From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 7 08:44:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A7937B401 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carebears.mine.nu (ti400720a080-1382.bb.online.no [80.212.165.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF6543F75 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:44:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chgu@carebears.mine.nu) Received: from carebears.mine.nu (localhost.carebears.net [127.0.0.1]) by carebears.mine.nu (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F2A8A109D for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 17:43:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 134.47.109.185 (SquirrelMail authenticated user chgu) by carebears.mine.nu with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 17:43:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <51070.134.47.109.185.1057592615.squirrel@carebears.mine.nu> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 17:43:35 +0200 (CEST) From: chgu@carebears.mine.nu To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Subject: [Fwd: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!"] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 15:44:26 -0000 ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!" From: chgu@carebears.mine.nu Date: Mon, July 7, 2003 5:32 pm To: "Jerry Hicks" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thursday, June 26, 2003, at 07:51 AM, Paul Robinson wrote: > >> The big one is gcc. Remove that, and we're really rolling. The >> alternatives >> aren't very good though - TenDRA? I remember the troll a few weeks ago suggesting this, and maybe it's a plan. The impact would be massive though. > > Plan 9's compilers are the closest thing I've seen toward a compiler that could be used to bootstrap a BSD. I believe one would pay a hefty price in terms of optimization however. > > I actually got the assembler, compiler and linker working on Freebsd a while back. The Plan 9 compiler suite generates COFF output though and I needed to get a crt0 set up for it (which I never did). FreeBSD's IBCS image activator was able to load the images without a hitch. > >> All those makefiles with command line options to be passed to gcc... > > Bah, child's play :-) > Why dont strip FreeBSD down as much as possible and try to make ports of the software. Like sendmail. Why is sendmail in /usr/src ? i guess it would be better to have in in ports. the same with cvs. I guess there is much software in /usr/src that dont "need" to be there. My opinion is to keep FreeBSD`s /usr/src small. (god damn, my mailclient dont really under stand the "replay"-word. sorry, Jerry Hicks.) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 7 08:59:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4A237B404 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta04bw.bigpond.com (mta04bw.bigpond.com [139.134.6.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F0F43F3F for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:59:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ian.pulsford@bigpond.com) Received: from bigpond.com ([144.135.24.72]) by mta04bw.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 mta04bw Jul 16 2002 22:47:55) with SMTP id HHNWEK00.IJ8; Tue, 8 Jul 2003 01:59:08 +1000 Received: from ess-p-144-138-77-243.mega.tmns.net.au ([144.138.77.243]) by bwmam02.bigpond.com(MAM REL_3_3_2c 11/26501482); 08 Jul 2003 01:59:10 Message-ID: <3F099920.200@bigpond.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 02:00:32 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030704 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Burgess References: <3BD4A5842C8AE2428158AB1EE6DCC37713FEB5@mail.fbfguns.com> In-Reply-To: <3BD4A5842C8AE2428158AB1EE6DCC37713FEB5@mail.fbfguns.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Daemon feet X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 15:59:30 -0000 Jason Burgess wrote: >Pandora's Feet > >Jason Burgess >jb@fbfguns.com > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Sue Blake [mailto:sue@welearn.com.au] >Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 3:51 AM >To: Josef Grosch >Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Daemon feet > >On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 09:43:44PM -0500, Josef Grosch wrote: > > >>On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 10:30:20AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >> >> >>>Has Beastie ever been seen without his shoes? >>> >>> >>Yes, they are cloven. >> >> > >Nah, they're too long for that. > >I suspect something awful would happen if the shoes came off. >Could that be the one thing that daemons dread? > > The stench of 30 years of zombie threads, untold numbers of killed processes, the screams of halted systems, and the groans of crashed machines trapped. Ian From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 7 14:22:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA70437B401 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta01-srv.alltel.net (mta01.alltel.net [166.102.165.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2EE43F3F for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:22:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gehicks@alltel.net) Received: from alltel.net ([69.40.18.5]) by mta01-srv.alltel.net with ESMTP id <20030707212238.ZSJR26683.mta01-srv.alltel.net@alltel.net>; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 16:22:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 17:22:41 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: chgu@carebears.mine.nu From: Jerry Hicks In-Reply-To: <51070.134.47.109.185.1057592615.squirrel@carebears.mine.nu> Message-Id: <24367906-B0C1-11D7-8EDA-0030657B5F1E@alltel.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: RMS says: "Use BSD, for goodness sake!"] