From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 0:15: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254AC37B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 00:14:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4D7Eje69631; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:14:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:14:44 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment>; from n6rej@tcsn.net on Sat, May 12, 2001 at 07:31:55PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 12, 2001 at 07:31:55PM -0700, N6REJ wrote: > Due to the overwhelming lack of assitance I have gotten in the > freebsd-newbies, That's NOT a place to ask for how-to assistance. FreeBSD-newbies can help you find documentation or navigate the social norms and etiquette of the mailing lists. But I don't recall you asking for help there. Perhaps your mail didn't get through or something. > questions, and here, Here you asked about comparison with Red Hat, which is the sort of thread that experienced list users politely ignore. We're sick of OS comparison threads and trolls, but if you want them you can get all of the boring old (to us) repetitive discussions we've had on it by searching the mailing list archives. On FreeBSD-questions your question was difficult to understand, and therefore difficult to respond to. I've just read it three times and still can't work out what you want. It's not your fault, because in the beginning you can't know what we call things and everyone's first questions are always a bit vague. However, I have not the foggiest idea how to give you any of what you want. Nevertheless, someone did give a partial response on freebsd-questions. You could have written to freebsd-questions again saying gently "got no response, what did I do wrong? what else do you need to know?" > I am leaving FBSD. I tried several times to get assitance for my > install and each time was met with non-responses. Well if I missed it I'm not surprised if others did too. Have you got invisible ink in your printer? :-) Nah, we're just very human. > There is one person though that I will give special mention to and that is > susy. If you're referring to me, thanks, but I don't think I helped you much. On the contrary, you helped me with information about my no-name monitor, for which I am still very grateful. > But those two folks out of all of you, were the only 2 who > bothered to take any time to help someone brand new to BSD along. Once I tried another free OS. When I asked a question there, I was deluged with responses from people who spoke with great confidence, insisting they were 100% correct, and all told me different things. So I tried them sequentially, and none of them worked. When I asked again, the same thing happened. No peer review, no quality control. That is much less likely to happen with FreeBSD, because ALL questions are centralised in freebsd-questions. If someone tells you the wrong thing by mistake, someone else will follow up pretty quick with a correction. You get quality, not quantity. If you're used to getting it the other way round, it can look like you're being ignored and it feels like hell. But in the end, it's better. > If you EVER hope to make FBSD the leading Unice, I suggest you learn > how to prevent this in the future. As a person who has spent 25 yrs > in this biz I'm not easily swayed away from my endeavors, but I > refuse to pound my head against a brick wall. > Good luck to you all Some people will take that as a parting insult, but I know that you meant it in the best possible way. It is a pity more people don't stop to give feedback before they go. Thank you for taking the time to do so. > "I do not understand what I do, for what I want to do I do not do but > what I hate I do" Then don't :-) Give it another shot, and next time complain gently in the form of questions _before_ we get the chance to upset you. I believe it's not possible to write a coherent replyable email while feeling upset or annoyed. I'm copying this to freebsd-newbies, because one important role of -newbies is for discussing the community aspects of these kinds of situations and how to get over those humps as a newbie. Any responses should probably go to just one list or the other (and a cc to Troy of course), depending on the nature of its content. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 0:39:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.iinet.net.au (symphony-01.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B1E7937B423 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 00:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from katinka@magestower.com) Received: (qmail 31830 invoked by uid 666); 13 May 2001 07:39:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO WSKATINKA) (203.59.73.35) by mail.iinet.net.au with SMTP; 13 May 2001 07:39:19 -0000 Message-ID: <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> From: "Kathy Quinlan" To: "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , Cc: References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 15:33:24 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Blake To: N6REJ ; Cc: Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 3:14 PM Subject: Re: I'm leaving > On Sat, May 12, 2001 at 07:31:55PM -0700, N6REJ wrote: > > Due to the overwhelming lack of assitance I have gotten in the > > freebsd-newbies, > > That's NOT a place to ask for how-to assistance. FreeBSD-newbies > can help you find documentation or navigate the social norms and > etiquette of the mailing lists. But I don't recall you asking > for help there. Perhaps your mail didn't get through or something. Hi all, I have only received 2 posts from troy, 6 and 8th of may, no others, not even the I am leaving one, and I am on both Questions and newbies, I am just wondering how many others did not receive them, if I don't get them I can not reply Regards, Kat. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 0:45:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from gargoyle.apana.org.au (gargoyle-xl0.apana.org.au [210.215.3.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E266337B424; Sun, 13 May 2001 00:45:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gargoyle.apana.org.au (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4D7oJh57361; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:50:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from bryden.apana.org.au(203.3.126.129), claiming to be "kurley" via SMTP by gargoyle.apana.org.au, id smtpdzGZSn3; Sun May 13 17:50:10 2001 Message-ID: <001101c0db7f$e921a640$8683fea9@kurley> From: "Doug Young" To: "Kathy Quinlan" , "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , Cc: References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:39:53 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have only received 2 posts from troy, 6 and 8th of may, no others, not > even the I am leaving one, and I am on both Questions and newbies, > I'm in the same boat as Kathy ..... I certainly didn't see the postings but like her I would probably would have responded to them if I thought I could provide any assistance > I am just wondering how many others did not receive them, if I don't get > them I can not reply > > Regards, > > Kat. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 3:26:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7A437B43E; Sun, 13 May 2001 03:26:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4DAQ2R09753 ; Sun, 13 May 2001 12:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA98879 ; Sun, 13 May 2001 12:26:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:26:23 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kathy Quinlan Cc: Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan>; from katinka@magestower.com on Sun, May 13, 2001 at 03:33:24PM +0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have only received 2 posts from troy, 6 and 8th of may, no others, not > even the I am leaving one, and I am on both Questions and newbies, > > I am just wondering how many others did not receive them, if I don't get > them I can not reply It seems he sent the original mail only to -advocacy. I don't know what questions he asked, but it seems to me that using FreeBSD requires a certain mindset. It is an extremely organised and methodical system, and if you ask well posed questions, you always get answers. Often you can find the answers in the docs if you know where to look. But I find that most people (even intelligent, computer-literate people) get intimidated by it, even though it works well and the ports system etc are appealing. These people have problems with the chaotic nature of linux distributions: but for some reason they find it too difficult to adjust to the FreeBSD mindset, even when it's demonstrated to them that you can easily do with FreeBSD just about anything you can do with Linux. Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of the install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web browser, and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? Then when the user logs in and wants to learn more about the system, there's no need to poke around in /usr/share/doc (many people don't seem to realise it exists, until it's pointed out to them): they can just click and read. Some sort of tweak could be made to the KDE/GNOME help browsers to include the basic FreeBSD stuff there too. I really don't think it's so difficult to use FreeBSD if you read the docs, but many people don't realise just how good the docs are... Just a thought. -Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 3:34:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA0D37B440; Sun, 13 May 2001 03:34:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 865B366C04; Sun, 13 May 2001 03:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 03:34:36 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sun, May 13, 2001 at 12:26:23PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of the > install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web browser, > and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO THE WORK! :-) Kris P.S. We do have the option to install a variety of Window Managers with support environment from sysinstall thesedays, but AFAIK these are pretty bog-standard with little to no FreeBSD customization. --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6/mM6Wry0BWjoQKURAuyVAKCsEnqjE3uitGuoominBsdi+V2yNQCZAd8l MV4NRpAHQ98Vwvl/5OGyv+U= =puSG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 4:37:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin9.bigpond.com (juicer34.bigpond.com [139.134.6.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC4037B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 04:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.56]) by mailin9.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GD9V7F00.359; Sun, 13 May 2001 21:42:51 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail3.bigpond.com (Claudes-Choosy-MailRouter V2.9c 5/2106769); 13 May 2001 21:37:12 Message-ID: <003101c0dba1$181a7aa0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Kris Kennaway" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Kathy Quinlan" , "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , , References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:37:29 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been thinking of doing something akin to the Pedantic FreeBSD style HOWTO on X ... some sort of really explict documentation with ALL the information needed to get a functional GUI, however I'd need to start from scratch as every FreeBSD system I've had anything to do with has been straight command line. From questions I've been seeing in the questions list, it appears that hardware support is the main issue that creates the bulk of the problems. Who would be the best to advise on some readily available & reasonably priced videocards / chipsets that ALWAYS work without problems ?? eg I've generally stuck with AGP versions of those 8Mb ATI Rage Pro things for both W2K & Solaris systems because I've never had a hint of trouble getting things to work / they give 16 bit 1024x768 easily they are affordable in OZ .... maybe they aren't the best for XFree but surely someone must know a couple of videocards that suit. (and please everyone don't say Matrox because the price in OZ is extortionate !!) > Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of the > install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web browser, > and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO THE WORK! :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 5: 4:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from tiku.hut.fi (tiku.hut.fi [130.233.228.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB8237B43E; Sun, 13 May 2001 05:04:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sparvu@alpha.hut.fi) Received: from alpha.hut.fi (sparvu@alpha.hut.fi [130.233.224.50]) by tiku.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06542; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:02:58 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 15:02:58 +0300 (EET DST) From: Stefan Parvu To: Doug Young Cc: Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving In-Reply-To: <003101c0dba1$181a7aa0$0300a8c0@oracle> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "default GUI install" is a subject to discuss. In my oppinion is not a good idea because: 1. The core OS should be simple and simple to install. No GUI for that. Make a comparations between Solaris, OpenBSD, Microsoft, Linux RedHat, Suse. Time it and think again. As well look to the complexity of GUI Install stuff. 2. The text mode is really cool. Is fast and it's simple. No extra effort. 3. No problems with video cards or VESA generic mode. Keep it simple. For what do you need install GUI ??? Comfort ? Help for new users ??? At least these 3 points makes a good point to keep the sysinstall stuff. If new users come and want to learn the stuff is simple: Grab a doc and read it. Why we should have a "right click" formula as Microsoft or other commercial UNIXes does ??? Sysinstall anyway is simple to use more than any GUI ... Take a look and analyze the SUSE installer, RedHAT, Solaris. Is far more complex than sysinstall. Just some ideas, stefan On Sun, 13 May 2001, Doug Young wrote: > Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:37:29 +1000 > From: Doug Young > To: Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan > Cc: Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: I'm leaving > > I've been thinking of doing something akin to the Pedantic FreeBSD > style HOWTO > on X ... some sort of really explict documentation with ALL the > information needed to get a functional GUI, however I'd need to start > from scratch as every FreeBSD system I've had anything to do with has > been straight command line. From questions I've been seeing in the > questions list, it appears that hardware support is the main issue > that creates the bulk of the problems. Who would be the best to advise > on some readily available & reasonably priced videocards / chipsets > that ALWAYS work without problems ?? eg I've generally stuck with AGP > versions of those 8Mb ATI Rage Pro things for both W2K & Solaris > systems because I've never had a hint of trouble getting things to > work / they give 16 bit 1024x768 easily they are affordable in OZ .... > maybe they aren't the best for XFree but surely someone must know a > couple of videocards that suit. (and please everyone don't say Matrox > because the price in OZ is extortionate !!) > > > > Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of > the > > install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web > browser, > > and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? > > Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, > newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero > community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO > THE WORK! :-) > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 5:11: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from h24-69-46-74.gv.shawcable.net (h24-69-46-74.gv.shawcable.net [24.69.46.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F8037B446; Sun, 13 May 2001 05:10:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michael@tenzo.com) Received: from h24-69-46-74.gv.shawcable.net (localhost.gv.shawcable.net [127.0.0.1]) by h24-69-46-74.gv.shawcable.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f4DCCIL01371; Sun, 13 May 2001 05:12:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michael@tenzo.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Michael O'Henly" Reply-To: michael@tenzo.com To: "Doug Young" , "Kris Kennaway" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 05:12:18 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: "Kathy Quinlan" , "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , , References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <003101c0dba1$181a7aa0$0300a8c0@oracle> In-Reply-To: <003101c0dba1$181a7aa0$0300a8c0@oracle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01051305121800.01335@h24-69-46-74.gv.shawcable.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm new to FreeBSD myself. I have some experience with Linux but I'm not very expert technically so I can understand N6REJ's frustration. However... I can't think of any question I've posted on freebsd.questions that hasn't been answered once it was clear that I've made some initial efforts to figure it out myself. A lot of problems that confront newbies seem enormous and unmanageable because they haven't yet started the process of chunking them down into solveable bits. Making that effort strikes me as being "the price of admission". Rather than putting valuable effort into a "default GUI install", I think Doug's suggestion of extending the documentation in this area makes a lot of sense. For instance, a gentle overview of cvsup would be really useful. I was able to figure it out from the Handbook but only because I'd read an article describing the wonder of FreeBSD makefiles. A simple conceptual overview of how packages are installed would have helped me a lot. M. On Sunday 13 May 2001 04:37, Doug Young wrote: > I've been thinking of doing something akin to the Pedantic FreeBSD > style HOWTO > on X ... some sort of really explict documentation with ALL the > information needed to get a functional GUI, however I'd need to start > from scratch as every FreeBSD system I've had anything to do with has > been straight command line. From questions I've been seeing in the > questions list, it appears that hardware support is the main issue > that creates the bulk of the problems. Who would be the best to advise > on some readily available & reasonably priced videocards / chipsets > that ALWAYS work without problems ?? eg I've generally stuck with AGP > versions of those 8Mb ATI Rage Pro things for both W2K & Solaris > systems because I've never had a hint of trouble getting things to > work / they give 16 bit 1024x768 easily they are affordable in OZ .... > maybe they aren't the best for XFree but surely someone must know a > couple of videocards that suit. (and please everyone don't say Matrox > because the price in OZ is extortionate !!) > > > Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of > > the > > > install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web > > browser, > > > and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? > > Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, > newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero > community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO > THE WORK! :-) > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message -- Michael O'Henly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 5:37: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin1.bigpond.com (juicer13.bigpond.com [139.134.6.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356A537B446; Sun, 13 May 2001 05:36:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.51]) by mailin1.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GD9XYD00.DU3; Sun, 13 May 2001 22:42:13 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail7.bigpond.com (Claudes-Steep-n-Deep-MailRouter V2.9c 15/10842070); 13 May 2001 22:36:33 Message-ID: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Stefan Parvu" Cc: "Kris Kennaway" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Kathy Quinlan" , "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , , References: Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:36:50 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "default GUI install" is a subject to discuss. In my oppinion is not a > good idea because: > I don't have any experience with XFree because personally I've never found a need for it, however I believe there is a demand (well considered or otherwise) for an explicit HOWTO that assists those who do wish to configure GUI . I have no doubt I could produce documentation infinitely more suited to the non-experts attempting to do this than the "official" documentation folk, however I don't know if its worth the time and trouble. ..... which is what I'll decide over the next day or two based on feedback to this thread > 1. The core OS should be simple and simple to install. No GUI for that. > Make a comparations between Solaris, OpenBSD, Microsoft, Linux RedHat, > Suse. Time it and think again. As well look to the complexity of GUI > Install stuff. > I wish everything in life was as easy as a Solaris / SCO CDE install !! Its obviously "possible" to build a unix GUI installer that works properly so whats wrong with the XFree one anyway that it causes so much trouble for so many people ?? Even if its too much to expect from open source developers its gotta be possible to document the process properly (meaning explicitly) so that non-expert users with the "correct" hardware can get some sort of X running without tearing hair out & with reasonable resolution etc > 2. The text mode is really cool. Is fast and it's simple. No extra effort. > No argument about that .... the command line setup certainly does the job extremely well for those using the operating system purely as a server, but there is a whole bunch of people out there who believe the main purpose of computers is to run stuff like Doom / Quake / whatever or to play MP3s. I wish you the best of British luck in convincing these people to do whatever they want using purely command line. If this was taken to its logical extreme one could ask whats the point of cluttering up the FreeBSD CDs with all the XFree 3.x / XFree 4.x / KDE / Gnome / etc stuff if its not expected that anyone will actually want to use the stuff ?? Maybe someone should suggest that FreeBSD drop all pretensions about having GUI support ?? > 3. No problems with video cards or VESA generic mode. Keep it simple. For > what do you need install GUI ??? Comfort ? Help for new users ??? > Me ?? ..... possibly / probably none, although I have stumbled across the odd application that claimed to have some form of config GUI. I've never been able to investigate those things so it might be worth the effort sometime. One never knows though, I might even use a GUI FreeBSD / Netscape system instead of a Solaris one for browsing if it was possible to configure the thing without having to engage in battle for weeks :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 6: 6:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin1.bigpond.com (juicer13.bigpond.com [139.134.6.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD7C37B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 06:06:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.54]) by mailin1.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GD9ZB600.6X9; Sun, 13 May 2001 23:11:30 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail6.bigpond.com (Claudes-Famous-MailRouter V2.9c 11/10307518); 13 May 2001 23:05:50 Message-ID: <017301c0dbad$7a80f230$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: , "Kris Kennaway" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Kathy Quinlan" , "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , , References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <003101c0dba1$181a7aa0$0300a8c0@oracle> <01051305121800.01335@h24-69-46-74.gv.shawcable.net> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 23:06:08 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Rather than putting valuable effort into a "default GUI install", I think > Doug's suggestion of extending the documentation in this area makes a lot of > sense. For instance, a gentle overview of cvsup would be really useful. I was > able to figure it out from the Handbook but only because I'd read an article > describing the wonder of FreeBSD makefiles. A simple conceptual overview of > how packages are installed would have helped me a lot. > As I've said countless times, "simple conceptual overviews" that include ALL the necessary information in one place help heaps of users. However I'm certain that the quickest & probably most efficient way to achieve this is for some non-expert to produce the stuff.. It seems many experts are too busy to produce explicit docs / don't perceive a need to be explicit / fail to comprehend the utter confusion caused to newbies by most man pages. OK so the non-expert can't possibly know enough to explain EVERYTHING, but thats not the issue here. Newbies rarely have the need / desire / ability to do anything real tricky ... in the vast majority of cases, all thats needed is a mere fraction of the info available from Greg Lehey's book, the Handbook, mailing list archives, etc, but with relevant background / assumed prior knowledge / etc, all readily available in a step_by_step format .... lots of visuals don't go astray either. I believe I've done a reasonable job of this stuff as far as I've gone with the Pedantic FreeBSD ... at least the hundreds of complimentary emails I've received over the past year would suggest that it fills a need that other stuff doesn't. Trouble is it needs a heap more work done to include info on ADSL PPPoE / broadband cable / X / CVSUP / etc etc & time is, as always, at a premium. Such is life I guess ...... like I've always said "whats the use complaining .... nobody takes any notice :)" > M. > > On Sunday 13 May 2001 04:37, Doug Young wrote: > > I've been thinking of doing something akin to the Pedantic FreeBSD > > style HOWTO > > on X ... some sort of really explict documentation with ALL the > > information needed to get a functional GUI, however I'd need to start > > from scratch as every FreeBSD system I've had anything to do with has > > been straight command line. From questions I've been seeing in the > > questions list, it appears that hardware support is the main issue > > that creates the bulk of the problems. Who would be the best to advise > > on some readily available & reasonably priced videocards / chipsets > > that ALWAYS work without problems ?? eg I've generally stuck with AGP > > versions of those 8Mb ATI Rage Pro things for both W2K & Solaris > > systems because I've never had a hint of trouble getting things to > > work / they give 16 bit 1024x768 easily they are affordable in OZ .... > > maybe they aren't the best for XFree but surely someone must know a > > couple of videocards that suit. (and please everyone don't say Matrox > > because the price in OZ is extortionate !!) > > > > > Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of > > > > the > > > > > install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web > > > > browser, > > > > > and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? > > > > Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, > > newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero > > community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO > > THE WORK! :-) > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > > -- > Michael O'Henly > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 6:12:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1068F37B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 06:12:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f4DDB0x19122; Sun, 13 May 2001 07:11:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3AFE87BF.E2A53BC0@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 07:10:23 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Young Cc: Stefan Parvu , Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think the default install works very well, and there is a 'desktop config' option in sysinstall. I don't think it should include either KDE or gnome, though. My personal preferences are fvwm (1.24, NOT 2.0; the config file is easier to alter) and windowmaker. Both KDE and gnome are complex, moving targets that don't always install. Each has dozens of dependencies. One thing I would do is to add lynx to the base install so that the HTML docs option in sysinstall no longer requires a package add. At the very least, we need to ensure that lynx is always on the first CD, so it can be found without errors. GUI would be a lot easier if we had better video card probes, but that's always going to be another very fast-moving target. I think the present system of /stand/sysinstall works well except for a very few problems: * Newbie users need a clue as to WHICH CD each package is on. I think adding one screen that shows the locations of the entire package collection in a given release would be very appropriate. * Add lynx, as I said above. * remove gnome and KDE from the desktop config or separate them into a distinct category with clear warnings. On a different note, one more: Add 4.x-STABLE tags to the CVSup repositories so we don't have to back out to OPTIONS to install packages after we've started tracking STABLE. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 6:49:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin8.bigpond.com (juicer39.bigpond.com [139.134.6.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D33E37B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 06:49:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.53]) by mailin8.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDA1BM00.5JC; Sun, 13 May 2001 23:54:58 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail0.bigpond.com (Claudes-Revolutionary-MailRouter V2.9c 13/2026000); 13 May 2001 23:49:20 Message-ID: <019101c0dbb3$8d169430$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Don Wilde" Cc: "Stefan Parvu" , "Kris Kennaway" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Kathy Quinlan" , "Sue Blake" , "N6REJ" , , References: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> <3AFE87BF.E2A53BC0@Silver-Lynx.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 23:49:36 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I think the default install works very well, and there is a 'desktop > config' option in sysinstall. I don't think it should include either KDE > or gnome, though. My personal preferences are fvwm (1.24, NOT 2.0; the > config file is easier to alter) and windowmaker. Both KDE and gnome are > complex, moving targets that don't always install. Each has dozens of > dependencies. One thing I would do is to add lynx to the base install so > that the HTML docs option in sysinstall no longer requires a package > add. At the very least, we need to ensure that lynx is always on the > first CD, so it can be found without errors. > I don't have any argument whatever with the actual sysinstall which is one of the best thought out setups I've seen, however I do have constant problems with the packages themselves (ports too for that matter) due to various incompatibilities / missing libraries / etc. Its got to the stage lately where I'm tending to download stuff from the developers homepage / FTP site & compile from source rather than mess with either sysinstall or ports. > GUI would be a lot easier if we had better video card probes, but that's > always going to be another very fast-moving target. I think the present > system of /stand/sysinstall works well except for a very few problems: > The issue of videocard compatibility is what first got me interested in this thread earlier tonight .... seems the subject matter has gone all over the place since then however. Given the rate of change in videocard technology I don't know if its possible to keep pace with the latest & greatest. What I believe should be practical though is to specify a number of readily available videocards that are known to work properly all the time, then base a HOWTO on those. eg there are things like the Tseng ET4000 (ISA), ET6000/6100 (PCI), S3 Virge (PCI), ATI Rage Pro (AGP) that have been around almost since the dawn of time and that from my experience work well in any operating system. Given the millions of each of those sold, it seems reasonable to me to expect a ton of experience out there that knows exactly what configurations work. > * Newbie users need a clue as to WHICH CD each package is on. I think > adding one screen that shows the locations of the entire package > collection in a given release would be very appropriate. > Dunno about that .... I've never purchased the multi-CD set anyway ... my mo is to grap the source directly from the developer and compile the thing. I think one or two of the linux distributions did that (RedHat / Mandrake ??) but from memory the 50 page list of stuff with inadequate explanations only added to my confusion. Mind you that was only one of countless items that convinced me that linux wasn't something for me. > * Add lynx, as I said above. > > * remove gnome and KDE from the desktop config or separate them into a > distinct category with clear warnings. Hmmmm .... take the things right out & replace with CDE perhaps :) > > On a different note, one more: Add 4.x-STABLE tags to the CVSup > repositories so we don't have to back out to OPTIONS to install packages > after we've started tracking STABLE. > -- or give the whole CVS thing a miss & leave well enough alone til the next RELEASE ?? I'm on an "anti-CVS" trip at present after experiencing nothing but problems with it. Seems a surprising number of experienced operators I've spoken to share that view as well. Does anyone have good experiences with it, or is it simply something that a few people use because its available ?? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 7: 7: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1974437B422; Sun, 13 May 2001 07:06:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f4DE6jx27295; Sun, 13 May 2001 08:06:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3AFE94CF.2CD5AB51@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 08:06:07 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Young Cc: Stefan Parvu , Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> <3AFE87BF.E2A53BC0@Silver-Lynx.com> <019101c0dbb3$8d169430$0300a8c0@oracle> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm on an "anti-CVS" trip at present after experiencing nothing but > problems with it. > Seems a surprising number of experienced operators I've spoken to > share that view as well. > Does anyone have good experiences with it, or is it simply something > that a few people use because its available ?? > I think CVSup is _essential_ and is an excellent tool. The only thing I _don't_ ever do is try to bump it a branch, i.e. 3.x to 4.x. I'm sure it would work and the files that need to be hand-updated are well documented, but I don't have the patience to do that. I'd rather just install a raw -RELEASE from CDs and update from there. [Of course, I have a T1 and a dozen machines to park my userland files on...] I've rarely had problems with CVSup itself except that some servers are slower than others. A web page that showed loading on the mirrors would be really nice. If a 'make buildworld' does happen to crash, just go back and CVSup again a few hours later. Even if your sources are out of whack for that time, remember that all of your binaries are still good until you 'make installworld' over them. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 9: 7:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7AC737B424; Sun, 13 May 2001 09:07:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4DG7VR26383 ; Sun, 13 May 2001 18:07:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA09360 ; Sun, 13 May 2001 18:07:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:07:53 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Doug Young Cc: Stefan Parvu , Kris Kennaway , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010513180753.A9193@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Doug Young , Stefan Parvu , Kris Kennaway , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle>; from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au on Sun, May 13, 2001 at 10:36:50PM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Young said on May 13, 2001 at 22:36:50: > > "default GUI install" is a subject to discuss. In my oppinion is not > a > > good idea because: Clarification: I didn't mean the installer should be GUI. I meant that in addition to the "beginner/expert/custom" type options that exist already, there should be one which installs KDE/GNOME/both, with the additional feature that the setup includes a desktop link to FreeBSD docs. In fact, what I really meant was changing the existing packages/ports for KDE/GNOME to include such an icon as part of the default, I suppose... and when you launch the help system for these applications, it should point you to the FreeBSD docs as well as their own docs. I'll look at this and see whether I can do it myself. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 13:41:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E83137B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 13:41:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 72CD566C04; Sun, 13 May 2001 13:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:41:45 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Stefan Parvu Cc: Doug Young , Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010513134145.C62345@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <003101c0dba1$181a7aa0$0300a8c0@oracle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xesSdrSSBC0PokLI" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from sparvu@cc.hut.fi on Sun, May 13, 2001 at 03:02:58PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --xesSdrSSBC0PokLI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 03:02:58PM +0300, Stefan Parvu wrote: >=20 > "default GUI install" is a subject to discuss. In my oppinion is not a > good idea because: >=20 > 1. The core OS should be simple and simple to install. No GUI for that. > Make a comparations between Solaris, OpenBSD, Microsoft, Linux RedHat, > Suse. Time it and think again. As well look to the complexity of GUI > Install stuff.=20 >=20 > 2. The text mode is really cool. Is fast and it's simple. No extra effort. >=20 > 3. No problems with video cards or VESA generic mode. Keep it simple. For > what do you need install GUI ??? Comfort ? Help for new users ??? =20 >=20 > At least these 3 points makes a good point to keep the sysinstall stuff. > If new users come and want to learn the stuff is simple: Grab a doc and > read it. Why we should have a "right click" formula as Microsoft or other > commercial UNIXes does ??? Sysinstall anyway is simple to use more than > any GUI ...=20 You've misunderstood. We're not talking about a replacement for sysinstall (though that is -- slowly -- being developed with the full understanding of what you said above in mind); we're talking about the capability for sysinstall to install a Window Manager + desktop environment for the user to provide a more friendly face than a csh prompt. Actually, we're not even talking about that; it's already existed for some time -- we were talking about someone actually making a nice, FreeBSD-customized desktop environment for one of the popular WMs (I don't personally care which). Kris --xesSdrSSBC0PokLI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6/vGIWry0BWjoQKURApGbAJ0XzvXTQskXAC44UOia3VVumZ1+WwCgpG5f DV31L5S7DpdOZmq+Cxu3JcI= =IE6O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xesSdrSSBC0PokLI-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 13:44:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4938E37B42C; Sun, 13 May 2001 13:44:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BA51366C04; Sun, 13 May 2001 13:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:44:09 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Don Wilde Cc: Doug Young , Stefan Parvu , Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010513134409.D62345@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> <3AFE87BF.E2A53BC0@Silver-Lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RhUH2Ysw6aD5utA4" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3AFE87BF.E2A53BC0@Silver-Lynx.com>; from Don@Silver-Lynx.com on Sun, May 13, 2001 at 07:10:23AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --RhUH2Ysw6aD5utA4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 07:10:23AM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > I think the default install works very well, and there is a 'desktop > config' option in sysinstall. I don't think it should include either KDE > or gnome, though. My personal preferences are fvwm (1.24, NOT 2.0; the > config file is easier to alter) and windowmaker. [...] Could you please go and use sysinstall so we're at least on the same page as to what it already does? > On a different note, one more: Add 4.x-STABLE tags to the CVSup > repositories so we don't have to back out to OPTIONS to install packages > after we've started tracking STABLE. I'm confused by this statement. What's a cvsup repository (CVS repository?), and what's wrong with the CVS branch tags (RELENG_4, ...)? Kris --RhUH2Ysw6aD5utA4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6/vIZWry0BWjoQKURAphRAJ9FzGNizBlT/Cm5AAA7YrLKOuSDoACfYFOV 7XdlhW9L9AQq0ZQ1q1GU+cY= =iIil -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RhUH2Ysw6aD5utA4-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 15:14: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from shell18.ba.best.com (shell18.ba.best.com [206.184.139.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F166D37B422 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:14:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phinger@shell18.ba.best.com) Received: from localhost (phinger@localhost) by shell18.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) with ESMTP id PAA02066 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 15:14:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam LaBarge To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: web pages cashing programs for a router Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I am wandering what some of you think are good web page cashing apps. I am running a P133 ( 96MB RAM FreeBSD4.2 ) gateway/router/NAT for a cable modem. I am interested in throwing on some web page cashing apps. Are there any goods one for my set up? Nothing to intensive on the machine. Also, would it really make that big a differance? I have 13 machines on the network, and i would say that the most commen pages would be something like hotmail.com / slashdot.com / and maybe 4 otthers. would a cashe program help much in this case? Maybe if only for slashdot cause from some reason it always takes so long to load. any help is fine/ comments. thanks -adam Time is a great teacher, unfortunately it kills all it's students - Berlioz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 15:48:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA89A37B422; Sun, 13 May 2001 15:48:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4DMlA272694; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:47:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:47:10 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Kathy Quinlan , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010514084709.A68348@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sun, May 13, 2001 at 12:26:23PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Often you can find the answers in the docs if you know where to look. And that is exactly the problem faced by many newbies: not knowing where to look, nor realising they're there when they've found it. They can't tell because there are concepts that they don't have, and when they look at the documentation they might find vaguely familiar words which are not used in every day speech and which have a particular meaning to people with a formal computer education. The man pages do this a lot. For example, in ls(1) we have a few words that probably won't be understood without unix knowledge, and I have no problem with that. Words like "FIFO", "symbolic link", etc need to be looked up in a unix text somewhere and learned. Until then, you are not so likely to need the relatively more advanced stuff that they are found in. Part of the deal is learning about these things. What really stumps people is when, reading in that partially familiar environment, they must stop and try to figure out more common sounding words like: lexicographical order reursively whiteouts deprecated colon-delimited With these, once you've seen them in a unix context they're obvious, but they don't have instant meaning that leaps out for a beginner. Some man pages restate these in more common words or show very easy examples where their meanings are apparent. Our man pages for the common user and setup commands could be improved by a going-over with this perspective in mind, perhaps referring to others such as the Tru64 man pages for ideas. In other documents, such as the Handbook, we could use something like a newbie review team to make sure that unnecessary difficulties don't creep in or they are linked to explanations or a glossary. That'd be lot of work. Meanwhile we have to be more aware of the nature of their difficulties. > But I find that most people (even intelligent, computer-literate > people) get intimidated by it, even though it works well and the ports > system etc are appealing. These people have problems with the chaotic > nature of linux distributions: but for some reason they find it too > difficult to adjust to the FreeBSD mindset, even when it's > demonstrated to them that you can easily do with FreeBSD just about > anything you can do with Linux. Yep. There might only be one or two things that are hard to understand, but they are presented in such a foreign and frighteneing environment that suddenly nothing makes sense and it's not clear exactly where the problem is. Then asking questions about it is real tricky. > Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of the > install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web browser, > and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? > Then when the user logs in and wants to learn more about the system, > there's no need to poke around in /usr/share/doc (many people don't > seem to realise it exists, until it's pointed out to them): they can > just click and read. Some sort of tweak could be made to the > KDE/GNOME help browsers to include the basic FreeBSD stuff there too. While that would be great, the person in this case was having trouble getting his head around what was required to install, a problem that exceeded what he had managed to extract from the docs. Not even a GUI install would help with the conceptual problems. I include part of his -questions post below as an example. I can't figure out what he wants, but I can tell that he's really thinking and applying himself to solving the problem. His previously good conceptual tools have let him down and diligent reading of the docs has't saved him. On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 11:36:23PM -0700, N6REJ wrote: > the major thing I'm not too sure about is whether I should tell it I want it > to put things in the boot partition or not, and then wether I need to make > drive c "bootable" or not. I mean I know it needs to be for dos, and it is > currently of course, but FBSD does'nt seem to recognize that fact. I > thought I had it done right this morning but after I powered down it said > bad partition. > I want c: drive to be accesible as /c and d: as /d: ( ESPECIALLY D: ) which > are both FAT32 so that I can easily retrieve files I have stored there and > put somethere 2 if I choose too. What you see above is a person coming to FreeBSD with some decent working knowledge of his old environment, applying those concepts that he has already to try to understand what's required for installing FreeBSD. It's useless to tell him to forget his old OS, because at his point there is no way to tell which concepts are microsoftisms and which are not. No way. We who know more than he have to meet him in the middle until we have a common language. Because we can. > I really don't think it's so difficult to use FreeBSD if you read the > docs, but many people don't realise just how good the docs are... Heartily agreed. But it depends so much on where you're coming from. I raise again the old example doc http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/slow/ready.html People say this summary is very harsh, and I agree, but nobody can point to parts of it and agree that that knowledge is _not_ a preprequisite. There is no path to success without a clear starting point. We need to rethink: Exactly what are we expecting newcomers to know, and why can't we state those expectations clearly? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 16:37:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin2.email.bigpond.com (juicer14.bigpond.com [139.134.6.