From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 7:22: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095C037B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 07:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2051043ED8 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 07:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18Q7vV-000LPi-00; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:22:01 +0000 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gBMFM1Pe039942; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:22:01 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gBMFM1Pn039941; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:22:01 GMT Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:22:00 +0000 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's momentum and future prospects Message-ID: <20021222152200.GA39388@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20021222034806.GA34537@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021222064026.GA421@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021222064026.GA421@papagena.rockefeller.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18Q7vV-000LPi-00*lTIsHtT11C.* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Dec 22, 2002 at 01:40:26AM -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: | Jonathon McKitrick wrote: | > I recently read that the new Mandrake licensing plans for commercial will | > allow modification of the source without requiring they be released. The | > article remarks how much that is like the BSD license. | | ITYM this issue: | http://www.ofb.biz/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=186 | If so, (a) it's not about linux itself, (b) even so, you totally | misunderstood him. I guess I should have clarified that it only applied to the one Mandrake specific product they are using as their flagship commercial product. But the point was that the reference to the BSD license once again reminds us how fortunate we are we don't have to dance around this issue with BSD products. It's taking quite a while for Linux to develop a decent business model that doesn't depend on hardware sales. But as you mentioned, a Linux/BSD or BSD/GPL debate is pointless. | FreeBSD will survive. Linux will survive. Use what you like... I guess I was just looking for the confirmation that BSD *does* have the momentum to survive, as well as enough new 'technology' as MSFT would put it, to make it a worthwhile alternative choice, not just an also-ran alternative OS that is always playing catch-up. And from the other responses, 5.0 is going to be awesome, so I'm looking forward to it. jm -- My other computer is your Windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 9:33:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60D2237B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:33:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB2A43ED8 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:33:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b206.otenet.gr [212.205.244.214]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBMHXZQK010468; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:33:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBMHXYlG017366; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:33:34 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gBMHSr9X017275; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:28:53 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:28:53 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's momentum and future prospects Message-ID: <20021222172853.GC16833@gothmog.gr> References: <20021222034806.GA34537@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021222064026.GA421@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20021222065216.GA468@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021222065216.GA468@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-12-22 01:52, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Meanwhile, stability under extreme loads (which may occur 0.1% of > the time) may be a priority for servers, but for desktop machines > and "numbercrunching" machines, raw performance the remaining 99.9% > of the time is far more important. Even on uniprocessor machines, > linux sometimes "feels" faster, if (or because?) it's somewhat less > solid (eg the async-mounted filesystem, etc), and these perceptions > eventually do influence user choice... Yup. I have heard the argument "but it feels faster" many times from Linux-using acquaintances & friends. This doesn't make the user choise any more correct or wrong though. The "feel" is not a very objective way of measuring things, and choises based on the general feel of a system are sometimes .. well .. unlucky? :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 9:43:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79BBD37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:43:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ECA543EE6 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:43:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b206.otenet.gr [212.205.244.214]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBMHfAQK016859; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:41:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBMHf9lG017471; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:41:09 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gBMHf85Z017470; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:41:08 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:41:08 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Peter Kieser Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's momentum and future prospects Message-ID: <20021222174108.GD16833@gothmog.gr> References: <20021221231417.GB32071@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <001101c2a948$2034b5e0$c601a8c0@silverdollar> <20021222034806.GA34537@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <000c01c2a98e$fcd590a0$c601a8c0@silverdollar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000c01c2a98e$fcd590a0$c601a8c0@silverdollar> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-12-21 23:51, Peter Kieser wrote: > On the other hand, my favourite feature of FreeBSD is the Kernel > Configuration, it has a nice GENERIC kernel, as Linux does not.. That's nice indeed. I like the way that the kernel is configured in the BSD world a whole lot better. I find it a lot easier to edit a simple text file, comment this here, uncomment that elsewhere, than the `Linux wway' which seems to involve a lot of struggling with menu options (at least, the last time I checked). > Where all the hardware you would probably need is in the > configuration file already, also even if you have everything in the > kernel is really not all that bloated. This is not really very true, I'm afraid. The FreeBSD kernel takes more disk space in most cases. The memory footprint is something I'm not fit to talk about. But I can see the following: freebsd5 % ls -l /boot/kernel/kernel -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 3076790 Dec 22 02:30 /boot/kernel/kernel linux-2.4.17 % ls -l /boot/kernel -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 733501 Feb 2 2002 kernel The file sizes are very different. Of course, this depends on the configuration of the kernels, and this particular Linux kernel is trimmed down for efficiency (it needs to be able to support an IRC server), but the kernel files are more or less of the same size as most of the kernels I've seen on these two platforms. - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 10:13:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE58F37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 10:13:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.65.60]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 10A2543EDC for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 10:13:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from szorcc@gmx.net) Received: (qmail 16031 invoked by uid 0); 22 Dec 2002 18:13:13 -0000 Received: from pd9e03c4b.dip.t-dialin.net (HELO jla-015) (217.224.60.75) by mail.gmx.net (mp003-rz3) with SMTP; 22 Dec 2002 18:13:13 -0000 From: Szorcc To: Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:58:33 +0100 X-Mailer: Vivian Mail [327.0209010] Subject: root on InterJet II Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <20021222181317.10A2543EDC@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi everybody, is there anybody out there who can tell me how can I get root= access on a Whistle InterJet II? Thx. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 11: 2: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5FDE37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:01:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D7643EE5 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:01:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev11k.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.52] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18QBML-0002uU-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:01:57 -0800 Received: (qmail 3058 invoked by uid 1001); 22 Dec 2002 19:01:54 -0000 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:01:54 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's momentum and future prospects Message-ID: <20021222190153.GA2873@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20021222034806.GA34537@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021222064026.GA421@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20021222065216.GA468@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20021222172853.GC16833@gothmog.