From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 20 6:52:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C2A37B422 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 06:52:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4KDqg104767; Sun, 20 May 2001 15:52:42 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010519191207.00e68ba0@mail85.pair.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010519111731.00ada1c0@mail85.pair.com> <20010518175955.A94216@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010518130043.04466f00@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20010519111731.00ada1c0@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010519191207.00e68ba0@mail85.pair.com> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 15:44:14 +0200 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Politically correct IIS attack Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:12 PM -0500 5/19/01, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > On a totally different topic, I have just cvsupped my ports collection. > I then tried to get a port just to be told I needed to upgrade my ports > make file. I went to freebsd.org/ports/ and found out they no longer > support my version (3.1). > > I wish CVSup knew about it somehow. Now I have no way of going back > to what I had before, so I could at least get the ports that work with > my system. We've talked about this issue before on this mailing list, and certain people requested that this discussion be moved to the -ports mailing list. The summary is that the ports system doesn't have any branches (so therefore it naturally tracks -STABLE), and if you want to cvsup the ports system without updating the underlying OS on the machine, you need to be aware that there are extra things you need to do in order to avoid screwing the pooch. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 20 20:12:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-217.knology.net [24.214.76.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC31937B446 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 20:12:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4L3CLo35871; Sun, 20 May 2001 22:12:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200105210312.f4L3CLo35871@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Politically correct IIS attack In-reply-to: Message from "G. Adam Stanislav" of "Sat, 19 May 2001 11:17:31 CDT." <3.0.6.32.20010519111731.00ada1c0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 22:12:21 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" writes: > At 13:01 18-05-2001 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS01-023.asp > > > >which conclusively proves that you can break into an IIS server > >MUCH faster than you can break into an Apache server. ;-) > > Strange. That article also gives the impression that someone > at MS is taking political correctness to the extreme. > > Whenever the article talks about an attacker, it says "she" or > "her". Is MS suggesting that only a woman would attack an IIS? What part of "female" and "Ms" is causing your confusion? Or did you forget an Ms *is* a female? :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 20 21: 3:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3588737B443 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 21:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r8.bfm.org [216.127.220.104]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 23:07:24 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010520230158.00af0100@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 23:01:58 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Politically correct IIS attack In-Reply-To: <200105210312.f4L3CLo35871@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20010519111731.00ada1c0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 22:12 20-05-2001 -0500, David Kelly wrote: >What part of "female" and "Ms" is causing your confusion? Or did you >forget an Ms *is* a female? :-) :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 21 2:43:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bubble.via-net-works.ie (bubble.via-net-works.ie [212.17.32.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EB437B424 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 02:43:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Received: from firebird.dialups.via-net-works.ie ([212.17.33.161] helo=cooperationireland.org) by bubble.via-net-works.ie with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #2) id 151mDk-0005Pn-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 09:43:24 +0000 Received: from it1 (it1 [199.107.2.129]) by cooperationireland.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4L9hNT12223 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:43:23 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010521104327.00852820@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:43:27 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Mike Doyle Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One "Shared Calendar" we use in my company is called "WebCalendar" - it's a PHP app which uses any one of four database interfaces (Oracle, MySQL, PostgreSQL or ODBC drivers). We use it with PostgreSQL. I have found that it gives us a nice reliable shared calendar for approx. 50 users. I was able to download it from sourceforge. (GPL License) <>< ============================================================= ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@cooperationireland.org Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.cooperationireland.org/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 21 3:33:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B200C37B424 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 03:33:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 151n08-000Cw5-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:33:24 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4LAXNe74644 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:33:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:33:23 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: war of disinformation Message-ID: <20010521113323.B74026@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org a friend of mine sent me an article that is linux-centered but still has some interesting implications. http://www.consultingtimes.com/ms_infowar.html the gist of the article here is that the attack on open source is to attack IBM, and linux just happens to be in the way. Any comments? I find the 'exposure' of the information war rather interesting. Jonathon -- When I die, I want to go in my sleep, like my grandfather. Not screaming, like the passengers in his car. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 21 6: 1:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1CE337B424 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 06:01:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4LD06O50354; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:00:06 GMT Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:00:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: war of disinformation In-Reply-To: <20010521113323.B74026@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 21 May 2001, j mckitrick wrote: > the gist of the article here is that the attack on open source is to attack > IBM, and linux just happens to be in the way. *Sigh*. If only half the companies out there had IBM debugging department. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 21 6: 9:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D6E37B422 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 06:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 151pQq-000DRQ-00; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:09:08 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4LD97H78778; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:09:07 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:09:07 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Kris Kirby Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: war of disinformation Message-ID: <20010521140907.C78685@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010521113323.B74026@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@catonic.net on Mon, May 21, 2001 at 01:00:05PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > the gist of the article here is that the attack on open source is to attack | > IBM, and linux just happens to be in the way. | | *Sigh*. If only half the companies out there had IBM debugging department. Hmmm, what do you mean by this? Jonathon -- When I die, I want to go in my sleep, like my grandfather. Not screaming, like the passengers in his car. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 21 6:13:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CA0A37B43C for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 06:13:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4LDBhA50711; Mon, 21 May 2001 13:11:43 GMT Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:11:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: war of disinformation In-Reply-To: <20010521140907.C78685@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 21 May 2001, j mckitrick wrote: > | *Sigh*. If only half the companies out there had IBM debugging department. > > Hmmm, what do you mean by this? IBM's debugging department. Damn NyQuil has kicked in already. I meant that IBM actually tested thier software, as opposed to the "let's get it out the door before *we* spot another problem" policy that most commercial outlets seem to be operating under. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 21 7:17:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DE5E37B424 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 07:17:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0595E63; Mon, 21 May 2001 09:17:45 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 09:17:45 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Kris Kirby Cc: j mckitrick , Subject: Re: war of disinformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 21 May 2001, Kris Kirby wrote: :On Mon, 21 May 2001, j mckitrick wrote: :> the gist of the article here is that the attack on open source is to attack :> IBM, and linux just happens to be in the way. : :*Sigh*. If only half the companies out there had IBM debugging department. If only half of IBM had IBM's debugging department. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 21 10:13:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D732937B422 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:13:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4LHDUM01180 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:13:30 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 19:12:53 +0200 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Brad Knowles Subject: IEEE 802.11b wireless ethernet security... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, My first column is online at . While this is a Macintosh PowerBook-specific website, I feel that the article is generally applicable to anyone wanting to do 802.11b networking. I would appreciate it if you would give me any feedback you may have as to things I may have missed, inaccuracies in the article, etc.... And yes, I'm sending out this announcement to multiple mailing lists, so you may see more than one copy. That's to be expected. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 21 10:26:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA6F37B424 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:26:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19055; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:24:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010521111319.044642c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:17:48 -0600 To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: war of disinformation (GPL) In-Reply-To: <20010521113323.B74026@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:33 AM 5/21/2001, j mckitrick wrote: >a friend of mine sent me an article that is linux-centered but still has >some interesting implications. > >http://www.consultingtimes.com/ms_infowar.html > >the gist of the article here is that the attack on open source is to attack >IBM, and linux just happens to be in the way. That's foolish. IBM's Linux strategy is an infinitesimal portion of its business. What I suspect that Microsoft is really trying to do is fire up the Linux fanatics. You see, the GPL is actually *GOOD* for Microsoft, because it destroys Microsoft's competition but not Microsoft itself. Microsoft obviously can't collude with the FSF; not only would this bring the threat of additional antitrust action but the FSF would never cooperate. So, how to make sure that the GPL camp stays motivated and goes out to make war on Microsoft's competition? Inflame them with speeches and articles like Mundie's. Brilliant strategy. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 21 15:53: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F8637B422 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 15:53:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4LMpUx63970; Mon, 21 May 2001 22:51:30 GMT Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:51:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: David Scheidt Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: war of disinformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 21 May 2001, David Scheidt wrote: > :*Sigh*. If only half the companies out there had IBM debugging department. > > If only half of IBM had IBM's debugging department. That too. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 21 19:42:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D8437B424; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:42:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04981; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:42:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAkma4Nj; Mon May 21 19:42:17 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA19765; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:45:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105220245.TAA19765@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Exchange substitute To: reed@reedmedia.net (Jeremy C. Reed) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:45:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar (Fernando P . Schapachnik), advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG (please don't continue on) In-Reply-To: from "Jeremy C. Reed" at May 18, 2001 12:32:59 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Sendmail + Cyrus IMAP from ports will do the job. > > This will do the shared/group calendaring? It will transport Microsoft TNEF files as MIME attachments, which lets you calendar between OutLook users. > > Are you using any esorteric features of Excahnge that we > > should know about? You may also need to add OpenLDAP 2.0 > > or other software, if you are. > > I also am curious about this. On Tuesday, I gave a presentation about BSD, > open source, and Linux; and some of the audience asked me about > alternatives for MS Exchange/Outlook -- in particular they were interested > in providing shared calendars. (I guess this is called "groupware".) > I have only heard about evolution, so it was my only answer. See: http://www.imc.org/pdi/pdiprodslist.html You are looking for the "vCalendar Products" table. > Fernando, the "unix-based MS Exchange substitute" may really involve two > parts: the server and the clients that work with it. You may want to see > if the clients you are using support iCalendar or Open Mail. OutLook supports RFC 2447 (iMIP) for interoperability, I think. You may also want to check out "Meeting Maker" from OnTrack; it has Mac and UNIX clients, and the server generally runs on UNIX boxes. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 22 9:19:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF1337B424 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:19:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4MGJIR42968 ; Tue, 22 May 2001 18:19:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA64960 ; Tue, 22 May 2001 18:19:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:19:37 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Copyright law, again... Message-ID: <20010522181937.I51400@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org An interesting book review I just saw in Slashdot: "Digital Copyright" by Jessica Litman. I wonder what a "moderate" like Brett will think about chapter 2, which is reproduced on the web: http://www.msen.com/~litman/digital-copyright/ch2.html In fact, in the recent thread Brett referred to (and strongly recommended) the "book" by Litman referred to in the paper on libraries by Bartow, but the only reference to Litman in that paper is a journal article. Maybe it's this book you were thinking of? I'm referring to a mail of May 4, http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=299531+301464+/usr/local/www/db/text/2001/freebsd-chat/20010506.freebsd-chat The chapter excerpted above is one of the strongest indictments of the current copyright situation I have ever read. Even Stallman doesn't get into the guts of today's system and savage it the way she does: he writes philosophical arguments, she writes with expert real-world knowledge. I have not read the rest of the book; but I have just ordered it. Brett, if this is not what you had in mind, read the above chapter: since you admire the author I believe you will take what she says more seriously than random rants on this list.... And if this book is indeed what you had in mind, I'm curious to know why you thought that Mike was being "alarmist" and why you thought this book would set him right. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 22 11: 1:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8399937B42C for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:01:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b026.otenet.gr [195.167.121.154]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4MI0sZ20270; Tue, 22 May 2001 21:00:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4MI0wT03418; Tue, 22 May 2001 21:00:58 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:00:58 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mark Yeck Cc: Doug Young , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, KiwiCado23@aol.com Subject: Re: Question Message-ID: <20010522210058.B2784@hades.hell.gr> References: <01dc01c0e270$5c4ba610$0300a8c0@oracle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from y3k@gti.net on Tue, May 22, 2001 at 07:23:07AM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ This is more relevant to -chat now and not -questions. Moving it there. ] On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 07:23:07AM -0400, Mark Yeck wrote: > >On 22-May-01 Doug Young wrote: >> >>> Unsure of the proper source of information, I turn to whoever this e-mail >>> address belongs to. I attempted to install FreeBSD on a ancient 386 laptop >>> and it is not working, are you the correct e-mail address to diagnose the >>> problem or can you please direct me to the appropriate person. >> >> the "386 laptop" tells the story :) >> >> I've never found installation works properly with less than 16Mb RAM, >> and very few geriatric 386 laptops of my acquaintance had more than 4Mb. >> Furthermore laptops are probably the worst machine possible to install any >> unix ... they typically have the weirdest hardware in existence & its often >> difficult even installing Windows !! > > Not too long ago, I installed 4.2-R on a 486-25 laptop with 12MB RAM and > a 200MB disk. It was relatively straightforward, though I suspect that it > would take significantly more work to install on a system with less memory > or disk than that. Ahem. One cannot help but wonder... What are the practical limits in memory, disk and cpu, that FreeBSD releases will require to install properly? I mean, I have tested on my lowly Pentium 133 w/ 32 Mb of RAM and lots of disk space to install 2.2.8, various 3.x and practically all 4.x releases, without having any problems. But what are the absolut minimum requirements for installing, say 4.2-RELEASE (thats the most recent one I got in an .iso image stored on my disk)? Anyone got some real number about this? ... --giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 22 11:16:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C040537B42C for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:16:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01871; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:16:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522120432.04599e20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:08:50 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010522181937.I51400@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:19 AM 5/22/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >The chapter excerpted above is one of the strongest indictments of the >current copyright situation I have ever read. Even Stallman doesn't >get into the guts of today's system and savage it the way she does: You are misrepresenting Ms. Littman's position. Her indictment is not of copyright law per se but rather of the extreme positions taken by the combatants in the current content wars. Stallman, and others like him, have forced copyright holders to take extreme measures to ensure that they continue to receive revenue from what is rightfully theirs. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 22 19:36: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E65A937B424 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:36:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4N2Zn918605; Tue, 22 May 2001 22:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA10053; Tue, 22 May 2001 22:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA10049; Tue, 22 May 2001 22:35:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:35:48 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@y.glue.umd.edu To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522120432.04599e20@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 22 May 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > the combatants in the current content wars. Stallman, and others like > him, have forced copyright holders to take extreme measures to ensure > that they continue to receive revenue from what is rightfully theirs. In the case of Napster and friends, I can see this, but I see no justification for Stallman pushing others to stronger measures. Can you clarify and support this? Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 22 20:15:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F22337B422 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 20:15:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 57631 invoked by uid 100); 23 May 2001 03:15:41 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15115.11101.190385.187172@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:15:41 -0500 To: James Howard Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522120432.04599e20@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard types: > On Tue, 22 May 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > > the combatants in the current content wars. Stallman, and others like > > him, have forced copyright holders to take extreme measures to ensure > > that they continue to receive revenue from what is rightfully theirs. > > In the case of Napster and friends, I can see this, but I see no > justification for Stallman pushing others to stronger measures. Can you > clarify and support this? Of course he can't, he's just demoniziong Stallman so he can have somebody eevil to blame for these things. If you examine the situation with a cool head, you'll realize that publishers have been trying to extract extra revenue from the public for even longer, starting at least as early as the extension of copyright in the first quarter of the century. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 22 20:33:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [208.178.101.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C86137B43C for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 20:33:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from well.com (howardjp@well.com [208.178.101.2]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA18667; Tue, 22 May 2001 20:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by well.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA13449; Tue, 22 May 2001 20:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:33:24 -0700 (PDT) From: James Howard To: Mike Meyer Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... In-Reply-To: <15115.11101.190385.187172@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 22 May 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > Of course he can't, he's just demoniziong Stallman so he can have > somebody eevil to blame for these things. If you examine the > situation with a cool head, you'll realize that publishers have been > trying to extract extra revenue from the public for even longer, > starting at least as early as the extension of copyright in the first > quarter of the century. I know that, but I want to see what he says. Unfortunately, his mail host bounced my message :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 22 22: 7: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72BCD37B42C for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 22:07:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08298; Tue, 22 May 2001 23:06:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522225545.050b1540@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:59:17 -0600 To: James Howard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522120432.04599e20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:35 PM 5/22/2001, James Howard wrote: >In the case of Napster and friends, I can see this, but I see no >justification for Stallman pushing others to stronger measures. Can you >clarify and support this? Stallman's "copyleft" is all about making copyright meaningless. ("Intellecual property is evil!" shouted Stallman during one conversation I had with him several years ago.) And he does appear to advocate the violation of copyrights -- other than those held by the FSF, of course. One of the better known instances is a document in which he says that "piracy" should be called "sharing information with your neighbor." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 0:25:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC4B37B424 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 00:25:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4N7PTR04748 ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:25:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id JAA95562 ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:25:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:25:59 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... Message-ID: <20010523092559.B95221@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010522181937.I51400@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010522120432.04599e20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522120432.04599e20@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, May 22, 2001 at 12:08:50PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 22, 2001 at 12:08:50: > At 10:19 AM 5/22/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >The chapter excerpted above is one of the strongest indictments of the > >current copyright situation I have ever read. Even Stallman doesn't > >get into the guts of today's system and savage it the way she does: > > You are misrepresenting Ms. Littman's position. Her indictment is not > of copyright law per se but rather of the extreme positions taken by > the combatants in the current content wars. To quote from that chapter, second paragraph: Copyright laws become obsolete when technology renders the assumptions on which they were based outmoded. That has happened with increasing frequency since Congress enacted the its first copyright law in 1790. It goes on to give examples through history -- piano rolls, for example, which appeared in the 19th century. Does that fit with your definition of "current"? By the 1920s, the process (of encouraging content industries to dictate copyright law) was sufficiently entrenched that whenever a member of Congress came up with a legislative proposal without going through the cumbersome pre-legislative process of multi-party negotiation, the affected industries united to block the bill. Copyright bills passed only after private stakeholders agreed with one another on their substantive provisions. I have to conclude that either you can't read, or you believe Richard Stallman has been making mischief since 1790. (Well, ok I'm unfair. He does say that his ideals go back to 1776, so maybe you're talking about the same people he's talking about.) - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 7:54:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED1BA37B424 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 07:54:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4NErqF02229; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:53:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA14653; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:53:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14648; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:53:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:53:52 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@z.glue.umd.edu To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522225545.050b1540@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 22 May 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > Stallman's "copyleft" is all about making copyright meaningless. ("Intellecual > property is evil!" shouted Stallman during one conversation I had with him > several years ago.) And he does appear to advocate the violation of copyrights > -- other than those held by the FSF, of course. One of the better known > instances is a document in which he says that "piracy" should be called > "sharing information with your neighbor." Okay, but this does not show anyone forcing more protections on copyright in response. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 9:39:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C7237B42C for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:39:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ("port 1118"@[136.142.23.10]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3WJGATRPO0059VB@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:39:38 EDT Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:42:00 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Reiser and BSD. To: chat@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <3B0BE858.F738854C@asme.org> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From http://steven.haryan.to/interview-hans-reiser.html : "Linus put us in, and he is really a very reasonable fellow. Our competitors (yes, it is quite silly of them to think that they are competitors, but they really seem to do so and so here we are) really don't like it, and it is so sad that they are going into this control freaking jealousy stuff. I developed for Linux not BSD because BSD had these sorts of inner clicques (and also that Linux shipped a fully free OS first)." I have no idea of what he's talking about, but it sounds... funny. I seems that when people don't find technical arguments they just make up some reason to justify their decisions. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 9:43:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E95137B423 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13508; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:43:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523103318.05193b20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:35:02 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Reiser and BSD. In-Reply-To: <3B0BE858.F738854C@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Reiser is a GPL zealot. Has been for quite some time now. He apparently has aspirations to charge vendors before he implements his file system on other platforms -- in short, to use the GPL as a "poison pill." In real life, this is not a viable strategy. --Brett At 10:42 AM 5/23/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >>From http://steven.haryan.to/interview-hans-reiser.html : > >"Linus put us in, and he is really a very reasonable fellow. Our >competitors (yes, it is quite silly of them to think that they are >competitors, but they really seem to do so and so here we are) really >don't like it, and it is so sad that they are going into this control >freaking jealousy stuff. I developed for Linux not BSD because BSD had >these sorts of inner clicques (and also that Linux shipped a fully >free OS first)." > >I have no idea of what he's talking about, but it sounds... funny. I >seems that when people don't find technical arguments they just make >up some reason to justify their decisions. > > Pedro. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 10: 0:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B147937B424 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:00:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.28]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA14418; Wed, 23 May 2001 19:00:02 +0200 Received: by zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3CDF414CD0; Wed, 23 May 2001 19:00:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:00:02 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reiser and BSD. Message-ID: <20010523190002.A4150@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3B0BE858.F738854C@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B0BE858.F738854C@asme.org>; from giffunip@asme.org on Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:42:00PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Pedro F. Giffuni (giffunip@asme.org): > freaking jealousy stuff. I developed for Linux not BSD because BSD had > these sorts of inner clicques (and also that Linux shipped a fully > free OS first)." > I have no idea of what he's talking about, but it sounds... funny. I > seems that when people don't find technical arguments they just make > up some reason to justify their decisions. It even means that they invent new facts (_Linux_ (Linux is the kernel only, not a fully shipped OS) ... first). I didn't know, Linux predated the first BSD. He obviously knows about what he's speaking. Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 10: 9:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (cpe-66-1-147-119.ca.sprintbbd.net [66.1.147.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E53237B42C for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:09:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arun@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: from OMNI (unknown [192.168.1.100]) by sharmas.dhs.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EB7FA5DF2F for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:05:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Arun Sharma" To: Subject: Reiser: BSD cliques Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:09:18 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://steven.haryan.to/interview-hans-reiser.html So this is the nth time, I've heard the same allegation. Is anything being done to address it ? In particular, the openness of the development process. I sent serveral patches to the kernel to -hackers during the last year or two. All of them were send-pr'ed too. But not one of them made it into the kernel. Neither were they rejected based on some technical reasoning. I found that this was not true in some of the less "core" areas. Several of my contributions to -ports were accepted and PRs actively worked on. I personally think that it is more due to indifference than xenophobia. I've said this before too on -hackers, witout a response. I know people work on a voluntary basis, work on what's interesting to them, rather than sifting through loads of PRs. Some thoughts: - Instead of having a "kern" category in gnats, break it down to smaller subsystems and have people "own" subsystems (I know this exists, informally). - If this isn't addressed well, sooner or later, some motivated hot head somewhere, who doesn't like GPL is going to fork FreeBSD and I'd hate to see that happen. - send-pr web interface is not very usable right now. I can't attach a patch easily for eg. I've offered to fix it in the past, again no response. I really hope people will look at this as something more than a flamebait and look into it seriously. I can't help mentioning Linux in this context, but it's just too relevant to ignore. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 10:38:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (usr.srcsys.org [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7C9FB37B42C for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:38:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 27666 invoked by uid 1000); 23 May 2001 17:36:04 -0000 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:36:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Subject: Re: Reiser and BSD. In-Reply-To: <3B0BE858.F738854C@asme.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think by ``inner cliques'' he's talking about people who work on documentation, filesystems, etc., rather than one big dopey moron in charge of it all (as far as kernel goes). Also, Linux did NOT ship with a fully free system, etc., first. I recall GNU starting in 1984 and not having anything _working_ other than Emacs until they ripped stuff from 4.4BSD in late 80s. And even then... THEY HAD NO KERNEL!!!! Hans Reiser is a bit of a `confused' person. He has said DIRECTLY that he ONLY used the GPL and ONLY went with Linux because it meant he could CHARGE PEOPLE MONEY to relicense and port his code if they wanted to use it in commercial environments. IN SHORT, Linux is marketing for resiserfs for him, because it gets it in front of a large audience, and he can put it under a shitty license so anyone who wants to USE it has to PAY him. As for the `competitors' thing, RMS kinda sorta started it in ~1989 when he started ranting over and over about how evil and bad BSD was. I could be wrong. /joseph -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, & xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d-- s+:++ a--- C+++ UB++++ P+++ L- E---- W++ N+ o-- K- w++ O M+ V PS+ PE- Y+ PGP++ t++ 5-- X+ R tv- b++ DI+ D--- G e* h! r% z+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ On Wed, 23 May 2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > >From http://steven.haryan.to/interview-hans-reiser.html : > > "Linus put us in, and he is really a very reasonable fellow. Our > competitors (yes, it is quite silly of them to think that they are > competitors, but they really seem to do so and so here we are) really > don't like it, and it is so sad that they are going into this control > freaking jealousy stuff. I developed for Linux not BSD because BSD had > these sorts of inner clicques (and also that Linux shipped a fully > free OS first)." > > I have no idea of what he's talking about, but it sounds... funny. I > seems that when people don't find technical arguments they just make > up some reason to justify their decisions. > > Pedro. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 10:51:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D89F837B422 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:51:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA79627; Wed, 23 May 2001 19:50:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Arun Sharma" Cc: Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 May 2001 19:50:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Arun Sharma" writes: > In particular, the openness of the development process. > I sent serveral patches to the kernel to -hackers during > the last year or two. All of them were send-pr'ed too. Lack of manpower. Nothing happens to a PR unless some committer happens to notice it and take an interest in it. Find yourself a pet committer and have him review and commit your patches; soon enough he'll tire of it and sponsor you for commit privileges, at which point you'll have no-one to blame when things break (which I sometimes believe is the only reason we give people commit privileges - so they'll stop complaining) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 10:56:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF34137B422 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:56:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14348; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:55:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523114529.050bbd30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 11:47:43 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010523092559.B95221@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522120432.04599e20@localhost> <20010522181937.I51400@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010522120432.04599e20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:25 AM 5/23/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >To quote from that chapter, second paragraph: > > Copyright laws become obsolete when technology renders the > assumptions on which they were based outmoded. That has happened with > increasing frequency since Congress enacted the its first copyright > law in 1790. Copyright laws have been revised continuously since that time. However, she is correct in that technology has made it far too easy to violate copyright holders' rights. And Napster and its members were (and, to some extent, still are) doing it with abandon. >It goes on to give examples through history -- piano rolls, for >example, which appeared in the 19th century. Does that fit with >your definition of "current"? Just one of many examples of situations in which the law needed to be modified to account for technology. So? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 10:57: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB72C37B423 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:56:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14373; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:56:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523114809.050d03e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 11:48:38 -0600 To: James Howard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522225545.050b1540@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:53 AM 5/23/2001, James Howard wrote: >Okay, but this does not show anyone forcing more protections on copyright >in response. For that, just see the text of the DMCA. It's on the EFF site. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 11: 0:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rapier.smartspace.co.za (rapier.smartspace.co.za [66.8.25.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E64137B422 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:00:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rapier.smartspace.co.za) Received: (qmail 23037 invoked by uid 1001); 23 May 2001 17:59:50 -0000 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:59:49 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Arun Sharma Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques Message-ID: <20010523195949.B20987@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from arun@sharmas.dhs.org on Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:09:18AM -0700 Organization: Building Intelligence X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, > - send-pr web interface is not very usable right now. I can't attach > a patch easily for eg. I've offered to fix it in the past, again > no response. Feel free to fix it. You now have "permission" to work on fixing it, if that helps. I'll commit it, assuming you can set up a test page for me to test that it works. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 11: 2:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853D137B423 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:02:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4NI24k16272; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA02082; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02076; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:02:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:02:03 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@y.glue.umd.edu To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523114809.050d03e0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 23 May 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:53 AM 5/23/2001, James Howard wrote: > > >Okay, but this does not show anyone forcing more protections on copyright > >in response. > > For that, just see the text of the DMCA. It's on the EFF site. The DCMA is simply a corporate power grab. It would have happened with or without the Free Software Foundation. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 11:21:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ABF937B422 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:21:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14593; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:20:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523121004.050bea20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:12:12 -0600 To: James Howard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523114809.050d03e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:02 PM 5/23/2001, James Howard wrote: >The DCMA is simply a corporate power grab. It would have happened with or >without the Free Software Foundation. I do not believe that it would have happened, or contained the provisions it did, were it not for Napster, Stallman, Barlow, and others who rallied consumers to use the Internet to grab content without paying. The same is true of UCITA. The war was escalated, and both sides took extreme positions. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 11:27:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 008C837B43E for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:27:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 86779 invoked by uid 100); 23 May 2001 18:27:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15116.288.954238.305243@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:27:44 -0500 To: "Arun Sharma" Cc: Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arun Sharma types: > > http://steven.haryan.to/interview-hans-reiser.html > > So this is the nth time, I've heard the same allegation. > Is anything being done to address it ? > > In particular, the openness of the development process. > I sent serveral patches to the kernel to -hackers during > the last year or two. All of them were send-pr'ed too. I've found that asking for someone to deal with it in the appropriate groups generates good results. Possibly not always the ones you want, but the things aren't left hanging forever. > But not one of them made it into the kernel. Neither were > they rejected based on some technical reasoning. Without knowing the reasons, I can't really comment on that. I've had stuff accepted, and had stuff rejected for non-technical reasons. In some cases, I disagreed with the reasons - but at least I knew what they were. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 11:53:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 425FB37B423 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 87388 invoked by uid 100); 23 May 2001 18:53:36 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15116.1840.41725.498698@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:53:36 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523121004.050bea20@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523114809.050d03e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010523121004.050bea20@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 12:02 PM 5/23/2001, James Howard wrote: > >The DCMA is simply a corporate power grab. It would have happened with or > >without the Free Software Foundation. > I do not believe that it would have happened, or contained the provisions > it did, were it not for Napster, Stallman, Barlow, and others who rallied > consumers to use the Internet to grab content without paying. The same > is true of UCITA. The war was escalated, and both sides took extreme > positions. Typical glass pucky. The DMCA is a response to people simply hacking around the previous copyright protection technologies in order to retain their fair use rights. If you believe that there isn't a way to keep people from defeating those technologies, making trying to defeat them illegal is an obvious next step. The only thing that would have prevented the DMCA - or something very like it - from coming into being would have been if people didn't trivial defeat things like SMCS. What the people behind DMCA are using it for is an excellent indication of what caused it to be crafted. It's being used to try and prevent people from telling others how to play DVDs on their computers, to keep researchers from publishing their research, and by CRQ to threaten people publishing cuecat decoding algorithms. None of these things involve copying content over the internet. For a quick overview of UCITA - and why Librarians are worried about it - see the American Library Association page on it at . http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 11:56:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 021A037B42C for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:56:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 87519 invoked by uid 100); 23 May 2001 18:56:40 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15116.2024.409793.438009@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:56:40 -0500 To: Alexander Langer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reiser and BSD. In-Reply-To: <20010523190002.A4150@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> References: <3B0BE858.F738854C@asme.org> <20010523190002.A4150@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexander Langer types: > Thus spake Pedro F. Giffuni (giffunip@asme.org): > > > freaking jealousy stuff. I developed for Linux not BSD because BSD had > > these sorts of inner clicques (and also that Linux shipped a fully > > free OS first)." > > > I have no idea of what he's talking about, but it sounds... funny. I > > seems that when people don't find technical arguments they just make > > up some reason to justify their decisions. > > It even means that they invent new facts (_Linux_ (Linux is the kernel > only, not a fully shipped OS) ... first). > > I didn't know, Linux predated the first BSD. Linux came out with a "complete" system while BSD was tied up in lawsuits. I think FreeBSD 2.0 was the first version of FreeBSD that was free of the possibility of lawsuits from the holders of the Unix copyright. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 12:13: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D91D137B424 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:12:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a098.otenet.gr [212.205.215.98]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4NJCrx17957; Wed, 23 May 2001 22:12:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4NJD4d09471; Wed, 23 May 2001 22:13:04 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 22:13:04 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Arun Sharma Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques Message-ID: <20010523221303.A9366@hades.hell.gr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from arun@sharmas.dhs.org on Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:09:18AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:09:18AM -0700, Arun Sharma wrote: > ... > > But not one of them made it into the kernel. Neither were > they rejected based on some technical reasoning. I found > that this was not true in some of the less "core" areas. > Several of my contributions to -ports were accepted and > PRs actively worked on. > > I personally think that it is more due to indifference > than xenophobia. I would not call it indifference when it comes to my submissions. I've been using FreeBSD since September 1999, and several send-pr's of mine were commited by all those friendly folk up there. But what was truly amazing was the conversation and chatting, and the discussion of what I once proposed as a crontab entry for periodic daily/weekly/monthly, which was tested and tested again by so many people that we eventually found all its majestic flaws. This very spirit of actually discussing what you have to propose was what won me for FreeBSD. Big time :) It seems to me that its rather subjective what one feels about the developers of FreeBSD. And we all have our opinions based on our prior experience. All I can say is that at least *I* (and I can only talk about me) am very impressed about the way FreeBSD is developed, and this is one of the major reasons that I stick to it. --giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 13:29:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B0B37B423 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:29:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4NKTBh17183; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA14652; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14648; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:29:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:29:10 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@z.glue.umd.edu To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523121004.050bea20@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 23 May 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > I do not believe that it would have happened, or contained the provisions > it did, were it not for Napster, Stallman, Barlow, and others who rallied > consumers to use the Internet to grab content without paying. The same > is true of UCITA. The war was escalated, and both sides took extreme > positions. This proves nothing. Which was my point to begin with. This claim is completely unverifiable until you find Valenti saying "Stallman is such a jerk, we need to do something to get even with him." Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 16:29:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A70337B423 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:29:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4NNTZ816935; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:29:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: arun@sharmas.dhs.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010523162935K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:29:35 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 6 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, our general reaction to someone who opens too many PRs and helps to overwhelm the already fragile and overworked volunteers who are willing to close PRs (and there aren't many) is to suggest commit access. Is that something you'd be willing to do? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 18:52:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971F737B423 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:52:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18912; Wed, 23 May 2001 19:51:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523194149.04faba10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:42:51 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , Alexander Langer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Reiser and BSD. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15116.2024.409793.438009@guru.mired.org> References: <20010523190002.A4150@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> <3B0BE858.F738854C@asme.org> <20010523190002.A4150@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:56 PM 5/23/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Linux came out with a "complete" system while BSD was tied up in >lawsuits. I think FreeBSD 2.0 was the first version of FreeBSD that >was free of the possibility of lawsuits from the holders of the Unix >copyright. No one is EVER free of the possibility of lawsuits, at least not in the U.S. of A. Whether those lawsuits have merits is another matter. ;-) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 18:54:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93A937B424 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:54:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18943; Wed, 23 May 2001 19:54:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523194309.04fb5160@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:46:04 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... In-Reply-To: <15116.1840.41725.498698@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523121004.050bea20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010523114809.050d03e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010523121004.050bea20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:53 PM 5/23/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Typical glass pucky. Typical muck and mire. ;-) >The DMCA is a response to people simply hacking >around the previous copyright protection technologies in order to >retain their fair use rights. Not true at all. The "previous copyright protection technologies," as you call them (they were actually not protecting copyrights but rather restricting access) were hacked around primarily in order to steal, and occasionally for backup purposes. There has rarely if ever been any need to do so to ensure "fair use rights" (which, by the way, are murky and have largely been delineated by court cases rather than statute). --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 18:57:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D255837B42C for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:57:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18966; Wed, 23 May 2001 19:57:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523194620.04fc7880@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:48:38 -0600 To: James Howard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523121004.050bea20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:29 PM 5/23/2001, James Howard wrote: >> I do not believe that it would have happened, or contained the provisions >> it did, were it not for Napster, Stallman, Barlow, and others who rallied >> consumers to use the Internet to grab content without paying. The same >> is true of UCITA. The war was escalated, and both sides took extreme >> positions. > >This proves nothing. Which was my point to begin with. This claim is >completely unverifiable until you find Valenti saying "Stallman is such a >jerk, we need to do something to get even with him." Not so. If a demagogue stirs up the rabble, and the rabble do damage, those being damaged need to protect themselves against the rabble. They may not even know who is doing the stirring, but they do need to limit the damage. It's not a matter of "getting even," it's a matter of damage control. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 23 20:11:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (cpe-66-1-147-119.ca.sprintbbd.net [66.1.147.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43BCD37B423 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 20:11:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arun@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: from z3 (z3.mirabella.net [192.168.1.2]) by sharmas.dhs.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EA85E5DF2F; Wed, 23 May 2001 20:07:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Arun Sharma" To: "Jordan Hubbard" Cc: Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:05:11 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20010523162935K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Well, our general reaction to someone who opens too many PRs and helps > to overwhelm the already fragile and overworked volunteers who are > willing to close PRs (and there aren't many) is to suggest commit > access. Is that something you'd be willing to do? > > - Jordan That puts me at the receiving end :) Given that I have a day time job to do that has nothing to do with open source or FreeBSD, it's going to be a bit tight, but I hate to let this opportunity go. I'll be glad to help out. However, I still think there may be lots of people who might not be interested in becoming commiters, but might be able to make useful contributions to FreeBSD. I think more needs to be done to make it easy for such people to help FreeBSD. Watch out for upcoming patches to send-pr's web UI! -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 2:15:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFEE437B423 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 02:15:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4O9FoR31671 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:15:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA52484 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:16:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:16:22 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... Message-ID: <20010524111622.A52234@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522120432.04599e20@localhost> <20010522181937.I51400@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010522120432.04599e20@localhost> <20010523092559.B95221@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010523114529.050bbd30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523114529.050bbd30@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:47:43AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >It goes on to give examples through history -- piano rolls, for > >example, which appeared in the 19th century. Does that fit with > >your definition of "current"? > > Just one of many examples of situations in which the law needed > to be modified to account for technology. So? So? So her essential point, which you will not understand since you refuse to read the thing except what I quote at you (and only selectively at that -- you ignored the next quote I supplied), is that the "general public" has not benefited for over 100 years from the modifications to copyright law. They do not sit at committees; their interests are not represented. It is a monopoly of content producers, a cartel, and she makes it quite clear she has no sympathy with it. And it does not date from 1984 (the year of Richard Stallman). It dates at least from the late 19th century. If you want to read an anti-Stallman position in her document, that's your misinterpretation. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 2:37:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2085237B423 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 02:37:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03054; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:37:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Arun Sharma Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques References: <20010523140632.A22510@undressed.sclt.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 May 2001 11:37:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010523140632.A22510@undressed.sclt.com> Message-ID: Lines: 43 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arun Sharma writes: > On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:50:17PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Find yourself a pet committer and have him review and commit your patches > Let me play the devil's advocate for a moment. You're basically saying: > join the clique :) When I mailed Intel CPU cache size detection patches > to Linus Torvalds back in 97-98, he just commited them. I didn't have > to find a pet committer. Yes you did: Linus. You contacted him directly. When you submit a PR, you don't contact a committer directly; you just add a PR to a database that already lists thousands. > Some people may lack the social skills needed to go out to a bar and > socialize with a few people to find the right committer. Who's talking about going out to a bar? Find someone who has previously worked on the code you have patches for, and mail him the patches and / or a reference to the PR. Is that so hard? > All I'm trying to say is, why does it have to be so difficult ? If > one person like Linus can handle hundreds of patches, why can't the > 200+ committers handle a much smaller number of them ? A much *larger* number of patches. Also, Linus maintains a single branch of a code base about one fifth the size of FreeBSD's, and FreeBSD's 200+ committers, only a small portion actually work on source code. > May be there > isn't a streamlined mechanism in place, in which case we need to > do some work there. Dispatching can't be done mechanically, because a machine can't evaluate the quality of a PR, or recognize and correct a misfiled PR. We need humans to do it, and to paraphrase Jamie Zawinski, it's monkey work, man! It's very tedious, time-consuming, unrewarding work, and nobody wants to do it, so unless you're ready to volunteer for that work, just play the game the way it's played. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 3:19:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC37437B423 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 03:19:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4OAJdR35909 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:19:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA54562 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:20:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:20:10 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I came across this on http://lwn.net/2001/0524/index.php3 Reactions? IPFilter is the firewalling system used in FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD; it provides many of the same features as the Linux "netfilter" package. The IPFilter code is copyrighted by Darren Reed, and has long carried the following license text: Redistribution and use in source and binary forms are permitted provided that this notice is preserved and due credit is given to the original author and the contributors. A recent update, however, has added the following: Yes, this means that derivitive or modified works are not permitted without the author's prior consent. That means, of course, that IPFilter is not free (or even open source) software. Mr. Reed claims that this is not a license change, that the IPFilter license has never allowed the modification of the code. This, of course, has come as a surprise to some users, who had assumed that an important part of BSD would be distributed under the BSD license. It is also not surprising that, in a free software climate, people might interpret "use" to include modification. This is not a theoretical issue. OpenBSD distributes a modified version of IPFilter; the modifications, they say, are needed to make IPFilter work properly with their system. OpenBSD leader Theo de Raadt has told us he does not believe the "reinterpretation" of the license is valid. Mr. de Raadt is not known for backing down from confrontations, so an interesting legal situation could develop here. Mr. Reed is unconcerned about potential problems with his license. What if he gets hit by a bus and no longer distributes updates to IPFilter? "I won't care, I'll finally get to RIP." He also refused to answer questions from LWN ("I really don't like Linux"). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 5:10:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55DB337B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 05:10:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA22379; Thu, 24 May 2001 06:01:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010524053451.0443c350@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 05:38:01 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? In-Reply-To: <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:20 AM 5/24/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > IPFilter is the firewalling system used in FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and > NetBSD; it provides many of the same features as the Linux "netfilter" > package. The IPFilter code is copyrighted by Darren Reed, and has long > carried the following license text: > > Redistribution and use in source and binary forms are permitted > provided that this notice is preserved and due credit is given to the > original author and the contributors. This means that the license is not compatible with the GPL (a good thing, IMHO). (The GPL allows the author to be denied credit and in fact prohibits any license provision that would allow the author to insist upon getting credit for his hard work. Historically, this trait of the GPL is due to Stallman's contempt for BSD.) > A recent update, however, has added the following: > > Yes, this means that derivitive or modified works are not permitted > without the author's prior consent. > > That means, of course, that IPFilter is not free (or even open source) > software. But didn't he just give that consent immediately above? I don't see a problem. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 5:12:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191F837B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 05:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C22FF756B; Thu, 24 May 2001 05:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E781D8F; Thu, 24 May 2001 05:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 05:14:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... In-Reply-To: <20010524111622.A52234@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 24 May 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :So? So her essential point, which you will not understand since you :refuse to read the thing except what I quote at you (and only :selectively at that -- you ignored the next quote I supplied), is that :the "general public" has not benefited for over 100 years from the :modifications to copyright law. They do not sit at committees; their :interests are not represented. It is a monopoly of content producers, The point of copyright and patent law is not to benefit the general public directly, but to spur art and science in the interest of long term progress. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 5:49:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E2737B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 05:49:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4OCnFR45692 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:49:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA60265 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:49:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:49:47 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010524144947.I52234@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010524053451.0443c350@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010524053451.0443c350@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 05:38:01AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 24, 2001 at 05:38:01: > At 04:20 AM 5/24/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Yes, this means that derivitive or modified works are not permitted > > without the author's prior consent. > > > > That means, of course, that IPFilter is not free (or even open source) > > software. > > But didn't he just give that consent immediately above? I don't see a > problem. This confirms my impression that when you read something, you think it means whatever you want it to mean. He didn't give consent for modification, only for redistribution. If you follow the mails linked from the lwn.net page, he makes it clear that his aim is that there should be only one true ipfilter, which comes from him and him alone. Of course, Dan Bernstein does the same thing, but he adds that you can *always* legally distribute modifications as patches if you want to. He only forbids you from distributing a modified source tarball or binary... If he's right in his law, the same would be true of ipfilter too. Others have suggested an Apache-style license for ipfilter, where you can modify the code but must change the name of the program to distribute your modifications. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 5:57: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949B237B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 05:57:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4OCv2R46821 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:57:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA60582 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:57:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:57:34 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... Message-ID: <20010524145734.J52234@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010524111622.A52234@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 05:14:00AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden said on May 24, 2001 at 05:14:00: > > The point of copyright and patent law is not to benefit the general public > directly, but to spur art and science in the interest of long term > progress. The point is that this progress is meant to be to the benefit of the public. Extending the copyright on Mickey Mouse does not benefit the public. Nor does it benefit the creator, who's dead. (The creator's rights over his work are a direct consideration in Europe, I've heard, but in the US the creator is given such rights only as an incentive, not as an end in itself.) The point Litman makes -- quite plainly and unambiguously -- is that every time a technological advance has had unintended (good or bad) advances for copyright holders, the big companies who have large stakes in copyright tend to push legislation which will retain the good (for themselves) consequences and destroy the bad (for themselves) consequences. Such legislation is not discussed adequately: whatever the big companies say, goes. And this has been the entrenched situation since the 1920s. This is not only bad for the public; it is also bad for independent creative people, and for libraries. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 5:58: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0039137B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 05:58:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 18429 invoked by uid 100); 24 May 2001 12:58:05 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15117.1373.65006.684938@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:58:05 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright law, again... In-Reply-To: References: <20010524111622.A52234@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden types: > On Thu, 24 May 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > :So? So her essential point, which you will not understand since you > :refuse to read the thing except what I quote at you (and only > :selectively at that -- you ignored the next quote I supplied), is that > :the "general public" has not benefited for over 100 years from the > :modifications to copyright law. They do not sit at committees; their > :interests are not represented. It is a monopoly of content producers, > The point of copyright and patent law is not to benefit the general public > directly, but to spur art and science in the interest of long term > progress. Of course, the point of long term progress is to benefit the general public. The laws that she is indicting were - and are - being created by a process in which the general public has no say. While they technically have a say via their representatives in the government, those representatives generally just rubber-stamp proposals from the people providing them with campaign funds. The result is easy to predict, and has been repeated in a number of areas of law: those writing the laws rip off the public until some members of the public gets offended and start complaining. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 6:23: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 107FB37B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 06:23:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4ODN2R48428 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 15:23:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA61555 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 15:23:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:23:34 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010524152334.K52234@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010524053451.0443c350@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010524053451.0443c350@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 05:38:01AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 24, 2001 at 05:38:01: > > This means that the license is not compatible with the GPL (a good > thing, IMHO). (The GPL allows the author to be denied credit and > in fact prohibits any license provision that would allow the author > to insist upon getting credit for his hard work. Historically, this > trait of the GPL is due to Stallman's contempt for BSD.) Incidentally (at the risk of triggering yet another GPL flame war) you're wrong there too. They explicitly encourage distributing a clear copyright notice (which includes mentioning authorship) as part of the program. http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl-faq.html#IWantCredit What Stallman opposed was the "advertising clause" which said all advertising materials concerning the software must mention the UCB; if every contributor added on a similar clause (he cites the instance of NetBSD which needed 75 such notices in 1997), this would be a problem. The clause he's talking about is in /usr/src/COPYRIGHT on your FreeBSD machine: 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: This product includes software developed by the University of California, Berkeley and its contributors. which is very different from what the IPFilter notice says. The IPfilter notice, by itself, wouldn't conflict with the GPL if it didn't restrict modification. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 7:53:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB2537B43C for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 07:53:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cfuhrman@tfcci.com) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA09697; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:53:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma009684; Thu, 24 May 01 10:53:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:53:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Fuhrman X-X-Sender: To: , Subject: Oracle DB Alternatives? (WAAAAAAY Off-topic) Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Howdy, Okay, this is WAAAAAY off-topic for this group but given the technical expertise here, I'd thought I'd ask anyway. The company I work for currently uses Oracle for one of it's platforms. Right now Oracle is running on relatively inexpensive hardware (Solaris x86) and for what it does it works. The problem is that we're starting to reach the performance limit of the db servers. What's the solution? Upgrade our boxes. We would absolutely LOVE to put our db engine on Sun Enterprise-class servers and we've even got an E450 we could put it on. The main problem is that Oracle licensing is, hmmm, a bit out of our budget. Like, way out our budget. Like, who-do-you-think-we-are-friggen-Boeing out of our budget. So we're now faced with the following rather unpleasant scenarios: 1) Pay Oracle a boat-load of money for every server we purchase 2) Switch Database Engines Does anyone have any experience with migrating from Oracle to another platform? We're presently looking at the following alternatives: * Informix * IBM DB2 * PostgreSQL (My boss keeps asking me about this) We're presently using Oracle's Advanced Replication feature for redundancy and this is something we'd like to have (although we could go with simple replication if we had to). Most of our applications are written in Perl/DBI which makes for easy porting and we've got some web servers that bang on the back-end. They're looking to make a decision in a couple of weeks so if anyone has ANY input, I'd love to hear it. - -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net iD8DBQE7DSBjtZTBgtmnGNERAnP0AKCPikUwru+vsDIWKcfQWB0YlBulAACg4N41 eUYfrYR7g1LuS0QeB6woBj4= =0VOv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 9: 1:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D922637B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:01:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1132"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3XWFRZOVC005JLV@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:01:49 EDT Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:08:35 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B0D3203.8A462906@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > ... Quoting LWN: > > That means, of course, that IPFilter is not free (or even open source) > software. > I'm sorry for RMS... but free software is software I don't have to pay for. Don't tell me he also invented freedom! I like free beer, and in this case it comes with source code. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 9: 8: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862E237B42C for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:08:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1141"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3XWNGQNU4005WUP@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:08:01 EDT Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:14:46 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Oracle DB Alternatives? (WAAAAAAY Off-topic) To: Chris Fuhrman Cc: colug@stones.wcbe.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B0D3376.D9C5C6F1@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I suggest you ask in the freebsd-database list, explaining better your requirements. Also check the postgreSQL web site, as it also has good links for other alternatives (Interbase, mySQL and others). cheers, Pedro. Chris Fuhrman wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Howdy, > > Okay, this is WAAAAAY off-topic for this group but given the technical > expertise here, I'd thought I'd ask anyway. > > The company I work for currently uses Oracle for one of it's platforms. > Right now Oracle is running on relatively inexpensive hardware (Solaris > x86) and for what it does it works. The problem is that we're starting to > reach the performance limit of the db servers. What's the solution? > Upgrade our boxes. > > We would absolutely LOVE to put our db engine on Sun Enterprise-class > servers and we've even got an E450 we could put it on. The main problem > is that Oracle licensing is, hmmm, a bit out of our budget. Like, way out > our budget. Like, who-do-you-think-we-are-friggen-Boeing out of our > budget. > > So we're now faced with the following rather unpleasant scenarios: > > 1) Pay Oracle a boat-load of money for every server we purchase > > 2) Switch Database Engines > > Does anyone have any experience with migrating from Oracle to another > platform? We're presently looking at the following alternatives: > > * Informix > * IBM DB2 > * PostgreSQL (My boss keeps asking me about this) > > We're presently using Oracle's Advanced Replication feature for redundancy > and this is something we'd like to have (although we could go with simple > replication if we had to). Most of our applications are written in > Perl/DBI which makes for easy porting and we've got some web servers that > bang on the back-end. > > They're looking to make a decision in a couple of weeks so if anyone has > ANY input, I'd love to hear it. > > - -- > Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications > cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer > (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | > (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net > > iD8DBQE7DSBjtZTBgtmnGNERAnP0AKCPikUwru+vsDIWKcfQWB0YlBulAACg4N41 > eUYfrYR7g1LuS0QeB6woBj4= > =0VOv > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 9:53:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A0537B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:53:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4OGF2129864; Thu, 24 May 2001 18:15:04 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:07:11 +0200 To: Chris Fuhrman , , From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Oracle DB Alternatives? (WAAAAAAY Off-topic) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:53 AM -0400 5/24/01, Chris Fuhrman wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with migrating from Oracle to another > platform? We're presently looking at the following alternatives: > > * Informix > * IBM DB2 > * PostgreSQL (My boss keeps asking me about this) Out of curiosity, is there a reason why Sybase isn't on this list? Historically, they've been the primary competitor to Oracle (much, much more so than Informix or DB2 has ever been), Sun is one of their two native development platforms, and they've tended to be much more sensitive to licensing issues, etc.... So, I'm really curious to know why you haven't investigated using them instead. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 9:56:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (cpe-66-1-147-119.ca.sprintbbd.net [66.1.147.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A053F37B42C for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:56:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: by sharmas.dhs.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 0CB845E001; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:52:39 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: send-pr.html (Was Re: Reiser: BSD cliques) Message-ID: <20010524095239.A13027@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20010523195949.B20987@rapier.smartspace.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: <20010523195949.B20987@rapier.smartspace.co.za>; from nbm@mithrandr.moria.org on Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:59:49PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:59:49PM +0200, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > Hi, > > > > - send-pr web interface is not very usable right now. I can't attach > > a patch easily for eg. I've offered to fix it in the past, again > > no response. > > Feel free to fix it. You now have "permission" to work on fixing it, if > that helps. I'll commit it, assuming you can set up a test page for me > to test that it works. http://sharmas.dhs.org:81/~adsharma/freebsd/send-pr.html http://sharmas.dhs.org:81/~adsharma/freebsd/dosendpr.cgi.txt Sends email to the address filing the report :) $ pkg_info -x p5 p5-IO-String-1.01_1 Simplified Perl5 module to handle I/O on in-core strings p5-IO-stringy-1.220 Perl5 module for using IO handles with non-file objects p5-MIME-Base64-2.12 Perl5 module for Base64 and Quoted-Printable encodings p5-MIME-Tools-5.410 A set of perl5 modules for MIME p5-Mail-Tools-1.15 Perl5 modules for dealing with Internet e-mail messages p5-Net-1.0703 Perl5 modules to access and use network protocols The box is running -current. -Arun PS: I'm no perl hacker and prefer python. But past experience tells me that this is not the bikeshed I want to paint :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 9:59: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D64D37B423 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:59:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4OGx5R62368 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 18:59:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA69177 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 18:59:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:59:37 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010524185937.A69030@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> <3B0D3203.8A462906@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B0D3203.8A462906@pitt.edu>; from pfg1+@pitt.edu on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 12:08:35PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Quoting LWN: > > > > That means, of course, that IPFilter is not free (or even open source) > > software. > > > I'm sorry for RMS... but free software is software I don't have to pay > for. Irrelevant. FreeBSD should be modifiable, and modifications should be distributable. If the author of IPfilter will not allow modifications, I certainly see it as a problem (and so, according to that article, do the OpenBSD people) for obvious reasons. > Don't tell me he also invented freedom! I like free beer, and in this > case it comes with source code. Does it? Which one? (assuming, by source code, you mean the detailed recipe and method which lets you brew it yourself) - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 10: 5:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3901B37B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:05:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cfuhrman@tfcci.com) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA17679; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:06:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma017669; Thu, 24 May 01 13:05:51 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:05:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Fuhrman X-X-Sender: To: Brad Knowles Cc: , Subject: Re: Oracle DB Alternatives? (WAAAAAAY Off-topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 24 May 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > Out of curiosity, is there a reason why Sybase isn't on this > list? Historically, they've been the primary competitor to Oracle > (much, much more so than Informix or DB2 has ever been), Sun is one > of their two native development platforms, and they've tended to be > much more sensitive to licensing issues, etc.... > > So, I'm really curious to know why you haven't investigated using > them instead. > I don't have any personal experience with Sybase although we're open to just about anything (except MySQL or anything that only runs on Microsoft Operating Systems). What are some of the pros and cons related to Sybase? -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 10:13:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1120C37B423 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:13:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4OHDYU46046; Thu, 24 May 2001 17:13:34 GMT Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:13:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? In-Reply-To: <3B0D3203.8A462906@pitt.edu> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 24 May 2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Don't tell me he also invented freedom! I like free beer, and in this > case it comes with source code. Wouldn't that be interesting; Budweiser printing the exact process to make thier beer.... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 10:15:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC08D37B423 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:15:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 152yi3-0002AX-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 18:15:40 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4OHFdH94940 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 24 May 2001 18:15:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:15:39 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: "Windows brings us something we don't have..." Message-ID: <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a quote from a zdnet article on organizations adopting Windows 2000 and XP. Is there anything we can learn from this? What could we add to FreeBSD that could fill this 'gap,' if there truly is one? For the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (news - web sites), deeply mired in its first installation of Windows 2000 on a campus that has spent decades as a Unix (news - web sites)-only environment, it's simply a matter of first things first. "There are people on campus who aren't too keen on Windows at all, but as we work with them, they are beginning to see that Windows brings us something we don't have," says Danilo Almeida, a systems programmer in MIT's information systems department. jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 10:20:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9757437B423 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:20:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4OHKdR64071 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 19:20:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA69978 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 19:21:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:21:11 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Windows brings us something we don't have..." Message-ID: <20010524192111.B69030@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 06:15:39PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick said on May 24, 2001 at 18:15:39: > > This is a quote from a zdnet article on organizations adopting Windows 2000 > and XP. Is there anything we can learn from this? What could we add to > FreeBSD that could fill this 'gap,' if there truly is one? Rather hard to do anything, unless we know what the gap is, right? Does the article say? What's the URL? MIT has a building named after Gates, IIRC, and huge funding from him, so I'm a bit surprised that the first installation of W2K is as late as this... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 10:29:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF5B837B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:29:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4OHT0834643; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:29:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: arun@sharmas.dhs.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques In-Reply-To: References: <20010523162935K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010524102900J.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:29:00 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 25 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Arun Sharma" Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:05:11 -0700 > That puts me at the receiving end :) Given that I have a day time job > to do that has nothing to do with open source or FreeBSD, it's going > to be a bit tight, but I hate to let this opportunity go. I'll be glad > to help out. OK, can you give me a list of your open PRs? I'll need it in making the case to -core. > However, I still think there may be lots of people who might not be > interested in becoming commiters, but might be able to make useful > contributions to FreeBSD. I think more needs to be done to make it > easy for such people to help FreeBSD. Watch out for upcoming patches > to send-pr's web UI! Well, making it easier to format and send PRs will certainly be a help, but without committers dedicated to reviewing and close those PRs, we'll just get deeper backlogged. That's the real shortage around here. :( - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 10:47:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0C537B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:47:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4OHkq834730; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:46:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: cfuhrman@tfcci.com Cc: colug@stones.wcbe.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oracle DB Alternatives? (WAAAAAAY Off-topic) In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010524104652X.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:46:52 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 6 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You should definitely check out PostgresSQL - it's a very robust and featureful database. I don't know much about Borland's Interbase, but that's also been freely released and is in the ports collection. At least nobody could say that one wasn't commercial quality. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 10:51:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 477DF37B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:51:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4OHpRR66180 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 19:51:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA71137 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 19:52:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:52:00 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: arun@sharmas.dhs.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques Message-ID: <20010524195200.D69030@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010523162935K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010524102900J.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010524102900J.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@osd.bsdi.com on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 10:29:00AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, making it easier to format and send PRs will certainly be a > help, but without committers dedicated to reviewing and close those > PRs, we'll just get deeper backlogged. That's the real shortage > around here. :( Do we need to deal with PRs for old releases (which seem to be the majority out there)? It has happened to me on other software projects that I filed a PR, then the problem mysteriously vanished during the next release, so I sent a follow-up and it was closed -- but it's likely that many of the existing reported problems had also vanished and were never closed. Would it be useful for someone to go through the PRs, and if it's on 2.2.8 or something, mail the original sender to confirm whether this is still an issue? I'm willing to spend some time on that sort of thing (famous last words?) I'm not much good for anything else, as far as FreeBSD is concerned, it seems to me... The other thing is to weed out duplicate PRs -- different reports describing essentially the same problem. I have seen this in FreeBSD as well as other projects. Unfortunately I can't actually test the bug reports -- at least the ones involving system crashes -- because I don't have my "own" machine to play with just yet... Anyway, if I want to make myself useful here, exactly what do I do? Is there a sort of meta-sendpr mechanism to fix problems with the current bug list? - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 10:59:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832D537B424 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:59:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cfuhrman@tfcci.com) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA19892; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:59:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma019881; Thu, 24 May 01 13:58:43 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:58:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Fuhrman X-X-Sender: To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Subject: Re: Oracle DB Alternatives? (WAAAAAAY Off-topic) In-Reply-To: <20010524104652X.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm actually trying to push PostgreSQL a little bit. A while ago, I developed a GIS-type system that displayed interactive maps. The backend I used was PostgreSQL since it had nice support for Geometric data types and functions. Pity we never sold it ... (GIS data is too blasted expensive). I'll look into Interbase when I get the chance. On Thu, 24 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > You should definitely check out PostgresSQL - it's a very robust and > featureful database. I don't know much about Borland's Interbase, > but that's also been freely released and is in the ports collection. > At least nobody could say that one wasn't commercial quality. > > - Jordan > -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 11:11:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E3E37B423 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:11:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4OI9j834864; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in Cc: arun@sharmas.dhs.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques In-Reply-To: <20010524195200.D69030@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010524102900J.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010524195200.D69030@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010524110945I.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:09:45 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 35 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:52:00 +0200 > Do we need to deal with PRs for old releases (which seem to be the > majority out there)? It has happened to me on other software projects Well, we should make sure they're still applicable to the current release, yes. Obviously we don't need to go back and test them retroactively with 2.2.x if that's what it was filed against, but we should at least make sure we're not still suffering from some bug filed over 2 years ago. > and were never closed. Would it be useful for someone to go through > the PRs, and if it's on 2.2.8 or something, mail the original sender > to confirm whether this is still an issue? That'd be another way of going about it, yes. Usually the reviewer simply tests to see if the bug is still present in current releases, but if you want to make the submitter do the legwork, that's fine too and often the only way of doing it when the problem involves some specific and unique bit of hardware. > The other thing is to weed out duplicate PRs -- different reports > describing essentially the same problem. I have seen this in FreeBSD > as well as other projects. That is always a valuable service, yes! In either case, if you're not a committer but still want to communicate summary information about duplicate/outdated PRs on a periodic basis to developers@freebsd.org, that would be a very useful service. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 11:13:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A29737B5AF for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:13:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1101"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3Y11158JY0137KW@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:13:29 EDT Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:20:15 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B0D50DF.D897BCEF@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> <3B0D3203.8A462906@pitt.edu> <20010524185937.A69030@lpt.ens.fr> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Well, you can modify it and distribute it, just talk with the author first. ... > > > Don't tell me he also invented freedom! I like free beer, and in this > > case it comes with source code. > > Does it? Which one? (assuming, by source code, you mean the detailed > recipe and method which lets you brew it yourself) > He he...I was referring the GNU explanation of free software. The recipe for Colombian beer is free...however if you try to sell it with the brand name you'll surely go to jail. Funny, in PA you don't find beer in the supermarkets and if you drink in a street you will get in trouble. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 11:16:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FCF437B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4OIGbR67544 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:16:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA72066 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:17:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:17:09 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: arun@sharmas.dhs.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques Message-ID: <20010524201709.G69030@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010524102900J.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010524195200.D69030@lpt.ens.fr> <20010524110945I.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010524110945I.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@osd.bsdi.com on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 11:09:45AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > That is always a valuable service, yes! > > In either case, if you're not a committer but still want to > communicate summary information about duplicate/outdated PRs on a > periodic basis to developers@freebsd.org, that would be a very > useful service. That simple? OK, I'll get started :) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 11:34: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF0537B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:34:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4OI7L127266; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:07:21 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:01:55 +0200 To: Chris Fuhrman From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Oracle DB Alternatives? (WAAAAAAY Off-topic) Cc: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:05 PM -0400 5/24/01, Chris Fuhrman wrote: > I don't have any personal experience with Sybase although we're open to > just about anything (except MySQL or anything that only runs on Microsoft > Operating Systems). > > What are some of the pros and cons related to Sybase? I'm not a database guy, so I don't think that I am qualified to answer this question. I can say that the entire AOL mail system is built around storing messages in a huge distributed Sybase database (last I knew, it was spread across 128 SGI Challenge L and XL primary database servers, each with a dedicated backup server), and I'm sure that licensing was a major issue behind this decision. I'm sure AOL has replaced the Challenge servers with something else by now (O2000?), but at the time they were the biggest you could get, and I'm sure that Oracle licensing costs would have literally been on the scale of the entire budget for NASA. I know that my previous employer never really considered Oracle at all, primarily for issues relating to licensing costs. Any time we needed a "real" SQL server (i.e., something that MySQL or PostgreSQL couldn't handle), Sybase was what we used. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 11:35:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB9037B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:35:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4OIZdR68587 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:35:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA72662 ; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:36:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:36:11 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010524203611.I69030@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from davids@webmaster.com on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 11:27:11AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz said on May 24, 2001 at 11:27:11: > > Yes, this means that derivitive or modified works are not permitted > > without the author's prior consent. > > > > That means, of course, that IPFilter is not free (or even open source) > > software. > > It also means that if IPFilter contains any code specifically contributed > to IPFilter but not written by Darren Reed, then even Darren Reed can't > distribute modified versions. Interesting interpretation. If so, then the program is frozen for ever? But it depends who the copyright holder is. If the contributor turned over copyright to Reed (for small patches I think that's done implicitly), then I imagine what Reed says holds. The mail linked to in the lwn.net page says the program is copyrighted by him (and so does the version in the current FreeBSD source, but it doesn't include the additional lines above). - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 11:39:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-39.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD1E37B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 977C466B5F; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:39:22 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Windows brings us something we don't have..." Message-ID: <20010524113922.B31551@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qlTNgmc+xy1dBmNv" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 06:15:39PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --qlTNgmc+xy1dBmNv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 06:15:39PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: >=20 > This is a quote from a zdnet article on organizations adopting Windows 20= 00 > and XP. Is there anything we can learn from this? What could we add to > FreeBSD that could fill this 'gap,' if there truly is one? >=20 >=20 > For the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (news - web sites), deeply > mired in its first installation of Windows 2000 on > a campus that has spent decades as a Unix (news - web sites)-only > environment, it's simply a matter of first things first. > "There are people on campus who aren't too keen on Windows at all, but as > we work with them, they are beginning to see > that Windows brings us something we don't have," says Danilo Almeida, a > systems programmer in MIT's information > systems department. And what would that be, hmm? Massive funding injections from the William H. Gates III Foundation? Boring.. Kris --qlTNgmc+xy1dBmNv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7DVVaWry0BWjoQKURAmToAJ9d2XGdKKPEVjw5TtxQoalIXRFCSgCg2XJW wpYfxEga+gltwWCqnku2Pso= =mmgT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qlTNgmc+xy1dBmNv-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 12:39: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF5E637B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 1530wq-0003nl-00; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:39:04 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4OJd3T98175; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:39:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:39:03 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Windows brings us something we don't have..." Message-ID: <20010524203903.A98099@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010524113922.B31551@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010524113922.B31551@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 11:39:22AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > that Windows brings us something we don't have," says Danilo Almeida, a | > systems programmer in MIT's information | > systems department. | | And what would that be, hmm? Massive funding injections from the | William H. Gates III Foundation? | | Boring.. Sad to say, computer science has gone from being about research and learning, to 'show me the money...' jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 13:27:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7043737B423 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:27:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA05705; Thu, 24 May 2001 22:27:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Kris Kirby Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 May 2001 22:27:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby writes: > Wouldn't that be interesting; Budweiser printing the exact process to make > thier beer.... I should hope not. It would probably qualify as biological or psychological warfare. Keep that Bud away from me! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 13:47:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailtmp7.registeredsite.com (mailtmp7.registeredsite.com [216.247.127.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7E137B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:47:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from mail1.registeredsite.com (mail1.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.10]) by mailtmp7.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4OKjNp28544 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 16:45:23 -0400 Received: from mail.threespace.com ([216.247.134.44]) by mail1.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4OKkKS20295 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 16:46:20 -0400 Received: from CX1063714-B.threespace.com [216.247.134.44] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A3184AD000AE; Thu, 24 May 2001 16:46:16 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010524162056.017ae418@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:34:17 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: "Windows brings us something we don't have..." In-Reply-To: <20010524192111.B69030@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What building at MIT is named after Bill Gates? And since when has he given MIT any money at all? MIT is a die-hard UNIX institution; I can't imagine that injecting any version of Windows into the official infrastructure would be easy at all. At 01:21 PM 5/24/2001, Rahul wrote: >Does the article say? What's the URL? MIT has a building named after >Gates, IIRC, and huge funding from him, so I'm a bit surprised that >the first installation of W2K is as late as this... At 02:39 PM 5/24/2001, Kris wrote: >On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 06:15:39PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > > "There are people on campus who aren't too keen on Windows at all, but as > > we work with them, they are beginning to see > > that Windows brings us something we don't have," says Danilo Almeida, a > > systems programmer in MIT's information > > systems department. > >And what would that be, hmm? Massive funding injections from the >William H. Gates III Foundation? > >Boring.. > >Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 14: 7:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35C1237B423 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4OL6V319225; Thu, 24 May 2001 17:06:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:06:31 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Kris Kennaway Cc: j mckitrick , Subject: Re: "Windows brings us something we don't have..." In-Reply-To: <20010524113922.B31551@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: <20010524170121.F18547-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 06:15:39PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > > > > This is a quote from a zdnet article on organizations adopting Windows 2000 > > and XP. Is there anything we can learn from this? What could we add to > > FreeBSD that could fill this 'gap,' if there truly is one? > > > > > > For the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (news - web sites), deeply > > mired in its first installation of Windows 2000 on > > a campus that has spent decades as a Unix (news - web sites)-only > > environment, it's simply a matter of first things first. > > "There are people on campus who aren't too keen on Windows at all, but as > > we work with them, they are beginning to see > > that Windows brings us something we don't have," says Danilo Almeida, a > > systems programmer in MIT's information > > systems department. > > And what would that be, hmm? Massive funding injections from the > William H. Gates III Foundation? Blue Screens of Death, lost and corrupted data, wasted time waiting for reboots, Back Orifice, NetBus, and hundreds of other security holes, totally stupid defaults set by the installation program,......... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 14:21:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [64.211.219.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52A637B424 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:21:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA69248; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:21:41 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdktGSaa; Thu May 24 14:21:39 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA22615; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:30:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105242130.OAA22615@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:30:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010524152334.K52234@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at May 24, 2001 03:23:34 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What Stallman opposed was the "advertising clause" which said all > advertising materials concerning the software must mention the UCB; No. It said that if you mentioned features or use of the software in your marketing materials, you must give the authors credit. If you do not mention features or use of the software, you need only give credit in the accompanying documentation, in the back, in appendix C, in a 4 point font. The "advertising clause" is _not_ and "advertising clause", so much as it is a "claim credit clause", which prevents you from misrepresenting works of authorship as your own. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 16: 6:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A397437B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 16:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id RAA108032478 Thu, 24 May 2001 17:58:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA23663; Thu, 24 May 2001 16:07:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:07:29 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Chris Fuhrman Cc: colug@stones.wcbe.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oracle DB Alternatives? (WAAAAAAY Off-topic) Message-ID: <20010524160729.A23634@darkstar.gte.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from cfuhrman@tfcci.com on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 10:53:17AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 10:53:17AM -0400, Chris Fuhrman wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Howdy, > > Okay, this is WAAAAAY off-topic for this group but given the technical > expertise here, I'd thought I'd ask anyway. > > The company I work for currently uses Oracle for one of it's platforms. > Right now Oracle is running on relatively inexpensive hardware (Solaris > x86) and for what it does it works. The problem is that we're starting to > reach the performance limit of the db servers. What's the solution? > Upgrade our boxes. > > We would absolutely LOVE to put our db engine on Sun Enterprise-class > servers and we've even got an E450 we could put it on. The main problem > is that Oracle licensing is, hmmm, a bit out of our budget. Like, way out > our budget. Like, who-do-you-think-we-are-friggen-Boeing out of our > budget. > > So we're now faced with the following rather unpleasant scenarios: > > 1) Pay Oracle a boat-load of money for every server we purchase > > 2) Switch Database Engines > > Does anyone have any experience with migrating from Oracle to another > platform? We're presently looking at the following alternatives: > > * Informix > * IBM DB2 > * PostgreSQL (My boss keeps asking me about this) > SAP's open source ADABAS clone? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 16:37:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246FD37B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 16:37:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id SAA11754823 Thu, 24 May 2001 18:32:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA23707; Thu, 24 May 2001 16:38:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:38:38 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010524163838.C23634@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> <3B0D3203.8A462906@pitt.edu> <20010524185937.A69030@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20010524185937.A69030@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 06:59:37PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I figured that this was a large part of why ipfw is around. [RC] On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 06:59:37PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Quoting LWN: > > > > > > That means, of course, that IPFilter is not free (or even open source) > > > software. > > > > > I'm sorry for RMS... but free software is software I don't have to pay > > for. > > Irrelevant. FreeBSD should be modifiable, and modifications should be > distributable. If the author of IPfilter will not allow > modifications, I certainly see it as a problem (and so, according to > that article, do the OpenBSD people) for obvious reasons. > > > Don't tell me he also invented freedom! I like free beer, and in this > > case it comes with source code. > > Does it? Which one? (assuming, by source code, you mean the detailed > recipe and method which lets you brew it yourself) > > - Rahul. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 20: 4:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B84537B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:04:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r27.bfm.org [216.127.220.123]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 22:08:13 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010524220252.00a87690@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:02:52 -0500 To: chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Braindead spider from 198.4.83.49 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I really don't know whom else to ask this. It has nothing to do with FreeBSD. I just figured someone here will know (and since chat is about anything...) Does anyone know who is behind the IP of 198.4.83.49? I cannot ping it. I cannot browse to it. But it appears in my web logs, and, from a Google search, in apparently everyone's web logs. Namely, it spiders the web all the time. It uses a spider named "WFARC". Now, all other spiders have the decency to leave a web address in my log, so I can go and check who is spidering me. Not so with WFARC. The only trail it leaves is the mysterious IP of 198.4.83.49. Now, I normally do not mind spiders. In fact, I welcome them. But not this one. For one, it keeps coming back too often. More importantly, it is brain dead. Take a look at this, for example: 198.4.83.49 - - [23/May/2001:23:55:12 -0400] "GET /protectamerica/info.cgi?information HTTP/1.0" 404 39580 "-" "WFARC" 198.4.83.49 - - [23/May/2001:23:55:15 -0400] "GET /protectamerica/order.cgi?information HTTP/1.0" 404 39580 "-" "WFARC" 198.4.83.49 - - [23/May/2001:23:55:17 -0400] "GET /protectamerica/plans.cgi?information HTTP/1.0" 404 39580 "-" "WFARC" These pages do not exist. Well, not on MY server. The web page where they are listed contains . But the stupid spider does not know what that means. It keeps looking for hundreds of pages that do not exist on my server. And that is driving me crazy. At least if I knew who is sending this nonsense all around the web, so I could email to them and ask them to fix their spider! And if you want to see total incompetence, check this out: 198.4.83.49 - - [23/May/2001:23:55:26 -0400] "GET /registrar/https:/secure.onlineaccess.net/supertransfer/new-transfer.php?ID= 65dedf717554e61dd0a90bb730110260&secID=information HTTP/1.0" 404 39580 "-" "WFARC" It saw . It changed the // to /, and just appended the URL to the directory in which it found the link. This is totally ridiculous. With so much incompetence, I do not understand how it found my web site to start with. But as long as it did, and as long as it is wasting precious cycles, if someone knows who is behind it, PLEASE, PLEASE, let me know. Thanks, Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 20:11:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (smtp-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C3437B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:11:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC4864E7; Thu, 24 May 2001 22:11:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:11:18 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Subject: Re: Braindead spider from 198.4.83.49 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010524220252.00a87690@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 24 May 2001, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: :I really don't know whom else to ask this. It has nothing to do :with FreeBSD. I just figured someone here will know (and since chat :is about anything...) : :Does anyone know who is behind the IP of 198.4.83.49? I cannot :ping it. I cannot browse to it. : The class C netblock it's in belongs to IBM Almaden Research Center. I don't know anything more than that. David -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 20:21:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alive.znep.com (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-500.oz.net [216.39.145.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546C937B42C for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:21:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA11615; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:21:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:21:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Marc Slemko To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Braindead spider from 198.4.83.49 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010524220252.00a87690@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 24 May 2001, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > Does anyone know who is behind the IP of 198.4.83.49? I cannot > ping it. I cannot browse to it. > > But it appears in my web logs, and, from a Google search, in > apparently everyone's web logs. Namely, it spiders the web all > the time. It uses a spider named "WFARC". Now, all other spiders My guess would be it is a crawler associated with: http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/k53/clever.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 21:11: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gc0.generalconcepts.com (24.65.54.138.on.wave.home.com [24.65.54.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB6C37B424; Thu, 24 May 2001 21:11:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jsellens@generalconcepts.com) Received: (from jsellens@localhost) by gc0.generalconcepts.com (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f4P4AlL41933; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:10:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jsellens) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:10:47 -0400 (EDT) From: John Sellens Message-Id: <200105250410.f4P4AlL41933@gc0.generalconcepts.com> To: fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar, nik@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:09:15 -0400 | From: Nik Clayton | | Go to www.steltor.com, and look at their products, which run on Unix | (inc. Linux, but not BSD) and claim to provide the necessary | functionality. FYI - when we were looking at Corporate Time (now steltor) for calendaring last year, the linux client seemed to run fine on FreeBSD. It seemed to be a pretty good product. Cheers John jsellens@generalconcepts.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 21:24: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-39.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AA4E37B423 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 21:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B67FB66B5F; Thu, 24 May 2001 21:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:23:54 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: "Windows brings us something we don't have..." Message-ID: <20010524212354.A40930@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010524192111.B69030@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010524162056.017ae418@mail.threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010524162056.017ae418@mail.threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 04:34:17PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 04:34:17PM -0400, Technical Information wrote: > What building at MIT is named after Bill Gates? And since when has he=20 > given MIT any money at all? MIT is a die-hard UNIX institution; I can't= =20 > imagine that injecting any version of Windows into the official=20 > infrastructure would be easy at all. The point is that the original quote was unsupported, and therefore meaningless unless put in some kind of context. Frankly, I think it's a waste of time discussing this kind of thing..I wouldn't mind if Jonathan stopped posting every unsupported assertion about Windows being good that he comes across :-) Kris > At 01:21 PM 5/24/2001, Rahul wrote: > >Does the article say? What's the URL? MIT has a building named after > >Gates, IIRC, and huge funding from him, so I'm a bit surprised that > >the first installation of W2K is as late as this... >=20 >=20 > At 02:39 PM 5/24/2001, Kris wrote: > >On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 06:15:39PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > > > "There are people on campus who aren't too keen on Windows at all, b= ut as > > > we work with them, they are beginning to see > > > that Windows brings us something we don't have," says Danilo Almeida= , a > > > systems programmer in MIT's information > > > systems department. > > > >And what would that be, hmm? Massive funding injections from the > >William H. Gates III Foundation? > > > >Boring.. > > > >Kris >=20 >=20 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7Dd5ZWry0BWjoQKURAqmQAKDwM58hMOH21PMl2ptEjW8+kq6mIQCeIuip S8ja04KkdUu7S1wq8GtcJ+0= =EZbx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bg08WKrSYDhXBjb5-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 21:33: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0FD137B422 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 21:32:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b089.otenet.gr [195.167.121.217]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4P4WpA06259; Fri, 25 May 2001 07:32:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4P4WtU04193; Fri, 25 May 2001 07:32:55 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 07:32:54 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: "Windows brings us something we don't have..." Message-ID: <20010525073254.B3972@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010524192111.B69030@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010524162056.017ae418@mail.threespace.com> <20010524212354.A40930@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="opJtzjQTFsWo+cga" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010524212354.A40930@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:23:54PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:23:54PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > I wouldn't mind if Jonathan stopped posting every unsupported > assertion about Windows being good that he comes across :-) At least not without one or more URLs to back it up; very true. --giorgos --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7DeB1zk2rLMllOhwRAj3lAJ475+OPdi5Uwfk6ykQ1cX1MuEvX0ACePQSV bHbkf5OnJz8WG/i04QvKwEU= =ragB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 22:38:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (cpe-66-1-147-119.ca.sprintbbd.net [66.1.147.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26E637B423 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 22:38:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arun@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: from z3 (z3.mirabella.net [192.168.1.2]) by sharmas.dhs.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F4F05E100; Thu, 24 May 2001 21:30:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Arun Sharma" To: "Jordan Hubbard" Cc: Subject: RE: Reiser: BSD cliques Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:28:40 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20010524102900J.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > That puts me at the receiving end :) Given that I have a day time job > > to do that has nothing to do with open source or FreeBSD, it's going > > to be a bit tight, but I hate to let this opportunity go. I'll be glad > > to help out. > > OK, can you give me a list of your open PRs? I'll need it in > making the case to -core. > o [2000/02/22] kern/16928 dynamic sysctl enhancement o [2000/03/05] gnu/17214 obrien gdb doesn't honor auto-solib-add o [2000/05/12] kern/18524 The current kernel doesn't keep stats on a per cpu basis o [2001/05/20] bin/27489 patch for feature sysconf(_SC_NPROCESSORS_CONF) http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi?category=&severity=&priority=&class=&state=&sort=none&text=&responsible=&multitext=& originator=arun > > However, I still think there may be lots of people who might not be > > interested in becoming commiters, but might be able to make useful > > contributions to FreeBSD. I think more needs to be done to make it > > easy for such people to help FreeBSD. Watch out for upcoming patches > > to send-pr's web UI! > > Well, making it easier to format and send PRs will certainly be a > help, but without committers dedicated to reviewing and close those > PRs, we'll just get deeper backlogged. That's the real shortage > around here. :( I'm curious about what kind of an interface developers use to look at these PRs. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 24 23:48:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9160337B632 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 23:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4P6mXR05385 ; Fri, 25 May 2001 08:48:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id IAA95240 ; Fri, 25 May 2001 08:49:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:49:05 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010525084905.A94861@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010524152334.K52234@lpt.ens.fr> <200105242130.OAA22615@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105242130.OAA22615@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:30:02PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 24, 2001 at 21:30:02: > > What Stallman opposed was the "advertising clause" which said all > > advertising materials concerning the software must mention the UCB; > > No. > > It said that if you mentioned features or use of the software > in your marketing materials, you must give the authors credit. Well, if you read it as written that's not what it says. I cut-and-pasted from the FreeBSD file in my earlier mail. It says specifically that the UCB must be given credit in all "advertising materials" (the exact words) mentioning features and use of the software (and what advertising material does not?) Of course, other authors could, and do, modify it to ask credit for themselves; this was Stallman's problem -- such a clause, if followed strictly for NetBSD (and presumably FreeBSD too), would require a full page of advertisement. If by "the software", you mean specifically that portion of FreeBSD which the author wrote -- like Darren Reed for IPFilter -- maybe you're saying that if he insisted on an advertising clause, you'd need to mention him only when you mention IPFilter. What he wrote is not an advertising clause, but even if he had one, I doubt FreeBSD would mention his name every time they mentioned the firewalling capabilities of the system. It seems to me that the clause would be violated more often than observed, except in the specific case of mentioning UCB. Of course, you're free to your interpretation because I doubt lawyers will run after you if you don't follow it to the letter. (There is an addendum in the FreeBSD file, of course, which says the clause has been removed.) - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 0: 7:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A74E37B422 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:07:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02567; Fri, 25 May 2001 01:07:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010525005922.04754280@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:00:04 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010524144947.I52234@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010524053451.0443c350@localhost> <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010524053451.0443c350@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:49 AM 5/24/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >This confirms my impression that when you read something, you think it >means whatever you want it to mean. He didn't give consent for >modification, only for redistribution. He said that he was granting permission for "use" in source form. One of the uses of source is to create derivative works. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 0:11:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1CEF37B422 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:11:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4P7BqR07376 ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:11:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id JAA96031 ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:12:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:12:25 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010525091225.C94861@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010524053451.0443c350@localhost> <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010524053451.0443c350@localhost> <20010524144947.I52234@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010525005922.04754280@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010525005922.04754280@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, May 25, 2001 at 01:00:04AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 25, 2001 at 01:00:04: > >This confirms my impression that when you read something, you think it > >means whatever you want it to mean. He didn't give consent for > >modification, only for redistribution. > > He said that he was granting permission for "use" in source form. One > of the uses of source is to create derivative works. Maybe Theo de Raadt will use that argument, if things get nasty. But it's not at all an obvious interpretation, and it's quite clearly not the author's intention. To quote from his mail, http://false.net/ipfilter/2001_05/0332.html There is no change. It's always been that way - from day 0 - so there is no going back to an older version which has a different licence. The licence has only ever granted right to redistribute/use, not modify. The only difference is those two lines make explicit what was only implied before. As it points out, it is explaining what the prior sentence means, not adding any new meaning. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 0:22:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A3537B422 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:22:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4P7M8R08317 ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:22:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id JAA96408 ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:22:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:22:41 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010525092241.D94861@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010524053451.0443c350@localhost> <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010524053451.0443c350@localhost> <20010524144947.I52234@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010525005922.04754280@localhost> <20010525091225.C94861@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010525091225.C94861@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Fri, May 25, 2001 at 09:12:25AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan said on May 25, 2001 at 09:12:25: > Brett Glass said on May 25, 2001 at 01:00:04: > > >This confirms my impression that when you read something, you think it > > >means whatever you want it to mean. He didn't give consent for > > >modification, only for redistribution. > > > > He said that he was granting permission for "use" in source form. One > > of the uses of source is to create derivative works. > > Maybe Theo de Raadt will use that argument, if things get nasty. But > it's not at all an obvious interpretation, and it's quite clearly not > the author's intention. To quote from his mail, And (sorry, I can't resist saying this) -- if you, in particular, respect the author's rights and dislike stealing software, as you constantly claim to do, you should respect the author's clearly stated intentions: not look for loopholes in his exact wording to cheat him of what he wants. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 1:41:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9510837B424 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 01:41:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4P8f6j32473 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:41:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:41:05 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Daemons in threads Message-ID: <20010525184105.H26132@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know of a good quality cross stitch or jacquard or filet pattern for a FreeBSD logo or daemon? The nights are getting chilly and I need to crochet a hacker's shawl. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 2: 0: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA80E37B42C for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 02:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4P902R18071 ; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:00:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA00737 ; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:00:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:00:35 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: "Windows brings us something we don't have..." Message-ID: <20010525110035.H94861@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010524181538.B94699@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010524192111.B69030@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010524162056.017ae418@mail.threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010524162056.017ae418@mail.threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 04:34:17PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information said on May 24, 2001 at 16:34:17: > What building at MIT is named after Bill Gates? And since when has he > given MIT any money at all? MIT is a die-hard UNIX institution; I can't > imagine that injecting any version of Windows into the official > infrastructure would be easy at all. http://www.salon.com/tech/log/1999/04/14/gates_building/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 2:18:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rapier.smartspace.co.za (rapier.smartspace.co.za [66.8.25.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1900C37B422 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 02:18:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rapier.smartspace.co.za) Received: (qmail 57224 invoked by uid 1001); 25 May 2001 09:18:27 -0000 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:18:27 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Arun Sharma Cc: Jordan Hubbard , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques Message-ID: <20010525111827.A55644@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <20010524102900J.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from arun@sharmas.dhs.org on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:28:40PM -0700 Organization: Building Intelligence X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 2001-05-24 (21:28), Arun Sharma wrote: > > Well, making it easier to format and send PRs will certainly be a > > help, but without committers dedicated to reviewing and close those > > PRs, we'll just get deeper backlogged. That's the real shortage > > around here. :( > > I'm curious about what kind of an interface developers use to look at these > PRs. I've found tkgnats to be more than survivable when I've done PR cleanups before. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 2:55:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7E437B422 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 02:55:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA44012; Fri, 25 May 2001 05:55:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 05:55:30 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Braindead spider from 198.4.83.49 Message-ID: <20010525055530.A43963@blackhelicopters.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20010524220252.00a87690@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010524220252.00a87690@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 10:02:52PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 10:02:52PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > I really don't know whom else to ask this. It has nothing to do > with FreeBSD. I just figured someone here will know (and since chat > is about anything...) > > Does anyone know who is behind the IP of 198.4.83.49? I cannot > ping it. I cannot browse to it. Well, see whe it's registered to. blackhelicopters~;whois -h whois.arin.net 198.4.83.49 UUNET Technologies, Inc. (NETBLK-UUNETCBLK) NETBLK-UUNETCBLK4 198.4.0.0 - 198.4.255.255 IBM Almaden Research Center (NET-IBMARCNET) IBMARCNET198.4.83.0 - 198.4.83.255 To single out one record, look it up with "!xxx", where xxx is the handle, shown in parenthesis following the name, which comes first. The ARIN Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Network Information: Networks, ASN's, and related POC's. Please use the whois server at rs.internic.net for DOMAIN related Information and whois.nic.mil for NIPRNET Information. ARIN has delegated to UUNET, who delegated to IB MAlmaden Research Center. Find the contact for that netblock from the name given to the block: blackhelicopters~;whois -h whois.arin.net ibmarcnet IBM Almaden Research Center (NET-IBMARCNET) 650 Harry Road San Jose, CA 95120 US Netname: IBMARCNET Netblock: 198.4.83.0 - 198.4.83.255 Coordinator: Rall, Tony (TR783-ARIN) trall@ALMADEN.IBM.COM 408/927-2667 (FAX) 408/927-4115 Record last updated on 21-Jul-1997. Database last updated on 24-May-2001 22:53:46 EDT. The ARIN Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Network Information: Networks, ASN's, and related POC's. Please use the whois server at rs.internic.net for DOMAIN related Information and whois.nic.mil for NIPRNET Information. blackhelicopters~; Contact the coordinator, and kindly ask him who to bitch at. Have fun. :) ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 3:58:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-25.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E933437B422 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 03:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5AA3166C66; Fri, 25 May 2001 03:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 03:58:56 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Arun Sharma Cc: Jordan Hubbard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques Message-ID: <20010525035856.A1185@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010524102900J.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from arun@sharmas.dhs.org on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:28:40PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 09:28:40PM -0700, Arun Sharma wrote: > I'm curious about what kind of an interface developers use to look at these > PRs. query-pr and more(1), and/or the web interface. Kris --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7DjrvWry0BWjoQKURAjy2AJ0Qsjv/V40mxJP/4g4s6LM58NNTTQCgnDSp lj3qpKOv2ebF3uLDKPR6gUw= =4Wd1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 11:20:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from host213-123-133-64.btopenworld.com (host213-123-133-64.btopenworld.com [213.123.133.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C30337B42C; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominic@host213-123-133-64.btopenworld.com) Received: (from dominic@localhost) by host213-123-133-64.btopenworld.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4PIK6L40763; Fri, 25 May 2001 19:20:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from dominic) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 19:20:01 +0100 From: Dominic Marks To: Mike Silbersack Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: general speed differences between 4.1.1-RELEASE and 4.3-RELEASE Message-ID: <20010525192001.A351@apollo> References: <3B0DF980.EDA844F7@DougBarton.net> <20010525120231.L58983-100000@achilles.silby.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7JfCtLOvnd9MIVvH" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010525120231.L58983-100000@achilles.silby.com>; from silby@silby.com on Fri, May 25, 2001 at 12:10:49PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --7JfCtLOvnd9MIVvH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Fri, May 25, 2001 at 12:10:49PM -0500, Mike Silbersack wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 24 May 2001, Doug Barton wrote: >=20 > And stuck in the middle is a growing number of people who are seeing a > noticeable slowdown with 4.3, and will start telling their friends that > FreeBSD is slow. >=20 > Mike "Silby" Silbersack I'd be slightly more concerned about the safety out of the data from a clean installation. In my opinion its more important to be safe out of the box and leave performance and optimization as a task for a sysadmin that has enough clue to do such things. I don't mean to say that performance is not an issue or not important, this is of course incorrect. Safe by default with speed available to those who care to find out how. I think that the alternative is some what irresponsible. Its not as if 4.3 is actually slower when properly setup, its the same reasoning as not using async mounts on hard discs by default. Just my thoughts, Have a nice day. [ I've cc'ed -chat in the hope of moving the conversation onto that list as requested. If anyone responds please drop -hackers. Thanks ] --=20 Dominic Marks --7JfCtLOvnd9MIVvH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7DqJQ5FwHMNbbKFkRAqgdAJsFuZCX1k+Ftm8bot4eV9Sb0fs54ACfQNUk FS+p2WzR/EcDbBlJFuNp39A= =NyXg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7JfCtLOvnd9MIVvH-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 11:34: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD6A37B423 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:34:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1784"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3ZG0M03PA013P3T@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 25 May 2001 14:33:03 EDT Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:39:54 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: BSD license getting more attention lately. To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B0EA6FA.6B80F5BB@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010524122010.C52234@lpt.ens.fr> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I definitely think there is something going on out there...envy in the Linux camp perhaps?? Alan Cox talking about binary modules in Linux:* "... If you are releasing modules with source under terms that are at least as free as the GPL (eg BSD without advertising clause) then nobody has any cares. We probably wouldnt merge it with the mainstream kernel due to the lack of patent trap protection in the BSD license but I suspect you dont want that anyway." *taken from the Linux Kernel Traffic This is becoming funny. In my interpretation, Linux (excuse the redundancy) kernel developers are now discouraging the BSD license. Now they are even spreading FUD in terms of that "lack of patent trap protection". I wonder how their modified GPL protects them from patents, not to mention the one in RTlinux. I think there's something deeper here...they are starting to feel pressure from somewhere...maybe Microsoft's comments?? maybe they are loosing industry interest. ah well; maybe we should let them think whatever they want :). Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 11:34:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [64.211.219.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B24C537B422 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:34:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00459; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:34:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAANaay0a; Fri May 25 11:34:13 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA12049; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:42:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105251842.LAA12049@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:42:39 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010525005922.04754280@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at May 25, 2001 01:00:04 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >This confirms my impression that when you read something, you think it > >means whatever you want it to mean. He didn't give consent for > >modification, only for redistribution. > > He said that he was granting permission for "use" in source form. One > of the uses of source is to create derivative works. Yes. This is where most GPL stuff falls apart, since the GPL effectively redefines "use" to be "utilize". The UCB license doesn't have all the long-winded clauses which do that: when the UCB license says "use", it meand "use". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 11:35:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [64.211.219.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A4137B422 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA69154; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:35:25 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpd.Twtia; Fri May 25 11:35:24 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA12009; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:41:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105251841.LAA12009@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:41:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010525084905.A94861@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at May 25, 2001 08:49:05 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > What Stallman opposed was the "advertising clause" which said all > > > advertising materials concerning the software must mention the UCB; > > > > No. > > > > It said that if you mentioned features or use of the software > > in your marketing materials, you must give the authors credit. > > Well, if you read it as written that's not what it says. I > cut-and-pasted from the FreeBSD file in my earlier mail. It says > specifically that the UCB must be given credit in all "advertising > materials" (the exact words) mentioning features and use of the > software (and what advertising material does not?) If you can point me to some advertising materials which state: "Now featuring BSD TCP/IP Networking!" I'll be obliged. Also if you can point at one "InterJet" or "IBM Web Connections" ad which mentions features specific to, or use of, FreeBSD. Same goes for FreeGate, F5, Encanto, ClickArray, CacheFlow, Intel InBusiness, etc., etc.. Thanks. > Of course, you're free to your interpretation because I doubt lawyers > will run after you if you don't follow it to the letter. (There is an > addendum in the FreeBSD file, of course, which says the clause has > been removed.) IBM's lawyers have my interpretation; I'm pretty sure that IBM's lawyers know what is and isn't true, from a legal standpoint, as well as which interpretations are or aren't legally defensible. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 14:27:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maile.telia.com (maile.telia.com [194.22.190.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D0E37B424 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 14:27:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from d1o74.telia.com (d1o74.telia.com [62.20.224.241]) by maile.telia.com (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4PLRfW00302 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 23:27:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from molly.telia.com (t5o74p84.telia.com [212.181.216.84]) by d1o74.telia.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26401 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 23:27:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:27:56 +0000 (/etc/localtime) From: Fredrik Olausson X-Sender: fredrik@molly.telia.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: The desktop apathy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, Over the past few weeks there's been an increased amount of reporting in various on- and off-line media about the failure of open-source OS:es on the desktop. Eversince Ximian closed down, I feel it has accellerated into an apathy amongst the open-source community. Now, everywhere I look I see announcments that "company X is moving from the desktop to the server market" (MandrakeSoft) "OS Y is too technically oriented, and is not a viable option for desktop use" (Dell on Linux). This attitude surprises me. No open-source operating system has every had a market share on the desktop. However, there has always been a drive in the community to improve the viability of the OS on the desktop, just look at the KDE and Gnome project that have been maturing by leaps and bounds over the past few years (I still prefer FVWM tho ;) Now, I feel that this optimism has been transformed to apathy. If I am correct, it is indeed unfortunate and un-called for, there is still some miles to walk before we have 100% optimal gui:s and environments, but did anyone really think that we would have average home and office users sitting at *BSD or Linux computers so soon? What do you all think? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 15:55:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F4237B423 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 15:55:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4PMtNY83523; Fri, 25 May 2001 22:55:23 GMT Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:55:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? In-Reply-To: <200105251842.LAA12049@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 25 May 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > This is where most GPL stuff falls apart, since the GPL > effectively redefines "use" to be "utilize". The UCB > license doesn't have all the long-winded clauses which > do that: when the UCB license says "use", it meand "use". Correct me if I am wrong, but the UCB license was written by a lawyer. Is this true of the GPL? ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 18:33: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06A3737B422 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:33:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4Q1Vv842690; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:31:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: fredrik@speechcraft.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010525183157B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:31:57 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 5 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ever heard of a little company called Apple? They're generating a lot of BSD + Desktop buzz right now and from where I'm sitting, at least, it's quite audible. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 18:39:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA51D37B422 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:39:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.mybox.zip ([207.214.149.75]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GDX00ADO5YA1A@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zippy.mybox.zip (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 60589189A; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:39:32 -0700 From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-reply-to: ; from fredrik@speechcraft.com on Fri, May 25, 2001 at 11:27:56PM +0000 To: Fredrik Olausson Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010525183932.B742@zippy.mybox.zip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 25, 2001 at 11:27:56PM +0000, Fredrik Olausson wrote: > What do you all think? Ximian had a rediculous business model. Of course they went under. Does that mean that X is bad for the desktop? Nahh. In fact, I've found that my biggest wish for KDE at this point is more speed, less overhead, etc. Save a word processor (which WP/X does pretty well), I've found pretty much everything I need in KDE and a handful of Gtk+ apps. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 19:20: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8A137B423 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 19:19:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4493018D6; Thu, 24 May 2001 19:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BCCB18D5 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 19:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:44:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <20010525183157B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Ever heard of a little company called Apple? They're generating a lot > of BSD + Desktop buzz right now and from where I'm sitting, at least, > it's quite audible. :-) Bah... they'll never get anywhere.... *grin* Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://www.shatteredcrystal.net/hardware ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 20:26:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from madcap.apk.net (madcap.apk.net [207.54.158.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3A037B423 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 20:26:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ipswitch@apk.net) X-IP-Test: 207.54.148.235 Received: from localhost (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by madcap.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f4Q3PtK22466 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 23:25:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105260325.f4Q3PtK22466@madcap.apk.net> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:25:51 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1233767835-3 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.388) From: Stuart Krivis To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v388) In-Reply-To: <20010524212354.A40930@xor.obsecurity.org> Subject: Re: "Windows brings us something we don't have..." Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --Apple-Mail-1233767835-3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii On Friday, May 25, 2001, at 12:23 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 04:34:17PM -0400, Technical Information wrote: >> What building at MIT is named after Bill Gates? And since when has he >> given MIT any money at all? MIT is a die-hard UNIX institution; I >> can't >> imagine that injecting any version of Windows into the official >> infrastructure would be easy at all. > > The point is that the original quote was unsupported, and therefore > meaningless unless put in some kind of context. Frankly, I think it's > a waste of time discussing this kind of thing..I wouldn't mind if > Jonathan stopped posting every unsupported assertion about Windows > being good that he comes across :-) Oh, he's one of those? Windows is good for very small values of good. :-) It's no longer a joke. Win 2K is a vast improvement over Win 3.1 and Win 9x. However, the NT 3.1 -> 3.5x -> 4 -> Win 2K progression keeps going in the wrong direction. They keep stuffing more and more into kernel space, and the things they put in are the least stable parts of the OS. MS made a big deal out of the "improved" video performance gained by moving graphics into the kernel. Then they tell you that you need to run it in VGA mode if you want it to be stable. --Apple-Mail-1233767835-3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=us-ascii On Friday, May 25, 2001, at 12:23 AM, Kris Kennaway wrote: On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 04:34:17PM -0400, Technical Information wrote: What building at MIT is named after Bill Gates? And since when has he given MIT any money at all? MIT is a die-hard UNIX institution; I can't imagine that injecting any version of Windows into the official infrastructure would be easy at all. The point is that the original quote was unsupported, and therefore meaningless unless put in some kind of context. Frankly, I think it's a waste of time discussing this kind of thing..I wouldn't mind if Jonathan stopped posting every unsupported assertion about Windows being good that he comes across :-) Oh, he's one of those? 0000,0000,DEB7 Windows is good for very small values of good. :-) It's no longer a joke. Win 2K is a vast improvement over Win 3.1 and Win 9x. However, the NT 3.1 -> 3.5x -> 4 -> Win 2K progression keeps going in the wrong direction. They keep stuffing more and more into kernel space, and the things they put in are the least stable parts of the OS. MS made a big deal out of the "improved" video performance gained by moving graphics into the kernel. Then they tell you that you need to run it in VGA mode if you want it to be stable. --Apple-Mail-1233767835-3-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 21: 1:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailtmp6.registeredsite.com (mailtmp6.registeredsite.com [216.247.127.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91E8937B422 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 21:01:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from mail2.registeredsite.com (mail2.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.11]) by mailtmp6.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4Q42A001515 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 00:02:10 -0400 Received: from mail.threespace.com (mail.threespace.com [216.247.134.44]) by mail2.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4Q40Kc27912 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 00:00:20 -0400 Received: from CX1063714-B.threespace.com [216.247.134.44] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id AA4D582300DA; Sat, 26 May 2001 00:00:16 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010525235249.038f8dc0@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 00:00:10 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sometimes I don't really see the point of this. Maybe my experience with Windows has been exceptional, but it works well enough on the desktop. The broad, easy availability of applications and the hardware compatibility can't be beat. Throw in a good X Server, and even the UNIX applications are just a telnet away. But did anyone out there really there start dabbling with UNIX (and FreeBSD in particular) because he needed a better desktop? If so, I'd be surprised to hear about it. Too often, the quest for the desktop seems to be motivated by "stickin' it to Microsoft where it hurts" and "they got it, so we need to take it from 'em." And with the .NET initiative, even Microsoft has conceded that the desktop is not where the revenue/control of the future lies. FreeBSD certainly has its strengths, but so does Windows. I don't really see why they can't co-exist. They do on my desktop, and I'm pretty pleased with the end result. --Chip Morton At 07:27 PM 5/25/2001, you wrote: >Hi all, > >Over the past few weeks there's been an increased amount of reporting in >various on- and off-line media about the failure of open-source OS:es on >the desktop. Eversince Ximian closed down, I feel it has accellerated into >an apathy amongst the open-source community. Now, everywhere I look I see >announcments that "company X is moving from the desktop to the server >market" (MandrakeSoft) "OS Y is too technically oriented, and is not a >viable option for desktop use" (Dell on Linux). > >This attitude surprises me. > >No open-source operating system has every had a market share >on the desktop. However, there has always been a drive in the community to >improve the viability of the OS on the desktop, just look at the KDE and >Gnome project that have been maturing by leaps and bounds over the past >few years (I still prefer FVWM tho ;) Now, I feel that this optimism has >been transformed to apathy. If I am correct, it is indeed unfortunate and >un-called for, there is still some miles to walk before we have 100% >optimal gui:s and environments, but did anyone really think that we would >have average home and office users sitting at *BSD or Linux computers so >soon? > >What do you all think? > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 21:35:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (usr.srcsys.org [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C91837B423 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 21:35:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 11136 invoked by uid 1000); 26 May 2001 04:32:42 -0000 Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 00:32:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010525235249.038f8dc0@mail.threespace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Windows is good, but I learned how to use a computer on Unix, and my workstations are usually SGI's running IRIX or pc's running FreeBSD. Not because it's better than windows, but because it's where I am comfortable (though I use Windows quite a lot). People who think they are `sticking it to MS' are mistaken, anyway. The people who pirate thousands of copies of Windows are, not the people using alternatives. -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, & xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d-- s+:++ a--- C+++ UB++++ P+++ L- E---- W++ N+ o-- K- w++ O M+ V PS+ PE- Y+ PGP++ t++ 5-- X+ R tv- b++ DI+ D--- G e* h! r% z+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ On Sat, 26 May 2001, Technical Information wrote: > Sometimes I don't really see the point of this. Maybe my experience with > Windows has been exceptional, but it works well enough on the desktop. The > broad, easy availability of applications and the hardware compatibility > can't be beat. Throw in a good X Server, and even the UNIX applications > are just a telnet away. > > But did anyone out there really there start dabbling with UNIX (and FreeBSD > in particular) because he needed a better desktop? If so, I'd be surprised > to hear about it. Too often, the quest for the desktop seems to be > motivated by "stickin' it to Microsoft where it hurts" and "they got it, so > we need to take it from 'em." And with the .NET initiative, even Microsoft > has conceded that the desktop is not where the revenue/control of the > future lies. > > FreeBSD certainly has its strengths, but so does Windows. I don't really > see why they can't co-exist. They do on my desktop, and I'm pretty pleased > with the end result. > > --Chip Morton > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 25 21:48:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD7937B424 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 21:48:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4Q4miv17281; Sat, 26 May 2001 00:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 00:48:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Subject: Re: BSD license getting more attention lately. In-Reply-To: <3B0EA6FA.6B80F5BB@pitt.edu> Message-ID: <20010525233928.Q13035-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If you are releasing modules with source under terms that are at least > as free as the GPL (eg BSD without advertising clause) then nobody has > any cares. This seems to mean more or less "the new BSD license is fine with us." > I wonder how their modified GPL protects them from patents, Not at all, perhaps? > not to mention the one in RTlinux. Please explicate. > I think there's something deeper here...they are starting to feel > pressure from somewhere...maybe Microsoft's comments?? maybe they are > [losing] industry interest. Wouldn't it be terrible to have Microsoft VPs breaking out in oral diarrhea over FreeBSD? It'd be almost as bad having them hire the Rolling Stones to sing on TV about how much FreeBSD sucks (maybe based on "Suck On The Jugular"): Been keeping cool Been lying low Been running smooth No longer slow I've seen the Microsoft way My disk is clean FreeBSD's Off my machine All get together and feel alright All get together and rock all night All get together and feel alright Okay Get ready For sure FreeBSD Sucks on the jugular BTW the PPP code in Linux is under a BSD license, and one of its configuration scripts was contributed by someone at microsoft.com. :) -- Trevor Johnson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 1:22: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D99337B422 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 01:22:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4Q8M1R23316 ; Sat, 26 May 2001 10:22:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA51527 ; Sat, 26 May 2001 10:22:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 10:22:34 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010526102234.A51269@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010525084905.A94861@lpt.ens.fr> <200105251841.LAA12009@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105251841.LAA12009@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, May 25, 2001 at 06:41:02PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 25, 2001 at 18:41:02: > > > > What Stallman opposed was the "advertising clause" which said all > > > > advertising materials concerning the software must mention the UCB; > > > > > > No. > > > > > > It said that if you mentioned features or use of the software > > > in your marketing materials, you must give the authors credit. > > > > Well, if you read it as written that's not what it says. I > > cut-and-pasted from the FreeBSD file in my earlier mail. It says > > specifically that the UCB must be given credit in all "advertising > > materials" (the exact words) mentioning features and use of the > > software (and what advertising material does not?) > > If you can point me to some advertising materials which > state: > > "Now featuring BSD TCP/IP Networking!" They do say "featuring networking" -- if it was BSD TCP/IP networking, that's what it is, regardless of whether they say it or not. > I'll be obliged. Also if you can point at one "InterJet" or > "IBM Web Connections" ad which mentions features specific to, > or use of, FreeBSD. I'm not familiar with these. And how about Apple Mac OS X? They may not always mention BSD, but they mention the software and its features, which are BSD, whether they call it that or not. Or are you saying it's ok to use the software, and advertise its use and features, and not mention UCB, as long as you don't acknowledge that it's BSD code you're using either? If so, how does that stop anyone stealing credit for the code? -Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 1:49:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C683637B423 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 01:49:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id B267566B00E; Sat, 26 May 2001 02:40:32 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 02:40:32 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20010526024032.A37341@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20010525205530N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010525205530N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@osd.bsdi.com on Fri, May 25, 2001 at 08:55:30PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 25, 2001 at 08:55:30PM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > One might also be forgiven at this point for asking why checkbox and > radio menus behave in so finicky a fashion as to require all those > prominent notices posted everywhere. Clearly if you were the first to > run across it, warning signs wouldn't be posted in quite so many > places. > > The answer is that libdialog, the library on which sysinstall depends > for these menus, is genuinely evil. It is the unloved, satanic > bastard child of multiple parents and torturing users like yourself > constitutes the only joy in life it has left. Its source files are > all chmod'd 0666 and dire README files warn against trespass by > neophyte programmers. It is the 7th gate of Hell. It makes the baby > Jesus cry. Were libdialog given anthropomorphic representation, it > would be promptly burnt at the stake and its ashes scattered in the > desert, to be then doused with holy water from altitude by > fire-fighting aircraft. Then why use libdialog?? I am going to have a look at it just to see if its that bad. Wish me luck?? Sincerly, Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 2:53:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc89225.stofanet.dk (pc89225.stofanet.dk [212.10.22.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A85F837B422 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 02:53:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from morten@hotpost.dk) Received: (qmail 6065 invoked by uid 1000); 26 May 2001 09:53:23 -0000 From: "Morten Liebach" Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:53:23 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010526115322.D4419@hotpost.dk> References: <20010525183932.B742@zippy.mybox.zip> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010525183932.B742@zippy.mybox.zip>; from jazepeda@pacbell.net on Fri, May 25, 2001 at 06:39:32PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25, maj, 2001 at 06:39:32 -0700, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Fri, May 25, 2001 at 11:27:56PM +0000, Fredrik Olausson wrote: > > > What do you all think? > > Ximian had a rediculous business model. Of course they went under. Uhm, am I all wrong or are everybody talking about Ximian meaning Eazel? Eazel went under a while ago, look at http://www.eazel.com/ Ximian looks fine, http://www.ximian.com/ -- Morten Liebach ; PGP key: http://home1.stofanet.dk/liebach/pubkey.asc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 3: 8:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maild.telia.com (maild.telia.com [194.22.190.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88FA937B423 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 03:08:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from d1o74.telia.com (d1o74.telia.com [62.20.224.241]) by maild.telia.com (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4QA8F100957 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 12:08:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from molly.telia.com (t5o74p30.telia.com [212.181.216.30]) by d1o74.telia.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA05779 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 12:08:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:08:32 +0000 (/etc/localtime) From: Fredrik Olausson X-Sender: fredrik@molly.telia.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <20010525183157B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, that name does sound familiar ;) I have high hopes for Apple in this endeavour, with a bit of luck it will change the stamp on Unix as being for systems administrators and developers only. However, Apple isn't really a part of the open-source community, and it is the attitude in the community that I'm concerned about. There is a general atmosphere of resignation (call it "consolidation" if you will). I might be wrong, I certainly hope I am, but if I'm right about this, it is certainly a problem. It would be the first time the community lets go of a market segment, and once it has been done for one segment, it is very easy to do it in another. As for "world domination", as long as Microsoft dominates the desktop, they have a very good weapon for dominating the server market as well. What if Microsoft introduces a really kick-ass, proprietary, extension to Explorer that only works together with an IIS server? What about this illustrious "dot NET initiative"? It is true that the server market is the most important one, but the desktop an server segments affect one another to a great extent. We NEED the desktop! -Fredrik On Fri, 25 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Ever heard of a little company called Apple? They're generating a lot > of BSD + Desktop buzz right now and from where I'm sitting, at least, > it's quite audible. :-) > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 3:57: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 59F0837B423 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 03:56:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 50144 invoked by uid 100); 26 May 2001 10:56:57 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15119.35832.955072.175720@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 05:56:56 -0500 To: Alex Zepeda Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <20010525183932.B742@zippy.mybox.zip> References: <20010525183932.B742@zippy.mybox.zip> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alex Zepeda types: > Does that mean that X is bad for the desktop? Nahh. In fact, I've found > that my biggest wish for KDE at this point is more speed, less overhead, > etc. Save a word processor (which WP/X does pretty well), I've found > pretty much everything I need in KDE and a handful of Gtk+ apps. Can you provide a pointer to WP/X? And, if you haven't read it, you might want to look at Thanx, http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 3:57: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 20B1A37B422 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 03:57:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 51078 invoked by uid 100); 26 May 2001 10:57:04 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15119.35840.463078.163832@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 05:57:04 -0500 To: Fredrik Olausson Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: References: <20010525183932.B742@zippy.mybox.zip> <20010525183157B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Fredrik Olausson types: > As for "world domination", as long as Microsoft dominates the desktop, > they > have a very good weapon for dominating the server market as well. What if > Microsoft introduces a really kick-ass, proprietary, extension to Explorer > that only works together with an IIS server? What about this illustrious > "dot NET initiative"? It is true that the server market is the most > important one, but the desktop an server segments affect one another to a > great extent. We NEED the desktop! With Windows dominating the desktop, there's a real economic incentive to put Windows on the server - it's a smaller skill set to pay for to administer the systems. I've had a number of clients try Windows NT on the server, fail to get it working well enough to use, and then give up and go back to Unix. So the real question is, what if MicroSoft simply introduces a version of Windows that's stable enough to use? Since their practice is to keep trying until they get it right, and they have the resources to do it wrong many times, it's bound to happen. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 6:46: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from madcap.apk.net (madcap.apk.net [207.54.158.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FF837B422 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 06:45:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ipswitch@apk.net) X-IP-Test: 207.54.148.235 Received: from localhost (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by madcap.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f4QDjsK17241 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 09:45:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105261345.f4QDjsK17241@madcap.apk.net> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 09:45:51 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-503264796-1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.388) From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v388) In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: war of disinformation Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --Apple-Mail-503264796-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii On Monday, May 21, 2001, at 09:11 AM, Kris Kirby wrote: > On Mon, 21 May 2001, j mckitrick wrote: >> | *Sigh*. If only half the companies out there had IBM debugging >> department. >> >> Hmmm, what do you mean by this? > > IBM's debugging department. Damn NyQuil has kicked in already. > > I meant that IBM actually tested thier software, as opposed to the > "let's > get it out the door before *we* spot another problem" policy that most > commercial outlets seem to be operating under. I used OS/2 for a long time, and got used to Fixpacks that you didn't apply unless you had one of the problems they addressed, and that also didn't introduce _new_ bugs. :-) The recent TPC results with DB2 on Linux are also pretty impressive. I'm glad to see that people are finding out that free unix is not just a toy or a small-scale server. (ftp.cdrom.com has shown what FreeBSD can do, but people seem to shrug it off.) --Apple-Mail-503264796-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=us-ascii On Monday, May 21, 2001, at 09:11 AM, Kris Kirby wrote: On Mon, 21 May 2001, j mckitrick wrote: | *Sigh*. If only half the companies out there had IBM debugging department. Hmmm, what do you mean by this? IBM's debugging department. Damn NyQuil has kicked in already. I meant that IBM actually tested thier software, as opposed to the "let's get it out the door before *we* spot another problem" policy that most commercial outlets seem to be operating under. 