From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 13 04:55:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DCE337B401 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 04:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kurdistan.ath.cx (adsl-64-169-155-173.dsl.chic01.pacbell.net [64.169.155.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2885643F75 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 04:55:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx) Received: from kurdistan.ath.cx (ns1 [127.0.0.1]) by kurdistan.ath.cx (8.12.8/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3DBtv04023655; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 04:55:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx) Received: (from sereciya@localhost) by kurdistan.ath.cx (8.12.8/8.12.6/Submit) id h3DBtvwc023654; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 04:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 04:55:57 -0700 From: =?unknown-8bit?Q?S=EAr=EAciya_Kurdistan=EE?= To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030413115557.GD22242@kurdistan.ath.cx> References: <20030413114437.GC22242@kurdistan.ath.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20030413114437.GC22242@kurdistan.ath.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: E-mail Scam, Addressess being collected of mailing list :: Advice Requested X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 11:55:58 -0000 Hello, I just recieved an e-mail from "lawmbeki100@indiatimes.com", India, and I recognized it as the Lawrence Mbeki Bank scam, which I heard about in our discussions with some friends. I have reason to believe that these scammers are collecting e-mail addresses of our mailing list users, I'm taking this very seriously and would like ask the more experienced of you on what action to take next. I have already forwarded the e-mail to the Federal Trade Commission "UCE@FTC.GOV", and I filled out their form to ensure that they have all the information needed, however, I think that something needs to be done to protect the mailing list users. What further action can be taken? All advice is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance. --$êrêciya Kurdistanî PS I will try to attach the original e-mail message, if it does not show up, please feel free to contact me. +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Welat xwe ava nake, dest bidin hevdu, pist nedin tu dijminî | | Riya azadiyê ne hêsan e, hêviya xwe bernedin, dema me | | nêzîk e. | | | | Hevaltî bi kesên du rû nekin, hevaltî bi hevdu ra bikin | | Ne ji hevaltiya wan kesên pêxwas û rû dirêj, ne bi wan | | kesên xwînperest, ne jî ji yên din. | | | | -$êrêciya Kurdistanî | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ translation provided on request: sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Apr 13 18:53:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A22937B401 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 18:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B345043FA3 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 18:53:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from user-0cev132.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.98] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 194tAB-0005cV-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 18:53:39 -0700 Received: (qmail 4552 invoked by uid 1001); 14 Apr 2003 01:53:31 -0000 Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:53:31 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx Message-ID: <20030414015331.GA4491@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: E-mail Scam, Addressess being collected of mailing list :: Advice Requested X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 01:53:40 -0000 sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx wrote: > I just recieved an e-mail from "lawmbeki100@indiatimes.com", India, and > I recognized it as the Lawrence Mbeki Bank scam, which I heard about in > our discussions with some friends. More accurately, it's the Nigerian 419 scam. I receive such mail several times a week. Don't worry about it -- if you don't respond nobody will care. If you want to take it up with someone, first read http://home.rica.net/alphae/419coal/ BTW, the scammer was probably not from India: anyone can get an email account from www.indiatimes.com (like yahoo or hotmail). > I have reason to believe that these scammers are collecting e-mail addresses > of our mailing list users, Yes they are, indeed, yes they are. > I'm taking this very seriously and would like > ask the more experienced of you on what action to take next. As far as spammers harvesting your email address goes: There's absolutely nothing you can do to stop them, if you post to mailing lists like these which are archived on the web. (There are lists whose archives consistently hide email addresses. As it happens, the FreeBSD archives on http://doc.freebsd.org show all email addresses. Even if they ceased, other archives elsewhere would continue to show them.) As for what you can do to avoid spam: install a filter at your end, like spamassassin. Or get rid of your email address and get a new one (thus also losing any legitimate mail sent there). Don't use a work-critical, storage-or-bandwidth-constrained or "private" email account to post on mailing lists. Users on unix-hosted mailservers probably have access to multiple email addresses by adding a +bar to their username (foo+bar@example.com will be delivered to foo@example.com), as was discussed on this list last week. You can use some such address to post to lists, and use procmail to filter replies to a low-priority mailbox. This is supported by recent sendmail, postfix (I think), and qmail (qmail by default uses - rather than +, and requires you to have a .qmail-bar forwarding file, I think.) But you cannot remove your email address from the spammers' lists once they've harvested it. - Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 14 02:05:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4201E37B401 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 02:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA2C943F3F for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 02:05:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388B6FD96 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 02:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with SMTP id 68169A913 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 02:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 02:04:06 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim To: FreeBSD-Chat Message-Id: <20030414020406.2d0b0fad.dmp@pantherdragon.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Any tricks for updating massive meta-ports like KDE? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:05:34 -0000 I recently updated my ports tree, and of course XFree86 and KDE3 have been updated. The problem is the size of these ports and their meta nature. Updating XFree86 means updating a dozen or more XFree86-* ports, Xft, and a handful of dependancies. Updating KDE3 is easily twice that, and the build time is huge. I don't trust portupgrade to get this kind of update right. Does anyone have any tricks for handling an update like this? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 14 02:08:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E03437B401 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 02:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seed.net.tw (sn12.seed.net.tw [139.175.54.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651A943FCB for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 02:08:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from leafy@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) Received: from [211.74.131.119] (port=50284 helo=chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) by seed.net.tw with esmtp (Seednet 4.10:3) id 194zxH-0003hn-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:08:47 +0800 Received: from chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (nobody@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h3E98kWN035868 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:08:47 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from leafy@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw) Received: (from leafy@localhost) by chihiro.leafy.idv.tw (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h3E98ktj035867 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:08:46 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:08:46 +0800 From: leafy To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030414090846.GB35826@chihiro.leafy.idv.tw> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030414020406.2d0b0fad.dmp@pantherdragon.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030414020406.2d0b0fad.dmp@pantherdragon.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: Any tricks for updating massive meta-ports like KDE? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:08:49 -0000 On Mon, Apr 14, 2003 at 02:04:06AM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > time is huge. I don't trust portupgrade to get this kind of update right. > Does anyone have any tricks for handling an update like this? You can learn to trust portupgrade :) I am serious. Do 'portupgrade -R kde' will get your port upgraded quite nicely. Jiawei Ye -- "Without the userland, the kernel is useless." --inspired by The Tao of Programming From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 14 09:55:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4596937B401 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.quidel.com (mail.quidel.com [63.125.144.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B34B743FBD for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:55:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from et@quidel.com) Received: FROM MAIL.kansas.us BY mail.quidel.com ; Mon Apr 14 09:54:31 2003 +0100 Received: by MAIL.kansas.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id <251D7LS6>; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:54:32 -0700 Message-ID: From: Etienne de Bruin To: "'chat@freebsd.org'" Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:54:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Workstations X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:55:17 -0000 Greetings - Our company is considering a move to Red Hat as an alternative for Windows workstations and I would like to present a healthy reason why FreeBSD would be a 'better' OS to install on our work stations. I know I can use the Ports collection as a reason, but I would need to present support as the main driving force. Red Hat is popular here because of the idea that it can be supported. Any ideas? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 14 10:32:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA14837B401 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from menkar.cifrid.net (menkar.cifrid.net [217.172.244.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF83743FCB for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:32:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from artur@cifrid.net) Received: from shiningdiamond.localnet ([192.168.0.11]:453 "EHLO shiningdiamond.localnet" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: ) by menkar.cifrid.net with ESMTP id ; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:32:21 +0200 To: Etienne de Bruin References: In-Reply-To: From: Artur Meski Date: 14 Apr 2003 19:32:50 +0200 Message-ID: <86of39m1bx.fsf@shiningdiamond.localnet> Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Workstations X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:32:23 -0000 Etienne de Bruin writes: > Greetings - Our company is considering a move to Red Hat as an alternative > for Windows workstations and I would like to present a healthy reason why > FreeBSD would be a 'better' OS to install on our work stations. I think, It can help you: http://www.lemis.com/bsdpaper.html -- // WWW: artur.black.pl // PGP: finger artur@heze.cifrid.net // From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 01:51:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1338F37B407 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 01:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7124C43F85 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 01:51:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.gorean.org (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with SMTP id <2003041508511300100ogjvge>; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:51:14 +0000 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 01:51:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Etienne de Bruin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030415015011.S2937@znfgre.tberna.bet> References: Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: "'chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: Workstations X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:51:18 -0000 On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Etienne de Bruin wrote: > Greetings - Our company is considering a move to Red Hat as an alternative > for Windows workstations and I would like to present a healthy reason why > FreeBSD would be a 'better' OS to install on our work stations. Here's a revolutionary idea... red hat may actually be a better desktop OS that FreeBSD. Personally I'd be focusing on the joy that is removal of more microsoft products. :) -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 02:18:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6777437B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (tulip.epweb.co.za [196.14.166.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C0243FBD for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (localhost.epweb.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h3F9I6df097192 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:18:06 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: (from ultraviolet@localhost) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.7/8.12.8/Submit) id h3F9I0mI097188 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:18:00 +0200 (SAST) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:18:00 +0200 From: William Fletcher To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030415091800.GW73158@tulip.epweb.co.za> References: <20030415015011.S2937@znfgre.tberna.bet> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JkgDhDyNm4zanevS" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030415015011.S2937@znfgre.tberna.bet> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Re: Workstations X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:18:41 -0000 --JkgDhDyNm4zanevS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, You said, sell them on the idea of ports, or, suggest it.=20 Anyway, suggest things like portupgrade, using nfs to store distfiles on one server. Very easy to upgrade. Perhaps setup a cvsup-mirror for your demonstrations. And, you'll need to sell them on the idea of a very pretty desktop enviroment, KDE3, Gnome. (I personally prefer windowmaker, but, that isn't going to hold water :/). Anyway, as for redhat, unfortunate to say, the installation is much prettie= r, and, everyone I work with, mostly linux fanatics (who haven't a clue)=20 prefer to install redhat, because text scares them. For some insane reason, management never likes good old black and white console.=20 What you really need to do is select a default layout of packages. Install the machine with that, in as little time as possible. Like, opera\mozilla, KDE3, evolution (puke)... And, make it look pretty.=20 On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 01:51:13AM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Etienne de Bruin wrote: >=20 > > Greetings - Our company is considering a move to Red Hat as an alternat= ive > > for Windows workstations and I would like to present a healthy reason w= hy > > FreeBSD would be a 'better' OS to install on our work stations. >=20 > Here's a revolutionary idea... red hat may actually be a better desktop > OS that FreeBSD. Personally I'd be focusing on the joy that is removal of > more microsoft products. :) >=20 > --=20 >=20 > This .signature sanitized for your protection > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" --=20 Epweb Computer Monkey William Fletcher IRC addict ultraviolet on irc.epweb.co.za FreeBSD http://www.FreeBSD.org/ --JkgDhDyNm4zanevS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+m85Gju3fq0dMPxsRAv9cAKCYn+X4LZxeehs5VzWRUffkYSjHwQCfZfJn jEEIKySbb+Ei8NnMoNYNNQY= =IhxC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --JkgDhDyNm4zanevS-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 08:40:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DDFF37B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.us.messagingengine.com (ny3.fastmail.fm [66.111.4.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B7E343F93 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:40:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from judmarc@fastmail.fm) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (server2.internal [10.202.2.133]) by server3.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F3956467; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1] helo=smtp.us2.messagingengine.com) by messagingengine.com with SMTP; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:40:32 -0400 Received: by smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id BDA934AB1B; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Jud" To: "Luciano Evaristo Guerche" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:40:32 -0400 X-Epoch: 1050421232 X-Sasl-enc: qWrfVZCbQcmewl1ys5P+uw References: In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <20030415154032.BDA934AB1B@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:40:37 -0000 On Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:17:24 -0300, "Luciano Evaristo Guerche" said: > Hi, > > I have heard FreeBSD is quite comparable to Linux and that is a very good > free OS. I would not use / adhere to it just because the logo it adopts. > How can a christian install an OS whose logo is a demon in his/her > computer? Hello, Luciano. I am replying on freebsd-chat, which is more appropriate for your question than -docs or -questions, I think. The logo is a "daemon," a term used in Unix to mean system processes that operate in the background. See, e.g., http://www.enderunix.org/docs/eng/daemon.php . I imagine (though I haven't researched the question) that this was thought to be a good logo for a Unix system that works reliably in the background without requiring user intervention. So the logo honors hard work and reliability, not the devil. Of course, if the picture continues to be repellent to you even after you know what it stands for, that is your prerogative - certainly no one will force you to have FreeBSD on your computer. The Internet, e-mail, or anything else that requires you to connect your computer to a network likely relies heavily on the work of Unix daemons. If the concept of "daemons" as related to computer operating systems bothers you, then you will probably want to use your computer as a standalone device only. Jud From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 12:32:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E48537B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C7943F93 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:32:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h3FJWfUE046338 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:32:41 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)h3FJWfWP046335 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:32:41 +0300 (EEST) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:32:41 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: "'chat@freebsd.org'" In-Reply-To: <20030415015011.S2937@znfgre.tberna.bet> Message-ID: <20030415222955.I75698-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: Workstations X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:32:44 -0000 On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Doug Barton wrote: > On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Etienne de Bruin wrote: > > > Greetings - Our company is considering a move to Red Hat as an alternative > > for Windows workstations and I would like to present a healthy reason why > > FreeBSD would be a 'better' OS to install on our work stations. > > Here's a revolutionary idea... red hat may actually be a better desktop > OS that FreeBSD. Personally I'd be focusing on the joy that is removal of > more microsoft products. :) > Or not - it depends on specifics. RH is not always such a nice ride on the desktop either. > -- > > This .signature sanitized for your protection > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 12:36:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B023C37B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c001.snv.cp.net (h020.c001.snv.cp.net [209.228.32.