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021222172853.GC16833@gothmog.gr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.7-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas said on Dec 22, 2002 at 19:28:53: > On 2002-12-22 01:52, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Meanwhile, stability under extreme loads (which may occur 0.1% of > > the time) may be a priority for servers, but for desktop machines > > and "numbercrunching" machines, raw performance the remaining 99.9% > > of the time is far more important. Even on uniprocessor machines, > > linux sometimes "feels" faster, if (or because?) it's somewhat less > > solid (eg the async-mounted filesystem, etc), and these perceptions > > eventually do influence user choice... > > Yup. I have heard the argument "but it feels faster" many times from > Linux-using acquaintances & friends. This doesn't make the user > choise any more correct or wrong though. The "feel" is not a very > objective way of measuring things, and choises based on the general > feel of a system are sometimes .. well .. unlucky? :) In many things you're right. However, Jonathon was also talking about penetration on the desktop, device driver support, etc, so let me play devil's advocate (as opposed to daemon's advocate) for a moment... Regarding the filesystem, well softupdates-enabled ufs is more crash-resistant than linux. But even there it's not black and white. Two things: 1. on IDE disks with write-caching on, the filesystem can be damaged in the event of a crash even on FreeBSD. The FreeBSD people know this, and turned write-caching off by default (in 4.4-RELEASE iirc), but turned it back on rather quickly in response to user outcry. So there you have a FreeBSD bad decision made basically for PR reasons... (I turned off write-caching after a crash messed up my drive, and I haven't noticed any significant performance loss.) 2. FreeBSD people like to diss the journalling filesystems on linux ("it's a 'bandaid' in case of crashes, and our filesystem is crash-resistant and don't need a bandaid"). This misses the major advantage of journalling filesystems: fast rebooting. If you have 60 G of data on an important server, you don't want to wait half an hour while it checks the FS before rebooting. 5.0 has background fsck to alleviate the problem, but people's experience with that seems, well, mixed (judging by the mailing lists...) So, basically, I can forgive linux people for thinking their filesystems perform better, even if strictly speaking that's not true. Regarding other things, I think linux may actually be *more* stable than freebsd. I remember an article by Greg Lehey long back where he claimed that FreeBSD's device support is nearly as good as Linux's but we're less aggressive about marketing it (eg, linux people will say "such and such works fine, well ok there are these problems and these things don't quite work, but basically we do support it" where freebsd people will say "support is very preliminary, use at your own risk"). Well if that was true once, I'm not sure it's true now. USB support in particular seems quite flaky (ironic since FreeBSD's actually supported USB longer than linux). I can readily make my computer panic with the USB audio driver, which I've been using for around a year, but which was merged into -stable only recently (just before 4.7-RELEASE). Basically, unplug it, or just jiggle the plug a little (easily done by accident) while audio output is going on -- instant panic. The problems are known and noted in the cvs log when it was merged, but it was merged into -stable anyway. I think it's atrocious that something known to be this flaky can get into -stable. But on browsing the mailing list archives, it seems lots of other USB devices have problems. Clearly this a quality v/s PR compromise -- better to claim "we support USB audio" than keep it out until it works (and the 4.7 release notes don't even note the problems). For the record, the device works with absolutely no hitch under linux, in fact it's the only reason I now have linux as dual-boot on my machine. There are even older problems with FreeBSD. At least one such problem went unresolved for literally years. (I don't know whether it's fixed now.) Basically, mount a write-protected floppy in read-write mode, try to write to it, then try to unmount it -- instant panic. I still think FreeBSD is a great system, because its fundamentals are sound. But I wouldn't be so hasty to condemn linux -- they have got lots of things right and it's good to learn from them. But fundamentally I think they're more responsive to users because they carry less historical/ideological baggage. For example -- gentoo linux has a ports-like system which was conceptually borrowed from FreeBSD's ports, but is now much better than FreeBSD's in my opinion. See this post for why I think so: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=45444&cid=4704115 Now, one reason they probably managed to develop something so good, so fast, is that they used bash and python (as a result, python is in their "base system", and bash would have been there in any case). I have no doubt that they'd have willingly used ruby if it suited their purposes. Now, FreeBSD does have something which solves many of the problems of the basic ports system -- namely, portupgrade -- but it's written in ruby so it's never going to make it to the base system. And now perl, too, is out of the base system; so until someone writes something better in plain C or sh, we're going to be stuck with the basic ports infrastructure... There are lots of other things I could say, but it all comes down to this: I think FreeBSD people could learn to be more tolerant of the "linux way". Linux is a fast-evolving, highly mutating ecosystem, there is no standard "base system" and not even a standard kernel: hardly anyone uses a vanilla Linus kernel anymore. As a result there are a lot of rough edges and minor incompatibilities, and some core components aren't as stable as they should be. But they also come up with a lot of good ideas, which then make it somewhere (if not in Linus's tree, in Alan Cox's or somewhere else; if not in Red Hat's distribution, in SuSE's or Gentoo's). I think that's why people are attracted to it. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 11:11:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB0D37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from tara.freenix.org (keltia.freenix.org [62.4.20.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8F0643EDE for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:11:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@tara.freenix.org) Received: by tara.freenix.org (Postfix/TLS, from userid 101) id C77822A93; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:11:45 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:11:45 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Quote from a NetBSDer Message-ID: <20021222191145.GA28129@tara.freenix.org> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT K6-3D/266 & 2x PIII/800 SMP User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heard from a red-neck^W^Wdie-hard NetBSDer: « Using the ports system [on FreeBSD] is like using Debian and accepting that the maintainer dictates his choices upon you. » Nevermind that he should speak about packages but then again I wasn't expecting anything fair from him, seeing as fanatical as he is... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 5.0-CURRENT #80: Sun Jun 4 22:44:19 CEST 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 11:29: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD3137B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D0CB43EEA for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:28:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with ESMTP id <20021222192853002000d8joe>; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 19:28:53 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gBMJSMk7038563; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:28:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id gBMJSGlw038560; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:28:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's momentum and future prospects References: <20021221231417.GB32071@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <001101c2a948$2034b5e0$c601a8c0@silverdollar> <20021222034806.GA34537@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <000c01c2a98e$fcd590a0$c601a8c0@silverdollar> <20021222174108.GD16833@gothmog.gr> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 22 Dec 2002 11:28:15 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20021222174108.GD16833@gothmog.gr> Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas writes: > That's nice indeed. I like the way that the kernel is configured in > the BSD world a whole lot better. I find it a lot easier to edit a > simple text file, comment this here, uncomment that elsewhere, than > the `Linux wway' which seems to involve a lot of struggling with menu > options (at least, the last time I checked). It's been two years now, but I'm fairly sure that you may hand edit a Linux kernel config file if you want to. The config programs just create the config file from scratch in a user-friendly (not!) manner. One thing Linux does have over FreeBSD in this regard is MUCH better documentation of the config items, either from the GUI's "help" or by just reading the text file the GUI reads its help from. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 11:47:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E110037B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8916D43EDC for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:47:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev11k.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.52] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18QC4o-00017A-01 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:47:55 -0800 Received: (qmail 3259 invoked by uid 1001); 22 Dec 2002 19:47:51 -0000 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:47:51 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's momentum and future prospects Message-ID: <20021222194751.GA3140@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20021222034806.GA34537@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021222064026.GA421@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20021222065216.GA468@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20021222172853.GC16833@gothmog.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021222174108.GD16833@gothmog.gr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.7-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > freebsd5 % ls -l /boot/kernel/kernel > -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 3076790 Dec 22 02:30 /boot/kernel/kernel > linux-2.4.17 % ls -l /boot/kernel > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 733501 Feb 2 2002 kernel Note that linux kernels are typically compressed (ie, if you made them using "make bzImage"). I think this is due to some constraints with lilo -- certainly the disk space saving these days is quite negligible, and once it's loaded it's uncompressed anyway. Uncompressed, if I remember right, the sizes are comparable. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 11:55: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACCE937B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCFC443ED8 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:55:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net) Received: from christine.energyhq.tk (christine.energyhq.tk [192.168.0.1]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 072F2AF58D; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:54:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:58:46 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Quote from a NetBSDer Message-Id: <20021222205846.10e0a30a.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> In-Reply-To: <20021222191145.GA28129@tara.freenix.org> References: <20021222191145.GA28129@tara.freenix.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) X-Face: 1j}k*2E>Y\+C~E|/wehi[:dCM,{N7/uE3o# P,{t7gA/qnovFDDuyQV.1hdT7&#d)q"xY33}{_GS>kk'S{O]nE$A`T|\4&p\&mQyexOLb8}FO List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:11:45 +0100 Ollivier Robert wrote: Hi, > Heard from a red-neck^W^Wdie-hard NetBSDer: > > « Using the ports system [on FreeBSD] is like using Debian and > accepting that the maintainer dictates his choices upon you. » I don't get it, NetBSD's pkgsrc system is based on FreeBSD's. Most of it is pretty similar (save buildlinks and some other stuff). What's this guy talking about? > Nevermind that he should speak about packages but then again I wasn't > expecting anything fair from him, seeing as fanatical as he is... You mean like those people who spend the whole day saying "apt-get foo, apt-get bar"? :-) Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk Of course it runs NetBSD! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 12:21:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01AEC37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:21:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE1843ED8 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:21:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net) Received: from christine.energyhq.tk (christine.energyhq.tk [192.168.0.1]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9EA25AF58D; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:21:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:25:32 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr, jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's momentum and future prospects Message-Id: <20021222212532.4de28aae.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> In-Reply-To: <20021222190153.GA2873@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20021222034806.GA34537@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021222064026.GA421@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20021222065216.GA468@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20021222172853.GC16833@gothmog.gr> <20021222190153.GA2873@papagena.rockefeller.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) X-Face: 1j}k*2E>Y\+C~E|/wehi[:dCM,{N7/uE3o# P,{t7gA/qnovFDDuyQV.1hdT7&#d)q"xY33}{_GS>kk'S{O]nE$A`T|\4&p\&mQyexOLb8}FO List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:01:54 -0500 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: Hi, > Regarding the filesystem, well softupdates-enabled ufs is more > crash-resistant than linux. But even there it's not black and white. More resistan than Linux what? :) I've never heard anything good about reiserfs, played a little bit with jfs, but I can tell you that XFS smokes any other filesystem, except, perhaps, Veritas filesystem, which is the de facto for large arrays on Sun servers. I understand UFS+S is very nice, but if the risk of losing data is there anyway, I'll take a 2 sec crash-recovery vs 2 hour fsck anyday. The Linux version is still lacking some features that were in the original IRIX implemenation, but it's IMHO a very impressive FS. > for PR reasons...(I turned off write-caching after a crash messed > up my drive, and I haven't noticed any significant performance > loss.) Depends on load, applications running, etc. My guess is most people won't notice much, and those who really need the performance on a server are probably using SCSI anyway. > 2. FreeBSD people like to diss the journalling filesystems on linux > ("it's a 'bandaid' in case of crashes, and our filesystem is > crash-resistant and don't need a bandaid"). This misses the major I don't think they think of it as a bandaid, it's just a different solution to the metadata consistency problem. None of these systems will guarantee data integrity in case of a system crash. A log replay is orders of magnitude faster than fsck. > hour while it checks the FS before rebooting. 5.0 has background > fsck to alleviate the problem, but people's experience with that > seems, well, mixed (judging by the mailing lists...) I've personally had good experiences with bgfsck, but you're right, others have had problems. > Regarding other things, I think linux may actually be *more* stable In which case? A desktop? A server? VM performance in the 2.4 series has been horrible, unacceptable for something you could call 'production ready'. > we're less aggressive about marketing it (eg, linux people will say > "such and such works fine, well ok there are these problems and these > things don't quite work, but basically we do support it" where freebsd > people will say "support is very preliminary, use at your own risk"). Exactly, it's a case of perception, how do you rate the maturity of a driver. > There are even older problems with FreeBSD. At least one such problem > went unresolved for literally years. (I don't know whether it's fixed > now.) Basically, mount a write-protected floppy in read-write mode, > try to write to it, then try to unmount it -- instant panic. Yes, I remeber that one :) Too bad I no longer have floppies on my computers :) > fundamentally I think they're more responsive to users because they I've found both the FreeBSD and NetBSD communities to be quite responsive to people's needs, as long as it fits the project's goals, of course. OpenBSD, well, we all know Theo :) > carry less historical/ideological baggage. For example -- gentoo > linux has a ports-like system which was conceptually borrowed from > FreeBSD's ports, but is now much better than FreeBSD's in my opinion. It still has a long way to go too, I've heard many good things about, but many ebuilds break quite often. > Now, FreeBSD does have something which solves many of the problems of > the basic ports system -- namely, portupgrade -- but it's written in > ruby so it's never going to make it to the base system. And now perl, > too, is out of the base system; so until someone writes something > better in plain C or sh, we're going to be stuck with the basic ports > infrastructure... Getting perl out of the system was a very good move IMHO. About portupgrade being written in in ruby, well, nobody else has done anything similar in C (I also think C is not the best choice for such as task), so we're stuck with this. FWIW, portupgrade works very well for me. Maybe we could do something like pkg_hack does on NetBSD. It's written in C, and it seems to do the trick. > There are lots of other things I could say, but it all comes down to > this: I think FreeBSD people could learn to be more tolerant of the > "linux way". Linux is a fast-evolving, highly mutating ecosystem, I think most FreeBSD people don't care about Linux that much, they like BSD and they use it. > there is no standard "base system" and not even a standard kernel: Well, now there's this LSB thing, but that alone has been a reason for quite some people to prefer BSD. There's only one {Free,Net,Open}BSD, not a myriad of different distros. > components aren't as stable as they should be. But they also come up > with a lot of good ideas, which then make it somewhere (if not in > Linus's tree, in Alan Cox's or somewhere else; if not in Red Hat's > distribution, in SuSE's or Gentoo's). I think that's why people are > attracted to it. Of course there are good ideas, and those are not to be ignored. I think that those Linux-hating BSD users a just a few, but quite vocal. I don't think that represents the general thinking of the community. Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk Of course it runs NetBSD! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 12:42:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 047FA37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from tesla.foo.is (tesla.reverse-bias.org [217.151.166.96]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E7A43EE5 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:42:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from baldur@foo.is) Received: from there (eniac.foo.is [192.168.1.25]) by tesla.foo.is (Postfix) with SMTP id 9C7DAA966; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:41:39 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" From: Baldur Gislason To: Ollivier Robert Subject: Re: Quote from a NetBSDer Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:42:17 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <20021222191145.GA28129@tara.freenix.org> In-Reply-To: <20021222191145.GA28129@tara.freenix.org> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20021222204139.9C7DAA966@tesla.foo.is> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heh, NetBSD's pkgsrc isn't much different, most ports have some options you can set, and it's easy to customize the ports. Debian however uses precompiled binary packages so nothing can be customized while using the package system. I frequently do 'make patch' or 'make configure' on ports and then go into the work dir to edit the sources. Baldur On Sunday 22 December 2002 19:11, you wrote: > Heard from a red-neck^W^Wdie-hard NetBSDer: > > « Using the ports system [on FreeBSD] is like using Debian and > accepting that the maintainer dictates his choices upon you. » > > Nevermind that he should speak about packages but then again I wasn't > expecting anything fair from him, seeing as fanatical as he is... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 12:57:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF8637B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:57:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B06D43ED8 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:57:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from kanga.org ([151.201.19.185]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.20 201-253-122-126-120-20021101) with ESMTP id <20021222205708.WTPA21770.out003.verizon.net@kanga.org> for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:57:08 -0600 Message-ID: <3E06273B.2040602@kanga.org> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:57:31 -0500 From: David Cuthbert Organization: Kanga International User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en-au, en-nz, en-us, en- MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's momentum and future prospects References: <20021221231417.GB32071@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <001101c2a948$2034b5e0$c601a8c0@silverdollar> <20021222034806.GA34537@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <000c01c2a98e$fcd590a0$c601a8c0@silverdollar> In-Reply-To: <000c01c2a98e$fcd590a0$c601a8c0@silverdollar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at out003.verizon.net from [151.201.19.185] at Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:57:07 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter Kieser wrote: > I still find that FreeBSD has more _useful_ drivers then Linux, I have yet > to find a device that isn't detected by FreeBSD, except some USB stuff such > as my Logitech Webcam, and other "cheap" hardware that isn't of real use to > anyone that is running FreeBSD in the first place, still it would be nice to > see some of those drivers supported by FreeBSD, but this would lead to the > bloat of the kernel. Agreed that FreeBSD has more useful drivers. But we should still try to support the "cheap" hardware; after all, things like IDE drives could be considered "cheap." Also, why would it bloat the kernel (assuming it is loaded as a module)? Or were you referring to the kernel source? > On the other hand, my favourite feature of FreeBSD is the Kernel > Configuration, it has a nice GENERIC kernel I love this feature, both as a user and as a developer. Telling someone that they have to tweak their kernel in order to run program X is such a drag. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 16: 0:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F87B37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ocis.net (mailserver.ocis.net [209.52.173.152]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7DBC43ED8 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:00:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fcash@ocis.net) Received: from host64.wireless.kamloops.net ([64.114.144.93] helo=spark.sd73.bc.ca) by mail.ocis.net with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 18QG0q-0006qp-00; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:00:05 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" From: Freddie Cash Reply-To: fcash@ocis.net To: Ollivier Robert Subject: Re: Quote from a NetBSDer Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 15:59:15 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <20021222191145.GA28129@tara.freenix.org> In-Reply-To: <20021222191145.GA28129@tara.freenix.org> Cc: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200212221559.15838.fcash@ocis.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday 22 December 2002 11:11, Ollivier Robert wrote: > Heard from a red-neck^W^Wdie-hard NetBSDer: > =09=AB Using the ports system [on FreeBSD] is like using Debian and > accepting that the maintainer dictates his choices upon you. =BB > Nevermind that he should speak about packages but then again I wasn't > expecting anything fair from him, seeing as fanatical as he is... You told that you can tweak the Makefile for a port any way you want to=20 add/remove configure parameters, right? You also told him that one can use "make patch" and the run the=20 configure portion by hand from within the work/ directory, right? You also told him that the ports tree using source tarballs to custom=20 compile each app, whereas Debian's apt system uses pre-compiled=20 binaries that one cannot change? In other words, it's an apples vs.=20 oranges comparison. Now, if he was complaing about using pkg_add as being the same as=20 Debian's apt, and that one cannot customise the apps, then he has a=20 valid complaint. However, considering the fact that NetBSD's pkgsrc=20 system is virtually identical to FreeBSD's ports, I honestly cannot see=20 the origin of hi beef. Is he strange or something?? :) --=20 Freddie fcash@ocis.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 17:10:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A8E37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F06B43EE5 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:10:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b213.otenet.gr [212.205.244.221]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBN1ACQK001225; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 03:10:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBN1AC91001579; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 03:10:12 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gBN1AC35001578; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 03:10:12 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 03:10:11 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's momentum and future prospects Message-ID: <20021223011011.GB582@gothmog.gr> References: <20021222034806.GA34537@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20021222064026.GA421@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20021222065216.GA468@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20021222172853.GC16833@gothmog.gr> <20021222194751.GA3140@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021222194751.GA3140@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-12-22 14:47, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > freebsd5 % ls -l /boot/kernel/kernel > > -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 3076790 Dec 22 02:30 /boot/kernel/kernel > > linux-2.4.17 % ls -l /boot/kernel > > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 733501 Feb 2 2002 kernel > > Note that linux kernels are typically compressed (ie, if you made them > using "make bzImage"). I think this is due to some constraints with > lilo -- certainly the disk space saving these days is quite > negligible, and once it's loaded it's uncompressed anyway. > Uncompressed, if I remember right, the sizes are comparable. Ah, yes, indeed... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 17:30:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493B337B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB71443EDE for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:30:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9381005F; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pantherdragon.org (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14728AA8F; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:30:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E066732.2010805@pantherdragon.org> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:30:26 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fcash@ocis.net Cc: Ollivier Robert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Quote from a NetBSDer References: <20021222191145.GA28129@tara.freenix.org> <200212221559.15838.fcash@ocis.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freddie Cash wrote: >On Sunday 22 December 2002 11:11, Ollivier Robert wrote: >>Heard from a red-neck^W^Wdie-hard NetBSDer: >> « Using the ports system [on FreeBSD] is like using Debian and >> accepting that the maintainer dictates his choices upon you. » > > >>Nevermind that he should speak about packages but then again I wasn't >>expecting anything fair from him, seeing as fanatical as he is... > > You told that you can tweak the Makefile for a port any way you want to > add/remove configure parameters, right? > > You also told him that one can use "make patch" and the run the > configure portion by hand from within the work/ directory, right? Any of the custom configuration bits you can do by hand can also be done by modifying the port Makefile. The port makefiles are really just scripts that issue the same commands the user would if s/he were doing an automated build of source externally. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 23: 5:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EB7A37B401 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (24-159-239-62.jvl.wi.charter.com [24.159.239.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC81643EE6 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBN11LGN007007; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:01:24 GMT (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 00:43:23 +0000 From: Kyle Martin To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? Message-ID: <20021201004323.GD811@marvin.bsdng.org> References: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DE9A680.4000702@pantherdragon.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Lines: 30 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Nov 30, 2002 at 10:04:48PM -0800, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:04:48 -0800 > From: Darren Pilgrim > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Is a port skeleton considered a derivative work under the GPL? > > I'm planning on making a port skeleton for a GPL'd program. I can't, > though, figure out if I have to GPL the port skeleton or not. If the of course not > skeleton is just the basic wrapper Makefile and uses the entire contents > of the original tarball verbatim, the skeleton is the equivalent of an > external start-up script and thus outside the scope of the original > license, right? What if I need to include patches or replace the > original Makefiles to get a clean build and install? Do those patches > and replacements have to be GPL'd? I've read the GPL, and all I gained nope we do it all the time, look at any of the thousands of ported GPL applications -- Kyle Martin , http://www.bsdng.org -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d s:- a-- C+++ UB++++ P--- L- E--- W++ N+ o-- K- w--- O- M+ V-- PS+++ PE-- Y-- PGP++ t--- 5-- X+++ R+ tv b+++ DI+ D G- e* h++ r% y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 23: 5:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E3E37B442; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (24-159-239-62.jvl.wi.charter.com [24.159.239.