From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 9 11:39:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp013.mail.yahoo.com (smtp013.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A343D37B41B for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 11:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown (HELO warhawk) (202.1.200.118) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2001 19:39:40 -0000 From: "Haikal Saadh" To: Subject: XP logon - 3rd try Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 00:39:30 +0500 Message-ID: <000501c180e9$3d9c6700$76c801ca@warhawk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Okay, this is the third time I'm trying to post, my two previous posts seemed to have vanished into the ether. Here is a link to a Windows XP logon screen I made, featuring beastie. Comments welcome. http://www.deviantart.com/deviation.php?id=115722 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 9 13:46:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A2137B419 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 13:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from doc@localhost) by pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB9Lq2Q42853; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 22:52:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from doc@lublin.t1.pl) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 22:52:01 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak To: Haikal Saadh Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: XP logon - 3rd try Message-ID: <20011209225201.E42753@lublin.t1.pl> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak References: <000501c180e9$3d9c6700$76c801ca@warhawk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000501c180e9$3d9c6700$76c801ca@warhawk> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Haikal Saadh [Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 12:39:30AM +0500]: > Okay, this is the third time I'm trying to post, my two previous posts > seemed to have vanished into the ether. > > Here is a link to a Windows XP logon screen I made, featuring beastie. > Comments welcome. It's wonderful, man. Purely amazing. -- dotZ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 10 9:52:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from m20.unixathome.org (m20.unixathome.org [216.187.106.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005AD37B417 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (cr1046889-a.slnt1.on.wave.home.com [24.102.95.54]) by m20.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7C87A72 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:52:06 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:52:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Ottawa laptop needed for talk on 3 January Reply-To: dan@langille.org Message-ID: <3C14AFF5.7408.B1C558@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Folks: I've not had much luck getting my ancient laptop to supply a nice looking image for a presentation to a local Linux group. Can someone in Ottawa loan me a laptop for the evening? I can borrow a Windows laptop but I'd prefer a FreeBSD laptop. All it needs is a browser. It'd be perfect if it had OpenOffice, but I can export my presentation as HTML. Thanks. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 10 10:37:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtbaker.tfm.com (mtbaker.tfm.com [192.231.224.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3983837B417 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from db@localhost) by mtbaker.tfm.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id fBAIbmj27589; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:37:48 -0800 (PST) From: Diane Bruce Message-Id: <200112101837.fBAIbmj27589@mtbaker.tfm.com> Subject: Re: Ottawa laptop needed for talk on 3 January In-Reply-To: <3C14AFF5.7408.B1C558@localhost> "from Dan Langille at Dec 10, 2001 12:52:05 pm" To: dan@langille.org Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:37:48 -0800 (PST) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL78 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dan Langille says: > Folks: I've not had much luck getting my ancient laptop to supply a > nice looking image for a presentation to a local Linux group. Can > someone in Ottawa loan me a laptop for the evening? I can borrow a Would my titanium do? -- Diane Bruce, http://www.db.net/~db db@db.net --- I got bored with the last witty aphorism. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 10 10:49:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from m20.unixathome.org (m20.unixathome.org [216.187.106.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E4B537B417 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (cr1046889-a.slnt1.on.wave.home.com [24.102.95.54]) by m20.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 070657A86; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:49:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Diane Bruce Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:49:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Ottawa laptop needed for talk on 3 January Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3C14BD52.15350.E5ED47@localhost> In-reply-to: <200112101837.fBAIbmj27589@mtbaker.tfm.com> References: <3C14AFF5.7408.B1C558@localhost> "from Dan Langille at Dec 10, 2001 12:52:05 pm" X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 10 Dec 2001 at 10:37, Diane Bruce wrote: > Dan Langille says: > > Folks: I've not had much luck getting my ancient laptop to supply a > > nice looking image for a presentation to a local Linux group. Can > > someone in Ottawa loan me a laptop for the evening? I can borrow a > > Would my titanium do? I imagine so. And since you're coming anyways, that would be useful. I'm sure the image it provides (both on the display and pyschologically) would be helpful. I'll contact you off list to arrange details. Thanks. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 11 9:58:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74ECB37B419 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (fly.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.98]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id fBBHwFf55901 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:58:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3C164921.AE213546@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:57:53 -0700 From: Don Wilde Organization: Silver Lynx X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: trademark? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG What is the status of the FreeBSD trademark now that WRS has bailed? According to Ted M., it's still floating around in WRS' pocket. If money is the issue, we should collect enough to handle this before it goes awry. Now that WRS has officially divorced themselves from FreeBSD, I think it is _very_ important that we do so. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 11 10:21:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [64.0.106.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F46737B41B for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20013; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:21:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:21:26 -0500 (EST) From: To: Don Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: trademark? In-Reply-To: <3C164921.AE213546@Silver-Lynx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I second that. ============================================================================= -Chris Watson (816) 464-7780 | Sr. Unix Administrator Work: chris.watson@twa.com | Trans World Airlines, Kansas City, MO Home: scanner@jurai.net | http://www.twa.com ============================================================================= WINDOWS: All our IP belongs to us. GNU/LINUX: Touch our IP, and your IP belongs to us. BSD: Here's our IP, just use it. ============================================================================= irc.openprojects.net #FreeBSD -Join the revolution! ICQ: 20016186 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 11 10:34:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ancmail1.state.ak.us (ancmail1.state.ak.us [146.63.92.