From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 0:32:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from muzak.iinet.net.au (muzak.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D7DC37B9A4; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:32:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from jules.elischer.org (reggae-20-35.nv.iinet.net.au [203.59.85.35]) by muzak.iinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA10107; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:32:08 +0800 Message-ID: <38C21B62.2781E494@elischer.org> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 00:31:30 -0800 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hm@hcs.de Cc: Juergen Lock , kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) References: <20000305053245.84D2336AB@hcswork.hcs.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hellmuth Michaelis wrote: > > >From the keyboard of Juergen Lock: > > > And the other reason i'm looking at ijppp is ppp compression. It > > currently supports deflate (rfc1979) and predictor1 (rfc1978), which > > should at least help if the other end is running bsd or linux, > > but if your other end is something like an ascend or an external > > router (zyxel, cisco(?), there are probably more that speak this > > protocol), you'd want stac lzs (rfc1974), or if its a wintendo box > > even you'd want M$' special version of that (yes of course they > > invented their own `standard' again.) So my question is, is > > anyone working on this? There is (alpha) code that does this on > > linux, > > > > http://www.ibh-dd.de/~beck/stuff/lzs4i4l/ > > I've looked at that. Its very Linux-centric and i gave up for the moment > when i realized how much work it would be to port it. > > Brian's ppp over i4b does support deflate compression and i get very > good results out of it - too good to put more work into the above URL. > > > today... impressive stuff.) and is someone working on linking i4b > > and netgraph? > > There will be a netgraph node interface which will link an i4b B-channel > to netgraph. There are no plans from my side to netgraphify the D-channel > part of i4b. to add a negraph interface to the B channels should be quite easy. If you need help I can prbably almost do most of it.. (I did look at it already some time ago) when this is done the netgraph PPP nodes (which can support these compression types will be usable. -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Perth v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 0:49:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from verdi.nethelp.no (verdi.nethelp.no [158.36.41.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 146EA37B99E for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:49:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) Received: (qmail 57771 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Mar 2000 08:49:01 +0000 (GMT) To: kc5vdj@swbell.net, jbryant@ppp-207-193-2-159.kscymo.swbell.net Cc: mbac@nyct.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copy-on-write filesystem From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 03 Mar 2000 20:45:18 -0600 (CST)" References: <200003040245.UAA10031@ppp-207-193-2-159.kscymo.swbell.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.05+ on Emacs 19.34.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 09:49:01 +0100 Message-ID: <57769.952246141@verdi.nethelp.no> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Imagine: cp file file2, file and file2 reference the same exact blocks, > > but modified chunks of file2 would be given their own private blocks. > > This is not a microsoft innovation, actually, I believe it was a VMS > innovation. It's called a generational filesystem. the original is > stored, and later generations of the file are stored as diffs. As far as I know, VMS simply stores whole files - no diffs involved. Now if you go back to for instance Univac 1100 and the Exec-8 OS (I suppose it is OS-1100 now), you'll find a system that *did* store the diffs. In the form of punched card images! :-) Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 0:50:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hcshh.hcs.de (hcshh.hcs.de [194.123.40.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3BB4737B9AB; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:50:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hm@hcs.de) Received: from hcswork.hcs.de([192.76.124.5]) (2821 bytes) by hcshh.hcs.de via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:49:44 +0100 (CET) (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1 built 1998-Dec-11) Received: by hcswork.hcs.de (Postfix, from userid 200) id 8649A36AB; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:49:43 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) In-Reply-To: <38C21B62.2781E494@elischer.org> from Julian Elischer at "Mar 5, 0 00:31:30 am" To: julian@elischer.org (Julian Elischer) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:49:43 +0100 (MET) Cc: hm@hcs.de, nox@jelal.kn-bremen.de, kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: hm@hcs.de Organization: HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1720 Message-Id: <20000305084943.8649A36AB@hcswork.hcs.de> From: hm@hcs.de (Hellmuth Michaelis) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From the keyboard of Julian Elischer: > > > today... impressive stuff.) and is someone working on linking i4b > > > and netgraph? > > > > There will be a netgraph node interface which will link an i4b B-channel > > to netgraph. There are no plans from my side to netgraphify the D-channel > > part of i4b. > > to add a negraph interface to the B channels should be quite easy. > If you need help I can prbably almost do most of it.. Its already in the development sources (Archie had a look at it already) and it works with mppd. It was really quite easy, although if Archies daemonnews article had been available at that time i wrote it, it would have been even easier :-) > when this is done the netgraph PPP nodes (which can support > these compression types will be usable. In the mppd i worked with (looking ... mpd3.0b1/mpd3.0b2) deflate was not present, predictor was not usable, bsd was not present. There were just hooks for M$ and stac (which you can not release obviously). Currently i'm using ppp instead of mppd mostly just because it supports deflate compression. I had a look at both mppd and ppp to see how the mentioned free stac compression would be integrateable and found them both similar, given they both come from iijppp. It looks like if it were a good idea if Brian and Archie would merge both to get the best features from each one into a common product ;-) hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis Tel +49 40 55 97 47-70 HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH Fax +49 40 55 97 47-77 Oldesloer Strasse 97-99 Mail hm [at] hcs.de D-22457 Hamburg WWW http://www.hcs.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 0:52:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.dk (freebsd.dk [212.242.42.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F190737B99E for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:52:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sos@freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA94595; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:51:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sos) From: Soren Schmidt Message-Id: <200003050851.JAA94595@freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: Onstream? In-Reply-To: <200003050122.SAA39251@harmony.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Mar 4, 2000 06:22:09 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:51:58 +0100 (CET) Cc: mjacob@feral.com, batie@rdrop.com (Alan Batie), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems Warner Losh wrote: > In message Matthew Jacob writes: > : I gave up on supporting it- too much work for too little gain, IMO. > > The same thing happened on the IDE side of things. Even with Soren's > hacks, I never could get it to work well. It worked as well as one > would expect a win-tape drive to work :-<. > > I have one of these beasts if someone wants it. I got it from the > onstream folks (they have an office here in Longmont). I tried to > help Soren out, but my tolerence for working in the project was > extremely low. That drive is a joke, I'd never recommend it for data you care for.. However I still have it on my TODO list, it just keeps getting pushed further and further down on it... The ATAPI version is somewhat supported, ie you can access it, but there are no filemarks (the drive doesn't support that) and there is no handling of media errors (the drive doesn't support that either). Other than that it can be used :) -Sĝren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 3:34:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from awfulhak.org (tun.AwfulHak.org [194.242.139.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A0437B9C3; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 03:34:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.awfulhak.org [172.16.0.12]) by awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01436; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:32:51 GMT (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04613; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:32:47 GMT (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <200003051132.LAA04613@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: hm@hcs.de Cc: julian@elischer.org (Julian Elischer), nox@jelal.kn-bremen.de, kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, brian@hak.lan.awfulhak.org Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) In-Reply-To: Message from hm@hcs.de (Hellmuth Michaelis) of "Sun, 05 Mar 2000 09:49:43 +0100." <20000305084943.8649A36AB@hcswork.hcs.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 11:32:47 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [.....] > Currently i'm using ppp instead of mppd mostly just because it supports > deflate compression. I had a look at both mppd and ppp to see how the > mentioned free stac compression would be integrateable and found them > both similar, given they both come from iijppp. It looks like if it were > a good idea if Brian and Archie would merge both to get the best features > from each one into a common product ;-) The reason we haven't done this yet is my fault. I've been too busy with other things :-/ I hope this'll change soon. > hellmuth > -- > Hellmuth Michaelis Tel +49 40 55 97 47-70 > HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH Fax +49 40 55 97 47-77 > Oldesloer Strasse 97-99 Mail hm [at] hcs.de > D-22457 Hamburg WWW http://www.hcs.de -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 5:40:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B2F37BA00 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 05:40:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id OAA22600 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 14:40:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA85584 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:19:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Onstream? Date: 5 Mar 2000 13:19:10 +0100 Message-ID: <89tjbu$2ji2$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000304160333.28186@rdrop.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alan Batie wrote: > I just got an onstream scsi tape drive only to discover that I should've > checked the archives because it don't work. Depends on the drive. If you got an Echo drive (SCxx), you're right. The ADR drives--yes, they all use ADR tape technology, but confusingly there's also a model line called "ADR"--on the other hand, are ordinary SCSI drives, according to the OnStream representative I talked to at CeBIT. For instance, they're certified to work with the plain Linux SCSI tape driver. A few days ago I asked whether anybody's running an ADR50 successfully off a FreeBSD box but received no response. Actually I'm not sure the ADR50 is in the stores yet. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 6: 6:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3585037BA0C for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 06:06:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17903; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:05:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Message-Id: <200003051405.JAA17903@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: sthaug@nethelp.no Cc: kc5vdj@swbell.net, jbryant@ppp-207-193-2-159.kscymo.swbell.net, mbac@nyct.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Image-URL: http://www.transsys.com/louie/images/louie-mail.jpg From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: Copy-on-write filesystem References: <200003040245.UAA10031@ppp-207-193-2-159.kscymo.swbell.net> <57769.952246141@verdi.nethelp.no> In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 05 Mar 2000 09:49:01 +0100." <57769.952246141@verdi.nethelp.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 09:05:29 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Imagine: cp file file2, file and file2 reference the same exact blocks, > > > but modified chunks of file2 would be given their own private blocks. > > > > This is not a microsoft innovation, actually, I believe it was a VMS > > innovation. It's called a generational filesystem. the original is > > stored, and later generations of the file are stored as diffs. > > As far as I know, VMS simply stores whole files - no diffs involved. Now > if you go back to for instance Univac 1100 and the Exec-8 OS (I suppose > it is OS-1100 now), you'll find a system that *did* store the diffs. In > the form of punched card images! :-) Well, not really. That was mostly an application convention rather than being done in the OS. And that all the applications wanted to use SIR$ SDF to read program file elements was just a coincidence :-) The cools part of Exec-8 that we still need (we already have sparse files) are the virtual filesystem bits. E.g., unloaded files. People have been struggling with multi-level storage architectures on UNIX for years, while this was pretty much a solved problem on these 1's complement 36 bit dinosars 30 years ago. (The notion was that if you didn't use a file in a while, the system would release the data blocks, and mark the file as "unloaded." When you "assigned"/opened one of these files, a system process would cause the current backup tape to be loaded, and the file restore. When you began to get low on disk space, likeway a systen process would start, and sort all files based on their priority for being unloaded - based on last reference time, do we have a current backup, who created it, etc. It would then begin to release the data blocks until you acheived a configured threshold.) louie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 9:31:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fb01.eng00.mindspring.net (fb01.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.229.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E9037B54F for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:31:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by fb01.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA32009 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtklq.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.210.186]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03068 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA00712 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:35:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-Reply-To: <57223.952177003@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> References: <57223.952177003@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000305093539F.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 09:35:39 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 18 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > bash and ksh complain about unexpected ';'. > > /bin/sh (FreeBSD) thinks it's ok and does nothing. > > Which behaviour is more POSIXly correct? > > Neither bash nor ksh claim to be particularly POSIX compliant. our > /bin/sh does. I seem to remember POSIX being ambiguous on this one, but > my books are at the office. If you haven't gotten a more conclusive > answer by Monday, mail me and I'll look it up. I much prefer the current behavior and believe there may be many things which depend on it. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 10:14:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (blaubaer.kn-bremen.de [195.37.179.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C3F37B564; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 10:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nox@saturn.kn-bremen.de) Received: from saturn.kn-bremen.de (uucp@localhost) by blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with UUCP id TAA06302; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 19:08:34 +0100 Received: (from nox@localhost) by saturn.kn-bremen.de (8.9.3/8.8.5) id SAA22834; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:55:49 +0100 (CET) From: Juergen Lock Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:55:49 +0100 To: Hellmuth Michaelis Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) Message-ID: <20000305185548.A16881@saturn.kn-bremen.de> References: <200003042243.XAA82879@saturn.kn-bremen.de> <20000305053245.84D2336AB@hcswork.hcs.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <20000305053245.84D2336AB@hcswork.hcs.de> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 06:32:45AM +0100, Hellmuth Michaelis wrote: > >From the keyboard of Juergen Lock: > > > And the other reason i'm looking at ijppp is ppp compression. It > > currently supports deflate (rfc1979) and predictor1 (rfc1978), which > > should at least help if the other end is running bsd or linux, > > but if your other end is something like an ascend or an external > > router (zyxel, cisco(?), there are probably more that speak this > > protocol), you'd want stac lzs (rfc1974), or if its a wintendo box > > even you'd want M$' special version of that (yes of course they > > invented their own `standard' again.) So my question is, is > > anyone working on this? There is (alpha) code that does this on > > linux, > > > > http://www.ibh-dd.de/~beck/stuff/lzs4i4l/ > > I've looked at that. Its very Linux-centric and i gave up for the moment > when i realized how much work it would be to port it. > > Brian's ppp over i4b does support deflate compression and i get very > good results out of it - too good to put more work into the above URL. > I don't see anything wrong with deflate itself either, its just that when you don't have control over whats at the other end of the link its most of the time useless, most equipment thats out there _if_ it does compression at all still only knows the other protocols. :( > > that seems to be the logical way to do more complex > > stuff like this aodi thing that e.g. the german Telekom wants to use > > for their low-bandwidth 10 DEM/month isdn `flatrate' which they plan to > > introduce around the end of the year. (and _if_ this really works it > > sure will become pretty popular over here as long as all the other `real' > > flatrates are still in the 100 DEM or more range... :/ ) this seems to > > be the current draft: > > - this "flatrate" will only be available to T-Online customers. Since i'm > not such a beast and will probably never become one its of not much use > for me. > well for someone who _could_ use it the 8 DEM more (is it still 8?) for the t-offline account may still be worth it, and i don't think they would even be allowed to force you to do _all_ your ip over their system... (yes that may need some routing tweaks but so be it. :) at least the proposed aodi protocol shouldn't be in the way and i've already had two connections open with i4b at the same time over a single card and it worked as expected. the only problem would be you couldn't dynamically up the bandwith of connections that are already open over the slow link without routing that additional B channel over t-offline too. well unless you start playing with tunnels...) > - my usage of the internet is not much compatible with what this "flatrate" > offers. > hmm imho there's a lot of things a low-bandwidth link can be useful for when all your other links are still metered... :/ think of always getting mail delivered near-immediately at no extra cost as soon as the box is up, or that you'd no longer have to close and re-open things like ssh sessions all the time, or that you could just talk(1) to someone instead of having to pay for a phonecall... (in case anyone wonders: yes those are also still _always_ metered here) and that even while both B channels may be busy with other things. Oh and you could then also get at the box from `anywhere' if you need to, whithout having to make (and pay for) a direct isdn connection or other special precautions cause you'd no longer have to worry about portscanning/flood-pinging script kiddies or other kinds of `accidents' causing insane phone bills when you leave the box online while you can't watch it. (well, assuming you made a decent firewall.) (of course when i look at _my_ usage of the net a 100 DEM 64kbit flatrate will probably still be more economical (*sigh*), but i suspect there are lots of people where this wouldn't be so.) > - the Telecom does not give away anything for free. Check when, why and > most important how you are using the internet: the savings you get using > this "flatrate" does not pay even a fraction of the time and work needed > to implement this - in my eyes. > Well yes someone would have to do the work and it probably won't exactly make him rich either, thats true. :) (but it could make bsd more popular if it gets this before linux...) Regards, -- Juergen Lock (remove dot foo from address to reply) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 10:14:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (blaubaer.kn-bremen.de [195.37.179.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B59537BAAB; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 10:14:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nox@saturn.kn-bremen.de) Received: from saturn.kn-bremen.de (uucp@localhost) by blaubaer.kn-bremen.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with UUCP id TAA06299; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 19:08:33 +0100 Received: (from nox@localhost) by saturn.kn-bremen.de (8.9.3/8.8.5) id TAA23090; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 19:02:15 +0100 (CET) From: Juergen Lock Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 19:02:15 +0100 To: Julian Elischer Cc: hm@hcs.de, kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) Message-ID: <20000305190214.B16881@saturn.kn-bremen.de> References: <20000305053245.84D2336AB@hcswork.hcs.de> <38C21B62.2781E494@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <38C21B62.2781E494@elischer.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 12:31:30AM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > Hellmuth Michaelis wrote: > > > > >From the keyboard of Juergen Lock: > > > > > And the other reason i'm looking at ijppp is ppp compression. It > > > currently supports deflate (rfc1979) and predictor1 (rfc1978), which > > > should at least help if the other end is running bsd or linux, > > > but if your other end is something like an ascend or an external > > > router (zyxel, cisco(?), there are probably more that speak this > > > protocol), you'd want stac lzs (rfc1974), or if its a wintendo box > > > even you'd want M$' special version of that (yes of course they > > > invented their own `standard' again.) So my question is, is > > > anyone working on this? There is (alpha) code that does this on > > > linux, > > > > > > http://www.ibh-dd.de/~beck/stuff/lzs4i4l/ > > > > I've looked at that. Its very Linux-centric and i gave up for the moment > > when i realized how much work it would be to port it. > > > > Brian's ppp over i4b does support deflate compression and i get very > > good results out of it - too good to put more work into the above URL. > > > > > today... impressive stuff.) and is someone working on linking i4b > > > and netgraph? > > > > There will be a netgraph node interface which will link an i4b B-channel > > to netgraph. There are no plans from my side to netgraphify the D-channel > > part of i4b. > > to add a negraph interface to the B channels should be quite easy. > If you need help I can prbably almost do most of it.. > > (I did look at it already some time ago) > > when this is done the netgraph PPP nodes (which can support > these compression types will be usable. They could, but they don't yet, right? :) Maybe it still should be added to ijppp first cause debugging user processes is easier than the kernel... and at the usual isdn bri speeds a user process should still be pretty fast enough. Regards, -- Juergen Lock (remove dot foo from address to reply) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 11:39:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 903B637BAF4 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:39:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04338; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:39:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 11:39:49 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0302 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for References: <57223.952177003@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000305093539F.jhix@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > > bash and ksh complain about unexpected ';'. > > > /bin/sh (FreeBSD) thinks it's ok and does nothing. > > > Which behaviour is more POSIXly correct? > > > > > Neither bash nor ksh claim to be particularly POSIX compliant. our > > /bin/sh does. I seem to remember POSIX being ambiguous on this one, but > > my books are at the office. If you haven't gotten a more conclusive > > answer by Monday, mail me and I'll look it up. > > I much prefer the current behavior and believe there may be many things > which depend on it. Given that Bash in both standard and POSIX mode complains about 'for i in ; do echo $i; done', I would say that it's not POSIX compatible. What could/does depend on this behavior "working?" Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 12:50:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu (bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu [128.226.1.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4678A37B6CE for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:50:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu) Received: from sol.cs.binghamton.edu (sol.cs.binghamton.edu [128.226.123.100]) by bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA03176 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 15:50:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:26:22 -0500 (EST) From: Zhihui Zhang To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Removing zombie kernel threads Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have created several kernel threads that can die after being idle for a while. I did this by copying the kthread_create() funtion from CURRENT over to FreeBSD 3.3-Release. Is there a way to remove the zombie threads after they die or prevent them from creating? Any potential problems in trying to do this? Any help is appreciated. -Zhihui To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 13:45:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FCF937BB0A for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:45:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05885; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:45:17 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:45:17 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Onstream? In-Reply-To: <89tjbu$2ji2$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You see- this why I dropped the notion of supporting the earlier unit- if there's one with a real SCSI i/f, why bother? I mean, yes, it'll cost more, but my take on that is "Don't get cheap on your backups". On 5 Mar 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Alan Batie wrote: > > > I just got an onstream scsi tape drive only to discover that I should've > > checked the archives because it don't work. > > Depends on the drive. If you got an Echo drive (SCxx), you're right. > The ADR drives--yes, they all use ADR tape technology, but confusingly > there's also a model line called "ADR"--on the other hand, are > ordinary SCSI drives, according to the OnStream representative I > talked to at CeBIT. For instance, they're certified to work with > the plain Linux SCSI tape driver. > > A few days ago I asked whether anybody's running an ADR50 successfully > off a FreeBSD box but received no response. Actually I'm not sure > the ADR50 is in the stores yet. > > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 20:11:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from cs.rpi.edu (mumble.cs.rpi.edu [128.213.8.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A7E37BC00 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crossd@cs.rpi.edu) Received: from cs.rpi.edu (monica.cs.rpi.edu [128.213.7.2]) by cs.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23516; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:11:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200003060411.XAA23516@cs.rpi.edu> To: dillon@backplane.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, crossd@cs.rpi.edu Subject: vmpfw, again... Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 23:11:03 -0500 From: "David E. Cross" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have 2 cores from machines in the aforementioned state. What should I do? For those not playing at home, it appears there is some sort of deadlock situation in the NFS or VM system. The indication of this is a process that blocks in 'vmpfw' for no apparent reason. All other transactions to that same filesystem continue per normal. A specific interaction to that same file will block. For example say that 'emacs' has entered the 'vmpfw' state, other transactions to the same FS will continue unimpeded, but 'cat emacs >/dev/null' will also enter eternal disk-wait without ever any kernel messages. -- David Cross | email: crossd@cs.rpi.edu Acting Lab Director | NYSLP: FREEBSD Systems Administrator/Research Programmer | Web: http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~crossd Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, | Ph: 518.276.2860 Department of Computer Science | Fax: 518.276.4033 I speak only for myself. | WinNT:Linux::Linux:FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 20:26:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from wall.polstra.com (rtrwan160.accessone.com [206.213.115.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449EF37BC30 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:26:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: from vashon.polstra.com (vashon.polstra.com [206.213.73.13]) by wall.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA27572; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:26:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) From: John Polstra Received: (from jdp@localhost) by vashon.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA85867; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:26:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:26:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003060426.UAA85867@vashon.polstra.com> To: fenner@research.att.com Subject: Re: Keeping using locally modified source In-Reply-To: <200003042205.OAA13663@windsor.research.att.com> References: <200003030059.TAA29567@rac4.wam.umd.edu> <5laekg8h44.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <200003031102.DAA09390@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com> <200003042205.OAA13663@windsor.research.att.com> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <200003042205.OAA13663@windsor.research.att.com>, Bill Fenner wrote: > > I've got this program in my head that takes a CVS tree and turns it > into a branch ofanother CVS tree (e.g. FreeBSD rev 1.7 turns into > rev 1.1.1.7) but it's never managed to make it out of my head, so > it must be harder than I keep thinking it is =) I've had the same idea for CVSup for quite awhile but haven't gotten around to implementing it. It would be a new "import mode" where the updates you fetched were "imported" onto the vendor branch of your local repository. It would be great for maintaining local modifications. I've been thinking about it for a long time and haven't found a reason yet why it wouldn't work. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 20:30:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from wall.polstra.com (rtrwan160.accessone.com [206.213.115.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C8A37BC32 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:30:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: from vashon.polstra.com (vashon.polstra.com [206.213.73.13]) by wall.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA27587; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:30:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) From: John Polstra Received: (from jdp@localhost) by vashon.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA85900; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:30:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:30:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003060430.UAA85900@vashon.polstra.com> To: Doug@gorean.org Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-Reply-To: <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org> References: <57223.952177003@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000305093539F.jhix@mindspring.com> <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org>, Doug Barton wrote: > > Given that Bash in both standard and POSIX mode complains about 'for i > in ; do echo $i; done', I would say that it's not POSIX compatible. What > could/does depend on this behavior "working?" It works for the realistic cases that might actually be useful. E.g.,: x= for i in $x; do echo $i done works fine. I don't think it matters very much that the pathological case "for i in ; ..." doesn't work. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 20:37:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A98237BBE7 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:37:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06638; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:37:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38C335F4.8A9C2499@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 20:37:08 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0302 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Polstra Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: empty lists in for References: <57223.952177003@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000305093539F.jhix@mindspring.com> <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org> <200003060430.UAA85900@vashon.polstra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Polstra wrote: > > In article <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org>, > Doug Barton wrote: > > > > Given that Bash in both standard and POSIX mode complains about 'for i > > in ; do echo $i; done', I would say that it's not POSIX compatible. What > > could/does depend on this behavior "working?" > > It works for the realistic cases that might actually be useful. E.g.,: > > x= > for i in $x; do > echo $i > done > > works fine. I don't think it matters very much that the pathological > case "for i in ; ..." doesn't work. Agreed on all counts. By "this behavior" I was referring to the example. Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 20:37:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (fb02.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.229.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DEB137BBE7 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:37:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA12359; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtgqb.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.195.75]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA32325; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA57965; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:41:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: Doug@gorean.org Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-Reply-To: <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org> References: <57223.952177003@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000305093539F.jhix@mindspring.com> <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000305204115E.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 20:41:15 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 41 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: Doug Barton Subject: Re: empty lists in for Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 11:39:49 -0800 > W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > > > > bash and ksh complain about unexpected ';'. > > > > /bin/sh (FreeBSD) thinks it's ok and does nothing. > > > > Which behaviour is more POSIXly correct? > > > > > > > > Neither bash nor ksh claim to be particularly POSIX compliant. our > > > /bin/sh does. I seem to remember POSIX being ambiguous on this one, but > > > my books are at the office. If you haven't gotten a more conclusive > > > answer by Monday, mail me and I'll look it up. > > > > I much prefer the current behavior and believe there may be many things > > which depend on it. > > Given that Bash in both standard and POSIX mode complains about 'for i > in ; do echo $i; done', I would say that it's not POSIX compatible. What > could/does depend on this behavior "working?" > Even though it's my preferred shell, I certainly wouldn't say that Bash is any sort of standard, certainly not in the POSIX sense. Imagine processing a possibly empty list constructed from a 'make' expansion... Without this behavior one would have to code a guard of some sort around the 'for' construct. If everything is checked through make release, I would hold little objection to a change *after* 4.0-RELEASE. That includes all conditional paths through make release ... -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 20:38:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from wall.polstra.com (rtrwan160.accessone.com [206.213.115.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4F337B847 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: from vashon.polstra.com (vashon.polstra.com [206.213.73.13]) by wall.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA27615; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:38:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: (from jdp@localhost) by vashon.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA85913; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:38:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38C335F4.8A9C2499@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 20:38:25 -0800 (PST) Organization: Polstra & Co., Inc. From: John Polstra To: Doug Barton Subject: Re: empty lists in for Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton wrote: > > Agreed on all counts. By "this behavior" I was referring to the > example. Yep -- I was agreeing with you. :-) John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 20:54:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4188A37BC2C for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:54:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07348; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:54:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38C33A03.A55DEFAF@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 20:54:27 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0302 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for References: <57223.952177003@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000305093539F.jhix@mindspring.com> <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org> <20000305204115E.jhix@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG W Gerald Hicks wrote: > Even though it's my preferred shell, I certainly wouldn't say > that Bash is any sort of standard, certainly not in the POSIX > sense. Well, one of Chet's stated goals is to be as POSIX as possible. I agree that letting the standard speak for itself is a better idea, I was just giving a perspective. > Imagine processing a possibly empty list constructed from a > 'make' expansion... Without this behavior one would have to > code a guard of some sort around the 'for' construct. John Polstra already pointed this out, and Bash handles this like you would expect. There is a difference between expanding an empty list and trying to expand a list that isn't there. Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 21:18: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (fb02.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.229.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0CB37BC44 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 21:18:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00423; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:17:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtgqb.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.195.75]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01448; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA58073; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 21:21:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: Doug@gorean.org Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-Reply-To: <38C33A03.A55DEFAF@gorean.org> References: <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org> <20000305204115E.jhix@mindspring.com> <38C33A03.A55DEFAF@gorean.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000305212148X.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 21:21:48 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 35 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: Doug Barton > John Polstra already pointed this out, and Bash handles this like you > would expect. There is a difference between expanding an empty list and > trying to expand a list that isn't there. Convince me that nothing like the following exists in the ports framework and /usr/src and I'd be ok with a change *after* 4.0 release (repeats himself) # Makefile.foo FOOVAR= . . . BARVAR=${FOOVAR} baz: for i in ${BARVAR} ; do \ ${BLAP} $$i ; \ done To me, changing it right now on the eve of -release would be gratuitous. Later I would be fine with it. I still prefer /bin/sh being able to handle an empty literal list but would yield to the desires of others. -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 21:33:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0505137B847 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 21:33:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA07485; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 21:33:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38C3431D.DDA29E2@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 21:33:17 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0302 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for References: <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org> <20000305204115E.jhix@mindspring.com> <38C33A03.A55DEFAF@gorean.org> <20000305212148X.jhix@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG W Gerald Hicks wrote: > To me, changing it right now on the eve of -release > would be gratuitous. Later I would be fine with it. > > I still prefer /bin/sh being able to handle an empty > literal list but would yield to the desires of others. I think you misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting any changes, unless the fact that our /bin/sh DOES handle the non-existent list case breaks something. My feeling in general is that the more POSIX compliant we are the better, but I don't really know what the standard says about this. Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 21:46:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from holly.calldei.com (adsl-208-191-146-189.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.146.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD18537BC05 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 21:46:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA05663; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:42:11 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from chris) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:42:11 -0600 From: Chris Costello To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: Max Khon , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for Message-ID: <20000305234210.A4990@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <57223.952177003@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i In-Reply-To: <57223.952177003@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> X-URL: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~chris/ Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, March 04, 2000, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > Neither bash nor ksh claim to be particularly POSIX compliant. our > /bin/sh does. ksh doesn't claim to be POSIX compliant? "ksh is intended to conform to the Shell Language Standard developed by the IEEE POSIX 1003.2 Shell and Utilities Language Committee." -- http://www.kornshell.com/info/ And on a FreeBSD-compiled binary of the real AT&T ksh code: $ echo ${.sh.version} Version M 1993-12-28 i $ for i in ; do echo $i; done $ -- |Chris Costello |Breakthrough: It nearly booted on the first try. `------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Mar 5 23:41:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (T1-Hansenet.BIK-GmbH.de [192.76.134.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8890237BC9E for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:41:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.9.3/8.7.3) id IAA36573; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:40:31 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:40:31 +0100 From: Martin Cracauer To: John Polstra Cc: Doug@gorean.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru Subject: Re: empty lists in for Message-ID: <20000306084031.A35426@cons.org> References: <57223.952177003@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000305093539F.jhix@mindspring.com> <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org> <200003060430.UAA85900@vashon.polstra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200003060430.UAA85900@vashon.polstra.com>; from jdp@polstra.com on Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 08:30:18PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In <200003060430.UAA85900@vashon.polstra.com>, John Polstra wrote: > In article <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org>, > Doug Barton wrote: > > > > Given that Bash in both standard and POSIX mode complains about 'for i > > in ; do echo $i; done', I would say that it's not POSIX compatible. What > > could/does depend on this behavior "working?" > > It works for the realistic cases that might actually be useful. E.g.,: > > x= > for i in $x; do > echo $i > done > > works fine. I don't think it matters very much that the pathological > case "for i in ; ..." doesn't work. I just checked POSIX 1003.2. for name [ in word ] do compound-list done "First, the list of words following 'in' shall be expanded to generate a list of items." [...] "If no items result from the expansion, the compound-list shall not be executed." is not a word at all, so it can't be expanded, so I think bash is corrent to complain about a syntax error. It is clear, though, that your (John) example "variable expansion to nothing" is not an error and both shells do it right. To the original poster, it would have been useful to submit this as a bug report or at least choose a subject line that indicates that you're talking about the shell. I recognized the thread only when my name was written and missed the beginning. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 0:20:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iclub.nsu.ru (iclub.nsu.ru [193.124.222.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 540BE37BC2C for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:20:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru) Received: from localhost (fjoe@localhost) by iclub.nsu.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA96205; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:09:16 +0600 (NS) (envelope-from fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:09:16 +0600 (NS) From: Max Khon To: Martin Cracauer Cc: John Polstra , Doug@gorean.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for (/bin/sh) In-Reply-To: <20000306084031.A35426@cons.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hi, there! On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Martin Cracauer wrote: > I just checked POSIX 1003.2. > > for name [ in word ] > do > compound-list > done > > "First, the list of words following 'in' shall be expanded to generate > a list of items." [...] "If no items result from the expansion, the > compound-list shall not be executed." > > is not a word at all, so it can't be expanded, so I think > bash is corrent to complain about a syntax error. > > It is clear, though, that your (John) example "variable expansion to > nothing" is not an error and both shells do it right. A lot of stuff in /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.port.mk depends on current /bin/sh behaviour ("do nothing" instead of "complain and bail out"). I am the original poster and faced this problem when tried to port FreeBSD Ports subsystem to Solaris and Linux. /fjoe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 0:24:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from knight.cons.org (knight.cons.org [194.233.237.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3F937BCA3 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:24:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@knight.cons.org) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by knight.cons.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA14758; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:23:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:23:22 +0100 From: Martin Cracauer To: Max Khon Cc: Martin Cracauer , John Polstra , Doug@gorean.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for (/bin/sh) Message-ID: <20000306092322.A14710@cons.org> References: <20000306084031.A35426@cons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru on Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 02:09:16PM +0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In , Max Khon wrote: > hi, there! > > On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Martin Cracauer wrote: > > > I just checked POSIX 1003.2. > > > > for name [ in word ] > > do > > compound-list > > done > > > > "First, the list of words following 'in' shall be expanded to generate > > a list of items." [...] "If no items result from the expansion, the > > compound-list shall not be executed." > > > > is not a word at all, so it can't be expanded, so I think > > bash is corrent to complain about a syntax error. > > > > It is clear, though, that your (John) example "variable expansion to > > nothing" is not an error and both shells do it right. > > A lot of stuff in /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.port.mk depends on current /bin/sh > behaviour ("do nothing" instead of "complain and bail out"). > I am the original poster and faced this problem when tried to port FreeBSD > Ports subsystem to Solaris and Linux. Hm, for s in ${SUBDIR}; do Well, the trick here is that ${SUBDIR} is expanded by make, not sh, so sh can end up with nothing. Max, I apologize, your point is valid and I commented without seeing your original message. OK, I think we should leave the non-word syntax as valid in FreeBSD, since it makes the ports case more elegant and POSIX make it that clear that sh must raise an error. Max, I think the best way to port the ports subsystem is to take FreeBSD's sh with you and point ${SH} to it, not the system's native sh. Many native sh's have other things they do different from FreeBSD's sh and bash (i.e. reaction on SIGINT, see http://www.cons.org/cracauer/sigint.html), so I think this will shorten your path considerably. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ Tel.: (private) +4940 5221829 Fax.: (private) +4940 5228536 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 0:29:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iclub.nsu.ru (iclub.nsu.ru [193.124.222.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D2C237BCA7 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:28:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru) Received: from localhost (fjoe@localhost) by iclub.nsu.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA96774; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:25:16 +0600 (NS) (envelope-from fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:25:16 +0600 (NS) From: Max Khon To: Chris Costello Cc: Sheldon Hearn , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-Reply-To: <20000305234210.A4990@holly.calldei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hi, there! On Sun, 5 Mar 2000, Chris Costello wrote: > ksh doesn't claim to be POSIX compliant? > > "ksh is intended to conform to the Shell Language Standard > developed by the IEEE POSIX 1003.2 Shell and Utilities Language > Committee." > -- http://www.kornshell.com/info/ > > And on a FreeBSD-compiled binary of the real AT&T ksh code: > > $ echo ${.sh.version} > Version M 1993-12-28 i > $ for i in ; do echo $i; done > $ However, under Solaris 2.6: clone$uname -a SunOS clone 5.6 Generic_105181-13 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1-Engine clone$/bin/ksh clone$for i in ; do echo $i; done /bin/ksh: syntax error: `;' unexpected clone$ /fjoe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 0:44: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CAB37BCB1 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:43:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12Rt4d-0008gg-00; Mon, 06 Mar 2000 10:41:07 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Max Khon , Doug Barton Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Mar 2000 15:36:43 +0200." <57223.952177003@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 10:41:07 +0200 Message-ID: <33397.952332067@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 04 Mar 2000 15:36:43 +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > I seem to remember POSIX being ambiguous on this one, but my books > are at the office. If you haven't gotten a more conclusive answer by > Monday, mail me and I'll look it up. I was wrong about POSIX being ambiguous in this regard; it's SUSV2 which is ambiguous. From POSIX.2 3.9.4.2: First, the list of words following _in_ shall be expanded to generate a list of items. Then, the variable shall be set to each item, in turn, and the executed each time. If no items result from the expansion, the shall not be executed. [...] Exit Status: The exit status of a _for_ command shall be the exit status of the last command that executes. If there are no items, the exit status shall be zero. > Neither bash nor ksh claim to be particularly POSIX compliant. our > /bin/sh does. This is the part of my original post that Doug barton objected to. Perhaps bash has POSIX compliance as one of its goals, which invalidates my original statement. On this score, however, both bash and ksh are not compliant. Once again, our shell comes out tops. :-) Ciao, Sheldong. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 1: 1:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2915737BCE1 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:01:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10711; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:59:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38C3737B.63ACC551@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 00:59:39 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0302 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: Max Khon , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for References: <33397.952332067@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > On Sat, 04 Mar 2000 15:36:43 +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > > I seem to remember POSIX being ambiguous on this one, but my books > > are at the office. If you haven't gotten a more conclusive answer by > > Monday, mail me and I'll look it up. > > I was wrong about POSIX being ambiguous in this regard; it's SUSV2 which > is ambiguous. From POSIX.2 3.9.4.2: > > First, the list of words following _in_ shall be expanded to > generate a list of items. Then, the variable shall be > set to each item, in turn, and the executed each > time. If no items result from the expansion, the > shall not be executed. [...] > > Exit Status: The exit status of a _for_ command shall be the > exit status of the last command that executes. If there are no > items, the exit status shall be zero. > > > Neither bash nor ksh claim to be particularly POSIX compliant. our > > /bin/sh does. > > This is the part of my original post that Doug barton objected to. > Perhaps bash has POSIX compliance as one of its goals, which invalidates > my original statement. On this score, however, both bash and ksh are > not compliant. I think that Martin's post contained the informative bit: I just checked POSIX 1003.2. for name [ in word ] do compound-list done the "in word" is optional. Therefore: for name in ; do echo $name; done is an error, whereas for name ; do echo $name; done is not, and Bash does not report it as so, in or out of POSIX mode. Also, your snippet clearly expects that there will be a word after "in." It could easily be argued from that context that the presence of "in" without a "word" to go with it is an error, even without the bit from Martin's post. All that said, if the ports make system depends on the current behavior, it has to be fixed before we can contemplate any changes. Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 1:16:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B3F937BCDD for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:16:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12Rtbf-00094k-00; Mon, 06 Mar 2000 11:15:15 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Doug Barton Cc: Max Khon , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Mar 2000 00:59:39 PST." <38C3737B.63ACC551@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 11:15:14 +0200 Message-ID: <34889.952334114@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 00:59:39 PST, Doug Barton wrote: > for name [ in word ] > do > compound-list > done > > the "in word" is optional. Therefore: Hmmm, you're right. I must admit, though, that if the text is confusing enough to confuse me, it's not entirely clear (even if I'm not the hardest person in the world to confuse)! :-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 1:33:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8317137BCCA for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:33:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA53235; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 02:33:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id CAA57921; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 02:32:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200003060932.CAA57921@harmony.village.org> To: Sheldon Hearn Subject: Re: empty lists in for Cc: Doug Barton , Max Khon , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Mar 2000 11:15:14 +0200." <34889.952334114@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> References: <34889.952334114@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 02:32:57 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <34889.952334114@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sheldon Hearn writes: : On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 00:59:39 PST, Doug Barton wrote: : : > for name [ in word ] : > do : > compound-list : > done : > : > the "in word" is optional. Therefore: : : Hmmm, you're right. : : I must admit, though, that if the text is confusing enough to confuse : me, it's not entirely clear (even if I'm not the hardest person in the : world to confuse)! Are you sure that "word" here means one or more tokens, or zero or more tokens. If it means zero or more tokens, then 'for i in ; do ' is perfectly legal. You're not quoting what word means. The reason that I ask this is that I can't see why for i in ; do would be any different than for i in $foo; do when foo is empty. They are the same thing from at last my world view of the shell. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 1:46:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3345937BCED for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:46:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA11287; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:44:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38C37E03.A49AD802@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 01:44:35 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0302 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Sheldon Hearn , Max Khon , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for References: <34889.952334114@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <200003060932.CAA57921@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <34889.952334114@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sheldon Hearn writes: > : On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 00:59:39 PST, Doug Barton wrote: > : > : > for name [ in word ] > : > do > : > compound-list > : > done > : > > : > the "in word" is optional. Therefore: > : > : Hmmm, you're right. > : > : I must admit, though, that if the text is confusing enough to confuse > : me, it's not entirely clear (even if I'm not the hardest person in the > : world to confuse)! > > Are you sure that "word" here means one or more tokens, or zero or > more tokens. If it means zero or more tokens, then 'for i in ; do ' > is perfectly legal. You're not quoting what word means. > > The reason that I ask this is that I can't see why > for i in ; do > would be any different than > for i in $foo; do > when foo is empty. They are the same thing from at last my world view > of the shell. The context of the text (previously quoted) clearly expects that "word" be expanded. An expansion which evaluates to an empty set is different from a lack of "word" to be expanded at all. That's why "in word" is optional, but "word" isn't. IIRC, $name can be set outside of the expression, which would allow it to be acted on within the list. At the same time, I'd also like to see if POSIX has a clear definition of "word." Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 1:54:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EAE837BCCA for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:54:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12RuBr-0009SD-00; Mon, 06 Mar 2000 11:52:39 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Doug Barton Cc: Warner Losh , Max Khon , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Mar 2000 01:44:35 PST." <38C37E03.A49AD802@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 11:52:39 +0200 Message-ID: <36344.952336359@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 01:44:35 PST, Doug Barton wrote: > At the same time, I'd also like to see if POSIX has a clear definition > of "word." Aha, that's what we should have looked at right in the beginning. My take on POSIX.2 3.10.2 (Shell Grammar Rules) is that _word_ may not be the empty string. Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 2:18:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pr.infosec.ru (pr.infosec.ru [194.135.141.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2CE37BD24 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 02:18:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blaze@infosec.ru) Received: from blaze (200.0.0.51 [200.0.0.51]) by pr.infosec.ru with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id D5XL4Z28; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:18:11 +0300 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:20:22 +0300 (MSK) From: Andrey Sverdlichenko X-Sender: blaze@blaze To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copy-on-write filesystem In-Reply-To: <200003032252.OAA02107@mass.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Mike Smith wrote: > > Actually, since this is copy-on-write, you do not need the block, until > > you write. If you need to make a copy, it will be on a write system call > > (possibly an inode update), just fail the write ENOSPC or whatever. Or am > > I missing something simple here. > > Failing a write into the middle of an existing file with ENOSPC is going > to break any application that's not expecting a potentially sparse file... It's an application problem, isn't it? Any write() can fail, with EIO, for example. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 5:23: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailout03.sul.t-online.de (mailout03.sul.t-online.de [194.25.134.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9980837BD67 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 05:22:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tboxberg@schuett-elektronik.de) Received: from fmrl03.sul.t-online.de by mailout03.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 12RxTO-0006Ln-00; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:22:58 +0100 Received: from mail.net (340061203289-0001@[193.159.18.127]) by fmrl03.sul.t-online.de with esmtp id 12RxTL-1AbBZ2C; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:22:55 +0100 Received: from gateway.schuett-inhouse.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA59054 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:21:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from titus@schuett-inhouse.de) Received: from schuett-inhouse.de (titus.schuett-inhouse.de [192.168.3.66]) by gateway.schuett-inhouse.de (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA59050 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:21:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from titus@schuett-inhouse.de) Message-ID: <38C3BF60.55CF16CC@schuett-inhouse.de> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 14:23:28 +0000 From: Titus von Boxberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Pthread blocking I/O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 340061203289-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I use two threads to do I/O for a process. The I/O takes place either on a socket or an I/O device (com port) file descriptor. Apparently it is not possible to shutdown those threads from a third thread, neither using close nor shutdown(2) for the socket I/O if the threads are blocked during read. What methods can one use to unblock such a blocked-on-read thread? Thanks, TITUS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 6:17:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mgw-out.comptel.com (mgw-out.comptel.com [195.237.145.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9DDA37B723 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 06:17:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stefan.parvu@comptel.com) Received: from ctlfw1 ([195.237.145.97]) by mgw-out.comptel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:17:10 +0200 Received: from mgw-in.comptel.com ([192.102.20.150]) by ctlfw1.comptel.com; Mon, 06 Mar 2000 16:15:59 +0000 (EET) Received: from comptel.com ([195.237.135.174]) by mgw-in.comptel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:17:09 +0200 Message-ID: <38C3BE39.36CDDA55@comptel.com> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 16:18:33 +0200 From: stefan parvu Reply-To: stefan.parvu@comptel.com Organization: Comptel PLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Titus von Boxberg Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pthread blocking I/O References: <38C3BF60.55CF16CC@schuett-inhouse.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I have not so much experience using POSIX threads, but we had in university a project and for I/O to use threads is not so good method. You slow down the process. Some comments? Isn't so? stefan Titus von Boxberg wrote: > > Hi, > > I use two threads to do I/O for a process. > The I/O takes place either on a socket or > an I/O device (com port) file descriptor. > > Apparently it is not possible to shutdown those > threads from a third thread, neither using close nor shutdown(2) for > the socket I/O if the threads are blocked during read. > > What methods can one use to unblock such a blocked-on-read > thread? > > Thanks, > > TITUS > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 6:18:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from acutiator.nacamar.de (mail.nacamar.de [194.162.162.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE9637BE37 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 06:18:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karsten@rohrbach.de) Received: from hardcore (dchp13.nacamar.de [195.63.63.246]) by acutiator.nacamar.de (Postfix) with SMTP id B57EC5D83; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:17:46 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <009c01bf8776$ba6783a0$f63f3fc3@hardcore> From: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" To: "Egervary Gergely" Cc: References: Subject: Re: MAXUSERS question, what is max MAXUSERS setting? Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:10:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG well i bumped it to 512 and nmbclusters to 32768 on several machines that got 5000+ (!) http requests a second... the problem is the number of maximum open files in the system (32k in this case) and open sockets. /k -- The path of excess leads to the tower of wisdom. -W. Blake Karsten W. Rohrbach - Senior Research Engineer - Nacamar Data Communications one world. one net. nacamar - http://www.nacamar.net This was written on the road... Answers to your reply could be delayed. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Egervary Gergely" To: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" Cc: Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 9:51 AM Subject: Re: MAXUSERS question, what is max MAXUSERS setting? > > i just wondered what the maximum MAXUSERS setting for a 3.4 kernel would > > be on a smp system with 512mb ram... the impact on the system structures > > seems to be very... errrhh... rather complex. > > > > any ideas? it gives me a warning if i got past 512, but what will happen > > then? > > see conf/param.c to see what it means. > > I don't thing you need to set it >128, if you have large network traffic, > you should increase NMBCLUSTERS, and other VM limits. > > -- mauzi > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 6:27: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A304837BD51 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 06:26:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id IAA09021; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:44:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:44:06 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Eischen Message-Id: <200003061344.IAA09021@pcnet1.pcnet.com> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tboxberg@schuett-elektronik.de Subject: Re: Pthread blocking I/O Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I use two threads to do I/O for a process. > The I/O takes place either on a socket or > an I/O device (com port) file descriptor. > > Apparently it is not possible to shutdown those > threads from a third thread, neither using close nor shutdown(2) for > the socket I/O if the threads are blocked during read. > > What methods can one use to unblock such a blocked-on-read > thread? The current implementation of FreeBSD pthreads only grants access to file descriptors to one thread at a time. I think if one thread tries to close a file descriptor from which another thread is reading, that the thread trying to close will block until the read completes. You can use pthread_kill() or pthread_cancel(). pthread_kill() should unblock the thread in a read state and return -1 with errno = EINTR. There were some bugs with signal handling that were fixed in -stable, so make sure you are running a relatively recent version. Dan Eischen eischen@vigrid.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 6:30:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.datais.com (mail.targetnet.com [207.245.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C5F37B723 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 06:30:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james@targetnet.com) Received: from james by mail.datais.com with local (Exim 3.02 #1) id 12RyW7-000LvE-00; Mon, 06 Mar 2000 09:29:51 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:29:51 -0500 From: James FitzGibbon To: stefan parvu Cc: Titus von Boxberg , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pthread blocking I/O Message-ID: <20000306092951.A76191@targetnet.com> References: <38C3BF60.55CF16CC@schuett-inhouse.de> <38C3BE39.36CDDA55@comptel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <38C3BE39.36CDDA55@comptel.com> Organization: Targetnet.com Inc. Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * stefan parvu (stefan.parvu@comptel.com) [000306 09:19]: > I have not so much experience using POSIX threads, but we had in > university a project and for I/O to use threads is not so good method. > You slow down the process. > > Some comments? Isn't so? In my experience, threads are the perfect way to speed up an I/O bound application. While one thread is blocked in iowait, others can be performing operations that do not contend for the same resource (calculation, I/O on some other resource like a socket, etc.) This is of course implementation dependant; if you are using a user-land thread package like MIT pthreads, the kernel sees the entire process as one schedulable entity, so if one thread blocks on IO, all threads block. If you are using a kernel-thread or hybrid implementation, the system scheduler allows the other threads to run as described above. FreeBSD's threading implementation in libc_r is (AFAIK) a hybrid model, and from personal experience I have found threaded applications under FreeBSD to be much easier to code for performance than their single-threaded counterparts. -- j. James FitzGibbon james@targetnet.com Targetnet.com Inc. Voice/Fax +1 416 306-0466/0452 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 6:43:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (dsl-206.169.4.82.wenet.com [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B4237B829 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 06:43:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA04399; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 06:43:06 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 06:43:06 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: James FitzGibbon Cc: stefan parvu , Titus von Boxberg , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pthread blocking I/O In-Reply-To: <20000306092951.A76191@targetnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, James FitzGibbon wrote: > > Some comments? Isn't so? > > In my experience, threads are the perfect way to speed up an I/O bound > application. While one thread is blocked in iowait, others can be > performing operations that do not contend for the same resource > (calculation, I/O on some other resource like a socket, etc.) Processes can do it better, and if i/o can be nonblocking, plain poll()/select() loop can do even better (pathological cases of Java and applications ported from Windows being the exception). > > This is of course implementation dependant; if you are using a user-land > thread package like MIT pthreads, the kernel sees the entire process as one > schedulable entity, so if one thread blocks on IO, all threads block. Not really. What looks like blocking i/o for you can be nonblocking for kernel if your threads support library translates it. > If > you are using a kernel-thread or hybrid implementation, the system scheduler > allows the other threads to run as described above. > > FreeBSD's threading implementation in libc_r is (AFAIK) a hybrid model, and > from personal experience I have found threaded applications under FreeBSD to > be much easier to code for performance than their single-threaded > counterparts. My experience is the opposite -- if data structures are complex enough to become a pain in the ass to lock, processes allow more simple design than threads, and nonblocking i/o usually limits complex code to some small piece of program that can be written/optimized/debugged once, then left alone. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 6:43:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.de (mailout01.sul.t-online.de [194.25.134.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B843137BE0E for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 06:43:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tboxberg@schuett-elektronik.de) Received: from fmrl03.sul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 12Ryil-0005um-00; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:42:55 +0100 Received: from mail.net (340061203289-0001@[62.158.174.187]) by fmrl03.sul.t-online.de with esmtp id 12Ryig-1FcSvYC; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:42:50 +0100 Received: from gateway.schuett-inhouse.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA59888; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:41:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from titus@schuett-inhouse.de) Received: from schuett-inhouse.de (titus.schuett-inhouse.de [192.168.3.66]) by gateway.schuett-inhouse.de (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA59789; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:33:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from titus@schuett-inhouse.de) Message-ID: <38C3D047.42027DAD@schuett-inhouse.de> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 15:35:35 +0000 From: Titus von Boxberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Eischen Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pthread blocking I/O References: <200003061344.IAA09021@pcnet1.pcnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 340061203289-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daniel Eischen wrote: > > > Apparently it is not possible to shutdown those > > threads from a third thread, neither using close nor shutdown(2) for > > the socket I/O if the threads are blocked during read. > > > > What methods can one use to unblock such a blocked-on-read > > thread? > > The current implementation of FreeBSD pthreads only grants access > to file descriptors to one thread at a time. I think if one thread and per direction (?) > tries to close a file descriptor from which another thread is > reading, that the thread trying to close will block until the > read completes. Thanks for your answer! What's the reason for locking the file descriptors for *all* system calls? especially those I mentioned? Where is pthread_cancel() ? TITUS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 6:54: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ckmso1.proxy.att.com (ckmso1.att.com [12.20.58.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C196E37BD52 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 06:53:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from myevmenkin@att.com) Received: from gab200r1.ems.att.com ([135.37.94.32]) by ckmso1.proxy.att.com (AT&T IPNS/MSO-2.2) with ESMTP id JAA19602; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from njb140bh2.ems.att.com by gab200r1.ems.att.com (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) id JAA04133; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:54:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by njb140bh2.ems.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:53:41 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" To: "'Titus von Boxberg'" , Daniel Eischen Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Pthread blocking I/O Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:53:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [...] > What's the reason for locking the file descriptors > for *all* system calls? especially those I mentioned? > > Where is pthread_cancel() ? are you using -stable (3.x)? there is no ``pthread_cancel'' in -stable. use -current. or - use other threads library - use non-blocking read - use select/poll with timeout man pthread and see /usr/src/lib/libc_r/uthread for details. thanks, emax To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 7: 1:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from holly.calldei.com (adsl-208-191-146-189.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.146.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A63737BD1B for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 07:01:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA06797; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:00:41 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:00:40 -0600 From: Chris Costello To: Max Khon Cc: Sheldon Hearn , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for Message-ID: <20000306090040.C4990@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <20000305234210.A4990@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i In-Reply-To: X-URL: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~chris/ Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, March 06, 2000, Max Khon wrote: > However, under Solaris 2.6: > clone$uname -a > SunOS clone 5.6 Generic_105181-13 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1-Engine > clone$/bin/ksh > clone$for i in ; do echo $i; done > /bin/ksh: syntax error: `;' unexpected > clone$ It is likely you are running the ksh88 version, which has quite a few ``pre-POSIX'' features. Try this command to see whether you have ksh88 or ksh93: echo ${.sh.version} If you have ksh93, you'll see something like Version M 1993-12-28 i Perhaps with a different letter at the end (`i' is the source release). I believe you'll get an error or nothing if it's ksh88. -- |Chris Costello |Know Thy User. `---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 7:17:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E450C37BCB1 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 07:17:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id QAA23979 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:17:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA37090 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:43:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: empty lists in for Date: 6 Mar 2000 13:43:14 +0100 Message-ID: <8a0952$146p$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000305234210.A4990@holly.calldei.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Max Khon wrote: > However, under Solaris 2.6: > clone$uname -a > SunOS clone 5.6 Generic_105181-13 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1-Engine > clone$/bin/ksh > clone$for i in ; do echo $i; done > /bin/ksh: syntax error: `;' unexpected That's an old ksh88, which probably doesn't conform to POSIX anyway. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 7:24: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED6837BCBF for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 07:23:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12RzKt-000LYK-00; Mon, 06 Mar 2000 17:22:19 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Keeping using locally modified source In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Mar 2000 19:59:39 EST." <200003030059.TAA29567@rac4.wam.umd.edu> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 17:22:19 +0200 Message-ID: <82851.952356139@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 02 Mar 2000 19:59:39 EST, James Howard wrote: > The problem is how do we keep up with -STABLE afterwards? Using > CVSup, out changes will get clobbered every time. Is there a facility > where you can keep up with the source but let local modifications > through? CVS does this beautifully. The only problem is that you need access to a repo. If you were closer, I'd offer you anoncvs. Try to find an anoncvs server near you. The most viable alternative I've used is a shell script that patches the checked out sources with copies of patches in a specified directory. This worked well for me until my local guru pointed out that what you want to do here is _exactly_ what CVS does for you. CVSup was not designed for synchronizing checked out sources (although it has certainly become very popular for just that). Here, you're running into a limitation of CVSup. Of course, since I haven't used CVSup in a long time, it's quite possible that jdp has added CVS-like merging and conflict resolution to CVSup. ;-) Hopefully, you either have good bandwidth or lots of disk. If you have good bandwidth, use CVS. If you have lots of disk, use CVSup to keep a local repo and use CVS to synchronize your checked out sources against that repo. Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 8:14:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za (ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za [196.7.114.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ADA037BDF0 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:14:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johan@ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za) Received: by ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA63487 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:14:16 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from johan) Received: by ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA63471 for freebsd-hackers; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:08:30 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from johan) From: Johan Kruger Reply-To: jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za Organization: Nanoteq To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: KLD's Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 17:54:51 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00030618082902.49723@ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am busy to convert two lkm's to kld's and having some problem with it. The scenario is two lkm's ( now kld's ) which are loaded dependantly ( A and B ) I used to load them as : /sbin/modload -o /tmp/kern.sym ./A.o /sbin/modload -A /tmp/kern.sym ./B.o to keep the symbols available. The general layout of the modules used to look like the lkm examples they gave in /usr/share/examples/lkm/misc ( SPECIFICALLY misc one ) I couldn't get an example of a KLD looking like this one, there is only ......./kld/cdev and ..../kld/syscall. So i used syscall examples. Then i compiled the module B.ko with A.ko as a dependancy. ( I think i did , specked KMODDEPS= cspop_mod.ko which is module A in the Makefile. I am loading with kldload ./A and kldload ./B ( it's the only way i know of ). But now it still looks as if the two modules dont know about each other. Is there an example of something like this lying around ??? How do i (link) the symbols to the second KLD loaded ??? -- Johan Kruger ( B.Ing Electronic Engineering ) Developement Engineer Nanoteq PTA ( 012 6727000 ) e-mail : jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za e-mail : jk@nanoteq.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 8:14:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za (ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za [196.7.114.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A16337BB48 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:14:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johan@ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za) Received: by ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA63490 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:14:16 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from johan) From: Johan Kruger Reply-To: jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za Organization: Nanoteq To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: KLD's Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:13:39 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00030618141601.63483@ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am busy to convert two lkm's to kld's and having some problem with it. The scenario is two lkm's ( now kld's ) which are loaded dependantly ( A and B ) I used to load them as : /sbin/modload -o /tmp/kern.sym ./A.o /sbin/modload -A /tmp/kern.sym ./B.o to keep the symbols available. The general layout of the modules used to look like the lkm examples they gave in /usr/share/examples/lkm/misc ( SPECIFICALLY misc one ) I couldn't get an example of a KLD looking like this one, there is only ......./kld/cdev and ..../kld/syscall. So i used syscall examples. Then i compiled the module B.ko with A.ko as a dependancy. ( I think i did , specked KMODDEPS= cspop_mod.ko which is module A in the Makefile. I am loading with kldload ./A and kldload ./B ( it's the only way i know of ). But now it still looks as if the two modules dont know about each other. Is there an example of something like this lying around ??? How do i (link) the symbols to the second KLD loaded ??? -- Johan Kruger ( B.Ing Electronic Engineering ) Developement Engineer Nanoteq PTA ( 012 6727000 ) e-mail : jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za e-mail : jk@nanoteq.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 8:15: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87AE937BDF1 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:14:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id LAA02543; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:14:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:14:48 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Eischen Message-Id: <200003061614.LAA02543@pcnet1.pcnet.com> To: eischen@vigrid.com, tboxberg@schuett-elektronik.de Subject: Re: Pthread blocking I/O Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Titus von Boxberg wrote: > Daniel Eischen wrote: > > > > > Apparently it is not possible to shutdown those > > > threads from a third thread, neither using close nor shutdown(2) for > > > the socket I/O if the threads are blocked during read. > > > > > > What methods can one use to unblock such a blocked-on-read > > > thread? > > > > The current implementation of FreeBSD pthreads only grants access > > to file descriptors to one thread at a time. I think if one thread > > and per direction (?) Yes, per direction. I think a close() will try to lock the file descriptor for both read and write though. > > tries to close a file descriptor from which another thread is > > reading, that the thread trying to close will block until the > > read completes. > Thanks for your answer! > > What's the reason for locking the file descriptors > for *all* system calls? especially those I mentioned? I dunno. That's the way it was implemented when I started working on the threads library. I suppose to protect poorly written programs from themselves? I haven't found anything in the POSIX spec that directly addresses this issue, but I haven't spent the time to thoroughly read the spec either. You certainly want to make accesses/modifications to FILE types atomic/protected, but I think it's the applications responsibilty to synchronize access to file descriptors for I/O. As in your example, I think you should allow one thread to close a file descriptor while another thread is reading from it. Dan Eischen eischen@vigrid.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 9: 6:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nike.ins.cwru.edu (nike.INS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.8.219]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4F637BE34 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:06:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chet@nike.ins.cwru.edu) Received: (chet@localhost) by nike.ins.cwru.edu (8.9.3/CWRU-2.5-bsdi) id MAA22850; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:05:35 -0500 (EST) (from chet) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:04:53 -0500 From: Chet Ramey To: sheldonh@uunet.co.za Subject: Re: empty lists in for Cc: fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu Message-ID: <1000306170453.AA22843.SM@nike.ins.cwru.edu> Read-Receipt-To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-In-Reply-To: Message from sheldonh@uunet.co.za of Sat, 04 Mar 2000 15:36:43 +0200 (id <57223.952177003@axl.ops.uunet.co.za>) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:10:15 +0600, Max Khon wrote: > > > bash and ksh complain about unexpected ';'. > > /bin/sh (FreeBSD) thinks it's ok and does nothing. > > Which behaviour is more POSIXly correct? > > Neither bash nor ksh claim to be particularly POSIX compliant. Bash claims POSIX.2 compliance. If you have specific reports of non-compliance, send them to bug-bash@gnu.org. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ( ``Discere est Dolere'' -- chet) Chet Ramey, CWRU chet@po.CWRU.Edu http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/~chet/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 9:11:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nike.ins.cwru.edu (nike.INS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.8.219]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E31D37BDEA for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:11:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chet@nike.ins.cwru.edu) Received: (chet@localhost) by nike.ins.cwru.edu (8.9.3/CWRU-2.5-bsdi) id MAA22862; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:11:03 -0500 (EST) (from chet) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:09:02 -0500 From: Chet Ramey To: jhix@mindspring.com Subject: Re: empty lists in for Cc: Doug@gorean.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu Message-ID: <1000306170902.AA22857.SM@nike.ins.cwru.edu> Read-Receipt-To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-In-Reply-To: Message from jhix@mindspring.com of Sun, 05 Mar 2000 20:41:15 -0800 (id <20000305204115E.jhix@mindspring.com>) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Even though it's my preferred shell, I certainly wouldn't say > that Bash is any sort of standard, certainly not in the POSIX > sense. Bash implements the POSIX.2 standard, with certain well-defined exceptions (`posix mode'). > Imagine processing a possibly empty list constructed from a > 'make' expansion... Without this behavior one would have to > code a guard of some sort around the 'for' construct. The idiomatic solution for this sort of thing is changing your makefile recipes from for f in ${SUBDIRS} do ... to sh_subdirs=${SUBDIRS}; for f in $$sh_subdirs ; do ... -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ( ``Discere est Dolere'' -- chet) Chet Ramey, CWRU chet@po.CWRU.Edu http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/~chet/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 9:12:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from cs.rpi.edu (mumble.cs.rpi.edu [128.213.8.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD70537BE3F; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:12:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crossd@cs.rpi.edu) Received: from cs.rpi.edu (monica.cs.rpi.edu [128.213.7.2]) by cs.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA40849; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:12:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200003061712.MAA40849@cs.rpi.edu> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Cc: crossd@cs.rpi.edu Subject: rpc.lockd and xdr. Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:12:19 -0500 From: "David E. Cross" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Version 2 of the lock manager is ready to be released. Amitha says that it passes all of the tests in the suite posted by Drew (thanks Drew). A noteable exception to this is on SGI where some lock requests are never even received from the remote host. Also DOS sharing is not yet complete. On a side note, it would appear that at least some of the problems of the previous version were in FreeBSD's XDR library. The xdr_*_int64 routines do not correctly do network byte order conversions. Included below is Amitha's 'hack fix'. ==== My hack fix (this is to /usr/src/lib/libc/xdr/xdr.c) is below. A similar fix needs to be applied to xdr_int64_t. Note that xdr_opaque takes care of swapping the bits in the byte. #define SWAP(a,b,t) t=a;a=b;b=t bool_t my_xdr_u_int64_t(xdrs, uint64_p) register XDR *xdrs; u_int64_t *uint64_p; { u_int64_t x; unsigned char* b= &x; unsigned char t; switch (xdrs->x_op) { case XDR_ENCODE: SWAP(b[0], b[7], t); SWAP(b[1], b[6], t); SWAP(b[2], b[5], t); SWAP(b[3], b[4], t); return (xdr_opaque(xdrs, (caddr_t)uint64_p, sizeof(u_int64_t))) ; case XDR_DECODE: if (!xdr_opaque(xdrs, (caddr_t)&x, sizeof x)) { return (FALSE); } SWAP(b[0], b[7], t); SWAP(b[1], b[6], t); SWAP(b[2], b[5], t); SWAP(b[3], b[4], t); *uint64_p = x; return (TRUE); case XDR_FREE: return (TRUE); } return (FALSE); } ===== -- David Cross | email: crossd@cs.rpi.edu Acting Lab Director | NYSLP: FREEBSD Systems Administrator/Research Programmer | Web: http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~crossd Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, | Ph: 518.276.2860 Department of Computer Science | Fax: 518.276.4033 I speak only for myself. | WinNT:Linux::Linux:FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 9:16:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nike.ins.cwru.edu (nike.INS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.8.219]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353E637BE34 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:16:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chet@nike.ins.cwru.edu) Received: (chet@localhost) by nike.ins.cwru.edu (8.9.3/CWRU-2.5-bsdi) id MAA22877; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:15:08 -0500 (EST) (from chet) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:12:03 -0500 From: Chet Ramey To: imp@village.org Subject: Re: empty lists in for Cc: sheldonh@uunet.co.za, Doug@gorean.org, fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu Message-ID: <1000306171203.AA22870.SM@nike.ins.cwru.edu> Read-Receipt-To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-In-Reply-To: Message from imp@village.org of Mon, 06 Mar 2000 02:32:57 -0700 (id <200003060932.CAA57921@harmony.village.org>) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Are you sure that "word" here means one or more tokens, or zero or > more tokens. If it means zero or more tokens, then 'for i in ; do ' > is perfectly legal. You're not quoting what word means. The standard says that `word' may not be the empty string. POSIX.2, 3.10. > The reason that I ask this is that I can't see why > for i in ; do > would be any different than > for i in $foo; do > when foo is empty. They are the same thing from at last my world view > of the shell. Because parsing and expansion are different things, and expansion is performed after a command has been completely parsed. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ( ``Discere est Dolere'' -- chet) Chet Ramey, CWRU chet@po.CWRU.Edu http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/~chet/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 9:38:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5414437BE6D for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 56944196; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:38:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:38:25 -0800 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: It is back Message-ID: <20000306093824.A59906@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 3.4-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is New X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-PGP-KEY: http://www.oneinsane.net/~insane/insane2-pgp5i.txt X-Uptime: 9:32AM up 3 days, 2:51, 3 users, load averages: 0.01, 0.04, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Remember a few months back when it was mentioned that the Netgear FS-105 was on sale at CompUSA. Wel Frye's Electronics has them on sale till tomorrow for $93.99. Just thought I would let people know there is a second chance. TIA -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------- A PBS mind in a MTV world To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 9:59: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E969E37BE13 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:59:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B6309196; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:59:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:59:00 -0800 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It is back Message-ID: <20000306095900.B59906@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson References: <20000306093824.A59906@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000306093824.A59906@lunatic.oneinsane.net>; from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net on Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 09:38:25AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 3.4-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is New X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-PGP-KEY: http://www.oneinsane.net/~insane/insane2-pgp5i.txt X-Uptime: 9:57AM up 3 days, 3:16, 3 users, load averages: 0.23, 0.22, 0.09 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 06 Mar 2000, Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson was heard blurting out: > Remember a few months back when it was mentioned that the Netgear FS-105 > was on sale at CompUSA. Wel Frye's Electronics has them on sale till > tomorrow for $93.99. Just thought I would let people know there is a > second chance. > Ooopppssss!!! I forgot to tell what it is for the people seeing this for the first time.. It is a 5port 10/100 switch. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------- Is it time for your medication or mine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 10:39:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from enginet.com (enginet.com [199.2.210.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDEA337BD69 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:39:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@enginet.com) Received: from enginet.com (marc@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enginet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19796; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:39:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003061839.KAA19796@enginet.com> To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How to fdisk/disklabel whole disk for FreeBSD from command line? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Mar 2000 01:14:51 MST." <200003040814.BAA32604@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 10:39:39 PST From: Marc Frajola Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200003040814.BAA32604@harmony.village.org>, Warner Losh writes: > In message Doug White writes: > : > fdisk -e /dev/rda1 > : > disklabel -r -w da1 auto > : > : Yeah, this is wrong. You need to specify a slice. > > But you can't specify a slice here. It won't work. If you give it > the whole path, disklabel won't even try. If you day da1s1, it will > complain that it can't fit a disklabel for the entire disk into the > slice smaller than the disk with some cryptic error message or another > :-). Probably an error like 'No space left on device' (the error message I talked about in my original posting about this problem). :) > : I generally don't depend on the 'auto' magic -- it breaks for IDE > : disks, and I'm not sure it works for slices either. > > It breaks for all disk lables that aren't the entire disk. Thanks, this is VERY helpful information to me -- I was expecting 'auto' mode to work on an fdisk slice, and knowing that it doesn't work there tells me to pursue less optimal options. > : I'm looking at the script and notice that it doesn't select slice > : 1... somehow disklabel DTRT. It works here :-) > > Well, you could look at my diskprep script that I just posted a > reference to. > http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/diskprep > (also needs patches to fdisk: > http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/fdisk-patch) I'd like to commit it to > FreeBSD after 4.0 goes out the door. We have many partital solutions > to this problem. It is time to make a simple, standard tool to do > this. No, sysinstall doesn't count here because it isn't simple and > cannot be driven from a script. The fla tool is limited to fla DOC2K > disks. The prepdisk in picobsd has too many things hard coded and > will work only for ide disks. > > It is designed to create a sane slice (ala fdisk -I (since -e -> -I > soon)) and put a reasonable disklabel on it. By default it does only > one partition, but can be configured to do more. I wrote it to deal > with creating dozens of compact flash labeling when I'm given a hodge > podge of CF sizes and manufactures to create images for (sometimes 48M > parts are available, other times 45M parts, and each of those sizes > varies +- 300 blocks between vendors). > > Warner Warner, thanks for the diskprep reference. I was hoping there was some automagic disklabel command flag I was missing to automatically create a valid FreeBSD partition table that covers a whole FreeBSD slice, but after the many messages in this thread, I've come to the conclusion that 'fdisk -e' (or -I as it will become) can automatically create the fdisk slice, but the FreeBSD disklabel parameters must be calculated externally from disklabel, requiring a script, such as prepdisk. In short, the disklabel command simply doesn't have the capability to automatically create a label that covers an entire FreeBSD fdisk slice. Note that disklabel auto mode works fine if you want to use "Dangerously dedicated mode", which I do not. I have written my own Perl script that reads dmesg to get the disk geometry and then generates a proper FreeBSD partition (disklabel) label, and have verified that I can get the result I want this way. A problem with both prepdisk and my script is that it depends on the format of the kernel autoconfiguration entry for the sizes of disks to stay relatively static. The message format changed recently, and future such changes will cause our scripts to break. I believe the right solution to all this is to use a C program doing ioctl's on the raw device to get disk geometry info, and then using libdisk to write a proper label. Just as a side note, I discovered that 'fdisk -e' produces a different ending cylinder number on the fdisk slice than sysinstall, even though the number of sectors in the fdisk slice between the two methods are identical. This doesn't seem to effect operation at all, but I'd guess that the sysinstall number of 1023 is probably more accurate than the less-than 1023 numbers I get with 'fdisk -e'. This is probably a bug in 'fdisk -e'. ...Marc... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 10:46:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C03437BC20 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:46:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02390; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:45:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003061845.NAA02390@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 13:45:58 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" Subject: RE: Pthread blocking I/O Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, Daniel Eischen , Titus von Boxberg Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Mar-00 Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO wrote: > [...] > >> What's the reason for locking the file descriptors >> for *all* system calls? especially those I mentioned? >> >> Where is pthread_cancel() ? > > are you using -stable (3.x)? there is no ``pthread_cancel'' in -stable. > use -current. Bzzzzt!!! Wrong! > uname -a FreeBSD server.baldwin.cx 3.4-STABLE FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE #6: Sun Feb 20 20:24:19 EST 2000 root@server.baldwin.cx:/usr/source/src/sys/compile/SERVER i386 > man -k pthread_cancel pthread_cancel(3) - cancel execution of a thread > nm /usr/lib/libc_r.so | grep pthread_cancel 00078524 T pthread_cancel You do need a fairly recent -stable, but it's in there. :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 10:46:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 964D937BF84 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:46:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02386; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:45:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003061845.NAA02386@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38C3737B.63ACC551@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 13:45:44 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Doug Barton Subject: Re: empty lists in for Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, Max Khon , Sheldon Hearn Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Mar-00 Doug Barton wrote: > I just checked POSIX 1003.2. > > for name [ in word ] > do > compound-list > done > > the "in word" is optional. Therefore: > > for name in ; do echo $name; done > > is an error, whereas > > for name ; do echo $name; done These are two different functions. The second one loops through the command line parameters. > is not, and Bash does not report it as so, in or out of POSIX mode. > Also, your snippet clearly expects that there will be a word after "in." > It could easily be argued from that context that the presence of "in" > without a "word" to go with it is an error, even without the bit from > Martin's post. > > All that said, if the ports make system depends on the current > behavior, it has to be fixed before we can contemplate any changes. Patches accepted. > Doug -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 10:48:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5702537B6D7 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:48:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA54993; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:48:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA60654; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:48:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200003061848.LAA60654@harmony.village.org> To: Marc Frajola Subject: Re: How to fdisk/disklabel whole disk for FreeBSD from command line? Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Mar 2000 10:39:39 PST." <200003061839.KAA19796@enginet.com> References: <200003061839.KAA19796@enginet.com> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 11:48:19 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200003061839.KAA19796@enginet.com> Marc Frajola writes: : I have written my own Perl script that reads dmesg to get the disk : geometry and then generates a proper FreeBSD partition (disklabel) : label, and have verified that I can get the result I want this way. Bad idea. Too many different formats. Also, it doesn't work for removable media like CF cards. The format for scsi is different than ata, and ata changed recently. You also have problems with slow SCSI devices that take a while to print their probe messages. If it is after /var/run/dmesg.boot is created you won't find them there. And if you are using the dmesg buffer, it can wrap with log messages before you try to access the disk. : A problem with both prepdisk and my script is that it depends on : the format of the kernel autoconfiguration entry for the sizes of : disks to stay relatively static. The message format changed recently, : and future such changes will cause our scripts to break. My diskprep doesn't break. I don't parse the boot messages. I tell fdisk to give me the information, and then use it. That's why I said that it depended fdisk patches. fdisk -s after the change will do the right thing and give good summary information. : I believe the right solution to all this is to use a C program : doing ioctl's on the raw device to get disk geometry info, and then : using libdisk to write a proper label. Uggg. I've had less than good luck with libdisk. It is completely broken for me right now. This is even when I do a build world and install a kernel at the same time.. Something to do with the raw/block changes a while ago? I can't seem to get this to work at all, and it is quite frustrating since it would be ideal. I may try again later, but for now libdisk has left a bad taste in my mouth... : Just as a side note, I discovered that 'fdisk -e' produces a : different ending cylinder number on the fdisk slice than sysinstall, : even though the number of sectors in the fdisk slice between the two : methods are identical. This doesn't seem to effect operation at all, : but I'd guess that the sysinstall number of 1023 is probably more : accurate than the less-than 1023 numbers I get with 'fdisk -e'. This is : probably a bug in 'fdisk -e'. Not sure about this. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 10:59:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA6637BA81 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:59:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12S2hV-0002eh-00; Mon, 06 Mar 2000 20:57:53 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu Cc: fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:04:53 EST." <1000306170453.AA22843.SM@nike.ins.cwru.edu> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 20:57:53 +0200 Message-ID: <10210.952369073@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:04:53 EST, Chet Ramey wrote: > Bash claims POSIX.2 compliance. If you have specific reports of > non-compliance, send them to bug-bash@gnu.org. I spoke out of turn. Please permit me to extract my foot from my mouth and try to reattach it to some part of the body that'll have more use for it. :-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 11: 6: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kcmso1.proxy.att.com (kcmso1.att.com [192.128.133.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDDD37C093; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:05:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from myevmenkin@att.com) Received: from flf960r1.ems.att.com ([135.71.244.37]) by kcmso1.proxy.att.com (AT&T IPNS/MSO-2.2) with ESMTP id OAA02944; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from njb140bh3.ems.att.com by flf960r1.ems.att.com (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) id NAA17421; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:58:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by njb140bh3.ems.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:05:41 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" To: "'John Baldwin'" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, Daniel Eischen , Titus von Boxberg Subject: RE: Pthread blocking I/O Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:05:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [...] > > are you using -stable (3.x)? there is no ``pthread_cancel'' > in -stable. > > use -current. > > Bzzzzt!!! Wrong! > > > uname -a > FreeBSD server.baldwin.cx 3.4-STABLE FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE #6: > Sun Feb 20 20:24:19 EST 2000 > root@server.baldwin.cx:/usr/source/src/sys/compile/SERVER i386 > > man -k pthread_cancel > pthread_cancel(3) - cancel execution of a thread > > nm /usr/lib/libc_r.so | grep pthread_cancel > 00078524 T pthread_cancel xxx:/usr/home/xxx> uname -a FreeBSD xxx.xxx.ru 3.4-STABLE FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE #4: Mon Jan 3 16:01:58 EST 2000 root@xxx.xxx.ru:/usr/src/sys/compile/xxx i386 xxx:/usr/home/xxx> man -k pthread_cancel pthread_cancel: nothing appropriate xxx:/usr/home/xxx> xxx:/usr/home/xxx> nm /usr/lib/libc_r.so | grep pthread_cancel xxx:/usr/home/xxx> > You do need a fairly recent -stable, but it's in there. :) indeed :-) thanks, emax To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 11:43:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9341C37BDC6; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 11:43:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id OAA05393; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:43:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:43:23 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Eischen To: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" Cc: "'John Baldwin'" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, Titus von Boxberg Subject: RE: Pthread blocking I/O In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO wrote: > [...] > > > > are you using -stable (3.x)? there is no ``pthread_cancel'' > > in -stable. > > > use -current. > > > > Bzzzzt!!! Wrong! > > > > > uname -a > > FreeBSD server.baldwin.cx 3.4-STABLE FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE #6: > > Sun Feb 20 20:24:19 EST 2000 > > root@server.baldwin.cx:/usr/source/src/sys/compile/SERVER i386 > > > man -k pthread_cancel > > pthread_cancel(3) - cancel execution of a thread > > > nm /usr/lib/libc_r.so | grep pthread_cancel > > 00078524 T pthread_cancel > > xxx:/usr/home/xxx> uname -a > FreeBSD xxx.xxx.ru 3.4-STABLE FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE #4: Mon Jan 3 16:01:58 EST > 2000 root@xxx.xxx.ru:/usr/src/sys/compile/xxx i386 > > xxx:/usr/home/xxx> man -k pthread_cancel > pthread_cancel: nothing appropriate > xxx:/usr/home/xxx> > > xxx:/usr/home/xxx> nm /usr/lib/libc_r.so | grep pthread_cancel > xxx:/usr/home/xxx> > > > You do need a fairly recent -stable, but it's in there. :) > > indeed :-) You're a day too old. The cancellation functions were brought into -stable on January 4th. Dan Eischen eischen@vigrid.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 12:16:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83FAA37C01D for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:15:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA55323; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:15:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA61215; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:15:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200003062015.NAA61215@harmony.village.org> To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu Subject: Re: empty lists in for Cc: jhix@mindspring.com, Doug@gorean.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Mar 2000 12:09:02 EST." <1000306170902.AA22857.SM@nike.ins.cwru.edu> References: <1000306170902.AA22857.SM@nike.ins.cwru.edu> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 13:15:45 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <1000306170902.AA22857.SM@nike.ins.cwru.edu> Chet Ramey writes: : The idiomatic solution for this sort of thing is changing : your makefile recipes from : : for f in ${SUBDIRS} do ... : : to : : sh_subdirs=${SUBDIRS}; for f in $$sh_subdirs ; do ... That's much better than what I've tended to do: for f in x ${FOO}; do if [ $f != x ]; then fi done there's lots of other workarounds, from seeing if SUBDIRS is defined, to using make's .foreach. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 12:38:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E2F6637B5F6 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:38:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iedowse@maths.tcd.ie) Received: from walton.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 6 Mar 2000 20:38:45 +0000 (GMT) To: Warner Losh Cc: chet@po.CWRU.Edu, jhix@mindspring.com, Doug@gorean.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, iedowse@maths.tcd.ie Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Mar 2000 13:15:45 MST." <200003062015.NAA61215@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 20:38:44 +0000 From: Ian Dowse Message-ID: <200003062038.aa62975@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200003062015.NAA61215@harmony.village.org>, Warner Losh writes: >: to >: >: sh_subdirs=${SUBDIRS}; for f in $$sh_subdirs ; do ... > >there's lots of other workarounds, from seeing if SUBDIRS is defined, >to using make's .foreach. Another option is: for f in $$empty_list ${SUBDIRS}; do ... where 'empty_list' is any undefined sh variable. Ian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 13:34:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au (sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au [24.192.3.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1D837BB0D for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:34:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au) Received: from areilly.bpc-users.org (CPE-144-132-171-71.nsw.bigpond.net.au [144.132.171.71]) by sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA13741 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 08:33:08 +1100 (EDT) Received: (qmail 51105 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Mar 2000 21:33:06 -0000 From: "Andrew Reilly" Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 08:33:06 +1100 To: John Baldwin Cc: Doug Barton , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Max Khon , Sheldon Hearn Subject: Re: empty lists in for Message-ID: <20000307083306.A47885@gurney.reilly.home> References: <38C3737B.63ACC551@gorean.org> <200003061845.NAA02386@server.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200003061845.NAA02386@server.baldwin.cx> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 01:45:44PM -0500, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 06-Mar-00 Doug Barton wrote: > > All that said, if the ports make system depends on the current > > behavior, it has to be fixed before we can contemplate any changes. > > Patches accepted. The construction set -- ${MAKE_MACRO} ; for i ; do echo $i; done seems to do what we want. Well, it works with bash and freebsd's sh. -- Andrew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 14: 6:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 802C137BADF for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:06:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id OAA02714; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:06:26 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id OAA01761; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:06:25 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id PAA10226; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:06:18 -0700 Message-ID: <38C42BDD.DDDA91F3@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 15:06:21 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ron Rosson Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It is back References: <20000306093824.A59906@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: > > Remember a few months back when it was mentioned that the Netgear FS-105 > was on sale at CompUSA. Wel Frye's Electronics has them on sale till > tomorrow for $93.99. Just thought I would let people know there is a > second chance. I'm very happy with mine. c|net shopper shows the list price as $95.00 now, and prices as low as $81.05. buy.com has them for $82.95. http://www.shopper.com/ is your friend here. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 14:15: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nike.ins.cwru.edu (nike.INS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.8.219]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20E837BFCA for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:14:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chet@nike.ins.cwru.edu) Received: (chet@localhost) by nike.ins.cwru.edu (8.9.3/CWRU-2.5-bsdi) id RAA37031; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 17:14:24 -0500 (EST) (from chet) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 17:13:30 -0500 From: Chet Ramey To: iedowse@maths.tcd.ie Subject: Re: empty lists in for Cc: imp@village.org, jhix@mindspring.com, Doug@gorean.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, iedowse@maths.tcd.ie Reply-To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu Message-ID: <1000306221330.AA36812.SM@nike.ins.cwru.edu> Read-Receipt-To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-In-Reply-To: Message from iedowse@maths.tcd.ie of Mon, 06 Mar 2000 20:38:44 +0000 (id <200003062038.aa62975@salmon.maths.tcd.ie>) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In message <200003062015.NAA61215@harmony.village.org>, Warner Losh writes: > > >: to > >: > >: sh_subdirs=${SUBDIRS}; for f in $$sh_subdirs ; do ... > > > > >there's lots of other workarounds, from seeing if SUBDIRS is defined, > >to using make's .foreach. > > Another option is: > > for f in $$empty_list ${SUBDIRS}; do ... > > where 'empty_list' is any undefined sh variable. Not bad, but will break if the shell is run with the `-u' option on for some reason. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ( ``Discere est Dolere'' -- chet) Chet Ramey, CWRU chet@po.CWRU.Edu http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/~chet/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 15: 3:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FC937BA2E; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:03:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id PAA04270; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:03:20 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA05743; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:03:19 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id QAA10590; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:03:00 -0700 Message-ID: <38C43926.B5AD5E87@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 16:03:02 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Daniel Eischen , Titus von Boxberg Subject: Re: Pthread blocking I/O References: <200003061845.NAA02390@server.baldwin.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > > On 06-Mar-00 Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO wrote: > > [...] > > > >> What's the reason for locking the file descriptors > >> for *all* system calls? especially those I mentioned? > >> > >> Where is pthread_cancel() ? > > > > are you using -stable (3.x)? there is no ``pthread_cancel'' in -stable. > > use -current. > > Bzzzzt!!! Wrong! > > [system info elided...] > > You do need a fairly recent -stable, but it's in there. :) From the manpage, I'd guess the magic date to be on or about Jan 17, 2000. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 15:19:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu (bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu [128.226.1.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5945937BB2B for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:19:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu) Received: from sol.cs.binghamton.edu (sol.cs.binghamton.edu [128.226.123.100]) by bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA14551 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:19:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:55:17 -0500 (EST) From: Zhihui Zhang To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Where is pci_intr_establish() & _thread_sys_read()? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Can anyone tell me where is the code for pci_intr_establish() and _thread_sys_read()? I could not find them under /usr/src. Thanks, -Zhihui To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 15:52: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977DE37C093; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:52:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id SAA13982; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:51:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:51:47 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Eischen To: Wes Peters Cc: John Baldwin , "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Titus von Boxberg Subject: Re: Pthread blocking I/O In-Reply-To: <38C43926.B5AD5E87@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: > > > > On 06-Mar-00 Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO wrote: > > > [...] > > > > > >> What's the reason for locking the file descriptors > > >> for *all* system calls? especially those I mentioned? > > >> > > >> Where is pthread_cancel() ? > > > > > > are you using -stable (3.x)? there is no ``pthread_cancel'' in -stable. > > > use -current. > > > > Bzzzzt!!! Wrong! > > > > [system info elided...] > > > > You do need a fairly recent -stable, but it's in there. :) > > >From the manpage, I'd guess the magic date to be on or about Jan 17, > 2000. I used the CVS logs for src/lib/libc_r/uthread/uthread_cancel.c: ---------------------------- revision 1.2.2.1 date: 2000/01/04 10:42:19; author: tg; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 MFC: Cancellation functions. Reviewed by: deischen ============================================================================= Some of the man pages and cancellation support came from OpenBSD (David Leonard). The man page appears to have been written on Jan 17, 1999 for OpenBSD. FreeBSD-current and -stable came much later. Dan Eischen eischen@vigrid.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 16:13: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from holly.calldei.com (adsl-208-191-146-189.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.146.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C62737BDEC for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:12:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA09142; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:14:05 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:14:05 -0600 From: Chris Costello To: Zhihui Zhang Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where is pci_intr_establish() & _thread_sys_read()? Message-ID: <20000306181404.H4990@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i In-Reply-To: X-URL: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~chris/ Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, March 06, 2000, Zhihui Zhang wrote: > Can anyone tell me where is the code for pci_intr_establish() and > _thread_sys_read()? I could not find them under /usr/src. I can tell you offhand that _thread_sys_anything is the _real_ syscall for `anything'. This is because a lot of syscalls are reimplemented within libc_r for reasons that are kind of obvious (directly calling the read syscall from one thread would block all the other threads in a process). So _thread_sys_open() == open(2), _thread_sys_read() == read(2), etc. I don't know about pci_intr_establish. -- |Chris Costello |Today's assembler command : EXOP Execute Operator `---------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 17:11:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from oracle.dsuper.net (oracle.dsuper.net [205.205.255.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D6137BDE4 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 17:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmilekic@dsuper.net) Received: from oracle.dsuper.net (oracle.dsuper.net [205.205.255.1]) by oracle.dsuper.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15512; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:10:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:10:56 -0500 (EST) From: Bosko Milekic To: Chris Costello Cc: Zhihui Zhang , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where is pci_intr_establish() & _thread_sys_read()? In-Reply-To: <20000306181404.H4990@holly.calldei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Chris Costello wrote: >On Monday, March 06, 2000, Zhihui Zhang wrote: >> Can anyone tell me where is the code for pci_intr_establish() and >> _thread_sys_read()? I could not find them under /usr/src. > > I can tell you offhand that _thread_sys_anything is the _real_ >syscall for `anything'. This is because a lot of syscalls are >reimplemented within libc_r for reasons that are kind of obvious >(directly calling the read syscall from one thread would block >all the other threads in a process). So _thread_sys_open() == >open(2), _thread_sys_read() == read(2), etc. > > I don't know about pci_intr_establish. > >-- >|Chris Costello >|Today's assembler command : EXOP Execute Operator >`---------------------------------------------------- > pci_intr_establish is not part of FreeBSD's interface(s), as far as I know. This probably belongs to either NetBSD or OpenBSD (since the drivers that use this routine to setup an interrupt use it under #if defined(__OpenBSD__) or __NetBSD__ blocks. See our bus interface code (e.g. bus_if.[ch]) --Bosko .......................................................................... Bosko Milekic * bmilekic@dsuper.net * http://pages.infinit.net/bmilekic/ Montreal, Quebec, Canada. * Technokratis: http://www.technokratis.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 19:57: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bubba.whistle.com (bubba.whistle.com [207.76.205.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B4537BECD; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:57:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id TAA38892; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:57:01 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <200003070357.TAA38892@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Help: interrupt timeout To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:57:01 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG My laptop running 3.4-RELEASE decided it doesn't want to boot. It was uncleanly shut down via the power switch by someone who thought they were shutting down a different machine. Now when it boots, running fsck gives this result: > chip0: rev 0x01 on pci0.0.0 > chip1: rev 0x02 on pci0.7.0 > ide_pci0: rev 0x01 on pci0.7.1 > ... > wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x3f7 irq 14 on isa > wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): > wd0: 6194MB (12685680 sectors), 13424 cyls, 15 heads, 63 S/T 512 B/S > wdc1 at 0x170-0x177 irq 15 on isa > wdc1: unit 0 (atapi): , removable, accel, dma, iordis > ... > # fsck / > *** /dev/rwd0s3a > *** Last Mounted on / > *** Root file system > *** Phase 1 - Check Blocks and Sizes > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 58 error 0) > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > wd0: Last time I say: interrupt timeout. Probably a portable PC. (status 50 error 1) Well, yes in fact it is a portable PC :-) It just seems to hang at this point, even though there seems to be disk activity (like it's continuously retrying). This machine has run fine under this kernel since I installed 3.4-REL a month ago or so. This same problem happens with the 3.4-REL GENERIC kernel. Before this, it was running fine with a 3.0++ kernel and never had this problem after many power cycles. Is there any hope in getting this machine to work again?? Howabout disabling DMA? Is there some way to do that? Thanks for any pointers.. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 20: 2:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.highstability.com (ns1.highstability.com [216.114.10.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B5B37BF1D; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:02:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chrisb@highstability.com) Received: from localhost (chrisb@localhost) by ns1.highstability.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA78478; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:02:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:02:34 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Byrnes To: Archie Cobbs Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Help: interrupt timeout In-Reply-To: <200003070357.TAA38892@bubba.whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've had the same problem. Most people have told me that I have to replace the hard drive. I never had the problem before 3.4. Maybe that's just a coincidence, though. -- Chris Byrnes (CB5820) Network Engineer, High Stability Internet Services http://www.highstability.com On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Archie Cobbs wrote: > My laptop running 3.4-RELEASE decided it doesn't want to boot. > It was uncleanly shut down via the power switch by someone > who thought they were shutting down a different machine. > > Now when it boots, running fsck gives this result: > > > chip0: rev 0x01 on pci0.0.0 > > chip1: rev 0x02 on pci0.7.0 > > ide_pci0: rev 0x01 on pci0.7.1 > > ... > > wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x3f7 irq 14 on isa > > wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): > > wd0: 6194MB (12685680 sectors), 13424 cyls, 15 heads, 63 S/T 512 B/S > > wdc1 at 0x170-0x177 irq 15 on isa > > wdc1: unit 0 (atapi): , removable, accel, dma, iordis > > ... > > # fsck / > > *** /dev/rwd0s3a > > *** Last Mounted on / > > *** Root file system > > *** Phase 1 - Check Blocks and Sizes > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 58 error 0) > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > wd0: Last time I say: interrupt timeout. Probably a portable PC. (status 50 error 1) > > Well, yes in fact it is a portable PC :-) It just seems to hang > at this point, even though there seems to be disk activity (like > it's continuously retrying). > > This machine has run fine under this kernel since I installed > 3.4-REL a month ago or so. This same problem happens with the > 3.4-REL GENERIC kernel. > > Before this, it was running fine with a 3.0++ kernel and never > had this problem after many power cycles. > > Is there any hope in getting this machine to work again?? > Howabout disabling DMA? Is there some way to do that? > > Thanks for any pointers.. > -Archie > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 20:44:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B8F37BF11; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:44:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09987; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:44:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38C48939.CD772736@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 21:44:41 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Eischen Cc: John Baldwin , "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Titus von Boxberg Subject: Re: Pthread blocking I/O References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daniel Eischen wrote: > > Some of the man pages and cancellation support came from OpenBSD > (David Leonard). The man page appears to have been written on > Jan 17, 1999 for OpenBSD. FreeBSD-current and -stable came much > later. Ah, that's what I saw. Thanks for the clarification. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 21:25:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from cytosine.dhs.org (cx272244-a.orng1.occa.home.com [24.1.177.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2455B37BE01; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:25:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bhishan@cytosine.dhs.org) Received: (from bhishan@localhost) by cytosine.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA09958; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:25:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bhishan) From: Bhishan Hemrajani Message-Id: <200003070525.VAA09958@cytosine.dhs.org> Subject: Re: Help: interrupt timeout In-Reply-To: from Chris Byrnes at "Mar 6, 2000 10:02:34 pm" To: Chris Byrnes Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:25:20 -0800 (PST) Cc: Archie Cobbs , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I sometimes have this problem with my pc. Usually, a good kick will get it to boot. Sometimes on laptops and stuff the hard drive cable gets loose or something. Or, it's a bad hard drive. Try giving is a shove. --bhishan > I've had the same problem. Most people have told me that I have to > replace the hard drive. > > I never had the problem before 3.4. Maybe that's just a coincidence, > though. > > > -- > Chris Byrnes (CB5820) > Network Engineer, High Stability Internet Services > http://www.highstability.com > > On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Archie Cobbs wrote: > > > My laptop running 3.4-RELEASE decided it doesn't want to boot. > > It was uncleanly shut down via the power switch by someone > > who thought they were shutting down a different machine. > > > > Now when it boots, running fsck gives this result: > > > > > chip0: rev 0x01 on pci0.0.0 > > > chip1: rev 0x02 on pci0.7.0 > > > ide_pci0: rev 0x01 on pci0.7.1 > > > ... > > > wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x3f7 irq 14 on isa > > > wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): > > > wd0: 6194MB (12685680 sectors), 13424 cyls, 15 heads, 63 S/T 512 B/S > > > wdc1 at 0x170-0x177 irq 15 on isa > > > wdc1: unit 0 (atapi): , removable, accel, dma, iordis > > > ... > > > # fsck / > > > *** /dev/rwd0s3a > > > *** Last Mounted on / > > > *** Root file system > > > *** Phase 1 - Check Blocks and Sizes > > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 58 error 0) > > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > > wd0: Last time I say: interrupt timeout. Probably a portable PC. (status 50 error 1) > > > > Well, yes in fact it is a portable PC :-) It just seems to hang > > at this point, even though there seems to be disk activity (like > > it's continuously retrying). > > > > This machine has run fine under this kernel since I installed > > 3.4-REL a month ago or so. This same problem happens with the > > 3.4-REL GENERIC kernel. > > > > Before this, it was running fine with a 3.0++ kernel and never > > had this problem after many power cycles. > > > > Is there any hope in getting this machine to work again?? > > Howabout disabling DMA? Is there some way to do that? > > > > Thanks for any pointers.. > > -Archie > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 21:54:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from wall.polstra.com (rtrwan160.accessone.com [206.213.115.