From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 19 0:23: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4847337B400 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8364543E65 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:22:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id g7J7MqF64105; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:22:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Cc: "FreeBSD Advocacy" Subject: Your Chasing Linux article dated August 9th Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:22:50 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c24751$399e6480$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Maggie, Thanks for the FreeBSD exposure on: http://www.infoworld.com/articles/fe/xml/02/08/12/020812fefreebsd.xml I would like to comment on some of your statements a bit, and as I've published a book on FreeBSD I think I know just a little about it: >inability to draw on the wealth of commercial and open-source >applications available for Linux FreeBSD is not a commercial operating system. Linux is a pseudo-commercial operating system regardless of what it's proponents may say. Understand, my use of the term "commercial" means a product that is sold for money, it does not mean the ability or inability to be used as a base for production systems in business. Because Linux is pseudo-commercial, sales figures are very important to many players. Thus, much attention is given to the number of installed seats, sales, preloads, commercial apps ported to it etc. This is no different than Solaris, MacOS X, Windows, etc. FreeBSD isn't like that, most people using it and developing it don't care that much about how many people use it, as long as a critical mass of people are using it, and FreeBSD installs have long ago gone past that point. (of course, all this ignores FreeBSD embedded systems sales, which there is not good figures for, as most embedded systems vendors don't advertise when they are using FreeBSD. Besides, embedded FreeBSD versions are modified and may not be following the current FreeBSD release tree anyway)) So, you are in effect making an apples-to-oranges comparison. It is like comparing how much money Microsoft makes every year to how much money the United Way makes every year. This kind of comparison really doesen't have a lot of validity. If a business would rather use Linux than FreeBSD because Linux has more seats installed, that is perfectly fine to most members of the FreeBSD project. They are not in a "race" with Linux, and your article title of "Chasing Linux" is rather inappropriate, I think. Most members of the FreeBSD project would probably say "as long as they aren't using Microsoft that's all we care about" if they even bothered to comment. In fact, if you ever go to a FreeBSD conference, you will most likely be astounded at the number of FreeBSD developers running MacOS X on Powerbooks, instead of FreeBSD on Intel laptops. MacOS X, incidentally, is built partly on FreeBSD 3.2, something that always seems to be forgotten in these sales figures arguments. >FreeBSD lacks the polish found in leading Linux distributions. This is because Linux is pseudo-commercial. A more accurate statement would be that FreeBSD lacks the polish found in leading commercial Linux distros, because that is exactly what RedHat is - it's a commercialized version of Linux. (and RedHat is the leading Linux distro) Whether this is a Bad Thing is I believe open to interpretation. Once again, if an individual would choose Linux over FreeBSD because of it's "polish" then more power to them. I might point out, though, that Microsoft Windows is infinitely more polished than the most commercialized version of Linux, and so if "polish" is that important to the user, why are they even using Linux at all? I think the kind of polish your referring to is something that will only be found in a commercial operating system simply because a commercial OS must attract more and more seats to make more and more money, and "polish" is the glitz that attracts attention so as to sell the product. > the aging character-based installer, though utilitarian, will likely > prove challenging to users who may be new to FreeBSD The character-based installer permits installation of FreeBSD on systems that don't have video cards that Xfree86 can run on. Granted there are not many systems where this is the case, but there are a few. I have run across a number of systems, particularly older ones, that many Linux distros can't install on because the Linux installer can't bring up X Windows on the hardware. There is also another benefit to the character-based installer that is not present in the Linux GUI installers. This is that, by their very nature, installers have to be extremely customized to what they are installing. That takes development time. It takes more development time to custom-modify a GUI installer than a simpler character-based one. So, you have precious developer hours being spent on the installer that would otherwise be available for what the installer is installing. > The second drawback is the need to manually configure many common tasks, > such as X Windows setup and basic networking. We did try to use the > built-in tools to set up these items in the installer, but our entries > did not seem to take. Thus, we had to manually set up many common tasks. This is probably due to the fact that Preview 5.0 is beta code. While existing FreeBSD shops may want to look into FreeBSD 5.0, anyone trying FreeBSD for the first time should install the current production version, 4.6, and get familiar with that. By the time they are ready for their first FreeBSD production deployment, 4.7 will be out and they should install that. FreeBSD 5.0 is the first release in the new 5.0 branch and it is most likely going to have some teething problems. Questions 1.6, 1.7, and 1.8 in the FreeBSD FAQ are a more specific explanation of the above. It's a shame that you didn't refer to the FAQ before writing your article, you shouldn't be steering first time FreeBSD users to 5.0 Other than that, thanks for the time spent looking at FreeBSD! Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 19 0:38:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9636D37B400 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C1043E72 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:38:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D861D81679; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:08:25 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:08:25 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: maggie_biggs@infoworld.com, FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: Your Chasing Linux article dated August 9th Message-ID: <20020819073825.GR43138@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <000601c24751$399e6480$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000601c24751$399e6480$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, 19 August 2002 at 0:22:50 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Hi Maggie, > > Thanks for the FreeBSD exposure on: > http://www.infoworld.com/articles/fe/xml/02/08/12/020812fefreebsd.xml > > I would like to comment on some > of your statements a bit, and as I've published a book on FreeBSD I > think I know just a little about it: > >> inability to draw on the wealth of commercial and open-source >> applications available for Linux > > FreeBSD is not a commercial operating system. Linux is a > pseudo-commercial operating system regardless of what it's > proponents may say. As a member of the FreeBSD core team I'd like to clarify that this an expression of personal opinion, not an official statement of the FreeBSD project. What follows is my personal opinion. I think you also miss the point: the statement is misleading at best. FreeBSD *can* draw on the wealth of commercial and open-source applications available for Linux, as is clarified further down in the article with the examples of OpenOffice, KDE, Gnome and others. >> FreeBSD lacks the polish found in leading Linux distributions. > > I think the kind of polish your referring to is something that will > only be found in a commercial operating system simply because a > commercial OS must attract more and more seats to make more and more > money, and "polish" is the glitz that attracts attention so as to > sell the product. I'd be more interested in knowing which areas, apart from the install program, appear less polished. >> The second drawback is the need to manually configure many common >> tasks, such as X Windows setup and basic networking. We did try to >> use the built-in tools to set up these items in the installer, but >> our entries did not seem to take. Thus, we had to manually set up >> many common tasks. > > This is probably due to the fact that Preview 5.0 is beta code. Possibly. Certainly the changes should "take". It would be interesting to hear what exactly happened; possibly it points to a bug in the current version of the installer. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 19 5:43:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE7B337B400 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 05:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay5.kornet.net (relay5.kornet.net [211.48.62.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEDDC43E6A for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 05:43:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggaggung07@kornet.net) Received: from you2-8qqrs7eqb3 (61.73.32.180) by relay5.kornet.net; 19 Aug 2002 21:43:07 +0900 Message-ID: <3d60e7dd3d6d2126@relay5.kornet.net> (added by relay5.kornet.net) From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?x/a068SrteU=?= To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIGZyZWVic2QtYWR2b2NhY3m01CDH4L/uwMcgs9fA2SDFrLfOudm/zSC6ubHHwLsgteW4s7TPtNkh?= 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IHNpemU9IjIiIGZhY2U9IrG8uLIiIGNvbG9yPSIjMzMzMzMzIj5lbmV4dG9wQGx5Y29zLmNv LmtyPC9mb250PjwvYT48Zm9udCBzaXplPSIyIiBmYWNlPSKxvLiyIiBjb2xvcj0iIzMzMzMz MyI+IA0KICAgICAgICAgICAgJm5ic3A7PC9mb250PjwvcD4NCiAgICAgICAgPC90ZD4NCiAg ICA8L3RyPg0KPC90YWJsZT4NCjxwPiZuYnNwOzwvcD4NCjwvYm9keT4NCg0KPC9odG1sPg0K ------=_NextPart_000_0207_01C0F50A.93A58C00-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 19 8:51:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE42C37B492 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5152143E81 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:51:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 17gooD-000JQX-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:51:13 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g7JFpA3H090028 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:51:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g7JFp95g090027 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:51:09 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:51:09 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? Message-ID: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan *17gooD-000JQX-00*bAehintppfM* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think it's interesting that we have Red Hat, United Linux (with the LSB stamp?), and now Sun rolling their own. It seems that this was part of the plan all along of these big corporations, and this could lead to the exact same kind of fragmentation that brought down Unix in the first place. Will the GPL help, hinder, or be irrelevant to prevent this? NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 19 9:21:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF9E37B400; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F3843E72; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:21:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id g7JGLhF65184; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:21:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: , "FreeBSD Advocacy" Subject: RE: Your Chasing Linux article dated August 9th Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:21:43 -0700 Message-ID: <001601c2479c$819e4a20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20020819073825.GR43138@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Maggie, Greg has _also_ written a book (several editions, in fact) on FreeBSD. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey [mailto:grog@FreeBSD.org] >Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 12:38 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: maggie_biggs@infoworld.com; FreeBSD Advocacy >Subject: Re: Your Chasing Linux article dated August 9th > > >On Monday, 19 August 2002 at 0:22:50 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> Hi Maggie, >> >> Thanks for the FreeBSD exposure on: >> http://www.infoworld.com/articles/fe/xml/02/08/12/020812fefreebsd.xml >> >> I would like to comment on some >> of your statements a bit, and as I've published a book on FreeBSD I >> think I know just a little about it: >> >>> inability to draw on the wealth of commercial and open-source >>> applications available for Linux >> >> FreeBSD is not a commercial operating system. Linux is a >> pseudo-commercial operating system regardless of what it's >> proponents may say. > >As a member of the FreeBSD core team I'd like to clarify that this an >expression of personal opinion, not an official statement of the >FreeBSD project. What follows is my personal opinion. > >I think you also miss the point: the statement is misleading at best. >FreeBSD *can* draw on the wealth of commercial and open-source >applications