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EC5637B41B for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:34:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnr.state.ak.us ([127.0.0.1]) by ancmail1.state.ak.us (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GO6ZKU00.VXB; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:34:06 -0900 Message-ID: <3C1652EF.2B47FAAE@dnr.state.ak.us> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:39:43 -0900 From: Brian Raynes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: trademark? References: <3C164921.AE213546@Silver-Lynx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > > What is the status of the FreeBSD trademark now that WRS has bailed? > According to Ted M., it's still floating around in WRS' pocket. > > If money is the issue, we should collect enough to handle this before it > goes awry. Now that WRS has officially divorced themselves from FreeBSD, > I think it is _very_ important that we do so. Have that officially dumped Freebsd completely? The box set at the local CompUSA still has Wind River's logo for release 4.4. I'd like to see where they've announced the dumping of Freebsd completely. I remember that most of the developers were laid off. Otherwise, I would also second the idea that the trademark be preserved. Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 11 10:45:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A7437B405 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 5156814; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4433A49A15; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:45:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:45:07 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Coleman To: Brian Raynes Cc: Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: trademark? In-Reply-To: <3C1652EF.2B47FAAE@dnr.state.ak.us> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG WRS did the production of FreeBSD 4.4 however, just prior to that WRS laid off all the developers and has given over fulfillment of FreeBSDMall.com to Linuxcentral.com However, in a follow up to a PR, Murray indicated that WRS will be completely divesting itself of all FreeBSD related property. It will be transferred to an as yet unnamed company and WRS will be announcing it soon. With the rumors I have been hearing, we might want to wait to see where this lands before we go giving WRS more money. The hints I have heard indicate it will land in FreeBSD friendly territory. However, I truely have no real information and in the event that it lands in "unfriendly" hands would be willing to facilitate such a collection. Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org BSDMall http://www.bsdmall.com On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Brian Raynes wrote: > Don Wilde wrote: > > > > What is the status of the FreeBSD trademark now that WRS has bailed? > > According to Ted M., it's still floating around in WRS' pocket. > > > > If money is the issue, we should collect enough to handle this before it > > goes awry. Now that WRS has officially divorced themselves from FreeBSD, > > I think it is _very_ important that we do so. > > Have that officially dumped Freebsd completely? The box set at the > local CompUSA still has Wind River's logo for release 4.4. I'd like to > see where they've announced the dumping of Freebsd completely. I > remember that most of the developers were laid off. Otherwise, I would > also second the idea that the trademark be preserved. > > Brian > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 11 11:11:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E1937B417 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16DsJ3-0005Jj-00; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:11:09 -0800 Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:11:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: trademark? In-Reply-To: <3C1652EF.2B47FAAE@dnr.state.ak.us> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Brian Raynes wrote: > Have that officially dumped Freebsd completely? The box set at the > local CompUSA still has Wind River's logo for release 4.4. I'd like to > see where they've announced the dumping of Freebsd completely. I Have a look at my article at http://www.bsdtoday.com/2001/October/News572.html > remember that most of the developers were laid off. Otherwise, I would > also second the idea that the trademark be preserved. Also from the article: According to Wind River: "Wind River plans to ensure continuation of the altruistic, open stewardship of the FreeBSD trademark. We feel strongly that the FreeBSD project must be protected and encouraged and that a FreeBSD trademark in the wrong hands could be very detrimental. We continue to search for the best solution. No specific third-party has yet been determined, but transfer to a suitable third-party is the leading option being considered." Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 11 11:22:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE71337B417 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBBJMex32202; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:22:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <013501c18279$3421d250$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brian Raynes" , "Don Wilde" Cc: References: <3C164921.AE213546@Silver-Lynx.com> <3C1652EF.2B47FAAE@dnr.state.ak.us> Subject: Re: trademark? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:22:41 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Note that trademarks, unlike patents or copyrights, can pass into the public domain if their owners fail to defend them with due diligence. So if you have a registered trademark, but you ignore all unauthorized uses of the trademark long enough, it may pass into the public domain, i.e., when and if you finally do try to sue to protect it, it may be held by the court that you did not attempt to protect it well enough, and so you've relinquished control of it. This has pretty much happened to trademarks like Xerox and Aspirin, although I don't know what specific court decisions have been, if any. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Raynes" To: "Don Wilde" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 19:39 Subject: Re: trademark? > Don Wilde wrote: > > > > What is the status of the FreeBSD trademark now that WRS has bailed? > > According to Ted M., it's still floating around in WRS' pocket. > > > > If money is the issue, we should collect enough to handle this before it > > goes awry. Now that WRS has officially divorced themselves from FreeBSD, > > I think it is _very_ important that we do so. > > Have that officially dumped Freebsd completely? The box set at the > local CompUSA still has Wind River's logo for release 4.4. I'd like to > see where they've announced the dumping of Freebsd completely. I > remember that most of the developers were laid off. Otherwise, I would > also second the idea that the trademark be preserved. > > Brian > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 11 11:28:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D734D37B427 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBBJQpx32221; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:26:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <013c01c18279$c9cd8e70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , References: Subject: Re: trademark? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:26:51 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is anyone talking to lawyers about this? Trademarks are not like copyrights or patents. In order to claim that a symbol is a trademark, you must show that you've actively used it in connection with some sort of trade or business. You must also defend it against inappropriate use. If you fail to do either of these, you lose the trademark; you cannot just put it in a box and seal it away. Registering the trademark helps, but you may still lose it if you are not duly diligent in protecting it, and just to register it, you have to first show that it is a legitimate trademark (i.e., you must show that you are actually using and protecting it, at least in the U.S.). From what I'm seeing here, it sounds like the FreeBSD trademark, if any, has only a very tenuous existence. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 20:11 Subject: Re: trademark? > On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Brian Raynes wrote: > > > Have that officially dumped Freebsd completely? The box set at the > > local CompUSA still has Wind River's logo for release 4.4. I'd like to > > see where they've announced the dumping of Freebsd completely. I > > Have a look at my article at > http://www.bsdtoday.com/2001/October/News572.html > > > remember that most of the developers were laid off. Otherwise, I would > > also second the idea that the trademark be preserved. > > Also from the article: > > According to Wind River: "Wind River plans to ensure continuation of the > altruistic, open stewardship of the FreeBSD trademark. We feel strongly > that the FreeBSD project must be protected and encouraged and that a > FreeBSD trademark in the wrong hands could be very detrimental. We > continue to search for the best solution. No specific third-party has yet > been determined, but transfer to a suitable third-party is the leading > option being considered." > > Jeremy C. Reed > http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 11 12:52:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93B337B416 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (fly.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.98]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id fBBKqPf81083 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:52:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3C1671FB.5C2713DB@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:52:11 -0700 From: Don Wilde Organization: Silver Lynx X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: trademark? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Coleman wrote: > > WRS did the production of FreeBSD 4.4 however, just prior to that > WRS laid off all the developers and has given over fulfillment of > FreeBSDMall.com to Linuxcentral.com > > However, in a follow up to a PR, Murray indicated that WRS will be > completely divesting itself of all FreeBSD related property. It will be > transferred to an as yet unnamed company and WRS will be announcing it > soon. > > With the rumors I have been hearing, we might want to wait to see where > this lands before we go giving WRS more money. The hints I have heard > indicate it will land in FreeBSD friendly territory. However, I truely > have no real information and in the event that it lands in > "unfriendly" hands would be willing to facilitate such a collection. > I seriously think that it's about time we bulletproof FreeBSD by extricating ourselves from any corporate sponsorship on this intimate a level. It will be great to have another company step up to the plate, but I think Jonathan Bresler's FBSD Foundation looks like a better place to put the center of the project than _any_ for-profit corp. In our advocacy discussions a few years ago, I remember the talk that a 501c3 was necessary to promote donations. Well, it's here and the need is definitely now. With Jordan's move to Apple and the divestiture of developer employees by WRS, we need a well defined "center" to build from. Another company wouldn't solve the innate problems of corporate sponsorship. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 13 7:13:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com (smtp015.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AF57537B41F for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown (HELO warhawk) (202.1.200.204) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 2001 15:13:34 -0000 From: "Haikal Saadh" To: Subject: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:13:14 +0500 Message-ID: <003c01c183e8$baab14b0$ccc801ca@warhawk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/23348.html] confirms what we've known all along *g* _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 13 8:17:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from starburst.demon.co.uk (starburst.demon.co.uk [194.222.114.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C37A37B41C for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:17:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from richard@localhost) by starburst.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA19131; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:44:48 GMT From: Richard Wendland Message-Id: <200112131544.PAA19131@starburst.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:44:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: paul@freebsd-services.com In-Reply-To: <135510000.1007492189_lobster.originative.co.uk@ns.sol.net> from "paul@freebsd-services.com" at Dec 04, 2001 07:07:43 PM Reply-To: richard@codeburst.co.uk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The Netcraft web server survey provides useful, real world information on > this subject. Yes, research on OS share for the public web servers is available at: http://www.netcraft.com/survey/index-200109.html#computers This shows *BSD at ~6% of computers running public webservers, a little behind Solaris (~7%), and well behind Linux (~30%) and Windows (~50%). It does place *BSD ahead of the sum of commercial Unix other than Solaris, so this is a significant share. But note the limitations of this research, primarily: - only counts public web servers found by Netcraft, eg excludes Intranet - only counts one computer per load balanced website - methodology error margin of +- 10% Also note that this survey is counting boxes regardless of value. Sun could reasonably point out that this research counts a cheap PC box serving a minor website the same as a $1M E10K system serving multiple busy websites. So this research does not reflect monetary investment. -- Richard Wendland richard@netcraft.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 13 9: 3:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cornflake.nickelkid.com (cornflake.nickelkid.com [216.116.135.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2789937B41A for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:02:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by cornflake.nickelkid.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26990; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:01:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jooji@cornflake.nickelkid.com) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:01:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: trademark? In-Reply-To: <013501c18279$3421d250$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Note that trademarks, unlike patents or copyrights, can pass into the public > domain if their owners fail to defend them with due diligence. So if you > have a registered trademark, but you ignore all unauthorized uses of the > trademark long enough, it may pass into the public domain, i.e., when and if > you finally do try to sue to protect it, it may be held by the court that > you did not attempt to protect it well enough, and so you've relinquished > control of it. > > This has pretty much happened to trademarks like Xerox and Aspirin, although > I don't know what specific court decisions have been, if any. Your explanation is correct, but these are bad examples. Xerox still vigorously defends its Xerox trademark, and although most people think Bayer (a German company) lost its trademark for Aspirin because they failed to protect against its use as a generic term, they were actually stripped of their trademark protection by the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. They only lost it in the U.S., the U.K., France, and Russia, though, and they still use Aspirin as a trademark in other countries like Canada and Australia today. As an amusing side note, the Treaty also stripped Bayer of its trademark for Heroin, as well. Cheers, Mick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 13 10:27:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from starburst.demon.co.uk (starburst.demon.co.uk [194.222.114.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAE637B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from richard@localhost) by starburst.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19434; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:51:09 GMT From: Richard Wendland Message-Id: <200112131651.QAA19434@starburst.