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4121337B9F8 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:54:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: from vashon.polstra.com (vashon.polstra.com [206.213.73.13]) by wall.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA03453; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:54:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: (from jdp@localhost) by vashon.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA88875; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:54:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:54:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003070554.VAA88875@vashon.polstra.com> From: John Polstra To: jhix@mindspring.com Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-Reply-To: <20000305212148X.jhix@mindspring.com> References: <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org> <20000305204115E.jhix@mindspring.com> <38C33A03.A55DEFAF@gorean.org> <20000305212148X.jhix@mindspring.com> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <20000305212148X.jhix@mindspring.com>, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > Convince me that nothing like the following exists in the > ports framework and /usr/src and I'd be ok with a change > *after* 4.0 release (repeats himself) > > # Makefile.foo > > FOOVAR= > > . > . > . > > BARVAR=${FOOVAR} > > baz: > for i in ${BARVAR} ; do \ > ${BLAP} $$i ; \ > done > > > To me, changing it right now on the eve of -release > would be gratuitous. Later I would be fine with it. I agree that this is not the time to change it. But in the long run, if the ports framework is misusing /bin/sh then the framework needs to be fixed. We shouldn't let bugs there influence what we do with the shell. John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Disappointment is a good sign of basic intelligence." -- Chögyam Trungpa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 21:56: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fb00.eng00.mindspring.net (fb00.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.200.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 755C137BA85 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:56:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtjgd.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.206.13]) by fb00.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA24803; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 00:55:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA00726; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:00:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: cracauer@cons.org Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-Reply-To: <20000306084031.A35426@cons.org> References: <38C2B805.EA899C32@gorean.org> <200003060430.UAA85900@vashon.polstra.com> <20000306084031.A35426@cons.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000306220001L.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 22:00:01 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 27 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > is not a word at all, so it can't be expanded, so I think > bash is corrent to complain about a syntax error. Epsilon anyone? I really don't care (honestly) but a null word can be considered a word too! In yacc-like terms: wordlist: | wordlist WORD ; It doesn't really matter until one considers perverse abuses of a shell, such as those embedded in a Makefile somewhere. FreeBSD's shell (and ksh93) both perform "correctly" IMHO and wouldn't make the change. I'm also not likely to declare a Jihad against such a change either :-) It doesn't hurt anything the way it is and represents a better generalization (IMHO again). Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Mar 6 22:20:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (fb02.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.229.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E7337BE0B for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:20:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA22422 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 01:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtjgd.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.206.13]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA14106 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 01:20:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA00796 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:24:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-Reply-To: <200003070554.VAA88875@vashon.polstra.com> References: <38C33A03.A55DEFAF@gorean.org> <20000305212148X.jhix@mindspring.com> <200003070554.VAA88875@vashon.polstra.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000306222428U.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 22:24:28 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 11 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I agree that this is not the time to change it. But in the long run, > if the ports framework is misusing /bin/sh then the framework needs to > be fixed. We shouldn't let bugs there influence what we do with the > shell. Haven't been convinced yet they are bugs :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 0:19:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za (ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za [196.7.114.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D6A437BAEE; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 00:19:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johan@ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za) Received: by ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA65308; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:18:57 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from johan) From: Johan Kruger Reply-To: jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za Organization: Nanoteq To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Lodable kernel modules Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:16:15 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00030710185702.63483@ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am busy to convert two lkm's to kld's and having some problem with it. ----------------------------- KLD's on 3-STABLE and 4.0-CURRENT ----------------------------- The scenario is two lkm's ( now kld's ) which are loaded dependantly ( A and B ) I used to load them as : /sbin/modload -o /tmp/kern.sym ./A.o /sbin/modload -A /tmp/kern.sym ./B.o to keep the symbols available. The general layout of the modules used to look like the lkm examples they gave in /usr/share/examples/lkm/misc ( SPECIFICALLY misc one ) I couldn't get an example of a KLD looking like this one, there is only ......./kld/cdev and ..../kld/syscall. So i used syscall examples. Then i compiled the module B.ko with A.ko as a dependancy. ( I think i did , specked KMODDEPS= cspop_mod.ko which is module A in the Makefile. I am loading with kldload ./A and kldload ./B ( it's the only way i know of ). But now it still looks as if the two modules dont know about each other. Is there an example of something like this lying around ??? How do i (link) the symbols to the second KLD loaded ??? -- Johan Kruger ( B.Ing Electronic Engineering ) Developement Engineer Nanoteq PTA ( 012 6727000 ) e-mail : jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za e-mail : jk@nanoteq.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 1:50:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iclub.nsu.ru (iclub.nsu.ru [193.124.222.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD90137BF28 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 01:49:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru) Received: from localhost (fjoe@localhost) by iclub.nsu.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA51767; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:28:05 +0600 (NS) (envelope-from fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:28:05 +0600 (NS) From: Max Khon To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu Cc: iedowse@maths.tcd.ie, imp@village.org, jhix@mindspring.com, Doug@gorean.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-Reply-To: <1000306221330.AA36812.SM@nike.ins.cwru.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hi, there! On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Chet Ramey wrote: > > >: to > > >: > > >: sh_subdirs=${SUBDIRS}; for f in $$sh_subdirs ; do ... > > > > > > > >there's lots of other workarounds, from seeing if SUBDIRS is defined, > > >to using make's .foreach. > > > > Another option is: > > > > for f in $$empty_list ${SUBDIRS}; do ... > > > > where 'empty_list' is any undefined sh variable. > > Not bad, but will break if the shell is run with the `-u' option on > for some reason. man 1 sh: -u nounset Write a message to standard error when attempting to expand a variable that is not set, and if the shell is not interactive, exit immediately. (UNIMPLEMENTED) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :) /fjoe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 3:33:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D1DAE37BCE3 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 03:33:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from iedowse@maths.tcd.ie) Received: from walton.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 7 Mar 2000 11:33:18 +0000 (GMT) To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu Cc: imp@village.org, jhix@mindspring.com, Doug@gorean.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Mar 2000 17:13:30 EST." <1000306221330.AA36812.SM@nike.ins.cwru.edu> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 11:33:17 +0000 From: Ian Dowse Message-ID: <200003071133.aa35295@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <1000306221330.AA36812.SM@nike.ins.cwru.edu>, Chet Ramey writes: >> for f in $$empty_list ${SUBDIRS}; do ... >Not bad, but will break if the shell is run with the `-u' option on >for some reason. Ok, how about: for f in $$IFS ${SUBDIRS}; do ... Ian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 4:56:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from midget.dons.net.au (daniel.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.137.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224F137B9C4 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 04:56:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from darius@midget.dons.net.au) Received: (from darius@localhost) by midget.dons.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) id XAA27194; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:26:33 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from darius) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <00030710185702.63483@ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 23:26:32 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Johan Kruger Subject: RE: Lodable kernel modules Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Mar-00 Johan Kruger wrote: > But now it still looks as if the two modules dont know about each other. > Is there an example of something like this lying around ??? How do i > (link) > the symbols to the second KLD loaded ??? I don't see why this wouldn't work.. eg b is dependant on a? Try looking at the miibus code for network devices.. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 6:23:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailbox.reptiles.org (mailbox.reptiles.org [198.96.117.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8483B37B92E; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 06:23:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@reptiles.org) Received: from localhost (5991 bytes) by mailbox.reptiles.org via sendmail with P:stdio/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:22:53 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.108 1999-Sep-19 #3 built 1999-Oct-27) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:22:53 -0500 From: Jim Mercer To: ucd-snmp@ucd-snmp.ucdavis.edu, hackers@freebsd.org Cc: gpalmer@freebsd.org Subject: ipfw module for ucd-snmp and FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000307092252.E606@reptiles.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG here is a module that compiles into the ucd-snmp agent which allows access to a (at this time) limited selection of the data for all the ipfw rules. it can be fetched from: ftp://ftp.reptiles.org/pub/FreeBSD/other/ucdipfw-0.1.tar.gz here is the attached readme: ucd-snmp support for IPFW rules (as per FreeBSD) this module creates SNMP table access to the IPFW rules in two ways: ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWRules - meant to contain the actual text rules ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWTable - meant to contain the individual items in a rule the tables are indexed by the IPFW fw_number. see the attached snmptranslate for the currently implemented fields. i think the code is done reasonably well enough that adding more fields shouldn't be too hard. installing: - copy the UCD-IPFW-MIB.txt file to the location of your other MIB files - reconfigure and build ucd-snmp-4.1.1 with --with-mib-modules="misc/ipfw" - install new agent (snmpd) - restart snmpd caveats: - only tested on FreeBSD 3.4 - will need #ifdefs for other systems/versions - only handles a subset of the IPFW data (feel free to expand it) - for some reason COUNTER64 does not appear to be working in ucd-snmp, so the packet and byte counts are returned as strings. - there are tricky bits(tm) in the code which are likely not portable - added bytes32 and packets32, as 32 bit representations of the IPFW 64 bit values test the MIB as follows: host$ snmptranslate -M+. -mUCD-IPFW-MIB -Tp -IR ucdExperimental +--ucdExperimental(13) | +--ucdIPFWMIB(16) | +--IPFWRules(1) | | | +--IPFWRuleEntry(1) | | | +-- -R-- Integer Rulenum(1) | | Range: 0..65535 | +-- -R-- String Rule(2) | Textual Convention: DisplayString | Size: 0..255 | +--IPFWTable(2) | +--IPFWEntry(1) | +-- -R-- Integer Rulenum(1) | Range: 0..65535 +-- -R-- Integer TimeStamp(2) +-- -R-- String Bytes(3) | Textual Convention: DisplayString | Size: 0..255 +-- -R-- String Packets(4) | Textual Convention: DisplayString | Size: 0..255 +-- -R-- Counter Bytes32(5) +-- -R-- Counter Packets32(6) | +--SrcAddr(7) | +--SrcMask(8) | +--DstAddr(9) | +--DstMask(10) host$ snmptable localhost public enterprises.ucdavis.ucdExperimental.ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWRules SNMP table: enterprises.ucdavis.ucdExperimental.ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWRules.IPFWRuleEntry Rulenum Rule 100 output something like rule # (100) 200 output something like rule # (200) 300 output something like rule # (300) 400 output something like rule # (400) 65535 output something like rule # (65535) host$ snmptable localhost public enterprises.ucdavis.ucdExperimental.ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWTable SNMP table: enterprises.ucdavis.ucdExperimental.ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWTable.IPFWEntry Rulenum TimeStamp Bytes Packets SrcAddr SrcMask DstAddr DstMask 100 952361308 2089716268 6226536 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 198.96.117.32 255.255.255.240 200 952361308 3042231453 5781932 198.96.117.32 255.255.255.240 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 300 952361308 6348810543 42513136 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 400 952361308 17290068060 51863613 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 65535 952361308 37315413311 161421128 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 host$ snmpget localhost public enterprises.ucdavis.ucdExperimental.ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWRules.IPFWRuleEntry.Rulenum.100 enterprises.ucdavis.ucdExperimental.ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWRules.IPFWRuleEntry.Rulenum.100 = 100 host$ snmpget localhost public enterprises.ucdavis.ucdExperimental.ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWRules.IPFWRuleEntry.Rule.100 enterprises.ucdavis.ucdExperimental.ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWRules.IPFWRuleEntry.Rule.100 = output something like rule # (100) host$ snmpget localhost public enterprises.ucdavis.ucdExperimental.ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWTable.IPFWEntry.Rulenum.100 enterprises.ucdavis.ucdExperimental.ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWTable.IPFWEntry.Rulenum.100 = 100 host$ snmpget localhost public enterprises.ucdavis.ucdExperimental.ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWTable.IPFWEntry.Bytes.100 enterprises.ucdavis.ucdExperimental.ucdIPFWMIB.IPFWTable.IPFWEntry.Bytes.100 = 2091614459 using it with MRTG: i added two rules to ipfw: add 65000 count icmp from any to any in via de0 add 65001 count icmp from any to any out via de0 then used this config: Target[hostname-icmp-de0]: .1.3.6.1.4.1.2021.13.16.2.1.5.65000& .1.3.6.1.4.1.2021.13.16.2.1.5.65001 :public@hostname Title[hostname-icmp-de0]: hostname.reptiles.org (ICMP): de0 MaxBytes[hostname-icmp-de0]: 12500000 Options[hostname-icmp-de0]: bits PageTop[hostname-icmp-de0]:

ICMP Analysis for de0

System:hostname.reptiles.org
Interface:de0 (2)
-- [ Jim Mercer jim@reptiles.org +1 416 506-0654 ] [ Reptilian Research -- Longer Life through Colder Blood ] [ Don't be fooled by cheap Finnish imitations; BSD is the One True Code. ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 9:15:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ABA837C095; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:15:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 427817555; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31FC01D89; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:15:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:15:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "David E. Cross" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: rpc.lockd and xdr. In-Reply-To: <200003061712.MAA40849@cs.rpi.edu> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, David E. Cross wrote: :Version 2 of the lock manager is ready to be released. Amitha :says that it passes all of the tests in the suite posted by Drew (thanks :Drew). A noteable exception to this is on SGI where some lock requests :are never even received from the remote host. Also DOS sharing is not :yet complete. Any idea why this is? I only ask because: 12:12pm banshee /home/jamie %uname -aR IRIX64 banshee 6.5 6.5.5m 07151433 IP25 I have some PC's that I'm interested in putting FreeBSD on (other than my laptop) that would be on the network fulltime, and working NFS locking is really the only stumbling bock for me now. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 9:16:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78C937BBC9 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:16:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA79060; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:14:37 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:14:37 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Chris Costello Cc: Max Khon , Sheldon Hearn , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for In-Reply-To: <20000306090040.C4990@holly.calldei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Chris Costello wrote: > On Monday, March 06, 2000, Max Khon wrote: > > However, under Solaris 2.6: > > clone$uname -a > > SunOS clone 5.6 Generic_105181-13 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1-Engine > > clone$/bin/ksh > > clone$for i in ; do echo $i; done > > /bin/ksh: syntax error: `;' unexpected > > clone$ > > It is likely you are running the ksh88 version, which has > quite a few ``pre-POSIX'' features. Try this command to see > whether you have ksh88 or ksh93: > > echo ${.sh.version} > > If you have ksh93, you'll see something like > > Version M 1993-12-28 i > > Perhaps with a different letter at the end (`i' is the source > release). I believe you'll get an error or nothing if it's > ksh88. esc-M ctrl-V will give you version info, at least in ksh88. Neither HP nor Solaris appear to use ksh93. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 10:23:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B8D37BD5D for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:23:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rmukerji@execpc.com) Received: from earth.execpc.com (rmukerji@earth.execpc.com [169.207.16.1]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.1) id MAA24068; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:23:46 -0600 Received: (from rmukerji@localhost) by earth.execpc.com (8.9.0) id MAA07447; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:23:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:23:34 -0600 From: Arindum Mukerji To: David Scheidt Cc: Chris Costello , Max Khon , Sheldon Hearn , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: empty lists in for Message-ID: <20000307122334.D4506@earth.execpc.com> References: <20000306090040.C4990@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3us In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * David Scheidt (dscheidt@enteract.com) [000307 11:18]: > > esc-M ctrl-V will give you version info, at least in ksh88. Neither HP nor > Solaris appear to use ksh93. > Solaris' ksh93 implementation is /usr/dt/bin/dtksh (Version M-12/28/93d). -- Arindum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 10:34:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA1137B8AC; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:34:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (mvdhcp141236.americas.nokia.com [172.18.141.236]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18636; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:34:18 +0200 (EET) X-Authentication-Warning: mgw-x1.nokia.com: Host mvdhcp141236.americas.nokia.com [172.18.141.236] claimed to be nomad.yogotech.com Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03194; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:34:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:34:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200003071834.LAA03194@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Archie Cobbs Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Help: interrupt timeout In-Reply-To: <200003070357.TAA38892@bubba.whistle.com> References: <200003070357.TAA38892@bubba.whistle.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > My laptop running 3.4-RELEASE decided it doesn't want to boot. > It was uncleanly shut down via the power switch by someone > who thought they were shutting down a different machine. > > Now when it boots, running fsck gives this result: > > > chip0: rev 0x01 on pci0.0.0 > > chip1: rev 0x02 on pci0.7.0 > > ide_pci0: rev 0x01 on pci0.7.1 > > ... > > wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x3f7 irq 14 on isa > > wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): > > wd0: 6194MB (12685680 sectors), 13424 cyls, 15 heads, 63 S/T 512 B/S > > wdc1 at 0x170-0x177 irq 15 on isa > > wdc1: unit 0 (atapi): , removable, accel, dma, iordis > > ... > > # fsck / > > *** /dev/rwd0s3a > > *** Last Mounted on / > > *** Root file system > > *** Phase 1 - Check Blocks and Sizes > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 58 error 0) > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > wd0: interrupt timeout (status 50 error 1) > > wd0: wdtimeout DMA status 4 > > wd0: Last time I say: interrupt timeout. Probably a portable PC. (status 50 error 1) > > Well, yes in fact it is a portable PC :-) It just seems to hang > at this point, even though there seems to be disk activity (like > it's continuously retrying). Your disk went bad. It is probably unrelated to FreeBSD, but it may have occurred due to a bad interaction when the computer shut down. I had this happen on an old Thinkpad (486/25), and I was never able to get it to work reliably every since, since the bad spot on the disk kept getting hit with fsck. You may not have seen it prior because fsck never was run on the disk since it was shutdown gracefully, hence the bad sector was never accessed. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 10:36:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bubba.whistle.com (bubba.whistle.com [207.76.205.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D4137BD5D; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:36:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id KAA41887; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:34:41 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <200003071834.KAA41887@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) In-Reply-To: <20000305084943.8649A36AB@hcswork.hcs.de> from Hellmuth Michaelis at "Mar 5, 2000 09:49:43 am" To: hm@hcs.de Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:34:40 -0800 (PST) Cc: julian@elischer.org (Julian Elischer), nox@jelal.kn-bremen.de, kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hellmuth Michaelis writes: > > to add a negraph interface to the B channels should be quite easy. > > If you need help I can prbably almost do most of it.. > > Its already in the development sources (Archie had a look at it already) > and it works with mppd. It was really quite easy, although if Archies > daemonnews article had been available at that time i wrote it, it would > have been even easier :-) > > > when this is done the netgraph PPP nodes (which can support > > these compression types will be usable. > > In the mppd i worked with (looking ... mpd3.0b1/mpd3.0b2) deflate was not > present, predictor was not usable, bsd was not present. There were just > hooks for M$ and stac (which you can not release obviously). > > Currently i'm using ppp instead of mppd mostly just because it supports > deflate compression. I had a look at both mppd and ppp to see how the > mentioned free stac compression would be integrateable and found them > both similar, given they both come from iijppp. It looks like if it were > a good idea if Brian and Archie would merge both to get the best features > from each one into a common product ;-) Here is my list of things that 'should be done' at some point: 1. Implement the various PPP compression types as netgraph nodes, starting with Deflate, then maybe predictor-1, STAC (if we can do it legally), and MPPC (same thing). Once these exist, then mpd 'adapters' will have to be written for each one -- these are easy, they just decode the config-req's. I already have code for MPPC/MPPE, minus the proprietary STAC code and the patented RC4 algorithm, and am going to submit it after 4.0-REL as soon as somebody submits an RC4 implementation to /sys/crypto in the international repository. Mpd-3.x already has support for MPPC/MPPE. This is available on our ftp site.. ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/archie/netgraph/mppc.tgz 2. We should come up with a 'standard' netgraph control message API for an ISDN basic rate interface, and have i4b implement this interface. Then mpd/ppp/etc can "know" this interface and therefore work automatically with any ISDN BRI device. Here is the interface that we use at Whistle: ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/archie/netgraph/ng_tn.h (note: the switch types are #defined in another file but include all of the usual suspects: ETSI, NI-1, AT&T, DMS100, etc.) -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 10:38: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bubba.whistle.com (bubba.whistle.com [207.76.205.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A3C37BFFB; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:38:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id KAA41919; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:36:42 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <200003071836.KAA41919@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) In-Reply-To: <20000305190214.B16881@saturn.kn-bremen.de> from Juergen Lock at "Mar 5, 2000 07:02:15 pm" To: nox@jelal.kn-bremen.de (Juergen Lock) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:36:42 -0800 (PST) Cc: julian@elischer.org (Julian Elischer), hm@hcs.de, kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Juergen Lock writes: > > when this is done the netgraph PPP nodes (which can support > > these compression types will be usable. > > They could, but they don't yet, right? :) > > Maybe it still should be added to ijppp first cause debugging user > processes is easier than the kernel... and at the usual isdn bri > speeds a user process should still be pretty fast enough. That makes perfect sense.. just be sure to write the code so that it's easily ported to the kernel.. the main issues being mbuf's.. for that it's probably eassiest to just punt and copy each packet into a contiguous buffer. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 11:36:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mta.scient.com (mta.Scient.COM [208.29.209.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C0B437BDA0 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:36:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cnielsen@scient.com) Received: (qmail 22884 invoked from network); 7 Mar 2000 19:36:08 -0000 Received: from tep01-sfo.scient.com (HELO ender.scient.com) (208.29.209.9) by mta.scient.com with SMTP; 7 Mar 2000 19:36:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 696 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Mar 2000 06:34:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14532.41736.837993.704247@ender.scient.com> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:34:48 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Nielsen To: kc5vdj@swbell.net Cc: mbac@nyct.net (Michael Bacarella), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copy-on-write filesystem In-Reply-To: <200003040245.UAA10031@ppp-207-193-2-159.kscymo.swbell.net> References: <200003040245.UAA10031@ppp-207-193-2-159.kscymo.swbell.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 9) "Canyonlands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: cnielsen@pobox.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Bryant writes: Jim> This is not a microsoft innovation, actually, I believe it Jim> was a VMS innovation. It's called a generational filesystem. Jim> the original is stored, and later generations of the file are Jim> stored as diffs. IIRC, plan9 has something similar with its three-tier, hierarchical filesystem, except that it's not diffs that are copied, it's blocks that have been written since the last dump. See http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/doc/9.html for more details. -- Christopher Nielsen (enkhyl|cnielsen)@pobox.com Enkhyl on IRC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 12:52:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from usc.edu (usc.edu [128.125.253.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183C537B54C for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:52:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from walker@usc.edu) Received: from skat.usc.edu (walker@skat.usc.edu [128.125.253.131]) by usc.edu (8.9.3.1/8.9.3/usc) with ESMTP id MAA14484; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:51:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (walker@localhost) by skat.usc.edu (8.9.3.1/8.9.3/usc) with ESMTP id MAA26999; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:51:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:51:03 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Walker To: "Louis A. Mamakos" Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, kc5vdj@swbell.net, jbryant@ppp-207-193-2-159.kscymo.swbell.net, mbac@nyct.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copy-on-write filesystem In-Reply-To: <200003051405.JAA17903@whizzo.transsys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > Imagine: cp file file2, file and file2 reference the same exact blocks, > > > > but modified chunks of file2 would be given their own private blocks. > > > > > > This is not a microsoft innovation, actually, I believe it was a VMS > > > innovation. It's called a generational filesystem. the original is > > > stored, and later generations of the file are stored as diffs. > > > > As far as I know, VMS simply stores whole files - no diffs involved. Now > > if you go back to for instance Univac 1100 and the Exec-8 OS (I suppose > > it is OS-1100 now), you'll find a system that *did* store the diffs. In > > the form of punched card images! :-) > > Well, not really. That was mostly an application convention rather than > being done in the OS. And that all the applications wanted to use > SIR$ SDF to read program file elements was just a coincidence :-) > > The cools part of Exec-8 that we still need (we already have sparse > files) are the virtual filesystem bits. E.g., unloaded files. People > have been struggling with multi-level storage architectures on UNIX > for years, while this was pretty much a solved problem on these 1's > complement 36 bit dinosars 30 years ago. > > (The notion was that if you didn't use a file in a while, the system > would release the data blocks, and mark the file as "unloaded." When > you "assigned"/opened one of these files, a system process would cause > the current backup tape to be loaded, and the file restore. When you > began to get low on disk space, likeway a systen process would start, > and sort all files based on their priority for being unloaded - based > on last reference time, do we have a current backup, who created it, etc. > It would then begin to release the data blocks until you acheived a > configured threshold.) > > louie Unitree does something like this for UNIX with auto migration to tape. See http://www.unitree.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 15: 0:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from wall.polstra.com (rtrwan160.accessone.com [206.213.115.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DFAA37C1BE for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:00:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: from vashon.polstra.com (vashon.polstra.com [206.213.73.13]) by wall.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07500; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:00:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Received: (from jdp@localhost) by vashon.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA90662; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:00:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@polstra.com) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:00:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003072300.PAA90662@vashon.polstra.com> From: John Polstra To: archie@whistle.com Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) In-Reply-To: <200003071834.KAA41887@bubba.whistle.com> References: <200003071834.KAA41887@bubba.whistle.com> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <200003071834.KAA41887@bubba.whistle.com>, Archie Cobbs wrote: > I already have code for MPPC/MPPE, minus the proprietary STAC > code and the patented RC4 algorithm, I have read in several places that only the name "RC4" is trademarked, and that the algorithm itself is not patented. Is that not the case? John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Disappointment is a good sign of basic intelligence." -- Chögyam Trungpa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 15: 8:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bubba.whistle.com (bubba.whistle.com [207.76.205.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872A837C17E; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:08:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA49650; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:08:31 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <200003072308.PAA49650@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) In-Reply-To: <200003072300.PAA90662@vashon.polstra.com> from John Polstra at "Mar 7, 2000 03:00:09 pm" To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:08:30 -0800 (PST) Cc: jdp@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Polstra writes: > > I already have code for MPPC/MPPE, minus the proprietary STAC > > code and the patented RC4 algorithm, > > I have read in several places that only the name "RC4" is trademarked, > and that the algorithm itself is not patented. Is that not the case? Oops, my mistake.. you are correct as far as I know. What I should have said was "the non-exportable RC4 algorithm" because (also AFAIK) it's not exportable so we can't check it into freefall. We *can* check it in to the international repository but I don't know if anyone has done that yet, or if so what the header file looks like. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 16:22: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from celery.dragondata.com (celery.dragondata.com [205.253.12.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5965237B970 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:22:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toasty@celery.dragondata.com) Received: (from toasty@localhost) by celery.dragondata.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA94121 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:22:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from toasty) From: Kevin Day Message-Id: <200003080022.SAA94121@celery.dragondata.com> Subject: SEGV in memInit To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:22:04 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We're having a problem where very very rarely we get a segfault on exec of something, and I finally caught it: # gdb menu GNU gdb 4.18 Copyright 1998 Free Software Foundation, Inc. GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and you are welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain conditions. Type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB. Type "show warranty" for details. This GDB was configured as "i386-unknown-freebsd"... (gdb) run Starting program: /t/menu/menu Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 0x281c662d in ?? () (gdb) bt #0 0x281c662d in ?? () #1 0x8075b1d in memLog (format=0x80970bb "Memory system started\n") at mem.cpp:94 #2 0x8075dcc in memInit () at mem.cpp:186 #3 0x8075e23 in memAlloc (size=160, function=0x0, file=0x8097321 "new()", line=0) at mem.cpp:208 #4 0x80764a6 in __builtin_new (size=160) at mem.cpp:503 #5 0x8077e27 in __builtin_vec_new () #6 0x281125cd in ?? () #7 0x28112109 in ?? () #8 0x280eaca4 in ?? () #9 0x280e9b91 in ?? () #10 0x2809a47c in ?? () #11 0x2809a328 in ?? () Any idea what causes this? I've got a core if necessary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 16:25:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from celery.dragondata.com (celery.dragondata.com [205.253.12.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE32437B584 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:25:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toasty@celery.dragondata.com) Received: (from toasty@localhost) by celery.dragondata.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA94133; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:25:38 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from toasty) From: Kevin Day Message-Id: <200003080025.SAA94133@celery.dragondata.com> Subject: Re: SEGV in memInit To: toasty@dragondata.com (Kevin Day) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:25:38 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003080022.SAA94121@celery.dragondata.com> from "Kevin Day" at Mar 07, 2000 06:22:04 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > We're having a problem where very very rarely we get a segfault on exec of > something, and I finally caught it: > Here's a better backtrace, sorry. :) Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 0x2813862d in vfprintf () from /usr/lib/libc.so.3 (gdb) bt #0 0x2813862d in vfprintf () from /usr/lib/libc.so.3 #1 0x80759d1 in memLog (format=0x8096bcf "Memory system started\n") at mem.cpp:94 #2 0x8075c80 in memInit () at mem.cpp:186 #3 0x8075cd7 in memAlloc (size=20, function=0x80967c3 "enum mpn_error_t mpnArray_Create(void **, int, int)", file=0x80967bb "array.c", line=64) at mem.cpp:208 #4 0x8075031 in __mpnMem_Alloc__FPPvUiPCcT2Ui (pptr=0xbfbfdc1c, size=20, func=0x80967c3 "enum mpn_error_t mpnArray_Create(void **, int, int)", file=0x80967bb "array.c", line=64) at memory.c:118 #5 0x8072db3 in mpnArray_Create__FPPvii (array=0x809a260, chunkSize=4, stepSize=16) at array.c:64 #6 0x806d3fa in DBGenericTable::init (this=0x809a258, stepsize=16) at dbtable.cpp:128 #7 0x806d076 in DBGenericTable::DBGenericTable (this=0x809a258) at dbtable.cpp:13 #8 0x806de75 in DBTable::DBTable (this=0x809a258) at mpnda.h:143 #9 0x806d019 in TourTable::TourTable (this=0x809a258) at mpnda.h:208 #10 0x806d005 in global constructors keyed to TournamentList () at TourTable.cpp:13 #11 0x804a6bc in _start () #12 0x8049de1 in _init () Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 16:27:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from celery.dragondata.com (celery.dragondata.com [205.253.12.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5285A37C176 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:27:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toasty@celery.dragondata.com) Received: (from toasty@localhost) by celery.dragondata.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA94146; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:27:22 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from toasty) From: Kevin Day Message-Id: <200003080027.SAA94146@celery.dragondata.com> Subject: Re: SEGV in memInit (ignore all of this) To: toasty@dragondata.com (Kevin Day) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:27:22 -0600 (CST) Cc: toasty@dragondata.com (Kevin Day), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003080025.SAA94133@celery.dragondata.com> from "Kevin Day" at Mar 07, 2000 06:25:38 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > > > > We're having a problem where very very rarely we get a segfault on exec of > > something, and I finally caught it: > > Ack... Ignore this whole thread... The first backtrace looked like builtin_new was causing this... someone replaced my new/delete in this, and didn't tell me. Bad day. :) Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 16:42: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4292E37B543 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:42:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id QAA01777; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:42:02 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id QAA13337; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:42:02 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id RAA19171; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:41:57 -0700 Message-ID: <38C5A1DF.664AD1DB@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 17:42:07 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Polstra Cc: archie@whistle.com Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) References: <200003071834.KAA41887@bubba.whistle.com> <200003072300.PAA90662@vashon.polstra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Polstra wrote: > > In article <200003071834.KAA41887@bubba.whistle.com>, > Archie Cobbs wrote: > > > I already have code for MPPC/MPPE, minus the proprietary STAC > > code and the patented RC4 algorithm, > > I have read in several places that only the name "RC4" is trademarked, > and that the algorithm itself is not patented. Is that not the case? I thought RC4 was trademarked by Honda in the USA??? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 17:16:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5420637B519 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:16:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lwh@pathcom.com) Received: from dial-0646.tor.pathcom.com (dial-0646.tor.pathcom.com [216.249.2.138]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18652 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:16:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:16:02 -0500 (EST) From: Luke Hollins Reply-To: lwh@pathcom.com To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was using sysinstall the other day and hit Auto defaults just to see what it suggested, and got this on a 20GB disk: wd0s1a / 50MB UFS Y wd0s1b swap 651MB SWAP wd0s1e /var 20MB UFS Y wd0s1f /usr 18849MB UFS Y the /var one struck me as really bad just thought i would mention it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 17:33:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E65C37B543; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:33:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13427; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:05:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:05:11 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Luke Hollins Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning Message-ID: <20000307180510.P14279@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from lwh@pathcom.com on Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 08:16:02PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Luke Hollins [000307 17:49] wrote: > I was using sysinstall the other day and hit Auto defaults just to see > what it suggested, and got this on a 20GB disk: > wd0s1a / 50MB UFS Y > wd0s1b swap 651MB SWAP > wd0s1e /var 20MB UFS Y > wd0s1f /usr 18849MB UFS Y > > the /var one struck me as really bad just thought i would mention it I agree somewhat, Jordan what do you think about making / and /var take a minimum and maximum value where the norm is some percentage of total disk space as long as it falls between 40-120 for / and 20-300 for /var ? Just an idea. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 17:45:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from usc.edu (usc.edu [128.125.253.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE32537B5F1 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:45:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from walker@usc.edu) Received: from skat.usc.edu (walker@skat.usc.edu [128.125.253.131]) by usc.edu (8.9.3.1/8.9.3/usc) with ESMTP id RAA29917; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (walker@localhost) by skat.usc.edu (8.9.3.1/8.9.3/usc) with ESMTP id RAA10256; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:45:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 17:45:12 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Walker To: Luke Hollins Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I was using sysinstall the other day and hit Auto defaults just to see > what it suggested, and got this on a 20GB disk: > wd0s1a / 50MB UFS Y > wd0s1b swap 651MB SWAP > wd0s1e /var 20MB UFS Y > wd0s1f /usr 18849MB UFS Y > > the /var one struck me as really bad just thought i would mention it How about adding a /usr/local for bigger disks to break up dumps? amanda only supports dumping to one tape. So using dump on filesystems over 7/14G can cause problems. Not everyone has 20/40 plus tapes and images don't compress much. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 18:33:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fb00.eng00.mindspring.net (fb00.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.200.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 646EE37B88D for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:33:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from edgold@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-37kau0a.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.120.10]) by fb00.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06898 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:33:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38C5BAD7.7AA9E6A3@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 21:28:40 -0500 From: Edward Gold X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Walker wrote: > > I was using sysinstall the other day and hit Auto defaults just to see > > what it suggested, and got this on a 20GB disk: > > wd0s1a / 50MB UFS Y > > wd0s1b swap 651MB SWAP > > wd0s1e /var 20MB UFS Y > > wd0s1f /usr 18849MB UFS Y > > > > the /var one struck me as really bad just thought i would mention it > > How about adding a /usr/local for bigger disks to break up dumps? > amanda only supports dumping to one tape. So using dump on > filesystems over 7/14G can cause problems. Not everyone has 20/40 > plus tapes and images don't compress much. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message I was actually planning a near-complete rewrite of sysinstall anyway! How about everyone throwing in whatever suggestions you would like ( about anything regarding sysinstall ), and I will try to incorporate them!? The things I am specifically going to focus on are: 1. depretzel the GUI from the logic and modularize. 2. implement scripting capability so we can control the user's path through the various menus from a script file of sorts. 3. possibly make stand alone post-install GUI based utilities for fdisk/disklabel and other configuration functions. Ed To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 19: 6:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1459137B5D6 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:06:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA99235; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 04:06:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 04:06:24 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200003080306.EAA99235@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-hackers In-Reply-To: <8a49s1$gdo$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Luke Hollins wrote in list.freebsd-hackers: > I was using sysinstall the other day and hit Auto defaults just to see > what it suggested, and got this on a 20GB disk: > wd0s1a / 50MB UFS Y > wd0s1b swap 651MB SWAP > wd0s1e /var 20MB UFS Y > wd0s1f /usr 18849MB UFS Y > > the /var one struck me as really bad just thought i would mention it I think 20 Mbyte is perfectly OK. More than that would be a waste of diskspace on a workstation. And if you're installing a server, you probably don't use the "A"uto defaults anyway. IMO one shouldn't try to put too much pseudo intelligence into that auto partitioning. Or if you do, then do it _right_ and let the user choose between auto defaults for a workstation, for a user shell box, for a small webserver, for a big web- server, for a newsserver, and while we're at it, configure an appropriately sized MFS for /tmp, etc. ... This is a can of worms. Bottom line: I think it should stay the way it is now. :-) Just my 0.02 Euro. Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 19:41:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D419337B5A1 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:41:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11606 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:40:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Mar 2000 04:06:24 +0100." <200003080306.EAA99235@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 19:40:37 -0800 Message-ID: <11603.952486837@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Bottom line: I think it should stay the way it is now. :-) And since I agree, I suspect it will. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 20:11: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mauibuilt.com (mauibuilt.com [205.166.249.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9318837B52E; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:10:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@mauibuilt.com) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by mauibuilt.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA27681; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:20:48 -1000 (HST) (envelope-from freebsd) From: FreeBSD MAIL Message-Id: <200003080420.SAA27681@mauibuilt.com> Subject: Intel 810/BookPC To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:20:46 -1000 (HST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sorry if this is a repost but I didnt see it come throug yet and my mail was screwed up. I am working with a BookPC whith an intel 810 all in one chipset. I was wondering if there was planned support for the sound and if someone has heard anyting about the Xfree86 (linux) LKM being ported to FreeBSD. Thanks in advance RP puga@mauibuilt.com PS I have heard that the i810 chipset isnt so hot but concider what you get for a wholesale cost of $145.00 Case, MB, 52X-cdrom, 1.44flp, 8meg AGP video, 10/100NIC, onboard sound, 56k Winmodem (crap but consistant enough crap may be worthy of driver) TV out and S-Video out, keyboard 3 button mouse speakers and power supply. add RAM, HD and CPU (up to 550mhz) and you have a nifty work station. just a thought....... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 21: 3:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF72037B832 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:03:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@orion.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19210 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:03:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:03:13 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning Message-ID: <20000307210313.A14041@orion.ac.hmc.edu> References: <8a49s1$gdo$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200003080306.EAA99235@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: <200003080306.EAA99235@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de>; from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de on Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 04:06:24AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 04:06:24AM +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Luke Hollins wrote in list.freebsd-hackers: > > I was using sysinstall the other day and hit Auto defaults just to see > > what it suggested, and got this on a 20GB disk: > > wd0s1a / 50MB UFS Y > > wd0s1b swap 651MB SWAP > > wd0s1e /var 20MB UFS Y > > wd0s1f /usr 18849MB UFS Y > > > > the /var one struck me as really bad just thought i would mention it > > I think 20 Mbyte is perfectly OK. More than that would be a > waste of diskspace on a workstation. And if you're installing > a server, you probably don't use the "A"uto defaults anyway. I disagree. It would be true if people only processed text documents and sent e-mail through /var/spool, but today there are office suites to contend with. A 20Mbyte print job is not all that unreasionable for a large Powerpoint presentation, especialy if it has a background image. I once printed one that was averaging about 1MB per page and was nearly 30 pages long. It's even worse if you have to rasterize the thing localy with ghostscript. A full page 600dpi image is freaking huge. We've got a native office suite now, it would be nice it it worked well by default. (While I'm at it, the default print spool file size limit, 1MB, is rediculous.) -- Brooks -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 21:14:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05EA37B5AA for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:14:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA60513; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:14:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:14:34 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200003080514.VAA60513@apollo.backplane.com> To: Brooks Davis Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning References: <8a49s1$gdo$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200003080306.EAA99235@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000307210313.A14041@orion.ac.hmc.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 04:06:24AM +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: :> Luke Hollins wrote in list.freebsd-hackers: :> > I was using sysinstall the other day and hit Auto defaults just to see :> > what it suggested, and got this on a 20GB disk: :> > wd0s1a / 50MB UFS Y :> > wd0s1b swap 651MB SWAP :> > wd0s1e /var 20MB UFS Y :> > wd0s1f /usr 18849MB UFS Y :> > :> > the /var one struck me as really bad just thought i would mention it :> :> I think 20 Mbyte is perfectly OK. More than that would be a :> waste of diskspace on a workstation. And if you're installing :> a server, you probably don't use the "A"uto defaults anyway. : :I disagree. It would be true if people only processed text documents :and sent e-mail through /var/spool, but today there are office suites to :contend with. A 20Mbyte print job is not all that unreasionable for a :large Powerpoint presentation, especialy if it has a background image. :I once printed one that was averaging about 1MB per page and was nearly :30 pages long. It's even worse if you have to rasterize the thing :localy with ghostscript. A full page 600dpi image is freaking huge. :We've got a native office suite now, it would be nice it it worked well :by default. (While I'm at it, the default print spool file size limit, :1MB, is rediculous.) : :-- Brooks I'll tell ya, I *never* use the auto-defaults. They are way too tiny. A 50MB root barely fits the kernel and you can run it out of space doing an installworld. I almost always do this: / 128M swap (double system memory at a minimum) /var 128M /var/tmp 128M /usr (at least 1G) /u1 (remainder, if it's a big disk) /tmp softlink to /var/tmp (because having two tmp's is stupid) /home softlink to /u1/home If I need a big spool for mail I usually create a /var/spool partition. Never create a /var/spool/mail or /var/spool/mqueue partition, since a directory as a mount point cannot be easily shrunk since you can't tar-copy/rm-rf/rename it. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Mar 7 23:18: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za (ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za [196.7.114.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4142437C2A9 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:18:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johan@ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za) Received: by ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA68180; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:17:02 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from johan) From: Johan Kruger Reply-To: jkruger@oskar.nanoteq.co.za Organization: Nanoteq To: Boris Popov Subject: Re: Lodable kernel modules Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:07:39 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: In-Reply-To: Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00030809170203.63483@ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi there, sorry to bother you, just want to as two quick questions .. I looked as examples at ncp.ko and nwfs.ko ??? 1) If i look in the compiled nwfs directory, what is the __hack_file for ??, and the ncp file ( not the ncp.ko ) in the nwfs directory ?? ( I am actually able to load this ncp file, which is way shorter than the real ncp.ko in the ncp directory. 2) Why could'nt i load the ncp.ko in the ncp directory ( Exec format error ) unless i removed the ipx support from the Makefile ?? > See sys/modules/ncp and sys/modules/nwfs for an example. ncp.ko > module exports symbols which is used in the nwfs.ko module. > > -- > Boris Popov > http://www.butya.kz/~bp/ -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 0:37:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35CA37BF57; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 00:37:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from nlsys.demon.co.uk ([158.152.125.33] helo=herring.nlsystems.com) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12SbyE-000Iyt-0W; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:37:32 +0000 Received: from salmon.nlsystems.com (salmon.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.3]) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA33259; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:43:11 GMT (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:39:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Doug Rabson To: FreeBSD MAIL Cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Intel 810/BookPC In-Reply-To: <200003080420.SAA27681@mauibuilt.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 7 Mar 2000, FreeBSD MAIL wrote: > Sorry if this is a repost but I didnt see it come throug yet and my mail was > screwed up. > > I am working with a BookPC whith an intel 810 all in one chipset. > > I was wondering if there was planned support for the sound and if someone > has heard anyting about the Xfree86 (linux) LKM being ported to FreeBSD. I have been working on something which should be adequate for the purposes of XFree86-4.0. I've been distracted by having to ship some software at work but I hope to get back to this soon, probably next week. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 442 9037 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 0:45: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from linux.ssc.nsu.ru (linux.ssc.nsu.ru [193.124.219.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 94EE337B5F5 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 00:44:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru) Received: (qmail 16897 invoked from network); 8 Mar 2000 08:44:32 -0000 Received: from inet.ssc.nsu.ru (62.76.110.12) by hub.freebsd.org with SMTP; 8 Mar 2000 08:44:32 -0000 Received: from localhost (danfe@localhost) by inet.ssc.nsu.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27263 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:44:10 +0600 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:44:10 +0600 (NOVT) From: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: doscmd under FreeBSD 4.0 20000214-SNAP Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! There's a problem. I'm trying to run ${SUBJ} unsing MSDOS 6.22 bootable diskette, with .doscmdrc file from man doscmd(1). That's what I get: Unknown interrupt 15 function 4101 Unknown interrupt 15 function 8796 doscmd: fatal error int16 func 0x1 only supported in X mode If I try to run 'doscmd -r', I get: mmap: Invalid argument Any ideas? I have no X installed, btw. I'll try MSDOS 6.0, but I don't think version really matters at this early stage :-( P.S. and what happened to that "VM86" option in kernel? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 1:43:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hermes.research.kpn.com (hermes.research.kpn.com [139.63.192.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A52637B5A3 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 01:43:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from K.J.Koster@kpn.com) Received: from l04.research.kpn.com (l04.research.kpn.com [139.63.192.204]) by research.kpn.com (PMDF V5.2-31 #35196) with ESMTP id <01JMSCVV93SS000WQ8@research.kpn.com> for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:43:23 +0100 Received: by l04.research.kpn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <19A086K2>; Wed, 08 Mar 2000 10:43:22 +0100 Content-return: allowed Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 10:43:12 +0100 From: "Koster, K.J." Subject: RE: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning To: 'Edward Gold' , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313957@l04.research.kpn.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I was actually planning a near-complete rewrite of sysinstall > anyway! How > about everyone throwing in whatever suggestions you would like ( about > anything regarding sysinstall ), and I will try to incorporate them!? > Well, I've been toying with ideas on how to integrate the disklabel and the filesystem item. Now you have to allocate FreeBSD space first, and partition it later. If (like me) you're working with several disks, this is a pain. You are bound to have to switch back and forth. For complete newbies, having "two formatting menus" seems weird too, and may be confusing. (I'm quoting one of my housemates). How about turning away from the raw hardware view a little bit (but no too much) and work like you would do on the piece of scrap paper you use while running sysinstall: "hum, I need 35Mb for /, let's see where there's room. Ah, I can place it on da0s1a." "Good, now I need 2x64Mb swap, one on da0s1b, and one on da1s1b", etc... I find it a little hard to put into words, but if anyone is interested I can clean up my idea and clarify it. Also, I'd really love to be able to configure ccd stripe sets from sysinstall, but I would not be surprised if that was too much to ask. :) Kees Jan ============================================== You are only young once, but you can stay immature all your life To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 2:37:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from KIRA.TEAM400.IE (kira.team400.ie [193.120.161.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7326237B5F5; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 02:37:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from niall@pobox.com) Received: from trinityexch.team400.ie ("port 4892"@[193.120.161.222]) by kira.team400.ie (PMDF V5.2-32 #42663) with ESMTP id <01JMSCPZYU1G004L9G@kira.team400.ie>; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:38:39 BST Received: from pobox.com (193.120.161.91 [193.120.161.91]) by trinityexch.team400.ie with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) id GMSTD4W1; Wed, 08 Mar 2000 10:32:35 +0000 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 10:40:58 +0000 From: Niall Smart Subject: rtld breakage still in -stable, or is it me? To: current@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Message-id: <38C62E3A.A3075967@pobox.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi A few days ago I upgraded by system to -stable from 3.2-RELEASE and several programs which use dlopen stopped working, most notably mod_perl. For example: # apachectl start [Wed Mar 8 10:19:35 2000] [error] Can't load '/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.005/i386-freebsd/auto/Time/HiRes/HiRes.so' for module Time::HiRes: /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.005/i386-freebsd/auto/Time/HiRes/HiRes.so: Undefined symbol "PL_stack_max" at /usr/libdata/perl/5.00503/DynaLoader.pm line 169. at /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.005/HTML/Mason/Interp.pm line 25 BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.005/HTML/Mason.pm line 9. BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at /usr/local/web/mason/handler.pl line 3. Syntax error on line 1204 of /usr/local/apache-1.3/conf/httpd.conf: Can't load '/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.005/i386-freebsd/auto/Time/HiRes/HiRes.so' for module Time::HiRes: /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.005/i386-freebsd/auto/Time/HiRes/HiRes.so: Undefined symbol "PL_stack_max" at /usr/libdata/perl/5.00503/DynaLoader.pm line 169. at /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.005/HTML/Mason/Interp.pm line 25 BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.005/HTML/Mason.pm line 9. BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at /usr/local/web/mason/handler.pl line 3. /usr/local/apache-1.3/bin/apachectl start: httpd could not be started Furthermore: niall% nm /usr/lib/libperl.so | grep PL_stack_max 00090630 B PL_stack_max The Time::HiRes module loads fine when I invoke perl from the command line. It appears I amn't the only one having this problem: http://x42.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=582680524 http://x30.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=591070824 http://x31.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=573655265 http://x31.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=565253105 A recompile of apache etc did not solve the problem, neither did a make world yesterday Any hints? Regards, Niall -- Niall Smart email: niall.smart@ebeon.com phone: (087) 8052390 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 3: 7:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2C037B610 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 03:07:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA13245; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 03:06:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Koster, K.J." Cc: "'Edward Gold'" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Mar 2000 10:43:12 +0100." <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313957@l04.research.kpn.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 03:06:00 -0800 Message-ID: <13242.952513560@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > For complete newbies, having "two formatting menus" seems weird too, and may > be confusing. (I'm quoting one of my housemates). For complete newbies, you really only want to ask one question up-front: "Do you want to use all available disk space for FreeBSD?" If the answer is yes, you go do the rest on their behalf without asking anything more than, perhaps, what kind of installation they want (desktop, server, etc). If the answer is no, then you get into the more detailed questions. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 3: 7:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hcshh.hcs.de (hcshh.hcs.de [194.123.40.