From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 25 0:34:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED14237B491 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:34:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f1P8Ye733916; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:34:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Wes Peters" Cc: Subject: RE: Itty bitty boxes dislodge PCs? (No longer RMS) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:34:40 -0800 Message-ID: <001101c09f05$cb5d0de0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <3A982D79.3335694A@softweyr.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: wes [mailto:wes]On Behalf Of Wes Peters >Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 1:54 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Itty bitty boxes dislodge PCs? (No longer RMS) > > >Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> >> Your never going to see anything come along and dislodge C and >C++ from their >> positions, > >Funny, "they" said that about C over Pascal, and C++ over C. > Ahh - if you may remember Pascal was specifically _written_ to be a toy "teaching" language, not a development language. I had the misfortune to be force-fed a number of terms of Pascal while chasing a CS degree and I grew to heartily hate it's ugly syntax and requirements which basically forced you to write the program backards, because the human mind doesn't think like a single-pass compiler. I was doubly pissed because the year after I got done with all the 200-level courses, the college dumped Pascal and replaced it with C++. The misguided fools that actually _used_ Pascal for mainframe programming got what they deserved, IMHO. As far as C++ displacing C, we all knew that was a rediculous argument. C++ was developed as an adjunct language to C, not as a replacement. It solves different problems than C does. Both are just as popular today. >> just as your never going to see a special-purpose PC (like a >> webTV box or a Sony Playstation) dislodge the general purpose desktop PC. > >Dislodge the PC from what? Sales numbers that are a couple of orders of >magnitude SMALLER than the market for Playstations? Gee, thats a market >to go after. > The Intel-based variation of The IBM PC has been around for 20 years now, and shows no signs of disappearing. It's going to still be here long after all the Playstations are dislodging Pong games from their place in the bin at Goodwill. In terms of Total sales over the life of the product, what people have made from the sale of PC's simply dwarfs what they have made from the sale of Playstations. The Playstation may have had some significant impact on the computer games market, but it hasn't had the fundamental impact on our lives that the PC has had. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 25 1: 6:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612BE37B401 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f1P95x733969; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:05:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Laurence Berland" , "David Johnson" Cc: "Terry Lambert" , Subject: RE: Stallman stalls again Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:05:59 -0800 Message-ID: <002201c09f0a$2b5d5480$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <3A985559.6E0F6265@confusion.net> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think the premise of BSD is that it is the minimum that the law requires to prevent the University of California from being sued for providing faulty software. :-) Your going out on a limb when you read much more than that into the BSD license. The GNU License, unlike the BSD license, was written for a _political_ end. The BSD license was written for an _operations_ end, ie: purely because it's necessary to have a disclaimer to protect yourself from fools with foolish lawyers. GNU comes from a Jihad/Philosophical/Religious viewpoint, and it's primary purpose is to _have_an_effect_ on the thing that the license's author applies it to. BSD comes from a Minimalist/CYA/Practicality viewpoint, and it's primary purpose is to _prevent_ the thing that it's applied to from having an effect on the license's author. The assumption both licenses make is that the thing that they are being applied to, has the capability of taking on a life of it's own. The GPL attempts to influence what that life may be and use this influence to propagate it's viewpoint of how the software market should operate. By contrast, the BSD license doesen't attempt to influence what that life may be, as long as it isn't used against the creator. Much is made of the idea that BSD is in opposition to GPL, but I think this is false. A truly opposite license to GPL is what you would call a standard Commercial Software License. Commercial licenses block redistribution, and mandate that updates to the code to be kept private Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Laurence Berland >Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 4:44 PM >To: David Johnson >Cc: Terry Lambert; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again > > > > >David Johnson wrote: > >> Bingo! The premise of the GPL is that the user is prone to immorality >> and unreason. The premise of the BSDL is that the user is competent, >> rational and moral. And this attitude isn't lost on the user. Case in >> point: Steve Jobs only released the NeXT Objective C front end under the >> GPL because he was threatened by legal action, but he released Darwin >> under the APSL and donated lots back to FreeBSD >> _without_even_being_asked_to! >> > >To clarify, I think it's less that the BSDL assumes all users are >competent, rational, and moral, than it assumes that people taken as a >whole do, such that a small portion lacking in these traits can't manage >to do serious harm, and that it's worth the small setbacks they'll >create in order to realize the larger benefits that essentially >unlimited pooling of human thought vis a vis the collaborative process >will bring. GPL just ties people up in red tape, and doesn't give them >a choice. People always get angry when they don't have a choice, and >usually will choose the opposing view (this is perfectly rational, it >makes it easier to demonstrate that you don't agree with what's being >forced on you, and it makes a clear protest). Given