From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 11 8: 7: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza.acecape.com [66.114.74.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95EE637B402 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g1BG6sJ30541 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:06:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:09:23 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Intranet screenshots. Message-ID: <20020211110318.A55959-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone could share screen shot of their intranet? I have been pushing with a small team of people to create one, FreeBSD powered of course, and many of our employees have NEVER seen an Intranet so there is some confusion as to what should be in it. I am pushing for something highly functional while some other people are pushing for a more "informative" site. My only exposure to an intranet was at a major bank and it was very functional. For instance they had a cafeteria in the building and on the first page of the intranet they would have the menu highlights. The Intranet was always popular about lunch time. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 11 10:53:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from catalyst.sasknow.net (catalyst.sasknow.net [207.195.92.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09FF537B404 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by catalyst.sasknow.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1BIscV34742; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:54:39 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) X-Authentication-Warning: catalyst.sasknow.net: ryan owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:54:38 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson X-X-Sender: ryan@catalyst.sasknow.net To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Intranet screenshots. In-Reply-To: <20020211110318.A55959-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: <20020211123310.A30320-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes wrote to FreeBSD Chat List: > Anyone could share screen shot of their intranet? > I have been pushing with a small team of people to create one, FreeBSD > powered of course, and many of our employees have NEVER seen an Intranet > so there is some confusion as to what should be in it. > > I am pushing for something highly functional while some other people > are pushing for a more "informative" site. I guess it depends on what type of organization this is for. Ours has all of our documentation: policy manuals, internal security policy, training manuals, address database, etc... as well as some huge functional bits that allow us to manage accounts, obtain customer/ usage statistics, etc. Our accounting entry system is also shared among a network of several workstations. I worked for a large manufacturing company that shared an intranet with several North American offices across a huge VPN. They had an internal email system, tons of documentation, news articles, reports, training (some of it interactive), and, yes, cafeteria specials :-) All of it used proprietary software without touching a web browser. Educational institutions typically have some of the more sophisticated (but often disjoint) intranets, with tons of information, and very functional bits like course resources, bulletin boards, etc. In my younger days, I managed a fuelling station. Our intranet consisted of the occasional bit of policy documented with a note pinned to a cork board in the back room (my favorite was "Sweep first, *THEN* mop"). Communication was enhanced by hiring giddy teenagers who loved to gossip in between shifts. Our cafeteria consisted of one ice cream freezer, half a dozen confectionery items, and a microwave, so employees usually ordered delivery. As such, our more motivated employees maintained a database of fast food telephone numbers on an index card not-so-discreetly taped to the drawer of the cash register. Ahh... the bad old days. :-) That being said, I'll re-iterate my "depends"... This company is an IT company, and as such, have IT solutions for everything, and have very different requirements than your bank, etc. Maybe not much help, but it is fun to reminisce. :-) - Ryan > My only exposure to an intranet was at a major bank and it was very > functional. For instance they had a cafeteria in the building and on the > first page of the intranet they would have the menu highlights. The > Intranet was always popular about lunch time. :-) > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Ryan Thompson Network Administrator, Accounts SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E - Saskatoon, SK - S7H 0W2 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-664-1161 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 12 17: 0:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D46037B42C for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from chip.wiegand.org [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id AAFE5D900C6; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:01:50 -0800 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:00:06 +0000 From: Chip Wiegand To: freebsd-chat Subject: file types Message-Id: <20020212170006.1d2f9c8a.chip@wiegand.org> Organization: Alternative Operating Systems X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am reading a unix book - Using Unix 3rd Ed by Kuo - and have a question regarding file types. He mentions the two main types of block device files are character and block. He also mentions that block devices are generally such things as hard drives, cd drives, etc. These file name start with a b, according to the text. I look at my /dev directory and don't see anything with a b, they all start with a c, indicating they are character devices, this includes all my ad0 and ad1 file names. crw-r----- 2 root operator 116, 0x00020002 Feb 9 13:10 ad0s1 crw-r----- 2 root operator 116, 0x00020000 Feb 9 13:10 ad0s1a Any ideas why this is? Shouldn't these be brw-r-----? (hope this is okay on chat, didn't think it was important enough for -questions)-- Chip W www.wiegand.org chip@wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 12 17:21:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727C437B405 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:21:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id D05945341; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:21:27 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Chip Wiegand Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: file types References: <20020212170006.1d2f9c8a.chip@wiegand.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Feb 2002 02:21:27 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20020212170006.1d2f9c8a.chip@wiegand.org> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Wiegand writes: > I am reading a unix book - Using Unix 3rd Ed by Kuo - and have a > question regarding file types. He mentions the two main types of block > device files are character and block. FreeBSD doesn't have user-visible block devices. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 13 1:12:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF4637B405 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0136.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.136] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16avT5-0000zf-00; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:12:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3C6A2E05.3EEEA6DA@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:12:37 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Wiegand Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: file types References: <20020212170006.1d2f9c8a.chip@wiegand.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Wiegand writes: > I am reading a unix book - Using Unix 3rd Ed by Kuo - and have a > question regarding file types. He mentions the two main types of block > device files are character and block. FreeBSD doesn't have block devices. If you are using one of the millions of software packages from the Internet, you will have to modify it to use device aligned buffer I/O, effectively duplicating the block device functionality in each and every user space program instead. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 13 1:40:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C4BC37B404 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:40:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.33] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1D9eLg19980; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:40:21 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C6A2E05.3EEEA6DA@mindspring.com> References: <20020212170006.1d2f9c8a.chip@wiegand.org> <3C6A2E05.3EEEA6DA@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Get yourself a real mail client -- try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outl Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:40:06 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Chip Wiegand From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: file types Cc: freebsd-chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:12 AM -0800 2002/02/13, Terry Lambert wrote: > FreeBSD doesn't have block devices. I remember that this changed recently. However, I don't recall ever hearing a good, understandable explanation as to why. Do you have any, or know of any URLs where such could be found? > If you are using one of the millions of software packages > from the Internet, you will have to modify it to use device > aligned buffer I/O, effectively duplicating the block > device functionality in each and every user space program > instead. I'm wondering why pseudo-block devices weren't created that would effectively automatically do this on top of the appropriate character device for applications that expect this kind of behaviour. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 13 1:51:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24D637B41A for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0136.