From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 23 2:11:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE4B837B417 for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 02:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FD3BCE5; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 02:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA28496; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 02:11:18 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBNABU264393; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 02:11:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <15394.43349.782935.475024@guru.mired.org> <15394.56866.830152.580700@guru.mired.org> <18d718uuw2.718@localhost.localdomain> <15395.43708.816636.295489@guru.mired.org> <15397.9585.514476.882122@guru.mired.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 23 Dec 2001 02:11:29 -0800 In-Reply-To: <15397.9585.514476.882122@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Lines: 146 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mike Meyer" writes: > Gary W. Swearingen types: > > "Mike Meyer" writes: > > > > > Slight change. Let's make S originally a BSDL source, but what A gets > > > is a binary under their license, as allowed by the BSDL. Would you > > > thereby claim that C's actions places a requirement on B to provide > > > source to S to A if they want it? Or would B no longer be allowed to > > > distribute a binary built from S without that requirement? > > > > This looks very interesting. New stuff. But I need more info before > > spending more time on it. What is "their license" (of S to A)? Is it a > > standard BSDL or a private, two-party thing? I infer that S has been > > licensed to the public under BSDL, but not distributed. Did you mean > > that? > > Actually, this is the situation that people are actually worried > about. S is BSDL licensed and distributed to the public as such. B > takes S, and builds a commercial product based on it. They sell it to > A as a binary with a standard commercial software license (i.e. - we > own it, you have a license to use it, and we guarantee the media is > readable and nothing more). > > Now C takes S, "combines" it with T which is covered by the GPL and > distributes the results under the GPL. Back to the questions: Is B now > required to provide source to their commercial product upon demand > from A? Or are they simply no longer allowed to distribute said > product other than under the terms of the GPL. Note that I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. Consult a lawyer for that. I'm just commenting on a hypothetical situation, after some Internet reading and thought. More missing info: Does C own T or not? A assume it doesn't matter because he insists on distributing his results under the GPL. Also: Does S get dual-licensed under the GPL & BSDL by it's owner? I'm going to assume that a single work can be fixed in a medium of expressioin of the source and binary forms. It might be more appropriate in some cases to consider an intermediate binary work, but I think it doesn't matter in this case and would only make this longer. Note that we consider parts and collective works because it is easy to think about, but messy, low-level-modified, comingled derivatives would have a similer, if much harder to write, analysis and result. S, K, T = software parts; SK, ST = collective works. s=source, b=binary w==work, c==copy A, B, C, D, and P(public) = persons -- Initially we have -- SswD = a source work which D owns (ie, on which D owns copyrights) and has publicly licensed under the BSDL (and published copies). SscP = a source copy which a member of the public owns. (Eg, B & C) KswB = a source work which B owns and wishes to secret-code-license (SCL). KscB = a source copy which B owns. TswC = a source work which C keeps under GPL, so it doesn't matter for this whether he owns it. TscC = a source copy which C keeps under GPL. -- Then we have (after some compilation/derivation) -- SKswDB = a source work which B created but B and D own. (derived from SswD and KswB) SKbcA = a binary copy which B licenses (or sells) to A. STwsDC = a source work which C created but C and D own. (derived from SswD and TswC) STsbcP = a source and binary copy which C wishes to license to members of the public for no cash (but possibly some cross-licensing in derivatives) under the GPL. -- Comments -- B is allowed by the BSDL to distribute SKbcA as he pleases except that since it is derived from SswD and that part of the work is still owned by D, some BSDL conditions still apply and SKbcA must be accompanied by D's copyright notice and a copy of most of the BSDL. (Note that as long as A doesn't distribute copies of SKbcA, A need not agree to the BSDL and has thus not waived D's liability. Maybe the disclaimer is good enough, but I doubt it. Not good. There's a good reason license are usually long. A likely alternative is for B to get a special private license from D so A need not know about D or the BSDL, with D indemnifying D against liability claims by A, etc. Ask a lawyer.) C is allowed by the BSDL to distribute STsbcP as he pleases except that since it is derived from SswD and that part of the work is still owned by D, some BSDL conditions still apply and SKbcA must be accompanied by D's copyright notice and a copy of most of the BSDL. Except there is a problem in this case too. The GPL forbids such distribution unless the entire work is placed under the GPL. So it either isn't going to happen legally, or D is going to have to dual license the SswD under the GPL in addition to the current BSDL. If it's done illegally, C has infringed on D. B and A have nothing to worry about. If D decides to offer to license SswD to the public under the GPL in addition to the existing BSDL offer, then we are at the crux of the question asked. (I'm beginning to wonder if I should have replaced most of the above with a couple of lines. The binary-only feature of this scenario wasn't as problematical as I thought it might be.) The answer seems clear: if SswD was licensed to B and A under just the BSDL (whethor or not SswD was begin offered under just BSDL or both BSDL and GPL at the time), then SKbcA is not infected and B and A have nothing to worry about. The license for SswD is now offerred under BSDL and GPL, but any person may choose to accept either one or both. I think that this discussion sheds a new light on some of the talk of "a GPL'd kernel" being the result of GPL infection. Either an infringment has occurred and the kernel is not infected at all (not legaly; it might be practically), or the formerly pure-BSDL parts have been offered under the GPL too. In which case the talk is valid, even in a kernel which contains no pure-GPL work, but the statement is incomplete as the kernel is really "a BSDL and/or GPL, your option, kernel". (If I seem to be arguing for dual-licensing, I'm not. I'm glad to see the GPL remain self-inoculating, even though it sort of goes against the "very free to use" philosophy. The problem could be fixed in the GPL and not require "very free" licensors to offer the restrictive GPL.) A final issue for now: The GPL's crucial, "the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License" COULD be construed (by me, anyway) to mean "on the terms of the GPL ONLY", removing the option of dual licensing. It's not clear that a work which is under both BSDL and GPL to a particular person may be said to be licensed to him on the terms of the GPL. Much of the GPL is rendered null and void by the combination and the effect of the license on pressuring people to not use BSDL is very different, depending on the meaning. What effect does the licensor intend? What will he insist upon? RMS sometimes recommends dual- licensing, but it's another risk factor with him or other licensors. P.S. Something that occurred to me that I've taken note of: When we say "X has licensed software Y under the GPL", we usually mean "X has offered to license software Y under the GPL to members of the public". There's no licensing until the offer is accepted. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 23 13:32: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E3A37B417 for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 13:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23524; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 14:31:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011223142248.00c675f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 14:31:18 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), "Mike Meyer" From: Brett Glass Subject: Wow. SuperFUD. (Was: GPL nonsense: time to stop) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <15397.9585.514476.882122@guru.mired.org> <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <15394.43349.782935.475024@guru.mired.org> <15394.56866.830152.580700@guru.mired.org> <18d718uuw2.718@localhost.localdomain> <15395.43708.816636.295489@guru.mired.org> <15397.9585.514476.882122@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yikes! As the many confusing examples below show, one of the main ways that the GPL hinders the development of any software that is not GPLed is to create massive FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) about licensing issues. This (besides some of the points that have already been mentioned) is yet another reason to stay as far away from the GPL as possible. The long discussion we've had over the past week (and the many others prior to this one) demonstrate that the ONLY way to ensure that the BSDs are truly free of all encumbrances -- including the aforementioned FUD -- is to license them and all of their parts only under truly free licenses that do not permit the assimilation of the code by the GPL. Only then will we (a) have a reasonable assurance of where we stand and what people's legal rights are with respect to the code; and (b) avoid being co-opted into the GPL "collective" due to the presence of GPLed code in the source tree or distribution. There are simply too many dangers involved in letting the GPL's nose into the tent, and as conservative engineers we simply cannot afford to let it in at all. Rather than wasting our energy trying to figure out what the GPL's effects might or might not be, or arguing about them, let's spend it on coding the GPL out of the BSD source trees and out of the distribution. Completely. --Brett At 03:11 AM 12/23/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >S, K, T = software parts; SK, ST = collective works. >s=source, b=binary >w==work, c==copy >A, B, C, D, and P(public) = persons > >-- Initially we have -- > >SswD = a source work which D owns (ie, on which D owns copyrights) and > has publicly licensed under the BSDL (and published copies). >SscP = a source copy which a member of the public owns. (Eg, B & C) > >KswB = a source work which B owns and > wishes to secret-code-license (SCL). >KscB = a source copy which B owns. > >TswC = a source work which C keeps under GPL, > so it doesn't matter for this whether he owns it. >TscC = a source copy which C keeps under GPL. > >-- Then we have (after some compilation/derivation) -- > >SKswDB = a source work which B created but B and D own. > (derived from SswD and KswB) >SKbcA = a binary copy which B licenses (or sells) to A. > >STwsDC = a source work which C created but C and D own. > (derived from SswD and TswC) >STsbcP = a source and binary copy which C wishes to license > to members of the public for no cash (but possibly some > cross-licensing in derivatives) under the GPL. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 23 15:32:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B33337B416 for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 15:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from thinkpad770z.davidcamp.net ([216.103.90.137]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GOT00KXOLEBYG@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 15:32:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 15:32:32 -0800 From: Dave Walton Subject: Does Linux violate the GPL? To: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: dwalton@acm.org Message-id: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.6.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Even though they can get a bit unruly at times, I enjoy reading these licensing threads, because they tend to give me new perspectives on the issues and help me understand them better. This most recent discussion made me realize that I've been suffering from a major GPL-induced misconception. Thanks to those who described the problem in ways that made this clear. The misconception comes from the viral nature of the GPL. Even on this list, people speak in terms of the GPL "infecting" other code, as if combining GPL code with other code automatically causes the other code to be under GPL. I believe the FSF encourages this muddy thinking, and this misconception is behind the attitude of many GPL zealots who believe they can alter the license on code they did not create. The truth of the matter is that the GPL does not "infect" code, but instead attempts to force authors to take action to license their code under GPL. In practice however, I believe the muddy thinking it encourages may be causing numerous copyright and/or GPL violations. There are three obvious scenarios that spring to my mind. Let's have a look at them... A creates software S under BSDL. (Note that the BSDL does not grant permission to alter the license, a right which is reserved for the author by default, contrary to popular slashdot belief.) B creates software T under GPL. 1. A decides to include T into S, but does not change the license on S. One of two possibilities exists: a. A is in violation of the GPL by not relicensing S and may not legally use T. b. Because A is the author of S, A might be considered to have implicitly licensed S under GPL, regardless of A's intentions. This example illustrates the dangers that FreeBSD flirts with and (hopefully) avoids. 2. B decides to include S into T, but does not arrange for A to release S under GPL. This causes two violations: a. B has violated the copyright of A by altering the license and may not legally use S. b. B has violated the GPL by not releasing ALL the code under GPL. 3. C creates a new software U, which is a combination of S and T, but does not arrange for A to release S under GPL. Once more, two violations: a. C has violated the copyright of A by altering the license and may not legally use S. b. C has violated the GPL by not releasing ALL the code under GPL. I find it mildly entertaining that the GPL makes it so difficult to use GPL software without violating GPL. This is freedom? And given that the GPL requires an entire work to be published under GPL, even the parts from other authors, how can any license be considered "GPL-compatible"? But I have to wonder... Linux (among many other projects) has borrowed code from BSD. If, as I suspect, relicensing was not arranged, doesn't that mean that Linux is in violation of both the authors' copyrights and the GPL itself? Dave -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 23 15:56:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5573337B416 for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 15:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25640 invoked by uid 100); 23 Dec 2001 23:56:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15398.28461.605242.845831@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 17:56:29 -0600 To: dwalton@acm.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? In-Reply-To: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> References: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Walton types: > A creates software S under BSDL. (Note that the BSDL does not grant > permission to alter the license, a right which is reserved for the author > by default, contrary to popular slashdot belief.) > B creates software T under GPL. > > 1. A decides to include T into S, but does not change the license on S. > One of two possibilities exists: > a. A is in violation of the GPL by not relicensing S and may not > legally use T. This is false. > 2. B decides to include S into T, but does not arrange for A to release S > under GPL. This causes two violations: > a. B has violated the copyright of A by altering the license and may > not legally use S. False again. > b. B has violated the GPL by not releasing ALL the code under GPL. This is true. > 3. C creates a new software U, which is a combination of S and T, but > does not arrange for A to release S under GPL. Once more, two violations: > a. C has violated the copyright of A by altering the license and may > not legally use S. Again false. > b. C has violated the GPL by not releasing ALL the code under GPL. Again true. > I find it mildly entertaining that the GPL makes it so difficult to use > GPL software without violating GPL. You're making the same mistake that Gary kept trying to straighten out. Neither BSDL nor GPL place any restrictions on *use* of the covered work. The restrictions are on distribution. So all the places where you say "may not legally use", you really need to say "may not legally distribute". I.e. - if I take T and add S - neither of which I hold a copyright to - I can legally use it without violating either license, but I can't let anyone else have a copy. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 23 16:16: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7687C37B41A for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:16:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from thinkpad770z.davidcamp.net ([216.103.90.137]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GOT005ZONERED@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:16:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:15:59 -0800 From: Dave Walton Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? In-reply-to: <15398.28461.605242.845831@guru.mired.org> To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: dwalton@acm.org Message-id: <20011223161559.0f20faa8.dwalton@acm.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.6.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <15398.28461.605242.845831@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 23 Dec 2001 17:56:29 -0600, "Mike Meyer" wrote: > You're making the same mistake that Gary kept trying to straighten > out. Neither BSDL nor GPL place any restrictions on *use* of the > covered work. The restrictions are on distribution. So all the places > where you say "may not legally use", you really need to say "may not > legally distribute". I.e. - if I take T and add S - neither of which I > hold a copyright to - I can legally use it without violating either > license, but I can't let anyone else have a copy. Rats. I knew there was going to be a mistake in my wording somewhere. When I wrote "use", I was thinking of something along the lines of "incorporate and distribute". So if I substitute "may not legally distribute" for all instances of "may not legally use", does that remove all your objections to my statements? Thanks, Dave -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 23 22: 5:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from loops.nilpotent.org (loops.nilpotent.org [12.17.163.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C88CD37B423 for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 22:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 76400 invoked by uid 200); 24 Dec 2001 06:05:36 -0000 Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 22:05:36 -0800 From: Faried Nawaz To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: quake2 on freebsd. Message-ID: <20011223220536.A76248@nilpotent.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Organization: Integral Domains Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have quake 2 almost working on FreeBSD. It works fine as a dedicated game server, but not so well as a game client. cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@cvs.quakeforge.net:/cvsroot/quake login (hit enter) cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@cvs.quakeforge.net:/cvsroot/quake co quake2 Next, grab http://web.nilpotent.org/tmp/q2-freebsd-diff1.txt http://web.nilpotent.org/tmp/q2-freebsd-diff2.txt Patch, cd into the "quake2/freebsd" directory, and run gmake. When it's done building, do cp debugi386/quake2 .. cp debugi386/*.so ../baseq2/ Copy the pak?.pak files and the player directory from quake 2's demo release (or the real game) into the baseq2 and run. You might need the graphics/Mesa3 port installed to compile it. If you fix the problem with fake_mremap() in quake2/freebsd/q_shfreebsd.c, you'll get the client to run! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 23 22:39:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF4C037B41A for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 22:39:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64044BD1E; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 22:39:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02822; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 22:39:35 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBO6djG28795; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 22:39:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: dwalton@acm.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? References: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <15398.28461.605242.845831@guru.mired.org> <20011223161559.0f20faa8.dwalton@acm.