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:51:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: paul@freebsd-services.com Reply-To: richard@codeburst.co.uk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The Netcraft web server survey provides useful, real world information on > this subject. Yes, research on OS share for the public web servers is available at: http://www.netcraft.com/survey/index-200109.html#computers This shows *BSD at ~6% of computers running public webservers, a little behind Solaris (~7%), and well behind Linux (~30%) and Windows (~50%). It does place *BSD ahead of the sum of commercial Unix other than Solaris, so this is a significant share. But note the limitations of this research, primarily: - only counts public web servers found by Netcraft, eg excludes Intranet - only counts one computer per load balanced website - methodology error margin of +- 10% Also note that this survey counts systems regardless of value. Sun could reasonably point out that this research counts a cheap PC box serving a minor website the same as a $1M E10K system serving multiple busy websites. So this research does not directly reflect monetary investment. -- Richard Wendland richard@netcraft.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 13 16:47:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3FD37B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:47:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBE0lWR00990; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:47:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00de01c18438$ea374410$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Haikal Saadh" , References: <003c01c183e8$baab14b0$ccc801ca@warhawk> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:47:32 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It doesn't provide any numbers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Haikal Saadh" To: Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 16:13 Subject: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! > [http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/23348.html] confirms what we've > known all along *g* > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 13 16:48:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from femme.sapphite.org (cc2219923-b.erlght1.md.home.com [65.9.33.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F398737B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from femme.sapphite.org (trish@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by femme.sapphite.org (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fBE0lsrn080560; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:47:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (trish@localhost) by femme.sapphite.org (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) with ESMTP id fBE0ls19080557; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:47:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: femme.sapphite.org: trish owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:47:54 -0500 (EST) From: Trish Lynch X-X-Sender: To: Haikal Saadh Cc: Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! In-Reply-To: <003c01c183e8$baab14b0$ccc801ca@warhawk> Message-ID: <20011213194732.H698-100000@femme.sapphite.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Haikal Saadh wrote: > [http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/23348.html] confirms what we've > known all along *g* > > How do you know Solaris isn;t the UNIX they were talking about? -- Trish Lynch trish@bsdunix.net FreeBSD The Power to Serve Ecartis Core Team trish@listmistress.org http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 13 17:17:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704C537B419 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 9A2653; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:17:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D2849A15; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:17:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:17:52 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Coleman To: Trish Lynch Cc: Haikal Saadh , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! In-Reply-To: <20011213194732.H698-100000@femme.sapphite.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > How do you know Solaris isn;t the UNIX they were talking about? Um, the article specifically mentions FreeBSD at least twice. :-) I do believe they had Solaris, so I am not disputing that. -Chris > > -- > Trish Lynch trish@bsdunix.net > FreeBSD The Power to Serve > Ecartis Core Team trish@listmistress.org > http://www.freebsd.org > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 13 17:19:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from femme.sapphite.org (cc2219923-b.erlght1.md.home.com [65.9.33.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7638237B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:19:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from femme.sapphite.org (trish@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by femme.sapphite.org (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fBE1JHrn080859; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:19:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (trish@localhost) by femme.sapphite.org (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) with ESMTP id fBE1JH3d080856; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:19:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: femme.sapphite.org: trish owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:19:17 -0500 (EST) From: Trish Lynch X-X-Sender: To: Chris Coleman Cc: Trish Lynch , Haikal Saadh , Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011213201844.F698-100000@femme.sapphite.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Chris Coleman wrote: > > > > How do you know Solaris isn;t the UNIX they were talking about? > > Um, the article specifically mentions FreeBSD at least twice. :-) I do > believe they had Solaris, so I am not disputing that. > I meant Microsoft, I know plenty of people at Hotmail, and last I heard, Solaris was on the back end, and Win2k on the front. -- Trish Lynch trish@bsdunix.net FreeBSD The Power to Serve Ecartis Core Team trish@listmistress.org http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 13 17:43: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E927C37B419 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:43:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBE1gfR01164; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 02:42:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <011001c18440$9ec99930$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Trish Lynch" , "Chris Coleman" Cc: "Trish Lynch" , "Haikal Saadh" , References: <20011213201844.F698-100000@femme.sapphite.org> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 02:42:41 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As far as I know, Microsoft itself hasn't used any UNIX systems for production in ages. There are UNIX systems in test labs, but that's about it. Prior to the move to Microsoft Exchange Server, the internal e-mail system of the company used MTAs that ran on Xenix, however. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trish Lynch" To: "Chris Coleman" Cc: "Trish Lynch" ; "Haikal Saadh" ; Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 02:19 Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Chris Coleman wrote: > > > > > > > How do you know Solaris isn;t the UNIX they were talking about? > > > > Um, the article specifically mentions FreeBSD at least twice. :-) I do > > believe they had Solaris, so I am not disputing that. > > > > I meant Microsoft, I know plenty of people at Hotmail, and last I heard, > Solaris was on the back end, and Win2k on the front. > > > > -- > Trish Lynch trish@bsdunix.net > FreeBSD The Power to Serve > Ecartis Core Team trish@listmistress.org > http://www.freebsd.org > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 13 17:59:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CC72237B419 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10936 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2001 01:59:24 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cptnhosedonkey) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 14 Dec 2001 01:59:24 -0000 Message-ID: <001001c18443$07fc1200$0a00a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Trish Lynch" , "Chris Coleman" Cc: "Trish Lynch" , "Haikal Saadh" , References: <20011213201844.F698-100000@femme.sapphite.org> <011001c18440$9ec99930$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:59:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > As far as I know, Microsoft itself hasn't used any UNIX systems for > production in ages. There are UNIX systems in test labs, but that's about > it. Prior to the move to Microsoft Exchange Server, the internal e-mail > system of the company used MTAs that ran on Xenix, however. Did you read the article ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 13 22:55:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtbaker.tfm.com (mtbaker.tfm.com [192.231.224.