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.136] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16aw4S-0002cw-00; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:51:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3C6A3712.FE23D234@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:51:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Chip Wiegand , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: file types References: <20020212170006.1d2f9c8a.chip@wiegand.org> <3C6A2E05.3EEEA6DA@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:12 AM -0800 2002/02/13, Terry Lambert wrote: > > FreeBSD doesn't have block devices. > > I remember that this changed recently. However, I don't recall > ever hearing a good, understandable explanation as to why. Do you > have any, or know of any URLs where such could be found? Ask PHK. It was my strong opinion that they would be needed to port over the Apple UDF FS code; that objection has been overridden by someone doing the necessary work to wedge UDF on top of a character driver (no idea how demand paging from non-aligned atomic regions is handled in the UDF/ISOFS switch; I'd have to buy hardware to look at the code in any meaningful way). > > If you are using one of the millions of software packages > > from the Internet, you will have to modify it to use device > > aligned buffer I/O, effectively duplicating the block > > device functionality in each and every user space program > > instead. > > I'm wondering why pseudo-block devices weren't created that would > effectively automatically do this on top of the appropriate character > device for applications that expect this kind of behaviour. Ask PHK. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 13 11:25:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9236437B402 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 16b51j-000IKe-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:25:11 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1DJPAb46244 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:25:10 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:25:10 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? Message-ID: <20020213192510.A46224@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Since VM has been around for quite a while, and since the basic algorithms for task scheduling, page swapping, critical sections and so on have been around for a while as well as basic computer sci theory, what leads to the breakthrough new designs we see in BSD? Other than SMP? jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 13 15:57:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4111F37B405 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:57:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9BF2BD6E; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:57:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02662; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:57:45 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1DNwPn24075; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:58:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? References: <20020213192510.A46224@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 13 Feb 2002 15:58:25 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020213192510.A46224@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick writes: > Since VM has been around for quite a while, and since the basic > algorithms for task scheduling, page swapping, critical sections and so > on have been around for a while as well as basic computer sci theory, > what leads to the breakthrough new designs we see in BSD? Other than > SMP? If I understand the question, I'll guess that a developer sees an existing design that looks poor, either by pure reason or by its ugliness, or by comparision of it's design or performance with a similarly-purposed design in another OS or in some research report. For example, if I was a kernel hacker, I might have done something with a report I read on a school project in which the guy had a compiler inside his kernel and had it compile optimised code as needed. I didn't see or don't remember the particular techniques he used, but I suppose it was able to avoid indirect addressing or something. He had several techniques, as I recall. He reported very significant speed-ups. (But then, I'd guess that most bottlenecks are not hampered by inefficient code as much as by inefficient algorithms, but I'd like to read his report again.) Sadly, I lost the URL a couple of years ago and a quick google didn't find it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 13 20:58:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F9F37B402 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0463.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.208] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16bDyA-0000Oj-00; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:58:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3C6B43D3.39B7011F@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:57:55 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? References: <20020213192510.A46224@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > Since VM has been around for quite a while, and since the basic > algorithms for task scheduling, page swapping, critical sections and so > on have been around for a while as well as basic computer sci theory, > what leads to the breakthrough new designs we see in BSD? Other than > SMP? Most of the "breakthrough" designs we see happening in BSD today have been discussed in CS literature in the academic world at least 10-12 years ago. Some of the "breakthroughs" are "only" 5 or 6 years old. The polling code Luigi did, for example, was beased on a Jaff Mogul paper from 1991. My own code for LRP was based on a paper from Rice University by Mohit Aron's group, and is 6 years old. It took since FreeBSD 2.2 to integrate an implementation of FACK/SACK into FreeBSD; that's 8 years. Most cutting edge CS work occurs in academia, in very small groups, with no more than 4 people participating, and usually, a single idealist leading the group. Other things which appear to be "breakthroughs" are just concessions to hardware tradeoffs that are true today that weren't true when the original implementations were first deployed (e.g. relative cost of disk seeks vs. speed on tracks, relative costs of main memory access vs. cache access, etc.). Revisiting these tradeoffs is normal and doesn't really count as "breakthrough" in my book. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 14 4:54:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563A137B402 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 04:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 16bLOl-00018E-00; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:54:03 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1ECs3O52223; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:54:03 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:54:03 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? Message-ID: <20020214125402.A52045@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020213192510.A46224@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3C6B43D3.39B7011F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3C6B43D3.39B7011F@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 08:57:55PM -0800 X-Scanner: exiscan *16bLOl-00018E-00*pHCMEDXHv/E* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | Most cutting edge CS work occurs in academia, in very | small groups, with no more than 4 people participating, | and usually, a single idealist leading the group. That's what I've heard as well. I love the fact that IPv6 is developed on open source operating systems, and yet will hardly be accepted in the networking world until Windows supports it. | Other things which appear to be "breakthroughs" are just | concessions to hardware tradeoffs that are true today | that weren't true when the original implementations were | first deployed (e.g. relative cost of disk seeks vs. | speed on tracks, relative costs of main memory access vs. | cache access, etc.). Revisiting these tradeoffs is normal | and doesn't really count as "breakthrough" in my book. As I was writing my first email, I was wondering if this might describe some of the scenarios. I was especially thinking of the VM and FFS changes recently. It seems to me the new self-tuning ability of BSD's operating parameters would make it quite adaptable to different hardware environments. Wow. I really love this OS. :-) jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 14 10:52:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C46B37B405 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1EIp9s79285; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:51:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:51:09 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: j mckitrick Cc: Terry Lambert , Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? In-Reply-To: <20020214125402.A52045@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: <20020214101412.C21734-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, j mckitrick wrote: > | Most cutting edge CS work occurs in academia, in very > | small groups, with no more than 4 people participating, > | and usually, a single idealist leading the group. > > That's what I've heard as well. I love the fact that IPv6 is developed > on open source operating systems, and yet will hardly be accepted in the > networking world until Windows supports it. IPv6 is not a good example of "single idealist" design and developing. v6 is definately a commitee design, and it kind of shows. the IPng workgroup didget a few things right with the acceptance of v6, but migrating to it is still not easy. Most "this is nifty" developments happen in Free OSs, since there's little corparate pressure to support or develop something new, or to let their in-house projects out. with the release of XP, though, MS has also given out broad range of potential v6 users (this is what i've been given to understand, i've not had the motivation or spare hardware to check this out and verify it). -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 14 11: 5:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74CE137B405 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:05:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 16bRCA-0008Ri-00; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:05:26 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1EJ5MF54386; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:05:22 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:05:22 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? Message-ID: <20020214190521.A54361@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020214125402.A52045@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020214101412.C21734-100000@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20020214101412.C21734-100000@localhost>; from jan@caustic.org on Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 10:51:09AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | with the release of XP, though, MS has also given out broad range of | potential v6 users (this is what i've been given to understand, i've not | had the motivation or spare hardware to check this out and verify it). I wonder if this could be part of the conspiracy theory that once XP is well-circulated, MS will attempt to force net users into a new 'safe and secure' IP protocol that only MS machines will support. Rumor has it this 'safe' protocol might already be ready and waiting inside XP or perhaps SP1. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 14 11:51: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0424D37B402 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:50:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1EJnf479657; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:49:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:49:41 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: IPv6 and MS (was Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve?) In-Reply-To: <20020214190521.A54361@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: <20020214110654.Y21734-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, j mckitrick wrote: > I wonder if this could be part of the conspiracy theory that once XP is > well-circulated, MS will attempt to force net users into a new 'safe and > secure' IP protocol that only MS machines will support. Rumor has it > this 'safe' protocol might already be ready and waiting inside XP or > perhaps SP1. MS's system was: extend and control. first, they would extend the functions of a protocol, then take that protocol and make sure their implementation broke with the standard. with their domination of the installed OS base, this would give them default control of any and all communication protocols. at least, in theory this is what should happen. but to happen, this would require that both the client and server have the same extentions. as was shown by the MS extentions to kerberos. MS has given us one addition to IPv6, a protocol called shipworm: http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ngtrans-shipworm-04.txt while this is not really an extention to IPv6 in the line of their kerberos extentions, it does show the interest MS has in v6. despite MS' reputation for being a multiarmed octopus, i doubt that they would try to exchange their current "compatable setup" with a custom protocol. it would fit in with the early MSN service (which wasn't all that unlike CompuServe, Prodigy, or AOL in the use of internal protocols) to do this. so far, they have invested in IPv6 becoming more common. which, due to the ubiquious nature of Windows, it will be. besides, with IPSec being fairly standard in v6, why wouldn't that become the "more secure" protocol? i don't think it would be that much of an extention to make sure that the certificates for any "non-.NET/MS/IIS/VeriSign" IDd system would not be exchanged or recognised by the IPSec stack. of course, it would probably lead to another set of lawsuits for anticompeditive practices. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 14 12:43:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc-ugarte.research.att.com (H-135-207-23-230.research.att.com [135.207.23.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E68637B400 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:43:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cau@localhost) by pc-ugarte.research.att.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id g1EKhFs01178; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:43:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15468.8546.298786.500178@pc-ugarte.research.att.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:43:14 -0500 From: Carlos Ugarte To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? In-Reply-To: References: <20020213192510.A46224@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.99 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen writes: > > For example, if I was a kernel hacker, I might have done something with > a report I read on a school project in which the guy had a compiler > inside his kernel and had it compile optimised code as needed. I didn't > see or don't remember the particular techniques he used, but I suppose > it was able to avoid indirect addressing or something. He had several > techniques, as I recall. He reported very significant speed-ups. (But > then, I'd guess that most bottlenecks are not hampered by inefficient > code as much as by inefficient algorithms, but I'd like to read his > report again.) Sadly, I lost the URL a couple of years ago and a quick > google didn't find it. That sounds like Henry Massalin's dissertation work on the Synthesis kernel (early 90s at Columbia University). If I remember correctly it was implemented using 68000 assembly code ("a fast prototyping language"); it would take frequently called kernel functions and optimize them (replace them with code specialized for that type of invocation). You took a hit for generating new code, but the cost was relatively low and the optimized call was used so often that overall performance improved. If this wasn't it, there are a few other dynamic/run-time code generation projects around; Dawson Engler did some work on these in the mid 90s while he was still at MIT. More generally, my impression is the same as that posted by Terry. Most cutting edge research is done by small groups in experimental environments. It takes a while for their work to propagate to more popular systems. For example, I believe the KSE work is based in part on the work done at the University of Washington in the early 90s ("Scheduler Activations"). Another example, found on an article posted today on cnn.com - Microsoft's Farsite system (can't tell if it's expected in 2006 or in ten years) will make use of "experimental operating system technology called Byzantine fault-tolerant protocols". Though work on such protocols continues even today, Byzantine faults were first identified some 20 years ago. On a different note, there seems to be less emphasis on building new research systems from scratch; it is more and more common to see the experimental environments I mentioned above make use of systems such as FreeBSD and Linux (NetBSD, OpenBSD and the various Microsoft products aren't as prominent). In these cases the "propagation lag" can be cut substantially, if the project leads are aware of the research and deem it worthy of being merged into the official tree. If you're interested in seeing what kind of stuff is considered "cutting edge research" you might look for the proceedings of various conferences and workshops. SOSP, OSDI, USENIX (Technical) and HotOS would be the ones I'd look at, though there are many others. Carlos A. Ugarte cau@cs.arizona.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 14 16:15:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D2137B405 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0453.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.198] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16bW24-00015e-00; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:15:20 -0800 Message-ID: <3C6C530E.B391A3FB@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:15:10 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carlos Ugarte Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? References: <20020213192510.A46224@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15468.8546.298786.500178@pc-ugarte.research.att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Carlos Ugarte wrote: [ ... compiler stuff ... ] [ ... "Synthesis"... ] [ ...... ] Heh. My first thought was the partial linking of shared objects in the University of Utah compiler work, which cached prelinked shared objects for reuse; among other things, this makes the relocation table, which is normally reinstanced for each program linked with a shared library, a sharable resource. The current work has grown into "Khazana", which is (mostly) unrelated: http://www.cs.utah.edu/khazana/ The original stuff was also early 1990's. 8-). > More generally, my impression is the same as that posted by Terry. > Most cutting edge research is done by small groups in experimental > environments. It takes a while for their work to propagate to more > popular systems. For example, I believe the KSE work is based in part > on the work done at the University of Washington in the early 90s > ("Scheduler Activations"). The current implementation is, yes. The original idea was to do some even more basic work than that, but it devolved to an activations implementation when it came time to cut code. The original approach, async call gates, would have required losing most compatability with traditional UNIX systems, with the POSIX interface becoming a library on top of the async interface; it would not have been that big a deal, though: it would have been possible to implement using an additional system call parameter, whose value was NULL for sync calls. Ironically, the idea comes out of some DECWRL work that found its way into DEC OSs of the late 70s/early 80s. > Another example, found on an article posted today on cnn.com - > Microsoft's Farsite system (can't tell if it's expected in 2006 or in > ten years) will make use of "experimental operating system technology > called Byzantine fault-tolerant protocols". Though work on such > protocols continues even today, Byzantine faults were first identified > some 20 years ago. Yep. You should have been at Novell back in 1994, when Drew Major "invented" virtual memory in NetWare. 8-) 8-). The cycle time for ideas to distribution in code is very long. The LRP stuff I did at ClickArray was fairly cutting edge: the Rice University implementation was fragile, and did not include a lot of the work necessary to be able to use the code in a commercial project. Their newer stuff was a bit more advanced, but contained distribution because of the terrible license. Both sets of code defined a new protocol family under which an alternate TCP and IP stack executed, so that you could run the old and new code in parallel, but that made the code doubly useless for real work. The bottom line is that it usually takes a *long* time for research to make it into deployment. It's amusing how much the "Khazana" idea is finding footing (it's intended as "An Infrastructure for Building Distributed Services", which falls right in with the Microsoft Byzantine work). Actually, since Microsoft just "acquired" Ajaya Chitturi from the University of Utah following graduation, that's not incredibly surprising. 