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 23 Dec 2001 22:39:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011223161559.0f20faa8.dwalton@acm.org> Message-ID: <09n109t93i.109@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Walton writes: > Rats. I knew there was going to be a mistake in my wording somewhere. > When I wrote "use", I was thinking of something along the lines of > "incorporate and distribute". And when Mike wrote "use" (in "Neither BSDL nor GPL place any restrictions on *use* of the covered work."), he was apparently thinking of something along the lines of "execute" (or maybe also "incorporate and execute"). Let's all keep in mind that source code has many uses and using just "use" is likely to be ambiguous or just wrong. Mike's statement (without the BSDL part) is common misleading GNU-speak used in their propaganda. The fact is that both BSDL and GPL place restrictions on the use of the covered work. If not, we would say the work is in the public domain. P.S. You said in a previous post that the BSD license doesn't allow something. I hope you've also noticed the BSD licensors allow almost anything. I've never heard of even a polite request to stop infringment, let alone cease-and-desist letters and lawsuit threats. It seems to be understood by licensors and licensees alike as just a way to put code into the public domain with a declaimer of liability and request for attribution. Along the same lines, note that what the GPL seems to say is often significantly different from what GPL licensors say it says and often from what they insist upon (also often different things). The guys that ignore all the fine print might have the right idea, since there's little that one can do about it anyway. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 23 23:34:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1486B37B41A for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 23:34:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA27539; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 00:33:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011224003127.01ebcbb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 00:33:53 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), dwalton@acm.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <09n109t93i.109@localhost.localdomain> References: <20011223161559.0f20faa8.dwalton@acm.org> <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <15398.28461.605242.845831@guru.mired.org> <20011223161559.0f20faa8.dwalton@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:39 PM 12/23/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >P.S. You said in a previous post that the BSD license doesn't allow >something. I hope you've also noticed the BSD licensors allow almost >anything. I've never heard of even a polite request to stop >infringment, let alone cease-and-desist letters and lawsuit threats. >It seems to be understood by licensors and licensees alike as just a >way to put code into the public domain with a declaimer of liability >and request for attribution. Actually, when AT&T sued Berkeley for releasing BSD, Berkeley countersued, claiming that AT&T had violated the "advertising clause" when incorporating parts of BSD into System V. The result: the suit was quietly settled. So, this was one case in which the few restrictions in the BSD License came in handy. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 23 23:38:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C9F437B417 for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 23:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0890FBC8C; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 23:38:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11097; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 23:38:25 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBO7cZh28801; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 23:38:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "Mike Meyer" , dwalton@acm.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? References: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <15398.28461.605242.845831@guru.mired.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 23 Dec 2001 23:38:35 -0800 In-Reply-To: <15398.28461.605242.845831@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mike Meyer" writes: > [...] I.e. - if I take T and add S - neither of which I > hold a copyright to - I can legally use it without violating either > license, but I can't let anyone else have a copy. I suppose Mike knows this, but just to avoid misunderstanding: The reason he may not publish it is only because it would infringe the GPL (according to our interpretation). The BSD license allows the publication (but not the GPLing of the BSD'd code). Also, almost all GPL licensors allow it in practice (often at the price of mislabeling the whole work as a GPL'd work). P.S. I'm going to try using "publish" instead of "distribute" (the GPL's term) because "publishing" is a more accurate term for the copyright being mentioned, which 17 USC 106 ("Exclusive rights in copyrighted works") writes as "to distribute ... to the public". (Distribution among employees of a company is another question that is debated in GNU forums (it's generally allowed, but the GPL is unclear, as usual, and as it is about unpublished derivations), but I see no need to delve into it in a BSD forum.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 24 0:41:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A52337B41A for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 00:41:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478A0BD3B; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 00:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19328; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 00:41:00 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBO8fAl28808; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 00:41:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: dwalton@acm.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? References: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 24 Dec 2001 00:41:10 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> Message-ID: Lines: 72 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Walton writes: > A creates software S under BSDL. (Note that the BSDL does not grant > permission to alter the license, a right which is reserved for the author > by default, contrary to popular slashdot belief.) > B creates software T under GPL. (Assuming "use" means something like "derive from and publish".) > 1. A decides to include T into S, but does not change the license on S. > One of two possibilities exists: > a. A is in violation of the GPL by not relicensing S and may not > legally use T. True, and lawsuit threat is usually settled by GPLing of S. > b. Because A is the author of S, A might be considered to have > implicitly licensed S under GPL, regardless of A's intentions. > This example illustrates the dangers that FreeBSD flirts with and > (hopefully) avoids. Yup. > 2. B decides to include S into T, but does not arrange for A to release S > under GPL. This causes two violations: > a. B has violated the copyright of A by altering the license and may > not legally use S. Except that B hasn't really altered A's license. B is likely to even have accompanied the derivative with a copy of the BSDL. B has merely deceptively labeled the whole program as being under the GPL. I don't know what legal sanctions, if any, there are for that deception, especially when notice of the other copyright and BSDL is made somewhere in the documentation or code. (Note that the BSDL permits comingling of code without notice of the owner of specific code, which results in it being done to an extent that such designations of owners is not even possible. So even without the deception, the effect would be much the same, namely GPL infection. :-). > b. B has violated the GPL by not releasing ALL the code under GPL. In some sense, maybe, but he can't sue himself. > 3. C creates a new software U, which is a combination of S and T, but > does not arrange for A to release S under GPL. Once more, two violations: > a. C has violated the copyright of A by altering the license and may > not legally use S. See 2a. > b. C has violated the GPL by not releasing ALL the code under GPL. True. > I find it mildly entertaining that the GPL makes it so difficult to use > GPL software without violating GPL. This is freedom? And given that the > GPL requires an entire work to be published under GPL, even the parts from > other authors, how can any license be considered "GPL-compatible"? Good question. I suppose that most GPL'ers would say it's because the GPL means something different than what you think it means. Like that "on the terms of this License" only means that the added-in code's real license must permit redistribution of the source (or something). ??? > But I have to wonder... Linux (among many other projects) has borrowed > code from BSD. If, as I suspect, relicensing was not arranged, doesn't > that mean that Linux is in violation of both the authors' copyrights and > the GPL itself? Only of the GPL licensors' copyrights, it seems to me, and they'r not complaining. There are likely to be some violations of the BSDL's very- easy-to-satisfy terms, but the BSDL'ers aren't complaining either. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 24 3:24:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792AA37B405 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 03:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from thinkpad770z.davidcamp.net ([216.103.90.137]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GOU00GEPIBYPY@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 03:23:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 03:23:52 -0800 From: Dave Walton Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? In-reply-to: To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: dwalton@acm.org Message-id: <20011224032352.24d6cbff.dwalton@acm.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.6.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <15398.28461.605242.845831@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23 Dec 2001 23:38:35 -0800, swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) wrote: > P.S. I'm going to try using "publish" instead of "distribute" (the > GPL's term) because "publishing" is a more accurate term for the > copyright being mentioned, which 17 USC 106 ("Exclusive rights in > copyrighted works") writes as "to distribute ... to the public". Sounds like a good approach. It nicely clarifies your company-internal distribution example, since that is not publishing. (Though I'm sure the FSF would be quite happy to claim that triggers the GPL.) I'll have to try to remember to use "publish" myself. On 23 Dec 2001 22:39:45 -0800, swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) wrote: > Dave Walton writes: > > > When I wrote "use", I was thinking of something along the lines of > > "incorporate and distribute". > > And when Mike wrote "use" (in "Neither BSDL nor GPL place any > restrictions on *use* of the covered work."), he was apparently thinking > of something along the lines of "execute" (or maybe also "incorporate > and execute"). Let's all keep in mind that source code has many uses > and using just "use" is likely to be ambiguous or just wrong. I've seen people discuss "use" and "utilize" here before, but I've never done a good job of grasping the distinction. The dictionary hasn't been much help, either. Note to self: Use "execute" and "publish" in the future instead of "use". > P.S. You said in a previous post that the BSD license doesn't allow > something. I hope you've also noticed the BSD licensors allow almost > anything. Yup. A nice bunch of people, on the whole. When I wrote that I was trying to create a clear summary of the interaction of the licenses as written, without regard to how strictly various authors do or do not enforce the terms. Enforcement is another matter, entirely up to the author (and which corporations tend to be more strict about than individuals). > I've never heard of even a polite request to stop > infringment, let alone cease-and-desist letters and lawsuit threats. I've heard of a few, in particularly blatant cases. But fortunately there has been fairly little need for such actions. > It seems to be understood by licensors and licensees alike as just a > way to put code into the public domain with a declaimer of liability > and request for attribution. It's fine for licensors to have that understanding. But I would suggest that it is, at best, bad manners for licensees to assume that is the understanding. Without a clear statement otherwise from the licensor, one should always treat the letter of the license as the true intent. To do otherwise would show a serious lack of respect for the rights of the licensor. If the intent really was pseudo-public domain then nothing is lost by asking, but if that wasn't the intent and you don't ask things could get unpleasant. Especially when dealing with corporations. > Along the same lines, note that what the GPL seems to say is often > significantly different from what GPL licensors say it says and often > from what they insist upon (also often different things). That's because none of them have a clue what it says anyway. What percentage of GPL users (oops, publishers) do you suppose have actually READ the thing? > The guys that ignore all the fine print might have the right idea, > since there's little that one can do about it anyway. I loathe fine print. Which is why the BSDL so nice! On 24 Dec 2001 00:41:10 -0800, swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) wrote: > Dave Walton writes: > > > 2. B decides to include S into T, but does not arrange for A to release S > > under GPL. This causes two violations: > > a. B has violated the copyright of A by altering the license and may > > not legally use S. > > Except that B hasn't really altered A's license. B is likely to even > have accompanied the derivative with a copy of the BSDL. B has merely > deceptively labeled the whole program as being under the GPL. I don't > know what legal sanctions, if any, there are for that deception, > especially when notice of the other copyright and BSDL is made > somewhere in the documentation or code. Hmmm... I suppose that A might have some small claim, due to B's deception regarding the licensing of S. Especially if A felt it damaged his professional reputation for people to believe that S was under GPL, or something like that. > (Note that the BSDL permits > comingling of code without notice of the owner of specific code, which > results in it being done to an extent that such designations of owners > is not even possible. So even without the deception, the effect would > be much the same, namely GPL infection. :-). Now there is a good question. Say a file contains the BSDL and some code, and that file is included as part of a larger GPL work (ignore the potential GPL conflict there). In the absence of any ownership designation, wouldn't any changes made to that file have to be considered a part of the BSDL work? I suppose that's a question only a court could decide... > > b. B has violated the GPL by not releasing ALL the code under GPL. > > In some sense, maybe, but he can't sue himself. True, the violation would only be in spirit, since as the author of T the GPL does not apply to B. A sufficiently fanatical contributor to T might be able to sue on the grounds that B did not (and is unable to) provide full GPL source to the T(+S) derivative of that contributor's work. But that would be more of a variation on scenario 3. > > I find it mildly entertaining that the GPL makes it so difficult to use > > GPL software without violating GPL. This is freedom? And given that the > > GPL requires an entire work to be published under GPL, even the parts from > > other authors, how can any license be considered "GPL-compatible"? > > Good question. I suppose that most GPL'ers would say it's because the > GPL means something different than what you think it means. Like that > "on the terms of this License" only means that the added-in code's real > license must permit redistribution of the source (or something). ??? These are the same people you mentioned above who can't agree on what it says in the first place. > > But I have to wonder... Linux (among many other projects) has borrowed > > code from BSD. If, as I suspect, relicensing was not arranged, doesn't > > that mean that Linux is in violation of both the authors' copyrights and > > the GPL itself? > > Only of the GPL licensors' copyrights, it seems to me, and they'r not > complaining. There are likely to be some violations of the BSDL's very- > easy-to-satisfy terms, but the BSDL'ers aren't complaining either. True, but that might be a fun tidbit to toss out when some rabid GPL'er is going on and on about their favorite distribution of their unforked pet OS... :) Dave -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 24 7:22:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5657E37B405 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 07:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 31790 invoked by uid 100); 24 Dec 2001 15:22:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15399.18473.712730.309116@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:22:17 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: dwalton@acm.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? In-Reply-To: <09n109t93i.109@localhost.localdomain> References: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <15398.28461.605242.845831@guru.mired.org> <20011223161559.0f20faa8.dwalton@acm.org> <09n109t93i.109@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen types: > Dave Walton writes: > > Rats. I knew there was going to be a mistake in my wording somewhere. > > When I wrote "use", I was thinking of something along the lines of > > "incorporate and distribute". > And when Mike wrote "use" (in "Neither BSDL nor GPL place any > restrictions on *use* of the covered work."), he was apparently thinking > of something along the lines of "execute" Actually, I meant pretty much anything that doesn't include exercising a copyright. > Let's all keep in mind that source code has many uses > and using just "use" is likely to be ambiguous or just wrong. Mike's > statement (without the BSDL part) is common misleading GNU-speak used in > their propaganda. The fact is that both BSDL and GPL place restrictions > on the use of the covered work. If not, we would say the work is in the > public domain. The BSDL - as it exists in /COPYRIGHT - places no restrictions whatsoever on the use of the software if you don't exercise a copyright. It *does* place restrictions on mentioning features and use of the software - which have since been retracted - and on the use of the name of the University. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 24 9:14:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 32D0B37B405 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19a (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 01339049 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 12:13:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C2761E2.E2A4CAE4@pythonemproject.com> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:12:03 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Does Christmas Violate the GPL? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just kidding. Merry Christmas, or just plain happy holidays! Rob. -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 24 9:28:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D440737B417 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:28:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-309.wobline.de [212.68.71.30]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBOHS5823542; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:28:06 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBOHU8X55678; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:30:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBOHSsZ88985; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:28:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:28:54 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Rob Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Does Christmas Violate the GPL? Message-ID: <20011224182854.A88928@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: Rob , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" References: <3C2761E2.E2A4CAE4@pythonemproject.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C2761E2.E2A4CAE4@pythonemproject.com>; from rob@pythonemproject.com on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 09:12:03AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.5-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 4.5-PRERELEASE X-Machine-Uptime: 6:25PM up 9 hrs, 1 user, load averages: 0.14, 0.05, 0.02 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 09:12:03AM -0800, Rob stood up and spoke: > Just kidding. From what I have read here duing the past week, it's *very well* possible that christmas violates the GPL. Seems that there's not much that can be done that does not violate it... > Merry Christmas, or just plain happy holidays! Rob. Same to you ;-) Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 24 11:10:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B6937B416 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:10:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02004; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 12:10:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011224120539.01ce4170@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 12:10:27 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), dwalton@acm.