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D1C5943F75 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:36:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeff@walters.name) Received: (cpmta 28263 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 12:36:12 -0700 Received: from 24.216.194.242 (HELO 10.0.1.51) by smtp.register-admin.com (209.228.32.134) with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 12:36:12 -0700 X-Sent: 15 Apr 2003 19:36:12 GMT From: Jeff Walters To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:36:11 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3E9C2965.5080504@potentialtech.com> In-Reply-To: <3E9C2965.5080504@potentialtech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304151536.11960.jeff@walters.name> cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jeff@walters.name List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:36:17 -0000 Thread from freebsd-questions... On Tuesday 15 April 2003 11:46 am, Bill Moran wrote: > Luciano Evaristo Guerche wrote: > > I have heard FreeBSD is quite comparable to Linux and that is a very good > > free > > > > OS. I would not use / adhere to it just because the logo it adopts. How > > can a christian install an OS whose logo is a demon in his/her computer? > > There are a number of anecdotal stories about the use of the daemon (not > demon) as the BSD logo. It's fascinating that folks would apply such > significance to such a cute guy wearing such trendy sneakers. I know people in the BSD world are picky about the spelling of "daemon", but I can't figure out why. According to Merriam-Webster daemon is "variant of demon." The spelling doesn't matter to the meaning in common language, and it's not a trademark, so it must be a type of cult to be picky about it when people write "demon", or to intentionally avoid the more common spelling for the sake of distinctiveness and tradition. > Do some searches and the first thing you'll find is that Chuck (the daemon) > has not satanic or religious significance whatsoever. To shorten the > history: the term "daemon" means "something that is always there" in the > archiac sense. It was used to refer to a feeling, impulse or (in some > cases) the belief that a spirit was watching over one. It had no bias > toward good or evil. When the first Unix systems were developed, certain > programs were called "daemons" because the definition worked: they were > always there ... doing whateve their job was. Some time during the 70s, a > cartoonist drew up a cartoon picture of the daemon as the BSD logo, and the > image stuck. > > Similarly, the mainstream movie/telivision industry was giving the term > "demon" (and it's image) a bad name by portraying it as evil and/or an > emissary of satan. The modern view of what a daemon is (in addition to the > confusion between the two terms: daemon and demon) was probably created > mostly by the film industry. Look up the history of the "thumbs up" > gesture, to get an idea of how this sort of thing happens ... or the > history of the work "hacker" which is misunderstood by 99% of the US > population due to the mass media's terror tactics. I agree that usage of FreeBSD is most likely not going to harm your soul, but regardless of the origins of the misperceptions, it's clearly doesn't add to positive PR of FreeBSD. Definition 1(a) of "demon" in Merriam-Webster is "an evil spirit". (See www.m-w.com) Definition 2 is the FreeBSD definition, "an attendant power or spirit". Regardless of what BSD in general intends it to mean, the meaning to the uninvolved man on the street is a satanic image, dressed up like a cartoon. This reminds me a lot of the state flag debate going on here in Georgia, where there's a fight in the state government to put the old Confederate battle emblem back on the flag. Some say it's a symbol of racial hate, others say it's a symbol of southern heritage. Should we be concerned about those who are offended by the well-known symbol, which represents hate to them, even if others are not offended by it and find the symbol traditional? Likewise with the FreeBSD demon. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 12:36:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 936ED37B409 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from read.the.disastrous.info (read.the.disastrous.info [217.8.130.247]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FAB143F75 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:36:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from perarneh@online.no) Received: from jessie (jessie [192.168.168.32]) by read.the.disastrous.info (Postfix) with SMTP id EA7744024; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:36:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by jessie (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:36:28 +0200 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:36:28 +0200 From: "Per-Arne Holtmon Akø" To: Luciano Evaristo Guerche Message-ID: <20030415193628.GI80286@online.no> References: <20030415154032.BDA934AB1B@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zCKi3GIZzVBPywwA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030415154032.BDA934AB1B@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> X-Message-Flag: Outlook is bad for your Health (TM) X-PGP-Fingerprint: D734 9472 ACA1 0799 AFE2 1601 021F E4E9 5F21 820B cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:36:22 -0000 --zCKi3GIZzVBPywwA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, 15 April 2003 at 11:40:32 -0400, Jud wrote: > On Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:17:24 -0300, "Luciano Evaristo Guerche" > said: > > Hi, > >=20 > > I have heard FreeBSD is quite comparable to Linux and that is a very go= od > > free OS. I would not use / adhere to it just because the logo it adopts. > > How can a christian install an OS whose logo is a demon in his/her > > computer? >=20 > Hello, Luciano. I am replying on freebsd-chat, which is more appropriate > for your question than -docs or -questions, I think. The logo is a > "daemon," a term used in Unix to mean system processes that operate in > the background. See, e.g., http://www.enderunix.org/docs/eng/daemon.php > . I imagine (though I haven't researched the question) that this was > thought to be a good logo for a Unix system that works reliably in the > background without requiring user intervention. >=20 > So the logo honors hard work and reliability, not the devil. Of course, > if the picture continues to be repellent to you even after you know what > it stands for, that is your prerogative - certainly no one will force you > to have FreeBSD on your computer. >=20 > The Internet, e-mail, or anything else that requires you to connect your > computer to a network likely relies heavily on the work of Unix daemons.= =20 > If the concept of "daemons" as related to computer operating systems > bothers you, then you will probably want to use your computer as a > standalone device only. Daemon is actually an acronym for `Disk And Execution MONitor'. See http://catb.org/esr/jargon/html/entry/daemon.html for more information. --=20 vrak AKA Per-Arne Holtmon Ak=F8 E-mail: perarneh@online.no HP: http://read.the.disastrous.info/ --zCKi3GIZzVBPywwA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+nF88Ah/k6V8hggsRAp5nAJ9Lyyhx5RHS13EFqxc9msXtVNqk5QCdHliZ W6ktveVcyqfolNFTIMz2kbA= =LWLg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zCKi3GIZzVBPywwA-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 12:42:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1666C37B404 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif2-5-cust38.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.101.150.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3453143FBF for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.12) id 195WK5-000DV7-00; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:42:29 +0100 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:42:29 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: Jeff Walters Message-ID: <20030415194229.GA51798@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Jeff Walters , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3E9C2965.5080504@potentialtech.com> <200304151536.11960.jeff@walters.name> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200304151536.11960.jeff@walters.name> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:42:32 -0000 On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 03:36:11PM -0400, Jeff Walters wrote: > I agree that usage of FreeBSD is most likely not going to harm your soul, but > regardless of the origins of the misperceptions, it's clearly doesn't add to > positive PR of FreeBSD. Definition 1(a) of "demon" in Merriam-Webster is "an > evil spirit". (See www.m-w.com) Definition 2 is the FreeBSD definition, "an > attendant power or spirit". Webster's says different though: >From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]: Demon \De"mon\, n. [F. d['e]mon, L. daemon a spirit, an evil spirit, fr. Gr. ? a divinity; of uncertain origin.] 1. (Gr. Antiq.) A spirit, or immaterial being, holding a middle place between men and deities in pagan mythology. The demon kind is of an intermediate nature between the divine and the human. --Sydenham. 2. One's genius; a tutelary spirit or internal voice; as, the demon of Socrates. [Often written {d[ae]mon}.] 3. An evil spirit; a devil. That same demon that hath gulled thee thus. --Shak Ceri -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 12:43:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8DA37B405 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif2-5-cust38.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.101.150.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254F443FCB for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:43:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.12) id 195WL4-000DVZ-00; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:43:30 +0100 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:43:30 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: Per-Arne Holtmon =?unknown-8bit?B?QWv4?= Message-ID: <20030415194330.GB51798@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Per-Arne Holtmon =?unknown-8bit?B?QWv4?= , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030415154032.BDA934AB1B@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <20030415193628.GI80286@online.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20030415193628.GI80286@online.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:43:33 -0000 On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 09:36:28PM +0200, Per-Arne Holtmon Akø wrote: > Daemon is actually an acronym for `Disk And Execution MONitor'. See > http://catb.org/esr/jargon/html/entry/daemon.html for more information. Stinks like a backronym to me. Ceri -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 12:44:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E620B37B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F6B43F3F for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030415194441.TIIX25105.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:44:41 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030415203820.01dd56a8@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:44:37 +0100 To: jeff@walters.name, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <200304151536.11960.jeff@walters.name> References: <3E9C2965.5080504@potentialtech.com> <3E9C2965.5080504@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:44:44 -0000 At 15:36 15/04/2003 -0400, Jeff Walters wrote: >I know people in the BSD world are picky about the spelling of "daemon", >but I >can't figure out why. According to Merriam-Webster daemon is "variant of >demon." The spelling doesn't matter to the meaning in common language, and >it's not a trademark, so it must be a type of cult to be picky about it when >people write "demon", or to intentionally avoid the more common spelling for >the sake of distinctiveness and tradition. I think it's a case of American illiteracy. My copy of the Oxford English Dictionary clearly lists: daemon n. (in ancient Greek belief) a divinity or supernatural being of a nature between gods and humans. an inner or attendant spirit or inspiring force. demon n. an evil spirit or devil. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 12:57:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D78737B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c001.snv.cp.net (h013.c001.snv.cp.net [209.228.32.127]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C0CEC43FDF for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeff@walters.name) Received: (cpmta 17744 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 12:57:29 -0700 Received: from 24.216.194.242 (HELO 10.0.1.51) by smtp.register-admin.com (209.228.32.127) with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 12:57:29 -0700 X-Sent: 15 Apr 2003 19:57:29 GMT From: Jeff Walters To: Colin Percival , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:57:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3E9C2965.5080504@potentialtech.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20030415203820.01dd56a8@popserver.sfu.ca> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030415203820.01dd56a8@popserver.sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304151557.28415.jeff@walters.name> cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jeff@walters.name List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 19:57:31 -0000 On Tuesday 15 April 2003 03:44 pm, Colin Percival wrote: > At 15:36 15/04/2003 -0400, Jeff Walters wrote: > >I know people in the BSD world are picky about the spelling of "daemon", > >but I > >can't figure out why. According to Merriam-Webster daemon is "variant of > >demon." The spelling doesn't matter to the meaning in common language, > > and it's not a trademark, so it must be a type of cult to be picky about > > it when people write "demon", or to intentionally avoid the more common > > spelling for the sake of distinctiveness and tradition. > > I think it's a case of American illiteracy. My copy of the Oxford > English Dictionary clearly lists: > > daemon n. (in ancient Greek belief) a divinity or supernatural being of a > nature between gods and humans. > an inner or attendant spirit or inspiring force. > > demon n. an evil spirit or devil. > > Colin Percival Yeah, but you guys (assuming you're from Britain) spell it colour and not color. What gives? :) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 13:12:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC66E37B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c001.snv.cp.net (h007.c001.snv.cp.net [209.228.32.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C044443F3F for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:12:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeff@walters.name) Received: (cpmta 9626 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2003 13:12:57 -0700 Received: from 24.216.194.242 (HELO 10.0.1.51) by smtp.register-admin.com (209.228.32.121) with SMTP; 15 Apr 2003 13:12:57 -0700 X-Sent: 15 Apr 2003 20:12:57 GMT From: Jeff Walters To: Ceri Davies Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:12:56 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <200304151536.11960.jeff@walters.name> <20030415194229.GA51798@submonkey.net> In-Reply-To: <20030415194229.GA51798@submonkey.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304151612.56216.jeff@walters.name> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jeff@walters.name List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:13:00 -0000 On Tuesday 15 April 2003 03:42 pm, Ceri Davies wrote: > On Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 03:36:11PM -0400, Jeff Walters wrote: > > I agree that usage of FreeBSD is most likely not going to harm your soul, > > but regardless of the origins of the misperceptions, it's clearly doesn't > > add to positive PR of FreeBSD. Definition 1(a) of "demon" in > > Merriam-Webster is "an evil spirit". (See www.m-w.com) Definition 2 is > > the FreeBSD definition, "an attendant power or spirit". > > Webster's says different though: > If I remember my high school English teacher correctly, Merriam-Webster is the one true Webster. Something about the person named Webster being sloppy about the legal side and somehow losing the general term Webster to the public domain; Merriam-Webster is the actual trademarked descendant of that original Webster, and I believe it's the only one a respectable (American) English teacher would use. :) This isn't even FreeBSD chat any more. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 13:13:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BDAD37B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DE843F75 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AAFD3CEE; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A78CE0; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:13:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Jeff Walters In-Reply-To: <200304151557.28415.jeff@walters.name> Message-ID: <20030415131245.G46401-100000@moo.sysabend.org> X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:13:28 -0000 On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Jeff Walters wrote: > On Tuesday 15 April 2003 03:44 pm, Colin Percival wrote: > > I think it's a case of American illiteracy. My copy of the Oxford > > English Dictionary clearly lists: > > > > daemon n. (in ancient Greek belief) a divinity or supernatural being of a > > nature between gods and humans. > > an inner or attendant spirit or inspiring force. > > > > demon n. an evil spirit or devil. > Yeah, but you guys (assuming you're from Britain) spell it colour and not > color. What gives? :) They can't sluff off those Norman spellings foisted upon them so long ago. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 13:20:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7626537B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-122.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C01D143F93 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:20:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h3FKKYJP017607; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:20:35 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3E9C6992.90403@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:20:34 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030301 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jeff@walters.name References: <3E9C2965.5080504@potentialtech.com> <200304151536.11960.jeff@walters.name> In-Reply-To: <200304151536.11960.jeff@walters.name> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:20:37 -0000 Jeff Walters wrote: > Thread from freebsd-questions... > On Tuesday 15 April 2003 11:46 am, Bill Moran wrote: >>Luciano Evaristo Guerche wrote: >>>I have heard FreeBSD is quite comparable to Linux and that is a very good >>>free >> >> > OS. I would not use / adhere to it just because the logo it adopts. How >> > can a christian install an OS whose logo is a demon in his/her computer? >> >>There are a number of anecdotal stories about the use of the daemon (not >>demon) as the BSD logo. It's fascinating that folks would apply such >>significance to such a cute guy wearing such trendy sneakers. > > I know people in the BSD world are picky about the spelling of "daemon", but I > can't figure out why. According to Merriam-Webster daemon is "variant of > demon." The spelling doesn't matter to the meaning in common language, and > it's not a trademark, so it must be a type of cult to be picky about it when > people write "demon", or to intentionally avoid the more common spelling for > the sake of distinctiveness and tradition. I don't really lend much credence to the accuracy of definitions in Merriam- Webster. I know that's ironic, in that I often quote their definitions, but it's only because they are the best free, online dictionary I've found so far: that doesn't put them into the "good" category. As Colin Percival pointed out, the Oxford dictionary is much more complete. >>Do some searches and the first thing you'll find is that Chuck (the daemon) >>has not satanic or religious significance whatsoever. To shorten the >>history: the term "daemon" means "something that is always there" in the >>archiac sense. It was used to refer to a feeling, impulse or (in some >>cases) the belief that a spirit was watching over one. It had no bias >>toward good or evil. When the first Unix systems were developed, certain >>programs were called "daemons" because the definition worked: they were >>always there ... doing whateve their job was. Some time during the 70s, a >>cartoonist drew up a cartoon picture of the daemon as the BSD logo, and the >>image stuck. >> >>Similarly, the mainstream movie/telivision industry was giving the term >>"demon" (and it's image) a bad name by portraying it as evil and/or an >>emissary of satan. The modern view of what a daemon is (in addition to the >>confusion between the two terms: daemon and demon) was probably created >>mostly by the film industry. Look up the history of the "thumbs up" >>gesture, to get an idea of how this sort of thing happens ... or the >>history of the work "hacker" which is misunderstood by 99% of the US >>population due to the mass media's terror tactics. > > I agree that usage of FreeBSD is most likely not going to harm your soul, but > regardless of the origins of the misperceptions, it's clearly doesn't add to > positive PR of FreeBSD. Definition 1(a) of "demon" in Merriam-Webster is "an > evil spirit". (See www.m-w.com) Definition 2 is the FreeBSD definition, "an > attendant power or spirit". Regardless of what BSD in general intends it to > mean, the meaning to the uninvolved man on the street is a satanic image, > dressed up like a cartoon. Agreed. However, catering to the uneducated isn't a policy that will take anyone to anywhere good. I think we have to work to educate, instead of dumbing down our existence to match the poor level of the average education. Which is what many (including myself) tried to do with our responses to this thread. Unfortunately, a recent post has convinced me that the original poster was little more than a Troll. Although we'll find interest in discussing the semantics and/or implecations of the daemon, he couldn't care less. > This reminds me a lot of the state flag debate going on here in Georgia, where > there's a fight in the state government to put the old Confederate battle > emblem back on the flag. Some say it's a symbol of racial hate, others say > it's a symbol of southern heritage. Should we be concerned about those who > are offended by the well-known symbol, which represents hate to them, even if > others are not offended by it and find the symbol traditional? Likewise with > the FreeBSD demon. It's a difficult decision, to be sure. One thing I've learned is that no matter what you do, someone will be upset with it. You have to look at your own set of values and determine whether you feel you are doing the right thing or not. For me, to lay some terrible significance on a cartoon image is to lose track of what's really important. To get _so_ serious about a cartoon mascot, and replace the original jestful nature in which it was intended with some sort of super-serious contemplation is A Bad Thing (tm). Besides, anyone who is honestly that uptight won't enjoy FreeBSD anyway. This is just part of the process by which we eliminate the people who don't really belong in the FreeBSD community. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed above are my own and in no way represent the offically stated opinions of the FreeBSD project, or my cat, who is a Satan worshipper. This offends my dog, who believes that FreeBSD (along with cats) is an evil plot to destroy the world of canines and lets me hear about it every chance he gets. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 14:23:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089D537B40C for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [64.124.90.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A1F043F75 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:23:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (vorlon1.webweaver.net [67.112.21.26]) by krell.webweaver.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC8020F39 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3E9C6992.90403@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:23:05 -0800 (PDT) From: Nicole To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:23:08 -0000 A couple of points... 1) We are Americans.. But we speak English. Were did English come from? Well.. England. So to me, a true source of reference would be the Oxford English Dictionary. At least for those words with any "age" to them. However you must also remember that the big difference between English and other languages is that we "adopted" many foreign words and we continue to make up or add new ones. I love listening to people speak another language because I find it so interesting that the only way for them to truly describe many things is to use an "English" word because they have no word for it. 2) I had a company (now its just sort of in storage during this cold time) named Daemon Technologies or Daemontech for short. I also trade on ebay with the name daemontech. I have actually had people give me a hard time, question me etc because of the name. They too claimed to be "good Christian's" and said it was evil. Of course my reply was do you eat meat on Friday's? So actually as silly as it seems, the stigma does exist however it is to a Very Small group of people. Of course it is always a problem when something has multiple meanings or interpretations. Of course if you really want to be "Evil" just remind them that most all the computers out there handling information systems use "daemons". Thus the "demons" know all about you ;) Oh. and on a side note.. Becouse I have lovable chuckie as a tattoo I learned that some people though me to be a devil worshiper. Pa-lease. From seeing Chuckie? Nicole On 15-Apr-03 My Homeland Security Spies reported that Bill Moran said: > Jeff Walters wrote: >> Thread from freebsd-questions... >> On Tuesday 15 April 2003 11:46 am, Bill Moran wrote: >>>Luciano Evaristo Guerche wrote: >>>>I have heard FreeBSD is quite comparable to Linux and that is a very good >>>>free >>> >>> > OS. I would not use / adhere to it just because the logo it adopts. How >>> > can a christian install an OS whose logo is a demon in his/her computer? >>> >>>There are a number of anecdotal stories about the use of the daemon (not >>>demon) as the BSD logo. It's fascinating that folks would apply such >>>significance to such a cute guy wearing such trendy sneakers. >> >> I know people in the BSD world are picky about the spelling of "daemon", but >> I >> can't figure out why. According to Merriam-Webster daemon is "variant of >> demon." The spelling doesn't matter to the meaning in common language, and >> it's not a trademark, so it must be a type of cult to be picky about it when >> people write "demon", or to intentionally avoid the more common spelling for >> the sake of distinctiveness and tradition. > > I don't really lend much credence to the accuracy of definitions in Merriam- > Webster. I know that's ironic, in that I often quote their definitions, but > it's only because they are the best free, online dictionary I've found so > far: > that doesn't put them into the "good" category. > As Colin Percival pointed out, the Oxford dictionary is much more complete. > >>>Do some searches and the first thing you'll find is that Chuck (the daemon) >>>has not satanic or religious significance whatsoever. To shorten the >>>history: the term "daemon" means "something that is always there" in the >>>archiac sense. It was used to refer to a feeling, impulse or (in some >>>cases) the belief that a spirit was watching over one. It had no bias >>>toward good or evil. When the first Unix systems were developed, certain >>>programs were called "daemons" because the definition worked: they were >>>always there ... doing whateve their job was. Some time during the 70s, a >>>cartoonist drew up a cartoon picture of the daemon as the BSD logo, and the >>>image stuck. >>> >>>Similarly, the mainstream movie/telivision industry was giving the term >>>"demon" (and it's image) a bad name by portraying it as evil and/or an >>>emissary of satan. The modern view of what a daemon is (in addition to the >>>confusion between the two terms: daemon and demon) was probably created >>>mostly by the film industry. Look up the history of the "thumbs up" >>>gesture, to get an idea of how this sort of thing happens ... or the >>>history of the work "hacker" which is misunderstood by 99% of the US >>>population due to the mass media's terror tactics. >> >> I agree that usage of FreeBSD is most likely not going to harm your soul, >> but >> regardless of the origins of the misperceptions, it's clearly doesn't add to >> positive PR of FreeBSD. Definition 1(a) of "demon" in Merriam-Webster is >> "an >> evil spirit". (See www.m-w.com) Definition 2 is the FreeBSD definition, >> "an >> attendant power or spirit". Regardless of what BSD in general intends it to >> mean, the meaning to the uninvolved man on the street is a satanic image, >> dressed up like a cartoon. > > Agreed. However, catering to the uneducated isn't a policy that will take > anyone to anywhere good. I think we have to work to educate, instead of > dumbing > down our existence to match the poor level of the average education. Which > is > what many (including myself) tried to do with our responses to this thread. > > Unfortunately, a recent post has convinced me that the original poster was > little more than a Troll. Although we'll find interest in discussing the > semantics and/or implecations of the daemon, he couldn't care less. > >> This reminds me a lot of the state flag debate going on here in Georgia, >> where >> there's a fight in the state government to put the old Confederate battle >> emblem back on the flag. Some say it's a symbol of racial hate, others say >> it's a symbol of southern heritage. Should we be concerned about those who >> are offended by the well-known symbol, which represents hate to them, even >> if >> others are not offended by it and find the symbol traditional? Likewise >> with >> the FreeBSD demon. > > It's a difficult decision, to be sure. One thing I've learned is that no > matter > what you do, someone will be upset with it. You have to look at your own set > of values and determine whether you feel you are doing the right thing or > not. > > For me, to lay some terrible significance on a cartoon image is to lose track > of what's really important. To get _so_ serious about a cartoon mascot, and > replace the original jestful nature in which it was intended with some sort > of > super-serious contemplation is A Bad Thing (tm). > > Besides, anyone who is honestly that uptight won't enjoy FreeBSD anyway. > This > is just part of the process by which we eliminate the people who don't really > belong in the FreeBSD community. > > Disclaimer: > The opinions expressed above are my own and in no way represent the offically > stated opinions of the FreeBSD project, or my cat, who is a Satan worshipper. > This offends my dog, who believes that FreeBSD (along with cats) is an evil > plot to destroy the world of canines and lets me hear about it every chance > he gets. > > -- > Bill Moran > Potential Technologies > http://www.potentialtech.com > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- ******* |\ __ /| (`\ ******* * * | o_o |__ ) ) * * * * // \\ * * * Blessed Be! | Powered by FreeBSD * ----------------------(((---(((-------------------------------- http://www.unixgirl.com - http://www.deviantimages.com http://www.drumslayer.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." --Willy Wonka, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. "Witchcraft is in essence the worship of the powers of this world, beautiful and terrible, but all in a circle under the turning sky that is the One." -C.A. Burland, "Echoes of Magic" "Connecting with energy is something humans have to be open to and talking about and expecting, otherwise the whole human race can go back to pretending that life is about power over others and exploiting the planet. If we go back to doing this, then we won't survive." -James Redfield, "The Celestine Prophecy" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 16:53:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2600C37B428 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A09D43F93 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0091.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.91] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 195aFO-0004T1-00; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:53:55 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9C9B36.2F966FE2@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:52:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jeff@walters.name References: <200304151536.11960.jeff@walters.name> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a47d8dc65b65bb50e6938527134c5f06eea7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:53:58 -0000 Jeff Walters wrote: > I know people in the BSD world are picky about the spelling of "daemon", but I > can't figure out why. According to Merriam-Webster daemon is "variant of > demon." The spelling doesn't matter to the meaning in common language, and > it's not a trademark, so it must be a type of cult to be picky about it when > people write "demon", or to intentionally avoid the more common spelling for > the sake of distinctiveness and tradition. Actually, that's not correct. See: http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Daemon.html Specifically, the part about James Maxwell's gendanken experiment. > I agree that usage of FreeBSD is most likely not going to harm your soul, but > regardless of the origins of the misperceptions, it's clearly doesn't add to > positive PR of FreeBSD. Definition 1(a) of "demon" in Merriam-Webster is "an > evil spirit". (See www.m-w.com) Definition 2 is the FreeBSD definition, "an > attendant power or spirit". Regardless of what BSD in general intends it to > mean, the meaning to the uninvolved man on the street is a satanic image, > dressed up like a cartoon. Only to people who are unaware of the history of science. We don't like those people anyway. 8-). > This reminds me a lot of the state flag debate going on here in Georgia, where > there's a fight in the state government to put the old Confederate battle > emblem back on the flag. Some say it's a symbol of racial hate, others say > it's a symbol of southern heritage. Should we be concerned about those who > are offended by the well-known symbol, which represents hate to them, even if > others are not offended by it and find the symbol traditional? Likewise with > the FreeBSD demon. Frankly, penguins terrify most of us on this list... But not as much as political correctness revisionists who try to turn the entire world into something that might have been manufactured by Fisher-Price. PS: Next time use a better dictionary; I reccomend the Oxford English Dictionary. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 16:57:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EAC737B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kurdistan.ath.cx (adsl-64-169-155-173.dsl.chic01.pacbell.net [64.169.155.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38CC043F85 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:57:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx) Received: from kurdistan.ath.cx (ns1 [127.0.0.1]) by kurdistan.ath.cx (8.12.8/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3FNv104020607; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:57:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx) Received: (from sereciya@localhost) by kurdistan.ath.cx (8.12.8/8.12.6/Submit) id h3FNv1qf020606; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:57:01 -0700 From: =?unknown-8bit?Q?S=EAr=EAciya_Kurdistan=EE?