8-). > On a different note, there seems to be less emphasis on building new > research systems from scratch; it is more and more common to see the > experimental environments I mentioned above make use of systems such > as FreeBSD and Linux (NetBSD, OpenBSD and the various Microsoft > products aren't as prominent). It's true that "free" OSs are being used more often as a research platform; PSC and Rice tend to use FreeBSD and NetBSD a lot, and other useful work tends to be BSD based these days (IPv6 out of KAME via a relationship through the University of Tokyo, etc.). There's a big danger, though, in using oddly licensed code. For example, research done in the Linux kernel will find itself under the GPL, and will be unlikely to be incorporated in the next generation of Cisco routers, at least without a rewrite from scratch. Such rewrites have historically found themselves to be non-interoperable (c.v. the revisions that the Linux TCP/IP stack has had to fight its way through to find full interoperability). > In these cases the "propagation lag" > can be cut substantially, if the project leads are aware of the > research and deem it worthy of being merged into the official tree. Yes and no. It takes incredible enlightenment to cut the *right* "propagation lag", rather than the *wrong*. For example, the Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center out of Carnegie Mellon University has a *vastly* superior SACK/FACK implementation, and has another innovation that is related to that called "Rate Halving": http://www.psc.edu/networking/rate_halving.html Yet FreeBSD integrated code derived from other sources which was clearly inferior, just to "keep up with the Joneses". In another example, we have the Ganger/Patt work on Soft Updates; their "Appendix A" of their paper was a System V implementation with the System V derived code stripped out. At Artisoft, back in 1995, we (mostly Matt Day) ported it to Windows, as part of a project to move the Heidemann stacking FS framework to Windows (initially, we did the FFS/UFS port to get around the FAT limitations, and then were FUD'ed out of business by Microsoft by the promise of VFAT32, which was not delivered for another two years, while we could have had an NTFS and NFS implemenetation for Windows within the same framework). The Soft updates code in the Ganger/Patt paper was ground breaking work: it leapfrogged the patented DOW (Delayed Ordered Writes) USL technology of 1993/1994, but the BSD implementation is, effectively, just a rigorous port/rewrite of the Appendix A code. It fails to take into account the propagation of dependency edges between stacking layers, so it's practically useless in a stacking environment since it can't, for example, export a transactioning interface to user space, and you can't add additional edge/resolver pairs in order to support non-FFS/UFS file systems, or to support e.g. dependencey reoslution between underlying FFS/UFS for a stacked cryptographic layer on top. Like the Rice University LRP code, it's more of a laboratory model, than a product. The "snapshots" code counts, in my book, as much more of an original work... but we see its origins in WAFL FS from Network Appliance, which has had the technology for a very long time now, to facilitate backups (in fact, snapshots were one of the original outgrowths of LFS technology, since they are almost naturally emergent as a result). So, frankly, I don't see the lag to implementation in usable systems decreasing in the Open Source projects, any more than it is decreasing in the commercial. > If you're interested in seeing what kind of stuff is considered > "cutting edge research" you might look for the proceedings of various > conferences and workshops. SOSP, OSDI, USENIX (Technical) and HotOS > would be the ones I'd look at, though there are many others. Or the Proceedings of the IEEE, or NEC Cite Seer: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/cs Or any of dozens of CS department research sites. The FS stacking in FreeBSD, for example, came out of work at UCLA's FICUS project, in 1991/1992. I'm often incredibly frustrated at the lack of familiarity with the literature in fields of endeavor, where people end up taking years to reinvent a wheel, and then expect to be lauded for it. This is nowhere more apparent than in the Open Source SMP work to date, where some of the approaches used were discarded by researchers as early as 1993 (e.g. the use of Interrupt "threads" for processing work on the top end as a result of a bottom end interrupt, which results in cache busting and increased overall latency; other examples abound). I think it would take a project a concerted effort to actually *be* cutting edge, as opposed to merely *looking* cutting edge, when compared to commercial counterparts, like Microsoft. Commercial products are most often *far* from cutting edge, since disruptive technologies tend to destabilize natural monopolies (or unnatural ones ;^)). Actually, there's a very good book on this subject: The Innovator's Dilemma Claytom M. Christensen HarperBusiness ISBN: 0-06-662069-4 I highly recommend it for any technologiust who finds themselves frustrated by business processes appearing to be there to stifle their work; in fact, many *are* there for *precisely* that reason, and the businesses with them are successful *because* of this, not *in spite of* it. At the very least it's a fascinating read, and at best, it will show you how to portray innovation as enlightened self interest, and give you a number of techniques to use in pursuit of it (but be warned: many of them involve getting spun off from your cushy company). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 14 16:37:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8941D37B405 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.244.104.20.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.244.104.20] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16bWN3-000335-00; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:37:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3C6C5824.4476B512@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:36:52 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? References: <20020214101412.C21734-100000@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > > | Most cutting edge CS work occurs in academia, in very > > | small groups, with no more than 4 people participating, > > | and usually, a single idealist leading the group. > > > > That's what I've heard as well. I love the fact that IPv6 is developed > > on open source operating systems, and yet will hardly be accepted in the > > networking world until Windows supports it. > > IPv6 is not a good example of "single idealist" design and developing. v6 > is definately a commitee design, and it kind of shows. the IPng workgroup > didget a few things right with the acceptance of v6, but migrating to it > is still not easy. The implementation is pretty far from committee, despite KAME and INRIA pooling forces to "committee it up". ;^). I think the main barrier to IPv6 is availability in a consumer OS. For a long time there was a "we'll support it, if you support it" starvation deadlock between the endpoint OS vendors, and the intermediate router vendors. I give IBM a bit of credit on this for supporting it on AIX before most other support was there, router, OS, or otherwise. Cisco has supported it on their routers since the loads released on 22 June 2001, and the laggard has been Microsoft from that day onward, even though they have had a "technology preview" version of the stack around for a while now. I think the primary motivation for them dragging their feet has been a "you scratch our back, we'll scratch yours" between them and the U.S. Government, which, for the most part, would just as soon not have a network infrastructure with strong cryptography built in. In fact, if we look at the "technology preview", and compare it with what actually ended up released with the IPv4 IPSEC code, and then, later, with Windows XP, we see that authentication and nonrepudiation made it, but ene-to-end encryption of content did not, and that there is still widespread dependence on SSL, instead. We also see that, even where SSL is used, it's mostly used for protection of plaintext passwords on form submits for HTTP based session establishment, but that the content thereafter is not encrypted. This is definitely true of HotMail and of Yahoo. In fact, we see that Yahoo defaults to non-encrypted authentication, as well, and you have to go out of your way to request it. > Most "this is nifty" developments happen in Free OSs, since there's little > corparate pressure to support or develop something new, or to let their > in-house projects out. I really disagree with this rationale; please see "The Innovator's Dilemma", referenced in my other post with full bibliographic information. While there is some truth to the idea that commercial products tend to lag behind the curve because of a product centric focus (indeed, I worrk about IBM research, which has been given the imperitive to bring one technology per laboratory to a product, every 6 months, suffering as a result of this focus), the Free OSs are just as resistant to change as the commercial ones. > with the release of XP, though, MS has also given out broad range of > potential v6 users (this is what i've been given to understand, i've not > had the motivation or spare hardware to check this out and verify it). I have XP on a machine I bought for $300 at Fry's the other day to install FreeBSD on (in fact, this was the genesis of my diatribe about installation an partitioning tools in FreeBSD last month); Windows XP does *not* come with IPv6 support integrated into it, at least as far as the networking "control panels" are able to discover. 8-(. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 14 16:45:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2DDD37B404 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.244.104.20.