From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 1:32:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DBC037B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ene.asda.gr (ene.asda.gr [193.92.118.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0348743E42 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:32:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lefty@ene.asda.gr) Received: from ene.asda.gr (lefty.ene.asda.gr [193.92.118.162]) by ene.asda.gr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21AA03FBF; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:32:24 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <3DD7623C.A099C10@ene.asda.gr> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:32:44 +0200 From: Lefteris Tsintjelis Organization: ASDA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dima Dorfman Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021117115616.T301-100000@extortion.peterh.dropbear.id.au> <3DD6EEA0.AD524CA2@ene.asda.gr> <20021117073929.GC5793@trit.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dima Dorfman wrote: > > Lefteris Tsintjelis wrote: > > It sure is misleading. Why is it called -stable then? You would expect > > to stand up to its name. > > I think the name "STABLE" comes from stability in terms of the API and > ABI, not stability as reliability. That seems to be a much more > reasonable goal--not to say that reliability shouldn't be goal, but > that a development branch as -STABLE is should be expected to be > unreliable at times (this has been mentioned before). The API and ABI > in -STABLE are actually stable, unlike in -CURRENT . . . It is actually mentioned a few times before, including documentation, but it seems that some people are easily confused by the term -STABLE and relate it to reliable as well, not just the API and ABI. I made that mistake as a beginner user and took me a while to realize that -STABLE isn't necessarily -RELIABLE. I think it is easy for a newcomer to make that mistake because in general terms "stable" and "reliable" can be very close. I think that no newcomer will easily come to a conclusion that -STABLE applies to ABI and API mostly. That certainly wasn't the first thing that came to my mind just by the sound of it!). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 1:59:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5292C37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C871043E9E for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:59:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAH9xb918972 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:59:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:59:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The most appropriate version of any operating system to run on your server is the oldest one that meets your requirements. Otherwise you will spend your life doing someone else's debugging. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc G. Fournier" Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 04:28 Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? > On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > > > From: "Lefteris Tsintjelis" > > To: "Peter Hoskin" > > Cc: "Marc G. Fournier" ; "Hununu" > > ; > > Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:19 PM > > Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? > > > > > > > It sure is misleading. Why is it called -stable then? You would > > expect > > > to stand up to its name. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lefteris Tsintjelis > > > > > > > It depends on your point of view. -CURRENT is noted as occasionally > > being broken to the point that it won't even build. The RELENG_4 > > branch (almost) always will. From a -CURRENT point of view, > > RELENG_4 is "stable." > > > > However, to someone looking from the other direction, I can see > > where it might be 'misleading.' Perhaps it should have been called > > "FUTURE" and "CURRENT", instead. But I'm not sure that any > > of the core team or committers would consider themselves 'prophets.' > > ;-) > > Occasional problems with -STABLE I've always expected ... I don't run a > typical server ... hell, I had a problem for awhile there where I was > hitting the edge of the KVM, causing it to crash ... but, I swear, > STABLE's stability has been going down, not improving ... to the point > where I had one machine running a Sept10th kernel that would run for a few > weeks in a stretch, but a newer kernel I'd be lucky to keep alive for > 24-48hrs ... > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 4:14:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D927437B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 04:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from lancelot.cosmicfire.net (lancelot.cosmicfire.net [64.32.246.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C2C7943E6E for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 04:14:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gs@vacfu.org) Received: (qmail 19816 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2002 12:13:32 -0000 Received: from dh-fw-1.oru.se (HELO rainbowpeace.DH-FW-1.oru.se) (gs@vacfu.org@130.243.97.72) by vacfu.org with SMTP; 17 Nov 2002 12:13:32 -0000 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:12:43 +0100 From: Gustaf Sjoberg To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: c-programming input needed (off topic) Message-Id: <20021117131243.3911ee3c.gs@vacfu.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, i've decided to start programming c again (havent written anything in c for about 6 years) but, i need to write something in order to learn and i'm pretty bored with the examples in the book. can anyone think of a program (not too big or advanced as i'm a "newbie") or point me to a resource for unix c programming? it would be nice to write a somewhat useful program instead of the "hello world" type examples i have iun my book ;-) thanks in anticipation, GS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 6: 1:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B441537B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from vcksi2.nw.wakwak.com (vcksi2.nw.wakwak.com [211.132.128.145]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A2A543E4A for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 06:01:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sada@BSDclub.org) Received: from bf.wakwak.com (bf.wakwak.com [211.132.128.101:25]) by vcksi2.nw.wakwak.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8C34000A; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:01:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from BSDclub.org (sada.as.wakwak.ne.jp [61.115.78.20]) by bf.wakwak.com (8.12.6/8.12.6/2002-09-12) with SMTP id gAHE1csX094446; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:01:40 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from sada@BSDclub.org) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:01:38 +0900 From: SADA Kenji To: Mike Jeays Cc: sada@BSDclub.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PKG-ADD suggestion Message-Id: <20021117230138.1c1e987d.sada@BSDclub.org> In-Reply-To: <3DD03FDF.5020302@rogers.com> References: <3DD03FDF.5020302@rogers.com> Organization: Private X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:40:15 -0500 Mike Jeays wrote: > It would be useful if pkg_add had an option that made it store a > copy of the tarball on the local machine whenever it had to > fetch it with FTP. FYI: I wrote a simple script to fetch packages with dependencies. -- #!/bin/sh # ex:ts=4 FETCH_CMD=${FETCH_CMD:-fetch} if [ $# -eq 0 ]; then echo "usage: ${0##*/} URL_of_a_package [..]" exit 0; fi a_pkg () { base=${1%/*/*} pkg=${1##*/} if [ ! -e $pkg ]; then $FETCH_CMD $base/All/$pkg fi if [ -e $pkg ]; then for p in `tar xzfO ${pkg} '+CONTENTS'|grep '^@pkgdep'|awk '{printf("%s ",$2)}'`; do if [ ! -e $p.tgz ]; then a_pkg $base/All/$p.tgz fi done else echo "(XX) $pkg: couldn't be fetched." fi } for p in $*; do a_pkg $p done -- SADA Kenji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 8:11:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE59F37B408 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 08:11:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mhub-m2.tc.umn.edu (mhub-m2.tc.umn.edu [160.94.23.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9234D43E3B for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 08:11:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ryans@gamersimpact.com) Received: from mhub0.tc.umn.edu (mhub0.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.40]) by mhub-m2.tc.umn.edu with ESMTP for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:11:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from [128.101.186.124] by mail.tc.umn.edu with ESMTP; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:11:30 -0600 Subject: Re: c-programming input needed (off topic) From: Ryan Sommers To: Gustaf Sjoberg Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20021117131243.3911ee3c.gs@vacfu.org> References: <20021117131243.3911ee3c.gs@vacfu.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1037549517.10387.7.camel@lobo> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0 Date: 17 Nov 2002 10:11:58 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] mhub0.tc.umn.edu #+LO+TR Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A few must reads: UNIX Network Programming by W. Richard Stevens http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/013490012X/qid=1037549217/sr=5-3/ref=cm_lm_asin/002-0351644-9281664?v=glance UNIX Network Programming, Volume 2: Interprocess Communications (2nd Edition) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0130810819/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/002-0351644-9281664?v=glance&s=books As far as website for C I don't really know of any because I never looked myself. However, a great website I have found for BSD assembly (which learning assembly and how compilers generate assembly can be very helpful in optimizing your C code) is: http://www.int80h.org/bsdasm/ Hope this helps! On Sun, 2002-11-17 at 06:12, Gustaf Sjoberg wrote: > Hi, > i've decided to start programming c again (havent written anything in c for about 6 years) but, i need to write something in order to learn and i'm pretty bored with the examples in the book. can anyone think of a program (not too big or advanced as i'm a "newbie") or point me to a resource for unix c programming? it would be nice to write a somewhat useful program instead of the "hello world" type examples i have iun my book ;-) > > thanks in anticipation, > GS > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Ryan Sommers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 9:15:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234B337B404; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ene.asda.gr (ene.asda.gr [193.92.118.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5111343E42; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:15:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lefty@ene.asda.gr) Received: from ene.asda.gr (lefty.ene.asda.gr [193.92.118.162]) by ene.asda.gr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59804119; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:15:06 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <3DD7CEB0.F2A9C2F8@ene.asda.gr> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:15:28 +0200 From: Lefteris Tsintjelis Organization: ASDA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eugene Grosbein Cc: Kenneth Mays , scrappy@hub.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: -STABLE was stable for long time (Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS?) References: <20021117224945.A806@grosbein.pp.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eugene Grosbein wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 17, 2002 at 10:14:51AM -0500, Kenneth Mays wrote: > > > Your question brings up an issue that was talked about several times, and it > > was addressed in the docs and the newsgroup. -STABLE is an engineering > > development branch that is 'more stable' than -CURRENT, but not more stable > > than -RELEASE. -STABLE is NOT for end users/customers for official > > production use (i.e. do so at your own risk). > > I wonder why no one says that -STABLE really WAS stable and WAS intended > for end users less than 2 years ago. Moreover, Hanbook said you > need -STABLE if you are using FreeBSD in production environment > and you need stability, Handbook said it even 15 months ago. > And it has been assetring so for long time, that's where the name > of this branch came from. Anyone can see that in CVS. > > Eugene Grosbein NOW THAT was making a lot of sense two years ago. Well, MY answer is that I am very new to FreeBSD so I wouldn't really know the branch name history but I couldn't agree any more with the old terminology you are referring too. PS: I think that this should be a chat thread though. LEfteris Tsintjelis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 9:18:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7262537B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow058o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BC543E8A for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:18:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:18:26 +0000 Received: from cream.org (unverified [62.31.102.197]) by pcow058m.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with ESMTP id ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:18:26 +0000 Message-ID: <3DD7CF81.7030407@cream.org> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:18:57 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat , "Marc G. Fournier" Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org> <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > The most appropriate version of any operating system to run on your server > is the oldest one that meets your requirements. Otherwise you will spend > your life doing someone else's debugging. I think the point is that if everyone took that opinion then -stable would never get stress-tested in the sort of environment that Marc is using it, and we would never find some problems until a -release was rolled making the -release far less stable than we are used to. I think it's great that Marc is willing to run -stable in such an environment, basically for the good of the communuity to help to iron out bugs before a release. The problem is that he has been getting an unacceptably high level of crashes and no help in ironing out the bugs. Unfortunately these situations need someone with a high level of knowledge to sit down and work with Marc's crash dumps to figure out what the problem is. And those people are few and far between..... Andrew. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 9:38:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6A037B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 806F143E6E for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:38:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAHHcd921974 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:38:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <056001c28e60$2af21cf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org> <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD7CF81.7030407@cream.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:38:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew writes: > I think the point is that if everyone took > that opinion then -stable would never get > stress-tested in the sort of environment > that Marc is using it, and we would never > find some problems until a -release was > rolled making the -release far less stable > than we are used to. That's right. Thank goodness there are still people around who are willing to take unnecessary risks. As long as they aren't working in my organization. Of course, the ideal would be for the developers to stress-test the OS, since they wrote it. Apparently that doesn't happen for FreeBSD. One of the unfortunate consequences of open source, I suspect. > Unfortunately these situations need someone > with a high level of knowledge to sit down > and work with Marc's crash dumps to figure out > what the problem is. And those people are few > and far between..... Which is why organizations with mission-critical applications tend to run proprietary software. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 11:11:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC34737B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mother.ludd.luth.se (mother.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626CF43E75 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:11:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pantzer@ludd.luth.se) Received: from skalman.campus.luth.se (skalman.campus.luth.se [130.240.197.52]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id gAHJBGX07962; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:11:16 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? From: Mattias Pantzare To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <056001c28e60$2af21cf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org> <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD7CF81.7030407@cream.org> <056001c28e60$2af21cf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 Date: 17 Nov 2002 20:11:16 +0100 Message-Id: <1037560276.1094.19.camel@skalman.campus.luth.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 2002-11-17 at 18:38, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Andrew writes: > > > I think the point is that if everyone took > > that opinion then -stable would never get > > stress-tested in the sort of environment > > that Marc is using it, and we would never > > find some problems until a -release was > > rolled making the -release far less stable > > than we are used to. > > That's right. Thank goodness there are still people around who are willing > to take unnecessary risks. As long as they aren't working in my > organization. > > Of course, the ideal would be for the developers to stress-test the OS, > since they wrote it. Apparently that doesn't happen for FreeBSD. One of > the unfortunate consequences of open source, I suspect. You simply can't stresstest to the point that customers won't find problems anyway. That is why the closed source companies have betatesters and releases betas to the public.That is realy not an open vs closed source argument at all. That is also why one finds buggs even in releases. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 11:37:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 749D137B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2692143E4A for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:37:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAHJbAc27202; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:37:10 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id gAHJbAb05839; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:37:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (andersonpc [192.168.42.18]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAHJb6X05832; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:37:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3DD7F107.DCE620A6@centtech.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:41:59 -0600 From: Eric Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.6.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mattias Pantzare Cc: Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org> <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD7CF81.7030407@cream.org> <056001c28e60$2af21cf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <1037560276.1094.19.camel@skalman.campus.luth.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mattias Pantzare wrote: > > Of course, the ideal would be for the developers to stress-test the OS, > > since they wrote it. Apparently that doesn't happen for FreeBSD. One of > > the unfortunate consequences of open source, I suspect. > > You simply can't stresstest to the point that customers won't find > problems anyway. That is why the closed source companies have > betatesters and releases betas to the public.That is realy not an open > vs closed source argument at all. > Yes, it's probably impossible to think that we could find all bugs before the release happens, but I do think that al ot more could be done. I said once a long time ago, that FreeBSD needs a group of volunteers willing to do their share at finding bugs - this has to be an organized group of people, not just a "go ahead and find bugs, no one is stopping you" sort of thing. Finding bugs in hardware has the same problems, and all developers that have jobs that depend on the quality of the product do "verification" on their products. Anyway, I still say everyone should realize that in order to make -STABLE as reliable as it sounds, and -RELEASE more rock solid than it has ever been, we need to have a group of people running their standard tests on it before releases go out. Eric To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 12: 9:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 517C637B404 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:09:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E79A43E42 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:09:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A364B8A2D39; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:09:10 -0400 (AST) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:09:10 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: <056001c28e60$2af21cf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Nov 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Andrew writes: > > > I think the point is that if everyone took > > that opinion then -stable would never get > > stress-tested in the sort of environment > > that Marc is using it, and we would never > > find some problems until a -release was > > rolled making the -release far less stable > > than we are used to. > > That's right. Thank goodness there are still people around who are willing > to take unnecessary risks. As long as they aren't working in my > organization. > > Of course, the ideal would be for the developers to stress-test the OS, > since they wrote it. Apparently that doesn't happen for FreeBSD. One of > the unfortunate consequences of open source, I suspect. Actually ... there is a difference between a developer stress-testing an application, especially one as complex as an OS, and real world testing ... how many different combinations of software am I running in 87 jails for 87 different clients? How many developers have the hardware to continously pound in such an environment for 20 days straight until it finally decides to crash? I'm not hitting problems where you boot up and it crashes ... those ones are easy to deal with, since they are the fastest to get fixed ... I'm hitting problems where it can be several days, or weeks, of intense load before she blows ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 12:16:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3303C37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:16:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E475143E88 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:16:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83EB78A19FA; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:16:17 -0400 (AST) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:16:17 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Eric Anderson Cc: Mattias Pantzare , Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: <3DD7F107.DCE620A6@centtech.com> Message-ID: <20021117161015.L23359-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Nov 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > Anyway, I still say everyone should realize that in order to make > -STABLE as reliable as it sounds, and -RELEASE more rock solid than it > has ever been, we need to have a group of people running their standard > tests on it before releases go out. I think you have the right idea, yet backwards ... we need a group of developers who are focused on fixing the bugs reported ... I'd go back to -STABLE in a minute if I knew someone was available to focus on getting the bugs reported fixed ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 13: 1:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E2237B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:01:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7327B43E3B for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:01:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAHL1U923401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:01:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <058101c28e7c$80d421b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org><04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD7CF81.7030407@cream.org> <056001c28e60$2af21cf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <1037560276.1094.19.camel@skalman.