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04FD43EDC; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBN11LGa007007; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:01:29 GMT (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:52:44 -0600 From: Kyle Martin To: Khairil Yusof Cc: chat@freebsd.org, ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbie question about make and include files Message-ID: <20021124085244.GC1450@marvin.bsdng.org> References: <1038119825.47127.115.camel@daemon.home> <20021124073740.GB1450@marvin.bsdng.org> <1038125845.47127.122.camel@daemon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1038125845.47127.122.camel@daemon.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Lines: 19 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 04:17:25PM +0800, Khairil Yusof wrote: > Thanks for the pointers. I can start the compile, but now I run into > pthreads problems :) > > /usr/local/lib/libmikmod.so: undefined reference to `pthread_mutex_lock' > > which is a better list to pursue further help? > > newbies@freebsd.org > questions@freebsd.org > hackers@freebsd.org > sounds like your having issues porting source code, id' mail ports@freebsd.org -- Kyle Martin || mkm@IEEE.org || http://www.BSDng.org "Profanity is the only language all programmers understand." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 23: 5:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4414137B405 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (24-159-239-62.jvl.wi.charter.com [24.159.239.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D607843EDA for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBN11LGc007007 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:01:29 GMT (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:46:16 -0600 From: Kyle Martin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: YAS9Q (yet another style nine question) Message-ID: <20021123234616.GA1450@marvin.bsdng.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Lines: 9 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just wondering what .vimrc hackery some people have come up with to help automate style(9) coding. Yes I know you (x)emacs fans have probably done the same, but I'm mostly interested in vim, don't ask why since id rather not like to start an editor war. :-) -- Kyle Martin || mkm@IEEE.org || http://www.BSDng.org "Profanity is the only language all programmers understand." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 23: 5:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F13A37B40A for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (24-159-239-62.jvl.wi.charter.com [24.159.239.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC34743EE6 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBN11LGb007007; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:01:29 GMT (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:37:40 -0600 From: Kyle Martin To: Khairil Yusof Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbie question about make and include files Message-ID: <20021124073740.GB1450@marvin.bsdng.org> References: <1038119825.47127.115.camel@daemon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1038119825.47127.115.camel@daemon.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Lines: 46 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 02:49:44PM +0800, Khairil Yusof wrote: > Subject: newbie question about make and include files > From: Khairil Yusof > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Date: 24 Nov 2002 14:49:44 +0800 > > Not sure if this is the right place to ask, if not please point me in > the right direction. > > I've been trying to compile some small programs but I come across errors > with include headers: > > $gcc -s -O3 -funroll-loops -fomit-frame-pointer -mpentium -O2 -pipe > -march=pentiumpro -c intro.c -lggi > > In file included from intro.c:24: > intro.h:25: ggi.h: No such file or directory > > intro.h has: > > #include > > I have the required files (ggi.h) at: > > /usr/local/include/ggi > but that isn't included (only /usr/include) where do I set this > variable? adding include directories can be done with -I, ie: -I/usr/local/include > Playing around a symlink in usr/include confirms my hunch that > /usr/local/include isn't being included. > > after that I get this: > > /usr/libexec/elf/ld: cannot find -lggi > > After reading man 1 gcc, I see that it's trying to link to the ggi > library. Again this is in /usr/local/lib not /usr/lib the library directorys can be specified just like the include directories, but with -L, ie -L/usr/local/lib -- Kyle Martin || mkm@IEEE.org || http://www.BSDng.org "Profanity is the only language all programmers understand." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 23: 5:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6381F37B4A4 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (24-159-239-62.jvl.wi.charter.com [24.159.239.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E08C43ED8 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBN11LGv007007; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:01:45 GMT (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 07:54:03 -0600 From: Kyle Martin To: Nathan Mace Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Does this exist? Message-ID: <20021106135403.GA82947@marvin.bsdng.org> References: <119245048150.20021105193336@myrealbox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <119245048150.20021105193336@myrealbox.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Lines: 41 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 07:33:36PM -0500, Nathan Mace wrote: > Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:33:36 -0500 > From: Nathan Mace > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Does this exist? > > first of all, I'm not sure this is the proper place to be asking this, > however as far as i know this mailing list isn't restricted to a > particular subject except FreeBSD in general. > > that said, my question is this: > > Are there any open source projects out there that are working on > making a slim OS that will boot off of a CD, load itself into memory > and run from completely within RAM, and never touch a hard > drive.......now i know there are...there are several "live" Linux CD's which > do this but let me finish my question.........are there any that can > do this, and are aimed at firewall's? > > as cheap as RAM for PC's is now, why couldn't a company afford to buy > say 512* megs of ram and have a firewall that runs totally in ram and > boots from a CD-R? think about that for a second. if system got > comprised, what could the "bad guy" do? he couldn't install anything that > would last because as soon as the sys-admin discovered he was there, > they could re-boot the machine, and since it boots off of a read-only > "hard drive" you know that it hasn't been comprised, and the ram that > it uses for a temporary hard drive would be instantly formatted. granted if > someone got in once they can do it again as soon as the machine was up > and running again......but how is that any different than a machine > that runs off of a hard drive? you would still have to wait on an > update or patch. and if you had this in a production environment you > could have a dedicated machine running FreeBSD and when the patch came > out you could install the patch to that box, and then burn a new image > that was created from that OS and boom. your firewall is not upgraded > picobsd(8) -- Kyle Martin mkm@ieee.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 23: 5:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E11537B40A for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (24-159-239-62.jvl.wi.charter.com [24.159.239.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C204C43EF4 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBN11LH7007007; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:01:47 GMT (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 03:57:54 -0600 From: Kyle Martin To: Julian Elischer Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current marcketting name? Message-ID: <20021102095754.GA19456@marvin.bsdng.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: Re: -current marcketting name? 5.Doh! Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Lines: 18 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 01, 2002 at 02:02:41PM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:02:41 -0800 (PST) > From: Julian Elischer > To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: -current marcketting name? > > > SO ok, we need a good marketting name for 5.0.. > 5.Doh! with a new beastie mascot pic found at: http://www.nazeing.demon.co.uk/evilhom.gif -- Kyle Martin mkm@ieee.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 22 23: 5:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFFAF37B40B for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (24-159-239-62.jvl.wi.charter.com [24.159.239.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD2C643EDA for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:05:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Received: from marvin.bsdng.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by marvin.bsdng.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBN11LH6007007; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:01:47 GMT (envelope-from mkm@ieee.org) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 04:01:01 -0600 From: Kyle Martin To: Julian Elischer Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -current marcketting name? Message-ID: <20021102100101.GB19456@marvin.bsdng.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Lines: 12 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 01, 2002 at 02:02:41PM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > > SO ok, we need a good marketting name for 5.0.. > How about some sort of mention (or hint if blatantly mentioning would be a bad idea) of the groups and firms that have funded a lot of the new technology in 5.0? namely NAI Labs and DARPA. -- Kyle Martin mkm@ieee.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 23 0:48:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A315037B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 00:48:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tara.freenix.org (keltia.freenix.org [62.4.20.