From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 2:35:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A517337B400 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0LAbqH63855; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:37:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:37:52 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Rich Wales , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010121023752.B63679@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <20010119222212.10896.richw@wyattearp.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JP+T4n/bALQSJXh8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from doconnor@gsoft.com.au on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 12:26:50AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --JP+T4n/bALQSJXh8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 12:26:50AM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > [redirected to -chat] >=20 > On 19-Jan-01 Rich Wales wrote: > > The picture resolution is 352x240 pixels (NTSC) -- roughly VHS quality. >=20 > If a VCD is VHS quality either NTSC is much worse than PAL or you need a = new > VCR. The former :-) Kris --=20 NOTE: To fetch an updated copy of my GPG key which has not expired, finger kris@FreeBSD.org --JP+T4n/bALQSJXh8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6arwAWry0BWjoQKURAgMwAJ9kio6pk16arqVw/kgy8UzRlSByrACdEbOb BuhFUakLBi9p5HluTXE0oDE= =ggVr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --JP+T4n/bALQSJXh8-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 2:54: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (sydney.lemis.com [192.109.197.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3F837B400 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f0L2Bbe01493; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 13:11:37 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 13:11:37 +1100 From: Greg Lehey To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Rich Wales , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: VHS quality (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010121131137.C1263@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <20010119222212.10896.richw@wyattearp.stanford.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from doconnor@gsoft.com.au on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 12:26:50AM +1030 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 0:26:50 +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > [redirected to -chat] > > On 19-Jan-01 Rich Wales wrote: >> The picture resolution is 352x240 pixels (NTSC) -- roughly VHS quality. > > If a VCD is VHS quality either NTSC is much worse than PAL or you need a new > VCR. Check the specs of a typical vanilla VHS VCR, if you can find them. This value looks about right. SVHS does better, but it's still less than the PAL or NTSC standards can do. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 6:47:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mobile.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [65.0.135.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D1B37B69E; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 06:47:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobile.wemm.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0LElEk04073; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 06:47:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , Rich Wales , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) In-Reply-To: <20010121023752.B63679@citusc17.usc.edu> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 06:47:14 -0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 12:26:50AM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > [redirected to -chat] > > > > On 19-Jan-01 Rich Wales wrote: > > > The picture resolution is 352x240 pixels (NTSC) -- roughly VHS quality. > > > > If a VCD is VHS quality either NTSC is much worse than PAL or you need a = > new > > VCR. > > The former :-) > > Kris It was a pretty rude shock to discover how bad NTSC VHS was when I got here in the US. At first I thought the machine was broken, but alas, it was not to be. :-( What is really sad is when PAL tapes still display better after having the video signal converted to NTSC by a pretty marginal converted... I wish I had a multi-standard TV now. :-( Cheers, -Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 7:37:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C1037B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 07:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from next (crtntx1-ar3-098-023.dsl.gtei.net [4.33.98.23]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with SMTP ; id JAA96157065 Sun, 21 Jan 2001 09:32:09 -0600 (CST) From: "Jason Halbert" To: "Peter Wemm" , "Kris Kennaway" Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , "Rich Wales" , Subject: RE: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:36:52 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Err.. In what way is PAL better then NTSC? NTSC may have about 100 lines less to scan, but it refreshes 10Hz faster then PAL. I used to work in a facility that had a lot of PAL dubbing... if I watched the PAL monitors for too long I would get a headache. You can actually watch PAL flicker. I must still be missing something even after working in Television. --- ----------------------------------------------------------- | Jason P. Halbert | jason@jason-n3xt.org | | Transmitter Maintenance Engineer | DALnet: Push^Pop | | KC5WEG | ICQ#: 86637300 | | KDAF-TV/DT WB 33/32 | (214) 252-3300 | |---------------------------------------------------------| | Experts know more and more about less and less. | | http://jason-n3xt.org | ----------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Peter Wemm Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 14:47 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Daniel O'Connor; Rich Wales; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 12:26:50AM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > [redirected to -chat] > > > > On 19-Jan-01 Rich Wales wrote: > > > The picture resolution is 352x240 pixels (NTSC) -- roughly VHS quality. > > > > If a VCD is VHS quality either NTSC is much worse than PAL or you need a = > new > > VCR. > > The former :-) > > Kris It was a pretty rude shock to discover how bad NTSC VHS was when I got here in the US. At first I thought the machine was broken, but alas, it was not to be. :-( What is really sad is when PAL tapes still display better after having the video signal converted to NTSC by a pretty marginal converted... I wish I had a multi-standard TV now. :-( Cheers, -Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 9:20:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cartier.cirx.org (cartier.cirx.org [211.72.15.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44DA37B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 09:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from clive@localhost) by cartier.cirx.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0LHK2o01895; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:20:02 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from clive) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:20:02 +0800 From: Clive Lin To: cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/games Makefile ports/games/qkmj Makefile distinfo pkg-comment pkg-descr pkg-message pkg-plist Message-ID: <20010122012002.A59269@cartier.cirx.org> References: <200101211708.f0LH8JB67816@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101211708.f0LH8JB67816@freefall.freebsd.org>; from clive@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 09:08:19AM -0800 X-PGP-key: http://freebsd.sinica.edu.tw/~clive/gpgkey.txt Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chinese New Year is coming ! Mahjong is the main entertainment during the New Year period. Now cn.FreeBSD.org and tw.FreeBSD.org users will still keep busy on FreeBSD, to play qkmj :-) On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 09:08:19AM -0800, Clive Lin wrote: > clive 2001/01/21 09:08:19 PST > > Modified files: > games Makefile > Added files: > games/qkmj Makefile distinfo pkg-comment pkg-descr > pkg-message pkg-plist > Log: > New port: QKMJ > > This is a server-client version of Ma2Jiang4, sometimes called > "Mah-jong" in English. The rules are complicated and available via > a search engine. > > Reviewed by: phj@cn.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 10:40:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from puck.firepipe.net (mcut-b-167.resnet.purdue.edu [128.211.209.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE0C637B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by puck.firepipe.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 264EE19C5; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 13:40:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 13:40:13 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Clive Lin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/games Makefile ports/games/qkmj Makefile distinfo pkg-comment pkg-descr pkg-message pkg-plist Message-ID: <20010121134013.D1663@puck.firepipe.net> Reply-To: Will Andrews References: <200101211708.f0LH8JB67816@freefall.freebsd.org> <20010121112753.A42618@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="d9ADC0YsG2v16Js0" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010121112753.A42618@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 11:27:54AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --d9ADC0YsG2v16Js0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 11:27:54AM -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > From attending BSDCon2000, I was surprised at the number of=20 > non-Asians who knew how to play ma2jiang4. Well, it is Chinese > New Year in the upcoming week. And playing ma2jiang4 can be=20 > considered a tradition. *hint hint* Actually, "Mah-jong" or "Mahjongg" or similar games are quite popular in various game collections and many Americans have learned how to play the game, although that doesn't include me. :P --=20 wca --d9ADC0YsG2v16Js0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD4DBQE6ay0MF47idPgWcsURAvUBAJ9ki+L3M5Ho/uhddtUYt37KVqB8KgCWJSZn K9f8YwIhli6Zu7tK/CyOSw== =N9DK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --d9ADC0YsG2v16Js0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 13: 0:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E314537B400 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 13:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 55296575AA; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:00:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:00:22 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Clive Lin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/games Makefile ports/games/qkmj Makefile distinfo pkg-comment pkg-descr pkg-message pkg-plist Message-ID: <20010121150022.C42618@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Clive Lin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <200101211708.f0LH8JB67816@freefall.freebsd.org> <20010122012002.A59269@cartier.cirx.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010122012002.A59269@cartier.cirx.org>; from clive@CirX.ORG on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:20:02AM +0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:20:02AM +0800, Clive Lin scribbled: | | Chinese New Year is coming ! | | Mahjong is the main entertainment during the New Year period. | Now cn.FreeBSD.org and tw.FreeBSD.org users will still keep busy on FreeBSD, | to play qkmj :-) I thought this was the plan we agreed on. :P | On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 09:08:19AM -0800, Clive Lin wrote: | > clive 2001/01/21 09:08:19 PST | > Log: | > New port: QKMJ | > This is a server-client version of Ma2Jiang4, sometimes called | > "Mah-jong" in English. The rules are complicated and available via | > a search engine. | > Reviewed by: phj@cn.FreeBSD.org -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 14:47:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331B837B404; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0LMoI774046; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:50:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:50:18 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Jason Halbert Cc: Peter Wemm , Kris Kennaway , "Daniel O'Connor" , Rich Wales , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6TrnltStXW4iwmi0" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from res02jw5@gte.net on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 03:36:52PM -0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --6TrnltStXW4iwmi0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 03:36:52PM -0000, Jason Halbert wrote: > Err.. In what way is PAL better then NTSC? NTSC may have about 100 > lines less to scan, but it refreshes 10Hz faster then PAL. I used to > work in a facility that had a lot of PAL dubbing... if I watched the > PAL monitors for too long I would get a headache. You can actually > watch PAL flicker. I've never noticed the refresh rate, but the quality of picture is *noticeably* higher for PAL. I've had two US friends express unprompted amazement at seeing the resolution and picture quality of stuff taped from australian TV, for example (on my large, multi-system TV ;-). Kris -- NOTE: To fetch an updated copy of my GPG key which has not expired, finger kris@FreeBSD.org --6TrnltStXW4iwmi0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6a2eqWry0BWjoQKURAiEjAJ9LgpDGu36vmLI32/I2i+fWm/7mzACfYL6X /BcwJKxHHXVkmowy89S1XxI= =FsFG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6TrnltStXW4iwmi0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 14:54:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEBB37B401; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:54:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5302F575AA; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:54:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:54:22 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu>; from kris@FreeBSD.ORG on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 02:50:18PM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 02:50:18PM -0800, Kris Kennaway scribbled: | On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 03:36:52PM -0000, Jason Halbert wrote: | > Err.. In what way is PAL better then NTSC? NTSC may have about 100 | > lines less to scan, but it refreshes 10Hz faster then PAL. I used to | > work in a facility that had a lot of PAL dubbing... if I watched the | > PAL monitors for too long I would get a headache. You can actually | > watch PAL flicker. | | I've never noticed the refresh rate, but the quality of picture is | *noticeably* higher for PAL. I've had two US friends express | unprompted amazement at seeing the resolution and picture quality of | stuff taped from australian TV, for example (on my large, multi-system | TV ;-). I ask the same questions about why Americans not using GSM but PCS cell phones. (FYI, the reason for using PCS in the U.S. was a pure political reason, none other than America wanting to "lead" the industry. :) ) But since the rest of the world uses SI units and GSM phones, there is not much "leading" there. /me dons the Anti-American-Flame asbestos suit Note to NORAD: Please do not fire the ICBM's with U.S.A. markings at my apartment. I do not have much use for them nowadays. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 15:32:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0291637B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:32:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id RAA45914190 Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:26:36 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA26082; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:32:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:32:06 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010121153206.A26061@darkstar.gte.net> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 04:54:22PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 04:54:22PM -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 02:50:18PM -0800, Kris Kennaway scribbled: > | On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 03:36:52PM -0000, Jason Halbert wrote: > | > Err.. In what way is PAL better then NTSC? NTSC may have about 100 > | > lines less to scan, but it refreshes 10Hz faster then PAL. I used to > | > work in a facility that had a lot of PAL dubbing... if I watched the > | > PAL monitors for too long I would get a headache. You can actually > | > watch PAL flicker. > | > | I've never noticed the refresh rate, but the quality of picture is > | *noticeably* higher for PAL. I've had two US friends express > | unprompted amazement at seeing the resolution and picture quality of > | stuff taped from australian TV, for example (on my large, multi-system > | TV ;-). I got the impression that the big drawback to NTSC wasn't primarily the framerate/resolution argument, but the effects that being backwards compatible with B/W caused. (The color clock is marginal/unstable.) (The 50/60Hz issue has points to argue as well. Relative efficiencies and the like.) I notice how quickly the color information deteriorates on VHS (NTSC). But then again I have no love for DVD video or CD audio either. I think both were overly large compromises. (Reaches for a fire extinguisher.) Both formats do what they intended, but they seemed to have shot low. > > I ask the same questions about why Americans not using > GSM but PCS cell phones. (FYI, the reason for using PCS in the U.S. > was a pure political reason, none other than America wanting > to "lead" the industry. :) ) I always forget. Which system do people claim is better? I thought that GSM was trumpted as a great thing. > > But since the rest of the world uses SI units and GSM phones, > there is not much "leading" there. > > /me dons the Anti-American-Flame asbestos suit > > Note to NORAD: Please do not fire the ICBM's with U.S.A. markings > at my apartment. I do not have much use for them nowadays. > -- > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | > | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 15:45:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22D337B401; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A6AE56AC18; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:15:24 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:15:24 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Jason Halbert Cc: Peter Wemm , Kris Kennaway , Daniel O'Connor , Rich Wales , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010122101524.I93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from res02jw5@gte.net on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 03:36:52PM -0000 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 15:36:52 -0000, Jason Halbert wrote: > (missing attribution to Peter Wemm) >> Kris Kennaway wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 12:26:50AM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: >>>> [redirected to -chat] >>>> >>>> On 19-Jan-01 Rich Wales wrote: >>>>> The picture resolution is 352x240 pixels (NTSC) -- roughly VHS >>>>> quality. >>>> >>>> If a VCD is VHS quality either NTSC is much worse than PAL or you >>>> need a new VCR. >>> >>> The former :-) >> >> It was a pretty rude shock to discover how bad NTSC VHS was when I >> got here in the US. At first I thought the machine was broken, but >> alas, it was not to be. :-( What is really sad is when PAL tapes >> still display better after having the video signal converted to >> NTSC by a pretty marginal converted... I wish I had a >> multi-standard TV now. :-( > > Err.. In what way is PAL better then NTSC? NTSC may have about 100 > lines less to scan, but it refreshes 10Hz faster then PAL. 5 Hz. 30 Hz vs. 25 Hz. > I used to work in a facility that had a lot of PAL dubbing... if I > watched the PAL monitors for too long I would get a headache. You > can actually watch PAL flicker. > > I must still be missing something even after working in Television. It's a thing called "resolution". Is 800x600 better than 640x480? Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 15:47: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7DE37B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:46:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 659E56AC18; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:16:41 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:16:41 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010122101641.J93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 04:54:22PM -0600 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 16:54:22 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 02:50:18PM -0800, Kris Kennaway scribbled: >> On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 03:36:52PM -0000, Jason Halbert wrote: >>> Err.. In what way is PAL better then NTSC? NTSC may have about 100 >>> lines less to scan, but it refreshes 10Hz faster then PAL. I used to >>> work in a facility that had a lot of PAL dubbing... if I watched the >>> PAL monitors for too long I would get a headache. You can actually >>> watch PAL flicker. >> >> I've never noticed the refresh rate, but the quality of picture is >> *noticeably* higher for PAL. I've had two US friends express >> unprompted amazement at seeing the resolution and picture quality of >> stuff taped from australian TV, for example (on my large, multi-system >> TV ;-). > > I ask the same questions about why Americans not using > GSM but PCS cell phones. (FYI, the reason for using PCS in the U.S. > was a pure political reason, none other than America wanting > to "lead" the industry. :) ) "PCS" is a blanket term for digital phones. It includes GSM, even if it's not used that way. > But since the rest of the world uses SI units and GSM phones, there > is not much "leading" there. Note that in Australia we're using CDMA as well because of some of the design limitations of GSM. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 15:47:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574FC37B401; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1143.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.232.119]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id D49B2DEE8; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:47:13 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:32:14 +0100 To: Kris Kennaway , Jason Halbert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Cc: Peter Wemm , Kris Kennaway , "Daniel O'Connor" , Rich Wales , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:50 PM -0800 2001/1/21, Kris Kennaway wrote: > I've never noticed the refresh rate, but the quality of picture is > *noticeably* higher for PAL. I've had two US friends express > unprompted amazement at seeing the resolution and picture quality of > stuff taped from australian TV, for example (on my large, multi-system > TV ;-). Sure, any system that is displaying a converted format on a display device (such as NTSC on a native PAL TV) will always look worse than the native format on that same display device. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 15:47:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2998B37B402; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1143.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.232.119]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586C0E791; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:47:21 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:46:38 +0100 To: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:54 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: > I ask the same questions about why Americans not using > GSM but PCS cell phones. (FYI, the reason for using PCS in the U.S. > was a pure political reason, none other than America wanting > to "lead" the industry. :) ) Qualcomm invented Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA), the superior digital cell phone technology that is the basis for all 3G projects around the world. CDMA is supplanting TDMA in the US, because it allows you to carry more calls in the same amount of frequency bandwidth than TDMA, the previous digital technology. Anybody that has to replace TDMA technology with CDMA technology winds up pretty much completely replacing the entire network they built, which is why it's still taking time to make this conversion in the US. However, Europe made the "leap" to TDMA technology in GSM, before CDMA existed -- standard AMPS/NAMPS style analog cell phone technology had been stretched beyond its limits, and they had no choice but to go digital. Therefore, pretty much all European companies will end up ripping out their entire set of existing TDMA-based GSM networks and replacing them with brand-new CDMA-based 3G equipment. The same will happen in the US, as 3G takes over from existing TDMA, CDMA, AMPS/NAMPS networks, but at least many of those companies will have relatively less money thrown down the TDMA hole which they then have to completely write off. > But since the rest of the world uses SI units and GSM phones, > there is not much "leading" there. At least if you're in the US and you're in an area supposedly served by your carrier but their signal is too weak, you can roam on the networks in that same area that are operated by their competitors -- you can't do that over here. If you are in Belgium and a Proximus customer, and you're in an area where Proximus doesn't have coverage but Mobistar or KPN Orange do, you are screwed. If you're a Belgian customer of Proximus and you're roaming outside the country, that's no problem -- so long as you're not on a "Pay and go" prepaid card (they never work outside the country of their issue). Of course, US phones also have the concept of "multiple NAMs" (Number Assignment Modules, i.e., account numbers), so that you can actually have accounts on multiple different carriers, and switch between them at your leisure. Many allow up to 99 NAMs on a single phone. Just try that with a GSM. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 15:51:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA05F37B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 41D216AC18; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:21:03 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:21:03 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Robert Clark Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010122102103.K93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121153206.A26061@darkstar.gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010121153206.A26061@darkstar.gte.net>; from res03db2@gte.net on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 03:32:06PM -0800 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 15:32:06 -0800, Robert Clark wrote: > On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 04:54:22PM -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: >> On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 02:50:18PM -0800, Kris Kennaway scribbled: >>> On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 03:36:52PM -0000, Jason Halbert wrote: >>>> Err.. In what way is PAL better then NTSC? NTSC may have about 100 >>>> lines less to scan, but it refreshes 10Hz faster then PAL. I used to >>>> work in a facility that had a lot of PAL dubbing... if I watched the >>>> PAL monitors for too long I would get a headache. You can actually >>>> watch PAL flicker. >>> >>> I've never noticed the refresh rate, but the quality of picture is >>> *noticeably* higher for PAL. I've had two US friends express >>> unprompted amazement at seeing the resolution and picture quality of >>> stuff taped from australian TV, for example (on my large, multi-system >>> TV ;-). > > I got the impression that the big drawback to NTSC wasn't primarily > the framerate/resolution argument, but the effects that being backwards > compatible with B/W caused. (The color clock is marginal/unstable.) No, PAL and SÉCAM are also backwards compatible to B/W. The issue with NTSC ("Never The Same Colo[u]r") is that it suffers from transmission phase changes which cause skin hues to range from green to bright red. PAL and SÉCAM colour modulation solve this problem. The resolution problem was solved earlier in the B/W era. > I notice how quickly the color information deteriorates on VHS > (NTSC). I can't see an obvious technical reason for that. It might be related to the VHS recording techniques. The tape moves a lot slower for NTSC SP recordings, so a 160 minute NTSC tape will only last 120 minutes on PAL or SÉCAM. >> I ask the same questions about why Americans not using >> GSM but PCS cell phones. (FYI, the reason for using PCS in the U.S. >> was a pure political reason, none other than America wanting >> to "lead" the industry. :) ) > > I always forget. Which system do people claim is better? I thought > that GSM was trumpted as a great thing. Once upon a time. It has some basic timing constraints which require the phones to be no further than 30 km from the base station; there's a very sharp cutoff then, even if you have signal. Over here, 30 km isn't very far. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 15:53:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B36437B404 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0LNtu475214; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:55:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:55:56 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010121155556.B75159@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="i0/AhcQY5QxfSsSZ" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 12:32:14AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --i0/AhcQY5QxfSsSZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 12:32:14AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 2:50 PM -0800 2001/1/21, Kris Kennaway wrote: >=20 > > I've never noticed the refresh rate, but the quality of picture is > > *noticeably* higher for PAL. I've had two US friends express > > unprompted amazement at seeing the resolution and picture quality of > > stuff taped from australian TV, for example (on my large, multi-system > > TV ;-). >=20 > Sure, any system that is displaying a converted format on a=20 > display device (such as NTSC on a native PAL TV) will always look=20 > worse than the native format on that same display device. It's a multi-system TV which does NTSC and PAL natively. No conversion is involved (unless I tell my VCR to convert from NTSC to PAL, in which case there IS degradation) Kris --=20 NOTE: To fetch an updated copy of my GPG key which has not expired, finger kris@FreeBSD.org --i0/AhcQY5QxfSsSZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6a3cLWry0BWjoQKURAgK5AKDz+PhhLlKS+uKcmTYYm08T0s7trQCeK3hH mETRhPdG7d5Hz/rxchU9U5I= =J1Yc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --i0/AhcQY5QxfSsSZ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 16: 2: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 808E037B401; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:01:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8953A6AC18; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:31:36 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:31:36 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 12:46:38AM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 0:46:38 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 4:54 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: > >> I ask the same questions about why Americans not using >> GSM but PCS cell phones. (FYI, the reason for using PCS in the U.S. >> was a pure political reason, none other than America wanting >> to "lead" the industry. :) ) > > Qualcomm invented Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA), the > superior digital cell phone technology that is the basis for all 3G > projects around the world. CDMA is supplanting TDMA in the US, > because it allows you to carry more calls in the same amount of > frequency bandwidth than TDMA, the previous digital technology. > > Anybody that has to replace TDMA technology with CDMA technology > winds up pretty much completely replacing the entire network they > built, which is why it's still taking time to make this conversion in > the US. Hmm. This doesn't tie in with what I've been told by people in the business of developing the equipment. According to my information, the reason they took CDMA in the US was because it *was* easier to upgrade from analogue to TDMA to CDMA. > However, Europe made the "leap" to TDMA technology in GSM, before > CDMA existed -- standard AMPS/NAMPS style analog cell phone > technology had been stretched beyond its limits, and they had no > choice but to go digital. It's true that GSM is a TDMA technology, but it's definitely not what is called TDMA in the USA. > Therefore, pretty much all European companies will end up > ripping out their entire set of existing TDMA-based GSM networks and > replacing them with brand-new CDMA-based 3G equipment. Have you seen any evidence of this? In Australia, we have both, but there appear to be no efforts to supplant GSM. I've just spoken to Hugh Blemings, the author of gnokii, and he points out that other features of GSM are far superior to CDMA. Bandwidth utilization isn't the only factor. > The same will happen in the US, as 3G takes over from existing > TDMA, CDMA, AMPS/NAMPS networks, but at least many of those > companies will have relatively less money thrown down the TDMA hole > which they then have to completely write off. Don't forget that they have recently started introducing GSM into the USA. I've found that it works better than the CDMA service. This has nothing to do with the relative merits of the technology, but with the fact that the service providers learnt that their cell placement was too sparse for the old analogue/*DMA network, and they placed them closer for GSM. >> But since the rest of the world uses SI units and GSM phones, >> there is not much "leading" there. > > At least if you're in the US and you're in an area supposedly > served by your carrier but their signal is too weak, you can roam on > the networks in that same area that are operated by their competitors > -- you can't do that over here. I'm not sure to what extent it works in the USA. > Of course, US phones also have the concept of "multiple NAMs" > (Number Assignment Modules, i.e., account numbers), so that you can > actually have accounts on multiple different carriers, and switch > between them at your leisure. Many allow up to 99 NAMs on a single > phone. Just try that with a GSM. Not a problem. You store each of them on a SIMM. When I go to other countries, I often borrow a local SIMM to save on costs. Just try that with CDMA. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 16: 3: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DDF637B401; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5EA04575AA; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:02:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:02:59 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Robert Clark Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Mobile phone technologies (Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: Message-ID: <20010121180259.A44819@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Robert Clark , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121153206.A26061@darkstar.gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010121153206.A26061@darkstar.gte.net>; from res03db2@gte.net on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 03:32:06PM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 03:32:06PM -0800, Robert Clark scribbled: | On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 04:54:22PM -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: | > On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 02:50:18PM -0800, Kris Kennaway scribbled: | But then again I have no love for DVD video or CD audio either. I think | both were overly large compromises. (Reaches for a fire extinguisher.) | | Both formats do what they intended, but they seemed to have shot low. I would have preferred a much better way of packaging the media, such as the MD way of putting things. :) The data quality is not that much of an improvement. | > I ask the same questions about why Americans not using | > GSM but PCS cell phones. (FYI, the reason for using PCS in the U.S. | > was a pure political reason, none other than America wanting | > to "lead" the industry. :) ) | | I always forget. Which system do people claim is better? I thought | that GSM was trumpted as a great thing. GSM is, by design, a much better system. It does the following: A. ease of switching phones B. transporting data via SIM cards C. Global roaming and identification by the SIM cards (Each PCS phone, however, also has an EIN unique id number, quite like a NIC's MAC address.) D. Better transmission technology I have great hopes on GPRS and 3G cell phones. In Japan, they already have phones that can do up to 150Kb/s with built-in video cameras. They do real video conferencing at smaller size than that of an Palm Vx or III. This is where IPv6 comes in handy, just give each phone an IPv6 address. And you have a constant stable connection at DSL/cable speeds. Who knows, one day, we may even have chest badges like Star Trek or computers that tie onto your wrist.... -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 16: 4:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD96237B402; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1143.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.232.119]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560AADDDA; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:03:53 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010121155556.B75159@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121155556.B75159@citusc17.usc.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:03:12 +0100 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:55 PM -0800 2001/1/21, Kris Kennaway wrote: > It's a multi-system TV which does NTSC and PAL natively. No conversion > is involved (unless I tell my VCR to convert from NTSC to PAL, in > which case there IS degradation) I've got a multi-system TV, too. Trust me, there's always a "native" format, and a converted format. Since most multi-system video devices seem to come from Europe, they would naturally be "native" PAL or SECAM format, and NTSC would be the converted format. I've brought my NTSC-only VHS VCR and DVD player from the US, and they do just fine on our TV (a high-end Sony Trinitron). But they also did just fine on our old TV from the US (also a high-end Sony Trinitron), which happens to be in the basement. I'm quite certain that if I hooked up a splitter from the VCR or the DVD player and put the same video signal on both TVs, it would look better on the true native NTSC format television than they would on the one that has its own built-in NTSC/PAL converter. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 16:12:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D960137B401; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:12:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E711D6AC18; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:42:32 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:42:32 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010122104232.M93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121155556.B75159@citusc17.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:03:12AM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 1:03:12 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:55 PM -0800 2001/1/21, Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> It's a multi-system TV which does NTSC and PAL natively. No conversion >> is involved (unless I tell my VCR to convert from NTSC to PAL, in >> which case there IS degradation) > > I've got a multi-system TV, too. Trust me, there's always a > "native" format, and a converted format. Since most multi-system > video devices seem to come from Europe, they would naturally be > "native" PAL or SECAM format, and NTSC would be the converted > format. Look at the circuitry of a TV. You have one or more decoders which convert the incoming composite stream into RGB and sync pulses. Beyond that point they're as system-dependent as the monitor in front of you. The decoders themselves are so cheap that you'd think it would be easier to build multisystem VCRs. > I'm quite certain that if I hooked up a splitter from the VCR > or the DVD player and put the same video signal on both TVs, it > would look better on the true native NTSC format television than > they would on the one that has its own built-in NTSC/PAL converter. Well, you could try, but even then it would be a comparison between individual devices. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 16:13: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A755E37B404; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id ABF44575AA; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:12:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:12:51 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Brad Knowles Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Brad Knowles , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 12:46:38AM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 12:46:38AM +0100, Brad Knowles scribbled: | At 4:54 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: | | > I ask the same questions about why Americans not using | > GSM but PCS cell phones. (FYI, the reason for using PCS in the U.S. | > was a pure political reason, none other than America wanting | > to "lead" the industry. :) ) | | Qualcomm invented Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA), the | superior digital cell phone technology that is the basis for all 3G | projects around the world. CDMA is supplanting TDMA in the US, | because it allows you to carry more calls in the same amount of | frequency bandwidth than TDMA, the previous digital technology. Brad, Hug W-CDMA (Wideband-CDMA) K PLZ THX. :) | Anybody that has to replace TDMA technology with CDMA technology | winds up pretty much completely replacing the entire network they | built, which is why it's still taking time to make this conversion in | the US. However, Europe made the "leap" to TDMA technology in GSM, | before CDMA existed -- standard AMPS/NAMPS style analog cell phone | technology had been stretched beyond its limits, and they had no | choice but to go digital. Everyone would agree that CDMA is superior to TDMA. But that still does not make PCS portable across different phones. | Therefore, pretty much all European companies will end up ripping | out their entire set of existing TDMA-based GSM networks and | replacing them with brand-new CDMA-based 3G equipment. | | The same will happen in the US, as 3G takes over from existing | TDMA, CDMA, AMPS/NAMPS networks, but at least many of those companies | will have relatively less money thrown down the TDMA hole which they | then have to completely write off. Yes, Go Go Go Third Generation Mobile Phones. | > But since the rest of the world uses SI units and GSM phones, | > there is not much "leading" there. | | At least if you're in the US and you're in an area supposedly | served by your carrier but their signal is too weak, you can roam on | the networks in that same area that are operated by their competitors | -- you can't do that over here. Hmm? I can do that in Asia. But then there is no need to do so, since Asian countries like Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan cover every inch of their territories. (Benefit of a small country.) | If you are in Belgium and a Proximus customer, and you're in an | area where Proximus doesn't have coverage but Mobistar or KPN Orange | do, you are screwed. If you're a Belgian customer of Proximus and Switch a SIM card? | you're roaming outside the country, that's no problem -- so long as | you're not on a "Pay and go" prepaid card (they never work outside | the country of their issue). | | Of course, US phones also have the concept of "multiple NAMs" | (Number Assignment Modules, i.e., account numbers), so that you can | actually have accounts on multiple different carriers, and switch | between them at your leisure. Many allow up to 99 NAMs on a single | phone. Just try that with a GSM. The US carriers identify via the EIN of the phone. But in reality, you really have no roaming between two carriers much. e.g. AT&T phones will not work with Sprint networks. Bottom line, I like GSM for being the lesser evil. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 16:15:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD6437B401; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1143.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.232.119]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B20182EB; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:14:57 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:14:22 +0100 To: Greg Lehey From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:31 AM +1030 2001/1/22, Greg Lehey wrote: > Don't forget that they have recently started introducing GSM into the > USA. I've found that it works better than the CDMA service. This has > nothing to do with the relative merits of the technology, but with the > fact that the service providers learnt that their cell placement was > too sparse for the old analogue/*DMA network, and they placed them > closer for GSM. As have pointed out yourself, quality of service with GSM in the US (in those very, very few places that have GSM service) has little to do with any supposed superior features of the technology, and more to do with more intelligent spacing of the towers and presumably other implementation lessons that have been learned, etc.... > I'm not sure to what extent it works in the USA. Roaming in the US has always worked just fine for me, even when I was roaming in an area that was supposedly covered by my carrier. Not once have I ever had a problem with being able to roam in an area (so long as there was any coverage available at all). Yes, it might have been expensive, but expensive is preferable to no connectivity at all. The key factor governing accessibility and coverage in the US is that virtually all digital phones sold are dual-mode digital/analog, or tri-mode GSM/digital (CDMA or TDMA)/analog, and therefore you can almost always get coverage even if the coverage isn't ideal (or may require roaming). That's simply not possible over here in Europe. > Not a problem. You store each of them on a SIMM. When I go to other > countries, I often borrow a local SIMM to save on costs. Just try > that with CDMA. SIMs are a major pain-in-the-ass. Do you know how easy it is to lose those tiny little things? I'd much prefer to have the multiple NAM capability in the phone itself, and not have SIMs at all. The one and only thing SIMs have going for them is they make it easier to take your account information with you if you want/need to switch phones, but having multiple NAMs in a phone that implemented all the proper carrier technologies would pretty much eliminate the need to do that. If you were to ever want to upgrade the phone, you should be able to have the necessary account information transferred from one phone directly to the other. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 16:20:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A5A37B404; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8D271575AA; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:20:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:20:33 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010121182033.C44819@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Greg Lehey , Brad Knowles , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 10:31:36AM +1030 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 10:31:36AM +1030, Greg Lehey scribbled: | On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 0:46:38 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: | > At 4:54 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: | > | >> I ask the same questions about why Americans not using | >> GSM but PCS cell phones. (FYI, the reason for using PCS in the U.S. | >> was a pure political reason, none other than America wanting | >> to "lead" the industry. :) ) | > | > Qualcomm invented Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA), the | > superior digital cell phone technology that is the basis for all 3G | > projects around the world. CDMA is supplanting TDMA in the US, | > because it allows you to carry more calls in the same amount of | > frequency bandwidth than TDMA, the previous digital technology. | > | > Anybody that has to replace TDMA technology with CDMA technology | > winds up pretty much completely replacing the entire network they | > built, which is why it's still taking time to make this conversion in | > the US. | | Hmm. This doesn't tie in with what I've been told by people in the | business of developing the equipment. According to my information, | the reason they took CDMA in the US was because it *was* easier to | upgrade from analogue to TDMA to CDMA. The costs are almost the same between TDMA and CDMA equipment. | > However, Europe made the "leap" to TDMA technology in GSM, before | > CDMA existed -- standard AMPS/NAMPS style analog cell phone | > technology had been stretched beyond its limits, and they had no | > choice but to go digital. | | It's true that GSM is a TDMA technology, but it's definitely not what | is called TDMA in the USA. GSM is a set of protocol for mobile phones, and so is PCS. I tend to think of them as being comparable to TCP vs. UDP. Believe it or not, the OSI 7-layer useless model applies to mobile phones and telecomm too. We have counterparts to TCP/IP OSI model in the mobile comm OSI model. Why do I think that OSI model is useless? To paraphrase/quote wpaul: "Nobody in the real world uses the OSI model, it was created just so that professors and other people can make paper tests that have no importance other than making students memorize useless things." | > Therefore, pretty much all European companies will end up | > ripping out their entire set of existing TDMA-based GSM networks and | > replacing them with brand-new CDMA-based 3G equipment. | | Have you seen any evidence of this? In Australia, we have both, but | there appear to be no efforts to supplant GSM. I've just spoken to | Hugh Blemings, the author of gnokii, and he points out that other | features of GSM are far superior to CDMA. Bandwidth utilization isn't | the only factor. | | > The same will happen in the US, as 3G takes over from existing | > TDMA, CDMA, AMPS/NAMPS networks, but at least many of those | > companies will have relatively less money thrown down the TDMA hole | > which they then have to completely write off. | | Don't forget that they have recently started introducing GSM into the | USA. I've found that it works better than the CDMA service. This has | nothing to do with the relative merits of the technology, but with the | fact that the service providers learnt that their cell placement was | too sparse for the old analogue/*DMA network, and they placed them | closer for GSM. Yes, I recently switched from AT&T PCS to Voicestream GSM in America. | >> But since the rest of the world uses SI units and GSM phones, | >> there is not much "leading" there. | > | > At least if you're in the US and you're in an area supposedly | > served by your carrier but their signal is too weak, you can roam on | > the networks in that same area that are operated by their competitors | > -- you can't do that over here. | | I'm not sure to what extent it works in the USA. | | > Of course, US phones also have the concept of "multiple NAMs" | > (Number Assignment Modules, i.e., account numbers), so that you can | > actually have accounts on multiple different carriers, and switch | > between them at your leisure. Many allow up to 99 NAMs on a single | > phone. Just try that with a GSM. | | Not a problem. You store each of them on a SIMM. When I go to other | countries, I often borrow a local SIMM to save on costs. Just try | that with CDMA. CDMA is not a cell phone protocol. :) CDMA is...what we can approximate as frequency-hopping between channels. (Yes, I know this is a bad approximation, but it is the best I can do in a sentence.) TDMA is time-sharing a channel. The reason that CDMA works better is because it resists noise and transmits more data. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 16:30:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE94237B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:30:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1143.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.232.119]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 475B3E713; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:30:12 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:29:13 +0100 To: "Michael C . Wu" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:12 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: > Hmm? I can do that in Asia. But then there is no need to do so, > since Asian countries like Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan cover > every inch of their territories. (Benefit of a small country.) Do they cover all the mountainous areas? What about all rivers and caves? Can you be 100% guaranteed that no matter where you were to hike, camp, or do white-water rafting, you could always get full and complete coverage with all of the carriers in the country? You certainly can't get those kinds of guarantees over here, not even in a country like Belgium that has about the same land mass as the state of Maryland (one of the smaller states in the US), and with less population than the combined Washington, D.C. and Baltimore metropolitan areas (fifteen million people, total). > Switch a SIM card? Do you really want to carry around three SIM cards, three phone numbers, and have to be constantly switching between them to get coverage? You might as well have three cheap phones, one on each network, and be done with it. Did you know that you can't use any SMS gateway I know of to send SMS messages to customers that are not on the same carrier as the gateway? Sure, if you're a human being and you're typing in an SMS message, you can probably send it to any recipient on any carrier on any phone number. But if you want to receive automated SMS messages from a network monitoring system, you have to make sure that the carrier for the gateway machine is on the same carrier your phone is, otherwise it simply won't work. We have investigated this matter at length, and it looks like the only solution we have available to us is to set up three separate gateways, one for each carrier within the country. > The US carriers identify via the EIN of the phone. > But in reality, you really have no roaming between two carriers > much. e.g. AT&T phones will not work with Sprint networks. But Sprint phones have to work on all the analog networks (which they don't own), because their coverage is so incredibly crappy. You can't go more than a pencils width away from the major interstates, or outside the largest metropolitan areas, before you're off Sprint's network and one one that belongs to someone else. I've never, ever had a problem roaming on another network if that is what it took to get signal coverage, even if I was in an area that was supposedly covered by my carrier. All the GSM carriers over here have roaming arrangements with all the other GSM carriers outside of their respective countries, but roaming on a different network while you're inside the home country of your carrier just isn't possible. And sometimes that is a major, major pain-in-the-ass. > Bottom line, I like GSM for being the lesser evil. I'll take CDMA, any day. Fortunately, I won't have to wait too long before everything over here will be CDMA, and by then, maybe all the stupid little national carriers will have been consolidated into a small number of continental carriers that are all forced to have roaming arrangements with each other, and then we won't have any more of this incredibly stupid crap. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 16:35:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.registeredsite.com (mail1.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76D4537B401 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.threespace.com (mail.threespace.com [216.247.134.44]) by mail1.