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 21:22:40 -0000 [snips ] On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 11:43 AM, chgu@carebears.mine.nu wrote: > > Why dont strip FreeBSD down as much as possible and try to make ports > of > the software. Like sendmail. Why is sendmail in /usr/src ? i guess it > would be better to have in in ports. the same with cvs. > > I guess there is much software in /usr/src that dont "need" to be > there. > My opinion is to keep FreeBSD`s /usr/src small. > I generally agree that a smaller system would be good. It really boils down to an effort/risk/payback relationship. There are things that will break if a lot of gratuitous change is made to the organization of the base system. With those relationships in mind it is hard to see the benefits of shaking up the base system just to put it on a diet unless there is a compelling reason. It seems to me that a working PicoBSD would go a long way toward satisfying the overwhelmingly small population of people interested in SkinnyBSD. > > (god damn, my mailclient dont really under stand the "replay"-word. > sorry, > Jerry Hicks.) That's ok :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks gehicks@bellsouth.net From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 9 01:32:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58D7137B401 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 01:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.epweb.co.za (thor.epweb.co.za [196.14.166.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5F4243F93 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 01:32:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za ([196.14.166.22]) by bluesteel.co.za (bluesteel.co.za [196.14.166.14]) (Cipher TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.4.R) with ESMTP id 60-md50000000233.tmp for ; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:32:32 +0200 Received: from tulip.epweb.co.za (localhost.epweb.co.za [127.0.0.1]) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h698WT8a008112 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:32:29 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za) Received: (from ultraviolet@localhost) by tulip.epweb.co.za (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h698WOEM008111 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:32:24 +0200 (SAST) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:32:24 +0200 From: William Fletcher To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030709083224.GI97680@tulip.epweb.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DwoPkXS38qd3dnhB" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Processed: bluesteel.co.za, Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:32:32 +0200 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 196.14.166.22 X-Return-Path: ultraviolet@tulip.epweb.co.za X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSD certification. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:32:48 -0000 --DwoPkXS38qd3dnhB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=20 I was just wondering what would be a good certification for a person who doesn't have any. Preferably something with a little bit of challenge. And, preferably FreeBSD specific. =20 And, if I can do it in South Africa, all the better.=20 Otherwise, any other interesting courses?=20 I'd like to get my cissp, before I turn 25.=20 Sorry I didn't check the mailing lists\google. Somebody in the office suggested I try get my boss to send me on a FreeBSD course. Since he wants to do redhat certification if he can. =20 --=20 William Fletcher (ultraviolet) Powered by http://www.FreeBSD.org/ IT Administrator, EPWeb networks. irc at irc.epweb.co.za http://www.epweb.co.za/ http://vision.za.net/irc/ Tel: +27 (041) 395 6800 =20 Fax: +27 (041) 395 6818=09 Support: support@epweb.co.za --DwoPkXS38qd3dnhB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/C9MYju3fq0dMPxsRApJFAKCrzwNew+2qqmcQL9MuEjuZORBeUQCgl13s 81gWoPzk0pMxLXyh1VGPa08= =bcsJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DwoPkXS38qd3dnhB-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 9 01:59:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28FF937B401 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 01:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A11D143FA3 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 01:59:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldtos.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.247.28] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19aAn8-0000kK-00; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 01:59:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3F0BD8F3.92BB3E69@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 01:57:23 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ultraviolet@epweb.co.za References: <20030709083224.GI97680@tulip.epweb.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4da6253335c4a0847d44879e575c1b682350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD certification. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:59:41 -0000 William Fletcher wrote: > I was just wondering what would be a good certification for a person > who doesn't have any. Preferably something with a little bit of challenge. > And, preferably FreeBSD specific. > > And, if I can do it in South Africa, all the better. > > Otherwise, any other interesting courses? http://www.usenix.org/events/bsdcon03/tut.html -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 9 02:19:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB95537B401 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 02:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2943E43F75 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 02:19:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19aB6c-000Jjb-8j; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:19:18 +0100 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:19:18 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: William Fletcher Message-ID: <20030709091918.GU40220@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030709083224.GI97680@tulip.epweb.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <20030709083224.GI97680@tulip.epweb.co.za> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD certification. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 09:19:14 -0000 On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 10:32:24AM +0200, William Fletcher wrote: > I was just wondering what would be a good certification for a person > who doesn't have any. Preferably something with a little bit of challenge. > And, preferably FreeBSD specific. =20 Two years ago when I was working for the 3-employers-ago company, I came up with the idea of a decent BSD-specific qualification program. It got built out on paper to include Apache, Sendmail, etc. configuation and management. The idea was to make it more useful (and valuable) than any of the rather cruddy (IMHO) Solaris or Redhat certs. Delivery and even examination would= =20 be on-line, with the curriculum available to training centres who would wan= t=20 to "value-add" and provide classroom training. In principle however, you=20 would be able to get stuck in from anywhere in the world for a relatively= =20 low cost. Even though it would be cheap, it would be intentionally of a hig= h=20 standard (read: quite hard to do) to keep it's "value" up there above the= =20 rest. I did quite a bit of work on it before realising the market was too small. = =20 That market has grown since though, and it's something that I might look at again next year - I'm happy to look into going into parternship with somebody else who wants to do some work on it right now. Bizzarely, I'm now working for a department inside a UK University developing a brand new e-learning delivery platform, so some of the experience here might rub off and I might end up building it anyway. The biggest problem is that ideally a formal accreditation model needs to b= e=20 drawn up, it should take note of CPD activites already completed, ideally w= e=20 should be looking to see an application of learning, etc. and that's all in= =20 the realms of academia. If there are any academics who want to get involved= =20 in something like this, just get in touch. I feel a tad out of my depth,=20 even though I'm now immersed in the whole environment. Note: tutorials at conferences and reading o'reilly books is NOT the same a= s=20 working through a formal accredited certification. They will address skill= =20 gaps, but they are address specific problem domains rather than providing= =20 you with the information to address new problem domains on your own. =20 > Otherwise, any other interesting courses?=20 Like Terry pointed out, the tutorials at BSD con might be your best bet thi= s=20 year as long as you see them for what they are. =20 > I'd like to get my cissp, before I turn 25.=20 CCNA is a good one to get if you want to work in the ISP/carrier market,=20 even if you don't want to touch the network, just the servers. It's=20 interesting too, I think. I'm planning to do CCNA exams later this year jus= t=20 when I get a little more spare time. =20 > Sorry I didn't check the mailing lists\google. Somebody in the office > suggested I try get my boss to send me on a FreeBSD course. Since > he wants to do redhat certification if he can. Some people really rate the redhat stuff. I don't. I don't rate the=20 Sun/solaris stuff either. And don't get me started on MSCE. Anyway, anybody interested in working on a FBSD certification programme? --=20 Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 9 05:50:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D975B37B401 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 05:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA34743FAF for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 05:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aEPQ-0009KP-JA for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2003 13:50:56 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h69CotCl090079 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:50:56 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h69CotIf090078 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:50:55 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:50:55 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19aEPQ-0009KP-JA*fi4XaViCIlU* Subject: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 12:50:59 -0000 Besides Grog's page, where is the best place to get concise updates on what is going on in the SCO lawsuit, and how (if at all) it affects the BSDs? NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 9 19:20:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E99537B401 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from citusc.usc.edu (citusc.usc.edu [128.125.38.123]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0298143F85 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@citusc.usc.edu) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc.usc.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) id h6A2XFY00507; Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:33:15 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:33:15 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Jonathon McKitrick Message-ID: <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 01:50:55PM +0100 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:20:47 -0000 --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 01:50:55PM +0100, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >=20 > Besides Grog's page, where is the best place to get concise updates on wh= at > is going on in the SCO lawsuit, and how (if at all) it affects the BSDs? >=20 > NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. "Nope, it still doesn't affect the BSDs" Print this message out and refer to it as often as you need to. Kris --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/DNBqWry0BWjoQKURAqUHAKDwNV44jZPUaXcy3YrxbFpP8bK2pQCeKRgV qXVfz6V16qWXTuymL/lAua4= =2+q7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 10 05:35:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D2F37B401 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6AA43F3F for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:35:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19aadi-00053J-Tn; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:35:10 