BSD or Linux >>>someday is better than windows and then I will use >>>them for everything, but until then you just cant beat >>>windows. >> >>I can. >>1:02PM up 63 days, 13:46, 9 users, load averages: 1.31, 1.25, 1.31 >>1:04PM up 196 days, 14:28, 1 user, load averages: 0.08, 0.05, 0.00 > >The main importance of this is in a server roll, but as a workstation, there >is usually a much lower consequence of such as long as the machine can stay >up between times of inactivity, times which a server can not guarantee, and >does not out right crash. I may be lucky, but I have yet to see windows 2000 >crash except with known buggy hardware - TNT2 AGP interacting with the buggy >chipset on a Asus P5A. So no, for this application, you haven't. You've only >presented three good reasons to use FreeBSD instead, though I've also >presented three much better reasons not to, at least one of which will >likely be the ultimate determining factor in what which someone uses. >Depending on how you look at it, things have a long way and a short way to >go before windows can be replaced. > >You're proving a different application then the desired - servers. That 63 days one was not a server, it is a computer I use daily for various (small) tasks. But I do run X on it the whole time and ssh around and read my email and run various other frivolous applications. The last time I rebooted was because I was screwing around with the external scsi bus in ways I probably shouldnt have been. I have my scanner attached and scan in images with gimp happily. When I'm done, top looks on average like this: Memory: 40M Act, 676K Inact, 412K Wired, 4008K Free, 508K Swap, 79M Swap free This computer has a 40mhz cpu. When I scan on my parents NT4 computer with 64 megs (more than this one) and a *400* mhz cpu it crawls from swapping. I'll continue to provide specific examples disproving assumptions about how I(we) (may) use our computers as long as I'm included in the grouping. > >As usual, it still comes down to what hardware you have or can get, and what >you want to do with it. Everything has its flaws and that fact may never >change. It pays not to take up a blind loyalty if one at all. It will only >cause you to lose your objectivity. Right - I consider myself pretty objective even if I only choose to argue specific points at times. The fact that I like *BSD doesn't stop me from using and somewhat liking other things too. When people try to fit square pegs in round holes, then I get upset =) > >- Jason > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 12:58:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web1304.mail.yahoo.com (web1304.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1DEFD37B953 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:58:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jawse@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 16556 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Jul 2000 19:58:22 -0000 Message-ID: <20000718195822.16555.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.241.190.1] by web1304.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:58:22 PDT Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:58:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Ryder Subject: Re: The joys of Windows To: Adam , Jason Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The truth of the matter is that no matter what you are using it is only as good as the person using it. If you work faster in windows then you will beleive that windows is better and the same goes for all the others. As far as you X environment you cant compare the functionality in ice with windows. Of course you use less ram when using ice, ive used ice and while it is nice and quick, it does not support what Gnome or KDE do, like drag and drop. Everyone keeps saying that things are easier to do in linux/bsd over windows and then they go on to say that they dont like windows because all that you do is point and click - isnt that easier. tim ryder --- Adam wrote: > Disclaimer: I'm only discussing/arguing because I > find it entertaining at > the moment. If someone wishes I wasn't, let me know > and I'll gladly stop. > > On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Jason wrote: > > >>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Tim Ryder wrote: > >>>All this talk about bsd and linux being better > than > >>>windows is bullshit. I have windows 2000 and > when I > >>>do anything on FreeBSD or Linux, it is always > slower > >>>then when I do it on windows and now with win > 2000 > >>>out, windows even has better memory management. > >> > >>Got Benchmarks ? I thought so. > >>By the way, my FreeBSD machine does not consume > over 64 megs of memory > >>upon bootup. Do you have some tips for us on how > to make win 2000 not do > >>so? > > > >You missed the point. His application was as a > workstation, not a server. > >FreeBSD will of course not consume so much memory > on boot, but once X is > >running, it comes pretty close to 64 megs in use. > FreeBSD will kick some ass > >both in CPU and memory usage and management, but to > anyone legally running > >windows 2000, it is going to be a drop in the > bucket to get 128 or 256 megs > >of ram instead of 64. > > I have workstations as well as servers. I run > FreeBSD on them all. > I just booted up FreeBSD on one, started XFree86, > and am in icewm with an > xterm open and top running. Mem: ~7.6M active, > ~7.6M Inactive, 12M Wired, > 32K Cache, 8112K Buf, 97M Free out of 128M total. > The 7.6M and 32K cache > and 8112K cache can be considered free also if you > realize they can be > paged out or shrunk if more mem is needed. 31 < 64. > > > > >Have you ever tried doing something graphics > intensive on FreeBSD with > >XFree86 2D or 3D? You can't. Simply put, the video > drivers still suck, even > > Yes I have and its blazing fast (to me) with the GLX > extensions for my > video card. Can you have Hardware 3D animation in > your windows > backround? I don't think so. > > >with the new XFree86 architecture, especially > compared to commercial windows > >drivers. This is a place where perception is the > ultimate benchmark. Linux > >is much better off in this case with some video > card manufactures creating > >video driver kernel modules for X and Linux though > the core isn't open > >source. > > > >What about sound? Linux is making progress here > with both a wide range of > >drivers for sound cards that have some minimal PCM > functionality, but also > >with the groups currently working on a standard 3D > audio stream API. FreeBSD > >simply isn't. I guess no one using FreeBSD is > really interested in having > >support for more then PCM and a few well versed > sound cards using it. > > Please tell me, how does 3D sound hardware play my > mp3's in 3D? How does > it play Audio cd's in 3D? > > > > >I'd say the lack of SCSI drivers are a problem too, > but windows doesn't > >always do much better in this case either. > > > >There is of course a lack of application software, > but this is slowly > >changing with some KDE and GNOME apps. > > > >>>I like linux and freebsd, but I also know that > right > >>>now for the desktop and home use, windows 2000 is > by > >>>far the better option. I really hope that BSD or > Linux > >>>someday is better than windows and then I will > use > >>>them for everything, but until then you just cant > beat > >>>windows. > >> > >>I can. > >>1:02PM up 63 days, 13:46, 9 users, load averages: > 1.31, 1.25, 1.31 > >>1:04PM up 196 days, 14:28, 1 user, load averages: > 0.08, 0.05, 0.00 > > > >The main importance of this is in a server roll, > but as a workstation, there > >is usually a much lower consequence of such as long > as the machine can stay > >up between times of inactivity, times which a > server can not guarantee, and > >does not out right crash. I may be lucky, but I > have yet to see windows 2000 > >crash except with known buggy hardware - TNT2 AGP > interacting with the buggy > >chipset on a Asus P5A. So no, for this application, > you haven't. You've only > >presented three good reasons to use FreeBSD > instead, though I've also > >presented three much better reasons not to, at > least one of which will > >likely be the ultimate determining factor in what > which someone uses. > >Depending on how you look at it, things have a long > way and a short way to > >go before windows can be replaced. > > > >You're proving a different application then the > desired - servers. > > That 63 days one was not a server, it is a computer > I use daily for > various (small) tasks. But I do run X on it the > whole time and ssh around > and read my email and run various other frivolous > applications. The last > time I rebooted was because I was screwing around > with the external scsi > bus in ways I probably shouldnt have been. I have > my scanner attached and > scan in images with gimp happily. When I'm done, > top looks on average > like this: > Memory: 40M Act, 676K Inact, 412K Wired, 4008K Free, > 508K Swap, > 79M Swap free > > This computer has a 40mhz cpu. When I scan on my > parents NT4 computer > with 64 megs (more than this one) and a *400* mhz > cpu it crawls from > swapping. > > I'll continue to provide specific examples > disproving assumptions about > how I(we) (may) use our computers as long as I'm > included in the grouping. > > > > >As usual, it still comes down to what hardware you > have or can get, and what > >you want to do with it. Everything has its flaws > and that fact may never > >change. It pays not to take up a blind loyalty if > one at all. It will only > >cause you to lose your objectivity. > > Right - I consider myself pretty objective even if I > only choose to argue > specific points at times. The fact that I like *BSD > doesn't stop me from > using and somewhat liking other things too. When > people try to fit square > pegs in round holes, then I get upset =) > > > > >- Jason > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the > message > > > ===== jryder18@earthlink.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 13:10: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.nc.rr.com (fe1.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4181E37BA4E for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:10:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@nc.rr.com) Received: from rdu25-17-233.nc.rr.com ([24.25.17.233]) by mail1.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35); Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:10:02 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:07:50 -0400 From: Neill Robins X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.42f) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Neill Robins X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <7140013563.20000718160750@nc.rr.com> To: Tim Ryder Cc: Adam , Jason , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The joys of Windows In-reply-To: <20000718195822.16555.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20000718195822.16555.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Tim, Tuesday, July 18, 2000, 3:58:22 PM, you wrote: TR> The truth of the matter is that no matter what you are TR> using it is only as good as the person using it. Windows is great for my dad, who write emails, etc. But I find it hard to believe that computers with 128mb of ram and 3-4 applications (email, Netscape, editor) crash constantly and reliably. I don't have time to keep rebooting. TR> Everyone keeps saying that things are easier to do in TR> linux/bsd over windows and then they go on to say that TR> they dont like windows because all that you do is TR> point and click - isnt that easier. If you use a mouse.... Lynx, mutt, etc....You don't even need X.... -- Best regards, Neill freebsd@nc.rr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 13:17:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF2237BB16 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.89.241]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000718211653.NYSM3760.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:16:53 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA02510; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:17:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:17:18 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Neill Robins Cc: Tim Ryder , Adam , Jason , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Message-ID: <20000718211718.F239@parish> References: <20000718195822.16555.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> <7140013563.20000718160750@nc.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <7140013563.20000718160750@nc.rr.com>; from freebsd@nc.rr.com on Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:07:50PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:07:50PM -0400, Neill Robins wrote: > Hello Tim, > Tuesday, July 18, 2000, 3:58:22 PM, you wrote: > TR> The truth of the matter is that no matter what you are > TR> using it is only as good as the person using it. > > Windows is great for my dad, who write emails, etc. But I find it > hard to believe that computers with 128mb of ram and 3-4 applications > (email, Netscape, editor) crash constantly and reliably. I don't have ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ An oxymoron, methinks :) Hmm, that whole sentence (without the app names in brackets) wouldn't be out of place in fortune(6). > time to keep rebooting. > > TR> Everyone keeps saying that things are easier to do in > TR> linux/bsd over windows and then they go on to say that > TR> they dont like windows because all that you do is > TR> point and click - isnt that easier. > > If you use a mouse.... > > Lynx, mutt, etc....You don't even need X.... > > > -- > Best regards, > Neill > freebsd@nc.rr.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- If I buy a copy of WinDelete, and it doesn't delete Windows, am I entitled to my money back? ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 13:33: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mout2.silyn-tek.de (mout2.silyn-tek.de [194.25.165.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F2FB37B510; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:33:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from [192.168.32.33] (helo=mx1.silyn-tek.de) by mout2.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13Ee2X-0005YT-00; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:32:29 +0200 Received: from p3e9c114a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.156.17.74] helo=neutron.cichlids.com) by mx1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13Ee2V-0005PY-00; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:32:28 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65919AB91; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:34:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 70FD014AFD; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:32:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:32:24 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Ben Smithurst Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Lehey , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: vinum Message-ID: <20000718223224.B30699@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Ben Smithurst , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Greg Lehey , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20000716115559.G57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20000718195708.B94391@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000718201508.F4668@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9" X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000718201508.F4668@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk>; from ben@FreeBSD.org on Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 08:15:08PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thus spake Ben Smithurst (ben@FreeBSD.org): > >>> #define VINUM_MAGIC 22322600044678729LL /* should be this */ > >> "IN VINO" > >>> #define VINUM_NOMAGIC 22322600044678990LL /* becomes this after= obliteration */ > >> "NO VINO" > > I'm missing something here :-) > See which character each of the eight bytes in those numbers corresponds > too. Assuming that's what you were asking... I thought something like this, but I couldn't figure out, how to decode it.. > write(1, &a, sizeof a); > write(1, &b, sizeof b); Nice trick :) "trick" HA! ;-) Alex --=20 cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.1 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQEVAwUBOXS+1rRIIUSeqRcRAQFyzQf+KC6oTqx58G6RVDnUarTSKRwxL6Kf9iq6 FXWf+Oy7GwLnwiy4NOw7DG5eUSY+3e7QdALLHVeZqGtP6wyra9zI308OpW1GmdSu TKw9mobb6uxknHYcH0dfejhV2UcIWs4mMMuonGMxo2VlZrC6ffjWmWIB9APnaXek MPU6BR3/tYj6Jh651bHIshPVhP6eSp+89r4WSYxo64MFg0AMeDRTAVPt+CVdPyDs cgITDVcY8Ji3+W2yUTl61Ol0ibRtXGikuR+XWbllOkYpUyQOuhUzvw38CNy6xPrR qTff3g+xX5NGHfNQax7UXYGimKPMf2wIpaG1mnD7RkG7zSHFKJ7NTg== =K751 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 13:57:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.iadfw.net (mail2.iadfw.net [206.66.12.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DC49237B634 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:57:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jsmethers@pdq.net) Received: from jason from [64.31.207.156] by mail2.iadfw.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.11) with smtp for sender: id ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:57:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <007101bff0fb$261919e0$9ccf1f40@pdq.net> From: "Jason" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> <20000718224821.F19428@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <002301bff0df$8be558e0$9ccf1f40@pdq.net> <20000718231630.H19428@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:00:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Jason said on Jul 18, 2000 at 12:42:29: > > > is unnecessary. I challenge you to find anything comparable in the > > > history of unix. > > > > There was a bug in /usr/sbin/pkg_add where while installing a ports package > > that it received a ^c it would rm -rf the current users home directory. This > > feature worked for some time on both FreeBSD and NetBSD. > > > > Satisfied? > > Well, at least very surprised. Was the "current user" root, or the > person who'd su-ed to root? Uh, doesn't have much to do with it. Who ever ran pkg_add would have rm -rf run on their home directory (I don't recall exactly) instead or in addition to the temporary package directory. - Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 14:14:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85BE37BB4F; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:14:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA43679; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:13:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Alexander Langer Cc: Ben Smithurst , Greg Lehey , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: vinum References: <20000716115559.G57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20000718195708.B94391@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000718201508.F4668@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> <20000718223224.B30699@cichlids.cichlids.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Jul 2000 23:13:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: Alexander Langer's message of "Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:32:24 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexander Langer writes: > I thought something like this, but I couldn't figure out, how to > decode it.. I did it with unions: #include union { long long ll; char ch[10]; } a, b; int main(void) { a.ll = 22322600044678729LL; b.ll = 22322600044678990LL; printf("%s / %s\n", a.ch, b.ch); } DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 14:37:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.iadfw.net (mail2.iadfw.net [206.66.12.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E83C737BB76 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:37:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jsmethers@pdq.net) Received: from jason from [64.31.207.156] by mail2.iadfw.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.11) with smtp for sender: id ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:36:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <008201bff100$a3ad4980$9ccf1f40@pdq.net> From: "Jason" To: References: Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:39:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Adam" > I have workstations as well as servers. I run FreeBSD on them all. > I just booted up FreeBSD on one, started XFree86, and am in icewm with an > xterm open and top running. Mem: ~7.6M active, ~7.6M Inactive, 12M Wired, > 32K Cache, 8112K Buf, 97M Free out of 128M total. The 7.6M and 32K cache > and 8112K cache can be considered free also if you realize they can be > paged out or shrunk if more mem is needed. 