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8E343EDC for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 00:48:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@tara.freenix.org) Received: by tara.freenix.org (Postfix/TLS, from userid 101) id 8CA972A93; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:48:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:48:02 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Quote from a NetBSDer Message-ID: <20021223084802.GA30615@tara.freenix.org> Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org References: <20021222191145.GA28129@tara.freenix.org> <200212221559.15838.fcash@ocis.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200212221559.15838.fcash@ocis.net> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT K6-3D/266 & 2x PIII/800 SMP User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Freddie Cash: > You told that you can tweak the Makefile for a port any way you want to > add/remove configure parameters, right? I thought he knew that but I'm beginning to wonder. > system is virtually identical to FreeBSD's ports, I honestly cannot see > the origin of hi beef. Is he strange or something?? :) He's after the latest version of his software, just like any Linux wanabee-hacker that compiles three kernels a day. Waiting for the ports would be too much so he compiles everything manually running configure... Last time he touched a FreeBSD, he did a PREFIX=/usr/pkg in order not to be too lost... :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 5.0-CURRENT #80: Sun Jun 4 22:44:19 CEST 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 23 4:39:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 500C537B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D6743EDC for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:39:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C2FB88BD; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:39:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFF2C87B; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:39:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:39:41 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Miguel Mendez Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , , , Subject: Re: FreeBSD's momentum and future prospects In-Reply-To: <20021222212532.4de28aae.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> Message-ID: <20021223043146.R73586-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 22 Dec 2002, Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:01:54 -0500 > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Regarding the filesystem, well softupdates-enabled ufs is more > > crash-resistant than linux. But even there it's not black and white. > More resistan than Linux what? :) > I've never heard anything good about reiserfs, played a little bit with > jfs, but I can tell you that XFS smokes any other filesystem, except, > perhaps, Veritas filesystem, which is the de facto for large arrays > on Sun servers. I understand UFS+S is very nice, but if the risk of > losing data is there anyway, I'll take a 2 sec crash-recovery vs 2 hour > fsck anyday. The Linux version is still lacking some features that were > in the original IRIX implemenation, but it's IMHO a very impressive FS. My day job is running Irix macines, has been for years, and XFS is one of the nicest filesystems I've ever had to crash recover from. It's not perfect, and prior to XFS Rollup 6 on 6.[2|3|4] you could get some interesting corruption, but overall, it's a damn fine filesystem. I haven't played with it on Linux, but I am pretty sure it's incomplete relative to Irix based on the traffic I've seen over on the comp.sys.sgi.* newsgroups. As for Veritas, I believe the story is that SGI lured a few Veritas engineers to write XFS, only do it better, but that's just rumor. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 23 13:10:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C99CF37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:10:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC99943EE5 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:10:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from akruijff@dds.nl) Received: from cybertron.kruijff ([213.10.151.186]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H7LC4A01.U0C; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 22:09:46 +0100 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 22:08:59 +0100 From: Alex X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62 Christmas Edition) Personal Reply-To: Alex X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <5937925744.20021223220859@dds.nl> To: Miguel Mendez Cc: Ollivier Robert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re[2]: Quote from a NetBSDer In-Reply-To: <20021222205846.10e0a30a.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> References: <20021222191145.GA28129@tara.freenix.org> <20021222205846.10e0a30a.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dear/Beste Miguel, >> Heard from a red-neck^W^Wdie-hard NetBSDer: >> >> « Using the ports system [on FreeBSD] is like using Debian and >> accepting that the maintainer dictates his choices upon you. » > I don't get it, NetBSD's pkgsrc system is based on FreeBSD's. Most of it > is pretty similar (save buildlinks and some other stuff). What's this > guy talking about? If i read this right, then this guy didn't was excluding NetBSD. -- Best regards/Met vriendelijke groet, Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 0:22:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDEE37B401; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:22:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58DEF43EE5; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:22:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBO8MAkj029982; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:22:10 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gBO8M9Wq029981; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:22:09 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:22:09 +0200 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Cc: sobomax@FreeBSD.org Subject: Happy birthday Maxim! Message-ID: <20021224082209.GA29796@nevermind.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Happy birthday Maxim! I wish you live long, code good, earn a lot and have good friends! :) -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 0:50:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0014D37B401 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0634443EE8 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:50:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBO8oJkj031803 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:50:19 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gBO8oIuH031802 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:50:19 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:50:18 +0200 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MDFUG Pre-Christmas "Happy Hour" Friday, Dec 13th. Message-ID: <20021224085018.GB29796@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <3DF5242F.165E7E5C@panasas.com> <20021209181830.B80351-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021209181830.B80351-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Mario! On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 06:19:47PM -0500, you wrote: > On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Chris Corbliss wrote: > > > What's wrong with me ? > Well, for one thing, you're not supposed to put a space before a question > mark. Don't feed trolls! -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 1:14:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F24037B401 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 01:14:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.libero.it (smtp2.libero.it [193.70.192.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45DCF43EDA for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 01:14:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eric_mani@libero.it) Received: from libero.it (193.70.192.38) by smtp2.libero.it (6.7.015) id 3DE352CC001EAE8A; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:12:48 +0100 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:12:48 +0100 Message-Id: Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?urgent_assistance?= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?eric=5Fmani@libero.it?=" To: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?eurofnd?=" X-XaM3-API-Version: 3.2 R29 (B54 pl1) X-type: 0 X-SenderIP: 64.110.29.51 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FROM ERIC MANI=0D=0AABIDJAN , COTE D=B4IVOIRE =0D=0A=0D=0ADear sir, =0D=0A= =0D=0AIt is my pleasure to write you after much =0D=0Aconsideration since= I can not be able to see you face=0D=0Ato face at first. Being the only = son of =0D=0Alate Mr. Taboh Mani from ZULU in Republic of=0D=0ASouth Afri= ca. =0D=0A=0D=0AMy father was a limited liability cocoa and gold=0D=0Amer= chant in South Africa before his untimely death.=0D=0AAfter his business = trip to Abidjan - C=F4te d=B4Ivoire, to=0D=0Anegotiate on a cocoa busines= s. A week after he cane=0D=0Aback from Abidjan, he was assassinated by un= known=0D=0Aassassins. but my father died after five days in=0D=0Ahospital= , on that faithful afternoon. I didn=B4t know=0D=0Athat my father was goi= ng to leave me. before he gave=0D=0Aup the ghost, it was as if he knew he= was going to=0D=0Adie. He my father, (may his soul rest in =0D=0Aperfect= peace) he disclose to me that he deposited and=0D=0Athe sum of $18.500.0= 00.00 US dollars(Eigteen million=0D=0AFive hundred thousand dollars) in S= ecurity Company=0D=0Ahere in Abidjan - C=F4te d=B4Ivoire . =0D=0A=0D=0ATh= at the money was meant for his cocoa business he=0D=0Awanted to invest in= Abidjan - Cote d=B4Ivoire. Though,=0D=0Aaccording to my father he deposi= ted the money in a=0D=0Atrunk box, but declared it as Ivory, and family=0D= =0Abelonging. He single handed me the key of the box and=0D=0Athe Deposit= Certificate, and instructed me to seek=0D=0Afor a life time investment a= broad. Now I have=0D=0Asucceeded in locating the security company here in= =0D=0AAbidjan - C=F4te d=B4Ivoire and also confirmed the item=0D=0Awith m= ost honest and confidentiality . Now I am=0D=0Asoliciting for your assist= ance to help me lift this=0D=0Amoney out from Abidjan to your account abr= oad so that=0D=0Awe should invest it in any lucrative business in your=0D= =0Acountry. Because this is my only hope in life. =0D=0A=0D=0AAwaiting an= xiously to hear from you so that we can=0D=0Adiscuss the modalities of th= is transaction. =0D=0A=0D=0AIf this proposal is