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h6ACZACl097026; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:35:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h6ACZ9SU097025; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:35:09 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:35:09 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Kris Kennaway Message-ID: <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19aadi-00053J-Tn*voVeelpqzaU* cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:35:13 -0000 On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 07:33:15PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: : "Nope, it still doesn't affect the BSDs" : : Print this message out and refer to it as often as you need to. Touche'. :-) The ripple effect, however, i.e. IP concerns over open source, affect all OSS, right? jcm -- If you cannot do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 10 06:31:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10FA137B404 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 06:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta1.adelphia.net (mta1.adelphia.net [64.8.50.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E2543FAF for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 06:31:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta1.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030710133610.GFKO25556.mta1.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:36:10 -0400 Message-ID: <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:31:25 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:31:27 -0000 Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 07:33:15PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > : "Nope, it still doesn't affect the BSDs" > : > : Print this message out and refer to it as often as you need to. > > Touche'. :-) > > The ripple effect, however, i.e. IP concerns over open source, affect all > OSS, right? No, although IP concerns affect all interested media sources. When it comes down to actual legal action, Stallman is right: there is not such thing as IP. "Intellectual Property" is a stupid term coined to include many types of legal protections (copyright, trademarks, etc) each of which have different rules and different laws. The question of who owns what was _settled_ with the BSDs and no amount of obfuscation by the media or the people who want to make money out of suing people (or the people allegedly behind those people who want to hurt the competition by suing) will change the ruling of a previous lawsuit. The reality (if you actually look at the facts) is that the most likely thing to happen is that SCO will not get anywhere with their lawsuit, thus the likelyhood that they'll even get around to challenging a previous ruling is almost non-existant. So your "ripple effect" is more likely to help the BSDs (by validating their previous court victories) than hurt them. I am not a lawyer. If you bet money or risk your job based on information contained in this email, that's your business and I can't be responsible for the outcome. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 10 07:15:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5DEA37B401 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDBDE43F3F for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:15:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19acCc-000AdP-5i; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:15:18 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h6AEFHCl097399; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:15:17 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h6AEFGQR097398; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:15:16 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:15:16 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030710141516.GA97366@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19acCc-000AdP-5i*X.Uz5PWb7mc* cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:15:21 -0000 On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 09:31:25AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: ------------8<------------------ : rules and different laws. The question of who owns what was _settled_ with : the BSDs and no amount of obfuscation by the media or the people who want to : make money out of suing people (or the people allegedly behind those people : who want to hurt the competition by suing) will change the ruling of a : previous lawsuit. ------------8<------------------ What about additions to the source SINCE then? : The reality (if you actually look at the facts) is that the most likely : thing : to happen is that SCO will not get anywhere with their lawsuit, thus the : likelyhood that they'll even get around to challenging a previous ruling is : almost non-existant. So your "ripple effect" is more likely to help the : BSDs : (by validating their previous court victories) than hurt them. I agree. If there is nothing SINCE then that could cause a problem, as Wes said in his last column, the BSDs can step up to the plate as a possibly superior option/choice. jcm -- If you cannot do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 10 11:26:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8009637B401 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta6.adelphia.net (mta6.adelphia.net [64.8.50.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB27843F93 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:26:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta6.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030710182635.HTUJ10267.mta6.