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0M0Ymn09539 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:34:48 -0500 Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com [24.21.224.204] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A023118C0142; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:34:43 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010121192842.017a3458@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:34:36 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Technology means nothing (GSM vs. CDMA) In-Reply-To: <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Regardless of whichever is better, we all know that superior technology by itself is seldom a reason for anybody to implement anything, and it has probably never led to such technology having market dominance. Low-cost, ease of implementation, rapid availability--these are the things that ultimately sell. Besides, who wants to carry a bunch of SIMM chips around with their cellular phones too. ;-) --Chip Morton At 07:01 PM 1/21/2001, you wrote: >On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 0:46:38 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 4:54 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: > > > >> I ask the same questions about why Americans not using > >> GSM but PCS cell phones. (FYI, the reason for using PCS in the U.S. > >> was a pure political reason, none other than America wanting > >> to "lead" the industry. :) ) > > > > Qualcomm invented Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA), the > > superior digital cell phone technology that is the basis for all 3G > > projects around the world. CDMA is supplanting TDMA in the US, > > because it allows you to carry more calls in the same amount of > > frequency bandwidth than TDMA, the previous digital technology. > > > > Anybody that has to replace TDMA technology with CDMA technology > > winds up pretty much completely replacing the entire network they > > built, which is why it's still taking time to make this conversion in > > the US. > >Hmm. This doesn't tie in with what I've been told by people in the >business of developing the equipment. According to my information, >the reason they took CDMA in the US was because it *was* easier to >upgrade from analogue to TDMA to CDMA. > > > However, Europe made the "leap" to TDMA technology in GSM, before > > CDMA existed -- standard AMPS/NAMPS style analog cell phone > > technology had been stretched beyond its limits, and they had no > > choice but to go digital. > >It's true that GSM is a TDMA technology, but it's definitely not what >is called TDMA in the USA. > > > Therefore, pretty much all European companies will end up > > ripping out their entire set of existing TDMA-based GSM networks and > > replacing them with brand-new CDMA-based 3G equipment. > >Have you seen any evidence of this? In Australia, we have both, but >there appear to be no efforts to supplant GSM. I've just spoken to >Hugh Blemings, the author of gnokii, and he points out that other >features of GSM are far superior to CDMA. Bandwidth utilization isn't >the only factor. > > > The same will happen in the US, as 3G takes over from existing > > TDMA, CDMA, AMPS/NAMPS networks, but at least many of those > > companies will have relatively less money thrown down the TDMA hole > > which they then have to completely write off. > >Don't forget that they have recently started introducing GSM into the >USA. I've found that it works better than the CDMA service. This has >nothing to do with the relative merits of the technology, but with the >fact that the service providers learnt that their cell placement was >too sparse for the old analogue/*DMA network, and they placed them >closer for GSM. > > >> But since the rest of the world uses SI units and GSM phones, > >> there is not much "leading" there. > > > > At least if you're in the US and you're in an area supposedly > > served by your carrier but their signal is too weak, you can roam on > > the networks in that same area that are operated by their competitors > > -- you can't do that over here. > >I'm not sure to what extent it works in the USA. > > > Of course, US phones also have the concept of "multiple NAMs" > > (Number Assignment Modules, i.e., account numbers), so that you can > > actually have accounts on multiple different carriers, and switch > > between them at your leisure. Many allow up to 99 NAMs on a single > > phone. Just try that with a GSM. > >Not a problem. You store each of them on a SIMM. When I go to other >countries, I often borrow a local SIMM to save on costs. Just try >that with CDMA. > >Greg >-- >Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key >See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 16:48:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCE937B402 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C018F575AA; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:48:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:48:10 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010121184810.A45428@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:29:13AM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris asked me to trim the Cc: lines, He likes other forms of spam. Let's all mail him Subject: Make Money Fast! On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:29:13AM +0100, Brad Knowles scribbled: | At 6:12 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: | | > Hmm? I can do that in Asia. But then there is no need to do so, | > since Asian countries like Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan cover | > every inch of their territories. (Benefit of a small country.) | | Do they cover all the mountainous areas? What about all rivers | and caves? Can you be 100% guaranteed that no matter where you were | to hike, camp, or do white-water rafting, you could always get full | and complete coverage with all of the carriers in the country? Hehe, yes, they do. As long as you keep the phone dry on white-water rafting trips. :) | You certainly can't get those kinds of guarantees over here, not | even in a country like Belgium that has about the same land mass as | the state of Maryland (one of the smaller states in the US), and with | less population than the combined Washington, D.C. and Baltimore | metropolitan areas (fifteen million people, total). Taiwan is only 30000 sq. km. Hong Kong and Singapore are islands. Japan is much larger but they have the most developed cell phone network in the world. | > Switch a SIM card? | Do you really want to carry around three SIM cards, three phone | numbers, and have to be constantly switching between them to get | coverage? You might as well have three cheap phones, one on each | network, and be done with it. Buy a dual-band phone? | Did you know that you can't use any SMS gateway I know of to send | SMS messages to customers that are not on the same carrier as the | gateway? Sure, if you're a human being and you're typing in an SMS | message, you can probably send it to any recipient on any carrier on | any phone number. Mmm, yes, my job is, currently, designing W-CDMA systems. | But if you want to receive automated SMS messages from a network | monitoring system, you have to make sure that the carrier for the | gateway machine is on the same carrier your phone is, otherwise it | simply won't work. We have investigated this matter at length, and | it looks like the only solution we have available to us is to set up | three separate gateways, one for each carrier within the country. | | > The US carriers identify via the EIN of the phone. | > But in reality, you really have no roaming between two carriers | > much. e.g. AT&T phones will not work with Sprint networks. | | But Sprint phones have to work on all the analog networks (which | they don't own), because their coverage is so incredibly crappy. You | can't go more than a pencils width away from the major interstates, | or outside the largest metropolitan areas, before you're off Sprint's | network and one one that belongs to someone else. It is very hard for the US to build a large-scale cell phone system simply because it is too large a country. | I've never, ever had a problem roaming on another network if that | is what it took to get signal coverage, even if I was in an area that | was supposedly covered by my carrier. | | All the GSM carriers over here have roaming arrangements with all | the other GSM carriers outside of their respective countries, but Same here. | roaming on a different network while you're inside the home country | of your carrier just isn't possible. And sometimes that is a major, | major pain-in-the-ass. Gotta love Asian carriers. | > Bottom line, I like GSM for being the lesser evil. | | I'll take CDMA, any day. Fortunately, I won't have to wait too | long before everything over here will be CDMA, and by then, maybe all | the stupid little national carriers will have been consolidated into Love love 3G+W-CDMA. | a small number of continental carriers that are all forced to have | roaming arrangements with each other, and then we won't have any more | of this incredibly stupid crap. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 16:50:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80ECE37B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:50:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from next (crtntx1-ar3-098-023.dsl.gtei.net [4.33.98.23]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with SMTP ; id SAA52050945 Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:44:06 -0600 (CST) From: "Jason Halbert" To: "Brad Knowles" , "Kris Kennaway" , "Jason Halbert" Cc: "Peter Wemm" , "Kris Kennaway" , "Daniel O'Connor" , "Rich Wales" , Subject: RE: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:49:59 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Err.. no. We did PAL production. Not conversion. I know what PAL looks like. I don't think it's any better looking then NTSC. --- ----------------------------------------------------------- | Jason P. Halbert | jason@jason-n3xt.org | | Transmitter Maintenance Engineer | DALnet: Push^Pop | | KC5WEG | ICQ#: 86637300 | | KDAF-TV/DT WB 33/32 | (214) 252-3300 | |---------------------------------------------------------| | Experts know more and more about less and less. | | http://jason-n3xt.org | ----------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Brad Knowles Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 23:32 To: Kris Kennaway; Jason Halbert Cc: Peter Wemm; Kris Kennaway; Daniel O'Connor; Rich Wales; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) At 2:50 PM -0800 2001/1/21, Kris Kennaway wrote: > I've never noticed the refresh rate, but the quality of picture is > *noticeably* higher for PAL. I've had two US friends express > unprompted amazement at seeing the resolution and picture quality of > stuff taped from australian TV, for example (on my large, multi-system > TV ;-). Sure, any system that is displaying a converted format on a display device (such as NTSC on a native PAL TV) will always look worse than the native format on that same display device. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 17: 2:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94C837B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from next (crtntx1-ar3-098-023.dsl.gtei.net [4.33.98.23]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with SMTP ; id SAA83424501 Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:58:33 -0600 (CST) From: "Jason Halbert" To: "Greg Lehey" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: "Kris Kennaway" , Subject: RE: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:58:54 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <20010122104232.M93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmm... I'm thinking cheap is the reason I don't see a difference. I don't have any cheap equipment at my house or the station I work for. All my monitors are broadcast standard quality which is several cuts above consumer. I use a broadband demodulator thats used in broadcast. Maybe that's why I don't notice. --- ----------------------------------------------------------- | Jason P. Halbert | jason@jason-n3xt.org | | Transmitter Maintenance Engineer | DALnet: Push^Pop | | KC5WEG | ICQ#: 86637300 | | KDAF-TV/DT WB 33/32 | (214) 252-3300 | |---------------------------------------------------------| | Experts know more and more about less and less. | | http://jason-n3xt.org | ----------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Greg Lehey Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 00:13 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Kris Kennaway; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 1:03:12 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:55 PM -0800 2001/1/21, Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> It's a multi-system TV which does NTSC and PAL natively. No conversion >> is involved (unless I tell my VCR to convert from NTSC to PAL, in >> which case there IS degradation) > > I've got a multi-system TV, too. Trust me, there's always a > "native" format, and a converted format. Since most multi-system > video devices seem to come from Europe, they would naturally be > "native" PAL or SECAM format, and NTSC would be the converted > format. Look at the circuitry of a TV. You have one or more decoders which convert the incoming composite stream into RGB and sync pulses. Beyond that point they're as system-dependent as the monitor in front of you. The decoders themselves are so cheap that you'd think it would be easier to build multisystem VCRs. > I'm quite certain that if I hooked up a splitter from the VCR > or the DVD player and put the same video signal on both TVs, it > would look better on the true native NTSC format television than > they would on the one that has its own built-in NTSC/PAL converter. Well, you could try, but even then it would be a comparison between individual devices. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 17: 5:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089A337B401; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:05:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA56476; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:04:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:04:52 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Brad Knowles , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) In-Reply-To: <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Michael C . Wu wrote: :The US carriers identify via the EIN of the phone. :But in reality, you really have no roaming between two carriers :much. e.g. AT&T phones will not work with Sprint networks. There's all sorts of inter-carrier roaming going onr, and htere has been for quite some time -- well before digital cellular, in fact. It works very well, if the carriers cooperate, and is usually transparent to the user of the phone, and anyone trying to call them. The reason that an AT&T wireless phone won't work on the sprint network is that AWE is a TDMA carrier, at 1.9GHz some places, and at 800MHz in others. Sprint are exclusively a 1.9 GHz CDMA carrier. If you've got the necessary sprint telephone, you can roam on the analog bits of the AT&T wireless network. In fact, if you leave the major interstates, and the relitively few cities sprint have properly built up (as opposed to the ones they sell service in...), you'll do lots of roaming on other carrier's networks. I've been an AWE wireless customer for years, and haven't encountered anywhere my phone wouldn't work transparently, where there was signal. I did have some problems at one point with the way they program the phone to prefer a low-signal AWE (or one of their partner's networks) to one that had enough signal to use, but they corrected that after I complained enough. I can't say the same thing about Sprint, or any of the GSM carriers. : :Bottom line, I like GSM for being the lesser evil. Another reason that GSM wasn't widely adopted in the US is that the original version was designed for a set of frequencies assigned to the US military. Protecting the European infrastructure manufactures is one of the reasons that's been suggested for this. In any event, the US standards are of higher quality than GSM. They've better voice quality, and make better use of the RF bandwidth. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 17:24:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E5437B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:24:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 59E296AC18; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 11:54:16 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 11:54:16 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Jason Halbert Cc: Brad Knowles , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010122115416.G3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010122104232.M93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from res02jw5@gte.net on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 12:58:54AM -0000 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 0:58:54 -0000, Jason Halbert wrote: > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 > On Monday, January 22, 2001 00:13, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 1:03:12 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: >>> At 3:55 PM -0800 2001/1/21, Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> >>>> It's a multi-system TV which does NTSC and PAL natively. No >>>> conversion is involved (unless I tell my VCR to convert from NTSC >>>> to PAL, in which case there IS degradation) >>> >>> I've got a multi-system TV, too. Trust me, there's always a >>> "native" format, and a converted format. Since most multi-system >>> video devices seem to come from Europe, they would naturally be >>> "native" PAL or SECAM format, and NTSC would be the converted >>> format. >> >> Look at the circuitry of a TV. You have one or more decoders which >> convert the incoming composite stream into RGB and sync pulses. >> Beyond that point they're as system-dependent as the monitor in front >> of you. The decoders themselves are so cheap that you'd think it >> would be easier to build multisystem VCRs. >> >>> I'm quite certain that if I hooked up a splitter from the VCR >>> or the DVD player and put the same video signal on both TVs, it >>> would look better on the true native NTSC format television than >>> they would on the one that has its own built-in NTSC/PAL converter. >> >> Well, you could try, but even then it would be a comparison between >> individual devices. > > Hmm... I'm thinking cheap is the reason I don't see a difference. I > don't have any cheap equipment at my house or the station I work for. > All my monitors are broadcast standard quality which is several cuts > above consumer. I use a broadband demodulator thats used in > broadcast. > > Maybe that's why I don't notice. This is the second reply I have had from you (the first was a private reply) where I don't know what you're referring to. Can't you interleave your reply with the text you're referring to (and remove the rest)? Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 18: 3: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC5F37B401; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2F7AE6AC18; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:32:23 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:32:23 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010122123223.K3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:29:13AM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 1:29:13 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 6:12 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: > >> Hmm? I can do that in Asia. But then there is no need to do so, >> since Asian countries like Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan cover >> every inch of their territories. (Benefit of a small country.) > > Do they cover all the mountainous areas? What about all rivers > and caves? Can you be 100% guaranteed that no matter where you were > to hike, camp, or do white-water rafting, you could always get full > and complete coverage with all of the carriers in the country? Of course! Even in bank vaults. > You certainly can't get those kinds of guarantees over here, > not even in a country like Belgium that has about the same land mass > as the state of Maryland (one of the smaller states in the US), and > with less population than the combined Washington, D.C. and > Baltimore metropolitan areas (fifteen million people, total). A more obvious comparison would be between the USA and Australia. I've noticed significantly worse GSM coverage in Silicon Valley than in Adelaide SA. >> Switch a SIM card? > > Do you really want to carry around three SIM cards, three > phone numbers, It's a question of flexibility. The phone numbers are on the cards, and you don't "constantly" switch phones. My scenario was when moving from one country to another. CDMA works in Korea, Israel and Australia; how would you get local access rates there with your CDMA phone and American NAMs? > and have to be constantly switching between them to get coverage? I haven't seen a necessity to switch at all in a single country. I know Belgium's not very big, but it still takes over an hour to drive through from North to South. > You might as well have three cheap phones, one on each network, and > be done with it. Well, do the arithmetic. > Did you know that you can't use any SMS gateway I know of to > send SMS messages to customers that are not on the same carrier as > the gateway? It works in Australia. But SMS is a toy. > I've never, ever had a problem roaming on another network if that > is what it took to get signal coverage, even if I was in an area that > was supposedly covered by my carrier. Earlier you said: > If you are in Belgium and a Proximus customer, and you're in > an area where Proximus doesn't have coverage but Mobistar or KPN > Orange do, you are screwed. If you're a Belgian customer of > Proximus and you're roaming outside the country, that's no problem > -- so long as you're not on a "Pay and go" prepaid card (they never > work outside the country of their issue). >> Bottom line, I like GSM for being the lesser evil. > > I'll take CDMA, any day. None of your arguments relate to the technical differences. > Fortunately, I won't have to wait too long before everything over > here will be CDMA, You must know something that I don't. I asked you before for details. > and by then, maybe all the stupid little national carriers will have > been consolidated into a small number of continental carriers that > are all forced to have roaming arrangements with each other, and > then we won't have any more of this incredibly stupid crap. By then, all these stupid little national carriers will have been bought out by multinational companies who will decide on roaming arrangements based only on their guesses of commercial viability. You even have that now in a country the size of Belgium. That's what you're really complaining about, after all. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 18: 5:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D79737B401 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:05:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E7DBA6AC18; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:35:18 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:35:18 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010122123518.L3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121184810.A45428@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010121184810.A45428@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 06:48:10PM -0600 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 18:48:10 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:29:13AM +0100, Brad Knowles scribbled: >> At 6:12 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: >>> Switch a SIM card? >> Do you really want to carry around three SIM cards, three phone >> numbers, and have to be constantly switching between them to get >> coverage? You might as well have three cheap phones, one on each >> network, and be done with it. > > Buy a dual-band phone? That's not the issue here. BTW, for the USA you need a three-band phone. That is, incidentally, the only kind of phone which will work just about anywhere (I'm not sure about Israel and Korea). >> But if you want to receive automated SMS messages from a network >> monitoring system, you have to make sure that the carrier for the >> gateway machine is on the same carrier your phone is, otherwise it >> simply won't work. We have investigated this matter at length, and >> it looks like the only solution we have available to us is to set up >> three separate gateways, one for each carrier within the country. >> >>> The US carriers identify via the EIN of the phone. >>> But in reality, you really have no roaming between two carriers >>> much. e.g. AT&T phones will not work with Sprint networks. >> >> But Sprint phones have to work on all the analog networks (which >> they don't own), because their coverage is so incredibly crappy. You >> can't go more than a pencils width away from the major interstates, >> or outside the largest metropolitan areas, before you're off Sprint's >> network and one one that belongs to someone else. > > It is very hard for the US to build a large-scale cell phone system > simply because it is too large a country. The real issue is competition. One large company would be able to get better coverage. >>> Bottom line, I like GSM for being the lesser evil. >> >> I'll take CDMA, any day. Fortunately, I won't have to wait too >> long before everything over here will be CDMA, and by then, maybe all >> the stupid little national carriers will have been consolidated into > > Love love 3G+W-CDMA. And where do I get one? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 18:45:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1530037B400 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:45:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup802.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.22.34]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42FBA1988D; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 03:44:58 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010121184810.A45428@peorth.iteration.net> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121184810.A45428@peorth.iteration.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 03:15:02 +0100 To: "Michael C . Wu" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:48 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: > | Do you really want to carry around three SIM cards, three phone > | numbers, and have to be constantly switching between them to get > | coverage? You might as well have three cheap phones, one on each > | network, and be done with it. > > Buy a dual-band phone? My phone is already dual-band. It covers both 1800Mhz and 900Mhz GSM frequencies. There are very few tri-band GSM phones (Ericcson has the T-26, Motorola has the Timeport), but even they can only be served on one network at a time. Outside of perhaps certain Asian countries, if you want to guarantee maximum coverage, you have to have at least one phone that is on each network in your home country during the time you are there (when you're not, you pay roaming fees). Unfortunately, there are no multiple SIM phones, unlike the multiple NAM phones you can easily get in the US. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 18:45:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2658137B402; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup802.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.22.34]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908B9184ED; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 03:45:02 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010122123223.K3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122123223.K3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 03:37:24 +0100 To: Greg Lehey From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:32 PM +1030 2001/1/22, Greg Lehey wrote: > A more obvious comparison would be between the USA and Australia. > I've noticed significantly worse GSM coverage in Silicon Valley than > in Adelaide SA. Sure, but GSM coverage in the US is already known to be crappy, so this is no real surprise. Now, have you compared GSM coverage in those areas to TDMA or CDMA coverage? > It's a question of flexibility. The phone numbers are on the cards, > and you don't "constantly" switch phones. No, but if you run into a situation where you can't get coverage on your current carrier, you'd either have to switch SIMs in the phone you have, or switch phones. Since you could leave three phones on all the time, it would be a lot easier to just put down one phone and pick up another, and never have either of them turned off which you're switching SIMs, etc.... > My scenario was when moving > from one country to another. CDMA works in Korea, Israel and > Australia; how would you get local access rates there with your CDMA > phone and American NAMs? When moving from one country to another, assuming you're not in a place like Europe where you could expect your current phone to continue to work, then obviously you'd have to buy a new phone, with a new carrier, a new service contract, etc.... I'm talking about the situation where you're out in the boonies in your home country, and you can't get coverage on your primary carrier. In this case, you have relatively few options available to you if the various carriers within that country do not have roaming arrangements between them. > I haven't seen a necessity to switch at all in a single country. I > know Belgium's not very big, but it still takes over an hour to drive > through from North to South. And about two hours East/West. Yet, there are still plenty of places in the more mountainous regions where you can't get coverage from one carrier but probably can with another, and you can also find "dead" spots within even major city areas where one provider has good coverage and another doesn't. > It works in Australia. But SMS is a toy. Like it or not, in Europe SMS is effectively the only way to be able to send pages to people, so if you're a sysadmin, your alternatives are pretty much zilch. Unfortunately, alpha-numeric pagers simply never caught on over here. Myself, I much prefer to leave my phone off all the time (turning it on only when I need it), and saving the battery as much as possible. Contrariwise, the battery in a decent alpha-numeric pager should last months. Using an alpha-numeric pager in combination with a phone also gives me the option to control when I respond to a page, and people expect that if they call my cell phone, it probably won't be on unless I'm using it or expecting a call. I just don't like handing out my cell phone number to everybody and their bloody brother. Unfortunately, in Europe there are relatively few alternatives, if you want to be able to be reached when you are not home. > None of your arguments relate to the technical differences. Perhaps not, but I can say that all the CDMA networks I know of are implemented in a manner I much prefer, in comparison to the way all GSM networks I know of. As a consumer of portable digital networking/telephony products (and not an engineer helping to design them), it's hard to tell what implementation differences are caused by the underlying technology, and what is caused by sheer asinine management stupidity. However, since the labels for these different solutions/products/technologies that I have available to me are relatively limited, I will use what I am aware of. >> Fortunately, I won't have to wait too long before everything over >> here will be CDMA, > > You must know something that I don't. I asked you before for details. 3G. It'll be a few years, but all of Europe is in the process of auctioning off 3G licenses, and this will supplant GSM. Of course, I now realize that this will be based on CDMA technology, but will probably still have the same asinine management stupidity principles applied to it, and therefore the customer experience is likely to be little different from what we have today. ;-( > By then, all these stupid little national carriers will have been > bought out by multinational companies who will decide on roaming > arrangements based only on their guesses of commercial viability. You > even have that now in a country the size of Belgium. That's what > you're really complaining about, after all. No, they're trying to see how much they can piss in each others canteens while trying to protect their own, all the while they're ignoring the train wreck that is hurtling their way. I can only hope that once they've all been bought and shredded that all the old management forons will be eating their Fried Green Swiss Alps Oysters and enjoying the taste. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 18:46:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BEB237B698 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:45:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup802.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.22.34]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8342196AC; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 03:45:11 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010122123518.L3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121184810.A45428@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122123518.L3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 03:42:45 +0100 To: Greg Lehey , "Michael C . Wu" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:35 PM +1030 2001/1/22, Greg Lehey wrote: > That's not the issue here. BTW, for the USA you need a three-band > phone. That is, incidentally, the only kind of phone which will work > just about anywhere (I'm not sure about Israel and Korea). Uhh, I think you need more than that. Let's count: AMPS/NAMPS US TDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) US CDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) US GSM (1900Mhz) European GSM (900Mhz/1800Mhz) To which you will be able to add W-CDMA, with the advent of the 3G networks. Of course, this doesn't begin to address the needs for analog coverage outside the US -- this is just a list of the different technologies and frequencies of which I am personally acquainted. I'd love to see this list get expanded. > The real issue is competition. One large company would be able to get > better coverage. Coverage is extremely expensive to build. It's much cheaper to buy. And even then, you don't really try to dot the entire country side with a tower in each and every square mile (maybe every 1/10th of a square mile in cities), you just don't bother trying to put up antennas in the less populated areas, and you live with the fact that 98% coverage is good enough and the rest of the people can just piss off. >> Love love 3G+W-CDMA. > > And where do I get one? Damn good question. I wanna know, too. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 19:10:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791F837B400 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:09:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4C6FA575AB; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 21:10:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 21:10:08 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Brad Knowles Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010121211008.A45892@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Brad Knowles , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121184810.A45428@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122123518.L3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:42:45AM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:42:45AM +0100, Brad Knowles scribbled: | At 12:35 PM +1030 2001/1/22, Greg Lehey wrote: | | > That's not the issue here. BTW, for the USA you need a three-band | > phone. That is, incidentally, the only kind of phone which will work | > just about anywhere (I'm not sure about Israel and Korea). | | Uhh, I think you need more than that. Let's count: | | AMPS/NAMPS | US TDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) | US CDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) | US GSM (1900Mhz) US 1900 and 900 | European GSM (900Mhz/1800Mhz) Asian GSM 900/1800 Greg is right, you only need a tri-band phone to roam across all the world's GSM networks. However, usually the tri-band phones are ugly and big. Having a dual-band phone will work well enough for anyone. Simply because you have at least 900mhz running. | To which you will be able to add W-CDMA, with the advent of the | 3G networks. Of course, this doesn't begin to address the needs for | analog coverage outside the US -- this is just a list of the | different technologies and frequencies of which I am personally | acquainted. I'd love to see this list get expanded. Pfft, who cares about analog? 8) | > The real issue is competition. One large company would be able to get | > better coverage. | | Coverage is extremely expensive to build. It's much cheaper to | buy. And even then, you don't really try to dot the entire country | side with a tower in each and every square mile (maybe every 1/10th | of a square mile in cities), you just don't bother trying to put up | antennas in the less populated areas, and you live with the fact that | 98% coverage is good enough and the rest of the people can just piss | off. I remember calling my mother in Taiwan to say hello when hiking in Japan with my GSM phone from Taiwan. | >> Love love 3G+W-CDMA. | > | > And where do I get one? | | Damn good question. I wanna know, too. The only working 3G W-CDMA network is in Japan. It will be at least two years before other countries have that. Even then, the Asian countries will switch over long before Europe and America. You can find out more about W-CDMA and 3G phones in the Artech House Publishers' "Mobile Communications Series" of books. I have the entire collection. :) There are less regulation and much greater demand for the technology in Asia. In many Asian countries, (.jp, .tw, .hk, .sg), it averages to two or three cell phones for the entire population. And there are less regulations^Wbureaucracy about this kind of things. The fact that governments in Asian countries subsidize or even own the mobile networks helps a lot too. :P -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 19:18:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0268437B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 069476AC18; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:48:07 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:48:07 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010122134807.O3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122123223.K3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:37:24AM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 3:37:24 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:32 PM +1030 2001/1/22, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> A more obvious comparison would be between the USA and Australia. >> I've noticed significantly worse GSM coverage in Silicon Valley than >> in Adelaide SA. > > Sure, but GSM coverage in the US is already known to be crappy, > so this is no real surprise. Now, have you compared GSM coverage in > those areas to TDMA or CDMA coverage? Sorry, I phrased that wrongly. I was comparing the mobile phone coverage without intending to refer to a specific system. >> It's a question of flexibility. The phone numbers are on the cards, >> and you don't "constantly" switch phones. > > No, but if you run into a situation where you can't get coverage > on your current carrier, you'd either have to switch SIMs in the > phone you have, or switch phones. Since you could leave three phones > on all the time, it would be a lot easier to just put down one phone > and pick up another, and never have either of them turned off which > you're switching SIMs, etc.... That depends on the situation. What I've seen is that some carriers have better coverage than others; I've seen very few cases where the "good" carrier has significant holes which could be filled by a different carrier. >> My scenario was when >> moving from one country to another. CDMA works in Korea, Israel >> and Australia; how would you get local access rates there with >> your CDMA phone and American NAMs? > > When moving from one country to another, assuming you're not in a > place like Europe where you could expect your current phone to > continue to work, then obviously you'd have to buy a new phone, with > a new carrier, a new service contract, etc.... A SIM is a whole lot cheaper. If I go to China or Malaysia on business, I can borrow a local SIM from the office and use that. Alternatively I can use prepaid SIMs. > I'm talking about the situation where you're out in the > boonies in your home country, and you can't get coverage on your > primary carrier. In this case, you have relatively few options > available to you if the various carriers within that country do not > have roaming arrangements between them. Well, in my home country there's exactly one carrier who services the Outback worth talking about, and that's Telstra. The situation is different from the USA, where there are a number of regional providers. I think the USA may be the only country in the world to have regional providers. But that's not the issue. >> It works in Australia. But SMS is a toy. > > Like it or not, in Europe SMS is effectively the only way to be > able to send pages to people, so if you're a sysadmin, your > alternatives are pretty much zilch. Voice mail? Email? SMS is limited to about 240 characters. > Unfortunately, alpha-numeric pagers simply never caught on over > here. I don't see anything unfortunate about that. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 19:19:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80EE537B401 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0CA33575AB; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 21:19:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 21:19:15 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010121211915.B45892@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Greg Lehey , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122123223.K3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010122123223.K3066@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 12:32:23PM +1030 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 12:32:23PM +1030, Greg Lehey scribbled: | On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 1:29:13 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: | > At 6:12 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: | > | >> Hmm? I can do that in Asia. But then there is no need to do so, | >> since Asian countries like Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan cover | >> every inch of their territories. (Benefit of a small country.) | > | > Do they cover all the mountainous areas? What about all rivers | > and caves? Can you be 100% guaranteed that no matter where you were | > to hike, camp, or do white-water rafting, you could always get full | > and complete coverage with all of the carriers in the country? | | Of course! Even in bank vaults. Why! We even have coverage in submarines. Of course, the data rate may be a little slow and the conversation a "bit" laggy, but all is well. 8) | > You certainly can't get those kinds of guarantees over here, | > not even in a country like Belgium that has about the same land mass | > as the state of Maryland (one of the smaller states in the US), and | > with less population than the combined Washington, D.C. and | > Baltimore metropolitan areas (fifteen million people, total). | | A more obvious comparison would be between the USA and Australia. | I've noticed significantly worse GSM coverage in Silicon Valley than | in Adelaide SA. | | >> Switch a SIM card? | > | > Do you really want to carry around three SIM cards, three | > phone numbers, | | It's a question of flexibility. The phone numbers are on the cards, | and you don't "constantly" switch phones. My scenario was when moving | from one country to another. CDMA works in Korea, Israel and | Australia; how would you get local access rates there with your CDMA | phone and American NAMs? I can also transfer my phone book from one GSM phone to another via the SIM card. Can't really do that with PCS. | > and have to be constantly switching between them to get coverage? | | I haven't seen a necessity to switch at all in a single country. I | know Belgium's not very big, but it still takes over an hour to drive | through from North to South. So it really would be cheap to just change Belgium, but the problem with European countries getting in sync with each other.... -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 19:20: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE1FA37B402 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 27FDD6AC18; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:49:46 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:49:46 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010122134946.P3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121184810.A45428@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122123518.L3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:42:45AM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 3:42:45 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:35 PM +1030 2001/1/22, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> That's not the issue here. BTW, for the USA you need a three-band >> phone. That is, incidentally, the only kind of phone which will work >> just about anywhere (I'm not sure about Israel and Korea). > > Uhh, I think you need more than that. Let's count: > > AMPS/NAMPS > US TDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) > US CDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) > US GSM (1900Mhz) > European GSM (900Mhz/1800Mhz) I'm not saying "use *every* technology". Take GSM there and you have 900, 1800 and 1900 MHz. > To which you will be able to add W-CDMA, with the advent of > the 3G networks. Of course, this doesn't begin to address the needs > for analog coverage outside the US -- this is just a list of the > different technologies and frequencies of which I am personally > acquainted. I'd love to see this list get expanded. Where else are analogue technologies still in use? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 19:27:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211A337B402 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AAE356AC1A; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:56:50 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:56:50 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Michael C . Wu" , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010122135650.Q3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121184810.A45428@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122123518.L3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010121211008.A45892@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010121211008.A45892@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 09:10:08PM -0600 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 21:10:08 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:42:45AM +0100, Brad Knowles scribbled: >> At 12:35 PM +1030 2001/1/22, Greg Lehey wrote: >> >>> That's not the issue here. BTW, for the USA you need a three-band >>> phone. That is, incidentally, the only kind of phone which will work >>> just about anywhere (I'm not sure about Israel and Korea). >> >> Uhh, I think you need more than that. Let's count: >> >> AMPS/NAMPS >> US TDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) >> US CDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) >> US GSM (1900Mhz) > > US 1900 and 900 > >> European GSM (900Mhz/1800Mhz) > > Asian GSM 900/1800 > > Greg is right, you only need a tri-band phone to roam across all > the world's GSM networks. However, usually the tri-band phones > are ugly and big. I haven't seen any big ones. The one I have is ugly, but it's smaller than my Nokia. > Having a dual-band phone will work well enough for anyone. Simply > because you have at least 900mhz running. Nope, it's no good for me. The rental costs for a single visit to the USA would pay for the phone and the whole year's phone costs. >>>> Love love 3G+W-CDMA. >>> >>> And where do I get one? >> >> Damn good question. I wanna know, too. > > The only working 3G W-CDMA network is in Japan. It will be at least > two years before other countries have that. Even then, > the Asian countries will switch over long before Europe and America. > > You can find out more about W-CDMA and 3G phones in > the Artech House Publishers' "Mobile Communications Series" of books. > I have the entire collection. :) I've been looking at web pages, and it doesn't sound to me that 3G is a new transmission technology, just something that climbs on the back of one. Is there any reason why it should be tied to CDMA and not to GSM? > There are less regulation and much greater demand for the technology > in Asia. In many Asian countries, (.jp, .tw, .hk, .sg), it averages > to two or three cell phones for the entire population. Nonsense, I've seen dozens of mobile phones in cramped places. I'd guess that just about everyone has one. Are you thinking of Bhutan or Aden, maybe? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 20: 9:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F176037B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA69326; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 05:09:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Jan 2001 05:09:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brad Knowles's message of "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:29:13 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > Did you know that you can't use any SMS gateway I know of to send > SMS messages to customers that are not on the same carrier as the > gateway? That's simply not true - if it's the case in Belgium, then it's a simple case of greed, incompetence or a combination of both. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 20:13:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from south.delamere.gsoft.com.au (genesi2.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.104.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6553D37B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (old.delamere.gsoft.com.au [203.38.248.145]) by south.delamere.gsoft.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f0M4D1D30160; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:43:02 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:43:00 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , "Michael C . Wu" , Brad Knowles Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-Jan-01 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Brad Knowles writes: > > Did you know that you can't use any SMS gateway I know of to send > > SMS messages to customers that are not on the same carrier as the > > gateway? > That's simply not true - if it's the case in Belgium, then it's a > simple case of greed, incompetence or a combination of both. The GSM providers in Australia used to allow you to use any SMS gateway, but since SMS has become a big money spinner for them, they have clamped down and only allow you to use theirs. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 20:21: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.kt.home.ne.jp (ha2.rdc1.kt.home.ne.jp [203.165.9.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22F437B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from daemon.local.idaemons.org ([203.165.161.10]) by mail.rdc1.kt.home.ne.jp (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <20010122042038.UJLC29706.mail.rdc1.kt.home.ne.jp@daemon.local.idaemons.org>; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:20:38 -0800 Received: by daemon.local.idaemons.org (8.11.1/3.7W) id f0M4KcC71403; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:20:38 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:20:37 +0900 Message-ID: <861ytwfca2.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org> From: "Akinori MUSHA" To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Clive Lin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/games Makefile ports/games/qkmj Makefile distinfo pkg-comment pkg-descr pkg-message pkg-plist In-Reply-To: <20010121112753.A42618@peorth.iteration.net> References: <200101211708.f0LH8JB67816@freefall.freebsd.org> <20010121112753.A42618@peorth.iteration.net> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.5.4 (Smooth) SEMI/1.14.2 (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Daish=F2?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ji?=) FLIM/1.14.2 (Yagi-Nishiguchi) APEL/10.2 MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 12) (Channel Islands) (i386--freebsd) Organization: Associated I. Daemons X-PGP-Public-Key: finger knu@FreeBSD.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: 081D 099C 1705 861D 4B70 B04A 920B EFC7 9FD9 E1EE MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.2 - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Daish=F2ji=22?=) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At Sun, 21 Jan 2001 11:27:54 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > From attending BSDCon2000, I was surprised at the number of > non-Asians who knew how to play ma2jiang4. Well, it is Chinese > New Year in the upcoming week. And playing ma2jiang4 can be > considered a tradition. *hint hint* We play it by the different rules in Japan, and I'm curious about the int'l rules. I think I should give qkmj a try... -- / /__ __ Akinori.org / MUSHA.org / ) ) ) ) / FreeBSD.org / Ruby-lang.org Akinori MUSHA aka / (_ / ( (__( @ iDaemons.org / and.or.jp "We're only at home when we're on the run, on the wing, on the fly" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 20:24:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AEA37B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:24:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA69410; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 05:24:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , "Michael C . Wu" , Brad Knowles Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Jan 2001 05:24:02 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Daniel O'Connor"'s message of "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:43:00 +1030 (CST)" Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Daniel O'Connor" writes: > On 22-Jan-01 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Brad Knowles writes: > > > Did you know that you can't use any SMS gateway I know of to send > > > SMS messages to customers that are not on the same carrier as the > > > gateway? > > That's simply not true - if it's the case in Belgium, then it's a > > simple case of greed, incompetence or a combination of both. > The GSM providers in Australia used to allow you to use any SMS > gateway, but since SMS has become a big money spinner for them, they > have clamped down and only allow you to use theirs. We must mean different things by "SMS gateway"... If Brad meant "gateways to which an SMS content provider can connect to send SMS messages to end-users", then I stand by my claim that there is no technical obstacle to sending messages to one carrier's customers through another carrier's gateway. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 20:31:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C01CA37B400 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 94B3F575AB; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 22:31:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 22:31:31 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010121223131.C45892@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Greg Lehey , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121184810.A45428@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122123518.L3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010121211008.A45892@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122135650.Q3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010122135650.Q3066@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:56:50PM +1030 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:56:50PM +1030, Greg Lehey scribbled: | On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 21:10:08 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: | > You can find out more about W-CDMA and 3G phones in | > the Artech House Publishers' "Mobile Communications Series" of books. | > I have the entire collection. :) | | I've been looking at web pages, and it doesn't sound to me that 3G is | a new transmission technology, just something that climbs on the back | of one. Is there any reason why it should be tied to CDMA and not to | GSM? It is not a very new technology. However, I should point out to you that GSM is a totally different layer from CDMA. CDMA handles the transmission, GSM is more like our authentification scheme. | > There are less regulation and much greater demand for the technology | > in Asia. In many Asian countries, (.jp, .tw, .hk, .sg), it averages | > to two or three cell phones for the entire population. | | Nonsense, I've seen dozens of mobile phones in cramped places. I'd | guess that just about everyone has one. Are you thinking of Bhutan or | Aden, maybe? I know it is true for Japan and Taiwan at least. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 20:33:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2236B37B400; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:33:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BCD83575AB; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 22:33:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 22:33:41 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Akinori MUSHA Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Clive Lin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/games Makefile ports/games/qkmj Makefile distinfo pkg-comment pkg-descr pkg-message pkg-plist Message-ID: <20010121223341.D45892@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <200101211708.f0LH8JB67816@freefall.freebsd.org> <20010121112753.A42618@peorth.iteration.net> <861ytwfca2.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <861ytwfca2.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org>; from knu@iDaemons.org on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:20:37PM +0900 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:20:37PM +0900, Akinori MUSHA scribbled: | At Sun, 21 Jan 2001 11:27:54 -0600, | Michael C . Wu wrote: | > From attending BSDCon2000, I was surprised at the number of | > non-Asians who knew how to play ma2jiang4. Well, it is Chinese | > New Year in the upcoming week. And playing ma2jiang4 can be | > considered a tradition. *hint hint* | | We play it by the different rules in Japan, and I'm curious about the | int'l rules. I think I should give qkmj a try... Do you have 13 pieces or 16 pieces for each person? I think the difference is minimal between these two. I recall showing my mother how to play by the Japanese rules in a Japanese video game for the original Nintendo. She had no trouble picking it up. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 20:35:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C1A37B401 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA95930; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 22:35:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 22:35:15 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) In-Reply-To: <20010122135650.Q3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: :On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 21:10:08 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: :> On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:42:45AM +0100, Brad Knowles scribbled: :>> At 12:35 PM +1030 2001/1/22, Greg Lehey wrote: :>> :>>> That's not the issue here. BTW, for the USA you need a three-band :>>> phone. That is, incidentally, the only kind of phone which will work :>>> just about anywhere (I'm not sure about Israel and Korea). :>> :>> Uhh, I think you need more than that. Let's count: :>> :>> AMPS/NAMPS :>> US TDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) :>> US CDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) :>> US GSM (1900Mhz) :> :> US 1900 and 900 The US is 1900 and 800, not 900. The 900 Mhz freqs used by GSM in the rest of the world are the property of the US military. To be honest, I'm not sure there are any AMPS band GSM carriers in the US. Maybe Bell South DCS? :I've been looking at web pages, and it doesn't sound to me that 3G is :a new transmission technology, just something that climbs on the back :of one. Is there any reason why it should be tied to CDMA and not to :GSM? Yes. CDMA has much better use of bandwidth. All users of a CDMA channel use it simultanously, not time multiplexed. The data travelling across the air interface are encoded with a walsh code, which allows the receiver to pick out each data stream, because some mathmattecian was bloody clever. I'm unable to find a good web reference right at the moment, but CDMA is clearly a better choice than any of the TDMA solutions. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 20:37:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29B837B401 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 54B606A913; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:07:29 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:07:29 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: David Scheidt Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010122150729.S3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010122135650.Q3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 10:35:15PM -0600 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 22:35:15 -0600, David Scheidt wrote: > On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> I've been looking at web pages, and it doesn't sound to me that 3G is >> a new transmission technology, just something that climbs on the back >> of one. Is there any reason why it should be tied to CDMA and not to >> GSM? > > Yes. CDMA has much better use of bandwidth. That's not a reason why 3G can't work on GSM. > All users of a CDMA channel use it simultanously, not time > multiplexed. Well, there are bandwidth considerations anyway. There's just less waste. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 21 20:53: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from south.delamere.gsoft.com.au (genesi2.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.104.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0BD37B401; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (old.delamere.gsoft.com.au [203.38.248.145]) by south.delamere.gsoft.