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2705137B422; Sun, 13 May 2001 16:37:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.53]) by mailin2.email.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDASJM00.2DX; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:42:58 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail0.bigpond.com (Claudes-Emergent-MailRouter V2.9c 13/2112272); 14 May 2001 09:37:33 Message-ID: <024b01c0dc05$b1314fc0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Sue Blake" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Kathy Quinlan" , "N6REJ" , , References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010514084709.A68348@welearn.com.au> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:37:35 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > And that is exactly the problem faced by many newbies: not knowing > where to look, nor realising they're there when they've found it. They > can't tell because there are concepts that they don't have, and when > they look at the documentation they might find vaguely familiar words > which are not used in every day speech and which have a particular > meaning to people with a formal computer education. > :) ..... its called "martian" .... or maybe I'm confused & its really "venusian" !!! As I said in another posting, when I need to do something I generally wish to do it in the immediate future, not after I've had time to go spend a small fortune on O'Reilly books (for the benefit of the yankees they cost a days wage for many people in OZ with the current exchang rate of the pacific peso), then learn to comprehend martian / venusian at an academic level, and finally read half a library so one understands the historical background / philosophy / etc ........ when all that was needed in the first place was "run blah -x | grep foo" Its stuff like this that could readily be explained to the level needed for said newbie to achieve whatever they wish to achieve without all the drama. OK so the developers are busy people (& thats not in dispute), so how do we go about getting "official" sanction of the "user friendly" sites that do attempt to fill a need that the official docs can't / won't ?? > The man pages do this a lot. For example, in ls(1) we have a few words > that probably won't be understood without unix knowledge, and I have > no problem with that. Words like "FIFO", "symbolic link", etc > need to be looked up in a unix text somewhere and learned. Until > then, you are not so likely to need the relatively more advanced stuff > that they are found in. Part of the deal is learning about these things. > There is a limit to how much martian / venusian most of us can absorb in a hurry. For many people its very limited, so since the official folk didn't learn to speak the same language the majority of regular folk do it appears that meaningful docs can only be written by a team comprising someone with a reasonable grasp of english (or whatever language), an expert or two in a consultancy role, plus an interpreter who may not be an expert developer but speaks both the developer language & english (or whatever) > > With these, once you've seen them in a unix context they're obvious, > but they don't have instant meaning that leaps out for a beginner. > So why the commandment "Thou shalt never use visual representations" (aka screenshots) ?? Hey maybe the docs folk are all visually impaired & use one of those screenreader apps like "Jaws". Might explain why all "official" docs muddle through with largely unintelligible text rather than the 'picture tells a thousand words" approach > Some man pages restate these in more common words or show very > easy examples where their meanings are apparent. Our man pages > for the common user and setup commands could be improved by a > going-over with this perspective in mind, perhaps referring to > others such as the Tru64 man pages for ideas. In other documents, > such as the Handbook, we could use something like a newbie review > team to make sure that unnecessary difficulties don't creep > in or they are linked to explanations or a glossary. > Exactly .... maybe then we'd have official docs with words on the pages rather than simply chapter headings & virtually blank pages !!! > > even when it's > > demonstrated to them that you can easily do with FreeBSD just about > > anything you can do with Linux. > I couldn't imagine in my worst nightmare using linux for anything .... FreeBSD does most of what I want quite efficiently. The problem is simply how to figure new stuff out without making it into a command performance. Where I started with this thread was trying to discover if its reasonably feasable to write a step_by_step HOWTO about X-windows. After about a thousand postings I'm still none the wiser .... the only halfway relevant feedback advised that all open source GUIs are broken abortions / a waste of time / against the religion. (all of which I'd decided years ago). So what about all those people posting questions like "how do I configure my you beaut 256Mb , watercooled, turbocharged blah videocard for X-windows" ...... seems even many of us who have been using FreeBSD for years still haven't much idea how to configure an S3 Virge to work properly. > > Exactly what are we expecting newcomers to know, and > why can't we state those expectations clearly? > Thats a very good question & I'll be very interested to see the responses :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 17:37:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDA637B423; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4E0aN573048; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:36:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:36:23 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Doug Young Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , N6REJ , freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010514103623.B68348@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Doug Young , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , N6REJ , freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010514084709.A68348@welearn.com.au> <024b01c0dc05$b1314fc0$0300a8c0@oracle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <024b01c0dc05$b1314fc0$0300a8c0@oracle>; from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 09:37:35AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moved, it's a -doc issue now (was advocacy and newbies)] On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 09:37:35AM +1000, Doug Young wrote: > > And that is exactly the problem faced by many newbies: not knowing > > where to look, nor realising they're there when they've found it. > They > > can't tell because there are concepts that they don't have, and when > > they look at the documentation they might find vaguely familiar > words > > which are not used in every day speech and which have a particular > > meaning to people with a formal computer education. > > > :) ..... its called "martian" .... or maybe I'm confused & its really > "venusian" !!! I thought it was Klingon :-) Whatever it is, your MUA's line-wrapper seems to have come from the same place :-) I'll rewrap for you. > There is a limit to how much martian / venusian most of us can absorb > in a hurry. For many people its very limited, so since the official > folk didn't learn to speak the same language the majority of regular > folk do it appears that meaningful docs can only be written by a team > comprising someone with a reasonable grasp of english (or whatever > language), an expert or two in a consultancy role, plus an > interpreter who may not be an expert developer but speaks both the > developer language & english (or whatever) The problem we have is that the people with the skills to execute these good ideas, either don't contribute them to our docs (and we're left with a volunteer staff of hard working Klingons trying their very best), OR, they go off and do their own thing somewhere else, which is great to have but fails to enrich the FreeBSD docs in any way. Like so many things round here, we have lots of people ready to jump up with good ideas, even more people weeing themselves with excitement at the chance to code the infrastructure, but hardly a soul to do the actual work. This applies to FreeBSD doc ideas as much as it does to support ideas. "If you build it they will come" is a naive view does not work for support/docs, but it has been a popular pipe dream for the several years that I've been watching. Better docs/support requires supply of prose, not code. The first thing we need is people, working within the community, to do the stuff. You can sketch out a few docs and send them to freebsd-doc. I find SGML intimidating, but plain text is fine. If it's valid and useful, after feedback and editing and completion someone will step forward and mark it up and commit it for you. Anyone who doesn't want a precious word of their prose altered will have to do it some other way, of course. And there are other reasons why some people keep their docs sepaparte from the FreeBSD docs. But in general, we need people contributing to docs if there is going to ever be any improvement. And we need bums on seats and text on file, way way way before we need more should-be and should-be-nots and code. > > With these, once you've seen them in a unix context they're > > obvious, but they don't have instant meaning that leaps out for a > > beginner. > > > So why the commandment "Thou shalt never use visual representations" > (aka screenshots) ?? Hey maybe the docs folk are all visually > impaired & use one of those screenreader apps like "Jaws". Might > explain why all "official" docs muddle through with largely > unintelligible text rather than the 'picture tells a thousand words" > approach No, it's because nobody has submitted them for inclusion. That's how everything that's in the docs already has got there. If you have something worth adding, check on -doc that nobody's already working on the same thing, sound out your ideas, and send them to -doc for review. You could be surprised what makes it through that process simply due to the absence of any alternative. > Exactly .... maybe then we'd have official docs with words on the > pages rather than simply chapter headings & virtually blank pages !!! Exactly. > Where I started with this thread was trying to discover if its > reasonably feasable to write a step_by_step HOWTO about X-windows. Please, please do! And please do it as part of the FreeBSD Doc Project if you can. Then after it's done, you will become a role model who has found an omission and gone on to correct it, and others might follow. > > > > Exactly what are we expecting newcomers to know, and > > why can't we state those expectations clearly? > > > Thats a very good question & I'll be very interested to see the > responses :) Maybe some of the -doc people have thought about this. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun May 13 17:40:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (smtp-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB1A37B422 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:40:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrs@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ACB35F7B; Sun, 13 May 2001 19:40:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 19:40:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "jrs@enteract.com" To: Adam LaBarge Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: web pages cashing programs for a router In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org squid...... > Hi, I am wandering what some of you think are good web page cashing > apps. I am running a P133 ( 96MB RAM FreeBSD4.2 ) gateway/router/NAT for > a cable modem. I am interested in throwing on some web page cashing apps. > Are there any goods one for my set up? Nothing to intensive on the > machine. Also, would it really make that big a differance? I have 13 > machines on the network, and i would say that the most commen pages would > be something like hotmail.com / slashdot.com / and maybe 4 otthers. would > a cashe program help much in this case? Maybe if only for slashdot cause > from some reason it always takes so long to load. any help is fine/ > comments. thanks > -adam > > Time is a great teacher, unfortunately it kills all it's students - Berlioz > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 0:12:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C7F37B423; Mon, 14 May 2001 00:11:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4E79Lk40096; Mon, 14 May 2001 00:09:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Sue Blake" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Kathy Quinlan" , "N6REJ" , , Subject: RE: I'm leaving Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 00:09:17 -0700 Message-ID: <006201c0dc44$ca69ebc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010514084709.A68348@welearn.com.au> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Sue Blake >Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 3:47 PM >To: Rahul Siddharthan >Cc: Kathy Quinlan; N6REJ; freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG; >freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: I'm leaving > > >On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> >> Often you can find the answers in the docs if you know where to look. > >And that is exactly the problem faced by many newbies: not knowing >where to look, nor realising they're there when they've found it. They >can't tell because there are concepts that they don't have, and when >they look at the documentation they might find vaguely familiar words >which are not used in every day speech and which have a particular >meaning to people with a formal computer education. > This is exactly why I wrote my book The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide - to hand-hold the people coming in from a Windows environment to a FreeBSD environment, who have a grasp of the terminology used in Windows. (and which is teriffically damaging as Microsoft has been on a 20-year campaign to doublespeak the entire industry. Just to give you an example I had to spend 3 pages explaining that there IS a difference between the word "Domain" used in Microsoft Windows networking, and used everywhere else.) >The man pages do this a lot. For example, in ls(1) we have a few words >that probably won't be understood without unix knowledge, and I have >no problem with that. Words like "FIFO", "symbolic link", etc >need to be looked up in a unix text somewhere and learned. Until No - these are not "UNIX" words in particular, they are general computer science terms. >then, you are not so likely to need the relatively more advanced stuff >that they are found in. Part of the deal is learning about these things. > >What really stumps people is when, reading in that partially familiar >environment, they must stop and try to figure out more common sounding >words like: > >lexicographical order >reursively >whiteouts >deprecated >colon-delimited > >With these, once you've seen them in a unix context they're obvious, >but they don't have instant meaning that leaps out for a beginner. > >Some man pages restate these in more common words or show very >easy examples where their meanings are apparent. Our man pages >for the common user and setup commands could be improved by a >going-over with this perspective in mind, perhaps referring to >others such as the Tru64 man pages for ideas. In other documents, >such as the Handbook, we could use something like a newbie review >team to make sure that unnecessary difficulties don't creep >in or they are linked to explanations or a glossary. > >That'd be lot of work. Meanwhile we have to be more aware of >the nature of their difficulties. > That is a good idea, any writing can be helped by conciseness. Not only adding examples but how many man pages have things that are frankly wrong in them I wonder? But, it doesen't really address the fundamental problem your talking about with newbies - it is that there's a basic paradigm that has to be used to approach UNIX. People who have come at it with only Windows experience are coming from a paradigm that in recent years has been designed to give it's users as little information about how things _really_work_ as opposed to how _microsoft_windows_ works. Your talking about a company that would happily replace all instances of FIFO in it's documentation with WSIB then allude as how this is short for "Windows Sequential Inline Buffer" and make no mention of FIFO anywhere, if they thought it would gain them a competitive advantage. They have been doing this with Internet technologies since they got into it, and people that only have been raised on this diet have an incredibly f&*k up understanding of ordinary Internet terms, which makes it hard to wean them off Windows. >> But I find that most people (even intelligent, computer-literate >> people) get intimidated by it, even though it works well and the ports >> system etc are appealing. These people have problems with the chaotic >> nature of linux distributions: but for some reason they find it too >> difficult to adjust to the FreeBSD mindset, even when it's >> demonstrated to them that you can easily do with FreeBSD just about >> anything you can do with Linux. > >Yep. There might only be one or two things that are hard to understand, >but they are presented in such a foreign and frighteneing environment >that suddenly nothing makes sense and it's not clear exactly where >the problem is. Then asking questions about it is real tricky. > No, they aren't presented in a "foreign" environment, they are presented in the "normal" environment - the problem is that the windows-only admin has been fed goat cheese for so long they don't understand that normal cheese isn't supposed to stink. >> Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of the >> install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web browser, >> and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? >> Then when the user logs in and wants to learn more about the system, >> there's no need to poke around in /usr/share/doc (many people don't >> seem to realise it exists, until it's pointed out to them): they can >> just click and read. Some sort of tweak could be made to the >> KDE/GNOME help browsers to include the basic FreeBSD stuff there too. > >While that would be great, the person in this case was having >trouble getting his head around what was required to install, >a problem that exceeded what he had managed to extract from the >docs. But, he didn't look at all the docs that are out there, don't you see? This isn't a problem with a falling down of the FreeBSD docs. The problem is that we have here a user that isn't committed enough to spend the 3 hours to walk into a bookstore, and pick up a piece of documentation (ie: my book) that _would_ help him, and read it and see for himself that it _would_ help him and buy it!!! He's probably never even touched a Linux book either although the technical bookstores are stuffed with them!!! But, I'll bet that he as spent at least $500 on Windows books. >I include part of his -questions post below as an example. >I can't figure out what he wants, but I can tell that he's really >thinking and applying himself to solving the problem. His previously >good conceptual tools have let him down and diligent reading of the >docs has't saved him. > Well, I have no sympathy as at least FreeBSD _supplies_ docs _for free_ on the website - that's far better than what you get when you buy a copy of Windows, there's no docs supplied at all! >On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 11:36:23PM -0700, N6REJ wrote: > >> the major thing I'm not too sure about is whether I should tell >it I want it >> to put things in the boot partition or not, and then wether I >need to make >> drive c "bootable" or not. I mean I know it needs to be for >dos, and it is >> currently of course, but FBSD does'nt seem to recognize that fact. I >> thought I had it done right this morning but after I powered down it said >> bad partition. >> I want c: drive to be accesible as /c and d: as /d: ( ESPECIALLY >D: ) which >> are both FAT32 so that I can easily retrieve files I have stored >there and >> put somethere 2 if I choose too. > >What you see above is a person coming to FreeBSD with some decent >working knowledge of his old environment, applying those concepts >that he has already to try to understand what's required for >installing FreeBSD. It's useless to tell him to forget his old OS, >because at his point there is no way to tell which concepts are >microsoftisms and which are not. No way. We who know more than he >have to meet him in the middle until we have a common language. >Because we can. > We already have by supplying free docs within FreeBSD, the caliber that aren't anywhere near the free ones supplied with any Windows installation. We alreay have by supplying books that cost money, and that sell for cheaper than any serious Windows book does, books that go in depth into this sort of problem. I have a whole part of a chapter devoted to clearing away all this inconsistent rubbish dos/windowisims terminology he is using on filesystems. >> I really don't think it's so difficult to use FreeBSD if you read the >> docs, but many people don't realise just how good the docs are... > >Heartily agreed. But it depends so much on where you're coming from. > >I raise again the old example doc >http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/slow/ready.html >People say this summary is very harsh, and I agree, but nobody can point >to parts of it and agree that that knowledge is _not_ a preprequisite. > >There is no path to success without a clear starting point. >We need to rethink: > > Exactly what are we expecting newcomers to know, and I don't agree with this at all. I think that your not going to be able to gain consensus in The FreeBSD Community as to what a _detailed_ set of expectations are. Certainly, YOU can propose a _general_ set of expectations, and probably get a majority to sign off on it, but a general set of expectations is not an exact set. Once you start getting detailed enough for it to be an exact set, your not going to get a majority consensus. > why can't we state those expectations clearly? > I think that most people in The FreeBSD Community that have a specific set of expectations for what a newbie should know, can in fact, state them pretty clearly. But, I also think that the majority of people that got into FreeBSD didn't do it through a regimented training program, but rather by ploughing on through, and as such don't really care about such things. In short, it's the argument "I had to work and sweat my way to understanding and I made it, so if your complaining to me about how hard it is, then I'm not that sympathetic." Just because this argument isn't Politically Correct, doesen't make it wrong. Fortunately, there are some people (like myself) who once we have ploughed on through, we are willing to reach a hand back and pull some newbies along a broken trail. But, if it's Newbie Expectations that you want', well here's mine: Guide to Proper Newbie Expectations to have before running FreeBSD The following is a bit of a guide that I wrote up which should be read by anyone who thinks they want to run FreeBSD. These are what I would call "The FreeBSD Community's minimum expectations for you" if there was such a thing and they had expectations. Happily, there's not, but it may help you to pretend that there is so this is why these are here. Use at your own risk! 1) We didn't write FreeBSD to make things easy for YOU! We wrote FreeBSD to make things easy for US! What this basically means is that if you need to do computational things that are similar to the computational things we need to do, then FreeBSD will probably makes things easier for you. But, if your needs aren't our needs, then there's less liklihood that it will make a difference if you learn FreeBSD or not. 2) We don't (in general) make money off of your use of FreeBSD. I know this is amazing, but there is no secret way that advertising revenue is making us all millionaires. You see, all the IPO activity and the dot-commers that were active in the year 2000 pretty much killed it for us - the Linux people were able to manufacture a bunch of paper companies and make millions of dollars from ignorant investors, but we never got around to doing this with FreeBSD before Wall Street wised up. Like someone else said, FreeBSD users make money the "eld fasoned waye - waee EARN it" What this means is that our interest in seeing you with a successful FreeBSD installation is that of fans at a sports game - we will happily cheer you on if you win, but if you lose, we really don't feel that we owe you a consolation prize. 3) We think it's unfair if you aren't willing to spend the same money on hardware you use for FreeBSD, as on hardware for That Other Operating System. We think it was sometime in 1996 that a newbie actually signed on and said "Hey, guys, I want to run FreeBSD and _I_DON'T_HAVE_A_MACHINE_YET_ and _WHAT_SHOULD_I_BUY?_ We still treasure that moment with a warm spot in our hearts. Meanwhile, understand that just like you would never go buy a WANic405 for use under Windows 95, because Windows 95 drivers don't exist for it, we would never go buy a _insert-usb-mouse-parallel-port-tapedrive-floppy-controller-vibrator-here_ for use with FreeBSD because FreeBSD drivers don't exist for it. We ALSO wouldn't expect to take that running FreeBSD system with a WANic405 in it and convert it to run under Windows 95 and we don't think you should expect to take that running Windows 95 system with a PCTel Winmodem in it and convert it to run under FreeBSD. 4) We feel it's reasonable to expect 2 weeks of your time understanding FreeBSD. Of course, we mean the SAME kind of time that you would spend if your boss would give you 2 weeks for a project, ie: 80 hours. We feel that 80 hours can easily be divided up over a month's time of 3 hours every evening getting to know FreeBSD. We figure that if you have prior computer experience and you've spent 3 hours every evening attempting to install FreeBSD for a month, then that's pretty reasonable for a brand new operating system you've never seen before, and you will have a running system out of it. 5) We expect that if your going to make unfavorable comparisons between FreeBSD and other operating systems, that you are going to know FreeBSD front, back, up, down, and sideways. In short, newbies that make a lot of "Well, linnnuuxx has THIS and FreeBSD is so LAME for not having it" kinds of remarks basically succeed in making themselves look like idiots. 6) We expect that your not going to be foolish enough to install an operating system you know nothing about, and have no prior experience on particular hardware with, onto a production system that has data on it you want to keep. In short, a newbie installing FreeBSD onto a multiboot system with 4 different copies of Windows on it that can be selected by some convenient boot program, is a newbie that is about to permanently lose all his data. Look, can't you go down to the back loading dock of Intel and dig out an old 4GB IDE disk from their dumpster or something then use that for your first FreeBSD installation? Seriously, if your not even willing to spend that much money to safeguard your data, then don't come running to us when you chop your foot off. You can get beautiful, 3 year old, server-quality Pentiums for a few hundred bucks from Ebay and use them for test systems, then once you understand what your doing, you can try farting around with multiboot. 7) We expect that your not under some artificial time limit to have a running FreeBSD system up. Like the saying goes, Your Lack Of Prepardness Is Not Our Emergency. If you boss just came to you and told you to get a FreeBSD system up and running in 2 weeks, and you've never seen a FreeBSD system before, well then there's a lot of jobs out there looking for people, we are sure you can find something in 2 weeks. Seriously, trying to learn something under pressure is not the way to do things. There's companies that sell prebuilt FreeBSD servers if you really are in this situation. 8) Finally, and most importantly, we expect that you have a CLEAR IDEA of what kind of problem your going to solve by setting up FreeBSD, and that your POSITIVE that setting up FreeBSD is going to solve it. Since by definition (since you haven't set up FreeBSD before) you shouldn't know if FreeBSD really will solve the problem or not, an excellent way to find out before spending the trouble is to ask us. And, please don't waste our time asking if FreeBSD is going to do this or do that - you got a problem, by Gawd spit it out, boy! If you need to know if FreeBSD will act as a fileserver for both UNIX and Windows clients, by golly spit that out - don't start by making a bunch of assumptions about HOW FreeBSD is going to do this and then start beating around the bush asking Will FreeBSD support ACL's over Appleytalk with Macintosh clients, leaving us to sit there attempting to guess what in Sam Hill your actually trying to accomplish! Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 2:26:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0711137B423 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 02:26:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from damienchampagne@yahoo.com) Received: from [209.246.76.125] (dialup-209.246.76.125.Dial1.NewYork1.Level3.net [209.246.76.125]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA08465 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 02:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: damienchampagne@pop.mail.yahoo.com Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 05:32:37 -0400 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org From: Damien Champagne Subject: POP email client for darwin Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- Hello, Is there an email client for freeBSD that allows for POP access? I've been introduced to freeBSD via OSX. Years ago I used to use PINE as my email client, but even though I can run it in Darwin, I've realized it's not for POP (or is it?) The Mail application that ships with OSX is lousy, and I'd like to do much more in the command-line environment. Also, is there anything I can do to spread freeBSD (and open-source) in the world? Thank You, Damien Champagne _______________ Damien Champagne Evil Genius: Slugs! He created slugs! They can't hear, they can't speak, they can't operate machinery. If I were creating the world, I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would've started with lasers, eight o'clock, day one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 2:49: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin9.bigpond.com (juicer34.bigpond.com [139.134.6.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B1F37B423 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.50]) by mailin9.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDBKUG00.GCT; Mon, 14 May 2001 19:54:16 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail8.bigpond.com (Claudes-Top-Fuel-MailRouter V2.9c 17/9047729); 14 May 2001 19:48:54 Message-ID: <042b01c0dc5b$16f4cad0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: , "Damien Champagne" References: Subject: Re: POP email client for darwin Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:48:51 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been using pine to collect mail from remote POP servers for a couple years at least .... theres a bit minor bit of fiddling with pinerc involved but thats all (I think the info you need is in the pine FAQ, but if you can't locate it let me know and I'll send one of my pinerc files) > > Is there an email client for freeBSD that allows for POP access? I've > been introduced to freeBSD via OSX. Years ago I used to use PINE as > my email client, but even though I can run it in Darwin, I've > realized it's not for POP (or is it?) The Mail application that ships > with OSX is lousy, and I'd like to do much more in the command-line > environment. > > Also, is there anything I can do to spread freeBSD (and open-source) > in the world? > > Thank You, Damien Champagne > _______________ > Damien Champagne > > Evil Genius: Slugs! He created slugs! They can't hear, they can't > speak, they can't operate machinery. If I were creating the world, I > wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would've > started with lasers, eight o'clock, day one. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 3:48:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from deborah.paradise.net.nz (deborah.paradise.net.nz [203.96.152.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C82E37B42C for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 03:48:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brerfarm@paradise.net.nz) Received: from brerfarm (203-96-156-197.tnt6.paradise.net.nz [203.96.156.197]) by deborah.paradise.net.nz (Postfix) with SMTP id 4CCA11F9D5D; Mon, 14 May 2001 22:48:23 +1200 (NZST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Pearce Reply-To: brerfarm@paradise.net.nz To: "Fatkulin B. G." Subject: Re: Want to get aquainted with FreeBSD Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:52:39 +1200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01051422523900.00298@brerfarm> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Frank, Are you running a recent version of FreeBSD, from a fresh install? I'm using 4.2 BTW. If I type "ls -l libXt* " in "/usr/X11R6/lib" I get this: brerfarm# ls -l libXt* -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 469082 Nov 10 2000 libXt.a lrwxrwxrwx 1 root wheel 10 May 5 23:55 libXt.so -> libXt.so.6 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 336239 Nov 10 2000 libXt.so.6 -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 21742 Nov 10 2000 libXtst.a lrwxrwxrwx 1 root wheel 12 May 5 23:55 libXtst.so -> libXtst.so.6 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 20262 Nov 10 2000 libXtst.so.6 Try this on your machine. It should be similar. You may not have a libXt.so.6, but you may have a lib.Xt.so. If so, try to symlink it to libXt.so.6 For example, if you had libXt.so, you would need to symlink to it by typing: ln -s libXt.so libXt.so.6 You might need to link from some other libXt.so.* to get it to work. For example, you may have a libXt.so.5, which you would symlink by typing: ln -s libXt.so.5 libXt.so.6 If that doesn't work, try reinstalling the X server, or run the install program ("/stand/sysinstall") and go Configure>Packages and look for something that looks like it will have the libs in it. BTW, Netscape on UNIX/Linux is not very good. You may want to try Konqueror, which is part of KDE2, which is a very good window manager for X. Another option is Opera, but I'm not sure it's been ported to FreeBSD yet. I've used it on NetBSD, and it's really fast, and looks real pretty. Good luck with your problem. Chris Pearce. On Monday 14 May 2001 21:51, you wrote: > Sorry, I can not help you because I am also newcomer to FreeBSD world. > But I have a question to you by myself. May be you I more advanced. > When I try to start Netscape in XWindow > my machine sais: > ld.so. failed: cant find shared library libXt.so.6.0 > > What can I do? > > Ismail Bulatovich from Russia. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 4: 0:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.udlug.org (apollo.udlug.org [216.27.156.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F2CD37B422 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 04:00:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ruddy@udlug.org) Received: (qmail 28581 invoked by uid 1000); 14 May 2001 11:00:23 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 14 May 2001 11:00:23 -0000 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:00:23 +0000 (GMT) From: "Bob C. Ruddy" To: Subject: Re: POP email client for darwin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org check out fetchmail Bob On Mon, 14 May 2001, Damien Champagne wrote: -> ->-- ->Hello, -> ->Is there an email client for freeBSD that allows for POP access? I've ->been introduced to freeBSD via OSX. Years ago I used to use PINE as ->my email client, but even though I can run it in Darwin, I've ->realized it's not for POP (or is it?) The Mail application that ships ->with OSX is lousy, and I'd like to do much more in the command-line ->environment. -> ->Also, is there anything I can do to spread freeBSD (and open-source) ->in the world? -> ->Thank You, Damien Champagne ->_______________ ->Damien Champagne -> ->Evil Genius: Slugs! He created slugs! They can't hear, they can't ->speak, they can't operate machinery. If I were creating the world, I ->wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would've ->started with lasers, eight o'clock, day one. -> ->To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org ->with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message -> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 5:40:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD23D37B42C; Mon, 14 May 2001 05:40:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f4ECcFx44541; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:38:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3AFFD1B6.16179EB0@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 06:38:14 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Doug Young , Stefan Parvu , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <016d01c0dba9$62e67400$0300a8c0@oracle> <3AFE87BF.E2A53BC0@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010513134409.D62345@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 07:10:23AM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > > I think the default install works very well, and there is a 'desktop > > config' option in sysinstall. I don't think it should include either KDE > > or gnome, though. My personal preferences are fvwm (1.24, NOT 2.0; the > > config file is easier to alter) and windowmaker. > > [...] > > Could you please go and use sysinstall so we're at least on the same > page as to what it already does? > I do, Kris, 4.x branch. "Configure XFree86 Desktop." Like I said, wm and fvwm2 (and Afterstep) install quite well and gnome and KDE give me problems. > > On a different note, one more: Add 4.x-STABLE tags to the CVSup > > repositories so we don't have to back out to OPTIONS to install packages > > after we've started tracking STABLE. > > I'm confused by this statement. What's a cvsup repository (CVS > repository?), and what's wrong with the CVS branch tags (RELENG_4, > ...)? > Okay, thinking about it, I mis-typed. When I go to get _packages_ after CVSup'ing to -STABLE, it complains until I change my tag in OPTIONS back to -RELEASE. Sorry for the confusion, I be dain bramaged. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 5:41:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from tiku.hut.fi (tiku.hut.fi [130.233.228.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7280437B43C; Mon, 14 May 2001 05:41:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sparvu@alpha.hut.fi) Received: from alpha.hut.fi (sparvu@alpha.hut.fi [130.233.224.50]) by tiku.hut.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28603; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:39:15 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:39:15 +0300 (EET DST) From: Stefan Parvu To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Stefan Parvu , Doug Young , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving In-Reply-To: <20010513134145.C62345@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ok guys Anyway having a WM with all the godies for FreeBSD would be nice. stefan On Sun, 13 May 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:41:45 -0700 > From: Kris Kennaway > To: Stefan Parvu > Cc: Doug Young , Kris Kennaway , Rahul Siddharthan , Kathy Quinlan , Sue Blake , N6REJ , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: I'm leaving > > On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 03:02:58PM +0300, Stefan Parvu wrote: > > > > "default GUI install" is a subject to discuss. In my oppinion is not a > > good idea because: > > > > 1. The core OS should be simple and simple to install. No GUI for that. > > Make a comparations between Solaris, OpenBSD, Microsoft, Linux RedHat, > > Suse. Time it and think again. As well look to the complexity of GUI > > Install stuff. > > > > 2. The text mode is really cool. Is fast and it's simple. No extra effort. > > > > 3. No problems with video cards or VESA generic mode. Keep it simple. For > > what do you need install GUI ??? Comfort ? Help for new users ??? > > > > At least these 3 points makes a good point to keep the sysinstall stuff. > > If new users come and want to learn the stuff is simple: Grab a doc and > > read it. Why we should have a "right click" formula as Microsoft or other > > commercial UNIXes does ??? Sysinstall anyway is simple to use more than > > any GUI ... > > You've misunderstood. We're not talking about a replacement for > sysinstall (though that is -- slowly -- being developed with the full > understanding of what you said above in mind); we're talking about the > capability for sysinstall to install a Window Manager + desktop > environment for the user to provide a more friendly face than a csh > prompt. Actually, we're not even talking about that; it's already > existed for some time -- we were talking about someone actually making > a nice, FreeBSD-customized desktop environment for one of the popular > WMs (I don't personally care which). > > Kris > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 6:19: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (sol.serv.u-szeged.hu [160.114.51.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED57637B42C; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:18:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (8.9.3+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id PAA22422; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:18:10 +0200 (MEST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14zIEF-0008OI-00; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:17:39 +0200 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:17:39 +0200 From: Szilveszter Adam To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010514151739.A3213@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010514084709.A68348@welearn.com.au> <006201c0dc44$ca69ebc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <006201c0dc44$ca69ebc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 12:09:17AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello everybody [Technical information: Since I think everybody who is on the Cc: list at present is member of one of the two list this message will get posted to, I am pruning the others. I am aware that N6REJ is no longer with us but I think that this sort of in-fighting might be of no particular interest to him, esp the last mail must not have been very encouraging to a newbie. Cc: lists have a tendency to grow uncontrallably, luckily some sane MUAs allow the "List Reply" function.] Disclaimer note: I know that Ted likes to spur a nice flame session on -advocacy every so often when he feels "strongly" about something but I am also aware that he wants to help. So, I am trying very hard to not not be put off by his style but rather react to the points raised. In the off-chance that this might not succeed in some cases, it means that I have been unable to control my dissatisfaction. I still think that if someone hates customers, they should not be working in the Customer Service (ie advocacy) department, you cannot actually help people when you have an unflattering opinion of them. And this is not only for you Ted, there have been reactions on -doc lately in Re: ftp.freebsd.org problems (which was completely our fault as far as the communication disaster that still hasn't settled fully goes btw) that made me feel sick and ask myself: Maybe I like the software, and software is not to blame in any case, but do I really want to be identified with this group of people as well? With this in mind, let's go: On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 12:09:17AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> > >> Often you can find the answers in the docs if you know where to look. And quite often not. PR Support: Exhibit No1 Yesterday I helped a poster who submitted a PR because he could not install FreeBSD. Although he was quite vague about his hardware setup, only pasting the output of the Linux "mount" command, but somehow I had a gut feeling that his problem (he could not actually write out the partition information in sysinstall) was due to the fact that he was trying to install into an extended partition. Upon asking for clarification, he promptly confirmed that this was the case and could continue on his way. Upon looking at the documentation, however, I was very surprised to find that not only do we not say on our front page that FreeBSD (unlike many PC OSs) does require a primary parition to install (and if possible the first one, since you have to be within the 1024th cyl to boot) but upon first glance I could not find it anywhere. Maybe it is just me (I do not remeber from where I learned that you need a primary for installation), but I think that given that I am familiar with the structure of our docs, a newbie is not likely to fare any better. (But eg I have a hard time seeing how running DOS binaries on FreeBSD is pertinent for INSTALL.TXT) As others have suggested a regular proof-reading and QA team would be useful as already employed by many other projects and companies. This is also a good way to show how people without necessary high-level coding skills can help out. But this needs to be organized much like the freebsd-newbies effort, that it is actually visible, because "insider wisdom" that "we welcome new contributors" is not actaully readable on the web page although incidentally that is the place people are going to look at. Also, simply saying: "Read the doxxx dammit and submit patches in ready-to-insert format when you're ready" is not going to cut it, the effort needs to be led and coordinated by experienced folks who can also act as liaisons to the "innards" of the project, by talking to those who'd actually rather code than talk. (and there are people like that on the FreeBSD project) Also, they could supply necessary background info on items that are not obvious at first sight but are actually important. Doc Project: Exhibit No2 Although I do not claim to have actually led a documentation project or even part of it, but there was some movement some time back that the FreeBSD documentation be translated into Hungarian. We even started out and even though I could not donate much of my personal time to the actual translation, it soon turned out that people needed a person to turn to when they had questions about how the doc project technically worked, and there needed to be someone who whacked them back into shape when they did not obey the rules. Although these people have never used DocBook in their whole lives before, and most did not even have the docproj port installed (understand, most in Hungary are on modems and do not have the luxury of free broadband Net access, on the contrary, they still pay by the minute.) so did not even undestand some of my yawnings but after a couple of iterations they simply got used to it and started to conform to the rules. I set up a "test" environment to which I co-d the latest translations and made sure it was DocBook-ly correct and turned it into HTML, so that they could see the result of their work on the web page and so that other Hungarian users could comment on it. This endavour would not have been possible had it been left at: "Wanna submit doxxx? Great. Send patches!" but this way at least the chance exists that these people might teach others too and so more and more doc makers would join us and ultimately maybe the Project too. > This is exactly why I wrote my book The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's > Guide - Yes, it looks like a very useful resource! Thank you for that! (Sorry I could not buy it yet because it costs approx one third of a month 's wage for an average Hungarian emloyee, not to mention students...) > is teriffically damaging as Microsoft has been on a 20-year campaign to > doublespeak the entire industry. Just to give you an example I had to spend > 3 pages explaining that there IS a difference between the word "Domain" used > in Microsoft Windows networking, and used everywhere else.) Maybe I am just acting very dumb here, but most people I have spoken here about it either had no clue about any of them (which is good because they are not yet "spoiled") or have only heard about the Internet variety. Which again is good. This may be because Windows has a long history of coming with localized docs, and the two "domains" are translated using different words most of the time so people do not confuse them. And many places do not use Windows domains at all, because win95/98 does not require it. > >The man pages do this a lot. For example, in ls(1) we have a few words > >that probably won't be understood without unix knowledge, and I have > >no problem with that. Words like "FIFO", "symbolic link", etc > >need to be looked up in a unix text somewhere and learned. Until > > No - these are not "UNIX" words in particular, they are general computer > science terms. Khm, khm. Come on Ted. What's next? "Before you touch this complex and expensive equipment called "a computer" you have to present proofs that you have succesfully completed a CS Basics class"? Why does someone *using* a computer need to get involved