= To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030415235701.GA16666@kurdistan.ath.cx> References: <3E9C6992.90403@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:57:02 -0000 Hello, > 1) We are Americans.. But we speak English. Were did English come from? Well.. > England. So to me, a true source of reference would be the Oxford English > Dictionary. English may have originaly come from England, however, American English has in many ways departed from the original. It also helps to remember that English has many foreign words in it. > However you must also remember that the big difference between English and > other languages is that we "adopted" many foreign words and we continue to make > up or add new ones. That is precisely true. English, like most languages is not homogeneous. Anyone who has had any schooling at all knows that English has many Greek, Latin, German, French, and Arabic words among others. > I love listening to people speak another language because I find it so > interesting that the only way for them to truly describe many things is to use > an "English" word because they have no word for it. Right. They use an English word because they think that it has a more suitable definition to the word if only they knew that the word does not make as much sense as you might think. Remember... there is also another matter: not all imported words are used with the original definition. Sometimes we "think" that we understand a word, and we end up using it in a similar context, but never the less different. Take the words "fare well" for example. English speaking folk commonly use this to mean "good bye". It just happens to be French, and what it really means is "do well"; not really having anything to do with travel or even departure. > the name daemontech. I have actually had people give me a hard time, question > me etc because of the name. They too claimed to be "good Christian's" and said > it was evil. Of course my reply was do you eat meat on Friday's? Back to the Daemon/Demon issue... I honestly can *not* believe that in this day and age that there are people acting as though they are still living in the dark ages. Got Witchhunt? This is a real embarressment to any and all educated persons to have to hear this kind of nonsense. > So actually as silly as it seems, the stigma does exist however it is to a Very > Small group of people. Yes indeed. A group of very interesting characters who have far too much time to analyse such small things. > Of course it is always a problem when something has multiple meanings or > interpretations. Apparently, common logic has not prevailed over them. > Of course if you really want to be "Evil" just remind them that most all the > computers out there handling information systems use "daemons". Thus the > "demons" know all about you ;) I already warned them about the /dev/null lurking nearby. If daemons bother you, you'd better just stay away from all Unices ;) --$êrêciya Kurdistanî +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Welat xwe ava nake, dest bidin hevdu, pist nedin tu dijminî | | Riya azadiyê ne hêsan e, hêviya xwe bernedin, dema me | | nêzîk e. | | | | Hevaltî bi kesên du rû nekin, hevaltî bi hevdu ra bikin | | Ne ji hevaltiya wan kesên pêxwas û rû dirêj, ne bi wan | | kesên xwînperest, ne jî ji yên din. | | | | -$êrêciya Kurdistanî | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ translation provided on request: sereciya at kurdistan.ath.cx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 17:12:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB8037B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-122.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE6843F3F for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:12:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h3G0CAJP017708; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:12:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3E9C9FDA.50809@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:12:10 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030301 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <3E9C2965.5080504@potentialtech.com> <37of37bi5i.f37@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <37of37bi5i.f37@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 00:12:13 -0000 Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >>To shorten the history: the >>term "daemon" means "something that is always there" in the archiac sense. > > [snip] > >>Similarly, the mainstream movie/telivision industry was giving the term "demon" >>(and it's image) a bad name by portraying it as evil and/or an emissary of satan. >>The modern view of what a daemon is (in addition to the confusion between the >>two terms: daemon and demon) was probably created mostly by the film industry. > > So you're going to hold people to the archiac view? Bad plan. No ... I'm asking them to understand the origin of the term and not be ignorant. I'm also asking them not to arbitrarily associate symbols with ideas they aren't supposed to represent. > My large American Heritage dictionary says that "daemon" means "demon". > (Actually, it says it's a variant of "demon", and that's all it says). Never been a big fan of the American Heritage either but it's not even relevent. The fact is: the original prompting for the use of the daemon image was the archaic meaning. Archaic means no longer used, so it warrants an explanation. The fact that he decided to be offended in spite of the true reason is his right. I did my part by educating. If I decide to name my dog "Daemon" because I think Daemon means dog, then that's the reason the dog it named Daemon. There is not other reason ... and the fact that I was wrong about the definition of Daemon does not change the reason. Some people would claim that the hidden thing going on is that I was posessed by Satan when I made that decision or something, and they may well be correct ... I'm not going to argue with them. I just state the facts and allow them to make their own decisions. > So it's not a good idea to make assumptions about what people might > think either term might mean, outside of good context. In the case of > BSD, the context is good enough for me and for most, but of course it > will not be enough for others who have stonger feelings about religious > imagery. It's a shame they can't be accommodated in this trivial matter. You're absolutely correct. It's poor form to make assumptions. That's why myself and others explained the reason. That's why the reason is explained on the official web page for the BSD Daemon. Just because you think something at one point doesn't mean you have to think that forever. If you can't adapt to new information, then you're incapable of learning. >>Look up the history of the "thumbs up" gesture, to get an idea of how this sort >>of thing happens ... or the history of the work "hacker" which is misunderstood >>by 99% of the US population due to the mass media's terror tactics. > > You might also look up the history of the swastica and the star of > david; neither had their current associations before the 19th century. > I doubt that any OS producer would use those in their logo, despite any > desire to avoid their modern associations. The case is much less strong > for a demon image, but I sure wish the BSD logo people would be more > accommodating of the feelings of others. I have no doubt that thier > choice has reduced the support of BSD OSes significantly; it is a > frivolous and foolish choice made for mostly prideful reasons. Truely ... if, in the early 1900s I had adopted the swastica as a symbol for a peace movement and was then overshadowed by the use of the same symbol for the terrible Nazi activities of WWII ... then I would be in the same boat. AND I would have every right to continue to use that symbol if I so chose as well as explain (at great length) to everyone what it really meant if I desired to. That's called freedom. It may not be good marketing, I agree. However, I don't feel that the same situation applies for the beastie. These "I won't use FreeBSD because of the symbology" complaints occur very seldom. There are more cases per month of people crying that they'll use Windows instead because they couldn't figure BSD out. I can only state my opinion. I'm not part of FreeBSD in any "offical" capacity, and I don't have the right to say what logo can or can't be used. I just think that it's a good logo becuase it's cute, it's well- recognized and it's got a proud tradition. Someone else may overrule me to have it changed ... but (as is my right) I will still have my opinion. >>If you find him offensive, please do not compromise your religious beliefs just >>to use FreeBSD. You'll be much better off using Windows. A company that lies, >>cheats, and steals may sit much better with your religious beliefs than a >>community-oriented organization that happens to use a daemon as a logo. > > That's a good example of the spirit behind much support of the continued > use of the logo: to spite and humiliate the religious among us. It's an > attitude that might make this athiest switch to Windows, if I thought > such ugly religious intolerance was any less common amoung Windows users. I'm not intolerant of religions. I am intolerant of ignorance. He has his free will to decide. He can continue to use FreeBSD and be offended, or use any number of other available alternatives to relieve his upset. I simply stated my opinion that basing his decision on the package and not the contents is wrong. I stand by that opinion as I always have. To base ones use of an OS on whether or not they like the logo instead of the practices of those generating the OS and the usability of the OS is foolish in my opinion. >>I don't know of any OS that uses a demon as a logo. > > But other people with other definitions than yours do know of such OSes; > namely, FreeBSD and NetBSD. I'm not sure about OpenBSD; they seem to > have switched the logo on their CD (many releases ago) from the > demon/daemon to some kind of fish (which looks nothing like the > Christian fish logo, but I wonder...). Or the Darwin fish logo ... which is silly. And with that paragraph ... you make my point exactly. Most people know that the OpenBSD fish is a blowfish ... modeled after the blowfish algorith used for encrytion ... but others may find it offensive if they believe that it relates to Christianity and they're not Christian. They may find the OpenBSD Cop offensive because it reminds them of Police creulity and totalitarianism. This is why lawyers rule this planet ... becuase everyone wants to be sooooo careful to offend nobody. I say "be offended". That's part of life. I'm offended by many things: spam, the constant marketing concept that everything can be solved with a drug, the food preparation done by most fast-food stores, the constant requirement to validate of my non-criminality to almost the entire world. Nobody's worried about offending me. If I turn on the TV, I get it at every commercial break. Perhaps it goes on because I don't raise a big fuss about it. And perhaps that is a failing on my part. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 17:15:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624B937B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F5243F75 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:15:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.comESMTP <20030416001507.PBCF311.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:15:07 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030416010620.0310a270@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:15:04 +0100 To: , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20030415235701.GA16666@kurdistan.ath.cx> References: <3E9C6992.90403@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 00:15:09 -0000 At 16:57 15/04/2003 -0700, sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx wrote: > Take the words "fare well" for example. English speaking folk commonly use > this to mean "good bye". It just happens to be French, and what it really > means is "do well"; not really having anything to do with travel or even > departure. You'd better explain that to the OED editors, then. They list "faer" as meaning "a going, journeying; course, passage, way; voyage" dating back to c1000, and "fara" as meaning "to journey, travel, make one's way" back to 971. ("fair", "faron", "faren", and "farand" are also used in the same meaning over the next few centuries.) Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 17:31:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E802237B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kurdistan.ath.cx (adsl-64-169-155-173.dsl.chic01.pacbell.net [64.169.155.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1439E43F93 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:31:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx) Received: from kurdistan.ath.cx (ns1 [127.0.0.1]) by kurdistan.ath.cx (8.12.8/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3G0VW04021391 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:31:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx) Received: (from sereciya@localhost) by kurdistan.ath.cx (8.12.8/8.12.6/Submit) id h3G0VWPl021390 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:31:32 -0700 From: =?unknown-8bit?Q?S=EAr=EAciya_Kurdistan=EE?= To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030416003132.GC20689@kurdistan.ath.cx> References: <3E9C6992.90403@potentialtech.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20030416010620.0310a270@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030416010620.0310a270@popserver.sfu.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 00:31:33 -0000 Hello, > You'd better explain that to the OED editors, then. They list "faer" as > meaning "a going, journeying; course, passage, way; voyage" dating back to > c1000, and "fara" as meaning "to journey, travel, make one's way" back to > 971. ("fair", "faron", "faren", and "farand" are also used in the same > meaning over the next few centuries.) Just who lists "faer" as meaning that? I'd love to see your sources. --$êrêciya Kurdistanî +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Welat xwe ava nake, dest bidin hevdu, pist nedin tu dijminî | | Riya azadiyê ne hêsan e, hêviya xwe bernedin, dema me | | nêzîk e. | | | | Hevaltî bi kesên du rû nekin, hevaltî bi hevdu ra bikin | | Ne ji hevaltiya wan kesên pêxwas û rû dirêj, ne bi wan | | kesên xwînperest, ne jî ji yên din. | | | | -$êrêciya Kurdistanî | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ translation provided on request: sereciya at kurdistan.ath.cx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 17:52:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403C337B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntli.com (pc1-glfd2-4-cust59.glfd.cable.ntl.com [81.99.187.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA54543F85 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:52:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from aqua.lan.palfreman.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntli.com (8.12.3p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h3G0wxuG023301 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:58:59 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from localhost (william@localhost)h3G0wxfb023298 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:58:59 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: aqua.lan.palfreman.com: william owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:58:59 +0100 (BST) From: William Palfreman To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200304151557.28415.jeff@walters.name> Message-ID: <20030416014930.G57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> References: <3E9C2965.5080504@potentialtech.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20030415203820.01dd56a8@popserver.sfu.ca> <200304151557.28415.jeff@walters.name> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 00:52:05 -0000 On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Jeff Walters wrote: > Yeah, but you guys (assuming you're from Britain) spell it colour and not > color. What gives? :) Because that's how it's pronounced. English often has more distinctive vowel sounds than American English. We say it like col'er, you people say coll-or. Remember that for us, "Marry merry Mary" are three words that actually sound different :-) Bill. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 18:13:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C22D37B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntli.com (pc1-glfd2-4-cust59.glfd.cable.ntl.com [81.99.187.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C91443FA3 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:13:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from aqua.lan.palfreman.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntli.com (8.12.3p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h3G1K0uG023411; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 02:20:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from localhost (william@localhost)h3G1K0BL023408; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 02:20:00 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: aqua.lan.palfreman.com: william owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 02:20:00 +0100 (BST) From: William Palfreman To: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030416010620.0310a270@popserver.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <20030416021108.H57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> References: <3E9C6992.90403@potentialtech.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20030416010620.0310a270@popserver.sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT cc: sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:13:05 -0000 On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > You'd better explain that to the OED editors, then. They list "faer" as > meaning "a going, journeying; course, passage, way; voyage" dating back to > c1000, and "fara" as meaning "to journey, travel, make one's way" back to > 971. ("fair", "faron", "faren", and "farand" are also used in the same > meaning over the next few centuries.) Don't forget ferry. Oder F„hre auf deutsch. Und Fahren. They all have the same root. Bill. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 18:27:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D3637B401 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kurdistan.ath.cx (adsl-64-169-155-173.dsl.chic01.pacbell.net [64.169.155.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D483E43FBD for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:27:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx) Received: from kurdistan.ath.cx (ns1 [127.0.0.1]) by kurdistan.ath.cx (8.12.8/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3G1Rx04022637 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:27:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx) Received: (from sereciya@localhost) by kurdistan.ath.cx (8.12.8/8.12.6/Submit) id h3G1Rxqg022636 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:27:59 -0700 From: =?unknown-8bit?Q?S=EAr=EAciya_Kurdistan=EE?= To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030416012759.GE20689@kurdistan.ath.cx> References: <3E9C6992.90403@potentialtech.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20030416010620.0310a270@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030416021108.H57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20030416021108.H57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:28:00 -0000 Hello, > > You'd better explain that to the OED editors, then. They list "faer" as > > meaning "a going, journeying; course, passage, way; voyage" dating back to > > c1000, and "fara" as meaning "to journey, travel, make one's way" back to > > 971. ("fair", "faron", "faren", and "farand" are also used in the same > > meaning over the next few centuries.) > > Don't forget ferry. Oder F?hre auf deutsch. Und Fahren. They all have > the same root. You're absolutely correct. All of those words are derived from the older Germanic root word "fer"/"faer". --$êrêciya Kurdistanî +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Welat xwe ava nake, dest bidin hevdu, pist nedin tu dijminî | | Riya azadiyê ne hêsan e, hêviya xwe bernedin, dema me | | nêzîk e. | | | | Hevaltî bi kesên du rû nekin, hevaltî bi hevdu ra bikin | | Ne ji hevaltiya wan kesên pêxwas û rû dirêj, ne bi wan | | kesên xwînperest, ne jî ji yên din. | | | | -$êrêciya Kurdistanî | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ translation provided on request: sereciya at kurdistan.ath.cx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 03:46:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642EC37B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 03:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from murdoch.servitor.co.uk (murdoch.servitor.co.uk [217.151.99.