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f0M4qQD34212; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:22:26 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:22:25 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Cc: Brad Knowles Cc: Brad Knowles , "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-Jan-01 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > The GSM providers in Australia used to allow you to use any SMS > > gateway, but since SMS has become a big money spinner for them, they > > have clamped down and only allow you to use theirs. > We must mean different things by "SMS gateway"... If Brad meant > "gateways to which an SMS content provider can connect to send SMS > messages to end-users", then I stand by my claim that there is no > technical obstacle to sending messages to one carrier's customers > through another carrier's gateway. Well, true, but only recently have Australian operators gotten their asses into gear and organised this :-/ --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 0:25:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC6937B402 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA27465 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:23:34 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:23:31 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Parroty stuff Message-ID: <20010122192329.A1594@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A month ago, a baby galah (rose breasted cockatoo for those in the USA) joined my household. They are supposed to be able to learn to say a few words, but Blue is a bit young yet. Last night I started reading a copy of K&R that I bought on the weekend, and by morning I had my hello world working. Tonight when I came home from work, to my surprise Blue greeted me with "Hello ". Do you think there's some connection? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 1:18:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2754B37B401 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 01:18:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24938 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:18:05 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200101220918.WAA24938@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary / FreshPorts To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:18:05 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Parroty stuff Reply-To: dan@langille.org In-reply-to: <20010122192329.A1594@welearn.com.au> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22 Jan 2001, at 19:23, Sue Blake wrote: > A month ago, a baby galah (rose breasted cockatoo for those in the USA) > joined my household. They are supposed to be able to learn to say a few > words, but Blue is a bit young yet. Joined how? It moved in and adopted you? You "obtained" it? > Last night I started reading a copy of K&R that I bought on the weekend, > and by morning I had my hello world working. WOOT! > Tonight when I came home from work, to my surprise Blue greeted me > with "Hello ". Clearly it's reading and understanding your code. > Do you think there's some connection? No comment. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 3:47:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D1437B402 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 03:47:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup561.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.21.49]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F8E01B6FC; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:45:38 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010122134946.P3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121184810.A45428@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122123518.L3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010122134946.P3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:36:43 +0100 To: Greg Lehey From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:49 PM +1030 2001/1/22, Greg Lehey wrote: > I'm not saying "use *every* technology". Take GSM there and you have > 900, 1800 and 1900 MHz. But as I have repeatedly said, GSM really just isn't any kind of a real player in the US. It is not today, nor will it ever likely be. In the US, GSM coverage is limited to a few of the largest cities on just a single carrier, and that's about it. If you want to get coverage elsewhere in the US, you have to use other technologies, such as AMPS/NAMPS, TDMA, and/or CDMA. > Where else are analogue technologies still in use? They're still in use over here. If you can find an old analog phone, they'll still work. I don't know how much longer the old analog network will remain in place, but for now it is still available. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 3:48:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E389437B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 03:48:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup561.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.21.49]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9491A1B6EB; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:45:35 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010121211008.A45892@peorth.iteration.net> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010121184810.A45428@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122123518.L3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010121211008.A45892@peorth.iteration.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:32:21 +0100 To: "Michael C . Wu" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:10 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: > Greg is right, you only need a tri-band phone to roam across all > the world's GSM networks. However, usually the tri-band phones > are ugly and big. Having a dual-band phone will work well enough > for anyone. Simply because you have at least 900mhz running. Right, but we also know that GSM coverage in the US is incredibly crappy (only a handful of the very largest cities), so this is basically worthless anyway. If you want to be able to get coverage most anywhere in the world, you have to have 1800/900Mhz GSM for Europe and Asia (there are plenty of places in Europe where the 900Mhz networks don't have coverage or are saturated, and the only way you'll get coverage is by having 1800Mhz as well), and then you need AMPS/NAMPS plus either TDMA or CDMA to get coverage for the US. And you just have to hope that your carrier has sufficient roaming agreements with the other carriers for wherever you might go. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 4: 3:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DF037B404; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 04:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup561.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.21.49]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62738186EF; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:45:42 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:42:29 +0100 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Daniel O'Connor" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , "Michael C . Wu" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:24 AM +0100 2001/1/22, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > We must mean different things by "SMS gateway"... If Brad meant > "gateways to which an SMS content provider can connect to send SMS > messages to end-users", then I stand by my claim that there is no > technical obstacle to sending messages to one carrier's customers > through another carrier's gateway. There may very well not be any technical obstacles to using any SMS gateway of your choice, the only obstacles may be administrative or political in nature -- just like the complete and total lack of ability to roam on other network within your home country. Nevertheless, the practical result is that, at least in Belgium, you can only use the SMS gateway provided to you by your GSM carrier. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 4:19:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE5CC37B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 04:19:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14KfwQ-0006EC-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:19:22 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0MCJK103097; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:19:20 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:19:20 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hungarian notation Message-ID: <20010122121920.A3056@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200101190333.UAA27007@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 12:30:49PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | Hungarian notation is not a sufficient feature to guarantee that | this will happen, but it is a stylistic aid that programers can use The way I understand it, the hungarian notation is most useful for the original writer who hasn't looked at his code for a while, or a maintenance programmer. When reading the code, rather than flipping back to the declaration block repeatedly, you know what each variable is by its name. jcm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonathon McKitrick ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 4:58:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D635937B698 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 04:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14KgYT-0006uy-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:58:41 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0MCwdu03317 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:58:39 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:58:39 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: good example kernel code Message-ID: <20010122125839.A3300@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have been studying 'man style' and looking through kernel code. Does anyone know of any code in the kernel that is about the best example of well-written, correct, secure, properly styled code? Thanks, jcm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonathon McKitrick ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 9: 6:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF43C37B69B for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14KkPs-000Bnk-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:06:04 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0MH60U04914 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:06:00 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:06:00 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: silly C style question Message-ID: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a trivial question, but I get hung up on details, so I'm gonna ask anyway. ;) When using opening and closing braces for a loop or other control structure, most coders put the opening brace on the same line as the decision statement. It seems to me, using it in more of a block format would make the code easier to read. Does this make sense? if (0 == i) { foo(i); bar(i); } versus if (0 == i) { foo(i); bar(i); } jcm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonathon McKitrick ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 9:38:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (grouter.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D7337B69C for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from grondar.za (root@gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0MHc1I61580; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:38:04 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200101221738.f0MHc1I61580@gratis.grondar.za> To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Parroty stuff References: <20010122192329.A1594@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20010122192329.A1594@welearn.com.au> ; from Sue Blake "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:23:31 +1100." Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:38:14 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Tonight when I came home from work, to my surprise Blue greeted me > with "Hello ". Are you sure that is a budgie and not a compiler? M -- Mark Murray Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 9:44: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (grouter.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C011C37B698 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:43:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from grondar.za (root@gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0MHetI61613; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:40:55 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200101221740.f0MHetI61613@gratis.grondar.za> To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: good example kernel code References: <20010122125839.A3300@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20010122125839.A3300@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> ; from j mckitrick "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:58:39 GMT." Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:41:08 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have been studying 'man style' and looking through kernel code. Does > anyone know of any code in the kernel that is about the best example of > well-written, correct, secure, properly styled code? This is a religious one. Many programmers claim theirs is the "one, true style(9)", and many other will disagree. Careful what you ask, you may be answered :-). M -- Mark Murray Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 9:46:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (grouter.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C0B37B6B3 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from grondar.za (root@gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0MHh7I61638; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:43:13 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200101221743.f0MHh7I61638@gratis.grondar.za> To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silly C style question References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> ; from j mckitrick "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:06:00 GMT." Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:43:19 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is a trivial question, but I get hung up on details, so I'm gonna ask > anyway. ;) OOOOOPPPPPPENNN Bikeshed! ;-) > When using opening and closing braces for a loop or other control structure, > most coders put the opening brace on the same line as the decision > statement. It seems to me, using it in more of a block format would make > the code easier to read. Does this make sense? > > if (0 == i) > { > foo(i); > bar(i); > } IMHO, this wastes one line of screen space. I only use it for functions. > versus > > if (0 == i) { > foo(i); > bar(i); > } "Classic" K&R. Allows a little more code per screen. M -- Mark Murray Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 9:55: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail44.fg.online.no (mail44-s.fg.online.no [148.122.161.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03FEE37B404 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from online.no (ti34a05-0209.dialup.online.no [130.67.71.209]) by mail44.fg.online.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18297 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:54:38 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A6C72DC.7F5F817@online.no> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:50:20 +0100 From: Tore Lund X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silly C style question References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > > This is a trivial question, but I get hung up on details, so I'm gonna ask > anyway. ;) > > When using opening and closing braces for a loop or other control structure, > most coders put the opening brace on the same line as the decision > statement. It seems to me, using it in more of a block format would make > the code easier to read. Does this make sense? > > if (0 == i) > { > foo(i); > bar(i); > } Beautiful! That's what I call *symmetry*, *style*, etc. etc. > versus > > if (0 == i) { > foo(i); > bar(i); > } Totally unreadable! Unfortunately, there is no objective way to decide which style makes the code easier to read. Take a look through the FreeBSD sources, and you may realize what sort of flame war you have just started. At least this is closer to topic than the discussion on mobile phones. -- Tore To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 10:34:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B176B37B401 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:34:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0MIaxc91107; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:36:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:36:59 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Message-ID: <20010122103659.A90890@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121155556.B75159@citusc17.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:03:12AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:03:12AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:55 PM -0800 2001/1/21, Kris Kennaway wrote: >=20 > > It's a multi-system TV which does NTSC and PAL natively. No conversion > > is involved (unless I tell my VCR to convert from NTSC to PAL, in > > which case there IS degradation) >=20 > I've got a multi-system TV, too. Trust me, there's always a=20 > "native" format, and a converted format. Since most multi-system=20 > video devices seem to come from Europe, they would naturally be=20 > "native" PAL or SECAM format, and NTSC would be the converted format. Regardless, this doesn't affect the situation I was talking about: my two independent subjects were comparing the quality of PAL video on my TV (which is actually sub-optimal quality because of very slight display artefacts in the picture tube) with their experience of NTSC on presumably similar-quality NTSC equipment. Kris -- NOTE: To fetch an updated copy of my GPG key which has not expired, finger kris@FreeBSD.org --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6bH3LWry0BWjoQKURArSKAKDDdORW8omvLoctFdjO867vxrL+fgCg5nZX sNvy5cYG5g//8mcj16j+2ZI= =8UF6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 10:41:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 299D837B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:40:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup561.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.21.49]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB131490C; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:14:19 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:13:57 +0100 To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: silly C style question Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:06 PM +0000 2001/1/22, j mckitrick wrote: > When using opening and closing braces for a loop or other control structure, > most coders put the opening brace on the same line as the decision > statement. Right, that's typical C style, the sort of which you can find in K&R, etc.... > It seems to me, using it in more of a block format would make > the code easier to read. Does this make sense? That's typical Pascal style. I much prefer it myself, but I've never found any style guide anywhere that actually recommended it over C style. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 10:47: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A1B837B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1B97D239A42; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:46:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:46:46 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Duncan Barclay Cc: Tony Finch , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: US Invasion by a UK FreeBSDer Message-ID: <20010122104646.B37403@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20010117131158.G97038@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dmlb@dmlb.org on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 12:02:02AM -0000 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-01-19 00:02 -0000, Duncan Barclay wrote: > >> >> Gregory Sutter wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >We could also have an impromptu BSD enthusiasts' meeting somewhere > >> >> >in SOMA; perhaps the 21st Amendment (2nd and Brannan) would be a > >> >> >good place to go for food, drinks, and a place to talk on one of > >> >> >those weeknights. > > Shall we say Tuesday then. You say the food is good so lets eat there, > say meet at 6.30? Sounds good to me. To summarize: BSD enthusiasts' meeting 21st Amendment 2nd St at Brannan St San Francisco, CA, US Tues, Feb 6, 2001, 18:30. > I also might be able to make the BAWUG on Thursay, my commitment will > finsih about 8pm. Is the Marriot far from whereever the BAWUG is? I don't know where the Marriott is, but BAWUG is at 1st and Folsom. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter I got a 1GHz Athlon for my girlfriend. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org Good trade! http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 10:50:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.registeredsite.com (mail5.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DAC837B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:49:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.threespace.com (mail.threespace.com [216.247.134.44]) by mail5.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0MIng104067 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:49:46 -0500 Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com [24.21.224.204] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A0BF16010142; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:49:35 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010122134036.01790960@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:48:10 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: hungarian notation In-Reply-To: <20010122121920.A3056@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200101190333.UAA27007@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:19 AM 1/22/2001, j mckitrick wrote: >| Hungarian notation is not a sufficient feature to guarantee that >| this will happen, but it is a stylistic aid that programers can use > >The way I understand it, the hungarian notation is most useful for the >original writer who hasn't looked at his code for a while, or a maintenance >programmer. When reading the code, rather than flipping back to the >declaration block repeatedly, you know what each variable is by its name. This savings in time alone is enough to make me think it's worthwhile. But it also has the advantage that you get to reuse the same variable name on different types without confusion. For instance, intBuffer and charBuffer are two completely different (but perhaps related) variables. This sort of thing becomes very valuable in a language like Visual Basic where a group of different controls may have related function (e.g., lblZipCode, cmdZipCode, and txtZipCode). --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 11:16:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9021F37B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 11:16:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (rh10.bfm.org [216.127.220.203]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:18:33 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010122131649.009c9730@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:16:49 -0600 To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: silly C style question In-Reply-To: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 17:06 22-01-2001 +0000, j mckitrick wrote: >When using opening and closing braces for a loop or other control structure, >most coders put the opening brace on the same line as the decision >statement. It seems to me, using it in more of a block format would make >the code easier to read. Does this make sense? I am not sure that it makes it easier to read (since the indentation clearly shows where the block starts and ends), but if it makes sense to you, by all means, use it. Personally, I prefer the K&R style because it keeps all the logic on one line and, as someone else pointed out, it saves one line of display space. But the whole point of C style is that you develop your own. Not every painter is a cubist, some are dadaists (and most are neither). That does not make them better--or worse--just different. Cheers, Adam --- Whiz Kid Technomagic - brand name computers for less. See http://www.whizkidtech.net/pcwarehouse/ for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 12:21:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5950A37B6A9; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:21:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.255.97.81]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010122202127.TOUU10171.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:21:27 +0000 Received: (from scott@localhost) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02650; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:20:53 GMT (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <20010122202052.17979@localhost> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:20:52 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Brad Knowles , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , "Michael C . Wu" Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Brad Knowles on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 12:42:29PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 12:42:29PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > Nevertheless, the practical result is that, at least in Belgium, > you can only use the SMS gateway provided to you by your GSM carrier. In what way is that a problem? Surely the issue is being able to *send* an SMS to numbers on another network. In the UK at least, all of the GSM carriers will deliver SMS to any UK GSM number and (for most networks and service plans) any overseas GSM number. AFAIK, no network here will let subscribers from another network send SMS through their SMSC -- hardly surprising, as they provide the SMSC for the benefit of their own customers, not those on competitor networks. Think ISPs and SMTP relays; the principle is the same. Perhaps in Belgium you can only SMS people on your own network (analogous to only being able to email people who use the same ISP as you)? I agree that would suck. Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 14:45:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC1737B6B0; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA73754; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:44:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Scott Mitchell Cc: Brad Knowles , "Daniel O'Connor" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , "Michael C . Wu" Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) References: <20010122202052.17979@localhost> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Jan 2001 23:44:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: Scott Mitchell's message of "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:20:52 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Norwegian GSM operators allow SMS content providers to send messages through their SMSC to competitors' customers; they have SMSC peering set up so that messages to other operators' customers are forwarded to those operators' SMSCs. AFAIK, this has been the case for as long as there have been independent SMS content providers in Norway. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 15: 1:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4559337B6B4 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:01:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010122222048.TIMT18404.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:20:48 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14KpKR-0000h4-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:20:47 +0000 Content-Length: 1374 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010122104646.B37403@klapaucius.zer0.org> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:20:47 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Gregory Sutter Subject: Re: US Invasion by a UK FreeBSDer Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Tony Finch Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi See you there! Duncan On 22-Jan-01 Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2001-01-19 00:02 -0000, Duncan Barclay wrote: >> >> >> Gregory Sutter wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> >We could also have an impromptu BSD enthusiasts' meeting somewhere >> >> >> >in SOMA; perhaps the 21st Amendment (2nd and Brannan) would be a >> >> >> >good place to go for food, drinks, and a place to talk on one of >> >> >> >those weeknights. >> >> Shall we say Tuesday then. You say the food is good so lets eat there, >> say meet at 6.30? > > Sounds good to me. To summarize: > > > BSD enthusiasts' meeting > > 21st Amendment > 2nd St at Brannan St > San Francisco, CA, US > > Tues, Feb 6, 2001, 18:30. > > >> I also might be able to make the BAWUG on Thursay, my commitment will >> finsih about 8pm. Is the Marriot far from whereever the BAWUG is? > > I don't know where the Marriott is, but BAWUG is at 1st and Folsom. > > Greg > -- > Gregory S. Sutter I got a 1GHz Athlon for my girlfriend. > mailto:gsutter@zer0.org Good trade! > http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ > hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD > --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 15: 8:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E7D37B6BB; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010122225130.MMAC285.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:51:30 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14Kpo9-0000l6-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:51:29 +0000 Content-Length: 2530 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:51:29 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , Michael C.Wu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Jan-01 Brad Knowles wrote: > At 4:54 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: > >> I ask the same questions about why Americans not using >> GSM but PCS cell phones. (FYI, the reason for using PCS in the U.S. >> was a pure political reason, none other than America wanting >> to "lead" the industry. :) ) > > Qualcomm invented Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA), the > superior digital cell phone technology that is the basis for all 3G > projects around the world. CDMA is supplanting TDMA in the US, > because it allows you to carry more calls in the same amount of > frequency bandwidth than TDMA, the previous digital technology. CDMA as a physical layer technology does not allow significantly more calls in the same bandwidth as TDMA. However, what is does do is allow a greater efficiency of bandwidth*time*location/range. This is important as networks are becoming more congested. 3G is not just about higher data rates to users - for example GPRS will do 384kb/s just as 3G will (3G has 2Mb/s for stationary users close to a local basestation, i.e. in a building). What 3G gives operators is greater flexibility in handling calls. Remember that the operators define the standards to serve their needs. > Anybody that has to replace TDMA technology with CDMA technology > winds up pretty much completely replacing the entire network they > built, which is why it's still taking time to make this conversion in > the US. However, Europe made the "leap" to TDMA technology in GSM, > before CDMA existed -- standard AMPS/NAMPS style analog cell phone > technology had been stretched beyond its limits, and they had no > choice but to go digital. Not correct for 3G, everything above the RLC - Radio Link Contoller layer is the same as GSM networks. This is how basestations connect to switching centres and all the location tracking stuff. If anything IS-95 and IS-95b networks have to change more than GSM ones. GSM networks change basestations, IS-95 change basestations and trunks. > Therefore, pretty much all European companies will end up ripping > out their entire set of existing TDMA-based GSM networks and > replacing them with brand-new CDMA-based 3G equipment. It's on continual replacement anyway. This is not a huge issue. Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 15: 9:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF57A37B6BC; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010122225416.MMSK285.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:54:16 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14Kpqq-0000lA-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:54:16 +0000 Content-Length: 1996 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:54:16 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Greg Lehey Subject: RE: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , Michael C.Wu , Brad Knowles Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-Jan-01 Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 0:46:38 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: >> At 4:54 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: >> >>> I ask the same questions about why Americans not using >>> GSM but PCS cell phones. (FYI, the reason for using PCS in the U.S. >>> was a pure political reason, none other than America wanting >>> to "lead" the industry. :) ) >> >> Qualcomm invented Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA), the >> superior digital cell phone technology that is the basis for all 3G >> projects around the world. CDMA is supplanting TDMA in the US, >> because it allows you to carry more calls in the same amount of >> frequency bandwidth than TDMA, the previous digital technology. >> >> Anybody that has to replace TDMA technology with CDMA technology >> winds up pretty much completely replacing the entire network they >> built, which is why it's still taking time to make this conversion in >> the US. > > Hmm. This doesn't tie in with what I've been told by people in the > business of developing the equipment. According to my information, > the reason they took CDMA in the US was because it *was* easier to > upgrade from analogue to TDMA to CDMA. > >> However, Europe made the "leap" to TDMA technology in GSM, before >> CDMA existed -- standard AMPS/NAMPS style analog cell phone >> technology had been stretched beyond its limits, and they had no >> choice but to go digital. When Europe was developing GSM back in the early 80's CDMA was not a proven technology for cellular and it is locked up by too many patents with one single company (PS Guess why Ericsson bought significant chunks of Qualcomm a while back). BTW The company I work for has jsut joined the 4G definition groups ;-). Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 15:11: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E4A37B6BB; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010122230050.MOJV285.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:00:50 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14KpxB-0000lj-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:00:49 +0000 Content-Length: 1700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:00:49 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , Michael C.Wu , Greg Lehey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-Jan-01 Brad Knowles wrote: >> It works in Australia. But SMS is a toy. > > Like it or not, in Europe SMS is effectively the only way to be > able to send pages to people, so if you're a sysadmin, your > alternatives are pretty much zilch. Unfortunately, alpha-numeric > pagers simply never caught on over here. In the UK kids use SMS as it is much cheaper than the cost of a voice call. Most kids have them on pre-paid at silly costs - close to $1/minute. SMS is closer to $0.15/message. > As a consumer of portable digital networking/telephony products > (and not an engineer helping to design them), it's hard to tell what > implementation differences are caused by the underlying technology, > and what is caused by sheer asinine management stupidity. > > However, since the labels for these different > solutions/products/technologies that I have available to me are > relatively limited, I will use what I am aware of. > >>> Fortunately, I won't have to wait too long before everything over >>> here will be CDMA, >> >> You must know something that I don't. I asked you before for details. > > 3G. It'll be a few years, but all of Europe is in the process of > auctioning off 3G licenses, and this will supplant GSM. Actually, 3G will coexist with GSM. All the main European carriers have stated that they will only roll out 3G in urban areas. Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 15:12:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB73937B6BD for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:12:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010122230430.MPOG285.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:04:30 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14Kq0k-0000ln-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:04:30 +0000 Content-Length: 2012 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:04:29 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Michael C.Wu , Greg Lehey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-Jan-01 Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:35 PM +1030 2001/1/22, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> That's not the issue here. BTW, for the USA you need a three-band >> phone. That is, incidentally, the only kind of phone which will work >> just about anywhere (I'm not sure about Israel and Korea). > > Uhh, I think you need more than that. Let's count: > > AMPS/NAMPS > US TDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) > US CDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) > US GSM (1900Mhz) > European GSM (900Mhz/1800Mhz) > > To which you will be able to add W-CDMA, with the advent of the > 3G networks. Of course, this doesn't begin to address the needs for > analog coverage outside the US -- this is just a list of the > different technologies and frequencies of which I am personally > acquainted. I'd love to see this list get expanded. UMTS/3G is 1920-1980 downlink and 2110-2170 uplink. >> The real issue is competition. One large company would be able to get >> better coverage. > > Coverage is extremely expensive to build. It's much cheaper to > buy. And even then, you don't really try to dot the entire country > side with a tower in each and every square mile (maybe every 1/10th > of a square mile in cities), you just don't bother trying to put up > antennas in the less populated areas, and you live with the fact that > 98% coverage is good enough and the rest of the people can just piss > off. You also build pci and micro cellular basestations that live on light/ utility poles. Nokia, Ericsson and Lucent all do these. Nokias are called MetroCite. >>> Love love 3G+W-CDMA. >> >> And where do I get one? R+D labs! Not mine yet though :-( > Damn good question. I wanna know, too. Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 15:13:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C2A37B6B8 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010122230813.MQQJ285.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:08:13 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14Kq4K-0000mN-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:08:12 +0000 Content-Length: 2274 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010121223131.C45892@peorth.iteration.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:08:12 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: "Michael C . Wu" Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brad Knowles , Michael C.Wu , Greg Lehey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-Jan-01 Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:56:50PM +1030, Greg Lehey scribbled: >| On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 21:10:08 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: >| > You can find out more about W-CDMA and 3G phones in >| > the Artech House Publishers' "Mobile Communications Series" of books. >| > I have the entire collection. :) >| >| I've been looking at web pages, and it doesn't sound to me that 3G is >| a new transmission technology, just something that climbs on the back >| of one. Is there any reason why it should be tied to CDMA and not to >| GSM? > > It is not a very new technology. However, I should point out to you > that GSM is a totally different layer from CDMA. CDMA handles > the transmission, GSM is more like our authentification scheme. As I mentioned in an earlier email - 3G gives greater network capacity. I.e. more users per square furlong making call. Thus, operators get more money. It does this ny replacing the physical/wireless layer with a CDMA technology. Most of the network stays the same. GSM overs everything from the RF signal to how to plug a GSM network into a PSTN (i.e. normal trunk network). 3G also adds some nice services but these are available with GPRS. >| > There are less regulation and much greater demand for the technology >| > in Asia. In many Asian countries, (.jp, .tw, .hk, .sg), it averages >| > to two or three cell phones for the entire population. >| >| Nonsense, I've seen dozens of mobile phones in cramped places. I'd >| guess that just about everyone has one. Are you thinking of Bhutan or >| Aden, maybe? > > I know it is true for Japan and Taiwan at least. I think the above is meant to be "two or three cells phones for each of the entrire population". > -- > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | >| http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 15:15:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 572E537B6BC for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:15:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010122231419.MSNE285.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:14:19 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14KqAE-0000mx-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:14:18 +0000 Content-Length: 2917 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:14:18 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: David Scheidt Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brad Knowles , Michael C.Wu , Greg Lehey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-Jan-01 David Scheidt wrote: > On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >:On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 21:10:08 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: >:> On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:42:45AM +0100, Brad Knowles scribbled: >:>> At 12:35 PM +1030 2001/1/22, Greg Lehey wrote: >:>> >:>>> That's not the issue here. BTW, for the USA you need a three-band >:>>> phone. That is, incidentally, the only kind of phone which will work >:>>> just about anywhere (I'm not sure about Israel and Korea). >:>> >:>> Uhh, I think you need more than that. Let's count: >:>> >:>> AMPS/NAMPS >:>> US TDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) >:>> US CDMA (1900Mhz? 900Mhz?) >:>> US GSM (1900Mhz) >:> >:> US 1900 and 900 > > The US is 1900 and 800, not 900. The 900 Mhz freqs used by GSM in the rest > of the world are the property of the US military. To be honest, I'm not > sure there are any AMPS band GSM carriers in the US. Maybe Bell South DCS? > >:I've been looking at web pages, and it doesn't sound to me that 3G is >:a new transmission technology, just something that climbs on the back >:of one. Is there any reason why it should be tied to CDMA and not to >:GSM? > > Yes. CDMA has much better use of bandwidth. All users of a CDMA channel > use it simultanously, not time multiplexed. The data travelling across the > air interface are encoded with a walsh code, which allows the receiver to > pick out each data stream, because some mathmattecian was bloody clever. > I'm unable to find a good web reference right at the moment, but CDMA is > clearly a better choice than any of the TDMA solutions. Are you basing your "clearly a better choice" on the fact the CDMA uses Walsh codes? A few things - CDMA needs a greater bandwidth to transmit a channel than TDMA. This is because of the Walsh codes that are convolved with the data a 3.84Mb/s when the data is only 9.6kb/s. Having users transmit on the same frequency increases the noise power in each users receiver and from Shannon this places a limit on the capacity. Transmitted power must be adjusted much more carefully than in TDMA to ensure that the basestation isn't overloaded by a user close it to (near-far problem). Here CDMA as an RF technology wins is in multipath resiliance. Each data bit is spread over a wider bandwidth by the Walsh code making it resiliant to frequency dependent fading. Becuase Walsh codes are orthogonal, easy to correlate against them. With mutil-path effects that cause bits to run into each other (inter-symbol interferance) the Walsh code allows the receiver to very accurately equalise the delays out (Rake receiver and Turbo-coding). Duncan > David Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 15:56:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD3037B69D; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup561.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.21.49]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA200148B2; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:17:24 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010122103659.A90890@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121155556.B75159@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010122103659.A90890@citusc17.usc.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:57:58 +0100 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:36 AM -0800 2001/1/22, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Regardless, this doesn't affect the situation I was talking about: my > two independent subjects were comparing the quality of PAL video on my > TV (which is actually sub-optimal quality because of very slight > display artefacts in the picture tube) with their experience of NTSC > on presumably similar-quality NTSC equipment. Problem is, you're now comparing their apples to your oranges. Even if the make and model of the TV set in question were identical, and you were viewing them side-by-side in the very same room, you could still have individual variations that would cause one to look better than the other under certain circumstances. Until you're doing a double-blind comparison with both input formats on both TVs and they don't know which TV is which or which video input is which (they're both labelled just "A" and "B"), and you're using exactly the same input subject matter (just in two different formats) can they begin to give you an objective comparison. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 16:12:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63CD037B69E; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 0DFC16A93A; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:42:26 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:42:25 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010123104225.A16006@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:14:22AM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 1:14:22 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:31 AM +1030 2001/1/22, Greg Lehey wrote: > > The key factor governing accessibility and coverage in the US is > that virtually all digital phones sold are dual-mode digital/analog, > or tri-mode GSM/digital (CDMA or TDMA)/analog, and therefore you can > almost always get coverage even if the coverage isn't ideal (or may > require roaming). That's simply not possible over here in Europe. Nor would it make much difference, since the analogue networks in Europe are much less well developed than in the USA. Are you sure that you can get combined GSM/CDMA phones? They'd be particularly useful in Australia, where we have only partially overlapping GSM service (in populated areas) and CDMA (in the Outback). There are no phones which will do both, and a salesdroid recently told me, full of conviction, that there would never be such a beast. >> Not a problem. You store each of them on a SIMM. When I go to other >> countries, I often borrow a local SIMM to save on costs. Just try >> that with CDMA. > > SIMs are a major pain-in-the-ass. Do you know how easy it is to > lose those tiny little things? No. I've never lost one. > I'd much prefer to have the multiple NAM capability in the phone > itself, and not have SIMs at all. It doesn't address the issue I've mentioned. > The one and only thing SIMs have going for them is they make > it easier to take your account information with you if you want/need > to switch phones, but having multiple NAMs in a phone that > implemented all the proper carrier technologies would pretty much > eliminate the need to do that. How do you move your personal phone directory? > If you were to ever want to upgrade the phone, you should be able to > have the necessary account information transferred from one phone > directly to the other. Ah. Assuming the people know how to do it. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 16:16:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B09437B69F; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:16:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2F0DA6A93A; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:46:15 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:46:15 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Michael C . Wu" , Brad Knowles , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010123104615.B16006@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010121182033.C44819@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010121182033.C44819@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 06:20:33PM -0600 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 18:20:33 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 10:31:36AM +1030, Greg Lehey scribbled: >> On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 0:46:38 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: >>> At 4:54 PM -0600 2001/1/21, Michael C . Wu wrote: >>> However, Europe made the "leap" to TDMA technology in GSM, before >>> CDMA existed -- standard AMPS/NAMPS style analog cell phone >>> technology had been stretched beyond its limits, and they had no >>> choice but to go digital. >> >> It's true that GSM is a TDMA technology, but it's definitely not what >> is called TDMA in the USA. > > GSM is a set of protocol for mobile phones, and so is PCS. As I've mentioned before, PCS is a term meaning "digital wireless telephony", and thus covers GSM. > I tend to think of them as being comparable to TCP vs. UDP. > Believe it or not, the OSI 7-layer useless model applies > to mobile phones and telecomm too. We have counterparts > to TCP/IP OSI model in the mobile comm OSI model. > > Why do I think that OSI model is useless? To paraphrase/quote > wpaul: "Nobody in the real world uses the OSI model, it was created > just so that professors and other people can make paper tests that > have no importance other than making students memorize useless > things." I think this is a one-sided viewpoint. Yes, the OSI model is deeply flawed: when they designed it, they didn't have a good understanding of what layers would really make sense. But the concept, rather than the implementation, is still very useful. >>> The same will happen in the US, as 3G takes over from existing >>> TDMA, CDMA, AMPS/NAMPS networks, but at least many of those >>> companies will have relatively less money thrown down the TDMA hole >>> which they then have to completely write off. >> >> Don't forget that they have recently started introducing GSM into the >> USA. I've found that it works better than the CDMA service. This has >> nothing to do with the relative merits of the technology, but with the >> fact that the service providers learnt that their cell placement was >> too sparse for the old analogue/*DMA network, and they placed them >> closer for GSM. > > Yes, I recently switched from AT&T PCS to Voicestream GSM in America. What kind of PCS were you using before? And how's the GSM coverage in Austin? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 16:19:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C3537B400; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:19:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA13900; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:16:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA1LaG7A; Mon Jan 22 17:16:34 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05346; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:19:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101230019.RAA05346@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) To: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:17:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles), kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010121182033.C44819@peorth.iteration.net> from "Michael C . Wu" at Jan 21, 2001 06:20:33 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > GSM is a set of protocol for mobile phones, and so is PCS. > I tend to think of them as being comparable to TCP vs. UDP. [ ... ] > | Don't forget that they have recently started introducing GSM into the > | USA. I've found that it works better than the CDMA service. This has > | nothing to do with the relative merits of the technology, but with the > | fact that the service providers learnt that their cell placement was > | too sparse for the old analogue/*DMA network, and they placed them > | closer for GSM. > > Yes, I recently switched from AT&T PCS to Voicestream GSM in America. The salient point is that GSM is not all you need to hook in. In case this wasn't obvious: don't expect your GSM phone from outside the US to work in the US, Canada, or Mexico. The US GSM system uses a different set of frequencies, so unless your phone is multifrequency as well as multimode, it won't work. Actually, I've only seen a couple of phones that are capable of multimode _and_ multifrequency, and they were very expensive; you might as well just have two phones... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 16:26: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A900B37B400; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:25:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (dialup1857.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.235.65]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7DD18277; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:25:40 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010123104225.A16006@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010123104225.A16006@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:25:31 +0100 To: Greg Lehey From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:42 AM +1030 2001/1/23, Greg Lehey wrote: > Nor would it make much difference, since the analogue networks in > Europe are much less well developed than in the USA. Keep in mind that we're talking about one theoretical phone that can supposedly get coverage anywhere in the world. The analog portion would be intended for use primarily in the US, in those places where you can't get GSM, TDMA, or CDMA coverage. > Are you sure that you can get combined GSM/CDMA phones? They'd be > particularly useful in Australia, where we have only partially > overlapping GSM service (in populated areas) and CDMA (in the > Outback). There are no phones which will do both, and a salesdroid > recently told me, full of conviction, that there would never be such a > beast. To the best of my knowledge, there are not currently any combined GSM/TDMA or GSM/CDMA phones. I do recall reading something about a year ago about some new TI DSP chips that were coming out that should make it possible to have a single phone handle every type of network that exists in the world (including even satellite, if you had the right transceiver electronics), but that it probably wouldn't start showing up in actual phones for about another year. I don't recall having read anything about it since. > No. I've never lost one. I've lost two or three. >> I'd much prefer to have the multiple NAM capability in the phone >> itself, and not have SIMs at all. > > It doesn't address the issue I've mentioned. I think multiple NAM capability would address most of what people use SIMs for, and if the phone manufacturers made it easy to transfer NAM information from one phone to another (e.g., just beam it across, as you can share phone number information via infrared with many Nokia phones, or transfer information from one Palm Pilot to another via infrared), then I think that would largely solve the other problems, too. > How do you move your personal phone directory? Personal phone directories should be stored in the phone, and not on the SIM. SIMs don't have enough space for the phone directories (only 100 entries), and they don't allow long enough text labels per entry. Again, if you need to transfer them, do it by infrared. > Ah. Assuming the people know how to do it. The people at the store would obviously know how to do it. Phone manufacturers could make it easy to transfer information like this, and doing so would help address some of the crime associated with cell phones -- you'd no longer have a SIM (or a NAM) frequently being transferred from one phone to another, or the same phone frequently swapping SIMs (or NAMs), and therefore you could use phone fingerprinting techniques to home in on potentially suspicious activity that could warrant further investigation. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 16:33: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F309A37B404; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:32:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 983996A93A; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:02:44 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:02:43 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: keichii@peorth.iteration.net, Brad Knowles , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010123110243.B16070@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010121182033.C44819@peorth.iteration.net> <200101230019.RAA05346@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101230019.RAA05346@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:17:47AM +0000 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23 January 2001 at 0:17:47 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> GSM is a set of protocol for mobile phones, and so is PCS. >> I tend to think of them as being comparable to TCP vs. UDP. > > [ ... ] > >>> Don't forget that they have recently started introducing GSM into the >>> USA. I've found that it works better than the CDMA service. This has >>> nothing to do with the relative merits of the technology, but with the >>> fact that the service providers learnt that their cell placement was >>> too sparse for the old analogue/*DMA network, and they placed them >>> closer for GSM. >> >> Yes, I recently switched from AT&T PCS to Voicestream GSM in America. > > The salient point is that GSM is not all you need to hook in. > > In case this wasn't obvious: don't expect your GSM phone from > outside the US to work in the US, Canada, or Mexico. The US > GSM system uses a different set of frequencies, so unless your > phone is multifrequency as well as multimode, it won't work. You've jumped into this discussion relatively late (I hope). We've already discussed this, along with the frequencies. > Actually, I've only seen a couple of phones that are capable of > multimode _and_ multifrequency, and they were very expensive; you > might as well just have two phones... That depends on where you live. Triband GSM phones aren't overly expensive, there just aren't many of them. I have a Motorola L+, which has different names in different parts of the world. It works just about everywhere I have taken it, and it costs no more than its two-band competitors. It's just a POS. I really hate the user interface, and as soon as Nokia comes out with a triband phone, I'll buy one. I did consider using the Motorola only in America and the Nokia in the Real World(tm), but I found that jumping from one interface to another was more of a nuisance than I thought. It was relatively simple, though, since I just needed to swap SIMs :-) Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 16:40:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E04D37B400; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:40:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010123004039.WKRI10171.