with *computer science* at all? Do you have to be an electrician to use a household appliance? This might have been true in the old days when computers were not an ubiquity, but rare and fragile species filling rooms apiece. But then there was really hardly any need for *users* on the system: users simply submitted their jobs and operators fed it to the machine. My father is an engineer and when he went to university he had to do this to get his complex calculations done. It seems to me that many diehards still long for this era, but it's past, gone, for good or worse. The question is not (as you suggest later on) what a FIFO is called but whetever you are required to know what a FIFO is and how it operates etc to be able to install and administer a FreeBSD (or any other) box. We are not talking about people versed in Windows programming who now try to convert to FreeBSD... we are talking about that mystical species, who seems to think that computers are not only for their own good but rather for what they can do and their usefulness can be measured by this. And sometimes we seem to be cheeky on purpose, in an attempt to keep others out. Like: > >deprecated This word is not used anywhere outside of standardization bodies. Why are we still sticking to it? > That is a good idea, any writing can be helped by conciseness. Not only > adding examples but how many man pages have things that are frankly wrong > in them I wonder? I'm all in on this one. That's why it is important to have good developer-documenter relations because while it is not in the job description of a developer to have excellent verbal communication skills, it is them who undestand the code best. > are coming from a paradigm that in recent years has been designed to give > it's > users as little information about how things _really_work_ as opposed to how > _microsoft_windows_ works. Objection. The last sentence should read: "to give it's users as little information about how things really work as opposed to how you can do them on MS Windows"...:-) They are not actually telling you up front how Windows works although sometimes I'd be really curious to know:-) > Your talking about a company that would happily replace all instances of > FIFO > in it's documentation with WSIB then allude as how this is short for > "Windows Sequential Inline Buffer" and make no mention of FIFO anywhere, > if they thought it would gain them a competitive advantage. They have been > doing this with Internet technologies since they got into it, and people > that only have been raised on this diet have an incredibly f&*k up > understanding > of ordinary Internet terms, which makes it hard to wean them off Windows. Maybe again because of the language thing, the only "side-effect" of MS-izations here I can see that web designers choose to ignore the standards and design for IE, because everybody uses that anyway, and that newbie users tend to think that while IE is "The Internet" because that's what the link on their desktop says, Netscape is a browser. How the two relate in their heads I do not know. By the time I got to know IE I was already well aware that it is a browser. (actually, a browser interface, just like Mozilla is just an interface to the Mozilla framework whatever it will be used for later) But the users (unlike the designers) are rather easy to teach once you catch their attention. Have done that on numerous occassions here at the dorm with non-technical users with success:-) > >Yep. There might only be one or two things that are hard to understand, > >but they are presented in such a foreign and frighteneing environment > >that suddenly nothing makes sense and it's not clear exactly where > >the problem is. Then asking questions about it is real tricky. Totally agree. I witnessed (OK, I did more than that:-) a Linux user who was intrigued by my FreeBSD success story and decided to switch to it, how he became totally uneasy although he was used to working on the command line. But at once he could no longer be sure eg how to safely shut down his machine, if the halt command would still work and DTRT. And if you think that this is nonsense, than try to use the killall command on various Unices and watch! For best results, try it as root! So much for the alleged "normal environment" that is supposed to be the mother of all computing wisdom. Of course, with a little bit of gentle help he was soon well on his way and today he is sometimes a more "violent" proponent of FreeBSD than I'd like to see. > No, they aren't presented in a "foreign" environment, they are presented > in the "normal" environment - the problem is that the windows-only admin > has been fed goat cheese for so long they don't understand that normal > cheese isn't supposed to stink. Ted, I am sure you are aware that there was a time when people had to be warned that "not all the world uses VMS". So much for the normal environment. "Normal" is what you are familiar with and what you see most around you use. If in your case it is UNIX, it is UNIX for you. But there is no intrinsic relationship between CS and UNIX in the form that you are trying to suggest here. Many CS students today already learn programming on Windows, for good or for worse. But CS itself OS independent. > >> Would it be a good idea to have a "default GUI install" as one of the > >> install options, which sets up either KDE or GNOME, and a web browser, > >> and desktop icons for the HTML-ised version of the FreeBSD handbook? > >> Then when the user logs in and wants to learn more about the system, > >> there's no need to poke around in /usr/share/doc (many people don't > >> seem to realise it exists, until it's pointed out to them): they can > >> just click and read. Some sort of tweak could be made to the > >> KDE/GNOME help browsers to include the basic FreeBSD stuff there too. In re: GUI install, just out of curiosity I decided to give the new GNOME a whirl yesterday. It took an amazing amount of time to compile (even if I don't count the time while it was just waiting for me to wake up and answer the question "Do you want to be hacked?" for GDM) and had an insane number of dependencies. Really hats off to Ade for the work! (as an aside, I think my theory is slowly getting confirmation that if you want a GUI that reasonably resembles Windows, it will end up to be at least as complex, resource-hungry and convoluted as the original... these days, source code and all, troubleshooting GNOME is becoming an impossible undertaking unless you are one of the authors, there is just too many places that it can break) I deleted all my earlier .gnome dirs because I wanted to see what the default install would look like. (I still missed .esd, so I still don't know if ESD would work at all:-) Well, the default install started with an astonishing windows-green desktop and two menu bars that took up much of the screen (presumably one for windows the other for Mac converts) and the possible "customization" for FreeBSD was that there was a fish in the right lower corner which, according to the About box, wastes disk space, eats CPU cycles and generally anyone caught using this applet should be rushed to hospital. (I am not making this up, read it for yourself!) (but maybe it is also in the default install dunno) and the Help browser only incorporates the Handbooks for GNOME, the info pages and maybe the man pages too. Now, this is the place where we should come in. I am sure that the FreeBSD Handbook and FAQ would make a great appearance there. But maybe that would require writing a new interface to the Help browser, dunno. They seem to have switched to XML in the meantime. Although I would not use it as my wm of choice, it may still help newbies with proper customizations. Like how about: you can choose if you want both task bars or just one of them at install time? These only require a proper config file to be copied, no recompile. I do not know the full extent to which GNOME can be scripted, but I know that the FreeBSD project could even produce a custom "Beastie" version of Mozilla with not that great effort:-) > But, he didn't look at all the docs that are out there, don't you see? > > This isn't a problem with a falling down of the FreeBSD docs. The problem > is that we have here a user that isn't committed enough to spend the > 3 hours to walk into a bookstore, and pick up a piece of documentation > (ie: my book) that _would_ help him, and read it and see for himself that > it _would_ help him and buy it!!! He's probably never even touched a Linux > book either although the technical bookstores are stuffed with them!!! But, > I'll bet that he as spent at least $500 on Windows books. Again, I must stress that giving support is different from writing a book in that in a book you can say: I am going this route. You either come with me or you are SOL. In a real support situation, there is actually interaction. If you do not like this, do not answer support questions, that's fine. But do not be mad at people because they want to solve problems, not to gain in-depth knowledge. Of course if somebody is missing the basics than you can (again, gently) point them to the source of info first, and if they do not peruse them, that's their fault, but you have tried, but *expecting* them up-front to know what they are supposed to learn is somewhat funny no? Similarly, after giving the info and working with the person with the problem (which is not the same as just saying something to get them off your neck) I may point the person to additional info, which is tailored to the level of interest, expertise and likely attention-span of the person in question. (Of course having a sheer amount of docs at your disposal may help in this somewhat, to say an undertatement this time) The fact that this works best in a person-on-person setting seems to suggest btw that no matter what kind of AI you use, no "expert system" can fill this very important "help on help" function as well as a human can and I have no problems with that. You may need help to be able to use help sources at all. Many developers are subscribed to FreeBSD lists and "expert level" questions get answered fairly quickly, which is also good. But this "help-on-help" function is underrepresented, sometimes just indicated by silence, sometimes reduced to the anti-support hymn "RTFM! And get L0st! (192bpm 2001 remix)" which seems to be a smash hit everywhere where people are supposed to help others, not just computers. List support: Exhibit No3 Although I do not write as much on the FreeBSD.org lists as I used to, but this has to do a lot with the fact that I no longer use -STABLE so I would not be able to help much. But "at home", on the Hungarian users' mailing list I am usually the person who does first line support and "extracts" info from the seemingly sometimes unintellegible postings and quite often someone can help the person afterwards. This requires patience, good people skills, good verbal communication and an undying cheerful attitude, but on the days when I do not feel up to snuff on these, I simply step back from the keyboard and do not write anything so as not to accidentally insult people when they do not deserve it. What if the person you asked about something at say IRS would answer by mocking you for not understanding tax law instead answering? And it is not the "I am entitled to" part that is important here, it is the "standards of public service" part, paid or not. An OpenSource project, to quote myself, is sooo much more than just code. Among other things, it is also public service. It is even more so in the case of a centralized project like the BSDs where developers are often the face of the projects when they speak from @bsd.org addresses. > Well, I have no sympathy as at least FreeBSD _supplies_ docs _for free_ > on the website - that's far better than what you get when you buy a copy > of Windows, there's no docs supplied at all! Ted, I cannot believe you are serious. Have you visited www.microsoft.com recently by any chance? It is choke-full of docs, even the ResKits are mostly online although you have to pay for those in book form. Agreed, finding something on that site is not easy by any means, but the (very insecure:-) IIS Indexing service works wonders so a Search should turn up a lot. Hell, if I do not know what a Windows system file is good for, I just go to the MS home page, enter the file name into the Search box and voila. Usually the answer is somewhere in there. > >What you see above is a person coming to FreeBSD with some decent > >working knowledge of his old environment, applying those concepts > >that he has already to try to understand what's required for > >installing FreeBSD. It's useless to tell him to forget his old OS, > >because at his point there is no way to tell which concepts are > >microsoftisms and which are not. No way. We who know more than he > >have to meet him in the middle until we have a common language. > >Because we can. Yes. That's my strategy too. > I don't agree with this at all. I think that your not going to be able to > gain > consensus in The FreeBSD Community as to what a _detailed_ set of > expectations > are. IMHO it should be not as much a warning sign to those who are outside but rather a warning sign to those on *this* side of the counter. Similar to the "Our Policy" signs at some companies. So that those who bother to write back to a poster might refresh their memory that you are *not* required to hold a CS degree to ask a question just because it is more convenient to answer. Yes, this is harsh, but this what all "people jobs" are about. Smartassing is never desired. So a general consensus is fine, details can form themselves out. Like the one on the Hungarian Linux Beginner maillist which says: RTFM is not an answer on this list. > > why can't we state those expectations clearly? > In short, it's the argument "I had to work and sweat my way to understanding > and I made > it, so if your complaining to me about how hard it is, then I'm not that > sympathetic." > > Just because this argument isn't Politically Correct, doesen't make it > wrong. Hmmmm.... while I do not care about PC when it means something else than a computer, I think that once you are taking the trouble to answer this attitude does not fly. > Fortunately, > there are some people (like myself) who once we have ploughed on through, we > are willing > to reach a hand back and pull some newbies along a broken trail. Contrast this laudable attitude with what you write below... well... > But, if it's Newbie Expectations that you want', well here's mine: And here is mine: > Guide to Proper Newbie Expectations to have before running FreeBSD Guide to proper relations between members of the project with varying knowledge level. > The following is a bit of a guide that I wrote up which should be read by > anyone > who thinks they want to run FreeBSD. These are what I would call "The > FreeBSD > Community's minimum expectations for you" if there was such a thing and they > had expectations. Happily, there's not, but it may help you to pretend that > there > is so this is why these are here. Use at your own risk! This guide is meant to be some guidance to those who decide to ask for help on the various FreeBSD support forums and to those that decide to answer them for whatever reason. > 1) We didn't write FreeBSD to make things easy for YOU! We wrote FreeBSD to > make > things easy for US! 1) This is not a pissing contest. Respect is the name of the game here: The person asking a question or answering you is not threatening to break your precious chinaware nor is he/she insulting your mother so chill off. After all, this is just a computer program, not an end of the world as we know it. Poster, understand that people who answer are doing so in their free time and usually put in tremendous amount of work into this thing we call the FreeBSD Project. Respect it. Answerer, be aware that people generally do not ask questions just for the heck of it, but only if they have problems. You know what kind of frustrating feeling that is. Try to symphatise (sp?) with the person and work with him/her on a solution rather than giving a fast answer to get him/her off your chest. If you know a better way than what the poster is presumably aiming at, go ahead and mention it. People are interested in solutions... respect the poster. If you are more knowledgeable, let it show, but let it rather shine through than kick them in the head. People appreciate this. <...> > 2) We don't (in general) make money off of your use of FreeBSD. I know this <...> > FreeBSD before Wall Street wised up. Like someone else said, FreeBSD users > make money the "eld fasoned waye - waee EARN it" What this means is that > our interest in seeing you with a successful FreeBSD installation is that of > fans at a sports game - we will happily cheer you on if you win, but if you > lose, we really don't feel that we owe you a consolation prize. 2) Poster, understand that there is no business relationship between you and the Project that would "entitle" you to quick and effective support. Answerer, bear in mind that by taking up the challange and answering that question, you are a representative of the Project, even if for that one occasion only. Behave as a repsonsible fan: People are going to judge the team you are out for by your actions and attitude. What's more, since our team always needs new fans, it is your behaviour that may decide if people grow to like us and will want to know more about us, or you turn them off. Understand that there is nothing that would entitle you to be rude to a person even if that person hasn't paid you to be nice to him/her. This is not a business relationship, this is you helping the Project you like. > 3) We think it's unfair if you aren't willing to spend the same money on > hardware you use for FreeBSD, as on hardware for That Other Operating > System. We think it was sometime in 1996 that a newbie actually signed on > and said "Hey, guys, I want to run FreeBSD and _I_DON'T_HAVE_A_MACHINE_YET_ > and _WHAT_SHOULD_I_BUY?_ We still treasure that moment with a warm spot in <...> 3) Poster, be aware that computers tend to be made up of very different hardware items. Some of these are better supported by FreeBSD than others, some may not be supported at all. Please consult the Supported HW list as you would with any other OS purchase. At first this may seem strange, but soon you will see that just a little bit of attention to detail is paying off several times, and after it becomes your habit, it will be almost invisible but always with you. Answerer, most people who ask a question are doing so sitting in front of a computer. (Although Avian Carriers according to RFC 1149 are also getting supported) More often than not, this tends to be their own computer. So don't assume that the person wants to sell his/her machine and get a brand new one, rather they want to make the best out of what they have. While buying a computer may not sound much like a big deal to you, remember that not all people eat, drink and breathe computers, and to many people (hell, most people) in this world a computer is a big piece of value that they cannot buy every other day. If you must say that a hw item is not supported then say so, but in all other cases try to be reasonable. It is only in very limited circumstances that a machine is totally useless under FreeBSD, but even in these cases it is just good common sense to also offer the person advice on what other system might support his/her hardware. The person might find another use for the computer in which it is still useful as supported by FreeBSD etc. Remember, the person came here to try this OS most probably because he/she has heard success stories and nice things about it: he/she is inspired. Do not ruin that inspiration by being rude or condescending. This is the same inspiration that hooked you to computers way back when, after all, right? > 4) We feel it's reasonable to expect 2 weeks of your time understanding > FreeBSD. Of course, we mean the SAME kind of time that you would spend if > your boss would give you 2 weeks for a project, ie: 80 hours. We feel that > 80 hours can easily be divided up over a month's time of 3 hours every > evening getting to know FreeBSD. We figure that if you have prior computer > experience and you've spent 3 hours every evening attempting to install > FreeBSD for a month, then that's pretty reasonable for a brand new operating > system you've never seen before, and you will have a running system out of > it. 4) Poster, understand that getting to know a new system to the point when you can get useful things done on it requires time. You have already taken the first step: you are asking a question. This is good. But be aware that there will be many things for you to learn and to get used to. While there are supporting aids out there to help you, no one can do the actual learning for you. But believe me: Even if it sounds intimidating at first try, you will be all the richer for it when you look back later. Answerer, please be aware, that while this system may be an integral part of your life now, same is not true for everybody. After all, if they knew all the answers, they wouldn't bother to ask a question right? Asking is human and actually may be more work than you think: it involves realizing that you have a problem, analyzing that complex to make out possible components, identifying causes and consequences, and condensing your numerous "missing links" into an answerable short form (aka question) for another human being. Even if the question in front of you doesn't seem like a big deal, view it with the head of the person who sent it: it may be his/her best effort. If needed, ask for clarification, repeatedly if needed. Also remeber that while the documentation may contain a whole lot of useful answers, it is still "code" to which you have to have the underlying "key" to be able to dechiper. Some docs require more of this, some less. So, if needed, point the Poster to pieces of documentation that you think may be useful. But do not simply say: "Read the dox". Once you have the answers, it will be easy to find them in the docs, but until you don't... rather, you as someone who may have more knowledge than the Poster, should peruse the docs regularly to see if your knowledge is still current and to learn about possible quirks you may have not heard about. Even the best docs can profit from someone explaining them in a concise and efficient manner. This is what a human is superior to a machine that can simply keyword search. > 5) We expect that if your going to make unfavorable comparisons between > FreeBSD and other operating systems, that you are going to know FreeBSD > front, back, up, down, and sideways. In short, newbies that make a lot of > "Well, linnnuuxx has THIS and FreeBSD is so LAME for > not having it" kinds of remarks basically succeed in making themselves look > like idiots. 5) Poster, understand that this system may be different (or even very different) from what you know. But this doesn't mean that you cannot get the same things done here. But you will have to re-learn the ways of doing it. When asking a question, make sure that you are asking about your problem and not stating something that you do not know. People may react adversely to this and the whole thing is pointless anyway since you are in the same boat now. Being constructive helps, so that when you have cause for real criticism, it will be better received. Answerer, do not take every opportunity to flame a person for his/her criticism of your favourite piece of software/meaning of your life. Often behind this criticism there is a real problem and a desperation that the person cannot cope with it. Try to help with the problem ignoring the criticsm whenever possible. If needed, take a rest before answering, do something that will relax you. As responsible fan, you do not want to convey the image that your favourite project that you like is made up of a bunch of hooligans, do you? Also, since you have greater knowledge about the issues, you should see that since you are probably not talking about the same thing, there is no point in arguing to death. On the other hand if someone raises a real issue, be frank with them and tell that the criticism is grounded. Do not feel that they insult the project you like: a real fan knows both strengths and weaknesses of the team he is fond of. Simply repeating the "official propaganda line" here will not help, because people are going to feel that you are trying to smartass them, and may even ignore you or the project as "unprofessional" since a professional always knows his worth. > 6) We expect that your not going to be foolish enough to install an > operating system you know nothing about, and have no prior experience on > particular hardware with, onto a production system that has data on it you > want to keep. In short, a newbie installing <...> 6) Poster, be aware that making several OSs coexist on the same system is not an easy task. Prepare yourself: Make full bakcups because there is still a possibility that things might go wrong. Also, not everybody might be familiar with the system combination you want to try, so please be patient if at first nobody answers your question. If you feel uncertain about the procedure, please do not start it because this is a quick way to do damage to your system. Answerer, just because you would never run anoother OS on your computer do not flame someone who would like to. They may have divers reasons for doing so, eg they may want to retain their familiar environment for a while before finally switching over or they just want to evaluate something, or they have a piece of software that won't run on FreeBSD. Instead feel flattered that this person still wants to try your favourite OS. If you don't know how to solve the problem fine, stay tuned, maybe someone will and then you will have learned something as well. > 7) We expect that your not under some artificial time limit to have a > running FreeBSD system up. Like the saying goes, Your Lack Of Prepardness > Is Not Our Emergency. If you boss just came to you and told you to get a > FreeBSD system up and running in 2 weeks, and you've never seen a FreeBSD > system before, well then there's a lot of jobs out there looking for people, > we are sure you can find something in 2 weeks. Seriously, trying to learn > something under pressure is not the way to do things. There's companies > that sell prebuilt FreeBSD servers if you really are in this situation. > 8) Finally, and most importantly, we expect that you have a CLEAR IDEA of > what kind of problem your going to solve by setting up FreeBSD, and that > your POSITIVE that setting up > FreeBSD is going to solve it. 9) Finally and most importantly, if you ask a question, be aware that someone (likely several persons) will have to invest time and resources into finding out what your question was and if they will help you. Remember, in this context only what you say exists of you. People will judge you on the basis of what you say and how. Since you are either already running FreeBSD or want to do it, it is not indifferent what they will think about you. If you answer a question, then do it for real. Don't waste everybody's resources and time by giving seemingly "cute" answers. If you do not want to answer, then don't do it. No one is forcing you. It is just too easy to vent your frustration by kicking the person next to you, but don't do it no matter if you ask or answer. In addition to being bad manners, this doesn't even make sense. Today's askers may be tomorrow's answerers, and vice versa. No matter what you do while with us at the Project, always think about whetether based on the above, this group would want you as a fan? -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Szeged University Szeged Hungary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 8:20:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from kcmgwp01.corp.sprint.com (parker1.sprint.com [208.18.122.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BB037B424 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:20:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tony.marques@mail.sprint.com) Received: from damgwp02.corp.sprint.com (damgwp02 [10.184.140.69]) by kcmgwp01.corp.sprint.com (Switch-2.0.2/Switch-2.0.2) with ESMTP id f4EFKa405848 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:20:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from reopmp01.corp.sprint.com (reopmp01m.corp.sprint.com [144.224.249.75]) by damgwp02.corp.sprint.com (Switch-2.0.2/Switch-2.0.2) with ESMTP id f4EFJkA10805 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:20:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by reopmp01.corp.sprint.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_17190)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09744 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 11:19:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Tony.Marques@mail.sprint.com Disposition-Notification-To: tony.marques@openmail.mail.sprint.com X-OpenMail-Hops: 1 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:19:45 -0400 Message-Id: Subject: Any help is greatly appreiated... MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="openmail-part-2761fbe5-00000001" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --openmail-part-2761fbe5-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline ;Creation-Date="Mon, 14 May 2001 11:19:44 -0400" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To Whom It May Concern: Not sure who to address this issue to (well sort of), but if you can lead me down the right path I'd greatly appreciate it. I am new at all this. I have loaded FreeBSD and the Apache-FP port. I know that the web server is working fine, because I can HTTP to the IP address of the machine that I installed FreeBSD and Apache-FP on. I have created several web pages with Microsoft FrontPage 98 and would now like to publish it to the web server. This is where I am running into a problem and would like some assistance. I did find an email link to the FreeBSD person responsible for this port, but that email address is not working at this point in time. Here is my dilemma and I hope someone can help me out. When I attempt to publish to the web server via it's IP Address it asks for the following: [PICTURE] When I put in the Name and Password that I set-up it comes right back with the same screen. What am I doing wrong? Regards, Tony Marques Systems Engineer Voice: (860)291-1016 Fax: (860)291-1069 EMAIL: Tony.Marques@Mail.Sprint.Com® --openmail-part-2761fbe5-00000001-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 8:42: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from lcmail2.lc.ca.gov (lcmail2.lc.ca.gov [165.107.12.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E676037B43C; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:41:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drewt@writeme.com) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by lcmail2.lc.ca.gov (PMDF V5.2-27 #40821) id <0GDC00G010XMY8@lcmail2.lc.ca.gov>; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tagalong ([165.107.42.167]) by lcmail2.lc.ca.gov (PMDF V5.2-27 #40821) with SMTP id <0GDC00E8V0WTWZ@lcmail2.lc.ca.gov>; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:40:58 -0700 From: Drew Tomlinson Subject: RE: Any help is greatly appreiated... In-reply-to: To: Tony.Marques@mail.sprint.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "FreeBSD Questions (E-mail)" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have cross posted this to -questions. You should ask all questions there. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of > Tony.Marques@mail.sprint.com > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:20 AM > To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Any help is greatly appreiated... > > > To Whom It May Concern: > > Not sure who to address this issue to (well sort of), but if you can > lead me down the right path I'd greatly appreciate it. I am new at all > this. I have loaded FreeBSD and the Apache-FP port. I know > that the web > server is working fine, because I can HTTP to the IP address of the > machine that I installed FreeBSD and Apache-FP on. I have created > several web pages with Microsoft FrontPage 98 and would now like to > publish it to the web server. This is where I am running into > a problem > and would like some assistance. I did find an email link to > the FreeBSD > person responsible for this port, but that email address is > not working > at this point in time. I have worked with the FrontPage extensions a little but not specifically from the port. But let's see if I can get you going. After installing the port, did you run the fpsrvadm.exe program to create your root web? If the port puts it in the default location, you'll find it in /usr/local/frontpage/version4.0/bin. If you have not created a root web, I know you can't publish via a FrontPage client. > Here is my dilemma and I hope someone can help me out. > > When I attempt to publish to the web server via it's IP > Address it asks > for the following: > > [PICTURE] By [PICTURE], do you mean the login box? > When I put in the Name and Password that I set-up it comes right back > with the same screen. What am I doing wrong? You need to use the name and password that you used when creating your root web. This has nothing to do with any accounts on your FBSD box. HTH, Drew > Regards, > Tony Marques > Systems Engineer > Voice: (860)291-1016 > Fax: (860)291-1069 > EMAIL: Tony.Marques@Mail.Sprint.Com® > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 10:31:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355CA37B422; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA2E6D; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:37:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:31:37 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, > newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero > community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO > THE WORK! :-) Getting a "default" desktop added to sysinstall would be rather like pulling teeth. After all, it already has an item to choose a default desktop. And if you do a standard install (which I haven't done in a while, so it may have changed), that question is posed to the installee. Thus, that side of the suggestion is already handled. The other side of it was to "tweak" the desktops for FreeBSD specificity. That can easily be done without changing existing packages. Just create new metapackages. As an example: kde-newbie. This would install the basic kde metapackage, and then proceed to add icons for FreeBSD documentation (and replace the silly Tux icons while it's at it). No need to twist anyone's arms. Just go create a package and submit it. The package won't be installed by default, but it will be available in the appropriate spots, like the kde meta-category. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 16:18: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EEDD37B422; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:18:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F210466C04; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:18:02 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: David Johnson Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010514161802.A45751@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com>; from djohnson@acuson.com on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 10:31:37AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 10:31:37AM -0700, David Johnson wrote: > The other side of it was to "tweak" the desktops for FreeBSD > specificity. That can easily be done without changing existing packages. > Just create new metapackages. As an example: kde-newbie. This would > install the basic kde metapackage, and then proceed to add icons for > FreeBSD documentation (and replace the silly Tux icons while it's at > it). Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about. > No need to twist anyone's arms. Just go create a package and submit it. > The package won't be installed by default, but it will be available in > the appropriate spots, like the kde meta-category. Well, it's not going to be me..I already spend more time on FreeBSD than I can count, if I had the time I would already have done it long ago. Kris --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7AGeqWry0BWjoQKURAv77AJwN82NS1r//U/EICROXfr7oI93akQCeOHSJ G1YJ+StHhXmLWooe38M8urY= =9T0P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 16:37:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from ggong.baycis.com (ggong.baycis.com [209.133.107.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9B337B42C; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:37:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Received: from localhost (ggong@localhost) by ggong.baycis.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4ENbBp42583; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:37:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: ggong.baycis.com: ggong owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:37:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Gilbert Gong X-Sender: ggong@ggong.baycis.com To: Kris Kennaway Cc: David Johnson , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving In-Reply-To: <20010514161802.A45751@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think I would be willing to give this a try. Gilbert On Mon, 14 May 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 10:31:37AM -0700, David Johnson wrote: > > > The other side of it was to "tweak" the desktops for FreeBSD > > specificity. That can easily be done without changing existing packages. > > Just create new metapackages. As an example: kde-newbie. This would > > install the basic kde metapackage, and then proceed to add icons for > > FreeBSD documentation (and replace the silly Tux icons while it's at > > it). > > Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about. > > > No need to twist anyone's arms. Just go create a package and submit it. > > The package won't be installed by default, but it will be available in > > the appropriate spots, like the kde meta-category. > > Well, it's not going to be me..I already spend more time on FreeBSD > than I can count, if I had the time I would already have done it long > ago. > > Kris > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 16:45:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3B637B422; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:45:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6EB3866DF0; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:45:31 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Gilbert Gong Cc: Kris Kennaway , David Johnson , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010514164530.A46382@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010514161802.A45751@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu on Mon, May 14, 2001 at 04:37:11PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 04:37:11PM -0700, Gilbert Gong wrote: > I think I would be willing to give this a try. Sounds good. You don't even have to go all the way to making it a port/package; if you can just point some of the ports@ guys at a set of working global configuration files for whatever WM you're customizing, it may be enough. Kris --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7AG4aWry0BWjoQKURAkCcAJ9FdWSvmWmTG688Sj07iRtL8SvpYACgiQ7y 87MIeZBCMpyofOeJOV0vkrg= =tuSH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HcAYCG3uE/tztfnV-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 17:29:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7919837B424 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 17:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA425D; Mon, 14 May 2001 17:35:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3B00785B.E9067806@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:29:15 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gilbert Gong Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gilbert Gong wrote: > > I think I would be willing to give this a try. > Gilbert If you need help (for a kde-newbie metaport), let me know. I have absolutely no interest in maintaining another port, but I can certainly get you started. I know nothing of GNOME though. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 17:40:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from salesforce.com (nat-63-150-46-70.salesforce.com [63.150.46.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8978937B42C for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 17:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Received: from ggongws (ggong-ws.internal.salesforce.com [10.0.15.25]) by salesforce.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f4F0eKJ55823; Mon, 14 May 2001 17:40:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Message-ID: <002b01c0dcd7$9f04b8a0$190f000a@ggongws> From: "Gilbert Gong" To: "David Johnson" Cc: References: <3B00785B.E9067806@acuson.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:40:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for the offer. If you are familiar with kde and have some suggestions for what you think would be useful for a newbie I'd be glad to hear them. I'm looking forward to putting together a port, I haven't done it before but it should be fairly straightforward, I'm assuming. I'll probably try kde first, I have a system that I had a use for running X on for the first time in a year or so, and picked kde to try. If I can get something that makes people happy, then I'll try gnome next. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Johnson" To: "Gilbert Gong" Cc: "Kris Kennaway" ; Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 5:29 PM Subject: Re: I'm leaving > Gilbert Gong wrote: > > > > I think I would be willing to give this a try. > > Gilbert > > If you need help (for a kde-newbie metaport), let me know. I have > absolutely no interest in maintaining another port, but I can certainly > get you started. I know nothing of GNOME though. > > David > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 18: 0: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin5.bigpond.com (juicer02.bigpond.com [139.134.6.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7F037B42C; Mon, 14 May 2001 17:59:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.53]) by mailin5.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDCR0O00.4VS; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:05:12 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail0.bigpond.com (Claudes-Bizarre-MailRouter V2.9c 13/2566796); 15 May 2001 11:00:02 Message-ID: <020b01c0dcda$581e35d0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "David Johnson" , "Kris Kennaway" Cc: , References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:59:49 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From my extremely limited (and somewhat unsatisfactory) experience in attempting to coerce X into a functional state, I see the problem as more of a hardware rather than a software issue. Whilst there isn't any question that making things more straightforward software wise is a_very_good_thing, there does appear to be something lacking in the videocard detection routing. Its been suggested by some that this is is more of an XFree rather than a FreeBSD issue, and although I can see the logic in this argument I'm certain that many raw newbies would fail to understand the distinction. I'm flat out like the proverbial lizard drinking for the next week or so, but I'll have a poke around the XFree & linux docs sometime and hopefully come up with something I can kick into shape for a submission to docs > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > Jordan and others have tried many times to get people to submit good, > > newbie-friendly "default GUI environments", with close to zero > > community response. Yes, it would be a good idea, SOMEONE PLEASE DO > > THE WORK! :-) > > Getting a "default" desktop added to sysinstall would be rather like > pulling teeth. After all, it already has an item to choose a default > desktop. And if you do a standard install (which I haven't done in a > while, so it may have changed), that question is posed to the installee. > Thus, that side of the suggestion is already handled. > > The other side of it was to "tweak" the desktops for FreeBSD > specificity. That can easily be done without changing existing packages. > Just create new metapackages. As an example: kde-newbie. This would > install the basic kde metapackage, and then proceed to add icons for > FreeBSD documentation (and replace the silly Tux icons while it's at > it). > > No need to twist anyone's arms. Just go create a package and submit it. > The package won't be installed by default, but it will be available in > the appropriate spots, like the kde meta-category. > > David > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 19:27:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66E137B42C for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 19:27:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4F2RKk43118; Mon, 14 May 2001 19:27:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Doug Young" , , "Damien Champagne" Subject: RE: POP email client for darwin Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:27:20 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c0dce6$91360800$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <042b01c0dc5b$16f4cad0$0300a8c0@oracle> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think that PINE is only an IMAP client, but in any case you would probably be better off using pine and IMAP instead of a POP3 client, assuming your mail provider supports it. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Doug Young >Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 2:49 AM >To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG; Damien Champagne >Subject: Re: POP email client for darwin > > >I've been using pine to collect mail from remote POP servers for a >couple >years at least .... theres a bit minor bit of fiddling with pinerc >involved but >thats all (I think the info you need is in the pine FAQ, but if you >can't locate it >let me know and I'll send one of my pinerc files) > >> >> Is there an email client for freeBSD that allows for POP access? >I've >> been introduced to freeBSD via OSX. Years ago I used to use PINE as >> my email client, but even though I can run it in Darwin, I've >> realized it's not for POP (or is it?) The Mail application that >ships >> with OSX is lousy, and I'd like to do much more in the command-line >> environment. >> >> Also, is there anything I can do to spread freeBSD (and open-source) >> in the world? >> >> Thank You, Damien Champagne >> _______________ >> Damien Champagne >> >> Evil Genius: Slugs! He created slugs! They can't hear, they can't >> speak, they can't operate machinery. If I were creating the world, I >> wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would've >> started with lasers, eight o'clock, day one. >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message >> > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon May 14 20: 0:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin3.email.bigpond.com (juicer24.bigpond.com [139.134.6.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF42B37B424 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 20:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.54]) by mailin3.email.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDCWMB00.GK3; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:06:11 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail6.bigpond.com (Claudes-Beige-MailRouter V2.9c 11/10895988); 15 May 2001 13:01:01 Message-ID: <025701c0dceb$3f1db270$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , , "Damien Champagne" References: <000701c0dce6$91360800$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Subject: Re: POP email client for darwin Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:00:49 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There are a heap of remote mailservers I collect mail from using pine that I know definitely don't have IMAP .... the first is the local Apana Brisbane mailserver (FreeBSD 4.2) that I'm partly responsible for maintaining, then there are a number of permanently connected member gateways, most of which don't have IMAP & a couple areW2K / MDeamon systems that don't have IMAP either. Its necessary to do a wee bit of tweaking to pinerc to get this to work, but I think thats explained in a HOWTO at the pine homepage ...... its certainly not something I'd have figured out :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Doug Young" ; ; "Damien Champagne" Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: RE: POP email client for darwin > I think that PINE is only an IMAP client, but in any case you > would probably be better off using pine and IMAP instead of > a POP3 client, assuming your mail provider supports it. > > Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com > Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide > Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG > >[mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Doug Young > >Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 2:49 AM > >To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG; Damien Champagne > >Subject: Re: POP email client for darwin > > > > > >I've been using pine to collect mail from remote POP servers for a > >couple > >years at least .... theres a bit minor bit of fiddling with pinerc > >involved but > >thats all (I think the info you need is in the pine FAQ, but if you > >can't locate it > >let me know and I'll send one of my pinerc files) > > > >> > >> Is there an email client for freeBSD that allows for POP access? > >I've > >> been introduced to freeBSD via OSX. Years ago I used to use PINE as > >> my email client, but even though I can run it in Darwin, I've > >> realized it's not for POP (or is it?) The Mail application that > >ships > >> with OSX is lousy, and I'd like to do much more in the command-line > >> environment. > >> > >> Also, is there anything I can do to spread freeBSD (and open-source) > >> in the world? > >> > >> Thank You, Damien Champagne > >> _______________ > >> Damien Champagne > >> > >> Evil Genius: Slugs! He created slugs! They can't hear, they can't > >> speak, they can't operate machinery. If I were creating the world, I > >> wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would've > >> started with lasers, eight o'clock, day one. > >> > >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > >> > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 1:12:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E0837B422; Tue, 15 May 2001 01:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (pool0356.