31 < 64. Again there are many variables to this whole discussion and it all comes down to some personal intrest. I can't give specifiec numbers since I always revert my main machine back to windows after having a period of having used FreeBSD and X. Last time I worked with the two using KDE, X's size started at about 40M and by the time I had done some work or played around it would be up to 50M - 55M. Take into account instance of netscape, xtrem, etc., my memory usage usualy was in the 128 - 196 MB range. The same things that would hardly scratch a limit of 64M in windows 98. I didn't see more then about 512K swapped of course becuase I have 256M in my machine, but switching between windows, especialy xterms would cause close to the same slow repaint as an Internet Explorer window that has been left idle long enough to be paged out. I agree that windows memory management is nill to non existant, but the way it handles things can be intrinsicly better in such a way as it doesn't matter for the applications of many people. FreeBSD has it problems in this area also which are being worked on to some degree. Directory caching is harible coupled with a default filesystem that was designed more or less to support server applications with multiple users, one of the things I do at least every day, filesystem browsing, takes a major blow in speed akin to going back a generation in hard disk speed - ATA-66 disks to PIO3 disks. > > > >Have you ever tried doing something graphics intensive on FreeBSD with > >XFree86 2D or 3D? You can't. Simply put, the video drivers still suck, even > > Yes I have and its blazing fast (to me) with the GLX extensions for my > video card. Can you have Hardware 3D animation in your windows > backround? I don't think so. I've recently tried both TNT2 and GForce chipsets, and when compared to the windows it is nothing short of pathetic, both 2D and 3D. No I can't have it in the background persay that I know of, but I can have it in a window. I can see it being fast to you, but you are going from one version of XFree86 to another. Going from the speed of a comercial windows driver to an open source one is more akin to going back two or there generations of hardware. > Please tell me, how does 3D sound hardware play my mp3's in 3D? How does > it play Audio cd's in 3D? Are you trying to be an ass? mp3 is interpreted to PCM. CD audio has almost nothing to do with it. The hardware can interpret normal PCM data to a synthasized 3D or there can be specified information about how a sound is played in 3D. Both may require hardware setup by the driver. This comes down to the driver supporting the 3D functions of the card and interfacing to a genric 3D audio API. Some sound guru may prove me wrong in some way, but that is my take on it from my research. Here the point is more or less on gaming of course, though some meager home theater and studio applications are also prestented. > That 63 days one was not a server, it is a computer I use daily for > various (small) tasks. But I do run X on it the whole time and ssh around > and read my email and run various other frivolous applications. The last > time I rebooted was because I was screwing around with the external scsi > bus in ways I probably shouldnt have been. I have my scanner attached and > scan in images with gimp happily. When I'm done, top looks on average > like this: > Memory: 40M Act, 676K Inact, 412K Wired, 4008K Free, 508K Swap, > 79M Swap free > > This computer has a 40mhz cpu. When I scan on my parents NT4 computer > with 64 megs (more than this one) and a *400* mhz cpu it crawls from > swapping. > > I'll continue to provide specific examples disproving assumptions about > how I(we) (may) use our computers as long as I'm included in the grouping. This is a specific area in which windows takes a dump. From my expiance, I do not beliave that this has to do with running out of memory. It seems more like bad app design. My perception is that the application will allocate lots of memory instead of using something simpler such as a temporay file. Neither of which will help in speed becuase windows file caching is also garbage. Windows does a terrible job of handling any sort of remotly large data set. In fact, anything from Microsoft does a horrible job of managing large data sets. This is clearly a place that FreeBSD wins. Its already been shown that FreeBSD does an awsome job in managing memory, especialy in tight situations. It is also demonstrated that this is not of upmost importance nor is it as important considering the applications that are available are not of the upmost efficency in resonable memory allocations or the cooperation between instance of the same application in X. Now it loses when you want to display that image, compared to windows, becase the video drivers in comparision are not near the optimization. Same for playing video. The freely available video decoders suffer both from a lack of rendering quality and decoder speed coupled with inadiquit display drivers. I think that FreeBSD itself at its core is hands down going to kick windows butt, but when it comes to things such as supporting applications such as XFree86 and its applications, and other subsystems such as sound, it loses the usefulness that the core provides. Of course, it does not fit in with the main stream PC usage without these - gaming. There are three reasons I do not use FreeBSD and X instead of windows. The one that always really gets to me every time is that the sound cards I buy are not supported in FreeBSD and of course, I explore writing one for my current card every time but other things in addition to lack of documentation and that I have never written more then the PCI handling functions for a device driver, looking at the source to Linux drivers for the same card that will say in themselves that they are not correctly written and that the manufacture didn't give a flip about them have stopped me from doing so. Its just my personal opinion, but I don't think that I should be forced to buy what I believe to be a second rate sound card, or any other hardware, just to have it supported by a particular OS, nor do I believe that I should be placed in a position to have to buy a driver from a third party for that OS. Then of course, there is the large drop in video speed going from windows to X. Finally, there is not so much the lack of applications but the lack of coherent GUI interfaces to some applications and the mismanagement of screen real-estate because of this and other base design philosophies used in the X world. For one example of a bad design philosophy, look at the KDE developer site where they bash windows. Why would anyone want to cut or paste into a dialog box anyway? After all, that's only useful for manipulating entire paragraphs, right? There is of course a lot of NIH in X applications where you see lots of implementations of base functionalities that never get much further and a lot of restarts in projects. Lack of quality rendering in things such as video, .pdf, etc., other things such as that lack of communication between GUI apps, and so on are major draw backs to me. The only win I see is .ps file support of course. When the sound and video are equal to windows, I will switch. The applications aren't as important to me because I can write my own or modify others. - Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 14:55:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4157237B80B for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:55:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 474 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2000 21:55:53 -0000 Received: from du211039.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.211.39) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 2000 21:55:53 -0000 Message-ID: <3974CEED.BA1ACF5B@mail.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:41:01 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Speaking of Windows Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have bad news for those who hate Microsoft: it will be around for several hundred years at least. As proof, consider this: in virtually every episode of Star Trek the bad guys, often aliens who have never encountered humans before, manage to gain control of Enterprise's computers and take over the ship. The conclusion is obvious: Star Fleet buys its software from Microsoft. No other vendor could possibly sell software with so many bugs and security holes. -- I do not approve of anything that tampers with natural ignorance. Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit; touch it and the bloom is gone. -- Lady Bracknell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 14:58:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mout1.silyn-tek.de (mout1.silyn-tek.de [194.25.165.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0028A37B896; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:58:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from [192.168.32.34] (helo=mx2.silyn-tek.de) by mout1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13EfNB-0007Ac-00; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:57:53 +0200 Received: from p3e9c114a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.156.17.74] helo=neutron.cichlids.com) by mx2.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13EfN9-0001rS-00; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:57:51 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79077AB91; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:59:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6F24514A66; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:57:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:57:48 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Ben Smithurst , Greg Lehey , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: vinum Message-ID: <20000718235748.B50948@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Ben Smithurst , Greg Lehey , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20000716115559.G57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20000718195708.B94391@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000718201508.F4668@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> <20000718223224.B30699@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 11:13:50PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@flood.ping.uio.no): > > I thought something like this, but I couldn't figure out, how to > > decode it.. > I did it with unions: That's a nice way :) Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 15:26:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uranus.interscope.ro (ns.interscope.ro [193.226.188.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2295637B6CF for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:26:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from KoronkaS@interscope.ro) Received: by URANUS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:21:32 +0300 Message-ID: From: Stefan KORONKA To: 'Tim Ryder' Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: The joys of Windows Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:21:29 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: Tim Ryder [mailto:jawse@yahoo.com] > > The truth of the matter is that no matter what you are > using it is only as good as the person using it. If > you work faster in windows then you will beleive that > windows is better and the same goes for all the > others. > As far as you X environment you cant compare the > functionality in ice with windows. Of course you use > less ram when using ice, ive used ice and while it is > nice and quick, it does not support what Gnome or KDE > do, like drag and drop. Maybe I don't need drag'n'drop .. and maybe I don't need Gnome/KDE .. or maybe I choose other window manager. Or maybe I have money and buy CDE .. or maybe I don't like X and go to the console. The fact is that I DO HAVE A CHOICE ! I can do whatever I want - I have plenty of possibilities, depends on my taste and my needs. > Everyone keeps saying that things are easier to do in > linux/bsd over windows and then they go on to say that > they dont like windows because all that you do is > point and click - isnt that easier. Unix it's easier not just because you can point-click-and-crash. It's easier because it's clean and well designed. It's easier because you have choices. And, as a "developer" speaking, do you find windows well-designed ? I don't .. I found it a big mess. But hey .. everyone has his one tastes .. Stefan PS: Talking about the "user friendless" .. Why everybody expect that a free thing has the same look/feel/functionality(?!) with a paid one ? But hey ... at least it not crash .. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 16:28:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FFB537B9E9 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:28:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA03514; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:58:04 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:58:04 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vinum Message-ID: <20000719085804.S77412@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000716115559.G57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20000718195708.B94391@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000718195708.B94391@cichlids.cichlids.com> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 18 July 2000 at 19:57:08 +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@flood.ping.uio.no): > >> Greg Lehey writes: >>> #define VINUM_MAGIC 22322600044678729LL /* should be this */ >> "IN VINO" >>> #define VINUM_NOMAGIC 22322600044678990LL /* becomes this after obliteration */ >> "NO VINO" > > Also, where is "Veritas" referred at Vinum (never saw that)? It's implicit. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 17:19:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9855837B62D for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:19:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA22344; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:17:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA8baGIR; Tue Jul 18 17:17:42 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22133; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:18:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007190018.RAA22133@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! To: tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:18:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), jcwells@nwlink.com (Jason C. Wells), lplist@q.closedsrc.org (Linh Pham), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3970E35A.EB9EF25A@mail.ptd.net> from "Thomas M. Sommers" at Jul 15, 2000 06:19:06 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Brett Glass wrote: > > > > At 12:38 PM 7/15/2000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > > > >Umm. What ways less than a duck? :) > > > > Why a duck? ;-) > > Why a fence? Because good ducks make good neighbors. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 17:59:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1.gte.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E82F37B5A8 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:59:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop1.gte.net with ESMTP ; id TAA4427484 Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:55:51 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:58:55 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: Tim Ryder Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows In-Reply-To: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Whether you realize it or not, Greg had done a good deal for the community, and deserves your respect. I, on the other hand, am here to chat, learn, and laugh. *** Everyone here doen't hate windows. Some may thoroughly disklike the whole mess, but hate is word small children use. After you've spent years of your life supporting a product, you begin to feel like you have something invested it it. I felt bad when Netware was shouldered out of the way for NT AS. I felt bad when Desqview was shouldered out the way for windows. I felt bad when OS/2 was shouldered out of the way for windows. I felt bad when Amiga went under. Why couldn't it have been Apple instead? (Why Curt Cobain? Why not Axl Rose instead?) I felt bad when CP/M was shouldered out of the way for DOS. I felt bad when bootp was made into dhcp. I felt bad when kerebos was made proprietary. But anymore, I don't care. The last money I spent on a Microsoft product was MS-DOS 4.0 for my Amiga 500's hardware-based pc-xt emulator. I could see where people could get attached to windows. People tend to bond to what was prevalent when they were young. Why else would people drive hondas? Attempting to subvert kerebos was the last straw for me. I just won't suffer fools anymore. It doesn't ever pay to try and help a windows zealot. They never listen, and It hard to wash the slime off afterwords. At some point, Bill needed to stop being a greedy child, and become an adult. But that time is long since past. He's used everything he can find to his own advantage, and given very little back. I won't be a part of it anymore. If the company I'm working for puts a windows box on my desk, then so be it. Just give me a good terminal emulator, and leave me alone. The real work happens on the UNIX boxes anyway. *** Anyone else here feel like Linx is getting that way these days too?=20 You think you've wandered into a "Misfits of Science" cast reunion, only to find its a Linux user group. My guess is that parents all over the country have a brief respite, when their former OS/2 junkie grown children, leave the house for a few hours a month. And no, I'm not talking about Linus. The guys at slashdot maybe, but not Linus. *** Closed hardware lost. Open hardware won. Large economy of scale processors are winning. Will the PowerPC and PA-RISC go the way of MIPS? *** My big beef with the "X Windows System" is that it is just hideously ugly. What is it going to take for X to pick a good refresh rate without wading through all possible modelines? After all these years, why does it still look like crap? All of the BSD or Linux based distributions I've seen suffer from "X hesitation syndrome". If I put 400MHz of processor under a system with a good video card, why do I always have to watch GUI elements update? X is a turd, and it smells a little worse every day. Give it up. Yes, Windows is sad, but X is a crying shame. =20 And before someone brings out that old tired saw about "X" running great on low end 486 systems with small amounts of RAM, let me say that yes my tired old 486sx25 laptop looks great with W3.1 on it. *** The road of MicroSoft's journey is littered with the bodies of its traveling party. Its armories are full of weapons purchased from those it would rather not fight. Its larders are, well, full of lard. The band of merry men that make up the FreeBSD camp do rob from the rich. They take perls of wisdom from anywhere they can. Most of what they give is their own blood and sweat. But who wants to live in a forest full of dirty old men? You'll find varieties of little john, Robin Hood, the whole bunch. Err would that make Jordan.. Nah..) Its hard to find anyone who hasn't felt Bill's knife at their throat, or dagger in their back. And on the other end their is Stallman? Who would he be? I know, bad analogy.... *** I've not often approached a situation where UNIX or its tools fail me. I can say the same thing for MicroSoft. The differenc is that I have learned wisdom to expect almost nothing from Microsoft products. *** I can't emphasize enough the importance of using good parts and applications. I usually have good uptimes on both system types. I attribute good uptimes to not putting crappy applications on my systems. I get tired of trying to explain why its not rational to expect good results from a 2$ PCI network card. Whine with me: "But it works in wondows...". So go to cheapbytes and get RedHat! *** Good uptime means different things on different platforms. My FreeBSD uptime is limited to the frequency of my stupid mistakes. Typically I go a month or so between bouts of fatigue induced stupor. (My FreeBSD box lives at home.) In the case of Solaris, some obscure math involving the number of NFS clients involved and the amount of free RAM. Typically a week or two. On AIX, its usually some function of the size of a database's memory leak, and the amount of free RAM. Typically a few weeks to a month. (We have a reboot cycle.) On W95, my uptime is two times the average interval between new applications, the length of time between Netware server reboots, or the interval between me logging off, whichever is greater. Typically a day or two. Yes, going through a day on W95 without a crash seems right to me. *** What kind of crack is Sun smoking? Java can't be that counter intuitive, and still be a good thing. I'm not programming in the closet, if I can't tell people what language I write in without fear of lawsuits, then screw it! ATI would pimp their mother for a dollar! Why do people buy their worthless video cards? What kind of imbeciles run the show at 3Dfx? Why did they give their business away to Nvidia? Why is the average published author an idiot? Are all publishers morons? With windows being a moving target, will the Wine team eventually get to full windows 3.1 compatibility? *** Fun stuff. On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Tim Ryder wrote: > I dont see why everyone here hates windows. I am a > linux/bsd/windows user at home and windows user at > work. When I am home i use linux because it is > interesting, not because it is better, because it > really isnt better. When I go to work I use window > because its time to get some real work done. > =20 > All this talk about bsd and linux being better than > windows is bullshit. I have windows 2000 and when I > do anything on FreeBSD or Linux, it is always slower > then when I do it on windows and now with win 2000 > out, windows even has better memory management. >=20 > I like linux and freebsd, but I also know that right > now for the desktop and home use, windows 2000 is by > far the better option. I really hope that BSD or Linux > someday is better than windows and then I will use > them for everything, but until then you just cant beat > windows. >=20 > Tim Ryder > Developer >=20 >=20 > --- Greg Lehey wrote: > > ----- Forwarded message from dan@shearer.org ----- > >=20 > > > Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:32:50 +0930 (CST) > > > To: linuxsa@linuxsa.org.au > > > > > > Or, "additional query words remove disappear > > delete". > > > > > > Someone just posted to the Samba team along the > > following lines: "I > > > thought I would store my W2K Roaming Profile on my > > Samba server, just to > > > make me feel safer. Everything worked perfectly. > > Then I went to log off, > > > but it was taking forever. Then I noticed my Linux > > server's hard drive > > > light! After a quick check I switched off the > > power and then restarted in > > > single user mode. Large amounts of my home > > directory were gone!" > > > > > > For the information of readers who run mixed > > environments, and also for > > > anyone who likes a good laugh, here is the > > Microsoft Knowledgebase > > > article about the above situation. You don't need > > Samba to make it happen. > > > > > > =20 > > > http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q182/0/79.ASP?LN=3DEN-US= &SD=3Dgn&FR=3D0 > > > > > > Files Deleted from Home Directory on Logoff > > > > > > The information in this article applies to: > > > > > > Microsoft Windows NT Server version 4.0 > > > Microsoft Windows NT Server, Enterprise > > Edition version 4.0 > > > Microsoft Windows NT Workstation version 4.0 > > > Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional > > > Microsoft Windows 2000 Server > > > Microsoft Windows 2000 Advanced Server > > > > > > SYMPTOMS > > > > > > When a user logs off, all files in the home > > directory are deleted. > > > > > > > > > CAUSE > > > > > > Having both a Home Directory and Roaming Profile > > set to the same path is > > > a common cause of this. > > > > > > > > > RESOLUTION > > > > > > To correct this problem, perform the following > > steps: > > > > > > 1.Start User Manager for Domains, and select > > the User's properties. > > > > > > 2.Under the Profile properties, specify a > > profile path that is > > > different from the home directory path. > > > > > > It is acceptable to make the profile directory a > > subdirectory of the > > > home directory. > > > > > > For example: > > \\Server\Share\HomeDirectory\Profile. > > > > > > > > > MORE INFORMATION > > > > > > In the Windows NT 4.0 profiles and policies > > white paper ( > > >=20 > > > http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/management/deployment/planguide/prof_po= licies.asp), > > > there is documentation concerning the roaming > > profile path encompassing > > > the home directory path. > > > > > > Additional query words: remove disappear delete > > > > > > Keywords : ntdomain > > > Version : WINDOWS:2000; winnt:4.0 > > > Platform : WINDOWS winnt > > > Issue type : kbprb > > > Technology : > > > > > > > > > -- > > > LinuxSA WWW: http://www.linuxsa.org.au/ IRC: > > #linuxsa on irc.linux.org.au > > > To unsubscribe from the LinuxSA list: > > > mail linuxsa-request@linuxsa.org.au with > > "unsubscribe" as the subject > > > > >=20 > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > >=20 > > -- > > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > >=20 > >=20 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the > > message > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > jryder18@earthlink.net >=20 > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail =96 Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ >=20 >=20 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >=20 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 18: 0:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67E5737B5A8 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA42159; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:30:40 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:30:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jason Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Message-ID: <20000719103040.D12072@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000718165600.13757.