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.244.104.20] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16bWUx-0006Sj-00; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:45:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3C6C5A0D.3EE6500@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:45:01 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? References: <20020214125402.A52045@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020214101412.C21734-100000@localhost> <20020214190521.A54361@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > | with the release of XP, though, MS has also given out broad range of > | potential v6 users (this is what i've been given to understand, i've not > | had the motivation or spare hardware to check this out and verify it). > > I wonder if this could be part of the conspiracy theory that once XP is > well-circulated, MS will attempt to force net users into a new 'safe and > secure' IP protocol that only MS machines will support. Rumor has it > this 'safe' protocol might already be ready and waiting inside XP or > perhaps SP1. Unlikely; Cisco has only supported IPv6 everywhere since 22 Jun 2001; I can't imagine another protocol being jammed into Cisco quickly. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 14 18:47:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0BCA37B41A for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1F2kJZ81285; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:46:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:46:19 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: Terry Lambert Cc: j mckitrick , Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? In-Reply-To: <3C6C5824.4476B512@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020214164323.C21734-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > IPv6 is not a good example of "single idealist" design and developing. v6 > > is definately a commitee design, and it kind of shows. the IPng workgroup > > didget a few things right with the acceptance of v6, but migrating to it > > is still not easy. > > The implementation is pretty far from committee, despite > KAME and INRIA pooling forces to "committee it up". ;^). while i agree with the implementation having been driven by one person, or one small group of people. the RFC was designed on commitee. perhaps i should have been more clear? > I think the main barrier to IPv6 is availability in a > consumer OS. > > For a long time there was a "we'll support it, if you > support it" starvation deadlock between the endpoint OS > vendors, and the intermediate router vendors. > > I give IBM a bit of credit on this for supporting it on > AIX before most other support was there, router, OS, or > otherwise. > > Cisco has supported it on their routers since the loads > released on 22 June 2001, and the laggard has been > Microsoft from that day onward, even though they have > had a "technology preview" version of the stack around > for a while now. with cisco's change, of course, everyone else fell in line. where i work, we've been relying on KAME FreeBSD routers for a while now, while we're now switching to cisco and hitatchi for some bits, much of our network still consists of those early KAME machines. > I think the primary motivation for them dragging their > feet has been a "you scratch our back, we'll scratch > yours" between them and the U.S. Government, which, for > the most part, would just as soon not have a network > infrastructure with strong cryptography built in. > > In fact, if we look at the "technology preview", and > compare it with what actually ended up released with > the IPv4 IPSEC code, and then, later, with Windows XP, > we see that authentication and nonrepudiation made it, > but ene-to-end encryption of content did not, and that > there is still widespread dependence on SSL, instead. this may be due to the already widespread existence of SSL, vs any real conspiracy between the US government and MS. remember that MS tends to be lazy about their systems and protocols, and as an extention of this they may have simply viewed it as "unnessassary work" in implementing it. on the other hand, the use of auth/rep parts of IPSec allows MS to say "look, no one can fake packets from your machine. see how we've improved your personal safety on the internet?" > We also see that, even where SSL is used, it's mostly > used for protection of plaintext passwords on form > submits for HTTP based session establishment, but > that the content thereafter is not encrypted. This is > definitely true of HotMail and of Yahoo. In fact, we > see that Yahoo defaults to non-encrypted authentication, > as well, and you have to go out of your way to request > it. odd. once again, i see a nitch service for a pseudo-anonymous private email system. web mail, IPSec/FreeSWAN and potentially encrypted mail transactions (with the option of pgp) would be handy. someone's probably done this already. > > Most "this is nifty" developments happen in Free OSs, since there's little > > corparate pressure to support or develop something new, or to let their > > in-house projects out. > > I really disagree with this rationale; please see "The > Innovator's Dilemma", referenced in my other post with > full bibliographic information. will do. can you give me a date span to search? > While there is some truth to the idea that commercial > products tend to lag behind the curve because of a product > centric focus (indeed, I worrk about IBM research, which > has been given the imperitive to bring one technology per > laboratory to a product, every 6 months, suffering as a > result of this focus), the Free OSs are just as resistant > to change as the commercial ones. that's a bit evil.. but understandable from a corparate point of view. i guess i'm lucky in that i work for a Giant Evil Corparation That Is Intent on Taking Over The World, but doesn't feel the need to pressure the various labs to produce something marketable 2 times a year. > > with the release of XP, though, MS has also given out broad range of > > potential v6 users (this is what i've been given to understand, i've not > > had the motivation or spare hardware to check this out and verify it). > > I have XP on a machine I bought for $300 at Fry's the > other day to install FreeBSD on (in fact, this was the > genesis of my diatribe about installation an partitioning > tools in FreeBSD last month); Windows XP does *not* come > with IPv6 support integrated into it, at least as far as > the networking "control panels" are able to discover. 8-(. what version of XP? i guess this means i have to install and check anyway. it would not suprise me if they had everything command line as they did with win2k's v6 extention. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 14 18:59:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4963837B402 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB905BD22; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:59:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07963; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:59:41 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1F30LM24494; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:00:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? References: <20020213192510.A46224@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15468.8546.298786.500178@pc-ugarte.research.att.com> <3C6C530E.B391A3FB@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 14 Feb 2002 19:00:20 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C6C530E.B391A3FB@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 59 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Carlos Ugarte wrote: > [ ... compiler stuff ... ] > [ ... "Synthesis"... ] Interesting Wired article about Massalin from 1996 at http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/4.12/ffmassalin.html Apparently the quintessential eccentric genius. > I'm often incredibly frustrated at the lack of familiarity > with the literature in fields of endeavor, where people > end up taking years to reinvent a wheel, and then expect > to be lauded for it. ... > I highly recommend it for any technologiust who finds > themselves frustrated by business processes appearing to > be there to stifle their work; in fact, many *are* there > for *precisely* that reason, and the businesses with > them are successful *because* of this, not *in spite of* > it. I suspect that's fairly rare compared to the more natural causes of the problem. I suppose a lot of it comes down to defining what "their work" is. Many technologists define it differently than the people more directly responsible for the work. One SOP I've heard about along those lines is for engineering departments to hire as few PhDs as possible, because they are especially hard for management to see eye-to-eye with on what the work should be. Sadly, they are the one particularly apt to be familiar with the literature pertinent to the department. I worked with varied numerical algorithms for a very large company and often scratched my head about why they so often set people to inventing wheels that had been invented many times before, were being re-invented in rooms down the hall, were found in journals and books and the few on-staff experts, etc. To add insult and injury, they'd refuse to hire mathematicians without an engineering degree. And of course, the few people with any expertise in their field were kept busy preparing presentations for meetings, traveling, etc. I saw it as a problem which could be improved at many levels; in companies (at several levels) and in industries (especially tractable in governemt-related "industries"). The obvious problem is that most workers are busy working to deadlines and haven't the (paid) time to get familiar with outside information. One solution is to have roaming teams of experts, maybe even part time, that are given the time to develop their expertise without having to do grunt work 99% of the time. Of course that would take a strong management hand to have their expertise paid attention to. I think public money would be well spent in improvements in "library science"; in improving the "navigation" of the considerable information that is now available to the few able to do research in a big university technical library. They could pay universities to develop/gather and organize and publish information on a wide variety of subjects for easy public access. They essentially do that now, except for the vital "organize" and "easy" parts. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 14 19: 8:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF0C37B417 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:08:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.244.104.20.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.244.104.20] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16bYjB-00035y-00; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:08:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3C6C7B86.DB94396E@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:07:50 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? References: <20020214164323.C21734-100000@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > > I think the primary motivation for them dragging their > > feet has been a "you scratch our back, we'll scratch > > yours" between them and the U.S. Government, which, for > > the most part, would just as soon not have a network > > infrastructure with strong cryptography built in. > > > > In fact, if we look at the "technology preview", and > > compare it with what actually ended up released with > > the IPv4 IPSEC code, and then, later, with Windows XP, > > we see that authentication and nonrepudiation made it, > > but ene-to-end encryption of content did not, and that > > there is still widespread dependence on SSL, instead. > > this may be due to the already widespread existence of SSL, vs any real > conspiracy between the US government and MS. remember that MS tends to be > lazy about their systems and protocols, and as an extention of this they > may have simply viewed it as "unnessassary work" in implementing it. on > the other hand, the use of auth/rep parts of IPSec allows MS to say "look, > no one can fake packets from your machine. see how we've improved your > personal safety on the internet?" There's no real reason that they would have actually done real work to rip out code that was in the technology preview, for the release, is there? It's *more* work to take it out. Your argument might hold water, if they simply hadn't ever put the code in in the first place. > > We also see that, even where SSL is used, it's mostly > > used for protection of plaintext passwords on form > > submits for HTTP based session establishment, but > > that the content thereafter is not encrypted. This is > > definitely true of HotMail and of Yahoo. In fact, we > > see that Yahoo defaults to non-encrypted authentication, > > as well, and you have to go out of your way to request > > it. > > odd. once again, i see a nitch service for a pseudo-anonymous private > email system. web mail, IPSec/FreeSWAN and potentially encrypted mail > transactions (with the option of pgp) would be handy. someone's probably > done this already. The issue is the SSL overhead, which is much less of an issue in an IPSEC world than it is in an SSL world. > > I really disagree with this rationale; please see "The > > Innovator's Dilemma", referenced in my other post with > > full bibliographic information. > > will do. can you give me a date span to search? Today, posting immediately prior to the one to which you were replying. > > > with the release of XP, though, MS has also given out broad range of > > > potential v6 users (this is what i've been given to understand, i've not > > > had the motivation or spare hardware to check this out and verify it). > > > > I have XP on a machine I bought for $300 at Fry's the > > other day to install FreeBSD on (in fact, this was the > > genesis of my diatribe about installation an partitioning > > tools in FreeBSD last month); Windows XP does *not* come > > with IPv6 support integrated into it, at least as far as > > the networking "control panels" are able to discover. 8-(. > > what version of XP? The version that comes on new computers as of 2 weeks ago; according to the CDROM mask, it's "version 2002". > i guess this means i have to install and check anyway. it would not > suprise me if they had everything command line as they did with win2k's > v6 extention. The Windows 98 that I have the technology preview installed on has a protocol binding for IPv6 in the control panel, and a tabbed dialog for configuring it under "properties". I would be really surprised if the only way to access it were via the command line; one would at least expect to see it in the drivers or in the WinICE Windows kernel debugger I have loaded on the XP machine, along with the SDKs and DDKs for Windows XP for Visual Studio. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 14 23:54:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B465C37B402 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g1F7q8r85721; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:52:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01b401c1b5f5$ab941c30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "j mckitrick" Cc: References: <20020214125402.A52045@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020214101412.C21734-100000@localhost> <20020214190521.A54361@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:52:08 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I wonder if this could be part of the conspiracy > theory that once XP is well-circulated, MS will > attempt to force net users into a new 'safe and > secure' IP protocol that only MS machines will > support. Rumor has it this 'safe' protocol might > already be ready and waiting inside XP or perhaps > SP1. Amazing. Rumor has it that Proctor and Gamble has Satanist imagery in its logo, too, but as with this rumor, there is no truth to it. It's best not to spread rumors unless they are confirmed as facts. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 15 3:38:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C5537B400 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 03:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 16bggl-0005g8-00; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:38:03 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1FBc0x59766; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:38:00 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:38:00 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do basic OS principles continue to improve? Message-ID: <20020215113800.A59750@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020214125402.A52045@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020214101412.C21734-100000@localhost> <20020214190521.A54361@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <01b401c1b5f5$ab941c30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <01b401c1b5f5$ab941c30$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 08:52:08AM +0100 X-Scanner: exiscan *16bggl-0005g8-00*/e.RX.Ja4RM* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 08:52:08AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: | > I wonder if this could be part of the conspiracy | > theory that once XP is well-circulated, MS will | > attempt to force net users into a new 'safe and | > secure' IP protocol that only MS machines will | > support. Rumor has it this 'safe' protocol might | > already be ready and waiting inside XP or perhaps | > SP1. | | Amazing. | | Rumor has it that Proctor and Gamble has Satanist imagery in its logo, too, | but as with this rumor, there is no truth to it. | | It's best not to spread rumors unless they are confirmed as facts. Thank you, I appreciate that, but this isn't the same type of rumor. It's been suggested in print, and it's certainly well within the realm of the behavior we'd expect from the monopoly leveraging behemoth. Besides, if it really were true, wouldn't they love if no one talked about it until it was too late? jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 15 7: 4:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C16D937B404 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:04:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 0107375046 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:08:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:01:22 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been doing some prototyping of some number crunching programs on Python, and I found that Python is consistently slower on my laptop on FreeBSD than when I boot into Windows. For example, one program takes 800sec to run on FreeBSD and 300sec to run when I boot into Win2k. I am wondering if I should try setting -03 in make.conf and remake Python and Numpy. Right now I have just -O. I thought chat would be a good place for this since I know some Python hackers hang out here. BTW, my 1.8GHZ P4 at work runs the same program in 180sec on WinNT4. My laptop here is a 1Ghz P3 and I set -march=pentiumpro in make.conf. Thanks, Rob. ps. the program is available on my website below as somnec.py. -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 15 7:16:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D505637B404 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:16:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 102B65341; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:16:35 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rob Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows? References: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Feb 2002 16:16:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rob writes: > I've been doing some prototyping of some number crunching programs on > Python, and I found that Python is consistently slower on my laptop on > FreeBSD than when I boot into Windows. For example, one program takes > 800sec to run on FreeBSD and 300sec to run when I boot into Win2k. I am > wondering if I should try setting -03 in make.conf and remake Python and > Numpy. Right now I have just -O. My bet: crappy compiler. And building with -O3 will probably result in incorrect code, BTW. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 15 12:17:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.isg.siue.edu (mail.isg.siue.edu [146.163.5.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20CE337B417 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:17:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from WEBSHIELD1.isg.siue.edu (webshield1.isg.siue.edu [146.163.5.149]) by mail.isg.siue.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA15759 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:17:09 -0600 (CST) Received: FROM mail.isg.siue.edu BY WEBSHIELD1.isg.siue.edu ; Fri Feb 15 14:17:08 2002 -0600 Received: from client156-52.ll.siue.edu (client156-52.ll.siue.edu [146.163.156.52]) by mail.isg.siue.