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:40:39 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14KrVm-0000xA-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:40:38 +0000 Content-Length: 2977 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:40:38 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , Michael C.Wu , Greg Lehey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23-Jan-01 Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:42 AM +1030 2001/1/23, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Nor would it make much difference, since the analogue networks in >> Europe are much less well developed than in the USA. > > Keep in mind that we're talking about one theoretical phone that > can supposedly get coverage anywhere in the world. The analog > portion would be intended for use primarily in the US, in those > places where you can't get GSM, TDMA, or CDMA coverage. Africa is buying up a lot of Europe's old Analog equipment. >> Are you sure that you can get combined GSM/CDMA phones? They'd be >> particularly useful in Australia, where we have only partially >> overlapping GSM service (in populated areas) and CDMA (in the >> Outback). There are no phones which will do both, and a salesdroid >> recently told me, full of conviction, that there would never be such a >> beast. > > To the best of my knowledge, there are not currently any combined > GSM/TDMA or GSM/CDMA phones. I do recall reading something about a > year ago about some new TI DSP chips that were coming out that should > make it possible to have a single phone handle every type of network > that exists in the world (including even satellite, if you had the > right transceiver electronics), but that it probably wouldn't start > showing up in actual phones for about another year. I don't recall > having read anything about it since. The problem for a mutlimode phone is not the DSP or even the protocol. That is "trivally" solved by just having more code in the handset. The phone would just swap mode when the user requested. The real problem lies in the circuits for the RF portion. There are no common features between CDMA and GSM phones, so that making a radio that does both well enough to be comptative on _manufacturing cost_ is really hard. Note that manufacturing costs are really important, these things might cost a lot but with 100's of millions of handsets made a year this is important. Up until now people have been thinking of so-called "velco" phones that are really two phones in one box. With 3G and the European operators plans to only use 3G in urban areas there will be real demand in three or five years for 3G-GSM handsets. The people that make the RF chips for mobile phones are now thinking about how to do a cost-effective multi-band/mutli-mode handset. These will cover GSM900-GSM1800 and 3G, and for small additional cost GSM-1900. It is unlikely that these will be used in IS-95 handsets (the Qualcomm CDMA) because of the licensing issues surrounding Qaulcomms design - the chips may well be capable of it. Mutli-mode phones will be around earlier than the three years but as velcro phones. Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 16:42:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A445737B400; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B98736A93A; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:11:54 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:11:54 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010123111154.C16070@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010123104225.A16006@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 01:25:31AM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23 January 2001 at 1:25:31 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:42 AM +1030 2001/1/23, Greg Lehey wrote: >>> I'd much prefer to have the multiple NAM capability in the phone >>> itself, and not have SIMs at all. >> >> It doesn't address the issue I've mentioned. > > I think multiple NAM capability would address most of what people > use SIMs for, and if the phone manufacturers made it easy to transfer > NAM information from one phone to another (e.g., just beam it across, > as you can share phone number information via infrared with many > Nokia phones, or transfer information from one Palm Pilot to another > via infrared), then I think that would largely solve the other > problems, too. I shudder to think of the security implications. >> How do you move your personal phone directory? > > Personal phone directories should be stored in the phone, and not > on the SIM. SIMs don't have enough space for the phone directories > (only 100 entries), My phone only has 88 entries. > and they don't allow long enough text labels per entry. Again, if > you need to transfer them, do it by infrared. That's difficult if you're transferring from a Motorola to a Nokia. > >> Ah. Assuming the people know how to do it. > > The people at the store would obviously know how to do it. They didn't when I bought my Motorola. You don't really expect mobile phone salesmen to have a brain, do you? > Phone manufacturers could make it easy to transfer information like > this, Sure they could. But in view of the fact that many don't even have a function to transfer data from SIM to phone and back, what chance do you think there is that they would actually do it? > and doing so would help address some of the crime associated with > cell phones you'd no longer have a SIM (or a NAM) frequently being > transferred from one phone to another, or the same phone frequently > swapping SIMs (or NAMs), and therefore you could use phone > fingerprinting techniques to home in on potentially suspicious > activity that could warrant further investigation. There are too many "could"s in here. I see the ability to beam this kind of info from one phone to another as more of a security issue than keeping it on a SIM. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 16:43:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF3437B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:42:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA54402; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:42:37 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:42:36 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) In-Reply-To: <20010123110243.B16070@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: :That depends on where you live. Triband GSM phones aren't overly :expensive, there just aren't many of them. I have a Motorola L+, :which has different names in different parts of the world. It works :just about everywhere I have taken it, and it costs no more than its :two-band competitors. It's just a POS. I really hate the user :interface, and as soon as Nokia comes out with a triband phone, I'll :buy one. I did consider using the Motorola only in America and the :Nokia in the Real World(tm), but I found that jumping from one :interface to another was more of a nuisance than I thought. It was :relatively simple, though, since I just needed to swap SIMs :-) Have you considered getting the US version of the same phone you use in the US? Still means you need two phones, but only one UI. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 16:55:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41AD037B699; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:55:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA74421; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:54:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Duncan Barclay Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , "Michael C.Wu" , Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Jan 2001 01:54:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: Duncan Barclay's message of "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:00:49 -0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Duncan Barclay writes: > Actually, 3G will coexist with GSM. All the main European carriers have > stated that they will only roll out 3G in urban areas. That is certainly not the case in Norway and Sweden - Telia was denied a UMTS concession in Sweden precisely because they wouldn't commit to deploying UMTS in lighter-populated areas. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 16:58:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6228337B402 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 526496A93A; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:28:02 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:28:02 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Murray Cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Parroty stuff Message-ID: <20010123112802.B16170@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010122192329.A1594@welearn.com.au> <200101221738.f0MHc1I61580@gratis.grondar.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101221738.f0MHc1I61580@gratis.grondar.za>; from mark@grondar.za on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 07:38:14PM +0200 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 19:38:14 +0200, Mark Murray wrote: >> Tonight when I came home from work, to my surprise Blue greeted me >> with "Hello ". > > Are you sure that is a budgie and not a compiler? It's a galah, not a budgie. About 4 times the size of a budgie, and completely different in colour. You never say "you stupid budgie". Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 17: 3:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC7037B402 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA27635; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:58:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAjZaq61; Mon Jan 22 17:58:30 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06571; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:02:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101230102.SAA06571@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: silly C style question To: tl001@online.no (Tore Lund) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:02:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3A6C72DC.7F5F817@online.no> from "Tore Lund" at Jan 22, 2001 06:50:20 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > if (0 == i) > > { > > foo(i); > > bar(i); > > } vs. > > if (0 == i) { > > foo(i); > > bar(i); > > } [ ... ] > Unfortunately, there is no objective way to decide which style makes the > code easier to read. Take a look through the FreeBSD sources, and you > may realize what sort of flame war you have just started. At least this > is closer to topic than the discussion on mobile phones. Actually, I think style preference has a lot to do with the tools you use, particularly your editor. The second version lets me hit "$%" in vi, for example, to do a quick block skip, if the block of code in question is not of interest (e.g. if I knew 'i' was not zero). I have also seen a lot of "qed" users, who don't like the block spacing used: > > if (0 == i) { > > foo(i); > > bar(i); > > } And prefer: > > if( 0 == i) { > > foo( i); > > bar( i); > > } For similar editor usage reasons. As to comparing zero to 'i', instead of the other way around, well... }B^). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 17: 7:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33E437B400; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:07:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (dialup1857.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.235.65]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E4F10D18; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:10:35 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010122202052.17979@localhost> References: <20010122202052.17979@localhost> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:44:12 +0100 To: Scott Mitchell , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Daniel O'Connor" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , "Michael C . Wu" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:20 PM +0000 2001/1/22, Scott Mitchell wrote: > Perhaps in Belgium you can only SMS people on your own network (analogous > to only being able to email people who use the same ISP as you)? I agree > that would suck. That's pretty much the situation we have. People using real GSMs can send SMSes to anyone, but any computer using an SMS gateway (for which they still pay money for each and every SMS sent) can only send them to others on the same network. This makes it pretty much impossible for anyone to send an automated SMS to a person who is on other carriers (e.g., you want to have an SMS notification every time you get an e-mail message from a particular set of addresses, or with a particular keyword in the subject), unless you have three separate SMS gateway servers. What I don't understand is why -- you still pay the same amount of money, why can't you send automated SMSes to anyone you want? -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 17:13:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bazooka.unixfreak.org (bazooka.unixfreak.org [63.198.170.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B1437B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:13:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by bazooka.unixfreak.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CEA1A3E02; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:13:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from unixfreak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bazooka.unixfreak.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6AC73C10A; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:13:30 -0800 (PST) To: Mark Murray Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silly C style question In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Murray of "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:43:19 +0200." <200101221743.f0MHh7I61638@gratis.grondar.za> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:13:25 -0800 From: Dima Dorfman Message-Id: <20010123011330.CEA1A3E02@bazooka.unixfreak.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > if (0 == i) > > { > > foo(i); > > bar(i); > > } > > IMHO, this wastes one line of screen space. I only use it for functions. As you already mentioned, this is grade-A bikeshed material; however, the counter-argument to this is: if (0 == i) { foo(i); bar(i); } Personally, I like the one you quoted (brace on a line of its own), but I'd much rather use this than tacking a brace on the end of the if() line, which is plain ugly, IMO. Just thought I'd throw some more kindling on the fire. Dima Dorfman dima@unixfreak.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 17:23:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF10237B402; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:23:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03646; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:19:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAz1aG.g; Mon Jan 22 18:18:51 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06982; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:23:06 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101230123.SAA06982@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:23:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles), keichii@peorth.iteration.net (Michael C . Wu), kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010123104225.A16006@wantadilla.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Jan 23, 2001 10:42:25 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Are you sure that you can get combined GSM/CDMA phones? They'd be > particularly useful in Australia, where we have only partially > overlapping GSM service (in populated areas) and CDMA (in the > Outback). There are no phones which will do both, and a salesdroid > recently told me, full of conviction, that there would never be such a > beast. They won't work for your GSM, unless frequncies are shifted for the GSM frequency differences, so it's probably not much use, but here are the tri-mode phones I'm aware of: Motorola StarTAC 7868 (*) Audiovox CDM 9000 (*) Kyocera QCP-2035a Nokia 5185i Motorola Timeport (*)=Can be used as a data connection for a laptop, with a seperate kit. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 17:32:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 499CB37B402 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix (freddie.boonie.org [209.52.175.37]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29365 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:32:36 -0800 From: "Freddie Cash" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:31:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: silly C style question Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3A6C6E80.4535.632D3C1@localhost> In-reply-to: <200101221743.f0MHh7I61638@gratis.grondar.za> References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> ; from j mckitrick "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:06:00 GMT." X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22 Jan 2001, at 19:43, Mark Murray wrote: > > This is a trivial question, but I get hung up on details, so I'm gonna > > ask anyway. ;) > OOOOOPPPPPPENNN Bikeshed! ;-) > > When using opening and closing braces for a loop or other control > > structure, most coders put the opening brace on the same line as the > > decision statement. It seems to me, using it in more of a block format > > would make the code easier to read. Does this make sense? > > if (0 == i) > > { > > foo(i); > > bar(i); > > } > IMHO, this wastes one line of screen space. I only use it for functions. Bah! If you are worried about screen space and legibility, there's always the following: if (0==i) { foo(i); bar(i); } which is what we use here. > > versus > > > > if (0 == i) { > > foo(i); > > bar(i); > > } > > "Classic" K&R. Allows a little more code per screen. However, there is no such thing as "The One True Style" just as there is no such thing as "The Perfect Pair of Pants", or "The One True Cookbook". Everyone has their own way, and so long as it is legible to the vast majority, then it works for me. Cheers Freddie fcash@bigfoot.com ---------- Hackers make toys. Crackers break them. -- Peter Seebach For my public PGP key, send e-mail with subject: PGP KEY REQUEST To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 17:40:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D68037B400; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:40:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA18990; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:35:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAC9aGdL; Mon Jan 22 18:35:18 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07349; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:40:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101230140.SAA07349@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:40:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), keichii@peorth.iteration.net, brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles), kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010123110243.B16070@wantadilla.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Jan 23, 2001 11:02:43 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > In case this wasn't obvious: don't expect your GSM phone from > > outside the US to work in the US, Canada, or Mexico. The US > > GSM system uses a different set of frequencies, so unless your > > phone is multifrequency as well as multimode, it won't work. > > You've jumped into this discussion relatively late (I hope). We've > already discussed this, along with the frequencies. Yes, I saw that. I was more thinking about who you would be pissing off if you turned one of these things on in the U.S. near a military base. > > Actually, I've only seen a couple of phones that are capable of > > multimode _and_ multifrequency, and they were very expensive; you > > might as well just have two phones... > > That depends on where you live. Triband GSM phones aren't overly > expensive, there just aren't many of them. I have a Motorola L+, > which has different names in different parts of the world. It works > just about everywhere I have taken it, and it costs no more than its > two-band competitors. It's just a POS. I really hate the user > interface, and as soon as Nokia comes out with a triband phone, I'll > buy one. I did consider using the Motorola only in America and the > Nokia in the Real World(tm), but I found that jumping from one > interface to another was more of a nuisance than I thought. It was > relatively simple, though, since I just needed to swap SIMs :-) Nokia has the 5185i; have you looked at it? Most of the service agreements for the triband phones in the U.S. give them the "right" to reprogram your phone on you: basically a forced "upgrade". Verizon is particularly nasty about that, but for a flat rate and no long distance charges, I'll overlook a lot, at least until the first time they zap WinCE onto the thing... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 17:47:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C6A37B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10055; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:42:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAMUaGJt; Mon Jan 22 18:42:19 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07471; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:46:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101230146.SAA07471@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: hungarian notation To: tech_info@threespace.com (Technical Information) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:46:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010122134036.01790960@mail.threespace.com> from "Technical Information" at Jan 22, 2001 01:48:10 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >| Hungarian notation is not a sufficient feature to guarantee that > >| this will happen, but it is a stylistic aid that programers can use > > > >The way I understand it, the hungarian notation is most useful for the > >original writer who hasn't looked at his code for a while, or a maintenance > >programmer. When reading the code, rather than flipping back to the > >declaration block repeatedly, you know what each variable is by its name. > > This savings in time alone is enough to make me think it's worthwhile. > > But it also has the advantage that you get to reuse the same variable name > on different types without confusion. For instance, intBuffer and > charBuffer are two completely different (but perhaps related) > variables. This sort of thing becomes very valuable in a language like > Visual Basic where a group of different controls may have related function > (e.g., lblZipCode, cmdZipCode, and txtZipCode). OTOH, we could just teach people to choose meaningful variable names, and comment their code. I admit that it does act as a barrier to entry for Windows programmers, since the Microsoft code is rife with that sort of thing, and they are probably used to it. On the other hand, I can read regular code, and I can read Hungariafied code, while someone who has only been taught about Hungariafied code is going to have a hard time hacking up bind or sendmail or FreeBSD or the majority of useful and legacy code out there. Personally, if I'm given my druthers, I'd like someone I hire to not be artificially limited in the environments in which they can be a productive coder. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 17:52:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44F237B400; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:52:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AE60E6A918; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:22:23 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:22:23 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: keichii@peorth.iteration.net, Brad Knowles , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010123122223.G16170@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010123110243.B16070@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200101230140.SAA07349@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101230140.SAA07349@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 01:40:18AM +0000 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23 January 2001 at 1:40:18 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> In case this wasn't obvious: don't expect your GSM phone from >>> outside the US to work in the US, Canada, or Mexico. The US >>> GSM system uses a different set of frequencies, so unless your >>> phone is multifrequency as well as multimode, it won't work. >> >> You've jumped into this discussion relatively late (I hope). We've >> already discussed this, along with the frequencies. > > Yes, I saw that. I was more thinking about who you would be > pissing off if you turned one of these things on in the U.S. > near a military base. Hmm. Yes, I wonder what would happen. I wonder how long it would take them to work out what was going on. >>> Actually, I've only seen a couple of phones that are capable of >>> multimode _and_ multifrequency, and they were very expensive; you >>> might as well just have two phones... >> >> That depends on where you live. Triband GSM phones aren't overly >> expensive, there just aren't many of them. I have a Motorola L+, >> which has different names in different parts of the world. It works >> just about everywhere I have taken it, and it costs no more than its >> two-band competitors. It's just a POS. I really hate the user >> interface, and as soon as Nokia comes out with a triband phone, I'll >> buy one. I did consider using the Motorola only in America and the >> Nokia in the Real World(tm), but I found that jumping from one >> interface to another was more of a nuisance than I thought. It was >> relatively simple, though, since I just needed to swap SIMs :-) > > Nokia has the 5185i; have you looked at it? I have now (http://www.nokiausa.com/5185i). It doesn't do GSM. According to Nokia's emetic popup, which requires an explicit click to close, "TriMode" means AMPS, 800 MHz CDMA, and 1900 MHz CDMA. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 17:54:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6570C37B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA12146; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:53:58 -0700 Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdodQlya; Mon Jan 22 18:53:55 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07732; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:54:03 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101230154.SAA07732@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Stands Out! To: jswarner@uswest.net (Joe Warner) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:54:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3A6A4F3C.E31D628D@uswest.net> from "Joe Warner" at Jan 20, 2001 07:53:48 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yesterday at 4:00pm and as luck would have it, > someone at work stuck the end of a screwdriver > where they shouldn't have and dropped our whole > data center. > > After a couple of hours of working with the > rest of our IS staff to get all the servers back > up, I noticed something peculiar. We were > still having problems with one of our routers > (the config file got blown away) and we > kept checking "Network Neighborhood" on > a Windows machine to see what workstations > were showing up under our domain. For a > long time, the only workstations that would > show up was our primary pdc and the > FreeBSD 3.4 workstation I have in my > cubicle! We all got a chuckle out of this > but I still don't know why this happened. > > Does anyone have any ideas? FreeBSD systems tend to boot faster than Windows systems, by a large margin. In general, this usually means that a FreeBSD system running Samba will, unless it's configured to deliberately lose, _always_ win the election for PDC. When Samba first started with partial support, InterJets were winning the election and knocking NT servers off the net. I tried to convince them that this was a feature, and if they didn't like it, they should buy faster booting NT machines... This isn't a problem with the developement branch of Samba, I'm told, since Luke Howard has supposedly had real PDC code there for a long time. However, unless the domain secret is known, generally, this will disappear everything on your network for any system which believes the election was won legitimately, and grabs the FreeBSD box as the PDC. If you reboot the FreeBSD box in question, the problem will "go away". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 17:55:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CDD737B401 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:55:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 4A75D6A918; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:25:27 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:25:27 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010123122527.H16170@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010123110243.B16070@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 06:42:36PM -0600 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 18:42:36 -0600, David Scheidt wrote: > On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >> That depends on where you live. Triband GSM phones aren't overly >> expensive, there just aren't many of them. I have a Motorola L+, >> which has different names in different parts of the world. It works >> just about everywhere I have taken it, and it costs no more than its >> two-band competitors. It's just a POS. I really hate the user >> interface, and as soon as Nokia comes out with a triband phone, I'll >> buy one. I did consider using the Motorola only in America and the >> Nokia in the Real World(tm), but I found that jumping from one >> interface to another was more of a nuisance than I thought. It was >> relatively simple, though, since I just needed to swap SIMs :-) > > Have you considered getting the US version of the same phone you use > in the US? Still means you need two phones, but only one UI. Well, the phone I use works in the USA, but I suppose you mean the Nokia. Yes, I considered that, but remember that a second phone can be very expensive. I've also looked at the US Nokia phones, and they're noticeably different from the GSM ones. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 18: 2:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC5AE37B402 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.courts.govt.nz (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA08211; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:01:42 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200101230201.PAA08211@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> To: jswarner@uswest.net (Joe Warner) Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Dan Langille Subject: Re: FreeBSD Stands Out! Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:01:43 GMT X-Mailer: Endymion MailMan Professional Edition v3.0.29 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This isn't a problem with the developement branch of Samba, > I'm told, since Luke Howard has supposedly had real PDC code > there for a long time. However, unless the domain secret is > known, generally, this will disappear everything on your > network for any system which believes the election was won > legitimately, and grabs the FreeBSD box as the PDC. > > If you reboot the FreeBSD box in question, the problem will > "go away". That reminded me of something from ages ago. Have a read of this. It shows how to make samba win elections. You might be able to reverse the logic to make it lose elections. --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 18: 9:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5052C37B401; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:09:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010123020902.WYQF10171.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:09:02 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14KstJ-0001Au-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:09:01 +0000 Content-Length: 1546 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010123122223.G16170@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:09:00 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , Brad Knowles , keichii@peorth.iteration.net, Terry Lambert Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23-Jan-01 Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 23 January 2001 at 1:40:18 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>>> In case this wasn't obvious: don't expect your GSM phone from >>>> outside the US to work in the US, Canada, or Mexico. The US >>>> GSM system uses a different set of frequencies, so unless your >>>> phone is multifrequency as well as multimode, it won't work. >>> >>> You've jumped into this discussion relatively late (I hope). We've >>> already discussed this, along with the frequencies. >> >> Yes, I saw that. I was more thinking about who you would be >> pissing off if you turned one of these things on in the U.S. >> near a military base. > > Hmm. Yes, I wonder what would happen. I wonder how long it would > take them to work out what was going on. A GSM phone will not transmit anything until it find a beacon being transmitted by a basestation. There is a scanning procedure that looks at all possible frequencies in use by all GSM networks (in a given band), followed by a timing acquistion, followed by reading of various informational packets transmitted in the beacon. The whole procedure is documented in the GSM 05.08 and 05.10 standards. The US military would not know anyone was using a phone because the phone would just not do anything apart from saying "no network". > Greg Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 18:13:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2DCB37B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:13:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from slc982.modem.xmission.com ([166.70.6.220] helo=xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14Ksxd-0002Z7-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:13:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3A6D91A3.DD57068B@xmission.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:13:55 -0700 From: rootman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Joe Warner , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Stands Out! References: <200101230154.SAA07732@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >FreeBSD systems tend to boot faster than Windows systems, by >a large margin. Yeah but my FreeBSD box is in my cubicle, outside of our data center and it has it's own dedicated UPS. The data center was the only place that lost power. Anyway, everything went back to normal after rebooting our pdc this morning. Regards Terry Lambert wrote: > > Yesterday at 4:00pm and as luck would have it, > > someone at work stuck the end of a screwdriver > > where they shouldn't have and dropped our whole > > data center. > > > > After a couple of hours of working with the > > rest of our IS staff to get all the servers back > > up, I noticed something peculiar. We were > > still having problems with one of our routers > > (the config file got blown away) and we > > kept checking "Network Neighborhood" on > > a Windows machine to see what workstations > > were showing up under our domain. For a > > long time, the only workstations that would > > show up was our primary pdc and the > > FreeBSD 3.4 workstation I have in my > > cubicle! We all got a chuckle out of this > > but I still don't know why this happened. > > > > Does anyone have any ideas? > > FreeBSD systems tend to boot faster than Windows systems, by > a large margin. > > In general, this usually means that a FreeBSD system running > Samba will, unless it's configured to deliberately lose, > _always_ win the election for PDC. When Samba first started > with partial support, InterJets were winning the election and > knocking NT servers off the net. I tried to convince them > that this was a feature, and if they didn't like it, they > should buy faster booting NT machines... > > This isn't a problem with the developement branch of Samba, > I'm told, since Luke Howard has supposedly had real PDC code > there for a long time. However, unless the domain secret is > known, generally, this will disappear everything on your > network for any system which believes the election was won > legitimately, and grabs the FreeBSD box as the PDC. > > If you reboot the FreeBSD box in question, the problem will > "go away". > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 18:15:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2101837B400; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (dialup1857.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.235.65]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1BB1DC91; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 03:14:53 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200101230140.SAA07349@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200101230140.SAA07349@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 03:07:02 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), keichii@peorth.iteration.net, kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:40 AM +0000 2001/1/23, Terry Lambert wrote: > Nokia has the 5185i; have you looked at it? According to , that is a US-only model, sold only by Cricket Communications and Verizon. According to , the "tri-mode" capabilities that it refers to are "1900MHz CDMA / 800MHz CDMA/ AMPS". This doesn't do you a damn bit of good outside the US. Note that there is a difference between "tri-band" and "tri-mode" phones. The former term is usually used in reference to GSM 900/1800/1900Mhz, the former two frequencies work in Europe and Asia, the latter is one of the two GSM frequencies that work in the US (in those very few places where you have GSM coverage in the US). Contrariwise, tri-mode is usually a term that applies to two different frequencies of a particular digital cell phone technology (e.g., TDMA, CDMA, or GSM), plus AMPS/NAMPS. This is a term frequently used in the US, and is not really applicable outside of that market. I've had 5100 series phones before, and their UI is not nearly as good as the 6100 series (the latter has an extra button or two which make interacting with the phone a lot easier), and the same can be said for many of the other features (the 6100 series usually includes infra-red capability, and with the Nokia Suite software package and the right cable, you can use it to access the Internet without a dedicated GSM modem card). The 7100 series has a built-in modem (used for the WAP browsing), and any compatible computer can connect via Infrared without any additional hardware or software necessary (Jordan Hubbard used it to log in and get his e-mail remotely at the kick-off meeting of the NLFUG last year). Sadly, this is the only model I know of that Nokia makes that has an integrated hardware modem and doesn't require any additional software or hardware on the computer -- I believe that even the new 6200 series (which includes a WAP browser) requires additional software on the computer. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 18:15:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02E2A37B401; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:15:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (dialup1857.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.235.65]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2491DA6D; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 03:14:59 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010123111154.C16070@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010123104225.A16006@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010123111154.C16070@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 03:13:18 +0100 To: Greg Lehey From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:11 AM +1030 2001/1/23, Greg Lehey wrote: > My phone only has 88 entries. My Nokia 7110 has room for 1000 entries, and I have easily exceeded 100 in the past. My Nokia 6150 has room for 150 entries in the phone, and I currently have 105. >> and they don't allow long enough text labels per entry. Again, if >> you need to transfer them, do it by infrared. > > That's difficult if you're transferring from a Motorola to a Nokia. It doesn't have to be. Heck, you could send the necessary information via SMS, if infrared wasn't an option. > They didn't when I bought my Motorola. You don't really expect mobile > phone salesmen to have a brain, do you? They do have to be able to activate the phones they sell, so they have to have a certain minimum amount of knowledge and experience. If nothing else, they should be able to look up the necessary information and be able to follow the steps provided. > Sure they could. But in view of the fact that many don't even have a > function to transfer data from SIM to phone and back, what chance do > you think there is that they would actually do it? I've got this ability. Sadly, the Nokia 6150 doesn't tell you how many slots on the SIM card are in use (although the Nokia 7110 does), so I just copied over all the entries on my SIM card to my phone, so that I could determine just how many total entries I had in my phone (numbers above). What phones are you using that don't have this ability? > There are too many "could"s in here. I see the ability to beam this > kind of info from one phone to another as more of a security issue > than keeping it on a SIM. Naw, use public key encryption. You could ensure that this information is never transmitted in the clear, and that the phone user can never decrypt it even if they did somehow intercept the transmission. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 18:16:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB69F37B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:15:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from slc982.modem.xmission.com ([166.70.6.220] helo=xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14Kszx-000309-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:15:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3A6D9233.AD81425@xmission.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:16:19 -0700 From: rootman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Langille Cc: Joe Warner , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Stands Out! References: <200101230201.PAA08211@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks, I'll take a look. Though, I'll probably leave "as is". I like it when FreeBSD/Samba win. heh heh 8^} Dan Langille wrote: > > This isn't a problem with the developement branch of Samba, > > I'm told, since Luke Howard has supposedly had real PDC code > > there for a long time. However, unless the domain secret is > > known, generally, this will disappear everything on your > > network for any system which believes the election was won > > legitimately, and grabs the FreeBSD box as the PDC. > > > > If you reboot the FreeBSD box in question, the problem will > > "go away". > > That reminded me of something from ages ago. Have a read of > this. It shows how to make samba win elections. You might > be able to reverse the logic to make it lose elections. > > > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. > http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 18:16:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E9937B401 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:16:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13841; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:44:58 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200101230201.PAA08211@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:44:57 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Dan Langille Subject: Re: FreeBSD Stands Out! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , (Joe Warner) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23-Jan-01 Dan Langille wrote: > > > This isn't a problem with the developement branch of Samba, > > I'm told, since Luke Howard has supposedly had real PDC code > > there for a long time. However, unless the domain secret is > > known, generally, this will disappear everything on your > > network for any system which believes the election was won > > legitimately, and grabs the FreeBSD box as the PDC. > > > > If you reboot the FreeBSD box in question, the problem will > > "go away". > > That reminded me of something from ages ago. Have a read of > this. It shows how to make samba win elections. You might > be able to reverse the logic to make it lose elections. These options probably help -> # Browser Control Options: # set local master to no if you don't want Samba to become a master # browser on your network. Otherwise the normal election rules apply ; local master = no # OS Level determines the precedence of this server in master browser # elections. The default value should be reasonable ; os level = 33 # Domain Master specifies Samba to be the Domain Master Browser. This # allows Samba to collate browse lists between subnets. Don't use this # if you already have a Windows NT domain controller doing this job ; domain master = yes # Preferred Master causes Samba to force a local browser election on startup # and gives it a slightly higher chance of winning the election ; preferred master = yes Turn them all to 'no' and set the os level to something like 15. (NT picks 32) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 18:18: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E7F5537B401 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:17:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 80970 invoked from network); 23 Jan 2001 02:17:46 -0000 Received: from gargoyle.outpost.co.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.42) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 23 Jan 2001 02:17:46 -0000 Message-ID: <3A6CE9C3.52CD9504@outpost.co.nz> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:17:39 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: silly C style question References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> ; from j mckitrick "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:06:00 GMT." <3A6C6E80.4535.632D3C1@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freddie Cash wrote: > However, there is no such thing as "The One True Style" just as there is > no such thing as "The Perfect Pair of Pants", or "The One True Cookbook". > Everyone has their own way, and so long as it is legible to the vast > majority, then it works for me. I'm sorry, but I can't resist the temptation to quote ESR: From the jargon file entry for "indent style": > Surveys have shown the Allman and Whitesmiths styles to be the > most common, with about equal mind shares. K&R/1TBS used to be > nearly universal, but is now much less common in C (the opening > brace tends to get lost against the right paren of the guard > part in an if or while, which is a Bad Thing). Defenders of > 1TBS argue that any putative gain in readability is less > important than their style's relative economy with vertical > space, which enables one to see more code on one's screen at once. (1TBS: 1 True Brace Style) For the full entry, see: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/indent-style.html -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 19: 5:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61CAB37B401 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:05:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from shellyeah.org (zippy.shellyeah.org [140.186.112.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7BAAF6E2BA2 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:05:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6917 invoked by uid 0); 23 Jan 2001 03:01:46 -0000 Received: from zippy.shellyeah.org (jcm@140.186.112.25) by zippy.shellyeah.org with SMTP; 23 Jan 2001 03:01:46 -0000 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:01:46 -0500 (EST) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Craig, you answered my question by at least legitimizing what I learned is called Allman style. And fortunately it is closely related to BSD. :) Terry, I like the vi shortcut. Glad to know you are a vi user as well. I knew there was something I liked about you from the beginning. ;) I like the Allman style, because the braces don't get lost, and because the logical loops and forks are readily evident. And I don't believe the screen real estate problem is really an issue any more. The source tree is full of multi-line comments, and blank lines to mark logic and make the code easier to read. The source code is for people, the binary is for the machines. I must say, after deciding to implement 'style' in my code at work, I actually found a bug or two, and I found ways to make my code far more readable. And I even reminded myself what some forgotten functions did, and I took the opportunity to comment them. :) And to the extent possible, I have decided to 'un-Win32' my code from now on.... no more stupid hungarian notation, mixed case variable names, and #defines that I have no idea what they are. _export FAR PASCAL foo(LPINT variable) became _export _far _pascal foo(int _far *variable) and lowercase looks so much better, anyway. :) jonathon (my other address is down :(1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 20:21:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2C2537B401; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B40836AB6F; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:51:29 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:51:29 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: TV standards (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010123145129.N414@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121155556.B75159@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010122103659.A90890@citusc17.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 07:57:58PM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 19:57:58 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:36 AM -0800 2001/1/22, Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> Regardless, this doesn't affect the situation I was talking about: my >> two independent subjects were comparing the quality of PAL video on my >> TV (which is actually sub-optimal quality because of very slight >> display artefacts in the picture tube) with their experience of NTSC >> on presumably similar-quality NTSC equipment. > > Problem is, you're now comparing their apples to your oranges. > Even if the make and model of the TV set in question were identical, > and you were viewing them side-by-side in the very same room, you > could still have individual variations that would cause one to look > better than the other under certain circumstances. > > Until you're doing a double-blind comparison with both input > formats on both TVs and they don't know which TV is which or which > video input is which (they're both labelled just "A" and "B"), and > you're using exactly the same input subject matter (just in two > different formats) can they begin to give you an objective comparison. There's no way you'd have any difficulty telling PAL from NTSC on the same TV, even if they were optimally adjusted. The difference in resolution is immediately obvious. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 20:50:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EBA137B401 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 03A80575B1; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:50:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:50:04 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010122225004.A80596@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Greg Lehey , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122103136.L93049@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010121182033.C44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010123104615.B16006@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010123104615.B16006@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 10:46:15AM +1030 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 10:46:15AM +1030, Greg Lehey scribbled: | On Sunday, 21 January 2001 at 18:20:33 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: | > On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 10:31:36AM +1030, Greg Lehey scribbled: | > I tend to think of them as being comparable to TCP vs. UDP. | > Believe it or not, the OSI 7-layer useless model applies | > to mobile phones and telecomm too. We have counterparts | > to TCP/IP OSI model in the mobile comm OSI model. | > | > Why do I think that OSI model is useless? To paraphrase/quote | > wpaul: "Nobody in the real world uses the OSI model, it was created | > just so that professors and other people can make paper tests that | > have no importance other than making students memorize useless | > things." | | I think this is a one-sided viewpoint. Yes, the OSI model is deeply | flawed: when they designed it, they didn't have a good understanding | of what layers would really make sense. But the concept, rather than | the implementation, is still very useful. I have to agree with you, the layering could be done much better. I like to think of TCP/IP as an dependency tree more than a layer. | >>> The same will happen in the US, as 3G takes over from existing | >>> TDMA, CDMA, AMPS/NAMPS networks, but at least many of those | >>> companies will have relatively less money thrown down the TDMA hole | >>> which they then have to completely write off. | >> | >> Don't forget that they have recently started introducing GSM into the | >> USA. I've found that it works better than the CDMA service. This has | >> nothing to do with the relative merits of the technology, but with the | >> fact that the service providers learnt that their cell placement was | >> too sparse for the old analogue/*DMA network, and they placed them | >> closer for GSM. | > | > Yes, I recently switched from AT&T PCS to Voicestream GSM in America. | | What kind of PCS were you using before? And how's the GSM coverage in | Austin? AT&T CDMA PCS. GSM coverage in Austin is quite good. The best coverage is still AT&T's PCS, but Voicestream GSM only lacks coverage slight compared to AT&T. I was surprised that Voicestream had better coverage than Verizon/MCI/Sprint. I still owe you that dinner, when are you coming to Austin? 8) -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 20:57:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.registeredsite.com (mail5.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EBAE37B402 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.threespace.com (mail.threespace.com [216.247.134.44]) by mail5.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0N4v2103715 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:57:03 -0500 Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com [24.21.224.204] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id AF1A24840140; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:56:58 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010122234546.0179bba8@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:50:55 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: hungarian notation In-Reply-To: <200101230146.SAA07471@usr08.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010122134036.01790960@mail.threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:46 PM 1/22/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > But it also has the advantage that you get to reuse the same variable name > > on different types without confusion. For instance, intBuffer and > > charBuffer are two completely different (but perhaps related) > > variables. This sort of thing becomes very valuable in a language like > > Visual Basic where a group of different controls may have related function > > (e.g., lblZipCode, cmdZipCode, and txtZipCode). > >OTOH, we could just teach people to choose meaningful variable >names, and comment their code. > >I admit that it does act as a barrier to entry for Windows >programmers, since the Microsoft code is rife with that sort >of thing, and they are probably used to it. On the other hand, >I can read regular code, and I can read Hungariafied code, >while someone who has only been taught about Hungariafied code >is going to have a hard time hacking up bind or sendmail or >FreeBSD or the majority of useful and legacy code out there. Hmm...bind and sendmail rewritten in Visual Basic...well, I know what *I'm* going to be doing for the next few weeks. :-) >Personally, if I'm given my druthers, I'd like someone I hire >to not be artificially limited in the environments in which >they can be a productive coder. Seriously though, everybody has to start learning with some particular style, usually even before they learn that it's a style and not The Right Way (TM). I spend so much time stressing to my students that they should indent/capitalize/space things properly that they sometimes get confused when I later say that the indentation doesn't affect the program. I compare it to handwriting where kids are taught to write using very specific strokes only to eventually get older, become medical doctors, and lose all control over their penmanship. ;-) --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 21:10:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hub.lovett.com (hub.lovett.com [216.60.121.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F0537B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:10:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ade by hub.lovett.com with local (Exim 3.20 #1) id 14Kvh9-0004Bq-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:08:39 -0600 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:08:39 -0600 From: Ade Lovett To: Greg Lehey Cc: Mark Murray , Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Parroty stuff Message-ID: <20010122230839.R289@FreeBSD.org> References: <20010122192329.A1594@welearn.com.au> <200101221738.f0MHc1I61580@gratis.grondar.za> <20010123112802.B16170@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010123112802.B16170@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 11:28:02AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 11:28:02AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > It's a galah, not a budgie. About 4 times the size of a budgie, and > completely different in colour. You never say "you stupid budgie". Correct. You say "you stupid galah". Your trusty firearm says "*bang*" (possibly repeatedly). -aDe -- Ade Lovett, Austin, TX. ade@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 21:13:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98FE037B400; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:13:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1F9F96AB70; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:43:23 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:43:23 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Ade Lovett Cc: Mark Murray , Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Parroty stuff Message-ID: <20010123154323.O414@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010122192329.A1594@welearn.com.au> <200101221738.f0MHc1I61580@gratis.grondar.za> <20010123112802.B16170@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010122230839.R289@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010122230839.R289@FreeBSD.org>; from ade@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 11:08:39PM -0600 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 23:08:39 -0600, Ade Lovett wrote: > On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 11:28:02AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> It's a galah, not a budgie. About 4 times the size of a budgie, and >> completely different in colour. You never say "you stupid budgie". > > Correct. You say "you stupid galah". Your trusty firearm says > "*bang*" (possibly repeatedly). Ah, that's the Texan alternative. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 22: 0:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (grouter.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C504637B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:59:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from grondar.za (root@gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0N5x8I64898; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:59:11 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200101230559.f0N5x8I64898@gratis.grondar.za> To: Greg Lehey Cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Parroty stuff References: <20010123112802.B16170@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20010123112802.B16170@wantadilla.lemis.com> ; from Greg Lehey "Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:28:02 +1030." Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:59:16 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Monday, 22 January 2001 at 19:38:14 +0200, Mark Murray wrote: > >> Tonight when I came home from work, to my surprise Blue greeted me > >> with "Hello ". > > > > Are you sure that is a budgie and not a compiler? > > It's a galah, not a budgie. About 4 times the size of a budgie, and > completely different in colour. You never say "you stupid budgie". OK! OK! Are you sure its a GALAH, and not a bloody compiler?! ;-) M -- Mark Murray Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 22: 1:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAAFB37B402 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA63574; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:00:35 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:00:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Parroty stuff In-Reply-To: <20010123154323.O414@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Correct. You say "you stupid galah". Your trusty firearm says > > "*bang*" (possibly repeatedly). > > Ah, that's the Texan alternative. That's what they say about cows too, isn't it? ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 22: 4: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (grouter.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F1837B402; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:03:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from grondar.za (root@gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0N63hI64924; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:03:43 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200101230603.f0N63hI64924@gratis.grondar.za> To: Ade Lovett Cc: Greg Lehey , Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Parroty stuff References: <20010122230839.R289@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20010122230839.R289@FreeBSD.org> ; from Ade Lovett "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:08:39 CST." Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:03:51 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 11:28:02AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > It's a galah, not a budgie. About 4 times the size of a budgie, and > > completely different in colour. You never say "you stupid budgie". > > Correct. You say "you stupid galah". Your trusty firearm says "*bang*" > (possibly repeatedly). So "galah" is used as an Australianism for "pratt", "twit", "clot" or "berk"? (Or "pillock"?) M -- Mark Murray Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 23:15:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C84B837B400 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com ([216.196.73.168]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:02:56 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) id f0N74mj37304; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:04:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:04:47 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Freddie Cash Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silly C style question Message-ID: <20010122230447.S10761@rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflex> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200101221743.f0MHh7I61638@gratis.grondar.za> <3A6C6E80.4535.632D3C1@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3A6C6E80.4535.632D3C1@localhost>; from fcash@bigfoot.com on Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 05:31:44PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 05:31:44PM -0800, Freddie Cash wrote: > Bah! If you are worried about screen space and legibility, there's > always the following: > > if (0==i) > { foo(i); > bar(i); > } Everyone knows it should be, if(!i){foo(i);bar(i);} Or, if ( i == 0 ) { foo( i ) ; bar( i ) ; } Or if you like emacs tabbing, if ( i == 0 ) { foo( i ) ; bar( i ) ; } -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 23:49: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA58B37B400; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:48:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA19391; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:42:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAtPay1L; Tue Jan 23 00:42:54 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA14547; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:48:29 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101230748.AAA14547@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata To: dmlb@dmlb.org (Duncan Barclay) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:48:29 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway), brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles), keichii@peorth.iteration.net, tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) In-Reply-To: from "Duncan Barclay" at Jan 23, 2001 02:09:00 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Yes, I saw that. I was more thinking about who you would be > >> pissing off if you turned one of these things on in the U.S. > >> near a military base. > > > > Hmm. Yes, I wonder what would happen. I wonder how long it would > > take them to work out what was going on. > > A GSM phone will not transmit anything until it find a beacon being > transmitted by a basestation. There is a scanning procedure that > looks at all possible frequencies in use by all GSM networks (in a > given band), followed by a timing acquistion, followed by reading > of various informational packets transmitted in the beacon. The > whole procedure is documented in the GSM 05.08 and 05.10 standards. > > The US military would not know anyone was using a phone because the phone > would just not do anything apart from saying "no network". When I was in about third grade, I had a ham radio receiver (I collected broken electronics and other things, which I would then fix or scavenge for parts; I built my first robot in fifth grade). One interesting effect that I quickly latched onto to get PBS programming on the television instead of "The Brady Bunch" was that you can use one receiver to selectively jam specific frequencies from being usable by another (if you tell my sisters, I will, of course, deny this). All it takes is a strong receiver (actually, when they make you turn off your electronics in a plane, it's to keep them from interfering with the on-board ILS receivers, not just so people will actually use the GTE "AirPhone"). The point is, if the British can detect unlicensed televisions, I think the U.S. Military can find a cell phone that looks like a scanner trying to listen to their frequencies. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 22 23:49:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kwanon.research.canon.com.au (kwanon.research.canon.com.au [203.12.172.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541C537B401 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellmann.research.canon.com.au (bellmann.research.canon.com.au [10.5.0.3]) by kwanon.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id F193E8A896; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:56:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from elph.research.canon.com.au (elph.research.canon.com.au [203.12.174.253]) by bellmann.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C4E8B10; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:41:25 +1100 (EST) Received: from blow.research.canon.com.au (blow.research.canon.com.au [10.8.1.4]) by elph.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 688B43D0; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:49:02 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:49:15 +1100 (EST) From: Iain Templeton To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silly C style question In-Reply-To: <20010122230447.S10761@rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflex> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 05:31:44PM -0800, Freddie Cash wrote: > > Bah! If you are worried about screen space and legibility, there's > > always the following: > > > > if (0==i) > > { foo(i); > > bar(i); > > } > > Everyone knows it should be, > > Or, > > if ( > i > == > 0 > ) > { > foo( > i > ) > ; > > bar( > i > ) > ; > } > Wow, that is way too close to our standard C style here... although we use 4 space tabs... if ( i == 0 ) { foo ( i ); bar ( i ); } Although, we only do that for really long lines so they fit within 80ish characters, or for really complex logical expressions. I didn't like it at first, but I can see the benefits after having to figure out some code. -- Iain Templeton, Software Engineer (allegedly) Canon Information Systems Research Australia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 0:28:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FBFC37B401; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010123082810.XEJN18404.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:28:10 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14KyoD-0001YP-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:28:09 +0000 Content-Length: 3217 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200101230748.AAA14547@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:28:09 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata Cc: keichii@peorth.iteration.net, (Brad Knowles) , (Kris Kennaway) , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, (Greg Lehey) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23-Jan-01 Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> Yes, I saw that. I was more thinking about who you would be >> >> pissing off if you turned one of these things on in the U.S. >> >> near a military base. >> > >> > Hmm. Yes, I wonder what would happen. I wonder how long it would >> > take them to work out what was going on. >> >> A GSM phone will not transmit anything until it find a beacon being >> transmitted by a basestation. There is a scanning procedure that >> looks at all possible frequencies in use by all GSM networks (in a >> given band), followed by a timing acquistion, followed by reading >> of various informational packets transmitted in the beacon. The >> whole procedure is documented in the GSM 05.08 and 05.10 standards. >> >> The US military would not know anyone was using a phone because the phone >> would just not do anything apart from saying "no network". > > When I was in about third grade, I had a ham radio receiver (I > collected broken electronics and other things, which I would then > fix or scavenge for parts; I built my first robot in fifth grade). > > One interesting effect that I quickly latched onto to get PBS > programming on the television instead of "The Brady Bunch" > was that you can use one receiver to selectively jam specific > frequencies from being usable by another (if you tell my > sisters, I will, of course, deny this). All it takes is a > strong receiver (actually, when they make you turn off your > electronics in a plane, it's to keep them from interfering > with the on-board ILS receivers, not just so people will actually > use the GTE "AirPhone"). WTF is a "strong receiver"? I think that you are talking about local oscillator leakage that can be used to jam another signal. This effect is well known and handsets have to pass particular limits before being deployed. The emission limits for GSM handsets for Local Oscillator radiation whilst in receive mode are listed in section 4 of the GSM 05.05 standard and they specify a maximum emission of somewhere around -40dBm for a spurious signal. Because of the way one designs a GSM radio, this limit is really easy to beat unless you are using something called a homeodyne or zero-IF radio. Ironically, it is just these radios that will be used for multie-mode GSM/3G handsets. In about three hours I have a meeting on just with topic with one of our clients. > The point is, if the British can detect unlicensed televisions, Via detecting the radiation from the scan coils. A very strong signal, a couple of hundered volts at 15 odd kHz. > I think the U.S. Military can find a cell phone that looks > like a scanner trying to listen to their frequencies. Maybe they can, but a cell phone is certainly not a scanner. The GSM handset will complete its scan for basestations in about 30seconds and then go quiet. Do you think they really care? > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 0:37:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F05C37B69B for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:37:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA23014; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:32:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAATyay6S; Tue Jan 23 01:32:51 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA15273; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:37:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101230837.BAA15273@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: hungarian notation To: tech_info@threespace.com (Technical Information) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:37:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010122234546.0179bba8@mail.threespace.com> from "Technical Information" at Jan 22, 2001 11:50:55 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Personally, if I'm given my druthers, I'd like someone I hire > >to not be artificially limited in the environments in which > >they can be a productive coder. > > Seriously though, everybody has to start learning with some particular > style, usually even before they learn that it's a style and not The Right > Way (TM). I spend so much time stressing to my students that they should > indent/capitalize/space things properly that they sometimes get confused > when I later say that the indentation doesn't affect the program. Do they ever wonder why their calls to "PrintF" fail to get the expected results? Sounds like you needed to teach them to write FORTRAN on punched cards; probably teach the little reprobates to wrap their email at 72 columns, like God intended, too, when everything after 72 is happily ignored as being reserved for card order indices, in case someone drops a tray of 500 cards on the floor... I have to admit to a certain fondness for BASIC; one of my all time favorite "you left yourself logged in: don't do that" jokes depended on the BASIC interpreter loading programs having a side effect of the implementation that it ran program loads through its input buffer, and it acted on flat text files, as if you were typing the program in each time, instead of storing tokenized text. If you think about that for a minute, you realize that you can sort the source code based on arbitrary criteria, and it will still run fine, but it will "print funny", at least until you save it back out again. Inverting the lines was an old standby, but sorting by line length had its merits, as well, since it made the code come out as a nice right triangle, with the hypotenuse slope generally proportional to the length of the program, in lines. As a nice joke, it was a relatively harmless way of teaching people to not leave themselves logged in, and the humor was not lost on others in the lab. It also got them asking the right questions, like "Why does it still work?" and "What's a parser?". It wouldn't have occurred to me to even try, except that back in highschool, we had a Commodore PET with a card reader that we built test correcting software for the school for, and one of the ways we played with it was to have it load everything it read into the keyboard buffer, which let us put BASIC programs on cards, instead of using cassette tapes. Mostly it was cool, not because it was a better way of doing things, but because we could. I really think it's a mistake that accreditation rules have warped to the point where you don't teach specific languages, and instead have to teach "data structures using C". When I was going through the gears, COBOL and "Business FORTRAN" were taught, and my second COBOL program was mostly written by my 30th or so FORTRAN program. Force someone to use a tool they hate, and they will come up with all sorts of clever ways to avoid using it. There's also some value to the old saw of giving people limited/inappropriate tools, so that when they are given better tools, they have an appreciation for them (I'd probably balk at forcing impressionable young kids to use EMACS, though TECO is not out of the question). I'm also of the opinion that beginning computer programmers should probably not own their own equipment, or at least not the good stuff. There was a heck of a lot of value, IMO, putting a bunch of people in a room with equipment as a scarce resource, and having them learn from each other at 2AM in the morning. You don't get anything like that, with everyone going home to their Windows or Linux box by themselves, and doing only what they are assigned. Unnecessarily fast hardware also deemphasizes elegance, and the value of picking different algorithms for slightly different tasks; "fast enough" is the enemy of skill, and "unlimited memory and CPU cycles" is the enemy of perspective. There were really two narrow windows in history where forces converged to turn out good code hackers; thankfully, in the second you didn't have to pay for CPU seconds. You still get some, but I have to say that the yields have dropped since everyone can own as good hardware as the best thing they are likely to be able to play with in the first two years at the local university (part of the "force them to hang out together to have access to the machines" synergy thing there, too). > I compare it to handwriting where kids are taught to write using > very specific strokes only to eventually get older, become medical > doctors, and lose all control over their penmanship. ;-) If doctors all typed, that wouldn't be a problem, but of course being clever folks, they'd find some way of causing equivalent trouble; I suppose that if they all typed, they'd just type everything in Latin. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 1:10:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3ED837B400; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA11102; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:03:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAXNaWAv; Tue Jan 23 02:03:31 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA15826; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:09:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101230909.CAA15826@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata To: dmlb@dmlb.org (Duncan Barclay) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:09:04 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), keichii@peorth.iteration.net, brad.knowles@skynet.be ((Brad Knowles)), kris@FreeBSD.ORG ((Kris Kennaway)), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com ((Greg Lehey)) In-Reply-To: from "Duncan Barclay" at Jan 23, 2001 08:28:09 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > One interesting effect that I quickly latched onto to get PBS > > programming on the television instead of "The Brady Bunch" > > was that you can use one receiver to selectively jam specific > > frequencies from being usable by another (if you tell my > > sisters, I will, of course, deny this). All it takes is a > > strong receiver (actually, when they make you turn off your > > electronics in a plane, it's to keep them from interfering > > with the on-board ILS receivers, not just so people will actually > > use the GTE "AirPhone"). > > WTF is a "strong receiver"? I think that you are talking about local > oscillator leakage that can be used to jam another signal. This effect > is well known and handsets have to pass particular limits before being > deployed. The emission limits for GSM handsets for Local Oscillator > radiation whilst in receive mode are listed in section 4 of the GSM > 05.05 standard and they specify a maximum emission of somewhere around > -40dBm for a spurious signal. Yep; exactly. It sucked a lot of juice, and the juice had to go somewhere. I was really surprised to learn that the receivers tended to take more energy than the transmitters, when you weren't trying to transmit huge distances. Now the PAL contingent will claim that it only interfered because we had an NTSC television. 8-) 8-). > Because of the way one designs a GSM radio, this limit is > really easy to beat unless you are using something called > a homeodyne or zero-IF radio. Ironically, it is just these radios > that will be used for multie-mode GSM/3G handsets. In about > three hours I have a meeting on just with topic with one of our > clients. I think we're back to buying two phones, or using the "velcro" approach... > > The point is, if the British can detect unlicensed televisions, > > Via detecting the radiation from the scan coils. A very strong signal, > a couple of hundered volts at 15 odd kHz. Actually, I believe several southern states in the U.S. use (or used) radar detector detectors, which if found, got you an "obstruction of justice" charge and a stiff fine. I know that for a while, until they were forced off the market, the FCC was trying to crack down on Radio Shack scanners, which could be modified (wire cutter out a diode) to remove the band filter for analog cell phone eaves-dropping. Much less of a problem these days, since it takes slightly more expensive equipment to listen in on newer cell phones. > > I think the U.S. Military can find a cell phone that looks > > like a scanner trying to listen to their frequencies. > > Maybe they can, but a cell phone is certainly not a scanner. The > GSM handset will complete its scan for basestations in about 30seconds > and then go quiet. Do you think they really care? They are professionally anal, which is probably what you want, given their job description. 8-). Actually, I'd expect them to be very defensive of their radio spectrum; look at what it took to pry the 2.4GHz for 802.11b and Bluetooth away from the French military... if nothing else, they could be happily out to confiscate European phones, for being put on their frequencies in the first place as a means of protecting Euro manufacturers from U.S. competition. Seriously, unless they were conducting electronic warfare exercises, I wouldn't expect them to notice, but I don't know what that frequency is used for when they do use it (The general's wife's walkie talkie? Very low energy short range communications that could be noticibly disrupted by a receiver on the frequency, the way LC tank door-security cards get read by RF readers? A private GSM system used only by the military, and completely compatible with European GSM phones? Klingon disruptors?). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 2:23:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns5.pacific.net.au (ns5.pacific.net.au [203.143.252.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A3737B699 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp150.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.150]) by ns5.pacific.net.au (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15102; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:22:57 +1100 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0NANZI18506; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:23:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200101231023.f0NANZI18506@dungeon.home> To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@freebsd.org, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: silly C style question References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from j mckitrick at "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:06:00 +0000" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:23:35 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22nd January 2001, j mckitrick wrote: >This is a trivial question, but I get hung up on details, so I'm gonna ask >anyway. ;) "I'm here for an argument." "Is that a 5 minute argument, or the full half hour?" >When using opening and closing braces for a loop or other control structure, >most coders put the opening brace on the same line as the decision >statement. It seems to me, using it in more of a block format would make >the code easier to read. Does this make sense? > >if (0 == i) >{ > foo(i); > bar(i); >} > >versus > >if (0 == i) { > foo(i); > bar(i); >} Use neither of these! Use: if (i == 0) { foo(i); bar(i); } You Know It Makes Sense(tm). Stephen. PS The full justification for disagreeing with most of the civilised world can be yours for the price of an enquiring email. PPS `0 == i' is so clearly wrong I can't explain it further. PPPS The official GNU style is the ugliest I've ever seen, and it's hard to imagine a worse one. Glad you didn't bring it up here. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 2:27:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (unknown [194.128.198.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5BF537B698; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0NABsS01497; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:11:54 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:11:53 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Greg Lehey Cc: Terry Lambert , keichii@peorth.iteration.net, Brad Knowles , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Message-ID: <20010123101153.A1450@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20010121182033.C44819@peorth.iteration.net> <200101230019.RAA05346@usr08.primenet.com> <20010123110243.B16070@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010123110243.B16070@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 11:02:43AM +1030 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 11:02:43AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > That depends on where you live. Triband GSM phones aren't overly > expensive, there just aren't many of them. I have a Motorola L+, > which has different names in different parts of the world. It works > just about everywhere I have taken it, and it costs no more than its > two-band competitors. It's just a POS. I really hate the user > interface, and as soon as Nokia comes out with a triband phone, I'll > buy one. Seconded. /me glances at his trusty nk702. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 2:28:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thing.orbitel.bg (thing.orbitel.bg [195.24.32.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9681637B698 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:28:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26136 invoked by uid 1001); 23 Jan 2001 10:28:23 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:28:23 +0200 From: Stanislav Grozev To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: silly C style question Message-ID: <20010123122823.B26056@thing.orbitel.bg> References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200101231023.f0NANZI18506@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8t9RHnE3ZwKMSgU+" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101231023.f0NANZI18506@dungeon.home>; from mckay@thehub.com.au on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 08:23:35PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --8t9RHnE3ZwKMSgU+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 08:23:35PM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > >if (0 =3D=3D i) { > > foo(i); > > bar(i); > >} >=20 > Use neither of these! Use: >=20 > if (i =3D=3D 0) > { > foo(i); > bar(i); > } >=20 > You Know It Makes Sense(tm). please elaborate how your solution makes sense? because I am obviously dumb, as I can't seem to recognize the reasoning behind it.;-)) (as a side note, my personal preference is that the opening bracket should be on the same line as the decision statement, but that's irrelevant for now;-) --=20 Regards, Mr. Stanislav Grozev Senior Systems Developer, Orbitel Inc. --8t9RHnE3ZwKMSgU+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6bVzH3KS+A0T8MzkRAmZdAJ96G1bt0OCh5CgyWfwxuiP9IYbxmACfQthW M/DeY4b4NzuhkYNdb03YouQ= =bB9z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8t9RHnE3ZwKMSgU+-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 2:34:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail48.fg.online.no (unknown [148.122.161.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8128837B6A0 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:34:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from online.no (ti01a05-0189.dialup.online.no [130.67.6.61]) by mail48.fg.online.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07233 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:32:38 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A6D5B2D.F0AEE70C@online.no> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:21:33 +0100 From: Tore Lund X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Craig, you answered my question by at least legitimizing what I learned > I like the Allman style, because the braces don't get lost, and because > the logical loops and forks are readily evident. And I don't believe the > screen real estate problem is really an issue any more. Agree, and if it really were a problem, one ought to write: if (0 == i) { foo(i); bar(i); } Bingo, two lines saved! I am not suggesting this in earnest, of course, but it does seem somewhat inconsistent to collapse the upper blank line only. -- Tore To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 2:37:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns5.pacific.net.au (ns5.pacific.net.au [203.143.252.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7702C37B402 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp150.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.150]) by ns5.pacific.net.au (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15651; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:37:07 +1100 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0NAbjI22950; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:37:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200101231037.f0NAbjI22950@dungeon.home> To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@freebsd.org, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: good example kernel code References: <20010122125839.A3300@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20010122125839.A3300@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from j mckitrick at "Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:58:39 +0000" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:37:45 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22nd January 2001, j mckitrick wrote: >I have been studying 'man style' and looking through kernel code. Does >anyone know of any code in the kernel that is about the best example of >well-written, correct, secure, properly styled code? For a long time I've considered the ed network driver to be the highest quality code in FreeBSD. It has been beaten on for 7.5 years now and still looks good. Have a read of sys/dev/ed/if_ed.c and see if you don't agree. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 2:43:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns5.pacific.net.au (ns5.pacific.net.au [203.143.252.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB8D37B402 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp150.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.150]) by ns5.pacific.net.au (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15891; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:43:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0NAi3I22973; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:44:03 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200101231044.f0NAi3I22973@dungeon.home> To: Stanislav Grozev Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: silly C style question References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200101231023.f0NANZI18506@dungeon.home> <20010123122823.B26056@thing.orbitel.bg> In-Reply-To: <20010123122823.B26056@thing.orbitel.bg> from Stanislav Grozev at "Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:28:23 +0200" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:44:03 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23rd January 2001, Stanislav Grozev wrote: >On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 08:23:35PM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: >> Use neither of these! Use: >> >> if (i == 0) >> { >> foo(i); >> bar(i); >> } >> >> You Know It Makes Sense(tm). > >please elaborate how your solution makes sense? because I am obviously dumb, >as I can't seem to recognize the reasoning behind it.;-)) The structure is: if (expression) statement; statement consists of two statements foo(i) and bar(i) in this case. So, it becomes: if (expression) compound-statement The compound-statement must be surrounded with brackets to make it work. I line them up with the statements within the compound-statement because the brackets are part of the compound-statement. (Old Pascal thinking showing through, but it still works in C). Yields: if (expression) { statement1; statement2; } Completely logical! Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 4:18:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A3C37B400; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 04:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.1.121] (warp-core.skynet.be [195.238.2.25]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4D8EDA69; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:18:10 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010123145129.N414@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121155556.B75159@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010122103659.A90890@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010123145129.N414@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:04:48 +0100 To: Greg Lehey From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: TV standards (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:51 PM +1030 2001/1/23, Greg Lehey wrote: > There's no way you'd have any difficulty telling PAL from NTSC on the > same TV, even if they were optimally adjusted. The difference in > resolution is immediately obvious. This has not been my experience on all the various TVs I've looked at, but then I haven't been doing a full double-blind test with the same source displayed in two different formats on two examples of the exact same make & model of TV, both of which have been professionally adjusted to ensure that their output is as close to identical as possible. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 5:14: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shellyeah.org (zippy.shellyeah.org [140.186.112.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 392AF37B404 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 05:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8242 invoked by uid 0); 23 Jan 2001 13:13:45 -0000 Received: from zippy.shellyeah.org (jcm@140.186.112.25) by zippy.shellyeah.org with SMTP; 23 Jan 2001 13:13:45 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:13:44 -0500 (EST) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Stephen McKay Cc: j mckitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: silly C style question In-Reply-To: <200101231023.f0NANZI18506@dungeon.home> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > PS The full justification for disagreeing with most of the civilised > world can be yours for the price of an enquiring email. Okay, I'm game. Reply in private if you like. :) > > PPS `0 == i' is so clearly wrong I can't explain it further. I was taught to use this so accidentally putting if (0 = i) generates and error, while if (i = 0) generates a bug. > PPPS The official GNU style is the ugliest I've ever seen, and it's > hard to imagine a worse one. Glad you didn't bring it up here. Hideous. Two levels of indentation when one will do the job. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 6: 0:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mobile.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [65.0.135.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB9937B69D; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:00:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobile.wemm.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0NE00466538; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:00:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <200101231400.f0NE00466538@mobile.wemm.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Greg Lehey , "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA (was: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c)) In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:00:00 -0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:11 AM +1030 2001/1/23, Greg Lehey wrote: > > They didn't when I bought my Motorola. You don't really expect mobile > > phone salesmen to have a brain, do you? > > They do have to be able to activate the phones they sell, so they > have to have a certain minimum amount of knowledge and experience. Nah, all they need to do is read off the serial number off the back of the SIM card. The phone does not need to be touched as they are not "activated". Incidently, I find my Motorola tri-band GSM phone ("L series +" in .au, also called the timeport in europe and the US) gets a little better signal reception that my nokia 6190. However, the nokia 6190 has **far** better background noise cancellation (dual microphones) than the motorola (also dual microphone). The moment that Nokia do a tri-band phone I'll be all over it.. The 6150 is 900/1800 MHz (which partly overlaps the 1900MHz band), so surely it should be relatively easy to add proper 1900MHz support. But then again, the 1900MHz frequency is run at half the power than 900/1800 (1 watt max in the US vs 2 watt elsewhere, if my memory serves me correctly) and I vaguely recall something about protocol variations on the 1900 band relative to the rest of the world.. But that might have been something that affects the base stations and telco equipment due to the number portability issues here. I'm pretty happy with GSM coverage here, but then again I live in a GSM area (California, SF bay area). International roaming has saved my neck a few times now (.au SIM cards in the US and vice versa - damn, tri-band is convenient!) Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 6:17:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DD6B37B404 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:17:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #1) id 14L4FV-000PCi-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:16:41 +0000 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:16:41 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Duncan Barclay , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: US Invasion by a UK FreeBSDer Message-ID: <20010123141641.Q92905@hand.dotat.at> References: <20010117131158.G97038@klapaucius.zer0.org> <20010122104646.B37403@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010122104646.B37403@klapaucius.zer0.org> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > >> I also might be able to make the BAWUG on Thursay, my commitment will >> finsih about 8pm. Is the Marriot far from whereever the BAWUG is? > >I don't know where the Marriott is, but BAWUG is at 1st and Folsom. The downtown Marriott is at 4th and Mission, so only a few blocks away, although they are bigger than the usual SFO block. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "Then they attacked a town. A small town, I'll admit. But nevertheless a town of people. People who died." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 6:26:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B52E237B6A5 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #1) id 14L4Mm-000PCs-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:24:12 +0000 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:24:12 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: silly C style question Message-ID: <20010123142412.R92905@hand.dotat.at> References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > >When using opening and closing braces for a loop or other control structure, >most coders put the opening brace on the same line as the decision >statement. It seems to me, using it in more of a block format would make >the code easier to read. No, copying the format of the existing code makes it easiest to read. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "Perhaps on your way home you will pass someone in the dark, and you will never know it, for they will be from outer space." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 6:29: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F050737B6A5 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:28:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #1) id 14L4Q1-000PD2-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:27:33 +0000 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:27:33 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silly C style question Message-ID: <20010123142733.S92905@hand.dotat.at> References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010122131649.009c9730@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010122131649.009c9730@mail85.pair.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > >But the whole point of C style is that you develop your own. Not every >painter is a cubist, some are dadaists (and most are neither). That does >not make them better--or worse--just different. I've hacked on too many other people's code to have my own layout style (although I currently gravitate to BSD style since that's the code I look at the most). However, when it comes to variable naming I'm Unix all the way and *shun* anything that's StUdLy or smells of Hungarian. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 6:31: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217A337B6A5 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:30:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 14L4T0-0001ok-01; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:30:38 +0100 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0NDYvZ48342 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:34:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Mobile phone coverage Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:34:56 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <94k1a0$1e4m$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121181251.B44819@peorth.iteration.net> <20010122123223.K3066@wantadilla.lemis.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > Do they cover all the mountainous areas? What about all rivers > > and caves? > > Of course! Even in bank vaults. FWIW, my GSM phone has reception in my microwave oven. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 6:31: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214BD37B6A4 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:30:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 14L4T0-0001ok-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:30:38 +0100 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0NDXpM48292 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:33:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:33:51 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <94k17v$1e4m$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Duncan Barclay wrote: > > Keep in mind that we're talking about one theoretical phone that > > can supposedly get coverage anywhere in the world. The analog > > portion would be intended for use primarily in the US, in those > > places where you can't get GSM, TDMA, or CDMA coverage. > > Africa is buying up a lot of Europe's old Analog equipment. Analog cell-phone equipment? I don't think so. Pre-GSM, Europe suffered a patchwork of incompatible analog networks. That equipment has the value of scrap-metal by now. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 6:48:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10BB737B6A7 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:48:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21086; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:47:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:47:57 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA In-Reply-To: <94k17v$1e4m$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Christian Weisgerber wrote: :Duncan Barclay wrote: : :> > Keep in mind that we're talking about one theoretical phone that :> > can supposedly get coverage anywhere in the world. The analog :> > portion would be intended for use primarily in the US, in those :> > places where you can't get GSM, TDMA, or CDMA coverage. :> :> Africa is buying up a lot of Europe's old Analog equipment. : :Analog cell-phone equipment? I don't think so. :Pre-GSM, Europe suffered a patchwork of incompatible analog networks. :That equipment has the value of scrap-metal by now. : I know that a bunch of Ex-US AMPS equipment has ended up in various bits of china, and Africa. It's cheap, eh? David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 7:13:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A5037B699 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:13:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (r9.bfm.org [216.127.220.105]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:15:33 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010123091354.009de7c0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:13:54 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) In-Reply-To: <3A6D5B2D.F0AEE70C@online.no> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:21 23-01-2001 +0100, Tore Lund wrote: >Agree, and if it really were a problem, one ought to write: > > if (0 == i) { > foo(i); > bar(i); } Of course, the whole problem with this example is not the formating style, but the unnecessary use of a variable. It should be changed to: if (!i) {foo(0); bar(0);} Cheers, :) Adam --- Whiz Kid Technomagic - brand name computers for less. See http://www.whizkidtech.net/pcwarehouse/ for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 7:16:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shellyeah.org (zippy.shellyeah.org [140.186.112.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6FDA837B401 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:16:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17105 invoked by uid 0); 23 Jan 2001 15:16:17 -0000 Received: from zippy.shellyeah.org (jcm@140.186.112.25) by zippy.shellyeah.org with SMTP; 23 Jan 2001 15:16:17 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:16:17 -0500 (EST) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010123091354.009de7c0@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > if (0 == i) { > > foo(i); > > bar(i); } > > Of course, the whole problem with this example is not the formating > style, but the unnecessary use of a variable. It should be changed to: > > if (!i) {foo(0); bar(0);} Except that 'style' says we should not use '!' for tests, unless the variable is declared boolean. Otherwise, compare with 0. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 7:31: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6640237B699 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 14L5PA-00059v-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:30:44 +0100 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0NEc9w50679 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:38:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: VCD Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:38:09 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <94k50h$1hfe$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <200101211447.f0LElEk04073@mobile.wemm.org> <20010121145018.A73989@citusc17.usc.edu> <20010121165422.A44505@peorth.iteration.net> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > Qualcomm invented Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA), the > superior digital cell phone technology that is the basis for all 3G > projects around the world. Basic code division multiplexing has been around for _decades_ in military equipment. Look up "spread spectrum". > CDMA is supplanting TDMA in the US, I wish people wouldn't throw around those terms in a fashion that makes them look like idiots. *DMA refers to "* Divison Multiple Access", which are very very basic terms that say nothing about implementation details. For the wildcard, plug in F(requency), T(ime), and C(ode) as applicable. GSM doesn't use TDMA. GSM uses F/TDMA. If forgot whether Qualcomm's system uses C/FDMA or C/F/TDMA. UMTS will use C/F/TDMA, of course. Instead of spouting *DMA buzzwords, refer to the actual system designation (e.g. "GSM"). > Anybody that has to replace TDMA technology with CDMA technology > winds up pretty much completely replacing the entire network they > built, which is why it's still taking time to make this conversion in > the US. However, Europe made the "leap" to TDMA technology in GSM, > before CDMA existed -- standard AMPS/NAMPS style analog cell phone > technology had been stretched beyond its limits, and they had no > choice but to go digital. This is the fairly common phenomenon of technology upgrades happening out of sync. The US turned their phone network digital long before Europe did, but when Europe moved to ISDN (a term that really refers to the network rather than subscriber lines), the American network was laughably obsolete, digital or not. As players leapfrog each other, the technological lead keeps changing. When Europe got serious about mobile networks, it was clear that analog schemes didn't have much future, so they came up with GSM. The US had a reasonably well-developed AMPS infrastructure, so (even ignoring politics) there was no reason to jump on the GSM bandwagon. Of course now that AMPS is unbearable any longer, technology has progressed beyond GSM. Well, considering how long the US carriers dragged their feet, maybe UMTS as GSM successor will manage to become a global standard. > Therefore, pretty much all European companies will end up ripping > out their entire set of existing TDMA-based GSM networks and > replacing them with brand-new CDMA-based 3G equipment. No, they will add UTMS equipment to their existing GSM stations. Both network types will coexist for some time, and part of the infrastructure (cell stations) can be re-used. > The same will happen in the US, as 3G takes over from existing > TDMA, CDMA, AMPS/NAMPS networks, but at least many of those companies > will have relatively less money thrown down the TDMA hole which they > then have to completely write off. My mobile comms lecturer termed what you call a TDMA hole "a license to print money", and I agree. What may come to haunt the carriers are the totally fucking insane amounts of money that were spent to acquire UMTS licenses. I don't know how this was handled in Belgium, but in some countries, e.g. Germany and the UK, the licenses to the UMTS spectrum were auctioned off by the regulatory bodies. The carriers payed a total of almost _50 billion_ euros for the German UMTS licenses alone. > Of course, US phones also have the concept of "multiple NAMs" > (Number Assignment Modules, i.e., account numbers), so that you can > actually have accounts on multiple different carriers, and switch > between them at your leisure. Many allow up to 99 NAMs on a single > phone. Just try that with a GSM. I don't have to try. I know people who use such SIMs daily. I've only seen this in company phones so far, so apparently it isn't pushed into the consumer market, but it does exist. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 7:44:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1732C37B69B for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (r41.bfm.org [216.127.220.137]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:46:20 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010123094437.009dc5d0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:44:37 -0600 To: Tony Finch From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: silly C style question Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010123142733.S92905@hand.dotat.at> References: <3.0.6.32.20010122131649.009c9730@mail85.pair.com> <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010122131649.009c9730@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 14:27 23-01-2001 +0000, Tony Finch wrote: >"G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: >> >>But the whole point of C style is that you develop your own. Not every >>painter is a cubist, some are dadaists (and most are neither). That does >>not make them better--or worse--just different. > >I've hacked on too many other people's code to have my own layout >style (although I currently gravitate to BSD style since that's the >code I look at the most). However, when it comes to variable naming >I'm Unix all the way and *shun* anything that's StUdLy or smells of >Hungarian. > >Tony. Well, I don't care for H. notation too much either. I code for both, Unix and the other thing, but have always used Unix style var names. The only thing I do differently is when I write a library of routines in assembly language. For routines that are C-callable I use Unix style var names, for those that are not I use dotted names, such as var.name - this to make sure I do not accidently call them from C. Either way, I always prefer everything in lower case. That way I do not have to remember the capitalization, and save myself from having to use the shift key. I really hate the way Windows variables come out, especially when programming in assembly language, since I end up typing such weird names as __imp__VarName@8 - really ugly. Thank goodness for macros, so I don't have to type it that way all through the code! I have to admit that nationalism plays some part in this, too: I grew up in Slovakia, and, for various historical reasons, Slovaks and Hungarians do not always like each other. On second thought, I have overcome such ethnic tensions by living in the US: I just don't care for H. notation for ergonomic reasons (shift key and such). Besides, I don't like to be constrained: I often treat the contents of a variable as a character in one place, as an integer in another, or even as an 8-bit quantity in one place, as a 16-bit quantity in another, as a 32-bit quantity in yet another. To me it's all just binary data. I certainly hope I know what I'm doing <:)>, so why should I need a prefix to remind me of the type of each variable. I do comment my code extensively, so Hungarian notation just gets in the way instead of helping out. Cheers, Adam --- Whiz Kid Technomagic - brand name computers for less. See http://www.whizkidtech.net/pcwarehouse/ for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 7:59:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A47537B6A1 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:59:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (r41.bfm.org [216.127.220.137]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:01:08 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010123095930.00a14550@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:59:30 -0600 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010123091354.009de7c0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:16 23-01-2001 -0500, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >> > if (0 == i) { >> > foo(i); >> > bar(i); } >> >> Of course, the whole problem with this example is not the formating >> style, but the unnecessary use of a variable. It should be changed to: >> >> if (!i) {foo(0); bar(0);} > >Except that 'style' says we should not use '!' for tests, unless the >variable is declared boolean. Otherwise, compare with 0. I wrote that half seriously, half toungue in cheek. But in K&R style (!i) is perfectly acceptable. I use it. If I were writing code for FreeBSD core, I would not use it because I would respect the requested style. But in my own software, I take all the shortcuts I can. As I said in another message, to me all data is just binary. Besides, last I checked, there was no intrinsic boolean type in C anyway. At any rate, I'd just code the whole thing something like this: mov ecx, [esp+4] jecxz .skip push ecx call foo call bar pop ecx .skip: ret Who needs variables when there are registers. And who needs to push 0 twice. ;) Cheers, Adam --- Whiz Kid Technomagic - brand name computers for less. See http://www.whizkidtech.net/pcwarehouse/ for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 10:43: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winnie.fit.edu (fit.edu [163.118.5.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53BD837B402 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:42:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from netzero.net (rm305w-b.campbell.fit.edu [163.118.216.112]) by winnie.fit.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA15552 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:43:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A6DD0B2.B473AF52@netzero.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:42:58 -0500 From: Kevin Brunelle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) References: <3.0.6.32.20010123091354.009de7c0@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010123095930.00a14550@mail85.pair.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Okay, time for me to jump in, let me make it very clear where I stand on this issue. I am K&R all the way. I started learning that way and it always made the most sense to me. Besides, K&R is beautiful -- IMO. But the real reason I am even contributing to this conversation has to do with code you write outside your control. Every bit of code I write for myself I write in K&R, but for a college class that I am in it must follow the style guide. What does the style guide say? Let's just say that you could scare small children with the code submitted for that class. It is a mixture of all the worst ideas ever conceived. It is very close to some code posted before (included below). Now that is ugly! Not only is this a bad thing, because it teaches new programmers how to write really ugly code as habit; but, you cannot deviate from style. My first program was turned in in K&R style; 40% was the max. grade I could get on it. Yeah, a good coder can write in whatever style he/she needs to but they don't have to like it. The only time I was happy writing code for that class was when we were paired up for final projects. I was paired with a person who was a mediocre programmer at best. I was able to write 95% of the code, and he made it fit the style guide. ;-) I guess what I am wasting your bandwidth and hard drive space to say is: You are going to have to write ugly code for other people, do you have to write it for yourself too? A little side note here: This teacher is totally stuck in his way of doing things. Another issue I had with him was licensing. He wanted all the code in class GPL'd I wanted my code to be BSD'd. He said that was fine, but any code that wasn't GPL wasn't graded. It took a week to get him to elaborate on the issue any further than that, and I am still writing under the GPL for the class unless "... an act of god forbids it." >if ( > i > == > 0 > ) > { > foo( > i > ) > ; > > bar( > i > ) > ; > } Kevin Brunelle -- "Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 10:52:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (unknown [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E0437B404 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:51:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from foo.osd.bsdi.com (root@foo.