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> <20000718224821.F19428@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <002301bff0df$8be558e0$9ccf1f40@pdq.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <002301bff0df$8be558e0$9ccf1f40@pdq.net> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 18 July 2000 at 12:42:29 -0500, Jason wrote: >> Tim Ryder said on Jul 18, 2000 at 09:56:00: >> Another thing: I think you missed the point of the original mail, >> which wasn't a general crib mail, but documented a specific deficiency >> in windows: namely, it sometimes automatically deletes files in the >> home area on logout if the "roaming profile directory" (whatever that >> is) is set to the home directory (though apparently you can safely set >> it to a subdirectory of the home directory). I think further comment >> is unnecessary. I challenge you to find anything comparable in the >> history of unix. > > There was a bug in /usr/sbin/pkg_add where while installing a ports package > that it received a ^c it would rm -rf the current users home directory. This > feature worked for some time on both FreeBSD and NetBSD. > > Satisfied? Not really. I don't recall this bug. When was it? How long was it there? Did people try to sell a "well don't do that then" as a solution? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 18: 4:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D07137B6E7 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:04:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA43429; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:33:43 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:33:43 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Neill Robins Cc: Tim Ryder , Adam , Jason , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Message-ID: <20000719103342.E12072@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000718195822.16555.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> <7140013563.20000718160750@nc.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <7140013563.20000718160750@nc.rr.com> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 18 July 2000 at 16:07:50 -0400, Neill Robins wrote: > Hello Tim, > Tuesday, July 18, 2000, 3:58:22 PM, you wrote: > TR> The truth of the matter is that no matter what you are > TR> using it is only as good as the person using it. > > Windows is great for my dad, who write emails, etc. But I find it > hard to believe that computers with 128mb of ram and 3-4 applications > (email, Netscape, editor) crash constantly and reliably. I don't have > time to keep rebooting. I don't even think Microsoft is good for writing emails. It produces some of the most consistently mutilated texts I have ever seen. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 18:10:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B3737B6E6 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:10:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA27902; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:09:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAdgayp2; Tue Jul 18 18:09:06 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA23615; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:10:12 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007190110.SAA23615@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: .gnu TLD To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:10:12 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Jul 17, 2000 06:10:49 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,37514,00.html > > > > Has anyone asked for a .bsd top level domain? > > > > IM*H*O both would be pretty needless, to put it mildly. He's right. We should just do the .bsd one. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 20: 0:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD0137B54E for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:00:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-64.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.64]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e6J2xrZ27925 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:59:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA42113 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:01:53 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200007190201.VAA42113@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: FreeBSD Chat From: David Kelly Subject: Re: The joys of Windows In-reply-to: Message from Stefan KORONKA of "Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:55:35 +0300." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:01:53 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stefan KORONKA writes: > > From: Tim Ryder [mailto:jawse@yahoo.com] > > I dont see why everyone here hates windows. I am a > > I don't hate windows; simply, it's worthless. > > > linux/bsd/windows user at home and windows user at > > work. When I am home i use linux because it is > > interesting, not because it is better, because it > > really isnt better. When I go to work I use window > > because its time to get some real work done. > > Well, I also use w2k, because this is what I'm paid for. > However, I plan to change this soon. Reminds me of something. Know how Windows is like dirt? Go to work and get dirty. Come home and wash it off. Look for a better job, one where you don't have to get dirty. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 20:28:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11FA137B5EA; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:28:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA69173; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:28:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:28:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Color ls In-Reply-To: <20000719041804.A52522@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > Speaking as a newcomer to BSD, it's hard to say we are forward looking and > have decent multimedia ability when we can't easily get 'ls' to show > color. Oh, this is just ludicrous. "ls -G" as multimedia? Please get a sense of perspective. > It's time to sell out. Colorls isn't THAT big of a deal if it makes people > happy. Adding it will make more people happy than leaving it out will. "Adding it"? Okay, so you *are* out of touch :-) Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 20:40:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F64C37B545; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:40:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13Ekj4-0005o2-00; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:40:50 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA52721; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:40:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:40:49 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Color ls Message-ID: <20000719044049.A52681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000719041804.A52522@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@freebsd.org on Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 08:28:54PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Oh, this is just ludicrous. "ls -G" as multimedia? Please get a sense of > perspective. That's my point. When friends of mine who have been sysadmin's for years complain about how plain-vanilla and generic the basic FreeBSD install is, and how much work it is to get it dialed in and 'friendly', i really don't know what to tell them. I babble on (like i am now) about how BSD is just more secure, or more refined, or whatever... when really i am wondering 'gee, have we managed to alienate another potential user here?' Everyone on the list is glad to point out that they 'must not be as advanced as they claim' but the fact is, they aren't idiots either. That's my job. ;) if i had trouble getting color to work on cons25 or even an xterm, i wouldn't be especially optimistic about something advanced, like playing mpegs, or even sound. I spent 2 months getting sound and my zip drive to work. I only stuck with it because BSD is more reliable. When i finally solved it, i was almost ready to go back to linux. I was lucky. And so i am contributing to EasyBSD to try to make it easier for others like me. > > It's time to sell out. Colorls isn't THAT big of a deal if it makes people > > happy. Adding it will make more people happy than leaving it out will. > > "Adding it"? Okay, so you *are* out of touch :-) I meant 'fixing it', if that is the right choice of words. To sum it all up, i get frustrated when 'progress' is alluded to as being a crutch for 'lusers'. Computers are a tool to make life easier. Why the hell does liking colors (which help the brain organize information better) warrant being labeled as a luser? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 20:51: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB3E37B517; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:50:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA71186; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:50:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:50:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Color ls In-Reply-To: <20000719044049.A52681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > > Oh, this is just ludicrous. "ls -G" as multimedia? Please get a sense of > > perspective. > > That's my point. No, your point was this: > it's hard to say we are forward looking and have decent multimedia > ability when we can't easily get 'ls' to show color. Anyone who thinks "multimedia ability" is in any way tied to the ability to show a directory listing using terminal colours is either stupid, or grossly ignorant of how computers work. Or perhaps we should add ls -S which plays ANSI music corresponding to the type of file it lists so we can have true "ls multimedia support". Would blinking characters correspond to "animation"? :-) > if i had trouble getting color to work on cons25 or even an xterm, i > wouldn't be especially optimistic about something advanced, like playing > mpegs, or even sound. I spent 2 months getting sound and my zip drive to > work. I only stuck with it because BSD is more reliable. When i finally > solved it, i was almost ready to go back to linux. I was lucky. And so i > am contributing to EasyBSD to try to make it easier for others like me. Well, all I can say is that I think most people don't find it that hard to get sound working. > > > It's time to sell out. Colorls isn't THAT big of a deal if it makes people > > > happy. Adding it will make more people happy than leaving it out will. > > > > "Adding it"? Okay, so you *are* out of touch :-) > > I meant 'fixing it', if that is the right choice of words. ls -G works fine. > To sum it all up, i get frustrated when 'progress' is alluded to as being a > crutch for 'lusers'. Computers are a tool to make life easier. Why the > hell does liking colors (which help the brain organize information better) > warrant being labeled as a luser? This isn't my argument with you..I called you on a dubious attempt to link colours in the output of ls(1) with system multimedia support, where none exists. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 21:10:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.102.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFF737BCF6; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:10:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA03232; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:10:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:10:39 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Kris Kennaway Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Color ls Message-ID: <20000718211039.A3108@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <20000719044049.A52681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 08:50:57PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 08:50:57PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > ls -G works fine. Except that it doesn't, out of the box, in an xterm. I would expect that a lot of new users do use X, at least part of the time! I've seen at least a few support questions on the topic so far, which is why I'm thinking about the best thing to do for new users. I'll work on, at least, a Handbook or FAQ entry on the topic soon. -- Matthew Hunt * Inertia is a property http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * of matter. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 21:51:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6878537BC7B for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:51:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 42097 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2000 04:51:39 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 19 Jul 2000 04:51:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 32474 invoked by uid 211); 19 Jul 2000 04:51:38 -0000 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:21:37 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: j mckitrick Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Color ls Message-ID: <20000719102137.A32398@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000719041804.A52522@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000719044049.A52681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000719044049.A52681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 04:40:49AM +0100 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick said on Jul 19, 2000 at 04:40:49: > That's my point. When friends of mine who have been sysadmin's for years > complain about how plain-vanilla and generic the basic FreeBSD install is, > and how much work it is to get it dialed in and 'friendly', i really don't > know what to tell them. I don't believe they're experienced Unix sysadmins. I'm not, my first sysadmining exposure was on linux perhaps three years ago, but I still found freebsd's install a breeze. > if i had trouble getting color to work on cons25 or even an xterm, i > wouldn't be especially optimistic about something advanced, like playing > mpegs, or even sound. I spent 2 months getting sound and my zip drive to I'd never done sound on FreeBSD before (the machine I used before doesn't have a sound card). I helped a friend to install it recently, and just read some basic docs on the FreeBSD web page and turned on a couple of kernel options, and this guy was stunned at the way it autodetected his PCI sound card on the next bootup. He was even more impressed that it found his ethernet card (I forget which one) which even Red Hat 6.2 could not. Granted, not all sound/ethernet cards are so easy, but they aren't on linux either. But speaking of cons25: it's one of my pet peeves, because it's incompatible with vt100. What happens is, we have an environment with this, linux and commercial unix living together, and when you telnet/ssh from one machine to another you get a message like "unknown terminal type {dtterm/linux/cons25}". The quick workaround there is to set term=vt100 in your login file, which works on all the machines -- except the FreeBSD console. (Yes I know about copying termcap entries, but it looked like too much trouble since people run X most of the time anyway. No problem in an xterm. Also I know about pcvt but couldn't get it to work properly with X for some reason.) > To sum it all up, i get frustrated when 'progress' is alluded to as being a > crutch for 'lusers'. Computers are a tool to make life easier. Why the > hell does liking colors (which help the brain organize information better) > warrant being labeled as a luser? I agree. I'm not fond of color-ls, but if people want it, why not; and I found syntax-highlighting in vim to be a *huge* help. The way people tend to flame vim on this list, because of its alleged bloat and incompatibility with "traditional" vi (when in fact it's more compatible than nvi, which freebsd uses) is not funny. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 22: 0:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A40837BC7A; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:00:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA79784; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:00:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:00:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Matthew Hunt Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Color ls In-Reply-To: <20000718211039.A3108@wopr.caltech.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yOn Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 08:50:57PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > ls -G works fine. > > Except that it doesn't, out of the box, in an xterm. I would Well, that wasn't the complaint. If xterm is broken by not including colour support in the default termcap, that's not ls -G's fault :-) Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 22: 4:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from emu.prod.itd.earthlink.net (emu.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3ABC37BB45 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:04:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@pool1181.cvx20-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net) Received: from pool1181.cvx20-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (pool1181.cvx20-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.254.161]) by emu.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09847; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by pool1162.cvx20-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00741; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:02:18 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Jason Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Message-ID: <20000718220217.A677@pool1162.cvx20-bradley.dialup.e> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <008201bff100$a3ad4980$9ccf1f40@pdq.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <008201bff100$a3ad4980$9ccf1f40@pdq.net>; from jsmethers@pdq.net on Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:39:23PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 04:39:23PM -0500, Jason wrote: > From: "Adam" > > I have workstations as well as servers. I run FreeBSD on them all. > > I just booted up FreeBSD on one, started XFree86, and am in icewm with an > > xterm open and top running. Mem: ~7.6M active, ~7.6M Inactive, 12M Wired, > > 32K Cache, 8112K Buf, 97M Free out of 128M total. The 7.6M and 32K cache > > and 8112K cache can be considered free also if you realize they can be > > paged out or shrunk if more mem is needed. 31 < 64. Yeah, better not take 64 MB on my 40 MB RAM notebook PC here, [112:~] ps aux | grep XF86 root 658 0.6 7.8 8244 2976 ?? S 9:40PM 0:11.65 /usr/X11R6/bin/X :0 (XF86_SVGA) [113:~] swapinfo Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/rad0s1b 61312 3772 57540 6% Interleaved Oops. emacs made somethin' swap out to do this email. > Again there are many variables to this whole discussion and it all comes > down to some personal intrest. > > I can't give specifiec numbers since I always revert my main machine back to > windows after having a period of having used FreeBSD and X. > > Last time I worked with the two using KDE, X's size started at about 40M and > by the time I had done some work or played around it would be up to 50M - > 55M. Whoa! What were you doing?! > Take into account instance of netscape, xtrem, etc., my memory usage ^^^^^^^^ Ahhh. All is explained. [snip] -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 22:18:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.blue-shift.net (dlci213-1.icsfm.com [207.151.141.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B6C37BD09 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:18:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethk@mail.blue-shift.net) Received: (from sethk@localhost) by mail.blue-shift.