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:26:35 -0400 Message-ID: <3F0DAFDA.2050708@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:26:34 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> <20030710141516.GA97366@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20030710141516.GA97366@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:26:36 -0000 Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 09:31:25AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > ------------8<------------------ > : rules and different laws. The question of who owns what was _settled_ with > : the BSDs and no amount of obfuscation by the media or the people who want to > : make money out of suing people (or the people allegedly behind those people > : who want to hurt the competition by suing) will change the ruling of a > : previous lawsuit. > ------------8<------------------ > > What about additions to the source SINCE then? > > : The reality (if you actually look at the facts) is that the most likely > : thing > : to happen is that SCO will not get anywhere with their lawsuit, thus the > : likelyhood that they'll even get around to challenging a previous ruling is > : almost non-existant. So your "ripple effect" is more likely to help the > : BSDs > : (by validating their previous court victories) than hurt them. > > I agree. If there is nothing SINCE then that could cause a problem, as Wes > said in his last column, the BSDs can step up to the plate as a possibly > superior option/choice. I don't think so. Some of the things the BSD lawsuit established are a) in circumstances where code has been stolen, you can't stop the entire project, you just remove the offending code and b) once someone has been contributing to a project like BSD (or Linux) they really have no basis for demanding financial damages. I think that if SCO _wins_ the lawsuit, it will help the free software cause, since the Linux project will be required to remove a few bits of code to satisfy SCO's demands (thus proving that a free software project can easily survive lawsuits such as this). That will be the end of it. Remember that US law is based on precedents, and BSD has a precident set already. I firmly believe, also, that the Linux folks should take a hint from the successful actions of UC Berkely and counter-sue that SCO has stolen GPLed Linux technology for thier softwares. Demand that a non-biased third party be given leave to review SCO's source code to prove that there's no GPLed code in it. I think that would put SCO in a tight position, just like it worked for the BSD's years ago. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 10 16:33:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1C237B401 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.86.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8292743FA3 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:33:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjeays2551@rogers.com) Received: from rogers.com ([24.101.253.54]) by fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.comESMTP <20030710233303.QOUV427382.fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@rogers.com>; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:33:03 -0400 Message-ID: <3F0DF7B6.1060300@rogers.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:33:10 -0400 From: mjeays2551 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> <20030710141516.GA97366@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0DAFDA.2050708@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at fep01-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [24.101.253.54] using ID at Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:33:02 -0400 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 23:33:13 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > > I firmly believe, also, that the Linux folks should take a hint from the > successful actions of UC Berkely and counter-sue that SCO has stolen > GPLed > Linux technology for thier softwares. Demand that a non-biased third > party > be given leave to review SCO's source code to prove that there's no GPLed > code in it. I think that would put SCO in a tight position, just like it > worked for the BSD's years ago. > That's a brilliant idea, that I haven't seen so far in all the articles I have read on this wretched subject. I hope someone takes it up. My belief is that SCO has stamped firmly on the dragon's tail, and is waiting around to see what it will do. To stretch the analogy further (maybe too far), upping the claim to $3 billion was like giving the dragon a further kick, about where the tail joins the body. We are all waiting for the response with anticipation and delight. Mike Jeays From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 10 19:49:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44FDA37B401 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mooseriver.com (adsl-68-73-82-199.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net [68.73.82.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A685E43FBD for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:48:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: by mooseriver.com (Postfix, from userid 200) id E9DD7467; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:48:56 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:48:56 -0500 From: Josef Grosch To: Andrew Robinson Message-ID: <20030711024856.GA10888@mooseriver.com> References: <20030711001942.683F537B401@hub.freebsd.org> <200307101908.47976.andrewr@uidaho.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200307101908.47976.andrewr@uidaho.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: *BSD is dying X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 02:49:00 -0000 Moving this to chat where it belongs ..... On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 07:08:47PM -0700, Andrew Robinson wrote: > I can assure you that this clown posts exactly this post to /. on a regular > basis ... except that half the time, it's BSD that's dying, and the other > half it's Windows Server, and the other half (ahem) it's Linux ... > > Andrew > > > > > > >http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=70502&cid=6404771 > > > > > > > >It is now official - Netcraft has confirmed: *BSD is dying > > > > > > > >Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered *BSD community when > > > >recently IDC confirmed that *BSD accounts for less than a fraction of 1 > > > >percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft > > > >survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this > > > >news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing > > > >in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last > > > >[samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test. > > > > > > > >You don't need to be a Kreskin [amazingkreskin.com] to predict *BSD's > > > >future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In > > > >fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. > > > >Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, > > > >*BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of > > > >blood. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of > > > >its core developers. > > > > [ YATA, YATA, YATA We have all seen this before ] This loser has been posting this for several years now. Reminds me of when I was in college and got a job tending bar. There were these 6 middle age guys that used to come in every day around 5:30pm. They would sit it the same places at the bar, order the same beers, and tell the same lies to each other over and over again. They each had their own rant they would go into if they got enough beer into them. We used to call them "The Loosers Club". Every bar I've ever been in has had it's own special version of the club. This guy is about 15 to 20 year out from joining. That and 75 pounds and a dead end job. The bullshit you hear today is the bullshit your heard yesterday and will hear tomorrw. Ignore him. Don't waste your time. He's not going away. We are stuck with him My $0.02 Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 5.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 11 01:56:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E71C37B401 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 01:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpi.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpi.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E69443F85 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 01:56:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 23794 invoked by uid 50005); 11 Jul 2003 08:56:14 -0000 Received: from tms2@mail.ptd.net by smtpi.ha-net.ptd.net by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.15 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4275. spamassassin: 2.43. Clear:. Processed in 0.591139 secs); 11 Jul 2003 08:56:14 -0000 Received: from du124.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.124]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpi.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Jul 2003 08:56:13 -0000 Message-ID: <3F0E7B5D.30102@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:54:53 -0400 From: "T.M. Sommers" Organization: None User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20030104 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> <20030710141516.GA97366@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0DAFDA.2050708@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Jonathon McKitrick cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:56:16 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > > I think that if SCO _wins_ the lawsuit, it will help the free software > cause, > since the Linux project will be required to remove a few bits of code to > satisfy SCO's demands (thus proving that a free software project can easily > survive lawsuits such as this). That will be the end of it. Remember that > US law is based on precedents, and BSD has a precident set already. The outcome of the BSD case was a settlement, which is not precedent at all. The opinion on the various motions can be precedent, but as it came from a trial court, it is not binding on anyone, including other trial courts. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 11 03:39:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2857937B401 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 03:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DA643FAF for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 03:39:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-67.30.108.143.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([67.30.108.143] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19avFs-0004TX-00; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 03:35:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3F0E91FB.57B452A5@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 03:31:23 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> <3F0DAFDA.2050708@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4a04720754f187de17fa29ccdfad2dadea2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Jonathon McKitrick cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:39:50 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > I don't think so. Some of the things the BSD lawsuit established are a) in > circumstances where code has been stolen, you can't stop the entire project, > you just remove the offending code Actually, this is not true. You can ask Jordan, Nate, Chris D. and other who got the "Cease and Desist" letter. Originally, only BSDI has the ability to continue to distribute binaries (but not sources) until they could base their code on the 4.4Lite release. The reason that FreeBSD and NetBSD got the same deal on shipping code until 4.4Lite came out from CSRG was that I and a couple other of the senior engineers at Novell USG camped out in Mike DeFazio's office (then V.P. of Novell USG, and a guy who came to Novell with the USL acquisition) and squawked like chickens for all we were worth. We also got Art Sabsovitch and Dennis Ritchie involved; Art was Novell USG (USL)'s Chief Scientist at the time, and Dennis Ritchie was... Dennis Ritchie. Not a USL employee, he was still on good terms with the USL folks. 