the choice to do >whatever they want, most people (and hence society at large) will do the >right thing. > >> David >> >> >Laurence Berland >Intern, Flooz.com >Northwestern '04 >stuyman@confusion.net >http://www.isp.northwestern.edu/~laurence > >"The world has turned and left me here" > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 25 16:29:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218AF37B4EC; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:29:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D7838239AAC; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:29:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:29:33 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL Message-ID: <20010225162933.T656@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> <007101c09be9$04ff4f60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010221023316.A49953@mollari.cthul.hu> <3A982563.407C41F2@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A982563.407C41F2@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 02:19:31PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2001-02-24 14:19 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > This fits quite well in Terry's theory of "enlightened self-interest", that > drives companies to contribute their changes back to BSDL projects. Staying > close to the current releases makes it a lot easier to apply critical fixes > as they become available, just as contributing your own fixes (and additions) > to the system back allows others to maintain them for you. Well, it's not exactly Terry's theory. I first remember reading about the Principle of Enlightened Self-Interest in a Doc Smith novel, probably "Subspace Explorers". Followups to chat, please. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm mailto:gsutter@zer0.org for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ be warm for the rest of his life. hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Feb 26 11:13:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5621037B491 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:13:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA6E29; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:18:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3A9AAACF.8FBF2721@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:13:19 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: <002201c09f0a$2b5d5480$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > I think the premise of BSD is that it is the minimum that > the law requires to prevent the University of California > from being sued for providing faulty software. :-) But the original post was asking why people *use* the BSD license. This has nothing whatsoever to do with why it was created. Some people still use it as a CYA license. Others have a philosophical bent towards public domain, but still want to CYA. Some use it because it is more "Free" in the Stallman sense than the GPL. And a few people use it simply because Stallman prefers that they don't. But most people don't "choose" a license, they simply use what is expected of them. If they think that they're supposed to use the GPL then that is what they will use. This is why most Open Source developers use the GPL, because only GNU has any sort of license PR. If you look at the KDE developers you will find a great diversity of licenses because they were forced by the silly Qt controversy to actually think about the licenses they were using. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 4:19:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2868A37B718; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 04:19:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@daemonnews.org) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0CF93239A51; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 04:19:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 04:19:09 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Daemon News Ezine, March 2001 (not spam!) Message-ID: <20010301041908.A45600@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: daemonnews Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The March 2001 issue of the Daemon News Ezine brings you: - A sample chapter of the FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide - A review of that same book - An IP-less bridging firewall using OpenBSD and IPFilter - The Answerman's monthly mailbag - A look into the future of Daemon News ...and more! Daemon News is looking for articles, stories, reviews, white papers, and nearly anything else BSD-related for publication in our ezine and print magazine. If you're interested in being published, please email . Thanks! P.S.: We'll never spam you. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Madness takes its toll. mailto:gsutter@daemonnews.org Please have exact change. http://www.daemonnews.org/ hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 5:34: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55ED637B71C; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 05:34:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA80109; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:33:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Gregory Sutter Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Daemon News Ezine, March 2001 (not spam!) References: <20010301041908.A45600@klapaucius.zer0.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 01 Mar 2001 14:33:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: Gregory Sutter's message of "Thu, 1 Mar 2001 04:19:09 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gregory Sutter writes: > P.S.: We'll never spam you. Funny. BSDSearch claims to be sponsored by Daemon News. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 8:33:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE7A37B73B; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:33:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14YWC8-00009E-00; Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:44:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3A9E7C80.4668BA5A@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:44:48 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Daemon News Ezine, March 2001 (not spam!) References: <20010301041908.A45600@klapaucius.