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:01:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mattias writes: > You simply can't stresstest to the point > that customers won't find problems anyway. They should not be seeing problems every 48 hours, as has been indicated here. > That is why the closed source companies have > betatesters and releases betas to the public. Beta testers agree to put up with whatever bugs arise. Often they agree not to use beta software in critical production as well, or at least discharge the vendor from responsibility if they do. > That is realy not an open vs closed source > argument at all. It has a lot to do with it. You can do a lot more with programmers who are paid to work on something full-time than with programmers who have to work on things when they have spare moments and inclinations. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 13: 3:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D1537B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3F543E6E for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:03:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAHL3J923414 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:03:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:03:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc writes: > Actually ... there is a difference between a > developer stress-testing an application, especially > one as complex as an OS, and real world testing > ... That's why software companies usually have dedicated test groups. > How many developers have the hardware to > continously pound in such an environment > for 20 days straight until it finally > decides to crash? Large software companies do, and that's exactly what is done. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 13: 8: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21DE137B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hardtime.linuxman.net (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2305843E75 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:08:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hardtime.linuxman.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAHNIFk01260; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:18:16 -0600 Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 984611F2F; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:07:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:07:42 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Message-ID: <20021117210742.GG17611@over-yonder.net> References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 17, 2002 at 10:03:19PM +0100 I heard the voice of Anthony Atkielski, and lo! it spake thus: > > > How many developers have the hardware to > > continously pound in such an environment > > for 20 days straight until it finally > > decides to crash? > > Large software companies do, and that's exactly what is done. And that's why Windows is bug-free and robust, right? -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 13:28:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EAE337B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:28:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7582643E77 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:28:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20021117212843.BFCO2683.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@localhost.localdomain>; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 21:28:43 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gAHLQHd8037619; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:26:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gAHLQ2XA037614; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:26:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Cc: "Lefteris Tsintjelis" , "Peter Hoskin" , "Marc G. Fournier" , "Hununu" , Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021117115616.T301-100000@extortion.peterh.dropbear.id.au> <3DD6EEA0.AD524CA2@ene.asda.gr> <006601c28ddf$604010f0$fa00a8c0@DaleCoportable> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Nov 2002 13:26:02 -0800 In-Reply-To: <006601c28ddf$604010f0$fa00a8c0@DaleCoportable> Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." writes: > It depends on your point of view. -CURRENT is noted as occasionally > being broken to the point that it won't even build. Which is also true of -STABLE, except for the "is noted" part. Besides unavoidable ordinary screwups, not yet caught and fixt, it can also be for the avoidable reason that the cvs/cvsup mechanism doesn't allow for "atomic" changes to the repository (or maybe it's just not used). As a work-around, someone has suggested running "cvsup" repeatedly until changes stop happening (over the course of a few minutes, I suppose). I agree with the guy who said we should call these releases (not to be confused with "RELEASE"s) by better names. But he needn't have worried about not changing names in CVS because they already have other names there; eg, -CURRENT is "HEAD". (IIRC, there's already third name for essentially the same thing, but I've forgotten what it is and it's probably no better than CURRENT, HEAD, STABLE, or worse, names like RELEASE_4 which is either not a release or is hundreds of releases so that either the first part or last part of the name is confusing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 14: 0:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5693B37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mother.ludd.luth.se (mother.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D737343E42 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:00:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pantzer@ludd.luth.se) Received: from skalman.campus.luth.se (skalman.campus.luth.se [130.240.197.52]) by mother.ludd.luth.se (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id gAHM0gX20081; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:00:42 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? From: Mattias Pantzare To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 Date: 17 Nov 2002 23:00:42 +0100 Message-Id: <1037570442.1094.33.camel@skalman.campus.luth.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 2002-11-17 at 22:03, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Marc writes: > > > Actually ... there is a difference between a > > developer stress-testing an application, especially > > one as complex as an OS, and real world testing > > ... > > That's why software companies usually have dedicated test groups. > > > How many developers have the hardware to > > continously pound in such an environment > > for 20 days straight until it finally > > decides to crash? > > Large software companies do, and that's exactly what is done. And they still won't find all bugs. Whe have found bugs in a big router verndors products that where so bad that we had to move some functions to a diffrent box in order to have a working network. They could not repeat that in the lab. Testing is good, but one has to keep in mind that it is very hard to simulate real loads. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 14: 3:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63BC137B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB6543E4A for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:03:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6938A16E7; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:03:33 -0400 (AST) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:03:33 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: <058101c28e7c$80d421b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20021117175331.B23359-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Nov 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Mattias writes: > > > You simply can't stresstest to the point > > that customers won't find problems anyway. > > They should not be seeing problems every 48 hours, as has been indicated > here. > > > That is why the closed source companies have > > betatesters and releases betas to the public. > > Beta testers agree to put up with whatever bugs arise. Often they agree not > to use beta software in critical production as well, or at least discharge > the vendor from responsibility if they do. See, I think the point you are missing is that, for all intents and purposes, I "volunteered" to high load, real life, production servers in order to thrash and pound the -STABLE branch ... I've never asked for, nor expected, a bug free OS, only some means to have the critical bugs (those bugs that result in the server crashing) addressed ... posting to -stable the output of gdb and getting silence in exchange is not it ... most of the crashes are repetitive, same area of code each time, so if that could get fixed, it would hopefully be longer between crashes ... Ask Matt, I'm pretty much willing to do anything to make -STABLE *solid* when it crashes ... the bug that he fixed way back for me, while trying to debugging, I even went to the extent of asking if there was something we could run on the server to make it crash *faster* ... a crash on my servers takes between 1 and 2 hours to happen, since its dumping core to the other server, which affects my clients ... but if I can get the bug fixed that caused that crash, its all the better for my clients in the long run ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 14: 6:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14EF637B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2A643E4A for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:06:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918918A16E7; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:06:41 -0400 (AST) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:06:41 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20021117180438.F23359-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Nov 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Marc writes: > > > Actually ... there is a difference between a > > developer stress-testing an application, especially > > one as complex as an OS, and real world testing > > ... > > That's why software companies usually have dedicated test groups. Maybe we should for one for FreeBSD ... a closed list where the only traffic on it is crash related to the -STABLE branch ... all OS committers required to be on the list, and those willing to test/thrash the latest and greatest -STABLE ... I'd put all my servers back to -STABLE in a minute if I thought someone cared when it crashed ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 14:58:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3043F37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0020B43E6E for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:58:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [213.136.30.47] (shub@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gAHLcif07471; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:38:45 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@127.0.0.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3DD7F107.DCE620A6@centtech.com> References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org> <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD7CF81.7030407@cream.org> <056001c28e60$2af21cf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <1037560276.1094.19.camel@skalman.campus.luth.se> <3DD7F107.DCE620A6@centtech.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:33:13 +0100 To: Eric Anderson From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Cc: Mattias Pantzare , Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat , Mark Murray Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:41 PM -0600 2002/11/17, Eric Anderson wrote: > I said once a long time ago, that FreeBSD needs a group of volunteers > willing to do their share at finding bugs - this has to be an organized > group of people, not just a "go ahead and find bugs, no one is stopping > you" sort of thing. Finding bugs in hardware has the same problems, and > all developers that have jobs that depend on the quality of the > product do "verification" on their products. I think a dedicated team of QA people is a good idea. Indeed, Mark Murray just yesterday (at BSDCon Europe 2002) convinced me that I need to participate in this kind of process for -CURRENT. I would like to see this process formalized as an actual project within FreeBSD. I am not a programmer, so I am limited in the number of ways I can contribute to the project. Amongst almost all multi-person open source development projects, it has been my experience that there is a serious "glass ceiling" above the head of anyone who wants to contribute but doesn't write code. However, I have been doing various types of performance tuning for a while, and I can usually manage to set up environments where I beat the hell out of systems (such as I was trying to do for my talk last week at LISA 2002 and my talk yesterday at BSDCon Europe 2000). I would like to think I have at least some problem-solving ability, and that I could provide assistance in finding bugs, and with the help of other people who can program, we can get these bugs eliminated before the code ships. Of course, we'd need to have two teams -- the people who test -CURRENT before it becomes -STABLE, and the people who test -STABLE before it becomes -RELEASE. Hopefully, there would be some overlap, and some people could help test in both environments. Myself, I'm going to be testing on a single machine in my basement, at least for now. It's the only FreeBSD-capable system I have (my wife's previous laptop, a Compaq Armada 4131T, w/ 48MB of RAM, a Pentium-133, and a 10GB hard drive upgrade I put in myself). Once the SPARC and PowerPC efforts come further along, I've also got an ancient Twinhead Twinstationg 5G (Sun SPPARCstation 5 clone) and an Apple PowerMac 7200/90 that I could potentially use for testing those platforms as well. However, while I need an application that will beat the hell out of the system, I also need something that won't be truly mission-critical, because I do have only the one (ancient) system. If (when) my test system dies, I need to make sure that my wife won't be excessively negatively impacted -- especially since I might be away at a conference or consulting at a customer site when it dies. Classic Cobbler's Children issue, but there you have it. I would like to try running these things at least briefly on 4.6.2-RELEASE (since that's what is installed on that machine now), so that I can try to isolate the -CURRENT specific issues when I change the OS. I got a copy of the 4.6 and 4.7 DVDs, one of which has the -CURRENT-DP1 image, and that will probably be my next jump. After that, I'll go to -DP2. For now, it looks like running a squid web proxy will help in the area of thrashing disk I/O, and I'm thinking I'll also run a caching nameserver inside my home network. Any further advice as to other useful, performance-enhancing, but not necessarily mission-critical applications would be greatly appreciated. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 15:22:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E37E437B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:22:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED54643E88 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:22:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id gAHNMDOs021676; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:22:14 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id gAHNMBsc021673; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:22:11 +0200 (EET) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:22:11 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Mattias Pantzare Cc: Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: <1037570442.1094.33.camel@skalman.campus.luth.se> Message-ID: <20021118010632.X14880-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17 Nov 2002, Mattias Pantzare wrote: > On Sun, 2002-11-17 at 22:03, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Marc writes: > > > > > Actually ... there is a difference between a > > > developer stress-testing an application, especially > > > one as complex as an OS, and real world testing > > > ... > > > > That's why software companies usually have dedicated test groups. > > > > > How many developers have the hardware to > > > continously pound in such an environment > > > for 20 days straight until it finally > > > decides to crash? > > > > Large software companies do, and that's exactly what is done. > > And they still won't find all bugs. Whe have found bugs in a big router > verndors products that where so bad that we had to move some functions > to a diffrent box in order to have a working network. They could not > repeat that in the lab. Testing is good, but one has to keep in mind > that it is very hard to simulate real loads. > You are missing the point - testing does indeed find very large percenatge of bugs, esp. bad ones. Not all - just a quite large percenatge. If testing did not help, companies would definately have gotten rid of their test teams long ago. Testing - including dead boring regular testing - definately helps. But there is in practice no chance wahtsoever i fear that say -current would be in a state where one might say 'and now bound on it' in regular, say bi-weekly periods. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 15:59: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F0E37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9197243E42 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:59:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAHNx0924833 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:59:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <05c701c28e95$4c8c9c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021117210742.GG17611@over-yonder.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:59:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew writes: > And that's why Windows is bug-free and robust, right? In part, yes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 16: 2: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1523D37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942AA43E6E for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:02:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAI01x924864 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:01:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <05d201c28e95$b75ecd70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <1037570442.1094.33.camel@skalman.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:01:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mattias writes: > And they still won't find all bugs. It's almost impossible to find all bugs in any non-trivial software product. However, that is not an excuse for not making an effort to find as many as possible. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 16: 2:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB6037B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B807443E3B for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:02:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [213.136.30.47] (shub@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gAI02Tf14633; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:02:30 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@127.0.0.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20021117180438.F23359-100000@hub.org> References: <20021117180438.F23359-100000@hub.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:00:58 +0100 To: "Marc G. Fournier" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Cc: Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:06 PM -0400 2002/11/17, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Maybe we should for one for FreeBSD ... a closed list where the only > traffic on it is crash related to the -STABLE branch ... all OS committers > required to be on the list, and those willing to test/thrash the latest > and greatest -STABLE ... I'd put all my servers back to -STABLE in a > minute if I thought someone cared when it crashed ... I'm told that the folks on the -CURRENT mailing list are very responsive to helping to fix bugs. Maybe what you (and I) should be doing is to help test -CURRENT as opposed to -STABLE. I think a separate QA/BUG team would also be a good idea. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 16: 3:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B7237B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C313643E4A for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:03:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAI03k924889 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:03:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <05db01c28e95$f7421690$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021117180438.F23359-100000@hub.