available for Linux, as is clarified further down in the >article with the examples of OpenOffice, KDE, Gnome and others. > >>> FreeBSD lacks the polish found in leading Linux distributions. >> >> I think the kind of polish your referring to is something that will >> only be found in a commercial operating system simply because a >> commercial OS must attract more and more seats to make more and more >> money, and "polish" is the glitz that attracts attention so as to >> sell the product. > >I'd be more interested in knowing which areas, apart from the install >program, appear less polished. > >>> The second drawback is the need to manually configure many common >>> tasks, such as X Windows setup and basic networking. We did try to >>> use the built-in tools to set up these items in the installer, but >>> our entries did not seem to take. Thus, we had to manually set up >>> many common tasks. >> >> This is probably due to the fact that Preview 5.0 is beta code. > >Possibly. Certainly the changes should "take". It would be >interesting to hear what exactly happened; possibly it points to a bug >in the current version of the installer. > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address and phone numbers > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 19 14: 6: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1522A37B400 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1724943E3B for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:06:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a134.otenet.gr [212.205.215.134]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g7JL40kH016032; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:04:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7JL3VqK002799; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:04:01 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g7JJMDYW002180; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:22:13 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:22:12 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? Message-ID: <20020819192212.GF1645@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: C1EB 0653 DB8B A557 3829 00F9 D60F 941A 3186 03B6 X-Phone: +30-944-116520 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2002-08-19 16:51 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I think it's interesting that we have Red Hat, United Linux (with > the LSB stamp?), and now Sun rolling their own. There's nothing wrong with having many Linux distributions. The fact that Sun rolls their own distribution or that Redhat, Suse, Debian, "you name it", wants to write their own code on top of the Linux kernel[1] does not by any means imply that there is One True Way[TM] to do things in the Linux world. > It seems that this was part of the plan all along of these big > corporations, and this could lead to the exact same kind of > fragmentation that brought down Unix in the first place. Maybe. I am not sure. I don't really feel that anyone could prove something like this, without something equivalent to the infamous "Halloween Documents" leaking from within one of these big corps. - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 19 14:17:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34CA837B400 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tarbuck.nosignal.org (tarbuck.nosignal.org [212.43.167.149]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8401B43E3B for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andy@nosignal.org) Received: from andy by tarbuck.nosignal.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17gtxP-00087h-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:21:03 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? Cc: jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org Message-Id: From: Andy Davidson Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:21:03 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2002-08-19 16:51 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I think it's interesting that we have Red Hat, United Linux (with > the LSB stamp?), and now Sun rolling their own. Luckilly, one of the first things I learned as a sys-admin was that there is more than one way to skin a cat, and I personally find uses for many of the Linux distributions that persons on this list probably wouldn't touch (such as Mandrake) at times that I wouldn't dream of using BSD. (On some of the sales-people's desktops at work..) I personally don't classify the introduction of a range of distributions (even with their own bolt-ons to the Kernel) as a problem, I have always been a fan of choice. I hope I have not just fed the troll. -- Regards, Andy Davidson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 19 14:25: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2725137B400 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A56E43E6E for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:24:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yid@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 23658 invoked by uid 417); 19 Aug 2002 21:24:53 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 19 Aug 2002 21:24:53 -0000 Received: from unknown ([216.194.20.255]) (AUTH: LOGIN yid@softhome.net) by softhome.net with esmtp; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:24:51 -0600 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:28:01 -0400 From: Joshua Lee To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? Message-Id: <20020819172801.3225b81f.yid@softhome.net> In-Reply-To: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Organization: Plan B Software Labs X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.1claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.6) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:51:09 +0100 Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I think it's interesting that we have Red Hat, United Linux (with the > LSB stamp?), and now Sun rolling their own. Red Hat and some of the United Linux vendors (SuSE and Caldera) all managed to get the LSB certification. However, unless there were some big changes in some of these distributions (SuSE was pretty close to the LSB spec, but the others weren't) that is a pretty meaningless spec. Apparantly the folks who administer the LSB got tired of waiting for the major distributions to be complient and announced that everyone on the advisory panel was already complient. I'll believe that you can install any Red Hat RPM on SuSE and vice versa when I see it; knowing Red Hat their upcoming 8.0 version will break compatability with 7.x RPMs of their own distribution, let alone somebody else's. > It seems that this was part of the plan all along of these big > corporations, and this could lead to the exact same kind of > fragmentation that brought down Unix in the first place. > > Will the GPL help, hinder, or be irrelevant to prevent this? I think the GPL is pretty irrelevant to this, it doesn't seem to either encourage or prevent forks. As long as you make source code available of your changes you've fulfilled it AFAIK. (I happen to like the BSD license better from a philosophical standpoint, because I'm not religious about the existence of closed-source applications, but I don't think that it makes forks less likely than GPL - on the contrary forks have basically no resistance. However, the GPL doesn't provide much resistance to forks either in practice.