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E8837B420 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from db@localhost) by mtbaker.tfm.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id fBE6sN519192; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:54:23 -0800 (PST) From: Diane Bruce Message-Id: <200112140654.fBE6sN519192@mtbaker.tfm.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! In-Reply-To: <011001c18440$9ec99930$0a00000a@atkielski.com> "from Anthony Atkielski at Dec 14, 2001 02:42:41 am" To: Anthony Atkielski Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:54:23 -0800 (PST) Cc: Trish Lynch , Chris Coleman , Haikal Saadh , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL78 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski says: [ Charset Windows-1252 unsupported, skipping... ] ^^^^ This message rejected as being non-standard. Please re-send using standard character set. Thank you. -- Diane Bruce, http://www.db.net/~db db@db.net --- I got bored with the last witty aphorism. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 13 23:32:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C50D37B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBE7WBR02431; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:32:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <013d01c18471$722da750$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Trish Lynch" , "Chris Coleman" Cc: "Trish Lynch" , "Haikal Saadh" , References: <20011213201844.F698-100000@femme.sapphite.org> <011001c18440$9ec99930$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001001c18443$07fc1200$0a00a8c0@cptnhosedonkey> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:32:11 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremiah writes: > Did you read the article ? Yes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 14 1:44:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB63037B417; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBE9iCR02719; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:44:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <017f01c18483$e3d5daf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" , Subject: Very positive press in ZDNet Australia for FreeBSD Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:44:13 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG An article strongly favoring the various free flavors of BSD over Linux, especially FreeBSD: http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/os/story/0,2000024997,20262355,00.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 14 4:28:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from primus.vsservices.com (primus.vsservices.com [63.66.136.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14D2D37B405 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 04:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from prime.vsservices.com (conr-adsl-dhcp-26-38.txucom.net [209.34.26.38]) by primus.vsservices.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBE2KxC61529 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:20:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gclarkii@vsservices.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: GB Clark II To: Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:21:01 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <20011213201844.F698-100000@femme.sapphite.org> <011001c18440$9ec99930$0a00000a@atkielski.com> In-Reply-To: <011001c18440$9ec99930$0a00000a@atkielski.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01121320210103.27037@prime.vsservices.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday 13 December 2001 19:42, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > As far as I know, Microsoft itself hasn't used any UNIX systems for > production in ages. There are UNIX systems in test labs, but that's about > it. Prior to the move to Microsoft Exchange Server, the internal e-mail > system of the company used MTAs that ran on Xenix, however. BTW, Xenix is Unix, they just had to call it something else at the time. (Like most of the other -ix's out there... GB > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Trish Lynch" > To: "Chris Coleman" > Cc: "Trish Lynch" ; "Haikal Saadh" > ; > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 02:19 > Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! > > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Chris Coleman wrote: > > > > How do you know Solaris isn;t the UNIX they were talking about? > > > > > > Um, the article specifically mentions FreeBSD at least twice. :-) I do > > > believe they had Solaris, so I am not disputing that. > > > > I meant Microsoft, I know plenty of people at Hotmail, and last I heard, > > Solaris was on the back end, and Win2k on the front. > > > > > > > > -- > > Trish Lynch trish@bsdunix.net > > FreeBSD The Power to Serve > > Ecartis Core Team trish@listmistress.org > > http://www.freebsd.org > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- GB Clark II | Roaming FreeBSD Admin gclarkii@VSServices.COM | General Geek CTHULU for President - Why choose the lesser of two evils? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 15 3: 9: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from arctic.icelab.net (arctic.icelab.net [198.49.247.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6547437B416 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 03:09:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (valence@localhost) by arctic.icelab.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fBFBCWn40776; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 04:12:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from valence@symboliq.org) X-Authentication-Warning: arctic.icelab.net: valence owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 04:12:32 -0700 (MST) From: Valence Logrus X-X-Sender: To: Trish Lynch Cc: Chris Coleman , Haikal Saadh , Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! In-Reply-To: <20011213201844.F698-100000@femme.sapphite.org> Message-ID: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> X-Files: The Truth is Out There K2Y: Is It 1970 Yet? X-Rated: Oh Yeah Baby X-Men: Wolverine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hotmail definately uses Solaris on the back end, they just renewed $5.5Million+ worth of support contracts with us (Sun). Those bastards call in with the most rediculous crap all the time... -Real Geeks Like Their Women Rack Mounted On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Trish Lynch wrote: =AD=AD=BB On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Chris Coleman wrote: =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB > > =AD=AD=BB > > How do you know Solaris isn;t the UNIX they were talking abou= t? =AD=AD=BB > =AD=AD=BB > Um, the article specifically mentions FreeBSD at least twice. := -) I do =AD=AD=BB > believe they had Solaris, so I am not disputing that. =AD=AD=BB > =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB I meant Microsoft, I know plenty of people at Hotmail, and last I= heard, =AD=AD=BB Solaris was on the back end, and Win2k on the front. =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB -- =AD=AD=BB Trish Lynch=09=09=09=09=09trish@bsdunix.net =AD=AD=BB FreeBSD=09=09=09=09=09=09The Power to Serve =AD=AD=BB Ecartis Core Team=09=09=09=09trish@listmistress.org =AD=AD=BB http://www.freebsd.org =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org =AD=AD=BB with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message =AD=AD=BB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 15 5:54:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp013.mail.yahoo.com (smtp013.