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:41 AM 12/24/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Except that B hasn't really altered A's license. B is likely to even >have accompanied the derivative with a copy of the BSDL. B has merely >deceptively labeled the whole program as being under the GPL. I don't >know what legal sanctions, if any, there are for that deception, >especially when notice of the other copyright and BSDL is made >somewhere in the documentation or code. (Note that the BSDL permits >comingling of code without notice of the owner of specific code, which >results in it being done to an extent that such designations of owners >is not even possible. So even without the deception, the effect would >be much the same, namely GPL infection. :-). This brings up a larger issue. Is it ethical or even legal for someone to combine GPLed code with BSDLed code and slap the GPL on the result without stating which lines are really BSDLed? It seems to me that even if the BSDL is also present in the source file, a person has violated the BSDL by doing this because the BSDL requires that the license must follow the code. If it's no longer clear which code in the file is covered by the BSDL, the license has effectively been separated from the code it's supposed to stay with. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 24 12:45:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07CD937B41C for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 12:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B83BCE5; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 12:45:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18355; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 12:45:38 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBOKji229389; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 12:45:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? References: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011224120539.01ce4170@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 24 Dec 2001 12:45:44 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011224120539.01ce4170@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 44 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > This brings up a larger issue. Is it ethical or even legal for someone > to combine GPLed code with BSDLed code and slap the GPL on the result > without stating which lines are really BSDLed? It seems to me that > even if the BSDL is also present in the source file, a person has > violated the BSDL by doing this because the BSDL requires that the > license must follow the code. If it's no longer clear which code > in the file is covered by the BSDL, the license has effectively been > separated from the code it's supposed to stay with. Looking at the BSDL, one sees no indication that the licensor cares about that. It seems to only care that the liability declaimer (FWIW) be available to those that receive the code, and maybe some attribution, and those goals are achieved even without very detailed copyright claims. Note that the actual "license" (the permissions) part of the BSDL isn't required to be propagated. I've often wondered if the BSDL (or any license) isn't effectively "viral" when mix-license code is comingled without low-level ID. How does a new owner of a copy know that the BSDL's terms don't apply to the non-BSDL parts? Messy. The BSDL only requires that "Redistributions of source code must retain...". That's rather fuzzy, but I doubt that it requires explicit notification of each piece of original code. And in some derivative work, say, where variable names have been changed and expressions rearragned, it's not even possible to point to what each copyright owner owns independently of the other in the derivative. Some licenses require such designation. I'll bet they put a real crimp in their usefulness in derivations, when they are not simply ignored. Is it ethical (if the GPL allowed it)? I think that has to be judged on a case-by-case basis. Take 1000 BSDL'd functions, add your main(), throw them all in one file with two copyright statements and two offers of license, and I'd call that legal, but unethical. Doing the same with 1 BSDL'd function and 1000 of your own, and I don't think so. The more and better the attribution (of copyright ownership AND authorship, if different), the better, but only to some point of reasonableness. The issue is not much different with multiple owners of BSDL'd code. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 24 12:59:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from loops.nilpotent.org (loops.nilpotent.org [12.17.163.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 811B937B41B for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 12:59:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 77570 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2001 20:59:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (root@63.100.207.22) by loops.nilpotent.org with QMTP; 24 Dec 2001 20:59:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 876 invoked by uid 500); 24 Dec 2001 20:56:59 -0000 To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: blymn@baesystems.com.au Subject: Re: quake2 on freebsd. From: fn@hungry.org (Faried Nawaz) References: <20011223220536.A76248@nilpotent.org> X-nil: X-Useless-info: System load is 0.00 with 60 processes active. X-Neuromancer: Leningrad, Kiev, Siberia. X-Linux-Version: I always use 1.0.3. Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 01:56:37 +0459 Message-ID: Lines: 26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The client now works under X (I was munmap'ing incorrectly; stuff wasn't aligned with page boundaries), but no sound. Also, there's a weird display bug: see http://web.nilpotent.org/tmp/xwd.jpg (81k, 1024x768). However, it seems like the quakeforge people broke the source tree. So, - grab quake2 from their cvsroot (see http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=25238+0+current/freebsd-chat) - apply http://web.nilpotent.org/tmp/q2-freebsd-diff1.txt - cd into quake2 and untar http://web.nilpotent.org/tmp/q2-freebsd-diff2.tar.gz - cd into the freebsd directory, and type gmake. You will need ports/graphics/Mesa3 to build it (or you can hack the makefile to not build ref_gl.so -- a trivial hack). Run it as "./quake2 +set vid_ref softx" the first time. If you fix q2-freebsd-diff1.txt in the obvious way, it should also build on NetBSD/i386. My copy of Quake II is somewhere in the mail, so I've tested it with the q2 demo. Hmm. And I just noticed -- multiplayer q2 has problems, but only with the softx render. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 24 13: 2:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C443837B41C for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03024; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 14:02:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011224135933.01c3d710@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 14:02:01 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011224120539.01ce4170@localhost> <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011224120539.01ce4170@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:45 PM 12/24/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Looking at the BSDL, one sees no indication that the licensor cares >about [keeping the license on the code]. It's implicit in the statement that the license must follow the source code. If you can't tell to which code the license applies, the two have essentially been separated. >The BSDL only requires that "Redistributions of source code must >retain...". That's rather fuzzy, but I doubt that it requires explicit >notification of each piece of original code. If it doesn't, it has no meaning. It's like saying, "This license applies to some of the code in here, but we won't tell you WHICH code." A great lot of good that does someone who's trying to use it.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 24 13:51:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 045EB37B41A for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17F5BD3A; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:50:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28775; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:50:54 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBOLox329395; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:50:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: dwalton@acm.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? References: <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <15398.28461.605242.845831@guru.mired.org> <20011224032352.24d6cbff.dwalton@acm.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 24 Dec 2001 13:50:59 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011224032352.24d6cbff.dwalton@acm.org> Message-ID: <6w666wthh8.66w@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 59 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Walton writes: > On 23 Dec 2001 22:39:45 -0800, swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) wrote: [snip] > > > > I've seen people discuss "use" and "utilize" here before, but I've never > done a good job of grasping the distinction. The dictionary hasn't been > much help, either. I wasn't aware of any distinction until just now. My dictionary (AH) says "use", "employ", and "utilize" are synonyms, with "employ" especially appropriate in the context of hiring & jobs. It says: "Utilize" is especially appropriate in the narrower sense of making useful or productive what has been otherwise or of expanding productivity by finding new uses for the thing or person involved. All are equal in our context, it seems to me. The only problem is in not considering all possible uses when using the word: excuting, deriving from, publishing, etc. 17 USC doesn't help as it popularized the word in section 117 saying it's OK to make another copy of an owned copy if it "is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner" (and OK for archiving). But 17 USC specifies the "use" much more tightly than most people who use the word. > > Along the same lines, note that what the GPL seems to say is often > > significantly different from what GPL licensors say it says and often > > from what they insist upon (also often different things). > > That's because none of them have a clue what it says anyway. Not entirely. I particularly had in mind Stallman when I wrote that. Of course, it might be because we/I misunderstand the GPL, and in any case, one must be prepared to deal with how others understand it. > > (Note that the BSDL permits > > comingling of code without notice of the owner of specific code, which > > results in it being done to an extent that such designations of owners > > is not even possible. So even without the deception, the effect would > > be much the same, namely GPL infection. :-). > > Now there is a good question. Say a file contains the BSDL and some code, > and that file is included as part of a larger GPL work (ignore the > potential GPL conflict there). In the absence of any ownership > designation, wouldn't any changes made to that file have to be considered > a part of the BSDL work? I suppose that's a question only a court could > decide... Make it easier. Part is BSDL'd and part is X11L'd. Still messy. I'll try to remember to run this by a lawyer I see at LUG meetings sometimes. Maybe one would be able to consider the work a "joint work" (another 17 USC 101 term) which one uses under license from both owners. When they offer different licenses, one accepts both and lives within the (worst) conditions of both, and when publishing derivations, the will carry both licenses, plus maybe one's own. Note that the licenses would combine in a kind of "AND" rather than "OR", while their conditions combine in a kind of "OR" rather than "AND"; a condition by one licensor would apply to the whole joint work. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 24 15:57:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D3F237B405 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:57:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2667FBD2F; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:57:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14240; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:57:40 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBONvjh29407; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:57:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does Linux violate the GPL? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011224120539.01ce4170@localhost> <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <20011223153232.4b562a74.dwalton@acm.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011224120539.01ce4170@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011224135933.01c3d710@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 24 Dec 2001 15:57:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011224135933.01c3d710@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 46 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 01:45 PM 12/24/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > >Looking at the BSDL, one sees no indication that the licensor cares > >about [keeping the license on the code]. That editorial insertion is broader than what I said, IIRC. Maybe I should have reversed it: The BSDL seems to not care about keeping the license off other code (because that may be legally ignored anyway). The BSDL has nothing to prevent ownership confusion, nor does law. > It's implicit in the statement that the license must follow the > source code. If you can't tell to which code the license applies, > the two have essentially been separated. The statement: "Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice...". That doesn't imply that the code must be kept separately identified from others' code. The condition seems easily satisfied by the deriver adding his own copyright statement and offer of license to his work in the derivative. Also, the BSDL doesn't even say the license must follow the source code. It says the copyright notice, list of conditions, and liability declaimer must follow it. (I wonder why, because the license follows it whether or not a copy of it's text does.) > >The BSDL only requires that "Redistributions of source code must > >retain...". That's rather fuzzy, but I doubt that it requires explicit > >notification of each piece of original code. > > If it doesn't, it has no meaning. It's like saying, "This license > applies to some of the code in here, but we won't tell you WHICH > code." A great lot of good that does someone who's trying to use > it.... Sure it would have meaning. People would be put on notice that the work is owned, in part, by someone and how he is permitting you to use it. People would be warned that parts of it are offered "as-is" without warrantee and without liability. (Whether or not any of that would have much value in court.) That's enough meaning for most BSDL licensors. I agree that it CAN leave derivatives useless for further deriving, but most of the blame goes to the deriver who doesn't label things well. You can only blame the original BSDL'er for giving people more freedom than you seem to think he should. Beware GNU-think; it's insidious. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 25 14:16:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D82837B416 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from doc@localhost) by pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBPMLq131782 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 25 Dec 2001 23:21:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from doc@lublin.t1.pl) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 23:21:52 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Dos -> Unix conversion Message-ID: <20011225232152.A31765@lublin.t1.pl> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, are there any programs which allow that, in baseinstall? (except perl, maybe :) -- :: Micha� Pasternak :: bazy danych, serwisy internetowe :: http://lublin.t1.pl :: +48606570000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 25 18:26:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F3437B405 for ; Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F732BCB5; Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07419; Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:26:08 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBQ2RS800728; Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:27:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dos -> Unix conversion References: <20011225232152.A31765@lublin.t1.pl> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 25 Dec 2001 18:27:28 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011225232152.A31765@lublin.t1.pl> Message-ID: <5yg05y7m27.05y@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 6 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > are there any programs which allow that, in baseinstall? Assuming that you only want to convert text files, look for /usr/ports/converters/unix2dos/ which includes dos2unix. And archives provide many other ways to do the conversion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 1:27:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sv07e.atm-tzs.kmjeuro.com (sv07e.atm-tzs.kmjeuro.com [193.81.94.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076F337B416 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 01:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by sv07e.atm-tzs.kmjeuro.com (8.11.5/8.11.4) id fBQ9RmW58417 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:27:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from k.joch@kmjeuro.com) Received: from karl (674e638b450e3311eb87cfdadd3f4fca@adsl.ooe.kmjeuro.com [193.154.186.21]) (authenticated) by sv07e.atm-tzs.kmjeuro.com (8.11.5/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fBQ9Rea58218 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:27:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from k.joch@kmjeuro.com) Message-ID: <00da01c18def$b1637530$0a05a8c0@ooe.kmjeuro.com> From: "Karl M. Joch" To: Subject: programming language suggestions? Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:28:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X--virus-scanner: scanned for Virus and dangerous attachments on sv07e.atm-tzs.kmjeuro.com (System Setup/Maintainance: http://www.ctseuro.com/) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, we are in planing of moving our accounting system (www.nium.at) on a new level. i am looking for suggestions on a programming language which is able too: - compile on freebsd, linux and windows (optional) - has toolkits for character gui and graphical gui - is able to access sql databases, if possible without wrapper - is not on the low level like C - is not an interpreter, means it must compile binaries - is GPL or at least with low cost runtime licences - is already popular, means there should be active development on the compiler i would prefer cobol or some 4gl rapid development system. thanks for any suggestions. -- -- Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gruessen, Karl M. Joch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 3:30:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF3A37B419 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 03:30:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 16JCGo-0008Zd-00; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:30:50 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id fBQBUo120236; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:30:50 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:30:49 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Brooks Davis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who writes the esoteric scientific Unix apps? Message-ID: <20011226113049.A20162@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20011214170714.A13736@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011214095354.A18441@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20011214095354.A18441@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu>; from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 09:53:54AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I saw a TV program yesterday about avalanche prediction. The were using a very sophisticated 3D modeling program that illustrated the forces and velocities involved in such a complex process. I was able to get a closer look, and the app was running on a Sun workstation. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 3:50:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A9137B405; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 03:50:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) id fBQBo1Q14988; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:50:01 +0100 (MET) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBQBktQ08036; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:46:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:46:55 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: experiences (Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) Message-ID: <20011226114655.GA7717@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-PRERELEASE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jonathan, good idea, I alway wanted to donate something, so I welcome the new paying method, because sending a cheque was for me always something like a show stopper in doing... But now after trying to donate something through paypal I gave up in the middle of this time consuming process that forces you to do things you initially didn't want or are not prepared to do for the single aim to donate money. Things I had to do: - register - get an international account since I'm not US citicen - was forced to verify a paypal card number - was forced to be charged with $1.94 for this paypal card verification am not sure for what they wanted to charge me $1.94. For the card ? The verification ? Then they claim you get the money back to your account ... Well, then why they try to charge me at all ???? Most annoying is, that they 1st tell you, that you don't have to to the paypal card verification, if the money you want to send is below $100. This is the case for me, I entered $ 50 a page ago. But also its not necessary the continue button leads you to the information, that you should now proceed with the card verification process with the charging of $1.94. I'm sorry, but no way with paypal. Only wanted to write this as an experience report... BTW: Merry X'mas Andreas /// --=20 Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD Need a magic printfilter today ? http://www.apsfilter.org/ Songs from our band >> 64Bits << http://www.64bits.de Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.ht= ml --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8Kbiud3o+lGxvbLoRAnlkAJ9R2+6REk2FeaJIsg8+mN+jvZ6V7gCgiWQV kMdGnV9a2h131PT+ICEK4wU= =OYJL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 4:10:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D013E37B405; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 04:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) id fBQCA4N17046; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:10:04 +0100 (MET) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBQBx4W08383; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:59:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:59:04 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: well already have been charged :-( (was Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) Message-ID: <20011226115904.GA8352@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-PRERELEASE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="G4iJoqBmSsgzjUCe" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --G4iJoqBmSsgzjUCe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, seems, as if they now already changed me money ... :-((((( Although I didn't finish the donation process ! I terminated when I first saw, I should be changed something additionally for a card I didn't want :-// I'm a little bit angry, because I wasn't prepared to be forced this way by an institute of your choice ! Or did I misunderstand something ? Now in the mail they tell me, I get additional $5 ... grrrr. So I end up with $6.95, partly from my money on a conto I didn't want to create initially :-/ Please help, I need some advice with this kind of service. Below the mail I got now ... Andreas /// +-- snip ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: service@paypal.com Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 03:12:30 -0800 To: andreas@FreeBSD.org Subject: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Dear Andreas Klemm, This is a reminder that we need you to confirm your PayPal membership. The credit card to which we sent the Membership Confirmation Number was added to your PayPal account on 26 December 2001, and ends in the last four digits 1888. Please follow the steps below to confirm your PayPal membership How to confirm your membership: PayPal has charged a $1.95 membership fee to the credit card you just registered. This $1.95 fee will be refunded to your PayPal account when you complete the membership confirmation process below: 1. In the item description section of your monthly credit card statement, a 4-digit PayPal Membership Confirmation Number will be printed next to the $1.95 charge. Check your monthly credit card statement to find your unique Membership Confirmation Number. 2. Click the link below and type in your unique Membership Confirmation Number: https://www.paypal.com/CC-CONFIRM If you access your credit card statement online, it may take up to 4 business days for your Membership Confirmation Number to appear. If you do not have online access to your credit card statement, please wait for your printed statement to be mailed to you.* After confirming your card, you will be able to use your credit card to send money with your credit card through PayPal. Remember, confirming your credit card is one of the requirements for receiving your $5 New Account bonus. Sincerely, +-- snip ---------------------------------------------------------------- --=20 Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD Need a magic printfilter today ? http://www.apsfilter.org/ Songs from our band >> 64Bits << http://www.64bits.de Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.ht= ml --G4iJoqBmSsgzjUCe Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8KbuHd3o+lGxvbLoRAhWOAJ40liRvwHFpQ0YYCYX5BuANtCzRfwCfWHn5 PiygXNibN/B/wYjaOy3UokQ= =iTyY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --G4iJoqBmSsgzjUCe-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 5: 1:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F2D37B41E; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 05:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) id fBQD14E22151; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:01:05 +0100 (MET) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBQCtni08922; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:55:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:55:49 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: service@paypal.com Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Message-ID: <20011226125549.GA8894@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <1009365150.7678@paypal.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1009365150.7678@paypal.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-PRERELEASE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear sirs and madams, I want to cancel my account and the whole transaction of $50 to the FreeBSD foundation. And please give me my $1.94 back immediately latest date is until December 31th 2001. Reason: You charged me $ 1.94 without my confirmation ! I only pressed a continue button (not a confirmation button to be charged a certain amount of money) on a webpage where you told, that transactions below $100 don't need a paypal card verification. After simply pressing continue I got the *first time* the information from you that you would charge me $ 1.94. Furthermore You tell me, after pay pal card registration, I would get charged it back to my account. But actually=20 - I never wanted to be charged $ 1.94 - I never gave you my o.k. to charge $ 1.94 - I would never have made the transaction of $50 through you if I would have known, that recommended is to confirm/get a card number and being charged automatically without confirmation. =20 After I saw this charging information, I immediately stopped everything and thought that nothing would happen, since I didn't confirm being charged $1.94. But now you write to me in the e-mail below, that I already have been charged. That's NOT FAIR ! I will immediately inform my VISA card support line and block the transaction. Immediately remove my account and all my personal data. I don't allow you to keep, store or resell it ! Thanks for your kooperation. Andreas Klemm On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 03:12:30AM -0800, service@paypal.com wrote: > Dear Andreas Klemm, >=20 > This is a reminder that we need you to confirm your PayPal membership. = =20 > The credit card to which we sent the Membership Confirmation Number=20 > was added to your PayPal account on 26 December 2001, and ends in=20 > the last four digits 1888. =20 >=20 > Please follow the steps below to confirm your PayPal membership=20 >=20 > How to confirm your membership: >=20 > PayPal has charged a $1.95 membership fee to the credit card you just=20 > registered. This $1.95 fee will be refunded to your PayPal account=20 > when you complete the membership confirmation process below: >=20 > 1. In the item description section of your monthly credit card statement= ,=20 > a 4-digit PayPal Membership Confirmation Number will be printed next= =20 > to the $1.95 charge. Check your monthly credit card statement to find= =20 > your unique Membership Confirmation Number.=20 >=20 > 2. Click the link below and type in your unique Membership Confirmation= =20 > Number: > =09 > https://www.paypal.com/CC-CONFIRM >=20 > If you access your credit card statement online, it may take up to=20 > 4 business days for your Membership Confirmation Number to appear. If you= =20 > do not have online access to your credit card statement, please wait for= =20 > your printed statement to be mailed to you.* >=20 > After confirming your card, you will be able to use your credit card to= =20 > send money with your credit card through PayPal.=20 >=20 > Remember, confirming your credit card is one of the requirements for=20 > receiving your $5 New Account bonus. >=20 > Sincerely, >=20 >=20 > PayPal Credit Card Services >=20 > *Note: PayPal strongly discourages users from calling their credit card= =20 > companies in order to obtain their PayPal Membership Confirmation Number= =20 > before receiving their monthly statements in the mail. If PayPal receives= a=20 > complaint from Visa, MasterCard, or your card issuer regarding your accou= nt, > your PayPal account may be permanently closed. >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > PROTECT YOUR PASSWORD >=20 > NEVER give your password to anyone. If anyone asks=20 > you for your password, please follow the Security=20 > Tips instructions on the PayPal.com website. > ----------------------------------------------------------------=20 >=20 Andreas /// --=20 Andreas Klemm Powered by Free= BSD My homepage ............................... http://people.FreeBSD.ORG/~andr= eas Apsfilter Homepage ........................ http://www.apsfilter.org/ Songs from our band >> 64Bits << ........ http://www.64bits.de Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff.. http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.h= tml --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8KcjUd3o+lGxvbLoRAhgUAJ9TLMuuKQf+pUN8nwRBby413GKsCwCeKlj5 KdDBPuVrI52oQ90YT485kqk= =usWd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 5:26:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 7C13037B417; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 05:26:51 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: andreas@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20011226115904.GA8352@titan.klemm.gtn.com> (message from Andreas Klemm on Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:59:04 +0100) Subject: Re: well already have been charged :-( (was Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) References: <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> <20011226115904.GA8352@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Message-Id: <20011226132651.7C13037B417@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 05:26:51 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andreas, thank you for your report on using PayPal. the FreeBSD mailing lists are probably not the place to enter into a detailed discussion on this. The Foundation opened a PayPal account at the recommendation of a number of individuals. so far, our experience with PayPal has been good. we expect that it will continue to be good. PayPal transfers money between its account holders. in order to donate money to the Foundation using PayPal, one needs a PayPal account. Part of creating a PayPal account is "tying" that account to a real money account from a bank...such as a checking account or a credit card account. From your report, i gather that for overseas residents, PayPal insists on a credit card...they then give you a $5 sign up bonus. PayPal is meant as a easy method of donation, particularly for those that find checks difficult for any of a variety of reasons. for the Foundation checks have the advantage that there is no service fee....we would welcome a check in place of a PayPal donation. Thank you for trying to donate to the Foundation. Jonathan M Bresler President, The FreeBSD Foundation To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 5:30:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0927937B417 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 05:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) id fBQDU6U25078 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:30:06 +0100 (MET) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBQDTJr09751 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:29:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:29:19 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: well already have been charged :-( (was Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) Message-ID: <20011226132919.GA9729@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> <20011226115904.GA8352@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011226115904.GA8352@titan.klemm.gtn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-PRERELEASE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another shitty thing is, that they don't answer your personal e-mail and lead you to a complaint form, which is limited to 700 characters ... Andreas /// --=20 Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD Need a magic printfilter today ? http://www.apsfilter.org/ Songs from our band >> 64Bits << http://www.64bits.de Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.ht= ml --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8KdCud3o+lGxvbLoRAjqSAJ4oSHMiwaBdHVrkO4THgG8a/tpCuACcD30J 3R6WArjMkTo7uSWLxdYOW20= =FIkX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 8: 8:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clink.schulte.org (clink.schulte.org [209.134.156.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E0837B41A; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from schulte-laptop.nospam.schulte.org (nb-65.netbriefings.com [209.134.134.65]) by clink.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC172440D; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:08:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20011226095556.01acc550@pop3s.schulte.org> X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:07:43 -0600 To: Andreas Klemm , "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: Christopher Schulte Subject: Re: experiences (Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20011226114655.GA7717@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:46 PM 12/26/2001 +0100, Andreas Klemm wrote: >Things I had to do: >- register As do all other paypal users. >- get an international account since I'm not US citicen Paypal is based in the USA.... thus you would be considered international. >- was forced to verify a paypal card number This is for security and fraud prevention. >- was forced to be charged with $1.94 for this paypal card verification > am not sure for what they wanted to charge me $1.94. > For the card ? The verification ? > Then they claim you get the money back to your account ... > Well, then why they try to charge me at all ???? Again, security. You will get it back. Come on. Relax. >Most annoying is, that they 1st tell you, that you don't have to >to the paypal card verification, if the money you want to send is >below $100. This is the case for me, I entered $ 50 a page ago. If so, it's a typo that should be corrected. Were there stipulations about the country of origin? Perhaps all international users must verify regardless of amount sent? >I'm sorry, but no way with paypal. Only wanted to write this as >an experience report... Unfortunately, you are in the minority. They claim to have 12 million members, and a great percentage probably find the service useful and painless. The initial setup might be a bit unwieldy, but the idea is you can then use paypal for many other things without going through the setup process again. As such, there are some 12 million people that can donate to the FreeBSD Foundation with no hassles. Click, enter login info, send. Not bad. >BTW: Merry X'mas Happy new year! > Andreas /// > >-- >Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD >Need a magic printfilter today ? http://www.apsfilter.org/ >Songs from our band >> 64Bits << http://www.64bits.de >Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.html -c To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 10:50:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.Alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D066537B405; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:50:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9511A3A244; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:50:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:50:16 -0800 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Christopher Schulte Cc: Andreas Klemm , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: experiences (Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) Message-ID: <20011226105016.E90222@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net References: <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> <20011226114655.GA7717@titan.klemm.gtn.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011226095556.01acc550@pop3s.schulte.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011226095556.01acc550@pop3s.schulte.org>; from schulte+freebsd@nospam.schulte.org on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 10:07:43AM -0600 Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 10:07:43AM -0600, Christopher Schulte wrote: > At 12:46 PM 12/26/2001 +0100, Andreas Klemm wrote: > >Things I had to do: > >- register > > As do all other paypal users. > > >- get an international account since I'm not US citicen > > Paypal is based in the USA.... thus you would be considered international. > > >- was forced to verify a paypal card number > > This is for security and fraud prevention. > > >- was forced to be charged with $1.94 for this paypal card verification > > am not sure for what they wanted to charge me $1.94. > > For the card ? The verification ? > > Then they claim you get the money back to your account ... > > Well, then why they try to charge me at all ???? > > Again, security. You will get it back. Come on. Relax. > > >Most annoying is, that they 1st tell you, that you don't have to > >to the paypal card verification, if the money you want to send is > >below $100. This is the case for me, I entered $ 50 a page ago. > > If so, it's a typo that should be corrected. Were there stipulations about > the country of origin? Perhaps all international users must verify > regardless of amount sent? > > >I'm sorry, but no way with paypal. Only wanted to write this as > >an experience report... > > Unfortunately, you are in the minority. They claim to have 12 million > members, and a great percentage probably find the service useful and > painless. The initial setup might be a bit unwieldy, but the idea is you > can then use paypal for many other things without going through the setup > process again. As such, there are some 12 million people that can donate > to the FreeBSD Foundation with no hassles. Click, enter login info, > send. Not bad. > > >BTW: Merry X'mas > > Happy new year! > > > Andreas /// > > > >-- > >Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD > >Need a magic printfilter today ? http://www.apsfilter.org/ > >Songs from our band >> 64Bits << http://www.64bits.de > >Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.html > > -c I have been lately hearing more and more horror stories about PayPal. For one, they are not FDIC insurred, so they can basicly do with your money what they want and get away with it. There are a few websites about their bad customer service, like Andreas mentioned, no way to directly contact them (neither email or phone), answers are often just form letters. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 11:33:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A6637B405 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:33:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1cust163.tnt1.ogden.ut.da.uu.net ([63.39.40.163] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16JJnp-00071k-00; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:33:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2A2606.A2552442@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:33:26 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011220171739.J26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011220231021.A52651@prism.flugsvamp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Lemon wrote: > Either the someone can slap a GPL on the BSD code, in which this thread > has relevancy, or they cannot, in which case the whole thing is moot. Actually, he shot himself in the foot both ways. While it's true there would be no risk to FreeBSD in the second case (I believe that "compatible" exists only in the mind of RMS), it _does_ mean that there's no way to construct a legal combination for a distribution, which was one of the primary issues in the JFS debate that spawned this thread. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 11:34:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1294637B419 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:34:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 53635 invoked by uid 100); 26 Dec 2001 19:34:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15402.9783.683020.21288@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:34:15 -0600 To: ulf@Alameda.net Cc: Christopher Schulte , Andreas Klemm , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: experiences (Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) In-Reply-To: <20011226105016.E90222@seven.alameda.net> References: <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> <20011226114655.GA7717@titan.klemm.gtn.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011226095556.01acc550@pop3s.schulte.org> <20011226105016.E90222@seven.alameda.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ulf Zimmermann types: > I have been lately hearing more and more horror stories about PayPal. > For one, they are not FDIC insurred, so they can basicly do with your > money what they want and get away with it. There are a few websites > about their bad customer service, like Andreas mentioned, no way to > directly contact them (neither email or phone), answers are often just > form letters. I can third that. They are *not* a bank, and don't act like one. They double billed me for an item, running the transaction twice. When I contacted their complaint department, they said "we don't do that", and suggested I deal with my bank or the party in question. I had my bank reverse one of the charges, which caused paypal to lock my account so I couldn't move money out of it - but I could still move money into it. They then charged the credit card number I had initially set the account up on to get the money. After several rounds of this kind of thing, I finally got things straightened out, but they had taken money away from the customer who *should* have gotten it - even though I didn't have it either. At times I got email from them sent within hours of each other making contradictory claims. Last I heard, the poor guy who had been on the other end of the double billing hadn't gotten his money back, but he hasn't complained to me in the months since, so I assume they finally straightened that out as well. As far as I can tell, the goal of their "customer service" department is to lock money into their system for as long as possible. That there's no direct contact - even finding a snail-mail address is a pain - means you have to use their complaint form, with a day or more's delay for responses being typical. All the while they are making interest on your money. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 11:44:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 23D2E37B416 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 54030 invoked by uid 100); 26 Dec 2001 19:44:14 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15402.10382.236241.684307@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:44:14 -0600 To: "Karl M. Joch" Cc: Subject: Re: programming language suggestions? In-Reply-To: <00da01c18def$b1637530$0a05a8c0@ooe.kmjeuro.com> References: <00da01c18def$b1637530$0a05a8c0@ooe.kmjeuro.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Karl M. Joch types: > Hi, > > we are in planing of moving our accounting system (www.nium.at) on a new > level. i am looking for suggestions on a programming language which is able > too: > > - compile on freebsd, linux and windows (optional) > - has toolkits for character gui and graphical gui > - is able to access sql databases, if possible without wrapper > - is not on the low level like C > - is not an interpreter, means it must compile binaries > - is GPL or at least with low cost runtime licences > - is already popular, means there should be active development on the > compiler > > i would prefer cobol or some 4gl rapid development system. There is a cobol compiler in the ports tree. Eiffel sounds like what you want. The commercial package from eiffel.org does pretty much everything you want, except run on FreeBSD. There are compilers in the ports tree, so you could develop with the IDE on Linux or Windows, then move the code to FreeBSD. I do wonder why you insist on it not being an interpreter. It's not unheard of for applications to be come faster when moved to an interpreter, and being willing to use a GPL'ed compiler means you aren't afraid of having to ship source. Oh yeah - does Java count as compiled? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 11:48:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id EF30137B419; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:48:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: ulf@Alameda.net Cc: schulte+freebsd@nospam.schulte.org, andreas@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20011226105016.E90222@seven.alameda.net> (message from Ulf Zimmermann on Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:50:16 -0800) Subject: Re: experiences (Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) References: <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> <20011226114655.GA7717@titan.klemm.gtn.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011226095556.01acc550@pop3s.schulte.org> <20011226105016.E90222@seven.alameda.net> Message-Id: <20011226194821.EF30137B419@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:48:21 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ulf, We have also heard "things" about PayPal. Some people are quite satisfied, others are not. PayPal accounts are insured by TravelersInsurance up to $100,000. The Foundation does not maintain a balance with PayPal. All funds are transferred as soon as possible to the Foundation's FDIC insured bank account. jmb > > I have been lately hearing more and more horror stories about PayPal. > For one, they are not FDIC insurred, so they can basicly do with your > money what they want and get away with it. There are a few websites > about their bad customer service, like Andreas mentioned, no way to > directly contact them (neither email or phone), answers are often just > form letters. > > -- > Regards, Ulf. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 > You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 12:58:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [64.124.90.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088B737B416 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:58:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (adsl-67-112-21-26.ded.pacbell.net [67.112.21.26]) by krell.webweaver.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0CEB20F50; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:58:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011226125549.GA8894@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:02:30 -0800 (PST) From: Hodge Podge To: Andreas Klemm , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dude Get a life. Its 1.94. They do it to make sure its a real CC. They do give it back. Jeeze get over it. So much for charity. You must be a blast to split a meal tab with. Nicole On 26-Dec-01 Andreas Klemm wrote: > Dear sirs and madams, > > I want to cancel my account and the whole transaction > of $50 to the FreeBSD foundation. > > And please give me my $1.94 back immediately latest date is > until December 31th 2001. > > Reason: You charged me $ 1.94 without my confirmation ! > > I only pressed a continue button (not a confirmation button > to be charged a certain amount of money) on a webpage where you > told, that transactions below $100 don't need a paypal card > verification. > > After simply pressing continue I got the *first time* the information > from you that you would charge me $ 1.94. Furthermore You tell me, > after pay pal card registration, I would get charged it back to my > account. > > But actually > - I never wanted to be charged $ 1.94 > - I never gave you my o.k. to charge $ 1.94 > - I would never have made the transaction of $50 through you > if I would have known, that recommended is to confirm/get a > card number and being charged automatically without confirmation. > > After I saw this charging information, I immediately stopped everything > and thought that nothing would happen, since I didn't confirm being > charged $1.94. > > But now you write to me in the e-mail below, that I already have been > charged. That's NOT FAIR ! > > I will immediately inform my VISA card support line and block the > transaction. > > Immediately remove my account and all my personal data. > I don't allow you to keep, store or resell it ! > > Thanks for your kooperation. > > Andreas Klemm > > > On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 03:12:30AM -0800, service@paypal.com wrote: >> Dear Andreas Klemm, >> >> This is a reminder that we need you to confirm your PayPal membership. >> The credit card to which we sent the Membership Confirmation Number >> was added to your PayPal account on 26 December 2001, and ends in >> the last four digits 1888. >> >> Please follow the steps below to confirm your PayPal membership >> >> How to confirm your membership: >> >> PayPal has charged a $1.95 membership fee to the credit card you just >> registered. This $1.95 fee will be refunded to your PayPal account >> when you complete the membership confirmation process below: >> >> 1. In the item description section of your monthly credit card statement, >> a 4-digit PayPal Membership Confirmation Number will be printed next >> to the $1.95 charge. Check your monthly credit card statement to find >> your unique Membership Confirmation Number. >> >> 2. Click the link below and type in your unique Membership Confirmation >> Number: >> >> https://www.paypal.com/CC-CONFIRM >> >> If you access your credit card statement online, it may take up to >> 4 business days for your Membership Confirmation Number to appear. If you >> do not have online access to your credit card statement, please wait for >> your printed statement to be mailed to you.* >> >> After confirming your card, you will be able to use your credit card to >> send money with your credit card through PayPal. >> >> Remember, confirming your credit card is one of the requirements for >> receiving your $5 New Account bonus. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> PayPal Credit Card Services >> >> *Note: PayPal strongly discourages users from calling their credit card >> companies in order to obtain their PayPal Membership Confirmation Number >> before receiving their monthly statements in the mail. If PayPal receives a >> complaint from Visa, MasterCard, or your card issuer regarding your account, >> your PayPal account may be permanently closed. >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> PROTECT YOUR PASSWORD >> >> NEVER give your password to anyone. If anyone asks >> you for your password, please follow the Security >> Tips instructions on the PayPal.com website. >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > Andreas /// > > -- > Andreas Klemm Powered by > FreeBSD > My homepage ............................... > http://people.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas > Apsfilter Homepage ........................ http://www.apsfilter.org/ > Songs from our band >> 64Bits << ........ http://www.64bits.de > Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff.. > http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.html ******* |\ __ /| (`\ ******* * * | o_o |__ ) ) * * * * // \\ * * * Nicole Harrington | AKA Hodge Podge * ----------------------(((---(((-------------------------------- HomePage http://www.unixgirl.com/ DangerMouse Site  http://www.dangermouse.org/ Photography Site http://www.deviantimages.com/ Music Stuff http://www.mp3.com/signals ** Being Silent - Is Agreeing ** -- We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams. --Willy Wonka, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 13:45:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6EF437B417; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fBQLjNk24981; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:45:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:46:41 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal In-Reply-To: <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: <20011226164511.Q23479-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 25 Dec 2001, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > The FreeBSD Foundation is pleased to announce that it is now accepting > credit card donations via PayPal. Donations can be made via the > Foundation's home page (http://freebsdfoundation.org/#donations) or > direct from PayPal (http://www.paypal.com). The Foundation's account > with PayPal is "donations@freebsdfoundation.org". Have you seen nopaypal.com? After reading that site I don't think I am going to use paypal anymore. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 13:53:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C05D737B405 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:53:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23693 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:52:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:52:43 -0700 To: chat@freeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andreas: It's actually worse than that. PayPal doesn't stop at wanting your credit card information. It also hectors you to provide it with your bank account information, and doesn't let you do most things you might want to do with their service unless you provide it. Providing your bank account number is very dangerous both from a security and privacy standpoint and as a consumer issue. While the law (at least in the United States) provides you with good protection against fraudulent credit card transactions, the protection against improper direct debits from your checking account is much weaker. Your account can be cleaned out and it can take months for you to get your money back (if you ever do). I don't advise that anyone sign up with PayPal. If I want to give to the FreeBSD Foundation, I'll take the time to write a check. --Brett At 05:55 AM 12/26/2001, Andreas Klemm wrote: >Dear sirs and madams, > >I want to cancel my account and the whole transaction >of $50 to the FreeBSD foundation. > >And please give me my $1.94 back immediately latest date is >until December 31th 2001. > >Reason: You charged me $ 1.94 without my confirmation ! > >I only pressed a continue button (not a confirmation button >to be charged a certain amount of money) on a webpage where you >told, that transactions below $100 don't need a paypal card >verification. > >After simply pressing continue I got the *first time* the information >from you that you would charge me $ 1.94. Furthermore You tell me, >after pay pal card registration, I would get charged it back to my >account. > >But actually >- I never wanted to be charged $ 1.94 >- I never gave you my o.k. to charge $ 1.94 >- I would never have made the transaction of $50 through you > if I would have known, that recommended is to confirm/get a > card number and being charged automatically without confirmation. > >After I saw this charging information, I immediately stopped everything >and thought that nothing would happen, since I didn't confirm being >charged $1.94. > >But now you write to me in the e-mail below, that I already have been >charged. That's NOT FAIR ! > >I will immediately inform my VISA card support line and block the >transaction. > >Immediately remove my account and all my personal data. >I don't allow you to keep, store or resell it ! > >Thanks for your kooperation. > > Andreas Klemm > > >On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 03:12:30AM -0800, service@paypal.com wrote: >> Dear Andreas Klemm, >> >> This is a reminder that we need you to confirm your PayPal membership. >> The credit card to which we sent the Membership Confirmation Number >> was added to your PayPal account on 26 December 2001, and ends in >> the last four digits 1888. >> >> Please follow the steps below to confirm your PayPal membership >> >> How to confirm your membership: >> >> PayPal has charged a $1.95 membership fee to the credit card you just >> registered. This $1.95 fee will be refunded to your PayPal account >> when you complete the membership confirmation process below: >> >> 1. In the item description section of your monthly credit card statement, >> a 4-digit PayPal Membership Confirmation Number will be printed next >> to the $1.95 charge. Check your monthly credit card statement to find >> your unique Membership Confirmation Number. >> >> 2. Click the link below and type in your unique Membership Confirmation >> Number: >> >> https://www.paypal.com/CC-CONFIRM >> >> If you access your credit card statement online, it may take up to >> 4 business days for your Membership Confirmation Number to appear. If you >> do not have online access to your credit card statement, please wait for >> your printed statement to be mailed to you.* >> >> After confirming your card, you will be able to use your credit card to >> send money with your credit card through PayPal. >> >> Remember, confirming your credit card is one of the requirements for >> receiving your $5 New Account bonus. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> PayPal Credit Card Services >> >> *Note: PayPal strongly discourages users from calling their credit card >> companies in order to obtain their PayPal Membership Confirmation Number >> before receiving their monthly statements in the mail. If PayPal receives a >> complaint from Visa, MasterCard, or your card issuer regarding your account, >> your PayPal account may be permanently closed. >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> PROTECT YOUR PASSWORD >> >> NEVER give your password to anyone. If anyone asks >> you for your password, please follow the Security >> Tips instructions on the PayPal.com website. >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > Andreas /// > >-- >Andreas Klemm Powered by FreeBSD >My homepage ............................... http://people.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas >Apsfilter Homepage ........................ http://www.apsfilter.org/ >Songs from our band >> 64Bits << ........ http://www.64bits.de >Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff.. http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 22:18:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 075FD37B416 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 22:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fBR6Ifr68323; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 07:18:41 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <004601c18e9e$54925e20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: , "Brett Glass" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 07:18:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org PayPal currently owes me over $400. They won't let me withdraw it, they won't let me transfer it, and they won't let me close the account. They operate out of a post-office box, and they send form replies to all my queries and ignore my faxes. Something is wrong with the company, IMO. And to think that they are planning an IPO. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett Glass" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 22:52 Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership > Andreas: > > It's actually worse than that. > > PayPal doesn't stop at wanting your credit card information. > It also hectors you to provide it with your bank account > information, and doesn't let you do most things you might > want to do with their service unless you provide it. > > Providing your bank account number is very dangerous both > from a security and privacy standpoint and as a consumer > issue. While the law (at least in the United States) provides > you with good protection against fraudulent credit card > transactions, the protection against improper direct debits > from your checking account is much weaker. Your account can be > cleaned out and it can take months for you to get your money > back (if you ever do). > > I don't advise that anyone sign up with PayPal. If I want > to give to the FreeBSD Foundation, I'll take the time to write > a check. > > --Brett > > At 05:55 AM 12/26/2001, Andreas Klemm wrote: > > >Dear sirs and madams, > > > >I want to cancel my account and the whole transaction > >of $50 to the FreeBSD foundation. > > > >And please give me my $1.94 back immediately latest date is > >until December 31th 2001. > > > >Reason: You charged me $ 1.94 without my confirmation ! > > > >I only pressed a continue button (not a confirmation button > >to be charged a certain amount of money) on a webpage where you > >told, that transactions below $100 don't need a paypal card > >verification. > > > >After simply pressing continue I got the *first time* the information > >from you that you would charge me $ 1.94. Furthermore You tell me, > >after pay pal card registration, I would get charged it back to my > >account. > > > >But actually > >- I never wanted to be charged $ 1.94 > >- I never gave you my o.k. to charge $ 1.94 > >- I would never have made the transaction of $50 through you > > if I would have known, that recommended is to confirm/get a > > card number and being charged automatically without confirmation. > > > >After I saw this charging information, I immediately stopped everything > >and thought that nothing would happen, since I didn't confirm being > >charged $1.94. > > > >But now you write to me in the e-mail below, that I already have been > >charged. That's NOT FAIR ! > > > >I will immediately inform my VISA card support line and block the > >transaction. > > > >Immediately remove my account and all my personal data. > >I don't allow you to keep, store or resell it ! > > > >Thanks for your kooperation. > > > > Andreas Klemm > > > > > >On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 03:12:30AM -0800, service@paypal.com wrote: > >> Dear Andreas Klemm, > >> > >> This is a reminder that we need you to confirm your PayPal membership. > >> The credit card to which we sent the Membership Confirmation Number > >> was added to your PayPal account on 26 December 2001, and ends in > >> the last four digits 1888. > >> > >> Please follow the steps below to confirm your PayPal membership > >> > >> How to confirm your membership: > >> > >> PayPal has charged a $1.95 membership fee to the credit card you just > >> registered. This $1.95 fee will be refunded to your PayPal account > >> when you complete the membership confirmation process below: > >> > >> 1. In the item description section of your monthly credit card statement, > >> a 4-digit PayPal Membership Confirmation Number will be printed next > >> to the $1.95 charge. Check your monthly credit card statement to find > >> your unique Membership Confirmation Number. > >> > >> 2. Click the link below and type in your unique Membership Confirmation > >> Number: > >> > >> https://www.paypal.com/CC-CONFIRM > >> > >> If you access your credit card statement online, it may take up to > >> 4 business days for your Membership Confirmation Number to appear. If you > >> do not have online access to your credit card statement, please wait for > >> your printed statement to be mailed to you.