0000,0000,DEB7 I used OS/2 for a long time, and got used to Fixpacks that you didn't apply unless you had one of the problems they addressed, and that also didn't introduce _new_ bugs. :-) The recent TPC results with DB2 on Linux are also pretty impressive. I'm glad to see that people are finding out that free unix is not just a toy or a small-scale server. (ftp.cdrom.com has shown what FreeBSD can do, but people seem to shrug it off.) --Apple-Mail-503264796-1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 10:43:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B1437B423 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 10:43:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4QHcGp68708; Sat, 26 May 2001 18:38:16 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 18:38:16 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Daemons in threads Message-ID: <20010526183816.A67507@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20010525184105.H26132@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010525184105.H26132@welearn.com.au>; from sue@welearn.com.au on Fri, May 25, 2001 at 06:41:05PM +1000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 25, 2001 at 06:41:05PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > Does anyone know of a good quality cross stitch or jacquard or filet > pattern for a FreeBSD logo or daemon? The nights are getting chilly > and I need to crochet a hacker's shawl. No, and shouldn't you have posted this to -questions :-) In all seriousness, try asking on DaemonNews. You'll probably get a wider audience. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjsP6ggACgkQk6gHZCw343WvQwCfSyP/pyWHasImnF0A2WCedi7A AZoAn3zksQPFCbbewdcOSxP7y+5M5F2X =B2lx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 11: 3:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C64F337B43C for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 11:03:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4QHuBA68825; Sat, 26 May 2001 18:56:11 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 18:56:11 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Arun Sharma , Jordan Hubbard , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Reiser: BSD cliques Message-ID: <20010526185611.B67507@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20010524102900J.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010525111827.A55644@rapier.smartspace.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oC1+HKm2/end4ao3" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010525111827.A55644@rapier.smartspace.co.za>; from nbm@mithrandr.moria.org on Fri, May 25, 2001 at 11:18:27AM +0200 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --oC1+HKm2/end4ao3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 25, 2001 at 11:18:27AM +0200, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > On Thu 2001-05-24 (21:28), Arun Sharma wrote: > > > Well, making it easier to format and send PRs will certainly be a > > > help, but without committers dedicated to reviewing and close those > > > PRs, we'll just get deeper backlogged. That's the real shortage > > > around here. :( > >=20 > > I'm curious about what kind of an interface developers use to look at t= hese > > PRs. >=20 > I've found tkgnats to be more than survivable when I've done PR cleanups > before. A step by step guide to maintaining a local copy of the GNATS DB can be found at: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/articles/committers-guide/g= nats.html N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --oC1+HKm2/end4ao3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjsP7joACgkQk6gHZCw343W2GQCdE+zqmmQXTdQVh/8+Y6j8bZGA eLoAnibM0m347iQ+xVSo1Os4HxeZ/6cF =L+t6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oC1+HKm2/end4ao3-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 11:13:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EF937B422 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 11:13:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4QICfO04582; Sat, 26 May 2001 11:12:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: fredrik@speechcraft.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: References: <20010525183157B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010526111241R.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:12:41 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 30 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Fredrik Olausson Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:08:32 +0000 (/etc/localtime) > However, Apple isn't really a part of the open-source community, and it is Really? I know a lot of Darwin / OpenPlay / NetSprocket / CDSA folks who would vehemently disagree with you there! See publicsource.apple.com and also the Apple Public Source License (APSL). > the attitude in the community that I'm concerned about. There is a general > atmosphere of resignation (call it "consolidation" if you will). I might Well, experience typically shows that the only time people start feeling "resigned" about not capturing a market segment is when they have not, in fact, captured it and there don't seem to be very many people doing anything about it. At that point, you have two groups of people emerge: Those who wring their hands about the fact that nobody's doing anything about it and those who actually pitch in and start doing something about it. The KDE and Gnome projects were started by the latter sorts of people and, as far as I can see, the former group are like a garnish - they're highly visible but they don't actually affect the outcome of things either way. Without people actually diving in and addressing the issues in a far more tangible way, you just get a lot of anguished handwaving for months and months but nothing else. Which category do you fall into? :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 11:45:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailg.telia.com (mailg.telia.com [194.22.194.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2480737B422 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 11:45:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from d1o74.telia.com (d1o74.telia.com [62.20.224.241]) by mailg.telia.com (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4QIjfj16992; Sat, 26 May 2001 20:45:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from molly.telia.com (t2o74p79.telia.com [62.20.224.199]) by d1o74.telia.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22417; Sat, 26 May 2001 20:45:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 20:46:00 +0000 (/etc/localtime) From: Fredrik Olausson X-Sender: fredrik@molly.telia.com To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <20010526111241R.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 26 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > However, Apple isn't really a part of the open-source community, and it is > > Really? I know a lot of Darwin / OpenPlay / NetSprocket / CDSA folks > who would vehemently disagree with you there! See publicsource.apple.com > and also the Apple Public Source License (APSL). I meant the're not a part of the Slashdot in-crowd :) > The KDE and Gnome projects were started by the latter sorts of people > and, as far as I can see, the former group are like a garnish - > they're highly visible but they don't actually affect the outcome of > things either way. Without people actually diving in and addressing > the issues in a far more tangible way, you just get a lot of anguished > handwaving for months and months but nothing else. Which category > do you fall into? :-) *ouch* that hurt ;) I would like to think I'm part of the first crowd, I'm writing on a Qt based strategy game which hopefully will be finished before the next turn of the century. Well, it's not so much a game as a framework for developing games, the idea being that people who are better than me at doing graphics and sounds and stuff build their own games on top of the engine and just use the engine's network play capabilities and AI (the engine allows for any number of human or computer players). All aspects of the game can be changed from the campaign building tool. Anyhow, it's going to be really cool - look out for an announcement in bright lights and neon regarding this revolution in computer games, inventively named "tbs", for "turn based strategy". Seriously, though, you are of course right. It is better to actually do something about the situation than to whine about it, but I feel that's the problem. The attitude isn't "Oh, we don't have 'world domination', so lets work harder" it is "well, the desktop is pretty lost, lets concentrate on what we do best, ie servers". It is apathy! -Fredrik To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 12: 3:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883EB37B422 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 12:03:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1191"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K40VCGDJTQ013N83@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 26 May 2001 15:03:17 EDT Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:10:16 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: BSD license getting more attention lately. To: Trevor Johnson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B0FFF98.70E8E505@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010525233928.Q13035-100000@blues.jpj.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Trevor Johnson wrote: > > > If you are releasing modules with source under terms that are at least > > as free as the GPL (eg BSD without advertising clause) then nobody has > > any cares. > > This seems to mean more or less "the new BSD license is fine with us." > > > I wonder how their modified GPL protects them from patents, > > Not at all, perhaps? > > > not to mention the one in RTlinux. > > Please explicate. > explain?? OK. From http://www.rtlinux.com : "RTLinux (RTL:Original and RTL:BSD) is a fast, predictable realtime operating system that runs Linux or NetBSD in its spare time. It was created by FSMLabs which sells, supports and develops it. The PATENTED RTLinux design provides extreme realtime performance but allows programmers to make use of the powerful features and applications of a full-scale POSIX operating system." cheers, Pedro To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 12:15:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE5137B423 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 12:15:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA07452; Sat, 26 May 2001 21:15:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Trevor Johnson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD license getting more attention lately. References: <20010525233928.Q13035-100000@blues.jpj.net> <3B0FFF98.70E8E505@pitt.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 26 May 2001 21:15:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3B0FFF98.70E8E505@pitt.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Pedro F. Giffuni" writes: > "RTLinux (RTL:Original and RTL:BSD) is a fast, predictable realtime > operating system that runs Linux or NetBSD in its spare time. It was > created by FSMLabs which sells, supports and develops it. The PATENTED > RTLinux design provides extreme realtime performance but allows > programmers to make use of the powerful features and applications of a > full-scale POSIX operating system." I wonder how long it'll be before they sue IBM for royalties (and punitive damages) for MVS, which seems to me to infringe on their patent. Of course, MVS has been around for, what, 15 years? 20 years? But then again, prior art doesn't seem to mean much these days. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 13:51:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (smtp-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C24D137B43C for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 13:51:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051025D3A; Sat, 26 May 2001 15:51:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:51:25 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Fredrik Olausson Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 26 May 2001, Fredrik Olausson wrote: : :On Sat, 26 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: :> > However, Apple isn't really a part of the open-source community, and it is :> :> Really? I know a lot of Darwin / OpenPlay / NetSprocket / CDSA folks :> who would vehemently disagree with you there! See publicsource.apple.com :> and also the Apple Public Source License (APSL). : :I meant the're not a part of the Slashdot in-crowd :) That's not really a very useful definition. The /. in crowd seems less interested in the technical merits of a thing than whether it's cool enough for them. David -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 14:16:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maild.telia.com (maild.telia.com [194.22.190.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBB437B423 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from d1o74.telia.com (d1o74.telia.com [62.20.224.241]) by maild.telia.com (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4QLGA108388; Sat, 26 May 2001 23:16:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from molly.telia.com (t6o74p118.telia.com [212.181.216.238]) by d1o74.telia.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22125; Sat, 26 May 2001 23:16:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 23:16:31 +0000 (/etc/localtime) From: Fredrik Olausson X-Sender: fredrik@molly.telia.com To: David Scheidt Cc: Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 26 May 2001, David Scheidt wrote: > On Sat, 26 May 2001, Fredrik Olausson wrote: > > : > :On Sat, 26 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > :> > However, Apple isn't really a part of the open-source community, and it is > :> > :> Really? I know a lot of Darwin / OpenPlay / NetSprocket / CDSA folks > :> who would vehemently disagree with you there! See publicsource.apple.com > :> and also the Apple Public Source License (APSL). > : > :I meant the're not a part of the Slashdot in-crowd :) > > That's not really a very useful definition. The /. in crowd seems less > interested in the technical merits of a thing than whether it's cool > enough for them. This is true. Somehow, though, I have gotten a feeling that while Apple certainly have "embraced" (I hate that word) open-source, they, as a company, aren't that commited to the open-source community (again, I might be wrong). While the kernel of MacOS is BSD-based, is really the rest of the platform? Does the GUI run on top of X? Again, the feeling I get is that Apple, again, as a company, has picked up some bits of very good code without returning that much to the community. For an analogy, take RedHat - the company has made big bucks un Linux, and has in return released software like RPM to the public, when they could have chosen not to. Apple could, for example, have built Aqua as a plain ol' windowmanager and released it back to the public. I wonder if Apple's commitment to the community will strenghten or lessen if MacOSX becomes a strong seller. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 14:20:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (usr.srcsys.org [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DC23A37B422 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:20:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 28747 invoked by uid 1000); 26 May 2001 21:17:09 -0000 Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:17:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: Fredrik Olausson Cc: David Scheidt , Jordan Hubbard , Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm top posting... no cookie for me. Apple couldn't have done Aqua as a plain old X window manager. Well, they could have, but it would have been 100% different. Aqua runs on top of Display PDF (which is the new version of DPS which NeXT used), and it gives apple totally different ways of doing things.... How exactly is beyond the scope of this email, but Apple's site has plenty of good info. -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, & xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d-- s+:++ a--- C+++ UB++++ P+++ L- E---- W++ N+ o-- K- w++ O M+ V PS+ PE- Y+ PGP++ t++ 5-- X+ R tv- b++ DI+ D--- G e* h! r% z+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ On Sat, 26 May 2001, Fredrik Olausson wrote: > > On Sat, 26 May 2001, David Scheidt wrote: > > > On Sat, 26 May 2001, Fredrik Olausson wrote: > > > > : > > :On Sat, 26 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > :> > However, Apple isn't really a part of the open-source community, and it is > > :> > > :> Really? I know a lot of Darwin / OpenPlay / NetSprocket / CDSA folks > > :> who would vehemently disagree with you there! See publicsource.apple.com > > :> and also the Apple Public Source License (APSL). > > : > > :I meant the're not a part of the Slashdot in-crowd :) > > > > That's not really a very useful definition. The /. in crowd seems less > > interested in the technical merits of a thing than whether it's cool > > enough for them. > > This is true. Somehow, though, I have gotten a feeling that while Apple > certainly have "embraced" (I hate that word) open-source, they, as a > company, aren't that commited to the open-source community (again, I might > be wrong). While the kernel of MacOS is BSD-based, is really the rest of > the platform? Does the GUI run on top of X? Again, the feeling I get is > that Apple, again, as a company, has picked up some bits of very good code > without returning that much to the community. For an analogy, take RedHat > - the company has made big bucks un Linux, and has in return released > software like RPM to the public, when they could have chosen not to. Apple > could, for example, have built Aqua as a plain ol' windowmanager and > released it back to the public. I wonder if Apple's commitment to the > community will strenghten or lessen if MacOSX becomes a strong seller. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 14:28:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from messiah.megadeb.org (cpe.atm0-0-0-218131.arcnxx5.customer.tele.dk [62.242.79.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCF637B422 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:28:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from messiah@runbox.com) Received: (from messiah@localhost) by messiah.megadeb.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4QLUIf62661 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 26 May 2001 23:30:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from messiah) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 23:30:18 +0200 From: Munish Chopra To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010526233018.P13617@messiah.megadeb.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from fredrik@speechcraft.com on Sat, May 26, 2001 at 11:16:31PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 26, 2001 at 11:16:31PM +0000, Fredrik Olausson wrote: > > On Sat, 26 May 2001, David Scheidt wrote: > > > On Sat, 26 May 2001, Fredrik Olausson wrote: > > > > : > > :On Sat, 26 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > :> > However, Apple isn't really a part of the open-source community, and it is > > :> > > :> Really? I know a lot of Darwin / OpenPlay / NetSprocket / CDSA folks > > :> who would vehemently disagree with you there! See publicsource.apple.com > > :> and also the Apple Public Source License (APSL). > > : > > :I meant the're not a part of the Slashdot in-crowd :) > > > > That's not really a very useful definition. The /. in crowd seems less > > interested in the technical merits of a thing than whether it's cool > > enough for them. > > This is true. Somehow, though, I have gotten a feeling that while Apple > certainly have "embraced" (I hate that word) open-source, they, as a > company, aren't that commited to the open-source community (again, I might > be wrong). While the kernel of MacOS is BSD-based, is really the rest of This isn't really in spirit with the rest of the discussion, but I'm under the firm impression that the kernel of MacOS X is based on MACH, with a BSD compatibility layer on top...does that layer bite into the kernel or what? -- -Munish To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 14:41:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailb.telia.com (mailb.telia.com [194.22.194.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA65037B424 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:41:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from d1o74.telia.com (d1o74.telia.com [62.20.224.241]) by mailb.telia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27657; Sat, 26 May 2001 23:41:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from molly.telia.com (t1o74p109.telia.com [62.20.224.109]) by d1o74.telia.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07981; Sat, 26 May 2001 23:41:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 23:41:46 +0000 (/etc/localtime) From: Fredrik Olausson X-Sender: fredrik@molly.telia.com To: Munish Chopra Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <20010526233018.P13617@messiah.megadeb.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 26 May 2001, Munish Chopra wrote: > This isn't really in spirit with the rest of the discussion, but I'm > under the firm impression that the kernel of MacOS X is based on MACH, > with a BSD compatibility layer on top...does that layer bite into the > kernel or what? Haven't got a clue, I'm just a user :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 15:23:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3FD37B42C for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 15:23:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4QMNKO05440; Sat, 26 May 2001 15:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: fredrik@speechcraft.com Cc: dscheidt@tumbolia.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010526152320O.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:23:20 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 21 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think you're over-simplifying Apple's position somewhat. While I certainly would love to see Aqua and all the Carbon/Cocoa APIs released as Open Source (and said as much in this Salon article at http://www.salon.com/tech/review/2000/11/17/hubbard_osx/index.html), I don't think it's realistic to expect Apple to just throw the doors open and release software which cost it thousands of man-hours to write. There has to be some sort of financial return for anyone to make open source work, and in Apple's case this goes well beyond just hardware sales - they've already made a lot of money from selling OS X and will likely continue to do so. What I would expect Apple to do more of is _gradually_ open sourcing things once they've paid their way and have transitioned from differentiating to commodity technology. I'm impressed that they open-sourced CDSA right out of the starting gate, in fact. It's something that tends to indicate an understanding of the dividing line between technology that's a genuine value-add vs being purely infrastructural and standards oriented. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 15:26:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE28F37B422 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 15:26:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4QMQVO05458; Sat, 26 May 2001 15:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: jmallett@xMach.org Cc: fredrik@speechcraft.com, dscheidt@tumbolia.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010526152631Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:26:31 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 17 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Joseph A. Mallett" Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:17:09 -0400 (EDT) > Apple couldn't have done Aqua as a plain old X window manager. Well, they Right - that's something I left out of my previous message. To have suggested that Apple could have accomplished their goals by simply bolting a new look-and-feel on top of X was just ludicrous (sorry). They're trying to make an OS that your grandmother could use, with a good printing model and lots of API support for mainstream apps. X with a new window manager that most certainly is not. They were right to start from scratch. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 16:21:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247E337B43C for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 16:21:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 153nNI-000D1v-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 00:21:36 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4QNLaM58505 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 27 May 2001 00:21:36 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 00:21:35 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: wind river questions Message-ID: <20010527002135.A58455@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know when the selected questions will be posted? jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 26 19:35:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F91737B422 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 19:35:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1035"@[136.142.20.83]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K41B50RGX8013QDT@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 26 May 2001 22:35:26 EDT Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 22:41:33 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: RTL:BSD (was Re: BSD license getting more attention lately.) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B10695D.197510E2@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010525233928.Q13035-100000@blues.jpj.net> <3B0FFF98.70E8E505@pitt.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is probably a topic for -realtime (If something comes out of this, some kind soul should consider moving it there), but I wonder how easy it would be to make a replacement scheduler on a kld. This is the approach used for Vassal on Windows NT (I found that on Microsoft's Research site while looking for documentation on Scheduler Activations). The code for Vassal is probably available, but if we take the GPLd linuxRT I doubt they could sue us..could they? cheers, Pedro. Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > "Pedro F. Giffuni" writes: > > "RTLinux (RTL:Original and RTL:BSD) is a fast, predictable realtime > > operating system that runs Linux or NetBSD in its spare time. It was > > created by FSMLabs which sells, supports and develops it. The PATENTED > > RTLinux design provides extreme realtime performance but allows > > programmers to make use of the powerful features and applications of a > > full-scale POSIX operating system." > > I wonder how long it'll be before they sue IBM for royalties (and > punitive damages) for MVS, which seems to me to infringe on their > patent. Of course, MVS has been around for, what, 15 years? 20 > years? But then again, prior art doesn't seem to mean much these > days. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message