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EC89437B590; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 03:07:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hm@hcs.de) Received: from hcswork.hcs.de([192.76.124.5]) (3145 bytes) by hcshh.hcs.de via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:06:58 +0100 (CET) (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1 built 1998-Dec-11) Received: by hcswork.hcs.de (Postfix, from userid 200) id 3674A3A34; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:06:49 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) In-Reply-To: <200003071834.KAA41887@bubba.whistle.com> from Archie Cobbs at "Mar 7, 0 10:34:40 am" To: archie@whistle.com (Archie Cobbs) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:06:48 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: hm@hcs.de Organization: HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2195 Message-Id: <20000308110649.3674A3A34@hcswork.hcs.de> From: hm@hcs.de (Hellmuth Michaelis) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG (CC: stripped) From the keyboard of Archie Cobbs: > Here is my list of things that 'should be done' at some point: > > 1. Implement the various PPP compression types as netgraph nodes, > starting with Deflate, then maybe predictor-1, STAC (if we can > do it legally), and MPPC (same thing). Sounds good. The link in the original mail points to a Linux (GPL) implementation of the STAC compression. Since i was under the impression that STAC is patented, i've contacted the author about this and it seems that STAC either did not notice his implementation, does not care about it, or that it is legal to reimplement it here in Germany or Europe. Perhaps it might be possible to use this somehow, or at least provide hooks to use it ... > 2. We should come up with a 'standard' netgraph control message > API for an ISDN basic rate interface, and have i4b implement > this interface. Then mpd/ppp/etc can "know" this interface > and therefore work automatically with any ISDN BRI device. > Here is the interface that we use at Whistle: > ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/archie/netgraph/ng_tn.h > (note: the switch types are #defined in another file but include > all of the usual suspects: ETSI, NI-1, AT&T, DMS100, etc.) The problem here is, that the Whistle ISDN stack has a fundamentally different view of the world than i4b has :-) As far as i understood it, the Whistle ISDN stack is almost completely configurable by using netgraph messages whereas i4b is configured by its isdnd config file. I have made some experiments with mppd over the i4b netgraph b-channel interface and it works beautifully here without any additional configuration messages necessary. But i have no idea, if the real world demands some control messages, such as dial, dial a number, hangup etc. Any ideas how to proceed with this ? hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis Tel +49 40 55 97 47-70 HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH Fax +49 40 55 97 47-77 Oldesloer Strasse 97-99 Mail hm [at] hcs.de D-22457 Hamburg WWW http://www.hcs.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 3:34:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from swebase.com (mail.swebase.com [212.75.75.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E748F37B578 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 03:34:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kasper@swebase.com) Received: from ns1 [212.75.75.43] by swebase.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id AAD24E021C; Wed, 08 Mar 2000 12:34:42 +0100 From: "Kasper" To: Subject: Block out PING. Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:35:59 +0100 Message-ID: <001701bf88f2$79ff4960$2b4b4bd4@swebase.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is there any way to stop the machine to answer on ping, so that my machine doenst answer on any ping? My server has been ping attacked a few times. ./Kasper To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 3:57:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hermes.research.kpn.com (hermes.research.kpn.com [139.63.192.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AAA637B60B for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 03:57:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from K.J.Koster@kpn.com) Received: from l04.research.kpn.com (l04.research.kpn.com [139.63.192.204]) by research.kpn.com (PMDF V5.2-31 #35196) with ESMTP id <01JMSHK8H2CG000W3N@research.kpn.com> for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:57:35 +0100 Received: by l04.research.kpn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <19A0873Y>; Wed, 08 Mar 2000 12:57:33 +0100 Content-return: allowed Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 12:57:29 +0100 From: "Koster, K.J." Subject: RE: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning To: "'Jordan K. Hubbard'" Cc: 'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list' Message-id: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313959@l04.research.kpn.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > "Do you want to use all available disk space for > FreeBSD?" > For complete newbies this is indeed better than my suggestion. For the level above that (and I count myself here) a merged menu might just be more user friendly. Kees Jan ============================================== You are only young once, but you can stay immature all your life To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 4:16:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DDEF37B60B for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 04:16:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA13671; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 04:15:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Koster, K.J." Cc: "'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Mar 2000 12:57:29 +0100." <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313959@l04.research.kpn.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 04:15:27 -0800 Message-ID: <13668.952517727@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > For the level above that (and I count myself here) a merged menu might just > be more user friendly. And I don't disagree. The only thing which prevented me from merging them to begin with was the fact that dialog/curses represent an insufficiently advanced UI technology for taking adequate advantage of the available screen real-estate. No scrolling list boxes and such make it necessary to simulate that kind of behavior in the application and I didn't have time to do that on top of everything else in sysinstall. Maybe Mr. Gold will handle this for us in his semi-mythical sysinstall rewrite. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 5:53:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7CC837BFA0 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 05:53:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA267450; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:51:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <13242.952513560@zippy.cdrom.com> References: <13242.952513560@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:51:59 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Koster, K.J." From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning Cc: "'Edward Gold'" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 3:06 AM -0800 3/8/00, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > For complete newbies, having "two formatting menus" seems weird > > too, and may be confusing. (I'm quoting one of my housemates). > >For complete newbies, you really only want to ask one question up-front: > > "Do you want to use all available disk space for FreeBSD?" > >If the answer is yes, you go do the rest on their behalf without >asking anything more than, perhaps, what kind of installation they >want (desktop, server, etc). If the answer is no, then you get into >the more detailed questions. I think that gets back to the original observation though. If you do have super-simple option for newbies (which sounds like a good idea to me), then that option should be picking better sizes for partitions than the current default sizes. The first time I installed freebsd, I picked numbers that were a little larger than the defaults for '/' and '/var', and still found myself needing to redo the entire installation in less than a week because /var was too small. That was fine enough for me, as I just figured it as a learning experience and went ahead and redid everything. Newbies might not like learning experiences quite that much. (and actually, every time I do a new install I keep bumping up the size a bit more). Or are you saying that the newbie option would just use the entire disk as one partition (the way that MacOS 10 server does...)? (well, I guess it'd have to be two partitions, with one of them being for swap space...). (I don't think this is a crisis or anything that needs to change right this second, but assuming the installation is going to stick with multiple partitions, then I do think that the default sizes for some of these partitions should be larger). --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 6: 4:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C14837B82F for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 06:04:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16753; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 06:03:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: "Koster, K.J." , "'Edward Gold'" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Mar 2000 08:51:59 EST." Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 06:03:06 -0800 Message-ID: <16745.952524186@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The first time I installed freebsd, I picked numbers that were > a little larger than the defaults for '/' and '/var', and still > found myself needing to redo the entire installation in less > than a week because /var was too small. That was fine enough And as you've seen by subsequent discussion, it's impossible to derive a "one size fits all" solution for something like /var. I would expect this to come out of the "I know where you want it, now what kind of install will this be?" question which the newbie installer gets to answer second. If they pick "mail server" from the menu then /var will get a totally different ratio % assigned to it. If they pick "personal workstation" then 20MB is, if anything, perhaps a little high. > Or are you saying that the newbie option would just use the > entire disk as one partition (the way that MacOS 10 server > does...)? No, that's evil for a lot of reasons which I won't go into here. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 6:44:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kronos.alcnet.com (kronos.alcnet.com [63.69.28.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C3B37C00E for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 06:44:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kbyanc@posi.net) X-Provider: ALC Communications, Inc. http://www.alcnet.com/ Received: from localhost (kbyanc@localhost) by kronos.alcnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/antispam) with ESMTP id JAA33499; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:44:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:44:37 -0500 (EST) From: Kelly Yancey X-Sender: kbyanc@kronos.alcnet.com To: Kasper Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Block out PING. In-Reply-To: <001701bf88f2$79ff4960$2b4b4bd4@swebase.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Kasper wrote: > Is there any way to stop the machine to answer on ping, so that my machine > doenst answer on any ping? My server has been ping attacked a few times. > > ./Kasper > > Try ipfw(8) Kelly -- Kelly Yancey - kbyanc@posi.net - Richmond, VA Analyst / E-business Development, Bell Industries http://www.bellind.com/ Maintainer, BSD Driver Database http://www.posi.net/freebsd/drivers/ Coordinator, Team FreeBSD http://www.posi.net/freebsd/Team-FreeBSD/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 7:15:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A9F37B5E3 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 07:15:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20766; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:15:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38C66E8E.67CD0475@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 08:15:26 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Koster, K.J." Cc: "'Edward Gold'" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning References: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313957@l04.research.kpn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Koster, K.J." wrote: > > Also, I'd really love to be able to configure ccd stripe sets from > sysinstall, but I would not be surprised if that was too much to ask. :) Being able to configure vinum slices would be nice, too. Especially once Greg commits support for booting from vinum volumes. Think about booting from mirrored volumes for reliability. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 7:28:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BBE037B55E for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 07:28:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21072; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:28:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38C6719A.D419CF1D@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 08:28:26 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kasper Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Block out PING. References: <001701bf88f2$79ff4960$2b4b4bd4@swebase.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kasper wrote: > > Is there any way to stop the machine to answer on ping, so that my machine > doenst answer on any ping? My server has been ping attacked a few times. Firewall or filter the inbound ICMP echo request packets. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 7:35:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 487B337B631 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 07:35:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA16528; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:35:30 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:35:30 -0600 From: Dan Nelson To: Kasper Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Block out PING. Message-ID: <20000308093530.B12549@dan.emsphone.com> References: <001701bf88f2$79ff4960$2b4b4bd4@swebase.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.5i In-Reply-To: <001701bf88f2$79ff4960$2b4b4bd4@swebase.com>; from "Kasper" on Wed Mar 8 12:35:59 GMT 2000 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the last episode (Mar 08), Kasper said: > Is there any way to stop the machine to answer on ping, so that my > machine doenst answer on any ping? My server has been ping attacked a > few times. This won't help you, as the problem with pingfloods is usually the sent packets, not your responses. By the time the ping requests have reached your machine, your connection is probably already maxed out. T? Modem Attacker(s) --- ( Internet cloud ) -------- You 1000 pps -> 1000 pps -> 20 pps -. ) 20 pps <- 20 pps <- 20 pps <-' -- Dan Nelson dnelson@emsphone.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 7:46: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F2D37B5E3 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 07:46:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (dcs@p07-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.136]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id AAA18454; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:44:50 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <38C67527.263EFECC@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 00:43:35 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Garance A Drosihn , "Koster, K.J." , "'Edward Gold'" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning References: <16745.952524186@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > The first time I installed freebsd, I picked numbers that were > > a little larger than the defaults for '/' and '/var', and still > > found myself needing to redo the entire installation in less > > than a week because /var was too small. That was fine enough > > And as you've seen by subsequent discussion, it's impossible > to derive a "one size fits all" solution for something like /var. > > I would expect this to come out of the "I know where you want it, now > what kind of install will this be?" question which the newbie > installer gets to answer second. If they pick "mail server" from > the menu then /var will get a totally different ratio % assigned > to it. If they pick "personal workstation" then 20MB is, if anything, > perhaps a little high. > > > Or are you saying that the newbie option would just use the > > entire disk as one partition (the way that MacOS 10 server > > does...)? > > No, that's evil for a lot of reasons which I won't go into here. :) I don't agree... A small /, and a huge /usr, with an additional var symlink, shouldn't cause any troubles to newbies, and avoid some problems. I think that the "use all available space" option ought to do this. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them, One IP to bring them all and in the zone bind them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 8: 7:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C12F37C056 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:07:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21910; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:06:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Garance A Drosihn , "Koster, K.J." , "'Edward Gold'" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Mar 2000 00:43:35 +0900." <38C67527.263EFECC@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 08:06:27 -0800 Message-ID: <21907.952531587@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > No, that's evil for a lot of reasons which I won't go into here. :) > > I don't agree... A small /, and a huge /usr, with an additional var Not surprising since you're not even arguing with the point I was making. :) I said that a big / was evil. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 8:16:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.butya.kz (butya-gw.butya.kz [212.154.129.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2010B37C393 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:16:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bp@butya.kz) Received: from bp (helo=localhost) by relay.butya.kz with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12Sj8E-0003gS-00; Wed, 08 Mar 2000 22:16:18 +0600 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:16:18 +0600 (ALMT) From: Boris Popov To: Johan Kruger Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lodable kernel modules In-Reply-To: <00030809170203.63483@ockle.dev.nanoteq.co.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Johan Kruger wrote: > Hi there, sorry to bother you, just want to as two quick questions .. > I looked as examples at ncp.ko and nwfs.ko ??? > > 1) If i look in the compiled nwfs directory, what is the __hack_file for ??, This is fake file to put dependency entry in the linked file. See resulting command lines for more details. I think that those files will gone in the near future (of course, module dependancy will work). > 2) Why could'nt i load the ncp.ko in the ncp directory ( Exec format error ) > unless i removed the ipx support from the Makefile ?? Because your kernel doesn't have an IPX support compiled in, and ncp.ko module requires it by default. -- Boris Popov http://www.butya.kz/~bp/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 8:46:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu (bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu [128.226.1.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FF837C1CE for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:46:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu) Received: from sol.cs.binghamton.edu (sol.cs.binghamton.edu [128.226.123.100]) by bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA17001; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 11:46:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:21:52 -0500 (EST) From: Zhihui Zhang To: Chris Costello Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where is pci_intr_establish() & _thread_sys_read()? In-Reply-To: <20000306181404.H4990@holly.calldei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Chris Costello wrote: > On Monday, March 06, 2000, Zhihui Zhang wrote: > > Can anyone tell me where is the code for pci_intr_establish() and > > _thread_sys_read()? I could not find them under /usr/src. > > I can tell you offhand that _thread_sys_anything is the _real_ > syscall for `anything'. This is because a lot of syscalls are > reimplemented within libc_r for reasons that are kind of obvious > (directly calling the read syscall from one thread would block > all the other threads in a process). So _thread_sys_open() == > open(2), _thread_sys_read() == read(2), etc. > You are right. In file libc/i386/SYS.h , you can see the following: #define PSYSCALL(x) 2: PIC_PROLOGUE; jmp PIC_PLT(HIDENAME(cerror)); \ ENTRY(__CONCAT(_thread_sys_,x)); \ lea __CONCAT(SYS_,x),%eax; KERNCALL; jb 2b -Zhihui To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 8:58:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E273737C314 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:58:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 6277 invoked from network); 8 Mar 2000 16:58:17 -0000 Received: from du82.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.82) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 8 Mar 2000 16:58:17 -0000 Message-ID: <38C68678.8748C82F@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 11:57:28 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Proposed FAQ on assembly programming Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The question of how to write an assembly language program on FreeBSD comes up occasionally. The main difficulty is that it is not immediately obvious how to make a system call without using libc, which may not always be desirable. There does not seem to be any documentation on this (other than the kernel source). I have drafted a FAQ that very briefly shows how to write the canonical "Hello, world." program in FreeBSD assembler. The draft can be found at http://home.ptd.net/~tms2/hello.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 9:13:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84CBA37C3BE for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:13:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (dcs@p07-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.136]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id CAA07391; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:12:59 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <38C689CE.FED945E2@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 02:11:42 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Garance A Drosihn , "Koster, K.J." , "'Edward Gold'" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning References: <21907.952531587@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > > No, that's evil for a lot of reasons which I won't go into here. :) > > > > I don't agree... A small /, and a huge /usr, with an additional var > > Not surprising since you're not even arguing with the point I was > making. :) I said that a big / was evil. If you want to win a discussion, never argue on your opponents terms. :-) I assume you approve, then? Good, I'll hack it up then. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them, One IP to bring them all and in the zone bind them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 10: 6:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.errno.com (node-d1d4bd7a.powerinter.net [209.212.189.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA4237B61C for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:06:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sam@errno.com) Received: from MELANGE (melange.errno.com [209.212.166.36]) by gw.errno.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA10983; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:01:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <084c01bf8928$62a968f0$0132a8c0@MELANGE> From: "Sam Leffler" To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" , References: Subject: Re: doscmd under FreeBSD 4.0 20000214-SNAP Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:01:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG INT15's are typically a result of unexpected interrupts or a printer acknowledge IRQ; ignore them. INT16's are video requests; function 1 in this case sets the cursor type. The video requests are done to draw the boot menu that (probably) lets you pick whether to boot w/ or w/o certain device support (e.g. SCSI or CD-ROM). When I hit this I got further by running doscmd w/ the -x option; sounds like that's not an option for you (though beware I was running on BSD/OS 4.0 and not FreeBSD). If you want to learn about this sort of stuff get a copy of The Undocumented PC. I'd be interested in talking to anyone that's successfully using doscmd to do anything. I want to use it to run a DOS app that communicates with a Panasonic KSU but can't seem to get keyboard input to work when using an X window. Sam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 12:44 AM Subject: doscmd under FreeBSD 4.0 20000214-SNAP > Hi! > > There's a problem. I'm trying to run ${SUBJ} unsing MSDOS 6.22 bootable > diskette, with .doscmdrc file from man doscmd(1). That's what I get: > > Unknown interrupt 15 function 4101 > Unknown interrupt 15 function 8796 > doscmd: fatal error int16 func 0x1 only supported in X mode > > If I try to run 'doscmd -r', I get: > > mmap: Invalid argument > > Any ideas? I have no X installed, btw. I'll try MSDOS 6.0, but I don't > think version really matters at this early stage :-( > > P.S. and what happened to that "VM86" option in kernel? > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 10: 8:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B9EE37B731 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:08:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8D98A7556; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:08:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 888831D8A; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:08:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:08:33 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning In-Reply-To: <38C67527.263EFECC@newsguy.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: :"Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: :> > Or are you saying that the newbie option would just use the :> > entire disk as one partition (the way that MacOS 10 server :> > does...)? :> No, that's evil for a lot of reasons which I won't go into here. :) :I don't agree... A small /, and a huge /usr, with an additional var :symlink, shouldn't cause any troubles to newbies, and avoid some :problems. I think that the "use all available space" option ought to do :this. Something like this: 12:44pm lich /home/jamie %df -k Filesystem Type kbytes use avail %use Mounted on /dev/root xfs 99816 29319 70497 30 / /dev/usr xfs 8717760 2909580 5808180 34 /usr This is an Irix box, but I tend to partition my FreeBSD boxes the same way (for workstations anyway, servers of course vary; which was the point of this discussion I believe). Even with servers I only vary the above slightly. If a part of the directory tree needs more space I will throw a disk on and slice it up. Here's a sample: 12:48pm banshee /home/jamie %df -k Filesystem Type kbytes use avail %use Mounted on /dev/root xfs 99816 33997 65819 35 / /dev/usr xfs 4166080 3202004 964076 77 /usr /dev/dsk/dks1d4s7 xfs 8759744 1916808 6842936 22 /usr/home5 /dev/dsk/dks1d2s7 xfs 4268480 520436 3748044 13 /usr/local The next chunk of space to get it's own drive is /var/spool, which for me contains user mail queues as well as mqueue, named maps, and ftp's home. Optimally you would just add more space a grow a filesystem into it, but that unrealistic for a multitude of reasons. I have swap divided among the three drives currently like so: 12:52pm banshee /home/jamie %swap -l lswap path dev pri swaplo blocks free maxswap vswap 1 /dev/swap 0,105 0 0 262144 262144 262144 0 2 /dev/dsk/dks1d2s2 0,148 0 0 262144 262144 262144 0 3 /dev/dsk/dks1d4s2 0,155 0 0 262144 262144 262144 0 /dev/root, /dev/usr, and /dev/swap all come off the root drive, which Irix uses the above easy to remember names for. I could just as easily mount them using the actual device node entries as well. Someone mentioned booting off mirrored drives. This I've done before as well. I've done it in Solaris and Irix. Sun's meta tools are an example of how not to do this. One way mirroring, you start with two filesystems, one live, one empty, and hope your corruption doesn't spread to your mirror should you have any. This was as of Solaris 2.6.1. If disksuite got any better in 2.7, or 2.8, I don't know. With Irix you have two raw devices, which you assign as mirrors, and you then newfs and apply data. If either fails, it drops till you repair and bring it back online. Still not as nice as external SCSI to SCSI RAID doing it for you, but definately better than the above. I won's say XLV is perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it beats Disksuite all to hell for a software RAID solution. Disksuite and XLV both support 0+1, and it's basically the same as using single partitions as mirrors. Suffice it to say, if you have to deal with /dev/md on a Solaris box, run. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 10:22:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bubba.whistle.com (bubba.whistle.com [207.76.205.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2296E37B731; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:22:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id KAA59436; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:21:37 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <200003081821.KAA59436@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) In-Reply-To: <20000308110649.3674A3A34@hcswork.hcs.de> from Hellmuth Michaelis at "Mar 8, 2000 12:06:48 pm" To: hm@hcs.de Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:21:37 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hellmuth Michaelis writes: > > 2. We should come up with a 'standard' netgraph control message > > API for an ISDN basic rate interface, and have i4b implement > > this interface. Then mpd/ppp/etc can "know" this interface > > and therefore work automatically with any ISDN BRI device. > > Here is the interface that we use at Whistle: > > ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/archie/netgraph/ng_tn.h > > (note: the switch types are #defined in another file but include > > all of the usual suspects: ETSI, NI-1, AT&T, DMS100, etc.) > > The problem here is, that the Whistle ISDN stack has a fundamentally > different view of the world than i4b has :-) As far as i understood it, > the Whistle ISDN stack is almost completely configurable by using > netgraph messages whereas i4b is configured by its isdnd config file. > > I have made some experiments with mppd over the i4b netgraph b-channel > interface and it works beautifully here without any additional > configuration messages necessary. But i have no idea, if the real world > demands some control messages, such as dial, dial a number, hangup etc. Yes, our way of doing things was of course designed for our particular application. It depends on what you want to do with an 'ISDN node'. The /dev/i4b interface is actually pretty close to equivalent to our netgraph control message API. The main differences seem to be: - Our API is strictly limited to ISDN operation, e.g., there are no equivalents to I4B_TIMEOUT_UPD, I4B_UPDOWN_IND, or MSG_IDLE_TIMEOUT_IND and no connection to sppp(8) - Our API allows more ISDN-related configuration, e.g., changing switch type. - Our API is at a slightly higher level.. we don't have the CDID_REQ or PROCEEDING_IND messages; when rejecting a call, you don't get to specify the cause code, it's always set to 21 for you, etc. So the /dev/i4b and our netgraph API are actually quite similar. Of course, a major difference is that with /dev/i4b you don't get the B-channels exposed as netgraph node hooks, which is very useful... but as you've shown already this is easy to add. This gets you a "half netgraphified" ISDN node. One thing that would be easy to do is to simply convert all of the /dev/i4b ioctl's directly into netgraph control messages. This doesn't really buy you anything much though -- really just a different interface for the same thing. But if there were future plans to do all kinds of wacky things with an ISDN device that would benefit by having it fully netgraphified, maybe this would be worth doing. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 10:29:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from cs.rice.edu (cs.rice.edu [128.42.1.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 396E837B515; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:29:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aron@cs.rice.edu) Received: (from aron@localhost) by cs.rice.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA14589; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:29:36 -0600 (CST) From: Mohit Aron Message-Id: <200003081829.MAA14589@cs.rice.edu> Subject: enabling APIC without SMP To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:29:35 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I'm using a FreeBSD-current snapshot from 3rd January 2000. It seems that in order to enable APICs (option APIC_IO in kernel configuration file), one needs to also compile the kernel with SMP support (option SMP in kernel configuration file). While enabling the APIC is desirable even on a uniprocessor (provides more IRQs, interrupt ovhd becomes less, provides on-chip timer), enabling SMP support on a uniprocessor brings down the performance (I've noticed a degradation of 22% in performance of a webserver when a kernel was compiled with SMP support than without). Would it be possible to allow enabling the APIC without requiring support for SMP in future versions of FreeBSD ? Since I'm using a snapshot that's about two months old, I apologize if the above has already been addressed in the latest snapshots. - Mohit To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 10:40:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D65EC37C1EA for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:40:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16979; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:40:04 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:40:10 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Mohit Aron Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: enabling APIC without SMP In-Reply-To: <200003081829.MAA14589@cs.rice.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'll second this request. > Hi, > I'm using a FreeBSD-current snapshot from 3rd January 2000. It seems > that in order to enable APICs (option APIC_IO in kernel configuration file), > one needs to also compile the kernel with SMP support (option SMP in kernel > configuration file). While enabling the APIC is desirable even on a > uniprocessor (provides more IRQs, interrupt ovhd becomes less, provides > on-chip timer), enabling SMP support on a uniprocessor brings down the > performance (I've noticed a degradation of 22% in performance of a webserver > when a kernel was compiled with SMP support than without). Would it be possible > to allow enabling the APIC without requiring support for SMP in future > versions of FreeBSD ? > > Since I'm using a snapshot that's about two months old, I apologize if the > above has already been addressed in the latest snapshots. > > > > - Mohit > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 13: 4:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-198-202.guate.net [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9470B37B554 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:03:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA77103 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:03:34 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:03:27 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: inner workings of the C compiler Message-ID: <20000308150327.A77039@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG i'm working on the C library, and to make debuggin easy i've copied /usr/src/lib/libc to another directory and only build libc.a. i've also copied /usr/src/lib/csu/i386-elf to another directory and have enabled debug symbols on both csu and libc. to try things out i create a static binary and coerce it to use my C library instead of the system's one. this is how i compile my program: cc -g -DYP -DFreeBSD -Wall -pedantic -ansi -c -I../../libc/include nss-test.c cc -g -nostdlib -static -L../../libc -o nss-test nss-test.o \ ../../csu/i386-elf/crt1.o ../../csu/i386-elf/crti.o -lc now, the program runs fine, but at the very end gives me a bus error and core dumps... i've tracked the bug to the following call in line 90 csu/i386-elf/crt1.c in function _start() atexit(_fini); at this point, in gdb (gdb) print _fini $1 = {} 0x80528e4 (gdb) step atexit (fn=0x80528e4) at /usr/home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/libc/../libc/stdlib/atexit.c:59 1: __progname = 0xbfbffa86 "nss-test" (gdb) print fn $2 = (void (*)()) 0 fn is the argument to atexit() later, in fuction exit() it will try to dereference a null pointer due to the above... i'm puzzled by this behavior... am i missing something? how is it possible that the value i'm seeing before the call to atexit() (0x80528e4) gets to be null once inside atexit()? thanks and regards, -oscar -- pgp public key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu pgp fingerprint: 6D 18 8C 90 4C DF F0 4B DF 35 1F 69 A1 33 C7 BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 13:11:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2B537B663 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:11:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA35299; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:11:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:11:45 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200003082111.WAA35299@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-hackers In-Reply-To: <8a4nr4$p12$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matthew Dillon wrote in list.freebsd-hackers: > I'll tell ya, I *never* use the auto-defaults. Me neither. :-) > They are way too > tiny. A 50MB root barely fits the kernel and you can run it out of > space doing an installworld. I almost always do this: That's probably because you're a developper, I guess you have at least a dozen kernels lying around. ;-) 30 Mbyte for / is enough for me. BTW (replying to Jordan's statement), I agree that one big / is a Bad Thing[TM]. Usually I try to separate stuff that's often written to (/var, /home) from the static data (/, /usr). That also makes backups easier. Furthermore, it is important to separate partitions which could easily overflow (user homes, spool directories) from "critical" things. That has saved my day a few times. ;-) Well, as someone else said, you can't make it fit everybody. What I would like to see in sysinstall is an option to make /tmp an MFS. But then again, that would probably open yet another can of worms... Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 13:18:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE7B37B618 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:18:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA39164; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:18:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:18:50 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200003082118.WAA39164@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Block out PING. X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-hackers In-Reply-To: <8a5dvp$15dg$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kasper wrote in list.freebsd-hackers: > Is there any way to stop the machine to answer on ping, so that my machine > doenst answer on any ping? My server has been ping attacked a few times. I'd recommend that you add options "ICMP_BANDLIM" to your kernel. This will limit the amount of ICMP replies that your machine is sending out, without turning off ICMP completely (which would be a _very_ bad thing). You can tune the bandwidth limit with sysctl net.inet.icmp.icmplim. However, if the _incoming_ ICMP packets are already filling up your line and causing trouble, there's nothing that you could do against it on your side, I'm afraid. Then you should try to track down who's attacking you, and get those bad boys LARTed. You could also try to ask your ISP for help. Regards Oliver PS: "Pings" are just a particular type of ICMP packets (ICMP ECHO requests and ICMP ECHO replies, respectively). -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 14:19:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189D937B647 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:19:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05930; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:19:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003082219.RAA05930@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38C5BAD7.7AA9E6A3@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:19:40 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Edward Gold Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 08-Mar-00 Edward Gold wrote: > Mike Walker wrote: > >> > I was using sysinstall the other day and hit Auto defaults just to see >> > what it suggested, and got this on a 20GB disk: >> > wd0s1a / 50MB UFS Y >> > wd0s1b swap 651MB SWAP >> > wd0s1e /var 20MB UFS Y >> > wd0s1f /usr 18849MB UFS Y >> > >> > the /var one struck me as really bad just thought i would mention it >> >> How about adding a /usr/local for bigger disks to break up dumps? >> amanda only supports dumping to one tape. So using dump on >> filesystems over 7/14G can cause problems. Not everyone has 20/40 >> plus tapes and images don't compress much. >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > I was actually planning a near-complete rewrite of sysinstall anyway! How > about everyone throwing in whatever suggestions you would like ( about > anything regarding sysinstall ), and I will try to incorporate them!? It has already been re-written, complete with the new packaging system. It just has some rough edges that need to be fixed, and the code needs to be documented. The package is called libh, and you will find links to it if you search the archives. > The things I am specifically going to focus on are: > > 1. depretzel the GUI from the logic and modularize. > 2. implement scripting capability so we can control the user's path > through the various menus from a script file of sorts. > 3. possibly make stand alone post-install GUI based utilities for > fdisk/disklabel and other configuration functions. > > Ed -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 15:59:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C7137B66F for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:59:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA15913; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:30:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:30:58 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Oscar Bonilla Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler Message-ID: <20000308163057.W14279@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000308150327.A77039@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000308150327.A77039@fisicc-ufm.edu>; from obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu on Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 03:03:27PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Oscar Bonilla [000308 13:37] wrote: > i'm working on the C library, and to make debuggin easy i've copied > /usr/src/lib/libc to another directory and only build libc.a. > > i've also copied /usr/src/lib/csu/i386-elf to another directory and > have enabled debug symbols on both csu and libc. > > to try things out i create a static binary and coerce it to use my > C library instead of the system's one. I'm pretty sure this can be done a hell of a lot easier by using shared libraries and using the enviornment variables LD_LIBRARY_PATH and LD_PRELOAD, see the rtld manpage for more help. good luck, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 16:16:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA40837B6DF for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:16:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA35069; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:13:28 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:13:28 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Brooks Davis , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning Message-ID: <20000309001328.A33477@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <8a49s1$gdo$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200003080306.EAA99235@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <20000307210313.A14041@orion.ac.hmc.edu> <200003080514.VAA60513@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <200003080514.VAA60513@apollo.backplane.com>; from Matthew Dillon on Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 09:14:34PM -0800 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This looks like as good a place as any to hang this; On Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 09:14:34PM -0800, Matthew Dillon wrote: > I'll tell ya, I *never* use the auto-defaults. They are way too > tiny. A 50MB root barely fits the kernel and you can run it out of > space doing an installworld. I almost always do this: > > / 128M > swap (double system memory at a minimum) > /var 128M > /var/tmp 128M > /usr (at least 1G) > /u1 (remainder, if it's a big disk) > > /tmp softlink to /var/tmp (because having two tmp's is stupid) > /home softlink to /u1/home Here's a documentation of my current recommended practice which'll probably turn in to an article somewhere in the doc/ tree some time. Comments welcome. N Recommended disk and partition layout In order to reduce space wastage, and provide a flexible partition layout for future work, the following disk partition layout is recommended. First, you need three 'standard' filesystems, of roughly this size: / 50m /var 50m /usr 250m A 50m / should be sufficient for static /bin and /sbin, as well as /etc, other configuration files, and a local /tmp. Similarly, a 50m /var covers most log files, assuming the machine isn't doing anything too log intensive. Don't worry about the size of incoming and outgoing mail spools, or the print spooler at the moment. Finally, a 250m /usr covers all the standard stuff, and leaves room for expansion in the future. Now, create one more filesystem, /local/0 rest of the disk If you have any more disks, create 1 filesystem per disk, and arrange to mount them as /local/1, /local/2, and so on. The known space fillers can then be moved on to /local/{0,1,2,...} as necessary, and then symlinked back in to place. For example; mkdir -p /local/0/usr mkdir -p /local/0/var mkdir -p /local/0/home cd /usr mv src /local/0/usr mv obj /local/0/usr mv ports /local/0/usr mv X11R6 /local/0/usr ln -s /local/0/usr/* . cd /var mv mail /local/0/var mv spool /local/0/var ln -s /local/0/var/* . and so on. Adjust the disks you move stuff to, depending on how many disks you have, and expected usage. For example, if you only have one disk, then /local/0/usr/{src,ports,obj} and /local/0/home/ncvs[1] will all have to be on one disk. When you add a second disk, you will definitely want to move /local/0/usr/obj to /local/1/usr/obj, and /local/0/home/ncvs to /local/1/home/ncvs (and update their symlinks). This is because: 1. If you do a CVS checkout from /home/ncvs to /usr/src, two different disks will be used, speeding things up considerably. 2. If you do a "make world", the source will be read from /usr/src, on the first disk, and the compiled programs (and object files) will be written to /usr/obj, on the second disk, and again, this will speed things up. Problems with this approach By placing everything on one (or a few) large filesystems, you lose finegrained control. For example, if /var/mail and /var/spool are symlinks to /local/0/var/mail and /local/0/var/spool respectively, then there is the possibility that large incoming e-mails can use up all the disk space, preventing anything that requires /var/spool (such as lpd(8)) from working properly -- and vice versa, as large print jobs may halt reception of incoming e-mail. To an extent, you can work around this problem with quotas. For example, the mail system runs as group 'mail', so you can set a group quota for mail to prevent it filling up the disk. Some daemons also have configuration options to prevent them filling up the disk, such as the lpd(8) minfree file. -- [1] Assuming you've got a local copy of the CVS tree you checkout /usr/src from -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 16:28:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F78237B710 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:28:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA65197; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:28:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA04639; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:27:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200003090027.RAA04639@harmony.village.org> To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" Subject: Re: doscmd under FreeBSD 4.0 20000214-SNAP Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Mar 2000 14:44:10 +0600." References: Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:27:58 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" writes: : doscmd: fatal error int16 func 0x1 only supported in X mode I've never had programs that use this work w/o X. In fact, I've never tried to get doscmd working w/o X, but Sourcer required int 16 functions and that's the only large program I've run under this. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 16:30:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95BFB37B5A0 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:30:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA65209; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:30:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA04659; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:30:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200003090030.RAA04659@harmony.village.org> To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning Cc: "Koster, K.J." , "'Edward Gold'" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Mar 2000 08:15:26 MST." <38C66E8E.67CD0475@softweyr.com> References: <38C66E8E.67CD0475@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313957@l04.research.kpn.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:30:00 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <38C66E8E.67CD0475@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: : Being able to configure vinum slices would be nice, too. Especially : once Greg commits support for booting from vinum volumes. Think about : booting from mirrored volumes for reliability. Having vinum support in sysinstall would cut into my consulting business :-). Setting up a mirrored system is hard enough that people are hiring consultants to do it. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 16:32:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65F6237B672 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:31:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA65214; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:31:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA04675; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:31:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200003090031.RAA04675@harmony.village.org> To: "Sam Leffler" Subject: Re: doscmd under FreeBSD 4.0 20000214-SNAP Cc: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Mar 2000 10:01:53 PST." <084c01bf8928$62a968f0$0132a8c0@MELANGE> References: <084c01bf8928$62a968f0$0132a8c0@MELANGE> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:31:34 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <084c01bf8928$62a968f0$0132a8c0@MELANGE> "Sam Leffler" writes: : I'd be interested in talking to anyone that's successfully using doscmd to : do anything. I want to use it to run a DOS app that communicates with a : Panasonic KSU but can't seem to get keyboard input to work when using an X : window. Which window manager? I think that doscmd's window isn't icccm compliant in that it doesn't set the Focus hint properly. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 16:40:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mission.mvnc.edu (mission.mvnc.edu [149.143.2.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B4137B74A for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:40:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdrobnac@mission.mvnc.edu) Received: from localhost (kdrobnac@localhost) by mission.mvnc.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id TAA06512 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:40:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:40:17 -0500 (EST) From: Kenny Drobnack To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New packaging system (was: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning) In-Reply-To: <200003082219.RAA05930@server.baldwin.cx> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I was actually planning a near-complete rewrite of sysinstall anyway! How > > about everyone throwing in whatever suggestions you would like ( about > > anything regarding sysinstall ), and I will try to incorporate them!? > > It has already been re-written, complete with the new packaging system. It > just has some rough edges that need to be fixed, and the code needs to be > documented. The package is called libh, and you will find links to it if > you search the archives. I have a suggestion. I have a laptop with Debian Linux on it, and I love the way it does the packaging system. For those not familiar with it, I will try to briefly explain how it works. You run it, set what version of Debian Linux you have (stable or unstable, I think there's a 3rd option too, which I can't remember). Then set what kind of media you're installing from (CD-ROM, nfs, hard drive, ftp, etc). It looks for a file called PACKAGES.GZ and from that builds a list of all the packages available from whatever source it was pointed at. Whenever you select a package too get, it automagically selects all the required dependencies. And then it doesn't download the packages until you tell it to. On top of all this, dselect has an update feature that puts Windows Update to shame (not hard actually :-) If you point dselect at a archive that has more recent versions of some programs, it will tell you which programs have newer versions available, and give you a chance to download it, if that be your heart's desire. I figure some of these features could be a great addition to the ports collection, as well as the pkg_* tools. Another idea, I've noticed a trend in some programs of having a GUI interface, as well as a command-line mode. To me, this sounds like it would be great to have with a package management tool. ----- In computer terms, hardware is the stuff you can hit with a baseball bat, and software is the stuff you can only swear at. -from a web page explaining what hardware, software, and firmware are ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 16:42:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gizmo.internode.com.au (gizmo.internode.com.au [192.83.231.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F82237B529 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:42:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from newton@gizmo.internode.com.au) Received: (from newton@localhost) by gizmo.internode.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28315; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:12:21 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from newton) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:12:21 +1030 From: Mark Newton To: Warner Losh Cc: Wes Peters , "Koster, K.J." , "'Edward Gold'" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning Message-ID: <20000309111221.B28232@internode.com.au> References: <38C66E8E.67CD0475@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313957@l04.research.kpn.com> <38C66E8E.67CD0475@softweyr.com> <200003090030.RAA04659@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <200003090030.RAA04659@harmony.village.org> X-PGP-Key: http://www.on.net/~newton/pgpkey.txt Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 05:30:00PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > Having vinum support in sysinstall would cut into my consulting > business :-). "Oh, sorry, let's not do that then!" :-) > Setting up a mirrored system is hard enough that people > are hiring consultants to do it. Yes, I have to say that I've done a couple of these myself. Another thing which would be useful is the ability to "vinum-ize" an existing filesystem without destroying it first. On Solaris and IRIX I can do that by creating a logical volume with a single plex which just happens to contain the same partition as the existing filesystem, thereby wrapping the filesystem in the logical volume. I can then mount that logical volume; the entire process takes about two minutes. Adding additional plexes to it to grow it or add redundancy is then done in the same way that'd be done for any other logical volume. I'm not sure that you can do that with vinum, though. Greg and I talked about it about six months ago as a nice thing to have, but there are, of course, other priorities... - mark -- Mark Newton Email: newton@internode.com.au (W) Network Engineer Email: newton@atdot.dotat.org (H) Internode Systems Pty Ltd Desk: +61-8-82232999 "Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton" Mobile: +61-416-202-223 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 17:59:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from awfulhak.org (dynamic-97.max4-du-ws.dialnetwork.pavilion.co.uk [212.74.9.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C54837B6FD; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:59:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.awfulhak.org [172.16.0.12]) by awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03755; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:10:03 GMT (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11664; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:12:17 GMT (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <200003081912.TAA11664@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Archie Cobbs Cc: nox@jelal.kn-bremen.de (Juergen Lock), julian@elischer.org (Julian Elischer), hm@hcs.de, kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org Subject: Re: ijppp for isdn, ppp compression, and netgraph (also: load balancing) In-Reply-To: Message from Archie Cobbs of "Tue, 07 Mar 2000 10:36:42 PST." <200003071836.KAA41919@bubba.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 19:12:16 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Juergen Lock writes: > > > when this is done the netgraph PPP nodes (which can support > > > these compression types will be usable. > > > > They could, but they don't yet, right? :) > > > > Maybe it still should be added to ijppp first cause debugging user > > processes is easier than the kernel... and at the usual isdn bri > > speeds a user process should still be pretty fast enough. > > That makes perfect sense.. just be sure to write the code so that > it's easily ported to the kernel.. the main issues being mbuf's.. > for that it's probably eassiest to just punt and copy each packet > into a contiguous buffer. I've done a small amount of work on making ppp(8)-style mbufs look more like real mbufs with this in mind. If I can bring the whole interface in line, this problem will go away. Of course this'll probably then introduce a compatibility problem with {Net,Open}BSD... > -Archie > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 18:30:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.rdc3.on.home.com (mail2.rdc3.on.home.com [24.2.9.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E49937B774 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:30:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cwass99@home.com) Received: from tristan.net ([24.114.108.234]) by mail2.rdc3.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <20000309023034.DOMC11289.mail2.rdc3.on.home.com@tristan.net>; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:30:34 -0800 Content-Length: 2009 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <16745.952524186@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 21:25:42 -0500 (EST) From: Colin To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Edward Gold , "Koster, K.J." , Garance A Drosihn Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 08-Mar-2000 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > And as you've seen by subsequent discussion, it's impossible > to derive a "one size fits all" solution for something like /var. > > I would expect this to come out of the "I know where you want it, now > what kind of install will this be?" question which the newbie > installer gets to answer second. If they pick "mail server" from > the menu then /var will get a totally different ratio % assigned > to it. If they pick "personal workstation" then 20MB is, if anything, > perhaps a little high. I might be completely out in left field somewhere, but I don't see that the defaults should be that important. We're discussing what is fundamentally a server oriented system, and realistically we have to assume some minimum level of understanding on the part of the person(s) installing it. From experience I can say that commercial Unix knowledge translates very quickly to FreeBSD, including the basic concepts behind partitioning a disk, so for a (resonably experienced) server administrator there should not really be an issue here. If you owned a company, would you want someone who didn't at least make an effort to research the system requirements prior to install running your mail servers? Even in the M$ world, it's become abundantly clear that setting up any kind of server requires a serious investment in time and effort and learning. Who are we to deprive the newbies of that adventure ;) For those setting it up to experiment/learn, the defaults worked okay for everybody I've helped get started. In those types of situations, a couple of re-installs should probably be expected, anyway, as the newbie inadvertently breaks things ("I was told that find / -exec rm {} ';' would free up lots of disk space by a friend of mine who uses Linux..."). Especially using server software as a desktop OS. I guess I'm saying that the auto partitioning scheme is fine, although arguably not optimum for a desktop. Cheers, Colin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 19:51:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe22.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.240.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BA59E37BB44 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:51:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsdknowledgeseeker@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 42489 invoked by uid 65534); 8 Mar 2000 06:04:38 -0000 Message-ID: <20000308060438.42488.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [129.49.80.145] From: "BSDknowledge seeker" To: Subject: freeBSD booting src info Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 01:16:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Is there a document available which explains the freeBSD's booting sequence - ie. the place where the kernel is mapped, initialisation of the page tables, segment descriptors and so on. If the relevant files are also mentioned, all the better. Thanks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Mar 8 21:42: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4026037B77E for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:42:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA39082; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:42:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38C739AB.3ACD9E8A@gorean.org> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 21:42:03 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0307 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kenny Drobnack Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New packaging system (was: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kenny Drobnack wrote: > I have a suggestion. I have a laptop with Debian Linux on it, and I love > the way it does the packaging system. We have command line tools to do all the things you described, and sysinstall is a GUI front end to the existing package system. As for wish lists, the archives are full of them. Patches talk. :) Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 0: 9: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sprout.cgf.net (adsl-207-215-8-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [207.215.8.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339FB37B761 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:09:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tomb@sprout.cgf.net) Received: (from tomb@localhost) by sprout.cgf.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03679 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:12:27 GMT (envelope-from tomb) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:12:27 GMT From: tomb Message-Id: <200003090012.AAA03679@sprout.cgf.net> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Clock Drift Problem Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Has any else seen this? FreeBSD 3.4 Release. Intel motherboard. kernel.GENERIC The clock on one machine is drifting by 5 mins a day and on the other by 30 mins a day. I'm not running ntp. Any ideas? tomb ;~> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 0:54:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652CE37B74C for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:54:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@ppp-207-193-0-89.kscymo.swbell.net) Received: from ppp-207-193-0-89.kscymo.swbell.net ([207.193.0.89]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FR5005BOCQFPA@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:54:18 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by ppp-207-193-0-89.kscymo.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) id CAA37738; Thu, 09 Mar 2000 02:54:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 02:54:11 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Subject: Re: Clock Drift Problem In-reply-to: <200003090012.AAA03679@sprout.cgf.net> To: tomb@cgf.net (tomb) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: kc5vdj@swbell.net Message-id: <200003090854.CAA37738@ppp-207-193-0-89.kscymo.swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-files: The truth is that the X-Files is fiction X-Republican: The best kind!!! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #8: Sat Oct 30 00:56:56 CDT 1999 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In reply: > Has any else seen this? > > FreeBSD 3.4 Release. > > Intel motherboard. > > kernel.GENERIC > > The clock on one machine is drifting by 5 mins a day and on the other by 30 mins a > day. > > I'm not running ntp. > > Any ideas? > > tomb ;~> uh. run ntp? or at least timed. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ KC5VDJ - HF to 23cm KC5VDJ@NW0I.#NEKS.KS.USA.NOAM kc5vdj@swbell.net IC-706MkII, IC-T81A, HTX-202, HTX-212, HTX-404, KPC3+, PK-232MBX Grid: EM28px ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ET has one helluva sense of humor, always anal-probing right-wing schizos! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 1: 8: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pr.infosec.ru (pr.infosec.ru [194.135.141.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C19E37B74C for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blaze@infosec.ru) Received: from blaze (200.0.0.51 [200.0.0.51]) by pr.infosec.ru with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id G34XY9Y3; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:07:37 +0300 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:09:49 +0300 (MSK) From: Andrey Sverdlichenko X-Sender: blaze@blaze To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning In-Reply-To: <200003080514.VAA60513@apollo.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 7 Mar 2000, Matthew Dillon wrote: > /tmp softlink to /var/tmp (because having two tmp's is stupid) What if /var can't be mounted after crash? /tmp should be on root filesystem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 1:11:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hermes.research.kpn.com (hermes.research.kpn.com [139.63.192.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C1237B778 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:11:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from K.J.Koster@kpn.com) Received: from l04.research.kpn.com (l04.research.kpn.com [139.63.192.204]) by research.kpn.com (PMDF V5.2-31 #35196) with ESMTP id <01JMTQ2BIQYS000VQX@research.kpn.com> for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:11:13 +0100 Received: by l04.research.kpn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <19A09CJG>; Thu, 09 Mar 2000 10:11:12 +0100 Content-return: allowed Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 10:11:10 +0100 From: "Koster, K.J." Subject: RE: freeBSD booting src info To: 'BSDknowledge seeker' Cc: 'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list' Message-id: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E45220131396D@l04.research.kpn.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/internals.html Kees Jan ============================================== You are only young once, but you can stay immature all your life > -----Original Message----- > From: BSDknowledge seeker [mailto:bsdknowledgeseeker@hotmail.com] > Sent: woensdag 8 maart 2000 7:17 > To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: freeBSD booting src info > > > Hi > Is there a document available which explains the freeBSD's booting > sequence - > ie. the place where the kernel is mapped, initialisation of > the page tables, > segment descriptors and so on. > If the relevant files are also mentioned, all the better. > Thanks > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 1:35:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8276A37B5B3 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 01:35:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA743274; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 04:34:47 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 04:35:04 -0500 To: Colin , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 9:25 PM -0500 3/8/00, Colin wrote: > I might be completely out in left field somewhere, but I don't >see that the defaults should be that important. We're discussing >what is fundamentally a server oriented system, and realistically >we have to assume some minimum level of understanding on the part >of the person(s) installing it. The experienced people doing server-oriented things are ignoring the current defaults anyway, so I don't see much harm in picking defaults that might save newbies a little grief. Even if it just saves them one complete rebuild during the "learning process", that seems like a good thing to me. "This is a server oriented OS for experienced administrators", and yet every experienced person here says "Oh, no, I NEVER use the defaults!". If they're not using the defaults, then let's not say that the defaults are set with those people in mind. I do agree with the idea that "no one size will fit all", and that we should have a small list of likely configs (with descriptive names) instead of trying to agree on one perfect partition breakdown. I would not agree with the idea that "this is a server-oriented OS, so we should have no discussion of how to make it easier for less experienced user to use". [disclaimer: I'm a bit tired here and running on caffeine, so I hope I'm not sounding too wired-up about this. I do realize people are working on ways to improve things without getting bogged down in trying to find a one-size-fits-all solution...] --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 6:12: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.sindigit.pt (proxy.sindigit.pt [62.229.85.