* > >> > >> After confirming your card, you will be able to use your credit card to > >> send money with your credit card through PayPal. > >> > >> Remember, confirming your credit card is one of the requirements for > >> receiving your $5 New Account bonus. > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> > >> PayPal Credit Card Services > >> > >> *Note: PayPal strongly discourages users from calling their credit card > >> companies in order to obtain their PayPal Membership Confirmation Number > >> before receiving their monthly statements in the mail. If PayPal receives a > >> complaint from Visa, MasterCard, or your card issuer regarding your account, > >> your PayPal account may be permanently closed. > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> PROTECT YOUR PASSWORD > >> > >> NEVER give your password to anyone. If anyone asks > >> you for your password, please follow the Security > >> Tips instructions on the PayPal.com website. > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > > > Andreas /// > > > >-- > >Andreas Klemm Powered by FreeBSD > >My homepage ............................... http://people.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas > >Apsfilter Homepage ........................ http://www.apsfilter.org/ > >Songs from our band >> 64Bits << ........ http://www.64bits.de > >Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff.. http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.html > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 22:45:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 30CF137B416 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 22:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 59778 invoked by uid 100); 27 Dec 2001 06:45:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15402.50047.407018.211685@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 00:45:19 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership In-Reply-To: <004601c18e9e$54925e20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <004601c18e9e$54925e20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > PayPal currently owes me over $400. They won't let me withdraw it, they > won't let me transfer it, and they won't let me close the account. They > operate out of a post-office box, and they send form replies to all my > queries and ignore my faxes. Something is wrong with the company, IMO. And > to think that they are planning an IPO. Check out . There are phone numbers and at least one email address for a real person that might help you get your money out of them. Their basic response to any stimulus is to keep you from taking money out of your account, though they'll gladly let people put more money in it. This makes fixing problems nearly impossible. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 23:30:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750AB37B41A for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 23:30:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) id fBR7U9C22690; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:30:09 +0100 (MET) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBR7Ka351001; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:20:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:20:36 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: "webform@paypal.com" , expectationsnotmet-67@paypal.com Subject: Re: Other:I:P:N:O: (KMM15982511V9911L0KM) Message-ID: <20011227072036.GD46822@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <200112262341.fBQNfTx00778@smtp-in.sc5.paypal.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200112262341.fBQNfTx00778@smtp-in.sc5.paypal.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-PRERELEASE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vni90+aGYgRvsTuO" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --vni90+aGYgRvsTuO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Customer Service, as I stated out I want to stop the whole transaction and close my account at your organization, because you charged me $ 1.94 without my confirmation. After this I lost trust in you completely. Thats no serious behaviour. Please confirm, that you removed all my data. Andreas /// On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 03:41:29PM -0800, webform@paypal.com wrote: > Dear Andreas, >=20 > Thank you for contacting PayPal. >=20 > I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused you. > International members must register and confirm a credit card in order to= =20 > send money through the PayPal service. PayPal requires card confirmation= =20 > so that we can ensure that the PayPal system is the safest online payment= =20 > system possible. >=20 > If you have already registered a credit card, then click on the "Confirm= =20 > Membership" link in your Account Overview and follow the instructions to= =20 > confirm your card.=20 >=20 > For confirmation purposes, PayPal will charge your credit card $1.95. Th= e=20 > charge will accompany a unique, randomly generated 4-digit Confirmation= =20 > Number. > =20 > Check your online or physical credit card statement. If you have online= =20 > access to your bank account, it usually takes approximately 2-3 business= =20 > days for the PayPal Confirmation Number to appear, depending on your=20 > issuing bank. If you do not have online access to your statement, then= =20 > wait until you receive your physical statement in the mail to check your= =20 > 4-digit unique PayPal Confirmation Number.=20 >=20 > Log into your PayPal Account and click on the link entitled "Confirm=20 > Membership" under the Account Activation box. You will be asked to enter= =20 > the 4-digit PayPal Confirmation Number displayed on your credit card=20 > statement.=20 >=20 > Note: PayPal strongly discourages users from calling their credit card=20 > companies in order to obtain PayPal Confirmation Numbers before receiving= =20 > their monthly statement in the mail. If PayPal receives a complaint from= =20 > Visa, MasterCard, Discover, American Express, or a card issuer regarding = a=20 > phone call to your credit card company to obtain PayPal Membership Number= s, > your PayPal Account will be permanently closed.=20 >=20 > For a visual display of how to find the card verification number, follow= =20 > these steps: >=20 > 1. Log into your PayPal Account at www.paypal.com. >=20 > 2. Click on the "Profile" link at the top of the page. >=20 > 3. Click on the "Credit Card" link on the left of the page. >=20 > 4. Click on the "Edit" button. On the next page click on the blue link= =20 > titled "Card Verification Number". >=20 > 5. A visual display of the back of a credit card will show you the=20 > location of the card verification number for your card. For American=20 > Express, a visual display of the front of a credit card will show you the= =20 > location of the card verification number. =20 >=20 > If you have had difficulty confirming your card through Random Debit, we= =20 > can manually confirm your card. If you would like to confirm your card= =20 > through our manual process, please fax us the following information: >=20 > 1. A cover page stating: Attention-International Account Manual=20 > Verification. To ensure that we can identify your account, include your= =20 > name and the email address you have attached to your account on this cove= r=20 > page. >=20 > 2. A copy of a photo ID with your name. >=20 > 3. A copy of your card statement that shows at least the last 4 digits o= f=20 > your card. >=20 > 4. A copy of the front and back of the credit card.=20 >=20 > Please fax this information to (402) 935-2237. >=20 > We appreciate your patience and cooperation during this process. It may= =20 > take up to 10 business days to review the information that you have=20 > provided. We will contact you after we have reviewed your documentation. >=20 > I looked into your account and was unable to find any transaction=20 > initiated. It is possible that you may have forgotten to submit your=20 > payment on the confirmation page. To check this, click the History subta= b=20 > and see if there is a record of the transaction. If there is no record,= =20 > then the transaction did not take place. You can create a new transactio= n=20 > by clicking the Send Money tab. Be sure to completely fill out the secur= e=20 > form and hit the "Continue" button at the bottom of the form. This will= =20 > bring up a confirmation form. Click the "Send Money" button to complete= =20 > this transaction.=20 >=20 > The specific sending limit applied to your account is dependant upon the= =20 > amount of information that can be verified before you complete the=20 > Membership Confirmation process. If some information cannot be verified= =20 > with your credit card issuing bank, you will receive a lower limit until= =20 > you are able to successfully complete the Membership Confirmation process= .=20 > Once you have completed the Membership Confirmation process, your sending= =20 > limit will be unlimited, subject to the credit available on the card. =20 >=20 > If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again. >=20 > Sincerely, > Nancy > PayPal Customer Service > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > We at PayPal would like to know how well this response accommodated your= =20 > request. Click on the appropriate link to send your feedback. We welcom= e=20 > your comments. >=20 > If this email exceeded your expectations: =20 > mailto:expectationsexceeded@paypal.com > =09 > If this email met your expectations: =20 > mailto:expectationsmet@paypal.com=09 >=20 > If this email did not meet your expectations: =20 > mailto:expectationsnotmet-67@paypal.com >=20 > Thank you for your feedback. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 >=20 > Original Message Follows: > ------------------------- >=20 > Form Message > email address: andreas@FreeBSD.org > first name: Andreas > last name: Klemm > account type: personal > verification status: Unverified > activity level: other > date established: 12/26/01 > country type: Germany > rc: no > message type: secure webform > message ID: Other:I:P:N:O: > customer message: Subject: 'You charged me $1.94 without my confirmation,= =20 > want to cancel transaction and remove my account immediately' > Message: 'I want to cancel my account and the whole transaction > of $50 to the FreeBSD foundation. Give me $1.94 back > immediately latest date is December 31th 2001 ! >=20 > Reason: You charged me $ 1.94 without my confirmation ! >=20 > I only pressed a continue button (not a confirmation button > to be charged a certain amount of money). On that page you > claimed, that transactions below $100 don't need paypal card. >=20 > After having to press continue I got the 1st time the info > that I'll be charged $ 1.94. >=20 > I immediately cancelled, but got the mail that I have=20 > been charged. >=20 > I'm loosing trust with your company. Give money back, > delete my account andreas@freebsd.org and remove all my > personal data and don't sell it !' >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --=20 Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD Need a magic printfilter today ? http://www.apsfilter.org/ Songs from our band >> 64Bits << http://www.64bits.de Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.ht= ml --vni90+aGYgRvsTuO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8KsvEd3o+lGxvbLoRAlPLAKCaufHN6oukj4W1EY1Mj4DU8BgZEgCePivp kYpMOGA9dOn3+FttSYtb0yQ= =V3A1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vni90+aGYgRvsTuO-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 26 23:54: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23D737B417 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 23:54:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fBR7rsn81200; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:53:54 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <007c01c18eab$a21dd360$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost><004601c18e9e$54925e20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15402.50047.407018.211685@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:53:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I currently have pending complaints with the FTC and the SEC (because PayPal is contemplating an IPO), also, so we'll see what that turns up. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Meyer" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 07:45 Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership > Anthony Atkielski types: > > PayPal currently owes me over $400. They won't let me withdraw it, they > > won't let me transfer it, and they won't let me close the account. They > > operate out of a post-office box, and they send form replies to all my > > queries and ignore my faxes. Something is wrong with the company, IMO. And > > to think that they are planning an IPO. > > Check out . There are phone numbers > and at least one email address for a real person that might help you > get your money out of them. > > Their basic response to any stimulus is to keep you from taking money > out of your account, though they'll gladly let people put more money > in it. This makes fixing problems nearly impossible. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 27 2:30: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8988937B419 for ; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 02:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-305.wobline.de [212.68.71.26]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBRATl806138; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 11:29:47 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (poison.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.5]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBRATiX73807; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 11:29:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBRATei01640; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 11:29:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 11:29:05 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership Message-ID: <20011227112905.C1527@tisys.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> <004601c18e9e$54925e20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <004601c18e9e$54925e20$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@atkielski.com on Thu, Dec 27, 2001 at 07:18:40AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD poison.ncptiddische.net 4.5-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 4.5-PRERELEASE X-Machine-Uptime: 11:05AM up 47 mins, 1 user, load averages: 0.31, 0.09, 0.03 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 27, 2001 at 07:18:40AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski stood up and spoke: > PayPal currently owes me over $400. They won't let me withdraw it, they > won't let me transfer it, and they won't let me close the account. They > operate out of a post-office box, and they send form replies to all my > queries and ignore my faxes. Something is wrong with the company, IMO. And > to think that they are planning an IPO. Indeed! read the various horror stories that can be found all over the web! Luckily, I never had anything to do with PayPal, but a relative of mine in the US had a similar problem to yours (they froze his account with about $700). Now, from what I have read, several states in the US are investigating against PayPal, and some users that have made bad experiences with them are now also planning to get legal help. I hope that the FreeBSD Foundation will not actually get in trouble by using PayPal's services... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 27 8:28:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EC5937B417 for ; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:28:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03124; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:28:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011227092550.01c87ae0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:28:32 -0700 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Confirm Your PayPal Membership In-Reply-To: <004601c18e9e$54925e20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011226145226.021974b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:18 PM 12/26/2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >PayPal currently owes me over $400. They won't let me withdraw it, they >won't let me transfer it, and they won't let me close the account. Uh-oh. This is a sign that they may not HAVE enough money to pay out all of their accounts. Better get yours out as soon as possible before the Ponzi scheme collapses or is shut down by the government. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 27 11:13:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D03F37B417 for ; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 11:13:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id fBRJDQ912345 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 06:13:26 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 06:13:26 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: paypal-secure scam site taken down Message-ID: <20011228061326.E997@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "A rather poor spam memo urging PayPal users to log into a spoof site and claim a five-dollar credit by 'updating their records' (i.e., giving up their credit-card details) appears not to have fooled many people." http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/23479.html -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 28 11:40:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5FEC37B41F; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) id fBSJeAZ26810; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 20:40:10 +0100 (MET) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBSJdB772343; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 20:39:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 20:39:11 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: peter@freebsd.org Subject: cvs question, cvs diff shows too much after repository copy of files Message-ID: <20011228193911.GA72232@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-PRERELEASE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi ! I need some help for my apsfilter project. I have a CVS question. After using configure for apsfilter I did a repository copy of some files. I use similar branch structure like FreeBSD, well I'm used to it ;-) So I copied Makefile,v to Makefile.in,v and so on for every of the about 10 files. Before the repository copy I was able to produce fine diffs within a branch cvs diff -u --new-file -r RELENG_7_1_0 -r RELENG_7 Now after the repository copy I get a huge diff ... The old files that I "cvs deleted" ("Makefile", ...) pop up again in the diff. Thats odd. What can I do ? Cc'd to Peter. Peter I assume you are pretty busy, but I hope that you perhaps have an easy answer. Thanks alot. Currently this breaks heavily my make-release script, that automatically creates diffs and such and creates .wml source of download page ... Thanks Andreas /// --=20 Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD Need a magic printfilter today ? http://www.apsfilter.org/ Songs from our band >> 64Bits << http://www.64bits.de Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.ht= ml --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8LMped3o+lGxvbLoRApUPAJ9Gz5AksTobaZ/SumesdBXiHFXoBwCfawAi VmRz30HMq8ljtcgce2iM9zQ= =Gcjw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 28 18: 6:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from joshua.nobaloney.net (joshua.nobaloney.net [63.108.93.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D223537B41E for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobaloney.net (adsl-64-170-53-238.