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 19 15:18:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E527C37B401 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80BE43E72 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-209.247.137.16.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.137.16] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17gurI-0003PE-00; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:18:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3D616E82.FC89DA05@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:17:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? References: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I think it's interesting that we have Red Hat, United Linux (with the > LSB stamp?), and now Sun rolling their own. > > It seems that this was part of the plan all along of these big > corporations, and this could lead to the exact same kind of > fragmentation that brought down Unix in the first place. > > Will the GPL help, hinder, or be irrelevant to prevent this? > > NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. The LSB is a joke. It does not guarantee binary compatability, or the ability to run a program compiled on one vendor's Linux release on another vendor's Linux release. This is exactly the problem that faced UNIX during "The UNIX Wars", and was never resolved. The problem is that vendor extensions *cannot be turned off* by developers. Even if they could be, they won't be turned off by users, so there's no guarantee against collisions (e.g. "foofunc", if implemented by a developer because it was outside the standard, but defined and used internally by a vendor for the implementation of other functions that *are* defined by the standard means that the developer version would breaks some standards mandated functions on a particular platform, even though it's technically compliant). There is an inherent tension between the desire to claim to be standard compliant with any given standard, and the desire to lock developers into a particular developement version, and thereby, lock users into the same version. It is most often resolved on the side of lock-in. It's an economic version of "The Prisoner's Dilemma", and the basis is that there is no equalibrium point where all vendors agree to not fight border wars: doing so would be to accept the commoditization of their product. If that happens, what will differentiate "RedHat" from "Debian" from "SuSE", etc.? The answer is "nothing: that what a commodity *is*". I think that, in a minor way, the GPL will promote factionalization, since it will promote entry into the market, and there will be no release-delay or other barriers that can be thrown up, apart from the implementation of yet more vendor extensions. We've already seen this in the non-cooperation in the packaging formats between distributions, and we've seen "United Linux" attempt a USL-style "reconciliation", where there is one source base that is licensed to multiple seperate vendors (for the reasons above, United Linux is also a joke). Actually, I'd also like to address an assumption you've made, and I think it's not entirely correct: what "brought down UNIX" was the unwillingness of the UNIX vendors to compete against Microsoft directly. That's factionalization, not fragmentation. The fragmentation was unrelated. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Aug 19 18:49:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D01337B400 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ADEF43E65 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:49:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 30C318143C; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:19:45 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:19:45 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? Message-ID: <20020820014945.GB53494@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, 19 August 2002 at 16:51:09 +0100, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > I think it's interesting that we have Red Hat, United Linux (with the > LSB stamp?), and now Sun rolling their own. > > It seems that this was part of the plan all along of these big > corporations, and this could lead to the exact same kind of > fragmentation that brought down Unix in the first place. > > Will the GPL help, hinder, or be irrelevant to prevent this? My impression is that the Linux distros are consolidating, not diversifying. My guess is that in a few years there will only be two or three serious contenders. Some Linux people say that's the case today. Certainly people are beginning to realise the disadvantages of the current plethora of distros. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 20 5: 1:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5C637B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B3A43E77 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:01:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 17h7ef-000KAJ-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:58:37 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g7KBwb3H098793; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:58:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g7KBwa4P098792; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:58:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:58:36 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? Message-ID: <20020820115836.GB98478@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3D616E82.FC89DA05@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D616E82.FC89DA05@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan *17h7ef-000KAJ-00*0c9WaCpKjzc* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 03:17:38PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: | The LSB is a joke. It does not guarantee binary compatability, | or the ability to run a program compiled on one vendor's Linux | release on another vendor's Linux release. | | This is exactly the problem that faced UNIX during "The UNIX | Wars", and was never resolved. | The problem is that vendor extensions *cannot be turned off* by | There is