acceptable, please kindly= contact=0D=0Ame through e-mail address immediately for more=0D=0Adiscuss= ion. Please don=B4t hesitate to send me message=0D=0Aon the receipt of th= is mail. =0D=0A=0D=0AThanks for your kind attention and mutual=0D=0Aunder= standing . =0D=0A=0D=0ABest regards =0D=0A=0D=0AEric Mani=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A= =0D=0A To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 7:59:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E658D37B405 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29DE343EC2 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:59:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from [216.20.231.174] (helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18QrTE-0004TG-00; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:59:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3E088426.77703337@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:58:30 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Szorcc Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: root on InterJet II References: <20021222181317.10A2543EDC@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4084172ed0d8959be68f2144d6e1009b4a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Szorcc wrote: > Hi everybody, > > is there anybody out there who can tell me how can I get root access > on a Whistle InterJet II? You would have to have a FreeBSD 4.5 or below installed on an exiting machine. Since you can't legally own an InterJet II, since they were never sold, only leased, except in Japan, and your email address is not Japanese, I expect that you have a stolen unit. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 8: 5:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E617F37B401 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from seed.net.tw (sn14.seed.net.tw [139.175.54.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C7B343E4A for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:05:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leafy@leafy.idv.tw) Received: from [211.74.5.87] (port=49225 helo=leafy.idv.tw) by seed.net.tw with esmtp (Seednet 4.10:3) id 18QrYJ-000B2R-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:05:07 +0800 Received: from leafy.idv.tw (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by leafy.idv.tw (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBOG574j001720 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:05:07 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from leafy@leafy.idv.tw) Received: (from leafy@localhost) by leafy.idv.tw (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gBOG56Nj001719 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:05:06 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:05:06 +0800 From: leafy To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: root on InterJet II Message-ID: <20021224160506.GA1667@leafy.idv.tw> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20021222181317.10A2543EDC@mx1.FreeBSD.org> <3E088426.77703337@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E088426.77703337@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 24, 2002 at 07:58:30AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Since you can't legally own an InterJet II, since they were > never sold, only leased, except in Japan, and your email > address is not Japanese, I expect that you have a stolen unit. > > -- Terry http://www.interjet-upgrade.com/interjet_models.htm That's in California :) Merry Xmas -- "Without the userland, the kernel is useless." --inspired by The Tao of Programming To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 8: 6:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C1A37B401 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071CB43EB2 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:06:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id gBOG8d4l080246; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:08:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from plongeur@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (plongeur@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id gBOG8dHx080243; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:08:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:08:39 -0500 (EST) From: Sodiering in the Army of the Lord To: Terry Lambert Cc: Szorcc , Subject: Re: root on InterJet II In-Reply-To: <3E088426.77703337@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20021224110741.X80072-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Szorcc wrote: > > Hi everybody, > > > > is there anybody out there who can tell me how can I get root access > > on a Whistle InterJet II? > > You would have to have a FreeBSD 4.5 or below installed on an > exiting machine. > > Since you can't legally own an InterJet II, since they were > never sold, only leased, except in Japan, and your email > address is not Japanese, I expect that you have a stolen unit. Fisherman's Friends make me feel parts of me which I've never felt before. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 24 8:13:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ECE437B401 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA6043E4A for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:13:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from [216.20.231.174] (helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Qrg6-00068F-00; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:13:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3E08874A.C7EBA7C3@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:11:54 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: leafy Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: root on InterJet II References: <20021222181317.10A2543EDC@mx1.FreeBSD.org> <3E088426.77703337@mindspring.com> <20021224160506.GA1667@leafy.idv.tw> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4a766d5e3bcf3f3b04e254d022786e979387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org leafy wrote: > On Tue, Dec 24, 2002 at 07:58:30AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Since you can't legally own an InterJet II, since they were > > never sold, only leased, except in Japan, and your email > > address is not Japanese, I expect that you have a stolen unit. > > http://www.interjet-upgrade.com/interjet_models.htm > That's in California :) > > Merry Xmas That was likely bought from Japan. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 25 21:56:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5775837B401 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 21:56:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4DA43EC5 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 21:56:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from kanga.org ([151.201.19.185]) by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.20 201-253-122-126-120-20021101) with ESMTP id <20021226055613.YSQE1873.out002.verizon.net@kanga.org> for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 23:56:13 -0600 Message-ID: <3E0A9A13.80007@kanga.org> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 00:56:35 -0500 From: David Cuthbert Organization: Kanga International User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en-au, en-nz, en-us, en- MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: root on InterJet II References: <20021222181317.10A2543EDC@mx1.FreeBSD.org> <3E088426.77703337@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3E088426.77703337@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at out002.verizon.net from [151.201.19.185] at Wed, 25 Dec 2002 23:56:11 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Since you can't legally own an InterJet II, since they were > never sold, only leased, except in Japan, and your email > address is not Japanese, I expect that you have a stolen unit. Hm. Sounds like they were EOLed quite awhile ago, which means they should be hitting the surplus market, no? At any rate, they sound like an interesting application for FreeBSD. I'm curious as to how well they performed... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 27 16:12:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA2B37B401 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:12:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D583043E4A for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:12:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from rev208-187-98-122.wolsi.com ([208.187.98.122] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18S4af-0005L0-00; Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:12:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3E0CEC1E.1ABF3523@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:11:10 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Cuthbert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: root on InterJet II References: <20021222181317.10A2543EDC@mx1.FreeBSD.org> <3E088426.77703337@mindspring.com> <3E0A9A13.80007@kanga.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a45ef892cc3aaa1404ff2b201b3dd57c2da7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Cuthbert wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > Since you can't legally own an InterJet II, since they were > > never sold, only leased, except in Japan, and your email > > address is not Japanese, I expect that you have a stolen unit. > > Hm. Sounds like they were EOLed quite awhile ago, which means they > should be hitting the surplus market, no? No. Like Apple Newtons, there's a bigger tax advantage to crushing them and putting them in a landfill (50 cents on the dollar) to selling them on the surplus market (30 cents on the dollar). > At any rate, they sound like an interesting application for FreeBSD. > I'm curious as to how well they performed... Quite well. But I'm biased. So's Archie, and so's Julian. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 7:37:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D7D37B401 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 07:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gis.net (home.gis.net [208.218.130.