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.193.101]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA00533; Tue, 15 May 2001 04:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B00E4F6.10DC397D@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 01:12:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Johnson Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Johnson wrote: > Getting a "default" desktop added to sysinstall would be > rather like pulling teeth. After all, it already has an > item to choose a default desktop. And if you do a standard > install (which I haven't done in a while, so it may have > changed), that question is posed to the installee. > Thus, that side of the suggestion is already handled. > > The other side of it was to "tweak" the desktops for FreeBSD > specificity. That can easily be done without changing > existing packages. Just create new metapackages. As an > example: kde-newbie. This would install the basic kde > metapackage, and then proceed to add icons for FreeBSD > documentation (and replace the silly Tux icons while it's at > it). This is really insufficient, I think. Unfortunately, you can't replace the entire install process and cut your own CDROMs, and still call it FreeBSD, according to the trademark holders. Something about guaranteeing a consistent (-ly bad?) user experience. For a large number of users, it doesn't matter which graphical environment you pick to install by default, so long as you pick one and do it. Having to grovel in the bowels of the packaging system is a non-starter: if I have to go through all the partitioning and other crap, or I boot to a non-graphical login, well, you've already lost me, if I'm Joe Average User... It is no wonder no one ever rises to the "well make a package for it" challenge: it has very little value that translates into anything good for the user. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 6: 2:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C1437B43C; Tue, 15 May 2001 06:02:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4FCcqX35486; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:38:52 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:38:52 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: stable@Freebsd.org, newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Recent FAQ changes Message-ID: <20010515133852.F72224@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GV0iVqYguTV4Q9ER" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --GV0iVqYguTV4Q9ER Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FreeBSD FAQ Updates The following changes have been made to the FreeBSD FAQ since 2001-5-8: Added questions: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D BIND (named) is listening on port 53 and some other high-numbered port.= =20 Has my host been compromised? http://www.FreeBSD.org/FAQ/book.html#EXTRA-NAMED-PORT This is a weekly service. Updates will be posted to the FreeBSD -questio= ns, -stable, and -newbie mailing lists sometime every Monday. As always, you can read the complete FAQ at http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/ --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --GV0iVqYguTV4Q9ER Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjsBI1oACgkQk6gHZCw343UCgQCfX37VwF6J1CTT+GuDiRhtP0VJ +JUAn01tn5nvcMuXy4sD4bYgYzziCER7 =57Tk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GV0iVqYguTV4Q9ER-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 6:25:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from abiz.noc.adelphia.net (abiz.noc.adelphia.net [64.8.16.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF9237B422 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 06:25:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lenroy@lbr.org) Received: from lenroy.home.net ([216.248.7.122]) by abiz.noc.adelphia.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA22210 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Lenroy Reply-To: lenroy@lbr.org To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org Subject: Running Netscape under linux emulation Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:25:55 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01051509255500.02733@lenroy.home.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have read the man pages that say its not truely and emulation, ok. I have also checked ot see that the kld is loaded and it is. How do I get NETSCAPE up ? lost and confused but not done :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 9:56:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F7437B424 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:56:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p184.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.184]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA1006938; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:56:26 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00303; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:17:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:17:22 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: Doug Young Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, Damien Champagne Subject: Re: POP email client for darwin/Pine. In-Reply-To: <025701c0dceb$3f1db270$0300a8c0@oracle> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I think that PINE is only an IMAP client, but in any case you > > would probably be better off using pine and IMAP instead of > > a POP3 client, assuming your mail provider supports it. > > > > Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com > > Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide > > Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com Pine is also capable of POP !! But it is neither in the man page nor in other docs. Ask google about it. But if you combine it with fetchmail, you dont care. H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 11:11:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61C537B424; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:11:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19377; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:09:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA1CaGGL; Tue May 15 11:09:22 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28441; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:12:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105151812.LAA28441@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving To: dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au (Doug Young) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:12:07 +0000 (GMT) Cc: djohnson@acuson.com (David Johnson), kris@obsecurity.org (Kris Kennaway), freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <020b01c0dcda$581e35d0$0300a8c0@oracle> from "Doug Young" at May 15, 2001 10:59:49 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From my extremely limited (and somewhat unsatisfactory) experience > in> attempting to coerce X into a functional state, I see the problem > as more of a hardware rather than a software issue. Whilst there > isn't any question that making things more straightforward software > wise is a_very_good_thing, there does appear to be something > lacking in the videocard detection routing. Its been suggested by > some that this is is more of an XFree rather than a FreeBSD issue, > and although I can see the logic in this argument I'm certain that > many raw newbies would fail to understand the distinction. This is a FreeBSD issue. If FreeBSD were to go to GGI and KGI (most of the drivers and all of the interesting code is under the X license), then video modes for all supported cards, and INT 10 BIOS modes up through VESA2 would "just work". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 11:13: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.118.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C018837B422 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:13:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff.concentric.net [206.173.118.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.9.1a/(98/12/15 5.12)) id OAA11182; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:13:03 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from ts004d09.mer-id.concentric.net (ts004d09.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.165]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id OAA23721; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:10:55 -0600 (MDT) From: ML Duke To: Lenroy Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Running Netscape under linux emulation In-Reply-To: <01051509255500.02733@lenroy.home.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 May 2001, Lenroy wrote: > I have read the man pages that say its not truely and emulation, ok. I > have also checked ot see that the kld is loaded and it is. How do I get > NETSCAPE up ? In x windows, type "netscape". ML Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 11:33:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B0C37B424; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:33:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA741B; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:39:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3B01767A.1C24A9D7@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:33:30 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> <3B00E4F6.10DC397D@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > This is really insufficient, I think. Okay, you pushed by hot button... If you desire a default GUI desktop preconfigured for newbies, to be standard on each and every install, then you have to start somewhere. In the mean time, it may be prudent to consider that some folks don't want a standard default desktop, let alone one preconfigured for newbies. > Unfortunately, you can't replace the entire install > process and cut your own CDROMs, and still call it > FreeBSD, according to the trademark holders. No one (I think) was suggesting anything like this. The closest suggestions were to improve what was already there. Using a port is still operating within "the system". No one needs to burn their own newbie-CDs. Going up to the core team and saying "we want you to change x, y and z, is doomed to failure. However, getting a port committed is easy. Then you can go up to the core team and say "we want you to change just x because y and z are already on the CD". Presumably "x" would be another option in the "choose desktop" menu. > Having to grovel in the bowels of the packaging system > is a non-starter: if I have to go through all the > partitioning and other crap, or I boot to a non-graphical > login, well, you've already lost me, if I'm Joe Average > User... Joe Average doesn't have to do any of that crap for Windows, because his computer manufacturer has done it for him already. His idea of "installation" is handing his credit card over to the cashier. FreeBSD is already *easier* to install than Windows. It only seems harder because it doesn't come preinstalled with your new machine. Speaking of partitioning, compare the FreeBSD fdisk to the Windows fdisk... And there have been many times when I wished Windows had a non-graphical login. Like those times that Windows won't boot up because the video isn't configured right, and I can't configure the video right because I can't boot up Windows... The biggest attraction of FreeBSD and other unices is the control the user has over the system. Much of this control comes through choice. If you eliminate this choice you destroy the control, and FreeBSD loses it's attraction. If KDE is to be the mandatory desktop, then the GNOME user has to go through the completely pointless process of uninstalling KDE (if it's even possible) or keeping it around just to take up space. And vice versa. And why should those wanting a firewall have to endure KDE/GNOME/QT/GTK/X11? It is sufficient for sysinstall to ask me if I want X11, and then if I answer 'yes' to ask me what desktop/wm I want. This is how the process currently works. The original posting on this subject (at least how I interpreted it) was: 1) make a non-mandatory default desktop if no other desktop was chosen, and 2) add icons and menu items to the desktop packages that point to the FreeBSD documentation. The first is a decision to be made by the core team. The second can be done by anyone by submitting a port. In fact, now that I think about it, you could call this port "freebsd-desktop", and it would add FreeBSD specific icons and menu items to any installed desktop that it detects. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 12:25: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from web11705.mail.yahoo.com (web11705.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4164537B43C for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:24:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tperlin@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010515192449.181.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.200.148.220] by web11705.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:24:49 PDT Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:24:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Erlin Subject: Re: I'm leaving To: David Johnson , tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B01767A.1C24A9D7@acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org All of this conversation seems to center on the fact/assumption that there is/can be only one distribution of FreeBSD. I would think that if the target market were Joe Average, a 'Consumer' version might be offered. It could include things like suggested defaults for the most basic functionality, installation with pretty pictures, etc. I've never gotten the sense (after maybe 6 months of actually using FreeBSD) that anybody wanted FreeBSD on my parent's PC. I haven't been reading the advocacy list, so maybe I missed it, but I certainly didn't install FreeBSD because I thought it would make a great workstation. Of course, the guy who started this thread wasn't looking to replace his NT workstations either, if I recall... --Tim --- David Johnson wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > This is really insufficient, I think. > > Okay, you pushed by hot button... > > If you desire a default GUI desktop preconfigured > for newbies, to be > standard on each and every install, then you have to > start somewhere. In > the mean time, it may be prudent to consider that > some folks don't want > a standard default desktop, let alone one > preconfigured for newbies. > > > Unfortunately, you can't replace the entire > install > > process and cut your own CDROMs, and still call it > > FreeBSD, according to the trademark holders. > > No one (I think) was suggesting anything like this. > The closest > suggestions were to improve what was already there. > Using a port is > still operating within "the system". No one needs to > burn their own > newbie-CDs. > > Going up to the core team and saying "we want you to > change x, y and z, > is doomed to failure. However, getting a port > committed is easy. Then > you can go up to the core team and say "we want you > to change just x > because y and z are already on the CD". Presumably > "x" would be another > option in the "choose desktop" menu. > > > Having to grovel in the bowels of the packaging > system > > is a non-starter: if I have to go through all the > > partitioning and other crap, or I boot to a > non-graphical > > login, well, you've already lost me, if I'm Joe > Average > > User... > > Joe Average doesn't have to do any of that crap for > Windows, because his > computer manufacturer has done it for him already. > His idea of > "installation" is handing his credit card over to > the cashier. FreeBSD > is already *easier* to install than Windows. It only > seems harder > because it doesn't come preinstalled with your new > machine. > > Speaking of partitioning, compare the FreeBSD fdisk > to the Windows > fdisk... > > And there have been many times when I wished Windows > had a non-graphical > login. Like those times that Windows won't boot up > because the video > isn't configured right, and I can't configure the > video right because I > can't boot up Windows... > > The biggest attraction of FreeBSD and other unices > is the control the > user has over the system. Much of this control comes > through choice. If > you eliminate this choice you destroy the control, > and FreeBSD loses > it's attraction. If KDE is to be the mandatory > desktop, then the GNOME > user has to go through the completely pointless > process of uninstalling > KDE (if it's even possible) or keeping it around > just to take up space. > And vice versa. And why should those wanting a > firewall have to endure > KDE/GNOME/QT/GTK/X11? > > It is sufficient for sysinstall to ask me if I want > X11, and then if I > answer 'yes' to ask me what desktop/wm I want. This > is how the process > currently works. The original posting on this > subject (at least how I > interpreted it) was: 1) make a non-mandatory default > desktop if no other > desktop was chosen, and 2) add icons and menu items > to the desktop > packages that point to the FreeBSD documentation. > The first is a > decision to be made by the core team. The second can > be done by anyone > by submitting a port. > > In fact, now that I think about it, you could call > this port > "freebsd-desktop", and it would add FreeBSD specific > icons and menu > items to any installed desktop that it detects. > > David > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of > the message __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 15:27:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin9.bigpond.com (juicer34.bigpond.com [139.134.6.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB4237B424; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:27:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.58]) by mailin9.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDEEM400.AEY; Wed, 16 May 2001 08:32:28 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail1.bigpond.com (Claudes-Assertive-MailRouter V2.9c 1/4729612); 16 May 2001 08:27:37 Message-ID: <04ed01c0dd8e$2c57f3f0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Tim Erlin" , "David Johnson" , Cc: , References: <20010515192449.181.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:27:05 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I've never gotten the sense (after maybe 6 months of > actually using FreeBSD) that anybody wanted FreeBSD on > my parent's PC. I haven't been reading the advocacy > list, so maybe I missed it, but I certainly didn't > install FreeBSD because I thought it would make a > great workstation. > > To be even halfway practical as a workstation for many people a workable Win9x emulator would be essential ... last time I looked, none of them was past pre-alpha quality. Has anything changed recently ?? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 15:31:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin2.email.bigpond.com (juicer14.bigpond.com [139.134.6.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F02837B423; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:31:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.58]) by mailin2.email.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDEETW00.0QT; Wed, 16 May 2001 08:37:08 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail1.bigpond.com (Claudes-Caring-MailRouter V2.9c 1/4731019); 16 May 2001 08:32:17 Message-ID: <04fd01c0dd8e$d361a420$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "David Johnson" , "Kris Kennaway" , , References: <200105151812.LAA28441@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:31:45 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is a FreeBSD issue. > > If FreeBSD were to go to GGI and KGI (most of the drivers and all > of the interesting code is under the X license), then video modes > for all supported cards, and INT 10 BIOS modes up through VESA2 > would "just work". > You've lost me there ..... WTF are "GGI" & "KGI" ?? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 15:39:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin3.email.bigpond.com (unknown [139.134.6.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D654537B43C for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:39:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.58]) by mailin3.email.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDEF4900.36Q; Wed, 16 May 2001 08:43:21 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail1.bigpond.com (Claudes-Magnifico-MailRouter V2.9c 1/4732921); 16 May 2001 08:38:30 Message-ID: <050e01c0dd8f$b1c82680$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Heiko Recktenwald" Cc: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , , "Damien Champagne" References: Subject: Re: POP email client for darwin/Pine. Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:37:58 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Pine is also capable of POP !! But it is neither in the man page > nor in other docs. Ask google about it. Hmmm ..... well where did I find the info about making it work with POP3 ?? .... actually its just a matter of editing the inbox line in pinerc to read "inbox-path={}inbox" I wouldn't have invented that myself so presumably I discovered it somewhere and I'd swear it was in the official pine FAQ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 19:57:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp5ve.mailsrvcs.net (smtp5vepub.gte.net [206.46.170.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD3E37B422 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:57:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from damienchampagne@yahoo.com) Received: from Admin (adsl-64-222-16-155.provri.adsl.bellatlantic.net [64.222.16.155]) by smtp5ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA6173861 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 03:02:13 GMT Message-ID: <003901c0ddb3$ea96a6c0$6401a8c0@Admin> From: "Damien" To: References: <050e01c0dd8f$b1c82680$0300a8c0@oracle> Subject: Re: POP email client for darwin/Pine. Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:53:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank you all for your help! Yes, I was indeed successful in retrieving my POP3 accounts through PINE. Doug Young is correct: >actually its just a matter of editing the inbox line in pinerc >to read "inbox-path={}inbox" This can also be changed from within PINE itself in the (S)etup (C)onfig screen. However, I can't seem to set up the fcc settings correctly. It appears that PINE is trying to create the fcc folder on the POP server itself, not locally. I'm not sure why though, I've got everything set like it says in the FAQ and the fcc man. Is this sort of an IMAP behahvior? I'm getting an fcc creation error. Any suggestions? >As an aside...I don't really have anything against IMAP, but I travel a lot and it's just easiest to use POP accounts with a web interface at a public kiosk rather than pay outrageous long distance fees to fetch IMAP for my laptop or Palm...but I really dig PINE and would love to keep it on my desktop system.< To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue May 15 19:57:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp5ve.mailsrvcs.net (smtp5vepub.gte.net [206.46.170.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0054937B423 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:57:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from damienchampagne@yahoo.com) Received: from Admin (adsl-64-222-16-155.provri.adsl.bellatlantic.net [64.222.16.155]) by smtp5ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA5932499; Wed, 16 May 2001 03:02:14 GMT Message-ID: <003a01c0ddb3$ebb78010$6401a8c0@Admin> From: "Damien Champagne" To: "Doug Young" , "Heiko Recktenwald" Cc: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , References: <050e01c0dd8f$b1c82680$0300a8c0@oracle> Subject: Re: POP email client for darwin/Pine. Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:57:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank you all for your help! Yes, I was indeed successful in retrieving my POP3 accounts through PINE. Doug Young is correct: >actually its just a matter of editing the inbox line in pinerc >to read "inbox-path={}inbox" This can also be changed from within PINE itself in the (S)etup (C)onfig screen. However, I can't seem to set up the fcc settings correctly. It appears that PINE is trying to create the fcc folder on the POP server itself, not locally. I'm not sure why though, I've got everything set like it says in the FAQ and the fcc man. Is this sort of an IMAP behahvior? I'm getting an fcc creation error. Any suggestions? -- dc >As an aside...I don't really have anything against IMAP, but I travel a lot and it's just easiest to use POP accounts with a web interface at a public kiosk rather than pay outrageous long distance fees to fetch IMAP for my laptop or Palm...but I really dig PINE and would love to keep it on my desktop system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 1:53:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4173A37B422; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:52:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (pool0141.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.164.141]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA16994; Wed, 16 May 2001 04:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B023FFC.A1EC1F0C@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 01:53:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Johnson Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> <3B00E4F6.10DC397D@mindspring.com> <3B01767A.1C24A9D7@acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Johnson wrote: > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > This is really insufficient, I think. > > Okay, you pushed by hot button... > > If you desire a default GUI desktop preconfigured for newbies, > to be standard on each and every install, then you have to > start somewhere. In the mean time, it may be prudent to consider > that some folks don't want a standard default desktop, let alone > one preconfigured for newbies. Yeah; we already have those weenies in our market segment; we don't need to care about capturing them, we need to capture the people we _don't_ have. > > Unfortunately, you can't replace the entire install > > process and cut your own CDROMs, and still call it > > FreeBSD, according to the trademark holders. > > No one (I think) was suggesting anything like this. The > closest suggestions were to improve what was already there. I _am_ suggesting that... other people have suggested it in the past. > Using a port is still operating within "the system". No one > needs to burn their own newbie-CDs. Operating "within the system" is not useful to those users we are interested in capturing. > > Having to grovel in the bowels of the packaging system > > is a non-starter: if I have to go through all the > > partitioning and other crap, or I boot to a non-graphical > > login, well, you've already lost me, if I'm Joe Average > > User... > > Joe Average doesn't have to do any of that crap for Windows, > because his computer manufacturer has done it for him already. Exactly. > His idea of "installation" is handing his credit card over > to the cashier. FreeBSD is already *easier* to install than > Windows. It only seems harder because it doesn't come > preinstalled with your new machine. Again, exactly. Preinstallation is the competition; therefore it must be as easy to install FreeBSD as it is to use a Windows "recovery CD". > Speaking of partitioning, compare the FreeBSD fdisk to the > Windows fdisk... The Windows one is graphical, and makes it practically impossible to trash Windows itself. Otherwise, we should be talking "Partition Magic"... which comes with the FreeBSD package sold by Walnut Creek these days, BTW. And yet it still runs only under Windows. > And there have been many times when I wished Windows had > a non-graphical login. You mean like holding down the function key during boot, and booting to a command shell? It works fine. > Like those times that Windows won't boot up because the > video isn't configured right, and I can't configure the > video right because I can't boot up Windows... Strawman. Windows will not set new settings unless they are confirmed by the user, and if the user can't read them because they are bad, they can't confirm them without really working at it (since the default is "Cancel". Even if they do manage to confirm a bad video setup (by hitting "Shift-Tab" folowedby "Enter"), they can boot into standard VGS mode once again at the boot prompt by holding down the function key, and selecting that option from the resulting menu. Compare that to XFree86 setup in FreeBSD... what are the "modelines" for _your_ monitor? > The biggest attraction of FreeBSD and other unices is the > control the user has over the system. Much of this control > comes through choice. If you eliminate this choice you > destroy the control, and FreeBSD loses it's attraction. If > KDE is to be the mandatory desktop, then the GNOME user > has to go through the completely pointless process of > uninstalling KDE (if it's even possible) or keeping it > around just to take up space. And vice versa. And why > should those wanting a firewall have to endure > KDE/GNOME/QT/GTK/X11? > > It is sufficient for sysinstall to ask me if I want X11, and > then if I answer 'yes' to ask me what desktop/wm I want. First of all, it's obvious that you haven't installed any Windows software in a while, if that's your impression of it; Windows applications will generally give you a choice of "Default", "Full", and "Custom". If FreeBSD did the same, you might well get KDE and a graphical login, after selecting "Default". This would not take the control away from you to select "Custom" instead: it would merely make the average user experience better, and make you select one more menu item out of the many dozens you will traverse, out of love of control, or would traverse anyway, without being given that option. > This is how the process currently works. No, it doesn't. X11 is a pain in the keister, and is in there as a "distribution" instead of a "package". To make things even worse, that distribution is _not_ built when you "make release" to build your own CDROM image: it is very, very hard to start with the sources, and end up with exactly what's on a Walnut Creek CDROM release. Since this thread is cross-posted to -advocacy, I hope you won't "gloss over" the points people have made recently about the robusness of the project and the distribution issues that sparked, among other things, this thread. > The original posting on this subject (at least how I > interpreted it) was: 1) make a non-mandatory default > desktop if no other desktop was chosen, and 2) add icons > and menu items to the desktop packages that point to the > FreeBSD documentation. The first is a decision to be made > by the core team. The second can be done by anyone by > submitting a port. See the "Subject:" line; the original posting was by someone who was giving up on FreeBSD because it was too difficult for a new user to comfortably install, and feel that they were doing the right things and picking the right options. > In fact, now that I think about it, you could call this > port "freebsd-desktop", and it would add FreeBSD specific > icons and menu items to any installed desktop that it > detects. I think that the target audience for such a port is _precisely_ the group of people you would see _never_ using it, because they couldn't find the thing, and because FreeBSD's installation system is rather an overwhelming quagmire, for a new user. It would be exactly like throwing a party for all the people you know, and only sending out the invitations in Turkish (or Japanese, if you happen to be in Turkey); no one would be able to show up, even if it was the best party ever. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 1:57:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 329A837B423; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (pool0141.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.164.141]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA29471; Wed, 16 May 2001 04:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B024101.B2E7E6C@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 01:57:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Young Cc: Terry Lambert , David Johnson , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <200105151812.LAA28441@usr08.primenet.com> <04fd01c0dd8e$d361a420$0300a8c0@oracle> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Young wrote: > > > This is a FreeBSD issue. > > > > If FreeBSD were to go to GGI and KGI (most of the drivers and all > > of the interesting code is under the X license), then video modes > > for all supported cards, and INT 10 BIOS modes up through VESA2 > > would "just work". > > > > You've lost me there ..... WTF are "GGI" & "KGI" ?? "Generic Graphics Interface" and "Kernel Graphics Interface". Video drivers that probe and recognize the hardware. They also have a default VGA, Super-VGA, and VESA driver, in addition to an X server that will run on top of their API. It was discussed at length for 396BSD and later FreeBSD back in 1993, and then implemented by the Linux crowd, but released under the X license to ensure that BSD could adopt it if they wanted. Use "GGI" and "KGI" as search terms in a search engine, and you will find it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 2: 8: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin10.bigpond.com (juicer35.bigpond.com [139.134.6.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A1537B423; Wed, 16 May 2001 02:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.52]) by mailin10.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDF8A300.515; Wed, 16 May 2001 19:13:15 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail5.bigpond.com (Claudes-Eclectic-MailRouter V2.9c 9/11428309); 16 May 2001 19:08:19 Message-ID: <079301c0dde7$b05f18a0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: Cc: "Terry Lambert" , "David Johnson" , "Kris Kennaway" , , References: <200105151812.LAA28441@usr08.primenet.com> <04fd01c0dd8e$d361a420$0300a8c0@oracle> <3B024101.B2E7E6C@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 19:07:50 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Use "GGI" and "KGI" as search terms in a search engine, > and you will find it. > Yeah I found what looks to be the homepage .... Its not exactly the most descriptive site I've ever seen but I guess they have the common "lack of anyone to do stuff" problem. In a nutshell .... is GGI / KGI intended to replace XFree ?? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 7: 4:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from bryden.apana.org.au (bryden.apana.org.au [203.3.126.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4622837B423; Wed, 16 May 2001 07:04:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@bryden.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([192.168.0.3]) by bryden.apana.org.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA64141; Thu, 17 May 2001 00:03:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from dougy@bryden.apana.org.au) Message-ID: <085c01c0de11$1c0e8da0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: Cc: "Nik Clayton" Subject: Updated Pedantic FreeBSD now online Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 00:04:22 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The latest version of the "Pedantic FreeBSD" is now online at http://brisbane.apana.org.au/~freebsd/ The 4.3 ISO & the complete site in a zipfile (tutoial.zip) won't be available for a while as they are being transferred over a fairly slow link, however there is a zipfile "html.zip" available there that includes all the html pages but not the jpgs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 8:39:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from wilma.widomaker.com (wilma.widomaker.com [204.17.220.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E4437B423; Wed, 16 May 2001 08:39:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shannon@daydream.shannon.net) Received: from [209.96.179.165] (helo=escape.shannon.net) by wilma.widomaker.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 1503OP-000K5T-00; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:39:18 -0400 Received: from daydream (mail@daydream.shannon.net [192.168.1.10]) by escape.shannon.net (8.11.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id f4GFU2q12154; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shannon by daydream with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1503FX-0004KF-00; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:30:07 -0400 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:30:07 -0400 From: Shannon Hendrix To: David Johnson Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm leaving Message-ID: <20010516113005.A16585@widomaker.com> Mail-Followup-To: David Johnson , tlambert2@mindspring.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> <3B00E4F6.10DC397D@mindspring.com> <3B01767A.1C24A9D7@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B01767A.1C24A9D7@acuson.com>; from djohnson@acuson.com on Tue, May 15, 2001 at 11:33:30AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 11:33:30AM -0700, David Johnson wrote: > Joe Average doesn't have to do any of that crap for Windows, because his > computer manufacturer has done it for him already. His idea of _Sometimes_ that is true. But even if he has to install Windows, it does everything for you. Yeah, it does all kinds of things you probably don't want, but that's not the point, and would only be one of many failings of MessOS from Micros~1. > "installation" is handing his credit card over to the cashier. FreeBSD > is already *easier* to install than Windows. It only seems harder > because it doesn't come preinstalled with your new machine. That's a matter of opinion of course. Windows installs on my system are basically: insert CD, wait, reboot and install Gran Prix Legends. Now, getting Windows trimmed of all the useless subprocesses and other crap that slow the machine to a crawl... *THAT* is difficult, no doubt about it. But we're just talking about the install here, not stupidity-removal. > Speaking of partitioning, compare the FreeBSD fdisk to the Windows > fdisk... The user installing Windows never has to see fdisk at all. Of course, I hate that because I don't like one-huge drive installs. In this area, there is little sense in comparing FreeBSD to Windows. > And there have been many times when I wished Windows had a non-graphical > login. Like those times that Windows won't boot up because the video > isn't configured right, and I can't configure the video right because I > can't boot up Windows... Hold F8 when booting. Then you get either a command line or a safe-mode GUI where you can fix your problem. It's pretty trivial... :) But I know what you mean. Another thing I hate to see in UNIX installation and configuration software is not also providing a command-line alternative. Another problem is that wrapper-type programs are often a license to create incredibly obtuse and syntactially stupid configuration files that are difficult to edit. > The biggest attraction of FreeBSD and other unices is the control the > user has over the system. Much of this control comes through choice. If > you eliminate this choice you destroy the control, and FreeBSD loses > it's attraction. If KDE is to be the mandatory desktop, then the GNOME [snip] I don't think anyone is suggesting a mandatory desktop. You can use KDE or Gnome software to do the install without making it the desktop default. If someone _was_ saying this should be mandatatory, then no, that's not a good idea. Most Linux systems let you pick which desktop you want. It's just a little slicker than FreeBSD, which also does much the same thing. I think just creating some good packages would be the right first step. Wrapping it up in an easier installer will likely require those kinds of packages anyway, so why not do that first? -- "We have nothing to prove" -- Alan Dawkins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 9:21:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from t1-outside.immunex.com (t1.immunex.com [198.178.217.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B67D37B423 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from GoodleafJ@immunex.com) Received: from kosmo.immunex.com by t1-outside.immunex.com via smtpd (for hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) with SMTP; 16 May 2001 16:21:17 UT Received: from erin.immunex.com ([198.178.220.175]) by kosmo.immunex.com (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.4) with ESMTP id 2001051609211548:32129 ; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:21:15 -0700 Subject: mounting windows shares at boot To: newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 March 21, 2000 Message-ID: From: GoodleafJ@immunex.com Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:21:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Erin/Immunex(Release 5.0.4a |July 24, 2000) at 05/16/2001 09:21:15 AM, Itemize by SMTP Server on Kosmo/Immunex(Release 5.0.4 |June 8, 2000) at 05/16/2001 09:21:15 AM, Serialize by Router on Kosmo/Immunex(Release 5.0.4 |June 8, 2000) at 05/16/2001 09:21:16 AM, Serialize complete at 05/16/2001 09:21:16 AM Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Have been roaming the web looking for tutorials. Most of the Samba tutorials seem oriented toward using a UNIX machine to serve files, but I need to get a FBSD machine to mount a SMB share from a windows machine at boot. You see I have a perl script that does some processing on files and I'd like to have it copy the results to a particular directory on a Windows machine. I think I could do this if I could mount the drive at boot (using fstab?). I know the basic system works, since I can mount the share using smbclient, but I need more automation than that... Can anyone point me toward a FAQ or how to? Or suggest how to do it? Thanks, John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 9:35: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from t1-outside.immunex.com (t1.immunex.com [198.178.217.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 85DD037B50E for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:34:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from GoodleafJ@immunex.com) Received: from kosmo.immunex.com by t1-outside.immunex.com via smtpd (for hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) with SMTP; 16 May 2001 16:34:55 UT Received: from erin.immunex.com ([198.178.220.175]) by kosmo.immunex.com (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.4) with ESMTP id 2001051609345392:32328 ; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:34:53 -0700 Subject: Re:mounting windows shares at boot To: Peter Cc: newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 March 21, 2000 Message-ID: From: GoodleafJ@immunex.com Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:34:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Erin/Immunex(Release 5.0.4a |July 24, 2000) at 05/16/2001 09:34:54 AM, Itemize by SMTP Server on Kosmo/Immunex(Release 5.0.4 |June 8, 2000) at 05/16/2001 09:34:54 AM, Serialize by Router on Kosmo/Immunex(Release 5.0.4 |June 8, 2000) at 05/16/2001 09:34:55 AM, Serialize complete at 05/16/2001 09:34:55 AM Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks. Although I had searched the ports tree, I used the search term "samba." It seems ridiculous in retrospect that I didn't search under "smb." Go figure. Will try it out. -John Peter cc: Subject: Re:mounting windows shares at boot 05/16/01 09:30 AM smbfs -- Look into that -- then you can use fstab to mount windows it's in the /usr/ports On 05/16/2001 10:21:14 AM, GoodleafJ@immunex.com is quoted as saying: . . . .|Have been roaming the web looking for tutorials. Most of the Samba . . . .|tutorials seem oriented toward using a UNIX machine to serve files, but I . . . .|need to get a FBSD machine to mount a SMB share from a windows machine at . . . .|boot. You see I have a perl script that does some processing on files and . . . .|I'd like to have it copy the results to a particular directory on a Windows . . . .|machine. I think I could do this if I could mount the drive at boot (using . . . .|fstab?). I know the basic system works, since I can mount the share using . . . .|smbclient, but I need more automation than that... . . . .| . . . .|Can anyone point me toward a FAQ or how to? Or suggest how to do it? . . . .| . . . .|Thanks, . . . .|John . . . .| . . . .| . . . .|To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org . . . .|with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 10:38: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from web4302.mail.yahoo.com (web4302.mail.yahoo.com [216.115.104.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7198037B424 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michael_deroche@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010516173806.25847.qmail@web4302.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.133.22.89] by web4302.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:38:06 EDT Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:38:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael de Roche Subject: Re: I'm Leaving To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now for my 2 cents .... As it stands now, installation is pretty straight forward and easy .... I have never had a problem installing!!!! Why do you need a graphical install ... I like FreeBSD (and OpenBSD and Debian Linux) because I did not have to go thru a graphical install (many of which I found lacking in configurabilty and choices) .... Sorry if I sound like some sort of Troll.... ===== michael_deroche@yahoo.com Extreme situations demand extreme solutions. _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 12:16:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.118.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE5E37B422; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi.concentric.net [206.173.118.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.9.1a/(98/12/15 5.12)) id PAA01385; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:16:18 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mlduke (ts002d48.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.108]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id PAA10602; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <007001c0de34$02941a20$6cb8adce@mlduke> From: "ML Duke" To: , "David Johnson" Cc: , Subject: Re: I'm leaving Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:10:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For those who want a windows(crash) install or a windows(crash) like install -- I'd simply suggest they go use windows. If this thread started because someone "left" FBSD because they didn't like the install, which is what it sounds like, then that person is now where they need to be. What's all the noise about? ML Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 14: 2:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe18.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.236.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6564137B423 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:02:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fluidlord@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:02:18 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [63.204.84.235] From: "Matthew Murphy" To: Subject: Installing Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:06:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0DE11.66222D20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 May 2001 21:02:18.0312 (UTC) FILETIME=[7DEF4480:01C0DE4B] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0DE11.66222D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I got freebsd installed, I reboot and it ask me for login, so i put = root, asdk me for password and i leave it blank and it tells me = incorrect login? Can anyone help me? Matthew ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0DE11.66222D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I got freebsd installed, I reboot and = it ask me for=20 login, so i put root, asdk me for password and i leave it blank and it = tells me=20 incorrect login?
 