an inherent tension between the desire to claim to be | standard compliant with any given standard, and the desire to | lock developers into a particular developement version, and | thereby, lock users into the same version. It is most often | resolved on the side of lock-in. | | It's an economic version of "The Prisoner's Dilemma", and the | basis is that there is no equalibrium point where all vendors | agree to not fight border wars: doing so would be to accept the | commoditization of their product. If that happens, what will | differentiate "RedHat" from "Debian" from "SuSE", etc.? The | answer is "nothing: that what a commodity *is*". Call me naive, but what I think should happend is a standard base distribution (kernel, libraries, directory layout) and then the differentiation should be in configuration (server, workstation, so on) and the add-on software, such as installers, admin utilities, and so on. The next step beyond that would be applications, which could be distributed binary-only. The idea would be to preserve (or gain?) binary compatibility, along with libs and directory layouts, and let the difference between distros be the add-on software, which doesn't need to be open-source/GPL. | Actually, I'd also like to address an assumption you've made, and | I think it's not entirely correct: what "brought down UNIX" was | the unwillingness of the UNIX vendors to compete against Microsoft | directly. That's factionalization, not fragmentation. The | fragmentation was unrelated. Correction noted. Is this because MS was perceived as so 'low-end' that Unix didn't feel they were even a threat on the radar screen, so-to-speak? jm -- My other computer is your Windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 20 5:38: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331DD37B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974E143E65 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:38:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0051.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.51] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17h8Gh-0007VJ-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:37:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3D62377E.88586FAB@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:35:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? References: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3D616E82.FC89DA05@mindspring.com> <20020820115836.GB98478@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > | There is an inherent tension between the desire to claim to be > | standard compliant with any given standard, and the desire to > | lock developers into a particular developement version, and > | thereby, lock users into the same version. It is most often > | resolved on the side of lock-in. > | > | It's an economic version of "The Prisoner's Dilemma", and the > | basis is that there is no equalibrium point where all vendors > | agree to not fight border wars: doing so would be to accept the > | commoditization of their product. If that happens, what will > | differentiate "RedHat" from "Debian" from "SuSE", etc.? The > | answer is "nothing: that what a commodity *is*". > > Call me naive, but what I think should happend is a standard base > distribution (kernel, libraries, directory layout) and then the > differentiation should be in configuration (server, workstation, so on) and > the add-on software, such as installers, admin utilities, and so on. The > next step beyond that would be applications, which could be distributed > binary-only. This only works for first order derivations. At some point, the pressure for differentiation becomes high enough that it is no longer able to be resisted. The OSs which were recently certified as LSB compliant are all based on a first order derivative; two of them are directly derived from RedHat, and one of them *is* RedHat. But even RedHat has deviated significantly from what Linus is distributing as "The One True Kernel". IBCS2 is a good example here for binary compatability; IBCS2 compliance, in theory, makes your OS capable of running code compiled for any other IBCS2 compliant machine. In fact, it makes a good attempt at it: it specifies the ABI, but it also specifies the install tools, etc.. LSB is similar to IBCS2 in that respect. Yet, it was still not possible to build on one machine and have it run on another, because of vendor specific extensions. A good example of this was 286/386 Xenix (medium model programs only). There was Intel Xenix, and Microsoft Xenix and SCO Xenix (2 & 3), and Altos Xenix and ACER Xenix (SCO Xenix + ACER extensions, like the use of a bitmap for allocations in the ACER FFS), etc. It turned out that if you wanted your code to run on every one of the Xenix systems out there, then you compiled on Altos Xenix; the compiler and libraries there produced the most portable code. If you compiled on Microsoft, you ran on Microsoft and SCO. If you compiled on SCO, you ran only on SCO. If you compiled on Intel, you ran on Intel and Microsoft. But... if you compiled on Altos, the resulting code ran on all those platforms, plus Cubix (the first "cube" form-factor machine) and Microport UNIX. > The idea would be to preserve (or gain?) binary compatibility, along with > libs and directory layouts, and let the difference between distros be the > add-on software, which doesn't need to be open-source/GPL. This approach only works if you get everyone to agree to what constitutes the base system, in terms of a reproducible *binary* image set for the OS (i.e., apart from timestamps, the files on the systems are byte-for-byte identical). I think this is not possible; you basically have to pick a minimalist system, and be able to turn off vendor extensions for this to work, in any case. > | Actually, I'd also like to address an assumption you've made, and > | I think it's not entirely correct: what "brought down UNIX" was > | the unwillingness of the UNIX vendors to compete against Microsoft > | directly. That's factionalization, not fragmentation. The > | fragmentation was unrelated. > > Correction noted. Is this because MS was perceived as so 'low-end' that > Unix didn't feel they were even a threat on the radar screen, so-to-speak? No; it's because it was easier to take market share away from other UNIX vendors than it was to build it from uncommitted potential customers, or to try to wrest it from Microsoft. It was basically a "path of least resistance" approach. That's my take on it anyway, and I was one of about 50 people in the room when the Novell VP (Kanwahl Rheki) made the first public announcement that Novell would be deemphasizing UNIX on the desktop: K.R.: Now we will open it up for questions... anyone? Me: So, if not UnixWare, what Novell OS will users be running on the desktop instead? K.R.: None. They will run Microsoft. I don't know if I believe Linux has the ability to actually give challenge to Microsoft's dominance on the desktop. I doubt it. But historically, at least they've identified the competition correctly. The recent move with United Linux, and now this "counterstrike" with "LSB certification" (which I think is definitely intended as return fire) seems to indicate that maybe the Linux companies are on their way to falling into the same trap the UNIX vendors did. It's in this area I would concentrate my attention, if I wanted to see if Linux was facing the problem raised by the "Subject:" line. Time will tell, I suppose... it always does. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 20 6:58:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D07837B401; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 06:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B4F43E75; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 06:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: from blackhelicopters.org (mwlucas@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blackhelicopters.org (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g7KDvIcC020242; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:57:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) id g7KDvIQR020241; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:57:18 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? Message-ID: <20020820095718.A20131@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020820014945.GB53494@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020820014945.GB53494@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 11:19:45AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 11:19:45AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > My impression is that the Linux distros are consolidating, not > diversifying. My guess is that in a few years there will only be two > or three serious contenders. Some Linux people say that's the case > today. Certainly people are beginning to realise the disadvantages of > the current plethora of distros. One other comment here, to drag this back to *FreeBSD* advocacy: Many of the so-called distros out there now are actually based on one of the big distros, with only one or two changes. These distros die after a release or two. (Admittedly, some of these 1-2 changes can be quite large, i.e., using KDE instead of GNOME.) We do something very analagous by providing the ability for people to build their own custom releases. If anything, the roll-your-own-distro market might be a prime candidate for conversion to FreeBSD. We provide a "distro-building toolchain," where you can change anything you like and build a custom FreeBSD, completely from source, with whatever level of GPL-ification you prefer. ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@FreeBSD.org, mwlucas@BlackHelicopters.org http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons Absolute BSD: http://www.AbsoluteBSD.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 20 12:38:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D352037B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6668343E70 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:38:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id ABK689E; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:38:20 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:49:40 -0700 Received: from balderdash.acuson.com (dhcp-46-173.acuson.com [157.226.46.173]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id RJF84F56; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:58:51 -0700 From: Johnson David To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Organization: Acuson Subject: Re: Your Chasing Linux article dated August 9th Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:57:30 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 References: <000601c24751$399e6480$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> In-Reply-To: <000601c24751$399e6480$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200208201057.30791.djohnson@acuson.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday 19 August 2002 12:22 am, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > This is because Linux is pseudo-commercial. A more accurate statement > would be that FreeBSD lacks the polish found in leading commercial > Linux distros, because that is exactly what RedHat is - it's a > commercialized version of Linux. (and RedHat is the leading Linux distro) Comparing FreeBSD to the "non-commercial" Linuxes, like Debian, Slackware and Gentoo, it's clear to me that FreeBSD is easier to install, while administration and updating is at least marginally easier. Too many (nearly all) commercial Linuxes think that ease of use means treating all users like newbies. They rarely take into account the fact that no one ever remains a newbie. The distros that most people say are the easiest are the ones that give me the most frustration. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 20 14:16: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81DE337B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C984343E65 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:16:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yid@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 3050 invoked by uid 417); 20 Aug 2002 21:16:02 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2002 21:16:02 -0000 Received: from unknown ([216.194.5.208]) (AUTH: LOGIN yid@softhome.net) by softhome.net with esmtp; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:15:25 -0600 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:17:49 -0400 From: Joshua Lee To: Terry Lambert Cc: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? Message-Id: <20020820171749.234e03ab.yid@softhome.net> In-Reply-To: <3D62377E.88586FAB@mindspring.com> References: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3D616E82.FC89DA05@mindspring.com> <20020820115836.GB98478@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3D62377E.88586FAB@mindspring.com> Organization: Plan B Software Labs X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.1claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.6) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:35:10 -0700 Terry Lambert wrote: > The recent move with United Linux, and now this "counterstrike" > with "LSB certification" (which I think is definitely intended > as return fire) Two of the distributions that were certified LSB complient are part of United Linux, so if it's return fire they're shooting themselves in the foot. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 20 15:51: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C177637B400; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A6DC43E3B; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:51:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0108.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.108] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17hHps-0004mm-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:50:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3D62C794.E859D047@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:49:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Lucas Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? References: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020820014945.GB53494@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020820095718.A20131@blackhelicopters.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Michael Lucas wrote: > One other comment here, to drag this back to *FreeBSD* advocacy: > > Many of the so-called distros out there now are actually based on one > of the big distros, with only one or two changes. These distros die > after a release or two. (Admittedly, some of these 1-2 changes can be > quite large, i.e., using KDE instead of GNOME.) > > We do something very analagous by providing the ability for people to > build their own custom releases. > > If anything, the roll-your-own-distro market might be a prime > candidate for conversion to FreeBSD. We provide a "distro-building > toolchain," where you can change anything you like and build a custom > FreeBSD, completely from source, with whatever level of GPL-ification > you prefer. This is not entirely accurate. The FreeBSD "distro-building toolchain" is really lacking for embedded systems use. Setting aside the "crunched" binaries, it should be technically possible to build PicoBSD, "FreeBSD Live" and similar distributions withous a significant set of changes. Right now, though, you have to do this by patching against source files, rathering than using substitute code. This makes it very hard to do this sort of thing and track FreeBSD -STABLE or -SECURITY (or whatever you decide on) by tag, and the need to use patches means that your code ends up having to be delta'ed against a particular version. I've provided patches to the release building process for using your own config file instead of GENERIC (as one example) which were not incorporated into the main source tree. Now even though the benefit would have been slight, and for the most part, it would have made zero difference to the main line FreeBSD users, the patches were not committed. E.g.: It could be made a lot easier to do this sort of thing than it is. The main problem here is that by using deltas (in this case, a delta against the GENERIC config file which has to be patched prior to the chroot build as part of the "make release") means that the patches you end up with have to apply cleanly against the sources. This rather defeats the purpose, since it's not likely to move forward from version to version without a lot of work. Much better to use your own files. In the limit, from the perspective of an embedded system, it's worthwhile to be able to actually drag the kernel sources out of a completely seperate CVS repository during the "make release" process. I haven't done patches for that, yet: if "KERNCONF" is "too evil", it's unlikely such patches would pass muster, too. 8-(. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 20 17:18:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F1937B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34BFA43E65 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:18:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0108.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.108] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17hJCb-0001r3-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:18:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3D62DC0B.EB16FF12@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:17:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joshua Lee Cc: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? References: <20020819155109.GC89852@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3D616E82.FC89DA05@mindspring.com> <20020820115836.GB98478@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3D62377E.88586FAB@mindspring.com> <20020820171749.234e03ab.yid@softhome.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joshua Lee wrote: > On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:35:10 -0700 > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > The recent move with United Linux, and now this "counterstrike" > > with "LSB certification" (which I think is definitely intended > > as return fire) > > Two of the distributions that were certified LSB complient are part of > United Linux, so if it's return fire they're shooting themselves in the foot. Return fire by RedHat. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Aug 20 19:10:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B777F37B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web11808.mail.yahoo.com (web11808.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 061C343E75 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:10:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20020821021026.41265.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.96.5] by web11808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:10:26 PDT Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:10:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Haikal Saadh Reply-To: haikal@subdimension.com Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? To: Michael Lucas , Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020820095718.A20131@blackhelicopters.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --- Michael Lucas wrote: > On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 11:19:45AM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey > wrote: > > My impression is that the Linux distros are consolidating, not > > diversifying. My guess is that in a few years there will only be > two > > or three serious contenders. Some Linux people say that's the > case > > today. Certainly people are beginning to realise the > disadvantages of > > the current plethora of distros. > > One other comment here, to drag this back to *FreeBSD* advocacy: > > Many of the so-called distros out there now are actually based on > one > of the big distros, with only one or two changes. These distros > die > after a release or two. (Admittedly, some of these 1-2 changes can > be > quite large, i.e., using KDE instead of GNOME.) > > We do something very analagous by providing the ability for people > to > build their own custom releases. > > If anything, the roll-your-own-distro market might be a prime > candidate for conversion to FreeBSD. We provide a "distro-building > toolchain," where you can change anything you like and build a > custom > FreeBSD, completely from source, with whatever level of > GPL-ification > you prefer. > If only I could agree on that...I tried to roll my own cd a while back, but gave up when I found out that I had to get a Gig-ish from CVS (Handbook mentions that)! All i wanted was a cd with freebsd built from the dource i had, and with the packages/ports I already had, but nah. left cvsup running overnight on my dialup and it still wasn't done, so nah. Shame, that. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 21 7: 6:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA7B637B4CB for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70BF643E70 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:06:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: from blackhelicopters.org (mwlucas@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blackhelicopters.org (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g7LE6dcC026250; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:06:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) id g7LE6d4f026249; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:06:39 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: haikal@subdimension.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? Message-ID: <20020821100639.A26175@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20020820095718.A20131@blackhelicopters.org> <20020821021026.41265.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020821021026.41265.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>; from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com on Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 07:10:26PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [[cc trimmed so people don't see this repeatedly]] On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 07:10:26PM -0700, Haikal Saadh wrote: > If only I could agree on that...I tried to roll my own cd a while > back, but gave up when I found out that I had to get a Gig-ish from > CVS (Handbook mentions that)! > All i wanted was a cd with freebsd built from the dource i had, and > with the packages/ports I already had, but nah. left cvsup running > overnight on my dialup and it still wasn't done, so nah. Shame, that. Yes, building a release takes a lot of disk space and bandwidth. I would suggest that building your own Linux distribution with the same features that FreeBSD has would require a similar amount of space, however. ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@FreeBSD.org, mwlucas@BlackHelicopters.org http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons Absolute BSD: http://www.AbsoluteBSD.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Aug 21 12:31:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C87F37B400 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com (bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com [208.42.156.104]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E317943E97 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:31:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hawkeyd@visi.com) Received: from sheol.localdomain (hawkeyd-fw.dsl.visi.com [208.42.101.193]) by bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A0314A60; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:31:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from hawkeyd@localhost) by sheol.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g7LJVGE02081; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:31:16 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from hawkeyd) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:31:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200208211931.g7LJVGE02081@sheol.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0c.0 Reply-To: hawkeyd@visi.com Organization: if (!FIFO) if (!LIFO) break; References: <20020819155109.GC89852_dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org@ns.sol.net> In-Reply-To: <20020819155109.GC89852_dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org@ns.sol.net> From: hawkeyd@visi.com (D J Hawkey Jr) Subject: Re: Has the foretold fragmentation of Linux begun? X-Original-Newsgroups: sol.lists.freebsd.advocacy To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <20020819155109.GC89852_dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org@ns.sol.net>, jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org writes: > > I think it's interesting that we have Red Hat, United Linux (with the > LSB stamp?), and now Sun rolling their own. > > It seems that this was part of the plan all along of these big > corporations, and this could lead to the exact same kind of > fragmentation that brought down Unix in the first place. Actually, I've long harbored the thought that for Linux to be _really_ perceived as a viable OS in the corporate world, there would first have to be one True Linux(tm). The LSB, and maybe United Linux, re-enforces my position. On the one hand, a "standard" that I believe must be adhered to (whether it be the LSB, or another, doesn't really matter). On the other, a merger of distributions. Extrapolating, there will be a wider "standard" encompassing more than just the filesystem, and yet more merging (and/ or dropping) of distributions. I rather think it funny, if not, ironic, as this will be a big blow to that vocal group of Linux zealots who deride FreeBSD for it's "structured" development model. There will have to be a group that decides these standards, as well as police and enforce them (think "Core"). There will be a trusted group to govern what actually makes it into the "source tree" (think "Committers"). And there will be One True Source - this is already coming into being, what with Linus adopting the use of a CVS-style repository. Or not. If not, I think Linux will be relegated to the less-than- critical servers of some businesses, and won't go much further than that. If so, Linux's development model will be something closely resembling that which FreeBSD has been for quite some time now. And it will be a better OS than the current development model (or lack thereof?) will allow. > Will the GPL help, hinder, or be irrelevant to prevent this? I think it will be irrelevant to your question, but I think it will be a hinderance to wider adoption by the corporate world. The [L]GPL already has, from what I've read. > NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. > jm Just my two-cents' worth, Dave -- Windows: "Where do you want to go today?" Linux: "Where do you want to go tomorrow?" FreeBSD: "Are you guys coming, or what?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message