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.137]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0NIpqx50424; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:51:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by foo.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0NIpRt26378; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:51:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200101230837.BAA15273@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:51:27 -0800 (PST) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: hungarian notation Cc: (FreeBSD Chat) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23-Jan-01 Terry Lambert wrote: > There were really two narrow windows in history where forces > converged to turn out good code hackers; thankfully, in the > second you didn't have to pay for CPU seconds. You still get > some, but I have to say that the yields have dropped since > everyone can own as good hardware as the best thing they are > likely to be able to play with in the first two years at the > local university (part of the "force them to hang out together > to have access to the machines" synergy thing there, too). I would like to think that there are still some youngun's kicking around who can code their way out of a cardboard box. Mostly cause I like to think that I can code my way out of a cardboard box. I don't know how slow you would prefer starting machines to be, but I can recall writing a simple 3D maze program/psuedo game my senior year in high school that had to run on 386sx/20's in the lab. :-P It was very basic (no textures, just flat walls and distance shading) but it was noticably better on the one 486/33 in the room. As for the problems with kids at school not learning from each other, this is something that I saw while in college myself. I was an admin for our undergrad CS lab, and the only people that really used the lab were all the business majors that had to take Intro to C. All the CS majors were at home. They did force us to do some group projects, but the way most of those worked out was that each person would pick a piece of the project and run off and do it and then we'd have fun integrating it all at the end. (Usually we would at least lay out the interfaces first so that integration wasn't too difficult.) However, I can say that nothing beats face-to-face group work when it comes to helping each other find bugs, devise optimal algorithms, interfaces, etc. For SMPng, many of us have had to settle for IRC as a poor substitute, but I would love to be able to get us all together for a week in a room somewhere with a steady flow of pizza and caffeine. :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.Baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 11:53:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97C037B402; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6CC8F575B6; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:53:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:53:11 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: John Baldwin Cc: Terry Lambert , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: hungarian notation Message-ID: <20010123135311.A85645@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <200101230837.BAA15273@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 10:51:27AM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 10:51:27AM -0800, John Baldwin scribbled: | | On 23-Jan-01 Terry Lambert wrote: | > There were really two narrow windows in history where forces | > converged to turn out good code hackers; thankfully, in the | > second you didn't have to pay for CPU seconds. You still get | > some, but I have to say that the yields have dropped since | > everyone can own as good hardware as the best thing they are | > likely to be able to play with in the first two years at the | > local university (part of the "force them to hang out together | > to have access to the machines" synergy thing there, too). | | I would like to think that there are still some youngun's kicking around who Too few of those exist.. I have been a TA at my school for a few semesters. The new crop barely knows windows well enough. And you've heard my horror stories... | can code their way out of a cardboard box. Mostly cause I like to think that I | can code my way out of a cardboard box. I don't know how slow you would prefer | starting machines to be, but I can recall writing a simple 3D maze | program/psuedo game my senior year in high school that had to run on 386sx/20's | in the lab. :-P It was very basic (no textures, just flat walls and distance | shading) but it was noticably better on the one 486/33 in the room. Oh the good old days. :) I remember brute forcing my way through a Mercenne prime finder.. | As for the problems with kids at school not learning from each other, this is | something that I saw while in college myself. I was an admin for our undergrad | CS lab, and the only people that really used the lab were all the business | majors that had to take Intro to C. All the CS majors were at home. They did | force us to do some group projects, but the way most of those worked out was These guys are barely able to use Visual Studio or other GUI IDE's after graduation. (Granted, there are exceptions.) | that each person would pick a piece of the project and run off and do it and | then we'd have fun integrating it all at the end. (Usually we would at least | lay out the interfaces first so that integration wasn't too difficult.) Some of it may be because they do not really enjoy programming or the stuff they do. And rarely do professors teach how to "plan to program." In theory, and verified by my own "testing," people are supposed to spend more than 2/3 the development time in planning the project down to the last detail. None of the courses that I have taken has given me that knowledge. The idea does exist in many software engineering books... | However, I can say that nothing beats face-to-face group work when it comes to | helping each other find bugs, devise optimal algorithms, interfaces, etc. For | SMPng, many of us have had to settle for IRC as a poor substitute, but I would | love to be able to get us all together for a week in a room somewhere with a | steady flow of pizza and caffeine. :) Right, nothing beats a group of hackers in the same room for productivity. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 11:58:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDEEC37B401 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (r34.bfm.org [216.127.220.130]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:00:30 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010123135847.009c9400@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:58:47 -0600 To: Kevin Brunelle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) In-Reply-To: <3A6DD0B2.B473AF52@netzero.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20010123091354.009de7c0@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010123095930.00a14550@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:42 23-01-2001 -0500, Kevin Brunelle wrote: >myself I write in K&R, but for a college class that I am in it must >follow the style guide. What does the style guide say? Let's just say >that you could scare small children with the code submitted for that >class. It is a mixture of all the worst ideas ever conceived. It is very >close to some code posted before (included below). Now that is ugly! Not >only is this a bad thing, because it teaches new programmers how to >write really ugly code as habit; but, you cannot deviate from style. Just remind yourself of Mark Twain's adage (I think it was Mark Twain): "I never let schooling interfere with my education." Do for the class what the teacher wants, do it your way elsewhere. >doing things. Another issue I had with him was licensing. He wanted all >the code in class GPL'd I wanted my code to be BSD'd. He said that was >fine, but any code that wasn't GPL wasn't graded. Strange. I wonder if he has the right to do so. I am not quite sure who owns copyright on school assignments: the school or the student (any copyright lawyer here?) If the school, then it is theirs to do with as they please including releasing it under GPL, and you just need to put up with it. If the student, then he has no business to insist on nonsense like that. At any rate, I would not worry about it too much: Typical class assignments are not brain surgery, so the code is not worth fighting over. Again, I'd suggest, just do what he wants, but don't let your schooling interfere with your education. Cheers, Adam --- Whiz Kid Technomagic - brand name computers for less. See http://www.whizkidtech.net/pcwarehouse/ for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 12: 9: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (unknown [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BB437B400 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:08:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from foo.osd.bsdi.com (root@foo.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.137]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0NK8kx57565; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:08:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by foo.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0NK8Mh27387; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:08:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010123135847.009c9400@mail85.pair.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:08:22 -0800 (PST) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: Kevin Brunelle Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23-Jan-01 G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >>doing things. Another issue I had with him was licensing. He wanted >>all >>the code in class GPL'd I wanted my code to be BSD'd. He said that >>was >>fine, but any code that wasn't GPL wasn't graded. > > Strange. I wonder if he has the right to do so. I am not quite sure > who owns copyright on school assignments: the school or the student > (any copyright lawyer here?) If the school, then it is theirs to do > with as they please including releasing it under GPL, and you just > need to put up with it. If the student, then he has no business to > insist on nonsense like that. The student owns the work, and no, the professor does not have the rught to discriminate against students in this manner (at least not in the US.) If it really bothers you, go harrass your counselor, dept head, or dean (depending on how important this is to you :). > At any rate, I would not worry about it too much: Typical class > assignments are not brain surgery, so the code is not worth fighting > over. Again, I'd suggest, just do what he wants, but don't let your > schooling interfere with your education. This is sound advice as well. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.Baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 12:27:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94EAD37B6A9; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.255.97.181]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010123202652.FQSQ18404.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:26:52 +0000 Received: (from scott@localhost) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02466; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:26:43 GMT (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <20010123202642.38328@localhost> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:26:42 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Brad Knowles , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway , "Michael C . Wu" Subject: GSM (was Re: VCD...) References: <20010122202052.17979@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Brad Knowles on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:44:12AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:44:12AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:20 PM +0000 2001/1/22, Scott Mitchell wrote: > > > Perhaps in Belgium you can only SMS people on your own network (analogous > > to only being able to email people who use the same ISP as you)? I agree > > that would suck. > > That's pretty much the situation we have. People using real GSMs > can send SMSes to anyone, but any computer using an SMS gateway (for > which they still pay money for each and every SMS sent) can only send > them to others on the same network. You're right, that's stupid. I guess people using the dialup gateways are a small enough minority that they can get away with ripping them off? Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 12:52:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0167037B401; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f0NKqAH24451; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:52:10 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:52:10 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: John Baldwin Cc: Kevin Brunelle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) Message-ID: <20010123125210.A21362@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <3.0.6.32.20010123135847.009c9400@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:08:22PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:08:22PM -0800, John Baldwin wrote: > The student owns the work, and no, the professor does not have the > rught to discriminate against students in this manner (at least not in > the US.) If it really bothers you, go harrass your counselor, dept > head, or dean (depending on how important this is to you :). At my school at least the school owned all copyrights on all work done for class[0]. This is pretty standard from what I've gathered. OTOH, in either case the professor has not basis for his copyright stance since either the school owns it and no mere professor can dictate licensing without the school's legal counsel or the student owns it and can simply void the whole GPL thing by reissuing it under a BSD license since only a complete zelot would use code under the GPL when it's also available under a BSD license. -- Brooks [0] With of course, the obvious exception of work done under contract. -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 14:21: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winnie.fit.edu (fit.edu [163.118.5.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28EA37B401 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from netzero.net (rm305w-b.campbell.fit.edu [163.118.216.112]) by winnie.fit.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA24224 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:21:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A6E03C7.79F32AAE@netzero.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:20:55 -0500 From: Kevin Brunelle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) References: <3.0.6.32.20010123135847.009c9400@mail85.pair.com> <20010123125210.A21362@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:08:22PM -0800, John Baldwin wrote: > > The student owns the work, and no, the professor does not have the > > rught to discriminate against students in this manner (at least not in > > the US.) If it really bothers you, go harrass your counselor, dept > > head, or dean (depending on how important this is to you :). > > At my school at least the school owned all copyrights on all work done > for class[0]. This is pretty standard from what I've gathered. OTOH, > in either case the professor has not basis for his copyright stance since > either the school owns it and no mere professor can dictate licensing > without the school's legal counsel or the student owns it and can simply > void the whole GPL thing by reissuing it under a BSD license since only > a complete zelot would use code under the GPL when it's also available > under a BSD license. > > -- Brooks > > [0] With of course, the obvious exception of work done under contract. Okay, I was not able to find out for certain, but I believe that the school retains the right to own the rights to all work done for classes. And I believe that my teacher said they had a policy stating that the specific professor for the class was the rights holder should they wish to do that. It is that teacher's decision. He said that he has never done it in the past and wasn't interested in doing so -- one of the reasons all the code was GPL'd. I think this is another reason he doesn't like the BSD license, because he loses all rights to the code. Here is part of the response I was finally able to get in writing from him, dealing with that. Yes it came in several parts and was quite long. I even pushed him so hard that he gave over an hour talk on it in the lecture. He never touched on the BSD license for the class. Making it seem like the GPL was the only fair license out there and all the others would result in the collapse of computing or something worse. In the email I got he did touch on the BSD license with one of his points. Some selected points are repeated below, the numbers are his, the sentences between [ and ] are mine. The lecture's point was just his way of making sure that getting the other students to see things my way would not be easy. I do not disagree with the teacher on several of these points. And I won't argue that he is a very good teacher, just inflexable. In point (1) he tries to seem flexable, but the rest of his email and his lecture really force the reader to understand that he is not that flexable. The name has been removed to protect the teacher. ---- (1) I am not hard and fast on any of these issues. If you or any other student has good reasons to deviate from class policy I am normally open but it must be in advance. [As of yet, I cannot get him to elaborate on what a good reason is. All I have gotten from him is that if it is a group project, everyone must agree with it, and talk to him about it. That doesn't mean he will accept it, just think about it.] (3) As you will see we will be working as a team. The GPL shows no favorites. Anyone can use anyone else's work but must also provide the history and the updates so the original autors can also benefit from the work. I do not believe this is the case in the BSD version. [He is right about that (the must provide updates part), that is why I want the BSD. I want my code to be truely free, to be used by the person however they want.] (5) As I understand the US Code, if you modify someone else's code then that someone owns all of the code including the work you added to it. As an instructor I can provide the base in which to start from for every assignment. This is normal in a number of programming classes. If I provide the code base to start from, then the copyrights revert to me since you modified my work. Further, if you perform work per my direction then, as I understand it, I have claim to the copyrights under all conditions. How much of a claim depends how much came from the class, my direction, the style guide, and other factors. If a student provides an example, can other students use it. It becomes very gray. The instructor directed him so he may have some of it, the student did some, most students get help so the helpers may have some of it. It can get complicated. Therefore students should only hand in work that is legal and under the GPL unless prior permission is granted in writing. [Now, this is the dirty part. He made it quite clear in his lecture that if this issue should be pushed this is what he would do. He would give us the start code written by him and GPL'd and we would fill in the hard stuff. Stuck under the GPL, plus he would make sure that each project was implemented under his direction, etc. He made such a point of this in the lecture that I found it hard to believe he was the same person who had claimed he was "not hard and fast on any of these issues."] (7) Work that you perform that is not handed into the class and did not originate from the class in anyway what so ever does not have to be according to the GPL. This work is yours. If you plan to do some great program and sell it for millions of dollars do not hand it in has home work, it is not a requirment of the class. If you have already coded a great program that you are making millions of dollars from, I would like to ask for a donation and by all means do not hand it in as a homework, I will assume it is according to GPL and will take off points if it is clearly not marked. However, for class assignment, you will find that most have been done in the same way for years. You may think you are adding someing new but many times you simply took a similar guided path of those before you. [It never was the class assignments I cared about, it was the final project. Even considering that it would not be some excellent piece of work; if I should change it and want it under another license, I would be unable to. Because it would be a group project, I couldn't claim to own all the code and would be altering someone elses. And once it is GPL'd it is GPL'd for life. If the BSD license was fully accepted by the teacher I would have little or no problem getting the other students I work with to see the benefits of it over the GPL. But as it is, the chances of me convincing students that it is better in the long run to risk a bad grade and oppose the teacher is not good.] ---- Well, that is more fuel for the fire. Enjoy. :-) -Kevin Brunelle -- "Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 14:42: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C577437B404 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f0NMfjf11245; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:41:45 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:41:45 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Kevin Brunelle Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) Message-ID: <20010123144145.A6437@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <3.0.6.32.20010123135847.009c9400@mail85.pair.com> <20010123125210.A21362@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <3A6E03C7.79F32AAE@netzero.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3A6E03C7.79F32AAE@netzero.net>; from kruptos@netzero.net on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 05:20:55PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 05:20:55PM -0500, Kevin Brunelle wrote: > Okay, I was not able to find out for certain, but I believe that the > school retains the right to own the rights to all work done for classes. > And I believe that my teacher said they had a policy stating that the > specific professor for the class was the rights holder should they wish > to do that. It is that teacher's decision. He said that he has never > done it in the past and wasn't interested in doing so -- one of the > reasons all the code was GPL'd. I think this is another reason he > doesn't like the BSD license, because he loses all rights to the code. What a f*ed up mess. If he provides required starting code what is legitamatly GPLed then you're screwed. This guy's reasioning doens't seem to be all the selfconsistant. Personaly, if you'll have to deal with this guy on a reqular basis, I'd look very hard at finding a different program and tell the administration exactly why if you do. -- Brooks -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 15: 2:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1CF37B69C for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:01:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA79944; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 00:01:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brooks Davis Cc: Kevin Brunelle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) References: <3.0.6.32.20010123135847.009c9400@mail85.pair.com> <20010123125210.A21362@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <3A6E03C7.79F32AAE@netzero.net> <20010123144145.A6437@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 Jan 2001 00:01:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brooks Davis's message of "Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:41:45 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 7 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We should really found the Church of Beastie so people in such predicaments could argue that writing GPLed code was contrary to their religious beliefs... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 15:36: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C9D337B69F for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:35:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA07424; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:30:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAFxaGno; Tue Jan 23 16:29:53 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA03488; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:35:28 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101232335.QAA03488@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) To: kruptos@netzero.net (Kevin Brunelle) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:35:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3A6DD0B2.B473AF52@netzero.net> from "Kevin Brunelle" at Jan 23, 2001 01:42:58 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yeah, a good coder can write in whatever style he/she needs > to but they don't have to like it. The only time I was happy writing > code for that class was when we were paired up for final projects. I was > paired with a person who was a mediocre programmer at best. I was able > to write 95% of the code, and he made it fit the style guide. ;-) All I can say for dealing with idiotic requirements is "man indent". > A little side note here: This teacher is totally stuck in his way of > doing things. Another issue I had with him was licensing. He wanted all > the code in class GPL'd I wanted my code to be BSD'd. He said that was > fine, but any code that wasn't GPL wasn't graded. It took a week to get > him to elaborate on the issue any further than that, and I am still > writing under the GPL for the class unless "... an act of god forbids > it." There is always political danger around university departments, but... IMO, this is extortion, and is not legal. I am reminded of the Rutherford barometer story, which also starts out with a professor being unwilling to grade a student... http://rhs.rocklin.k12.ca.us/Physics/anecdotes/barometer.htm Worse comes to worse, you could just follow the recent patent grants in any area you're asked to code, and use a patented algorithm, for which you are not legally entitled to grant blanket rights, nor is the University. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 16: 5:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB8A37B404 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:05:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0O03qK29451; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:03:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:03:51 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Stephen McKay Cc: j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silly C style question Message-ID: <20010123180351.C26758@futuresouth.com> References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200101231023.f0NANZI18506@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101231023.f0NANZI18506@dungeon.home>; from mckay@thehub.com.au on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 08:23:35PM +1000 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 08:23:35PM +1000, a little birdie told me that Stephen McKay remarked > > Use neither of these! Use: > > if (i == 0) > { > foo(i); > bar(i); > } OK, now you've gone too far. I'm just going to have to kill you. Sorry 'bout that. I always prefer putting the brace on its own line, for ME, it makes it far easier to read the code when the braces line up with each other. I've dealt with many people who insist that the brace belongs at the end of the initiating statement, and I don't much like it, but it's a minor change with which I can deal. But indenting the braces?! That's a stoning offense. I can't read it to save my life. And lemme tell ya, when you get 70 or 80,000 lines of code with that style, and re-indent it all, it makes one hell of a cvs diff. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 16:22:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADC6137B698 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14LDhX-00094D-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 00:22:15 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0O0ME009706; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 00:22:14 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 00:22:14 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silly C style question Message-ID: <20010124002214.B9483@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200101231023.f0NANZI18506@dungeon.home> <20010123180351.C26758@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010123180351.C26758@futuresouth.com>; from fullermd@futuresouth.com on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 06:03:51PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > Use neither of these! Use: | > | > if (i == 0) | > { | > foo(i); | > bar(i); | > } | | OK, now you've gone too far. I'm just going to have to kill you. Sorry | 'bout that. | | But indenting the braces?! That's a stoning offense. I can't read it to | save my life. And lemme tell ya, when you get 70 or 80,000 lines of code | with that style, and re-indent it all, it makes one hell of a cvs diff. That's funny you say that. I inherited a codebase from a very smart russian programmer who indented that way. Or something similar, I don't remember off hand. At first I ignored it, then I got to where I had to 'fix' at least the code on the screen around what I was working on. Now I have given up. :) But once I fix it or write it, it becomes Allman (BSD) style C. As far as the diffs? Well, I let Sore-Safe take care of that. :) I do enjoy my petty torments. jcm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 16:30:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A8C37B698 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA03670; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:24:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAfiaq6g; Tue Jan 23 17:24:37 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05043; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:30:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101240030.RAA05043@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) To: kruptos@netzero.net (Kevin Brunelle) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 00:30:12 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3A6E03C7.79F32AAE@netzero.net> from "Kevin Brunelle" at Jan 23, 2001 05:20:55 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Okay, I was not able to find out for certain, but I believe that the > school retains the right to own the rights to all work done for classes. I'm not a lawyer, but I've had to deal with this topic and those like it (e.g. non-competition agreements, assignment of patent rights, etc.) during a professional career of over two decades. Ask the University legal council; they are there to answer such questions. I won't comment on specific hearsay since it could have been garbled in the translation, and was out of context. I will make a couple of general comments based on my own experience, though: 1) No matter what license you use, you can always release code under a different license, so long as it is not a derivative work based on code under a particular license. Derivative works of GPL'ed code are GPL'ed. If you can get assignment of rights, you can release the code under a different license. This is what The Free Software Foundation required for the GNU utilities, and it's what the Regents of the University of California, Berkeley required for BSD UNIX contributions. 2) You retain all rights to your code, unless you have entered into a work for hire contract, or otherwise explicitly ceded those rights (this is called an assignment of rights) under conract. Contracts are not legally binding, without consideration. 3) Most of his assumptions about license are incorrect, since GPL does not require that you publish the code, and you only grant rights when you publish under a particular license, so you can create proprietary derivate works of GPL'ed code, all you want. 4) When working as a team, if the intent is publication, there should be a single license, since publication should be useful. A UCBL/GPL licensed combination is not legal to distribute as precompiled binaries. 5) GPL'ed style guides and assignment notes and directions have severability. Unless your code is derived from his code, it's not enforcible. For "directions", see point #2. IMO, if he forces you to use his code as a starting base for every project, he's not teaching you how to do what you are paying him to teach you, unless you are paying him to teach you how to write only parts of programs, never a whole product. If you have to live with this guy, I'd really go after use of process patented algorithms, particularly those belonging to your university. I understand what the guy thinks he is achieving, but he's not operating on sound legal advice. As a former IBM employee, IBM refused to let us use GPL'ed code that might embody IBM patents, on the legal theory that it would grant royalty-free license to use those patents, and in granting that to one, federal law requires you grant it to others, on a non-discriminatory basis. I trust their lawyers interpretation of the law. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 16:39:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E33C37B69E for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:39:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.courts.govt.nz (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA08124; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:39:25 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200101240039.NAA08124@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> To: void Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Dan Langille Subject: Who's this Kate person? Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 00:39:25 GMT X-Mailer: Endymion MailMan Professional Edition v3.0.29 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ben wrote in his sig... > -- > Ben > > "I told Paddy no, I told Steve no, I told Paul no, and Ben fell asleep." > --Kate C. (no, different Ben, I would have stayed up) Now please share the story behind this sig.... --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 17:15:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2456837B6B6 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #1) id 14LETe-000114-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 01:11:58 +0000 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 01:11:58 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: j mckitrick Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silly C style question Message-ID: <20010124011158.W92905@hand.dotat.at> References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200101231023.f0NANZI18506@dungeon.home> <20010123180351.C26758@futuresouth.com> <20010124002214.B9483@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010124002214.B9483@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > >That's funny you say that. I inherited a codebase from a very smart russian >programmer who indented that way. Or something similar, I don't remember >off hand. At first I ignored it, then I got to where I had to 'fix' at >least the code on the screen around what I was working on. Now I have given >up. :) But once I fix it or write it, it becomes Allman (BSD) style C. Messing up the indentation style of code like that is a stoning offense. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "If I didn't see it with my own eyes I would never have believed it!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 18: 1: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D16837B400 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:00:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010124020013.YRCK2567.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:00:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3A6E3744.F5490EFE@home.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:00:36 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Scheidt Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > :Duncan Barclay wrote: > : > :> > Keep in mind that we're talking about one theoretical phone that > :> > can supposedly get coverage anywhere in the world. The analog > :> > portion would be intended for use primarily in the US, in those > :> > places where you can't get GSM, TDMA, or CDMA coverage. > :> > :> Africa is buying up a lot of Europe's old Analog equipment. > : > :Analog cell-phone equipment? I don't think so. > :Pre-GSM, Europe suffered a patchwork of incompatible analog networks. > :That equipment has the value of scrap-metal by now. > : > > I know that a bunch of Ex-US AMPS equipment has ended up in various bits of > china, and Africa. It's cheap, eh? > > David > And I hear the basestations are controlled by 80286's running Linux :) Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 18:27:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380DC37B400 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16353; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:24:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:24:53 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Rob Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA In-Reply-To: <3A6E3744.F5490EFE@home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Rob wrote: :> I know that a bunch of Ex-US AMPS equipment has ended up in various bits of :> china, and Africa. It's cheap, eh? :> :> David :> : :And I hear the basestations are controlled by 80286's running Linux :) You seriously over-estimate the computing power that gets thrown at telephony. Motorola's (Well, DSC made the hardware) cell switch was driven by Z-80s until just a few years ago, when the upgrade was made to PPC chips. Of course, the RP-1 ran the Z80 code in emulation mode. Base stations have less computing power than that, but it tends to purpose built hardware. (Linux is unlikely -- (at least) two ofhte bigger infrastructure suppliers are UNIX source licensees.) David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 19: 4: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B4337B69F for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b109.otenet.gr [195.167.121.237]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f0O33c515153; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 05:03:38 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0O2MVj28050; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 04:22:31 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 04:22:31 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Paul Murphy Cc: Kevin Brunelle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Finally took the plunge Message-ID: <20010124042231.A28003@hades.hell.gr> References: <3A693DD0.603CC6E3@netzero.net> <3A6A7E71.364E6D6B@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <3A6A7E71.364E6D6B@home.com>; from pnmurphy@home.com on Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 10:15:13PM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 10:15:13PM -0800, Paul Murphy wrote: > Kevin Brunelle wrote: > > > > BTW: Just in case, you might want to get "The 12 Steps for Getting Away > > from Win95 and other MS Products." It can help you from falling back into > > your old habits. Then again, I still haven't hit the withdrawal stage > > I can proudly say that it is the reverse for me. I keep trying to to get to > the command prompt on a Windows box by typing ctl-alt-F1, and 'ls' for a > directory listing. heh. reminds me of those days that i programmed a little amusement in assembly for my DOS boxen, that was called 'clear.com'. i bet you can all guess what it did. and then i no longer saw that ugly error when i typed: C:\> clear - giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 20: 4:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D18C37B401 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C7C43575B7; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:04:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:04:13 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Duncan Idaho Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Dune ? Re: gnu/11562: tar verification doesn't work Message-ID: <20010123220413.A86050@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Duncan Idaho , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <200101232050.f0NKo6i83502@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101232050.f0NKo6i83502@freefall.freebsd.org>; from sydney13@mail.com on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:50:06PM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:50:06PM -0800, Duncan Idaho scribbled: | The following reply was made to PR gnu/11562; it has been noted by GNATS. Hi Duncan, I am just noticing your name to be something I recognize. "Duncan Idaho" is a character who serves the House of Atreides in Dune, the novel series. Is this your real name? or is it just a net identity? If this is your real name, did it come from the novel? :) -Another Dune fan... Michael -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 20:18:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D2E37B401 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (r12.bfm.org [216.127.220.108]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:20:15 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010123220250.00a08790@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:02:50 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010123135847.009c9400@mail85.pair.com> <20010123125210.A21362@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <3A6E03C7.79F32AAE@netzero.net> <20010123144145.A6437@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 00:01 24-01-2001 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >We should really found the Church of Beastie so people in such >predicaments could argue that writing GPLed code was contrary to their >religious beliefs... All kidding aside, as a serious Buddhist I *do* find GPL essentially contradicting my religious beliefs. One of our precepts is "do not take what is not given to you." Forcing anyone who makes any changes to my code to release them to me is against that precept. I can either release my software as binary only, or release it with source code under a BSD (or similar) license. But I cannot in good conscience use GPL. The Buddha also expressly prohibit his disciples from proselytizing, while GPL is full of proselytizing. I am not sure how seriously the teacher would take the claim the student belongs to the Church of Beastie (even if technically he should), but he would have no legal grounds against a student who told him he was a Buddhist and said using GPL was against his religion. I actually did once ask my Buddhist minister (who also happens to be a programmer) what he thought of Stallman. He did not recognize the name at first, but then I mentioned he was the guy who insisted all software must be free. He shook his head in disaproval, then said Stallman was naive. He also told me not to use GPL. Come to think of it, even a Christian can easily argue against GPL on religious grounds: The founder of Christianity said: "Worthy is a worker of his pay" (or something very close to that, perhaps he said "servant" rather than "worker", but the point is the same). I would not be surprised if most major religions found GPL against their basic principles if their teachers had a good understanding of the real implications of GPL. A student could discuss this with his minister, then tell the teacher with clear conscience and firm legal grounds using GPL was against his religion. At least in the US the teacher/school would have no option but let the student use a more acceptable license. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 20:18:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F5F37B402 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:18:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (r12.bfm.org [216.127.220.108]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:20:20 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010123221457.00a07e70@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:14:57 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) In-Reply-To: <200101240030.RAA05043@usr08.primenet.com> References: <3A6E03C7.79F32AAE@netzero.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 00:30 24-01-2001 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >IMO, if he forces you to use his code as a starting base for >every project, he's not teaching you how to do what you are >paying him to teach you Well, there you go. I was not thinking of it from that perspective: You as the student are paying the teacher. Any code he gives you as a starting code is work for hire (done by him for you), hence you hold all copyrights to the starting base. Even if he could argue he was hired by the entire group of students who own the code collectively, he still cannot force you to release your contributions under GPL (or any other license of *his* choice) because you don't work for him, he works for you. What it all boils down to, IMHO, the guy has a very big ego. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 20:47:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7187C37B400 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 499BA575B7; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:48:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:48:00 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Kevin Brunelle Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) Message-ID: <20010123224800.B88688@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Kevin Brunelle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3.0.6.32.20010123135847.009c9400@mail85.pair.com> <20010123125210.A21362@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <3A6E03C7.79F32AAE@netzero.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A6E03C7.79F32AAE@netzero.net>; from kruptos@netzero.net on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 05:20:55PM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 05:20:55PM -0500, Kevin Brunelle scribbled: | > On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:08:22PM -0800, John Baldwin wrote: Any intellectual product produced by any student is, by default, the student's. Your English professor would have to ask your permission before publishing your paper, and your CS professor is no exception to that. The only time when the product is actually the school's, is when you sign a contract with the school signing over the rights (usually for a research grant). i.e. You only lose your property/intellectual rights when you sign a piece of legal document that says you want to do so. Forcing you to license something in a certain way, is grounds for serious lawsuits in intellectual property. In a sense, he has literally robbed you of your intellectual property rights. American law protects "property rights" to the utmost. Heck, they had an Amendment to the Constitution for that. You may wish to inform the professor of his illegal activities by an anonymous media. Ask your school's free law service. Most schools provide a free legal consulting service via their law schools' faculty and students. I am very, very certain they will give you that answer. (Because I had asked before.) Remember, you cannot fight a professor while taking his/her course. Even if you are not taking his course, protect yourself by checking all of the legal and school rules on such things. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 20:58:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winnie.fit.edu (fit.edu [163.118.5.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C527637B400 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:58:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from netzero.net (rm305w-b.campbell.fit.edu [163.118.216.112]) by winnie.fit.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA11748 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:59:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A6E610F.79B2F69C@netzero.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:58:55 -0500 From: Kevin Brunelle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) References: <3A6E03C7.79F32AAE@netzero.net> <3.0.6.32.20010123221457.00a07e70@mail85.pair.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What it all boils down to, IMHO, the guy has a very big ego. What it all boils down to is this guy is my advisor. I am stuck with him for the next few years. I could get another advisor -- heck advisor at my school just means the nearest person in your department with a Ph.D., but avoiding him would be impossible. He teaches several classes that I need to graduate. I plan on fighting this issue, and bringing it up when and where I need to but I don't plan on winning. But then again, what fun is fighting if you know the outcome. I will take some of the advice that was offered and try to deal with this in a manner that won't get me on this guy's sh^t list. Oh, well. Such is life. When I leave here with that slip of paper all this garbage will be behind me -- so I can start fresh on a whole new pile of even worse garbage. And we wonder why the suicide rate is up. ;-) [Note: I am not suicidal, nor do I condone those who are. I must say this to avoid the 0xffffffff messages that will fly into my mailbox if I don't. I know suicide isn't funny and should always be taken as if the treat were real, but I think we take life too seriously as it is!] Kevin Brunelle -- "Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 23 21: 9: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09B337B401 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:08:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (r12.bfm.org [216.127.220.108]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:10:50 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010123230914.009c2970@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:09:14 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) In-Reply-To: <3A6E610F.79B2F69C@netzero.net> References: <3A6E03C7.79F32AAE@netzero.net> <3.0.6.32.20010123221457.00a07e70@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 23:58 23-01-2001 -0500, Kevin Brunelle wrote: >Oh, well. Such is life. Yes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 0:42:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3E237B402 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 00:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #1) id 14LLVZ-0002XN-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:42:25 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: history of FreeBSD development model Message-Id: Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:42:25 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was wondering recently where the FreeBSD development model came from: who decided which tools to use and why? Was it simply because cvs and gnats were the only options for an open source project at that time? Was it a big leap from the patchset regime to something more like a commercial setup? Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "If I didn't see it with my own eyes I would never have believed it!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 3:16:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns5.pacific.net.au (ns5.pacific.net.au [203.143.252.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C2037B69F for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 03:15:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp12.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.12]) by ns5.pacific.net.au (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA26394; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 22:15:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0OBGYm22317; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:16:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200101241116.f0OBGYm22317@dungeon.home> To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: silly C style question References: <20010122170600.D4456@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200101231023.f0NANZI18506@dungeon.home> <20010123180351.C26758@futuresouth.com> In-Reply-To: <20010123180351.C26758@futuresouth.com> from "Matthew D. Fuller" at "Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:03:51 -0600" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:16:34 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23rd January 2001, "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: >On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 08:23:35PM +1000, a little birdie told me >that Stephen McKay remarked >> >> Use neither of these! Use: >> >> if (i == 0) >> { >> foo(i); >> bar(i); >> } >But indenting the braces?! That's a stoning offense. I can't read it to >save my life. Go on! Give it a go! It grows on you. And it's logical too. Just think of the language components like a parser would and group logical units together. >And lemme tell ya, when you get 70 or 80,000 lines of code >with that style, and re-indent it all, it makes one hell of a cvs diff. I know I'm not popular when "indent" can't generate my style. It can't even come close. Maybe I should fix the bugs in "indent"... Anyway reindenting is a bad idea if the original code has any identifiable style. Go ahead and reindent the stuff that is erratically arranged (I've seen plenty of it), but leave the rest alone. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 3:23:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout03.sul.t-online.com (mailout03.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E3937B404 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 03:23:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd07.sul.t-online.com by mailout03.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14LO0I-0000Qw-03; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:22:18 +0100 Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (520050424122-0001@[62.158.39.103]) by fmrl07.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 14LNzx-2C9PMGC; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:21:57 +0100 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AA34AB0C; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:23:50 +0100 (CET) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D512914A44; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:21:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:21:37 +0100 To: Stephen McKay Cc: j mckitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: good example kernel code Message-ID: <20010124122137.A13335@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: alex@cichlids.cichlids.com, Stephen McKay , j mckitrick , chat@freebsd.org References: <20010122125839.A3300@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200101231037.f0NAbjI22950@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101231037.f0NAbjI22950@dungeon.home>; from mckay@thehub.com.au on Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 08:37:45PM +1000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) X-Sender: 520050424122-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Stephen McKay (mckay@thehub.com.au): > For a long time I've considered the ed network driver to be the highest > quality code in FreeBSD. It has been beaten on for 7.5 years now and > still looks good. Have a read of sys/dev/ed/if_ed.c and see if you > don't agree. To be honest: Defenitely not :-) Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 3:24:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns5.pacific.net.au (ns5.pacific.net.au [203.143.252.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A9BE37B69C for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 03:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp12.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.12]) by ns5.pacific.net.au (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA26666; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 22:24:02 +1100 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0OBOgm22341; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:24:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200101241124.f0OBOgm22341@dungeon.home> To: Iain Templeton Cc: chat@freebsd.org, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: silly C style question References: <20010122230447.S10761@rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflex> In-Reply-To: from Iain Templeton at "Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:49:15 +0000" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:24:42 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23rd January 2001, Iain Templeton wrote: >Wow, that is way too close to our standard C style here... although >we use 4 space tabs... > > if > ( > i > == > 0 > ) > { > foo > ( > i > ); > > bar > ( > i > ); > } > >Although, we only do that for really long lines so they fit within 80ish >characters, or for really complex logical expressions. I didn't like it >at first, but I can see the benefits after having to figure out some >code. Imported from Basser Department of Computer Science, University of Sydney? Piers Lauder was mad keen on this diabolical but extremely logical indenting scheme. Example: if ( (id->id_type == NULL) || ( (id->id_type->x_what == xt_arrayof) && (item->x_left->x_what == xt_arrayof) && (id->id_type->x_subtype == item->x_left->x_subtype) && (id->id_type->x_flags & XIS_DIMLESS) ) ) ... Try that one any other way. :-) Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 3:27: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shellyeah.org (zippy.shellyeah.org [140.186.112.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DA90C37B6A2 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 03:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15016 invoked by uid 0); 24 Jan 2001 11:26:46 -0000 Received: from zippy.shellyeah.org (jcm@140.186.112.25) by zippy.shellyeah.org with SMTP; 24 Jan 2001 11:26:46 -0000 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:26:46 -0500 (EST) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Alexander Langer Cc: Stephen McKay , j mckitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: good example kernel code In-Reply-To: <20010124122137.A13335@cichlids.cichlids.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 Jan 2001, Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Stephen McKay (mckay@thehub.com.au): > > > For a long time I've considered the ed network driver to be the highest > > quality code in FreeBSD. It has been beaten on for 7.5 years now and > > still looks good. Have a read of sys/dev/ed/if_ed.c and see if you > > don't agree. > > To be honest: Defenitely not :-) Ah, well, then. Can you suggest an alternative? jcm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 3:31:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns5.pacific.net.au (ns5.pacific.net.au [203.143.252.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BEE037B6A2 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 03:31:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp12.