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F12643FCB for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 03:46:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@murdoch.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by murdoch.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 3.33 #3) id 195kQi-000DwG-00; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 11:46:16 +0100 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 11:46:16 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=EAr=EAciya_Kurdistan=EE?= Message-ID: <20030416114615.J41924@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3E9C6992.90403@potentialtech.com> <20030415235701.GA16666@kurdistan.ath.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20030415235701.GA16666@kurdistan.ath.cx>; from sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx on Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 04:57:01PM -0700 Sender: Paul cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:46:21 -0000 On Apr 16, Sêrêciya Kurdistanî wrote: > English may have originaly come from England, however, American English has > in many ways departed from the original. It also helps to remember that > English has many foreign words in it. Actually, if you go back to the 16th century and take a snapshot of English as it was spoken then, you'll find both American English and English English (OK, British English), have both moved on. I do not speak like Shakespeare despite living in modern England. It continues to diversify on a daily basis. British English is in fact a much larger and more dynamic form of the language than American English. The full version of the OED (http://www.oed.com/public/publications/) is some 20 volumes long, and I would reccomend you buy the additions series as well if you really want a handle on the language. Of course, for most every-day usage, the Compact/Concise OED is fine. Merriam-Webster is a fine resouce covering American English, but at just 476,000 entries it shows how limited American English is in comparison. This is not to state that American English is inferior - often a simpler solution is the best, as all of us FBSD-lovers will agree, but it should be noted that they are SIGNIFICANTLY different and not comparable outside of every-day usage. This discussion does not cover a word that is used on a daily basis, and the limitations of American dictionaries will indeed cause American Christians to believe that daemon is the same as demon. > That is precisely true. English, like most languages is not homogeneous. > Anyone who has had any schooling at all knows that English has many Greek, > Latin, German, French, and Arabic words among others. The basic stuff comes from there, but modern British English has Irdu, Bengali and Yiddish undertones to sections of the language because of the incredibly relaxed immigration rules we had here after WW2. The word "Madras" is now as common in British English usage as any other description of food. Incidentally your comment about "anyone who has had any schooling..." is telling. I would expect a five year old to be able to tell me that English has Latin and Greek roots, and by the age of eight I would expect them to be able to tell me why, and how Anglo-Saxon and French got mixed up in there. If they weren't able to do so, I'd reccomend to their parents that they should change schools. But then, these days, who knows what goes on in English schools.... is this not the case in American schools then? I suppose the Norman invasions aren't very interesting to Americans... > Right. They use an English word because they think that it has a more > suitable definition to the word if only they knew that the word does not > make as much sense as you might think. Most Europeans are adept English speakers. I can't speak for South Americans or Canadians. I'm joking about the Canadians. Kind of. :-) > Remember... there is also another matter: not all imported words are used > with the original definition. Sometimes we "think" that we understand a > word, and we end up using it in a similar context, but never the less > different. Examples? I can't think of any. I saw a French translation of "Emergency Exit" yesterday and was reminded that secours was the French for emergency, but of course the English "security" has it's roots here and in Latin... quite interesting... > Take the words "fare well" for example. English speaking folk commonly use > this to mean "good bye". It just happens to be French, and what it really > means is "do well"; not really having anything to do with travel or even > departure. Somebody else has debunked this. You were close, but not right... > Back to the Daemon/Demon issue... I honestly can *not* believe that in this > day and age that there are people acting as though they are still living > in the dark ages. They're not. Anyway, what makes you think that the dark ages were any worse than today? Fewer deaths and people were probably content with a lot less. I doubt that people in the dark ages worried about being lactose intolerant. Just because somebody is religious doesn't mean they were ignorant. Newton, Einstein, even BLOODY DARWIN were all Christians. Newton spent most of his life working on alchemy and bible codes - the whole gravity and light going through a prism thing was a distraction that happened to be useful. Don't discount somebody else because they think differently to you and you assume you are more "enlightened". To do so just makes you a bigot. > This is a real embarressment to any and all educated persons to have to hear > this kind of nonsense. I consider myself educated. I am not embarrased, save the fact that one person (you) seems to think yourself better than another member of the human race because you discount his belief system. That truly is embarassing - I thought people here were actually grown up and sensible. Evidently not. > Yes indeed. A group of very interesting characters who have far too much > time to analyse such small things. People's opinions matter, no matter what. The opinion is wrong, and does require clarification, but it still matters. Everybody opinion counts and should be dealt with. The majority however rule, and the majority do not want to get rid of the name or the logo of the FreeBSD project. > Apparently, common logic has not prevailed over them. Your logic hasn't prevailed over them, their logic hasn't prevailed over you. Try and understand a bit about the human mind, and you'll realise you are not, contrary to your own beliefs, special. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 04:08:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D60E37B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 04:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif2-5-cust38.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.101.150.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32BCD43F85 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 04:08:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.12) id 195kmP-000EzE-00; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:08:41 +0100 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:08:41 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: William Palfreman Message-ID: <20030416110841.GA57521@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , William Palfreman , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3E9C2965.5080504@potentialtech.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20030415203820.01dd56a8@popserver.sfu.ca> <200304151557.28415.jeff@walters.name> <20030416014930.G57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030416014930.G57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 11:08:54 -0000 On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 01:58:59AM +0100, William Palfreman wrote: > On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Jeff Walters wrote: > > > Yeah, but you guys (assuming you're from Britain) spell it colour and not > > color. What gives? :) > > Because that's how it's pronounced. English often has more distinctive > vowel sounds than American English. We say it like col'er, you people > say coll-or. Remember that for us, "Marry merry Mary" are three words > that actually sound different :-) Yeah, and don't get me started on "aluminium" ;) Ceri -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 04:55:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCAE737B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 04:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gvr.gvr.org (gvr.gvr.org [212.61.40.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5AF43FA3 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 04:55:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from guido@gvr.org) Received: by gvr.gvr.org (Postfix, from userid 657) id 4152841; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:55:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:55:56 +0200 From: Guido van Rooij To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030416115556.GA23101@gvr.gvr.org> References: <3E9C6992.90403@potentialtech.com> <20030415235701.GA16666@kurdistan.ath.cx> <20030416114615.J41924@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030416114615.J41924@iconoplex.co.uk> cc: =?iso-8859-15?Q?S=EAr=EAciya_Kurdistan=EE?= cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 11:56:00 -0000 On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 11:46:16AM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > > Remember... there is also another matter: not all imported words are used > > with the original definition. Sometimes we "think" that we understand a > > word, and we end up using it in a similar context, but never the less > > different. > > Examples? I can't think of any. I saw a French translation of "Emergency > Exit" yesterday and was reminded that secours was the French for emergency, > but of course the English "security" has it's roots here and in Latin... > quite interesting... An example would be Equus vs. Cavallus. The first is the latin word for horse, the second is the word used by soldiers for horses, a kind of slang. In france, the word for horse is cheval, which comes from Cavallus and not from equus. -Guido From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 08:07:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C97537B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gvr.gvr.org (gvr.gvr.org [212.61.40.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4A243FCB for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:07:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from guido@gvr.org) Received: by gvr.gvr.org (Postfix, from userid 657) id 6EF6843; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:07:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:07:00 +0200 From: Guido van Rooij To: Paul Robinson ,, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030416150700.GA25165@gvr.gvr.org> References: <3E9C6992.90403@potentialtech.com> <20030415235701.GA16666@kurdistan.ath.cx> <20030416114615.J41924@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030416115556.GA23101@gvr.gvr.org> <20030416121500.GA44969@fin-lebret.beauvais.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030416121500.GA44969@fin-lebret.beauvais.fr> Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:07:03 -0000 On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 02:15:00PM +0200, Arnaud Lebret wrote: > Maybe you can find the same kind of thing in American|British English if > you think of the difference between 'lamb' and 'mutton', for example. Do > you know which language this difference is coming from ? Mutton is problably imported from french (Mouton). Lamb is the same as we use in dutch, so it might be that the origin is germanic...but I'm not sure. -Guido From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 08:16:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0592C37B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kurdistan.ath.cx (adsl-64-169-155-173.dsl.chic01.pacbell.net [64.169.155.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1602243FB1 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:16:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx) Received: from kurdistan.ath.cx (ns1 [127.0.0.1]) by kurdistan.ath.cx (8.12.8/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h3GFGC04048602 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sereciya@kurdistan.ath.cx) Received: (from sereciya@localhost) by kurdistan.ath.cx (8.12.8/8.12.6/Submit) id h3GFGCOO048601 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:16:12 -0700 From: =?unknown-8bit?Q?S=EAr=EAciya_Kurdistan=EE?= To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030416151612.GA38364@kurdistan.ath.cx> References: <3E9C6992.90403@potentialtech.com> <20030415235701.GA16666@kurdistan.ath.cx> <20030416114615.J41924@iconoplex.co.uk> <20030416115556.GA23101@gvr.gvr.org> <20030416121500.GA44969@fin-lebret.beauvais.fr> <20030416150700.GA25165@gvr.gvr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20030416150700.GA25165@gvr.gvr.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:16:12 -0000 > Mutton is problably imported from french (Mouton). > Lamb is the same as we use in dutch, so it might be that the origin is > germanic...but I'm not sure. Who knew that there were so many linguisticly knowledgeable people here! We ought to start our own "freebsd-linguistics" mailing list ;) Check this out... The Kurdish verb "levandin" means "to move" ^^^ Ez dilevim // I move In French the verb "se laver" means "to wash"; you "move" your hands against ^^^ eachother (rub) them to wash Je me lave les mains // I wash my hands So something that can not "move" thus can not be alive. An important aspect of living is to be able to move ;) --$êrêciya Kurdistanî +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Welat xwe ava nake, dest bidin hevdu, pist nedin tu dijminî | | Riya azadiyê ne hêsan e, hêviya xwe bernedin, dema me | | nêzîk e. | | | | Hevaltî bi kesên du rû nekin, hevaltî bi hevdu ra bikin | | Ne ji hevaltiya wan kesên pêxwas û rû dirêj, ne bi wan | | kesên xwînperest, ne jî ji yên din. | | | | -$êrêciya Kurdistanî | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ translation provided on request: sereciya at kurdistan.ath.cx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 12:08:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87BA237B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B504443FB1 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:08:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <2003041619083700100bt782e>; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:08:37 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h3GJ9ssg090194; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:09:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h3GJ9dIm090189; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:09:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: William Palfreman References: <3E9C2965.5080504@potentialtech.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20030415203820.01dd56a8@popserver.sfu.ca> <200304151557.28415.jeff@walters.name> <20030416014930.G57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 16 Apr 2003 12:09:39 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20030416014930.G57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> Message-ID: Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:08:39 -0000 William Palfreman writes: > On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Jeff Walters wrote: > > > Yeah, but you guys (assuming you're from Britain) spell it colour and not > > color. What gives? :) > > Because that's how it's pronounced. English often has more distinctive > vowel sounds than American English. We say it like col'er, you people > say coll-or. Remember that for us, "Marry merry Mary" are three words > that actually sound different :-) So how do "marry" and "Mary" differ? Some Americans (with roots around Ohio, maybe) say "Mary" "May'-ree" (and my name "Gay'-ree" :-o ) and many say "marry" vs. "merry" (and "pin" vs. "pen") differently (though few people normally hear the difference and I suspect that few even know how they normally pronounce them). Please say something about the pronounciation of "Halley" of comet fame. The first 30 years of my life I always heard Hale'-eee, but then some arrogant-sounding folks came on the TV before the comet return telling everyone they should be saying Hal'-eee, based on what I don't know. I that how all of you British say it? Or in the dialect from Halley's home region, or his modern decendents? Or is it known how HE said it? I'm not sure any of that matters; nobody tries to tell us to pronounce "Paris" the way the French do (but maybe personal names are different). As for "color", I think that few Americans say coll-or or cull-or; your col'er looks about right, though I would write it cull'-er. Nobody there gets two sounds out of "ou", do they? I'm not sure how "o" and "ou" would effect a word differently, but either is OK by me. As for "aluminium", we prounounce that pretty-much the same way, but we prefer to use a different word for the metal, namely "aluminum". BTW, I'd gladly change from "or" to "our", as in "color/colour", if ya'll would change from "re" to "er", as in "metre/meter". From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 15:04:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA7A37B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103B643F93 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:04:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com ([12.234.22.23]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with SMTP id <2003041622041405300mt24ge>; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:04:14 +0000 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:04:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: CARTER Anthony In-Reply-To: <200304161124.59443.a.carter@intrasoft.lu> Message-ID: <20030416145925.G37135@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <200304161124.59443.a.carter@intrasoft.lu> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Luciano Evaristo Guerche cc: Bill Moran cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:04:16 -0000 [ Please respect Reply-to: chat, this is way off topic for the other lists. ] On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, CARTER Anthony wrote: > Not only that, but without the demon, their religion would be meaningless. The > whole point is equilibrium...Without it, there is no need for their faith > because all will be good (remember, God is all good, Devil all bad, in the > world)... Your understanding of christian theology is very, very wrong. God and Satan are not equals in the Bible, Satan is a created being who turned away from obedience to God and therefore is damned for all eternity. The idea of "equilibrium" is much more an eastern concept, not a christian one. Hope this helps, Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 16:20:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D31B737B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-150.