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:03:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc writes: > ... I'd put all my servers back to -STABLE in a > minute if I thought someone cared when it crashed ... Almost nobody enjoys debugging, and when people are not being paid to do it, it's almost impossible to motivate anyone to undertake it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 16: 8:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5868F37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:08:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191E543E75 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:08:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8764D8A1A4C; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:08:37 -0400 (AST) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:08:37 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: <05d201c28e95$b75ecd70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20021117200529.S23359-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Mattias writes: > > > And they still won't find all bugs. > > It's almost impossible to find all bugs in any non-trivial software > product. However, that is not an excuse for not making an effort to find > as many as possible. Exactly, but if there is not sufficient support for those willing to do that effort, it makes it very difficult ... that's why I think there almost might need to be a stable-qa list that some of us can have a more focused ear of the developers on ... not for build related issues, only stability related ... if I can't build the system, I don't install it, I just wait a few days and try again ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 16:10:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A394337B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:10:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651CC43E6E for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:10:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF01D8A1A4C; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:10:07 -0400 (AST) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:10:07 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: <05db01c28e95$f7421690$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20021117200904.R23359-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Marc writes: > > > ... I'd put all my servers back to -STABLE in a > > minute if I thought someone cared when it crashed ... > > Almost nobody enjoys debugging, and when people are not being paid to do > it, it's almost impossible to motivate anyone to undertake it. Then, those ppl shouldn't be MFC'ng code down into stable if they aren't willing to be responsible for problems that such causes ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 16:23:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8586C37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:23:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from out018.verizon.net (out018pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.96]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A0743E6E for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:23:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lsp3@gte.net) Received: from Pentium166 ([4.46.92.92]) by out018.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.09 201-253-122-126-109-20020611) with SMTP id <20021118002328.QNTN3553.out018.verizon.net@Pentium166>; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:23:28 -0600 Message-ID: <002d01c28e98$a999d740$0201a8c6@Pentium166> From: "Leland" To: "Gustaf Sjoberg" , References: <20021117131243.3911ee3c.gs@vacfu.org> Subject: Re: c-programming input needed (off topic) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:23:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > i've decided to start programming c again (havent written anything in c for about 6 years) but, i need to write something in order to learn and i'm pretty bored with the examples in the book. can anyone think of a program (not too big or advanced as i'm a "newbie") or point me to a resource for unix c programming? it would be nice to write a somewhat useful program instead of the "hello world" type examples i have iun my book ;-) Try the user group comp.lang.c and just listen for awhile. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 17:32:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C15837B404 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:32:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB9143E42 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:32:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:32:06 +0000 Received: from cream.org (unverified [62.31.103.10]) by pcow057o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:32:06 +0000 Message-ID: <3DD84338.90303@cream.org> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:32:40 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021117200529.S23359-100000@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Exactly, but if there is not sufficient support for those willing to do > that effort, it makes it very difficult ... that's why I think there > almost might need to be a stable-qa list that some of us can have a more > focused ear of the developers on ... not for build related issues, only > stability related ... if I can't build the system, I don't install it, I > just wait a few days and try again ... There already is a -qa mailing list, but I don't think it's entirely what you are suggesting. I remember it being used for various discussions surrounding stability by re@ surrounding the last release. Perhaps it could be used for what you want though? Andrew. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 17:42:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5CA37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:42:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1443943E42 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:42:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAI1gL925703 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 02:42:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <064801c28ea3$bc9574c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021117200904.R23359-100000@hub.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 02:42:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc writes: > Then, those ppl shouldn't be MFC'ng code down > into stable if they aren't willing to be > responsible for problems that such causes ... My understanding is that the people who work on FreeBSD are not paid to do so. If this is so, there is really no justification for complaint. Beggars can't be choosers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 17:55:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A7C37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:55:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFCA543E42 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:55:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0277.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.22] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Db8X-0005wO-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:55:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD8483C.4E4AD6F6@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:54:04 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021117210742.GG17611@over-yonder.net> <05c701c28e95$4c8c9c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Matthew writes: > > And that's why Windows is bug-free and robust, right? > > In part, yes. It is soooooooo tempting to write an STT ("Security Test Tool") for Windows systems which incorporates implementations of all known remote exploits, one per subroutine, with payload arguments, and then Open Source it, so that people can test their Windows systems for security exploits. The license, of course, would be written to prohibit malicious users from replacing the test payload with a real one by changing the single function parameter to the main driver program, and would explain exactly what steps would constitute a prohibited action. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 17:56:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF45C37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A83F43E88 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:56:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA5F8A1A6C; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 21:56:35 -0400 (AST) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 21:56:35 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Andrew Boothman Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: <3DD84338.90303@cream.org> Message-ID: <20021117213453.L23359-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Andrew Boothman wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Exactly, but if there is not sufficient support for those willing to do > > that effort, it makes it very difficult ... that's why I think there > > almost might need to be a stable-qa list that some of us can have a more > > focused ear of the developers on ... not for build related issues, only > > stability related ... if I can't build the system, I don't install it, I > > just wait a few days and try again ... > > There already is a -qa mailing list, but I don't think it's entirely > what you are suggesting. I remember it being used for various > discussions surrounding stability by re@ surrounding the last release. > > Perhaps it could be used for what you want though? It could, but it relies on two things: non-developers only reporting stability issues developers acting on the reports I'm willing to volunteer my servers ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 18: 0:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1057D37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:00:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C53AD43E6E for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:00:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B988A1AF2; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:00:06 -0400 (AST) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:00:06 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: <064801c28ea3$bc9574c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20021117215730.W23359-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Marc writes: > > > Then, those ppl shouldn't be MFC'ng code down > > into stable if they aren't willing to be > > responsible for problems that such causes ... > > My understanding is that the people who work on FreeBSD are not paid to > do so. If this is so, there is really no justification for complaint. > Beggars can't be choosers. So, you are saying we should sit quietly back and accept the instabilities? Man, will that ever get FreeBSD into the corporate IT departments ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 18: 1:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF0E37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BBE43E75 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:01:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0277.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.22] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DbEU-0006DA-00; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:01:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD849AD.3DA0DB45@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:00:13 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021117200904.R23359-100000@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Marc G. Fournier" wrote: > On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Marc writes: > > > ... I'd put all my servers back to -STABLE in a > > > minute if I thought someone cared when it crashed ... > > > > Almost nobody enjoys debugging, and when people are not being paid to do > > it, it's almost impossible to motivate anyone to undertake it. > > Then, those ppl shouldn't be MFC'ng code down into stable if they aren't > willing to be responsible for problems that such causes ... The definition of of "-STABLE" is "-RELEASE, plus bug fixes". The real issue is that most bugfix work is done against -STABLE in the first place, because that's what people are deploying; I don't know one commercial company who has -current deployed in production. The only reason MFC'ing happens at all is that TPTB refuse to accept patches against -STABLE, and require them to be patches against -CURRENT, instead, and the only way to get something into -STABLE is to port your patch to -CURRENT, and then "MFC" it into -STABLE. If it weren't for this requirement, pretty much no one would work on -CURRENT at all. It's a reasonable "self dense" mechanism for the project to have this requirement, even if it's often a pain in the butt, especially when the "port + MFC" doesn't end up with the same -STABLE patch that you started out with. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 17 18: 8:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A83137B401 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:08:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A357843E4A for ; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:08:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0277.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.22] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DbL5-00075p-00; Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:08:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD84B42.81915B5C@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:06:58 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021117215730.W23359-100000@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Marc G. Fournier" wrote: > On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Marc writes: > > > Then, those ppl shouldn't be MFC'ng code down > > > into stable if they aren't willing to be > > > responsible for problems that such causes ... > > > > My understanding is that the people who work on FreeBSD are not paid to > > do so. If this is so, there is really no justification for complaint. > > Beggars can't be choosers. > > So, you are saying we should sit quietly back and accept the > instabilities? Man, will that ever get FreeBSD into the corporate IT > departments ... No, as usual, he's putting back-handed Windows advocacy into the FreeBSD mailing list archives, to stir up FUD, and you are feeding him straight lines, which he's twisting to his own ends. For the record, commercial software is often more buggy than free software, because the person writing the commercial software is doing it to a design he may not particularly like, or even thinks is stupid, and he's just a wage-schmuck implementing a bad design, whereas the free software is written by someone who is doing it for love. If you want to draw a distinction between free and commercial software, start with free software UI's suck, compared to the very pretty commercial UI's. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 1:44:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B01637B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 031E143E42 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:44:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAI9iV929300 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:44:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <06af01c28ee7$189b5da0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021117210742.GG17611@over-yonder.net> <05c701c28e95$4c8c9c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8483C.4E4AD6F6@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:44:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > It is soooooooo tempting to write an STT ("Security > Test Tool") for Windows systems which incorporates > implementations of all known remote exploits, one > per subroutine, with payload arguments, and then > Open Source it, so that people can test their > Windows systems for security exploits. According to CERT, Linux now leads the way in security bugs. You might want to write your tool for Linux instead. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 1:47:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C5DD37B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:47:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC86243E75 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:47:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAI9l9929325 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:47:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <06b601c28ee7$76a3c8b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021117215730.W23359-100000@hub.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:47:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc writes: > So, you are saying we should sit quietly back > and accept the instabilities? I'm saying that you don't really have much choice, unless you start paying people to work on the OS. For most people, earning money to pay the rent comes first, and volunteer work comes second. Additionally, in volunteer work, people tend to concentrate on what they enjoy, and not always on what must be done. > Man, will that ever get FreeBSD into the corporate IT > departments ... I've pointed out this problem before. It exists for all open-source software. That's one reason why corporations still pay money for proprietary software, even when they can get potentially better software for free. Knowing the the software was free won't help if it crashes at 3 AM and there's nobody to call for support. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 1:58:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7402437B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8F643E6E for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:58:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0012.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.12] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DifQ-0003Km-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:58:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD8B845.5E3BC445@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 01:52:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021117210742.GG17611@over-yonder.net> <05c701c28e95$4c8c9c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8483C.4E4AD6F6@mindspring.com> <06af01c28ee7$189b5da0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > > It is soooooooo tempting to write an STT ("Security > > Test Tool") for Windows systems which incorporates > > implementations of all known remote exploits, one > > per subroutine, with payload arguments, and then > > Open Source it, so that people can test their > > Windows systems for security exploits. > > According to CERT, Linux now leads the way in security bugs. You might want > to write your tool for Linux instead. There isn't some Linux geek trying to claim that Linux is "bug free" and/or "less buggy than FreeBSD", simply because RedHat can afford to hire beta testers for end-of-life non-release code versions, compared to FreeBSD, which can't. There's no need to humiliate said Linux advocate by releasing such code, as he does not exist, and is not begging to be humiliated, by posting such tripe on FreeBSD mailing lists. Apparently, Microsoft just spent a lot of money getting a CCSE evaluation, and only achieved a CAPP/EAL4, which basically means that they OS can't be safely hooked to the Internet, without the risk of being compromised by anyone with a "cracker's cookbook". See: http://eros.cs.jhu.edu/~shap/NT-EAL4.html -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 2:17:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF70637B404 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 02:17:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CAF743E6E for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 02:17:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAIAHj929550 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:17:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <06bd01c28eeb$bd4e9de0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021117210742.GG17611@over-yonder.net> <05c701c28e95$4c8c9c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8483C.4E4AD6F6@mindspring.com> <06af01c28ee7$189b5da0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8B845.5E3BC445@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:17:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > Apparently, Microsoft just spent a lot of > money getting a CCSE evaluation, and only > achieved a CAPP/EAL4, which basically means > that they OS can't be safely hooked to the > Internet, without the risk of being compromised > by anyone with a "cracker's cookbook". Virtually no operating system can be simultaneously hooked to the Internet _and_ remain fully secure. UNIX is similarly vulnerable, as are just about all other mainstream operating systems. Multics, BLACKER, SCOMP, and some others were far more secure, but I don't know what happened to them (Multics, the OS of which UNIX is a subset, is dead, but the others I don't know about). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 2:37:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264E037B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 02:37:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE7243E6E for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 02:37:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0012.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.12] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18DjHH-0000cX-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 02:37:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD8C13C.87296F62@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 02:30:20 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021117210742.GG17611@over-yonder.net> <05c701c28e95$4c8c9c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8483C.4E4AD6F6@mindspring.com> <06af01c28ee7$189b5da0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8B845.5E3BC445@mindspring.com> <06bd01c28eeb$bd4e9de0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Virtually no operating system can be simultaneously hooked to the Internet > _and_ remain fully secure. UNIX is similarly vulnerable, as are just about > all other mainstream operating systems. Multics, BLACKER, SCOMP, and some > others were far more secure, but I don't know what happened to them > (Multics, the OS of which UNIX is a subset, is dead, but the others I don't > know about). You may quote me on this: Claiming that it's OK for your product to suck because someone else's product sucks is really stupid. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 3: 1:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6765A37B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:01:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FCF43E3B for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 03:01:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAIB1H929882 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:01:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <06c801c28ef1$d2009030$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021117210742.GG17611@over-yonder.net> <05c701c28e95$4c8c9c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8483C.4E4AD6F6@mindspring.com> <06af01c28ee7$189b5da0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8B845.5E3BC445@mindspring.com> <06bd01c28eeb$bd4e9de0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8C13C.87296F62@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:01:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > You may quote me on this: > > Claiming that it's OK for your product to > suck because someone else's product sucks > is really stupid. I agree, although I don't see the relevance of that observation here, nor do I believe you to be the first person to make it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 4:13: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB9837B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 04:13:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from lmail.actcom.co.il (mail.actcom.co.il [192.114.47.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B282B43E6E for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 04:13:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from usey@actcom.co.il) Received: from usey.org (usey.org [192.117.97.45]) by lmail.actcom.co.il (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAICCqh22324; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:12:53 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Ya'ad Golani" To: Luis Neves Subject: Re: FreeBSD 5.0 CD cover Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:12:29 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <200211151903.08336.lneves@netcabo.pt> In-Reply-To: <200211151903.08336.lneves@netcabo.pt> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200211181412.29582.usey@actcom.co.il> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Outstanding work!=20 is it really going to be 5.0's cover, or that are more sketches to observ= e? On Friday 15 November 2002 21:03, Luis Neves wrote: > Hello all, > > Last month I came across some cool Chuck images in a FreeBSD korean sit= e: > > > So I borrowed on of the images and asked a designer friend of mine to m= ake > a CD Cover for the upcoming 5.0 release. > You all can see what I am talking about here: > > PDF: > http://pwp.netcabo.pt/lneves/FreeBSD_CD_Cover/FreeBSD50_CD_Cover.pdf > > PNG: > http://pwp.netcabo.pt/lneves/FreeBSD_CD_Cover/FreeBSD50_front.png > http://pwp.netcabo.pt/lneves/FreeBSD_CD_Cover/FreeBSD50_back.png > > (I have other formats available, Encapsulated PostScript and TIFF, if t= here > is interest in those formats i will put them online also.) > > All credit goes to for making the original image, a= nd > to my friend Luis Alves for making the cover. > > I hope you like it. > Best regards, > > Luis Neves > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --=20 Best Regards,=20 Ya'ad Golani. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 9: 9:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00DA137B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:09:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E8743E75 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:09:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAIH9ac24784; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:09:36 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id gAIH9aT28033; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:09:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAIH9QX28013; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:09:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3DD91EC8.3040105@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:09:28 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Mark Murray Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org> <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD7CF81.7030407@cream.org> <056001c28e60$2af21cf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <1037560276.1094.19.camel@skalman.campus.luth.se> <3DD7F107.DCE620A6@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:41 PM -0600 2002/11/17, Eric Anderson wrote: > >> I said once a long time ago, that FreeBSD needs a group of volunteers >> willing to do their share at finding bugs - this has to be an organized >> group of people, not just a "go ahead and find bugs, no one is stopping >> you" sort of thing. Finding bugs in hardware has the same problems, and >> all developers that have jobs that depend on the quality of the >> product do "verification" on their products. > > > I think a dedicated team of QA people is a good idea. Indeed, Mark > Murray just yesterday (at BSDCon Europe 2002) convinced me that I need > to participate in this kind of process for -CURRENT. I would like to > see this process formalized as an actual project within FreeBSD. Me too.. I'm willing to organize it and get things going.. > I am not a programmer, so I am limited in the number of ways I can > contribute to the project. Amongst almost all multi-person open source > development projects, it has been my experience that there is a serious > "glass ceiling" above the head of anyone who wants to contribute but > doesn't write code. You don't have to be a programmer to run software. You just have to know the end result to expect. > However, I have been doing various types of performance tuning for a > while, and I can usually manage to set up environments where I beat the > hell out of systems (such as I was trying to do for my talk last week at > LISA 2002 and my talk yesterday at BSDCon Europe 2000). I would like to > think I have at least some problem-solving ability, and that I could > provide assistance in finding bugs, and with the help of other people > who can program, we can get these bugs eliminated before the code ships. > > Of course, we'd need to have two teams -- the people who test > -CURRENT before it becomes -STABLE, and the people who test -STABLE > before it becomes -RELEASE. Hopefully, there would be some overlap, and > some people could help test in both environments. I think one team would do it - STABLE testing most of the time, and CURRENT testing prior to a RELEASE. > Myself, I'm going to be testing on a single machine in my basement, > at least for now. It's the only FreeBSD-capable system I have (my > wife's previous laptop, a Compaq Armada 4131T, w/ 48MB of RAM, a > Pentium-133, and a 10GB hard drive upgrade I put in myself). Once the > SPARC and PowerPC efforts come further along, I've also got an ancient > Twinhead Twinstationg 5G (Sun SPPARCstation 5 clone) and an Apple > PowerMac 7200/90 that I could potentially use for testing those > platforms as well. I may be able to run FreeBSD on a handful of machines for testing. If there's enough people to volunteer, I could set up a rack of systems for this kind of work. > I would like to try running these things at least briefly on > 4.6.2-RELEASE (since that's what is installed on that machine now), so > that I can try to isolate the -CURRENT specific issues when I change the > OS. I got a copy of the 4.6 and 4.7 DVDs, one of which has the > -CURRENT-DP1 image, and that will probably be my next jump. After that, > I'll go to -DP2. We can take this off list if need be, but I'd like to hear from anyone interested in doing this. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Beware the fury of a patient man. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 9:30:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E1037B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:30:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D2543E8A for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:30:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19388A1A68; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:30:02 -0400 (AST) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:30:02 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Eric Anderson Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat , Mark Murray Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: <3DD91EC8.3040105@centtech.com> Message-ID: <20021118132338.V23359-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > We can take this off list if need be, but I'd like to hear from anyone > interested in doing this. I've been talking to Eric Moore about my more 'immediate' concerns with -STABLE ... I'm going to address that this weekend (changes in the AMR driver) and if I can, will get venus back up to -STABLE ... So I'm definitely willing to provide the real-world, high load testing environments, especially if there is going to be some sort of organization for handling resolution of crashes ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 10:13:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D59A37B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E034E43E97 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAIIDGc26442; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:13:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id gAIIDGZ02401; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:13:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAIID3X02350; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:13:04 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3DD92DB1.5070004@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:13:05 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat , Mark Murray Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021118132338.V23359-100000@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > >>We can take this off list if need be, but I'd like to hear from anyone >>interested in doing this. > > > I've been talking to Eric Moore about my more 'immediate' concerns with > -STABLE ... I'm going to address that this weekend (changes in the AMR > driver) and if I can, will get venus back up to -STABLE ... > > So I'm definitely willing to provide the real-world, high load testing > environments, especially if there is going to be some sort of organization > for handling resolution of crashes ... Ok, great. I think that if we have an organized group of people who are "in charge" of doing testing on the OS, we'll have a lot more weight when we say there is a bug. Plus, we can probably get a few developers to be part of the team, and aid us in getting things pushed through. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Beware the fury of a patient man. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 10:20: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9DE37B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:20:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C98643E4A for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:20:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E258A2D2A; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:20:04 -0400 (AST) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:20:04 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Eric Anderson Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat , Mark Murray Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: <3DD92DB1.5070004@centtech.com> Message-ID: <20021118141458.N23359-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > > > >>We can take this off list if need be, but I'd like to hear from anyone > >>interested in doing this. > > > > > > I've been talking to Eric Moore about my more 'immediate' concerns with > > -STABLE ... I'm going to address that this weekend (changes in the AMR > > driver) and if I can, will get venus back up to -STABLE ... > > > > So I'm definitely willing to provide the real-world, high load testing > > environments, especially if there is going to be some sort of organization > > for handling resolution of crashes ... > > Ok, great. I think that if we have an organized group of people who are > "in charge" of doing testing on the OS, we'll have a lot more weight > when we say there is a bug. > > Plus, we can probably get a few developers to be part of the team, and > aid us in getting things pushed through. I would recommend that a list is created for this that the ability to post to it is restricted to a small group of testers and as many developers as can be convinced to join, and keep the postings to it restricted to *just* crash related ... basically, we want a list that is focused only on crashes, not on build related issues ... personally, my issue with booting the new AMR driver wouldn't even be applicable, but that's a judgement thing ... Basically, it should be a *very* low volume list with a *very* small noise:signal ratio ... so as not to detract from its purpose ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 13: 4:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3338037B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:04:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B7A43E88 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:04:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0389.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.134] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Dt4R-00069p-00; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:04:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3DD95599.5330E6B@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:03:21 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021117210742.GG17611@over-yonder.net> <05c701c28e95$4c8c9c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8483C.4E4AD6F6@mindspring.com> <06af01c28ee7$189b5da0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8B845.5E3BC445@mindspring.com> <06bd01c28eeb$bd4e9de0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8C13C.87296F62@mindspring.com> <06c801c28ef1$d2009030$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > > You may quote me on this: > > > > Claiming that it's OK for your product to > > suck because someone else's product sucks > > is really stupid. > > I agree, although I don't see the relevance of that observation here, nor do > I believe you to be the first person to make it. You were defendinging Windows inability to score a security rating better than CAPP/EAL4. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 15: 6: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B80937B404 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ABEB43E97 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:06:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [146.106.12.76] (shub@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gAIN5rf24191; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:05:54 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@127.0.0.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20021117200529.S23359-100000@hub.org> References: <20021117200529.S23359-100000@hub.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:06:51 +0100 To: "Marc G. Fournier" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Cc: Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:08 PM -0400 2002/11/17, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Exactly, but if there is not sufficient support for those willing to do > that effort, it makes it very difficult ... that's why I think there > almost might need to be a stable-qa list that some of us can have a more > focused ear of the developers on ... not for build related issues, only > stability related ... if I can't build the system, I don't install it, I > just wait a few days and try again ... To ensure that the signal/noise ratio is kept to reasonable levels, the stable-qa and current-qa lists should be reserved for people who are willing to commit extra time and resources to actually properly debugging things (which I believe I am willing and able to do, and sounds like you are as well), and there should be a similar commitment from the people writing the code. IMO, if we could make a closed pair of lists for this sort of thing, I believe that the developers would be much more willing to work with us. In essence, what we're talking about is something akin to the level of commitment and involvement you'd get from someone if they were to get commit privileges to the source tree, only that person would be doing testing and debugging as opposed to development. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 15: 6:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729CB37B404 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:06:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671F843E88 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:06:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [146.106.12.76] (shub@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gAIN5uf24195; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:05:57 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@127.0.0.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3DD91EC8.3040105@centtech.com> References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org> <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD7CF81.7030407@cream.org> <056001c28e60$2af21cf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <1037560276.1094.19.camel@skalman.campus.luth.se> <3DD7F107.DCE620A6@centtech.com> <3DD91EC8.3040105@centtech.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:14:29 +0100 To: Eric Anderson From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat , Mark Murray Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:09 AM -0600 2002/11/18, Eric Anderson wrote: > Me too.. I'm willing to organize it and get things going.. We will definitely need a team leader, and I believe that we probably also need at least one or two core members that are willing to commit themselves to helping make this happen. Mark Murray might be a good start, since he's the guy who convinced me that I need to take part in this process. ;-) > I think one team would do it - STABLE testing most of the time, > and CURRENT testing prior to a RELEASE. Fair enough. However, at the moment, we're coming up soon on a dot-zero release, so we need people testing -CURRENT. > I may be able to run FreeBSD on a handful of machines for testing. > If there's enough people to volunteer, I could set up a rack of > systems for this kind of work. The more systems we could get set up testing a variety of different roles, the better. If/when I can get a co-location setup going, I'd be willing to run some vmware sessions that have live sites, and which could be used as testbeds for this sort of thing. > We can take this off list if need be, but I'd like to hear from > anyone interested in doing this. My wife is going to kill me if she ever finds out, but count me in. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 15:22:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD0A937B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D8B43E4A for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:22:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 452958A2D26; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:22:49 -0400 (AST) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:22:49 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Brad Knowles Cc: Eric Anderson , FreeBSD Chat , Mark Murray Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021118192047.P19853-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:09 AM -0600 2002/11/18, Eric Anderson wrote: > > > Me too.. I'm willing to organize it and get things going.. > > We will definitely need a team leader, and I believe that we > probably also need at least one or two core members that are willing > to commit themselves to helping make this happen. > > Mark Murray might be a good start, since he's the guy who > convinced me that I need to take part in this process. ;-) > > > I think one team would do it - STABLE testing most of the time, > > and CURRENT testing prior to a RELEASE. > > Fair enough. However, at the moment, we're coming up soon on a > dot-zero release, so we need people testing -CURRENT. 'K, I dont' think I could get away with -CURRENT on my machines :) But, I am planning on upgrading my desktop at the office to 5.0 over the next week ... SMP machine, SCSI drives, 1Gig of RAM ... has anyone tested netdump under 5.0? has anyone looked at getting it included into 5.0? its an invaluable tool for large servers, since it allows you to dump core to a remote server ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 15:27:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778AB37B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31B8A43E8A for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:27:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D1E38A3586; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:27:28 -0400 (AST) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:27:28 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Brad Knowles Cc: Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021118192332.L19853-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:08 PM -0400 2002/11/17, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > Exactly, but if there is not sufficient support for those willing to do > > that effort, it makes it very difficult ... that's why I think there > > almost might need to be a stable-qa list that some of us can have a more > > focused ear of the developers on ... not for build related issues, only > > stability related ... if I can't build the system, I don't install it, I > > just wait a few days and try again ... > > To ensure that the signal/noise ratio is kept to reasonable > levels, the stable-qa and current-qa lists should be reserved for > people who are willing to commit extra time and resources to actually > properly debugging things (which I believe I am willing and able to > do, and sounds like you are as well), and there should be a similar > commitment from the people writing the code. I think one of the things that would really help, if at all possible, is a more compreshensive 'how to debug a kernel' document ... whenever mine crashes, first place I go is the handbook and grab as much as I know to grab, but if that could somehow be extended? For instance, the one thing I never clued into until Matt showed me was using ps/pstat against my vmcore to see how much swap was in use, and what processes were running when she crashed ... Basically, the more informed we, the debuggers/testers, can be, the easier job of it the developers, who can fix it, will have ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 17:55:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C1037B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9730B43E88 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAJ1tr936648 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 02:55:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <08ba01c28f6e$cb3fb640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021117160245.U23359-100000@hub.org> <058a01c28e7c$c1af5f60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021117210742.GG17611@over-yonder.net> <05c701c28e95$4c8c9c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8483C.4E4AD6F6@mindspring.com> <06af01c28ee7$189b5da0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8B845.5E3BC445@mindspring.com> <06bd01c28eeb$bd4e9de0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8C13C.87296F62@mindspring.com> <06c801c28ef1$d2009030$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD95599.5330E6B@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 02:55:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > You were defendinging Windows inability to score a security > rating better than CAPP/EAL4. I was, but not in the way you describe. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 18 21:57:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA11137B401 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from hardtime.linuxman.net (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C397943E42 for ; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:57:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gh@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hardtime.linuxman.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAJ89fk05201; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 02:09:42 -0600 Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 79CD61F31; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:57:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:57:09 -0600 From: dmk To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Message-ID: <20021119055709.GA11356@over-yonder.net> References: <20021117210742.GG17611@over-yonder.net> <05c701c28e95$4c8c9c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8483C.4E4AD6F6@mindspring.com> <06af01c28ee7$189b5da0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8B845.5E3BC445@mindspring.com> <06bd01c28eeb$bd4e9de0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD8C13C.87296F62@mindspring.com> <06c801c28ef1$d2009030$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD95599.5330E6B@mindspring.com> <08ba01c28f6e$cb3fb640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <08ba01c28f6e$cb3fb640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 02:55:53AM +0100 I heard the voice of Anthony Atkielski, and lo! it spake thus: > Terry writes: > > > You were defendinging Windows inability to score a security > > rating better than CAPP/EAL4. > > I was, but not in the way you describe. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 19 0:19:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4388B37B401 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:19:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356E243E3B for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:19:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAJ8Jl5V085726; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:19:47 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id gAJ8JldT085723; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:19:47 GMT Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAJ8GJaq015707; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:16:19 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Message-Id: <200211190816.gAJ8GJaq015707@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Brad Knowles Cc: Eric Anderson , FreeBSD Chat , Mark Murray Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:14:29 +0100." Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:16:19 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 11:09 AM -0600 2002/11/18, Eric Anderson wrote: > > > Me too.. I'm willing to organize it and get things going.. > > We will definitely need a team leader, and I believe that we > probably also need at least one or two core members that are willing > to commit themselves to helping make this happen. > > Mark Murray might be a good start, since he's the guy who > convinced me that I need to take part in this process. ;-) I'm not a very good manager, but I'll certainly give it a go. > > I think one team would do it - STABLE testing most of the time, > > and CURRENT testing prior to a RELEASE. > > Fair enough. However, at the moment, we're coming up soon on a > dot-zero release, so we need people testing -CURRENT. Right. And I don't have (m)any resources to contribute to STABLE. > > I may be able to run FreeBSD on a handful of machines for testing. > > If there's enough people to volunteer, I could set up a rack of > > systems for this kind of work. > > The more systems we could get set up testing a variety of > different roles, the better. If/when I can get a co-location setup > going, I'd be willing to run some vmware sessions that have live > sites, and which could be used as testbeds for this sort of thing. > > > We can take this off list if need be, but I'd like to hear from > > anyone interested in doing this. > > My wife is going to kill me if she ever finds out, but count me in. Hehehe! M -- Mark Murray Beware! I'm umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 19 6: 7:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9688A37B401 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:07:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B966443E4A for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from DaleCoportable [12.145.226.187] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.13) id A50D3B14007A; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:05:01 -0600 Message-ID: <007501c28fd3$b9841df0$bbe2910c@DaleCoportable> From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: References: <200211190816.gAJ8GJaq015707@grimreaper.grondar.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:58:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Murray" Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? > > At 11:09 AM -0600 2002/11/18, Eric Anderson wrote: > > > > Fair enough. However, at the moment, we're coming up soon on a > > dot-zero release, so we need people testing -CURRENT. > > Right. And I don't have (m)any resources to contribute to STABLE. > And, IMHAO, these 2 quotes could well represent the crux of the entire issue. It's not that no one wants to deal with -STABLE, it's that -CURRENT, with a release date of "Mid-December," is taking attention which 4 months ago (arbitrary date) would have been put into MFC'ing fixes for -STABLE, analyzing issues and PR's, etc. etc. Any chance I'm right? Any chance this'll blow over soon? Kevin Kinsey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 19 6:52:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727F337B401 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32C543E4A for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:52:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from DaleCoportable [12.145.226.187] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.13) id AF9B92B9008A; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:50:03 -0600 Message-ID: <021901c28fd9$f7603db0$bbe2910c@DaleCoportable> From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: Subject: Solving technology's ills...... Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:43:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org from http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/17/ business/yourmoney/17PROF.html?todaysheadlines: "The Electrovan project became a mini-moonshot, but G.M. then was corporate America's 900-pound gorilla, a Microsoft of manufacturing in an era when starched white men in lab coats could solve anything." And, now, in our health-conscious, politically correct society, perhaps we solve nothing.... Pass the white bread, please.....?? Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 19 8: 7:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27C337B401; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4167E43E77; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:07:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:07:04 +0000 Received: from cream.org (unverified [213.48.109.98]) by pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.9) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:07:00 +0000 Message-ID: <3DDA61BD.6050307@cream.org> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:07:25 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org To: Pierrick Brossin Cc: Avleen Vig , "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Easy Server References: <20021119092051.K53207-100000@apple.silverwraith.com> <1037698640.3dda0650474a8@www.swissgeeks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pierrick Brossin wrote: > I have the time to make a basic install and then install each package I do want. > > Last time I tried, I had my ADSL connection running fine, Firewall configured > (almost everything closed), DHCPd, HTTPd, FTPd, SSH and DNS (was trying BIND and > djbdns). > Then I saw I didn't have much time to continue.. I had troubles with the > firewall customization, samba was always giving errors, had issues with djbdns.. > wanted to get back to BIND but a bunch of people told me djbdns is the one I > should take. Then someone told me it's for professional and I had to use BIND. > I was really lost so I backuped /etc/ and some other stuff and put the machine > in a cupboard at home... And 1-2 months later I was posting here to find a > flexible and easy to install complete freebsd server. > But I was wrooooong :D > Have to give me time to make this damn server work I think! [Moving to -chat, this is more of a random rant than answering the original question :-) ] :-) I think everyone has been in your situation at one time or another. But, I don't think any Unix system should be easy and quick to install. Operating Systems by their nature are very complicated things and when you add the complexities of web servers, mail servers, dns servers,... on top it gets even worse. But unless you take the time to make sure you understand what is going on and how the different parts interact, you'll never be able to troubleshoot your own problems. This is exactly what happened to you. If everything was installed and configured for you, I bet you wouldn't even know where to look for your system's configuration files let alone what to put in them or what the potential problem might be. FreeBSD has a steep learning curve, and I like it that way. You should take the time to learn your way around the system. Buy books (DNS & BIND by Albitz and Liu is a great book), read manpages, google for solutions and information about your problems. Build your system up a stage at a time, over the course of months, and when you are finished (of course - you can never finish tweaking and playing with a system :-) ) you will be in a much more powerful and satisfying situation than any quick-install could have given you. I just installed Red Hat Linux 8.0 (which I need for a University project) on my system onto my now triple-booting desktop machine. And, popular though it is, I think it falls into exactly the trap that I am describing. It tries to be all things to all people and automates the installation and configuration of services such that the new administrator ultimately has little or no understanding of what's going on. When you have a system that is being that 'easy', you start to end up with an OS like Windows where the administrator is limited by his configuration tools and is ultimately inconvienced by his convienent operating system. I do worry that some Linux distributions are falling into this trap, and are breading new generations of system administrators who don't have a basic enough understanding of what's going on to properly troubleshoot when things go wrong. And something _always_ goes wrong eventually. :-) Andrew. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 19 10: 3:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF6F37B401 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B34643E75 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:03:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20021119180341.LPIT1052.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@localhost.localdomain>; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:03:42 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gAIIwqd8053390; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:58:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gAIIwWqi053385; Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:58:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Eric Anderson Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat , Mark Murray Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org> <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DD7CF81.7030407@cream.org> <056001c28e60$2af21cf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <1037560276.1094.19.camel@skalman.campus.luth.se> <3DD7F107.DCE620A6@centtech.com> <3DD91EC8.3040105@centtech.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 18 Nov 2002 10:58:32 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3DD91EC8.3040105@centtech.com> Message-ID: Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson writes: > Me too.. I'm willing to organize it and get things going.. You might consider having two parts of "it". There is the testing, which some have already offerred to help with, and it sounds like Eric is willing to organize that. But I suspect what is needed more than that is to organize the resolution of problems detected by both the organized testers and by un-organized testers (AKA "users") so detected problems get fixed (and so developers don't have to spend as much time working with detectors of problems, both real and false alarms). Many people who find bugs in the field don't report them because they don't know about reporting mechanisms (PRs or freebsd-stable) or are afraid to deal with the gurus or have had bad or useless experiences. They are often unsure whether they have seen a bug or maybe it's only configuration or hardware problems. The people on -STABLE don't probably let many problems drop through the cracks unless the user is either very clear about the bug, has a fix, or is very persistant. So if someone is willing to do organizational-type work, I'd think it would be good to organize a team to field such user problems and get the testers to work with the user in duplicating the error in their test systems or determining whether it is a bug or not and have the tester (maybe user too) work with the developers to make sure it gets resolved. This same organization would track the resolution of problems found by organized testing. Maybe the PR system could be used by this organization, using a new value for PR "class" or "category". Users would be told to report OS stability problems to -STABLE (or -CURRENT) (or maybe the team's mailing list) and the team would be expected to get them into their tracking system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 11:54:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF8F37B404 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB7643E8A for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:54:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gALJs7c10435; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:54:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id gALJs6m01677; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:54:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gALJrwX01657; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:53:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3DDD39D6.3040700@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:53:58 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: Brad Knowles , Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021118192332.L19853-100000@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc G. Fournier wrote: [..snip..] > > > I think one of the things that would really help, if at all possible, is a > more compreshensive 'how to debug a kernel' document ... whenever mine > crashes, first place I go is the handbook and grab as much as I know to > grab, but if that could somehow be extended? > > For instance, the one thing I never clued into until Matt showed me was > using ps/pstat against my vmcore to see how much swap was in use, and what > processes were running when she crashed ... > > Basically, the more informed we, the debuggers/testers, can be, the easier > job of it the developers, who can fix it, will have ... Great idea - can you write something up about this? This would really help the efforts of the testers.. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Beware the fury of a patient man. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 12: 6: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57EDD37B401 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:05:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7B043E91 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:05:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gALK5oc10715; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:05:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id gALK5oO02535; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:05:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gALK5UX02462; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:05:38 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3DDD3C8A.2060802@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:05:30 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat , Mark Murray Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <200211190816.gAJ8GJaq015707@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: [..snip..] >> Mark Murray might be a good start, since he's the guy who >>convinced me that I need to take part in this process. ;-) > > > I'm not a very good manager, but I'll certainly give it a go. > Ok.. Well, how about let's start with a list of volunteers, and get a mailing list going (or use -qa). I'd also like to get a list of boxes those are willing to be used for this purpose - not donate, just willing to use for testing. Also, we need to organize what tasks are to be done and by whom. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Beware the fury of a patient man. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 21 13:39:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD43637B401 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:39:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B25F443EA9 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:39:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rob@pythonemproject.com) Received: from www.pythonemproject.com (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.63s) with SMTP id 023965 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:39:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3DDD5197.DFA6DD11@pythonemproject.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:35:19 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <200211190816.gAJ8GJaq015707@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3DDD3C8A.2060802@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > > Mark Murray wrote: > [..snip..] > >> Mark Murray might be a good start, since he's the guy who > >>convinced me that I need to take part in this process. ;-) > > > > > > I'm not a very good manager, but I'll certainly give it a go. > > > > Ok.. Well, how about let's start with a list of volunteers, and get a > mailing list going (or use -qa). > > I'd also like to get a list of boxes those are willing to be used for > this purpose - not donate, just willing to use for testing. > > Also, we need to organize what tasks are to be done and by whom. > > Eric I came late to this discussion. I assume we are talking DP-2. I have a -current partion on my Dell 8200 which was cvsup'd a month ago. Is there anything I can do to help? Also, is there a way to get DP-2 using cvsup instead of an iso? Thanks, Rob. -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 11:30:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3534A37B401 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:30:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB9943E3B for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:30:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 18FJVh-000JPQ-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:30:41 +0000 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gAMJUfPe023108 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:30:41 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gAMJUfrW023107 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:30:41 GMT Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:30:40 +0000 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan *18FJVh-000JPQ-00*vQYFHv9Wyok* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In the standard, it says control statements with only one statement executed should not have braces. I've heard it said that this could be a maintenance issue, since braces will need to be added if any other statements need to be grouped with that condition. Isn't it a good idea to add them the first time the statement is written, rather than counting on a future maintainer to do so? NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 11:53: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2817437B401 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:53:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from gis.net (home.gis.net [208.218.130.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA9BF43E6E for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:53:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pcable@slaudiovis.org) Received: from symplexity ([63.214.124.76]) by mail.gis.net; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:52:47 -0500 From: "Patrick Cable II" To: Subject: Sharing calendars? Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:52:15 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Rcpt-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all, I have a small problem. The superintendent of the high school I sort of work at (I'm a student doing an independent study on networking - but I'm pretty much in charge of all the Unix stuff since no one else knows how to use it, heh) wants to share his calendar that he has in Microsoft outlook with other people in his office. I'm told the only way to do that is by installing an exchange server - which I would rather not do, because then the district will switch all their email over to exchange, which wouldn't be cool (I'm in the process of implementing a qmail/vpopmail/etc solution) What can I do so that: a) The superintendent's secretary can see his calendar (and update it as well) b) The superintendent can synch it all with his palm pilot. Thanks in advance for your help! Patrick Cable II To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 13: 9:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ABE137B401 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:09:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from c3po.skynet.be (c3po.skynet.be [195.238.3.