From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 1 3:30:58 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D0A37B401 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 03:30:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDBF43EA9 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 03:30:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (shub@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id h018o3f12589; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 03:50:04 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E0FF119.7792A270@mindspring.com> References: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> <3E0FF119.7792A270@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 02:27:54 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Backup Solutions Cc: Brad Knowles , Patrick Cable II , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:09 PM -0800 2002/12/29, Terry Lambert wrote: > For Windows and Macintosh, you are most likely to be using some > Microsoft based solution, like Access, or Access with a Microsoft > SQL back end. You say I'm going to be using *WHAT* to do a file/filesystem level backup of my Mac?!? You know, the one running MacOS X, which is a Mach kernel with a BSD userland? If you're talking databases on Macs, then you're probably talking Filemaker or something like that. And that's a totally different kettle of fish than anything related to anything remotely resembling anything relating to Microsoft. > In etiher case, the offline backup is still needed for the reasons > stated previously. That business uses tape to do a rotating offsite > backup, with an incremental and full archival dump schedule. These > require that people exit the applications, so it can be some work > walking around the office after hours, for the person doing it, if > anyone has left their machine on and accessing a record in any of > them. In our case, we're talking about laptops that will probably be somewhere else in the house, networked via 802.11b with a proper software VPN solution for real security. There would definitely need to be some automated process to fire up the backup script to run overnight, and to shut the machine down when it's done. >> Is there an Amanda PC/Windows client? Or an Amanda MacOS X >> client? > > There is one in beta right now. IT's available from: > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/amanda-win32/ > > It doesn't seem to have been updated since last June. 8-(. > > You probably are not going to find it useful, due to the "open > file backup" problem. The normal way to handle "open file backup" > on windows is to install an IFSMgr hook to hook calls into the > IFS manager. You can then use the existing open instance for the > file in question in order to back it up. Sounds good. I don't suppose anyone knows if anyone is ever planning on adding features like this to the Amanda PC client? > This is usually not > very satisfying for database files, since the transactional > representation of atomicity and/or idempotence to the application > are done at the database application level, and can't be guaranteed > at the IFSMgr level (there is no nesting information pushed by the > application to the IFSMgr, so you can wait for a 1->0 nesting level > for transactions in progress to complete, before doing your backup). While these issues may be important to others, we do not currently have any call for databases like this in our house. If we ever do have any databases, it will most likely be MySQL or PostgreSQL databases that I have on a FreeBSD server in the basement, and I'll have to figure out how to back that up as a separate issue. > The most common method is to export the FS as a share, and then > use Amanda with SAMBA (client) in order to back up the data; this > has the same problems. See the online book at: > > http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda.html > > specifically: > > http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda-13.html There are not currently any Unix filesystems in our house being exported via Samba, as there are currently not any Unix fileservers in the house. When I do set up the fileservers, there almost certainly won't ever be any databases running on the exported filesystems, so I would be inclined to believe that these filesystems should be backed up from the client side. As far as this specific stuff is concerned, I know Curt and used to work with him. I was an uncredited reviewer of _Using SANs and NAS_, and I imagine that I will probably be a reviewer for 2nd edition of his book on backups (whenever we get to that stage). I'm not worried so much about the server backup issues, at least not per se. I am more concerned about the client file/filesysystem backup issues, and how I can get that data onto a server where I can reliably back it up somewhere else. Moreover, I want to use freely available software and reasonably inexpensive hardware, which is a good part of the reason why FreeBSD would also be involved on the server side. >> What about the handling of tape swapping, archiving, and >> other things normally done with stackers and libraries? > > You use stackers and libraries. 8-). IIRC, Amanda doesn't support stackers or libraries. Are there any other tools that do? > In most cases, you are talking about spending money for commercial > software, since the professional database backup software is often > a seperate product add-on. At the moment, we're not using any database software, so anything specific to databases is not currently relevant, although I do want to keep these things in mind as I try to design a comprehensive backup solution. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message