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2805843FAF for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:20:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D099466CFA; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B82C31164; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:20:54 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Danny Sleator Message-ID: <20030416232054.GA72239@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <19735.1050509033@hyper.link.cs.cmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19735.1050509033@hyper.link.cs.cmu.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Apology X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:20:56 -0000 --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 12:03:53PM -0400, Danny Sleator wrote: > At the risk of offending people even more, I want to > apologize for sending an inappropriate political message to > this mailing list. I didn't realize that this address was > a mailing list. But you're not going to apologize for spamming personal mailboxes? Asshole. Kris --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+neVWWry0BWjoQKURArn1AKCKT4MVru3egKsxqNDhl7Jw+8aaCACg1Riu sqP0qHzhHnP49SKNZbLn2+E= =FIbl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 16:55:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F68D37B448 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1686343F93 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:55:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41])h3GNt5VS006255; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:55:05 +1000 (EST) From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:55:05 +1000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <200304161124.59443.a.carter@intrasoft.lu> In-Reply-To: <200304161124.59443.a.carter@intrasoft.lu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304170955.05600.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> cc: Luciano Evaristo Guerche cc: Bill Moran cc: CARTER Anthony Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:55:20 -0000 Hey, (: Think its time to add my 2c On Wed, 16 Apr 2003 07:24 pm, CARTER Anthony wrote: > The only reason that religion was made was to explain to > people why bad things happened to them... Well actually in terms of Christianity, its existance is more due to the fact a man came, claimed to be God, and rose from the dead. People would not have stood up to the authorities throught the ages for someone who came, taught good stuff, then died... anyway religious discussion aside... > Also, just because the image is a demon, it does not mean that we propogate > evil desires or information in favour of evil things. Hey, why not > stick a halo over the demons head?That will negate his negative > vibes... It's ironic that it would be Christians who complain about the logo, biblically speaking, there is no such thing as a 'demon'. The bible talks about Angels, fallen angels (of which satan is one). The image of a 'devel', the image which cartoons tend to use to represent satan, is the typical red horned beast, which is actually from greek/hellanistic mythology. If your a Christian, its not red horned beings with forks which you should be worrying about... Regards, Jacob Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 17:20:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15D037B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0313F43FDD for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:20:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD1AEFD90; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with SMTP id D9EFDA913; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:20:24 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim To: JacobRhoden Message-Id: <20030416172024.32269a38.dmp@pantherdragon.org> In-Reply-To: <200304170955.05600.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <200304161124.59443.a.carter@intrasoft.lu> <200304170955.05600.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: guercheLE@hotmail.com cc: a.carter@cordis.lu cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: wmoran@potentialtech.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:20:41 -0000 JacobRhoden wrote: >Hey, (: > >Think its time to add my 2c > >On Wed, 16 Apr 2003 07:24 pm, CARTER Anthony wrote: >> The only reason that religion was made was to explain to >> people why bad things happened to them... > >Well actually in terms of Christianity, its existance is more due to the fact >a man came, claimed to be God, and rose from the dead. People would not have >stood up to the authorities throught the ages for someone who came, taught >good stuff, then died... anyway religious discussion aside... And nobody is going to spend $150 on a pair of athletic shoes unless the would be consumer is convinced it will help their game or will at least make them cool. >From a cynical standpoint, miracles, Christ's rising from the dead, the burning bush, etc., are the religious equivalent of marketing strategies. In a age of ignorance and utter lack of general scientific understanding, what we would view as the most basic of natural occurances wouldn't be understood, and the religious leaders could easily play upon the populous' ignorance and build it into a sign from God. We can sit here for hours and pick apart everything, discuss wood fragments found in the mountains, caves with odd markings, strange magnetic fields, and get nothing accomplished. But that's not because it doesn't exist and stuff didn't happen, it's because you're trying to convince an audience of non-believers. The scientific method breaks down when analyzing a non-science. Planks found in some mountain are only going to be fragments of Noah's Ark to those who don't need more convincing. What it ultimately comes down to is psychology. There's a very well established phenomenon called psychogenesis, where in a physical effect is manifested as the result of the human mind convincing itself of its existance. In a nutshell, that's what faith is. If you believe God is real, then he is real. Just don't expect the person next to on the bus to agree with you. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 17:23:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3046537B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E6A43F93 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:23:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41])h3H0NTVS008719 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:23:29 +1000 (EST) From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:23:28 +1000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary="Boundary-00=_AQfn+9TSmTyXAKa" Message-Id: <200304171023.28921.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Subject: Fwd: Re: about new email service. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:23:31 -0000 --Boundary-00=_AQfn+9TSmTyXAKa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline i dont know wether to laugh or cry, free email service that itself spams, i wonder if its own spam filters would block its mail from itself *grin* incidentally while im on the subject, did you know down here in australia, they are finally starting to make some laws against spam. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: about new email service. Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:29 pm From: Filming To: Freebsd-doc We are glad to invite you at new free mail service: [1]www.mail15.com 6) antivirus and antispam control; Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 --Boundary-00=_AQfn+9TSmTyXAKa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; name=" " Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ freebsd-doc@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-doc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-doc-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" --Boundary-00=_AQfn+9TSmTyXAKa-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 17:27:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1397537B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F227F43FA3 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:27:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41])h3H0RiVS009034; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:27:44 +1000 (EST) From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: Darren Pilgrim , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:27:44 +1000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <200304170955.05600.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030416172024.32269a38.dmp@pantherdragon.org> In-Reply-To: <20030416172024.32269a38.dmp@pantherdragon.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304171027.44003.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:27:46 -0000 On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:20 am, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > We can sit here for hours and pick apart everything, discuss wood fragments > found in the mountains, caves with odd markings, strange magnetic fields, > and get nothing accomplished. But that's not because it doesn't exist and > stuff Since you went there... For me, its not that complicated, Jesus was killed by the Roman guards, then heaps of people saw him alive.... Either the romans did a bad job at killing him (unlikely) or he did raise from the dead. You could perhaps argue maybe they got someone who looked like him to trick people, but again I think unlikely, I dont think people 2000 years ago were as stupid as you paint them out to be. (: - jacob Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 18:10:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577AE37B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fep2.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6737243F93 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pnmurphy@cogeco.ca) Received: from earth.upton.net (d141-18-230.home.cgocable.net [24.141.18.230]) by fep2.cogeco.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 80CC17FD6; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 21:10:54 -0400 From: Paul Murphy To: JacobRhoden Message-Id: <20030416211054.0b7ea2e4.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> In-Reply-To: <200304171027.44003.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <200304170955.05600.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030416172024.32269a38.dmp@pantherdragon.org> <200304171027.44003.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.DEOUpGevEp)Y4S" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:10:56 -0000 --=.DEOUpGevEp)Y4S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:27:44 +1000 JacobRhoden wrote: > On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:20 am, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > We can sit here for hours and pick apart everything, discuss wood > > fragments found in the mountains, caves with odd markings, strange > > magnetic fields, and get nothing accomplished. But that's not > > because it doesn't exist and stuff > > Since you went there... > > For me, its not that complicated, Jesus was killed by the Roman > guards, then heaps of people saw him alive.... Either the romans did a > bad job at killing him (unlikely) or he did raise from the dead. > > You could perhaps argue maybe they got someone who looked like him to > trick people, but again I think unlikely, I dont think people 2000 > years ago were as stupid as you paint them out to be. (: > Of course, it could be just a story...written along time ago..in an old book. -- Cogeco ergo sum --=.DEOUpGevEp)Y4S Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+nf8eTv5Mxsi/WPMRAvphAJwLRUODlFQ1yzCfj35Gl8/U9lgAGgCglInl QNHocIxHicVAzzZ9mgDg36g= =RXJ0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.DEOUpGevEp)Y4S-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 19:25:33 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4729E37B40E for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B9044013 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:25:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41])h3H2PHVS018415; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:25:18 +1000 (EST) From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: Paul Murphy Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:25:17 +1000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <200304171027.44003.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030416211054.0b7ea2e4.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> In-Reply-To: <20030416211054.0b7ea2e4.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304171225.17766.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 02:25:33 -0000 On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:10 am, Paul Murphy wrote: > > You could perhaps argue maybe they got someone who looked like him to > > trick people, but again I think unlikely, I dont think people 2000 > > years ago were as stupid as you paint them out to be. (: > Of course, it could be just a story...written along time ago..in an old > book. Are you really going to suggest that you think that there are millions of Christians world wide, on the basis of a made up story? Surely you are not going to suggest that Jesus and the apostles are fictional characters? I wonder if people will say the same thing about Hitler in 2000 years time? Especially when you consider it will be written down and there will be a lage group of people (Jews) as a testimony to the fact. How do you decide which 'historical accounts' backed up by a 'culture' of people are fact, and which are fiction? Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 19:55:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B7937B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes16-hme0.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76AA543F93 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:55:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([207.6.229.118]) by priv-edtnes16-hme0.telusplanet.netESMTP <20030417025546.CKUA15908.priv-edtnes16-hme0.telusplanet.net@[192.168.1.100]>; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:55:46 -0600 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:55:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net To: Guido van Rooij In-Reply-To: <20030416115556.GA23101@gvr.gvr.org> Message-ID: <20030416194824.M36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: =?iso-8859-15?Q?S=EAr=EAciya_Kurdistan=EE?= Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 02:55:48 -0000 On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Guido van Rooij wrote: > An example would be Equus vs. Cavallus. The first is the latin word for horse, > the second is the word used by soldiers for horses, a kind of slang. > In france, the word for horse is cheval, which comes from Cavallus and not > from equus. > > -Guido Don't forget Dutch paard/German Pferd, both derived from a third Latin term "para veredus", from the days when common people had little experience with horses other than seeing those used by the king's messenger service. Cheers, Viktor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 19:58:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32DE37B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-150.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0868743F75 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF0966CFA; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 89E29FCC; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:58:34 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: JacobRhoden Message-ID: <20030417025834.GA73369@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <200304170955.05600.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030416172024.32269a38.dmp@pantherdragon.org> <200304171027.44003.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200304171027.44003.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 02:58:36 -0000 --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 10:27:44AM +1000, JacobRhoden wrote: > Since you went there... >=20 > For me, its not that complicated, Jesus was killed by the Roman guards, t= hen=20 > heaps of people saw him alive.... Either the romans did a bad job at kill= ing=20 > him (unlikely) or he did raise from the dead. Accepting the above, we can also conclude that either Elvis faked his death by drug overdose ("unlikely") or he also raised from the dead. > You could perhaps argue maybe they got someone who looked like him to tri= ck=20 > people, but again I think unlikely, I dont think people 2000 years ago we= re=20 > as stupid as you paint them out to be. (: People today certainly are, so what evidence do you have to suggest they were any better 2000 years ago? Kris --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+nhhaWry0BWjoQKURApd3AJ9C9ejh5PPS0oNhvtFBp7CiI0PUDgCgnTR7 wn4ZJIWBzTuXZ1XiClkQM2I= =zA8c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 20:22:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7490B37B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from net.wau.nl (NET.WAU.NL [137.224.10.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED5743FE0 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:22:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from FST777@phreaker.net) Received: from asser079.athome239.wau.nl (asser079.athome239.wau.nl [137.224.239.79]) by net.WAU.NL (PMDF V5.2-32 #38746) with ESMTP id <0HDG005M8XD2J2@net.WAU.NL> for chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 05:22:14 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 05:23:54 +0107 (CEST) From: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" To: chat@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <0HDG005M9XD2J2@net.WAU.NL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Spruce 0.6.5 for X11 w/smtpio 0.7.9 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: FST777@phreaker.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 03:22:17 -0000 being a christian I like to add: what the hell has this to do with FreeBSD? On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:58:34 -0700 > To: JacobRhoden > From: Kris Kennaway > Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.org > Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... > > On Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 10:27:44AM +1000, JacobRhoden wrote: > > > Since you went there... > > > > For me, its not that complicated, Jesus was killed by the Roman guards, > then > > heaps of people saw him alive.... Either the romans did a bad job at > killing > > him (unlikely) or he did raise from the dead. > > Accepting the above, we can also conclude that either Elvis faked his > death by drug overdose ("unlikely") or he also raised from the dead. > > > You could perhaps argue maybe they got someone who looked like him to > trick > > people, but again I think unlikely, I dont think people 2000 years ago > were > > as stupid as you paint them out to be. (: > > People today certainly are, so what evidence do you have to suggest > they were any better 2000 years ago? > > Kris > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 20:22:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D7B37B404 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E6443FE1 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:22:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0039.