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B501537B5C9 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 06:11:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jm@proxy.sindigit.pt) Received: (from jm@localhost) by proxy.sindigit.pt (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA23980 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:11:38 GMT (envelope-from jm) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:11:37 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Monteiro?= To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: ahc0 errors Message-ID: <20000309141136.A23000@sindigit.pt> Reply-To: jm@sindigit.pt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG i've been experiencing several problems with an adaptec 2940u2w. the disk and controller are detected as: ahc0: rev 0x00 int a irq 11 on pci0.17.0 ahc0: aic7890/91 Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16/255 SCBs da1 at ahc0 bus 0 target 3 lun 0 da1: Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device da1: 80.000MB/s transfers (40.000MHz, offset 31, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled da1: 8761MB (17942584 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1116C) the kernel messages invariably are: proxy /kernel: ahc0: Data Parity Error Detected during address or write data phase proxy /kernel: ahc0: Received a Master Abort proxy /kernel: swap_pager: indefinite wait buffer: device: 0x20409, blkno: 7488, size: 4096 proxy /kernel: swap_pager: indefinite wait buffer: device: 0x20409, blkno: 7488, size: 4096 proxy /kernel: (da1:ahc0:0:3:0): SCB 0x1d - timed out in dataout phase, SEQADDR == 0x5d proxy /kernel: (da1:ahc0:0:3:0): BDR message in message buffer proxy /kernel: (da1:ahc0:0:3:0): no longer in timeout, status = 353 proxy /kernel: Unexpected busfree. LASTPHASE == 0xa0 proxy /kernel: SEQADDR == 0x163 i already tried: - added extra fan near the drive - shortened the cable distance between the disk and the controller, trying to avoid near sources of elecromagnetic interference - lowered the transfer rate on the u2w bus to 40 and 20MB/s - connected the disk to the uw bus and forced the bus termination on the disk itself my crash test has been cp'ing a 200M file to another dir in the same filesystem, although these errors usually appear randomly a couple of times per hour. i would like to have a definitive opinion about this before turning to the hardware supplier. tia, -- jose monteiro To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 7:14: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B381D37B6B4 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:14:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@ppp-207-193-0-141.kscymo.swbell.net) Received: from ppp-207-193-0-141.kscymo.swbell.net ([207.193.0.141]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FR500JAFUAWHR@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:13:46 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by ppp-207-193-0-141.kscymo.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) id JAA22647 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:13:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:13:40 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Subject: problems with compaq honoring warranty. To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: kc5vdj@swbell.net Message-id: <200003091513.JAA22647@ppp-207-193-0-141.kscymo.swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-files: The truth is that the X-Files is fiction X-Republican: The best kind!!! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #8: Sat Oct 30 00:56:56 CDT 1999 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG i thought i'd pass this along to the -lists. after having my compaq oem seagate cheetah commit hari-kari on monday, i have ran into some serious roadblacks getting warranty coverage on this drive i bought brand new in july. compaq, at the director level, refuses to honor warranties on any disk drive bought via ebay, even if it comes brand new in an unopened factory sealed box when you receive it. they refuse to honor the warranty even when you read off the manufucture date [03/27/99]. does anyone have any insight how i can get this drive replaced? this is only seven months into the two year compaq warranty. a call to seagate reveals this is the ST-118202LW, and that they *SOLD* warranty to compaq, and thus seagate cannot cover this. and that it has to be dealt with through compaq. is there anyone that can help me get the warranty coverage i am entitled to? jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ KC5VDJ - HF to 23cm KC5VDJ@NW0I.#NEKS.KS.USA.NOAM kc5vdj@swbell.net IC-706MkII, IC-T81A, HTX-202, HTX-212, HTX-404, KPC3+, PK-232MBX Grid: EM28px ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ET has one helluva sense of humor, always anal-probing right-wing schizos! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 7:22: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from aaz.links.ru (aaz.links.ru [193.125.152.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD0837B69C for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:21:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from babolo@links.ru) Received: (from babolo@localhost) by aaz.links.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06611; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:27:16 +0300 (MSK) Message-Id: <200003091527.SAA06611@aaz.links.ru> Subject: Re: ahc0 errors In-Reply-To: <20000309141136.A23000@sindigit.pt> from "[Jos_ Monteiro]" at "Mar 9, 0 02:11:37 pm" To: jm@sindigit.pt Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:27:16 +0300 (MSK) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Aleksandr A.Babaylov" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Jos_ Monteiro] writes: > i've been experiencing several problems with an adaptec 2940u2w. > > the disk and controller are detected as: > > ahc0: rev 0x00 int a irq 11 on pci0.17.0 > ahc0: aic7890/91 Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16/255 SCBs > da1 at ahc0 bus 0 target 3 lun 0 > da1: Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device > da1: 80.000MB/s transfers (40.000MHz, offset 31, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled > da1: 8761MB (17942584 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1116C) > > the kernel messages invariably are: > > proxy /kernel: ahc0: Data Parity Error Detected during address or write data phase > proxy /kernel: ahc0: Received a Master Abort > proxy /kernel: swap_pager: indefinite wait buffer: device: 0x20409, blkno: 7488, size: 4096 > proxy /kernel: swap_pager: indefinite wait buffer: device: 0x20409, blkno: 7488, size: 4096 > proxy /kernel: (da1:ahc0:0:3:0): SCB 0x1d - timed out in dataout phase, SEQADDR == 0x5d > proxy /kernel: (da1:ahc0:0:3:0): BDR message in message buffer > proxy /kernel: (da1:ahc0:0:3:0): no longer in timeout, status = 353 > proxy /kernel: Unexpected busfree. LASTPHASE == 0xa0 > proxy /kernel: SEQADDR == 0x163 > > i already tried: > > - added extra fan near the drive > - shortened the cable distance between the disk and the controller, > trying to avoid near sources of elecromagnetic interference > - lowered the transfer rate on the u2w bus to 40 and 20MB/s > - connected the disk to the uw bus and forced the bus termination on the > disk itself > > my crash test has been cp'ing a 200M file to another dir in the same > filesystem, although these errors usually appear randomly a couple of times per > hour. > > i would like to have a definitive opinion about this before turning to > the hardware supplier. I have the same problem with 2940UW controller and 9G Seagate UW disk FreeBSD are 3.3 and 3.4. High activity of several disk transfers in parallel is more dangerous than one transfer. Soft updates is more dangerous then sync mount. Can you try copy big file (600 Mb for examle) to your disk and then cmp copy with original? I have usually about 3 regions about 10 bytes long difference for each CDROM image when I use SCSI to store copy. Every copy has different difference (:-) -- @BABOLO http://links.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 7:30:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from aaz.links.ru (aaz.links.ru [193.125.152.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC6B337B77A for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:30:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from babolo@links.ru) Received: (from babolo@localhost) by aaz.links.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06949; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:36:39 +0300 (MSK) Message-Id: <200003091536.SAA06949@aaz.links.ru> Subject: Re: doscmd under FreeBSD 4.0 20000214-SNAP In-Reply-To: <084c01bf8928$62a968f0$0132a8c0@MELANGE> from "Sam Leffler" at "Mar 8, 0 10:01:53 am" To: sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:36:39 +0300 (MSK) Cc: danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Aleksandr A.Babaylov" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sam Leffler writes: ..... > If you want to learn about this sort of stuff get a copy of The Undocumented > PC. URL? > I'd be interested in talking to anyone that's successfully using doscmd to > do anything. I want to use it to run a DOS app that communicates with a > Panasonic KSU but can't seem to get keyboard input to work when using an X > window. I run simple programs but have no success to use directories. I have not any MS DOS fs and try to use over ufs. pcemu is more successful -- @BABOLO http://links.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 9:14:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9017C37B6A9 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:14:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@simplenet.com) Received: from simplenet.com (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA43267; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:14:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@simplenet.com) Message-ID: <38C7DBDA.B85782C1@simplenet.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:14:02 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0307 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tomb Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Clock Drift Problem References: <200003090012.AAA03679@sprout.cgf.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG tomb wrote: > > Has any else seen this? > > FreeBSD 3.4 Release. > > Intel motherboard. > > kernel.GENERIC > > The clock on one machine is drifting by 5 mins a day and on the other by 30 mins a > day. Common causes for this are overclocking and bad hardware. It's been covered very recently on -questions (where this question should have been sent) please check the archives. Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 9:14:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D92E37B7F1 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:14:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id JAA05571; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:14:20 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id JAA06947; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:14:19 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id KAA02050; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:14:07 -0700 Message-ID: <38C7DBF0.8828E5F7@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 10:14:24 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tomb Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Clock Drift Problem References: <200003090012.AAA03679@sprout.cgf.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG tomb wrote: > > Has any else seen this? > > FreeBSD 3.4 Release. > > Intel motherboard. > > kernel.GENERIC > > The clock on one machine is drifting by 5 mins a day and on the other by 30 mins a > day. > > I'm not running ntp. > > Any ideas? ntp & a GPS? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 9:16:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00D237B7D1 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:16:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id JAA05613; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:15:58 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id JAA07044; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:15:57 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id KAA02067; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:15:49 -0700 Message-ID: <38C7DC57.C642BCF5@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 10:16:07 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: "Koster, K.J." , "'Edward Gold'" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning References: <38C66E8E.67CD0475@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313957@l04.research.kpn.com> <200003090030.RAA04659@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <38C66E8E.67CD0475@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: > : Being able to configure vinum slices would be nice, too. Especially > : once Greg commits support for booting from vinum volumes. Think about > : booting from mirrored volumes for reliability. > > Having vinum support in sysinstall would cut into my consulting > business :-). Setting up a mirrored system is hard enough that people > are hiring consultants to do it. Tell me about it. Personally, I'd rather get rid of one or two of them. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 9:25:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com (parker-T1-2-gw.sf3d.best.net [209.157.165.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE3A37B681 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:25:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jas@flyingfox.com) Received: (from jas@localhost) by biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id JAA06634; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:08:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:08:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Shankland Message-Id: <200003091708.JAA06634@biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com> To: bsdknowledgeseeker@hotmail.com, K.J.Koster@kpn.com Subject: RE: freeBSD booting src info Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E45220131396D@l04.research.kpn.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "'BSDknowledge seeker'" asks: > Is there a document available which explains the freeBSD's > booting sequence - ie. the place where the kernel is mapped, > initialisation of the page tables, segment descriptors and so > on. If the relevant files are also mentioned, all the better. And "Koster, K.J." responds: > http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/internals.html Since I'm digging into this now also, let me point out that the above reference is a bit ... prolix. It does *not* address the specific issues bsdknowledgeseeker asked about: the place where the kernel is mapped, initialization of page tables, etc. For example, here is the entirety of what the above document has to say about boot2: boot2 is slightly more sophisticated, and understands the FreeBSD filesystem enough to find files on it, and can provide a simple interface to choose the kernel or loader to run. Since the loader is much more sophisticated, and provides a nice easy-to-use boot configuration, boot2 usually runs it, but previously it was tasked to run the kernel directly. If there is more detailed documentation somewhere, I'd be happy to receive a pointer to it. For now, I'm in UTSL mode. If I survive that, maybe I'll write something up. Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich staerker :-). Jim Shankland NLynx Systems, Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 9:54:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fleming.cs.strath.ac.uk (fleming.cs.strath.ac.uk [130.159.196.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC87837B770 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:54:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roger@cs.strath.ac.uk) Received: from cs.strath.ac.uk (posh.dmem.strath.ac.uk [130.159.202.3]) by fleming.cs.strath.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21589 Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:54:07 GMT Message-ID: <38C7E52B.30795BC0@cs.strath.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 17:53:47 +0000 From: Roger Hardiman Organization: University of Strathclyde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, My new i840 chipset motherboard has onboard networking. It ises the Intel chipset and the FXP driver detects it. However, it reports PHY Unknown PHY 17 type 2. on the 4.0-current 20000307 snapshot. Is there a quick fix for this? I'd really like to get networking going with this board. Thanks Roger -- Roger Hardiman roger@cs.strath.ac.uk roger@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 9:55:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E1A37B7D0 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:55:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (dcs@p10-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.11]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id CAA21104; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:55:00 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <38C7E527.75715700@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:53:43 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Shankland Cc: bsdknowledgeseeker@hotmail.com, K.J.Koster@kpn.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freeBSD booting src info References: <200003091708.JAA06634@biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jim Shankland wrote: > > boot2 is slightly more sophisticated, and understands > the FreeBSD filesystem enough to find files on it, and > can provide a simple interface to choose the kernel or > loader to run. > > Since the loader is much more sophisticated, and > provides a nice easy-to-use boot configuration, boot2 > usually runs it, but previously it was tasked to run > the kernel directly. > > If there is more detailed documentation somewhere, I'd be happy > to receive a pointer to it. For now, I'm in UTSL mode. If I > survive that, maybe I'll write something up. Was mich nicht > umbringt, macht mich staerker :-). Man pages? Though much of what was asked can only be found in source code. What would be the point in documenting how the memory is set up? -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them, One IP to bring them all and in the zone bind them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 9:59:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAF1E37B6C5 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:59:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA22124; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:55:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003091755.JAA22124@implode.root.com> To: Roger Hardiman Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Mar 2000 17:53:47 GMT." <38C7E52B.30795BC0@cs.strath.ac.uk> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:55:19 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Hi, >My new i840 chipset motherboard has onboard networking. >It ises the Intel chipset and the FXP driver detects it. > >However, it reports PHY Unknown PHY 17 type 2. >on the 4.0-current 20000307 snapshot. > >Is there a quick fix for this? I'd really like to get >networking going with this board. Can you look on the motherboard and find out what type of chip it uses? It should be one of: 82557, 82558, or 82559. Let me know. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 10:12:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fleming.cs.strath.ac.uk (fleming.cs.strath.ac.uk [130.159.196.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF3537B811 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:12:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roger@cs.strath.ac.uk) Received: from cs.strath.ac.uk (posh.dmem.strath.ac.uk [130.159.202.3]) by fleming.cs.strath.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22029 Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:12:18 GMT Message-ID: <38C7E96E.6C569AB3@cs.strath.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 18:11:58 +0000 From: Roger Hardiman Organization: University of Strathclyde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 References: <200003091755.JAA22124@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David > Can you look on the motherboard and find out what type of chip it uses? > It should be one of: 82557, 82558, or 82559. Let me know. The lid is off. It says GD82559 I wonder if we can get Jordan to allow a quick commit fix for this one. The board (from SuperMicro) is a top end server board. Roger To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 10:15:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from orthanc.ab.ca (orthanc.ab.ca [207.167.3.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0A1D37B772 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ab.ca) Received: from orthanc.ab.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orthanc.ab.ca (8.10.0.Beta11/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e29IF0q76492; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:15:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200003091815.e29IF0q76492@orthanc.ab.ca> To: Andrey Sverdlichenko Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Mar 2000 12:09:49 +0300." Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:15:00 -0700 From: Lyndon Nerenberg Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> "Andrey" == Andrey Sverdlichenko writes: >> /tmp softlink to /var/tmp (because having two tmp's is stupid) Andrey> What if /var can't be mounted after crash? /tmp should be Andrey> on root filesystem. Just create an underlying /var/tmp on the root filesystem so /tmp always has a directory to point to. --lyndon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 10:16:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5712E37B85B for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:16:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA02514; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:15:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ken) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:15:57 -0700 From: "Kenneth D. Merry" To: Roger Hardiman Cc: dg@root.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 Message-ID: <20000309111557.A2477@panzer.kdm.org> References: <200003091755.JAA22124@implode.root.com> <38C7E96E.6C569AB3@cs.strath.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38C7E96E.6C569AB3@cs.strath.ac.uk>; from roger@cs.strath.ac.uk on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 06:11:58PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 18:11:58 +0000, Roger Hardiman wrote: > David > > Can you look on the motherboard and find out what type of chip it uses? > > It should be one of: 82557, 82558, or 82559. Let me know. > > The lid is off. > It says GD82559 > > I wonder if we can get Jordan to allow a quick commit fix for this one. > The board (from SuperMicro) is a top end server board. Is this one of their SDRAM i840 boards? Does it have the memory corruption bug with the MRH-S? Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 11:11:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (c487804-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.1.51.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B60E37B63D for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:11:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02688; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:12:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <200003091912.LAA02688@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Roger Hardiman Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Mar 2000 17:53:47 GMT." <38C7E52B.30795BC0@cs.strath.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:12:54 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hi, > My new i840 chipset motherboard has onboard networking. > It ises the Intel chipset and the FXP driver detects it. > > However, it reports PHY Unknown PHY 17 type 2. > on the 4.0-current 20000307 snapshot. > > Is there a quick fix for this? I'd really like to get > networking going with this board. This is just a diagnostic message; the interface ought to work regardless. Have you tried it? -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 11:15: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E75AF37B594 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:14:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id LAA09161; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:14:46 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA23942; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:14:45 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id MAA03101; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:14:37 -0700 Message-ID: <38C7F82F.F7A6DE3E@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 12:14:55 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: kc5vdj@swbell.net Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: problems with compaq honoring warranty. References: <200003091513.JAA22647@ppp-207-193-0-141.kscymo.swbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jim Bryant wrote: > > is there anyone that can help me get the warranty coverage i am > entitled to? Your lawyer? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 11:27:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fleming.cs.strath.ac.uk (fleming.cs.strath.ac.uk [130.159.196.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE7537B86E; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:27:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roger@cs.strath.ac.uk) Received: from cs.strath.ac.uk (posh.dmem.strath.ac.uk [130.159.202.3]) by fleming.cs.strath.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23656 Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:27:10 GMT Message-ID: <38C7FAF9.A23BC553@cs.strath.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 19:26:49 +0000 From: Roger Hardiman Organization: University of Strathclyde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 References: <200003091912.LAA02688@mass.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi > > However, it reports PHY Unknown type 17 addr 2. > Mike wrote: > This is just a diagnostic message; the interface ought to work > regardless. Have you tried it? Oops. It works. I can ping the machine next to me. Pass me the pointy hat. Roger To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 12:10: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from galkom.galkom.com.pl (www.galkom.com.pl [195.205.99.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA1837B7DD for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:10:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkg@halicz.com.pl) Received: from win98 (pa20.rzeszow.ppp.tpnet.pl [212.160.6.20]) by galkom.galkom.com.pl (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA30647 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 21:09:57 +0100 Message-ID: <001701bf8a03$7cbc1860$9662cdc3@x2.pl> From: "Wiesiek Glod" To: Subject: 3.2Stable September 1999, Sysinstall problem ... Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 21:01:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF8A0A.9FCBC1A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF8A0A.9FCBC1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Motheboard - SL67EV chipset VIA683 DISK - IBM DPTA - 372050 (20,5 GB) Problem Sysinstall: Unable to make new root filesystem on /dev/rwd0s1a Command returned status 1. On diagnostic console: 'a' partition is unavailable Any information ? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D wkg@halicz.com.pl ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF8A0A.9FCBC1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Motheboard - SL67EV chipset=20 VIA683
 DISK - IBM DPTA - 372050 = (20,5=20 GB)
 
Problem Sysinstall:
 
 Unable to make new root = filesystem on=20 /dev/rwd0s1a
 Command returned status = 1.
 
On diagnostic console: 'a' = partition is=20 unavailable
 
 Any information = ?
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<= /FONT>
wkg@halicz.com.pl
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF8A0A.9FCBC1A0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 12:22:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D9837B782; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:22:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA22562; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 12:17:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003092017.MAA22562@implode.root.com> To: Roger Hardiman Cc: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Mar 2000 19:26:49 GMT." <38C7FAF9.A23BC553@cs.strath.ac.uk> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 12:17:34 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> > However, it reports PHY Unknown type 17 addr 2. > >> Mike wrote: >> This is just a diagnostic message; the interface ought to work >> regardless. Have you tried it? > >Oops. > >It works. >I can ping the machine next to me. > >Pass me the pointy hat. Actually, it doesn't completely work. Full-duplex won't work for example, since the driver has to know the PHY type in order to set the proper mode. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 14:34:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (mass.cdrom.com [204.216.28.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0772B37B87C; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:34:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00573; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:33:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <200003092233.OAA00573@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: dg@root.com Cc: Roger Hardiman , Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Mar 2000 12:17:34 PST." <200003092017.MAA22562@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 14:33:51 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> > However, it reports PHY Unknown type 17 addr 2. > > > >> Mike wrote: > >> This is just a diagnostic message; the interface ought to work > >> regardless. Have you tried it? > > > >Oops. > > > >It works. > >I can ping the machine next to me. > > > >Pass me the pointy hat. > > Actually, it doesn't completely work. Full-duplex won't work for example, > since the driver has to know the PHY type in order to set the proper mode. Hmm. I wouldn't have seen that, being on a hub. The part on the board here is: GD82559 L942SH98 There's what might be the PHY next to it (assuming it's not internal). MVT203011 CW 722490-001 I don't recognise the logo on this, unless it's a new/changed International Rectifier logo (looks like two diodes pointing at each other inside a circle and square). -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 15: 8:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3D637B899; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:08:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23063; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:04:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003092304.PAA23063@implode.root.com> To: Mike Smith Cc: Roger Hardiman , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Mar 2000 14:33:51 PST." <200003092233.OAA00573@mass.cdrom.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 15:04:17 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >here is: > >GD82559 >L942SH98 > >There's what might be the PHY next to it (assuming it's not internal). > >MVT203011 CW >722490-001 > >I don't recognise the logo on this, unless it's a new/changed >International Rectifier logo (looks like two diodes pointing at each >other inside a circle and square). The 82559 has an integrated PHY. Looks like someone has changed the identifier again. What type of motherboard is this on (sorry if I missed this in a previous message). -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 15: 9: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.aracnet.com (mail2.aracnet.com [216.99.193.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E91C37B7DD for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:08:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from beattie@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail2.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13445; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:09:02 -0800 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id PAA02590; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:11:18 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:11:18 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Beattie To: Lyndon Nerenberg Cc: Andrey Sverdlichenko , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning In-Reply-To: <200003091815.e29IF0q76492@orthanc.ab.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > >>>>> "Andrey" == Andrey Sverdlichenko writes: > > >> /tmp softlink to /var/tmp (because having two tmp's is stupid) > > Andrey> What if /var can't be mounted after crash? /tmp should be > Andrey> on root filesystem. > > Just create an underlying /var/tmp on the root filesystem so /tmp > always has a directory to point to. > which should probably be a symlink to a directory that is visable while /var is mounted, to make it easier to find and lost blocks and inodes, of be very careful when /var is not mounted. Brian Beattie | This email was produced using professional quality, beattie@aracnet.com | standards based software. Users of Microsoft beattie@aracnet.com | products or other substandard software should www.aracnet.com/~beattie | contact the author about receiving a Free upgrade to | FreeBSD or Linux. "FreeBSD: The power to serve" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 15:14:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (mass.cdrom.com [204.216.28.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F8AF37B8B6 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:14:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00513; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:14:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <200003092314.PAA00513@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: dg@root.com Cc: Roger Hardiman , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Mar 2000 15:04:17 PST." <200003092304.PAA23063@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 15:14:34 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >There's what might be the PHY next to it (assuming it's not internal). > > > >MVT203011 CW > >722490-001 > > > >I don't recognise the logo on this, unless it's a new/changed > >International Rectifier logo (looks like two diodes pointing at each > >other inside a circle and square). > > The 82559 has an integrated PHY. Looks like someone has changed the > identifier again. What type of motherboard is this on (sorry if I missed > this in a previous message). It's a Supermicro PIIIDM3, based on the i840 chipset. There's a small family of boards based on the same basic design from Supermicro. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 16:19:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from aaz.links.ru (aaz.links.ru [193.125.152.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626CE37B880; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 16:19:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from babolo@links.ru) Received: (from babolo@localhost) by aaz.links.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA27161; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 03:25:34 +0300 (MSK) Message-Id: <200003100025.DAA27161@aaz.links.ru> Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning In-Reply-To: <20000309001328.A33477@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> from "Nik Clayton" at "Mar 9, 0 00:13:28 am" To: nik@FreeBSD.ORG (Nik Clayton) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 03:25:33 +0300 (MSK) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Aleksandr A.Babaylov" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nik Clayton writes: > Recommended disk and partition layout > > In order to reduce space wastage, and provide a flexible partition layout > for future work, the following disk partition layout is recommended. > > First, you need three 'standard' filesystems, of roughly this size: > > / 50m > /var 50m > /usr 250m > > A 50m / should be sufficient for static /bin and /sbin, as well as /etc, > other configuration files, and a local /tmp. > > Similarly, a 50m /var covers most log files, assuming the machine isn't > doing anything too log intensive. Don't worry about the size of incoming > and outgoing mail spools, or the print spooler at the moment. > > Finally, a 250m /usr covers all the standard stuff, and leaves room for > expansion in the future. > > Now, create one more filesystem, > > /local/0 rest of the disk > > If you have any more disks, create 1 filesystem per disk, and arrange to > mount them as /local/1, /local/2, and so on. > > The known space fillers can then be moved on to /local/{0,1,2,...} as > necessary, and then symlinked back in to place. For example; > > mkdir -p /local/0/usr > mkdir -p /local/0/var > mkdir -p /local/0/home > cd /usr > mv src /local/0/usr > mv obj /local/0/usr > mv ports /local/0/usr > mv X11R6 /local/0/usr > ln -s /local/0/usr/* . > cd /var > mv mail /local/0/var > mv spool /local/0/var > ln -s /local/0/var/* . > > and so on. Adjust the disks you move stuff to, depending on how many disks > you have, and expected usage. > > For example, if you only have one disk, then /local/0/usr/{src,ports,obj} > and /local/0/home/ncvs[1] will all have to be on one disk. > > When you add a second disk, you will definitely want to move > /local/0/usr/obj to /local/1/usr/obj, and /local/0/home/ncvs to > /local/1/home/ncvs (and update their symlinks). This is because: > > 1. If you do a CVS checkout from /home/ncvs to /usr/src, two different > disks will be used, speeding things up considerably. > > 2. If you do a "make world", the source will be read from /usr/src, > on the first disk, and the compiled programs (and object files) > will be written to /usr/obj, on the second disk, and again, this > will speed things up. > > Problems with this approach > > By placing everything on one (or a few) large filesystems, you lose > finegrained control. > > For example, if /var/mail and /var/spool are symlinks to /local/0/var/mail > and /local/0/var/spool respectively, then there is the possibility that > large incoming e-mails can use up all the disk space, preventing anything > that requires /var/spool (such as lpd(8)) from working properly -- and vice > versa, as large print jobs may halt reception of incoming e-mail. > > To an extent, you can work around this problem with quotas. For example, > the mail system runs as group 'mail', so you can set a group quota for mail > to prevent it filling up the disk. Some daemons also have configuration > options to prevent them filling up the disk, such as the lpd(8) minfree > file. Yes, it's good. But it's better just mount partition on it's own place, no symlinks, such as: /dev/sd1s1f 3942238 2151773 1475086 59% /usr /dev/sd0s1g 985535 38016 868677 4% /usr/ports /dev/wd2g 2030095 1437551 430137 77% /usr/ports/distfiles /dev/sd0s1h 985535 155771 750922 17% /usr/src and /local is not the best plase for out of the hier(7) things. use special partition for mount points: /dev/ad4s2h 455 39 380 9% /mnt glip:/mnt/d 4053998 3356969 372710 90% /mnt/d /dev/ad0 1056751 1021265 35486 97% /mnt/w /dev/ad4s2e 16183272 1135371 13753240 8% /mnt/e where /mnt is ro mounted and mount points in /mnt (subdirectories) has 0777 rights: 1 drwxrwxrwx 2 root wheel 512 16 ĈĊ× 03:23 0/ 1 drwxrwxrwx 2 root wheel 512 16 ĈĊ× 03:23 1/ ..... 1 drwxrwxrwx 2 root wheel 512 16 ĈĊ× 03:23 x/ 1 drwxrwxrwx 2 root wheel 512 16 ĈĊ× 03:23 y/ 1 drwxrwxrwx 2 root wheel 512 16 ĈĊ× 03:23 z/ so give rights to mount (via sudo) and read/write msdos fs for all: /dev/fd0 /mnt/0 msdos rw,nosuid,noauto 0 0 with no risk that /mnt will be changed Another win in separating mounting points from usual hierarhy is that it is possible to work with stalled mounts. It is take place when mounting some unreliable carrier. -- @BABOLO http://links.ru/ -- @BABOLO http://links.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 17:20:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 2439237B92B; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BEC2E8155; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:20:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:20:31 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Oscar Bonilla , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler In-Reply-To: <20000308163057.W14279@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > I'm pretty sure this can be done a hell of a lot easier by using shared > libraries and using the enviornment variables LD_LIBRARY_PATH and > LD_PRELOAD, see the rtld manpage for more help. Yes, I've done this when trying to track down buffer overflows in libc..stick them in their own directory and use LD_LIBRARY_PATH, which tells the dynamic linker where to search. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 17:35:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E7837B90F; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:35:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA19310; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:55:23 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:55:23 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: "Aleksandr A.Babaylov" Cc: Nik Clayton , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysinstall 'A'uto partitioning Message-ID: <20000310005523.A18764@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20000309001328.A33477@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <200003100025.DAA27161@aaz.links.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <200003100025.DAA27161@aaz.links.ru>; from Aleksandr A.Babaylov on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 03:25:33AM +0300 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 03:25:33AM +0300, Aleksandr A.Babaylov wrote: > Yes, it's good. > But it's better just mount partition on it's own place, no symlinks, I disagree. > such as: > /dev/sd1s1f 3942238 2151773 1475086 59% /usr > /dev/sd0s1g 985535 38016 868677 4% /usr/ports > /dev/wd2g 2030095 1437551 430137 77% /usr/ports/distfiles > /dev/sd0s1h 985535 155771 750922 17% /usr/src In this example, you've hardcoded the size of /usr/ports, /usr/ports/distfiles, and /usr/src. What happens when the contents of these filesystems outgrow these limits? You can't grow (or shrink) a ufs filesystem. So you need to add another disk, and/or create symlinks in to another filesystem. > and /local is not the best plase for out of the hier(7) things. > use special partition for mount points: > /dev/ad4s2h 455 39 380 9% /mnt > glip:/mnt/d 4053998 3356969 372710 90% /mnt/d > /dev/ad0 1056751 1021265 35486 97% /mnt/w > /dev/ad4s2e 16183272 1135371 13753240 8% /mnt/e You can do that. The precise name of /local is immaterial. For example, you might want /mnt/local/ /mnt/nfs /mnt/smb /mnt/ext2fs and so on, depending on your precise requirements. The documentation I posted is primarily internal notes for myself (and my hopefully soon to be employees) rather than hard and fast rules that everyone has to follow. Hopefully, though, in those notes, people will get ideas as to how best to partition for their needs. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 18:11:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ns.internet.dk (ns.internet.dk [194.19.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFCD537B8FE for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:11:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leifn@neland.dk) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by ns.internet.dk (8.9.2/8.9.3) with UUCP id DAA24131 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 03:11:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from leifn@neland.dk) Received: from gina (gina.neland.dk [192.168.0.14]) by arnold.neland.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA75427 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:39:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from leifn@neland.dk) Message-ID: <021701bf8a31$89408200$0e00a8c0@neland.dk> Reply-To: "Leif Neland" From: "Leif Neland" To: Subject: pptpd / ppp trouble Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:39:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Leif Neland wrote: >=20 > > I'm trying to use MS-VPN using poptop. (pptpd) > >=20 > > It works nicely from home to my current at home, where both hosts = are on the same network, ,but not >> where the two hosts are on = different networks. > >=20 >=20 > Followup: From work to current at home fails too: > > ppp.log says repeately: > >=20 > > Mar 9 06:25:35 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: ACFCOMP[2] > > Mar 9 06:25:35 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: PROTOCOMP[2] > > Mar 9 06:25:35 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: ACCMAP[6] 0x00000000 > > Mar 9 06:25:35 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: MRU[4] 1500 > > Mar 9 06:25:35 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: MAGICNUM[6] 0x469c1c68 > > Mar 9 06:25:35 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: AUTHPROTO[4] 0xc023 (PAP) > > Mar 9 06:25:35 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: deflink: State change = Stopped --> Req-Sent > > Mar 9 06:25:38 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: deflink: SendConfigReq(1) = state =3D Req-Sent > > Mar 9 06:25:38 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: ACFCOMP[2] > > Mar 9 06:25:38 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: PROTOCOMP[2] > > Mar 9 06:25:38 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: ACCMAP[6] 0x00000000 > > Mar 9 06:25:38 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: MRU[4] 1500 > > Mar 9 06:25:38 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: MAGICNUM[6] 0x469c1c68 > > Mar 9 06:25:38 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: AUTHPROTO[4] 0xc023 (PAP) > > Mar 9 06:25:41 ns ppp[88344]: tun0: LCP: deflink: SendConfigReq(1) = state =3D Req-Sent > >=20 > > The windows machine just says "Verifying username and password". > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > default: set server 5431 qwerty set log Phase Chat Connect LCP IPCP CCP tun command tcp/ip set device /dev/cuaa0 set speed 115200 set redial 5+30-9999999 2 deny lqr set openmode active 2 pptp: enable chap enable proxy set ifaddr 10.0.0.1/0 10.0.0.2/0 255.255.255.0 0.0.0.0 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 20:16:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.khmere.com (216-59-86-175.usa2.flashcom.net [216.59.86.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9787D37B8BB; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:16:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nathan@khmere.com) Received: from khmere.com (ns4.khmere.com [216.59.86.177]) by ns3.khmere.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA47320; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:17:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38C877C6.DE957371@khmere.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 20:19:18 -0800 From: nathan@khmere.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.13 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" , "freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Sound for Intel and Alpha Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is the soundblaster support for FreeBSD good ? (both intel and alpha) if so does is support any of the SB pci cards ? Do the supported cards work on both platforms ? if so which ones ? Thier is no specific mention of sound card chip sets for freebsd on their web site thank you nathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 20:38:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A98437B885 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:38:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA90559; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:38:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:38:47 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Monteiro?= Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ahc0 errors In-Reply-To: <20000309141136.A23000@sindigit.pt> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Reply below .. saving detail On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, [iso-8859-1] José Monteiro wrote: > i've been experiencing several problems with an adaptec 2940u2w. > > the disk and controller are detected as: > > ahc0: rev 0x00 int a irq 11 on pci0.17.0 > ahc0: aic7890/91 Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16/255 SCBs > da1 at ahc0 bus 0 target 3 lun 0 > da1: Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device > da1: 80.000MB/s transfers (40.000MHz, offset 31, 16bit), Tagged Queueing Enabled > da1: 8761MB (17942584 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 1116C) > > the kernel messages invariably are: > > proxy /kernel: ahc0: Data Parity Error Detected during address or write data phase > proxy /kernel: ahc0: Received a Master Abort > proxy /kernel: swap_pager: indefinite wait buffer: device: 0x20409, blkno: 7488, size: 4096 > proxy /kernel: swap_pager: indefinite wait buffer: device: 0x20409, blkno: 7488, size: 4096 > proxy /kernel: (da1:ahc0:0:3:0): SCB 0x1d - timed out in dataout phase, SEQADDR == 0x5d > proxy /kernel: (da1:ahc0:0:3:0): BDR message in message buffer > proxy /kernel: (da1:ahc0:0:3:0): no longer in timeout, status = 353 > proxy /kernel: Unexpected busfree. LASTPHASE == 0xa0 > proxy /kernel: SEQADDR == 0x163 > > i already tried: > > - added extra fan near the drive > - shortened the cable distance between the disk and the controller, > trying to avoid near sources of elecromagnetic interference > - lowered the transfer rate on the u2w bus to 40 and 20MB/s > - connected the disk to the uw bus and forced the bus termination on the > disk itself > > my crash test has been cp'ing a 200M file to another dir in the same > filesystem, although these errors usually appear randomly a couple of times per > hour. These stills smell like bad termination. Triple check it against the manuals and the drive jumper settings, and try replacing the cable if you haven't already. It may be a bum drive. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 20:40:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF1237B8B9 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:40:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA90576; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:40:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:40:09 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: kc5vdj@swbell.net Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: problems with compaq honoring warranty. In-Reply-To: <200003091513.JAA22647@ppp-207-193-0-141.kscymo.swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Jim Bryant wrote: > i thought i'd pass this along to the -lists. > > after having my compaq oem seagate cheetah commit hari-kari on monday, > i have ran into some serious roadblacks getting warranty coverage on > this drive i bought brand new in july. > > compaq, at the director level, refuses to honor warranties on any disk > drive bought via ebay, even if it comes brand new in an unopened > factory sealed box when you receive it. they refuse to honor the > warranty even when you read off the manufucture date [03/27/99]. > > does anyone have any insight how i can get this drive replaced? this > is only seven months into the two year compaq warranty. a call to > seagate reveals this is the ST-118202LW, and that they *SOLD* warranty > to compaq, and thus seagate cannot cover this. and that it has to be > dealt with through compaq. I've had them refuse to even *answer questions* if you reinstall the OS (Winblows) on a cheapo Presario. We just wanted to know if it had a WinModem or not. :-( Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Mar 9 22:39:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47B037B8FE for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:39:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id RAA01255; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:08:20 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:08:19 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wiesiek Glod Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.2Stable September 1999, Sysinstall problem ... Message-ID: <20000310170819.C842@freebie.lemis.com> References: <001701bf8a03$7cbc1860$9662cdc3@x2.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <001701bf8a03$7cbc1860$9662cdc3@x2.pl> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 9 March 2000 at 21:01:22 +0100, Wiesiek Glod wrote: > Motheboard - SL67EV chipset VIA683 > DISK - IBM DPTA - 372050 (20,5 GB) > > Problem Sysinstall: > > Unable to make new root filesystem on /dev/rwd0s1a > Command returned status 1. > > On diagnostic console: 'a' partition is unavailable > > Any information ? Yes. Read http://www.lemis.com/questions.html. It'll tell you which mailing lists to send to. It'll also make some suggestions about how to get best results. You need to send this question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.org, but you'll need to give more details, like how you were performing the install. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 3: 2:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from omnix.net (omnix.net [195.154.168.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 10EF737BABE for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 03:02:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from didier@omnix.net) Received: (qmail 20393 invoked by uid 200); 10 Mar 2000 11:02:39 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 10 Mar 2000 11:02:38 -0000 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:02:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Didier Derny To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Is FreeBSD dead ? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek CDROM. (March 10 2000). I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or the single user evaluation of BSDI... Il FreeBSD dedicated to become the 'RedHat' of BSD (when you know the junk sold by redhat. I think it is time to think to something else NetBSD ? OpenBSD ? Linux (which one?) I've been using FreeBSD since August 1994 (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1) -- Didier Derny didier@omnix.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 3:24:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F5637B9C7 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 03:24:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12TNWW-000LL3-00; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:24:04 +0200 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:24:04 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Didier Derny Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Message-ID: <20000310132403.A80967@mithrandr.moria.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri 2000-03-10 (11:02), Didier Derny wrote: > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek > CDROM. (March 10 2000). > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. Let's hope your mailbox doesn't get filled with replies. Which announcement did you read? You really should read the daemonnews one, as it covers a lot of stuff that should reassure you. The slashdot interviews with Bob, Jordan, and Mike should also do so. In my discussions with the various stakeholders, I must say I'm confident of this move. > I think it is time to think to something else NetBSD ? OpenBSD ? Linux > (which one?) One of the things that I can assure you, is that if anything untoward occurs (which I'm sure will not) it's easy enough to just rename the project and carry on with the existing code. There's nothing that can be done to prevent it, and you'd basically have FreeBSD again. Walnut Creek doesn't own FreeBSD, so BSDI can't buy FreeBSD via Walnut Creek. So, no, FreeBSD certainly isn't dead. If anything, things will become even more lively! (: Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 3:25: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21AED37B99E for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 03:24:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12TNX2-000MpG-00; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:24:36 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Didier Derny Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:02:38 GMT." Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:24:36 +0200 Message-ID: <87745.952687476@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:02:38 GMT, Didier Derny wrote: > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek > CDROM. (March 10 2000). > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. You're going to feel like a real idiot when you actually read the announcement properly. Go back and read it through from beginning to end. :-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 3:28:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lindt.urgle.com (lindt.urgle.com [195.173.172.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E9A37B9C7 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 03:28:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@urgle.com) Received: from mike by lindt.urgle.com with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12TNag-0003nQ-00; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:28:22 +0000 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:28:22 +0000 From: Mike Bristow To: Didier Derny Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Message-ID: <20000310112822.A14575@lindt.urgle.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from didier@omnix.net on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 11:02:38AM +0000 X-Rated: KGB, explosion Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 11:02:38AM +0000, Didier Derny wrote: > Hi, > > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek > CDROM. (March 10 2000). > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. I can. cf RedHat selling RH CDs, but having the .iso images and all the RPMs downloadable. > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or > the single user evaluation of BSDI... I doubt it. If it starts to happen, well, there's a fairly good set of source we could use as a base which I've got lieing around on a HDD somewhere. I got it from cvsup3.uk.freebsd.org; you might have heard of them... > I think it is time to think to something else NetBSD ? OpenBSD ? Linux > (which one?) If I were you I'd wait for an actual problem before jumping ship. -- Mike Bristow, seebitwopie ``There's a lot to be said for shagging....'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 3:42: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iclub.nsu.ru (iclub.nsu.ru [193.124.222.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E354F37BA0F for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 03:40:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru) Received: from localhost (fjoe@localhost) by iclub.nsu.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10811; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:22:49 +0600 (NS) (envelope-from fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:22:49 +0600 (NS) From: Max Khon To: Didier Derny Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hi, there! On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Didier Derny wrote: > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek > CDROM. (March 10 2000). > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. > > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or > the single user evaluation of BSDI... > > Il FreeBSD dedicated to become the 'RedHat' of BSD (when you know the > junk sold by redhat. > > I think it is time to think to something else NetBSD ? OpenBSD ? Linux > (which one?) > > I've been using FreeBSD since August 1994 (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1) FUD /fjoe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 4: 3:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A3F137B9A5 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:03:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmeehan@easynet.co.uk) Received: (qmail 33921 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2000 12:03:17 -0000 Received: from frnk-3e355f8d.pool.mediaways.net (HELO scully) (62.53.95.141) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 10 Mar 2000 12:03:17 -0000 Message-ID: <005501bf8a88$35905520$030000ac@scully> From: "Johnathan Meehan" To: References: <87745.952687476@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:00:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, > You're going to feel like a real idiot when you actually read the > announcement properly. Go back and read it through from beginning to > end. :-) That is not fair, Sheldon. Didier has some concerns, and I cannot blame him. I'm reassured by the comments that have been made, both here and other places, but I am afraid that whilst not jumping ship, I will be watching the development of FreeBSD with a /very/ suspicious eye. I find it difficult to believe that a group of people who have worked so hard for so long to produce a superior product will walk away from it, or see it corrupted. However, on the other hand, when I hear managment type terms such as "features" and "adding value" with reference to the commercial offering I do wonder just how the FreeBSD project will be affected in _reality_ and not just in _theory_. I am personally waiting to hear more information, particularly from the commercial side, and perhaps then my suspicious mind may be relieved somewhat. I'm sure you chaps know what you are doing, but some of us believe that Eris is great friends with Murphy. Regards, Johnathan Meehan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 4:27:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301B537BA30 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:27:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12TOVa-0001Ks-00; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:27:10 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Johnathan Meehan Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:00:20 +0100." <005501bf8a88$35905520$030000ac@scully> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:27:10 +0200 Message-ID: <5137.952691230@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:00:20 +0100, Johnathan Meehan wrote: > That is not fair, Sheldon. Didier has some concerns, and I cannot > blame him. I guess what I wrote makes for a very harsh comment in isolation from the grin I had on my face while I was typing. :-) > I find it difficult to believe that a group of people who have worked so > hard for so long to produce a superior product will walk away from it, or > see it corrupted. What are their alternatives? Think about how the world is waking up to Open Source. Think about how companies are realizing that a small group of paid engineers simply can't keep up with a world-wide organization of contributors. What would you do if you didn't feel you could keep up? If BSD Inc. were to "buy out" FreeBSD with the sole purpose of reducing competition, they'd be a bunch of idiots. The volunteers that make FreeBSD great now would move on to something else and _that_ would soon become the new threat. However, if BSD Inc. were to use FreeBSD as the base platform and sell extra toys and service along with it, they'd benefit directly from the volunteer energy of the project. I think that there is only cause for concern if the folks at BSD Inc. are a bunch of idiots. Thus, I'm not concerned. ;-) > I'm sure you chaps know what you are doing, but some of us believe > that Eris is great friends with Murphy. I only contribute to FreeBSD because it's an Open Source project and because FreeBSD has the most impotus in the BSD family. If FreeBSD stops being free, I'd reconsider my willingness to contribute. I think BSD Inc. have acknowledged the impotus the FreeBSD Porject has and are looking to jump on the bandwagon. Looks like a really good thing for both BSD Inc. and the FreeBSD project. :-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 4:49:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from citadel.cequrux.com (citadel.cdsec.com [192.96.22.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B62737B9CC for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:49:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gram@cequrux.com) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by citadel.cequrux.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA02167 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:48:45 +0200 (SAST) Received: by citadel.cequrux.com via recvmail id 2071; Fri Mar 10 14:47:45 2000 Message-ID: <38C8EF55.87A3427@cequrux.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:49:25 +0200 From: Graham Wheeler Organization: Cequrux Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Any interest in 3c905c driver for 2.2.8? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I doubt anyone would be interested in this, but we still have lots of clients using 2.2.8 and have backported the xl driver from 3.3 to support the 3c905c card. If anyone is interested in this code let me know. -- Dr Graham Wheeler E-mail: gram@cequrux.com Director, Research and Development WWW: http://www.cequrux.com CEQURUX Technologies Phone: +27(21)423-6065 Firewalls/VPN Specialists Fax: +27(21)424-3656 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 5: 9:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C17D37BA2C for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 05:09:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA08994; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 05:41:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 05:41:20 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Graham Wheeler Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any interest in 3c905c driver for 2.2.8? Message-ID: <20000310054120.P14279@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <38C8EF55.87A3427@cequrux.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38C8EF55.87A3427@cequrux.com>; from gram@cequrux.com on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:49:25PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Graham Wheeler [000310 05:22] wrote: > I doubt anyone would be interested in this, but we still have lots > of clients using 2.2.8 and have backported the xl driver from 3.3 > to support the 3c905c card. If anyone is interested in this code let > me know. Please do make it avalable, I'll commit it to the 2.2.x branch if no one else does. thanks, -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 9:12:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B367337BA40 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:12:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from dbsys (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA12621; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:12:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200003101712.MAA12621@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:06:56 -0500 To: Sheldon Hearn From: Dennis Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <5137.952691230@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:27 PM 3/10/00 +0200, you wrote: > > >On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:00:20 +0100, Johnathan Meehan wrote: > >> That is not fair, Sheldon. Didier has some concerns, and I cannot >> blame him. > >I guess what I wrote makes for a very harsh comment in isolation from >the grin I had on my face while I was typing. :-) > >> I find it difficult to believe that a group of people who have worked so >> hard for so long to produce a superior product will walk away from it, or >> see it corrupted. > >What are their alternatives? Think about how the world is waking up to >Open Source. Think about how companies are realizing that a small group >of paid engineers simply can't keep up with a world-wide organization of >contributors. What would you do if you didn't feel you could keep up? They dont have to keep up. They just have to add some bells and whistles and package it (ala RedHat), which is probably what BSDI plans to do. They just want to get in on the Open Source Mania....they see RedHat drawing all that money with no real product....... As long as they keep their grubbly little hands off of it, and dont let the ciscos and uunets of the world (who both own a piece of bsdi) dictate policy, and as long as several key developers dont go work for BSDI (they would have already if they were going to I think)....it shouldnt be much different. >If BSD Inc. were to "buy out" FreeBSD with the sole purpose of reducing >competition, they'd be a bunch of idiots. The volunteers that make >FreeBSD great now would move on to something else and _that_ would soon >become the new threat. They can't stop a branch from forming...the question is who will run the branch? > >However, if BSD Inc. were to use FreeBSD as the base platform and sell >extra toys and service along with it, they'd benefit directly from the >volunteer energy of the project. >I think that there is only cause for concern if the folks at BSD Inc. >are a bunch of idiots. Thus, I'm not concerned. ;-) BSDI is a very poorly run company and the principals are the same. They have good engineers and terrible management. They've completely missed the boat all along, they have been trying to compete with Microsoft instead of Linux, which is a terrible mistake. ..I dont see any change that will make things any different. Their new CEO is an old world guy who's been there a long time...he's not an internet guy and not likely to do anything spectacular. Hes been their director of marketing through their market share freefall, so why will he do better as CEO? They've been buying full page ads for years and BSD is far from a household word. Unfortunately, as much as I like freebsd, FreeBSD isnt the answer. People want linux. Its a toy, and people like toys. Dennis Emerging Technologies, Inc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- http://www.etinc.com ISA and PCI T1/T3/V35/HSSI Cards for FreeBSD and LINUX Multiport T1 and HSSI/T3 UNIX-based Routers Bandwidth Management Standalone Systems Bandwidth Management software for LINUX and FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 9:26:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C1737BE12 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:26:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA93215; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:26:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Message-Id: <200003101726.MAA93215@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Dennis Cc: Sheldon Hearn , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Image-URL: http://www.transsys.com/louie/images/louie-mail.jpg From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... References: <200003101712.MAA12621@etinc.