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 77EEF37B419 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 05:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown (HELO warhawk) (202.1.200.144) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Dec 2001 13:54:19 -0000 From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "'Valence Logrus'" , "'Trish Lynch'" Cc: "'Chris Coleman'" , Subject: RE: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 18:54:09 +0500 Message-ID: <003401c1856f$fd1c9f20$90c801ca@warhawk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 In-Reply-To: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Do tell :) Or are you sworn to secrecy? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG=20 > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG] On Behalf Of=20 > Valence Logrus > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 4:13 PM > To: Trish Lynch > Cc: Chris Coleman; Haikal Saadh; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! >=20 >=20 > Hotmail definately uses Solaris on the back end, they just=20 > renewed $5.5Million+ worth of support contracts with us=20 > (Sun). Those bastards call in with the most rediculous crap=20 > all the time... >=20 >=20 > -Real Geeks Like Their Women Rack Mounted >=20 > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Trish Lynch wrote: >=20 > =AD=AD=BB On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Chris Coleman wrote: > =AD=AD=BB > =AD=AD=BB > > > =AD=AD=BB > > How do you know Solaris isn;t the UNIX they were=20 > talking about? =AD=AD=BB > =AD=AD=BB > Um, the article specifically=20 > mentions FreeBSD at least twice. :-) I do =AD=AD=BB > believe they=20 > had Solaris, so I am not disputing that. =AD=AD=BB > =AD=AD=BB = =AD=AD=BB I=20 > meant Microsoft, I know plenty of people at Hotmail, and last=20 > I heard, =AD=AD=BB Solaris was on the back end, and Win2k on the=20 > front. =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB =AD=AD=BB -- > =AD=AD=BB Trish Lynch =09 > trish@bsdunix.net > =AD=AD=BB FreeBSD The=20 > Power to Serve > =AD=AD=BB Ecartis Core Team trish@listmistress.org > =AD=AD=BB http://www.freebsd.org > =AD=AD=BB > =AD=AD=BB > =AD=AD=BB > =AD=AD=BB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > =AD=AD=BB with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the = message =AD=AD=BB >=20 >=20 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >=20 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 15 6:31:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984A337B419 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 06:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBFEVOR09685; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:31:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <030701c18575$2ca87570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Valence Logrus" Cc: References: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:31:23 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG That would correlate with what I read as well. Apparently Hotmail has used Solaris for a long time, but with a highly customized MTA for their mail system. I doubt that any off-the-shelf mail system can handle 60 million accounts with no scaling issues, and Microsoft Exchange Server certainly could not (MS tried and failed to replace the custom system with MXS), even though MXS is a fine e-mail system in itself. The continuing use of Solaris probably does not represent superiority of Solaris or UNIX so much as it shows that a customized solution is needed, and customizing Microsoft Exchange Server is not an option, even for MS, as it is too complicated to modify for just one use. Of course, with open-source software that is much simpler in design, it's far easier to modify it to do whatever you want. By now, Hotmail's e-mail software has probably evolved (or mutated!) quite a bit from whatever base was first used to develop it. And the choice of Solaris as a UNIX flavor probably just reflects the state of the market at the time Hotmail first started its development. By now they probably have a lot of dependencies on Solaris idiosyncrasy in their custom code, so they are locked in. I suspect that if Hotmail did want to migrate off Solaris, FreeBSD would be a very obvious choice for an open-source replacement, and it would be far easier than trying to migrate to Windows. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Valence Logrus" To: "Trish Lynch" Cc: "Chris Coleman" ; "Haikal Saadh" ; Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 12:12 Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! > Hotmail definately uses Solaris on the back end, they just renewed > $5.5Million+ worth of support contracts with us (Sun). Those bastards call > in with the most rediculous crap all the time... > > > -Real Geeks Like Their Women Rack Mounted > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Trish Lynch wrote: > > ­­» On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Chris Coleman wrote: > ­­» > ­­» > > > ­­» > > How do you know Solaris isn;t the UNIX they were talking about? > ­­» > > ­­» > Um, the article specifically mentions FreeBSD at least twice. :-) I do > ­­» > believe they had Solaris, so I am not disputing that. > ­­» > > ­­» > ­­» I meant Microsoft, I know plenty of people at Hotmail, and last I heard, > ­­» Solaris was on the back end, and Win2k on the front. > ­­» > ­­» > ­­» > ­­» -- > ­­» Trish Lynch trish@bsdunix.net > ­­» FreeBSD The Power to Serve > ­­» Ecartis Core Team trish@listmistress.org > ­­» http://www.freebsd.org > ­­» > ­­» > ­­» > ­­» To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > ­­» with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > ­­» > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 15 8:28:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130FC37B405 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 08:28:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0048.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.48] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FHfv-0002g8-00; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 08:28:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1B7A33.D05FA85A@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 08:28:35 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Valence Logrus , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> <030701c18575$2ca87570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > That would correlate with what I read as well. Apparently Hotmail has used > Solaris for a long time, but with a highly customized MTA for their mail > system. I doubt that any off-the-shelf mail system can handle 60 million > accounts with no scaling issues, and Microsoft Exchange Server certainly > could not (MS tried and failed to replace the custom system with MXS), even > though MXS is a fine e-mail system in itself. For the sake of argument, let's say HotMail does have 60 million subscribers. And let's say further that they each receive 5 emails per day. That's 300 million emails. You could handle that load with 120 1GHz FreeBSD boxes running fairly stock Sendmail (you would need two common patches), which translates to about three racks of 1U boxes, for just the incoming mail load. Add another 40 machines for hot spare and bursty traffic (4 racks), and you are covered with an incredibly small amount of colocation real-estate. Say you multiply this by 5 (20 racks total) for the outbound mail servers, the SSL based authentication phase (required for Passport(tm) integration), and the other integrated services. Of course, HotMail cheats; one of their cheats is to write incoming mail to a RAM disk /tmp directory, and then ack it with the "250 OK", as if it had been committed to stable storage (the need for 120 sendmail machines is predicated on committing the messages to stable storage before ack'ing them as if they had been committed to stable storage). Running custom designed MTA software would drop the number of machines required significantly. For example, you aren't relaying any inbound email: everything is local