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.39] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 195zyZ-0007ld-00; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:22:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9E16E5.635A2E67@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:52:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <20030416145925.G37135@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a48534a8a8ca45d2576ecae01a85a1c4c3548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Luciano Evaristo Guerche cc: Bill Moran cc: CARTER Anthony Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 03:22:17 -0000 Doug Barton wrote: > Your understanding of christian theology is very, very wrong. God and > Satan are not equals in the Bible, Satan is a created being who turned > away from obedience to God and therefore is damned for all eternity. Actually in Job, Satan's more like God's "Attorney General". -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 20:23:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C0C37B404 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DAE043FCB for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:23:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0039.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.39] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 195zzK-00005L-00; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:23:03 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9E1DBD.A5443B39@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:21:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <20030416145925.G37135@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a48534a8a8ca45d2572e980f08ff902da5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Luciano Evaristo Guerche cc: Bill Moran cc: CARTER Anthony Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 03:23:05 -0000 Doug Barton wrote: > Your understanding of christian theology is very, very wrong. God and > Satan are not equals in the Bible, Satan is a created being who turned > away from obedience to God and therefore is damned for all eternity. Actually in Job, Satan's more like God's "Attorney General". -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 20:47:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B485F37B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3B843F85 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:47:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41])h3H3l8VS024976; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:47:08 +1000 (EST) From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: FST777@phreaker.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:47:08 +1000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <0HDG005M9XD2J2@net.WAU.NL> In-Reply-To: <0HDG005M9XD2J2@net.WAU.NL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200304171347.08548.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 03:47:15 -0000 On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 02:16 pm, Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek wrote: > what the hell has this to do with FreeBSD? I think someone thinks that the FreeBSD logo has something to do with satan... On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Accepting the above, we can also conclude that either Elvis faked his > death by drug overdose ("unlikely") or he also raised from the dead. Show me books that documenting Elvis being alive after he died . . . Show me a history of all witnesses who claim to have seen Elvis, being murdered for many years by the government just for the 'entertainment of the people', and see how many people still stand up and admit they have seen Elvis, and are willing to die for that cause. . . Then I might believe Elvis is alive. (: - jacob Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 23:07:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB28537B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37D543FAF for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:07:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.gorean.org (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23]) by sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03) with SMTP id <2003041706075300300bukt2e>; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 06:07:54 +0000 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:07:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: <3E9E1DBD.A5443B39@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030416225100.A12786@znfgre.tberna.bet> References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <3E9E1DBD.A5443B39@mindspring.com> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Luciano Evaristo Guerche cc: CARTER Anthony cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 06:07:56 -0000 On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > Doug Barton wrote: > > Your understanding of christian theology is very, very wrong. God and > > Satan are not equals in the Bible, Satan is a created being who turned > > away from obedience to God and therefore is damned for all eternity. > > Actually in Job, Satan's more like God's "Attorney General". That's an interesting way to phrase that. I picked the word "Satan" particularly as opposed to "Devil" to try and move away from the demon issue. The origin of the word we usually pronounce SAY-tin in english is the hebrew word usually pronounced sah-TAHN, which is generally defined as "accuser." Jews don't believe in a "devil" the same way most christians do, but they also don't believe in Satan as an equal to God. In fact, the early christians pretty much adopted the jewish idea of sah-tahn as a created, and fallen being; and embellished it a bit. Getting back to Job, sah-tahn isn't so much in god's employ as he is bringing suit in his own defense. His argument more or less boils down to, "See God? I'm not the only one of your creations that's likely to crack. Take that fellow Job. He CLAIMS that he loves you, but that's just because he has had such an easy life. Make things tough on him, and he'll curse your name just like I did." It's actually one of the more interesting stories in the old testament, mostly because it was written specifically to be an interesting story (or fable, which is a story with a moral, to borrow a greek term from a later era). Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 23:26:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6D737B401; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes62.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB9643FDF; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:26:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([207.6.229.118]) by priv-edtnes62.telusplanet.netESMTP <20030417062624.SHPJ15875.priv-edtnes62.telusplanet.net@[192.168.1.100]>; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:26:24 -0600 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:26:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <20030416225100.A12786@znfgre.tberna.bet> Message-ID: <20030416231711.F36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Luciano Evaristo Guerche cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran cc: CARTER Anthony Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 06:26:26 -0000 On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Doug Barton wrote: > On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Doug Barton wrote: > > > Your understanding of christian theology is very, very wrong. God and > > > Satan are not equals in the Bible, Satan is a created being who turned > > > away from obedience to God and therefore is damned for all eternity. > > > > Actually in Job, Satan's more like God's "Attorney General". > > That's an interesting way to phrase that. I picked the word "Satan" > particularly as opposed to "Devil" to try and move away from the demon > issue. The origin of the word we usually pronounce SAY-tin in english is > the hebrew word usually pronounced sah-TAHN, which is generally defined as > "accuser." Jews don't believe in a "devil" the same way most christians > do, but they also don't believe in Satan as an equal to God. In fact, the > early christians pretty much adopted the jewish idea of sah-tahn as a > created, and fallen being; and embellished it a bit. > Actually it's devil < Latin diabolus < Greek diabolos that means accuser, from Greek dia "across/through" and ballein "to throw". Hebrew satan (with two long a's) means "the enemy, adversary" from the verbal root satan (with only the first a long) meaning "to oppose, plot against, persecute" Cheers, Viktor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 16 23:36:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E4EB37B401 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-150.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D9443FBD for ; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:36:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345CC66CFA; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0DC40FCC; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:36:02 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: JacobRhoden Message-ID: <20030417063601.GA74196@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <0HDG005M9XD2J2@net.WAU.NL> <200304171347.08548.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="opJtzjQTFsWo+cga" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200304171347.08548.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 06:36:04 -0000 --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 01:47:08PM +1000, JacobRhoden wrote: > On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 02:16 pm, Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek wrote: > > what the hell has this to do with FreeBSD? >=20 > I think someone thinks that the FreeBSD logo has something to do with sat= an... >=20 > On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > Accepting the above, we can also conclude that either Elvis faked his > > death by drug overdose ("unlikely") or he also raised from the dead. >=20 > Show me books that documenting Elvis being alive after he died . . . You can pick up many of them on the checkout stand of your local supermarket ;-) > Show me a history of all witnesses who claim to have seen Elvis, being=20 > murdered for many years by the government just for the 'entertainment of = the=20 > people', and see how many people still stand up and admit they have seen= =20 > Elvis, and are willing to die for that cause. . . The US is not a particularly repressive society, but there are any number of other cases throughout history where belief in a messiah figure has been brutally suppressed by a governing power (in fact repressive societies may encourage martyrdom and the romantic image that projects). Most have fallen by the wayside of history and have been forgotten, but most of the major religions alive today (e.g. Islam, to pick an obvious example) fall into this category. Are they all true simply by virtue of having taken root despite persecution? > Then I might believe Elvis is alive. (: So your criterion for belief is that a group of other people believe strongly enough in the same thing to die for the cause? Let's think about some other things that people have believed in despite persecution: - Most other religions. - Many political ideologies (communism, fascism, ...) - Resistance fighters against an occupying power (America vs England, France vs Germany, Israel vs England, Palestine vs Israel, Afghanistan vs USSR, ...) - Civil rights for ethnic minorities - ... In some of these examples one can formulate independent, rational arguments for supporting the cause, but herd mentality is surely not a good criterion for deciding whether something is true or even whether it is worth believing in. Think for yourself. Kris --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+nktRWry0BWjoQKURAqkMAKDsAfEireGsyUdnjCKe/4IK21pCNgCeMP0e GlcCDIWPIKO7GKdVCXx8Saw= =cw+N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 17 00:12:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A0837B401; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4BD43F3F; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:12:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0126.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.126] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1963Ys-0005i7-00; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:11:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9E536D.2D90D495@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:10:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <3E9E1DBD.A5443B39@mindspring.com> <20030416225100.A12786@znfgre.tberna.bet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a416c560a3f2482d2f9b718dab84d3d8eb667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Luciano Evaristo Guerche cc: CARTER Anthony cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 07:12:03 -0000 Doug Barton wrote: > > Actually in Job, Satan's more like God's "Attorney General". > > Getting back to Job, sah-tahn isn't so much in god's employ as he is > bringing suit in his own defense. His argument more or less boils down to, > "See God? I'm not the only one of your creations that's likely to crack. > Take that fellow Job. He CLAIMS that he loves you, but that's just because > he has had such an easy life. Make things tough on him, and he'll curse > your name just like I did." It's actually one of the more interesting > stories in the old testament, mostly because it was written specifically > to be an interesting story (or fable, which is a story with a moral, to > borrow a greek term from a later era). So, basically, Job's been charged, and he's put on trial over the charges, then acquitted. Sounds like God's "Attorney General" to me... -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 17 00:42:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234DB37B401 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6283543F3F for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:42:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.gorean.org (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with SMTP id <2003041707425300100bsqj6e>; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 07:42:54 +0000 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:42:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: <3E9E536D.2D90D495@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030417004019.T601@znfgre.tberna.bet> References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <3E9E1DBD.A5443B39@mindspring.com><3E9E536D.2D90D495@mindspring.com> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Luciano Evaristo Guerche cc: CARTER Anthony cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 07:42:56 -0000 On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > So, basically, Job's been charged, and he's put on trial over > the charges, then acquitted. Sounds like God's "Attorney General" > to me... Maybe I'm being too literal, but "The President's Attorney General" is appointed by the president, to do the president's bidding. In Job, Satan is acting on his own behalf, with the same kind of "lawsuit" that you'd hear on an elementary school playground. :) "Yeah, I'm bad, but HE is worse." -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 17 01:01:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDE437B401 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E12EE43FAF for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:01:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.gorean.org (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with SMTP id <2003041708011900100bt1lce>; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 08:01:20 +0000 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:01:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Viktor Lazlo In-Reply-To: <20030416231711.F36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> Message-ID: <20030417004308.K601@znfgre.tberna.bet> References: <20030416231711.F36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Luciano Evaristo Guerche cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran cc: CARTER Anthony Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 08:01:21 -0000 On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Viktor Lazlo wrote: > Actually it's devil < Latin diabolus < Greek diabolos that means accuser, > from Greek dia "across/through" and ballein "to throw". Well, I agree with this bit... > Hebrew satan (with two long a's) Both of my Hebrew professors would disagree with you, but that's ok, because since the old testament texts were copied without vowels, it's open to debate. :) > means "the enemy, adversary" from the verbal root satan (with only the > first a long) meaning "to oppose, plot against, persecute" True, that's the root meaning of the word, but both of my Hebrew dictionaries, as well as all of my theological instruction include "accuser" as the most commonly used connotation in the Old Testament. After all, someone who brings accusations against you is generally your enemy, or at least an adversary. Also, the noun form of the word is defined simply as "accusation," and the Septuagint translation of the word in the relevant passages is "hah diabolos," so I think we're closer to agreeing on this than you might realize. In several verses of the New Testament, the authors simply transliterated the hebrew word as a proper name (Satanas) which is where the english word "Satan" as a proper name is derived. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 17 01:07:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580C737B401; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADBDD43F85; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:07:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0126.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.126] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1964QQ-0000F1-00; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:07:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9E6065.20D2C608@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:05:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <3E9E1DBD.A5443B39@mindspring.com><3E9E536D.2D90D495@mindspring.com> <20030417004019.T601@znfgre.tberna.bet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43b9fa94aadf2419706ee9bdd662c0898350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Luciano Evaristo Guerche cc: CARTER Anthony cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 08:07:20 -0000 Doug Barton wrote: > On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > > So, basically, Job's been charged, and he's put on trial over > > the charges, then acquitted. Sounds like God's "Attorney General" > > to me... > > Maybe I'm being too literal, but "The President's Attorney General" is > appointed by the president, to do the president's bidding. In Job, Satan > is acting on his own behalf, with the same kind of "lawsuit" that you'd > hear on an elementary school playground. :) "Yeah, I'm bad, but HE is > worse." Actually, that's not quite a correct interpretation; Job 1:8-12 specifically states that involving Job was God's idea, and he specifically deputizes Satan to act on his behalf (Job 1:12), to prove the rightiousness of his servant. In Job 1:16, he even lets Satan use "The fire of God", as his proxy (and again, in 2:6-7, with the Smiting, and all... goes on for a good 39 more chapters). So basically, the President lent Janet Reno BATF troops in order to test how American a taxpayer was, after swearing out an executive order making it all nice and legal... and there was a heck of a lot of collateral damage as a result. But that's OK, because the main suspect survived the arrest process in order to stand trial, remarried, and lived happily ever after. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 17 06:48:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7064637B405 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 06:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from net.wau.nl (NET.WAU.nl [137.224.10.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA19D43FB1 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 06:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from FST777@phreaker.net) Received: from asser079.athome239.wau.nl (asser079.athome239.wau.nl [137.224.239.79]) by net.WAU.NL (PMDF V5.2-32 #38746) with ESMTP id <0HDH00I6MQCXB4@net.WAU.NL> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:48:33 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:50:16 +0107 (CEST) From: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <0HDH00I6NQCXB4@net.WAU.NL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Spruce 0.6.5 for X11 w/smtpio 0.7.9 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: FST777@phreaker.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:48:35 -0000 On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, JacobRhoden wrote: > Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:47:08 +1000 > To: FST777@phreaker.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > From: JacobRhoden > Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... > > On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 02:16 pm, Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek wrote: > > what the hell has this to do with FreeBSD? > > I think someone thinks that the FreeBSD logo has something to do with satan... I cought that :) but isn't this discussion a little bit out of hand? I'm a christian, and I like to debate... but at the right place and the right time... I think that what is now happening with this topic is that a lot of members from this list who are not interested in this topic are forced to download several bytes of not-wanted information. A lot of these people pay per byte. I don't really bother, but I can imagine that people who have decided to chat about FreeBSD-related stuff to integrate in the BSD-community won't like this. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 17 10:35:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8DF37B40F for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntli.com (pc1-glfd2-4-cust59.glfd.cable.ntl.com [81.99.187.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1824643FF5 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:35:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from aqua.lan.palfreman.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntli.com (8.12.3p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h3HHgQuG030890; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:42:26 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from localhost (william@localhost)h3HHgH9L030887; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:42:26 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: aqua.lan.palfreman.com: william owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:42:17 +0100 (BST) From: William Palfreman To: JacobRhoden In-Reply-To: <200304171225.17766.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <20030417183401.E57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <20030416211054.0b7ea2e4.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> <200304171225.17766.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Paul Murphy cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:35:39 -0000 On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, JacobRhoden wrote: > Are you really going to suggest that you think that there are millions of > Christians world wide, on the basis of a made up story? Surely you are not > going to suggest that Jesus and the apostles are fictional characters? I > wonder if people will say the same thing about Hitler in 2000 years time? > Especially when you consider it will be written down and there will be a lage > group of people (Jews) as a testimony to the fact. How do you decide which > 'historical accounts' backed up by a 'culture' of people are fact, and which > are fiction? http://catb.org/jargon/html/entry/Godwin's-Law.html Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. That's you. End Of Thread. Such an accurate theory. -- W. Palfreman. I'm looking for a job. Read my CV at: Tel: 0771 355 0354 www.palfreman.com/william/cv-wfp2.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 17 10:59:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50B6137B401 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntli.com (pc1-glfd2-4-cust59.glfd.cable.ntl.com [81.99.187.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D7843FB1 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:59:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from aqua.lan.palfreman.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntli.com (8.12.3p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h3HI6CuG030982; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:06:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from localhost (william@localhost)h3HI6BBS030979; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:06:12 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: aqua.lan.palfreman.com: william owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:06:11 +0100 (BST) From: William Palfreman To: Viktor Lazlo In-Reply-To: <20030416194824.M36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> Message-ID: <20030417184317.F57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> References: <20030416194824.M36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: =?iso-8859-15?Q?S=EAr=EAciya_Kurdistan=EE?= cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:59:17 -0000 On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Viktor Lazlo wrote: > Don't forget Dutch paard/German Pferd, both derived from a third Latin > term "para veredus", That is the origin of my surname. >From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]: Palfrey \Pal"frey\, n. [OE. palefrai, OF. palefrei, F. palefroi, LL. palafredus, parafredus, from L. paraveredus a horse for extraordinary occasions, an extra post horse; Gr. ? along, beside + L. veredus a post horse.] In fact it is a type of Celtic post horse used by the Romans in Gaul and Britain. Not an agricultural or domestic horse, but a semi-military one that was not a charger or a battlefield one. > from the days when common people had little > experience with horses other than seeing those used by the king's > messenger service. Yeah!!! 2000 years of network communication protocols! Regards, Bill. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 17 14:14:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0462737B401 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fep7.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F43A43FA3 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:14:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pnmurphy@cogeco.ca) Received: from earth.upton.net (d141-18-230.home.cgocable.net [24.141.18.230]) by fep7.cogeco.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FDB269A; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:14:46 -0400 From: Paul Murphy To: William Palfreman Message-Id: <20030417171446.18135522.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> In-Reply-To: <20030417183401.E57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <200304171027.44003.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030416211054.0b7ea2e4.pnmurphy@cogeco.ca> <200304171225.17766.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030417183401.E57044@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="=.Z5OrAA7Gp)rDH+" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:14:58 -0000 --=.Z5OrAA7Gp)rDH+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:42:17 +0100 (BST) William Palfreman wrote: > On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, JacobRhoden wrote: > > > Are you really going to suggest that you think that there are > > millions of Christians world wide, on the basis of a made up story? > > Surely you are not going to suggest that Jesus and the apostles are > > fictional characters? I wonder if people will say the same thing > > about Hitler in 2000 years time? Especially when you consider it > > will be written down and there will be a lage group of people (Jews) > > as a testimony to the fact. How do you decide which'historical > > accounts' backed up by a 'culture' of people are fact, and which are > > fiction? > > http://catb.org/jargon/html/entry/Godwin's-Law.html > > Godwin's Law prov. > [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a > comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a > tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is > over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost > whatever argument was in progress. > > > That's you. End Of Thread. Such an accurate theory. > Hallelujah ! -- Cogeco ergo sum --=.Z5OrAA7Gp)rDH+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+nxlOTv5Mxsi/WPMRAqMmAJ9C46QFr54HAsSddEQYv8gNSMUNrQCaA14m ftIzuGMEX3cHmMNgBi4duMY= =o/zV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.Z5OrAA7Gp)rDH+-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 17 14:17:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA77637B404; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thalia.otenet.gr (thalia.otenet.gr [195.170.0.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E926243FB1; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b154.otenet.gr [212.205.244.162]) by thalia.otenet.gr (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h3HLHOJV017157; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:17:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h3HLHNo0017207; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:17:23 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h3HLFRc3017183; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:15:27 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 00:15:27 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Doug Barton Message-ID: <20030417211527.GD16675@gothmog.gr> References: <20030416104202.7271aed3.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <20030417004019.T601@znfgre.tberna.bet> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030417004019.T601@znfgre.tberna.bet> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:17:36 -0000 On 2003-04-17 00:42, Doug Barton wrote: >On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >> So, basically, Job's been charged, and he's put on trial over >> the charges, then acquitted. Sounds like God's "Attorney General" >> to me... > > Maybe I'm being too literal, but "The President's Attorney General" is > appointed by the president, to do the president's bidding. In Job, Satan > is acting on his own behalf, with the same kind of "lawsuit" that you'd > hear on an elementary school playground. :) "Yeah, I'm bad, but HE is > worse." If you accept the fact that Satan is a creation of God, a lesser being, an entity spiritual, disembodied and supernatural, and the fact that God is all-knowing, both for future and past, has planned it all right from the start up to the final day of the judgement, then it's logical to say that Satan can not and has never done *anything* that God hasn't foreseen and carefully planned all along. Then, Satan, in a way, only does the president's bidding and always helps the advancement of God's One True Plan for all beings and the Creation. Now, if you don't accept and hold the original axioms as true, then this is an entirely different thing, which I'm neither fit to discuss or very interested to waste everyone's bandwidth about either. - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 17 19:54:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7018C37B401 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71C3B43FDD for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:54:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h3I2sqUE082271; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 05:54:52 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)h3I2spV8082268; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 05:54:51 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 05:54:51 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Viktor Lazlo In-Reply-To: <20030416194824.M36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> Message-ID: <20030418055331.P75698-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:54:55 -0000 On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Viktor Lazlo wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Guido van Rooij wrote: > > > An example would be Equus vs. Cavallus. The first is the latin word for horse, > > the second is the word used by soldiers for horses, a kind of slang. > > In france, the word for horse is cheval, which comes from Cavallus and not > > from equus. > > > > -Guido > > Don't forget Dutch paard/German Pferd, both derived from a third Latin > term "para veredus", from the days when common people had little > experience with horses other than seeing those used by the king's > messenger service. > uhh... it appears far more likely that they just derive from a common root than that this is in some way related to latin, esp as these common people wouldn't have known it (amnd its largely the words that they used that are in common circulation) > Cheers, > > Viktor > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 17 20:55:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C845937B401 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes62.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F87C43FDD for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:55:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([207.6.229.118]) by priv-edtnes62.telusplanet.netESMTP <20030418035520.QIPY15875.priv-edtnes62.telusplanet.net@[192.168.1.100]>; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:55:20 -0600 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:55:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net To: Narvi In-Reply-To: <20030418055331.P75698-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Message-ID: <20030417204943.I36781-100000@a3ij25fvy80j.bc.hsia.telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 03:55:22 -0000 > > Don't forget Dutch paard/German Pferd, both derived from a third Latin > > term "para veredus", from the days when common people had little > > experience with horses other than seeing those used by the king's > > messenger service. > > > > uhh... it appears far more likely that they just derive from a common root > than that this is in some way related to latin, esp as these common people > wouldn't have known it (amnd its largely the words that they used that are > in common circulation) Check any etymological dictionary for palfrey/paard/Pferd ;) What makes you think that common people would have been unfamiliar with the king's couriers, when they would have had to scurry out of the way every time they heard them coming down the road? Cheers, Viktor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 18 23:58:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 82A0F37B401; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:58:19 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" Message-ID: <20030418235819.A14375@FreeBSD.org> References: <0HDH00I6NQCXB4@net.WAU.NL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <0HDH00I6NQCXB4@net.WAU.NL>; from FST777@phreaker.net on Thu, Apr 17, 2003 at 03:50:16PM +0107 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 06:58:19 -0000 > I cought that :) but isn't this discussion a little bit out of hand? > I'm a christian, and I like to debate... but at the right place and the > right time... I think that what is now happening with this topic is that a > lot of members from this list who are not interested in this topic are > forced to download several bytes of not-wanted information. A lot of these > people pay per byte. These people most likely do not subscribe to the chat mailing list, or if they do they consider these conversations to be worth their money. The fact that any topic is fair game for this list is pretty well documented. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 18 23:59:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DB0737B401 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658A443FA3 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:59:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.gorean.org (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with SMTP id <200304190659290020025hohe>; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 06:59:30 +0000 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:59:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" In-Reply-To: <0HDH00I6NQCXB4@net.WAU.NL> Message-ID: <20030418235900.A9888@znfgre.tberna.bet> References: <0HDH00I6NQCXB4@net.WAU.NL> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 06:59:33 -0000 > I don't really bother, but I can imagine that people who have decided to > chat about FreeBSD-related stuff to integrate in the BSD-community won't > like this. By long tradition, "Nothing is off-topic for freebsd-chat." -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 19 19:55:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A0D937B401 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 19:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from net.wau.nl (net.wau.nl [137.224.10.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F95E43FDD for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 19:55:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from FST777@phreaker.net) Received: from asser079.athome239.wau.nl (asser079.athome239.wau.nl [137.224.239.79]) by net.WAU.NL (PMDF V5.2-32 #38746) with ESMTP id <0HDM00GMRG4YSY@net.WAU.NL> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 20 Apr 2003 04:55:46 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 04:57:45 +0107 (CEST) From: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <0HDM00GMSG4YSY@net.WAU.NL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Spruce 0.6.5 for X11 w/smtpio 0.7.9 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: FST777@phreaker.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 02:55:49 -0000 no offense to anyone, I meant it more or less as a question :) I'm subscribed to newbies and to chat, on newbies I saw this kind of topics being killed :) I think that is what raised my questions, so I guess I'll have to have in mind wich topic I'm signaling to ;) On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Doug Barton wrote: > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:59:28 -0700 (PDT) > To: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" > From: Doug Barton > Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo... > > > I don't really bother, but I can imagine that people who have decided > to > > chat about FreeBSD-related stuff to integrate in the BSD-community > won't > > like this. > > By long tradition, "Nothing is off-topic for freebsd-chat." > > -- > > This .signature sanitized for your protection