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:06:56 EST." <200003101712.MAA12621@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:26:05 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > As long as they keep their grubbly little hands off of it, and dont let the > ciscos and uunets of the world (who both own a piece of bsdi) dictate > policy, and as long as several key developers dont go work for BSDI (they > would have already if they were going to I think)....it shouldnt be much > different. As far as I know, UUNET had to divest their equity interest in BSDI at the time that we (UUNET) went public years ago (or maybe it was when we took some VC funding.. too long ago now.) The AT&T lawsuit was still simmering at the time, and that degree of uncertainty was deemed hostile to raising money. In retrospect, UUNET probably should have kept a piece. Over the past few years, UUNET has funded BSDI to add specific features (like doing the SPARC port) but that was a conceptually simple contracting arrangement that resulted in the code being available to all BSDI users. What's interesting in all this is to consider all the various Internet embedded application "wins" that FreeBSD and BSDI have. Just the ones that I can think about off the top of my head: Juniper Networks, Mirapoint, Whistle (FreeBSD) and Ascend in the GRF platform (BSDI). There are certainly others that escape me at the moment. BSDI has a nice embedded packaging of their product, and FreeBSD has gone in that direction too with things like PicoBSD. I think there's a big potential here to vigerously pursue that high-reliablity Internet infrastructure market with the combinations of the technology. In particular, BSDI can bring the support for those "vertical" applications for OEM's that want to buy it. These are obviously just my opinions, influenced by low blood sugar, and not necessarily those of UUNET's. louie (aka louie@UU.NET) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 9:35: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nyct.net (bsd4.nyct.net [204.141.86.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D65A637BC36 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:35:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) Received: from bsd1.nyct.net (mbac@bsd1.nyct.net [204.141.86.3]) by mail.nyct.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28177; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:34:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) Received: from localhost (mbac@localhost) by bsd1.nyct.net (8.8.8/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09393; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:34:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) X-Authentication-Warning: bsd1.nyct.net: mbac owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:34:58 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Bacarella To: Dennis Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... In-Reply-To: <200003101712.MAA12621@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >What are their alternatives? Think about how the world is waking up to > >Open Source. Think about how companies are realizing that a small group > >of paid engineers simply can't keep up with a world-wide organization of > >contributors. What would you do if you didn't feel you could keep up? > > They dont have to keep up. They just have to add some bells and whistles > and package it (ala RedHat), which is probably what BSDI plans to do. They > just want to get in on the Open Source Mania....they see RedHat drawing all > that money with no real product....... Red Hat contributes more than "bells and whistles" to Linux. They also pay many developers to work on Linux fulltime. They are certainly not Linux in it's entirety, but I see no reason to demean what they do. > >If BSD Inc. were to "buy out" FreeBSD with the sole purpose of reducing > >competition, they'd be a bunch of idiots. The volunteers that make > >FreeBSD great now would move on to something else and _that_ would soon > >become the new threat. > > They can't stop a branch from forming...the question is who will run the > branch? Or worse, if someone just forked FreeBSD right now in protest of the merge. > >I think that there is only cause for concern if the folks at BSD Inc. > >are a bunch of idiots. Thus, I'm not concerned. ;-) > BSDI is a very poorly run company and the principals are the same. They > have good engineers and terrible management. They've completely missed the > boat all along, they have been trying to compete with Microsoft instead of > Linux, which is a terrible mistake. ..I dont see any change that will make > things any different. Their new CEO is an old world guy who's been there a > long time...he's not an internet guy and not likely to do anything > spectacular. Hes been their director of marketing through their market > share freefall, so why will he do better as CEO? I think that FreeBSD has hurt them far more than Linux has. People who are in the BSD arena have probably already dismissed Linux for whatever reasons, and when their choices are FreeBSD or BSD/OS.. A BSDI represenative tried for days to convince me over the phone why I should pay for BSD/OS even though FreeBSD was free, or at least a CD order away, and FreeBSD even has source code. I asked about why we should buy a product that we don't have the source code to, and he simply said "because the (cr)hackers don't have our code." Yes. Although their marketing is terrible, competing against FreeBSD when your product is like FreeBSD, but costs more money, and does not come with source... you can't expect them to keep that up. > They've been buying full page ads for years and BSD is far from a household > word. Unfortunately, as much as I like freebsd, FreeBSD isnt the answer. > People want linux. Its a toy, and people like toys. Cram it. -MB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 10:23: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FDD37BA10 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:23:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id KAA29664; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:22:29 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id KAA19463; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:22:25 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id LAA10320; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:22:13 -0700 Message-ID: <38C93D6C.38B24702@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:22:36 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Didier Derny Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Didier Derny wrote: > > Hi, > > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek > CDROM. (March 10 2000). > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. > > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or > the single user evaluation of BSDI... Apparently you didn't read all of the press release. The BSDI technology will be folded into FreeBSD, which will remain free and open. What this really means is that there will be several more people paid to work on FreeBSD full time, and to bring exciting new technologies to FreeBSD 5.0. There will also be a professional support organization that can offer support contracts for FreeBSD if you wish to purchase one. I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement. If you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system. BSDidier has a nice ring to it. Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking with it for quite some time to come. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 10:37:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.errno.com (node-d1d4bd7a.powerinter.net [209.212.189.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE61337B9ED for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:37:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sam@errno.com) Received: from MELANGE (melange.errno.com [209.212.166.36]) by gw.errno.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA18493; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:32:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <114801bf8abf$0fc33060$0132a8c0@MELANGE> From: "Sam Leffler" To: "Didier Derny" , References: Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:32:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Didier Derny" To: Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 3:02 AM Subject: Is FreeBSD dead ? > Hi, > > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek > CDROM. (March 10 2000). > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. > > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or > the single user evaluation of BSDI... > Not sure what announcement you read (no URL provided), but if you look at http://www.bsdi.com/press/20000310.mhtml you'll see the following: "BSDI will continue to develop, enhance and distribute BSD/OS and FreeBSD according to the terms of the business-friendly, unencumbered Berkeley software license, which encourages development for open source software projects, embedded systems, specialized applications, information appliances and other operating system-enabled products. BSDI will expand and accelerate Walnut Creek CDROM's FreeBSD open source initiatives by sharing BSD/OS technical innovations with the FreeBSD Project and by providing this open source project with operational and technical support, marketing and funding. BSDI will continue to distribute packaged versions of FreeBSD and also plans to develop value-added products based on FreeBSD as well as to provide technical support, consulting services, educational services and training for FreeBSD customers. These steps are expected to promote and invigorate the BSD open source computing movement. The FreeBSD Project develops the popular FreeBSD operating system and aggregates and integrates contributed software from more than 5,000 developers worldwide." which clearly states that FreeBSD will benefit greatly from this action. FWIW I'm the person that was responsible for 4.2BSD (and lots of the code you still find in FreeBSD) and based on my information you've got things very wrong. Sam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 10:40:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60AAD37B505 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:40:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from dbsys (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12885 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:40:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200003101840.NAA12885@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:35:18 -0500 To: hackers@freebsd.org From: Dennis Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... In-Reply-To: References: <200003101712.MAA12621@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:34 PM 3/10/00 -0500, you wrote: > >> >What are their alternatives? Think about how the world is waking up to >> >Open Source. Think about how companies are realizing that a small group >> >of paid engineers simply can't keep up with a world-wide organization of >> >contributors. What would you do if you didn't feel you could keep up? Open Source is a lot of bunk. People want stuff that works. Linux is growing in popularity because since 2.2 came out it actually works well. Linux had the marketing in place and they are soaring. We sell 10 to 1 linux now. I was getting bloodied pushing FreeBSD. Its like selling tax custs to poor people. Its bad politics, no matter how right it is. the people buying linux servers from VAR research and the like dont care about source, they care about functinality. Thats why BSDI doesnt get it. its not about the source, its about the price. People perceive that BSD/OS and FreeBSD are substantially similar in functionalty, and freebsd is free. The source is only important to a tiny, tiny portion of the market. The hackers list is not the market...corporate america is the market. We all have source to the eepro driver but if DG doesnt fix it it doesnt get fixed. I'll take a driver that works anyday over the option to fix it myself. and so will most commercial entities. >> >> They dont have to keep up. They just have to add some bells and whistles >> and package it (ala RedHat), which is probably what BSDI plans to do. They >> just want to get in on the Open Source Mania....they see RedHat drawing all >> that money with no real product....... > >Red Hat contributes more than "bells and whistles" to Linux. They also >pay many developers to work on Linux fulltime. They are certainly not >Linux in it's entirety, but I see no reason to demean what they do. Im not demeaning it. But they have no product. Anyone can take what they've done and steal it, so as a company they have no security. Their support is meaningless (I've never gotten a response to any question,and I did purchase the full boxed product)....its all hoopla. Good marketing. Great marketing. But they dont have any assets. They made it easier to load, which launched linux, but there are now scads of competitors and there will be more. >> BSDI is a very poorly run company and the principals are the same. They >> have good engineers and terrible management. They've completely missed the >> boat all along, they have been trying to compete with Microsoft instead of >> Linux, which is a terrible mistake. ..I dont see any change that will make >> things any different. Their new CEO is an old world guy who's been there a >> long time...he's not an internet guy and not likely to do anything >> spectacular. Hes been their director of marketing through their market >> share freefall, so why will he do better as CEO? > >I think that FreeBSD has hurt them far more than Linux has. People who are >in the BSD arena have probably already dismissed Linux for whatever >reasons, and when their choices are FreeBSD or BSD/OS.. The "strategy" is not to sell to existing BSD-heads. Its to create incremental business. BSDI doesnt do all that advertsiing just to appeal to existing die hards. They are trying to get people to use their product instead of NT. Instead of Linux. The existing BSD market is too small. They have failed to convince the world that BSD is the answer. Outside of the US. linux is totally dominant. Although in the BSD arena you are right. I told the DOM of BSDI at a show that their decision to support our competitors card in their OS and shun everyone else cost them hundreds of sales a year, because all the BSD/OS people just switched to FreeBSD. They still dont get it. Whats really funny is that while I was in the booth, 3 people came up and asked if they had FreeBSD. They were noticably annoyed. DB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 10:51:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F9F37B91B for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:51:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from dbsys (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12916; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:49:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200003101849.NAA12916@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:44:32 -0500 To: Wes Peters , Didier Derny From: Dennis Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38C93D6C.38B24702@softweyr.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement. If >you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any >one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system. >BSDidier has a nice ring to it. > >Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking >with it for quite some time to come. Ever read Animal Farm? Remember that BSD/OS started out as "cheap with source" and grew into "just another OS company". Good ideas can turn bad very quickly. Dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 11:12:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F2637B8D9 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA34513; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:11:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:11:17 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey To: Dennis Cc: Wes Peters , Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: <200003101849.NAA12916@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Dennis wrote: > > >I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement. If > >you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any > >one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system. > >BSDidier has a nice ring to it. > > > >Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking > >with it for quite some time to come. > > Ever read Animal Farm? Remember that BSD/OS started out as "cheap with > source" and grew into "just another OS company". Good ideas can turn bad > very quickly. Instead of assuming that they are going to "go wrong", why not give them a chance to do it right? Everything is in place for exactly the right things to happen, I couldn't have planned it better myself, but some folks aren't happy unless they see conspiracy. When you see something wrong, you can speak up, but stop complaining about stuff that hasn't even happened yet. You could generate enough ill feelings and bad publicity to *cause yourself* the exact thing you're worried about. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 11:14: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4297D37BA8D for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:13:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25425; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:08:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003101908.LAA25425@implode.root.com> To: Dennis Cc: Wes Peters , Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:44:32 EST." <200003101849.NAA12916@etinc.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:08:03 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement. If >>you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any >>one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system. >>BSDidier has a nice ring to it. >> >>Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking >>with it for quite some time to come. > >Ever read Animal Farm? Remember that BSD/OS started out as "cheap with >source" and grew into "just another OS company". Good ideas can turn bad >very quickly. The is all just FUD. From the FreeBSD side of things, BSDI is going to opensource a bunch of their software that we can then integrate into FreeBSD. We're still very much in control of the FreeBSD development effort and what fundamentally comprises FreeBSD. In fact nothing really changes as far as the FreeBSD Project is concerned - it's the same core team, the same developers, and the same BSD-license source code. It's just as "free" as ever, and nothing is going to change that. BSDI may decide not to make all of their BSD/OS open-sourced, but that's their decision and that will in no way deminish what we have in FreeBSD today. As others have said, this is a win for everyone and will result in FreeBSD being a much better open-source OS in the future. I really hope that people will go and read the various press releases and look at this in an objective and rational frame of mind. If you do, then there is only one conclusion that you can get from the facts: This is a great thing for FreeBSD and our future couldn't be brighter. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 11:17:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com (parker-T1-2-gw.sf3d.best.net [209.157.165.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2995837B91B; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:17:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jas@flyingfox.com) Received: (from jas@localhost) by biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id LAA08987; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:00:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:00:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Shankland Message-Id: <200003101900.LAA08987@biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com> To: dg@root.com, msmith@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, roger@cs.strath.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <200003092314.PAA00513@mass.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hmm. That reminds me: I've also got a box with an onboard 8255X that isn't recognized. The relevant parts of "boot -v" output are: found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x1209, revid=0x09 class=02-00-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 intpin=a, irq=11 map[10]: type 1, range 32, base ffaff000, size 12 map[14]: type 1, range 32, base 0000ef00, size 6 map[18]: type 1, range 32, base ffac0000, size 17 [...] pci0: unknown card (vendor=0x8086, dev=0x1209) at 14.0 irq 11 This is on 4.0-20000214-CURRENT. I'm happy to provide further information, test patches, etc., if it's helpful. Jim Shankland NLynx Systems, Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 11:18:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hatfield.mail.easynet.net (hatfield.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6B69737BA6E for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:18:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmeehan@easynet.co.uk) Received: (qmail 18943 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2000 19:18:12 -0000 Received: from frnk-3e35518b.pool.mediaways.net (HELO scully) (62.53.81.139) by hatfield.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 10 Mar 2000 19:18:12 -0000 Message-ID: <012e01bf8ac4$f7ea1700$030000ac@scully> From: "Johnathan Meehan" To: References: <200003101849.NAA12916@etinc.com> Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 20:15:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi y'all, > "People perceive that BSD/OS > and FreeBSD are substantially similar in functionalty, and freebsd is free. > The source is only important to a tiny, tiny portion of the market. The > hackers list is not the market...corporate america is the market." (Dennis) Some of us live outside America, Dennis - you may have noticed that great hulking mass on the other side of the planet. We like to call it "Europe". ;-) *runs for cover* There's a good market here too, you know. Interest in *BSD over here is actually quite strong. The reason that Linux is so popular (especially in Germany) is actually because of SUSE, and not RedHat. Sorry, but I wanted to make the point because, basically, RedHat suck. Further, most of the market is actually domestic (Quake, although it runs better under Windoze), although I accept the intonation toward business. > Ever read Animal Farm? Remember that BSD/OS started out as "cheap with > source" and grew into "just another OS company". Good ideas can turn bad > very quickly. (Dennis) Yeah. As I wrote earlier, I will wait until I get my grubby mitts on some more information before I decide where exactly I stand, but I am still struggling to see how BSD, Inc. are going to benefit from all of this. You see, earlier, Sheldon said: "However, if BSD Inc. were to use FreeBSD as the base platform and sell extra toys and service along with it, they'd benefit directly from the volunteer energy of the project." OK, fair enough. Service - fine. Still two products sharing a common source tree, but if you pay money you get service. Cool. That actually sounds rather good to me, and removes one of the main barriers for many corporate suits steering away from FreeBSD. The best of both worlds, as it were. But it is the toys thing that is confusing me. Before you tell me to go off and read things, I've read lots of things. "They" aren't really saying that much, to be honest. Which is a surprise, because normally "they" never shut up. Could somebody clear this up for me? If FreeBSD is still going to go along doing what it does, then what happens if I write a device driver for WhizzoNewProduct(TM), that the commercial side is developing as an "added value feature"? Say, for example, I beat them to the punch. As pointed to earlier, it seems to be felt that BSD, Inc are coming along for the ride, because they cannot keep up with worldwide development. So, how has that suddenly changed? Can we conclude that it is just a marketing gimmick? I am concerned about a more cancerous turn of events. As I said earlier, I think we have to see what happens in RL before we berate people in the theoretical ring. The simple fact of the matter, boys, is that those of you quick to jump to the defence of events have no idea what is really going to happen. If you do, then could you tell who is going to win the 5:30 at Kempston tomorrow? Thanks, Johnathan Meehan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 11:19:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA1737B91B for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:19:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25464; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:14:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003101914.LAA25464@implode.root.com> To: Dennis Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:35:18 EST." <200003101840.NAA12885@etinc.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:14:57 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >instead of NT. Instead of Linux. The existing BSD market is too small. They >have failed to convince the world that BSD is the answer. Outside of the >US. linux is totally dominant. I'm not sure where you get your market demographics, but at least in Japan, FreeBSD is on par with Linux in popularity. If we had even half of the success in the US that we've enjoyed in Japan, then we'd be a lot further along in mindshare. But all of this speaks to the past and doesn't consider what may be ahead. It's true that BSD in general has sucked at marketing. One of the primary goals with the new company is to change that. In time we'll know if this was just wishful thinking. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 11:27: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 026BF37BAF1; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:26:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25494; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:22:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003101922.LAA25494@implode.root.com> To: Jim Shankland Cc: msmith@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, roger@cs.strath.ac.uk Subject: Re: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:00:38 PST." <200003101900.LAA08987@biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:22:15 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Hmm. That reminds me: I've also got a box with an onboard >8255X that isn't recognized. The relevant parts of "boot -v" >output are: > >found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x1209, revid=0x09 > class=02-00-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 > subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 > intpin=a, irq=11 > map[10]: type 1, range 32, base ffaff000, size 12 > map[14]: type 1, range 32, base 0000ef00, size 6 > map[18]: type 1, range 32, base ffac0000, size 17 > >[...] > >pci0: unknown card (vendor=0x8086, dev=0x1209) at 14.0 irq 11 ^^^^^ Don't know what that is, but's not a part that is supported by the fxp driver. It would help if you could find out the part number (8255X isn't sufficient since it isn't really just one series - some of the parts are similar, and others are completely different). -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 11:36:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 936B637B8D9 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:36:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25556; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:32:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003101932.LAA25556@implode.root.com> To: "Johnathan Meehan" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2000 20:15:06 +0100." <012e01bf8ac4$f7ea1700$030000ac@scully> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:32:07 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Could somebody clear this up for me? If FreeBSD is still going to go along >doing what it does, then what happens if I write a device driver for >WhizzoNewProduct(TM), that the commercial side is developing as an "added >value feature"? Say, for example, I beat them to the punch. As pointed to Simple answer: BSD, Inc. loses. What BSD, Inc. tries to do in the value-add arena is entirely their problem and if FreeBSD developers develop something that conflicts with BSD, Inc.'s value-add, then tough - BSD, Inc. will have to go and find another value-add. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 11:52:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com (parker-T1-2-gw.sf3d.best.net [209.157.165.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B0E37B78F for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:52:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jas@flyingfox.com) Received: (from jas@localhost) by biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id LAA09228; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:36:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:36:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Shankland Message-Id: <200003101936.LAA09228@biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com> To: dg@root.com Subject: Re: Onboard Intel fxp network chip, unknown PHY 17 type 2 Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200003101922.LAA25494@implode.root.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I wrote: >Hmm. That reminds me: I've also got a box with an onboard >8255X that isn't recognized. The relevant parts of "boot -v" >output are: > >found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x1209, revid=0x09 > class=02-00-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0 > subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0 > intpin=a, irq=11 > map[10]: type 1, range 32, base ffaff000, size 12 > map[14]: type 1, range 32, base 0000ef00, size 6 > map[18]: type 1, range 32, base ffac0000, size 17 > >[...] > >pci0: unknown card (vendor=0x8086, dev=0x1209) at 14.0 irq 11 ^^^^^ And David Greenman responds: > Don't know what that is, but's not a part that is supported by > the fxp driver. It would help if you could find out the part > number (8255X isn't sufficient since it isn't really just one > series - some of the parts are similar, and others are > completely different). Yes, sorry, "8255X" was a little vague, wasn't it? It appears to be an 82559ER -- see also http://developer.intel.com/design/network/82559er.htm Jim Shankland NLynx Systems, Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 12: 7:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5967C37BAF2 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA73217; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:07:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA17522; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:06:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200003102006.NAA17522@harmony.village.org> To: Didier Derny Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:02:38 GMT." References: Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:06:50 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Didier Derny writes: : I've been using FreeBSD since August 1994 (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1) I think you are wrong. Dead wrong. This will allow the WC to pump more money into the FreeBSD organization to fix some of the glaring problems that we have now. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 12: 9:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.netcom.com (freebsd.netcom.com [198.211.79.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C34D137BB03 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:09:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bugs@freebsd.netcom.com) Received: (from bugs@localhost) by freebsd.netcom.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id OAA10490 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:15:46 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Hittinger Message-Id: <200003102015.OAA10490@freebsd.netcom.com> Subject: re: Is FreeBSD dead ? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:15:46 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD won't be dead until they pry the source code from our cold dead fingers :-) Seriously, as one of the people who saw the potential for FreeBSD in the commercial world back in '94 just prior to the release of 2.0-BETA I do have to say that this is "the next level" that FreeBSD must go to. Regardless of how you feel about the BSD deal, you do at least recognize what the commercialization of Linux under various stock symbols means in the long run to us? Obviously newbieSD is heading in that direction - to IPO and gain funds. This is the next level and we will all judge the results based on what they do with the funds, any commercial partnership agreements etc. If its just a money grab, shame on them. If we don't go to the next level, shame on us. There are a lot of hardware companies that had invested substantially in BSD 4.3 knockoffs and Mach kernel knockoffs. The natural upgrade path for those development efforts is a commercialized version of FreeBSD (imho). There are a lot of sites that are still using BSD variants that have refused to upgrade to the more favored SYSV knockoffs, the natural upgrade path for those is a commercialized version of FreeBSD (imho). There are hardware vendors with very high end multi-processor configurations with boo-quoo memory etc. A natural upgrade path for those vendors (when they finally give up on their own "way-behind-the-curve" unix variant) is to move towards a commercialized version for FreeBSD (imho). They may try Linux, but is Linux "high-end-performance-ready"? As is most things, this is good news only if the management and vision of the newBSD strikes the right balance of fun, risky kernel schemes, stability, and PR spin. If they botch it we've still got our CD's from days gone by. The jinnee cannot be put back in the bottle. One has to say Hurrah! for that. I'm quite interested in this new direction and will be watching what they do - looking for that great idea that I overlooked. I very much hope that this is not a money grab dressed in the illusion of going to the next level. If they start rocking how many of us wouldn't want to be on board? Later Mark Hittinger Earthlink!Mindspring!Netcom!Dallas bugs@freebsd.netcom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 12:27:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6EA937BC69 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:27:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA42561; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:27:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Didier Derny Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:02:38 GMT." Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:27:49 -0800 Message-ID: <42558.952720069@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. And I can't imagine how *anyone* could take this perspective given any of the stuff they've read so far. FreeBSD will remain, as I have gone to great pains to state in every interview I've granted, COMPLETELY UNCHANGED as far as being free and open is concerned. How could BSDI *not* let FreeBSD be free, perhaps I should ask you that? You know of some special way of herding cats that's been hitherto undiscovered, perhaps? > I've been using FreeBSD since August 1994 (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1) If you think it's possible to bend the FreeBSD project to anyone's corporate will then you've never even come close to understanding who we are or what we stand for. That's a shame since one would think 6 years to be more than enough time to gain such an understanding. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 12:57:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from camus.cybercable.fr (camus.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E5EB237BFB0 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:57:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from herbelot@cybercable.fr) Received: (qmail 21878469 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2000 20:57:28 -0000 Received: from d016.paris-30.cybercable.fr (HELO cybercable.fr) ([212.198.30.16]) (envelope-sender ) by camus.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 10 Mar 2000 20:57:28 -0000 Message-ID: <38C960E2.3D58BD4B@cybercable.fr> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:53:54 +0100 From: "Thierry.herbelot" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? References: <42558.952720069@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > [SNIP] > > If you think it's possible to bend the FreeBSD project to anyone's > corporate will then you've never even come close to understanding who > we are or what we stand for. That's a shame since one would think 6 > years to be more than enough time to gain such an understanding. > > - Jordan Then, what are the benefits for both parties ? For the FreeBSD project : - many more supported platforms (Sparc, PowerPC, Arm ?) - better Intel SMP ? - new developpers ? - increased credibility via the support network of BSDi ? For BSD/OS : - better exposure thanks to OpenSource ? - Yahoo dollars ? - access to a greater community of **volunteer** testers ? TfH (This is absolutely not a flame bait : I'm very happy to imagine I could eventually get for-pay support for FreeBSD machines at work) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- Thierry Herbelot /"\ ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN \ / AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS mailto:herbelot@cybercable.fr X PAS DE HTML http://perso.cybercable.fr/herbelot / \ DANS LES COURRIELS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 13:47:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E436037BACF for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:47:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA43169; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:47:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Thierry.herbelot" Cc: Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:53:54 +0100." <38C960E2.3D58BD4B@cybercable.fr> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:47:38 -0800 Message-ID: <43166.952724858@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > For the FreeBSD project : > - many more supported platforms (Sparc, PowerPC, Arm ?) > - better Intel SMP ? > - new developpers ? > - increased credibility via the support network of BSDi ? Hopefully all of those things, though just days after the merger is no time to be making promises either. All I can say is that each and every one of the things you mention have been discussed in positive terms. > For BSD/OS : > - better exposure thanks to OpenSource ? > - Yahoo dollars ? > - access to a greater community of **volunteer** testers ? All these things and: - the ability to provide support, training and consulting services to a much larger market - More direct sharing of open source technologies and being able to leverage some of the rapid pace of innovation there; it's not just our testers which are valuable. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 13:50:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from camus.cybercable.fr (camus.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B7B9837BC6C for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:50:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from herbelot@cybercable.fr) Received: (qmail 21853038 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2000 21:50:48 -0000 Received: from d016.paris-30.cybercable.fr (HELO cybercable.fr) ([212.198.30.16]) (envelope-sender ) by camus.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 10 Mar 2000 21:50:48 -0000 Message-ID: <38C96D62.AA014236@cybercable.fr> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 22:47:14 +0100 From: "Thierry.herbelot" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? References: <43166.952724858@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > For the FreeBSD project : > > - many more supported platforms (Sparc, PowerPC, Arm ?) > > - better Intel SMP ? > > - new developpers ? > > - increased credibility via the support network of BSDi ? > > Hopefully all of those things, though just days after the merger is no > time to be making promises either. All I can say is that each and > every one of the things you mention have been discussed in positive > terms. Will there be some kind of "business-like" presentation of all the goodies which will comme from this merge of codebases ? (BSD-mergemania for Dummies (TM) ?) TfH > [SNIP] > > - Jordan -- Thierry Herbelot /"\ ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN \ / AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS mailto:herbelot@cybercable.fr X PAS DE HTML http://perso.cybercable.fr/herbelot / \ DANS LES COURRIELS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 14: 0:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1009C37BD8E for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:00:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e2ALxwh14183; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:59:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:59:58 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Didier Derny Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Didier Derny wrote: > Hi, > > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek > CDROM. (March 10 2000). > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. > the strategy as far as this was concerned was outlined...I suggest you read the interview with Bob and Jordan.... > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or > the single user evaluation of BSDI... > > Il FreeBSD dedicated to become the 'RedHat' of BSD (when you know the > junk sold by redhat. actually I think generally that this will improve the quality of some stuff like SMP support, etc. We can hope. The verdict isn;t out yet, however, I'm cautiously optimistic. > > I think it is time to think to something else NetBSD ? OpenBSD ? Linux > (which one?) > > I've been using FreeBSD since August 1994 (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1) > I've been using FreeBSD since 2.1.5, and I've met and talked to jkh enough times to know that he cares what happens to the project. He also would not be talking about this in such a positive light if it were not good. If theres anyone I trust as far as this is concerned, its Jordan. And this should even bring some of the people who were jkh's biggest critics to some kind of happy medium, we've got some corporate backing besides Walnut Creek and finally making news. This is a good thing in itself. Like I said, lets be cautiously optimistic about this. lets see what happens. remember if it gets really bad you *know* there will be a spinoff. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 14:10: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C337B37BCF1; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:09:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA08684; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:09:25 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000310225221.00967e80@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:04:26 +0100 To: Mark Hittinger From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003102015.OAA10490@freebsd.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 14:15 10.03.00 -0600, you wrote: > >FreeBSD won't be dead until they pry the source code from our cold dead >fingers :-) > >There are a lot of hardware companies that had invested substantially in >BSD 4.3 knockoffs and Mach kernel knockoffs. The natural upgrade path for >those development efforts is a commercialized version of FreeBSD (imho). > >There are a lot of sites that are still using BSD variants that have refused >to upgrade to the more favored SYSV knockoffs, the natural upgrade path for >those is a commercialized version of FreeBSD (imho). > >There are hardware vendors with very high end multi-processor configurations >with boo-quoo memory etc. A natural upgrade path for those vendors (when they >finally give up on their own "way-behind-the-curve" unix variant) is to move >towards a commercialized version for FreeBSD (imho). They may try Linux, but >is Linux "high-end-performance-ready"? Hi! Well, there is Turbolinux, which claims to do that. Also there are some projects in clustering. SuSe is selling some clusters already (got to see a small version of that at Cebit) Also, those very big installations use some kind of special Unix spinoff, something like IRIX, sold for specialized hardware, and paying big $$ for. Yes, it is a big chance to get rid of the reputation as being without support, which is very important to the industry. Well, when you can do things yourself, then its ok (Meaning that they have qualified personnel already). But when you can't, and especially smaller businesses cannot, then you have to pay somebody else to do that. ANd thats the point, then they ask what is when some problem occurs. A company like M$ or Sun can be sued at least, at least you can point in one direction and say: Hey, I paid money for that, and you have to fix those bugs and help me install the OS, if somethings goes wrong. Thats the things FreeBSD lacked a bit in the past. And if they see only some small companies offering support on their own as consultants, they decide otherwise. There is a saying: Nobody ever gets blamed for choosing IBM. Thus meaning: If you do what everybody else does, its alright. If you buy Windows, you know about the problems with it, but as everybody uses it, its common practice. But if you stray from mainstream, you get hit very quick if something hickups or even seems as it might like to hickup in the next few hours... Regards Olaf Hoyer P.S:lets take this to -chat -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 14:38:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422B037B7BF for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:38:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id OAA06615; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:37:09 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id OAA05116; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:37:08 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id PAA11799; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:36:54 -0700 Message-ID: <38C9791D.AB1F9AA8@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:37:17 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dennis Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... References: <200003101712.MAA12621@etinc.com> <200003101840.NAA12885@etinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dennis wrote: > > Open Source is a lot of bunk. People want stuff that works. Linux is > growing in popularity because since 2.2 came out it actually works well. > Linux had the marketing in place and they are soaring. We sell 10 to 1 > linux now. I was getting bloodied pushing FreeBSD. Its like selling tax > custs to poor people. Its bad politics, no matter how right it is. Linux is growing in popularity because everyone is talking about it. Most of the people who buy Linux, or any other technology for that matter, have NO ability to evaluate functionality and just follow what they read in their selective set of magazines. A better advertising budget will do wonders for FreeBSD; everyone seriously involved with FreeBSD understands this even if you don't. > We all have source to the eepro driver but if DG doesnt fix it it doesnt > get fixed. I'll take a driver that works anyday over the option to fix it > myself. and so will most commercial entities. Bzzt! Dennis, shut up and stop FUDding about. The eepro driver got fixed for 3.1 because I fixed it with DG's help. This is exactly the same as it has always been in FreeBSD, and in Linux; you can fix it yourself or you can pay someone else to fix it. The only thing that has changed is a more widespread, professional offering of people you can turn to when you need to get something fixed and have nothing to offer except money. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 14:47:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-198-202.guate.net [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B509437B8F2; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:47:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA93449; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:44:28 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:44:28 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Oscar Bonilla , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler Message-ID: <20000310164428.A89006@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <20000308163057.W14279@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 05:20:31PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > I'm pretty sure this can be done a hell of a lot easier by using shared > > libraries and using the enviornment variables LD_LIBRARY_PATH and > > LD_PRELOAD, see the rtld manpage for more help. > > Yes, I've done this when trying to track down buffer overflows in > libc..stick them in their own directory and use LD_LIBRARY_PATH, which > tells the dynamic linker where to search. > $ echo $LD_LIBRARY_PATH/ /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/libc/ $ echo $LD_PRELOAD /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/libc/libc.so.4 $ make cc -g -DYP -DFreeBSD -Wall -pedantic -ansi -o nss-test -I../../libc/include nss-test.c /tmp/ccy93427.o: In function `main': /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/tests/libc/nss-test.c(.text+0xb0): undefined reference to `nsdispatch' *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/tests/libc. $ at this point I switch makefiles to use static building and... $ make cc -g -DYP -DFreeBSD -Wall -pedantic -ansi -c -I../../libc/include nss-test.c cc -g -nostdlib -static -L../../libc -o nss-test nss-test.o ../../csu/i386-elf/crt1.o ../../csu/i386-elf/crti.o -lc $ but when I run the binary... $ ./nss-test files called files called retval = 1 NS_SUCCESS Bus error (core dumped) $ am I doing something wrong? BTW... I've ported the Name Service Switch from NetBSD to FreeBSD and it's working on my laptop right now. However, I need some help moving all the get*by* functions in the C library to use the new nsdispatch function, especially for the NIS code... who should I talk to... anyone interested on seeing some patches? regards, -oscar -- pgp public key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu pgp fingerprint: 6D 18 8C 90 4C DF F0 4B DF 35 1F 69 A1 33 C7 BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 14:56: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B164C37BB08; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:55:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA23042; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:27:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:27:37 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Oscar Bonilla Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler Message-ID: <20000310152737.J14279@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000308163057.W14279@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000310164428.A89006@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000310164428.A89006@fisicc-ufm.edu>; from obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 04:44:28PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Oscar Bonilla [000310 15:19] wrote: > On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 05:20:31PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > I'm pretty sure this can be done a hell of a lot easier by using shared > > > libraries and using the enviornment variables LD_LIBRARY_PATH and > > > LD_PRELOAD, see the rtld manpage for more help. > > > > Yes, I've done this when trying to track down buffer overflows in > > libc..stick them in their own directory and use LD_LIBRARY_PATH, which > > tells the dynamic linker where to search. > > > > $ echo $LD_LIBRARY_PATH/ > /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/libc/ I think you'll want LD_LIBRARY_PATH to be: /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/libc/:/usr/lib:/usr/local/lib > $ echo $LD_PRELOAD > /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/libc/libc.so.4 > $ make > cc -g -DYP -DFreeBSD -Wall -pedantic -ansi -o nss-test -I../../libc/include nss-test.c > /tmp/ccy93427.o: In function `main': > /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/tests/libc/nss-test.c(.text+0xb0): undefined reference to `nsdispatch' > *** Error code 1 > > Stop in /usr/home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/tests/libc. > $ > > at this point I switch makefiles to use static building and... please use the dynamic, it's a hell of a lot easier. > > $ make > cc -g -DYP -DFreeBSD -Wall -pedantic -ansi -c -I../../libc/include nss-test.c > cc -g -nostdlib -static -L../../libc -o nss-test nss-test.o ../../csu/i386-elf/crt1.o ../../csu/i386-elf/crti.o -lc > $ > > but when I run the binary... > > $ ./nss-test > files called > files called > retval = 1 > NS_SUCCESS > Bus error (core dumped) > $ > > am I doing something wrong? probably, but without a traceback it's going to be hard to find out exactly what. > > BTW... I've ported the Name Service Switch from NetBSD to FreeBSD and it's > working on my laptop right now. However, I need some help moving all the > get*by* functions in the C library to use the new nsdispatch function, > especially for the NIS code... who should I talk to... anyone interested on > seeing some patches? Of course we are, please file a PR when you think it's pretty much completed or email -hackers if you need/want advice. :) -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 15:28:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-198-202.guate.net [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B309337B926; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:28:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA93748; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:27:06 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:27:06 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Oscar Bonilla , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler Message-ID: <20000310172706.A93660@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <20000308163057.W14279@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000310164428.A89006@fisicc-ufm.edu> <20000310152737.J14279@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <20000310152737.J14279@fw.wintelcom.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 03:27:37PM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > I think you'll want LD_LIBRARY_PATH to be: > /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/libc/:/usr/lib:/usr/local/lib I don't see why since the only library I use is libc. Anyway, I tried just for kicks and still got the same error. $ echo $LD_LIBRARY_PATH /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/libc:/usr/lib:/usr/local/lib $ echo $LD_PRELOAD /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/libc/libc.so.4 $ make cc -g -DYP -DFreeBSD -Wall -pedantic -ansi -o nss-test -I../../libc/include nss-test.c /tmp/ccE93722.o: In function `main': /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/tests/libc/nss-test.c(.text+0xb0): undefined reference to `nsdispatch' *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/tests/libc. > please use the dynamic, it's a hell of a lot easier. sure, as soon as it works I'll use it ;) > probably, but without a traceback it's going to be hard to find > out exactly what. > $ cp Makefile.static Makefile $ make cc -g -DYP -DFreeBSD -Wall -pedantic -ansi -c -I../../libc/include nss-test.c cc -g -nostdlib -static -L../../libc -o nss-test nss-test.o ../../csu/i386-elf/crt1.o ../../csu/i386-elf/crti.o -lc $ ./nss-test files called files called retval = 1 NS_SUCCESS Bus error (core dumped) $ gdb nss-test nss-test.core GNU gdb 4.18 Copyright 1998 Free Software Foundation, Inc. GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and you are welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain conditions. Type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB. Type "show warranty" for details. This GDB was configured as "i386-unknown-freebsd"... Core was generated by `nss-test'. Program terminated with signal 10, Bus error. #0 0x80528e4 in ?? () (gdb) where #0 0x80528e4 in ?? () #1 0x80481ff in _start () at crt1.c:95 (gdb) as I said in the first mail, this has to do with crt1.c calling atexit() with a valid address (0x80528e4) and somehow the argument to atexit() getting to be NULL once inside atexit()... I'd really like to use the dynamic stuff but I can't seem to make it compile. > Of course we are, please file a PR when you think it's pretty much > completed or email -hackers if you need/want advice. :) Ok, I'll start firing questions about NIS at -hackers regards, -oscar -- pgp public key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu pgp fingerprint: 6D 18 8C 90 4C DF F0 4B DF 35 1F 69 A1 33 C7 BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 15:52:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF7137BB47; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:52:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA35571; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:51:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:51:20 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey To: Oscar Bonilla Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler In-Reply-To: <20000310172706.A93660@fisicc-ufm.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Oscar Bonilla wrote: > $ cp Makefile.static Makefile > $ make > cc -g -DYP -DFreeBSD -Wall -pedantic -ansi -c -I../../libc/include nss-test.c > cc -g -nostdlib -static -L../../libc -o nss-test nss-test.o ../../csu/i386-elf/crt1.o ../../csu/i386-elf/crti.o -lc > $ ./nss-test > files called > files called > retval = 1 > NS_SUCCESS > Bus error (core dumped) I wasn't reading this too closely, but if you're trying to hand feed in the object files, the C startup object file *MUST* come first in the list of object files, because it's gotta link at the lowest address ... Is that it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 16: 0:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 441D737B824 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:00:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcov@toad.stack.nl) Received: from hermes.tue.nl [131.155.2.46] by kweetal.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id BAA03986 (ESMTP); Sat, 11 Mar 2000 01:00:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from deathstar (n142.dial.tue.nl [131.155.209.141]) by hermes.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920E62E802 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 01:00:14 +0100 (CET) From: "Marco van de Voort" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 00:58:13 +0100 Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler In-reply-to: <20000308150327.A77039@fisicc-ufm.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Message-Id: <20000311000014.920E62E802@hermes.tue.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > to try things out i create a static binary and coerce it to use my > C library instead of the system's one. > > this is how i compile my program: > > cc -g -DYP -DFreeBSD -Wall -pedantic -ansi -c -I../../libc/include nss-test.c > cc -g -nostdlib -static -L../../libc -o nss-test nss-test.o \ > ../../csu/i386-elf/crt1.o ../../csu/i386-elf/crti.o -lc I'm no expert, but I tried something like this a few weeks back(to totally link without libc), and I was wondering, aren't you missing crtbegin and crtend ? Marco van de Voort (MarcoV@Stack.nl) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 16: 3:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB0B37BA75; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:03:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA24861; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:35:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:35:18 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Oscar Bonilla Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler Message-ID: <20000310163518.M14279@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000308163057.W14279@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000310164428.A89006@fisicc-ufm.edu> <20000310152737.J14279@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000310172706.A93660@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000310172706.A93660@fisicc-ufm.edu>; from obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 05:27:06PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Oscar Bonilla [000310 16:00] wrote: > On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 03:27:37PM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > I think you'll want LD_LIBRARY_PATH to be: > > /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/libc/:/usr/lib:/usr/local/lib > > I don't see why since the only library I use is libc. Anyway, I tried > just for kicks and still got the same error. > > $ echo $LD_LIBRARY_PATH > /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/libc:/usr/lib:/usr/local/lib > $ echo $LD_PRELOAD > /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/libc/libc.so.4 > $ make > cc -g -DYP -DFreeBSD -Wall -pedantic -ansi -o nss-test -I../../libc/include nss-test.c > /tmp/ccE93722.o: In function `main': > /home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/tests/libc/nss-test.c(.text+0xb0): undefined reference to `nsdispatch' > *** Error code 1 > > Stop in /usr/home/obonilla/freebsd/nss/tests/libc. > > > please use the dynamic, it's a hell of a lot easier. > > sure, as soon as it works I'll use it ;) It seems to be working just fine, I suspect that there's something wrong with your code and you're referencing a function that somehow is not being compiled into libc: ~ % nm /usr/lib/libc.a | grep nsdispatch ~ % is this a function you've added? Are you _sure_ it's being compiled into the libc you're making? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 16:28:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-198-202.guate.net [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B1FF37BB32; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:27:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA94301; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:26:06 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:26:02 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Chuck Robey Cc: Oscar Bonilla , Alfred Perlstein , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler Message-ID: <20000310182602.A94174@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <20000310172706.A93660@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 06:51:20PM -0500, Chuck Robey wrote: > I wasn't reading this too closely, but if you're trying to hand feed in > the object files, the C startup object file *MUST* come first in the list > of object files, because it's gotta link at the lowest address ... > > Is that it? Ok, I'm even more puzzled than before... If I link them in this order: nss-test.o crt1.o crti.o I get the following: files called files called retval = 1 NS_SUCCESS Bus error (core dumped) Notice the duplicate line that says "files called"? This had me puzzled before, but now I see that somehow _init point to the first function in the first object file (gdb) p _init $1 = {} 0x8048074 Now if I like it in this order: crt1.o crti.o nss-test.o I get an infinite recursion!!!! (gdb) p _init $1 = {} 0x8048074 <_start> since _start calls _init() *before* calling main() it just loops (and starts swapping like hell) Let me try this order: crti.o crt1.o nss-test.o (gdb) p _init $1 = {} 0x8048074 <_start> nope, same as before. infinite recursion and swapping like hell. maybe this order: crt1.o nss-test.o crti.o (gdb) print _init $1 = {} 0x8048074 <_start> same thing. I created a small C file: #include foo() { printf("foo\n"); } and tried this order: foo.o nss-test.o crt1.o crti.o (gdb) print _init $1 = {} 0x8048074 and if I just run it... foo files called retval = 1 NS_SUCCESS Bus error (core dumped) If I try gdb with a normal program (i.e. one linked with the standard C library in /usr/lib and not my own C library) (gdb) print _init $1 = {} 0x804838c <_init> What could be the problem? regards, -oscar -- pgp public key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu pgp fingerprint: 6D 18 8C 90 4C DF F0 4B DF 35 1F 69 A1 33 C7 BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 16:29:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1A337BAD3 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:29:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA303068; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:29:09 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5137.952691230@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> References: <5137.952691230@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:29:48 -0500 To: Sheldon Hearn , Johnathan Meehan From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 2:27 PM +0200 3/10/00, Sheldon Hearn wrote: >On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 13:00:20 +0100, Johnathan Meehan wrote: > > > That is not fair, Sheldon. Didier has some concerns, and I > > cannot blame him. > >I guess what I wrote makes for a very harsh comment in isolation >from the grin I had on my face while I was typing. :-) Also [, Jonathan,] note that there is a big difference between "having some concerns", and publicly wringing your hands in despair that "the project is dead, where should I go now?". > > I'm sure you chaps know what you are doing, but some of us > > believe that Eris is great friends with Murphy. > >I only contribute to FreeBSD because it's an Open Source project >and because FreeBSD has the most impotus in the BSD family. If >FreeBSD stops being free, I'd reconsider my willingness to contribute. > >I think BSD Inc. have acknowledged the impotus the FreeBSD Porject has >and are looking to jump on the bandwagon. Looks like a really good >thing for both BSD Inc. and the FreeBSD project. :-) I can understand how some people might have some concerns about a few aspects of this. Even though everything I've read makes this look like a great deal for all of us, I do understand that there are possible pitfalls to any major undertaking like this. So, yes, people should express their concerns about the details of the deal. Still... "dead"? Heh heh heh. I'm afraid my gut reaction to Didier's comments was also one of humor. BSDI is going to take some of it's features, port them into FreeBSD, make them available with the FreeBSD-ish license, and that means FreeBSD is "dead"? A bunch of developers currently working at BSDI are coming over to offer help FreeBSD development -- oh woe is us? Many BSDI customers are going to become defacto FreeBSD customers -- oh no, the LAST thing we'd want is MORE PEOPLE USING FREEBSD! We will have people working on freebsd for more HW platforms -- let the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin? Hello? I don't mean to make fun of some of the possible pitfalls here, but from everything I've read I think this is a great win-win situation for both FreeBSD and BSDI customers. Well, it's a win-win situation for both groups of developers, too, so maybe that makes it a win-win-win-win situation. I can't fathom how anyone would read these announcements and conclude that FreeBSD just died. I mean, if you do actually READ the announcements, it is mighty hard to come to that conclusion. I would like to say "hat's off!" to everyone involved in making this happen. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 16:37:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-198-202.guate.net [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5363B37BAF6; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:36:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA94534; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:36:30 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:36:30 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Oscar Bonilla , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler Message-ID: <20000310183630.A94441@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <20000308163057.W14279@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000310164428.A89006@fisicc-ufm.edu> <20000310152737.J14279@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000310172706.A93660@fisicc-ufm.edu> <20000310163518.M14279@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <20000310163518.M14279@fw.wintelcom.