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.12]) by ns5.pacific.net.au (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA26932; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 22:31:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0OBVim22409; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:31:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200101241131.f0OBVim22409@dungeon.home> To: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) Cc: j mckitrick , chat@freebsd.org, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: good example kernel code References: <20010122125839.A3300@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200101231037.f0NAbjI22950@dungeon.home> <20010124122137.A13335@cichlids.cichlids.com> In-Reply-To: <20010124122137.A13335@cichlids.cichlids.com> from Alexander Langer at "Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:21:37 +0100" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:31:44 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 24th January 2001, Alexander Langer wrote: >Thus spake Stephen McKay (mckay@thehub.com.au): > >> For a long time I've considered the ed network driver to be the highest >> quality code in FreeBSD. It has been beaten on for 7.5 years now and >> still looks good. Have a read of sys/dev/ed/if_ed.c and see if you >> don't agree. > >To be honest: Defenitely not :-) Are you making a joke about my "see if you don't agree" negative question? (Sorry, English is like that.) Or do you think there is clearer code to be found elsewhere in FreeBSD? Tschüss, Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 3:43:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout02.sul.t-online.com (mailout02.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C788537B6A6 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 03:43:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd04.sul.t-online.com by mailout02.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14LOJd-0008MP-0C; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:42:17 +0100 Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (520050424122-0001@[62.158.39.103]) by fmrl04.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 14LOJV-19baboC; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:42:09 +0100 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45417AB0C; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:44:05 +0100 (CET) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1AF5114A44; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:41:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:41:43 +0100 From: Alexander Langer To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Stephen McKay , j mckitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: good example kernel code Message-ID: <20010124124143.A14098@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , Jonathon McKitrick , Stephen McKay , j mckitrick , chat@freebsd.org References: <20010124122137.A13335@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@shellyeah.org on Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 06:26:46AM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. X-Sender: 520050424122-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Jonathon McKitrick (jcm@shellyeah.org): > > > For a long time I've considered the ed network driver to be the highest > > > quality code in FreeBSD. It has been beaten on for 7.5 years now and > > > still looks good. Have a read of sys/dev/ed/if_ed.c and see if you > > > don't agree. > > To be honest: Defenitely not :-) > Ah, well, then. Can you suggest an alternative? Well, most of the kernel code. I'd love sys/kern/subr_bus.c, if it didn't use four spaces for second level indents for functions, but indent the args to the opening paranthesis (as the ed drivers does, btw). The good thing with the kernel code is: It's well strucured and easy to read, even if you don't like the style. Do you really tell the following well readable code? static void ed_get_packet __P((struct ed_softc *, char *, /* u_short */ int)); static __inline void ed_rint __P((struct ed_softc *)); static __inline void ed_xmit __P((struct ed_softc *)); static __inline char * ed_ring_copy __P((struct ed_softc *, char *, char *, /* u_short */ int)); static void ed_hpp_set_physical_link __P((struct ed_softc *)); static void ed_hpp_readmem __P((struct ed_softc *, int, unsigned char *, /* u_short */ int)); static void ed_hpp_writemem __P((struct ed_softc *, unsigned char *, /* u_short */ int, /* u_short */ int)); static u_short ed_hpp_write_mbufs __P((struct ed_softc *, struct mbuf *, int)); static u_short ed_pio_write_mbufs __P((struct ed_softc *, struct mbuf *, int)); static void ed_setrcr __P((struct ed_softc *)); static u_int32_t ds_crc __P((u_char *ep)); I worked with the ed driver lately. It's just not what _I_ call high quality code :-) Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 5: 1:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csunb0.leeds.ac.uk (csunb0.leeds.ac.uk [129.11.144.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 229DF37B69E for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 05:01:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from cslin.leeds.ac.uk (csunc0.leeds.ac.uk [129.11.144.3]) by csunb0.leeds.ac.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA19438; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:53:07 GMT Received: from cslin006.leeds.ac.uk (cslin006 [129.11.146.6]) by cslin.leeds.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/) with ESMTP id MAA01575; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:53:08 GMT Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:53:06 +0000 From: Ben Smithurst To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Stephen McKay , j mckitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: silly C style question Message-ID: <20010124125306.C1491@comp.leeds.ac.uk> References: <200101231023.f0NANZI18506@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > if (i = 0) > > generates a bug. Only if you're too stupid to be able to read the warning that produces with appropriate -W flags (just -Wall I think, which quite frankly should default to on). -- Ben Smithurst / csxbcs@comp.leeds.ac.uk / ben@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 6:20:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B45837B69C for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:19:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14LQmD-000DB1-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:19:57 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0OEJuB17039; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:19:56 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:19:55 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Alexander Langer , Stephen McKay , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: good example kernel code Message-ID: <20010124141955.A17005@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010124122137.A13335@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20010124124143.A14098@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010124124143.A14098@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:41:43PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | I'd love sys/kern/subr_bus.c, if it didn't use four spaces for second | level indents for functions, but indent the args to the opening | paranthesis (as the ed drivers does, btw). You mean like the old style function declarations? foo(var1, var2) int var1, long var2 { ... } instead of foo(int var1, int var2) { ... } To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 6:25:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.com (mailout01.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96AD637B69F for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd03.sul.t-online.com by mailout01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14LQqc-0001k9-06; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:24:30 +0100 Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (520050424122-0001@[62.158.39.103]) by fmrl03.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 14LQqX-1Jr4dMC; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:24:25 +0100 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32E2AB0C; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:26:32 +0100 (CET) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7A24414AF2; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:24:25 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:24:25 +0100 From: Alexander Langer To: j mckitrick Cc: Stephen McKay , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: good example kernel code Message-ID: <20010124152425.A25337@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , j mckitrick , Stephen McKay , chat@freebsd.org References: <20010124122137.A13335@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20010124124143.A14098@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20010124141955.A17005@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010124141955.A17005@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 02:19:55PM +0000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. X-Sender: 520050424122-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake j mckitrick (jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org): > | I'd love sys/kern/subr_bus.c, if it didn't use four spaces for second > | level indents for functions, but indent the args to the opening > | paranthesis (as the ed drivers does, btw). > You mean like the old style function declarations? No, I mean foo_bar_baz(int var, some more args so that the line is full, const char* foo); instead of foo_bar_baz(int var, some more... const char* foo); ^^^^ <- four spaces. Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 6:32:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD7937B6A0 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA84020; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:32:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Alexander Langer Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Stephen McKay , j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: good example kernel code References: <20010124122137.A13335@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20010124124143.A14098@cichlids.cichlids.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 Jan 2001 15:32:00 +0100 In-Reply-To: Alexander Langer's message of "Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:41:43 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexander Langer writes: > I'd love sys/kern/subr_bus.c, if it didn't use four spaces for second > level indents for functions, but indent the args to the opening > paranthesis (as the ed drivers does, btw). The ed driver is wrong, subr_bus.c is right. If the reason why you dislike this is that Emacs can't handle it, try: ;; ;; Style(9)-compliant C mode settings ;; (defun knf-c-mode-hook () ;; BSD-style indentation (c-set-style "bsd") ;; Basic indent is 8 spaces (make-local-variable 'c-basic-offset) (setq c-basic-offset 8) ;; Continuation lines are indented 4 spaces (c-set-offset 'statement-cont 4 t) (c-set-offset 'arglist-cont 4 t) (c-set-offset 'arglist-cont-nonempty 4 t) ;; Auto-indent (local-set-key "\C-m" 'newline-and-indent)) (add-hook 'c-mode-hook 'knf-c-mode-hook) I have a variation of this in my .emacs.el, which enables style(9) mode only if buffer-file-name contains "src/sys". Another part of the kernel that should be fairly style(9)-compliant is subr_sbuf.c - at least, I tried to make it so. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 6:40: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout04.sul.t-online.com (mailout04.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC9237B69F for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd05.sul.t-online.com by mailout04.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14LR4D-0005Jf-02; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:38:33 +0100 Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (520050424122-0001@[62.158.39.103]) by fmrl05.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 14LR47-1igQPwC; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:38:27 +0100 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 055BBAB0C; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:40:34 +0100 (CET) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id AC09114AF2; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:38:28 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:38:28 +0100 From: Alexander Langer To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Stephen McKay , j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: good example kernel code Message-ID: <20010124153828.B26042@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Jonathon McKitrick , Stephen McKay , j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010124122137.A13335@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20010124124143.A14098@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 03:32:00PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. X-Sender: 520050424122-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@ofug.org): > > I'd love sys/kern/subr_bus.c, if it didn't use four spaces for second > > level indents for functions, but indent the args to the opening > > paranthesis (as the ed drivers does, btw). > The ed driver is wrong, subr_bus.c is right. If the reason why you > dislike this is that Emacs can't handle it, try: Yes, I didn't say that the ed driver is right :-) I only said, I prefer this style in my personal code. Thanks for the emacs code, though. I can use it :) Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 6:41:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C1737B402 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14LR72-000FW1-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:41:28 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0OEfRd17340; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:41:27 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:41:27 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Alexander Langer , Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: good example kernel code Message-ID: <20010124144127.B17236@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010124122137.A13335@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20010124124143.A14098@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 03:32:00PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | I have a variation of this in my .emacs.el, which enables style(9) | mode only if buffer-file-name contains "src/sys". Very interesting. could you point me to an example of some code you have written in /src that is more your own personal style? I'm curious to see the difference. jcm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonathon McKitrick ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 6:42:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60E537B402 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:42:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14LR8C-000Fex-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:42:40 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0OEgdZ17361 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:42:40 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:30:25 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Alexander Langer Subject: Re: good example kernel code Message-ID: <20010124143025.A17236@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010124122137.A13335@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20010124124143.A14098@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20010124141955.A17005@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010124152425.A25337@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010124152425.A25337@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 03:24:25PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > | I'd love sys/kern/subr_bus.c, if it didn't use four spaces for second | > | level indents for functions, but indent the args to the opening | > | paranthesis (as the ed drivers does, btw). Hmmm. Maybe they fixed it. It looks like all the args are indented to the parentheses, from what I can see. jcm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonathon McKitrick ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 6:45:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63EE937B698 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:45:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA84099; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:43:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: j mckitrick Cc: Alexander Langer , Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: good example kernel code References: <20010124122137.A13335@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20010124124143.A14098@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20010124144127.B17236@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 Jan 2001 15:43:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: j mckitrick's message of "Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:41:27 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick writes: > | I have a variation of this in my .emacs.el, which enables style(9) > | mode only if buffer-file-name contains "src/sys". > Very interesting. could you point me to an example of some code you have > written in /src that is more your own personal style? I'm curious to see > the difference. /usr/src/lib/libfetch/*.[ch] /usr/src/usr.bin/fetch/*.[ch] Plain Emacs "bsd" style with four-character indents. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 6:48: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D0237B400 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14LRD7-000Ltc-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:47:45 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0OEliK17470; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:47:44 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:47:44 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .net, musings, and assorted ramblings Message-ID: <20010124144744.C17236@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010109182342.A8463@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010109193013.0493ab50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010109193013.0493ab50@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 07:31:58PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 07:31:58PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: | It shouldn't really be called .Net, but rather .Not or .Naught. | | It's a "placeholder" strategy while Mr. Ballmer tries to figure out | what Microsoft can conquer next.... And while Microsoft fights to get | the DoJ case thrown out on appeal. (All of the moves that'd be | most advantageous to Microsoft right now would prejudice that | case.) Funny you should say that. Supposedly .net is to be a competitor against Java. After reading about the settlement with Sun in the news today, I can see why they have been planning this. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 10:45:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sttlpop5.sttl.uswest.net (sttlpop5.sttl.uswest.net [206.81.192.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E85137B699 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5139 invoked by alias); 24 Jan 2001 18:43:25 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org@fixme Received: (qmail 2577 invoked by uid 0); 24 Jan 2001 18:42:36 -0000 Received: from www.a6l.net (HELO a6l.net) (63.229.13.49) by sttlpop5.sttl.uswest.net with SMTP; 24 Jan 2001 18:42:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 69645 invoked by uid 1002); 24 Jan 2001 18:42:53 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Loki's SOF on FreeBSD? From: Kevin Mills Date: 24 Jan 2001 10:42:53 -0800 Message-ID: <85ofwwpz9u.fsf@diablo.in.a6l.net> Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A very thoughtful(?) relative gave me Loki's Soldier of Fortune for Linux as a gift. Is there any chance in getting this to run under FreeBSD? According to the game's manual, I have a supported graphics card (a Voodoo3). Has anyone attempted this? Anyone have any pointers for me? Thank you! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 15: 8:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kwanon.research.canon.com.au (kwanon.research.canon.com.au [203.12.172.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237F237B402 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:08:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellmann.research.canon.com.au (bellmann.research.canon.com.au [10.5.0.3]) by kwanon.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id D817C8A8A0; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:15:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from elph.research.canon.com.au (elph.research.canon.com.au [203.12.174.253]) by bellmann.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE3058B10; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:00:05 +1100 (EST) Received: from blow.research.canon.com.au (blow.research.canon.com.au [10.8.1.4]) by elph.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9965E2; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:07:45 +1100 (EST) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:08:00 +1100 (EST) From: Iain Templeton To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: silly C style question In-Reply-To: <200101241124.f0OBOgm22341@dungeon.home> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 Jan 2001, Stephen McKay wrote: > Imported from Basser Department of Computer Science, University of Sydney? > Piers Lauder was mad keen on this diabolical but extremely logical indenting > scheme. > Hmm, quite possible. I don't know where the proponents of this scheme came from (it was developed 5-10 years ago), but given that we are in Syndey that is quite possible. I think UniTas seemed to have a fairly inconsistent style between the different lecturers, but vaguely Allman style, or perhaps K&R. > Example: > > if > ( > (id->id_type == NULL) > || > ( > (id->id_type->x_what == xt_arrayof) > && > (item->x_left->x_what == xt_arrayof) > && > (id->id_type->x_subtype == item->x_left->x_subtype) > && > (id->id_type->x_flags & XIS_DIMLESS) > ) > ) > ... > Yes, exactly, we alas sometimes have statements that are that complex. The same dealing with hardware sometimes. You know, reg = ( (field1 << REG_FIELD1_SHFT) | (field2 << REG_FIELD2_SHFT) | (field3 << REG_FIELD3_SHFT) ); Names changed to protect the innocent (and my job). Iain To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 24 18:16:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA74A37B400 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:16:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010125021612.NUST27018.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:16:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3A6F8C7F.BA0FA1C6@home.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:16:31 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Brunelle Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C style continued.... (Craig and Terry) References: <3.0.6.32.20010123091354.009de7c0@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010123095930.00a14550@mail85.pair.com> <3A6DD0B2.B473AF52@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kevin Brunelle wrote: > > Okay, time for me to jump in, let me make it very clear where I stand on > this issue. I am K&R all the way. I started learning that way and it > always made the most sense to me. Besides, K&R is beautiful -- IMO. But > the real reason I am even contributing to this conversation has to do > with code you write outside your control. Every bit of code I write for > myself I write in K&R, but for a college class that I am in it must > follow the style guide. What does the style guide say? Let's just say > that you could scare small children with the code submitted for that > class. It is a mixture of all the worst ideas ever conceived. It is very > close to some code posted before (included below). Now that is ugly! Not > only is this a bad thing, because it teaches new programmers how to > write really ugly code as habit; but, you cannot deviate from style. My > first program was turned in in K&R style; 40% was the max. grade I could > get on it. Yeah, a good coder can write in whatever style he/she needs > to but they don't have to like it. The only time I was happy writing > code for that class was when we were paired up for final projects. I was > paired with a person who was a mediocre programmer at best. I was able > to write 95% of the code, and he made it fit the style guide. ;-) > > I guess what I am wasting your bandwidth and hard drive space to say is: > You are going to have to write ugly code for other people, do you have > to write it for yourself too? > > A little side note here: This teacher is totally stuck in his way of > doing things. Another issue I had with him was licensing. He wanted all > the code in class GPL'd I wanted my code to be BSD'd. He said that was > fine, but any code that wasn't GPL wasn't graded. It took a week to get > him to elaborate on the issue any further than that, and I am still > writing under the GPL for the class unless "... an act of god forbids > it." > > >if ( > > i > > == > > 0 > > ) > > { > > foo( > > i > > ) > > ; > > > > bar( > > i > > ) > > ; > > } > > Kevin Brunelle > -- Is the above code that new Perl I hear so much about? :) Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 2:15:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (SHW1-154.accesscable.net [24.71.144.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B94837B402; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 02:15:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.2/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0PADKr16469; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 06:13:20 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 06:13:20 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Cc: Subject: Open Source Development Laboratory ... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is this something that FreeBSD/BSDi are/is looking at becoming a member of, or is this something that is purely a Linux thing? http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010123S0019 Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 5:43: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A29BC37B401; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 05:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f0PDgeB62364; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:42:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:42:39 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson Reply-To: Robert Watson To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > Is this something that FreeBSD/BSDi are/is looking at becoming a member > of, or is this something that is purely a Linux thing? > > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010123S0019 > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 6:23:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl (wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl [131.155.56.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CE337B404 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 06:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from karelj@localhost) by wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0PEMRI15651; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:22:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from karelj) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:21:07 +0100 From: "Karel J. Bosschaart" To: Kevin Mills Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Loki's SOF on FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20010125152107.A15428@wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl> Reply-To: K.J.Bosschaart@wtb.tue.nl References: <85ofwwpz9u.fsf@diablo.in.a6l.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <85ofwwpz9u.fsf@diablo.in.a6l.net>; from kmills@a6l.net on Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 10:42:53AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 10:42:53AM -0800, Kevin Mills wrote: > > A very thoughtful(?) relative gave me Loki's Soldier of Fortune for Linux as > a gift. Is there any chance in getting this to run under FreeBSD? According > to the game's manual, I have a supported graphics card (a Voodoo3). > > Has anyone attempted this? Anyone have any pointers for me? > Yes, I got Soldier of Fortune running in FreeBSD, either with Voodoo2 or Matrox G400. I don't know about Voodoo3 though. On http://wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl/freebsd/sof.txt I wrote down how I installed SOF, but it is actually a horribly difficult way of doing it. I think it will be much more painless to do everything as normal user, not root, being sure you have permission to write to the install directory. So in a nutshell, install the extra libs from http://www.lokigames.com/~overcode/ut-compat.tar.gz and do 'sh setup.sh' (setup.sh from the CD, as normal user). Then, again as normal user, install the patches (optionally) that you can download from Loki Games to upgrade to the most recent version. Some issues that I came accross: * The problem with running the installer/patchers as root was in my case that for some reason FreeBSD thought that Linux binaries included in the archive were FreeBSD binaries. As a common call in Linux translates to 'shutdown' in FreeBSD, if unwrapped, you can guess what happens to your machine when run as root... unfortunately, it doesn't even shutdown properly and you have to touch the reset button and watch the fsck during startup. It is unclear to me why this happens; when unpacking the archive, the binaries _are_ correctly branded. * Check your console and/or dmesg for core dumps or segfaults, especially from xdelta. If this happens, install or patching did not succeed despite the messages from the install script, and the game will most likely crash during startup. However, if you run as normal user or follow the instructions in above mentioned page, you shouldn't see it. * I'm rather disappointed with the performance of the game; on my machine (K6-2 at 500 MHz, 128 MB RAM, Voodoo2-SLI and G400) it feels quite slow. I've read the FAQ at Loki Games and browsed their newsgroup (which I can recommend!) and have read some tips that improved performance but it still is too slow for me to have fun playing :-(. I installed the game also on a real Linux installation on the same machine (Slackware 7.0) but it wasn't considerably faster there. I downloaded the Windows demo version and will install that one (again on the same machine) to see if it is faster. The slow performance surprises me somewhat... SOF is Quake2 based and I would expect it therefore to be well playable on my machine. Unreal Tournament and Quake3 Arena (Demo version) both play well, also on FreeBSD. Not super fast, but I'm pleased with it (UT typically 20 - 25 fps on 1024x768 with Voodoo2-SLI, I didn't get that with the G400 yet). * I will try to reinstall and update my guidelines hopefully soon to have an easier way described than it is now :-). * Installing the game is one thing, but you need the Voodoo3 card going which is another story... for Voodoo2, the linux Glide2 drivers can easily be installed, "available" at the 3dfx site. Quotes because it appears down a lot :-/. Looking at http://www.xfree86.org/4.0.2/Status2.html#2 , Voodoo3 is supported in both X versions 3.3.6 and 4.0.2. However, you need some extra libs in /compat/linux and also some extra stuff in linux_ioctl.[ch], just like with the G400 I assume, when using the X drivers. Check the archives of the -multimedia list, the patches were posted there (by Stephen Hocking if I remember correctly). You also might have a look at http://wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl/freebsd/hwaccel.html , this is how I got the G400 working with acceleration. Still planning to add instructions for installing the necessary linux stuff to make linux games work - the information is actually mostly in the -multimedia archive, but a webpage is easier to read, isn't it :-). Eeer, well, I hope I didn't scare you off running SOF... don't hesitate to mail me if you have questions or problems. For me, installing linux games became large part of the fun :-). At least I like it a lot more than the hopeless reinstalling of (newest) drivers in Windows to make those crashes go away... Good luck! Karel. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 8: 4:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mothra.ecs.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F096B37B6A4 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mothra.ecs.csus.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0PFxn093411; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 07:59:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 07:59:49 -0800 (PST) From: Joseph Scott X-X-Sender: To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, The Hermit Hacker wrote: # # Is this something that FreeBSD/BSDi are/is looking at becoming a member # of, or is this something that is purely a Linux thing? # # http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010123S0019 There is also a mention of this on /. that I noticed. After a quick look around their site I came across their mission statement : "OSDL provides Open Source developers with the computing resources needed to build data center and telco class enhancements into Linux and its Open Source software stack, enabling Linux to become the leading Operating System for e-Business development and deployment." I wrote them explaining that their name was misleading if this was their only goal. The reasoning was that there are more Open Source projects out there, not to mention os's, than Linux. So either their name should be changed to "Linux Development Labs" or their mission statement should be redone. I haven't heard anything back yet. -Joseph To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 9: 7:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shellyeah.org (zippy.shellyeah.org [140.186.112.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E72637B401 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:07:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24511 invoked by uid 0); 25 Jan 2001 17:07:12 -0000 Received: from zippy.shellyeah.org (jcm@140.186.112.25) by zippy.shellyeah.org with SMTP; 25 Jan 2001 17:07:12 -0000 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:07:11 -0500 (EST) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Stephen McKay Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silly C style question In-Reply-To: <200101241116.f0OBGYm22317@dungeon.home> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Use neither of these! Use: > >> > >> if (i == 0) > >> { > >> foo(i); > >> bar(i); > >> } > Go on! Give it a go! It grows on you. And it's logical too. Just > think of the language components like a parser would and group logical > units together. I see your point, but not indenting the brace saves a keystroke, and that can add up. Also, following the column straight down from the 'if' or other conditional takes you directly to where the execution path continues. I like that better than just following the indentation. jcm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 11:42: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from LadaBSD.blu.it (unknown [213.255.45.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01CC37B6B8 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from LadaBSD.blu.it (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by LadaBSD.blu.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA01629; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:40:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mladavac@surfeu.at) From: Marino Ladavac Reply-To: mladavac@surfeu.at To: brad.knowles@skynet.be, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GSM vs. CDMA Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:35:45 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01012520400700.01624@LadaBSD.blu.it> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Concerning the Nokia phones with a built-in modem, you are overlooking an obvious one: 9110(i)*. In fact, it comes with a serial cable, does not require any additional software, and this mail is sent to you using one of those and a FreeBSD notebook with a trivial user space ppp configuration. Works like a charm. Regards, Marino Ladavac * OK, 9110(i) is not really a phone; it's a GEOS/DOS-based '486 PDA with a phone built in :) It would be interesting to get FreeBSD booting on it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 11:50:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6865437B6A4; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:50:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f0PJoJB66021; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:50:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:50:19 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Err. That was supposed to be a response, not an empty message. :-) I was also interested in this, but a rapid perusal of the web site for Open Source Development Labs seemed to indicate a largely Linux thrust. If you look at the mission statement and the list of sponsors, this is fairly clear. On the other hand, their mission statement does target the entire application stack above Linux, so we may benefit from application work. Jordan has previously made some inroads on the Linux standard base, and it's possible we could have some impact in the work targetted by the labs. Right now, the focus appears to have been on Linux kernel features. I see there being at least a few ways we could impact their decision making and funding process, and it's worth discussing these before following through: 1) We can try to become active members of the open source development labs, and remind them that Linux is not the be all and end all of open source operating systems. The *BSD systems exist, Darwin, as well as GNU's hurd project. They have online membership and comment forums, and participating in those would be useful. Also, they have a Linux community liaison, Tim O'Reilly, who might be open to working with a broader definition of "Open Source", possibly championing the cause, although possibly not. It's clear there's a financial motivation for the supporting companies to target Linux, however, so that brings us to point 2. 2) We can try to identify sponsors on their current list willing to push for a greater FreeBSD focus (IBM, for example, by virtue of Whistle), or we can identify companies we would like to have join the Open Source Development Labs. Possible targets here might include Apple and BSDi, who might benefit from library and application work, and improve the focus from our perspective. 3) Another strong source of impact on OSDL will be the participants in work funded by the labs. We can try to remove involved and engaged in the project work and make sure that reports of success in the funded project space make sure the funding benefits all open source systems, not just Linux. That is, that library and application projects indicate that their funding should not be restricted to developing to the Linux platform, or place bias against other operating system support. Reports back to OSDL could include information on portability issues, cross-platform issues, and not just Linux. There are probably other things we could be doing here, and I'd welcome discussion. Usually, it's better when campaigning for change, to try and debate through the options ourselves, decide on a course of action, and then work in a concerted way. Working as individuals and in an un-coordinated way results in a less pleasant impact, especially when it involves flames. Witness the recent decision by tucows to drop BSD as a support platform as a result of the apparently fractious response they received as a result of an uncoordinated campaign. Flaming people does no good, and an organized campaign is a good idea. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > Is this something that FreeBSD/BSDi are/is looking at becoming a member > > of, or is this something that is purely a Linux thing? > > > > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010123S0019 > > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy > > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 12: 9:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B3637B69B for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:08:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00303; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:04:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAtOaaKa; Thu Jan 25 13:04:23 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA26738; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:08:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101252008.NAA26738@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: silly C style question To: mckay@thehub.com.au (Stephen McKay) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:08:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller), jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mckay@thehub.com.au In-Reply-To: <200101241116.f0OBGYm22317@dungeon.home> from "Stephen McKay" at Jan 24, 2001 09:16:34 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >But indenting the braces?! That's a stoning offense. I can't read it to > >save my life. > > Go on! Give it a go! It grows on you. And it's logical too. Just > think of the language components like a parser would and group logical > units together. It makes ^D odd to use in vi when autoindent is turned on. You can also re-argue the '{' at the end of the line from the having to hit the return key perspective. > Anyway reindenting is a bad idea if the original code has any identifiable > style. Go ahead and reindent the stuff that is erratically arranged (I've > seen plenty of it), but leave the rest alone. Mixing code styles is a bad thing, no matter what. If you take erratically arranged code and reindent it, you should probably only go so far as to make it ratically (maybe I'm being chalant?) arranged, and not cause the code to change style. Either do everything, or do nothing, but please don't waffle in between, or you'll be messing with the cognition of the person trying to read it to the point of promoting mistakes. Even a consistently bad style is better than mixed style. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 12:14:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (unknown [169.237.8.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1113637B69D; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0PKTf801281; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:29:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200101252029.f0PKTf801281@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Jan 2001 06:13:20 -0400." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:29:41 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Is this something that FreeBSD/BSDi are/is looking at becoming a member > of, or is this something that is purely a Linux thing? > > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010123S0019 It's purely a Linux thing. BSDi tried to get involved in a couple of that sort of thing, and I've been putting my oar in where I could, but the combined lack of manpower and lack of funding has prettymuch left us out in the cold. 8( -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 12:25:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB2E37B698; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f0PKOoB66406; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:24:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:24:50 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Typed that in a rush, typo of some importance: On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Robert Watson wrote: > 3) Another strong source of impact on OSDL will be the participants in > work funded by the labs. We can try to remove involved and engaged in the s/remove/remain/ Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 12:46:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9828437B401; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA118998; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:45:52 -0700 Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdQlUCEa; Thu Jan 25 13:45:40 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA27797; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:45:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101252045.NAA27797@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... To: rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG (Robert Watson) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:45:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-core@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Robert Watson" at Jan 25, 2001 02:50:19 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > 2) We can try to identify sponsors on their current list willing to push > for a greater FreeBSD focus (IBM, for example, by virtue of Whistle), or > we can identify companies we would like to have join the Open Source > Development Labs. Possible targets here might include Apple and BSDi, > who might benefit from library and application work, and improve the focus > from our perspective. FYI, Last December, IBM committed $1B for marketing of Linux. They also have committed 1500 engineers. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 13:21:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83A137B404; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f0PLKtB67179; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:20:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:20:55 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Mike Smith Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... In-Reply-To: <200101252029.f0PKTf801281@mass.dis.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Mike Smith wrote: > > Is this something that FreeBSD/BSDi are/is looking at becoming a member > > of, or is this something that is purely a Linux thing? > > > > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010123S0019 > > It's purely a Linux thing. BSDi tried to get involved in a couple of > that sort of thing, and I've been putting my oar in where I could, but > the combined lack of manpower and lack of funding has prettymuch left us > out in the cold. 8( BTW, the CNN article includes a quote that might be worth following up on: According to OSDL Lab Director Tim Witham, "anybody developing under an open-source license can use the lab on a first-come, first-served basis. http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/computing/01/25/linux.lab.idg/index.html Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 13:34:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F3937B6A3 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA65920; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:34:17 -0700 Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdUsg1ia; Thu Jan 25 14:34:11 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28804; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:34:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101252134.OAA28804@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: silly C style question To: mckay@thehub.com.au (Stephen McKay) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:32:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: iain@research.canon.com.au (Iain Templeton), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mckay@thehub.com.au In-Reply-To: <200101241124.f0OBOgm22341@dungeon.home> from "Stephen McKay" at Jan 24, 2001 09:24:42 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > if > ( > (id->id_type == NULL) > || > ( > (id->id_type->x_what == xt_arrayof) > && > (item->x_left->x_what == xt_arrayof) > && > (id->id_type->x_subtype == item->x_left->x_subtype) > && > (id->id_type->x_flags & XIS_DIMLESS) > ) > ) > ... > > Try that one any other way. :-) if( ( id->id_type == NULL) || ( ( id->id_type->x_what == xt_arrayof) && ( item->x_left->x_what == xt_arrayof) && ( id->id_type->x_subtype == item->x_left->x_subtype) && ( id->id_type->x_flags & XIS_DIMLESS))) or, less prettily, something like: if( ( id->id_type == NULL) || ( ( id->id_type->x_what == xt_arrayof) && ( item->x_left->x_what == xt_arrayof) && ( id->id_type->x_subtype == item->x_left->x_subtype) && ( id->id_type->x_flags & XIS_DIMLESS) ) ) PS: The second example is included for those without a "showmatch" option or unable to use "%" effectively in "vi", and with a penchant for needing operators at the front of the line, due to a crippling injury by an HP calculator in their youth, leaving them unable to reasonably program in non-RPN languages, like "C", yet unwilling to stick to "FORTH", where they belong. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 14: 5: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8518137B400 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f0PM4GM12641; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:04:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:04:16 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Terry Lambert Cc: Stephen McKay , Iain Templeton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silly C style question Message-ID: <20010125140416.A12493@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <200101241124.f0OBOgm22341@dungeon.home> <200101252134.OAA28804@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200101252134.OAA28804@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:32:57PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:32:57PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > if > > ( > > (id->id_type == NULL) > > || > > ( > > (id->id_type->x_what == xt_arrayof) > > && > > (item->x_left->x_what == xt_arrayof) > > && > > (id->id_type->x_subtype == item->x_left->x_subtype) > > && > > (id->id_type->x_flags & XIS_DIMLESS) > > ) > > ) > > ... > > > > Try that one any other way. :-) > > if( ( id->id_type == NULL) || > ( ( id->id_type->x_what == xt_arrayof) && > ( item->x_left->x_what == xt_arrayof) && > ( id->id_type->x_subtype == item->x_left->x_subtype) && > ( id->id_type->x_flags & XIS_DIMLESS))) > hmmm, I would have done the following: if ((id->id_type == NULL) || ((id->id_type->x_what == xt_arrayof) && (item->x_left->x_what == xt_arrayof) && (id->id_type->x_subtype == item->x_left->x_subtype) && (id->id_type->x_flags & XIS_DIMLESS))) The lack of a space between the if and the first parenthesis is unclean and violates style(9) and the space after each opening parenthesis and the lack of space before each closing parenthesis is also unclean and inconsistent. If one were being consistent it should be done like this : if ( ( id->id_type == NULL ) || ( ( id->id_type->x_what == xt_arrayof ) && ( item->x_left->x_what == xt_arrayof ) && ( id->id_type->x_subtype == item->x_left->x_subtype ) && ( id->id_type->x_flags & XIS_DIMLESS ) ) ) my $0.02 Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 16:14:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD03937B402 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com ([216.196.73.168]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:12:54 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0Q0Ep360851 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:14:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:14:51 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Genuine Electronic Warfare on Crackers Message-ID: <20010125161451.A60779@rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflex> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just thought this was 2 kewl, d00dz, http://www.securityfocus.com/templates/article.html?id=143 That's bona fide electronic warfare in software, kids. Really scary, but just so cool. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 19:38:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.iadfw.net (mail2.iadfw.net [206.66.12.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1E74F37B698 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:38:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from jason from [64.31.207.237] by mail2.iadfw.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.47) with smtp for sender: id ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:38:23 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <005b01c0874a$21d4d5a0$edcf1f40@pdq.net> From: "Jason Smethers" To: References: <20010125161451.A60779@rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflex> Subject: Re: Genuine Electronic Warfare on Crackers Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:43:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Crist J. Clark" > I just thought this was 2 kewl, d00dz, > > http://www.securityfocus.com/templates/article.html?id=143 > > That's bona fide electronic warfare in software, kids. Really scary, > but just so cool. My common sense guess... No one can really figure out why they waited? Comeon... They were waiting for a financially opportune time - like the current potential for a buy out. The "warfare" bull is the same about the same thing that happened to analog cable boxes. It will be short term and in the not to distant future the "hacking" will likely bypass the card and move to the DSS receiver itself like it did with the analog cable boxes black/gray markets moving from prom chips to making the boxes. Its somewhat obvious that if the media is already broken to the point sending of unauthorized channels with a card change/reprogram then it will stay broken until the security system is redesigned in a sane manner. But that would require a bit more design and planning then is currently put out like with DVD "encryption". As I see it there are three next possible steps for hacking. 1.) Start manufacturing cards that are totally reprogrammable. 2.) Start hacking the proms in the DSS receivers. 3.) Start manufacturing black/gray market DSS receivers. There really isn't anything "devilishly clever" about the current effort. In fact, it is a waste of time in the long run. You can usually only patch something so many times before it can no longer be fixed but needs to be replaced. - Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 21:13:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns5.pacific.net.au (ns5.pacific.net.au [203.143.252.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC4637B401 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp119.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.119]) by ns5.pacific.net.au (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA13098; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:13:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0Q5DkF18296; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:13:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200101260513.f0Q5DkF18296@dungeon.home> To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: silly C style question References: In-Reply-To: from Jonathon McKitrick at "Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:07:11 -0500" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:13:46 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 25th January 2001, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >> >> Use neither of these! Use: >> >> >> >> if (i == 0) >> >> { >> >> foo(i); >> >> bar(i); >> >> } >> Go on! Give it a go! It grows on you. And it's logical too. Just >> think of the language components like a parser would and group logical >> units together. >I see your point, Partial victory! Woohoo! >but not indenting the brace saves a keystroke, and that can add up. Don't be silly! If we were coding simply to minimise keystrokes, we wouldn't use indenting at all! Anyway, it doesn't use an extra keystroke because it is either "space { newline ^T" for mine or "newline ^T { newline" for K&R. (Some of you heathens might use tab instead of ^T. Separate issue.) >Also, following the column straight down from the 'if' or >other conditional takes you directly to where the execution path >continues. I like that better than just following the indentation. So you are agreeing with me? When you run your eye down a column you see the important stuff and when you hit a bracket, you know you have reached the end of a block. Eg: { if (...) { .. } while (...) { .. } x = y; } You see a conditional, a loop and an assignment. One of those "hide the details" editors could present this as: { if (...)... while (...)... x = y; } I don't have such an editor, but I think that way. I assume there is an emacs mode for this. :-) Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 21:19:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns5.pacific.net.au (ns5.pacific.net.au [203.143.252.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41DC37B404 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp119.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.119]) by ns5.pacific.net.au (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA13262; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:18:25 +1100 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0Q5IaF18374; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:18:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200101260518.f0Q5IaF18374@dungeon.home> To: mckay@thehub.com.au Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , "Matthew D. Fuller" , j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: silly C style question References: <200101260513.f0Q5DkF18296@dungeon.home> In-Reply-To: <200101260513.f0Q5DkF18296@dungeon.home> from Stephen McKay at "Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:13:46 +1000" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:18:36 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 26th January 2001, Stephen McKay wrote: >because it is either "space { newline ^T" for mine or "newline ^T { newline" >for K&R. Oops. The other way round, of course! Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 25 21:30:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns5.pacific.net.au (ns5.pacific.net.au [203.143.252.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA3837B400 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp119.dyn249.pacific.net.au [203.143.249.119]) by ns5.pacific.net.au (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA13759; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:30:16 +1100 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0Q5UwF18441; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:30:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200101260530.f0Q5UwF18441@dungeon.home> To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Cc: Terry Lambert , Iain Templeton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: silly C style question References: <200101241124.f0OBOgm22341@dungeon.home> <200101252134.OAA28804@usr08.primenet.com> <20010125140416.A12493@mooseriver.com> In-Reply-To: <20010125140416.A12493@mooseriver.com> from Josef Grosch at "Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:04:16 -0800" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:30:58 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 25th January 2001, Josef Grosch wrote: >On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:32:57PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> > [Expansively indented example, Basser style.] >> > Try that one any other way. :-) >> >> [Terry's compact format] > > [Josef's compact format] But neither of the compact formats can be easily read. To be certain what it they are doing, you have to laboriously trace the brackets, or hop about in them using vi's % operator. I admit I write all of mine in such a compact style, but always wonder what it would be like to get away with the clear but hugely "wasteful" of vertical space Basser format. I can't imagine such a format lasting long in a commit to /sys/anything around here. ;-) Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 26 1:39:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (unknown [194.128.198.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DCD237B404; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 01:39:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0PMnff01149; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:49:41 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:49:40 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Mike Smith Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... Message-ID: <20010125224940.A1127@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200101252029.f0PKTf801281@mass.dis.