delivery. Similarly, the outbound email is all relayed to remote mail servers; the web interface could even contact the remote server directly, should a given email be for one or more recipients constrained to a single target site. You'd still want a lot of machines to front end the web interfaces, particularly since the CGI's have become incredibly complicated for no good user interface or business reasons (unless you count forcing the use of custom controls "a good business reason"). FWIW: The FreeBSD servers are pretty much limited to DNS and other infrastructure pieces, rather than customer facing code. > The continuing use of Solaris probably does not represent superiority of > Solaris or UNIX so much as it shows that a customized solution is needed, Doubtful. The main issue is integration and accounting, which is often neglected in email services. I suspect that account aging policy controls (10 days after first login a signin is required to avoid account inactivation; less thant 30 days between subsequent signins is required to avoid inactivation, and 90 days to avoid deletion), and passport integration are the big issues; it's probably also why some of the .NET infrastructure was ported to FreeBSD. > and customizing Microsoft Exchange Server is not an option, even for MS, as > it is too complicated to modify for just one use. Actually, Exchange would be fairly easy to fix to handle that type of load, though you would need some cooperation from the NT/2000/XP developement team to optimize a couple of rough corners that are obvious bottlenecks to scalability on that order. > Of course, with > open-source software that is much simpler in design, it's far easier to > modify it to do whatever you want. By now, Hotmail's e-mail software has > probably evolved (or mutated!) quite a bit from whatever base was first used > to develop it. Surprising as this is... Microsoft has Microsoft source code. I rather expect that the main reason they have not done more to get away from FreeBSD/Solaris is a resource/reward issue. The primary value of Hotmail to Microsoft, at this point, I think, is as a portal entry into the Passport/.NET single sign on system: it lets them immediately claim 60,000,000 subscribers for it, and it hooks the credentials automatically, so even if you are not intending to be a Passport user, you are a Passport user. They are probably incredibly short handed, at this point, since merely staying in "maintenance mode" wins them through to their apparent goal, and it's no longer a valid advertising revenue play, now that the value of "clickthrough" has depreciated since the middle of last year. > I suspect that if Hotmail did want to migrate off Solaris, FreeBSD would be > a very obvious choice for an open-source replacement, and it would be far > easier than trying to migrate to Windows. If I could do the migration to Windows, then they could do the migration to Windows... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 15 22:11:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F1F37B405 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBG6BWR11533; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 07:11:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <002c01c185f8$82bef1e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Valence Logrus" , References: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> <030701c18575$2ca87570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1B7A33.D05FA85A@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 07:11:32 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry writes: > For the sake of argument, let's say HotMail does > have 60 million subscribers. So they claim, IIRC. > Running custom designed MTA software would drop > the number of machines required significantly. > For example, you aren't relaying any inbound > email: everything is local delivery. How do you ensure that everything is local delivery if you have multiple machines? With 120 machines and load balancing that can accept a message to anyone on any machine, less than 1% of incoming messages will arrive on a machine that is also the destination server of the messages. So 99% of messages will have to be rerouted to a different machine. And what about users retrieving mail? How do you make sure that each user goes to the correct server? Either the client must know which server to access, or all traffic must be funneled through the same server, although you could load balance over those servers. > ... the web interface could even contact the > remote server directly, should a given email be > for one or more recipients constrained to a single > target site. How do you handle relaying restrictions? If the web machine contacts another system directly, unless it has at least an MX record pointing to itself--which it cannot have, since it cannot handle incoming mail. Unless I'm overlooking something in relaying checks. > You'd still want a lot of machines to front end > the web interfaces, particularly since the CGI's > have become incredibly complicated for no good > user interface or business reasons (unless you > count forcing the use of custom controls "a good > business reason"). The CGIs are complicated because Microsoft is a software company that bloats almost everything it produces with lots of additional code. I've complained to them about this before, pointing out that not every single page on every single Microsoft site needs to be an ASP, but my complaints fall upon deaf ears. There are lots of people at MS who like to code, and so they write code whether it is needed or logical or not. > FWIW: The FreeBSD servers are pretty much > limited to DNS and other infrastructure pieces, > rather than customer facing code. How did you determine this? I've never heard FreeBSD being discussed, although it would not surprise me if it were used for such functions. > Actually, Exchange would be fairly easy to fix > to handle that type of load, though you would need > some cooperation from the NT/2000/XP developement > team to optimize a couple of rough corners that are > obvious bottlenecks to scalability on that order. Last time I heard (about two years ago), Exchange had been scaled to perhaps 10 million users in lab experiments, but that is still six times less than required for Hotmail. Exchange is an enormously feature-rich system that gobbles resources on a per-account basis. It also relies far too much on monolithic databases that have no integrity features built in, making recovery after failure a serious problem as they grow. I shudder to think how long it would take to restore a 10-million-user database in Exchange, and unless something changed dramatically in the most recent version, restoring the database is the _only_ way to recover from data loss or corruption. > Surprising as this is... Microsoft has Microsoft > source code. Surprising as this is, Microsoft can't always afford to modify its own code. Building a Hotmail-specific version of Exchange is not economically feasible. If it doesn't run with the stock version of Exchange (and apparently attempts to make it do so in the past have failed), then it can't run on Exchange at all. > I rather expect that the main reason they have > not done more to get away from FreeBSD/Solaris > is a resource/reward issue. Maybe, although they should be able to make anything work if they throw enough hardware at it. If they wanted to force use of Exchange for political reasons, and if the product scaled acceptably, they could just add machines until it worked. Certainly Exchange architecture theoretically facilitates this, but perhaps it doesn't work well beyond a certain point in practice (I don't recall exactly _why_ Exchange didn't work for Hotmail). In any case, not using Exchange for Hotmail is not really a bad reflection on Microsoft; it is such a specific and unusual mail application that it would be unreasonable to expect anything to scale to handle it out of the box. > They are probably incredibly short handed, > at this point ... Everything connected with MSN has always been somewhat of a loss for Microsoft, although I suppose they technically make money on it. Obviously they cannot make much money with a free service like Hotmail directly. > If I could do the migration to Windows, then they could > do the migration to Windows... When was the last time you migrated a 60-million-user e-mail system to Windows? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 15 22:54:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5548537B41D for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0120.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.120] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FVBO-0006GY-00; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:53:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1C4506.4343CF9A@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:53:58 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Valence Logrus , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail _still_ runs FreeBSD! References: <20011215041054.H40531-100000@arctic.icelab.net> <030701c18575$2ca87570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1B7A33.D05FA85A@mindspring.com> <002c01c185f8$82bef1e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > How do you ensure that everything is local delivery if you have multiple > machines? With 120 machines and load balancing that can accept a message to > anyone on any machine, less than 1% of incoming messages will arrive on a > machine that is also the destination server of the messages. So 99% of > messages will have to be rerouted to a different machine. That's actually not correct. It depends on your message store technology. In any case, the "120 machines" number was based on forwarding servers. If the mail was delivered to local disk in all cases, you could do it with 60. > And what about users retrieving mail? How do you make sure that each user > goes to the correct server? Either the client must know which server to > access, or all traffic must be funneled through the same server, although > you could load balance over those servers. The easiest way to so this is to use IMAP4 servers for the email (you need this for multiple mailboxes, in any case, unless you go to an incredibly custom solution, which is a point of diminishing returns, in my book). Then, as part of the LDAP directory entry for the user record, you include the host(s) on which the storage is to be considered "local". You dedicate a number of machines with 4G of RAM, and put an LDAP directed IMAP4 proxy server on it. You can easily handle more than 250,000 simultaneous proxy session, assuming you work around the FreeBSD outbound port hash problem, and assign 4 IP addresses to the machine internally, to permit 64k*4 outbound interior connections from the proxy. Probably, you would need only one or two boxes for this, but let's say 8, since you may want to include overhead to support stateful failover. > > ... the web interface could even contact the > > remote server directly, should a given email be > > for one or more recipients constrained to a single > > target site > > How do you handle relaying restrictions? If the web machine contacts > another system directly, unless it has at least an MX record pointing to > itself--which it cannot have, since it cannot handle incoming mail. > Unless I'm overlooking something in relaying checks. You are; but it's not important. If you are, then maybe the SPAM'mers are, too, so it's OK. > > You'd still want a lot of machines to front end > > the web interfaces, particularly since the CGI's > > have become incredibly complicated for no good > > user interface or business reasons (unless you > > count forcing the use of custom controls "a good > > business reason"). > > The CGIs are complicated because Microsoft is a software company that bloats > almost everything it produces with lots of additional code. I've complained > to them about this before, pointing out that not every single page on every > single Microsoft site needs to be an ASP, but my complaints fall upon deaf > ears. There are lots of people at MS who like to code, and so they write > code whether it is needed or logical or not. This isn't the reason; as I stated, you could make a business case for the complexity. More than one, actually. > > FWIW: The FreeBSD servers are pretty much > > limited to DNS and other infrastructure pieces, > > rather than customer facing code. > > How did you determine this? I've never heard FreeBSD being discussed, > although it would not surprise me if it were used for such functions. That would be "by talking to Hotmail employees". > > Actually, Exchange would be fairly easy to fix > > to handle that type of load, though you would need > > some cooperation from the NT/2000/XP developement > > team to optimize a couple of rough corners that are > > obvious bottlenecks to scalability on that order. > > Last time I heard (about two years ago), Exchange had been scaled to perhaps > 10 million users in lab experiments, but that is still six times less than > required for Hotmail. Exchange is an enormously feature-rich system that > gobbles resources on a per-account basis. It also relies far too much on > monolithic databases that have no integrity features built in, making > recovery after failure a serious problem as they grow. I shudder to think > how long it would take to restore a 10-million-user database in Exchange, > and unless something changed dramatically in the most recent version, > restoring the database is the _only_ way to recover from data loss or > corruption. Perhaps you missed the part where I said "Hotmail writes incoming messages to a memory filesystem, not stable storage, for later processing"? If a Hotmail server goes down, those messages are lost, utterly. Realize that Hotmail TOS prohibit business use of Hotmail accounts, precisely for fear of someone losing an important email. Hotmail is not business class email. The service I've described, is. > > Surprising as this is... Microsoft has Microsoft > > source code. > > Surprising as this is, Microsoft can't always afford to modify its own code. > Building a Hotmail-specific version of Exchange is not economically > feasible. If it doesn't run with the stock version of Exchange (and > apparently attempts to make it do so in the past have failed), then it can't > run on Exchange at all. You could do this trivially, with a tiny policy decision, and throwing hardware at the problem. I will not describe the approach further, for fear they would implement it. If they want to do it, they will have to pay me a lot for the information. > > I rather expect that the main reason they have > > not done more to get away from FreeBSD/Solaris > > is a resource/reward issue. > > Maybe, although they should be able to make anything work if they throw > enough hardware at it. If they wanted to force use of Exchange for > political reasons, and if the product scaled acceptably, they could just add > machines until it worked. Certainly Exchange architecture theoretically > facilitates this, but perhaps it doesn't work well beyond a certain point in > practice (I don't recall exactly _why_ Exchange didn't work for Hotmail). It was scaling; but they weren't clever enough in their approach; I could have made it work (I tend to solve problems "differently"). > In any case, not using Exchange for Hotmail is not really a bad reflection > on Microsoft; it is such a specific and unusual mail application that it > would be unreasonable to expect anything to scale to handle it out of the > box. This is irrelevent, since they decided to convert, and the conversion failed. If they had taken that tack in the first place, then it would be an acceptable brush-off. I expect that they learned an incredible amount in the process, and are going to be able to do it eventually, even if not now. > > If I could do the migration to Windows, then they could > > do the migration to Windows... > > When was the last time you migrated a 60-million-user e-mail system to > Windows? I built out a 500,000 user mail system for IBM Web Connections in Rochester, NY, and it could have easily scaled to more users simply by throwing hardware at it and loading my distribution CDROMs based on the role you wanted the new machines to take. Does that count? It ran on 6 machines, but they were RS/6000's with crossbar busses with the processors running at a whopping 166MHz (the crappy state of PC hardware is why so many machines would be required; I did assume SCSI, however, for my estimated numbers of machines). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message