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Gregory Sutter writes: > > P.S.: We'll never spam you. > > Funny. BSDSearch claims to be sponsored by Daemon News. Ugh. No, they're not. Why would DN sponsor something to compete with search.daemonnews.org? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 8:45:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0334E37B719; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:45:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA80850; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:45:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Daemon News Ezine, March 2001 (not spam!) References: <20010301041908.A45600@klapaucius.zer0.org> <3A9E7C80.4668BA5A@softweyr.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 01 Mar 2001 17:45:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of "Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:44:48 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Gregory Sutter writes: > > > P.S.: We'll never spam you. > > Funny. BSDSearch claims to be sponsored by Daemon News. > Ugh. No, they're not. Why would DN sponsor something to compete with > search.daemonnews.org? Well, then, that's a cease-and-desist just waiting to happen, isn't it? Check it out yourself - http://www.bsdsearch.com/ lists Daemon News at the top of the "Sponsors" section of their front page. The ironic part is that the "Which BSD site is sending out spam?" Daily Daemon News article is listed on BSDSearch's "Latest Headlines" section :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 10: 0:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE53A37B71C for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:00:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA81124; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:00:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: David Johnson Cc: Trent Waddington , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: <3A92EF80.14F68EF2@acuson.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 01 Mar 2001 19:00:18 +0100 In-Reply-To: David Johnson's message of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:28:16 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Johnson writes: > [...] That was my Great Turning Point, the moment in time when I > realized that Richard Stallman is a complete and utter fraud. He is not > interested in Free Software, except when it aids his only real goal, The > GNU System. No. You still don't understand. His only real goal is the complete abolition of commercial enterprise in general, and commercial software in particular. He is probably the most vocal communist alive outside of Red China of North Korea. I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't for the hordes of people who follow him without understanding what it is they're embracing. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 10: 7:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BECD37B718 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:07:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA81157; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:07:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Dennis Jun" Cc: Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL References: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 01 Mar 2001 19:07:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Dennis Jun"'s message of "Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:32:53 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Dennis Jun" writes: > A Linux friend of mine and I were chatting bout the BSD licence versus the > GPL. He was asking me how *BSD developers felt about that their code could > (and has) being used by commercial companies and in turn becomes closed in > the end. That is, you don't know if your code will stay open or not. He > asked doesn't that bother BSD developers? [replying a little late] I don't care, as long as they don't try to pass it off as their own. And even if I used the GPL instead of the BSDL, there'd be nothing to stop people from using my code in proprietary software. I'd never find out (unless one of their employees blew the whistle). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 10:36: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ADE337B719 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:36:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA32076; Fri, 2 Mar 2001 04:35:53 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 04:35:53 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: David Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I say it is worse than that. He doesn't even know what he is embracing. On 1 Mar 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > No. You still don't understand. His only real goal is the complete > abolition of commercial enterprise in general, and commercial software > in particular. He is probably the most vocal communist alive outside > of Red China of North Korea. I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't for > the hordes of people who follow him without understanding what it is > they're embracing. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 10:59:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F077D37B719 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:59:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA81328; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:57:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Trent Waddington Cc: David Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 01 Mar 2001 19:57:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: Trent Waddington's message of "Fri, 2 Mar 2001 04:35:53 +1000 (GMT+1000)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Trent Waddington writes: > I say it is worse than that. He doesn't even know what he is embracing. I think he does. Judging from his prose and my email exchanges with him, he's the most deliberate person I know of - almost compulsively, pathologically so. I haven't yet found any topic about which he does not care enough to have an opinion. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 11:41:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B3337B73C; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:41:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f21JfK605413; Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:41:20 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200103011941.f21JfK605413@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:41:19 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Daemon News Ezine, March 2001 (not spam!) Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: Wes Peters's message of "Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:44:48 -0700" In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 1 Mar 2001, at 17:45, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > The ironic part is that the "Which BSD site is sending out spam?" > Daily Daemon News article is listed on BSDSearch's "Latest Headlines" > section :) I'll take the blame for that.... *grin* -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 11:41:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B7037B780; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:41:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f21JfK605410; Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:41:20 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200103011941.f21JfK605410@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:41:18 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: spam from BSDSearch.com (was Re: Daemon News Ezine, March 2001 (not spam!)) Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: Wes Peters's message of "Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:44:48 -0700" In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 1 Mar 2001, at 17:45, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Wes Peters writes: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > Gregory Sutter writes: > > > > P.S.: We'll never spam you. > > > Funny. BSDSearch claims to be sponsored by Daemon News. > > Ugh. No, they're not. Why would DN sponsor something to compete with > > search.daemonnews.org? > > Well, then, that's a cease-and-desist just waiting to happen, isn't > it? Check it out yourself - http://www.bsdsearch.com/ lists Daemon > News at the top of the "Sponsors" section of their front page. > > The ironic part is that the "Which BSD site is sending out spam?" > Daily Daemon News article is listed on BSDSearch's "Latest Headlines" > section :) For those wondering what the spammer is claiming, try these threads from the BSDSearch forums: http://bsdsearch.com/eao/phorum2/read.php?f=1&i=24&t=16 http://bsdsearch.com/eao/phorum2/read.php?f=1&i=26&t=16 Basically, they are admitting that a friend made a list of BSD emails. It appears they thought spamming people was OK, but didn't know their list contained mailing list addresses. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 21:19:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from anthony.dsl.xmission.com (anthony.dsl.xmission.com [166.70.15.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF8C37B71B for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:19:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@anthony.dsl.xmission.com) Received: (from anthony@localhost) by anthony.dsl.xmission.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05206 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:19:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from anthony) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:19:47 -0700 From: "Anthony C. Chavez" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: freebsdmall.com Message-ID: <20010301221947.B5115@xmission.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anyone know where it went? -- anthony@xmission.com http://anthonychavez.cjb.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ``The supply of problems in mathematics is inexhaustible, and as soon as one problem is solved numerous others come forth in its place.'' -- David Hilbert To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 21:30:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5144D37B71A for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:30:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f225UQ831442; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:30:26 -0800 Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:30:26 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: "Anthony C. Chavez" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsdmall.com Message-ID: <20010301213026.B30029@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20010301221947.B5115@xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010301221947.B5115@xmission.com>; from anthony@xmission.com on Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 10:19:47PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 10:19:47PM -0700, Anthony C. Chavez wrote: > Anyone know where it went? It's there now with a big note on the top: "Please Note: In order to serve you better BSDi will be moving servers on Mar.1st,2001. Please excuse any interruptions in service." -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6ny/xXY6L6fI4GtQRApmjAKCHWmlTxPY5r1ODIRPJeT3fM4R2KgCdGhuD DB/ivob9g4bg8ho8BgGXqYo= =7stE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 21:35:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from anthony.dsl.xmission.com (anthony.dsl.xmission.com [166.70.15.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA01737B718 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:35:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@anthony.dsl.xmission.com) Received: (from anthony@localhost) by anthony.dsl.xmission.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05239 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:35:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from anthony) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:35:12 -0700 From: "Anthony C. Chavez" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsdmall.com Message-ID: <20010301223512.C5115@xmission.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20010301221947.B5115@xmission.com> <20010301213026.B30029@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010301213026.B30029@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu>; from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net on Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 09:30:26PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 09:30:26PM -0800, Brooks Davis wrote: > On Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 10:19:47PM -0700, Anthony C. Chavez wrote: > > Anyone know where it went? > > It's there now with a big note on the top: *sigh* I really should learn to open my eyes wider. :-) -- anthony@xmission.com http://anthonychavez.cjb.