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA67587 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:20:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethk) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:20:50 -0700 From: Seth Kingsley To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Color ls Message-ID: <20000718222050.A67542@blue-shift.net> References: <20000719041804.A52522@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000719044049.A52681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000719102137.A32398@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000719102137.A32398@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 10:21:37AM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 10:21:37AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > j mckitrick said on Jul 19, 2000 at 04:40:49: > > That's my point. When friends of mine who have been sysadmin's for years > > complain about how plain-vanilla and generic the basic FreeBSD install is, > > and how much work it is to get it dialed in and 'friendly', i really don't > > know what to tell them. > > I don't believe they're experienced Unix sysadmins. I'm not, > my first sysadmining exposure was on linux perhaps three years ago, > but I still found freebsd's install a breeze. > > > if i had trouble getting color to work on cons25 or even an xterm, i > > wouldn't be especially optimistic about something advanced, like playing > > mpegs, or even sound. I spent 2 months getting sound and my zip drive to > > I'd never done sound on FreeBSD before (the machine I used before > doesn't have a sound card). I helped a friend to install it recently, > and just read some basic docs on the FreeBSD web page and turned on a > couple of kernel options, and this guy was stunned at the way it > autodetected his PCI sound card on the next bootup. He was even more > impressed that it found his ethernet card (I forget which one) which > even Red Hat 6.2 could not. Granted, not all sound/ethernet cards are > so easy, but they aren't on linux either. > > But speaking of cons25: it's one of my pet peeves, because it's > incompatible with vt100. What happens is, we have an environment with > this, linux and commercial unix living together, and when you > telnet/ssh from one machine to another you get a message like "unknown > terminal type {dtterm/linux/cons25}". The quick workaround there is > to set term=vt100 in your login file, which works on all the machines > -- except the FreeBSD console. > > (Yes I know about copying termcap entries, but it looked like too much > trouble since people run X most of the time anyway. No problem in > an xterm. Also I know about pcvt but couldn't get it to work properly > with X for some reason.) > > > To sum it all up, i get frustrated when 'progress' is alluded to as being a > > crutch for 'lusers'. Computers are a tool to make life easier. Why the > > hell does liking colors (which help the brain organize information better) > > warrant being labeled as a luser? > > I agree. I'm not fond of color-ls, but if people want it, why not; > and I found syntax-highlighting in vim to be a *huge* help. The way > people tend to flame vim on this list, because of its alleged bloat > and incompatibility with "traditional" vi (when in fact it's more > compatible than nvi, which freebsd uses) is not funny. But VIM comes installed by default with 'compatible with vi' settings, so that you can customize it in any way that you want from there, which in most people's cases includes syntax highlighting, but the idea is that when you first install and run it, you are not bombarded with loads of other people's customization already setup. This makes systems like RedHat hard to get used to because they already include so much of a default system that you find yourself having to remove it in order to start setting things up the way that you would prefer. This leads to more problems when things break and act strangely because parts of the configuration are still lurking somewhere. The most attractive thing about UNIX for me is that it provides a clean palette for me to build whatever kind of environment is most efficent and 'friendly' towards me, but I guess this only really applies to people who are willing to spend the time with it, and who will not necessarily like the kind of generalized, flashy things that are designed to appeal to a wide audience. I think that losing the separation of /bin/ls and the 'colorls' patches port is fine, but only if the corresponding aliases to display lists in color were _not_ added to the base shell startup files. -Seth -- // Seth Kingsley -- // // UNIX audio processing software et cetera // // http://www.blue-shift.net/ // To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 22:25:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B326B37B6E6; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:25:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA85374; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:25:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:25:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Seth Kingsley Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Color ls In-Reply-To: <20000718222050.A67542@blue-shift.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Seth Kingsley wrote: > I think that losing the separation of /bin/ls and the 'colorls' patches > port is fine, but only if the corresponding aliases to display lists > in color were _not_ added to the base shell startup files. Don't worry, some of us would never allow that :-) Kris P.S. Please don't quote entire messages when you respond -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 22:37:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eagle.prod.itd.earthlink.net (eagle.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 019F037BB45 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:37:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@pool0342.cvx20-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net) Received: from pool0342.cvx20-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (pool0342.cvx20-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.251.87]) by eagle.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09444; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by pool1181.cvx20-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00815; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:35:22 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Tim Ryder Cc: Adam , Jason , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Message-ID: <20000718223521.B677@pool1162.cvx20-bradley.dialup.e> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20000718195822.16555.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000718195822.16555.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com>; from jawse@yahoo.com on Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:58:22PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 12:58:22PM -0700, Tim Ryder wrote: > The truth of the matter is that no matter what you are > using it is only as good as the person using it. If > you work faster in windows then you will beleive that > windows is better and the same goes for all the > others. > As far as you X environment you cant compare the > functionality in ice with windows. Of course you use > less ram when using ice, ive used ice and while it is > nice and quick, it does not support what Gnome or KDE > do, like drag and drop. > Everyone keeps saying that things are easier to do in > linux/bsd over windows and then they go on to say that > they dont like windows because all that you do is > point and click - isnt that easier. Almost never. The first time you use something it might be faster, but once you've used anything a few times keyboard is much, much easier. When using something like MS Word, do you still click Edit->Cut then Edit->Paste or do you C-c then C-v? Heck, when I sit in front of a Win machine I go for that silly Window button on the keyboard and fire through the start menu without the mouse... You should see the confused look of the lusers as they watch over my shoulder. I used to love it when they asked how I could use Windows on the second machine in my old office since it didn't have a mouse. The absolute worst thing about point-and-click the inability to automate repetitive tasks. I had to change a bunch of IP addresses on a set of machines. Couldn't find a way better than pointing and clicking through Windoze every damn time whereas for the UNIX machines it took me a few keystrokes to create a bunch of scripts to do the change and a couple more to run it on the machines. And don't start me on the fact I needed to reboot each Win box for the change to take effect. Had a point-and-click app strike me today, and the scary part was that it was not Windows, but a Solaris machine. I got a phone call from someone who wanted to print something from an application. The app produced some kind of file listing, and he wanted the output in the format produced by this app. However, the genius who made the app had put a "Print" button on it, but no way to control where it printed. It only printed to the default printer and my caller wanted to print it to a file. It took me a couple of minutes to figure out how to get a Slowlaris box to print to a file as a default printer (could I have ever convinced Windows to do that? Well, if you count spooling it to a BSD print server which then prints it to a file, I could have done it from Windows too), but it wasn't too tough. The moral of the story, to me anyway, is that point-and-click generally dumbs down, reduces configurability, and utility. If it had been a nice useful command- line program making his pretty output, he could just redirect it to a file, pipe it to a printer, whatever. I can't resist one more. The GUI log viewer on Firewall-1 is a pretty toy, but whenever I want to do any complicated searching through the logs, I always end up dumping the log as flat ASCII and getting to town on it with awk or perl. The GUI gets frustrating and limits what I can do. awk and perl are pretty much limitless. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 22:46:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F1937BCD6 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:46:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A64D615510; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:46:27 -0700 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Color ls Message-ID: <20000718224627.C85745@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 4.0-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is Waning Gibbous (94% of Full) X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-PGP-KEY: http://www.oneinsane.net/~insane/insane2-pgp5i.txt X-Uptime: 10:46PM up 6 days, 23:06, 1 user, load averages: 1.00, 1.01, 1.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Kris Kennaway was heard blurting out: > On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > > > Speaking as a newcomer to BSD, it's hard to say we are forward looking and > > have decent multimedia ability when we can't easily get 'ls' to show > > color. > > Oh, this is just ludicrous. "ls -G" as multimedia? Please get a sense of > perspective. > > > It's time to sell out. Colorls isn't THAT big of a deal if it makes people > > happy. Adding it will make more people happy than leaving it out will. > > "Adding it"? Okay, so you *are* out of touch :-) > > Okay, This has moved to chat. No problem. But when showing someone my Favorite OS and they see color in mutt and color in slrn they like it. Color is pretty, It also takes away that all UNIX-like computers are not in monochrome. It takes a little harshness from the newbie. I also hate this too.. Linux does it.. Why can't we? I am no newbie to some but might be to others. I might not be able to code, so I put what I can back to the project any way I can. The reason for the aboe short paragraph is this OLD SCHOOL NEW SCHOOL crap. This is an operating system that is going to mature no matter what. At least we can try to keep it on track to were it is attractive/secure/functional to any new user that hears about it. Sorry for asking about ls -G in something other than cons25 TIA -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In Valen's name! They killed Dukhat! You bastards! ----- End forwarded message ----- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Faith which does not doubt is a dead faith." -- Unamuno To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 18 23:59:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from radius.city-guide.com (radius.cityisp.net [216.2.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA7837BD33 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@cityisp.net) Received: from enitech (unverified [216.2.8.218]) by radius.city-guide.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.2.181) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:10:52 -0400 Message-ID: <003701bff14f$22b4d510$da0802d8@CityGuide.com> From: "Chris Lynch" To: References: <20000719041804.A52522@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000719044049.A52681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000719102137.A32398@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: Color ls Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:00:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I don't believe they're experienced Unix sysadmins. I'm not, > my first sysadmining exposure was on linux perhaps three years ago, > but I still found freebsd's install a breeze. I don't believe that either. It may be an excuse. I tried FreeBSD, coming from a Windows environment. It installed rather easily, and took less time that I assumed it would.(I'd heard plenty of horror stories on how Unix acts strange on intel machines, mind you these remarks came from MCSE's) I think it has the best options for installation from any OS. You can control practically everything. Since, 2 years ago, I started the install being a complete newbie and got it going , I don't understand how someone woudl think it was complicated. Red hat is easy as well. As Far as sound cards go, I had a vibra16 SB and I asked a few questions and dug some info up and had it going in less than a day. I've been running FreeBSDas my desktop ever since. Well, since 2 weeks ago when my motherboard took a dump and the elcheapo DFI motherboard won't let me use non-plug and play cards ( you can set IRQ's for ISA, but, your Modem will not work. Only Plug and Play). So, now 2 and a half years later, I'm stuck with Windows again. Media Player is cool, but , the OS still pisses me off.... oh yeah, I didn't mean to rant about my motherboard....everyone here is sick of hearing about it as well! Later, Chris > > if i had trouble getting color to work on cons25 or even an xterm, i > > wouldn't be especially optimistic about something advanced, like playing > > mpegs, or even sound. I spent 2 months getting sound and my zip drive to > > I'd never done sound on FreeBSD before (the machine I used before > doesn't have a sound card). I helped a friend to install it recently, > and just read some basic docs on the FreeBSD web page and turned on a > couple of kernel options, and this guy was stunned at the way it > autodetected his PCI sound card on the next bootup. He was even more > impressed that it found his ethernet card (I forget which one) which > even Red Hat 6.2 could not. Granted, not all sound/ethernet cards are > so easy, but they aren't on linux either. > > But speaking of cons25: it's one of my pet peeves, because it's > incompatible with vt100. What happens is, we have an environment with > this, linux and commercial unix living together, and when you > telnet/ssh from one machine to another you get a message like "unknown > terminal type {dtterm/linux/cons25}". The quick workaround there is > to set term=vt100 in your login file, which works on all the machines > -- except the FreeBSD console. > > (Yes I know about copying termcap entries, but it looked like too much > trouble since people run X most of the time anyway. No problem in > an xterm. Also I know about pcvt but couldn't get it to work properly > with X for some reason.) > > > To sum it all up, i get frustrated when 'progress' is alluded to as being a > > crutch for 'lusers'. Computers are a tool to make life easier. Why the > > hell does liking colors (which help the brain organize information better) > > warrant being labeled as a luser? > > I agree. I'm not fond of color-ls, but if people want it, why not; > and I found syntax-highlighting in vim to be a *huge* help. The way > people tend to flame vim on this list, because of its alleged bloat > and incompatibility with "traditional" vi (when in fact it's more > compatible than nvi, which freebsd uses) is not funny. > > Rahul. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 0:33:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uranus.interscope.ro (ns.interscope.ro [193.226.188.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2E837BFB1 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:33:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from KoronkaS@interscope.ro) Received: by URANUS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:29:01 +0300 Message-ID: From: Stefan KORONKA To: 'David Kelly' , FreeBSD Chat Subject: RE: The joys of Windows Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:29:00 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: David Kelly [mailto:dkelly@hiwaay.net] > > Stefan KORONKA writes: > > > From: Tim Ryder [mailto:jawse@yahoo.com] > > > I dont see why everyone here hates windows. I am a > > > > I don't hate windows; simply, it's worthless. > > > > > linux/bsd/windows user at home and windows user at > > > work. When I am home i use linux because it is > > > interesting, not because it is better, because it > > > really isnt better. When I go to work I use window > > > because its time to get some real work done. > > > > Well, I also use w2k, because this is what I'm paid for. > > However, I plan to change this soon. > > Reminds me of something. Know how Windows is like dirt? Go to work > and get dirty. Come home and wash it off. Look for a better job, one > where you don't have to get dirty. > Do you really can't read all the message ?! Anyway, I'm not very old, but I used some systems.. In the highschool, I remember CP/M (not really used, it was just an older machine), some crap of Apple (didn't even know exactly what was it), and of course DOS for some 286s (and some XT too), Netware when we got an 386/486 network, Win3.11, and in the final year we got Win95 - at short time after that, I got an Linux - kernel 1.2.something. Hey, I know it isn't very much, but that was that time.. And the only way I could remember to get dirty is to open the case and put my hands in dust. I just finished the college. I had to work, and the only work I could find that time was this. It gave me a lot; the people here are cool. The fact that they use windoze doesn't mean they are like shit. Simply, is a matter of taste. Maybe they do like colors, and buttons, and menus and all other things I don't. But here I could play and test To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 0:37:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uranus.interscope.ro (ns.interscope.ro [193.226.188.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4E837B690 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:37:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from KoronkaS@interscope.ro) Received: by URANUS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:33:18 +0300 Message-ID: From: Stefan KORONKA To: 'David Kelly' , FreeBSD Chat Subject: RE: The joys of Windows Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:33:17 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oh God !!! Sorry for the previous unfinished message ... > From: David Kelly [mailto:dkelly@hiwaay.net] > > Stefan KORONKA writes: > > > From: Tim Ryder [mailto:jawse@yahoo.com] > > > I dont see why everyone here hates windows. I am a > > > > I don't hate windows; simply, it's worthless. > > > > > linux/bsd/windows user at home and windows user at > > > work. When I am home i use linux because it is > > > interesting, not because it is better, because it > > > really isnt better. When I go to work I use window > > > because its time to get some real work done. > > > > Well, I also use w2k, because this is what I'm paid for. > > However, I plan to change this soon. > > Reminds me of something. Know how Windows is like dirt? Go to work > and get dirty. Come home and wash it off. Look for a better job, one > where you don't have to get dirty. > Do you really can't read all the message ?! Anyway, I'm not very old, but I used some systems.. In the high school, I remember CP/M (not really used, it was just an older machine), some crap of Apple (didn't even know exactly what was it), and of course DOS for some 286s (and some XT too), Netware when we got an 386/486 network, Win3.11, and in the final year we got Win95 - at short time after that, I got an Linux - kernel 1.2.something. Hey, I know it isn't very much, but that was that time.. And the only way I could remember to get dirty is to open the case and put my hands in dust. I just finished the college. I had to work, and the only work I could find that time was this. It gave me a lot; the people here are cool. The fact that they use windoze doesn't mean they are like shit. Simply, is a matter of taste. Maybe they do like colors, and buttons, and menus and all other things I don't. But here I could play and test Linux, FreeBSD and all other things I could wish. The fact that I found in this things a better solution, is other story.. Anyway, I'll listen your advise. I'll go home, take a shower, and move in other town. Best, Stefan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 3:44: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7512837BDE9 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:44:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA25755 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:54:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:54:45 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Don't unplug that ... ::pfft:: Message-ID: <20000719205443.A4376@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How do those of you who work with a building full of microsoft and graphite users prevent kind hearted souls (and cleaners) from turning your machine off after you go home? Or at other times, for that matter. They just don't realise how much damage it can do, and how much damage it _won't_ do to leave it on. After the event they look at you with tears streaming out of big eyes and say "I didn't know! I'm so stupid!" but it's too late then, you've already maimed them. I've thought about leaving abusively threatening notes, applying superglue to the power switch, booby-trapping the floor, putting a rubber lady decked in lifesaving medical electronics in the chair and dimming the lights... These techniques all have problems, and office people are so inventive when it comes to doing innocent damage, it's hard to keep up with their reasoning and workarounds. BTW, there's hope for the world. Early this morning the guys at work (not unix users) snuck in and set up a new adjustable monitor stand for me, something they know I've wanted for ages. I'd left the machine on with the monitor turned off and keyboard covering part of the case, so that nobody would see a light and try to turn it off for me, which is the norm in this place. Anyway, the new toy was a wonderful surprise, so I resolved to hide any dismay at having to fsck after they'd probably turned my computer off and thrown it across the desk. But no, they hadn't turned it off, only unplugged the keyboard and mouse to reroute them. The machine was fine (other than the confused mouse, see -questions). Gee, in other places I've had people pull out the power plug just to help someone see where the power point is. But not all OtherOS users are dorks, eh :-) I still don't trust them not to do bad one day by trying too hard to do good. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 3:51:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883AC37BD51; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:51:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13ErS5-000J3H-00; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:51:45 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA55234; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:51:44 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:51:44 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Color ls Message-ID: <20000719115144.B55096@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000719044049.A52681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@freebsd.org on Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 08:50:57PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Anyone who thinks "multimedia ability" is in any way tied to the ability > to show a directory listing using terminal colours is either stupid, or > grossly ignorant of how computers work. This was a hyperbole (perhaps poorly chosen, i admit :) to illustrate the point that if it is this difficult, or at least non-intuitive to get a color 'ls' program working, it doesn't inspire faith in other issues being easy to fix. Again, i was making a casual comparison to linux, our closest relative whose users often give BSD a try. > Or perhaps we should add ls -S which plays ANSI music corresponding to the > type of file it lists so we can have true "ls multimedia support". Would > blinking characters correspond to "animation"? :-) I'll get right on it! ;) > > To sum it all up, i get frustrated when 'progress' is alluded to as being a > > crutch for 'lusers'. Computers are a tool to make life easier. Why the > > hell does liking colors (which help the brain organize information better) > > warrant being labeled as a luser? > > This isn't my argument with you..I called you on a dubious attempt to link > colours in the output of ls(1) with system multimedia support, where none > exists. I understand. Maybe i was unclear. This remark was actually a general response to a previous remark about colorls, but it wasn't from you. It was just a remark about colorls for 'lusers'. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 6:24:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D53037BDD7 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 06:23:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10518; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:24:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:24:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Don't unplug that ... ::pfft:: In-Reply-To: <20000719205443.A4376@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Sue Blake wrote: >How do those of you who work with a building full of microsoft and >graphite users prevent kind hearted souls (and cleaners) from turning >your machine off after you go home? Or at other times, for that matter. >They just don't realise how much damage it can do, and how much damage >it _won't_ do to leave it on. After the event they look at you with >tears streaming out of big eyes and say "I didn't know! I'm so stupid!" >but it's too late then, you've already maimed them. > >I've thought about leaving abusively threatening notes, applying Have you tried leaving a not-so-easy to remove note near the power switch saying Please leave on? If being polite doesn't work, maybe you can get lockable switch covers if the power switch is somewhere physically accomodating? Or turning off the monitor and disconnecting any led's that would give visual indication that power is on, assuming the power supply fan is not too loud? (You can buy quiet ones of those too if you were financially inclined) >superglue to the power switch, booby-trapping the floor, putting a >rubber lady decked in lifesaving medical electronics in the chair and >dimming the lights... These techniques all have problems, and office >people are so inventive when it comes to doing innocent damage, it's >hard to keep up with their reasoning and workarounds. > >BTW, there's hope for the world. Early this morning the guys at work >(not unix users) snuck in and set up a new adjustable monitor stand for >me, something they know I've wanted for ages. I'd left the machine on >with the monitor turned off and keyboard covering part of the case, so >that nobody would see a light and try to turn it off for me, which is >the norm in this place. > >Anyway, the new toy was a wonderful surprise, so I resolved to hide any >dismay at having to fsck after they'd probably turned my computer off >and thrown it across the desk. But no, they hadn't turned it off, only >unplugged the keyboard and mouse to reroute them. The machine was fine >(other than the confused mouse, see -questions). Gee, in other places >I've had people pull out the power plug just to help someone see where >the power point is. But not all OtherOS users are dorks, eh :-) I still >don't trust them not to do bad one day by trying too hard to do good. > > >-- > >Regards, > -*Sue*- > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 7:20:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uswgco34.uswest.com (uswgco34.uswest.com [199.168.32.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00DB37BDE8 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:20:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mmeola@uswest.com) Received: from egate-ut2.uswc.uswest.com (egate-ut2.uswc.uswest.com [148.157.122.199]) by uswgco34.uswest.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e6JEKiG18315 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:20:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from netmail3.uswc.uswest.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by egate-ut2.uswc.uswest.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e6JEKh321881 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:20:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kc0dxw.uswc.uswest.com ([151.116.151.204]) by netmail3.uswc.uswest.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA188C for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:20:27 -0600 Received: by kc0dxw.uswc.uswest.com (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 031874C1; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:20:25 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:20:25 -0600 From: "Matthew Meola" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Don't unplug that ... ::pfft:: Message-ID: <20000719082025.G62900@kc0dxw.uswc.uswest.com> References: <20000719205443.A4376@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000719205443.A4376@welearn.com.au>; from sue@welearn.com.au on Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 08:54:45PM +1000 X-URL: http://www.qsl.net/kc0dxw Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 08:54:45PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > How do those of you who work with a building full of microsoft and > graphite users prevent kind hearted souls (and cleaners) from turning > your machine off after you go home? Or at other times, for that matter. > They just don't realise how much damage it can do, and how much damage > it _won't_ do to leave it on. After the event they look at you with > tears streaming out of big eyes and say "I didn't know! I'm so stupid!" > but it's too late then, you've already maimed them. I prefer pictures implying acts of unspeakable violence. :-) Seriously, my thought is that someone who doesn't use a particular computer ought not to be touching it anyway -- if it is on your desk, and it is relatively for your exclusive use, then it's yours to muck with, and they ought to be warned away. High voltage works well, and it is rather easy to wire. Notes regarding anthrax contamination on the power button also work well. FWIW, 'Doze doesn't like to be arbitrarily powered down, either; if the office boneheads are doing that, well, then, I guess they deserve what they get. Unfortunately, they will continue to include you in the consequence of their own actions; see http://ecotopia.com/webpress/stupidity/ for reference. -- Matt Meola KC0DXW http://www.qsl.net/kc0dxw Bailey, CO ARES D6 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 8: 3:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from copland.udel.edu (copland.udel.edu [128.175.13.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A48437B7FD for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papalia@UDel.Edu) Received: from copland.udel.edu (copland.udel.edu [128.175.13.92]) by copland.udel.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08766 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:03:16 -0400 (EDT) From: John To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Don't unplug that ... ::pfft:: In-Reply-To: <20000719082025.G62900@kc0dxw.uswc.uswest.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > How do those of you who work with a building full of microsoft and > > graphite users prevent kind hearted souls (and cleaners) from turning > > your machine off after you go home? Or at other times, for that matter. > > They just don't realise how much damage it can do, and how much damage > > it _won't_ do to leave it on. After the event they look at you with > > tears streaming out of big eyes and say "I didn't know! I'm so stupid!" > > but it's too late then, you've already maimed them. At my last job, both the co-woker and cleaners issues were handled easily... maybe it's because the employees knew if they pissed me off they wouldn't get help very quickly though :) To stop the cleaners, we had the operations manager inform the cleaning service that they weren't to touch the computers, and if they did, they were financially responsible for any down time. That stopped them *really* fast. As for coworkers, it was a 'corporate memo' issued by IT and cc'ed to operations and the owner of the company again saying that people were not to be dinking with others computers and were not to be turning them off, given that they were in no way capable of knowing what tasks the computer might be performing, and that the computer they turn off might be performing a task that is required overnight, and turning it off will only result in the computer's main user going postal. You can also try to impose "corporate IT policy" that desktops should not be turned off at night at all. Good luck getting that to fly. :) Oh, and a post-it note over the power button saying "do not turn off - tasks are running" helped too. Sometimes direct information helps. If you're in a position where you don't have the power or authority, that's a problem, but you can find a work-around? Good luck.... there's always a way :) --John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 8: 5:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B764A37B835; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:05:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA69180; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:03:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:03:54 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: j mckitrick Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Color ls In-Reply-To: <20000719044049.A52681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, j mckitrick wrote: :> Oh, this is just ludicrous. "ls -G" as multimedia? Please get a sense of :> perspective. : :That's my point. When friends of mine who have been sysadmin's for years :complain about how plain-vanilla and generic the basic FreeBSD install is, :and how much work it is to get it dialed in and 'friendly', i really don't They smoke crack? On my desk, I have a FreeBSD box, an HP/UX workstation, a Solaris workstation, and a Windows box. The FreeBSD box took, by far, the least amount of time to get useful. Ports just rock. We even have a package that installs a bunch of stuff on the solaris box (top, Netscape, a couple of shells, and some other random stuff.). It still took me longer. If I were doing a hundred or three installs, solaris and HP/UX might actually be nicer, since it's somewhat easier to roll up a big bundle of stuff in a package. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 8:13:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF9D37B835 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA44083; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:13:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:13:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200007191513.RAA44083@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vinum X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8l2c48$m0a$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat Ben Smithurst wrote: > ok, who's going to give me the Perl one-liner to do that? FWIW, here's the shell one-liner. dc is your friend. :) olli@dorifer:~> echo 22322600044678729P | dc | rev IN VINO olli@dorifer:~> echo 22322600044678990P | dc | rev NO VINO There's no need to hack 10 lines of C or (even worse) one line of unreadable perl. ;) Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Addresses will change soon!! If in doubt: www.fromme.com "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 8:19:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA7BD37BEB5 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:19:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13Evcq-000914-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:19:08 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA57886 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:19:08 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:18:45 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: David Scheidt Subject: Re: Color ls Message-ID: <20000719161844.C57101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000719044049.A52681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 10:03:54AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Question: why does everyone seem to dislike solaris? If so, why is it used to much? jm -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org To Microsoft: "Your tyranny I was part of, is now cracking on every side. Now your own life is in danger. Your Empire is on fire." Front 242 ------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 9: 5:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from milquetoast.cs.mcgill.ca (milquetoast.CS.McGill.CA [132.206.2.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102E037BF50 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:05:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mat@milquetoast.cs.mcgill.ca) Received: (from mat@localhost) by milquetoast.cs.mcgill.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA11051; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:04:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:04:33 -0400 From: Mathew KANNER To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Don't unplug that ... ::pfft:: Message-ID: <20000719120433.E9412@cs.mcgill.ca> References: <20000719205443.A4376@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: Sue Blake's message [Don't unplug that ... ::pfft::] as of Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 08:54:45PM +1000 Organization: SOCS, McGill University, Montreal, CANADA Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jul 19, Sue Blake wrote: > How do those of you who work with a building full of microsoft and > graphite users prevent kind hearted souls (and cleaners) from turning > your machine off after you go home? Or at other times, for that matter. > They just don't realise how much damage it can do, and how much damage > it _won't_ do to leave it on. After the event they look at you with > tears streaming out of big eyes and say "I didn't know! I'm so stupid!" > but it's too late then, you've already maimed them. > > I've thought about leaving abusively threatening notes, applying > superglue to the power switch, booby-trapping the floor, putting a > rubber lady decked in lifesaving medical electronics in the chair and > dimming the lights... These techniques all have problems, and office > people are so inventive when it comes to doing innocent damage, it's > hard to keep up with their reasoning and workarounds. Um, how about using apm to refuse the power button on the front of the machine (assuming ATX). They would have to go the extra mile to shut off the machine. Nice rant btw. --Mat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 9:43:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D4737BFBB for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:43:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA45969; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:43:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:43:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200007191643.SAA45969@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Don't unplug that ... ::pfft:: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8l4k43$28f1$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat Mathew KANNER wrote: > Um, how about using apm to refuse the power button on the > front of the machine (assuming ATX). They would have to go the extra > mile to shut off the machine. In the case of ATX machines, you can just unplug the "soft" power switch from the mainboard. You can also unplug the "hard" power switch (which is usually at the power supply on the back of the machine) and "hardwire" it inside the power supply. Of course, you have to be very careful doing that. The latter also works for non-ATX computer cases. Of course, it doesn't prevent anyone from pulling the plug from the wall. And apart from that, it might frighten innocent people when pressing the power button has no effect. They might think there's a daemon inside... Sorry for the pun. :) Maybe revisit the superglue idea... ;-) Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Addresses will change soon!! If in doubt: www.fromme.com "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 9:46: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E2C37B883 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:45:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6JGjjx02386; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:45:45 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Don't unplug that ... ::pfft:: Message-ID: <20000719094545.T13979@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000719205443.A4376@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20000719205443.A4376@welearn.com.au>; from sue@welearn.com.au on Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 08:54:45PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Sue Blake [000719 03:45] wrote: > How do those of you who work with a building full of microsoft and > graphite users prevent kind hearted souls (and cleaners) from turning > your machine off after you go home? Or at other times, for that matter. Late night top 10 ways to avoid getting your computer shut off: 1) Issue company memo for people to mind thier own business. 2) Wire the case so that the power button _really_ is the 'power button'. *BZZZT* 3) Install motion detector and voice siren: "*you are too close to the computer*" 3) Outline computer with petagram, get candles, light the candles when you leave your workstation. 4) two words: goat's blood. 5) stealth: disconnect power light LED. 6) not so stealth: machete 7) keep computer in safe. 8) guard dogs. 9) Cover computer with yellow biohazard stickers. 10) Cover the power button with organ donor card. hope this helps, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 10:36: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 65E4937BF17 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:35:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 39756279-1651E, Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:10:33 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (please do not reply to this address) X-Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:10:32 +0100 Subject: Re: Color ls Message-ID: <39756279.1651E@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:10:33 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 08:50:57PM -0700, Kris Kennaway > wrote: > >> ls -G works fine. > > Except that it doesn't, out of the box, in an xterm. I must say, I'm surprised at Kris :-) On the machine (4.0) I'm on: $ ls -G ls: illegal option -- G usage: ls [-ACFHLPRTWacdfgiklnoqrstu1] [file ...] $ -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 10:36:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 62DE437BFB0 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:36:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 397565B2-16551, Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:24:18 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (please do not reply to this address) X-Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:24:18 +0100 Subject: Re: The joys of Windows Message-ID: <397565B2.16551@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:24:18 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg wrote: > On Tuesday, 18 July 2000 at 16:07:50 -0400, Neill Robins wrote: >> Windows is great for my dad, who write emails, etc. ... > I don't even think Microsoft is good for writing emails. It > produces some of the most consistently mutilated texts I have > ever seen. Have to aggree with you, Greg. And (cheap shot) what about those MS email viruses :-) -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 11: 6:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B557B37B5A5 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:06:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 56669 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2000 18:06:33 -0000 Received: from theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 19 Jul 2000 18:06:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 25039 invoked by uid 211); 19 Jul 2000 18:06:31 -0000 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:36:30 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: ORBS vs MAPS Message-ID: <20000719233630.A24976@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Any takes on this? Is the "opposing viewpoint" available anywhere on the web? http://www.orbs.org/hallofshame.