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D223B43ED8 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 07:37:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@slaudiovis.org) Received: from slaudiovis.org ([63.214.103.112]) by mail.gis.net; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 10:37:13 -0500 Message-ID: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 10:37:26 -0500 From: Patrick Cable II User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0rc3) Gecko/20020811 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Backup Solutions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rcpt-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all, What do you use for a backup solution for your freebsd server? I've got a server running mail and web that I would like to back up on a regular basis. Some of the ideas ive heard: o Buy a second server, and rsync the two o Tape backup (Whats a good freebsd friendly drive?) o DVD-RAM (Is it even supported in FreeBSD?) o USB hard drive What works for you? More importantly: Am i sending this to the wrong list? And if so, could you point me in the right direction? - Patrick Cable II To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 11: 2:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB9E37B401 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from m20.unixathome.org (m20.unixathome.org [66.11.168.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981E043EA9 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:02:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: by m20.unixathome.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 471AD7A1E; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m20.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 940941E8E for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:02:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:02:39 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@m20.unixathome.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: diskless workstation - minimum requirements? Message-ID: <20021228135828.A26212-100000@m20.unixathome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As part of an upcoming Open Source Weekend (http://www.osw.ca/) I'm putting together a small demonstration network (http://www.langille.org/osw-demo.php). It was suggested that a diskless workstation would be a nice addition to the suite. How practical is this from both a FreeBSD-demo perspective and from a open source perspective? What does it demonstrate? ow useful is it given that we are catering in large to the business community? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 18:19: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5193E37B40C for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C64B43ED1 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:18:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from htabak@quadtelecom.com) Received: from quadtelecom.com ([12.91.170.229]) by mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.12 201-253-122-126-112-20020820) with ESMTP id <20021229021855.UZGM9286.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@quadtelecom.com>; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 02:18:55 +0000 Message-ID: <3E0E5A93.4060108@quadtelecom.com> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:14:43 -0500 From: Harry Tabak Organization: Quad Telecom, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dever@getaclue.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <3E0DAAF3.7090103@quadtelecom.com> <20021228130209.A79151@getaclue.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Douglas A. Dever wrote: > Previously, Harry Tabak (htabak@quadtelecom.com) wrote: > >> I recently discovered, and quite by accident, that a FreeBSD ported >>package -- spambnc (aka Spambouncer or SB) -- was blocking mail from me >>to an unknown number of businesses and individuals on the internet. I'll >>probably never have to correspond with most of these people, but I'm a >>freelancer -- this may have already cost me a job. [Dear reader, don't >>be surprised if you or your clients are also blocked. I strongly suggest >>that you check it out.] > > > > Any server admin who chooses to use some sort of blocking list > understands the risks involved - that clean mail may get rejected > with the dirty. If someone chooses to run a blocking list, they > should be aware of the consequences of each list. That said, once > they decide to do so, they do not have to accept your mail - it is > their server, after all. > Not necessarily. The implication in the literature is that the false-positive rate is low. > >> Basically, the default built-in policies for blocking mail aren't fully >>described, and there is no mechanism to universally correct the >>inevitable mistakes in a timely manner. Users (people who install this >>product) are mislead about the probably of filtering the wrong mail. I >>am sure that the software was developed with the very best intentions, >>but in its zeal to block lots and lots of spam, SB is hurting good people. > > > It sounds like your complaints need to be addressed to the > maintainers/authors of this particular application. > > >> My tiny x/29 block is sub-allocated from my DSL provider's x/23 block. >> The DSL provider's block is a sub-allocation from Inflow.com's >>66.45.0.0/17 block. Spambouncer doesn't like Inflow. While they have a >>right to their opinions, they don't have a right to publicly tar me >>because of my neighbors. > > > Or, you could choose not to do business with a company that supports > spam. That's the point of adding such large blocks to a blackhole > list - to put pressure on the company to change its practices by > affecting other customers. No one is publically tarring you because > of your neighbors - they're choosing not to accept mail from you > because you keep bad company. > > I do not do business with Inflow. I have absolutely no business relationship with them. I do business with SteelCity Telecom. Black-listing me is simplying incorrect, it is based on a faulty assumption, and doesn't reduce spam one iota. > >> If I read sb-blockdomains # comments correctly, it is policy to not >>only block known spammers, but to ALSO block entire networks based on >>their handling of spam complaints. This is like as a business >>receptionist checking callerID and then ignoring incoming calls from >>Verizon subscribers because Verizon tolerates (and probably invented) >>telemarketing. > > > They're not the only people who do this. SPEWS is notorious for > this sort of thing. That's why some folks like the SPEWS list, and > others prefer the SBL or another realtime blocking list. > SPEWS, www.five-ten-sg.com, and all the other RBL's that I can find have no problem with my addresses. Harry Tabak To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 19: 0:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F96137B401 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5643443EA9 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:00:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@akruijff.dds.nl) Received: from cybertron.kruijff ([213.10.151.186]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H7V1NC01.LFR; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 03:59:36 +0100 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 03:58:53 +0100 From: Alex X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62 Christmas Edition) Personal Reply-To: Alex X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <17753878503.20021229035853@dds.nl> To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless workstation - minimum requirements? In-Reply-To: <20021228135828.A26212-100000@m20.unixathome.org> References: <20021228135828.A26212-100000@m20.unixathome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dear/Beste Dan, Saturday, December 28, 2002, 8:02:39 PM, you wrote: > As part of an upcoming Open Source Weekend (http://www.osw.ca/) I'm > putting together a small demonstration network > (http://www.langille.org/osw-demo.php). It was suggested that a diskless > workstation would be a nice addition to the suite. > How practical is this from both a FreeBSD-demo perspective and from a open > source perspective? What does it demonstrate? ow useful is it given that > we are catering in large to the business community? The benefits: - You can install a system without a CD-rom - The working station's don't need to be maintained. - You can provided a alternative OS even when existing HD on the working station is full. ... more? The downside: - Everything has to be loaded over the network. It probably works best for a terminal setup, where you don't do a lot locally but uses a telnet/rsh/ssh/x11 session over the network. -- Best regards/Met vriendelijke groet, Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 28 19:10:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47AB437B401; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283F543EB2; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:10:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@akruijff.dds.nl) Received: from cybertron.kruijff ([213.10.151.186]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H7V25H00.EOP; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:10:29 +0100 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:09:47 +0100 From: Alex X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62 Christmas Edition) Personal Reply-To: Alex , questions@freebsd.org X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <5954531822.20021229040947@dds.nl> To: Patrick Cable II Cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Fwd&Re: Backup Solutions In-Reply-To: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> References: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dear/Beste Patrick, Saturday, December 28, 2002, 4:37:26 PM, you wrote: > Hello all, > What do you use for a backup solution for your freebsd server? > I've got a server running mail and web that I would like to back up > on a regular basis. Some of the ideas ive heard: > o Buy a second server, and rsync the two > o Tape backup (Whats a good freebsd friendly drive?) > o DVD-RAM (Is it even supported in FreeBSD?) > o USB hard drive By a second disk. A RAID solution would keep them in sync every second. I let the machine make a zip file during the night. (You can block off services to be sure no changes happen during the backup.) Because of idprio/nice you can still work it can still work on it. (make install or so) > What works for you? More importantly: Am i sending this to > the wrong list? And if so, could you point me in the right > direction? I would send this to the questions list. I adjusted the message accordingly. -- Best regards/Met vriendelijke groet, Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message