Can anyone help me?
 
Matthew
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C0DE11.66222D20-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 14:18:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail01.sfo.allbusiness.com (gateway.allbusiness.com [208.184.194.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4DD37B422 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:18:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blau@allbusiness.com) content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0DE4D.B5BF77EB" Subject: RE: Installing X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4417.0 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:18:10 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Installing Thread-Index: AcDeS4CEekgjBmiiR66ke+iHg7awtwAAgBrg From: "Brian Lau" To: "Matthew Murphy" Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DE4D.B5BF77EB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable boot into single user mode by hitting any key other than enter at the count down screen then type boot -s. type passwd to change root password than type exit to boot into normal mode. -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Murphy [mailto:fluidlord@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 2:06 PM To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Installing I got freebsd installed, I reboot and it ask me for login, so i put root, asdk me for password and i leave it blank and it tells me incorrect login? =20 Can anyone help me? =20 Matthew ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DE4D.B5BF77EB Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
boot into single user mode by hitting any key other than = enter at=20 the count down screen then type boot -s. =20 type passwd to change root password than type exit to boot into normal=20 mode.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Murphy=20 [mailto:fluidlord@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 = 2:06=20 PM
To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:=20 Installing

I got freebsd installed, I reboot and = it ask me=20 for login, so i put root, asdk me for password and i leave it blank = and it=20 tells me incorrect login?
 