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ``The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense.'' -- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 1 23:52: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1376B37B718; Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:51:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 1DA1DE; Fri, 2 Mar 2001 02:51:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F8949A13; Fri, 2 Mar 2001 02:51:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 02:51:58 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Coleman To: Dan Langille Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: spam from BSDSearch.com (was Re: Daemon News Ezine, March 2001 (not spam!)) In-Reply-To: <200103011941.f21JfK605410@ns1.unixathome.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > Funny. BSDSearch claims to be sponsored by Daemon News. > > > Ugh. No, they're not. Why would DN sponsor something to compete with > > > search.daemonnews.org? For the same reason we sponsor FreeBSDZine and FreeBSDDiary, although they directly compete with us. We also have had ads on O'Reillynet.com/bsd and bsdfreak.org All of these are ad or link exchanges, a show of support and community building. We try to support other BSD activities, even commercial ones like Wasabi and such. Occasionally, DN supporters will pull cash out of their own pockets and promote DN on different sites if it isn't too much. At DN, its the community that powers us. I won't speak for DN officially in this matter, but I think they would all agree that we seek to promote anyone adding value to the BSD community. For BSD to succeed we all need to pull together. We don't condone SPAM, but we realize everyone makes mistakes. I have personally made too many to count, and been flamed viciously for it, but I am committed to the BSD community and really want to see it grow. Garry has promised that this won't happen again and I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt this time. I don't think we should let this destroy part of our community. This is what almost drove TuCows down. It would appear that to be proactive in the BSD community, the lower regions of your anatomy need to be partially composed of asbestos. I have been at this a long time, and all of my projects have been criticized as being too ambitious. I met with a lot of failure in the beginning, but perseverence led to Daemon News and is currently showing progress on Open Packages. If the SPAM were to continue, our attitude would change. Lets be forgiving at this juncture. -Chris Coleman (Expressing his own opinions) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 2 2: 7:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C7237B718; Fri, 2 Mar 2001 02:07:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA84370; Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:07:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Chris Coleman Cc: Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: spam from BSDSearch.com (was Re: Daemon News Ezine, March 2001 (not spam!)) References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Mar 2001 11:07:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: Chris Coleman's message of "Fri, 2 Mar 2001 02:51:58 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Coleman writes: > > > Funny. BSDSearch claims to be sponsored by Daemon News. > > Ugh. No, they're not. Why would DN sponsor something to compete with > > search.daemonnews.org? > For the same reason we sponsor FreeBSDZine and FreeBSDDiary, although they > directly compete with us. Does this mean you *do* sponsor BSBSearch? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 2 8:47:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE0A37B718; Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:47:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id B9C5FE; Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:47:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B387849A13; Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:47:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:47:35 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Coleman To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: spam from BSDSearch.com (was Re: Daemon News Ezine, March 2001 (not spam!)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We haven't done anything official to support BSDSearch.com, but I think someone individually arranged for our banner to be up there. I try not to discourage when people take the initiave and promote us. Chris Coleman Daemon News http://www.daemonnews.org Bringing BSD together On 2 Mar 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Chris Coleman writes: > > > > Funny. BSDSearch claims to be sponsored by Daemon News. > > > Ugh. No, they're not. Why would DN sponsor something to compete with > > > search.daemonnews.org? > > For the same reason we sponsor FreeBSDZine and FreeBSDDiary, although they > > directly compete with us. > > Does this mean you *do* sponsor BSBSearch? > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 3 8:28:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DA737B71C; Sat, 3 Mar 2001 08:28:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14ZF4I-0000Kw-00; Sat, 03 Mar 2001 09:39:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3AA11E4E.A3356338@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 09:39:42 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nick Sayer Cc: Garance A Drosihn , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD on IBM's radar screen? References: <42534.983469460@verdi.nethelp.no> <3AA10ACA.7080104@quack.kfu.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nick Sayer wrote: > > I was particularly gratified that when the story got slashdotted, a lot > of support came from people who didn't run FreeBSD, but did feel our > pain - Linux folks are in this sense part of the same community used to > the same shoddy treatment by hardware vendors (if you're not running > Winblows, it's unsupported, so go away). They helped make the response > larger and noisier. They may be our banjo-playing cousins, but they ARE our cousins. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message