From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 9 21: 9:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13607.mail.yahoo.com (web13607.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6180337B406 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2001 21:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20010910040911.33587.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Sep 2001 21:09:11 PDT Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 21:09:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Books on FreeBSD and local libraries To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi All, would it help if we all start bugging local libraries to get a book or two on FreeBSD? I just requested to do so a local community college and a public library to get Ms Anderson's book. (as well as the one by Mt Mittelspiel). "FreeBSD Unleashed" is coming too. What do you think? The authorship is not a profitable pastime at all, I'd be schilling differently :)) Best, B P.S. Btw, Anderson's book is a chef's d'oeuvre - not an easy task to make an easy read on a subject like that. Excellent product. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 10 7:32: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-57-209.knology.net [24.214.57.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E70B37B401; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f8AEVrO90365; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:31:53 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:31:53 -0500 From: David Kelly To: Bzdik BSD Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Books on FreeBSD and local libraries Message-ID: <20010910093153.A90211@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: <20010910040911.33587.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010910040911.33587.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com>; from bzdik@yahoo.com on Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 09:09:11PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 09:09:11PM -0700, Bzdik BSD wrote: > Hi All, > > would it help if we all start bugging local libraries to get a book or > two on FreeBSD? I just requested to do so a local community college > and > a public library to get Ms Anderson's book. (as well as the one by Mt > Mittelspiel). "FreeBSD Unleashed" is coming too. What do you think? I think the best way to "bug" a library to offer a book for lending is to purchase one or more and deliver them along with the request. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 10 7:39:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3443D37B401; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silver-lynx.com (fly.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.98]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f8AEd0s42253; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:39:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from don@silver-lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B9CCFCF.A1C5E743@silver-lynx.com> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:35:59 -0600 From: Don Wilde Organization: Silver Lynx X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: Bzdik BSD , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Books on FreeBSD and local libraries References: <20010910040911.33587.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> <20010910093153.A90211@grumpy.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > I think the best way to "bug" a library to offer a book for lending is > to purchase one or more and deliver them along with the request. > That certainly helps, but I have a caution there: The public libraries in my area claim that they get far too many books donated, and all too often they'll just dump good books (even new ones!) in the book sale bin for quick cash rather than adding them to the collection. You have to specify explicitly that you do not want that to happen. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 10 9:33:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B5037B401; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f8AGXL726181; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:33:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "David Kelly" Cc: "FreeBSD Advocacy" , Subject: RE: Books on FreeBSD and local libraries Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:33:20 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c13a16$4da2f020$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010910093153.A90211@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The libraries here have a website that patrons can put book titles into to request that the library buy them. Usually they are pretty good about purchasing requested books. I imagine that they get so few requests for specific titles as opposed to the total number of books that they buy that satisfying the requests is not a problem for them. After all it is part of their charter. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of David Kelly >Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 7:32 AM >To: Bzdik BSD >Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Books on FreeBSD and local libraries > > >On Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 09:09:11PM -0700, Bzdik BSD wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> would it help if we all start bugging local libraries to get a book or >> two on FreeBSD? I just requested to do so a local community college >> and >> a public library to get Ms Anderson's book. (as well as the one by Mt >> Mittelspiel). "FreeBSD Unleashed" is coming too. What do you think? > >I think the best way to "bug" a library to offer a book for lending is >to purchase one or more and deliver them along with the request. > >-- >David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net >===================================================================== >The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its >capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 10 10: 9: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8922537B403; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id MAA3115427 Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:08:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA66647; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:10:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:10:10 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Don Wilde Cc: David Kelly , Bzdik BSD , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Books on FreeBSD and local libraries Message-ID: <20010910101010.B66603@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010910040911.33587.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> <20010910093153.A90211@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3B9CCFCF.A1C5E743@silver-lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <3B9CCFCF.A1C5E743@silver-lynx.com>; from don@silver-lynx.com on Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 08:35:59AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There are often people who are paid to buy books. I would imagine that they might resent outsiders determining what is in the library's collection. [RC] On Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 08:35:59AM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > David Kelly wrote: > > > > I think the best way to "bug" a library to offer a book for lending is > > to purchase one or more and deliver them along with the request. > > > That certainly helps, but I have a caution there: The public libraries > in my area claim that they get far too many books donated, and all too > often they'll just dump good books (even new ones!) in the book sale bin > for quick cash rather than adding them to the collection. You have to > specify explicitly that you do not want that to happen. > -- > Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com > Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects > 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 > 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 10 11: 3:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web12301.mail.yahoo.com (web12301.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A7D3237B406 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20010910180350.51387.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.194.56.253] by web12301.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:03:50 PDT Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:03:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Wilson Subject: Re: Books on FreeBSD and local libraries To: Robert Clark Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010910101010.B66603@darkstar.gte.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Robert Clark wrote: > > There are often people who are paid to buy books. > > I would imagine that they might resent outsiders > determining what is in the library's collection. Certainly not at the library I worked at, and I highly doubt at any. I mean, yes, buying books is one of the things paid staff do, but I can't imagine a librarian resenting a member of the public providing input on what should be in the library's collection. Just so long as you don't assume that requesting "Yak Breeding for Dummies" will mean they will buy it. Technology books in particular can be difficult, because they have a short life-span, and because librarians don't always have the expertise to shop for good ones. There may be other barriers, such as CD processing, confusion over copyright etc. The best thing to do is talk to the library. Find out who is in charge of purchasing, and ask what you can do to get books of your choice on the shelf. Request? Donate? They might even appreciate advice on which books are old and outdated and should be weeded. Libraries often work on tight budgets, and welcome all the help they can get, just as long as you don't think that paying taxes entitles you to run the library. ===== : __o : -\<, : 0/ 0 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 10 12:13:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE74037B408 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (relay2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3-2) with ESMTP id f8AJDdc16242; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:13:39 +0200 (MEST) Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3/5) with ESMTP id f8AJDcu16238; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:13:38 +0200 (MEST) Received: from zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.28]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02676; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:13:36 +0200 Received: by zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6BEAD14B55; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:13:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:13:38 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Bzdik BSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: surprise: he finds FreeBSD is a better OS Message-ID: <20010910211338.B41765@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> References: <20010906234632.69025.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010906234632.69025.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com>; from bzdik@yahoo.com on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 04:46:32PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Bzdik BSD (bzdik@yahoo.com): > or sources. The FreeBSD system always correctly installed or denied to > install subsystems. I wonder what package system he is using... Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 10 15:30:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.102.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5244937B401; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.11.1/8.11.0) id f8AMZRV66435; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:35:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:35:26 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Robert Clark Cc: Don Wilde , David Kelly , Bzdik BSD , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Books on FreeBSD and local libraries Message-ID: <20010910153526.B65659@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <20010910040911.33587.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> <20010910093153.A90211@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3B9CCFCF.A1C5E743@silver-lynx.com> <20010910101010.B66603@darkstar.gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010910101010.B66603@darkstar.gte.net>; from res03db2@gte.net on Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 10:10:10AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 10:10:10AM -0700, Robert Clark wrote: > There are often people who are paid to buy books. > > I would imagine that they might resent outsiders > determining what is in the library's collection. The libraries that I am familiar with express their resentment by providing outsiders (whom they call "patrons") with little cards or even online forms on which to specify their requests. While you might expect them to use these cards to start a bonfire or similar festivity, I have found that they instead use them as an indication of what books they might want to buy, and sometimes even notify the "outsider" when the volume has been added to the collection. -- Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 10 15:48:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C237537B403; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA53009; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:47:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:47:40 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Matthew Hunt Cc: Robert Clark , Don Wilde , David Kelly , Bzdik BSD , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Books on FreeBSD and local libraries Message-ID: <20010910184740.A52972@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010910040911.33587.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> <20010910093153.A90211@grumpy.dyndns.org> <3B9CCFCF.A1C5E743@silver-lynx.com> <20010910101010.B66603@darkstar.gte.net> <20010910153526.B65659@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010910153526.B65659@wopr.caltech.edu>; from mph@astro.caltech.edu on Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 03:35:26PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, let me advertise both my biases here: I am a recovering university librarian. I am also a forthcoming FreeBSD book author. If you want a book to be added to your library, here's how to go about it. First, fill out a request card, if offered. Believe it or else, you can generally speak with an acquisitions librarian. If you have a book that you're willing to donate, attach a review from a reputable source -- not necessarily the New York Times Review of Books, but amazon.com is at least recognizable. Show it to the acquisitions librarian, and ask if they're interested. If you don't want to lay out the cash first, bring in the review and ask if they'd be interested. Some librarians are petty tyrants who will not accept anything that might interfere with their absolute mastery of all topics in the library. Most, however, are decent people who want to provide good & useful books. If you say, "I'm a professional, I work with this stuff, and I'd like to donate this to the library because I found it very useful for my field" they'll jump on it. Just say, "If you decide to not accept this for the collection, I'd like the book back." Most of what gets donated to the library is, to put it bluntly, crap. Librarians know their patrons. Many donations are sold simply because the librarian has learned through experience that it will never be checked out. At the university where I worked, some books had never been checked out since being acquired in 1958. The university opened in 1957. Shelf space for these dusty tomes is not a minor concern. In short, talk to the acquisitions librarian. Say you'll buy it if they'll shelf it. Give them a review. Most purchasing decisions are based on reviews. On Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 03:35:26PM -0700, Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 10:10:10AM -0700, Robert Clark wrote: > > > There are often people who are paid to buy books. > > > > I would imagine that they might resent outsiders > > determining what is in the library's collection. > > The libraries that I am familiar with express their resentment > by providing outsiders (whom they call "patrons") with little cards > or even online forms on which to specify their requests. > > While you might expect them to use these cards to start a bonfire > or similar festivity, I have found that they instead use them as an > indication of what books they might want to buy, and sometimes even > notify the "outsider" when the volume has been added to the collection. > > -- > Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the > http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 10 20:21:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B5037B405; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f8B3LK718913; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:21:20 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:21:20 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Robert Clark Cc: Don Wilde , David Kelly , Bzdik BSD , , Subject: Re: Books on FreeBSD and local libraries In-Reply-To: <20010910101010.B66603@darkstar.gte.net> Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: galt@inconnu.isu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not at a Carnegie library: they have to accept all donated books in good condition or lose funding. On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Robert Clark wrote: > >There are often people who are paid to buy books. > >I would imagine that they might resent outsiders >determining what is in the library's collection. > >[RC] > > >On Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 08:35:59AM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: >> David Kelly wrote: >> > >> > I think the best way to "bug" a library to offer a book for lending is >> > to purchase one or more and deliver them along with the request. >> > >> That certainly helps, but I have a caution there: The public libraries >> in my area claim that they get far too many books donated, and all too >> often they'll just dump good books (even new ones!) in the book sale bin >> for quick cash rather than adding them to the collection. You have to >> specify explicitly that you do not want that to happen. >> -- >> Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com >> Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects >> 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 >> 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- void hamlet() {#define question=((bb)||(!bb))} Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu. that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 10 21:46:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575AA37B406 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8B4kGx03872 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:46:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:49:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: 5.0 project list ("Help Wanted") In-Reply-To: <20010910170013Q.jkh@freebsd.org> Message-ID: <20010911004636.D26176-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Many people, upon hearing of 5.0's untimely delay for a full year, > have asked what they can do to help 5.0 get back on track. What > follows, in no particular order, is a list of outstanding projects for > 5.0 and as much information on them as I've been able to collect > thus far. Thanks! > - Jordan > o Itanium (IA-64) Port > o AMD 64 bit ("Hammerhead") port. > o PowerPC Port > o Sun UltraSPARC Port I sure hope the release of 5.0 won't have to wait until support for all those additional platforms are ready. Specially Itanium and Hammerheard. Those platforms are either just starting to come out (Intel) or not even out (AMD) for general consumption. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 11 5:44:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A649637B407 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 05:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f8BCiWE46684; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:44:32 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:44:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <200109111244.f8BCiWE46684@prism.flugsvamp.com> To: lists@natserv.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 5.0 project list ("Help Wanted") X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > >> Many people, upon hearing of 5.0's untimely delay for a full year, >> have asked what they can do to help 5.0 get back on track. What >> follows, in no particular order, is a list of outstanding projects for >> 5.0 and as much information on them as I've been able to collect >> thus far. Thanks! >> - Jordan >> o Itanium (IA-64) Port >> o AMD 64 bit ("Hammerhead") port. >> o PowerPC Port >> o Sun UltraSPARC Port > > >I sure hope the release of 5.0 won't have to wait until support for all >those additional platforms are ready. Specially Itanium and >Hammerheard. Those platforms are either just starting to come out (Intel) >or not even out (AMD) for general consumption. No, that is unlikely. The work that _needs_ to be completed before 5.0 is in a shape ready for release is SMP and KSE. While it would be very nice to ship 5.0 with support for more platforms, it would be unfair to hold up the release just for them. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 11 11: 0:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [171.66.112.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC6237B403; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA70196; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:58:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Bzdik BSD Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Books on FreeBSD and local libraries In-Reply-To: <20010910040911.33587.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Bzdik BSD wrote: > Hi All, > > would it help if we all start bugging local libraries to get a book or > two on FreeBSD? I just requested to do so a local community college > and > a public library to get Ms Anderson's book. (as well as the one by Mt > Mittelspiel). "FreeBSD Unleashed" is coming too. What do you think? > > The authorship is not a profitable pastime at all, I'd be schilling > differently :)) > > Best, B > > P.S. Btw, Anderson's book is a chef's d'oeuvre - not an easy task to > make an easy read on a subject like that. Excellent product. > > Thank you! Libraries are nice and because the budgets of public libraries are determined by the local politicians, librarians are responsive to the public. (That's why there's so much paperback romantic fiction aimed at women on the shelves.) But this is a highly specific market; the mailing lists and USENET are one way to reach it (and IRC), if "appropriately" done. Lehey does something weekly on -questions. Also there are all those parents out there worried about their kids who spend hours playing computer games and wondering how they can redirect this fascination to something that has more potential for learning. There are computer magazines, hard copy and on-line. I haven't checked slash/dot recently but the initial poster who picked up the announcement about my book asked if anyone wanted to review it. I expressed a willingness on -advocacy to provide review copies (and haven't followed up on all the resulting mail), but most of the responses were from people interested in advising me about how to communicate with new users (that's already baked in the cake, pretty much, except for line-by-line correction of errors); what I wanted was on-line book reviews, of which so far there's only DaemonNews (thanks Linh!). There's always Amazon, too, where no on-line review has yet appeared. A few people have taken the trouble to review Ted Mittelstaedt's wonderful book there. Home schoolers....they number over a million, and parents are heavily involved and in touch with other home-schooling parents and there are many "group" activities. (I spoke to a group of several hundred Bay Area home schoolers about the year's topic for their debate clubs a few years ago.) Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 11 19:16: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web11508.mail.yahoo.com (web11508.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C692637B401 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20010912021607.47599.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.68.134.82] by web11508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:16:07 PDT Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:16:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Fabio Miranda To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, i would like to know if are there any freebsd developer or user that is teacher or is doing a research at a university?like Berkeley, mit, ucla, london, etc. I'm interest in apply for a master in computer science, i am hooked on unix-like oses and network and internetwork security. thanks. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 11:50:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86AF037B407 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) id f8CIo1m22200; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:50:01 +0200 (MET DST) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f8CIkvN05572; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:46:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:46:54 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Bzdik BSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: surprise: he finds FreeBSD is a better OS Message-ID: <20010912204654.A19750@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <20010906234632.69025.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010906234632.69025.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com>; from bzdik@yahoo.com on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 04:46:32PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RC SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You forget to mention his conclusion, which doesn't look so shiny: =46rom http://www.byte.com/documents/s=3D1267/byt20010829s0001/0903_moshe.h= tml "Conclusion If I had to chose between having my colocated box running FreeBSD or Linux, this would be a very difficult choice for me. I like FreeBSD's almost automatic update feature (which is present in the Linux Debian distribution as well, by the way). It is certainly more stable and a bit faster than Linux. But overall, I would still go with Linux because of all the goodies available only with the Linux kernel, such as the LIDS system and the journaling filesystems." Andreas /// --=20 Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ Songs from our band >> 64Bits << http://hometown.aol.com/II64BitsII --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7n62cd3o+lGxvbLoRAr4MAKCHZBciuFfNt2GhUHxjJu/QN3KpDQCcDoW8 BNPljfxkJDjxv1m8faObM8I= =c5dB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 16:48:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.the-i-pa.com (mail.the-i-pa.com [151.201.71.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5200837B403 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 97036 invoked from network); 12 Sep 2001 23:58:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy.the-i-pa.com) (151.201.71.210) by mail.the-i-pa.com with SMTP; 12 Sep 2001 23:58:24 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Bill Moran Organization: Potential Technology To: Milo Hyson , Help Victims , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:51:26 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is not appropriate for -questions, so I've moved it to -chat Basically, I'm confused as to what your point is? Are you pointing out that all people are imperfect? Are you reiterating the fact that racism is rampant across the world? Are you suggesting that the world is full of insane people? Basically, I see it this way. Violence is a sign of immaturity. There are a LOT of immature people in this world. President Bush appears to be intent on proving to the world just how immature the United States is by rewarding violence with more violence. I hope the world grows up before it destroys itself. Read your history, WW I took far less violence than this to start. We're travelling down a familiar road right now, and the street signs say WW III. On a more FreeBSD related note, do you think this will provoke the US government to create restrictions hurtful to the free software community? Such as crypto restrictions, or new laws allowing the government to invade our privacy as we use the internet? All in the name of "protecting the country from possible terrorist threats?" Could pgp be outlawed? -Bill On Wednesday 12 September 2001 18:51, Milo Hyson wrote: > On Wednesday 12 September 2001 02:55 pm, Help Victims wrote: > > Hi everyone. As many of you are aware, people in Egypt and > > other countries celebrated the attacks on New York and > > Washington. > > I know some of my following statements are going to be very unpopular with > my fellow Americans (and this whole thread is quite off-topic from the > charter of this mailing list) but here it goes anyway. > > I agree that the celebration of death, destruction and the victories of war > is a horrendous concept. I agree that it shouldn't happen. But it does ... > and we do it too. > > Over two hundred years ago, after fighting for our independence from > Britain, we celebrated our victory, ignoring all of the people that were > killed, mamed and permenantly disfigured. Grown men lying on ground in > agony, crying out for their mothers like they were two years old. The fact > that most of them were soldiers (or so we're told) is irrelevant. They were > still human beings with thoughts, feelings and dreams. We continue to > celebrate this every 4th of July. > > In the Gulf War, we bombed the shit out of Bahgdad killing many innocent > people in the process. We celebrated our victory there too. > > Yesterday while watching news coverage of the attacks, I overheard someone > say repeatedly that we should nuke every foreign country to "get rid of > them all." He used the term "dune coon" many times, referring to people of > Arab ethnicity. > > Please understand that I'm in no way condoning what happened yesterday > morning. Like many people, I wish there were a way to turn back time and > prevent it. One of my clients lost employees in the attack, people that I > knew and had met with many times in the course of business. People that I > will never meet again. > > Just realize that when it comes to war, Americans can be just as cold and > heartless as the ones who carried out this attack. In the end, it doesn't > matter what country you're from, what color your skin is, what language you > speak or what god you pray to (if any). We're all human, with the same goal > ..... life. -- Bill Moran Potential Technology technical services (412) 793-4257 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 17: 1:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13607.mail.yahoo.com (web13607.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C7C5837B40A for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20010912220504.63522.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:05:04 PDT Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:05:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: surprise: he finds FreeBSD is a better OS To: Andreas Klemm , Bzdik BSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010912204654.A19750@titan.klemm.gtn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Andreas Klemm wrote: > You forget to mention his conclusion, which doesn't look so shiny: > > From > http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1267/byt20010829s0001/0903_moshe.html > "Conclusion If I had to chose between having my colocated box > running FreeBSD or Linux, this would be a very difficult choice > for me. I like FreeBSD's almost automatic update feature (which is > present in the Linux Debian distribution as well, by the way). It > is certainly more stable and a bit faster than Linux. But overall, > I would still go with Linux because of all the goodies available > only with the Linux kernel, such as the LIDS system and the > journaling filesystems." > > > Andreas /// Naah, look at his "reasoning": journalling FS, he doesn't even go into which one - Reiser is a known data eater when you run oracle, postfix or any other heavy i/o ( at least it was at the time he wrote, they feverishly work on a fix). And the softupdate vs reiser was discussed ad nauseum all over the Universe. There are few things that I like in my Debian more, but for a production env server - it's a *BSD or a Solaris here. I'd recommend a Linux or Solaris for java developer, there is a tool for everybody around. Anybody knows why they waste so much resources on reiser when there are much better tools from SGI and IBM? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 17:32: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-94-248-46.mmcable.com [24.94.248.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A0B237B40B for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 49003 invoked by uid 100); 13 Sep 2001 00:31:59 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15263.65151.364605.802268@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:31:59 -0500 To: Bill Moran Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Repercussions (Was: Helping victims of terror) In-Reply-To: <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran types: > On a more FreeBSD related note, do you think this will provoke the US > government to create restrictions hurtful to the free software community? > Such as crypto restrictions, or new laws allowing the government to invade > our privacy as we use the internet? All in the name of "protecting the country > from possible terrorist threats?" Could pgp be outlawed? This has generated a lot of public emotion. Everyone with an agenda is going to try and channel that to further their goals. I've already heard public officials nattering about the current ineffectiveness of the US intelligence community, the poor record of government employees have at keeping secrets, and the dangers inherent in encryption technology that the police forces can't easily crack. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 17:36:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lab.cyberlifelabs.com (lab.cyberlifelabs.com [208.201.255.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 15AE137B401 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 77324 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2001 00:36:14 -0000 Received: from linny.lab.cyberlifelabs.com (HELO there) (208.201.255.8) by lab.cyberlifelabs.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2001 00:36:14 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Milo Hyson To: Bill Moran , Help Victims , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:36:01 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> In-Reply-To: <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20010913003615.15AE137B401@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 12 September 2001 04:51 pm, Bill Moran wrote: > Basically, I'm confused as to what your point is? My point is that we're no different from the people seen celebrating the destruction of the WTC. We celebrate the destruction of their landmarks just as they're celebrating this one. > Basically, I see it this way. Violence is a sign of immaturity. There are > a LOT of immature people in this world. President Bush appears to be > intent on proving to the world just how immature the United States is > by rewarding violence with more violence. I hope the world grows up > before it destroys itself. Read your history, WW I took far less violence > than this to start. We're travelling down a familiar road right now, and > the street signs say WW III. Complete agreement here. I spent many years living in an international community in Asia. I hung out with people from dozens of different countries. Each had their own beliefs, culture and ideals. However, none of that mattered. We were all just trying to make a living. It didn't matter whether you believed in the Christian god, Buddah, the Goddess of the Moon or nothing. Most people in the world could care less about such things. One thing I did learn from that experience is that the United States looks MUCH different from the outside. In this country we're raised to believe that America is #1 and that anything foreign is worthless crap, be it products, ideas or people. However, people in other countries see through all that. They see us for what we really are -- a bunch of spoiled, arrogant pricks who get upset at the thought of other parts of the world being different than us. I see all of these people on TV saying that they can't believe something like this could happen here. Why not? It happens in other countries. Why not here? What's so special about the US? Are we a country of super-beings? Do we have a force field around the country to keep all of the bad men out? > On a more FreeBSD related note, do you think this will provoke the US > government to create restrictions hurtful to the free software community? > Such as crypto restrictions, or new laws allowing the government to invade > our privacy as we use the internet? All in the name of "protecting the > country from possible terrorist threats?" Could pgp be outlawed? Quite possible. The big argument in favor of controlling encryption has always been to intercept and counteract terrorist and other criminal communications. However, history has proven that US restrictions on such technology has no effect on its development, distribution and use in other countries. A smarter move would be to actually support open-source in a way similar to the European Comission's plan of declaring closed-source to be the least-reliable type of software. This idea stems from the fact that with a closed-source product, one has to take the manufacturer's word as to it's stability, reliability and performance. With open-source, everyone can see what makes it tick and what makes it crap-out. -- Milo Hyson CyberLife Labs, LLC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 17:54:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-94-248-46.mmcable.com [24.94.248.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5989637B401 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 49782 invoked by uid 100); 13 Sep 2001 00:54:41 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15264.977.607982.267671@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:54:41 -0500 To: Milo Hyson Cc: Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <20010913003615.15AE137B401@hub.freebsd.org> References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <20010913003615.15AE137B401@hub.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Milo Hyson types: > One thing I did learn from that experience is that the United States looks > MUCH different from the outside. I recommend World Press Review to get a less biased view of the US. Their yearly comparison of the top 10 news stories as rated by various world news organizations is particularly enlightening. > In this country we're raised to believe that > America is #1 and that anything foreign is worthless crap, be it products, > ideas or people. However, people in other countries see through all that. > They see us for what we really are -- a bunch of spoiled, arrogant pricks who > get upset at the thought of other parts of the world being different than us. This is a perfect example of what I talked about earlier - people using this to push their own private agenda. You appear to be using this to push cultural relativism, whereas I've already got mail from people using it to bash culturual relativism. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 18: 2:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.the-i-pa.com (mail.the-i-pa.com [151.201.71.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A19037B401 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 97302 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2001 01:12:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy.the-i-pa.com) (151.201.71.210) by mail.the-i-pa.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2001 01:12:41 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Bill Moran Organization: Potential Technology To: Milo Hyson , Help Victims , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:05:42 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091221054200.11412@proxy.the-i-pa.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 12 September 2001 20:36, Milo Hyson wrote: > One thing I did learn from that experience is that the United States looks > MUCH different from the outside. In this country we're raised to believe > that America is #1 and that anything foreign is worthless crap, be it > products, ideas or people. However, people in other countries see through > all that. They see us for what we really are -- a bunch of spoiled, > arrogant pricks who get upset at the thought of other parts of the world > being different than us. I resent that. While a considerable portion of US citizens may fit your above description, I, for one, do not. I also know that a considerable portion of the people I know do not. I think you're generalizing too broadly. Perhaps you've been watching too much TV and have been influenced by the media's skewed portrayal of the US public. > I see all of these people on TV saying that they can't believe something > like this could happen here. Why not? It happens in other countries. Why > not here? What's so special about the US? Are we a country of super-beings? > Do we have a force field around the country to keep all of the bad men out? I have to agree with your here. In a sick kind of way, I'm actually rather relieved that this finally happened. I've been fearing it for years. I've been telling people that airport security is a joke for years and folks have thought I was kidding. I know that I'm not the only one who has realized that airport secruity is a joke, and some of the people who know it's ineffective have jobs making it effective. I consider those folks to be just as big of criminals as the wackos that flew those planes into those buildings. > Quite possible. The big argument in favor of controlling encryption has > always been to intercept and counteract terrorist and other criminal > communications. However, history has proven that US restrictions on such > technology has no effect on its development, distribution and use in other > countries. The most important thing is that steps are taken to prevent future occurances, while protecting the rights and freedoms of honest people. IOW: no new laws about what ordinary people aren't allowed to do, but maybe some new checks to make sure they're not doing things that they already aren't allowed to do. > A smarter move would be to actually support open-source in a way similar to > the European Comission's plan of declaring closed-source to be the > least-reliable type of software. This idea stems from the fact that with a > closed-source product, one has to take the manufacturer's word as to it's > stability, reliability and performance. With open-source, everyone can see > what makes it tick and what makes it crap-out. I heard that some place in South America was getting ready to pass some laws or something to this effect. This is an excellent move on the part of a country, if you ask me. -- Bill Moran Potential Technology technical services (412) 793-4257 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 18:13:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lab.cyberlifelabs.com (lab.cyberlifelabs.com [208.201.255.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8908437B405 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 77574 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2001 01:13:24 -0000 Received: from linny.lab.cyberlifelabs.com (HELO there) (208.201.255.8) by lab.cyberlifelabs.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2001 01:13:24 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Milo Hyson To: Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:13:11 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] Cc: Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010913003615.15AE137B401@hub.freebsd.org> <15264.977.607982.267671@guru.mired.org> In-Reply-To: <15264.977.607982.267671@guru.mired.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20010913011325.8908437B405@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 12 September 2001 05:54 pm, Mike Meyer wrote: > This is a perfect example of what I talked about earlier - people > using this to push their own private agenda. You appear to be using > this to push cultural relativism, whereas I've already got mail from > people using it to bash culturual relativism. I'm not pushing anything. I'm simply stating my opinion based on years of watching my fellow Americans make fools of themselves in other countries. -- Milo Hyson CyberLife Labs, LLC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 18:48:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-57-209.knology.net [24.214.57.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA94937B40F; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8D1mKG89031; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:48:20 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200109130148.f8D1mKG89031@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Andreas Klemm Cc: Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: surprise: he finds FreeBSD is a better OS In-reply-to: Message from Andreas Klemm of "Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:46:54 +0200." <20010912204654.A19750@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:48:20 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andreas Klemm writes: > > You forget to mention his conclusion, which doesn't look so shiny: I found his conclusion said more than he thought he was saying. For all of his lip service to a fair discussion and evaluation in the rest of the article he gets right down to brass tacks and shows the Linux bias. He selects "goodies" over reliability. Recognizes FreeBSD's performance is better but elects Linux for a journaling filesystem. He just wants something to play with, the more "play" the better. FreeBSD was too good. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 19:43: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA8E37B410 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22341; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:42:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:42:30 -0600 To: Bill Moran , Milo Hyson , Help Victims , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> References: <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:51 PM 9/12/2001, Bill Moran wrote: >On a more FreeBSD related note, do you think this will provoke the US >government to create restrictions hurtful to the free software community? I certainly hope not! It would help, of course, if people such as Richard Stallman did not promote spiteful agendas which have the same ring to them as those of the terrorists who precipitated this horrible attack. Stallman, like the Islamic fundamentalists who did this terrible thing, promotes an extremist ideology which demonizes others, seeks to destroy them, and is motivated by spite and malice. Thank Heaven that Stallman does not threaten to blow up buildings, and that most advocates of freely redistributable software are more sensible than he. BSD has the right attitude. >Such as crypto restrictions, or new laws allowing the government to invade >our privacy as we use the internet? All in the name of "protecting the country >from possible terrorist threats?" Could pgp be outlawed? It could happen. We should, of course, fight to make sure that it does not. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 20:47:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp004pub.verizon.net (smtp004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.183]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDB137B414 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtp004pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id f8D3lLq29122 Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:47:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA71404; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:48:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:48:43 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Moran , Milo Hyson , Help Victims , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010912204843.B71356@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:42:30PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, do you think you could aim a little lower? There is a very tiny amount of space between where these comments are, and the bottom. If you try a little harder, there won't be anything else to say. Thanks, [RC] On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:42:30PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:51 PM 9/12/2001, Bill Moran wrote: > > >On a more FreeBSD related note, do you think this will provoke the US > >government to create restrictions hurtful to the free software community? > > I certainly hope not! It would help, of course, if people such as Richard > Stallman did not promote spiteful agendas which have the same ring to them > as those of the terrorists who precipitated this horrible attack. Stallman, > like the Islamic fundamentalists who did this terrible thing, promotes > an extremist ideology which demonizes others, seeks to destroy them, > and is motivated by spite and malice. Thank Heaven that Stallman does not > threaten to blow up buildings, and that most advocates of freely > redistributable software are more sensible than he. BSD has the right > attitude. > > >Such as crypto restrictions, or new laws allowing the government to invade > >our privacy as we use the internet? All in the name of "protecting the country > >from possible terrorist threats?" Could pgp be outlawed? > > It could happen. We should, of course, fight to make sure that it does > not. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 22:54:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6E237B414 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.6/8.11.4) id f8D5sSD09691; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:54:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:54:28 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Moran , Milo Hyson , Help Victims , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:42:30PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:42:30PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:51 PM 9/12/2001, Bill Moran wrote: > > >On a more FreeBSD related note, do you think this will provoke the US > >government to create restrictions hurtful to the free software community? > > I certainly hope not! It would help, of course, if people such as Richard > Stallman did not promote spiteful agendas which have the same ring to them > as those of the terrorists who precipitated this horrible attack. Stallman, > like the Islamic fundamentalists who did this terrible thing, promotes > an extremist ideology which demonizes others, seeks to destroy them, > and is motivated by spite and malice. Thank Heaven that Stallman does not > threaten to blow up buildings, and that most advocates of freely > redistributable software are more sensible than he. BSD has the right > attitude. Brett, this email was low even for you. You should be thoroughly ashamed of what you just wrote here. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 12 23:31:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE6E37B40B; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24891; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:31:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:31:44 -0600 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:54 PM 9/12/2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: >Brett, this email was low even for you. You should be thoroughly >ashamed of what you just wrote here. Sorry, Kris, but I'm not. Yesterday's horrific events should give us pause and remind us that we must speak out against hateful vendettas of ALL kinds. The "jihaad" meme is a great danger, regardless of what it targets. Anyone who attempts to rally the "faithful" to destroy others, on the basis of an arbitrary and hateful ideology, should be stopped before he or she can do harm. On this day, of all days, we must remember this. Such people should -- no, must -- be opposed. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 0:10:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C79137B403; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a194.otenet.gr [212.205.215.194]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f8D7AXx09162; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:10:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f8D6aSt11073; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:36:28 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:36:28 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Bzdik BSD Cc: Andreas Klemm , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: surprise: he finds FreeBSD is a better OS Message-ID: <20010913093628.B8964@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010912204654.A19750@titan.klemm.gtn.com> <20010912220504.63522.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010912220504.63522.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com>; from bzdik@yahoo.com on Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 03:05:04PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: surprise: he finds FreeBSD is a better OS Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 03:05:04PM -0700 > Reiser is a known data eater when you run oracle, postfix or any other heavy > i/o ( at least it was at the time he wrote, they feverishly work on a fix). Actually just because something has bugs in it, it does not mean that we should abandon it. A nice way is to, well, correct the bugs. Bearing this in mind, Linux people are doing something which *is* correct with Reiserfs. But advertizing Reiserfs as the 'One True FS(TM)' which should also be used on production machines, is wrong -- with that I can agree any time. > Anybody knows why they waste so much resources on reiser when there are > much better tools from SGI and IBM? Dunno, my expertise in Linux lore is not *that* good to know why things are done the way they are. I've heard complaints for xfs (requires vfs caching to be disabled), but since I don't know what the exact differences of Reiserfs and xfs/jfs are (both in features, and bugs, err, flaws, err, 'known problems'), I'd better shut up now :-) -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 1:17:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-6.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC4037B409; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 969D266D0A; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:17:45 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010913011745.A32387@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:31:44AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:31:44AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:54 PM 9/12/2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: >=20 > >Brett, this email was low even for you. You should be thoroughly > >ashamed of what you just wrote here. >=20 > Sorry, Kris, but I'm not. The fact that your mind can even begin to identify the act of free software development with the act of mass murder of civilians shows the true depth of your monomania and your disconnection from reality. Now excuse me while I go and dig a new pit at the bottom of the hole where I currently keep it, so I can bury my opinion of you even lower. Kris --YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7oGupWry0BWjoQKURAvrOAKDjmpBjcmzVHxI1e5Ur6l4V3pm+igCggjPF 22i/2+CMD8r5EPHW1VqBtGI= =sQ7H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 1:22:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE3537B409 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA25870; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:22:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913021952.045974f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:22:08 -0600 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010913011745.A32387@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:17 AM 9/13/2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: >The fact that your mind can even begin to identify the act of free >software development with the act of mass murder of civilians You're missing the point, Kris, and you know it. Tomorrow, I will be attending, and helping to run, a protest against hate. All kinds of hate. And while there are certainly situations to which all of us will pay more attention, it does occur to me that Stallman's hateful vendetta is an example of the same kind of mindless and destructive hatred. The kind that we should do our best to combat for the good of mankind. No, Stallman did not murder civilians. But he does hate and rally others to hate and to hurt. And this is what we must fight. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 1:33:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C8E8237B405 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 85327 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2001 08:33:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 13 Sep 2001 08:33:01 -0000 Message-ID: <3BA06EFE.980A9782@outpost.co.nz> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:31:58 +1200 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913021952.045974f0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > for the good of mankind. No, Stallman did not murder civilians. But > he does hate and rally others to hate and to hurt. And this is what we > must fight. FFS! Give us one citation where RMS has advocated physically hurting somebody. Idiot. -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 1:43: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D93337B40C for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA26066; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:42:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913023437.045fae70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:42:34 -0600 To: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <3BA06EFE.980A9782@outpost.co.nz> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913021952.045974f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:31 AM 9/13/2001, Craig Harding wrote: >FFS! Give us one citation where RMS has advocated physically hurting >somebody. Hurt comes in many forms besides physical harm. Also, Stallman DOES advocate using the power of government -- which includes physical force -- to compel programmers to forfeit the fruits of their labors. But I don't have time to participate in a long, drawn-out flamefest, nor do the people who read this list want to read one, I'm sure. Again, the point of my original message -- which I think (no, KNOW) is quite valid and germane -- is that mindless, ideological hatred is a danger. This is true whether it motivates fanatics merely to hurt people's livelihoods or to create disasters such as the one the world witnessed on Tuesday. The scale is vastly different, but the principle is the same. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 2:28:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8E337B40F for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15hSms-000ED6-00; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:27:58 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15hSn1-0000cA-00; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:28:07 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:28:07 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Bill Moran Cc: Milo Hyson , Help Victims , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010913102807.A369@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com>; from wmoran@iowna.com on Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:51:26PM -0400 X-Scanner: exiscan *15hSms-000ED6-00*$AK$Kyi.5LJEQT7p63QrRD8iE/* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sep 13, Bill Moran wrote: > This is not appropriate for -questions, so I've moved it to -chat I'm not 100% if it's something -chat wants to get bogged down in... > Basically, I'm confused as to what your point is? His point is that there are lots of people trying to start a war with chants along the lines of 'USA, Number One!', etc. when it's really not required. His point also, is that whilst people may be disgusted at the actions carried out (myself included), on the larger scale of things in World history they are but a mere blip. I know that sounds heartless to say, but his point is that the US have killed millions just in the last 50 years (after WWII) without giving a stuff, and not being concerned because it was 'them' and that was OK. I think his point is that perhaps America should sit down and think about her actions, and WHY this happened. These guys had a reason for doing what they did, and I'm suprised nobody, anywhere, seems to want to discuss what that might have been. It just seems easier to call them cowards and paste over the issue. > Are you pointing out that all people are imperfect? Are you reiterating > the fact that racism is rampant across the world? Are you suggesting > that the world is full of insane people? That would explain the staff at CNN then. Imperfect, massively racist and xenophobic and to be quite honest, judging from their reports, completely and totally insane. > Basically, I see it this way. Violence is a sign of immaturity. There are > a LOT of immature people in this world. President Bush appears to be > intent on proving to the world just how immature the United States is > by rewarding violence with more violence. I hope the world grows up > before it destroys itself. Read your history, WW I took far less violence > than this to start. We're travelling down a familiar road right now, and the > street signs say WW III. Aginst whom? You see, that's the problem here. I understand Bush hasn't been in office long and his IQ is pretty low, but somebody needs to point out that although 'wars' can make you look popular, when you're declaring one, you kind of need to define who you are fighting. You know, like a country or a name or something. Rather than just 'people who don't like the USA'. And before you say 'bin Laden', can I just point out that all evidence suggesting it was him behind this is purely circumstantial and the CIA and FBI would *really* like to get their hands on him so will say ANYTHING if it means they get a chance to kick his butt. Perhaps even lie about their intelligence. > On a more FreeBSD related note, do you think this will provoke the US > government to create restrictions hurtful to the free software community? > Such as crypto restrictions, or new laws allowing the government to invade > our privacy as we use the internet? All in the name of "protecting the country > from possible terrorist threats?" Could pgp be outlawed? I seriously doubt it. If the laws were drafted, the simple argument would be 'how did crypto prevent these men from being detected?' and at this stage I think they would have a hard problem showing that a law against crypto would have helped. Strangely enough, terrorists don't seem too concerned about breaking the law, and I'm sure they wouldn't too bothered about using crypto in their target country if it was illegal. Maybe the law will get drafted, but it will a stupid one, and one that I think most people would just ignore. -- PR To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 3:37:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.the-i-pa.com (mail.the-i-pa.com [151.201.71.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AC02537B40B for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 99606 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2001 10:47:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy.the-i-pa.com) (151.201.71.210) by mail.the-i-pa.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2001 10:47:12 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Bill Moran Organization: Potential Technology To: Paul Robinson Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 06:40:10 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: Milo Hyson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <20010913102807.A369@jake.akitanet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20010913102807.A369@jake.akitanet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091306401000.11655@proxy.the-i-pa.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org NOTE: Do NOT copy the "fight terrorism" address. Ted Mittelstaedt claims that this is a spammer who started the conversation in the hopes that folks would reply (as we did) and he could harvest email addys. On Thursday 13 September 2001 05:28, Paul Robinson wrote: > His point is that there are lots of people trying to start a war with > chants along the lines of 'USA, Number One!', etc. when it's really not > required. His point also, is that whilst people may be disgusted at the > actions carried out (myself included), on the larger scale of things in > World history they are but a mere blip. Agreed. > I know that sounds heartless to say, but his point is that the US have > killed millions just in the last 50 years (after WWII) without giving a > stuff, and not being concerned because it was 'them' and that was OK. I > think his point is that perhaps America should sit down and think about her > actions, and WHY this happened. These guys had a reason for doing what they > did, and I'm suprised nobody, anywhere, seems to want to discuss what that > might have been. It just seems easier to call them cowards and paste over > the issue. I'm sorry, but this is what I'm arguing against. You CAN'T say "American thinks this way" and "America should think about her actions" because "America" isn't a person. Within the US you have millions of people, each with a (potentially) independent opinion, you also have uncounted groups, each of which will offically take a position on this. If foriegn countries take what Bush has said to be the opinion of every US citizen, then those foriegn countries are just as faulty as the racists in the US who are currently blaming all "dune coons" for the deaths. That's a term I've heard too many times in the last few days, and I'm amazed at how quickly people can revert to childishness just because of one serious disaster. > > Are you pointing out that all people are imperfect? Are you reiterating > > the fact that racism is rampant across the world? Are you suggesting > > that the world is full of insane people? > > That would explain the staff at CNN then. Imperfect, massively racist and > xenophobic and to be quite honest, judging from their reports, completely > and totally insane. I can't agree with you more. > > Basically, I see it this way. Violence is a sign of immaturity. There are > > a LOT of immature people in this world. President Bush appears to be > > intent on proving to the world just how immature the United States is > > by rewarding violence with more violence. I hope the world grows up > > before it destroys itself. Read your history, WW I took far less violence > > than this to start. We're travelling down a familiar road right now, and > > the street signs say WW III. > > Aginst whom? You see, that's the problem here. I understand Bush hasn't > been in office long and his IQ is pretty low, but somebody needs to point > out that although 'wars' can make you look popular, when you're declaring > one, you kind of need to define who you are fighting. You know, like a > country or a name or something. Rather than just 'people who don't like the > USA'. And before you say 'bin Laden', can I just point out that all > evidence suggesting it was him behind this is purely circumstantial and the > CIA and FBI would *really* like to get their hands on him so will say > ANYTHING if it means they get a chance to kick his butt. Perhaps even lie > about their intelligence. I would suggest reviewing your history. Nobody was sure who assisinated the Archduke of Austria, and yet WW I started. Let's take this scenerio: UN: We will support any action the US takes Bush: Country X, we have evidence that the terrorists are in your capital, cooperate with our military to locate them. Country X: We don't know what you're talking about, we don't want your military in our capital. Bush: We declare war on Country X because they're harboring terrorists. UN: We will help the US fight country X if needed Friends of country X: This is nuts! We'll help country X defend themselves Result: WW III Sount crazy? Well, it is. But it's how WW I started. > I seriously doubt it. If the laws were drafted, the simple argument would > be 'how did crypto prevent these men from being detected?' and at this > stage I think they would have a hard problem showing that a law against > crypto would have helped. Strangely enough, terrorists don't seem too > concerned about breaking the law, and I'm sure they wouldn't too bothered > about using crypto in their target country if it was illegal. Maybe the law > will get drafted, but it will a stupid one, and one that I think most > people would just ignore. I think the most important thing here is for folks like us to stay alert and fight against any legislation should it start to follow those lines. -Bill -- Bill Moran Potential Technology technical services (412) 793-4257 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 3:41: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.the-i-pa.com (mail.the-i-pa.com [151.201.71.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D662437B409 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 99648 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2001 10:50:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy.the-i-pa.com) (151.201.71.210) by mail.the-i-pa.com with SMTP; 13 Sep 2001 10:50:56 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Bill Moran Organization: Potential Technology To: Kris Kennaway , Brett Glass Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 06:43:55 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> In-Reply-To: <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091306435501.11655@proxy.the-i-pa.