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB2B43EA3 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:09:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by c3po.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id gAML91703474; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:09:01 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:08:41 +0100 To: "Patrick Cable II" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Sharing calendars? Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:52 PM -0500 2002/11/22, Patrick Cable II wrote: > I have a small problem. The superintendent of the high school I sort of > work at (I'm a student doing an independent study on networking - but I'm > pretty much in charge of all the Unix stuff since no one else knows how to > use it, heh) wants to share his calendar that he has in Microsoft outlook > with other people in his office. I'm told the only way to do that is by > installing an exchange server - which I would rather not do, because then > the district will switch all their email over to exchange, which wouldn't be > cool (I'm in the process of implementing a qmail/vpopmail/etc solution) Check out Bynari & Amphora. You may have to run them under the Linuxlator in order to get them to work, however. Check out what the folks at Bynari software set up as their Insight Server configuration. Try replicating that, and it should work. At the very least, if you do decide to continue with qmail, make sure you turn off softupdates for that filesystem. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 13:29:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3FDC37B407 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-106-47.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.106.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A968943E88 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:29:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5D466C61; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:29:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C05CB12AC; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:29:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:29:12 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021122212912.GA27562@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 07:30:40PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > In the standard, it says control statements with only one statement executed > should not have braces. I've heard it said that this could be a maintenance > issue, since braces will need to be added if any other statements need to > be grouped with that condition. Isn't it a good idea to add them the first > time the statement is written, rather than counting on a future maintainer > to do so? Evidently the authors of style say "no". Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 13:45:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F8037B401 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:45:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-232-220-15.client.attbi.com [12.232.220.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9979D43EB3 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:45:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gAMLi5m9011094; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:44:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gAMLi52N011093; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:44:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:44:05 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Jonathon McKitrick : > In the standard, it says control statements with only one statement executed > should not have braces. I've heard it said that this could be a maintenance > issue, since braces will need to be added if any other statements need to > be grouped with that condition. Isn't it a good idea to add them the first > time the statement is written, rather than counting on a future maintainer > to do so? Your complaint is a specific form of ``I don't like $requirement in the style guide, can we change it?'' Everyone has a list of criticisms like this, and that would be fine if we all had the same set of beliefs about what the One True Style(9) should say. (I, for one, don't agree with your specific quibble.) The present style(9) is a compromise that we can all grudgingly agree on, because it's better than having different styles strewn all over the codebase. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 15: 3:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B400937B490 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:03:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail14.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 453E943E4A for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:03:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 5180 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2002 21:08:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail14.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 22 Nov 2002 21:08:12 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gAML832D043762; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:08:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:08:08 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Jonathon McKitrick Subject: RE: Style(9) question Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-Nov-2002 Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > In the standard, it says control statements with only one statement executed > should not have braces. I've heard it said that this could be a maintenance > issue, since braces will need to be added if any other statements need to > be grouped with that condition. Isn't it a good idea to add them the first > time the statement is written, rather than counting on a future maintainer > to do so? The reason to not put them in is to avoid wasting screen real-estate on mostly blank lines. You also errantly assume that you will always come back and add more statements later. :) -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 15:45:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E6737B401; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp09.wxs.nl (smtp09.wxs.nl [195.121.6.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6199743E9C; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:45:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from akruijff@dds.nl) Received: from cybertron.kruijff ([213.10.151.186]) by smtp09.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H604O501.3V4; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:45:41 +0100 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:42:06 +0100 From: Alex X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) Personal Reply-To: Alex X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <10525754683.20021123004206@dds.nl> To: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat" Subject: Re[2]: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? In-Reply-To: <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org> <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dear/Beste Anthony, Sunday, November 17, 2002, 10:59:37 AM, you wrote: > The most appropriate version of any operating system to run on your server > is the oldest one that meets your requirements. Otherwise you will spend > your life doing someone else's debugging. This policy doesn't help against security bugs. Only a couple of development tries are (officially) supported. All a cracker would have to do is read the bug warnings and use a good one to gain access to you system. I feel that a good production server should not be CURRENT or STABLE but the latest RELEASE on the STABLE tree, unless you got a good reason not to. -- Best regards/Met vriendelijke groet, Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 16: 8:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6319337B401 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-21.mail.nl.demon.net (post-21.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7929843EAA for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:08:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-21.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18FNqJ-00091F-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:08:15 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id A65DA832A for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:08:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 2D8261854 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:08:04 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id 8A44B225F7; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:08:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:08:04 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021123000804.GA2559@raggedclown.net> References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0500, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 22-Nov-2002 Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > > In the standard, it says control statements with only one statement executed > > should not have braces. I've heard it said that this could be a maintenance > > issue, since braces will need to be added if any other statements need to > > be grouped with that condition. Isn't it a good idea to add them the first > > time the statement is written, rather than counting on a future maintainer > > to do so? > > The reason to not put them in is to avoid wasting screen real-estate > on mostly blank lines. You also errantly assume that you will always > come back and add more statements later. :) > You could always... if(pigpoo == VERYSMELLY) { printf("That is what goes to make your bacon\n"); } /* :) */ -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 18: 7: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36FB037B401; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C7E243E6E; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:07:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18FPhG-000Lq7-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:07:02 +0000 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gAN271Pe024871; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:07:01 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gAN271WR024870; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:07:01 GMT Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:07:01 +0000 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021123020701.GA24845@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18FPhG-000Lq7-00*IHo7YmJmsWY* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0500, John Baldwin wrote: | The reason to not put them in is to avoid wasting screen real-estate | on mostly blank lines. You also errantly assume that you will always | come back and add more statements later. :) Ah, good answer. Thanks! I always preferred it this way, but most on my team use the braces. NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 18:24:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C7837B401 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FDAC43E88 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:24:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAN2OV980629 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:24:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <014901c29297$74dc8040$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org> <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <10525754683.20021123004206@dds.nl> Subject: Re: Re[2]: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:24:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alex writes: > This policy doesn't help against security bugs. You can apply patches to correct security bugs, or you can configure your system so that bugs are not relevant for your application. > Only a couple of development tries are (officially) > supported. All a cracker would have to do is read > the bug warnings and use a good one to gain access to > you system. Most security bugs are never exploited. Whether or not one fixes every single bug is a matter of judgement; it may not be risk- or cost-justified to fix a security bug if it means upgrading or replacing the entire operating system. Additionally, if bugs are very numerous, it might be worthwhile to consider changing vendors. > I feel that a good production server should not > be CURRENT or STABLE but the latest RELEASE on > the STABLE tree, unless you got a good reason not to. Having to upgrade 8000 of them at once is often a good reason not to. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 19:55:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C3537B408; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A97543EAA; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:55:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id gAN3tj913224; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 04:55:45 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 04:39:43 +0100 To: John Baldwin From: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: Style(9) question Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:08 PM -0500 2002/11/22, John Baldwin wrote: > The reason to not put them in is to avoid wasting screen real-estate > on mostly blank lines. You also errantly assume that you will always > come back and add more statements later. :) I'm sorry. Why do we care about screen real-estate and having mostly blank lines, if this might help us write more correct and secure programs? And might help us write code that can be more easily managed in the future? It's not like you're even arguing that this would cause source code bloat, because the number of extra bytes would actually be quite small. Maybe some white space leading up to the brace, but certainly nothing after it. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 21:48:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB5A37B401 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-21.mail.nl.demon.net (post-21.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFDD943E3B for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:48:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-21.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18FT9I-000I3S-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:48:12 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 01D4F832A for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:48:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 11E901854 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:48:00 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id F2577225F8; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:48:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:48:00 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021123054800.GB10380@raggedclown.net> References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021123020701.GA24845@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021123020701.GA24845@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 02:07:01AM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 04:08:08PM -0500, John Baldwin wrote: > | The reason to not put them in is to avoid wasting screen real-estate > | on mostly blank lines. You also errantly assume that you will always > | come back and add more statements later. :) > > Ah, good answer. Thanks! > I always preferred it this way, but most on my team use the braces. > Is it a good answer ? I find it an incredible one ! I don't actually use braces on a single-liners, so I am not arguing either way - although theoretically I think it is probably a good idea. But I learnt "C" out of thw white-book many years ago and I generally write in the style found there (with a few exceptions ...:) But I really cannot believe that the reason is space on the screen ! I would be more likely to believe it was just someone's decision, not necessarily with a rationale behind it. Maybe it was valid when code was written on DecWriters using ed(1). Having been involved in writing style guidelines they are always a compromise, the cause of many heated debates and disgruntled people. Indentation levels is another one people go into apoplexy over as well. Well my feeling is you need a set of style rules that people, however grudgingly have to accept for new source modules. If you are updating existing code I think it is only sensible to follow the style that the particular code uses. This is a practical matter, is it worth the time to re-arrange exisisting code (with there always being the chance of introducing new bugs by mistypes) ? Either that or insist all programs are post-processed through a "C" beautifier. Although I have yet to ever see one that deserves the word beauty in it's description. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 22:18:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC1637B401 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A168F43E91 for ; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:18:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0024.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.24] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FTcn-0003Kr-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:18:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDF1CEF.B800AC55@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:15:11 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Server or Desktop OS? References: <20021116232242.S23359-100000@hub.org> <04f801c28e20$0a3665b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <10525754683.20021123004206@dds.nl> <014901c29297$74dc8040$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Alex writes: > > This policy doesn't help against security bugs. > > You can apply patches to correct security bugs, or you can configure your > system so that bugs are not relevant for your application. Both of which take you away from the configuration of the system as it is shipped from the vendor. If you have to do a heck of a lot of work, that kind of makes it a dubious benefit to have the OS preinstalled on the hardware, which is the main argument in favor of Windows. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 22 22:49:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C7637B401; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA0FD43EA3; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:49:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0024.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.24] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FU6f-0001bW-00; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:49:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDF241B.FF30ACE2@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:45:47 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: John Baldwin , Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Style(9) question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 4:08 PM -0500 2002/11/22, John Baldwin wrote: > > The reason to not put them in is to avoid wasting screen real-estate > > on mostly blank lines. You also errantly assume that you will always > > come back and add more statements later. :) > > I'm sorry. Why do we care about screen real-estate and having > mostly blank lines, if this might help us write more correct and > secure programs? And might help us write code that can be more > easily managed in the future? Hard as this is to believe, some people don't have eidetic memories, and they're not just "faking it" so they can pretend not to remember some inconvenient fact. That means that they are limited to holding in their head only the maximum amount of data that can be displayed on a screen at a time, so the more non-whitespace data you can display in a limited amount of real-estate, the better. ;^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 1:55:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6010337B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:55:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A203143EA9 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 01:55:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18FX0L-000FWs-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:55:14 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id A3D8E832A for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:55:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id 8C8241854 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:55:01 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id 4183D225F8; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:55:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:55:02 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021123095502.GB11348@raggedclown.net> References: <3DDF241B.FF30ACE2@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DDF241B.FF30ACE2@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 10:45:47PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 4:08 PM -0500 2002/11/22, John Baldwin wrote: > > > The reason to not put them in is to avoid wasting screen real-estate > > > on mostly blank lines. You also errantly assume that you will always > > > come back and add more statements later. :) > > > > I'm sorry. Why do we care about screen real-estate and having > > mostly blank lines, if this might help us write more correct and > > secure programs? And might help us write code that can be more > > easily managed in the future? > > Hard as this is to believe, some people don't have eidetic memories, > and they're not just "faking it" so they can pretend not to remember > some inconvenient fact. > > That means that they are limited to holding in their head only the > maximum amount of data that can be displayed on a screen at a time, > so the more non-whitespace data you can display in a limited amount > of real-estate, the better. > Psychologically speaking I think this is not necessarily true. Programs aside there can be too much information on a screen, a multitude of web-sites are like this. The logical conclusion (although I don't think it is the one you are trying to make btw) is that you should have multiple statements on a line. I am fairly keen on a the rather ad-hoc "rule" that if you cannot see the whole of a "C" function on the screen at the same time then you need to re-think it out. The exception to this being functions that are simply decision-makers, such as a long "switch" that simply sets flags etc. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 2:16:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C0C37B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:16:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 245AB43E91 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:16:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0024.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.24] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FXLG-0003Ad-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:16:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3DDF52B9.88E852F6@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:04:41 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Style(9) question References: <3DDF241B.FF30ACE2@mindspring.com> <20021123095502.GB11348@raggedclown.