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA15656; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:17:05 -0600 (CST) Received: (from vcardon@localhost) by client156-52.ll.siue.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g1FLJDC11091; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:19:13 -0600 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:19:13 -0600 From: "Victor R. Cardona" To: Rob Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows? Message-ID: <20020215151913.A11038@client156-52.ll.siue.edu> References: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.12i In-Reply-To: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com>; from rob@pythonemproject.com on Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 07:01:22AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 07:01:22AM -0800, Rob wrote: > I've been doing some prototyping of some number crunching programs on > Python, and I found that Python is consistently slower on my laptop on > FreeBSD than when I boot into Windows. For example, one program takes > 800sec to run on FreeBSD and 300sec to run when I boot into Win2k. I am > wondering if I should try setting -03 in make.conf and remake Python and > Numpy. Right now I have just -O. You could temporarily set it to -O2. That will probably still produce correct code, and may improve performance a bit. -v --=20 Victor R. Cardona Powered by SuSE Linux 7.1 (i386) Professional GPG key ID E81B3A1C Key fingerprint =3D 0147 A234 99C3 F4C5 BC64 F501 654F DB49 E81B 3A1C --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8bXtRZU/bSegbOhwRAuHXAJ4/TnMo90PmgA/Rqm7M+4EZUMYPkgCbBgyV xsy70sTPMF40E//wNCNXt20= =45rI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 15 15: 1:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B2E37B41E for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.11.3/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1FN0xX42428; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:00:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:00:59 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: Rob Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows? In-Reply-To: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> Message-ID: <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> X-All-Your-Base: are belong to us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Rob wrote: > I've been doing some prototyping of some number crunching programs on > Python, and I found that Python is consistently slower on my laptop on > FreeBSD than when I boot into Windows. For example, one program takes > 800sec to run on FreeBSD and 300sec to run when I boot into Win2k. I am > wondering if I should try setting -03 in make.conf and remake Python and > Numpy. Right now I have just -O. Have you truss/ktrace'd your script? It might be getting bogged on gettimeofday() or memory allocation or unblocked reads/writes. > ps. the program is available on my website below as somnec.py. Whee, translated Fortran (gag) ... this could be suffering from converted code that does Evil Things(tm) in Python that Windows non-optimizations actually seem to help. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 15 18:23:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2338C37B402 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from stade.demon.co.uk ([158.152.29.164] helo=access2.hanley.stade.co.uk) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16buVw-000KUZ-0Y for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:23:48 +0000 Received: from titus.hanley.stade.co.uk (titus [192.168.1.5]) by access2.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1G2NfX12867 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:23:41 GMT (envelope-from aw1@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1G2N7K79624 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:23:07 GMT (envelope-from aw1) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:23:07 +0000 From: Adrian Wontroba To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Fortran (was Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?) Message-ID: <20020216022307.B79138@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk Mail-Followup-To: Adrian Wontroba , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" References: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu>; from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu on Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 03:00:59PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 1782 207338 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 03:00:59PM -0800, Doug White wrote: > Whee, translated Fortran (gag) ... "Real Programmers can write Fortran in any language." To quote from an old, and quite funny, list of things that Real Programmers do and don't do. It was my first language. Fortunately I was soon introduced to Algol. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 15 19:28:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D9937B402 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:28:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0100.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.100] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16bvWL-0004dv-00; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:28:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3C6DD1C7.4F3DEE06@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:28:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Rob , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows? References: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Rob writes: > > I've been doing some prototyping of some number crunching programs on > > Python, and I found that Python is consistently slower on my laptop on > > FreeBSD than when I boot into Windows. For example, one program takes > > 800sec to run on FreeBSD and 300sec to run when I boot into Win2k. I am > > wondering if I should try setting -03 in make.conf and remake Python and > > Numpy. Right now I have just -O. > > My bet: crappy compiler. And building with -O3 will probably result > in incorrect code, BTW. Check the clock rate that FreeBSD displays. In some power saving modes, which are normally only reset by interaction with Windows ACPI after the boot is complete, so are not reset by FreeBSD, the CPU clock rate is reduced to reduce power consumption. It could be that FreeBSD is, in fact, running the processor at a lower clock rate than Windows. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 15 19:54:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BCB9F37B404 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 024394576; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:53:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C6DD72E.A122AAF6@pythonemproject.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:51:11 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug White Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows? References: <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I translate the code into Python so I can read it and figure out how it works. Later, if possible, I vectorize the code with Numeric to get the big speedup. The SciPy package now has the Weave module which takes a block of Python code and runs it thru the Blitz++ compiler, generating a library. I've gotten Python to run as fast as C with that one for FDTD sims. Rob. Doug White wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Rob wrote: > > > I've been doing some prototyping of some number crunching programs on > > Python, and I found that Python is consistently slower on my laptop on > > FreeBSD than when I boot into Windows. For example, one program takes > > 800sec to run on FreeBSD and 300sec to run when I boot into Win2k. I am > > wondering if I should try setting -03 in make.conf and remake Python and > > Numpy. Right now I have just -O. > > Have you truss/ktrace'd your script? It might be getting bogged on > gettimeofday() or memory allocation or unblocked reads/writes. > > > ps. the program is available on my website below as somnec.py. > > Whee, translated Fortran (gag) ... this could be suffering from converted > code that does Evil Things(tm) in Python that Windows non-optimizations > actually seem to help. > > Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve > dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 15 19:56:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7879C37B402 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:56:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 0108305129; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:00:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C6DD7B8.377853BB@pythonemproject.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:53:28 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aw1@stade.co.uk Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Fortran (was Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?) References: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <20020216022307.B79138@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Adrian Wontroba wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 03:00:59PM -0800, Doug White wrote: > > Whee, translated Fortran (gag) ... > > "Real Programmers can write Fortran in any language." To quote from an > old, and quite funny, list of things that Real Programmers do and don't > do. > > It was my first language. Fortunately I was soon introduced to Algol. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Except for COMMON, EQUIVALENCE, and GO TO :) Rob. -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 15 19:57:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D822C37B41D for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:57:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 0108148502; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:01:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C6DD7E4.2F3DF868@pythonemproject.