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.170.53.238]) (authenticated) by ns1.ns-one.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBT27Rf03861; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:07:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2D25D3.7D3B8E94@nobaloney.net> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:09:23 -0800 From: Jeff Lasman Organization: nobaloney.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011220065451.02653af0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Try "commercial." GPLed software cannot be commercial, because it > cannot be the object of commerce. Yes, you can sell a disc with > the software ON it for money, but you cannot license the software > ITSELF for money. I'm sorry to answer this so late; I was offline for about a week and then had to catch up on "real" work . I'm not sure I agree with you, Brett, and I'd like you to explain or to point me in the right direction; it appears to me that you can distribute GPL software any way you want, including commercially, as long as you also make the source code available at no charge. Am I missing something? The reason for my curiosity is Red Hat's pricing plan for some of their new products, in the thousands-of-dollars range. I'm wondering if these disks can be copied and sold by others as so much other Red Hat output has. At the moment it's just an idle curiosity, but I'm always open to making money . Jeff -- Jeff Lasman Linux and Cobalt/Sun/RaQ Consulting nobaloney.net P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 voice: (909) 778-9980 * fax: (702) 548-9484 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 28 18:24:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF97837B422 for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id A364EFC3; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 20:24:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 20:24:06 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Lions and tigers and... chickens? Message-ID: <20011228202406.D9251@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So, I was sitting at the local deli having dinner this evening. And, being alone, there was nothing to do but think. Suddenly, I was struck by a thought. How _DOES_ a vfork(2) chicken cross the road? Well, the beauty of it is, he doesn't have to; you just pretend he's on the other side. It's a lot quicker and easier, but if you want him to flap his wings, you have to build a new chicken from the ground up. Musta been the mustard. Hmm.... -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 28 18:44:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from joshua.nobaloney.net (joshua.nobaloney.net [63.108.93.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FC437B416; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:44:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobaloney.net (adsl-64-170-53-238.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.170.53.238]) (authenticated) by ns1.ns-one.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBT2jCf05443; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:45:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2D2EAC.E0547468@nobaloney.net> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:47:08 -0800 From: Jeff Lasman Organization: nobaloney.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andreas Klemm , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: experiences (Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) References: <20011226013738.49F2E37B405@hub.freebsd.org> <20011226114655.GA7717@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andreas Klemm wrote: > Things I had to do: > - register > - get an international account since I'm not US citicen > - was forced to verify a paypal card number > - was forced to be charged with $1.94 for this paypal card verification > am not sure for what they wanted to charge me $1.94. > For the card ? The verification ? > Then they claim you get the money back to your account ... > Well, then why they try to charge me at all ???? They attempt a charge against your card to make sure it exists. That's the easiest way for them to do it; not necessarily the only way. When I signed up with them I don't remember the exact amount, but they only "held" it to get an approval number. They never completed the transaction, so eventually my bank credited it back. Some banks do that within 24 hours, others take days; it's not their fault. Not that this makes it right, but here in the U.S. if I buy gasoline at an Arco Station with any card (even a PayPal card), and if you use their outside pay stations, they hold $75 against your card before you pump a drop. (Mobil, at least in California, only holds $1.) > Most annoying is, that they 1st tell you, that you don't have to > to the paypal card verification, if the money you want to send is > below $100. This is the case for me, I entered $ 50 a page ago. Hmmm. I've always known you could send up to $100 without having a verified account, but I didn't know they didn't tell you. A lot of use PayPal because we can accept credit cards as well as use them. People pay me through PayPal, and that costs very little, and then I use my PayPal card to spend the money in my account OR move it to my bank account; whichever I prefer, and I don't need the expense of setting up a merchant account. Jeff -- Jeff Lasman Linux and Cobalt/Sun/RaQ Consulting nobaloney.net P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 voice: (909) 778-9980 * fax: (702) 548-9484 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 28 20:28:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C631837B419 for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 20:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22836; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 21:28:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011228211759.01d29460@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 21:28:32 -0700 To: Jeff Lasman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <3C2D25D3.7D3B8E94@nobaloney.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011220065451.02653af0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:09 PM 12/28/2001, Jeff Lasman wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: > >> Try "commercial." GPLed software cannot be commercial, because it >> cannot be the object of commerce. Yes, you can sell a disc with >> the software ON it for money, but you cannot license the software >> ITSELF for money. > >I'm sorry to answer this so late; I was offline for about a week and >then had to catch up on "real" work . > >I'm not sure I agree with you, Brett, and I'd like you to explain or to >point me in the right direction; it appears to me that you can >distribute GPL software any way you want, including commercially, as >long as you also make the source code available at no charge. Am I >missing something? Yep. Read the GPL. It says: >b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole >or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to >be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms >of this License. Again, you can charge for making someone a copy (though in this age of cheap CD-Rs and increasingly available high bandwidth connections it is less and less likely that people will be willing to pay you anything significant for doing that). But you cannot license the software ITSELF for money. That's a key goal of the GPL, as expressed in Stallman's "GNU Manifesto:" programmers are prohibited from creating or owning intellectual capital and thus are reduced to the status of poorly paid wage slaves. (This is the revenge Stallman sought to wreak on the "evil" programmers who ruined his life by departing the MIT AI Lab to start companies.... See Steven Levy's book "Hackers" for a full account.) >The reason for my curiosity is Red Hat's pricing plan for some of their >new products, in the thousands-of-dollars range. I'm wondering if these >disks can be copied and sold by others as so much other Red Hat output >has. I believe that some of Red Hat's software is commercial, whereas copies of other products that are GPLed are sold in a bundle with support. The company's business model isn't working, though. While it has turned a small profit during a few quarters of its existence, over its lifetime it has lost astronomical amounts of investors' money. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 28 22:16:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB2A037B417 for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 22:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3A25501; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 00:09:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-232.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.232]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E2950024; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 06:16:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id C432A3247; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 06:16:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9614C2B; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 06:16:19 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 06:16:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Subject: Re: Lions and tigers and... chickens? In-Reply-To: <20011228202406.D9251@over-yonder.net> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net X-Frames: I hate frames. Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum X-Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer(s). X-System-Requirements: It said `Requires Linux 5.2 or better' so I installed FreeBSD! X-Driving-The-Information-Superhighway: Asleep at the wheel. X-Too-Many-Headers: You betcha. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > Suddenly, I was struck by a thought. How _DOES_ a vfork(2) chicken cross > the road? > > Well, the beauty of it is, he doesn't have to; you just pretend he's on > the other side. It's a lot quicker and easier, but if you want him to > flap his wings, you have to build a new chicken from the ground up. LOL. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 28 22:26: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FBF837B416 for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 22:26:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id fBT6PtU20392; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:25:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:25:55 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lions and tigers and... chickens? Message-ID: <20011229172555.F997@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011228202406.D9251@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011228202406.D9251@over-yonder.net>; from fullermd@over-yonder.net on Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 08:24:06PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 08:24:06PM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > So, I was sitting at the local deli having dinner this evening. And, > being alone, there was nothing to do but think. > > Suddenly, I was struck by a thought. How _DOES_ a vfork(2) chicken cross > the road? > > Well, the beauty of it is, he doesn't have to; you just pretend he's on > the other side. It's a lot quicker and easier, but if you want him to > flap his wings, you have to build a new chicken from the ground up. And then you'd need 200 developers to argue about what colour to paint the chook shed. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 29 9:35:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC97237B41A; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 09:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fBTHYAF05815; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:34:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:35:51 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Christopher Schulte Cc: Andreas Klemm , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Subject: Re: experiences (Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011226095556.01acc550@pop3s.schulte.org> Message-ID: <20011229123213.E32484-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Christopher Schulte wrote: > At 12:46 PM 12/26/2001 +0100, Andreas Klemm wrote: > >I'm sorry, but no way with paypal. Only wanted to write this as > >an experience report... > > Unfortunately, you are in the minority. They claim to have 12 million > members, and a great percentage probably find the service useful and > painless. Take a look at nopaypal.com It seems there are also a number of very dissastified number of people After seen that web site I would give second thoughts about using paypal. > As such, there are some 12 million people You seemed to imply that becuase 12 million people use paypal that it must be good. That is not always the case. Look at AOL, MS operating systems, MSN and the Outlook mail program. They all have "million of users", yet they are some of the worst or have replacements which are better at what they do. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 29 11:27:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poontang.schulte.org (poontang.schulte.org [209.134.156.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0356437B41C for ; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 11:27:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from tarmap.nospam.schulte.org (tarmap.schulte.org [209.134.156.198]) by poontang.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E51D15A2; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:27:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229132125.02339e68@pop3s.schulte.org> X-Sender: X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:27:16 -0600 To: Francisco Reyes From: Christopher Schulte Subject: Re: experiences (Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011229123213.E32484-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011226095556.01acc550@pop3s.schulte.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:35 PM 12/29/2001 -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote: >On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, Christopher Schulte wrote: > > Unfortunately, you are in the minority. They claim to have 12 million > > members, and a great percentage probably find the service useful and > > painless. > >Take a look at nopaypal.com >It seems there are also a number of very dissastified number of people >After seen that web site I would give second thoughts about using paypal. Yes, these sites bring to light valid complaints and concerns. I'm not suggesting that paypal is 100% there for 100% of their customers. Yet I'll maintain that the bulk of their transactions and customer experiences are still handled in a timely and accurate frame. > > As such, there are some 12 million people > >You seemed to imply that becuase 12 million people use paypal that it must >be good. That is not always the case. Look at AOL, MS operating >systems, MSN and the Outlook mail program. They all have "million of >users", yet they are some of the worst or have replacements which are >better at what they do. Your point is valid, however to date I have found nobody who does better than paypal in their market space. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 29 12:23: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (freebsddiary.org.ua [213.186.199.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63ADB37B41A; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from never@localhost) by mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (8.11.6/8.11.4) id fBTKNeo76159; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:23:40 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 22:23:40 +0200 From: Nevermind To: Muhannad Asfour Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo! and FreeBSD Article Message-ID: <20011229222340.B75171@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <20011228230753.435c8050.muhannad07@cogeco.ca> <20011228231413.V34269@klatsch.org> <20011228232138.0e53b6ba.muhannad07@cogeco.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011228232138.0e53b6ba.muhannad07@cogeco.ca>; from muhannad07@cogeco.ca on Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 11:21:38PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Muhannad Asfour! On Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 11:21:38PM -0500, you wrote: > I seem to have found something even better. A PDF version of this article mirrored at sunsite.dk. If anyone else was looking for this article here is the URL: > > http://mirrors.sunsite.dk/freebsd/doc/newsletter/issue1.pdf A friend of mine is working for Yahoo! Inc., I'll ask him if he has an article there. If so, I'll post the link to it here. Yahoo! rocks! P.S. Happy new year to all. P.P.S. Save god all freebsd commiters and developers. P.P.P.S. Kris (Kennaway) I didn't expected that you are skin-head :) Just saw your photos on bbq :) Cc:-ing to -chat -- NEVE-RIPE To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 29 12:24:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD1237B416 for ; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fBTKO9F05776; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:24:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:25:52 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Christopher Schulte Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: experiences (Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229132125.02339e68@pop3s.schulte.org> Message-ID: <20011229151740.K32824-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Christopher Schulte wrote: > Your point is valid, however to date I have found nobody who does better > than paypal in their market space. I think the key phrase is "I have found nobody who does better than paypal". How about ibill.com? surefire.com? I think it is not how much business the company does, but how well it satisfies it's customers. Given the concerns which many people are having with Paypal perhaps the FreeBSD foundation may consider having a second option for online payment. I am just going to send them a check when I am ready to send a donation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 29 12:39:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poontang.schulte.org (poontang.schulte.org [209.134.156.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F9037B431 for ; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from tarmap.nospam.schulte.org (tarmap.schulte.org [209.134.156.198]) by poontang.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A6BD148C; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:39:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229143242.03223ea8@pop3s.schulte.org> X-Sender: X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:39:04 -0600 To: Francisco Reyes From: Christopher Schulte Subject: Re: experiences (Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011229151740.K32824-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229132125.02339e68@pop3s.schulte.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:25 PM 12/29/2001 -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote: >I think the key phrase is "I have found nobody who does better > than paypal". How about ibill.com? surefire.com? Never tried them, may look into it. Thanks. >Given the concerns which many people are having with Paypal perhaps the >FreeBSD foundation may consider having a second option for online payment. Take a look at http://www.amazon.com/honor/ It might be a viable alternative, but the fees are a bit high in my opinion... 15% and 15 cents, plus there is a max 50 dollar donation per. -c To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 29 13:44:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vortex.wa4phy.net (cc449817-a.mrtnz1.ga.home.com [24.12.79.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A18B537B41D for ; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from vortex.wa4phy.net (localhost.wa4phy.net [127.0.0.1]) by vortex.wa4phy.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBTLiJC00643; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:44:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from sam@wa4phy.net) Message-ID: <3C2E3933.6FB33D17@vortex.wa4phy.net> Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:44:19 -0500 From: Sam Drinkard Organization: You Gotta Be Kiddin! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-PRERELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nevermind Cc: Muhannad Asfour , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo! and FreeBSD Article References: <20011228230753.435c8050.muhannad07@cogeco.ca> <20011228231413.V34269@klatsch.org> <20011228232138.0e53b6ba.muhannad07@cogeco.ca> <20011229222340.B75171@nevermind.kiev.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey guys, don't think this thread belongs in -stable... -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 29 13:53:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lycos.co.kr (catv-kwangjoo-210205028145.usr2.hananet.net [210.205.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AE45137B423 for ; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:52:29 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: adfree114@lycos.co.kr From: adfree114 To: Subject: [광고]문구가 들어간 메일을 100% 차단하는법 !! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 06:54:09 +0900 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Mailtouch 1.0 Message-Id: <20011229215229.AE45137B423@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [광고]문구가 들어간 메일을 100% 차단하는 방법 !!