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday 13 September 2001 01:54, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:42:30PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 05:51 PM 9/12/2001, Bill Moran wrote: > > >On a more FreeBSD related note, do you think this will provoke the US > > >government to create restrictions hurtful to the free software > > > community? > > > > I certainly hope not! It would help, of course, if people such as Richard > > Stallman did not promote spiteful agendas which have the same ring to > > them as those of the terrorists who precipitated this horrible attack. > > Stallman, like the Islamic fundamentalists who did this terrible thing, > > promotes an extremist ideology which demonizes others, seeks to destroy > > them, and is motivated by spite and malice. Thank Heaven that Stallman > > does not threaten to blow up buildings, and that most advocates of freely > > redistributable software are more sensible than he. BSD has the right > > attitude. > > Brett, this email was low even for you. You should be thoroughly > ashamed of what you just wrote here. > Kris Personally, I'm mostly on Brett's side. I think Stallman has a tendency to go to extremes. If he had his way, nobody would be able to write proprietary software - it would be illegal. I think that's an extreme viewpoint. I think that there's room in the world for lots of different licensing models. Hell, if I properly understand what I've read from Stallman, he'd outlaw the BSD license if he could. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this. -- Bill Moran To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 4:27: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10AEF37B409 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 04:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24212; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:26:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Bill Moran Cc: Paul Robinson , Milo Hyson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <20010913102807.A369@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <01091306401000.11655@proxy.the-i-pa.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Sep 2001 13:26:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: <01091306401000.11655@proxy.the-i-pa.com> Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran writes: > I would suggest reviewing your history. Nobody was sure who assisinated > the Archduke of Austria, and yet WW I started. Although I agree with your point, I'd say you're the one who needs to review your history; Duke Ferdinand's murderer, Gavrilo Princip, was apprehended on the scene, and turned out to be a South Slav student acting (as far as can be determined) on his own initiative. That said, Ferdinand's death had no real significance in and of itself, but served only as a (semi-)plausible excuse for Austria- Hungary to declare war on Serbia. The ultimatum that Serbia was given in late July was only a formality; it was intended to be rejected, and was indeed promptly rejected, but it did play a significant part in that it ruined the element of surprise from which Austria-Hungary might have benefited. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 7:29:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17CC237B40E for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.137.158.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.137.158]) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02905; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA0C21C.8F32EFA5@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:26:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran Cc: Milo Hyson , Help Victims , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran wrote: > Basically, I see it this way. Violence is a sign of immaturity. There are > a LOT of immature people in this world. President Bush appears to be > intent on proving to the world just how immature the United States is > by rewarding violence with more violence. I hope the world grows up > before it destroys itself. Read your history, WW I took far less violence > than this to start. We're travelling down a familiar road right now, and the > street signs say WW III. The parallels with WW I and WW II (the events with the Archiduke Ferdinand as the target of an assinations are certianly the more apt parallel) are hardly comparable; the Japanese attack on Perl Harbor is a much more apt analogy (note: the Japanese lost many people in the events in New York, as well; potentially in the hundreds -- as did Australia, the U.K., and other countries; this was not technically an attack on the U.S. alone). I rather expect that death is the only thing that can be an adequate barrier for the protection of the general population from people who are willing to die for their political beliefs. The question then becomes not whether death will be the basis for the resolution of such a political conflict, but rather whether it will be yours, or that of your opponents. If we "permit" them to die for those beliefs in a way controlled by us, rather than by them, the amount of damage they inflict on society can be minimized. In the end, it comes down to the killing of human beings as a great wrong, and whether or not one's actions can remove one from the set of human beings. > On a more FreeBSD related note, do you think this will provoke the US > government to create restrictions hurtful to the free software community? > Such as crypto restrictions, or new laws allowing the government to invade > our privacy as we use the internet? All in the name of "protecting the > country from possible terrorist threats?" Could pgp be outlawed? This will certainly depend on the eventual identity of the perpetrators, who as yet remain incompletely identified. For example only, Osama bin Ladden's organization is well known to have used stegnographic techniques to encrypt data sent to operatives in cells in the U.S. in the past. At this point, that means that traffic monitoring may become a priority, and the issue will not be one of ITAR restrictons, so much as it will be one of reducing chaff that needs to be decoded so that undesirable payloads can be easily sorted from the rest of the data. There is already considerable backlash against the U.S. and other Intelligence communities over "why didn't you see this coming and warn us?!?" -- an attitude coolly at odds with the uproar over the "black budget" National Satellite Reconnisance Center over a year agao, when their billion dollar plus building and installation were discovered by an oversight committee and used to make political hay. I generally expect that we will end up with onerous restrictions on air travel, including things designed to appease the public with the idea that air travel is now safer than it was previously, due to those onerous restrictions. This may include things which are actually safety downgrades, such as physically seperating the pilot and passenger cabins, so that it's impossible for the flight crew to come into physical contact with passengers (or to, for example, help extinguish fires in the main cabin). It may just mean armed air marshalls on every flight, from whom guns can be obtained by force. I also suspect that we will see the general installation of face recognition cameras and software in all major transportation hubs, with the recent events as justification, even though we do not have pictures of most of the men, even after that fact, from which such software would be capable of extracting matches. We already know that "level 4 security" minimally involves limiting carry on luggage -- including prohibitions on women's purses. So I really expect us to have a considerable invasion of privacy "for our protection", with no real tactical or strategic value (or protection) actually coming from such an invasion. David Brin predicted this in his book "Transparent Society" (of course; just as G. Harry Stine predicted the reaction to the Challenger disaster, and Tom Clancy's novel about the disaffected Japanese Commercial airline pilot crashing a plane into a joint session of Congress parallel's Tuesdays events). The major impact I see on the software front is that government agencies are bound to attempt to delay deployment of IPSEC in Microsoft products, which will in turn delay its deployment in the Internet, since until Microsoft supports it by default, no one will rely on it in place of SSL in order to achieve secure connections for the purposes of commerce (this on top of the already existing handicap of being insufficiently assymetric, relative to SSL, with regards to automatic key negotiation). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 7:35: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B636F37B40A for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.137.158.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.137.158]) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29809; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA0C41C.ECC22C5A@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:35:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran Cc: Milo Hyson , Help Victims , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <01091221054200.11412@proxy.the-i-pa.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran wrote: > > A smarter move would be to actually support open-source in a way similar to > > the European Comission's plan of declaring closed-source to be the > > least-reliable type of software. This idea stems from the fact that with a > > closed-source product, one has to take the manufacturer's word as to it's > > stability, reliability and performance. With open-source, everyone can see > > what makes it tick and what makes it crap-out. > > I heard that some place in South America was getting ready to pass some > laws or something to this effect. This is an excellent move on the part > of a country, if you ask me. I don't think you people realize why the RSA patent was issued in the first place, opening the Pandora's box of software patents of algorithms as "processes", nor what a single corporate chokepoint actually means to a nation's ability to control wide deployment of new technologies which are considered to not currently be in the overall national interest of that nation. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 7:52: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3DB37B40D for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.137.158.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.137.158]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08657; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA0C831.CA870AB6@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:52:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913021952.045974f0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Tomorrow, I will be attending, and helping to run, a protest against > hate. All kinds of hate. I campaigned long and hard for Cyber Patrol to include any orgranizations that actually used its products in their "intolerance" list. For some reason, they kept attempting to sweep the idea under the rug: that an organizations intolerance for intolerant organizations made _them_ an intolerant organization. I guess it invalidated the idea that Political Correctness was sane... "I hate all bigoted people!" - Alan Sherman -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 8: 9:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3DC37B409 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29596; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:09:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913090507.058a9a20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:09:04 -0600 To: Paul Robinson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010913102807.A369@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:28 AM 9/13/2001, Paul Robinson wrote: >I think his point is that perhaps America should sit down and think about her >actions, and WHY this happened. These guys had a reason for doing what they >did, and I'm suprised nobody, anywhere, seems to want to discuss what that >might have been. They had a MOTIVATION, yes. But I don't think there was much "reason" involved. Before we attack Islam specificially, though, we must remember that there's another precedent for this sort of religiously motivated attack: the Crusades. (As you may recall, the Catholic Church offered participants in this "holy war" a free ticket to haven.) The "jihaad meme" is dangerous regardless of which religion uses it -- precisely BECAUSE it motivates people to hate others and attack them irrationally. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 8:50:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E1E937B412 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.137.158.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.137.158]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8DFoMf14239; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA0D5EB.6C392A5@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:51:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson Cc: Bill Moran , Milo Hyson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <20010913102807.A369@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson wrote: > I think his point is that perhaps America should sit down and > think about her actions, and WHY this happened. These guys had > a reason for doing what they did, and I'm suprised nobody, > anywhere, seems to want to discuss what that might have been. > It just seems easier to call them cowards and paste over the > issue. I think the general consensus of the American public is that we don't really give a rats ass about their _excuse_, since their actions were militarily unjustifiable, having been carried out against predominantly civilian targets. I also think that "America" is not some singular entity that can be attacked or "punished" for perceived transgressions by external agencies who have so little support for their views that they have been unable to form or take over a government sufficiently for them to be able to officially declare war and be taken seriously, rather than resorting to terrorist attacks. I expect that you will justify this somehow, though, just like the people who got upset over the unfortunate events in China, where one tenth of one percent of the Chinese population decided their government needed changing, and didn't realize that the proportional equivalent for the U.S. was the 250,000 person population of Brigham City, Utah wanting to replace the entire U.S. Government. These people are a minority, and while it may piss them off to not be able to dictate policy to the larger society, that's no justification for terrorist acts. I also think that if it was their intent for us to "think about their cause of action", they've done a piss-poor job of it, starting with them not claiming credit or voicing their agenda which they expected to achieve by the act. Finally, I think that a lot of people believe that the "reason" for the attack was "our failure in not preemptively reducing them to their constituent atoms before they could act". It will be a long time before that opinion will change (if ever). A lot of people are (rightly) pissed off over the events. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 12:38:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85BC37B414 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA26186; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:38:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Bill Moran , Milo Hyson , Help Victims , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <3BA0C21C.8F32EFA5@mindspring.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Sep 2001 21:38:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3BA0C21C.8F32EFA5@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > For example only, Osama bin Ladden's organization is well known > to have used stegnographic techniques to encrypt data sent to > operatives in cells in the U.S. in the past. At this point, > that means that traffic monitoring may become a priority, and > the issue will not be one of ITAR restrictons, so much as it > will be one of reducing chaff that needs to be decoded so that > undesirable payloads can be easily sorted from the rest of the > data. Funny - everybody in the know who's being interviewed on TV is calling this a failure of *human* intelligence , not of signals intelligence. But I expect Terry knows best :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 12:54:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-94-248-46.mmcable.com [24.94.248.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D4C1B37B406 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 87568 invoked by uid 100); 13 Sep 2001 19:54:51 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15265.3851.444194.475923@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:54:51 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913023437.045fae70@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913021952.045974f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913023437.045fae70@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > But I don't have time to participate in a long, drawn-out flamefest, Good. I'll just make my point, and we can both agree to stop, right? > nor do the people who read this list want to read one, I'm sure. > Again, the point of my original message -- which I think (no, KNOW) > is quite valid and germane -- is that mindless, ideological hatred > is a danger. The most blatant example of mindless ideological hatred I've run into recently are attacks on GNU, coupled with personal venomous attacks on RMS. To use the same - truly ugly - analogy, if RMS is a mindless terrorist attacking innocent civilians, then Brett is a right-wing fanatic advocating nuking the suspects in retaliation. Bill Moran has it right - there's room for all kinds of licensing models. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 13: 5: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enigma.jaded.net (enigma.jaded.net [216.94.132.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFE437B408 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spirit.jaded.net (unknown [24.141.6.76]) by enigma.jaded.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE64466B16 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.11.6/8.11.4) id f8DK5bE09947 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:05:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dan) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:05:37 -0400 From: Dan Moschuk To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: cvsup.ca.freebsd.org back Message-ID: <20010913160537.A9930@spirit.jaded.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org cvsup.ca.freebsd.org has been updated to the fixed version of cvsupd. Sorry for the delay. -Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 13:32: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B56037B401 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (relay2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3-2) with ESMTP id f8DKW2c12270; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:32:02 +0200 (MEST) Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3/5) with ESMTP id f8DKW2u12266; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:32:02 +0200 (MEST) Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.148]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07092; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:32:00 +0200 Received: (from alex@localhost) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f8DKWIc72516; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:32:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:32:14 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Julian Elischer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Rocky and commitlogs (was: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pccard pccard.c pcic.c pcic_pci.c pcicvar.h Message-ID: <20010913223214.A72484@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , Julian Elischer , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <200109130826.f8D8QtY18779@freefall.freebsd.org> <1121080000.1000369966@lobster.originative.co.uk> <20010913033008.A7016@dragon.nuxi.com> <1164990000.1000377601@lobster.originative.co.uk> <20010913035412.B7016@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010913130842.A70762@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> <3BA0E2DD.9AFD67DB@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BA0E2DD.9AFD67DB@elischer.org>; from julian@elischer.org on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:46:21AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Julian Elischer (julian@elischer.org): > that was certainly shown in Australia as well, where I saw it.. > there is a good ascii-art picture of them somewhere.. > BullWinkle (who is speaking) never succeeds in pulling a rabbit out of his hat, > but its always "This time, for sure!" > Rocky, never believes him.. Hah! Great stuff (and it fits VERY well to the commitlog!) Thanks for the explanation. Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 17: 1:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lab.cyberlifelabs.com (lab.cyberlifelabs.com [208.201.255.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D3F8237B409 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22054 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2001 00:01:41 -0000 Received: from linny.lab.cyberlifelabs.com (HELO there) (208.201.255.8) by lab.cyberlifelabs.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 2001 00:01:41 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Milo Hyson To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Paul Robinson Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:01:40 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] Cc: Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010913102807.A369@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BA0D5EB.6C392A5@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3BA0D5EB.6C392A5@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20010914000143.D3F8237B409@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday 13 September 2001 08:51 am, Terry Lambert wrote: > I think the general consensus of the American public is that > we don't really give a rats ass about their _excuse_, since > their actions were militarily unjustifiable, having been carried > out against predominantly civilian targets. I would have to agree here. Most Americans don't really care about the other side of things. The last person anybody ever blames is themselves. It's always somebody else's fault. If you stub your toe on a table leg, you get angry and yell at the desk. "Ow! God damnit, piece of shit." You never think to yourself, "We'll that was stupid of me. I should have been more careful where I was walking." One of the things I leared in my school years is that people in this country are not encouraged to know the reasons behind things. We're taught procedures and conventions and told this is the way things are done. We're not taught the reasons why nor are we encouraged to find out or, heaven forbid, figure out a different way. I encounter this on a daily basis. I'm a research scientist, so my job is asking why. I get paid to turn things upside down and backwards and figure out if the way things are being done is the best way possible. Most of the people I encounter in life could care less about such things. They're happy to blindly follow procedures and conventions, even when they cause inconvinence and discomfort, because it's easier than stepping back and asking, "Isn't there some other way?" I have to be fair though. There are times when people do want to know the reasons behind things ... when things go wrong. If there's a car accident, they want to know why. If terrorists attack the US, they want to know why. However, they're rarely equitable about it. They always seem to have some pre-conceived notions they use to discount certain theories, generally because they find those theories uncomfortable and don't want them to be true. Your son falls off the bleachers at school, breaks his neck and dies. What do you do? Sue the school. The bleachers are unsafe. Never mind the fact that your son thought he was superman and tried to fly across the schoolyard. After all, he's just a kid. All of this may simply be human nature, but that still doesn't justify it. We have the capability to be better, to think before we act, to step back and realize what effects our procedures and conventions have on the world. -- Milo Hyson CyberLife Labs, LLC "Everyone wants a better world, as long as someone else does the dirty work." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 17: 8:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754A837B408 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smui01.slb.mindspring.net (smui01.slb.mindspring.net [199.174.114.21]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA31358; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:08:02 -0400 (EDT) From: 1908@pipeline.com Received: by smui01.slb.mindspring.net id UAA0000009179; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:08:01 -0400 To: Milo Hyson Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Paul Robinson , Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: 199.174.119.5 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What if someone picked up a table and threw it at your toe? Would a research scientist in the middle of the woods ask "why?" Milo Hyson wrote: > On Thursday 13 September 2001 08:51 am, Terry Lambert wrote: > I think the general consensus of the American public is that > we don't really give a rats ass about their _excuse_, since > their actions were militarily unjustifiable, having been carried > out against predominantly civilian targets. I would have to agree here. Most Americans don't really care about the other side of things. The last person anybody ever blames is themselves. It's always somebody else's fault. If you stub your toe on a table leg, you get angry and yell at the desk. "Ow! God damnit, piece of shit." You never think to yourself, "We'll that was stupid of me. I should have been more careful where I was walking." One of the things I leared in my school years is that people in this country are not encouraged to know the reasons behind things. We're taught procedures and conventions and told this is the way things are done. We're not taught the reasons why nor are we encouraged to find out or, heaven forbid, figure out a different way. I encounter this on a daily basis. I'm a research scientist, so my job is asking why. I get paid to turn things upside down and backwards and figure out if the way things are being done is the best way possible. Most of the people I encounter in life could care less about such things. They're happy to blindly follow procedures and conventions, even when they cause inconvinence and discomfort, because it's easier than stepping back and asking, "Isn't there some other way?" I have to be fair though. There are times when people do want to know the reasons behind things ... when things go wrong. If there's a car accident, they want to know why. If terrorists attack the US, they want to know why. However, they're rarely equitable about it. They always seem to have some pre-conceived notions they use to discount certain theories, generally because they find those theories uncomfortable and don't want them to be true. Your son falls off the bleachers at school, breaks his neck and dies. What do you do? Sue the school. The bleachers are unsafe. Never mind the fact that your son thought he was superman and tried to fly across the schoolyard. After all, he's just a kid. All of this may simply be human nature, but that still doesn't justify it. We have the capability to be better, to think before we act, to step back and realize what effects our procedures and conventions have on the world. -- Milo Hyson CyberLife Labs, LLC "Everyone wants a better world, as long as someone else does the dirty work." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 17:59:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C0D37B418 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07845; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:59:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913185102.0497c9e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:59:09 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <15265.3851.444194.475923@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913023437.045fae70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913021952.045974f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913023437.045fae70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:54 PM 9/13/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Good. I'll just make my point, and we can both agree to stop, right? Mike, somehow, I knew that you couldn't resist any possible opportunity to launch a nasty, vindictive attack in my direction. >The most blatant example of mindless ideological hatred I've run into >recently are attacks on GNU, coupled with personal venomous attacks on >RMS. Dead wrong, Mike. My warnings about RMS and the GPL are warnings ABOUT his mindless ideological hatred and that of his followers. >To use the same - truly ugly - analogy, if RMS is a mindless >terrorist attacking innocent civilians, then Brett is a right-wing >fanatic advocating nuking the suspects in retaliation. Your analogy is not at all valid. I am not jingoistic, as RMS is; nor would I advocate "nuking" him. I have merely pointed out his destructive agenda and its potential effects, just as I would speak out about any form of hateful fanatacisim. (It might also be worthwhile to point out the similarity between RMS' methods and those of many terrorists; by distributing the effort, he hopes to make it difficult to stop.) Alas, you appear to be one of RMS' fanatical sympathizers. Your messages to and about me are hateful, and your attacks on me are as unjustified as RMS's wanton attacks on all professional programmers. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 19:10:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A3C137B410 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsd.havk.org (user-24-214-56-224.knology.net [24.214.56.224]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8E2Aam23929 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:10:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: by bsd.havk.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D6F901A7D8; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:10:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:10:31 -0500 From: Steve Price To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: AX.25 implementations for FreeBSD Message-ID: <20010913211031.W32840@bsd.havk.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know of any AX.25 implementations that aren't inexorably tied to Linux? I found an early implementation for a PMP KISS-mode program here but it is DOS-centric. http://www.dougbraun.com/evm.html There's bound to be an implementation for FreeBSD. No? Does anyone know of any resources are for a wannabe Ham that wants to use FreeBSD instead of Linux? Thanks. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 21:59:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.jodeit.com (mail.jodeit.com [207.10.131.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF82437B40F for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gdennyj [207.10.131.111] by mail.jodeit.com (SMTPD32-6.06) id ACEA4080116; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:51:54 -0400 Message-ID: <011401c13cda$da544f20$6f830acf@gdennyj> From: "Denny Jodeit" To: References: Subject: Re: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:05:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Milo, I think it's fair to say that you evidently didn't lose a child, wife/husband, mom/dad, cousin, aunt/uncle, or even an acquaintance in this vicious, cowardly attack. Thank God, neither did I. But if you were in the room with me right know and spoke those words that you emailed to this list, I'm pretty sure I'd slug you in the mouth. 18 or so fanatics calculated that 4 jets, filled with the most fuel possible, would really screw some shit up. And I'll assume they did more damage than they thought they would. They directly and actively killed moms, dads, sons, daughters, friends, and so on, while they checked their email, drank their morning coffee, started their daily tasks. These people had no guns, no way to defend themselves. These people had nothing to do with supposed American oppression. Blame ? Get real. As a scientist, you have a really shitty grasp of reality. ----- Original Message ----- From: <1908@pipeline.com> To: "Milo Hyson" Cc: ; "Paul Robinson" ; "Bill Moran" ; Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Re: Helping victims of terror > What if someone picked up a table and threw it at your toe? Would a research scientist in the middle of the woods ask "why?" > > > Milo Hyson wrote: > > On Thursday 13 September 2001 08:51 am, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I think the general consensus of the American public is that > > we don't really give a rats ass about their _excuse_, since > > their actions were militarily unjustifiable, having been carried > > out against predominantly civilian targets. > > I would have to agree here. Most Americans don't really care about the other > side of things. The last person anybody ever blames is themselves. It's > always somebody else's fault. If you stub your toe on a table leg, you get > angry and yell at the desk. "Ow! God damnit, piece of shit." You never think > to yourself, "We'll that was stupid of me. I should have been more careful > where I was walking." > > One of the things I leared in my school years is that people in this country > are not encouraged to know the reasons behind things. We're taught procedures > and conventions and told this is the way things are done. We're not taught > the reasons why nor are we encouraged to find out or, heaven forbid, figure > out a different way. > > I encounter this on a daily basis. I'm a research scientist, so my job is > asking why. I get paid to turn things upside down and backwards and figure > out if the way things are being done is the best way possible. Most of the > people I encounter in life could care less about such things. They're happy > to blindly follow procedures and conventions, even when they cause > inconvinence and discomfort, because it's easier than stepping back and > asking, "Isn't there some other way?" > > I have to be fair though. There are times when people do want to know the > reasons behind things ... when things go wrong. If there's a car accident, > they want to know why. If terrorists attack the US, they want to know why. > However, they're rarely equitable about it. They always seem to have some > pre-conceived notions they use to discount certain theories, generally > because they find those theories uncomfortable and don't want them to be true. > > Your son falls off the bleachers at school, breaks his neck and dies. What do > you do? Sue the school. The bleachers are unsafe. Never mind the fact that > your son thought he was superman and tried to fly across the schoolyard. > After all, he's just a kid. > > All of this may simply be human nature, but that still doesn't justify it. We > have the capability to be better, to think before we act, to step back and > realize what effects our procedures and conventions have on the world. > > -- > Milo Hyson > CyberLife Labs, LLC > > "Everyone wants a better world, as long as someone else does the dirty work." > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 13 23:23:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-6.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD5C37B406 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BC10D66D0A; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:23:34 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: [rah@shipwright.com: New York Red Cross Needs Tech Help] Message-ID: <20010913232333.A45732@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Forwarded message from "R. A. Hettinga" ----- Delivered-To: kkenn@localhost.obsecurity.org Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:19:55 -0400 From: "R. A. Hettinga" Subject: New York Red Cross Needs Tech Help X-Sender: rahettinga@earthlink.net To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu, Digital Bearer Settlement List , cryptography@wasabisystems.com Precedence: bulk Delivered-to: cryptography-outgoing@wasabisystems.com Delivered-to: cryptography@wasabisystems.com --- begin forwarded text Status: U Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:13:12 -0700 Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications From: Xeni Jardin Subject: New York Red Cross Needs Tech Help To: CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM forwarded by Xeni Jardin xeni@xeni.net | www.xeni.net | YIM: xeni_jardin ---------------------------------------- http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/showtell/story/0,23008,3347294,00.html New York Red Cross Needs Tech You can help by donating computers, equipment, and services. September 12, 2001 The New York American Red Cross is in dire need of technology equipment and services. The field workers and sites have little, if any, means of communication and the central office is processing way too much on completely paper systems. Your help in acquiring these resources would be greatly appreciated. If you can help, please contact: Joe Leo, Assistant Director, Business Applications, IT American Red Cross in Greater New York phone: 212.875.2409 email: jleo@arcgny.org 150 Amsterdam Avenue New York, NY 10023 PLEASE NOTE: His email is slammed, so don't resend your messages over and over again. Following is the list of equipment that the Red Cross needs for its field workers and expanded Emergency Operations Centers. It also needs certified Citrix engineers and Microsoft-certified consultants. 40 IBM computers and laptops (with NICs) Monitors (with desktops) Any storage solutions 25 10/100 hubs (8+ Ports) 100 Cat5 cables (All lengths) 50 power strips Any IBM-compatible memory Any 3Com wireless NIC cards and LAN products 30 desktop-size UPSs 15 LaserJet printers (HP 1100 or faster) and printer supplies 20 external Zip drives and disks Any diskettes and R/W CDs 5 external CD burners 5 duplex document scanners 25 extension cords any colored tie wraps any Velcro cable wraps 50 Citrix client licenses 12 PCMCIA LAN cards for IBM P20 ThinkPads, preferably 3Com (in addition to those in the new PCs) 50 Microsoft Exchange CALs 35 Microsoft SQL CALs 50 Microsoft Office Professional licenses 15 PC Anywhere licenses DSL lines PDAs with wireless capacity and service Nextel cellphones and service Thanks in advance for your generous assistance. Any donation will help greatly. ********************************************************************** For Listserv Instructions, see http://www.lawlists.net/cyberia Off-Topic threads: http://www.lawlists.net/mailman/listinfo/cyberia-ot Need more help? Send mail to: Cyberia-L-Request@listserv.aol.com ********************************************************************** --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo@wasabisystems.com ----- End forwarded message ----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 1:32:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF8A437B403 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.133.204.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.133.204]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8E8WPf22325; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA1C0C3.11AF172B@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:33:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Bill Moran , Milo Hyson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <3BA0C21C.8F32EFA5@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Funny - everybody in the know who's being interviewed on TV is calling > this a failure of *human* intelligence , not of signals intelligence. > But I expect Terry knows best :) CNN interviewed Clinton's national security advisor, and he stated a fear that this was an issue that people would blame on the intelligence community (no, not just signals intelligence). Later, that same evening, on PBS' "Charlie Rose" (station KQED), guest Tom Clancy (the author of the novel "Debt of Honor", in which a commercial air liner is crashed into a join session of congress), suggested that it would be considered an intelligence community failure, and talked about the number of assets (the term used for infitration or double agents) could be at fault for the failure to predict the event. Then Elizabeth Vargas of ABC news intervied the editor of a London Arabic language news paper, who said that his paper had received a threat of an imminent terrorist act two weeks ago, which was discounted as "not a credible threat". So Dag-Erling may be right, but then Clinton's national security advisor, Tom Clancy, a U.S. Senator (also on "Charlie Rose"), and the editor of the paper that received the threat are all wrong... but I expect Dag-Erling knows best. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 2:17:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606F937B40D for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 02:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.133.204.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.133.204]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA00011; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 02:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA1CB5A.91DDCED3@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 02:18:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Milo Hyson Cc: Paul Robinson , Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010913102807.A369@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BA0D5EB.6C392A5@mindspring.com> <200109132001.tq2i78.re7.37kbi16@payne.mail.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Milo Hyson wrote: > I would have to agree here. Most Americans don't really care about the other > side of things. The last person anybody ever blames is themselves. It's > always somebody else's fault. If you stub your toe on a table leg, you get > angry and yell at the desk. "Ow! God damnit, piece of shit." You never think > to yourself, "We'll that was stupid of me. I should have been more careful > where I was walking." What's the "other side" of murdering 50,000 civilians in New York? You realize that that's around the death toll of the entire Vietnam war, right? I'm all for understanding, but not to the point of the Sabine Women... In general, retribution and revenge are not the same thing; when we punish a criminal, it is not in order to exact revenge, it's as an object lesson to other potential criminals in the larger society. Today, it's common to mistake this punishment for an attempt to reform the criminal, but nothing could be further from the truth: if it were true, and it were a success strategy, the recidivism rate would be lower than the rate of initial commission of crimes. I'm open to suggestions as to how we should go about providing the best possible object lesson for the larger society, without seeming to be attempting to exact revenge, assuming we ever identify an organization or government behind the crime. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 5:55: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7B537B40A for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 05:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010914125504.JHIF18761.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 05:55:04 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010914083459.021914b8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:37:59 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have to agree. This "scientific detachment" that you (Milo Hyson) advocate using here only shows how pitifully removed you are from the human tragedy here, which has elicited an emotional, not a scientific, response from most of us. --Chip Morton At 08:08 PM 9/13/2001, 1908@pipline.com wrote: >What if someone picked up a table and threw it at your toe? Would a >research scientist in the middle of the woods ask "why?" > > >Milo Hyson wrote: >I would have to agree here. Most Americans don't really care about the other >side of things. The last person anybody ever blames is themselves. It's >always somebody else's fault. If you stub your toe on a table leg, you get >angry and yell at the desk. "Ow! God damnit, piece of shit." You never think >to yourself, "We'll that was stupid of me. I should have been more careful >where I was walking." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 5:55:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7113037B406 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 05:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010914125505.JHII18761.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 05:55:05 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010914084435.021cf5e0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:54:57 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <20010913102807.A369@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:28 AM 9/13/2001, Paul Robinson wrote: >On Sep 13, Bill Moran wrote: > > > Basically, I'm confused as to what your point is? > >His point is that there are lots of people trying to start a war with chants >along the lines of 'USA, Number One!', etc. when it's really not required. >His point also, is that whilst people may be disgusted at the actions >carried out (myself included), on the larger scale of things in World >history they are but a mere blip. I'm sure that events like Pearl Harbor and the destruction of the World Trade Center will not be a "blip" on anyone's historical radar. I have no doubt that these events will still be studied/related 100 years from now and that they will certainly have immediate (if not long-term) consequences on the way we conduct ourselves in the name of security in this country. Whether these changes are beneficial or not will be a matter of opinion, but I think it's quite easy to see that the changes will happen. [ Other stuff deleted since it has been responded to adequately. ] > > Basically, I see it this way. Violence is a sign of immaturity. There are > > a LOT of immature people in this world. President Bush appears to be > > intent on proving to the world just how immature the United States is > > by rewarding violence with more violence. I hope the world grows up > > before it destroys itself. Read your history, WW I took far less violence > > than this to start. We're travelling down a familiar road right now, > and the > > street signs say WW III. > >Aginst whom? You see, that's the problem here. I understand Bush hasn't been >in office long and his IQ is pretty low, but somebody needs to point out >that although 'wars' can make you look popular, when you're declaring one, >you kind of need to define who you are fighting. You know, like a country or >a name or something. Rather than just 'people who don't like the USA'. And >before you say 'bin Laden', can I just point out that all evidence >suggesting it was him behind this is purely circumstantial and the CIA and >FBI would *really* like to get their hands on him so will say ANYTHING if it >means they get a chance to kick his butt. Perhaps even lie about their >intelligence. > Frankly I don't see us headed toward WWIII. Quite the opposite, the atrocity of these events has galvanized the world in sympathy with or support of the United States. Most of them have chimed in that they deem any actions we take in retribution justified if they haven't offered direct support. Leaders of countries that have harbored deep resentment against the States for decades or more are sending their condolences and condemning this type of terrorism. Who knows, the world may actually become more unified as leaders worldwide begin to think "Which of us might be next?" And furthermore, bin Laden has been on the FBI's Most Wanted list for some time now. Whether he or his organization was directly involved in these specific events, his previous actions and his insensitive comments supporting the perpetrators of this terrorism have basically marked him well enough for the U.S. to justify going after him. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 6:43:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC70E37B407 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726DE6D9E; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:43:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:43:14 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Terry Lambert Cc: Milo Hyson , Paul Robinson , Bill Moran , Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <3BA1CB5A.91DDCED3@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: :Milo Hyson wrote: :> I would have to agree here. Most Americans don't really care about the other :> side of things. The last person anybody ever blames is themselves. It's :> always somebody else's fault. If you stub your toe on a table leg, you get :> angry and yell at the desk. "Ow! God damnit, piece of shit." You never think :> to yourself, "We'll that was stupid of me. I should have been more careful :> where I was walking." : :What's the "other side" of murdering 50,000 civilians in New York? : :You realize that that's around the death toll of the entire Vietnam :war, right? The American death toll. The Vietnamese toll was much, much higher. : -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 6:52: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BE937B403 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA30333; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:51:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: David Scheidt Cc: Terry Lambert , Milo Hyson , Paul Robinson , Bill Moran , Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Sep 2001 15:51:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt writes: > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > : You realize that that's around the death toll of the entire Vietnam > : war, right? > The American death toll. The Vietnamese toll was much, much higher. This doesn't really matter, since the Vietnam war never took place, as is evident from the following sound bite from a US Senator on CNN two days ago: "Americans have never shrunk from battle, nor have we ever given in, and we will not do so now." It is equally evident that World War II never took place either - in the words of another interviewee: "Something has happened that had never happened before: in one stroke, so many people were killed, all of them innocent" America is in serious need of a lesson in humility and historical perspective, though I concede that this is a horrible way to learn such a lesson, and I would not wish it upon anyone. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 7:24:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA6D37B405 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15httQ-000PBz-00; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:24:32 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15httd-0002jj-00; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:24:45 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:24:45 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: David Scheidt , Terry Lambert , Milo Hyson , Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010914152445.H3356@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 03:51:50PM +0200 X-Scanner: exiscan *15httQ-000PBz-00*$AK$D/mL/URyiQUEjRA0aJEmy.* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sep 14, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Americans have never shrunk from battle, nor have we ever given in, > and we will not do so now." If that isn't hollow rhetoric, I don't know what is... dear, oh dear. You see, this is the problem with people in power. They think they have to fight. If they thought to themselves 'actually, we could just try and talk to the people behind this' then perhaps the world would be a nicer place. But then, I'm only 23 so probably don't 'understand' the world. Ho-hum. > "Something has happened that had never happened before: in one stroke, > so many people were killed, all of them innocent" ROFL. This guy believed what he was saying, right? > America is in serious need of a lesson in humility and historical > perspective, though I concede that this is a horrible way to learn > such a lesson, and I would not wish it upon anyone. Well, first of all, I don't think America does - I think these individuals and those running the media (or at least running the interviews) do. There was some very interesting debating going on last night on a BBC program you may not know - Question Time - regarding these issues and the attitudes 'America' has to 'The World' and 'The World' has to 'America'. I think the problems caused by collective grouping and stereo-typing like that might be something that this event will help make history - the enemy is not 'Muslims' or 'Afghanistan', but rather 20+ people. Many are starting to realise that now. On the 'good' side, it now looks like the original death toll figures were overestimates. The Register is reporting that even though Morgan Stanley had 3,500 employees over 25 floors of the WTC, only 15 are currently missing which is bordering on miraculous. If you consider that out of over 50,000 people less than 5,000 are still missing, AND people are still coming out of there alive, things are starting to look a hell of a lot more miraculous than they did when it first happened. Not much comfort to those whose loved ones are one of the 5,000 still unaccounted for though. -- PR To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 7:36:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A1B37B409 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA30571; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:36:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Paul Robinson Cc: David Scheidt , Terry Lambert , Milo Hyson , Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <20010914152445.H3356@jake.akitanet.co.uk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Sep 2001 16:36:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010914152445.H3356@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson writes: > On the 'good' side, it now looks like the original death toll figures were > overestimates. The Register is reporting that even though Morgan Stanley had > 3,500 employees over 25 floors of the WTC, only 15 are currently missing > which is bordering on miraculous. Yes, Morgan Stanley held a press conference on Wednesday saying just that. I watched part of it live on CNN. Norwegian (and, from what I hear, Swedish) news outlets promptly reported that Morgan Stanley had lost all 2,500 [sic] hands. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 9:46:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1CFF37B406 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dg@localhost) by root.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f8EGP4200731; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:25:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:25:04 -0700 From: David Greenman To: Paul Robinson Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Scheidt , Terry Lambert , Milo Hyson , Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010914092504.A684@nexus.root.com> References: <20010914152445.H3356@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010914152445.H3356@jake.akitanet.co.uk>; from paul@akita.co.uk on Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 03:24:45PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On the 'good' side, it now looks like the original death toll figures were >overestimates. The Register is reporting that even though Morgan Stanley had >3,500 employees over 25 floors of the WTC, only 15 are currently missing >which is bordering on miraculous. If you consider that out of over 50,000 >people less than 5,000 are still missing, AND people are still coming out of >there alive, things are starting to look a hell of a lot more miraculous >than they did when it first happened. Not much comfort to those whose loved >ones are one of the 5,000 still unaccounted for though. Actually, you've got the facts a little wrong. The 5000 number is the number of reported missing, not the number of "unaccounted for". These are very different things - not all people have families or friends who would immediately realize that they are missing. In many cases entire companies were wiped out, so even coworkers wouldn't be able to report missing employees...and then there's all the vistors - perhaps 1/3 of the people in the buildings at the time. This all means that the final number will certainly be higher, and we will never know exactly. -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 10:48:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9554C37B412 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18634; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:48:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010914114627.056ab100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:48:17 -0600 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3BA1CB5A.91DDCED3@mindspring.com> References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010913102807.A369@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BA0D5EB.6C392A5@mindspring.com> <200109132001.tq2i78.re7.37kbi16@payne.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:18 AM 9/14/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >What's the "other side" of murdering 50,000 civilians in New York? It will actually be less than 10,000, a number which is smaller than it could have been but nonetheless horrific. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 10:51:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.the-i-pa.com (mail.the-i-pa.com [151.201.71.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E50AB37B40E for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 13689 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2001 18:01:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sqltest) (151.201.71.153) by mail.the-i-pa.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 2001 18:01:56 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Bill Moran To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:45:20 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <20010914152445.H3356@jake.akitanet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20010914152445.H3356@jake.akitanet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091417452001.15691@sqltest> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday 14 September 2001 14:24, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Sep 14, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > "Americans have never shrunk from battle, nor have we ever given in, > > and we will not do so now." > > If that isn't hollow rhetoric, I don't know what is... dear, oh dear. You > see, this is the problem with people in power. They think they have to > fight. If they thought to themselves 'actually, we could just try and talk > to the people behind this' then perhaps the world would be a nicer place. > But then, I'm only 23 so probably don't 'understand' the world. Ho-hum. Unfortunately, no you don't. Simple fact is, there ARE a small percentage of people that are so wacko that you simply can NOT reason with them. I knew a fellow in West Virginia who was racist that I tried to straighten out. It was impossible. Over a period of several months and countless conversations, he held his racist ground. Facts and reality seem to elude people like this, and when you've got someone who feels this way about killing people, you've got someone that will organized an attack like we had Tuesday. On a related note, I was discussing this with a friend yesterday. If any of the information I present here is wrong, I'd appreciate corrections: Apparently this Ladden guy was a top official in the Saudi government not that long ago. Unfortunately, the Saudi government had to kick him out because Saudi Arabia (as a whole) was pursuing a more peaceful stance with the rest of the world, and Ladden just wouldn't play along. Now he's a refugee training terrorists, whereas he was controlling armies not that long ago. If this information is correct, then the most important thing is that the US policy toward the middle east needs to change as little as possible - because it was WORKING! Crazed lunitics are being forced out of governments and are resorting to terrorism to get their "fix" On the other hand, we need to beef up our resistance to future attacks like this, because as more and more nations become peaceful, more and more lunitics will be forced out of government and end up training terrorists. Any thoughts on this theory? -Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 10:58:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B5137B407 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.141.144.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.141.144]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09264; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA2454E.AB05D0D0@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:58:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: David Scheidt , Milo Hyson , Paul Robinson , Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > America is in serious need of a lesson in humility and historical > perspective, though I concede that this is a horrible way to learn > such a lesson, and I would not wish it upon anyone. The U.S. doesn't do "humble" when its ire is aroused -- it does "scortched earth". All continuing acts of terrorism will do is really, really make us angry. You wouldn't like us when we are _truly_ angry. We do things like "The Manhattan Project", and we have learned an incredible amount since the end of WW II, 55 years ago; that's over half a century. Right now, the U.S. is what I'd call "mildly annoyed", compared to where it could be. Last night at the BAFUG user group meeting, we discussed several of the possible reactions the U.S. might engage in, as a result of being driven by public opinion. Nuclear weapon drops on Kabul are not at all scary in comparison to some of the options. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 11:14: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A8EF37B413 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.141.144.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.141.144]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12081; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA24902.3F8E1F46@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:14:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010913102807.A369@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BA0D5EB.6C392A5@mindspring.com> <200109132001.tq2i78.re7.37kbi16@payne.mail.mindspring.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010914114627.056ab100@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >What's the "other side" of murdering 50,000 civilians in New York? > > It will actually be less than 10,000, a number which is smaller than > it could have been but nonetheless horrific. I think that the number is higher, but we can take your 10,000 number, and put it in perspective: o That's 1 in every 25,000 people in the country, dead. o If it's really 50,000, then that's 1 in every 5000 people in the country, dead. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 11:23:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 364E637B406 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19096; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:23:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010914122025.046e7c40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:22:11 -0600 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3BA24902.3F8E1F46@mindspring.com> References: <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <20010913102807.A369@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <3BA0D5EB.6C392A5@mindspring.com> <200109132001.tq2i78.re7.37kbi16@payne.mail.mindspring.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010914114627.056ab100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:14 PM 9/14/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >I think that the number is higher, but we can take your 10,000 >number, and put it in perspective: I can put it in perspective very well. I live in a town with a total population of 26,000. That's less than the number of people who were present in the WTC when the planes hit. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 11:54:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.lordlegacy.org (lordlegacy.org [209.61.182.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B15637B410 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sharon ([216.13.207.127]) by server1.lordlegacy.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA05933 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:05:25 -0500 From: "Stephen Hurd" To: Subject: RE: Helping victims of terror Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:04:22 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20010914122025.046e7c40@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >I think that the number is higher, but we can take your 10,000 > >number, and put it in perspective: > > I can put it in perspective very well. I live in a town with a > total population of 26,000. That's less than the number of people > who were present in the WTC when the planes hit. Hmmm... and I live in a town with 500 people... an interesting perspective would be to compare it to the number of people who have died in terrorist attacks in foreign countries in the last 10 years. Terrorism isn't new, it's just new to you (and us... it affects us a lot too)... the new thing is that they've gone and done it against people who are in a good position to "bring them to justice" personally I want to make them pay, but heck, the justice in this situation works out the same way, so all is good. As to the people who say things like "you just have to understand where they're coming from" the problem with that theory is that "they" haven't told us, "they" have made no announcements as to any reasoning behind the attack. "they" have struck for two reasons only... jealousy and anger. Had they attacked only the pentagon and say a few naval, air force, and army bases, I may be able to stand back and say "they" may be justified. The closest understanding I can reach with this is that they attempted to do the same thing as Hiroshima/Nagasaki... ie: Kill a bunch of civilians to save years of war and MANY soldiers lives. That anaology breaks down in a couple of places (but not as many as you think at first), but I can at least to some degree understand it in that context. I still don't agree with it... and if it's war they want, I say let's give it to them... but I'd like to think that we can give it ONLY to them... or at least do our darndest to try. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 12:24:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-94-248-46.mmcable.com [24.94.248.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3652337B40F for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 32304 invoked by uid 100); 14 Sep 2001 19:24:05 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15266.22869.722204.601040@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:24:05 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913185102.0497c9e0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913023437.045fae70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913021952.045974f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913185102.0497c9e0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > Mike, somehow, I knew that you couldn't resist any possible > opportunity to launch a nasty, vindictive attack in my direction. No, I resisted the obvious first opportunity, and didn't compare you to the terrorists when I first posted on the subject. I even resisted the next three or four opportunities as you drew that comparison. But as you kept on shouting out your hatred while at the same time hypocritically stating that such hatred is bad, it kept getting harder and harder to resist pointing out that what you were spouting was indeed hatred I will agree that mine was a nasty, vindictive attack. On the other hand, what you do not see is that your attack on RMS was at least as nasty and vindictive. They are, essentially, the same attack - comparing someone to a lunatic with no regard for human life. You are doing what I predicted anyone with an agenda would do, and trying to use the emotional energy generated by this disaster to help forward your own agenda. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 12:44:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from coveryourbases.com (216-21-141-240.ip.van.radiant.net [216.21.141.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4590A37B413 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.teddybearden.com by coveryourbases.com with SMTP (MDaemon.v3.5.7.R) for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:44:29 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org From: "The Teddy Bears Den www.teddybearsden.com" Date: Thu, 14 Sep 100 12:47:03 -0700 Subject: Free Teddy Screen Saver at the Teddy Bears Den X-Mailer: mail.teddybearden.com X-Return-Path: info@teddybearden.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: info@teddybearden.com Message-ID: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello from the Teddy Bears Den, We were just writing to tell you about our free Teddy Bear Screen Saver. You can download it at: http://www.teddybearsden.com/screensaver/installden.exe or just visit our site to learn more about the art of making your own bears. We hope this email wasn't an inconvenience. Thanks... the bear team. A home for bearaholics everywhere. www.teddybearsden.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 12:59:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE32337B410 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 82102 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2001 19:59:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Sep 2001 19:59:07 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:59:00 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Stephen Hurd Subject: RE: Helping victims of terror Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-Sep-01 Stephen Hurd wrote: >> >I think that the number is higher, but we can take your 10,000 >> >number, and put it in perspective: >> >> I can put it in perspective very well. I live in a town with a >> total population of 26,000. That's less than the number of people >> who were present in the WTC when the planes hit. > > I still don't agree with it... and if it's war they want, I say let's give it > to them... but I'd like to think that we can give it ONLY to them... or at > least do our darndest to try. Boy, I had promised myself to categorically ignore all discussions on this, but here's my viewpoint at least: I think that what they want is war, they want to die a martyr's death and stir up more anti-US sentiment. Aside from any governments involved, if an indivudal such as Bin Laden is involved, I think the best thing to be done is to not kill him, but bring him to a war-cries trial where he is condemned by the entire world for his actions so that he ends up not being a martyr but a criminal. In that instance he would still need punishment. If indeed he is responsible, I don't think he will stop. It's kind of like a child who will keep pushing against the parents to find out where the limit is that they get punished to see how much they can get away with. If you follow the escalations of USS Cole -> Embassy bombings -> WTC you can see a similar type of progression. That's my $.02 anyways. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 13:10:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B358D37B406 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20452; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:10:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010914140905.056f4340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:10:03 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <15266.22869.722204.601040@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913185102.0497c9e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913023437.045fae70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913021952.045974f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913185102.0497c9e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:24 PM 9/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >But as you kept on shouting out your hatred It is you, Mike, who are shouting out hatred. I am condemning it. >I will agree that mine was a nasty, vindictive attack. Then stop. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 13:35:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lab.cyberlifelabs.com (lab.cyberlifelabs.com [208.201.255.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 95BE037B407 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24364 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2001 20:35:53 -0000 Received: from linny.lab.cyberlifelabs.com (HELO there) (208.201.255.8) by lab.cyberlifelabs.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 2001 20:35:53 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Milo Hyson To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:35:53 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] Cc: David Scheidt , Paul Robinson , Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3BA2454E.AB05D0D0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3BA2454E.AB05D0D0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20010914203554.95BE037B407@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday 14 September 2001 10:58 am, Terry Lambert wrote: > The U.S. doesn't do "humble" when its ire is aroused -- it > does "scortched earth". Well then, I guess we will be unable to achieve Bush's goal of ridding the world of evil. He who scorches the Earth can hardly be considered a saint. -- Milo Hyson CyberLife Labs, LLC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 15: 6: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CA037B403 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA32249; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:06:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Bill Moran Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: <20010914152445.H3356@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <01091417452001.15691@sqltest> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Sep 2001 00:05:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: <01091417452001.15691@sqltest> Message-ID: Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran writes: > Apparently this Ladden guy was a top official in the Saudi government not > that long ago. Unfortunately, the Saudi government had to kick him out > because Saudi Arabia (as a whole) was pursuing a more peaceful stance > with the rest of the world, and Ladden just wouldn't play along. Now he's > a refugee training terrorists, whereas he was controlling armies not that > long ago. Bollocks. You need to check your facts more carefully. Firstly, his name is Usama bin Laden, not "this Ladden guy"; secondly, he's never held a government office, and has in fact been stripped of his Saudi citizenship. The only armies he's ever controlled were US-funded, US-equipped and US-trained Afghan guerillas during the occupation of Afghanistan by the USSR: he left Saudi Arabia for Afghanistan shortly after the Soviet invasion and fought with the Mujahedeen, and organized transportation and training for (non-Afghan) Moslems who wished to fight against the USSR in Afghanistan. He returned to Saudi Arabia in the late eighties but fled the country when the Saudi authorities tried to apprehend him for supporting fundamental groups actioning against moderate Islamic governments. He later turned all his energy and his considerable resources against the USA out of (apparently) a sense of outrage at the shameful violation of Saudi soil by US troops during and after the Gulf War. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 15:18:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E52637B401 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA32290; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:18:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Stephen Hurd" Cc: Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Sep 2001 00:18:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Stephen Hurd" writes: > The closest understanding I can reach with this is that they > attempted to do the same thing as Hiroshima/Nagasaki... ie: Kill a > bunch of civilians to save years of war and MANY soldiers lives. > That anaology breaks down in a couple of places (but not as many as > you think at first), but I can at least to some degree understand it > in that context. The only problem with this analogy is that Japan had already lost the war, its leaders had already acknowledged that fact to themselves, and all the Bomb achieved was horrify and terrify the world and serve anti-western propagandist as an example of American brutality and ruthlessness. Likewise, I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago, and you have no idea how hard it was - as a descendant of the "winners" - to stand in the ruins of the Kaiser Wilhelm Ged=E4chtniskirche knowing that the carpet bombing of Hamburg, Berlin and other major German cities from 1943 and onwards, in which the church was destroyed, served no military purpose other than maybe boost British morale and allow Allied Bomber Command to pat eachother's backs and congratulate eachother about their cleverness. What's even harder to swallow (and quite humbling) is the sense that many younger Germans (most I've had a chance to talk to, in fact) still harbor deep feelings of guilt about World War II. Americans, however, don't seem to think much of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or the carpet bombings; history is obviously written by the winners. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 16: 9:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AE937B407 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.6/8.11.5) id f8EN9XL82884 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:09:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:09:33 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: New World Trade Center Message-ID: <20010914160933.A82859@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The World Trade Center as it should be rebuilt. http://kissmykosherass.com Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 16:34:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF8637B403 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.78.232.152] (dialup1176.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.232.152] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.12) with ESMTP id f8ENY7H13308; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:34:08 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:17:37 +0200 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Scheidt From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Cc: Terry Lambert , Milo Hyson , Paul Robinson , Bill Moran , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:51 PM +0200 9/14/01, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > America is in serious need of a lesson in humility and historical > perspective, though I concede that this is a horrible way to learn > such a lesson, and I would not wish it upon anyone. No. America is not a single person, to be taught anything. The problem is that certain Americans seem to have no grasp whatsoever of history, and repeatedly demonstrate this fact. Unfortunately, the more involved someone is in politics, the more likely it seems that they have no grasp of history. Moreover, it also seems that they are much more likely to display their complete and total stupidity in times of crisis. These people need a serious history lesson and always have, and the recent events do not change this fact, only highlight it. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 17: 6:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from larry.compuage.com (larry.compuage.com [208.233.246.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49D0137B407 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.kellyhendrix.com (unverified [208.233.247.37]) by larry.compuage.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.0.179) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:21:10 -0500 Received: by www.kellyhendrix.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 70F7318C90; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:06:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:06:31 -0500 From: Kelly Hendrix To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Stephen Hurd , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010914190631.A551@www.kellyhendrix.com> Reply-To: Kelly Hendrix References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 12:18:13AM +0200 X-Freebsd-Version: FreeBSD 4.4-RC i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 12:18:13AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Likewise, I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago, and you have no idea > how hard it was - as a descendant of the "winners" - to stand in the > ruins of the Kaiser Wilhelm Gedächtniskirche knowing that the carpet > bombing of Hamburg, Berlin and other major German cities from 1943 and > onwards, in which the church was destroyed, served no military purpose > other than maybe boost British morale and allow Allied Bomber Command > to pat eachother's backs and congratulate eachother about their > cleverness. You can argue that both Berlin and Hamburg had strategic significance, but the one city that is rarely mentioned is Dresden. There were more lives lost at Dresden than in Hiroshima, Nagasaki combined. (200k plus if my memory serves me right) And what did they make which was of such strategic interest? Vitamin supplements. > What's even harder to swallow (and quite humbling) is the sense that > many younger Germans (most I've had a chance to talk to, in fact) > still harbor deep feelings of guilt about World War II. Americans, > however, don't seem to think much of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or the > carpet bombings; history is obviously written by the winners. You have to remember one thing: After the defeat of both Germany and Japan, in which the allied forces essentially bombed them back into the stone age, we went into these countries and completely rebuilt them both economic and politically. That, I'm pretty sure, was unprecedented (if I'm wrong, please correct me) No, that does not give us the right to rewrite history in our favor. America did come out of WWII with dirty, bloody hands, but once the deed was done, we DID the right thing. That, I'm proud of. Kelly Hendrix > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org -- ______________________________________________________________________ | There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a | | miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. | | | | Albert Einstein (1879-1955) | |______________________________________________________________________| To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 17:23:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lab.cyberlifelabs.com (lab.cyberlifelabs.com [208.201.255.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 172EE37B408 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25561 invoked from network); 15 Sep 2001 00:23:17 -0000 Received: from linny.lab.cyberlifelabs.com (HELO there) (208.201.255.8) by lab.cyberlifelabs.com with SMTP; 15 Sep 2001 00:23:17 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Milo Hyson To: Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:23:16 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20010915002318.172EE37B408@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday 14 September 2001 04:17 pm, Brad Knowles wrote: > The problem is that certain Americans seem to have no grasp > whatsoever of history, and repeatedly demonstrate this fact. > Unfortunately, the more involved someone is in politics, the more > likely it seems that they have no grasp of history. Moreover, it > also seems that they are much more likely to display their complete > and total stupidity in times of crisis. I agree. It's human nature to strike out at that which has hurt you, but that alone does not justify the action. A pissing contest never solves anything, except to make things all messy. As long as both sides keep trying to lay blame on the other, the conflict will continue forever -- until one or both are dead. -- Milo Hyson CyberLife Labs, LLC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 14 20:25:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from superrpg.com (cr10541-a.etob1.on.wave.home.com [24.156.233.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B1A2937B40D for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 45145 invoked by uid 1001); 15 Sep 2001 03:29:50 -0000 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:29:49 -0400 From: Jason Anthony Mifsud To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ipfw and ipf and pf Message-ID: <20010914232949.A45136@FATE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey all Since it's on topic right now, I was wondering what me (running 4.3 release) should be doing about firewalls. I have ipfw running right now with no rules and have considered learning it, but I figured that ipf or pf is probably the way to go because they're more robust. Any suggestions comments? I've already read a breif tutorial on ipfw but I'd rather jump into the pro stuff if I can :) ~JJ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 2:50:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9720A37B415 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 02:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.139.129.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.139.129]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA20279; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 02:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA3248D.5E47FDC9@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 02:51:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RMS: A threat to society? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010913023437.045fae70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913002733.05261930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912203732.0492cc80@localhost> <20010912225151.58FCD37B40B@hub.freebsd.org> <20010912215547.98067.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> <01091219512600.11358@proxy.the-i-pa.com> <20010912225428.A9675@citusc17.usc.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913021952.045974f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010913185102.0497c9e0@localhost> <15266.22869.722204.601040@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I changed the subject to reflect this thread, since it's really stupid in the context in which it's been placed. Mike Meyer wrote in response to Brett Glass: > I will agree that mine was a nasty, vindictive attack. On the other > hand, what you do not see is that your attack on RMS was at least as > nasty and vindictive. They are, essentially, the same attack - > comparing someone to a lunatic with no regard for human life. You are > doing what I predicted anyone with an agenda would do, and trying to > use the emotional energy generated by this disaster to help forward > your own agenda. Actually, I think that usually, Brett is mostly attacking RMS' philosophy; RMS is merely a convenient example of someone who espouses that philosophy. For the man himself, from personal observation of the man and reading of his writings, I also think RMS has many attributes in common with Theodore Kazinski (the Unibomber). I can give you a large laundry list, starting with his luddism, the fact that he also has written a "Manifesto", his unkempt appearance, his appearing to have, according to the DSM IV, 5 out of the 11 common symptoms of the rare condition Asperger's Syndrome ("Mad Scientist's Disease" -- a variant form of autism), his disdain for the rule of law (in his case, intellectual property law), and so on. In short, RMS is a scar, a shaved head, a monocle, and a bald cat away from being a villian in an Austin Powers movie... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 4:33:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8149037B40F for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.139.129.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.139.129]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA22429; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA33CB6.FE0102C8@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:34:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Stephen Hurd , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: [ ... Bad Japan analogy involving a preannounced demonstration bombing using a new weapon in a declared war with the aggressor nation ... ] > The only problem with this analogy is that Japan had already lost the > war, its leaders had already acknowledged that fact to themselves, and > all the Bomb achieved was horrify and terrify the world and serve > anti-western propagandist as an example of American brutality and > ruthlessness. You are not very well read on this subject, it seems. I suggest the works of Kenzaburo Oe; in particular, I recommend: Japan, the Ambiguous, and Myself: The Nobel Prize Speech and Other Lectures Kenzaburo Oe Kodansha International ISBN: 4770019807 If you can't find the book, the speech is reproduced here: I also suggest reading a Japanese written prewar history of Japan; Orson Scott Card paraphrases the most common theme thusly: I was reading a history of prewar Japan and was intrigued by the notion that the people driving the war forward were not the members of the ruling elite, nor even the top leaders of the Japanese military, but rather the young midlevel officers. Of course these very officers would have thought it ridiculous that they were in any way in control of the war effort. They drove the war forward, not because they had power in their hands, but because the rulers of Japan dare not be shamed before them. In other words, it was culturally impossible for Japan to stop the war, without definitively losing the war. The Japanese word for this is "Bushido". > Likewise, I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago, and you have no idea > how hard it was - as a descendant of the "winners" - to stand in the > ruins of the Kaiser Wilhelm Ged=E4chtniskirche knowing that the carpet > bombing of Hamburg, Berlin and other major German cities from 1943 and > onwards, in which the church was destroyed, served no military purpose > other than maybe boost British morale and allow Allied Bomber Command > to pat eachother's backs and congratulate eachother about their > cleverness. I'm certain that, had the Germans pointed out a more direct route to defeating them, including precisely the targets to concentrate on in order to make them lose, the Allies would have been very happy to undo the one bolt that held everything together, instead of maniacally blasting away with a shotgun. PS: How many holes did it take to fill the Albert Hall? > What's even harder to swallow (and quite humbling) is the sense that > many younger Germans (most I've had a chance to talk to, in fact) > still harbor deep feelings of guilt about World War II. Americans, > however, don't seem to think much of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or the > carpet bombings; history is obviously written by the winners. This is aggregiously incorrect. The U.S. is so guilt-ridden over the use of atomic weapons in Japan that it eschews nuclear power with a fear verging on a true phobia. In order of percentage of power generated via nuclear energy, the U.S. ranks 10th. In order of most to least (Source: "Energy Studies Yearbook, United Nations, 1995"), the top 10 are: France, Belgium, Sweden, Spain, South Korea, Ukraine, Germany, Japan, United Kingdom, United States. Note Germany (29% nuclear powered) and Japan (28%) are much higher up the list than the U.S. (19%). California PG&E customers pay a fee on their bill each month to support the decommissioning of existing nuclear plants -- and this decommissioning is occurring _despite_ a large enough power crisis that rolling blackouts were occurring alost daily for months on end: we were so afraid of nuclear power, we were getting rid of the reactors, despite having to cut power to homes, schools, businesses, and, in some instances, vital services on which peoples lives may depend. We do this _despite_ the fact that one half of the Diablo Canyon facility generates 1.8 times the electricity that would be generated by all the wind turbines in California running at full speed, constantly -- assuming we could force the wind to blow sufficiently fast, everywhere at once. We do this _despite_ the fact that natural gas powered plants generate the vast majority of the green house gas CO2 that is generated in California -- very close to all other sources of the gas in the state _combined_. We do this _despite_ the fact that nuclear waste can be held safely until it is itself safe, while the chemical waste from coal-fired plants _does not break down_ -- it is dangerous _forever_. In the worst case scenario, you mix the waste with the tailing from the mine you extracted it from, and put it back -- and then it's _safer_ than what you took out in the first place. We use standard fission plants, unlike Japan and France and most other countries, which use breeder reactors -- making nuclear a self-renewing fuel everywhere but the U.S. (in the U.S., there are only two breeder reactors, and they are only used to generate nuclear weapons). So you are an idiot if you don't think that America does not suffer _profound_ guilt over the use of nuclear weapons in the Japan conflict; it does -- to the point of abandoning money, working lights and heat, efficiency, and rabid environmentalism... all to assuage that guilt. PS: How profound do you think is the guilt of the perpetrators of the September 11th atrocity?. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 5: 7:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A2E937B40A for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 05:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a020.otenet.gr [212.205.215.20]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f8FC7hd00256; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:07:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f8FB3Ek46097; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:03:14 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:03:13 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Jason Anthony Mifsud Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ipfw and ipf and pf Message-ID: <20010915140313.A45993@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010914232949.A45136@FATE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010914232949.A45136@FATE>; from jamifsud@superrpg.com on Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:29:49PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason Anthony Mifsud wrote: > Hey all > > I have ipfw running right now with no rules and have considered learning it, > but I figured that ipf or pf is probably the way to go because they're more > robust. You seem to be prejudiced on this matter. Why are you saying that ipf or pf[1] is more robust? > Any suggestions comments? > > I've already read a breif tutorial on ipfw but I'd rather jump into the pro > stuff if I can :) Both ipf and ipfw can be a descent firewall. They have similar features, and what can be done in one of them, is also possible with the other for more or Less all their features. There is on thing that I know ipfw does, which ipf cannot handle, and that it 'pipes'; a means of bandwidth-limiting. Most people who choose the one over the other, do so for simple reasons though. Among the most frequent ones are: a) I like (ipf|ipfw) language better. b) I like ipf because it works on other Unixes too. c) I like ipfw because I use pipes all the time. Really, the choise is yours. I'd say, study them both, and choose what fits yours needs better. -giorgos [1] There is `pf' in FreeBSD. This is an OpenBSD packet filter. I dont know how it works, so I'm not commenting on it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 5:12:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from unity.copyleft.no (unity.copyleft.no [212.71.72.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7409B37B412 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 05:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from johs by unity.copyleft.no with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 15iEIs-0000C0-00; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:12:10 +0200 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:12:10 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Johannes_Gr=F8dem?= To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Jason Anthony Mifsud , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ipfw and ipf and pf Message-ID: <20010915141210.A27307@unity.copyleft.no> References: <20010914232949.A45136@FATE> <20010915140313.A45993@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010915140313.A45993@hades.hell.gr>; from charon@labs.gr on Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 02:03:13PM +0300 Organization: Copyleft Software AS Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > c) I like ipfw because I use pipes all the time. You can use ipfw for pipes and ipfilter for filtering and NAT, if you like. -- johs To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 6:26:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 011C837B407 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 06:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA37180; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:26:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Jason Anthony Mifsud , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ipfw and ipf and pf References: <20010914232949.A45136@FATE> <20010915140313.A45993@hades.hell.gr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Sep 2001 15:26:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010915140313.A45993@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas writes: > [1] There is `pf' in FreeBSD. This is an OpenBSD packet filter. > I dont know how it works, so I'm not commenting on it. Judging from the man pages, OpenBSD's pf is intended to be ruleset- compatible with ipf. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 7:27:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp8.xs4all.nl (smtp8.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3DE37B40B for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xs4.xs4all.nl (xs4.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.45]) by smtp8.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27503 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:27:22 +0200 (CEST) From: rene@xs4all.nl Received: (from rene@localhost) by xs4.xs4all.nl (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA11427 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:27:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:27:22 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: choosing the perfect windowmanager? Message-ID: <20010915162722.J18339@xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi. so I've got my box up and running, and now I want a graphical userinterface. Is there any documentation (or opinions) that you can offer me about which one to choose? I'm quite baffled by all the options and considerations, and would like to know what adheres to my minimum requirements.. my min requirements are, in order of importance: - security - I definately need a way to connect to my desktop securely, prefferably using a webbrowser (java?) or something like VNC, but encrypted. - stability: when ran under FreeBSD, but opinions of other OSes are also appreciated. - availability of tools and applications - availability of nicelooking themes - restrictiveness of the license I would greatly appreciate a large number of replies on this thread... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 7:58: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.lordlegacy.org (lordlegacy.org [209.61.182.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F1637B401 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sharon ([216.13.207.127]) by server1.lordlegacy.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA07289; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 05:09:17 -0500 From: "Stephen Hurd" To: , Subject: RE: choosing the perfect windowmanager? Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:04:24 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <20010915162722.J18339@xs4all.nl> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hi. so I've got my box up and running, and now I want a graphical > userinterface. Is there any documentation (or opinions) that you > can offer me > about which one to choose? I'm quite baffled by all the options and > considerations, and would like to know what adheres to my minimum > requirements.. > > my min requirements are, in order of importance: > - security - I definately need a way to connect to my desktop > securely, prefferably using a webbrowser (java?) or something like > VNC, but encrypted. > - stability: when ran under FreeBSD, but opinions of other OSes are also > appreciated. From which OS are you wanting to connect? Most modern X-servers will connect over an SSH tunnel... including the ones for Windows. So this shouldn't be a concern for a particular wm... > - availability of tools and applications Hmmm... if you want LOTS of tools, gnome/enlightenment is fat on tools... many of them aren't the best tools, but there's GOBS of them. It often takes longer to settle on a specific set of tools under gnome... IF you want to exclude a particular set... most KDE tools will run in gnome and vice-versa. The KDE API seems to make more sense if you read the spec.. the gnome one seems to be more ummm... "organic".. that is bit's just kinds grew on all over the place. > - availability of nicelooking themes nicelooking! Ack! Value judgement! > - restrictiveness of the license Err... restrictive how? Not sure. Depends on your tastes/political view. Basically, I like running blackbox all by itself with no desktop environment at all. That aside, I've always preferred KDE 1.x as a desktop environment for one simple reason... the taskbar at the top... they've killed it in 2.x and I still haven't forgiven them. I seem to be the only person in the world that feels that way though. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 10:15:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eui2smtp.euskaltel.es (eui2smtp.euskaltel.es [212.55.8.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155CE37B408 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eu148-227.clientes.euskaltel.es ([212.142.148.227]) by eui2smtp.euskaltel.es (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GJPS0X04.92E for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:17:21 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: KEPA To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Laptops & FreeBSD Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:23:36 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0109151923360C.01165@eu148-227.clientes.euskaltel.es> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm thinking on buying a laptop. I know clone laptops origine installation problems with Linux ordinary. Dell. IBM and Sony are recomended. Is it the same in FreeBSD? Thanks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 11:40:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E232737B409; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15iKMP-0006OY-00; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:40:13 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15iKMh-0005pY-00; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:40:31 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:40:31 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: KEPA Cc: chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Laptops & FreeBSD Message-ID: <20010915194031.K3356@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <0109151923360C.01165@eu148-227.clientes.euskaltel.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0109151923360C.01165@eu148-227.clientes.euskaltel.es>; from keparena@euskalnet.net on Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 07:23:36PM +0200 X-Scanner: exiscan *15iKMP-0006OY-00*$AK$nH4uYcKSYdidasz7qc6Eu.* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This really doesn't belong on -chat, so I've cross-posted over to -questions, and I suspect any follow-ups would be best left there. On Sep 15, KEPA wrote: > I'm thinking on buying a laptop. > I know clone laptops origine installation problems with Linux ordinary. > Dell. IBM and Sony are recomended. > Is it the same in FreeBSD? I've had many problems in the past with various laptop installs, but just this week I got FBSD 4.3 onto a Thinkpad 240 without problems. In general, the laptop is not the problem, it's the peripherals you want to use. For example, PCMCIA network cards are notorious (in this household anyway) for getting working if you skimp and buy a 'vanilla' card. I spent a bit extra and got a regular 3com 10/100 card and FBSD saw it and used without any problems at all. So, to answer your question, these days almost any laptop will work, but make sure you're using well-known cards, CD's, etc. and remember that most laptops with internal modems are normally winmodems, the support for which I haven't got working yet. -- Paul Robinson ,--------------------------------------- Technical Director @ Akita | A computer lets you make more mistakes PO Box 604, Manchester, M60 3PR | than any other invention with the T: +44 (0) 161 228 6388 (F:6389)| possible exceptions of handguns and | Tequila - Mitch Ratcliffe `----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 17:42:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from msg-proxy2.mweb.co.za (msg-proxy2.mweb.co.za [196.2.46.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F30B37B40A for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 17:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siberiyan.dyndns.org ([196.30.183.182]) by msg-proxy2.mweb.co.za (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GJQ00D48CLHWY@msg-proxy2.mweb.co.za> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 02:41:54 +0200 (SAST) Received: by siberiyan.dyndns.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 16 Sep 2001 02:41:54 +0200 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 02:41:54 +0200 From: Piet Delport Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-reply-to: <3BA33CB6.FE0102C8@mindspring.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Stephen Hurd , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <20010916024154.B57021@athalon> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=WfZ7S8PLGjBY9Voh; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RC X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 6.0av BETA (http://www.vim.org/) X-Crypto: gpg (GnuPG) 1.0.6 (http://www.gnupg.org/) X-GPG-Key-ID: 0x6B191427 X-GPG-Fingerprint: C7FF A540 2199 F7BF 1933 5640 CD15 0FF3 6B19 1427 References: <3BA33CB6.FE0102C8@mindspring.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --WfZ7S8PLGjBY9Voh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ disclaimer: I'm a South African with no official training in ] [ socio-politics, aside from what i glean from observation, and ] [ reading the occasional book and/or other piece of literature. ] [ So this is mainly an armchair opinion. ] On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 at 04:34:14 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: [snip] > > Likewise, I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago, and you have no > > idea how hard it was - as a descendant of the "winners" - to stand > > in the ruins of the Kaiser Wilhelm Ged=E4chtniskirche knowing that the > > carpet bombing of Hamburg, Berlin and other major German cities from > > 1943 and onwards, in which the church was destroyed, served no > > military purpose other than maybe boost British morale and allow > > Allied Bomber Command to pat eachother's backs and congratulate > > eachother about their cleverness. >=20 > I'm certain that, had the Germans pointed out a more direct route to > defeating them, including precisely the targets to concentrate on in > order to make them lose, the Allies would have been very happy to undo > the one bolt that held everything together, instead of maniacally > blasting away with a shotgun. So, to paraphrase, it was Germany's fault that the Allies carpet-bombed their cities, because Germany didn't conveniently point out to their enemies where all their most important military targets are instead? Expecting the country you're at war with to conveniently reveal all their key military weak spots to you is absurd, and taking the fact that they (obviously) didn't do so and using it as a moral excuse to carpet bomb their cities and civilians is just as absurd. The fact is that thousands of civilians died in those bombings, and while war in general is a Bad Thing, i think the mass-killing of civilians like that is one of the worst examples of it. Whether it's the Allies, the Germans, or even Bin Laden's terrorists that do the said killing doesn't make it any less wrong. > PS: How many holes did it take to fill the Albert Hall? >=20 > > What's even harder to swallow (and quite humbling) is the sense that > > many younger Germans (most I've had a chance to talk to, in fact) > > still harbor deep feelings of guilt about World War II. Americans, > > however, don't seem to think much of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or the > > carpet bombings; history is obviously written by the winners. >=20 > This is aggregiously incorrect. >=20 > The U.S. is so guilt-ridden over the use of atomic weapons in Japan > that it eschews nuclear power with a fear verging on a true phobia. > In order of percentage of power generated via nuclear energy, the U.S. > ranks 10th. In order of most to least (Source: "Energy Studies > Yearbook, United Nations, 1995"), the top 10 are: France, Belgium, > Sweden, Spain, South Korea, Ukraine, Germany, Japan, United Kingdom, > United States. >=20 > Note Germany (29% nuclear powered) and Japan (28%) are much higher up > the list than the U.S. (19%). >=20 > California PG&E customers pay a fee on their bill each month to > support the decommissioning of existing nuclear plants -- and this > decommissioning is occurring _despite_ a large enough power crisis > that rolling blackouts were occurring alost daily for months on end: > we were so afraid of nuclear power, we were getting rid of the > reactors, despite having to cut power to homes, schools, businesses, > and, in some instances, vital services on which peoples lives may > depend. >=20 > We do this _despite_ the fact that one half of the Diablo Canyon > facility generates 1.8 times the electricity that would be generated > by all the wind turbines in California running at full speed, > constantly -- assuming we could force the wind to blow sufficiently > fast, everywhere at once. >=20 > We do this _despite_ the fact that natural gas powered plants generate > the vast majority of the green house gas CO2 that is generated in > California -- very close to all other sources of the gas in the state > _combined_. >=20 > We do this _despite_ the fact that nuclear waste can be held safely > until it is itself safe, while the chemical waste from coal-fired > plants _does not break down_ -- it is dangerous _forever_. In the > worst case scenario, you mix the waste with the tailing from the mine > you extracted it from, and put it back -- and then it's _safer_ than > what you took out in the first place. These are indeed many excellent examples of how Americans want to get rid of nuclear power plants, despite their superiority in every way over older technologies. However, i sincerely doubt that they has anything whatsoever to do with guilt over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. More likely is that this is because a large number of Americans (statistically speaking) perceive nuclear power as dangerous to *themselves* (cue cancer scares, and public paranoia of reactors melting down a la Chernobyl). [1] Even besides that, what do electricity-generating nuclear _power plants_ (which Americans are opposed to) have to do with nuclear _weapons_ (which you hardly even mention) in this context? > We use standard fission plants, unlike Japan and France and most other > countries, which use breeder reactors -- making nuclear a > self-renewing fuel everywhere but the U.S. (in the U.S., there are > only two breeder reactors, and they are only used to generate nuclear > weapons). If Americans are so soul-struck with guilt over their bombing of Japan, why isn't there an outcry over the fact that even more nuclear weapons are being manufactured? =20 Why aren't they trying to get rid of the *bombs*, instead of civilian reactors? > So you are an idiot if you don't think that America does not suffer > _profound_ guilt over the use of nuclear weapons in the Japan > conflict; it does -- to the point of abandoning money, working lights > and heat, efficiency, and rabid environmentalism... all to assuage > that guilt. Guilt over the past use of nuclear weapons and irrational fear of civilian nuclear reactors are two entirely separate things. I doubt *anyone* paying that fee to support the de-commissioning of existing reactors are thinking about Hiroshima/Nagasaki when they do so. Instead, are there any public memorials dedicated to the tragedy, any public days of mourning, or anything like that which would indicate real guilt? (This is an honest question, i really haven't the faintest idea.) > PS: How profound do you think is the guilt of the perpetrators of the > September 11th atrocity?. Even less than the guilt of Joe Average American over America's own atrocities, i imagine. [1] The foolishness of this is a whole other, unrelated, rant. --=20 Piet Delport Today's subliminal thought is: --WfZ7S8PLGjBY9Voh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE7o/VSzRUP82sZFCcRApoQAKCEHYAIE8BgvPaj9K8PSRtBjD5xUQCfUaEF iy0gAXE+a51z4EkIcrBINXw= =QyHt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WfZ7S8PLGjBY9Voh-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 19:26:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC0837B40E; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (root@spare0.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.114]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08784; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:55:50 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010915194031.K3356@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:55:45 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Paul Robinson Subject: Re: Laptops & FreeBSD Cc: questions@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org, KEPA Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15-Sep-2001 Paul Robinson wrote: > laptops with internal modems are normally winmodems, the support for which I > haven't got working yet. Unless they're Lucent WinModems, or IBM MWave's... --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 20: 0:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ghost2.onet.pl (ghost2.onet.pl [213.180.128.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C312337B40A for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.wiedza.icu.pl ([157.25.130.16]:48372 "HELO poczta.onet.pl") by ghost2.onet.pl with SMTP id ; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:00:05 +0200 From: "Mueller" To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org" Subject: WTC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:01:46 +0200 Reply-To: "Mueller" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message-Id: <20010916030005Z600621-5366+1934@ghost2.onet.pl> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Check that site http://www.bau-center.com -- r e k l a m a Lista Plac [ http://listaplac.onet.pl ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 20: 0:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ghost1.onet.pl (ghost1.onet.pl [213.180.128.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D66637B409 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.wiedza.icu.pl ([157.25.130.16]:48116 "HELO poczta.onet.pl") by ghost1.onet.pl with SMTP id ; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:00:10 +0200 From: "Mueller" To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org" Subject: WTC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:01:46 +0200 Reply-To: "Mueller" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message-Id: <20010916030010Z178863-9115+879@ghost1.onet.pl> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Check that site http://www.bau-center.com -- r e k l a m a Lista Plac [ http://listaplac.onet.pl ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 15 20: 3:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDF837B407 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 19D127567; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090431D8F; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:06:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010914140905.056f4340@localhost> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Brett Glass wrote: :At 01:24 PM 9/14/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: : :>But as you kept on shouting out your hatred : :It is you, Mike, who are shouting out hatred. I am condemning it. : :>I will agree that mine was a nasty, vindictive attack. : :Then stop. Would you two killfile each other, please? You're both normally at least semi rational, so long as you don't engage each other. At that point you both become insufferable. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message