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > That means that they are limited to holding in their head only the > > maximum amount of data that can be displayed on a screen at a time, > > so the more non-whitespace data you can display in a limited amount > > of real-estate, the better. > > Psychologically speaking I think this is not necessarily true. > Programs aside there can be too much information on a screen, a > multitude of web-sites are like this. The logical conclusion (although I > don't think it is the one you are trying to make btw) is that you should > have multiple statements on a line. Perl. 8-). > I am fairly keen on a the rather ad-hoc "rule" that if you cannot see the > whole of a "C" function on the > screen at the same time then you need to re-think it out. The exception > to this being functions that are simply decision-makers, such as a long > "switch" that simply sets flags etc. You must have literally wet yourself the first time you read tcp_input(). 8-) 8-). My take on this is that some problems are complicated, and, due to bad design and legacy issues, or just plain performance requirements, end up needing complicated solutions. For these solutions, there are a limited number of people that can deal with maintaining or fixing that code: the set of people able to keep that level of complexity straight in their heads long enough to deal with the issues facing them. It's not very egalitarian, I know: I'm supposed to say that "all people are equally gifted/challenged", and then we adjust the world so that everyone can perform at an acceptable level in all jobs, but, frankly, that's just not true: there's some code that most people should kee their grubby paws out of, and That's Just The Way It Is(tm). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 2:37:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183C237B404 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:37:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1811B43EB2 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:37:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cls@raggedclown.net) Received: from [212.238.197.102] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 18FXfM-000IA0-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:37:36 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id E067E832A for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:37:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from willow.raggedclown.net (willow.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.10]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [dawn]) with ESMTP id C827B1854 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:37:23 +0100 (CET) Received: by willow.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [willow], from userid 1009) id 9126F225F8; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:37:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:37:24 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021123103724.GA11632@raggedclown.net> References: <3DDF241B.FF30ACE2@mindspring.com> <20021123095502.GB11348@raggedclown.net> <3DDF52B9.88E852F6@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DDF52B9.88E852F6@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 02:04:41AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > > That means that they are limited to holding in their head only the > > > maximum amount of data that can be displayed on a screen at a time, > > > so the more non-whitespace data you can display in a limited amount > > > of real-estate, the better. > > > > Psychologically speaking I think this is not necessarily true. > > Programs aside there can be too much information on a screen, a > > multitude of web-sites are like this. The logical conclusion (although I > > don't think it is the one you are trying to make btw) is that you should > > have multiple statements on a line. > > Perl. 8-). > Well the deign of Perl (or perhaps the lack of it!) is so eccentric that I suppose programming in it might as well maintain that status-quo :) > > I am fairly keen on a the rather ad-hoc "rule" that if you cannot see the > > whole of a "C" function on the > > screen at the same time then you need to re-think it out. The exception > > to this being functions that are simply decision-makers, such as a long > > "switch" that simply sets flags etc. > > You must have literally wet yourself the first time you read > tcp_input(). 8-) 8-). > Oh I think I have seen enough code in my overlong programming career to not be easily shocked, aesthetically offended maybe, shocked no. > My take on this is that some problems are complicated, and, due > to bad design and legacy issues, or just plain performance > requirements, end up needing complicated solutions. For these > solutions, there are a limited number of people that can deal > with maintaining or fixing that code: the set of people able to > keep that level of complexity straight in their heads long enough > to deal with the issues facing them. Well, I don't necessarily disagree with the point you are making, but this is the very reason that programmers go loopy at a young age. You know they learn to write a bubble-sort and then sudddenly they are shoved into program maintenance...Unfortunately these limited numbers of people often grow old and die, find other jobs, have nervous breakdowns, have a low ability to explain ... etc etc... > > It's not very egalitarian, I know: I'm supposed to say that "all > people are equally gifted/challenged", and then we adjust the world > so that everyone can perform at an acceptable level in all jobs, > but, frankly, that's just not true: there's some code that most > people should kee their grubby paws out of, and That's Just The > Way It Is(tm). Well, I suppose people are gifted in different ways. I can design and write programs but I can barely bang a nail in straight into a block of wood. Oh there is definitely some code not meant for normal mortals. I would hasten to add though, that the ability to design and write good programs is often not accompanied by great insights in other areas. I would name a few famous names (but I will not). Two very famous people, not related to the FreeBSD project of course, spring to mind.. :) -- Regards Cliff Sarginson The Netherlands [ This mail has been checked as virus-free ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 7:55:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EFE637B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 07:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu (williams.mc.Vanderbilt.Edu [160.129.208.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 48D0843E4A for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 07:55:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drew-public@poured.net) Received: (qmail 3985 invoked by uid 19192); 23 Nov 2002 15:56:11 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sharing calendars? References: Reply-To: drew-dated-1038498271.901d05@poured.net Gmane-From: drew@poured.net Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:56:10 -0600 In-Reply-To: (Brad Knowles's message of "Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:08:41 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) XEmacs/21.4 (Military Intelligence, sparc-sun-solaris2.7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Drew Raines X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.65+ (Gallahadion) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > At 2:52 PM -0500 2002/11/22, Patrick Cable II wrote: > >> (I'm in the process of implementing a qmail/vpopmail/etc solution) > > At the very least, if you do decide to continue with qmail, make > sure you turn off softupdates for that filesystem. By ``that'' filesystem, he means /var/qmail/queue. You can keep everything else on a vanilla FFS partition. It's the same recommendation for any mail queue whose contents you care about. Brad's just relaying helpful advice from DJB's site: http://cr.yp.to/qmail/faq/reliability.html#filesystems I'm sure you've already read the FAQ, though, if you're in the process of implementing the aforementioned scenario. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 11:47: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18EA537B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:47:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B8C43E9C for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:47:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with ESMTP id <20021123194700053004ahq2e>; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:47:00 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gANJlYd8044278; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:47:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gANJlNTc044275; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:47:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: David Schultz Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Style(9) question References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 23 Nov 2002 11:47:23 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20021122214405.GA11011@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Message-ID: <8gof8g83w4.f8g@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 49 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz writes: > Your complaint is a specific form of ``I don't like $requirement > in the style guide, can we change it?'' Everyone has a list of > criticisms like this, and that would be fine if we all had the > same set of beliefs about what the One True Style(9) should say. > (I, for one, don't agree with your specific quibble.) The present > style(9) is a compromise that we can all grudgingly agree on, > because it's better than having different styles strewn all over > the codebase. That last sentence has two problems. The first part is only true because the grudging agreement defines the "we". The second part is only true for some people. Others (almost all, I suspect) agree on it not because it's better or worse than having different styles, but because they need to "go along to get along" in response to a semi- civilized form of mob rule. In addition, I'll argue that having a single style is better only in particular cases and that the issue of "better than having different styles?" should be given priority over which style is best, in each case. The OP's complaint might better have been a form of: "there are too many requirements in the style guide, and this is one example of a requirement which, regardless of the merit of the particular style in each developer's mind (or that of whoever controls the style guide), costs more than it is worth for these reasons: "1) People waste more time fixing intrusions of the illegal style than would be spent by people illegally changing other people's style if there were no requirement (those changes being a well-known no-no). "2) The additional requirement screens out some potential developers who won't agree (even grudgingly) to develop under one too many requirements which they consider lame and over-burdensome. "3) The assumed benefit of a particular standard style has not been demonstrated, the style being more likely to be just a idiosyncratic artifact of a once-influential developer who got his way as a sort of ego-payment for services rendered." Even the fact that a particular style has 90% who strongly prefer it versus 10% who weakly dislike it shouldn't be a reason for making the style a requirement. There should be a demonstrable benefit of having the requirement. There would clearly be problems if indentation size was not standardized. But before arguing whether single statements should be bracketed or not, the need for any rule at all should be argued. I happen to think that benefits of standardizing this particular style are smaller than trouble it causes. It's easy for people to deal with a mixture of styles in this case. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 14:57:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3993137B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:57:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8BA543E4A for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:57:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0259.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.4] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FjDF-0002Ki-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:57:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE00781.F47E59A1@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:56:01 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: drew-dated-1038498271.901d05@poured.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sharing calendars? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Drew Raines wrote: > Brad Knowles writes: > > At the very least, if you do decide to continue with qmail, make > > sure you turn off softupdates for that filesystem. > > By ``that'' filesystem, he means /var/qmail/queue. You can keep > everything else on a vanilla FFS partition. It's the same > recommendation for any mail queue whose contents you care about. Why are soft updates bad for mail queues, in your opinions? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 15:45:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5B137B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from hardtime.linuxman.net (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C57B43EA3 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gh@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hardtime.linuxman.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gAO0pK814866; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:51:21 -0600 Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 1012) id D8B821F31; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:45:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:45:08 -0600 From: dmk To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail) Message-ID: <20021123234508.GF11676@over-yonder.net> References: <200211232029.gANKTOs50088@flip.jhs.private> <02d701c29337$08749e60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <02d701c29337$08749e60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moving to -chat, for the sake of my blood pressure... Anthony Atkielski said something like: > Julian writes: > > > Expanded Reality ;-) > > UNIX is a poor choice for the intellectually > > lazy, or incompetent; Usually than 50% of PC > > users are intellectually lazy, or incompetent; > > So UNIX is a poor choice for these people's desktop. > > The last statement is true. The previous two are not. Prove it. > Your disdain for people who happen not to share your interests or obsessions > is an excellent illustration of precisely the attitude that impedes the > advocacy of operating systems such as UNIX. Are you sure the impediment is not your cluttering the -advocacy list with this clearly far off-topic thread? > One reason FreeBSD and many other > operating systems remain only marginally present in many environments is > that their primary supporters are socially na?ve and gratuitously aggressive > young males. Oh? Prove it. > Worry not ... no mass migration from Microsoft operating systems to FreeBSD > is likely in the foreseeable future; and even if all other obstacles were > overcome to such a migration, the attitudes of people like yourself would > still prevent it. You say that like it's a bad thing. > > Dumb fumble & click lazy losers are best left > > to their MS rip off prices, bootlegs, viruses > > & crashes. > > See above. > > 6500 ported FreeBSD packages inc. many window > > managers gives a wide choice of desktops ... > > People don't want a wide choice of desktops. They just want a machine that > does the job, and then they're done. I use FreeBSD because it does the job. > If any of them are reading this thread, I'm sure you've scared them off > pretty effectively--more so than I can realistically counter with my own > meager dose of unemotional rationality, I'm afraid. Forgive me, for this last line caused me to snicker. Thank you for the entertainment, Anthony. dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 15:47:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7569837B406 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:47:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (24-159-234-52.jvl.wi.charter.com [24.159.234.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5DE543E3B for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:47:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mkm@marvin.bsdng.org) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (marvin [127.0.0.1]) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gANNkHa9001509 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:46:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mkm@marvin.bsdng.org) Received: (from mkm@localhost) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gANNkGTp001508 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:46:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:46:16 -0600 From: Kyle Martin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: YAS9Q (yet another style nine question) Message-ID: <20021123234616.GA1450@marvin.bsdng.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just wondering what .vimrc hackery some people have come up with to help automate style(9) coding. Yes I know you (x)emacs fans have probably done the same, but I'm mostly interested in vim, don't ask why since id rather not like to start an editor war. :-) -- Kyle Martin || mkm@IEEE.org || http://www.BSDng.org "Profanity is the only language all programmers understand." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 16:43: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6215237B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:43:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from williams.mc.vanderbilt.edu (williams.mc.Vanderbilt.Edu [160.129.208.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A5E9943E9C for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:43:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drew-public@poured.net) Received: (qmail 4274 invoked by uid 19192); 24 Nov 2002 00:43:12 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: mail queues on softdep (was Re: Sharing calendars?) References: <3DE00781.F47E59A1@mindspring.com> Reply-To: drew-dated-1038529607.6fb7a6@poured.net Gmane-From: drew@poured.net Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:43:10 -0600 In-Reply-To: <3DE00781.F47E59A1@mindspring.com> (Terry Lambert's message of "Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:56:01 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) XEmacs/21.4 (Military Intelligence, sparc-sun-solaris2.7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Drew Raines X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.65+ (Gallahadion) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Drew Raines wrote: >> Brad Knowles writes: >> > At the very least, if you do decide to continue with qmail, >> > make sure you turn off softupdates for that filesystem. >> >> By ``that'' filesystem, he means /var/qmail/queue. You can keep >> everything else on a vanilla FFS partition. It's the same >> recommendation for any mail queue whose contents you care about. > > Why are soft updates bad for mail queues, in your opinions? My opinions aren't authoritative because I've never (knowingly) experienced it, but apparently a message could be lost if it's accepted by the MTA and there's a system failure before the metadata gets written to the disk. This could happen with sync, too, I guess, but the latency is increased with soft updates. There might be characteristics of qmail's queue which causes it to be more susceptible than others, but the logic seems to apply to all. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 17:16: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF46337B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCAB143E6E for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:15:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id gAO1Fv993163 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:15:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <032101c29357$0aa68c00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <200211232029.gANKTOs50088@flip.jhs.private> <02d701c29337$08749e60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021123234508.GF11676@over-yonder.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:15:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org dmk writes: > Prove it. Why must I "prove" my opinions? Do you prove yours? A proven opinion is not an opinion ... it's a fact. > Are you sure the impediment is not your cluttering > the -advocacy list with this clearly far off-topic thread? Yes. Additionally, I've tried to keep the thread on topic, but others appear to have different ideas (e.g., moving from the suitability of FreeBSD as an OS for various purposes to discussions of Outlook Express). > Oh? Prove it. That has already been done. > You say that like it's a bad thing. It's neither good nor bad; but there seems little point to "advocacy" if it does not actually encourage what it putatively advocates. > I use FreeBSD because it does the job. Most people use Windows for the same reason. > Forgive me, for this last line caused me > to snicker. Is that bad? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 18:14:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F3637B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from vador.skynet.be (vador.skynet.be [195.238.3.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19AD243EAA for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:14:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by vador.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id gAO2EBm15465; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 03:14:11 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20021123054800.GB10380@raggedclown.net> References: <20021122193040.GA23078@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021123020701.GA24845@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021123054800.GB10380@raggedclown.net> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:17:47 +0100 To: Cliff Sarginson From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Style(9) question Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:48 AM +0100 2002/11/23, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > Well my feeling is you need a set of style rules that people, however > grudgingly have to accept for new source modules. If you are updating > existing code I think it is only sensible to follow the style that the > particular code uses. This is an argument that I can accept. I may not like it, but I can accept it. The standard says that we shall do things in a certain way, and we adhere to the standard. Period. Now, this doesn't mean that we don't occasionally go back and revisit some of the things in the standard, and decide if they are still applicable. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 18:25:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD44737B401; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:25:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9840343E4A; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:25:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id gAO2PHd04376; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 03:25:17 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3DDF241B.FF30ACE2@mindspring.com> References: <3DDF241B.FF30ACE2@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:23:53 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Style(9) question Cc: Brad Knowles , John Baldwin , Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:45 PM -0800 2002/11/22, Terry Lambert wrote: > That means that they are limited to holding in their head only the > maximum amount of data that can be displayed on a screen at a time, > so the more non-whitespace data you can display in a limited amount > of real-estate, the better. I know I cut off the smiley. I know. On the serious side, this isn't a bad argument. I don't think it's as good as "we follow the standard because it is the standard", but it's not bad. However, I would observe that screens are getting larger, windows should be getting larger, and you should be able to have more stuff on screen at once. Indeed, I would argue that perhaps the problem is that there is too much stuff on screen at once, and that this has been a problem for some time. In music, the silences are just as important, if not more important, than the notes. In print publications, proper use of white space is just as important as the writing. I submit that in coding, less dense spaces caused by things like braces can help improve the overall readability of the program, and thus the probability of being able to more correctly maintain it. Or do you really want single-line programs that comprise tens of thousands of kilobytes (or megabytes) of memory? After all, if the goal is to cram everything together onto the smallest number of lines possible, we can just remove all whitespace everywhere. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 19:14:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F4D37B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5E543E4A for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:14:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id gAO3EY918199; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 04:14:34 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3DE00781.F47E59A1@mindspring.com> References: <3DE00781.F47E59A1@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 04:01:43 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Sharing calendars? Cc: drew-dated-1038498271.901d05@poured.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:56 PM -0800 2002/11/23, Terry Lambert wrote: > Why are soft updates bad for mail queues, in your opinions? In general, softupdates are very good for mail queues. Indeed, this is the case for which softupdates is almost ideal. However, both qmail and exim make some assumptions about the underlying filesystems which are not valid when those filesystems are using softupdates. Therefore, if you are going to use either exim or qmail on *BSD, you need to turn off softupdates on the respective mail queue partitions. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 19:14:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 655CC37B417 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C5443E4A for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id gAO3Ed918276; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 04:14:39 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3DE00781.F47E59A1@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 04:12:50 +0100 To: drew-dated-1038529607.6fb7a6@poured.net From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: mail queues on softdep (was Re: Sharing calendars?) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Drew Raines Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:43 PM -0600 2002/11/23, Drew Raines wrote: >> Why are soft updates bad for mail queues, in your opinions? > > My opinions aren't authoritative because I've never (knowingly) > experienced it, but apparently a message could be lost if it's > accepted by the MTA and there's a system failure before the > metadata gets written to the disk. Softupdates gives us the ability to optimize out certain types of very fast file creation/deletion pairs, such as happens with mail messages being in the queue for only the briefest moments of time between our accepting the message and our successfully delivering the message to the next hop. Yes, softupdates does slightly increase the probability of loss of individual messages, if there should be a crash at a critical time. However, for those MTAs which take care to make sure that they perform certain file operations in a certain order (e.g., sendmail & postfix), this is generally not considered to be a violation of RFC 2821, section 6.1: 6.1 Reliable Delivery and Replies by Email When the receiver-SMTP accepts a piece of mail (by sending a "250 OK" message in response to DATA), it is accepting responsibility for delivering or relaying the message. It must take this responsibility seriously. It MUST NOT lose the message for frivolous reasons, such as because the host later crashes or because of a predictable resource shortage. For those MTAs which do not take care to perform those file operations in a certain order (e.g., qmail & exim), this is not true. They are inherently incompatible with softupdates, and in order to comply with this section of the RFC, you must either not use them, or you must turn off softupdates. > This could happen with sync, too, I guess, but the latency is > increased with soft updates. There might be characteristics of > qmail's queue which causes it to be more susceptible than others, > but the logic seems to apply to all. This is a specific problem with qmail and exim. This is not a general problem with softupdates as a whole. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 20: 4:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EAE037B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-232-220-15.client.attbi.com [12.232.220.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575F143E3B for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:04:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gAO44HUf002105; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:04:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gAO44GCf002104; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:04:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:04:16 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , drew-dated-1038498271.901d05@poured.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sharing calendars? Message-ID: <20021124040416.GA2037@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert , drew-dated-1038498271.901d05@poured.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3DE00781.F47E59A1@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Brad Knowles : > At 2:56 PM -0800 2002/11/23, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Why are soft updates bad for mail queues, in your opinions? > > In general, softupdates are very good for mail queues. Indeed, > this is the case for which softupdates is almost ideal. > > However, both qmail and exim make some assumptions about the > underlying filesystems which are not valid when those filesystems are > using softupdates. Therefore, if you are going to use either exim or > qmail on *BSD, you need to turn off softupdates on the respective > mail queue partitions. Then they're making assumptions that are not valid for many filesystems. This is not a difficult problem to solve: If you want to ensure that a certain file has been committed to stable storage before you proceed, you use fsync(2). I thought most mailers did this. As a side note, someone pointed out to me a while ago that Linux has an incorrect implementation of fsync(2), such that the parent directory of the fsync'd file isn't guaranteed to be written. Maybe they fixed that by now, but that could be one situation in which you have to be more careful. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 20:48:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64BE737B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:48:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-89.apple.com [17.250.248.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C31C43E4A for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:48:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp02.mac.com (asmtp02-qfe3 [10.13.10.66]) by smtpout.mac.com (8.12.2/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id gAO4mF9V001740 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([64.157.65.233]) by asmtp02.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H62DCE00.SAM; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:48:14 -0800 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:48:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Sharing calendars? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: To: "Patrick Cable II" From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Webdav maybe? On Friday, November 22, 2002, at 02:52 PM, Patrick Cable II wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a small problem. The superintendent of the high school I sort > of > work at (I'm a student doing an independent study on networking - but > I'm > pretty much in charge of all the Unix stuff since no one else knows > how to > use it, heh) wants to share his calendar that he has in Microsoft > outlook > with other people in his office. I'm told the only way to do that is by > installing an exchange server - which I would rather not do, because > then > the district will switch all their email over to exchange, which > wouldn't be > cool (I'm in the process of implementing a qmail/vpopmail/etc solution) > > What can I do so that: > a) The superintendent's secretary can see his calendar (and update > it as > well) > b) The superintendent can synch it all with his palm pilot. > > > Thanks in advance for your help! > > Patrick Cable II > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 (Build 349) Beta iQA/AwUBPeBaGueV8VtPCL3dEQL94wCgqpeoP1dfh2t4QPspLjwUWXeMiqQAn1iW GZWnk63/4OCoeyneFd3ynKWY =fv9F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 22:14:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69AD37B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A3543E4A for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:14:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0280.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.25] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Fq2b-0005Yu-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:14:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE06DE9.D3CC595F@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:12:57 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: drew-dated-1038529607.6fb7a6@poured.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mail queues on softdep (was Re: Sharing calendars?) References: <3DE00781.F47E59A1@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Drew Raines wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Drew Raines wrote: > >> Brad Knowles writes: > >> > At the very least, if you do decide to continue with qmail, > >> > make sure you turn off softupdates for that filesystem. > >> > >> By ``that'' filesystem, he means /var/qmail/queue. You can keep > >> everything else on a vanilla FFS partition. It's the same > >> recommendation for any mail queue whose contents you care about. > > > > Why are soft updates bad for mail queues, in your opinions? > > My opinions aren't authoritative because I've never (knowingly) > experienced it, but apparently a message could be lost if it's > accepted by the MTA and there's a system failure before the > metadata gets written to the disk. OK. I understand. The answer is that sendmail will fsync the files, so it's not a probleem, before before giving the "250 Accepted for delivery", since that response means that the data has been committed to stable storage, and your system accepts complete responsibility for its reliable delivery. > This could happen with sync, too, I guess, but the latency is > increased with soft updates. There might be characteristics of > qmail's queue which causes it to be more susceptible than others, > but the logic seems to apply to all. Yes, it would have to be qmail not making the system call needed to commit the data to stable storage, before giving the "250" back to the sending system. Technically, qmail is in violation of the RFC, if indeed this is a problem. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 22:34:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993A837B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEC843E3B for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:34:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0280.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.25] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FqLd-0003Wq-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:34:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE072A1.5AEE4772@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:33:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail) References: <200211232029.gANKTOs50088@flip.jhs.private> <02d701c29337$08749e60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021123234508.GF11676@over-yonder.net> <032101c29357$0aa68c00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > dmk writes: > > I use FreeBSD because it does the job. > > Most people use Windows for the same reason. Most people use Windows because that's what came with the machine, and they had no choice in the matter. Why don't you Microsofties fight against Linux instead of FreeBSD? They're the ones stealing all of your marketshare (Hooray for India!). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 22:40:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9A837B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4930743E3B for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:40:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0280.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.25] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18FqRL-0000lx-00; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:40:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3DE07402.B4CBCADE@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:38:58 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: drew-dated-1038498271.901d05@poured.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sharing calendars? References: <3DE00781.F47E59A1@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 2:56 PM -0800 2002/11/23, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Why are soft updates bad for mail queues, in your opinions? > > In general, softupdates are very good for mail queues. Indeed, > this is the case for which softupdates is almost ideal. > > However, both qmail and exim make some assumptions about the > underlying filesystems which are not valid when those filesystems are > using softupdates. Therefore, if you are going to use either exim or > qmail on *BSD, you need to turn off softupdates on the respective > mail queue partitions. It would be nice if they were written to assume nothing more than POSIX compliance of the underlying implementation. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 22:50:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191C937B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp7.jaring.my (smtp7.jaring.my [61.6.32.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE9143EAA for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:50:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kaeru@pd.jaring.my) Received: from [61.6.121.111] (j97.crc32.jaring.my [61.6.121.111]) by smtp7.jaring.my (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id gAO6o6717652 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:50:08 +0800 (MYT) Subject: newbie question about make and include files From: Khairil Yusof To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-/jQwU17OAUTOYolYcHCz" Organization: Message-Id: <1038119825.47127.115.camel@daemon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0 Date: 24 Nov 2002 14:49:44 +0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=-/jQwU17OAUTOYolYcHCz Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure if this is the right place to ask, if not please point me in the right direction. I've been trying to compile some small programs but I come across errors with include headers: $gcc -s -O3 -funroll-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -mpentium -O2 -pipe -march=3Dpentiumpro -c intro.c -lggi In file included from intro.c:24: intro.h:25: ggi.h: No such file or directory intro.h has: #include I have the required files (ggi.h) at: /usr/local/include/ggi but that isn't included (only /usr/include) where do I set this variable?=20 Playing around a symlink in usr/include confirms my hunch that /usr/local/include isn't being included. after that I get this: /usr/libexec/elf/ld: cannot find -lggi After reading man 1 gcc, I see that it's trying to link to the ggi library. Again this is in /usr/local/lib not /usr/lib I couldn't find anything in the developers handbook or porters handbook about these settings. Where can I read up more on them? Any pointers would be much appreciated. --=20 Khairil Yusof --=-/jQwU17OAUTOYolYcHCz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQA94HORDAqnLW/+/X8RApsIAJ9VQiILpkHzRqK4za43TFzF8IfNwgCguJkG fY4m3wmtdNcHRCT4COFkjv0= =OTii -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-/jQwU17OAUTOYolYcHCz-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 22:54:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E7737B401; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:54:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C6B43E4A; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:54:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Fqev-0004XI-00; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 06:54:25 +0000 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gAO6sOPe049436; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 06:54:24 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gAO6sO2i049435; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 06:54:24 GMT Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 06:54:24 +0000 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Style(9) question Message-ID: <20021124065423.GA48968@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <3DDF241B.FF30ACE2@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18Fqev-0004XI-00*LjXIkfYDDr.* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 02:23:53AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: | I submit that in coding, less dense spaces caused by things like | braces can help improve the overall readability of the program, and | thus the probability of being able to more correctly maintain it. This is exactly the argument put forth by 'Code Complete.' The idea is to use whitespace (blank lines, specifically) to break code into meaningful paragraphs. One interesting statistic was that the ideal ratio of blank lines to code was 8%-16%, or one blank line every 6.25-12.5 lines. Any more blank lines than that, and the study showed that debugging time increased dramatically. I'd be curious to know why. This same book advocates using braces for single-line conditionals as well. The team I'm on tends toward the verbose, while I tend to be more terse. However, blank lines seems to be my exception. Visually, it makes more sense to help the mind absorb information in meaningful patterns than simply trying to fit as much as possible. jm -- My other computer is your Windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 23 23:38:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7A6537B401 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (24-159-234-52.jvl.wi.charter.com [24.159.234.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE7D243E4A for ; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:38:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mkm@marvin.bsdng.org) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (marvin [127.0.0.1]) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gAO7bea9004413; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:37:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mkm@marvin.bsdng.org) Received: (from mkm@localhost) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gAO7beRx004412; Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:37:40 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:37:40 -0600 From: Kyle Martin To: Khairil Yusof Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbie question about make and include files Message-ID: <20021124073740.GB1450@marvin.bsdng.org> References: <1038119825.47127.115.camel@daemon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1038119825.47127.115.camel@daemon.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 02:49:44PM +0800, Khairil Yusof wrote: > Subject: newbie question about make and include files > From: Khairil Yusof > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Date: 24 Nov 2002 14:49:44 +0800 > > Not sure if this is the right place to ask, if not please point me in > the right direction. > > I've been trying to compile some small programs but I come across errors > with include headers: > > $gcc -s -O3 -funroll-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -mpentium -O2 -pipe > -march=pentiumpro -c intro.c -lggi > > In file included from intro.c:24: > intro.h:25: ggi.h: No such file or directory > > intro.h has: > > #include > > I have the required files (ggi.h) at: > > /usr/local/include/ggi > but that isn't included (only /usr/include) where do I set this > variable? adding include directories can be done with -I, ie: -I/usr/local/include > Playing around a symlink in usr/include confirms my hunch that > /usr/local/include isn't being included. > > after that I get this: > > /usr/libexec/elf/ld: cannot find -lggi > > After reading man 1 gcc, I see that it's trying to link to the ggi > library. Again this is in /usr/local/lib not /usr/lib the library directorys can be specified just like the include directories, but with -L, ie -L/usr/local/lib -- Kyle Martin || mkm@IEEE.org || http://www.BSDng.org "Profanity is the only language all programmers understand." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message