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 04:35:18PM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > It seems to be working just fine, I suspect that there's something wrong > with your code and you're referencing a function that somehow is not > being compiled into libc: > > ~ % nm /usr/lib/libc.a | grep nsdispatch > ~ % > > is this a function you've added? Are you _sure_ it's being > compiled into the libc you're making? yes, it *is* being compiled into my C library. If I compile a static binary it works (aside from the bus error at the end and the double calling of the first funtion of the first object file listed). regards, -oscar -- pgp public key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu pgp fingerprint: 6D 18 8C 90 4C DF F0 4B DF 35 1F 69 A1 33 C7 BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 16:38:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0212C37BE02; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:38:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25801; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:10:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:10:21 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Oscar Bonilla Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler Message-ID: <20000310171021.P14279@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000308163057.W14279@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000310164428.A89006@fisicc-ufm.edu> <20000310152737.J14279@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000310172706.A93660@fisicc-ufm.edu> <20000310163518.M14279@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000310183630.A94441@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000310183630.A94441@fisicc-ufm.edu>; from obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 06:36:30PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Oscar Bonilla [000310 17:08] wrote: > On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 04:35:18PM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > It seems to be working just fine, I suspect that there's something wrong > > with your code and you're referencing a function that somehow is not > > being compiled into libc: > > > > ~ % nm /usr/lib/libc.a | grep nsdispatch > > ~ % > > > > is this a function you've added? Are you _sure_ it's being > > compiled into the libc you're making? > > yes, it *is* being compiled into my C library. If I compile a static > binary it works (aside from the bus error at the end and the double > calling of the first funtion of the first object file listed). since I'm assuming you're planning on open-sourcing this work anyhow, can you please put a tarball up on some www/ftp site, I'll take a look at it later tonight. thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 16:44:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-198-202.guate.net [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBFB637BB60 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:44:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA94618; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:43:46 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:43:46 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Marco van de Voort Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler Message-ID: <20000310184346.B94441@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <20000308150327.A77039@fisicc-ufm.edu> <20000311000014.920E62E802@hermes.tue.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <20000311000014.920E62E802@hermes.tue.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 12:58:13AM +0100, Marco van de Voort wrote: > > > to try things out i create a static binary and coerce it to use my > > C library instead of the system's one. > > > > this is how i compile my program: > > > > cc -g -DYP -DFreeBSD -Wall -pedantic -ansi -c -I../../libc/include nss-test.c > > cc -g -nostdlib -static -L../../libc -o nss-test nss-test.o \ > > ../../csu/i386-elf/crt1.o ../../csu/i386-elf/crti.o -lc > > I'm no expert, but I tried something like this a few weeks back(to totally link without > libc), and I was wondering, aren't you missing crtbegin and crtend ? > YES! that took care of the double calling of the first function of the first file... I still get the bus error at the end of my program in the atexit() call. this is because _fini is invalid. do you know the exact order in which I should link the objects? regards, -oscar -- pgp public key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu pgp fingerprint: 6D 18 8C 90 4C DF F0 4B DF 35 1F 69 A1 33 C7 BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 16:50:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9688337BB81; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:50:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA35824; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:49:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:49:32 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey To: Oscar Bonilla Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler In-Reply-To: <20000310182602.A94174@fisicc-ufm.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Oscar Bonilla wrote: > On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 06:51:20PM -0500, Chuck Robey wrote: > > I wasn't reading this too closely, but if you're trying to hand feed in > > the object files, the C startup object file *MUST* come first in the list > > of object files, because it's gotta link at the lowest address ... > > > > Is that it? > > Ok, I'm even more puzzled than before... This is just for a simple C program, no C++? I've been working in 2.2 and 3.4 lately, but I'll show you the trick I use, done this time for -current. Here's the trick. Write yourself a little C program, something that uses at least one include file. I don't give a damn what it does, but when you compile it, use the -v flag: gcc -v -o testme testme.c That -v flag is great for what you want, because it shows you what gcc itself is doing to get good linkages: chuckr:/usr1/chuckr:167 >gcc -v -o testme testme.c Using builtin specs. gcc version 2.95.2 19991024 (release) /usr/libexec/cpp -lang-c -v -D__GNUC__=2 -D__GNUC_MINOR__=95 -Di386 -Dunix -D__FreeBSD__=4 -D__FreeBSD_cc_version=400004 -D__i386__ -D__unix__ -D__FreeBSD__=4 -D__FreeBSD_cc_version=400004 -D__i386 -D__unix -Acpu(i386) -Amachine(i386) -Asystem(unix) -Asystem(FreeBSD) -Acpu(i386) -Amachine(i386) -Di386 -D__i386 -D__i386__ -D__ELF__ testme.c /tmp/ccD35733.i GNU CPP version 2.95.2 19991024 (release) (i386 FreeBSD/ELF) #include "..." search starts here: #include <...> search starts here: /usr/include /usr/include End of search list. The following default directories have been omitted from the search path: /usr/include/g++ End of omitted list. /usr/libexec/cc1 /tmp/ccD35733.i -quiet -dumpbase testme.c -version -o /tmp/ccj35733.s GNU C version 2.95.2 19991024 (release) (i386-unknown-freebsd) compiled by GNU C version 2.95.2 19991024 (release). /usr/libexec/elf/as -v -o /tmp/ccn35733.o /tmp/ccj35733.s GNU assembler version 2.9.1 (i386-unknown-freebsdelf), using BFD version 2.9.1 /usr/libexec/elf/ld -m elf_i386 -dynamic-linker /usr/libexec/ld-elf.so.1 -o testme /usr/lib/crt1.o /usr/lib/crti.o /usr/lib/crtbegin.o -L/usr/libexec/elf -L/usr/libexec -L/usr/lib /tmp/ccn35733.o /usr/lib/libgcc.a -lc /usr/lib/libgcc.a /usr/lib/crtend.o /usr/lib/crtn.o Notice here the order it links, and what files it links in. First, if you're using nostdlib, then you have to call out your own libs, all of them, and you forgot to do libgcc. I've been able to move the lib calls before and after the object files, so I don't think that order matters, as long as you get both, but the objects (in order) are: crt1.o crti.o crtbegin.o ccn35733.o (your obj, that is) , then crtend.o crtn.o It calls out the ld-elf.so.1, but I don't think that's really linked in. I've been doing all my stuff statically linked, so I could be wrong on that part of it. I don't think you need to care about the -L calls, because when you use the full path, -L doesn't really matter. Always remember that -v, when your messing with tools. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 16:56:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-198-202.guate.net [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4025337BB9B; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:56:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA94844; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:55:34 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:55:34 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Chuck Robey Cc: Oscar Bonilla , Alfred Perlstein , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler Message-ID: <20000310185534.A94778@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <20000310182602.A94174@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 07:49:32PM -0500, Chuck Robey wrote: > Notice here the order it links, and what files it links in. First, if > you're using nostdlib, then you have to call out your own libs, all of > them, and you forgot to do libgcc. I've been able to move the lib calls I don't really need libgcc since I'm only calling funtions in libc, but... > before and after the object files, so I don't think that order matters, as > long as you get both, but the objects (in order) are: > > crt1.o crti.o crtbegin.o ccn35733.o (your obj, that is) , then > crtend.o crtn.o > > It calls out the ld-elf.so.1, but I don't think that's really linked > in. I've been doing all my stuff statically linked, so I could be wrong > on that part of it. I don't think you need to care about the -L calls, > because when you use the full path, -L doesn't really matter. > > Always remember that -v, when your messing with tools. > That ordering completly solved it!! thanks... now I can get back to getting the NSS code into libc. kind regards and many thanks, -oscar -- pgp public key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu pgp fingerprint: 6D 18 8C 90 4C DF F0 4B DF 35 1F 69 A1 33 C7 BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 16:59:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3A037B94D for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:59:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from babkin@bellatlantic.net) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-117-211.bellatlantic.net [151.198.117.211]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA06776; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:59:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38C99C6D.71069A08@bellatlantic.net> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 20:07:57 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: ru, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dennis Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... References: <200003101712.MAA12621@etinc.com> <200003101840.NAA12885@etinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dennis wrote: > the people buying linux servers from VAR research and the like dont care > about source, they care about functinality. Thats why BSDI doesnt get it. > its not about the source, its about the price. People perceive that BSD/OS > and FreeBSD are substantially similar in functionalty, and freebsd is free. I guess one of the throubles stalking them was the name of the product. First it was BSD/386 which was easily confused with 386BSD. Then BSD/OS which was not much better because inevitably caused a question "_which_ BSD OS, you say? Ah, the BSDI one!" > The source is only important to a tiny, tiny portion of the market. The > hackers list is not the market...corporate america is the market. > > We all have source to the eepro driver but if DG doesnt fix it it doesnt > get fixed. I'll take a driver that works anyday over the option to fix it > myself. and so will most commercial entities. I think that's a fundamental mistake. Of course a driver without sources that works is better than the one with sources but not working. But the trouble is that too often you can't say in advance if some particular driver will work well. And the one with sources thus has additional warranty. > The "strategy" is not to sell to existing BSD-heads. Its to create > incremental business. BSDI doesnt do all that advertsiing just to appeal to > existing die hards. They are trying to get people to use their product > instead of NT. Instead of Linux. The existing BSD market is too small. They > have failed to convince the world that BSD is the answer. Outside of the > US. linux is totally dominant. One of the reasons was that Linux was able to run the Oracle for SCO Unix very early. BSDI did not have this compatibility for a long time nor their own port of Oracle. And not even Informix. So they were immediately out of competition with any other Unix maker in the database-oriented market. > Although in the BSD arena you are right. I told the DOM of BSDI at a show > that their decision to support our competitors card in their OS and shun > everyone else cost them hundreds of sales a year, because all Development of the drivers is expensive, especially for a small company. For example, SCO is much bigger than BSDI and still does not develop any network nor disk drivers except IDE because that's not cost effective, it just gets the drivers from the card manufacturers. So I guess what your company could have done was develop a driver for BSDI and give it to them. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 18:31:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5347F37B9E7 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:31:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA44273; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:31:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Thierry.herbelot" Cc: Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2000 22:47:14 +0100." <38C96D62.AA014236@cybercable.fr> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:31:50 -0800 Message-ID: <44270.952741910@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Will there be some kind of "business-like" presentation of all the > goodies which will comme from this merge of codebases ? (BSD-mergemania > for Dummies (TM) ?) I really couldn't say at this stage. Hopefully? :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 20: 7:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D53F37BA3A for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 20:07:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id FAA10256; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 05:07:37 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <20000311050737.B10149@foobar.franken.de> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 05:07:37 +0100 From: Harold Gutch To: Michael Bacarella , Dennis Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... References: <200003101712.MAA12621@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Michael Bacarella on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 12:34:58PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 12:34:58PM -0500, Michael Bacarella wrote: > A BSDI represenative tried for days to convince me over the phone why I > should pay for BSD/OS even though FreeBSD was free, or at least a CD > order away, and FreeBSD even has source code. > > I asked about why we should buy a product that we don't have the source > code to, and he simply said "because the (cr)hackers don't have our code." As long as BSDI Inc. sells/sold source licenses to more than just a _very_ low amount of people, "they" always will have/had the BSD/OS sources as well. You might as well argue that "they" don't use any Windows Betas, as Microsoft doesn't directly hand them out to "them". Oh, yes, and of course "they" would never be able to get their hands on DeCSS-sourcecode, as those are kept in private. Add whatever product you wish to this list. bye, Harold -- Someone should do a study to find out how many human life spans have been lost waiting for NT to reboot. Ken Deboy on Dec 24 1999 in comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Mar 10 23:43:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8609937B5DB for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:43:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtg8j.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.193.19]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA26003; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 02:43:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA04495; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:47:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: dennis@etinc.com Cc: sheldonh@uunet.co.za, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... In-Reply-To: <200003101712.MAA12621@etinc.com> References: <5137.952691230@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <200003101712.MAA12621@etinc.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000310234734T.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:47:34 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 10 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm sorry Dennis but I find it a bit difficult to swallow your assessment of other people's business acumen and their ability to relate to markets. The race isn't over yet, hell everybody's just warming up :-) -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 3:17:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rothko.bestweb.net (rothko.bestweb.net [209.94.100.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB7237BA23 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 03:17:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kmg@bestweb.net) Received: from kevin.bestweb.net (dialin-103-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net [216.179.1.103] (may be forged)) by rothko.bestweb.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA27946 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 06:17:42 -0500 (EST) From: Kevin M Geraci Reply-To: kmg@bestweb.net To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:41:11 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00031017411601.00380@kevin.bestweb.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 3:17:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rothko.bestweb.net (rothko.bestweb.net [209.94.100.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B3237BA36 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 03:17:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kmg@bestweb.net) Received: from kevin.bestweb.net (dialin-103-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net [216.179.1.103] (may be forged)) by rothko.bestweb.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA27954 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 06:17:43 -0500 (EST) From: Kevin M Geraci Reply-To: kmg@bestweb.net To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Is FreeBSD dead? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:41:59 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00031017434102.00380@kevin.bestweb.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is doing and let Walnut Creek merge. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 3:17:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rothko.bestweb.net (rothko.bestweb.net [209.94.100.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D1137BA4E for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 03:17:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kmg@bestweb.net) Received: from kevin.bestweb.net (dialin-103-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net [216.179.1.103] (may be forged)) by rothko.bestweb.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA27940 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 06:17:40 -0500 (EST) From: Kevin M Geraci Reply-To: kmg@bestweb.net To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Is FreeBSD dead? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:39:11 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00031017404700.00380@kevin.bestweb.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 3:18: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rothko.bestweb.net (rothko.bestweb.net [209.94.100.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA8337BA7C for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 03:17:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kmg@bestweb.net) Received: from kevin.bestweb.net (dialin-103-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net [216.179.1.103] (may be forged)) by rothko.bestweb.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA27973 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 06:17:47 -0500 (EST) From: Kevin M Geraci Reply-To: kmg@bestweb.net To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Is FreeBSD dead? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:45:09 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00031017484704.00380@kevin.bestweb.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is doing and let Walnut Creek merge with BSDi with out FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 4:11:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from omnix.net (omnix.net [195.154.168.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E37EF37BA7C for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 04:11:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from didier@omnix.net) Received: (qmail 8775 invoked by uid 200); 11 Mar 2000 12:11:50 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 11 Mar 2000 12:11:50 -0000 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:11:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Didier Derny To: Warner Losh Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: <200003102006.NAA17522@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > In message Didier Derny writes: > : I've been using FreeBSD since August 1994 (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1) > > I think you are wrong. Dead wrong. This will allow the WC to pump > more money into the FreeBSD organization to fix some of the glaring > problems that we have now. > > Warner > I hope I'm totally wrong and that FreeBSD will continue as it was before but the experience I've had in the past makes me think the worse. yesterday I've already had a phone call from a client asking me what I thought about OpenBSD/NetBSD (as replacement for FreeBSD) some friends called me too with the same concern. It is clear that I was planning to use FreeBSD 4.0 at home (to replace FreeBSD 3.x in the future) and that know I'll try NetBSD/OpenBSD/Linux the worse is that some clients are already reproaching me to use FreeBSD instead of Linux... -- Didier Derny didier@omnix.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 4:16:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from omnix.net (omnix.net [195.154.168.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1757537BB21 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 04:16:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from didier@omnix.net) Received: (qmail 8826 invoked by uid 200); 11 Mar 2000 12:16:51 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 11 Mar 2000 12:16:51 -0000 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:16:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Didier Derny To: Chuck Robey Cc: Dennis , Wes Peters , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Chuck Robey wrote: > > When you see something wrong, you can speak up, but stop complaining about > stuff that hasn't even happened yet. You could generate enough ill > feelings and bad publicity to *cause yourself* the exact thing you're > worried about. > One day we will discover that we can't use FreeBSD as freely and / or with the same quality. That day it will be to late to change from FreeBSD to something and the only solution will probably be to pay bsdi for their products. Small ISP are not deciding the day before what they will do the day after It takes us months. -- Didier Derny didier@omnix.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 4:18:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A8537B996 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 04:18:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA13251; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 04:51:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 04:51:01 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Kevin M Geraci Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Message-ID: <20000311045101.U14279@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <00031017484704.00380@kevin.bestweb.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <00031017484704.00380@kevin.bestweb.net>; from kmg@bestweb.net on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 05:45:09PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Kevin M Geraci [000311 03:54] wrote: > Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is doing > and let Walnut Creek merge with BSDi with out FreeBSD. We'd be better off if people making suggestions like this would "spin off". -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 4:33:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from omnix.net (omnix.net [195.154.168.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B17937BB21 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 04:33:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from didier@omnix.net) Received: (qmail 8988 invoked by uid 200); 11 Mar 2000 12:33:07 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 11 Mar 2000 12:33:07 -0000 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:33:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Didier Derny To: Sam Leffler Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: <114801bf8abf$0fc33060$0132a8c0@MELANGE> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG it was this announcement, but it's only words, the reallity can be very different... the equations are quite simple step 1 ------ bsd/os = $$ for bsdi freebsd = lack of bsd/os sold by bsdi --> lack of $$ for bsdi step 2 ------ merge + give code to freebsd --> lack of $$ but future investment bsdi unhappy to have given code but thinking to the future freebsd users happy of the new features ... a few months ... freebsd users 'addicted' by the new features ... a few other months ... bsdi is doing everything to slow down the development of freebsd... ... a few other months ... step 3 ------ freebsd is late behind bsd/os some freebsd users have started to pay for bsd/os [too many drivers / features are missing in freebsd and bsd/os is the nearest compatible system so it's easyier to move from freebsd to bsd/os rather than to linux] ... 1 .. 2 .. 3 years ... step 4 ------ freebsd is dead freebsd users are now running bsd/os (big bucks for BSD/OS) finally it was a good operation for BSDI I've already seen this mechanism several times in the past sorry, that's how I see the things, even if I hope that I'm wrong that's also how some of my clients / friends see the things -- Didier Derny didier@omnix.net On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Sam Leffler wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Didier Derny" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 3:02 AM > Subject: Is FreeBSD dead ? > > > > Hi, > > > > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek > > CDROM. (March 10 2000). > > > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling > > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. > > > > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or > > the single user evaluation of BSDI... > > > > Not sure what announcement you read (no URL provided), but if you look at > http://www.bsdi.com/press/20000310.mhtml you'll see the following: > > "BSDI will continue to develop, enhance and distribute BSD/OS and FreeBSD > according to the terms of the business-friendly, unencumbered Berkeley > software license, which encourages development for open source software > projects, embedded systems, specialized applications, information appliances > and other operating system-enabled products. > BSDI will expand and accelerate Walnut Creek CDROM's FreeBSD open source > initiatives by sharing BSD/OS technical innovations with the FreeBSD Project > and by providing this open source project with operational and technical > support, marketing and funding. BSDI will continue to distribute packaged > versions of FreeBSD and also plans to develop value-added products based on > FreeBSD as well as to provide technical support, consulting services, > educational services and training for FreeBSD customers. These steps are > expected to promote and invigorate the BSD open source computing movement. > The FreeBSD Project develops the popular FreeBSD operating system and > aggregates and integrates contributed software from more than 5,000 > developers worldwide." > > which clearly states that FreeBSD will benefit greatly from this action. > > FWIW I'm the person that was responsible for 4.2BSD (and lots of the code > you still find in FreeBSD) and based on my information you've got things > very wrong. > > Sam > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 5:32:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7753037B996 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 05:32:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcov@toad.stack.nl) Received: from hermes.tue.nl [131.155.2.46] by kweetal.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id OAA18265 (ESMTP); Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:32:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from deathstar (n176.dial.tue.nl [131.155.209.175]) by hermes.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B99A02E804 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:32:21 +0100 (CET) From: "Marco van de Voort" To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:30:19 +0100 Subject: Re: inner workings of the C compiler In-reply-to: <20000310184346.B94441@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <20000311000014.920E62E802@hermes.tue.nl> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Message-Id: <20000311133221.B99A02E804@hermes.tue.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > to try things out i create a static binary and coerce it to use my > > > C library instead of the system's one. > > > > > > this is how i compile my program: > > > > > > cc -g -DYP -DFreeBSD -Wall -pedantic -ansi -c -I../../libc/include nss-test.c > > > cc -g -nostdlib -static -L../../libc -o nss-test nss-test.o \ > > > ../../csu/i386-elf/crt1.o ../../csu/i386-elf/crti.o -lc > > > > I'm no expert, but I tried something like this a few weeks back(to totally link without > > libc), and I was wondering, aren't you missing crtbegin and crtend ? > > > > YES! that took care of the double calling of the first function of the > first file... > > I still get the bus error at the end of my program in the atexit() call. > this is because _fini is invalid. > > do you know the exact order in which I should link the objects? prt1 first, and crtbegin ownmodule crtend I believe, I added the others to the end, and that worked. (But I didn't link libc or any other lib) So crt1 crtbegin myobject crtend crti crtn. P.s. Could you sent me a minimal C program linking to libc, and the commandline to compile it with -nostdlib ? I could throw all these experiences with non standard linking in a little tex doc. ( --nostdlib with and without libc, pure assembler instead of c (no gcc), some small chapter about syscall conventions etc) Marco van de Voort (MarcoV@Stack.nl) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 5:49: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.theinternet.com.au (zeus.theinternet.com.au [203.34.176.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9853A37B83E for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 05:48:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from akm@mail.theinternet.com.au) Received: (from akm@localhost) by mail.theinternet.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA96993; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:43:33 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from akm) From: Andrew Kenneth Milton Message-Id: <200003111343.XAA96993@mail.theinternet.com.au> Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: from Didier Derny at "Mar 11, 2000 12:33:07 pm" To: Didier Derny Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:43:33 +1000 (EST) Cc: Sam Leffler , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG +----[ Didier Derny ]--------------------------------------------- | it was this announcement, but it's only words, the reallity can be | very different... | | the equations are quite simple No they're not. Your equations are naive, and show that you do not realise what FreeBSD is worth to BSDi other than a saleable product. FreeBSD is (worth) more than the sum of its parts. -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068 |akm@theinternet.com.au| To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 6: 5:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A46F37B7B0 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 06:05:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jegjr@erols.com) Received: from 207-172-122-85.s276.tnt6.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com ([207.172.122.85] helo=deinonychus.erols.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 12TmVA-0002YK-00; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:04:20 -0500 From: John Grimes Reply-To: jegjr@erols.com To: Wes Peters , Didier Derny Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 08:52:02 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <38C93D6C.38B24702@softweyr.com> In-Reply-To: <38C93D6C.38B24702@softweyr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00031109145000.25510@deinonychus.erols.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > Didier Derny wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek > > CDROM. (March 10 2000). > > > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling > > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. > > > > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or > > the single user evaluation of BSDI... > > Apparently you didn't read all of the press release. The BSDI technology > will be folded into FreeBSD, which will remain free and open. What this > really means is that there will be several more people paid to work on > FreeBSD full time, and to bring exciting new technologies to FreeBSD 5.0. > There will also be a professional support organization that can offer > support contracts for FreeBSD if you wish to purchase one. > > I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement. I don't entirely agree with the statement above. I would like to mention a point to ponder. In the 13th paragraph of the announcement on the FreeBSD.org website, I quote the following, "BSDI will continue to distribute packaged versions of FreeBSD...." Is this another way of saying that in the future that the distribution of FreeBSD may take on the Sun model for their "free" operating system software, which you pay $$$ for the media, and it is not freely downloadable from the net nor freely distributable? >If > you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any > one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system. > BSDidier has a nice ring to it. > > Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking > with it for quite some time to come. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 7: 1:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71AA437BC43 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:01:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA33725; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:01:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:01:02 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Didier Derny Cc: Sam Leffler , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The big thing that you are missing from this equation is the people. Kirk and Mike, who I know, are more dedicated to seeing BSD as a whole succeed, than most people, so I think that you have to factor that in. I think they see that they are spending too much of their time trying to play catch-up on the issues of kernel development etc and being distracted by what what we as FreeBSD are happy to do for free, and they would rather spend that effort on pushing BSD forward in the maketplace. I am sure that 'conspiracy theorists' are having a field day but the grassy knoll doesn't come into this one. Julian On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Didier Derny wrote: > it was this announcement, but it's only words, the reallity can be > very different... > > the equations are quite simple > > step 1 > ------ > bsd/os = $$ for bsdi > freebsd = lack of bsd/os sold by bsdi --> lack of $$ for bsdi > > step 2 > ------ > merge + give code to freebsd --> lack of $$ but future investment > bsdi unhappy to have given code but thinking to the future > freebsd users happy of the new features > > ... a few months ... > > freebsd users 'addicted' by the new features > > ... a few other months ... > > bsdi is doing everything to slow down the development of freebsd... > > ... a few other months ... > > step 3 > ------ > freebsd is late behind bsd/os > some freebsd users have started to pay for bsd/os [too many drivers / > features are missing in freebsd and bsd/os is the nearest compatible > system so it's easyier to move from freebsd to bsd/os rather than to > linux] > > ... 1 .. 2 .. 3 years ... > > step 4 > ------ > freebsd is dead > freebsd users are now running bsd/os (big bucks for BSD/OS) > finally it was a good operation for BSDI > > I've already seen this mechanism several times in the past > > sorry, that's how I see the things, even if I hope that I'm wrong > that's also how some of my clients / friends see the things > > -- > Didier Derny > didier@omnix.net > > On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Sam Leffler wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Didier Derny" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 3:02 AM > > Subject: Is FreeBSD dead ? > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek > > > CDROM. (March 10 2000). > > > > > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling > > > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. > > > > > > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or > > > the single user evaluation of BSDI... > > > > > > > Not sure what announcement you read (no URL provided), but if you look at > > http://www.bsdi.com/press/20000310.mhtml you'll see the following: > > > > "BSDI will continue to develop, enhance and distribute BSD/OS and FreeBSD > > according to the terms of the business-friendly, unencumbered Berkeley > > software license, which encourages development for open source software > > projects, embedded systems, specialized applications, information appliances > > and other operating system-enabled products. > > BSDI will expand and accelerate Walnut Creek CDROM's FreeBSD open source > > initiatives by sharing BSD/OS technical innovations with the FreeBSD Project > > and by providing this open source project with operational and technical > > support, marketing and funding. BSDI will continue to distribute packaged > > versions of FreeBSD and also plans to develop value-added products based on > > FreeBSD as well as to provide technical support, consulting services, > > educational services and training for FreeBSD customers. These steps are > > expected to promote and invigorate the BSD open source computing movement. > > The FreeBSD Project develops the popular FreeBSD operating system and > > aggregates and integrates contributed software from more than 5,000 > > developers worldwide." > > > > which clearly states that FreeBSD will benefit greatly from this action. > > > > FWIW I'm the person that was responsible for 4.2BSD (and lots of the code > > you still find in FreeBSD) and based on my information you've got things > > very wrong. > > > > Sam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 7:19:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E428F37BC40 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:19:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA33755; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:19:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:19:10 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: John Grimes Cc: Wes Peters , Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?(NO) In-Reply-To: <00031109145000.25510@deinonychus.erols.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, John Grimes wrote: > On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > I don't entirely agree with the statement above. I would like to mention a > point to ponder. In the 13th paragraph of the announcement on the > FreeBSD.org website, I quote the following, "BSDI will continue to > distribute packaged versions of FreeBSD...." Is this another way of saying > that in the future that the distribution of FreeBSD may take on the Sun model > for their "free" operating system software, which you pay $$$ for the media, and > it is not freely downloadable from the net nor freely distributable? > This shows a lack of knowledg of the present set-up. Walnut creek is not presently responsible for FreeBSD, the FreeBSD source or FreeBSD development. The merger of WC and BSDI can not therefore change any of these things. These things have been overseen by teh core-group and FreeBSD inc. In the new picture this differentiation is even more marked. BSDI will rely on FreeBSD being successful, but they will not be controlling it. this in my mind is a very brave move, and one I wouldn't make lightly. The only thing WC is (was) responsible for is the agreement with FreeBSD inc, (and the developers) that they are responsible for producing the CD image and selling it. The cost of this to them is that they pay for Jordan's time to produce actual snapshots to sell. Since WC didn't control any more than the server for the CVS tree, and since we all have mirrors of that thanks to cvsup, if they decided to make it unfree, then we as the FreeBSD development group would just nominate a different central server and life would continue as before, ... without them. julian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 7:23:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E93B37BBF1 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:23:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA70495; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:23:20 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:23:20 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Thierry.herbelot" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: <38C960E2.3D58BD4B@cybercable.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I snipped the following from the cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Didier Derny , hope they don't mind 8-) On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Thierry.herbelot wrote: > "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > [SNIP] > > > > If you think it's possible to bend the FreeBSD project to anyone's > > corporate will then you've never even come close to understanding who > > we are or what we stand for. That's a shame since one would think 6 > > years to be more than enough time to gain such an understanding. > > > > - Jordan > > Then, what are the benefits for both parties ? > > For the FreeBSD project : > - many more supported platforms (Sparc, PowerPC, Arm ?) definately. > - better Intel SMP ? Possibly not only intel smp, according to Wes Peters. > - new developpers ? I would say yes. > - increased credibility via the support network of BSDi ? > add marekting, market penetration, additional name recognition, corporate contacts and a lot of other things. > For BSD/OS : > - better exposure thanks to OpenSource ? > - Yahoo dollars ? > - access to a greater community of **volunteer** testers ? > Access to the developer pool ? > TfH > > (This is absolutely not a flame bait : I'm very happy to imagine I could > eventually get for-pay support for FreeBSD machines at work) > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > -- > Thierry Herbelot /"\ ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN > \ / AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS > mailto:herbelot@cybercable.fr X PAS DE HTML > http://perso.cybercable.fr/herbelot / \ DANS LES COURRIELS > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 8:17:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pazardjik.eunet.bg (pazardjik.digsys.bg [193.68.12.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 656D637BC95 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 08:17:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mirobo@mbox.digsys.bg) Received: from shadow (pazardjik75.pip.digsys.bg [193.68.12.75]) by pazardjik.eunet.bg (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA06806 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:17:34 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <005f01bf8b75$31b78b10$5a01a8c0@TK> From: "M Pendev" To: Subject: Midnight Commander and FreeBDS Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:16:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi people ! I am new in this mail list and i like Free BSD verry much, I hope that this guys from BSDI have brain in their heads and dont want to stop this cool OS Iam triyng to install Gnome Midnight Commander on FreeBSD but without success... I read that i must have at least gtk and dlib in order to install it Have somebody make this before ? M Pendev e-mail: mirobo@mbox.digsys.bg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 8:37:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ikhala.tcimet.net (ikhala.tcimet.net [198.109.166.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6095C37BBF2 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 08:37:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dervish@ikhala.tcimet.net) Received: (from dervish@localhost) by ikhala.tcimet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA57123; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:11:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dervish) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:11:39 -0500 From: bush doctor To: M Pendev Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Midnight Commander and FreeBDS Message-ID: <20000311121139.A54338@ikhala.tcimet.net> References: <005f01bf8b75$31b78b10$5a01a8c0@TK> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <005f01bf8b75$31b78b10$5a01a8c0@TK>; from mirobo@mbox.digsys.bg on Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 06:16:36PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Out of da blue M Pendev aka (mirobo@mbox.digsys.bg) said: > Hi people ! > > I am new in this mail list and i like Free BSD verry much, I hope that this > guys > from BSDI have brain in their heads and dont want to stop this cool OS > > Iam triyng to install Gnome Midnight Commander on FreeBSD > but without success... > > I read that i must have at least gtk and dlib in order to install it > > Have somebody make this before ? It's a port. As root do the following ... cd /usr/ports/x11-fm/gnomemc make install This is better asked on -questions ... > > M Pendev > e-mail: mirobo@mbox.digsys.bg > > > #;^) -- So ya want ta hear da roots? bush doctor Of course I run FreeBSD!! http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 8:43:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.ct.home.com (ha1.rdc1.ct.home.com [24.2.0.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D5B37BBF2 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 08:43:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tsikora@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.2.168.186]) by mail.rdc1.ct.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <20000311164345.TYMR24587.mail.rdc1.ct.home.com@home.com> for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 08:43:45 -0800 Message-ID: <38CA7790.8B31B082@home.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:42:56 -0500 From: Ted Sikora Organization: Jtl Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.15pre13 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? References: <200003101908.LAA25425@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Greenman wrote: > > >>I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement. If > >>you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any > >>one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system. > >>BSDidier has a nice ring to it. > >> > >>Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking > >>with it for quite some time to come. > > > >Ever read Animal Farm? Remember that BSD/OS started out as "cheap with > >source" and grew into "just another OS company". Good ideas can turn bad > >very quickly. > > The is all just FUD. From the FreeBSD side of things, BSDI is going to > opensource a bunch of their software that we can then integrate into FreeBSD. > We're still very much in control of the FreeBSD development effort and what > fundamentally comprises FreeBSD. In fact nothing really changes as far as > the FreeBSD Project is concerned - it's the same core team, the same > developers, and the same BSD-license source code. It's just as "free" as ever, > and nothing is going to change that. BSDI may decide not to make all of their > BSD/OS open-sourced, but that's their decision and that will in no way > deminish what we have in FreeBSD today. > As others have said, this is a win for everyone and will result in FreeBSD > being a much better open-source OS in the future. I really hope that people > will go and read the various press releases and look at this in an objective > and rational frame of mind. If you do, then there is only one conclusion that > you can get from the facts: This is a great thing for FreeBSD and our future > couldn't be brighter. I am sure of the FreeBSD Projects intentions but like the previous post things can 'turn ugly fast with the greatest intentions' The fact a for-profit company controlling it's movements is cause for concern. (mozilla comes to mind) I use BSDI and love their products but what happens when it continues to stagnate. I see this as a way to boost their own flagship product only? at FreeBSD's expense. I may be wrong but already I see my other favorite OS Slackware teetering on the edge of obscurity. I wish them the best. Regards, -- Ted Sikora Jtl Development Group tsikora@powerusersbbs.com http://powerusersbbs.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 9:20:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fb00.eng00.mindspring.net (fb00.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.200.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40A137BCA2 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:20:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtjd2.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.205.162]) by fb00.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14058; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:20:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA07397; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:24:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: kmg@bestweb.net Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? In-Reply-To: <00031017434102.00380@kevin.bestweb.net> References: <00031017434102.00380@kevin.bestweb.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000311092423U.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:24:23 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 14 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: Kevin M Geraci > Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is > doing and let Walnut Creek merge. I don't see why that thought even crossed your mind. Anyone could "spinoff" FreeBSD anytime they wanted to. So far, there has been no compelling reason to do so and it's hard to believe a splinter faction would add any value over the course that's been laid. -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 9:26:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from grande.dcc.unicamp.br (grande.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.7.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E12737BC93; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:26:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from guazzibe@dcc.unicamp.br) Received: from amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br (amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.7.11]) by grande.dcc.unicamp.br (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07403; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:26:06 -0300 (EST) Received: from xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (xingu.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.7.7]) by amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27391; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:26:03 -0300 (EST) Received: from localhost (guazzibe@localhost) by xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06597; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:26:02 -0300 (EST) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:26:02 -0300 (EST) From: Felipe Paulo Guazzi Bergo To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Getting CPU usage in FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I am the author of gPS (http://gps.seul.org) and I'm trying to finish the FreeBSD native poller. All I need now is a routine to get the CPU usage. My program needs it every quarter of second, so the loadavg value is not enough accurate for me. (the objective is the CPU/memory history window shown in the third screenshot at the website) I've already looked at the source of top but couldn't get much from there. On Linux this is what I do to get this value: Measure the number of scheduled jiffies (hundreths of second), measure elapsed time since last measurement, divide. What I need is a scheduler-oriented cpu usage poller. I have already found some symbols in the kernel that may provide this value, but I couldn't get them to scale in a closed range (when I though I got the correct factor, I got CPU usages of 1280 % and the like). I am using FreeBSD-3.4-RELEASE/i386 for development, and would like to code to be portable for the widest range of FreeBSD versions possible. Can someone help me with code or good reference ? Thanks, ......................................................................... Felipe Paulo Guazzi Bergo, undergradute in Computer Engineering guazzibe@dcc.unicamp.br || bergo@seul.org || bergo@linuxstart.com Unicamp - Campinas - SP - Brazil - Earth To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 9:26:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from grande.dcc.unicamp.br (grande.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.7.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E12737BC93; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:26:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from guazzibe@dcc.unicamp.br) Received: from amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br (amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.7.11]) by grande.dcc.unicamp.br (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07403; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:26:06 -0300 (EST) Received: from xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (xingu.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.7.7]) by amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27391; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:26:03 -0300 (EST) Received: from localhost (guazzibe@localhost) by xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06597; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:26:02 -0300 (EST) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:26:02 -0300 (EST) From: Felipe Paulo Guazzi Bergo To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Getting CPU usage in FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I am the author of gPS (http://gps.seul.org) and I'm trying to finish the FreeBSD native poller. All I need now is a routine to get the CPU usage. My program needs it every quarter of second, so the loadavg value is not enough accurate for me. (the objective is the CPU/memory history window shown in the third screenshot at the website) I've already looked at the source of top but couldn't get much from there. On Linux this is what I do to get this value: Measure the number of scheduled jiffies (hundreths of second), measure elapsed time since last measurement, divide. What I need is a scheduler-oriented cpu usage poller. I have already found some symbols in the kernel that may provide this value, but I couldn't get them to scale in a closed range (when I though I got the correct factor, I got CPU usages of 1280 % and the like). I am using FreeBSD-3.4-RELEASE/i386 for development, and would like to code to be portable for the widest range of FreeBSD versions possible. Can someone help me with code or good reference ? Thanks, ......................................................................... Felipe Paulo Guazzi Bergo, undergradute in Computer Engineering guazzibe@dcc.unicamp.br || bergo@seul.org || bergo@linuxstart.com Unicamp - Campinas - SP - Brazil - Earth To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 9:28:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0049937BECA for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:28:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA85318; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Didier Derny Cc: Warner Losh , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:11:50 GMT." Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:28:35 -0800 Message-ID: <85315.952795715@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I hope I'm totally wrong and that FreeBSD will continue as it was before And I hope that people will actually wait to SEE if they're wrong before acting as if they really know how this is all going to turn out, as it appears you and several other people are already doing in extremely premature fashion. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 9:31:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34EC337BC93 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:31:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA89363; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:31:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Didier Derny Cc: Chuck Robey , Dennis , Wes Peters , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:16:51 GMT." Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:31:29 -0800 Message-ID: <89360.952795889@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > One day we will discover that we can't use FreeBSD as freely and / or > with the same quality. I wish you doom-sayers would actually come up with some conclusive rationale for your fears here. Nobody has yet to come up with a single reason as to how or why all these disaster scenarios would come to pass and there has been considerable evidence to the contrary already presented here. All I see here are a lot of fears and unfounded statements about who BSDI are or what they're going to be in a year's time. If you think you know all the answers to those questions, please introduce me to your fortune teller! Otherwise, I'd say you're doing a lot more harm than good with this kind of speculation and have to seriously question your motives at this point. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 9:35:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C9EF37BCA8 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:35:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtjd2.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.205.162]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15654; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:35:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from jhix (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA07450; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:39:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@jhix.mindspring.com) Message-Id: <200003111739.JAA07450@mindspring.com> To: Felipe Paulo Guazzi Bergo Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Getting CPU usage in FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:26:02 -0300." Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:39:26 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Felipe, (You should probably be targeting -current for software under development) Perhaps consulting /usr/src/usr.bin/top/machine.c might offer up some clues. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 9:35:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D95637BCA8 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:35:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mail.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC1791D132; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:35:30 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <38CA83E3.BF8F39E3@originative.co.uk> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:35:31 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer Cc: John Grimes , Wes Peters , Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?(NO) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer wrote: > > On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, John Grimes wrote: > > > On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > I don't entirely agree with the statement above. I would like to mention a > > point to ponder. In the 13th paragraph of the announcement on the > > FreeBSD.org website, I quote the following, "BSDI will continue to > > distribute packaged versions of FreeBSD...." Is this another way of saying > > that in the future that the distribution of FreeBSD may take on the Sun model > > for their "free" operating system software, which you pay $$$ for the media, and > > it is not freely downloadable from the net nor freely distributable? > > > This shows a lack of knowledg of the present set-up. > > Walnut creek is not presently responsible for FreeBSD, the FreeBSD source > or FreeBSD development. > The merger of WC and BSDI can not therefore change any of these > things. These things have been overseen by teh core-group and FreeBSD inc. It's interesting that everyone is jumping up and down worrying about the effect that the merger between BSDI and WC will have. As you say, in *theory* FreeBSD has nothing to do with WC and is a totally independent project. In practice however WC has manoeuvered their market position over the last few years to be the "FreeBSD company" rather than a seller of cdroms. It's worth noting that BSDI isn't merging with WC because they need a cdrom division, they're merging with WC because to all intents and purposes they own many of the assets of the FreeBSD project. Most of the resources of the project are held by WC and a fair number of the key developers are on the payroll. > > In the new picture this differentiation is even more marked. > > BSDI will rely on FreeBSD being successful, but they will not be > controlling it. > this in my mind is a very brave move, and one I wouldn't make lightly. > > The only thing WC is (was) responsible for is the agreement with FreeBSD > inc, (and the developers) that they are responsible for producing the CD > image and selling it. The cost of this to them is that they pay for > Jordan's time to produce actual snapshots to sell. > > Since WC didn't control any more than the server for the CVS tree, and > since we all have mirrors of that thanks to cvsup, if they decided to > make it unfree, then we as the FreeBSD development group would just > nominate a different central server and life would continue as before, ... > without them. I think a wait and see attitude is best for everyone here. Let's give WC and BSDI the benefit of the doubt and see how things unfold. The press releases all sound like they are along the right lines, in that a FreeBSD not for profit organisation will be set up and control of the project (including the trademark) will be passed over to it. All things I've been an advocate of for many years. Will all the core team members become directors in this new company? The devil is in the detail. If the core team is stuffed full of WC and BSDI employees, who have a responsibility to their employer as well as to the project, then there will clearly be conflicts of interest and an undoubted leaning to solutions and methods of management that fit the commercial interests of their employer. This is a fact of life, we all do it to different degrees and I wouldn't hold it against core members who did to some extent. The only concerns I have regarding this merger is whether the core team will remain impartial enough in it's decisions regarding the project and how much influence the new company will have on its decisions. It's a question of balance, given the resources that WC/BSDI will be putting behind the project it's to be expected they will wield some influence over what happens in the future, and it should be noted that some of these guys will have very pertinent input to the discussion given who they are. We should be careful though to make sure that the core team has the best interests of FreeBSD in mind when they make decisions. One of the things that they will need to be very careful of is a tendency to favour their employer when it comes to supporting commercial ventures. There are other people in the business who make a living out of FreeBSD and it would be damaging to the project as a whole if the core team became an advocate of WC/BSDI above all the other commercial companies who support FreeBSD. I have definate concerns in this area given that there is undoubtedly a bias to pushing WC FreeBSD products at the moment. I'd like to the see the core team being more prominent in promoting FreeBSD to other commercial backers, rather than continuing to push WC as the home of FreeBSD. Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 9:44:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79DB537BCC8 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:44:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA92409; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:44:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Didier Derny Cc: Sam Leffler , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:33:07 GMT." Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:44:47 -0800 Message-ID: <92406.952796687@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > the equations are quite simple Only if you're taking powerful drugs, perhaps. There are a number of things which are hardly "simple" here and let's go over them: > bsd/os = $$ for bsdi > freebsd = lack of bsd/os sold by bsdi --> lack of $$ for bsdi False. If BSDI thought there was no money in selling support, consulting and training services for FreeBSD (none of which involve "selling bits") then there would have been no reason to merge the companies. You're thinking one-dimensionally here at best. > merge + give code to freebsd --> lack of $$ but future investment > bsdi unhappy to have given code but thinking to the future > freebsd users happy of the new features I don't even understand quite what you're trying to say here, but even assuming that there are lots of new features we could become "addicted" to (and that's an awfully strange concept) indicates that you're not actually that familiar with the BSD/OS code base. There are SOME features we may be interested in going forward, but only some. It's the cooperative work we can do going forward in FreeBSD that interests me a lot more than BSD/OS's feature set now. If you want to do something more concrete than just spread FUD, however, then perhaps you can tell ME just what these features we're supposed to get and become addicted to are. Be specific! You've already thrown out enough vague and unsubstantiated crap to completely lose any credibility you might have once had here, so perhaps it's time for you to stop doing that. > bsdi is doing everything to slow down the development of freebsd... AHA! And tell me please just how that's supposed to happen? Again, some credible specifics would be a good idea right about now. > freebsd is late behind bsd/os > some freebsd users have started to pay for bsd/os [too many drivers / > features are missing in freebsd and bsd/os is the nearest compatible > system so it's easyier to move from freebsd to bsd/os rather than to > linux] And now I know you're off in the weeds somewhere, looking for a pipe. The actual reality of the situation is likely to be quite the opposite given that there are hundreds of FreeBSD developers and, at last count, somewhere around 10 BSD/OS developers. Since none of these hundreds of FreeBSD developers can be prevented from doing their work (and if you think so, again, be SPECIFIC as to how and why) I can't see how any of this makes any sense. In short, Didier, I think it's time for you to end this thread since you're clearly in the grip of a paranoia so deep that it borders on the clinical at this point. I don't see any rationality to your arguments, just a lot of fear and general hand-waving. I can understand the fear since these are new and uncertain times, but the hand-waving we can really do without. If you want to go run OpenBSD or NetBSD now, that's your choice and I daresay that there are now many here who would be quite happy to see you do so. This kind of insubstantial and unsubstantiated FUD we can all really do without. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 9:45:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705B437BCA7 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:40:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA72234; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 19:39:57 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 19:39:57 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: kmg@bestweb.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? In-Reply-To: <20000311092423U.jhix@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > From: Kevin M Geraci > > Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is > > doing and let Walnut Creek merge. > > I don't see why that thought even crossed your mind. > > Anyone could "spinoff" FreeBSD anytime they wanted to. > So far, there has been no compelling reason to do so > and it's hard to believe a splinter faction would add > any value over the course that's been laid. > And those harbouriong such thoughts should dig into the archives and find Terry's mail on "why not TerryBSD". > -- > Jerry Hicks > jhix@mindspring.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 9:49:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE5337BCC8 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:49:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA93941; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:50:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: jegjr@erols.com Cc: Wes Peters , Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 08:52:02 EST." <00031109145000.25510@deinonychus.erols.