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/12045.html Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 11:50:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D3A37B5EE for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24439; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:24:45 -0400 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA59819; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:49:40 GMT (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:49:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Rick Hamell Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Rick Hamell wrote: > trouble shoot conflicts. FreeBSD takes a couple of hours, 30 minutes if I > don't recompile the kernal. Ah, the joys of remotely compiling. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 11:54:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (astrovan.cstone.net [209.145.64.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5988837B5EE for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from cstone.net ([209.145.93.143]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:46:48 -0400 Message-ID: <3975F963.52BD9FFF@cstone.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:54:27 -0400 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ORBS vs MAPS References: <20000719233630.A24976@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Any takes on this? Is the "opposing viewpoint" available anywhere > on the web? > http://www.orbs.org/hallofshame.html > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/12045.html It was all the rage on SPAM-L for a while...:-) However, no one from MAPS responded to the queries about it. They've been eerily silent... There was also a discussion on http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2000/7/18/05335/5018 SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - Geek-a-mondo "Extra ninjas make any party, family gathering, or war scene tons more interesting." http://www.ninjahypothesis.com/messenger.htm ObCompanyPlug: http://www.mrgoodbucks.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 13:35:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2025337C039 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:35:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27831; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:34:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000719143128.04bbea90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:34:11 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: ORBS vs MAPS In-Reply-To: <20000719233630.A24976@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Many people do not like ORBS' extreme hard core positions on some issues, but there is certainly no excuse for fraudulent advertising of routes. If MAPS succeeds, it should do so on its merits. --Brett At 12:06 PM 7/19/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Any takes on this? Is the "opposing viewpoint" available anywhere >on the web? > http://www.orbs.org/hallofshame.html > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/12045.html > >Rahul. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 14:55:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA59837BBF8; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:55:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA15992; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:55:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:55:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Color ls In-Reply-To: <20000718224627.C85745@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: > Sorry for asking about ls -G in something other than cons25 I have already told you what the conditions are for ls -G to work. Others are talking about how to fix the default xterm configurations to allow this as well. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 14:57: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (unknown [206.79.44.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB1537B711 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:57:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA04123; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:58:18 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:58:18 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: please do not reply to this address Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Color ls Message-ID: <20000719225818.A4095@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> References: <39756279.1651E@funbox.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <39756279.1651E@funbox.demon.co.uk>; from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk on Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 09:10:33AM +0100 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 09:10:33AM +0100, please do not reply to this address wrote: > I must say, I'm surprised at Kris :-) On the machine (4.0) I'm on: > > $ ls -G > ls: illegal option -- G > usage: ls [-ACFHLPRTWacdfgiklnoqrstu1] [file ...] Either install the port or upgrade to 4.1 N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 14:58:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83FCF37C091; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:58:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA16407; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:58:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:58:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: please do not reply to this address Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Color ls In-Reply-To: <39756279.1651E@funbox.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, please do not reply to this address wrote: > > Except that it doesn't, out of the box, in an xterm. > > > I must say, I'm surprised at Kris :-) On the machine (4.0) I'm on: > > $ ls -G > ls: illegal option -- G > usage: ls [-ACFHLPRTWacdfgiklnoqrstu1] [file ...] > $ Upgrade to a later version of FreeBSD. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k > ======================================================================== Okay, I'm not going to do that: either set Reply-To: in your headers, or include your real address without funky spacing so I can cut and paste it, at the very least. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 14:58:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F5537BEB7 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:58:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.255.97.19]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000719215832.ZEMD26680.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain> for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:58:32 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA02327 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:58:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:58:08 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Humour: The word according to Dot Message-ID: <20000719225808.A239@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org An old, bearded shepherd with a crooked staff, walks up to a stone pulpit and says... And lo it came to pass that the trader by the name of Abraham Com did take unto himself a young wife by the name of Dot. And Dot Com was a comely woman, broad of shoulder and long of leg. Indeed, she had once been called Amazon Dot Com. And she said unto Abraham, her husband, "Why doth thou travel far, from town to town, with thy goods when thou can trade without ever leaving thy tent?" And Abraham did look at her as though she were several saddle bags short of a camel load, but simply said, "How, Dear?" And Dot replied, "I will place drums in all the towns and drums in between to send messages saying what you have for sale and they will reply telling you which hath the best price. And the sale can be made on the drums and delivery by Uriah's Pony Stable (UPS)". Abraham thought long and decided he would let Dot have her way with the drums, as long as he could have his way with her. And Dot said, "There will be a lot of banging in the land". And Abraham replied, "It is my most fervent wish that this be so". And the drums rang out and were an immediate success. Abraham sold all the goods he had, at the top price, without ever moving from his tent. But his success did arouse envy. A man named Maccabia did secrete himself inside Abraham's drum and was accused of insider trading. And the young did take to Dot Com's trading as doth the greedy horsefly to camel dung. They were called Nomadic Ecclesiastical Rich Dominican Siderites, or NERDS for short. And lo, the land was so feverish with joy at the new riches and the deafening sound of drums, that no one noticed that the real riches were going to the drum maker, one Brother William of Gates, who bought up every drum company in the land. And indeed did insist on making drums that would only work if you bought Brother Gates' drumsticks. And Dot did say, "Oh, Abraham, what we have started is being taken over by others". And as Abraham looked out over the Bay of Ezekiel, or as it came to be known, "eBay," he said, "We need a name of a service that reflects what we are." And Dot replied, "Young Ambitious Hebrew Owner Operators". "Whoopee!", said Abraham. "No, YAHOO!" said Dot Com. -- If I buy a copy of WinDelete, and it doesn't delete Windows, am I entitled to my money back? ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 15:37: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8B537B5CC for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:37:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:36:34 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: RE: ORBS vs MAPS Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:37:06 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000719143128.04bbea90@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Many people do not like ORBS' extreme hard core positions on some > issues, but there is certainly no excuse for fraudulent advertising > of routes. If MAPS succeeds, it should do so on its merits. > > --Brett Since it's entirely among entities that have given informed written consent, it's quite a stretch to call it fraudulent. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 16:41:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF3D37B95C for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:41:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup183.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.19.183]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C70BDB19; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:41:13 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:10:53 +0200 To: "David Schwartz" , "Brett Glass" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , From: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: ORBS vs MAPS Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:37 PM -0700 2000/7/19, David Schwartz wrote: > Since it's entirely among entities that have given informed written > consent, it's quite a stretch to call it fraudulent. I have to disagree. The MAPS eBGP4 routing tables are supposed to be used for the specific purpose of black-holing all packets going to or coming from servers that are generating lots of spam or are actively allowing themselves to be abused for relaying lots of spam, and for whom repeated attempts to get them to fix their problem have fallen on deaf ears. While I disagree with a lot of the things that the ORBS project does, I don't see it doing any of these things, and therefore there is no reason why they should be having packets to/from them being black-holed across all ISPs that having peering agreements with Above.Net or other networks that are actively advertising these routes. This is affecting more people than just those that are subscribing to MAPS -- even networks that aren't subscribed to MAPS, but are peers of Above.Net, are seeing these bogus routes, and in all probability are propagating these bogus routes. I haven't heard Dave's or Paul's side of this matter, and I think I know them well enough to give them a great deal of "benefit of the doubt", however given what little I've heard so far, it really does sound to me like they are doing themselves a grave dis-service in this matter, and at precisely the sort of time that they don't want or need to be unnecessarily muddying the waters, what with the other legal battles they're already embroiled in. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 17: 1:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2359837B908 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:01:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac7.wam.umd.edu (root@rac7.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.147]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07462 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac7.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac7.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA15359 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac7.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac7.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15354 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200007200001.UAA15354@rac7.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac7.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Great c|Net Headline... Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:01:27 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mounting loss sends Veritas shares lower" http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-2293864.html?tag=st.ne.ron.lthd.ni To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 17: 5: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D2937B824 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA51075; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:04:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Mathew KANNER Cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Don't unplug that ... ::pfft:: References: <20000719205443.A4376@welearn.com.au> <20000719120433.E9412@cs.mcgill.ca> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Jul 2000 02:04:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: Mathew KANNER's message of "Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:04:33 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mathew KANNER writes: > Um, how about using apm to refuse the power button on the > front of the machine (assuming ATX). They would have to go the extra > mile to shut off the machine. The extra mile of holding the button pressed all of *four* *seconds*? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 17:15:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from milquetoast.cs.mcgill.ca (milquetoast.CS.McGill.CA [132.206.2.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0027337BCFD for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:15:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mat@milquetoast.cs.mcgill.ca) Received: (from mat@localhost) by milquetoast.cs.mcgill.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA20733; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:14:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:14:56 -0400 From: Mathew KANNER To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mathew KANNER , Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Don't unplug that ... ::pfft:: Message-ID: <20000719201456.A18988@cs.mcgill.ca> References: <20000719205443.A4376@welearn.com.au> <20000719120433.E9412@cs.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav's message [Re: Don't unplug that ... ::pfft::] as of Thu, Jul 20, 2000 at 02:04:49AM +0200 Organization: SOCS, McGill University, Montreal, CANADA Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jul 19, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Mathew KANNER writes: > > Um, how about using apm to refuse the power button on the > > front of the machine (assuming ATX). They would have to go the extra > > mile to shut off the machine. > > The extra mile of holding the button pressed all of *four* *seconds*? We're talking about windows goofs. I once had a roommate who thought he had to unplug his computer every time it froze, which was, of course, frequent. --Mat > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 17:24: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3.gte.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9998A37B816 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:24:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop3.gte.net with ESMTP ; id TAA299514 Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:20:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:24:11 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: David Kelly Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The joys of Windows In-Reply-To: <200007190201.VAA42113@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nah, bad analogy. Even dirt is good for something. [RC] On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, David Kelly wrote: > Stefan KORONKA writes: > > > From: Tim Ryder [mailto:jawse@yahoo.com] > > > I dont see why everyone here hates windows. I am a > > > > I don't hate windows; simply, it's worthless. > > > > > linux/bsd/windows user at home and windows user at > > > work. When I am home i use linux because it is > > > interesting, not because it is better, because it > > > really isnt better. When I go to work I use window > > > because its time to get some real work done. > > > > Well, I also use w2k, because this is what I'm paid for. > > However, I plan to change this soon. > > Reminds me of something. Know how Windows is like dirt? Go to work > and get dirty. Come home and wash it off. Look for a better job, one > where you don't have to get dirty. > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 17:48:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B3237C0DB for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:48:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([216.152.68.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:47:57 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brad Knowles" , "Brett Glass" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: RE: ORBS vs MAPS Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:48:28 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 3:37 PM -0700 2000/7/19, David Schwartz wrote: > > > Since it's entirely among entities that have given informed written > > consent, it's quite a stretch to call it fraudulent. > I have to disagree. The MAPS eBGP4 routing tables are supposed > to be used for the specific purpose of black-holing all packets going > to or coming from servers that are generating lots of spam or are > actively allowing themselves to be abused for relaying lots of spam, > and for whom repeated attempts to get them to fix their problem have > fallen on deaf ears. ORBS consistently attempts to pass email through other people's machines through the use of spoofed headers. This is illegal in many jurisdictions. IMO, a single spoofed header is SPAM and network abuse. > While I disagree with a lot of the things that the ORBS project > does, I don't see it doing any of these things, and therefore there > is no reason why they should be having packets to/from them being > black-holed across all ISPs that having peering agreements with > Above.Net or other networks that are actively advertising these > routes. Err, they send email with forged headers. > This is affecting more people than just those that are > subscribing to MAPS -- even networks that aren't subscribed to MAPS, > but are peers of Above.Net, are seeing these bogus routes, and in all > probability are propagating these bogus routes. No, Above.Net is not propogating any bogus routes. I'm looking at all the routes I'm getting from Above.Net right now, and the only one I see for ORBS is "4648 6461". 4648 is Netgate, New Zealand. This is the correct route and originated at ORBS' provider. What Above.Net is doing, on the other hand, is refusing to carry traffic across its network from a site that consistently violates the law. > I haven't heard Dave's or Paul's side of this matter, and I think > I know them well enough to give them a great deal of "benefit of the > doubt", however given what little I've heard so far, it really does > sound to me like they are doing themselves a grave dis-service in > this matter, and at precisely the sort of time that they don't want > or need to be unnecessarily muddying the waters, what with the other > legal battles they're already embroiled in. Personally, I'm glad they did. ORBS has been rogue and ignoring the law for months now. It's about time somebody put a stop to them. I'm much happier seeing it done commercially, through providers regulating their own traffic, then through government regulation. I don't speak for them though, so their reasons may not be the same as I imagine they are. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 19 19:37:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91F7A37B9A3 for ; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-5-21.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.21]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e6K2b9Z23944; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:37:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA47135; Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:36:32 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200007200236.VAA47135@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: The Clark Family Cc: FreeBSD Chat From: David Kelly Subject: Re: The joys of Windows In-reply-to: Message from The Clark Family of "Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:24:11 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:36:32 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Clark Family writes: > Nah, bad analogy. Even dirt is good for something. Thank-you: I believe RC understood what I was saying. You have to have dirt to have something to contrast not-dirt with. One has to experience dirt to have an informed opinion that dirt is something one wishes to avoid. Then come home and "shower" the dirt off with FreeBSD. > On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, David Kelly wrote: [...] > > Reminds me of something. Know how Windows is like dirt? Go to work > > and get dirty. Come home and wash it off. Look for a better job, one > > where you don't have to get dirty. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 0:33: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8309237BC0D for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:32:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13FAnq-000CV4-00; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:31:30 +0200 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:31:30 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: j mckitrick Cc: David Scheidt , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Color ls Message-ID: <20000720093130.A47936@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000719044049.A52681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000719161844.C57101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000719161844.C57101@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 04:18:45PM +0100 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed 2000-07-19 (16:18), j mckitrick wrote: > Question: why does everyone seem to dislike solaris? If so, why is it used > to much? "Everyone" doesn't. It may seem that way because most people ignore outbursts against other OSen which they either like or don't have anything against, and also if they're of the opinion that slagging off an OS on a mailing list is a waste of time. (cf. "Why does everyone seem to dislike Linux on FreeBSD lists?") "Why do so many people dislike Y?" "If so, why is Y used so much?". s/Y/Microsoft Windows/ (or whatever floats your boat, but that probably has a better hit-rate) Now, does it make sense that simply because more people use it that less people dislike it? Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 0:45:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mout1.silyn-tek.de (mout1.silyn-tek.de [194.25.165.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 632E237B988 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:45:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from [192.168.32.33] (helo=mx1.silyn-tek.de) by mout1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13FB1d-0000EY-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:45:45 +0200 Received: from p3e9c115b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.156.17.91] helo=neutron.cichlids.com) by mx1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13FB1Z-0008Av-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:45:42 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98CE5AB91 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:47:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4C19814ABB; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:45:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:45:42 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vinum Message-ID: <20000720094542.A32045@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <8l2c48$m0a$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200007191513.RAA44083@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200007191513.RAA44083@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de>; from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de on Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:13:08PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Oliver Fromme (olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de): > FWIW, here's the shell one-liner. dc is your friend. :) > olli@dorifer:~> echo 22322600044678729P | dc | rev > IN VINO Oh, that is nice. However, dc is an odd tool. Very strange. Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 0:49:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uranus.interscope.ro (ns.interscope.ro [193.226.188.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EFF37B5DF for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from KoronkaS@interscope.ro) Received: by URANUS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:44:49 +0300 Message-ID: From: Stefan KORONKA To: 'David Kelly' Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: RE: The joys of Windows Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:44:48 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The Clark Family writes: > > Nah, bad analogy. Even dirt is good for something. > > Thank-you: I believe RC understood what I was saying. > > You have to have dirt to have something to contrast not-dirt with. One > has to experience dirt to have an informed opinion that dirt is > something one wishes to avoid. Ah, I've got your point now. I agree with it. Thank you for clear my mind :) Stefan > > Then come home and "shower" the dirt off with FreeBSD. > > > On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, David Kelly wrote: > [...] > > > Reminds me of something. Know how Windows is like dirt? > Go to work > > > and get dirty. Come home and wash it off. Look for a > better job, one > > > where you don't have to get dirty. > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 1:32: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E147737BB90 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:32:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7411DB66; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:31:53 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:01:43 +0200 To: "David Schwartz" , "Brett Glass" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , From: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: ORBS vs MAPS Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:48 PM -0700 2000/7/19, David Schwartz wrote: > ORBS consistently attempts to pass email through other people's machines > through the use of spoofed headers. This is illegal in many jurisdictions. > IMO, a single spoofed header is SPAM and network abuse. No, they don't spoof any headers at all. In fact, they clearly label all the test e-mail they send as being from their testing server. They do try all the same standard tricks on the sender and recipient addresses that junkmailers are known to try, to see if the machine in question might not properly look inside quotes, or mistakenly think that they can trust the claimed envelope sender as opposed to looking at the IP address, etc.... However, this isn't spoofing headers. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 1:34: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DA77A37BCCB for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:33:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 59649 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2000 08:33:42 -0000 Received: from theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 20 Jul 2000 08:33:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 3946 invoked by uid 211); 20 Jul 2000 08:33:37 -0000 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:03:36 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Brad Knowles , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ORBS vs MAPS Message-ID: <20000720140336.B3838@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: David Schwartz , Brad Knowles , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from davids@webmaster.com on Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 05:48:28PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.32 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > This is affecting more people than just those that are > > subscribing to MAPS -- even networks that aren't subscribed to MAPS, > > but are peers of Above.Net, are seeing these bogus routes, and in all > > probability are propagating these bogus routes. > > No, Above.Net is not propogating any bogus routes. I'm looking at all the > routes I'm getting from Above.Net right now, and the only one I see for ORBS > is "4648 6461". 4648 is Netgate, New Zealand. This is the correct route and > originated at ORBS' provider. It seems the mistake is Telecom NZ's and not above.net's, at least there are some posts on deja.com (links posted on slashdot) which say that. But I haven't seen any "public" response from the MAPS people. http://x53.deja.com/threadmsg_ct.xp?AN=638630157.1&mhitnum=346 Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 1:39:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90BD37BB93 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:39:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13FBq8-000Clg-00; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:37:56 +0200 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:37:56 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brad Knowles Cc: David Schwartz , Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ORBS vs MAPS Message-ID: <20000720103756.A49001@mithrandr.moria.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Thu, Jul 20, 2000 at 10:01:43AM +0200 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 2000-07-20 (10:01), Brad Knowles wrote: > > ORBS consistently attempts to pass email through other people's machines > > through the use of spoofed headers. This is illegal in many jurisdictions. > > IMO, a single spoofed header is SPAM and network abuse. > > No, they don't spoof any headers at all. In fact, they clearly > label all the test e-mail they send as being from their testing > server. > > They do try all the same standard tricks on the sender and > recipient addresses that junkmailers are known to try, to see if the > machine in question might not properly look inside quotes, or > mistakenly think that they can trust the claimed envelope sender as > opposed to looking at the IP address, etc.... > > However, this isn't spoofing headers. Of course, if I attempt to block their spam, by blackholing their traffic, or bouncing all mail from them, or whatever action I'd take with any other spammer, I get added to their list. Friendly, eh? While I tend to keep out of spam wars, I got really pissed off when the student server I was helping to administer was added to ORBS because it "shared a nameserver with" a machine at another university over 1000 kilometers away. Scary. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 1:40:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562AE37BC8B for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([216.152.68.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:40:01 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brad Knowles" , "Brett Glass" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: RE: ORBS vs MAPS Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:40:32 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 5:48 PM -0700 2000/7/19, David Schwartz wrote: > > > ORBS consistently attempts to pass email through other > > people's machines > > through the use of spoofed headers. This is illegal in many > > jurisdictions. > > IMO, a single spoofed header is SPAM and network abuse. > No, they don't spoof any headers at all. In fact, they clearly > label all the test e-mail they send as being from their testing > server. > They do try all the same standard tricks on the sender and > recipient addresses that junkmailers are known to try, to see if the > machine in question might not properly look inside quotes, or > mistakenly think that they can trust the claimed envelope sender as > opposed to looking at the IP address, etc.... > However, this isn't spoofing headers. So you are saying that if they are testing 'mail.foo.com', they don't try claiming that their mail is from 'foo@mail.foo.com'? If not, they wouldn't catch open relays that allow any mail with a local sender address. I find that _very_ hard to believe. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 2:28:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97DC237B625 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:28:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7425181B1; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:28:29 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000720103756.A49001@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000720103756.A49001@mithrandr.moria.org> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:18:14 +0200 To: Neil Blakey-Milner From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: ORBS vs MAPS Cc: David Schwartz , Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:37 AM +0200 2000/7/20, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > Of course, if I attempt to block their spam, by blackholing their > traffic, or bouncing all mail from them, or whatever action I'd take > with any other spammer, I get added to their list. Friendly, eh? Well, if you want to block their ability to confirm that your machine(s) is/are secure, then you have to take the consequences of having your server(s) added to their lists. It's unpleasant, yes. However, that's the way it is. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 2:28:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9B137B79B for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:28:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224481822C; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:28:40 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:23:04 +0200 To: "David Schwartz" , "Brett Glass" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , From: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: ORBS vs MAPS Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:40 AM -0700 2000/7/20, David Schwartz wrote: > So you are saying that if they are testing 'mail.foo.com', they don't try > claiming that their mail is from 'foo@mail.foo.com'? If not, they wouldn't > catch open relays that allow any mail with a local sender address. No, that's clearly one of the things they do try, but I believe that they use an envelope sender address something like "orbs-tester@mail.foo.com", so as to give you an indication that this is a test. They aren't trying to hide their identity, and they aren't forging the headers, because headers != envelope address. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 2:50: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E18337BB3E for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:49:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13FCxC-000D64-00; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:49:18 +0200 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:49:18 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brad Knowles Cc: David Schwartz , Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ORBS vs MAPS Message-ID: <20000720114917.A50306@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000720103756.A49001@mithrandr.moria.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Thu, Jul 20, 2000 at 11:18:14AM +0200 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 2000-07-20 (11:18), Brad Knowles wrote: > > Of course, if I attempt to block their spam, by blackholing their > > traffic, or bouncing all mail from them, or whatever action I'd take > > with any other spammer, I get added to their list. Friendly, eh? > > Well, if you want to block their ability to confirm that your > machine(s) is/are secure, then you have to take the consequences of > having your server(s) added to their lists. It's unpleasant, yes. > However, that's the way it is. That's the way it is, yes. Of course, you can't possibly justify this behaviour, and thus should never consider using their unethical "service". They're just pissed off because not everyone in the world thinks they are "providing a service to the community". That's because they're not. I wish they'd grow up and leave my secure machines alone, because _I_ know what I'm doing when I decide to block their unwarranted attempt to relay mail. They don't have any rational reason to add me to their lists for this. Keep me in their lists, possibly. Add me, no. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 3: 2:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93E437BF60 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:02:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([216.152.68.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:02:00 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brad Knowles" , "Brett Glass" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: RE: ORBS vs MAPS Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:02:31 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 1:40 AM -0700 2000/7/20, David Schwartz wrote: > > > So you are saying that if they are testing 'mail.foo.com', > > they don't try > > claiming that their mail is from 'foo@mail.foo.com'? If not, > > they wouldn't > > catch open relays that allow any mail with a local sender address. > No, that's clearly one of the things they do try, but I believe > that they use an envelope sender address something like > "orbs-tester@mail.foo.com", so as to give you an indication that this > is a test. > They aren't trying to hide their identity, and they aren't > forging the headers, because headers != envelope address. No law that I know of makes any such distinction. HR3113 is typical of anti-spam laws, and it states "... any domain name, header information, date or time stamp, originating electronic mail address, or other information identifying the initiator or the routing of such message ... is false or inaccurate. The are trying to trick your mail server into relaying for them. That's exactly the same thing the spammers do. They have no right to do so without permission. They specifically and deliberately provide incorrect information to obtain access to someone else's machine that they wouldn't otherwise have. The specific incorrect information they provide is the originator of a request for access or service. I think you'd find it hard to locate a country outside the third world where this is legal. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 6:10:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A3B37BCDD for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 06:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA32573; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:20:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:20:50 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: David Schwartz Cc: Brad Knowles , Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ORBS vs MAPS Message-ID: <20000720232048.E4376@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: David Schwartz , Brad Knowles , Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from David Schwartz on Thu, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:02:31AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 20, 2000 at 03:02:31AM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > > At 1:40 AM -0700 2000/7/20, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > So you are saying that if they are testing 'mail.foo.com', > > > they don't try > > > claiming that their mail is from 'foo@mail.foo.com'? If not, > > > they wouldn't > > > catch open relays that allow any mail with a local sender address. > > > No, that's clearly one of the things they do try, but I believe > > that they use an envelope sender address something like > > "orbs-tester@mail.foo.com", so as to give you an indication that this > > is a test. > > > They aren't trying to hide their identity, and they aren't > > forging the headers, because headers != envelope address. > > No law that I know of makes any such distinction. HR3113 is typical of > anti-spam laws, and it states "... any domain name, header information, date > or time stamp, originating electronic mail address, or other information > identifying the initiator or the routing of such message ... is false or > inaccurate. > > The are trying to trick your mail server into relaying for them. That's > exactly the same thing the spammers do. They have no right to do so without > permission. > > They specifically and deliberately provide incorrect information to obtain > access to someone else's machine that they wouldn't otherwise have. The > specific incorrect information they provide is the originator of a request > for access or service. I think you'd find it hard to locate a country > outside the third world where this is legal. And so is mail bombing. They fired a barage of tests at my poor little hard working 386 this morning, probably causing its entire resources to be devoted to those processes for some time. A DOS attack, spam attempt, _and_ attempted illegal access to a computer network? If only they knew who they're messing with, they'd wet their nappies in fear. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 6:37:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from terminal.sil.at (terminal.sil.at [194.152.178.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8D137B52B for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 06:37:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjm@terminal.sil.at) Received: from terminal.sil.at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by terminal.sil.at (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA21240; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:36:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200007201336.PAA21240@terminal.sil.at> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 01/07/2000 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: David Schwartz , Brad Knowles , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ORBS vs MAPS In-reply-to: rsidd's message of Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:03:36 +0530. <20000720140336.B3838@physics.iisc.ernet.in> X-Face: "0|_!}6Ay;=lSa@qs\q$u2RZUTyW(m(?80f[OF3eR:4uk6rd&+9lUw"6ACgq]hyak/Io Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > This is affecting more people than just those that are > > > subscribing to MAPS -- even networks that aren't subscribed to MAPS, > > > but are peers of Above.Net, are seeing these bogus routes, and in all > > > probability are propagating these bogus routes. > > > > No, Above.Net is not propogating any bogus routes. I'm looking at all the > > routes I'm getting from Above.Net right now, and the only one I see for ORB S > > is "4648 6461". 4648 is Netgate, New Zealand. This is the correct route and > > originated at ORBS' provider. Different situation here in austria on the main internet exchange.: try: http://www.vix.at/cgi-bin/lg.cgi use the ip of www.orbs.org (202.36.147.16) with BGP and then with traceroute and you'll see that above nets peering router (193.203.0.45) announces the block and in the traceroute you'll get !H !H !H's after some hops. we (5424) ignore this announcement on our borders but almost all other peering partners (50++) accept the announcement. later, cjm -- SILVER SERVER \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\ \\ \ cjm@sil.at, cjm@enemy.org, neo@bsdger.org www.sil.at --PGP-Key-ID: 0xA941452D | If I could PING you, and you could PING me, -------------------------| then we were both on the Internet - RFC1287 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 7: 9:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525B137B946 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 07:09:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (root@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.144]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26206 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA17455 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:09:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17450 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:09:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200007201409.KAA17450@rac4.