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:54:12 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows? References: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> <3C6DD1C7.4F3DEE06@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Rob writes: > > > I've been doing some prototyping of some number crunching programs on > > > Python, and I found that Python is consistently slower on my laptop on > > > FreeBSD than when I boot into Windows. For example, one program takes > > > 800sec to run on FreeBSD and 300sec to run when I boot into Win2k. I am > > > wondering if I should try setting -03 in make.conf and remake Python and > > > Numpy. Right now I have just -O. > > > > My bet: crappy compiler. And building with -O3 will probably result > > in incorrect code, BTW. > > Check the clock rate that FreeBSD displays. In some > power saving modes, which are normally only reset by > interaction with Windows ACPI after the boot is complete, > so are not reset by FreeBSD, the CPU clock rate is > reduced to reduce power consumption. It could be that > FreeBSD is, in fact, running the processor at a lower > clock rate than Windows. > > -- Terry Thanks, Terry. A very good point. I will check it out. Rob -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 16 7: 0: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B3C4137B400 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 07:00:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 024572588; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:59:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C6E733C.B7B6535C@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 06:57:01 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?/Terry is a genius :) References: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> <3C6DD1C7.4F3DEE06@mindspring.com> <3C6DD7E4.2F3DF868@pythonemproject.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rob wrote: > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > Rob writes: > > > > I've been doing some prototyping of some number crunching programs on > > > > Python, and I found that Python is consistently slower on my laptop on > > > > FreeBSD than when I boot into Windows. For example, one program takes > > > > 800sec to run on FreeBSD and 300sec to run when I boot into Win2k. I am > > > > wondering if I should try setting -03 in make.conf and remake Python and > > > > Numpy. Right now I have just -O. > > > > > > My bet: crappy compiler. And building with -O3 will probably result > > > in incorrect code, BTW. > > > > Check the clock rate that FreeBSD displays. In some > > power saving modes, which are normally only reset by > > interaction with Windows ACPI after the boot is complete, > > so are not reset by FreeBSD, the CPU clock rate is > > reduced to reduce power consumption. It could be that > > FreeBSD is, in fact, running the processor at a lower > > clock rate than Windows. > > > > -- Terry > > Thanks, Terry. A very good point. I will check it out. Rob > -- > The Numeric Python EM Project > > www.pythonemproject.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Well dmesg reports 1Ghz for this Viao FX290, but I didn't believe it after Terry's message. So I went into BIOS Setup and set the power management for max performance all of the time. Now my 800 sec executable is running at 420 sec, still a little slower than Windows at 300 sec. I wonder how many other laptop users are totally in the dark that they are on slow speed all the time while in FBSD? Thanks again Terry. Rob. . -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 16 16:27:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D8C37B404 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1H0Rcs02541 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:27:38 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:27:38 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSD Theme Tune Message-ID: <20020217112738.B291@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is there any theme tune, or jingle, for FreeBSD or BSD in general? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 16 17: 2: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31DEF37B405 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0237.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.237] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16cFiG-00075l-00; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:01:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3C6F00FA.C8B7693B@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:01:46 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rob Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?/Terry is a genius :) References: <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> <3C6DD1C7.4F3DEE06@mindspring.com> <3C6DD7E4.2F3DF868@pythonemproject.com> <3C6E733C.B7B6535C@pythonemproject.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rob wrote: > Well dmesg reports 1Ghz for this Viao FX290, but I didn't believe it > after Terry's message. So I went into BIOS Setup and set the power > management for max performance all of the time. Now my 800 sec > executable is running at 420 sec, still a little slower than Windows at > 300 sec. I wonder how many other laptop users are totally in the dark > that they are on slow speed all the time while in FBSD? Thanks again > Terry. FWIW, this thread is probably not being monitored by Mike Smith; you ought to report this as a bug, so that it gets taken care of for real, instead of as a workaround. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 16 18: 4:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com (smtp015.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 80CC837B400 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-20-123-208.chs.bellsouth.net (HELO yahoo.com) (66.20.123.208) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Feb 2002 02:04:35 -0000 Message-ID: <3C6F114C.9223B6BE@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:11:24 -0500 From: Marcia Barrett Nice X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Theme Tune References: <20020217112738.B291@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Some nights it is definitely "Sleepless" by Soul Coughing. Marci Sue Blake wrote: > Is there any theme tune, or jingle, for FreeBSD or BSD in general? > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 16 18: 8:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A5C37B404 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.11.3/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g1H28e198044; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:08:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:08:40 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rob , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?/Terry is a genius :) In-Reply-To: <3C6F00FA.C8B7693B@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020216180815.J91166-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> X-All-Your-Base: are belong to us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 16 Feb 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Rob wrote: > > Well dmesg reports 1Ghz for this Viao FX290, but I didn't believe it > > after Terry's message. So I went into BIOS Setup and set the power > > management for max performance all of the time. Now my 800 sec > > executable is running at 420 sec, still a little slower than Windows at > > 300 sec. I wonder how many other laptop users are totally in the dark > > that they are on slow speed all the time while in FBSD? Thanks again > > Terry. > > FWIW, this thread is probably not being monitored by > Mike Smith; you ought to report this as a bug, so > that it gets taken care of for real, instead of as a > workaround. Good luck. The Vaios are infamous for having bad ACPI implementations. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 16 21:14:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19EC37B405 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:14:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org ([12.233.149.189]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020217051437.TWXF2951.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@bmah.dyndns.org>; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 05:14:37 +0000 Received: (from bmah@localhost) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1H5EaV56661; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:14:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200202170514.g1H5EaV56661@bmah.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Theme Tune In-reply-to: <20020217112738.B291@welearn.com.au> References: <20020217112738.B291@welearn.com.au> Comments: In-reply-to Sue Blake message dated "Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:27:38 +1100." From: bmah@FreeBSD.ORG (Bruce A. Mah) Reply-To: bmah@FreeBSD.ORG X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:14:36 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If memory serves me right, Sue Blake wrote: > Is there any theme tune, or jingle, for FreeBSD or BSD in general? Well, I wrote two filks recently ("FreeBSD" and "The Twelve Days of Code-Freeze"). They're in the -chat archives, around the time of the 4.4-RELEASE and 4.5-RELEASE code-freezes, respectively. But that's probably not what you wanted. :-) Bruce. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 16 22:54:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4315837B419 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27736; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:53:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020216134025.01cfd980@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:45:27 -0700 To: aw1@stade.co.uk, "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Fortran (was Re: Why is Python slower on FreeBSD than Windows?) In-Reply-To: <20020216022307.B79138@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> References: <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> <3C6D22C2.268E6915@pythonemproject.com> <20020215145841.O33755-100000@resnet.uoregon.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:23 PM 2/15/2002, Adrian Wontroba wrote: >"Real Programmers can write Fortran in any language." To quote from an >old, and quite funny, list of things that Real Programmers do and don't >do. > >It was my first language. Fortunately I was soon introduced to Algol. Funny thing about Algol: When Algol-60 (which had some features that neither FORTRAN nor C has, such as range and bounds checking) for UNIVAC hardware was completed, scientists at Case Institute of Technology (where I did my undergraduate degree) ported some old government code over and tried to run it. The machine immediately reported runtime errors. Variables were undefined; subscripts were going out of bounds; the results that were produced if the errors were ignored were virtually random. And now the punch line: the code they'd ported had been used in the design of nuclear weapons. I trust neither FORTRAN nor C to this day. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message