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101252029.f0PKTf801281@mass.dis.org>; from msmith@freebsd.org on Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 12:29:41PM -0800 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 12:29:41PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > Is this something that FreeBSD/BSDi are/is looking at becoming a member > > of, or is this something that is purely a Linux thing? > > > > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010123S0019 > > It's purely a Linux thing. BSDi tried to get involved in a couple of > that sort of thing, and I've been putting my oar in where I could, but > the combined lack of manpower and lack of funding has prettymuch left us > out in the cold. 8( Seconded. From what I can tell, this is purely so that the companies involved can find an effective way of making money from Linux. Anything that makes that possibility seem more remote (say, the publicising of a more stable, robust, and scalable free alternative to Linux) is completely anathema to them. As well as the BSDi efforts from the US I've been approaching the players from the European side, to no effect. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 26 4:47:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C49B37B401 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 04:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA29887; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 07:47:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma029885; Fri, 26 Jan 01 07:47:40 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 07:47:40 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Fuhrman X-Sender: To: Josef Grosch Cc: Terry Lambert , Stephen McKay , Iain Templeton , Subject: Re: silly C style question In-Reply-To: <20010125140416.A12493@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Josef Grosch wrote: > The lack of a space between the if and the first parenthesis is unclean and > violates style(9) and the space after each opening parenthesis and the lack of > space before each closing parenthesis is also unclean and inconsistent. If one > were being consistent it should be done like this : > > if ( ( id->id_type == NULL ) || > ( ( id->id_type->x_what == xt_arrayof ) && > ( item->x_left->x_what == xt_arrayof ) && > ( id->id_type->x_subtype == item->x_left->x_subtype ) && > ( id->id_type->x_flags & XIS_DIMLESS ) ) ) > I'm more of a Perl programmer than a C programmer, but the one thing I like to do, in any language, is to make code as clean and as readible as possible, the main reason being so that I can look at the code and remember the logic. It also helps with anyone who has to maintain the code at a later date. if ( ( id->id_type == NULL ) || ( ( id->id_type->x_what == xt_arrayof ) && ( item->x_left->x_what == xt_arrayof ) && ( id->id_type->x_subtype == item->x_left->x_subtype ) && ( id->id_type->x_flags & XIS_DIMLESS ) ) ) { } /* if ( ( id->id_type == NULL ) || ... ) */ Out of curiousity, does anyone do function declarations like this? int myfunc (int param1, int param2, char * jabber) { } /* myfunc */ I know it's something of a waste of space, but it helps with readability immensely as far as figuring out what params a function takes. Cheers! -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 26 5:30:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C9937B400; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 05:30:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f0QDU1v61155 ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:30:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA79207 ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:30:08 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:30:08 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Nik Clayton Cc: Mike Smith , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... Message-ID: <20010126143008.P68002@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Nik Clayton , Mike Smith , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200101252029.f0PKTf801281@mass.dis.org> <20010125224940.A1127@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010125224940.A1127@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 10:49:40PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton said on Jan 25, 2001 at 22:49:40: > On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 12:29:41PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > > Is this something that FreeBSD/BSDi are/is looking at becoming a member > > > of, or is this something that is purely a Linux thing? > > > > > > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010123S0019 > > > > It's purely a Linux thing. BSDi tried to get involved in a couple of > > that sort of thing, and I've been putting my oar in where I could, but > > the combined lack of manpower and lack of funding has prettymuch left us > > out in the cold. 8( > > Seconded. From what I can tell, this is purely so that the companies > involved can find an effective way of making money from Linux. Anything > that makes that possibility seem more remote (say, the publicising of a > more stable, robust, and scalable free alternative to Linux) is > completely anathema to them. As well as the BSDi efforts from the US > I've been approaching the players from the European side, to no effect. This is slightly offtopic, but since this is -chat... Though my first serious unix experience was with linux, at this point of time I much prefer FreeBSD as an operating system to use and maintain. However, at this point of time it seems to me that the name "linux" is becoming associated with much more than an operating system, much more than "open source software" even: linux (like GNU, but without the extremist connotations GNU has acquired) is becoming a symbol for openness, freedom from corporate monopolies, and general user rights. To take a few examples: (1) The UCITA, the DMCA, and other such recent US laws and proposals; also the issue of EULA's on shrinkwrapped software, and whether people may get refunds for unused Microsoft operating systems. The linux sites have been full of discussion, and have spurred some concrete action, on such things. I see hardly any mention of such issues on BSD sites or mailing lists. (2) The DVD DeCSS case. The ability to play DVDs is as important to the BSD's as to linux, and I think some of the defendants in that case were actually using BSD systems. But nearly all the "activism" seems to come out of the linux camp. Recently I read of an amicus curiae brief (http://cryptome.org/mpaa-v-2600-bac.htm) signed by, among others, Marvin Minsky, Brian Kernighan, and (on the linux/GNU side) RMS and Andy Hertzfeld (Eazel). Previously, other well-known linux people like Alan Cox have spoken about and made contributions to this case. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a single well-known BSD person has said anything in public about this case, either way. (3) The question of software patents in Europe. I've seen this as part of some signatures, and so on, on FreeBSD lists, but that's about it. The petition against it is housed at http://petition.eurolinux.org. (4) The question of open content licenses for other things like books, music and so on. There are several more. It's funny that though all the above look (superficially, at least) like "linux against big business" fights, and the BSDs like to advertise their business-friendliness, the big businesses are flocking to linux rather than to BSD. Moreover, nearly all the desktop/userland software activity is taking place on linux, and getting ported to BSD from there. And nearly all of it is under the GPL or other licenses more restrictive than the BSD license. I think what matters here is mindshare. Linux has it not because it's a better or more user-friendly OS, but because the community focuses itself on many more issues than merely programming. Alan Cox has said, for instance, that he works on linux rather than BSD partly because the focus of the linux community is more on the end-user (or something to that effect). I also find it interesting that linux sites like lwn.net and linuxtoday.com have plenty of BSD coverage these days, while BSD sites hardly have a mention of linux in them. In short, if linux is getting too heavily associated with "open source" these days, I think it's because the phrase "open source" is getting associated with much more than operating systems these days. The "linux community" is in the thick of all parts of the action. The BSD community is worried only about who has the "better" operating system. Most people don't really care about the operating system, if it satisfies some minimal requirements of stability and reliability, which linux quite definitely does. So it's no surprise to me that so many "open source" efforts end up being mainly linux things... Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 26 16:26:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E30C937B69B; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:26:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA13591; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:23:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAutaWoA; Fri Jan 26 17:23:14 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA09057; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:25:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101270025.RAA09057@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 00:25:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nik@FreeBSD.ORG (Nik Clayton), msmith@FreeBSD.ORG (Mike Smith), scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010126143008.P68002@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Jan 26, 2001 02:30:08 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > (2) The DVD DeCSS case. The ability to play DVDs is as important to > the BSD's as to linux, and I think some of the defendants in that case > were actually using BSD systems. But nearly all the "activism" seems > to come out of the linux camp. Recently I read of an amicus curiae > brief (http://cryptome.org/mpaa-v-2600-bac.htm) signed by, among > others, Marvin Minsky, Brian Kernighan, and (on the linux/GNU side) > RMS and Andy Hertzfeld (Eazel). Previously, other well-known linux > people like Alan Cox have spoken about and made contributions to this > case. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a single well-known > BSD person has said anything in public about this case, either way. The prolem with the DVD code is that there is no packaged BSD version. I think that BSD, despite the many people involved outside the U.S. is largely U.S.-provincial. This is an important point, since outside the U.S., one is immune to U.S. law, and can openly defy it by packaginge code up, to the consternation of the U.S. authorities, and those pushing for them to act against transgressors -- largely U.S. commercial media and governmental organizations, with no teeth outside their own borders. What a German hacker can do with impunity, a U.S. hacker will, in fact, find themselves legally entangled, at great expense. What it boils down to, is that BSD needs more people outside the U.S. that do for BSD what the extra-territorial Linux people are doing for Linux. > (3) The question of software patents in Europe. I've seen this as part > of some signatures, and so on, on FreeBSD lists, but that's about it. > The petition against it is housed at http://petition.eurolinux.org. Similar reasoning applies here: European legislation has little impact on those already suffering under the U.S. equivalent. > It's funny that though all the above look (superficially, at least) > like "linux against big business" fights, and the BSDs like to > advertise their business-friendliness, the big businesses are flocking > to linux rather than to BSD. To me, these look like non-U.S. vs. U.S. Corporate interests fights. In order to be involved against U.S. corporate interests, or the legislation that their lobbying and campaign contributions have been able to buy (like the current lack of sales tax on any Internet purchases, as a positive example), you have to be willing to paint a target on your back. It's a hell of a lot easier to do this, and prance around publically making a lot of noise, if you are out of range of the reprecussions. Probably, a larger non-U.S. core team and committer base would help BSD here. The language barrier isn't a barrier for Linux, since it doesn't have a core team or committer construct. Other than the king and his lords, every contribtor is a vassal, so Linux is in effect a much more egalitarian society, and doesn't have the inherent regional bias that these geocentric structures tend to generate in BSD. This was not helped by a lot of the extraterritorial BSD people being moved into the U.S. by offers of BSDi and similar employment. The lack of acknowledged BSD pundits speaking out in the regular media channels, and on petitions, which are generally not nearly as risky as donning the target T-shirt, probably has a lot to do with the fact that the BSD comminuity shouts most of its pundits down. As far as I can tell, there is a general consensus in the BSD community that ESR, for example, is not much more than a self-made media phenomenon. Many of us remember his promises about where the royalties for the published version of the JARGON.TXT file were going to go, which got us to contribute to his project, and are slow to forgive him. But he _is_ a media phenomenon, now. These people arise because they go find a parade, and then get out in front of it, with a baton. It looks like people are following the guy with the baton. If he isn't beaten into submission by the people behind him, who realize what he's doing, then he may actually attract other followers, and then he can set the future course the parade will take, and have the majority follow him, no matter who started the original parade, or even if it self-assembled because current conditions demanded one. > Moreover, nearly all the desktop/userland software activity is taking > place on linux, and getting ported to BSD from there. And nearly all > of it is under the GPL or other licenses more restrictive than the BSD > license. BSDs are commerce friendly, not business friendly, if you think about it in any depth at all. The BSDs have consistently tried to claim the server space as their forte, to deflect competition. Guess what: this strategy works very well. It's exactly the same strategy that UNIX vendors used to deflect competition against Microsoft being a "problem" for them. Now Microsoft is going after the server market, and beating out UNIX. It really should be no surprise that Linux is breating down the collective neck of BSD, and isn't willing to split the world into nice, orderly kingdoms, over which the same families can rule in peace, as neighbors, forever after. > I think what matters here is mindshare. Linux has it not because it's > a better or more user-friendly OS, but because the community focuses > itself on many more issues than merely programming. Actually, it;s a philosophical war, and BSD is sitting on the fence; it's no wonder it hasn't seen any action. > In short, if linux is getting too heavily associated with "open > source" these days, I think it's because the phrase "open source" is > getting associated with much more than operating systems these days. > The "linux community" is in the thick of all parts of the action. The first argument is wrong; the last argument is spot-on. BSD people are not starting the new projects, Linux people are, and so the new projects go forth with their philosophy. For grey-market projects, which are quasi-legal or illegal in the U.S., there are not a lot of BSD takers. Media spotlights focus on controverst, and BSD people are not controversial enough. There are really no risk takers, if you think about it, in either camp. There haven't been Phil Zimmerman or Kevin Mitnick style arrests over the issues you point out as being important. The thing that drives the controversy is the corporate interests sabre-rattling, and crying that U.S. law should be extended outside the U.S. in order to protect them from competition. It boils down to needing people who can safely engage in the bear-baiting to get the spotlight, if that's the type of attention you want (many BSD people, seeing they can't safely have that, will undoubtedly say "we don't want that, anyway"; it's human nature to devalue what one is unwilling to pay for as being not worth buying). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 26 16:49:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C82537B69D for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:49:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA21758; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:46:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAfEaqzQ; Fri Jan 26 17:46:20 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA09818; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:49:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101270049.RAA09818@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: silly C style question To: mckay@thehub.com.au (Stephen McKay) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 00:48:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), iain@research.canon.com.au (Iain Templeton), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mckay@thehub.com.au In-Reply-To: <200101260530.f0Q5UwF18441@dungeon.home> from "Stephen McKay" at Jan 26, 2001 03:30:58 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> [Terry's compact format] > > > > [Josef's compact format] > > But neither of the compact formats can be easily read. To be certain > what it they are doing, you have to laboriously trace the brackets, or > hop about in them using vi's % operator. I admit I write all of mine in > such a compact style, but always wonder what it would be like to get > away with the clear but hugely "wasteful" of vertical space Basser format. > I can't imagine such a format lasting long in a commit to /sys/anything > around here. ;-) I think that the compact form is significantly easier to read. It lets a reader compute the result of a subexpression, and then ignore everything at that indentation level, basd on a single result. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 6:23: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8963D37B400; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 06:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f0REMj554665 ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:22:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA35698 ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:22:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:22:55 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nik Clayton , Mike Smith , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... Message-ID: <20010127152254.D28709@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Nik Clayton , Mike Smith , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010126143008.P68002@lpt.ens.fr> <200101270025.RAA09057@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101270025.RAA09057@usr01.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 12:25:53AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Jan 27, 2001 at 00:25:53: > > (2) The DVD DeCSS case. The ability to play DVDs is as important to > > the BSD's as to linux, and I think some of the defendants in that case > > were actually using BSD systems. But nearly all the "activism" seems > > to come out of the linux camp. Recently I read of an amicus curiae > > brief (http://cryptome.org/mpaa-v-2600-bac.htm) signed by, among > > others, Marvin Minsky, Brian Kernighan, and (on the linux/GNU side) > > RMS and Andy Hertzfeld (Eazel). Previously, other well-known linux > > people like Alan Cox have spoken about and made contributions to this > > case. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a single well-known > > BSD person has said anything in public about this case, either way. > > The prolem with the DVD code is that there is no packaged BSD > version. > > I think that BSD, despite the many people involved outside the U.S. > is largely U.S.-provincial. > > This is an important point, since outside the U.S., one is immune > to U.S. law, and can openly defy it by packaginge code up, to the > consternation of the U.S. authorities, and those pushing for them > to act against transgressors -- largely U.S. commercial media and > governmental organizations, with no teeth outside their own borders. > > What a German hacker can do with impunity, a U.S. hacker will, in > fact, find themselves legally entangled, at great expense. Umm... DeCSS was written by a 16 year old in Norway, called Jon Johansen (who, by the way, used both linux and FreeBSD), and just about a year ago his home was raided by Norway's National Authority for Investigation and Prosecution of Economic and Environmental Crime at the instigation of the MPAA, he was questioned for 7 hours, his computers were seized. Later he took the witness stand at the DVD trial in New York. I just refreshed my memory on all this at the EFF web page, http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/DeCSS_prosecutions/Johansen_DeCSS_case/ Take a look... I remember reading even at that time that the OS he was primarily using was FreeBSD, rather than Linux. But it is the "linux community" which was willing to take up the fight. > > (3) The question of software patents in Europe. I've seen this as part > > of some signatures, and so on, on FreeBSD lists, but that's about it. > > The petition against it is housed at http://petition.eurolinux.org. > > Similar reasoning applies here: European legislation has little > impact on those already suffering under the U.S. equivalent. That's pretty shortsighted. A better attitude would be to think that a strong anti-software-patent movement in Europe could strengthen the movement which already exists in the US. (By the way, did people notice the news item about someone getting a trademark on the frownie, :-( ?) > To me, these look like non-U.S. vs. U.S. Corporate interests > fights. In order to be involved against U.S. corporate interests, Well, have it your way, but it is the US corporates which are lining up behind linux... > As far as I can tell, there is a general consensus in the BSD > community that ESR, for example, is not much more than a self-made > media phenomenon. Many of us remember his promises about where > the royalties for the published version of the JARGON.TXT file > were going to go, which got us to contribute to his project, and > are slow to forgive him. But he _is_ a media phenomenon, now. > > These people arise because they go find a parade, and then get out > in front of it, with a baton. It looks like people are following > the guy with the baton. If he isn't beaten into submission by > the people behind him, who realize what he's doing, then he may > actually attract other followers, and then he can set the future > course the parade will take, and have the majority follow him, no > matter who started the original parade, or even if it self-assembled > because current conditions demanded one. The point is, the parade did exist before ESR got out in front of it. And it still exists even though ESR isn't making much noise nowadays. Most important, to me, the issues the parade is trying to bring to public focus really are important issues, whether you agree with them or not. > Actually, it;s a philosophical war, and BSD is sitting on the fence; > it's no wonder it hasn't seen any action. BSD's entire philosophy is to sit on the fence: that's basically the usual justification for BSD style licensing, too. It's very nice but it doesn't inspire large numbers of people to go out and try to change things... Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 7:45:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout04.sul.t-online.com (mailout04.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB7437B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 07:45:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd05.sul.t-online.com by mailout04.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14MXXj-0000GO-09; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:45:35 +0100 Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (520050424122-0001@[62.225.192.48]) by fmrl05.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 14MXXb-20bd3IC; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:45:27 +0100 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B198AB44 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:45:31 +0100 (CET) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 84B3214AA8; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:45:29 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:45:29 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: diff(1) algorythm Message-ID: <20010127164529.A43356@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: alex@cichlids.cichlids.com, chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) X-Sender: 520050424122-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! Does anyone have a description (or knows where to obtain) of the algorythm(s) that is (are) used in the "diff" program? I can read the source, but this doesn't really show the initial algorythm, because I'm sure it has been optimized. Thanks IA Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 14:37:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay4.inwind.it (relay4.inwind.it [212.141.53.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E16837B401 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 14:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.171.35) by relay4.inwind.it (5.1.056) id 3A6DB81B000FF9B4; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 23:36:55 +0100 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:39:42 GMT Message-ID: <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ redirected to -chat before somebody flames both of us :-) ] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 1/27/01, 9:56:05 PM, Mike Meyer wrote regarding OT=20 again: Re: hexidecimal literacy: > Salvo Bartolotta types: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > On 1/27/01, 8:20:01 PM, Mike Meyer wrote regarding R= e: > > hexidecimal literacy: > > > Mark B. Withers types: > > > > Oh gosh! > > > > I thought I understood it before, but looking at it like this > > > > simplifies it dramaticly!! > > > Just remember that this applies to interesting bases like 0, 1, Pi= and > > > negative numbers :-). > > Hmm, I am afraid you are exaggerating a bit :-) > Actually, I'm not. I'm pretty sure this was from Knuth, back when I > was an undergrad. Unfortunately, my books are all in storage, so I > can't check on it :-(. In the field (meant as a technical term of Algebra) of real numbers R,=20 "0" is the neutral element of the "+" (or "sum") operation. However, 0=20 has no inverse with respect to "*" (or "multiplication"). Also, 0=20 raised to a positive integer is defined (and equals zero), but 0=20 raised to 0 has, in a strictly algebraic sense, NO meaning. Therefore,=20 you canNOT generate integers; 0 cannot be a base. =20 =20 "1" -- a very important mumber since... Plato :-)) -- is the neutral=20 element for the "*" operation. Hence 1 raised to any (relative)=20 integer equals one, and canNOT be used to represent integers (ie N,=20 whence NxN=3DZ, whence Z*Z'=3DQ, whence its "adherence" -- in a=20 topological sense -- R, whence RxR=3DC).=20 Incidentally, 1 raised to any real number can be defined (cf the=20 construction of continuous homomorhisms mapping R to R+, viz the=20 exponential functions). =20 Oooooops. I was implicitly thinking in too an abstract mathematical=20 way when I wrote my first reply :-) > > > > 1) a positional notation making use of negative bases looks very > > awkward/impractical (you would have to utilize negative coefficients= ); > > OTOH, when working with such a positional notation, you are supposed= > > to be working on N (ie the set of the "natural" numbers, or positive= > > integers); and to add to all this, there are a number of approaches = to > > the "construction" of N itself (Peano's, Cipolla's, the set theory > > with all its subtle problems... cf Bourbaki[sm]) > > > > 2) Pi, as "e" ~ 2.71828182..., is a **trascendental** irratio= nal > > number (!). I let you guess what kind of coefficients you have to us= e > > to generate integers. > > > You seem to be focused on generating N. If that's the goal, then using= > negative (or any base less than 2) or irrational bases is indeed > problematical. However, that doesn't change the fact that a string in > some base has a single, fixed value even for negative and > transcendental bases. As such, they can be safely used to represent > numbers, and make a perfectly valid base. Yup (except for 0 and 1). Possible but ackward/impractical. Either you=20 use positive and/or negative coefficients to express a given integer,=20 or transcendental coefficients. This recalls somehow to mind a vector=20 space of dimension 1. I was also thinking in Bourbakistic terms. Mathematics IS beauty as=20 well as elegance... :-) Best regards, Salvo (ok, back to compiling code now :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 15: 3: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B3B937B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:02:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03001; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:02:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Jan 2001 00:02:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: Salvo Bartolotta's message of "Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:39:42 GMT" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta writes: > [intersting stuff about using negative or transendental or radices] Us program correctness buffs were taught to define natural integers by induction, and to define operations on natural integers using a series of Guttag axioms (that operate on the sequence of constructors that produced the number rather than on the number itself). All other representations are mere simulations of this one, and proof of their correctness is left as an exercise for the reader ;) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 15:12:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 27BE637B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20276 invoked by uid 100); 27 Jan 2001 23:11:58 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14963.21950.110019.468965@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:11:58 -0600 (CST) To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy In-Reply-To: <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta types: > [ redirected to -chat before somebody flames both of us :-) ] Good idea! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > > > > I thought I understood it before, but looking at it like this > > > > > simplifies it dramaticly!! > > > > Just remember that this applies to interesting bases like 0, 1, Pi and > > > > negative numbers :-). > > > Hmm, I am afraid you are exaggerating a bit :-) > > Actually, I'm not. I'm pretty sure this was from Knuth, back when I > > was an undergrad. Unfortunately, my books are all in storage, so I > > can't check on it :-(. > I would call it teaching your mother to suck eggs, but... > > You seem to be focused on generating N. If that's the goal, then using > > negative (or any base less than 2) or irrational bases is indeed > > problematical. However, that doesn't change the fact that a string in > > some base has a single, fixed value even for negative and > > transcendental bases. As such, they can be safely used to represent > > numbers, and make a perfectly valid base. > Yup (except for 0 and 1). Possible but ackward/impractical. Either you > use positive and/or negative coefficients to express a given integer, > or transcendental coefficients. This recalls somehow to mind a vector > space of dimension 1. Nope, only 0 is exempt. Unary is usually the first notational systems ones learns for representing numbers, and is almost certainly the first one discovered by humanity. It's probably used by more people than binary. It does have some strange properties. For instance, you have to use the base as a digit - otherwise you only get 0, which is very inconvenient. Also, since one raised to any power is 1, position is irrelevant. This means you don't even needs 0s. But you can represent any integer N by a string of N 1s, which is it's unary representation. This was the representation used by the original unix bc for an output base of 1. Setting obase to 0 caused it to use string of bell characters instead of 1s. I have to wonder if the bc authors would be interested in patches for that? Now, if you want to get *really* wierd, start thinking about bases that have an absolute value of less than 1. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 15:23:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 69AC937B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20950 invoked by uid 100); 27 Jan 2001 23:23:06 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14963.22618.623392.355083@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:23:06 -0600 (CST) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy In-Reply-To: References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav types: > Salvo Bartolotta writes: > > [intersting stuff about using negative or transendental or radices] > > Us program correctness buffs were taught to define natural integers by > induction, and to define operations on natural integers using a series > of Guttag axioms (that operate on the sequence of constructors that > produced the number rather than on the number itself). All other > representations are mere simulations of this one, and proof of their > correctness is left as an exercise for the reader ;) Where did you find a computer that did calculations in N? Or some form Z/n, even? ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03115; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:30:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Mike Meyer Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.22618.623392.355083@guru.mired.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Jan 2001 00:30:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: Mike Meyer's message of "Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:23:06 -0600 (CST)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer writes: > Where did you find a computer that did calculations in N? Or some form > Z/n, even? Computers? I didn't say anything about computers :) Seriously, though, there are programming languages (ML for instance) that will let you define abstract types syntactically. (my mind is muddled, btw, I should have said Z instead of N; though it's common in CS to include 0 in N, I should know better) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 15:45:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay4.inwind.it (relay4.inwind.it [212.141.53.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D3737B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:45:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.171.35) by relay4.inwind.it (5.1.056) id 3A6DB81B001025F5; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:44:57 +0100 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 23:47:38 GMT Message-ID: <20010127.23473800@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <14963.21950.110019.468965@guru.mired.org> References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.21950.110019.468965@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 1/28/01, 12:11:58 AM, Mike Meyer wrote regarding Re: = OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy: > Salvo Bartolotta types: > > [ redirected to -chat before somebody flames both of us :-) ] > Good idea! > I would call it teaching your mother to suck eggs, but... I was making my standpoint clear and (hopefully) unambiguous. > Nope, only 0 is exempt. Unary is usually the first notational systems > ones learns for representing numbers, and is almost certainly the > first one discovered by humanity. It's probably used by more people > than binary. I was thinking of a *positional* system of the kind a*(base raised to=20 0) + b * (base raised to 1) + ... > Now, if you want to get *really* wierd, start thinking about bases > that have an absolute value of less than 1. Erm, yes. Actually, I have continuous homomorphisms R -> R+ with 0 <=20 base < 1 in mind. And the contruction of the exponential functions (as=20 well as the topological theorems involved in it) IS beautiful. :-)) Salvo "Chi non sa di matematica non si eleva di un sol palmo da terra"=20 -- Galileo "Those who do not know mathematics do not elevate themselves of one=20 palm from the ground" (rough tranlation). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 15:50:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web10606.mail.yahoo.com (web10606.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C96BF37B401 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:50:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20010127235002.43928.qmail@web10606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [129.237.35.38] by web10606.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:50:02 PST Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:50:02 -0800 (PST) From: Tyler McGeorge Reply-To: treznor@sunflower.com Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have no idea what most of that means. I can gather vague concepts, but it's still beautiful. I can't wait until I start taking more math classes. Ty --- Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > On 1/28/01, 12:11:58 AM, Mike Meyer > wrote regarding Re: > OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy: > > > > Salvo Bartolotta types: > > > [ redirected to -chat before somebody flames > both of us :-) ] > > > Good idea! > > > > I would call it teaching your mother to suck eggs, > but... > > > > I was making my standpoint clear and (hopefully) > unambiguous. > > > > > Nope, only 0 is exempt. Unary is usually the first > notational systems > > ones learns for representing numbers, and is > almost certainly the > > first one discovered by humanity. It's probably > used by more people > > than binary. > > > > > > I was thinking of a *positional* system of the kind > a*(base raised to > 0) + b * (base raised to 1) + ... > > > > > Now, if you want to get *really* wierd, start > thinking about bases > > that have an absolute value of less than 1. > > > Erm, yes. Actually, I have continuous homomorphisms > R -> R+ with 0 < > base < 1 in mind. And the contruction of the > exponential functions (as > well as the topological theorems involved in it) IS > beautiful. :-)) > > Salvo > > > > "Chi non sa di matematica non si eleva di un sol > palmo da terra" > -- Galileo > > "Those who do not know mathematics do not elevate > themselves of one > palm from the ground" (rough tranlation). > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the > message > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 15:50:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web10603.mail.yahoo.com (web10603.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 290FE37B404 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:50:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20010127235040.69015.qmail@web10603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [129.237.35.38] by web10603.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:50:40 PST Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:50:40 -0800 (PST) From: Tyler McGeorge Reply-To: treznor@sunflower.com Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have no idea what most of that means. I can gather vague concepts, but it's still beautiful. I can't wait until I start taking more math classes. Ty --- Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > On 1/28/01, 12:11:58 AM, Mike Meyer > wrote regarding Re: > OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy: > > > > Salvo Bartolotta types: > > > [ redirected to -chat before somebody flames > both of us :-) ] > > > Good idea! > > > > I would call it teaching your mother to suck eggs, > but... > > > > I was making my standpoint clear and (hopefully) > unambiguous. > > > > > Nope, only 0 is exempt. Unary is usually the first > notational systems > > ones learns for representing numbers, and is > almost certainly the > > first one discovered by humanity. It's probably > used by more people > > than binary. > > > > > > I was thinking of a *positional* system of the kind > a*(base raised to > 0) + b * (base raised to 1) + ... > > > > > Now, if you want to get *really* wierd, start > thinking about bases > > that have an absolute value of less than 1. > > > Erm, yes. Actually, I have continuous homomorphisms > R -> R+ with 0 < > base < 1 in mind. And the contruction of the > exponential functions (as > well as the topological theorems involved in it) IS > beautiful. :-)) > > Salvo > > > > "Chi non sa di matematica non si eleva di un sol > palmo da terra" > -- Galileo > > "Those who do not know mathematics do not elevate > themselves of one > palm from the ground" (rough tranlation). > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the > message > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 16: 0:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay4.inwind.it (relay4.inwind.it [212.141.53.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2177B37B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.171.35) by relay4.inwind.it (5.1.056) id 3A6DB81B00102D81; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:59:48 +0100 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:02:35 GMT Message-ID: <20010128.23500@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 1/28/01, 12:02:35 AM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote=20 regarding Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy: > Salvo Bartolotta writes: > > [intersting stuff about using negative or transendental or radices] > Us program correctness buffs were taught to define natural integers by= > induction, and to define operations on natural integers using a series= > of Guttag axioms (that operate on the sequence of constructors that > produced the number rather than on the number itself). All other > representations are mere simulations of this one, and proof of their > correctness is left as an exercise for the reader ;) BTW, Peano (wait for it) was Italian; Cipolla was Italian, too. I am=20 somewhat Bourbakist -- and I have the dreadful Set Theory in mind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 16:10: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CF937B401 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:09:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA03261; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:09:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.21950.110019.468965@guru.mired.org> <20010127.23473800@bartequi.ottodomain.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Jan 2001 01:09:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: Salvo Bartolotta's message of "Sat, 27 Jan 2001 23:47:38 GMT" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta writes: > I was thinking of a *positional* system of the kind a*(base raised to > 0) + b * (base raised to 1) + ... Yes. 11111 in unary is 1*(1^0) + 1*(1^1) + 1*(1^2) + 1*(1^3) + 1*(1^4). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 16:23:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay3.inwind.it (relay3.inwind.it [212.141.53.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3139E37B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.171.35) by relay3.inwind.it (5.1.056) id 3A40BF86007E740C; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:22:43 +0100 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:25:25 GMT Message-ID: <20010128.252500@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.21950.110019.468965@guru.mired.org> <20010127.23473800@bartequi.ottodomain.org> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 1/28/01, 1:09:47 AM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote=20 regarding Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy: > Salvo Bartolotta writes: > > I was thinking of a *positional* system of the kind a*(base raised t= o > > 0) + b * (base raised to 1) + ... > Yes. > 11111 in unary is 1*(1^0) + 1*(1^1) + 1*(1^2) + 1*(1^3) + 1*(1^4). This ahem "system" is a little curious: eg how do you represent, erm,=20 0 ? With bells (and whistles) ? :-) With just one symbol, you are somewhat limited, aren't you ? OTOH, 0=20 is (maybe) the most important number in the history of maths... Ok,ok,=20 I have too much Algebra and Analysis in mind. :-)=20 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 16:28: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A840137B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23243 invoked by uid 100); 28 Jan 2001 00:27:40 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14963.26492.324702.290472@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:27:40 -0600 (CST) To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy In-Reply-To: <20010127.23473800@bartequi.ottodomain.org> References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.21950.110019.468965@guru.mired.org> <20010127.23473800@bartequi.ottodomain.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta types: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > Nope, only 0 is exempt. Unary is usually the first notational systems > > ones learns for representing numbers, and is almost certainly the > > first one discovered by humanity. It's probably used by more people > > than binary. > > I was thinking of a *positional* system of the kind a*(base raised to > 0) + b * (base raised to 1) + ... Right. When base is 1, "(base raised to x)" is unity in all positions, so it becomes the process of adding a series of 1s and 0s. Since the position is on longer informative, you just throw it out - and the zeros go with it. It is rather strange, but such things happen in degenerate cases. On the other hand - those cases are part of the beauty of the system. > Erm, yes. Actually, I have continuous homomorphisms R -> R+ with 0 < > base < 1 in mind. And the contruction of the exponential functions (as > well as the topological theorems involved in it) IS beautiful. :-)) I tend to prefer discrete mathematics myself - I never did like the way continuous systems feel around the edges. Yeah, I know - thats the degenerate case for those systems. Just to do a complete topic change, have you read: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Hamming.html The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics, R.W. Hamming http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences, Eugene Wigner http://www.cfcl.com/~jef/effectiveness_mathematics.html Effectiveness of Mathematics, Jef Raskin I just had them pointed out to me, but they contain things that any mathematician - or physicist - should think about. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 16:30:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B87337B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA03399; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:30:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.21950.110019.468965@guru.mired.org> <20010127.23473800@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <20010128.252500@bartequi.ottodomain.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Jan 2001 01:30:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: Salvo Bartolotta's message of "Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:25:25 GMT" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta writes: > > 11111 in unary is 1*(1^0) + 1*(1^1) + 1*(1^2) + 1*(1^3) + 1*(1^4). > This ahem "system" is a little curious: eg how do you represent, erm, > 0 ? With bells (and whistles) ? :-) An empty string :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 16:32:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A90FA37B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23506 invoked by uid 100); 28 Jan 2001 00:31:53 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14963.26745.224477.652544@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:31:53 -0600 (CST) To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy In-Reply-To: <20010128.252500@bartequi.ottodomain.org> References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.21950.110019.468965@guru.mired.org> <20010127.23473800@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <20010128.252500@bartequi.ottodomain.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta types: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > On 1/28/01, 1:09:47 AM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote > regarding Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy: > > Salvo Bartolotta writes: > > > I was thinking of a *positional* system of the kind a*(base raised to > > > 0) + b * (base raised to 1) + ... > > Yes. > > 11111 in unary is 1*(1^0) + 1*(1^1) + 1*(1^2) + 1*(1^3) + 1*(1^4). > > This ahem "system" is a little curious: eg how do you represent, erm, > 0 ? With bells (and whistles) ? :-) As 0, of course. Personally, I write unary with 5 symbols: | - / \ O, in order, and with five of them overlapped. > With just one symbol, you are somewhat limited, aren't you ? OTOH, 0 > is (maybe) the most important number in the history of maths... Ok,ok, > I have too much Algebra and Analysis in mind. :-) Nothing wrong with that. Well, Algebra, anyway :-). http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 17: 0:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay3.inwind.it (relay3.inwind.it [212.141.53.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05A837B404 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:00:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.171.35) by relay3.inwind.it (5.1.056) id 3A40BF86007E8322; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 02:00:09 +0100 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:02:56 GMT Message-ID: <20010128.1025600@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <14963.26492.324702.290472@guru.mired.org> References: <14963.8033.752142.149320@guru.mired.org> <20010127.20140200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.13797.116165.382738@guru.mired.org> <20010127.22394200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.21950.110019.468965@guru.mired.org> <20010127.23473800@bartequi.ottodomain.org> <14963.26492.324702.290472@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 1/28/01, 1:27:40 AM, Mike Meyer wrote regarding Re:=20 OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy: > I tend to prefer discrete mathematics myself - I never did like the > way continuous systems feel around the edges. Yeah, I know - thats the= > degenerate case for those systems. > Just to do a complete topic change, have you read: > http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Hamming.html > The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics, R.W. Hamming > http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html > The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural > Sciences, Eugene Wigner > http://www.cfcl.com/~jef/effectiveness_mathematics.html > Effectiveness of Mathematics, Jef Raskin > I just had them pointed out to me, but they contain things that any > mathematician - or physicist - should think about. Yup. Mathematics (< manthano ;-) works... unreasonably well. "Those who don't use math to their advantage, they will see it=20 employed against them" (Herbart) By the way, I have found "Pi in the ski. Counting, Thinking, and=20 Being" by J.D.Barrow an interesting reading. Unfortunately, it is not=20 so much "explanatory/introductory" as the author would like it to be.=20 I am afraid one can only really appreciate it if one has a *solid*=20 mathematical background. Salvo ( I should go really to bed instead of chatting :-)) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 17:13:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0CF37B404; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup37.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.19.37]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-RELAY-2.01) with ESMTP id f0S0UYR29185; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:30:39 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200101270025.RAA09057@usr01.primenet.com> References: <200101270025.RAA09057@usr01.primenet.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:18:22 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... Cc: nik@FreeBSD.ORG (Nik Clayton), msmith@FreeBSD.ORG (Mike Smith), scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:25 AM +0000 2001/1/27, Terry Lambert wrote: > What it boils down to, is that BSD needs more people outside the > U.S. that do for BSD what the extra-territorial Linux people are > doing for Linux. I thought we already had this sort of thing for the International crypto stuff, hence the internat.freebsd.org site. Can't we just expand this group of people to include work in other areas? -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 19:17:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web10602.mail.yahoo.com (web10602.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CB83137B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:17:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20010128031709.47337.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [129.237.35.38] by web10602.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:17:09 PST Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:17:09 -0800 (PST) From: Tyler McGeorge Reply-To: treznor@sunflower.com Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, technically, if a unary system, you could only have one numeral present. So choose between 0 and 1. Unary systems are very viable. --- Mike Meyer wrote: > Salvo Bartolotta types: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > On 1/28/01, 1:09:47 AM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav > wrote > > regarding Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy: > > > Salvo Bartolotta writes: > > > > I was thinking of a *positional* system of the > kind a*(base raised to > > > > 0) + b * (base raised to 1) + ... > > > Yes. > > > 11111 in unary is 1*(1^0) + 1*(1^1) + 1*(1^2) + > 1*(1^3) + 1*(1^4). > > > > This ahem "system" is a little curious: eg how do > you represent, erm, > > 0 ? With bells (and whistles) ? :-) > > As 0, of course. Personally, I write unary with 5 > symbols: | - / \ O, > in order, and with five of them overlapped. > > > With just one symbol, you are somewhat limited, > aren't you ? OTOH, 0 > > is (maybe) the most important number in the > history of maths... Ok,ok, > > I have too much Algebra and Analysis in mind. :-) > > Nothing wrong with that. Well, Algebra, anyway :-). > > -- > Mike Meyer > http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, > email for more information. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the > message > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 19:35:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EA6CC37B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:35:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29428 invoked by uid 100); 28 Jan 2001 03:35:38 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14963.37770.653122.239807@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:35:38 -0600 (CST) To: treznor@sunflower.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT again: Re: hexidecimal literacy In-Reply-To: <20010128031709.47337.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010128031709.47337.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tyler McGeorge types: > Well, technically, if a unary system, you could only > have one numeral present. So choose between 0 and 1. > > As 0, of course. Personally, I write unary with 5 > > symbols: | - / \ O, > > in order, and with five of them overlapped. All five symbols mean the same thing; the differences just help keep track of where the tally is. Most people just use two: four |'s and then a / through them all. Using 5 means you don't even have to bother counting the elements of a group tofigure out when to do the / through them all. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 21: 3:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns5.pacific.net.au (ns5.pacific.net.au [203.143.252.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4681437B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:03:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp177.dyn250.pacific.net.au [203.143.250.177]) by ns5.pacific.net.au (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA21824; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:03:33 +1100 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0S548c11925; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 15:04:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200101280504.f0S548c11925@dungeon.home> To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: silly C style question References: <200101270049.RAA09818@usr01.primenet.com> In-Reply-To: <200101270049.RAA09818@usr01.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Sat, 27 Jan 2001 00:48:57 +0000" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 15:04:08 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 27th January 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> [Terry's compact format] >> > >> > [Josef's compact format] >> >> But neither of the compact formats can be easily read. To be certain >> what it they are doing, you have to laboriously trace the brackets, or >> hop about in them using vi's % operator. I admit I write all of mine in >> such a compact style, but always wonder what it would be like to get >> away with the clear but hugely "wasteful" of vertical space Basser format. >> I can't imagine such a format lasting long in a commit to /sys/anything >> around here. ;-) > >I think that the compact form is significantly easier to read. It >lets a reader compute the result of a subexpression, and then ignore >everything at that indentation level, basd on a single result. It was fun going a few rounds of the old Indenting Wars, but it's reached the inevitable end. I'm claiming readability for the verbose Basser format while you are claiming the same readability advantage for your format (using exactly the same argument I use to support the Basser format but somehow ending up favouring your format). The only option now is fisticuffs, and I'm no good at that. I'll go back to coding in K&R (and worse) to match work coding standards, and we'll meet back here for another argument, say, this time next year, or perhaps the year after. Cheers, Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 27 23:58:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (grouter.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A3237B400 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 23:58:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from grondar.za (root@gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0S7w3W18521; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 09:58:05 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200101280758.f0S7w3W18521@gratis.grondar.za> To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Development Laboratory ... References: In-Reply-To: ; from Brad Knowles "Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:18:22 +0100." Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 09:58:09 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I thought we already had this sort of thing for the International > crypto stuff, hence the internat.freebsd.org site. Can't we just > expand this group of people to include work in other areas? I happily put up DeCSS on internat if I didn't think that the cops would come a-knocking. South Africa is Zone 2 DVD (same as Europe), and I think that the Commercial Branch may take a copyright case (yeah, yeah) quite seriously. We need a data warehouse in a place like Sealand or Antarctica (or or the moon!). M -- Mark Murray Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message