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:50:02 -0800 Message-ID: <93937.952797002@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > FreeBSD.org website, I quote the following, "BSDI will continue to > distribute packaged versions of FreeBSD...." Is this another way of saying > that in the future that the distribution of FreeBSD may take on the Sun model > for their "free" operating system software, which you pay $$$ for the media, and > it is not freely downloadable from the net nor freely distributable? No, it is not another way of saying that. In fact, in other press announcements BSDI has been very clear in saying that it will offer the SAME degree of support that Walnut Creek CDROM did, and that includes making it available for download. Heck, if we stopped doing that I can also tell you exactly what would happen: Someone else would start making ISO images and putting them up on the net and CheapBYTES, who already sells CDs very cheaply, would make even more money. The FreeBSD genie is out of the bottle and has been for over 7 years now. Any attempts to put it back in are doomed to failure and everyone at BSDI knows this very well already. Do you folks honestly think I haven't covered this in great detail in our pre-merger discussions already? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 9:56:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1CCD37BC98 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:56:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA99633; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:56:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Julian Elischer Cc: John Grimes , Wes Peters , Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?(NO) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:19:10 PST." Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:56:19 -0800 Message-ID: <99630.952797379@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Since WC didn't control any more than the server for the CVS tree, and > since we all have mirrors of that thanks to cvsup, if they decided to > make it unfree, then we as the FreeBSD development group would just > nominate a different central server and life would continue as before, ... > without them. Thank you for making this point. Sometimes I see things like this as being so obvious that I forget that others may not, in fact, see them at all. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 9:59:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE9B37BCA1 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:59:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03323; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:59:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Ted Sikora Cc: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:42:56 EST." <38CA7790.8B31B082@home.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:59:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3272.952797590@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I am sure of the FreeBSD Projects intentions but like the previous post > things can 'turn ugly fast with the greatest intentions' The fact a > for-profit company controlling it's movements is cause for concern. How many different ways can we say this? THE COMPANY DOES NOT CONTROL THE FREEBSD PROJECT'S MOVEMENTS. It can't! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 10:10:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8DA37BD22 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 10:10:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA72543; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:09:27 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:09:27 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: <3272.952797590@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I am sure of the FreeBSD Projects intentions but like the previous post > > things can 'turn ugly fast with the greatest intentions' The fact a > > for-profit company controlling it's movements is cause for concern. > > How many different ways can we say this? THE COMPANY DOES NOT CONTROL > THE FREEBSD PROJECT'S MOVEMENTS. It can't! Heh. Are you sure arguing with them isn't futile? For some reason, they have taken upon to bear a banner (and a big one at that) with the lettering "*WE* will stand up for poor little FreeBSD, if nobody else does". Not even thinking if FreeBSD needed standing up for, was poor, or for that matter little. Think of them as of people who watch "Tom and Jerry" and then start organising pickets in front of governement buildings bearing banners "Don't let mice exterminate cats!" > > - Jordan > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 10:14:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nyct.net (bsd4.nyct.net [204.141.86.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D801C37BCE1 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 10:14:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) Received: from bsd1.nyct.net (mbac@bsd1.nyct.net [204.141.86.3]) by mail.nyct.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06434; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:14:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) Received: from localhost (mbac@localhost) by bsd1.nyct.net (8.8.8/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14338; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:14:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) X-Authentication-Warning: bsd1.nyct.net: mbac owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:14:09 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Bacarella To: Dennis Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... In-Reply-To: <200003101840.NAA12885@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> >What are their alternatives? Think about how the world is waking up to > >> >Open Source. Think about how companies are realizing that a small group > >> >of paid engineers simply can't keep up with a world-wide organization of > >> >contributors. What would you do if you didn't feel you could keep up? > Open Source is a lot of bunk. People want stuff that works. Linux is > growing in popularity because since 2.2 came out it actually works well. > Linux had the marketing in place and they are soaring. We sell 10 to 1 > linux now. I was getting bloodied pushing FreeBSD. Its like selling tax > custs to poor people. Its bad politics, no matter how right it is. > the people buying linux servers from VAR research and the like dont care > about source, they care about functinality. Thats why BSDI doesnt get it. > its not about the source, its about the price. People perceive that BSD/OS > and FreeBSD are substantially similar in functionalty, and freebsd is free. > The source is only important to a tiny, tiny portion of the market. The > hackers list is not the market...corporate america is the market. > We all have source to the eepro driver but if DG doesnt fix it it doesnt > get fixed. I'll take a driver that works anyday over the option to fix it > myself. and so will most commercial entities. The very fact that source is available means that you can pay any scruffy unshaven hacker to fix it for you, instead of suffering at the hands and whims of, say, a FreeBSD "vendor" as you are doing. I would figure that at least you (of all people) realize that someone else can come in and get it done, and that you could optionally pay someone to do this. Open source leaves businesses in control, which is something that I've seen more than 1 PHB consider. There's little I can do if I'm running NT in that scenario. So, yes, I would definitely buy what works. -MB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 10:16:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kweetal.tue.nl (kweetal.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC3837BCA9 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 10:16:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcov@toad.stack.nl) Received: from hermes.tue.nl [131.155.2.46] by kweetal.tue.nl (8.9.3) for id TAA25424 (ESMTP); Sat, 11 Mar 2000 19:16:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from deathstar (n156.dial.tue.nl [131.155.209.155]) by hermes.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEFFD2E804 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 19:16:01 +0100 (CET) From: "Marco van de Voort" To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 19:13:59 +0100 Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? References: <38C960E2.3D58BD4B@cybercable.fr> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Message-Id: <20000311181601.BEFFD2E804@hermes.tue.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Then, what are the benefits for both parties ? > > > > For the FreeBSD project : > > - many more supported platforms (Sparc, PowerPC, Arm ?) Merced? ......... > definately. I'm not sure if that is a good thing if it is pursued by the core team, at least not for impopular or older targets. > Access to the developer pool ? Sure, and with that accesss to internal maillists (if they exist), cc's of bugreports etc. Very important point I think. Generating quality feedback is always a problem, and now the FreeBSD developpers will provide their own quality feedback, AND distille the high quality feedback from the large volume of feedback from news and email. Marco van de Voort (MarcoV@Stack.nl) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 10:19:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F398C37BC02 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 10:19:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsi@panix.com) Received: from panix6.panix.com (panix6.panix.com [166.84.0.231]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C6315676; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rsi@localhost) by panix6.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id NAA01039; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:19:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200003111819.NAA01039@panix6.panix.com> X-Authentication-Warning: panix6.panix.com: rsi set sender to rsi@panix.com using -f To: Paul Richards Cc: Julian Elischer , John Grimes , Wes Peters , Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?(NO) References: <38CA83E3.BF8F39E3@originative.co.uk> From: Rajappa Iyer Date: 11 Mar 2000 13:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: rsi@panix.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Paul Richards writes: > The devil is in the detail. If the core team is stuffed full of WC and > BSDI employees, who have a responsibility to their employer as well as > to the project, then there will clearly be conflicts of interest and an > undoubted leaning to solutions and methods of management that fit the > commercial interests of their employer. The question really boils down to: do we trust the core team members to look out for the best interests of the community? Nothing I've seen or heard so far indicates that there is reason to be concerned about that, but even if that happy situation does not persist, the community is larger than the core team. If, at any time, the community feels that the core team does not represent its best interests, I'm sure that appropriate remedies can be applied---from gentle advocacy to changing the core team members. If even that doesn't work, there is always the solution of last resort: forking. That said, I must repeat: I have seen evidence of nothing but the highest degree of integrity on part of the core team members and as such they deserve not just our appreciation, but trust as well. I see no reason to be concerned about the demise of FreeBSD as we know and love it. Rajappa -- a.k.a. Rajappa Iyer. New York, New York. Where would we be without rhetorical questions? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 10:35:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C37137BB7C for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 10:35:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA45224; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:32:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:32:33 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey To: Paul Richards Cc: Julian Elischer , John Grimes , Wes Peters , Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?(NO) In-Reply-To: <38CA83E3.BF8F39E3@originative.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: > It's interesting that everyone is jumping up and down worrying about the > effect that the merger between BSDI and WC will have. As you say, in > *theory* FreeBSD has nothing to do with WC and is a totally independent > project. > > In practice however WC has manoeuvered their market position over the > last few years to be the "FreeBSD company" rather than a seller of > cdroms. It's worth noting that BSDI isn't merging with WC because they > need a cdrom division, they're merging with WC because to all intents > and purposes they own many of the assets of the FreeBSD project. Most of > the resources of the project are held by WC and a fair number of the key > developers are on the payroll. I do hope that BSDI doesn't minimize that part of WC; a lot of WC's other cdroms are really nice ones. Anyhow, guys, you're handling this thing with the paranoid crowd all wrong. We need to post this notice on Hackers: NOTICE: We know who you are! Anyone making strange, baseless accusations about a very unlikely BSDI conspiracy, we're going to put you on a List! A VERY SECRET list. We won't tell you who's on the List! Please post about it again, so we can get your names! The CIA will get this List! The US Post Office will get this List! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 10:41:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62E337BC85 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 10:41:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from dbsys (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA17534; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:41:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200003111841.NAA17534@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:36:31 -0500 To: hackers@freebsd.org From: Dennis Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <200003101840.NAA12885@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG mbac@nyct.net writes... >The very fact that source is available means that you can pay any scruffy >unshaven hacker to fix it for you, instead of suffering at the hands and >whims of, say, a FreeBSD "vendor" as you are doing. I would figure that at >least you (of all people) realize that someone else can come in and get it >done, and that you could optionally pay someone to do this. Not realistically. First of all, most "scruffy unshaven hackers" are not qualified to make serious changes to important drivers. they might be able to find a stray pointer, but not to make structural improvement. Stray pointers shouldnt exist in the first place. Plus, you'll want DGs next version (say in 4.0), and you dont want to pay some college drop out $100. an hour to hack it every time a new intel chip comes out. Commercial companies that modify the mainstream stuff (cobalt networks for example, stuck on 2.2.12, working on 2.2.14 and 2.2.15+ comes out) are constantly battling to keep up. You almost HAVE to use the mainstream code. Another point is that Open Source is virtually synonomous with "Totally undocumented". The linux community, years into it, are still totally dependent on Alan Cox to fix drivers properly (mostly because the OS is completely undocumented and changes are made on a whim regularly). D. Becker continues to be the only one that can properly fix the ethernet drivers because they are such a mess and poorly documented. My point was that because of open source you have an unfinished product that never gets finished. The "fix it if you want...you have the source" mentality is not what corporate america wants. they want the opposite. Many of them won't even use open source products without guaranteed support. You are a hacker, you are incapable of understanding. You are like a guy who fixes his own car...but the "world" is the 98% that cant. I dont want a car with a great warranty. I want a car the doesnt need a warranty. The reason that the "free" os's are becoming popular is that, for most functions, they work out of the box with few bugs. BSDI's existing support sucks by the way...There is zero way they can offer better support than the existing "informal" structure that exists. dennis Emerging Technologies, Inc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- http://www.etinc.com ISA and PCI T1/T3/V35/HSSI Cards for FreeBSD and LINUX Multiport T1 and HSSI/T3 UNIX-based Routers Bandwidth Management Standalone Systems Bandwidth Management software for LINUX and FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 10:45:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nyct.net (bsd4.nyct.net [204.141.86.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2C037BCC8 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 10:45:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) Received: from bsd1.nyct.net (mbac@bsd1.nyct.net [204.141.86.3]) by mail.nyct.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10387; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:45:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) Received: from localhost (mbac@localhost) by bsd1.nyct.net (8.8.8/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15783; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:45:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) X-Authentication-Warning: bsd1.nyct.net: mbac owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:45:32 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Bacarella To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: <89360.952795889@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > One day we will discover that we can't use FreeBSD as freely and / or > > with the same quality. > I wish you doom-sayers would actually come up with some conclusive > rationale for your fears here. Nobody has yet to come up with a > single reason as to how or why all these disaster scenarios would come > to pass and there has been considerable evidence to the contrary > already presented here. > All I see here are a lot of fears and unfounded statements about who > BSDI are or what they're going to be in a year's time. If you think > you know all the answers to those questions, please introduce me to > your fortune teller! Otherwise, I'd say you're doing a lot more harm > than good with this kind of speculation and have to seriously question > your motives at this point. I'm not a doom-sayer, but try to understand this from our point of view. Corporations care only for their interests. Their stockholders will be pissed if they act otherwise. Do you really think there's something wrong with people who are scrutinizing this move? We all love FreeBSD and don't want anything bad to happen to it. Your view of this will obviously be different from ours since you actually discussed this merger with BSDI --- Wait, JUST HOW LONG has this been going on anyway? You've probably been discussing this for at least more than 24 hours. Did it ever cross your mind to ask WE, the faithful FreeBSD users for some input? Were you anticipating this unfound resentment to the merger and felt that a better course of action would be to approve the move, and just let everyone whine after the fact, as opposed to let everyone whine during the fact, and cause more outrage if you went ahead and did it despite protests? Perhaps some people are feeling left out, maybe even betrayed. I would have a hard time believing that you can't understand that, having dealt with the user base for as many years as you have. The fact that nobody (except maybe your trusted circle of supporters) was made aware of this beforehand only adds to our suspicion now, even if your actions were totally innocent. In fact, personally I think you're just stupid, as opposed to malicious. :) You will have to do a lot to convince the naysayers otherwise, though. -MB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 10:46:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11DE537BC85 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 10:46:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA73098; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:45:59 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:45:59 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Marco van de Voort Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: <20000311181601.BEFFD2E804@hermes.tue.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Marco van de Voort wrote: > > > Then, what are the benefits for both parties ? > > > > > > For the FreeBSD project : > > > - many more supported platforms (Sparc, PowerPC, Arm ?) > > Merced? ......... > > > definately. > > I'm not sure if that is a good thing if it is pursued by the core team, > at least not for impopular or older targets. > Which targets would these be? ARM? Note that for the code - when it is available for integration - needs to be actually integrated by somebody, not to mention the userland, maintenance, etc. > > Marco van de Voort (MarcoV@Stack.nl) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 11:37:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from tardis.patho.gen.nz (tardis.patho.gen.nz [203.97.2.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F8D37BC20 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:37:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jabley@tardis.patho.gen.nz) Received: (from jabley@localhost) by tardis.patho.gen.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00282; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 08:37:40 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 08:37:38 +1300 From: Joe Abley To: Dennis Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... Message-ID: <20000312083736.A27614@patho.gen.nz> References: <200003101840.NAA12885@etinc.com> <200003111841.NAA17534@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200003111841.NAA17534@etinc.com>; from dennis@etinc.com on Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:36:31PM -0500 X-Files: the Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:36:31PM -0500, Dennis wrote: > Not realistically. First of all, most "scruffy unshaven hackers" are not > qualified to make serious changes to important drivers. they might be able > to find a stray pointer, but not to make structural improvement. This is just silly. > Another point is that Open Source is virtually synonomous with "Totally > undocumented". This is sillier. > My point was that because of open source you have an unfinished product > that never gets finished. That's the description of a product that is still alive. A product on which development stops is a dead product. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 11:39:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9994237BCE0 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:39:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13386; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:39:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:39:34 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <200003111939.LAA13386@kithrup.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article you write: >merge + give code to freebsd --> lack of $$ but future investment >bsdi unhappy to have given code but thinking to the future >freebsd users happy of the new features Er, no. I've known a lot of the BSDi folks since before there was a FreeBSD. One of them, who is not with the company any longer, _might_ have felt that way -- but, then, given the popularity of Linux, he quite likely would have changed his mind. One engineer at BSDi has told me he's quite happy to be working on free software again. I don't deny that I have some trepidation about it, but nobody is entering into this with any "evil intents." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 11:47:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F177B37BD09 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:47:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA34618; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:47:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:47:18 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Michael Bacarella Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Michael Bacarella wrote: > > On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > One day we will discover that we can't use FreeBSD as freely and / or > > > with the same quality. > > > I wish you doom-sayers would actually come up with some conclusive > > rationale for your fears here. Nobody has yet to come up with a > > single reason as to how or why all these disaster scenarios would come > > to pass and there has been considerable evidence to the contrary > > already presented here. > > > All I see here are a lot of fears and unfounded statements about who > > BSDI are or what they're going to be in a year's time. If you think > > you know all the answers to those questions, please introduce me to > > your fortune teller! Otherwise, I'd say you're doing a lot more harm > > than good with this kind of speculation and have to seriously question > > your motives at this point. > > I'm not a doom-sayer, but try to understand this from our point of view. > > Corporations care only for their interests. Their stockholders will be > pissed if they act otherwise. Do you really think there's something wrong > with people who are scrutinizing this move? We all love FreeBSD and don't > want anything bad to happen to it. > > Your view of this will obviously be different from ours since you actually > discussed this merger with BSDI --- Wait, JUST HOW LONG has this been > going on anyway? You've probably been discussing this for at least more > than 24 hours. Did it ever cross your mind to ask WE, the faithful FreeBSD > users for some input? Were you anticipating this unfound resentment to the > merger and felt that a better course of action would be to approve the > move, and just let everyone whine after the fact, as opposed to let > everyone whine during the fact, and cause more outrage if you went ahead > and did it despite protest. I've know about it for about 5 months so it's definitly not 24 hours, however you are STILL misunderstanding the situation.. nobody is buying or merging with FreeBSD inc. BSDI is merging with WC. WC had no control over FreeBSD except to teh a SUBCONTRACTOR to FreeBSD inc. In effect this is the situation: FreeBSD inc hired WC to produce the CDs and in fact it was not even an exclusive thing. In return WC payed for the costs of doing the organisation work needed to produce regular releases. BSDI is merging with the subcontractor. This no more affects FreeBSD than if the local pizza manufacurer (also crucial to freeBSD) were to be sold. The biggest difference is: Because of this change, BSDI personell will be spending time working on freeBSD. SOME of there staff are already WEEL KNOWN and in HIGHLY REGARDED in the BSD world due to the fact that they created it. These people will therefore be accepted into the BSD world at a rank that one would expect. Mike Karels, As a major architect of BSD in general will be going into core. This would happen should he suddenly switch to using FreeBSD no matter what the situation (Merger or no merger). Mike WROTE THE SOCKETS CODE and as such he's already served his time. Don't confuse the (re)enterance of the old BSD guys (and associated shake-ups as some responsibilities are re-arranged,) with the merger of two separate companies, both of which are separate from freebsd inc. and the core group. > > Perhaps some people are feeling left out, maybe even betrayed. I would > have a hard time believing that you can't understand that, having dealt > with the user base for as many years as you have. You seem to consider that WC was in someway beholden to the FreeBSD developers. The organisation you are thinking of is FreeBSD inc. and THAT is not involved (except in an indirect manner) in this deal. WC payed many of the costs of FreeBSD inc. (e.g. supplied office space and support staff) but is was never in control of freeBSD, nor did it ever try to be so, instead, accepting the releases to publish as we threw them over the wall. AT OUR SCHEDULE (we, the developers). > > The fact that nobody (except maybe your trusted circle of supporters) was > made aware of this beforehand only adds to our suspicion now, even if your > actions were totally innocent. In fact, personally I think you're just > stupid, as opposed to malicious. :) There has been no change to the status of FreeBSD, other than the influx of some old developers back into this fold. Our printing subcontractor has however changed it's name. does this clear up the difficulty for you? did they need to clear this with you first? Julian > > You will have to do a lot to convince the naysayers otherwise, though. > > -MB > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 11:49:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C793037BC85 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:49:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA73960; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:49:13 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:49:12 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Dennis Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Well, not in theory... In-Reply-To: <200003111841.NAA17534@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Dennis wrote: > mbac@nyct.net writes... > > >The very fact that source is available means that you can pay any scruffy > >unshaven hacker to fix it for you, instead of suffering at the hands and > >whims of, say, a FreeBSD "vendor" as you are doing. I would figure that at > >least you (of all people) realize that someone else can come in and get it > >done, and that you could optionally pay someone to do this. > [snip - paying a dropout $100/h to fix drivers] > Another point is that Open Source is virtually synonomous with "Totally > undocumented". The linux community, years into it, are still totally > dependent on Alan Cox to fix drivers properly (mostly because the OS is > completely undocumented and changes are made on a whim regularly). D. > Becker continues to be the only one that can properly fix the ethernet > drivers because they are such a mess and poorly documented. Why haven't you considered hiring somebody to document the parts you are intersted in? Would solve at least half the problem... [snip] > > dennis > Emerging Technologies, Inc. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > > http://www.etinc.com > ISA and PCI T1/T3/V35/HSSI Cards for FreeBSD and LINUX > Multiport T1 and HSSI/T3 UNIX-based Routers > Bandwidth Management Standalone Systems > Bandwidth Management software for LINUX and FreeBSD > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 12: 4:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6172F37BD78 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:04:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id BC1F02DC0A; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:09:08 +0100 (CET) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 06AF87811; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:03:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA4F10E16; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:03:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:03:38 +0100 (CET) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: <89360.952795889@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > your fortune teller! Otherwise, I'd say you're doing a lot more harm > than good with this kind of speculation and have to seriously question > your motives at this point. (Well, I was going to stay away, but I can stand it no longer...) Be sure all of you that there are many (majority?) people who regard this merge as something very promising, giving us fantastic opportunities. If you hear the voices of doom-sayers here, it's only because many other people are so content that they just sit on a sofa, purring and thinking of the possibilities... Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 12:37:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nyct.net (bsd4.nyct.net [204.141.86.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0136237BCCB for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:37:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) Received: from bsd1.nyct.net (mbac@bsd1.nyct.net [204.141.86.3]) by mail.nyct.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24237; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:37:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) Received: from localhost (mbac@localhost) by bsd1.nyct.net (8.8.8/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20441; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:37:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mbac@nyct.net) X-Authentication-Warning: bsd1.nyct.net: mbac owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:37:38 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Bacarella To: Julian Elischer Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I'm not a doom-sayer, but try to understand this from our point of view. [..snip..] > does this clear up the difficulty for you? > did they need to clear this with you first? I had no difficulties in the first place. I entirely support this. I was just speculating as to why people could be upset, and what possible POVs they might have. Simply dismissing them as mal-intents is the wrong way to treat their confusion. -MB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 12:45:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from primary.rci.net (mail.rci.net [209.251.132.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D541637B84A for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:45:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jar@integratus.com) Received: from integratus.com (169.p1.dialup.gru.net [198.190.223.169]) by primary.rci.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24472 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:45:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jar@integratus.com) Message-ID: <38CAB056.8ED3662C@integratus.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:45:10 -0500 From: Jack Rusher Organization: Integratus, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Histrionic Ranting... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dear Hackers, In all of the discussion that has poured forth in the aftermath of the press release concerning the merging of Walnut Creek and BSDI, no one seems to have stated this simple fact: this merger brings an amazing team (back) together to work on the collective product that will be the future of both free and commercial BSD; Karels, McKusick, Leffler, Torek, etc. To my mind there has only been one other group in the last thirty years (Kernigan, Ritchie, Pike, Bach, etc) that has done as much for the state of modern computing. When you add in the value brought to the project by people like Greenman, Hubbard, Fagen, Lehey, and the rest of the FreeBSD team, and then layer on top of that the tremendous resources of the contributing user base, well... it makes me want to send off my resume to see if I can do anything to help--not scream bloody murder. Yours, -- Jack Rusher, Senior Software Engineer | mailto:jar@integratus.com Integratus, Inc. | http://www.integratus.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 13: 6: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267FE37BAC9 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:06:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6797B1C5D; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:06:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:06:00 -0500 From: Bill Fumerola To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Ted Sikora , "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Message-ID: <20000311160600.H25438@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <38CA7790.8B31B082@home.com> <3272.952797590@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3272.952797590@zippy.cdrom.com>; from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com on Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 09:59:50AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 09:59:50AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I am sure of the FreeBSD Projects intentions but like the previous post > > things can 'turn ugly fast with the greatest intentions' The fact a > > for-profit company controlling it's movements is cause for concern. > > How many different ways can we say this? THE COMPANY DOES NOT CONTROL > THE FREEBSD PROJECT'S MOVEMENTS. It can't! A little perspective for the naysayers: I do not work for Walnut Creek. I am a FreeBSD committer, I could call Bob Bruce, Pat Reitz, or BSDI high level people and tell them off and curse and swear or talk about their mothers. I would still be a FreeBSD committer. BSDI/WC can't take that away. (I'd imagine Jordan would be pissed, but I'm trying to prove a point, work with me..). WC/BSDI could take away the bandwidth. WC/BSDI could take away the hosting of servers, there are a ton of people with servers and bandwidth that would take over exactly what hub/freefall/bento/etc do right now. The USWest machines are living proof of that. I'd even venture to say that Jordan (and core) already have contingent plans for such a "disaster". Is it true that FreeBSD has benefited because of Walnut Creek's financial backing, yes. Is it also true that so many people are involved with FreeBSD who work for companies MUCH larger then WC that similar arrangements coudld be made quickly, yes. Is it true that when all 185+ committers and the thousands of submitters/developers saw that something bad happened that they would just keep on truckin' with the relocated FreeBSD machines, yes. FreeBSD is the community, not the physical machines that host it. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 13:29:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.x-treme.gr (mail2.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F96B37B815 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:28:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat56.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.248]) by mail2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with SMTP id XAA29942 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:28:32 +0200 Received: (qmail 98352 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Mar 2000 14:21:13 -0000 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:21:13 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Kevin M Geraci , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead? Message-ID: <20000311162113.C98032@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <00031017484704.00380@kevin.bestweb.net> <20000311045101.U14279@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000311045101.U14279@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 04:51:01AM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E X-Phone-Number: +30-94-6203692, +30-93-2886457 X-Address: Theodorou Kirinaiou 61, 26334 Patra, Greece Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 04:51:01AM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Kevin M Geraci [000311 03:54] wrote: > > Maybe FreeBSD needs to "spin off" like Slackware is doing > > and let Walnut Creek merge with BSDi with out FreeBSD. > > We'd be better off if people making suggestions like this would > "spin off". A great deal better, since all it takes to see what will come from the merger is a little tiny bit of patience. Those who impatiently start suggesting spin offs and other such funny things are definitely not, uhm, patient enough for me to work with :/ -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > For my public PGP key: finger keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr PGP fingerprint, phone and address in the headers of this message. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 13:55:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9670137BC84 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:55:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28659; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:50:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003112150.NAA28659@implode.root.com> To: Bill Fumerola Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ted Sikora , "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:06:00 EST." <20000311160600.H25438@jade.chc-chimes.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:50:17 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >me..). WC/BSDI could take away the bandwidth. WC/BSDI could take away the >hosting of servers, there are a ton of people with servers and bandwidth >that would take over exactly what hub/freefall/bento/etc do right now. The >USWest machines are living proof of that. > >I'd even venture to say that Jordan (and core) already have contingent plans >for such a "disaster". Yes, that is why the freebsd.org DNS is controlled by me with the primary server on my DSL connection here in my home. No matter what happens in Concord, I can re-target freebsd.org resources to non-WC machines in a matter of minutes. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 14:10:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F7D37BD1C for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:10:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05729; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:10:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Michael Bacarella Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:45:32 EST." Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:10:34 -0800 Message-ID: <5726.952812634@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Corporations care only for their interests. Their stockholders will be > pissed if they act otherwise. Do you really think there's something wrong > with people who are scrutinizing this move? No, I only feel there's something wrong with those who are both scrutinizing it and jumping to a lot of premature conclusions about it. I expect scrutiny. I don't expect chicken-little running around and yelling about the sky falling. > Your view of this will obviously be different from ours since you actually > discussed this merger with BSDI --- Wait, JUST HOW LONG has this been > going on anyway? You've probably been discussing this for at least more Since around August of last year, and if you think that it would have been prudent for me to discuss something as sensitive (to BSDI) as a potential merger in this mailing list then you're completely off-base. All through our discussions, BSDI was terrified that word would get out prematurely, their customers would hear about it, and sales of BSD/OS would drop to zero as everyone waited to see what the next move was. Which could very well have been nothing. I've been involved in two merger attempts which collapsed just hours before signing (that being when the real issues tend to come up) and we honestly weren't sure there WOULD be a merger until last Friday. BSDI requested our discretion on this until it was done-deal and we understood why. Now that said, we DID have some sensitivity to this taking people by surprise and that's why the entire core team also met with BSDI upper management last October and set some of the framework in place. We also sent out an announcement to everyone in -committers (the ostensible developers of FreeBSD), and that's over 150 people, last year when it looked like this might even be a serious prospect. Just getting BSDI to agree to let us do that was like pulling teeth, the "leak" prospects from over 150 people in-the-know being pretty big. If you think I could have just blythly discussed this in -hackers without shooting the whole deal dead in the process (BSDI would have considered that an irrevokable breach of trust) then there's certainly someone being stupid in this discussion, but it's not me. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 14:19:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles517.castles.com [208.214.165.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E12B37B920 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:19:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05737; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:20:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <200003112220.OAA05737@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Michael Bacarella Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:45:32 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:20:44 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > All I see here are a lot of fears and unfounded statements about who > > BSDI are or what they're going to be in a year's time. If you think > > you know all the answers to those questions, please introduce me to > > your fortune teller! Otherwise, I'd say you're doing a lot more harm > > than good with this kind of speculation and have to seriously question > > your motives at this point. > > I'm not a doom-sayer, but try to understand this from our point of view. Prozac. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 14:22: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EED0B37BA9B for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:21:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05842; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:22:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Ted Sikora , "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:06:00 EST." <20000311160600.H25438@jade.chc-chimes.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:22:26 -0800 Message-ID: <5839.952813346@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > me..). WC/BSDI could take away the bandwidth. WC/BSDI could take away the > hosting of servers, there are a ton of people with servers and bandwidth > that would take over exactly what hub/freefall/bento/etc do right now. The > USWest machines are living proof of that. > > I'd even venture to say that Jordan (and core) already have contingent plans > for such a "disaster". We have more than contingency plans - we're seriously investigating moving everything to a co-location facility at this point purely for bandwidth reasons. As much as we've sincerely appreciated its use all these years, from a connectivity perspective Walnut Creek CDROM's T1 connection simply sucks. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 14:25:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.cdrom.com (castles517.castles.com [208.214.165.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A649F37B5AF for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:25:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05768; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:27:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <200003112227.OAA05768@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Narvi Cc: Dennis , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Dennis' inability to fix the eepro driver In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:49:12 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:27:08 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > [snip - paying a dropout $100/h to fix drivers] > > > Another point is that Open Source is virtually synonomous with "Totally > > undocumented". The linux community, years into it, are still totally > > dependent on Alan Cox to fix drivers properly (mostly because the OS is > > completely undocumented and changes are made on a whim regularly). D. > > Becker continues to be the only one that can properly fix the ethernet > > drivers because they are such a mess and poorly documented. > > Why haven't you considered hiring somebody to document the parts you are > intersted in? Would solve at least half the problem... To be fair to Dennis, it's not the cost of paying the dropout to fix this driver that's at issue here. Documentation for the eepro parts is not easy to get; I only have one outdated hardcopy, and I get all sorts of weird stuff thrown at me. However, to the best of anyone's knowledge the driver isn't actually broken per se. There are a number of reported cases where it's unhappy in a given system setup, but it's actually characterising these cases that's the problem. What Dennis fails to point out here is that at least we're going to admit this in public. You won't get this concession from your average closed-shop vendor. 8) -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 14:32:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A81837BA9B for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 14:32:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA79350; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:32:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA27865; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:31:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200003112231.PAA27865@harmony.village.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Cc: Didier Derny , Sam Leffler , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:44:47 PST." <92406.952796687@zippy.cdrom.com> References: <92406.952796687@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:31:45 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : > bsdi is doing everything to slow down the development of freebsd... Hmmm. BSDi isn't paying my salary. Timing Solutions is. They tell me to do or not to do development on their nickle. I commit code I've completed. Where does BSDi enter into it at all? The answer is very simple: no where. And if they tried, I know that myself and most other developers would have a hissy-shit-fit right on the spot and they would lose. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 15: 2:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ab-bg.net (ab-bg.net [212.56.11.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F35837B9D0 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:02:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from v0rbiz@ab-bg.net) Received: (qmail 16918 invoked by uid 1000); 11 Mar 2000 23:04:02 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 11 Mar 2000 23:04:02 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 01:04:02 +0200 (EET) From: Victor Ivanov To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Midnight Commander and FreeBDS In-Reply-To: <005f01bf8b75$31b78b10$5a01a8c0@TK> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FreeBDS? Is that some Bulgarian Standart or what ;^) I think your question is not for this list.. But I want to say something for the keyboard which involves midc. I posted before a message with the same content.. but no response.. It is about two keyboard patches (kernel). The first sets the ALT key to be META on AT keyboards (turns on the METAS1 flag). The seconds adds new ioctl similar to KDGKBDSTATE, allowing users to get the shift keys state (with a little patch for the mcedit shift+arrows work fine). I prefer vim for editing but lots of people use mcedit (including my local users). So.. what is the problem adding these to the config file or something? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 15:20:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2E4037BB34 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:20:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23037; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:20:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38CAD4C3.A51B6FFB@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:20:35 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jegjr@erols.com Cc: Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? References: <38C93D6C.38B24702@softweyr.com> <00031109145000.25510@deinonychus.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Grimes wrote: > > On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > Didier Derny wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I've just read the announcement of the merge of BSDI and Walnut Creek > > > CDROM. (March 10 2000). > > > > > > I guess it's a sad day for FreeBSD. I can't imagine how a company selling > > > it's own BSD could at the same time let another BSD free. > > > > > > Has the FreeBSD project become the test-bed for BSDI ? or > > > the single user evaluation of BSDI... > > > > Apparently you didn't read all of the press release. The BSDI technology > > will be folded into FreeBSD, which will remain free and open. What this > > really means is that there will be several more people paid to work on > > FreeBSD full time, and to bring exciting new technologies to FreeBSD 5.0. > > There will also be a professional support organization that can offer > > support contracts for FreeBSD if you wish to purchase one. > > > > I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement. > > I don't entirely agree with the statement above. I would like to mention a > point to ponder. In the 13th paragraph of the announcement on the > FreeBSD.org website, I quote the following, "BSDI will continue to > distribute packaged versions of FreeBSD...." Is this another way of saying > that in the future that the distribution of FreeBSD may take on the Sun model > for their "free" operating system software, which you pay $$$ for the media, and > it is not freely downloadable from the net nor freely distributable? No, it means they will continue to sell CD-ROM packages, and perhaps DVD-ROM packages in the future. They will also continue to publish books and manuals, and perhaps even printed man page sets, as demand warrants. BSDI cannot prevent people from downloading FreeBSD over the net, they DON'T OWN FREEBSD! They will continue to provide FTP and HTTP servers for the free distribution and maintenance of FreeBSD, and if you really want to see it continue to succeed you will keep buying CD-ROM sets, buttons and stickers, and other goods that help promote FreeBSD and fund its ongoing development. None of this is changing, so please stop trying to invent a conspiracy where none exists. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 15:31:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA3137BB34 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:31:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23060; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:30:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38CAD729.F6BE22F2@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:30:49 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards Cc: Julian Elischer , John Grimes , Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ?(NO) References: <38CA83E3.BF8F39E3@originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Paul Richards wrote: > > I'd like to the see the core team being more prominent in promoting > FreeBSD to other commercial backers, rather than continuing to push WC > as the home of FreeBSD. The opportunity has always been there for another company to promote and profit from FreeBSD. Not a single one has shown any interested. Pacific Hi-Tech did for a short time, but then wandered off into obscurity. Rich Morin as much as admitted he missed the boat on FreeBSD and made Bob Bruce's business by doing so at FreeBSD Con last year. So, if you know of a disc vendor who wants to get into the FreeBSD business, tell them to go right ahead. I'm not holding my breath waiting for it. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 15:35:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bubbette.cs.rice.edu (bubbette.cs.rice.edu [128.42.3.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B56337BD8D for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:35:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ssiyer@bubbette.cs.rice.edu) Received: (from ssiyer@localhost) by bubbette.cs.rice.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01612 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:35:48 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ssiyer) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:35:48 -0600 From: Sitaram Iyer To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: ATA-disk question Message-ID: <20000311173548.A1570@cs.rice.edu> Reply-To: Sitaram Iyer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-url: http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/ Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG (kernel 4.0-20000208-CURRENT) I have a question about adstrategy() in ata-disk.c: it says bufqdisksort() -- which appends to the drive queue using CSCAN, and immediately, without a check for adp->active, there is ad_start() -- which removes it from there and puts it into the controller queue, thereby nullifying CSCAN's effect completely (drive queue length always = 0 or 1) and blowing up the controller TAILQ to occasional spurts with tens of requests (I measured this). on browsing through cvsweb, I find that such a check used to be there earlier ( bufqdisksort(&adp->queue, bp); if (!adp->active) ad_start(adp); ) till "1.14 Fri Jun 25 9:02:59 1999 UTC by sos" (the 9th ATA update), and the only thing in the commit log that's making sense to me is: "The disk driver has been changed a bit to prepare for tagged queing, which is next on my list." -- sos What's the exact rationale behind doing away with CSCAN? is it temporary? Its not entirely clear to me how "tagged queueing" (whatever that is) would remedy the fact that requests are taken away from drive queues as soon as they're put there. Hoping for enlightenment, -- Sitaram Iyer http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/ Phone (off) 713-348-2265 (rice xBANK) (home) 713-383-6279 (713-EVE-MARY), and if that *keeps ringing*, then 713-799-8980 (my other residential line) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 18:12:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.ct.home.com (ha1.rdc1.ct.home.com [24.2.0.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B40E37BA19 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:12:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tsikora@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.2.168.186]) by mail.rdc1.ct.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <20000312021239.ZFJZ24587.mail.rdc1.ct.home.com@home.com> for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:12:39 -0800 Message-ID: <38CAFCE2.A817072F@home.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:11:46 -0500 From: Ted Sikora Organization: Jtl Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.15pre13 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US,en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: FreeBSD CD Distribution Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Will WC continue to sell FreeBSD packaged sets or will BSDI or a new vendor take that over? -- Ted Sikora Jtl Development Group tsikora@powerusersbbs.com http://powerusersbbs.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 18:53:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nscache2.x-treme.gr (mail1.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C168637B581 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:53:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat5.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.197]) by nscache2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id EAA18770 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:53:31 +0200 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA02595 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:11:34 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:11:34 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Message-ID: <20000312041134.B1196@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <00031109145000.25510@deinonychus.erols.com> <93937.952797002@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <93937.952797002@zippy.cdrom.com>; from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com on Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 09:50:02AM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E X-Phone-Number: +30-94-6203692, +30-93-2886457 X-Address: Theodorou Kirinaiou 61, 26334 Patra, Greece Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 09:50:02AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > The FreeBSD genie is out of the bottle and has been for over 7 years > now. Any attempts to put it back in are doomed to failure and > everyone at BSDI knows this very well already. Do you folks honestly > think I haven't covered this in great detail in our pre-merger > discussions already? No, I suppose not. After all, this is the kind of thinking, among other things, that gets one into the core, I suppose. /me who obviously just loves answering rhetorical questions -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > For my public PGP key: finger keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr PGP fingerprint, phone and address in the headers of this message. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 20:59:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F48B37BC23 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:59:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA54518; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 05:59:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 05:59:16 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200003120459.FAA54518@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Getting CPU usage in FreeBSD X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-hackers In-Reply-To: <8advq0$a1h$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Felipe Paulo Guazzi Bergo wrote in list.freebsd-hackers: > I am the author of gPS (http://gps.seul.org) and I'm trying to finish the > FreeBSD native poller. All I need now is a routine to get the CPU usage. > [...] > I've already looked at the source of top but couldn't get much from there. I'd recommend that you look at the vmstat source, located at /usr/src/usr.bin/vmstat.c. In particular, look at the line kread(X_CPTIME, cur.cp_time, sizeof(cur.cp_time)); Then look up the definition of kread() in the same file, and how the contents of cur.cp_time are used in the cpustats() function. Note that "cur" is a "struct statinfo", which is defined in /usr/include/devstat.h. The CPU states are defined in /usr/include/sys/dkstat.h. That should get you going. :-) Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 21:45:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mission.mvnc.edu (mission.mvnc.edu [149.143.2.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E6A37BC23 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:45:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdrobnac@mission.mvnc.edu) Received: from localhost (kdrobnac@localhost) by mission.mvnc.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id AAA11741; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 00:43:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 00:43:19 -0500 (EST) From: Kenny Drobnack To: Chuck Robey Cc: Dennis , Wes Peters , Didier Derny , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > >I fail to see how you can read anything bad into this announcement. If > > >you're really concerned, you have just as much right to the code as any > > >one else, feel free to take the 4.0 code base and create your own system. > > >BSDidier has a nice ring to it. > > > > > >Personally, I've been running FreeBSD since 1.0, and I'll be sticking > > >with it for quite some time to come. > > > > Ever read Animal Farm? Remember that BSD/OS started out as "cheap with > > source" and grew into "just another OS company". Good ideas can turn bad > > very quickly. > > Instead of assuming that they are going to "go wrong", why not give them a > chance to do it right? Everything is in place for exactly the right > things to happen, I couldn't have planned it better myself, but some folks > aren't happy unless they see conspiracy. > > When you see something wrong, you can speak up, but stop complaining about > stuff that hasn't even happened yet. You could generate enough ill > feelings and bad publicity to *cause yourself* the exact thing you're > worried about. What's there to worry about anyway? If things go good, we have a better FreeBSD. If things go wrong, just branch off the source! ----- In computer terms, hardware is the stuff you can hit with a baseball bat, and software is the stuff you can only swear at. -from a web page explaining what hardware, software, and firmware are ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 23:37:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id D869437BDA2; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69112E8156 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:37:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:37:18 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Getting CPU usage in FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <200003120459.FAA54518@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Then look up the definition of kread() in the same file, and > how the contents of cur.cp_time are used in the cpustats() > function. Note that "cur" is a "struct statinfo", which is > defined in /usr/include/devstat.h. The CPU states are defined > in /usr/include/sys/dkstat.h. We probably should make this into a sysctl to divorce the binaries from having to read kvm. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 23:39:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br (kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br [143.106.51.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9859B37B817 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:39:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vazquez@iqm.unicamp.br) Received: by kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br (V-MTA, from userid 105) id 3B6D37268B; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:39:44 -0300 (EST) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 04:39:44 -0300 From: Pedro A M Vazquez To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Getting CPU usage in FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000312043943.A50685@kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br> References: <200003120459.FAA54518@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@hub.freebsd.org on Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 11:37:18PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG |o|... Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 11:37:18PM -0800, Kris Kennaway ...|o| wrote: > On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Oliver Fromme wrote: > > > Then look up the definition of kread() in the same file, and > > how the contents of cur.cp_time are used in the cpustats() > > function. Note that "cur" is a "struct statinfo", which is > > defined in /usr/include/devstat.h. The CPU states are defined > > in /usr/include/sys/dkstat.h. > > We probably should make this into a sysctl to divorce the binaries from > having to read kvm. it's already there: vm.loadavg: { 1.40 1.33 1.23 } pedro > > Kris > > ---- > In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. > -- Charles Forsythe > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- .sig: license expired, contact your vendor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 23:54:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D5937BB59 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:54:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA00547; Sun, 12 Mar 2000 02:54:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 02:54:06 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD dead ? In-Reply-To: <5726.952812634@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mar 11 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: Michael Bacarella said: > > Corporations care only for their interests. Their stockholders will be > > pissed if they act otherwise. Do you really think there's something wrong > > with people who are scrutinizing this move? > > No, I only feel there's something wrong with those who are both > scrutinizing it and jumping to a lot of premature conclusions about > it. I expect scrutiny. I don't expect chicken-little running around > and yelling about the sky falling. I think what the Prophets of Doom fail to realize is that this is actually two different mergers involving three separate and distinct entities, and that Walnut Creek and FreeBSD are not one in the same. Yes there is a relationship between the two, one that has been beneficial to both sides, but neither controlls the other. WC pays people to work on FreeBSD, that has never been a secret. But it has only been a very very small percentage of the committers and contributors who make up FreeBSD, certainly not enough to think that they have controlled the project. Countless other companies have also paid people to add features, drivers, or whatever else they needed to FreeBSD and contributed the results to the project. That has not given any of those companies control over FreeBSD. What WC has brought to the table has been, primarily, promotion and distribution. The corporate merger between WC and BSDi, one of the two mergers, should increase what's available in those areas. Plus, BSDi brings the commercial support that FreeBSD has lacked and has prevented its use in many corporate environments. What's the down side to this? The corporate merger will also bring more full time developers to FreeBSD, a Good Thing[tm] IMO. The number of paid developers will still remain a small percentage of the contributors. Many of the people who currently hold the keys to the commit bits are already on the corporate payroll. I see no reason to expect a change in their principles, commitment, or judgment just because their paychecks may be drawn on a different account. The second merger is the merging of the source trees. Control of the FreeBSD source remains with FreeBSD. What gets merged into FreeBSD's tree will be entirely under FreeBSD's control not the control of any corporation. Why would anyone expect anything but the best code from the two trees as the result? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Mar 11 23:56:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id B140E37BBD4; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:56:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1322E8156; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:56:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:56:30 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Pedro A M Vazquez Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Getting CPU usage in FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000312043943.A50685@kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Pedro A M Vazquez wrote: > > We probably should make this into a sysctl to divorce the binaries from > > having to read kvm. > > it's already there: > > vm.loadavg: { 1.40 1.33 1.23 } Thats the system load average. The question referred to CPU usage percentages. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message