[광고]문구가 들어간 메일을 100% 차단하는법 !!

컴을 알고나면 스팸메일 걱정안하고 얼마든지 메일을 이용할 수가 있지여~

웹메일 메뉴중 환경설정이나옵션선택 - 필터선택후 - [광고]문구를 수신거부에 추가하면 다음부터 제목에 [광고]라는 문구가 들어간 메일과 영원히 이별을 할 수 있답니다..^^    (욕을 하거나 신고만으론 전혀 효과가 없음)

모든 웹메일에는 스팸차단 기능외 싫어하는 메일만 막을 수 있는 기능이 있으며 .. 성인, 쇼핑, CD, 동영상 등... 받기싫은 내용이 들어간 것만 거부할 수도 있는데 조금만 신경쓰면 [광고]메일 걱정 뚝...!! 간단하죠...^ ^

만약 제목에 [광고]라는 문구가 없다면 본문에 "수신거부"란 문구를 필터링으로 해보세요 그럼 광고메일은 못 들어오고 휴지통으로 사라집니다
 (즉 광고메일은 본문에 "수신거부를 해주세요 등... 죄송합니다 등의 문구가 있으니 그 문구를 포함한 것은 모두 막아 줍니다 )

새로운 도메인 등록안내...바이러스 경고안내...새로운 신상품을 싼 가격에 구입할 수 있는 쇼핑몰...관광안내...학원안내...각종정보 소식지...성인...등...그 모두를 [광고]라고 하지요~

그리고 수신자들중 60%가 광고메일에 의해 수많은 정보를 얻는다고 합니다, 수많은 광고들 중 꼭 그 정보를 필요로 하는 분도 계시다는 사실 때문에 광고는 존재하는 것입니다

그리고 이 어려운 시대에 살아남기 위해 몸부림치는 분들을 위해 자기집 문단속을 하는의미에서 [광고] 필터링 선택하심이 어떨런지요~~
광고주들도 더불어 살아가는 사람들이니까요

광고를 필요로 하는 사람만 보기를 바라는 마음에서....

무료성인영화보기

무료성인만화보기

 

  - 최후의 희망은 긍정적인 사고방식 그리고 사랑... -

To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 29 16: 0:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F219437B416 for ; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fBU00SF05134; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:00:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:02:11 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Christopher Schulte Cc: Francisco Reyes , Subject: Re: experiences (Re: FreeBSD Foundation Accepts Donations via PayPal) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229143242.03223ea8@pop3s.schulte.org> Message-ID: <20011229185642.C33145-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Christopher Schulte wrote: > At 03:25 PM 12/29/2001 -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote: > >I think the key phrase is "I have found nobody who does better > > than paypal". How about ibill.com? surefire.com? > > Never tried them, may look into it. Thanks. I have never tried them myself, but ibill looks good "on paper". Their web site is very informative. > >Given the concerns which many people are having with Paypal perhaps the > >FreeBSD foundation may consider having a second option for online payment. > > Take a look at http://www.amazon.com/honor/ > It might be a viable alternative, but the fees are a bit high in my > opinion... 15% and 15 cents, plus there is a max 50 dollar donation per. I think the FreeBSD foundation could give users 2 or 3 options. People choose whichever way they prefer. They SHOULD however mention that they prefer "x type of transaction". For instance just as amazon/honor takes 15% so would ibill (unless the foundation has a merchant account). Based on my little initial research, the more a company does for you the more they take. It seems a 15% is a "full service" type of fee. For instance on ibill I read that if you have a merchant account and only need them to do the "back-end" processing of the transaction then it is as little as $1.00 per transaction. On the oter hand if they manage the entire transactions they charge 15% PLUS it seems they keep a %10 for a certain amount of time (didn't read that part too much though) to cover possible cancelled transactions,etc... In addition to mentioning a preferred method, I think the foundation should mention how much they actually get from donations through each method. This way people may opt to use whichever way gives the most to the foundation. Then again... they may just stay with PayPall and checks since having multiple companies for processing billing may get complex. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 29 16: 3:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lycos.co.kr (catv-kwangjoo-210205028145.usr2.hananet.net [210.205.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A0CFC37B41A for ; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:02:52 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: adfree114@lycos.co.kr From: adfree114 To: Subject: [광고]문구가 들어간 메일을 100% 차단하는법 !! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:04:32 +0900 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Mailtouch 1.0 Message-Id: <20011230000252.A0CFC37B41A@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [광고]문구가 들어간 메일을 100% 차단하는 방법 !!

[광고]문구가 들어간 메일을 100% 차단하는법 !!

컴을 알고나면 스팸메일 걱정안하고 얼마든지 메일을 이용할 수가 있지여~

웹메일 메뉴중 환경설정이나옵션선택 - 필터선택후 - [광고]문구를 수신거부에 추가하면 다음부터 제목에 [광고]라는 문구가 들어간 메일과 영원히 이별을 할 수 있답니다..^^    (욕을 하거나 신고만으론 전혀 효과가 없음)

모든 웹메일에는 스팸차단 기능외 싫어하는 메일만 막을 수 있는 기능이 있으며 .. 성인, 쇼핑, CD, 동영상 등... 받기싫은 내용이 들어간 것만 거부할 수도 있는데 조금만 신경쓰면 [광고]메일 걱정 뚝...!! 간단하죠...^ ^

만약 제목에 [광고]라는 문구가 없다면 본문에 "수신거부"란 문구를 필터링으로 해보세요 그럼 광고메일은 못 들어오고 휴지통으로 사라집니다
 (즉 광고메일은 본문에 "수신거부를 해주세요 등... 죄송합니다 등의 문구가 있으니 그 문구를 포함한 것은 모두 막아 줍니다 )

새로운 도메인 등록안내...바이러스 경고안내...새로운 신상품을 싼 가격에 구입할 수 있는 쇼핑몰...관광안내...학원안내...각종정보 소식지...성인...등...그 모두를 [광고]라고 하지요~

그리고 수신자들중 60%가 광고메일에 의해 수많은 정보를 얻는다고 합니다, 수많은 광고들 중 꼭 그 정보를 필요로 하는 분도 계시다는 사실 때문에 광고는 존재하는 것입니다

그리고 이 어려운 시대에 살아남기 위해 몸부림치는 분들을 위해 자기집 문단속을 하는의미에서 [광고] 필터링 선택하심이 어떨런지요~~
광고주들도 더불어 살아가는 사람들이니까요

광고를 필요로 하는 사람만 보기를 바라는 마음에서....

무료성인영화보기

무료성인만화보기

 

  - 최후의 희망은 긍정적인 사고방식 그리고 사랑... -

To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 29 17:31:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87E137B416 for ; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:31:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02983; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:31:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011229182741.02ff21a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:31:24 -0700 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Lions and tigers and... chickens? In-Reply-To: <20011228202406.D9251@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:24 PM 12/28/2001, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >So, I was sitting at the local deli having dinner this evening. And, >being alone, there was nothing to do but think. > >Suddenly, I was struck by a thought. How _DOES_ a vfork(2) chicken cross >the road? > >Well, the beauty of it is, he doesn't have to; you just pretend he's on >the other side. It's a lot quicker and easier, but if you want him to >flap his wings, you have to build a new chicken from the ground up. Actually, it might be more accurate to say that an egg appears on the other side of the road and you then have to hatch it. --Brett "When you come to the fork in the road, take it." -- Yogi Berra To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 29 21:41:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from catalyst.sasknow.net (catalyst.sasknow.net [207.195.92.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5900537B416 for ; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 21:41:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by catalyst.sasknow.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBU5f3p47742; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:41:03 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) X-Authentication-Warning: catalyst.sasknow.net: ryan owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 23:41:03 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson X-X-Sender: To: Brett Glass Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Subject: Re: Lions and tigers and... chickens? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011229182741.02ff21a0@localhost> Message-ID: <20011229230235.Q46948-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote to Matthew D. Fuller and chat@FreeBSD.ORG: > At 07:24 PM 12/28/2001, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > >Suddenly, I was struck by a thought. How _DOES_ a vfork(2) chicken cross > >the road? > > > >Well, the beauty of it is, he doesn't have to; you just pretend he's on > >the other side. It's a lot quicker and easier, but if you want him to > >flap his wings, you have to build a new chicken from the ground up. > > Actually, it might be more accurate to say that an egg appears on > the other side of the road and you then have to hatch it. It is not necessary to exec() the chicken following a fork(). I think a more detailed outlook is required to get the full picture: Perhaps more correctly, we should say that when the chicken vfork()s, nothing really happens, but some normal chicken code gets executed. Assuming the normal chicken code doesn't change the state of the chicken, you have two chickens for the price of one. If one chicken so much as adjusts his beak, though, you're going to have siamese chickens. (As far as the universe is concerned, chickens are built using fixed-size hunks. The technical term for these is "nuggets"). Now, assuming the location of the chicken was stored by the chicken (and not in some Kentucky State variable outside of the chicken's space... or some pointer from the chicken to it's location, using GPS (global poultry satellite)). Come to think of it, it would be a bad design decision to have the chicken store its own location. For example, when the chicken dies, nobody remembers where the chicken was... Including crows looking for roadkill (garbage collection). Worse, the chicken has control over its own location, so it could instantaneously teleport, say, right before its neck goes to the butcher block. Still worse, another chicken could unknowingly set it's own location overlapping the first chicken, and you'd have yourself Kentucky Fried Chicken(TM)... Maybe even a Colonel panic![1]) Back to vfork()ing chickens. Suppose you've just vfork()ed this chicken... And you want it to cross the road. Well, if your universe is designed properly, you just change the new chicken's location globally (maybe with a Colonel call), and your new chicken (chicken B) appears on the other side of the road almost instantaneously. Both chickens are now doing the same chicken things, but not necessarily at the same time. (Chicken B, knows that it's a child of Chicken A, for instance, and can read it's global location variable, and realize that this ain't Kansas any more, and conclude that it no longer needs to think about crossing the road. Chicken A knows about Chicken B, and can now do other things. Chicken A better wait() for Chicken B, though, or if Chicken B gets run over, there'll be no one around to clean up, and you'll have a zombie chicken. [2] - Ryan [1] For far out of town folks, Kentucky Fried Chicken is a primarily North-American take-out fried chicken franchise. Their mascot is a funny guy called "The Colonel"]. [2] Better highways have volunteers that adopt sections of highway that nobody else wants, and clean up dead things. -- Ryan Thompson Network Administrator, Accounts SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E - Saskatoon, SK - S7H 0W2 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-664-1161 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message