Can anyone help me?
 
Matthew
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DE4D.B5BF77EB-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 15:16:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin5.bigpond.com (juicer02.bigpond.com [139.134.6.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1F5137B423 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:16:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.58]) by mailin5.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDG8SG00.181; Thu, 17 May 2001 08:21:52 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail1.bigpond.com (Claudes-Predictive-MailRouter V2.9c 1/5158989); 17 May 2001 08:16:13 Message-ID: <08ba01c0de55$db75c9d0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Brian Lau" , "Matthew Murphy" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Installing Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 08:16:25 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08B7_01C0DEA9.AA5FFAB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_08B7_01C0DEA9.AA5FFAB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The experts will not be pleased !!! ..... I can just see someone yelling = "technical questions should be asked in "questions" :) (assuming that = this constitutes a "technical question") boot into single user mode by hitting any key other than enter at the = count down screen then type boot -s. type passwd to change root = password than type exit to boot into normal mode I've noticed a number of messages like this over recent months & = wondered how anyone could get into that situation. It appears that they = have somehow got past the dialog box that pops up during install asking = for root password ... something I would have thought impossible. Since = Matthew has managed to achieve this, maybe he could enlighten me on = exactly how he did it ?? If in fact its possible to just [enter] [enter] past the "you must now = provide the root user password" dialog that would explain I guess its = possible to do that in W2K Pro, but not in any other operating system = that I've ever used. -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Murphy [mailto:fluidlord@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 2:06 PM To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Installing I got freebsd installed, I reboot and it ask me for login, so i put = root, asdk me for password and i leave it blank and it tells me = incorrect login? Can anyone help me? Matthew ------=_NextPart_000_08B7_01C0DEA9.AA5FFAB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The experts=20 will not be pleased !!! ..... I can just see someone yelling "technical=20 questions should be asked in "questions" :)  (assuming that this=20 constitutes a "technical question")
 