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac4.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Pet Theory for World Domination Redux Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:08:56 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now see what's happening? :) http://www.zdnet.com/sp/stories/news/0,4538,2605191,00.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 10: 2:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E202837C03C for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:02:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 3976A344-182BF, Thu, 20 Jul 2000 06:59:16 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (please do not reply to this address) X-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 07:59:16 +0100 Subject: Re: Color ls Message-ID: <3976A344.182BF@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 07:59:16 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris wrote: > Okay, I'm not going to do that: either set Reply-To: in your > headers, or include your real address without funky spacing > so I can cut and paste it, at the very least. My apologies for the inconvenience, Kris. Trouble is, spammers trawl this list. There's no need to Cc: me; I read the list... Regards, -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 10:10:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mout1.silyn-tek.de (mout1.silyn-tek.de [194.25.165.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D055337C06D for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from [192.168.32.34] (helo=mx2.silyn-tek.de) by mout1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13FJq9-0002P2-00; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:10:29 +0200 Received: from p3e9c115b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.156.17.91] helo=neutron.cichlids.com) by mx2.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13FJq8-0003aW-00; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:10:28 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10F8AB91; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:12:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3AFFE14ABB; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:10:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:10:37 +0200 To: please do not reply to this address Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Color ls Message-ID: <20000720191037.A22384@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <3976A344.182BF@funbox.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3976A344.182BF@funbox.demon.co.uk>; from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk on Thu, Jul 20, 2000 at 07:59:16AM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake please do not reply to this address (dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk): > My apologies for the inconvenience, Kris. Trouble is, spammers trawl > this list. There's no need to Cc: me; I read the list... It's a common technique to Cc: the author. I like that and I _want_ that for replies to my posts, otherwise I tent to overlook them. If you dislike this, set reply-to to the list, please. Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 13:13:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DF3C37B759 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:13:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e6KKDTZ09269 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:13:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA14826 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14822 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:13:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:13:28 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Links2Go "FreeBSD" Award In-Reply-To: <200007201921.PAA13424@butane.links2go.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Redirected to -chat. On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 awards@links2go.com wrote: > are selected as "Key Resources." Out of 50 pages selected as Key > Resources for the FreeBSD topic, your page ranked 48th. For topics > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message Out of all pages about FreeBSD, the actual FreeBSD website is #48. Makes sense to me... j~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 15: 4:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D42237B565 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:04:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 026957573; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F40E01D8F; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:05:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Great c|Net Headline... In-Reply-To: <200007200001.UAA15354@rac7.wam.umd.edu> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: :"Mounting loss sends Veritas shares lower" I wonder if they even get the joke. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 15: 8:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8E1037B7F3 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:08:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04413; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA15880; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15875; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200007202208.SAA15875@rac10.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac10.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: Jamie Bowden Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Great c|Net Headline... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:05:32 PDT." Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:08:08 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message , Jamie B owden writes: > On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: > > :"Mounting loss sends Veritas shares lower" > > I wonder if they even get the joke. Speaking of getting the joke. From your headers: X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. :) j~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 18:55:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8391537B790 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:55:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 25119 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2000 01:56:03 -0000 Received: from du211020.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.211.20) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 2000 01:56:03 -0000 Message-ID: <3977AD8E.9085A1C1@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:55:26 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Howard Cc: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Great c|Net Headline... References: <200007202208.SAA15875@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard wrote: > > In message , Jamie B > owden writes: > > On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: > > > > :"Mounting loss sends Veritas shares lower" > > > > I wonder if they even get the joke. > > Speaking of getting the joke. From your headers: > > X-representing: Only myself. > X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. > X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck > X-moo: Moo. X-zen: Mu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 20 21:44:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 100C437B544 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:44:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 11370 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2000 04:44:40 -0000 Received: from du39.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.39) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 2000 04:44:40 -0000 Message-ID: <3977B0DB.5F179E19@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:09:31 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vinum References: <20000716115559.G57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20000718195708.B94391@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000719085804.S77412@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Tuesday, 18 July 2000 at 19:57:08 +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > > Thus spake Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@flood.ping.uio.no): > > > >> Greg Lehey writes: > >>> #define VINUM_MAGIC 22322600044678729LL /* should be this */ > >> "IN VINO" > >>> #define VINUM_NOMAGIC 22322600044678990LL /* becomes this after obliteration */ > >> "NO VINO" > > > > Also, where is "Veritas" referred at Vinum (never saw that)? > > It's implicit. Istud vinum, bonum vinum, vinum generosum, reddit virum curialem, probum, animosum. -- Carmina Burana (Wine, good wine in liberal amounts ennobles, purifies and revitalizes a man.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 21 5:47: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ponzi.oit.umass.edu (mailhub.oit.umass.edu [128.119.166.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6421D37B916 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 05:47:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gpav@som.umass.edu) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by ponzi.oit.umass.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38130) id <0FY100L01SUC23@ponzi.oit.umass.edu> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emily.oit.umass.edu (emily.oit.umass.edu [128.119.166.5]) by ponzi.oit.umass.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38130) with ESMTP id <0FY100K8USUCB2@ponzi.oit.umass.edu> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (gp@localhost) by emily.oit.umass.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04403 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:47:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Greg Pavelcak Subject: Laptop Hard Drives X-Sender: gp@emily.oit.umass.edu To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Authentication-warning: emily.oit.umass.edu: gp owned process doing -bs Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all. I'm looking for input on purchasing a laptop hard drive. My AST Ascentia J20 sports an 810MB ibm hard drive. I'm thinking about getting a larger drive so I don't have to worry about housecleaning so much, but I have a couple of questions. Are laptop hard drives any more proprietary than regular drives? Is a new drive likely to just work as long as I get the dimensions right? I also saw a parenthetical note next to an ad for an ibm 810 MB drive saying it's good for desktops too. Is it possible to use a laptop drive in a desktop? I looked at my laptop hard drive once before, and it seemed to me that the power supply cord was somehow incorporated into the ribbon cable. It would be great if I could just pop the new drive into my desktop and dump/restore FreeBSD to it. That would be by far the easiest way to get the configuration I've developed over the years up and running on my old laptop. Any input, pointers to reading, benefit of your experience greatly appreciated. Take care. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 21 9: 8:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.aracnet.com (mail2.aracnet.com [216.99.193.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FE737BB8F for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:08:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail2.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01242; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:08:16 -0700 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id JAA01656; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:08:12 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:08:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Greg Pavelcak Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laptop Hard Drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I also saw a parenthetical note next to an ad for an ibm 810 MB > drive saying it's good for desktops too. Is it possible to use a > laptop drive in a desktop? I looked at my laptop hard drive once > before, and it seemed to me that the power supply cord was somehow > incorporated into the ribbon cable. They make adapters for just that purpose. :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 21 9:25:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.rdc1.sfba.home.com (mail1.rdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.0.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8639C37BB99 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:25:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@sigfpe.com) Received: from c35728-a.almda1.sfba.home.com ([24.1.113.138]) by mail1.rdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20000721162550.IBQU28364.mail1.rdc1.sfba.home.com@c35728-a.almda1.sfba.home.com> for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:25:50 -0700 Received: from mobiledan.mvfx.com (mvfx-gw.mvfx.com [207.211.10.2]) by c35728-a.almda1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA38874 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:23:37 GMT (envelope-from dan@sigfpe.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mobiledan.mvfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07359 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:28:15 GMT (envelope-from dan) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:28:15 +0000 From: Dan Piponi <0x7ff0000e@sigfpe.com> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laptop Hard Drives Message-ID: <20000721092815.A5467@mobiledan.mvfx.com> Reply-To: 0x7ff0000e@sigfpe.com Mail-Followup-To: Dan Piponi <0x7ff0000e@sigfpe.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from hamellr@aracnet.com on Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 09:08:12AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE Organization: can be a good thing Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > drive saying it's good for desktops too. Is it possible to use a > > laptop drive in a desktop? I looked at my laptop hard drive once > > before, and it seemed to me that the power supply cord was somehow > > incorporated into the ribbon cable. > > They make adapters for just that purpose. :) Just received one in the mail. You get a metal bracket that brings the drive up to full size and a little pcb adapter that splits the ide connector into a full size ide connector and a normal power connector. It cost about $8.00 from buy.com. -- Dan Piponi, Head of R&D, Manex Visual Effects To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 21 9:40:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3.gte.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EDA637BD03 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:40:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop3.gte.net with ESMTP ; id LAA946205 Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:36:29 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:40:26 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: Greg Pavelcak Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laptop Hard Drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I purchased an adapter for laptop IDE to desktop IDE once. It worked well. 30$ from Fry's I think. Its nice to be able to use ghost to image the HD of a new laptop, before its booted the very first time. That way you end up with an image of the HD in its pristine state. Its also a nice way to handle problematic situations with laptops with limited support. The only limitation of the adapter, is that laptop drives are all masters. There wasn't a provision for putting two on a channel. (Things could've changed since then.) I used to use the adaptor with a parallel port enclosure. I could do all kinds of cloning tricks that way. The only limitation you may run into, is what drive size the BIOS of your laptop can handle. Thanks, [RC] On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, Greg Pavelcak wrote: > Hello all. > > I'm looking for input on purchasing a laptop hard drive. My > AST Ascentia J20 sports an 810MB ibm hard drive. I'm thinking > about getting a larger drive so I don't have to worry about > housecleaning so much, but I have a couple of questions. > > Are laptop hard drives any more proprietary than regular drives? > Is a new drive likely to just work as long as I get the > dimensions right? > > I also saw a parenthetical note next to an ad for an ibm 810 MB > drive saying it's good for desktops too. Is it possible to use a > laptop drive in a desktop? I looked at my laptop hard drive once > before, and it seemed to me that the power supply cord was somehow > incorporated into the ribbon cable. > > It would be great if I could just pop the new drive into my > desktop and dump/restore FreeBSD to it. That would be by > far the easiest way to get the configuration I've developed over > the years up and running on my old laptop. > > Any input, pointers to reading, benefit of your experience > greatly appreciated. > > Take care. > > Greg > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 21 10:16:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from coredump.lovett.com (lovett.demon.co.uk [158.152.73.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C640A37B9C6 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:16:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ade@lovett.com) Received: from ade by coredump.lovett.com with local (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13Ff4E-0001PU-00; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:50:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:50:25 -0500 From: Ade Lovett To: Troy Settle Cc: FreeBSD Chat list Subject: Re: Looking for X email client Message-ID: <20000721105025.B4844@FreeBSD.org> References: <20000717070452.B19676@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from troy@picus.com on Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 01:10:01AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 01:10:01AM -0400, Troy Settle wrote: > It's up to a 3rd preview release, not sure how long until the developers > consider it to be even of beta quality. I plan to install it as-is just > as soon as I find the time to work my way through it (There's no port, > and I've just recently installed X after nearly 5 years of working with > FreeBSD and Linux. It'll prolly take me a while :) cd /usr/ports/mail/evolution; make all install Currently at 0.2 -- I haven't heard of a 0.3 release yet, but I'm 4,500 miles from home right now and the thought of downloading another large GNOMEish tarball over this truly awful (not to mention metered) dialup link scares me. -aDe -- Ade Lovett, Austin, TX. ade@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.FreeBSD.org/ Currently somewhere in England. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 21 12:34:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1295F37B58A for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:34:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05558 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:34:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA02119 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:34:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007211934.NAA02119@harmony.village.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Off topic: FreeBSD in Albuquerque New Mexico Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:34:45 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [[ Please CC me in any replies as I'm not subscribed to chat ]] So what's the FreeBSD community in Albuquerque New Mexico like? I see there's a nmlug, but they say they have meetings monthly and the last one advertised was for May 23. Summer break? I'm also looking at the job market in ABQ and if anybody is in that market and can contact me, I'd love to ask a few questions. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 21 16: 0:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f96.hotmail.com [216.32.181.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868DE37B93C for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksk3@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:00:18 -0700 Received: from 206.251.17.16 by lw2fd.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [206.251.17.16] From: "Kevin K" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: JR Unix SysAdmin - South Bay Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:00:17 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jul 2000 23:00:18.0103 (UTC) FILETIME=[704E6470:01BFF367] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We have a postition for a JR unix sysadmin (FreeBSD). Familiarity with X, nfs, ssh, pc hardware, basic shell scripting, cvsup, and more (just can't think right now :) It's a internet company based in the south bay (Santa Clara). If you interested drop me a email at ksk3@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 22 21:22:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from emu.prod.itd.earthlink.net (emu.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4ECD37B587 for ; Sat, 22 Jul 2000 21:22:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@pool0683.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net) Received: from pool0683.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (pool0683.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.194.173]) by emu.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00292; Sat, 22 Jul 2000 21:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by pool0630.cvx20-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA01390; Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:54:29 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Alexander Langer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vinum Message-ID: <20000721205428.B342@pool0710.cvx20-bradley.dialup.e> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <8l2c48$m0a$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200007191513.RAA44083@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000720094542.A32045@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000720094542.A32045@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Thu, Jul 20, 2000 at 09:45:42AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 20, 2000 at 09:45:42AM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Oliver Fromme (olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de): > > > FWIW, here's the shell one-liner. dc is your friend. :) > > olli@dorifer:~> echo 22322600044678729P | dc | rev > > IN VINO > > Oh, that is nice. > > However, dc is an odd tool. > > Very strange. What? Not a fan of reverse-polish notation? -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message