boot into single user mode by hitting any key other than = enter at=20 the count down screen then type boot -s. =20 type passwd to change root password than type exit to boot into normal=20 mode
 
I've noticed a number of messages like this = over recent=20 months & wondered how anyone could get into that situation.  It = appears=20 that they have somehow got past the dialog box that pops up during = install=20 asking for root password ... something I would have thought=20 impossible. Since Matthew has managed to achieve this, maybe = he could=20 enlighten me on exactly how he did it = ??
 
If in fact its possible to just [enter] = [enter] past=20 the "you must now provide the root user password" dialog that would = explain I=20 guess its possible to do that in W2K Pro, but not in any other operating = system=20 that I've ever used.
 
-----Original Message-----

From: Matthew=20 Murphy [mailto:fluidlord@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May = 16,=20 2001 2:06 PM
To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:=20 Installing
I got freebsd installed, I reboot = and it ask me=20 for login, so i put root, asdk me for password and i leave it blank = and it=20 tells me incorrect login?
 
Can anyone help me?
 
Matthew
------=_NextPart_000_08B7_01C0DEA9.AA5FFAB0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 15:19:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp018.mail.yahoo.com (smtp018.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3854337B422 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:19:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsdq@yahoo.com) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 May 2001 22:19:44 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 16:23:17 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au, "" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Installing Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think it asks you for a password when root first logs in -- at least that is how I remember it when doing 4.2-R install. On 05/16/2001 4:16:25 PM, "Doug Young" is quoted as saying: . . . .|The experts will not be pleased !!! ..... I can just see someone yelling "technical questions should be asked in "questions" :) (assuming that this constitutes a "technical question") . . . .| . . . .|boot into single user mode by hitting any key other than enter at the count down screen then type boot -s. type passwd to change root password than type exit to boot into normal mode . . . .| . . . .|I've noticed a number of messages like this over recent months & wondered how anyone could get into that situation. It appears that they have somehow got past the dialog box that pops up during install asking for root password ... something I would have thought impossible. Since Matthew has managed to achieve this, maybe he could enlighten me on exactly how he did it ?? . . . .| . . . .|If in fact its possible to just [enter] [enter] past the "you must now provide the root user password" dialog that would explain I guess its possible to do that in W2K Pro, but not in any other operating system that I've ever used. . . . .| . . . .| -----Original Message----- . . . .| . . . .| From: Matthew Murphy [mailto:fluidlord@hotmail.com] . . . .| Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 2:06 PM . . . .| To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG . . . .| Subject: Installing . . . .| . . . .| . . . .| I got freebsd installed, I reboot and it ask me for login, so i put root, asdk me for password and i leave it blank and it tells me incorrect login? . . . .| . . . .| Can anyone help me? . . . .| . . . .| Matthew . . . .| . . . .| . . . .| . . . .| . . . .| . . . .| . . . .| . . . .| . . . .|
The experts . . . .|will not be pleased !!! ..... I can just see someone yelling "technical . . . .|questions should be asked in "questions" :)  (assuming that this . . . .|constitutes a "technical question")
. . . .|
 
. . . .|
boot into single user mode by hitting any key other than enter at . . . .|the count down screen then type boot -s.  . . . .|type passwd to change root password than type exit to boot into normal . . . .|mode
. . . .|
 
. . . .|
I've noticed a number of messages like this over recent . . . .|months & wondered how anyone could get into that situation.  It appears . . . .|that they have somehow got past the dialog box that pops up during install . . . .|asking for root password ... something I would have thought . . . .|impossible. Since Matthew has managed to achieve this, maybe he could . . . .|enlighten me on exactly how he did it ??
. . . .|
 
. . . .|
If in fact its possible to just [enter] [enter] past . . . .|the "you must now provide the root user password" dialog that would explain I . . . .|guess its possible to do that in W2K Pro, but not in any other operating system . . . .|that I've ever used.
. . . .|
 
. . . .|
. . . .|
. . . .|
-----Original Message-----
. . . .|
. . . .|

From: Matthew . . . .| Murphy [mailto:fluidlord@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, . . . .| 2001 2:06 PM
To: freebsd- newbies@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: . . . .| Installing

 . . . .|
I got freebsd installed, I reboot and it ask me . . . .| for login, so i put root, asdk me for password and i leave it blank and it . . . .| tells me incorrect login?
. . . .|
 
. . . .|
Can anyone help me?
. . . .|
 
. . . .|
Matthew
. . . .| www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 15:29:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin2.email.bigpond.com (juicer14.bigpond.com [139.134.6.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB63137B422 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:29:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.56]) by mailin2.email.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDG9D900.3TD; Thu, 17 May 2001 08:34:21 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail3.bigpond.com (Claudes-Superb-MailRouter V2.9c 5/3539654); 17 May 2001 08:28:37 Message-ID: <090701c0de57$99cfd730$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Peter" , References: Subject: Re: Installing Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 08:28:56 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I think it asks you for a password when root first logs in -- at least that is how I remember it > when doing 4.2-R install. yeah it does, but you were supposed to have set that root password during the install. There is a dialog box pops up saying something like "You must now set the root password", then there is another dialog asking you to enter the password again to confirm. http://troll.apana.org.au/~freebsd/root_password_1.jpg http://troll.apana.org.au/~freebsd/root_password_2.jpg http://troll.apana.org.au/~freebsd/root_password_3.jpg What interested me was exactly how people manage to get past those. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 15:38:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from web11705.mail.yahoo.com (web11705.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BCAB37B422 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:38:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tperlin@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010516223817.92290.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.200.148.220] by web11705.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:38:17 PDT Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:38:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Erlin Subject: RE: Installing To: Brian Lau , Matthew Murphy Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org alright, so I just tried this method (4.3-RELEASE) and it doesn't seem to work for me. I get: #passwd passwd: not found # --Tim --- Brian Lau wrote: > boot into single user mode by hitting any key other > than enter at the > count down screen then type boot -s. type passwd to > change root > password than type exit to boot into normal mode. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew Murphy [mailto:fluidlord@hotmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 2:06 PM > To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Installing > > > I got freebsd installed, I reboot and it ask me for > login, so i put > root, asdk me for password and i leave it blank and > it tells me > incorrect login? > > Can anyone help me? > > Matthew > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 15:42:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin7.bigpond.com (juicer38.bigpond.com [139.134.6.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41F1C37B422 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:42:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.58]) by mailin7.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDG9Z700.63S; Thu, 17 May 2001 08:47:31 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail1.bigpond.com (Claudes-Trusting-MailRouter V2.9c 1/5166795); 17 May 2001 08:41:52 Message-ID: <092901c0de59$7075ae30$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Tim Erlin" , "Brian Lau" , "Matthew Murphy" Cc: References: <20010516223817.92290.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Installing Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 08:42:06 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > alright, so I just tried this method (4.3-RELEASE) and > it doesn't seem to work for me. > > I get: > > #passwd > passwd: not found > # I'm certain that Brian is correct because I've done that many times ... maybe you need to give the full path to "password" or something (like "/usr/bin/passwd" or wherever it is) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 15:51:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from web11702.mail.yahoo.com (web11702.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EEBFB37B423 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:51:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tperlin@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010516225130.26057.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.200.148.220] by web11702.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:51:30 PDT Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:51:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Erlin Subject: Re: Installing To: Doug Young , Brian Lau , Matthew Murphy Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <092901c0de59$7075ae30$0300a8c0@oracle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, so for confirmations sake, I did 'whereis passwd' and got '/usr/bin/passwd' I then booted into single user and ran '/usr/bin/passwd' and got '/usr/bin/passwd: not found' It also appears that /usr is empty. Odd, no? --Tim --- Doug Young wrote: > > > alright, so I just tried this method (4.3-RELEASE) > and > > it doesn't seem to work for me. > > > > I get: > > > > #passwd > > passwd: not found > > # > > I'm certain that Brian is correct because I've done > that many > times ... maybe you need to give the full path to > "password" > or something (like "/usr/bin/passwd" or wherever it > is) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of > the message __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 15:56:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp011.mail.yahoo.com (smtp011.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E42BE37B423 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:56:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsdq@yahoo.com) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 May 2001 22:56:41 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:00:14 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: tperlin@yahoo.com, "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" , "questions@freebsd.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Installing Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org type 'mount /usr' or better yet type 'vipw' [i think that is on /bin] and just delete the encrypted password, then exit and reboot into normal mode type root and it won't assk for password. On 05/16/2001 4:51:30 PM, Tim Erlin is quoted as saying: . . . .|Ok, so for confirmations sake, I did 'whereis passwd' . . . .|and got '/usr/bin/passwd' . . . .| . . . .|I then booted into single user and ran . . . .|'/usr/bin/passwd' and got '/usr/bin/passwd: not found' . . . .| . . . .|It also appears that /usr is empty. Odd, no? . . . .| . . . .|--Tim . . . .| . . . .|--- Doug Young wrote: . . . .|> . . . .|> > alright, so I just tried this method (4.3-RELEASE) . . . .|> and . . . .|> > it doesn't seem to work for me. . . . .|> > . . . .|> > I get: . . . .|> > . . . .|> > #passwd . . . .|> > passwd: not found . . . .|> > # . . . .|> . . . .|> I'm certain that Brian is correct because I've done . . . .|> that many . . . .|> times ... maybe you need to give the full path to . . . .|> "password" . . . .|> or something (like "/usr/bin/passwd" or wherever it . . . .|> is) . . . .|> . . . .|> . . . .|> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org . . . .|> with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of . . . .|> the message . . . .| . . . .| . . . .|__________________________________________________ . . . .|Do You Yahoo!? . . . .|Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices . . . .|http://auctions.yahoo.com/ . . . .| . . . .|To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org . . . .|with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 15:59:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from web11708.mail.yahoo.com (web11708.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2759337B424 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:59:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tperlin@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010516225901.83005.qmail@web11708.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.200.148.220] by web11708.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:59:01 PDT Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:59:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Erlin Subject: Re: Installing To: Peter , "freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG" , "questions@freebsd.org" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks. I was headed down that path just now and found that I needed to 'mount /usr' and 'mount -w /' to get the change to write properly. --Tim --- Peter wrote: > type 'mount /usr' > or better yet type 'vipw' [i think that is on /bin] > and just delete the encrypted password, then exit > and reboot into normal mode > type root and it won't assk for password. > > On 05/16/2001 4:51:30 PM, Tim Erlin is quoted as > saying: > > > . . . .|Ok, so for confirmations sake, I did > 'whereis passwd' > . . . .|and got '/usr/bin/passwd' > . . . .| > . . . .|I then booted into single user and ran > . . . .|'/usr/bin/passwd' and got '/usr/bin/passwd: > not found' > . . . .| > . . . .|It also appears that /usr is empty. Odd, no? > . . . .| > . . . .|--Tim > . . . .| > . . . .|--- Doug Young > wrote: > . . . .|> > . . . .|> > alright, so I just tried this method > (4.3-RELEASE) > . . . .|> and > . . . .|> > it doesn't seem to work for me. > . . . .|> > > . . . .|> > I get: > . . . .|> > > . . . .|> > #passwd > . . . .|> > passwd: not found > . . . .|> > # > . . . .|> > . . . .|> I'm certain that Brian is correct because > I've done > . . . .|> that many > . . . .|> times ... maybe you need to give the full > path to > . . . .|> "password" > . . . .|> or something (like "/usr/bin/passwd" or > wherever it > . . . .|> is) > . . . .|> > . . . .|> > . . . .|> To Unsubscribe: send mail to > majordomo@FreeBSD.org > . . . .|> with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the > body of > . . . .|> the message > . . . .| > . . . .| > . . . > .|__________________________________________________ > . . . .|Do You Yahoo!? > . . . .|Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at > great prices > . . . .|http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > . . . .| > . . . .|To Unsubscribe: send mail to > majordomo@FreeBSD.org > . . . .|with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the > body of the message > > > > www.nul.cjb.net > www.FreeBSD.org > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 16:15:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF06037B423; Wed, 16 May 2001 16:15:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4GNEYv89299; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:14:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:14:34 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Erlin Cc: Doug Young , Brian Lau , Matthew Murphy , questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing Message-ID: <20010517091433.N26110@welearn.com.au> References: <092901c0de59$7075ae30$0300a8c0@oracle> <20010516225130.26057.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010516225130.26057.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com>; from tperlin@yahoo.com on Wed, May 16, 2001 at 03:51:30PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 16, 2001 at 03:51:30PM -0700, Tim Erlin wrote: > Ok, so for confirmations sake, I did 'whereis passwd' > and got '/usr/bin/passwd' > > I then booted into single user and ran > '/usr/bin/passwd' and got '/usr/bin/passwd: not found' > > It also appears that /usr is empty. Odd, no? No, not odd. If you had asked in freebsd-questions originally, someone would have followed up on that answer and provided the missing information. If the person who answered your question had rubbed out the "newbies" and replaced with "questions" in the headers, the answer would have gone to freebsd-questions and you would have gotten a cc on it and any replies. That's why we insist that ANSWERS (as well as their questions!) should always go to freebsd-questions. Nobody wants to risk taking a wrong or incomplete answer from a newbie or from a knowledgeable person without peer review of that answer. Tim, see the FAQ under System Administration where it explains what to do if you've lost your root password. Your /usr/partition is not mounted at that stage, which is why you can't see (or use) its contents. [...] At the question about the shell to use, hit ENTER. You'll be dropped to a # prompt. Enter mount -u / to remount your root filesystem read/write, then run mount -a to remount all the filesystems. Run passwd root to change the root password then run exit to continue booting. People... sure this guy could have found it in the FAQ, but that's no excuse to cause him to have the frustration of going off and doing the wrong (or incomplete) thing and failing. Everyone makes mistakes or omissions in answers occasionally, and that's why, when we have some help to offer, we offer it in freebsd-questions where others can see and correct or amplify the answer, to avoid giving new people the run-around. If your answer is NOT good enough to post to freebsd-questions, then it is certainly NOT good enough to inflict on newbie. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed May 16 23:12:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.1speedcom.com (ns1.1speedcom.com [202.134.244.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366D337B42C for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 23:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ranel@1speedcom.com) Received: from dhl.1speedcom.com (eugene.1speedcom.com [202.134.244.133]) by ns1.1speedcom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 417DB24DBE for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:58:55 +0800 (PHT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010517143107.00a3f700@mail.1speedcom.com> X-Sender: ranel@mail.1speedcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 14:32:35 +0100 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org From: ranel Subject: recover root passworf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi there! How will i recover my root password in freebsd? Thank you in Advance ranel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu May 17 1:10:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp1.a2000.nl (phoenix.a2000.nl [62.108.1.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F047637B422 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 01:10:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from devnull@chello.nl) Received: from node10b74.a2000.nl ([24.132.11.116] helo=chello.nl) by smtp1.a2000.nl with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #4) id 150IqO-0003St-00; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:09:12 +0200 Message-ID: <3B0395AA.3919A659@chello.nl> Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:11:07 +0100 From: dev2 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ranel Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: recover root passworf References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010517143107.00a3f700@mail.1speedcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ehm.... Didnt we just discuss this ? }}:) Devnull ranel wrote: > hi there! > > How will i recover my root password in freebsd? > Thank you in Advance > > ranel > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu May 17 6:28:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com (imo-m09.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6989737B422; Thu, 17 May 2001 06:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from MrK1nt@aol.com) Received: from MrK1nt@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id 8.db.148ec707 (15859); Thu, 17 May 2001 09:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web28.aolmail.aol.com (web28.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.222.4]) by air-id05.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.37) with ESMTP; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:27:49 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:27:49 EDT From: MrK1nt@aol.com Subject: Re: Updated Pedantic FreeBSD now online To: , Cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Message-ID: Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Another good tut. provided to us by Doug. Thanks D!! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu May 17 7:36:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailin5.bigpond.com (juicer02.bigpond.com [139.134.6.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B92637B422 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 07:36:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.55]) by mailin5.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDHI5W00.COX; Fri, 18 May 2001 00:41:56 +1000 Received: from CPE-61-9-142-177.vic.bigpond.net.au ([61.9.142.177]) by mail4.bigpond.com (Claudes-Aquatic-MailRouter V2.9c 7/19409106); 18 May 2001 00:36:28 Message-ID: <0bee01c0dede$c5164190$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "Mario Lia" , "Brian Lau" , "Matthew Murphy" Cc: References: <11320621107BD211A07B0008C70994BE0273E541@EXCHANGE> Subject: Re: Installing Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:36:32 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I am in the process of my first FreeBSD install and in one of my many > install attempts I did enter into that situation. The way I did it, was to > take the "Custom" install path. When you do that you aren't forced into > setting a root password, you only set it if you want to. > Ahhhhhhhh ..... thanks Mario. I've done hundreds of installs but always using "standard" install. Sounds like you've answered the question though. I think it might be worth posting a problem report about this issue .... at the least in would be good to strengthen the wording of the line that advises use of "standard" install. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu May 17 8: 7: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from web11705.mail.yahoo.com (web11705.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D53737B42C for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 08:06:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tperlin@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010517150658.91195.qmail@web11705.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.200.148.220] by web11705.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 17 May 2001 08:06:58 PDT Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 08:06:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Erlin Subject: Re: recover root passworf To: ranel , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010517143107.00a3f700@mail.1speedcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Please ask all technical questions in -questions. Newbies is not the best place for an answer. Although you may receive one, there is a peer review process in place for -questions that ensures you get an accurate answer. I have forwarded your question there as well. --Tim --- ranel wrote: > hi there! > > How will i recover my root password in freebsd? > Thank you in Advance > > ranel > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of > the message __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu May 17 11:40:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f60.law12.hotmail.com [64.4.19.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB10B37B422 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:40:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from delmonik_contee@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:40:31 -0700 Received: from 192.104.54.1 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 17 May 2001 18:40:31 GMT X-Originating-IP: [192.104.54.1] From: "Delmonik Contee" To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org Subject: Hello Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 18:40:31 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 May 2001 18:40:31.0612 (UTC) FILETIME=[D9F59BC0:01C0DF00] Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org
Hello,
    I am extremely interested in educating myself on the configuration and utilization of FreeBSD. I was wondering if I could get some information on good beginners material. I have a PC with Windows 2000 professional and was wondering if it would be possible for me to set up a dual boot with FreeBSD 4.2. I am a computer technician and I think it would be a good career move for me to learn the Unix operating system. Thank you for whatever information that you may offer.

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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu May 17 12:17:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from ancmail1.state.ak.us (ent.state.ak.us [146.63.92.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732FE37B423 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 12:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian_raynes@dnr.state.ak.us) Received: from dnr.state.ak.us ([146.63.110.115]) by ancmail1.state.ak.us (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GDHUX100.TRD; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:17:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3B0423A5.FD1CEA82@dnr.state.ak.us> Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:16:53 -0800 From: Brian Raynes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Delmonik Contee , freebsd newbies Subject: Re: Hello References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Delmonik Contee wrote: > > Hello, > I am extremely interested in educating myself on the > configuration and utilization of FreeBSD. I was wondering if I could > get some information on good beginners material. Start with the free documentation. The freebsd.org website has links to the Freebsd Handbook and some other good docs that are newbie specific. These contain some basic UNIX material that will be applicable with FreeBSD or other UNIX operating systems. For more generic UNIX stuff that will apply to actually using FreeBSD, check out O'Reilly books. Another book that's good is UNIX System Administration by Evi Nemeth and others. It gets lots of good recommendations and I can say that it's been very informative to me, as a newbie. Special mention should go to Greg Lehey's "The Complete FreeBSD". It was last updated for the 3.x release branch, but is still quite applicable. The author is pretty active on the freebsd-questions list and many people can provide help where the 4.x branch differs from the 3.x branch. As a newbie, using Greg's book, I got hung up on some simple things that were due to these differences, but was able to find answers in the mailing list archives and the Handbook. The handbook had some extensive updates done last year that greatly improved it's helpfulness to me. If you're feeling like starting cheap before shelling out bucks for books, start with those free docs, they're free but you get much more than you pay for! >I have a PC with > Windows 2000 professional and was wondering if it would be possible > for me to set up a dual boot with FreeBSD 4.2. I can't help you specifically there, but there are other docs that cover sharing freebsd with other operating systems. I'm not sure if Win2K is covered there yet, but if not, I suspect that the NT stuff might apply. And I'm positive there will be similar questions in the archives of the freebsd-questions mailing list, since the desire to dual boot with Windows is very, very common. Good luck. As a newbie that has been lurking here for some time, I can tell you that a little reading of the available docs, plus reading Greg Lehey's regularly posted message regarding asking good questions on freebsd-questions, will go a long ways toward getting help from what I have found to be a very knowledgeable and helpful group (when treated nicely). Brian Raynes To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu May 17 12:46:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704EB37B423 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 12:46:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Charles.S.Libby@motorola.com) Received: [from pobox3.mot.com (pobox3.mot.com [10.64.251.242]) by motgate.mot.com (motgate 2.1) with ESMTP id MAA14372 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 12:46:52 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from il33exm02.wes.mot.com (il33exm02.wes.mot.com [154.56.3.102]) by pobox3.mot.com (MOT-pobox3 2.0) with ESMTP id MAA21812 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 12:40:48 -0700 (MST)] Received: by il33exm02.wes.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:46:51 -0500 Message-ID: From: Libby Charles-CCL044 To: "'Delmonik Contee'" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Hello Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 14:46:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A good place to start is with the first aid kit. Here is the copy of the last one put out. Then lurk, read, and listen then read some more. I am at this stage my self since I just came from the Windows side too. Charles FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit (This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. It is also available at http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/) FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions about installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help requests are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions. FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for help or answer how-to questions. It is a discussion forum for newbies. FreeBSD-Newbies provides a place for new FreeBSD users to meet and covers any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD community. We take our problems and support questions to freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are doing the same things that we do as newbies. One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: When something doesn't work the way you expect 1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and security advisories. 2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search.html 3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. Mailing lists When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. FreeBSD-questions helps with installation and basic setup as well as more general and advanced questions. You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the recent questions and their answers. Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when they get questions which are difficult to understand. http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too. If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to the support mailing list. Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search.html first you might get the answer right away. It's always worth trying. Other mailing lists (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-CHARTERS) cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for advice about where to post a more specialised question. FreeBSD-announce is a very low volume read-only list for occasional announcements, such as notice of new releases, and the Really Quick Newsletter. It's worth subscribing to FreeBSD-announce too. Manuals You'll always be expected to show that you have made some effort to use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not always as easy as it sounds! If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction. Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/docproj.html Other resources A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies.html to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. But I have seen people asking questions here! It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose job it is to sort these problems out privately. The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies so we all make mistakes. That's OK. One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions, believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently. There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either. So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the mistakes that we need to make in order to learn. -----Original Message----- From: Delmonik Contee [mailto:delmonik_contee@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 1:41 PM To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Hello Hello, I am extremely interested in educating myself on the configuration and utilization of FreeBSD. I was wondering if I could get some information on good beginners material. I have a PC with Windows 2000 professional and was wondering if it would be possible for me to set up a dual boot with FreeBSD 4.2. I am a computer technician and I think it would be a good career move for me to learn the Unix operating system. Thank you for whatever information that you may offer. Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu May 17 14:24:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9672237B422 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:24:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r2.bfm.org [216.127.220.98]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:28:33 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010517162252.00a941a0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:22:52 -0500 To: Delmonik Contee , freebsd newbies From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Hello In-Reply-To: <3B0423A5.FD1CEA82@dnr.state.ak.us> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:16 17-05-2001 -0800, Brian Raynes wrote: >For more generic UNIX stuff that will apply to actually using FreeBSD, A wealth of generic Unix information can also be found in many of the tutorials present at the http://blacksun.box.sk/tutorials.html site. Though the site is primarily aimed at people who want to learn how to break into computers (not just Unix), it has some useful newbie Unix articles. Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri May 18 19:10:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1307137B422 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 19:10:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from sue@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4J2A1303437 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 May 2001 19:10:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:10:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Message-Id: <200105190210.f4J2A1303437@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit (This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. It is also available at http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/) FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions about installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help requests are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions. FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for help or answer how-to questions. It is a discussion forum for newbies. FreeBSD-Newbies provides a place for new FreeBSD users to meet and covers any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD community. We take our problems and support questions to freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are doing the same things that we do as newbies. One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: When something doesn't work the way you expect 1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and security advisories. 2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search.html 3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. Mailing lists When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. FreeBSD-questions helps with installation and basic setup as well as more general and advanced questions. You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the recent questions and their answers. Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when they get questions which are difficult to understand. http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too. If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to the support mailing list. Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search.html first you might get the answer right away. It's always worth trying. Other mailing lists (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-CHARTERS) cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for advice about where to post a more specialised question. FreeBSD-announce is a very low volume read-only list for occasional announcements, such as notice of new releases, and the Really Quick Newsletter. It's worth subscribing to FreeBSD-announce too. Manuals You'll always be expected to show that you have made some effort to use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not always as easy as it sounds! If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction. Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/docproj.html Other resources A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies.html to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. But I have seen people asking questions here! It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose job it is to sort these problems out privately. The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies so we all make mistakes. That's OK. One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions, believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently. There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either. So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the mistakes that we need to make in order to learn. _________________________________________________________________ To Subscribe to FreeBSD-Newbies: Send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "subscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message. Mail sent to freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org appears on the mailing list. _________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat May 19 23: 6:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from drake.host4u.net (drake.host4u.net [216.71.64.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E94837B42C; Sat, 19 May 2001 23:06:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsddiary@drake.host4u.net) Received: (from freebsddiary@localhost) by drake.host4u.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA05847; Sun, 20 May 2001 01:07:01 -0500 Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 01:07:01 -0500 Message-Id: <200105200607.BAA05847@drake.host4u.net> From: Dan Langille To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: The FreeBSD Diary: 2001-04-29 - 2001-05-19 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The FreeBSD Diary contains a large number of practical examples and how-to guides. This message is posted weekly to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org with the aim of letting people know what's available on the website. Before you post a question here it might be a good idea to first search the mailing list archives and/or The FreeBSD Diary . These are the articles posted during this period: 19-May : New city, new LAN, new Laptop Ahh the fun that goes with relocating... http://freebsddiary.org/newlan.php?2 13-May : The trip north Packing, selling, giving, and flying http://freebsddiary.org/newjob2.php?2 -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ - the place for ports To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message