8-). We even had some die-hard Linux people involved ("You're next!") who were then Novell employees, people like Jim Freeman. We pointed out that FreeBSD had moved copies of the archives off shore into non-Berne signatory countries (which they had, and which a number of us had been very insistent on recommending as soon as the BSDI suit became public -- well before UCB was dragged into the fray, and a while before the Novell acquisition of USL -- and with it the suit). With no Copyright treaties with the U.S., and being prepared to distribute from there, these people, at least, could act with impunity (this is the main reason why I think that Linux doesn't need to worry, too). The code had been saved. This was the same strategy later used to get around U.S. ITAR restrictions, though in that case, all the code came from outside the U.S. at the time. I think that Mark Murray, as much as we sometimes piss each other off (Hi, Mark!) deserves much of the unsung credit for getting the U.S. to relax it's crypto export restrictions, whose only effect was to depress creation of U.S. cryptographers and encourage their creation in non-treaty countries -- a "double whammy". Those of us who had been long time Novell employees also personally lobbied Ray Noorda, using such arguments as "It will be annoying to the competitor from Redmond", and "It's a public relations coup, waiting to be grasped". 8-). I think that was a factor in Ray later ordering the suit dropped, and in Novell's current coming out against it: it's part of their culture and history now. In any case, there wasn't any such legal precedent established Novell permitting the distribution of FreeBSD and NetBSD. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 11 04:58:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF2D37B401 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8DC43FB1 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19awXc-000N6L-M7 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:58:20 +0100 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h6BBwKCl002085 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:58:20 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h6BBwJfi002084 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:58:19 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:58:19 +0100 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030711115819.GA2048@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19awXc-000N6L-M7*WnMrSrMi3Qc* Subject: What is some of the latest written-from-scratch FreeBSD code? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:58:23 -0000 I would expect most would be in -CURRENT, but I'd like to read some of the latest code that ISN'T an update of pre-existing code. What are some source files that are completely new in the source tree? NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 11 05:15:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3700037B401 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pd5mo3so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D14C343FB1 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:15:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from pd5mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd5mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.144]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HHV00HG70Q46W@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:15:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml6so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml6so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.150]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HHV006RQ0Q4NU@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:15:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk (h24-87-233-42.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.233.42]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HHV005DB0Q33R@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:15:39 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:15:36 -0700 From: Colin Percival In-reply-to: <20030711115819.GA2048@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca To: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030711050610.02da5908@popserver.sfu.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What is some of the latest written-from-scratch FreeBSD code? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:15:42 -0000 At 12:58 11/07/2003 +0100, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >I would expect most would be in -CURRENT, but I'd like to read some of the >latest code that ISN'T an update of pre-existing code. > >What are some source files that are completely new in the source tree? > >NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. These files come to mind as having been added since the beginning of June: src/sys/powerpc/powermac/hrowpic.c src/sys/powerpc/powermac/hrowpicvar.h src/sys/powerpc/powermac/grackle.c src/sys/powerpc/powermac/gracklevar.h src/sys/dev/usb/umct.c src/sys/modules/umct/Makefile src/sys/modules/ath_hal/Makefile src/lib/libc/ia64/gen/signalcontext.c src/sys/dev/ofw/openpromio.c src/sys/dev/ofw/openpromio.h src/etc/rc.d/gbde src/lib/libc/locale/gbk.c There's also lots of new ports and documentation, of course. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 11 05:55:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A5F37B401 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta4.adelphia.net (mta4.adelphia.net [64.8.50.184]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872B443F75 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:55:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta4.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030711125514.CNDD1347.mta4.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:55:14 -0400 Message-ID: <3F0EB3B1.30102@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:55:13 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> <20030710141516.GA97366@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0DAFDA.2050708@potentialtech.com> <3F0E7B5D.30102@mail.ptd.net> In-Reply-To: <3F0E7B5D.30102@mail.ptd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:55:15 -0000 T.M. Sommers wrote: > Bill Moran wrote: > > > >> I think that if SCO _wins_ the lawsuit, it will help the free software >> cause, >> since the Linux project will be required to remove a few bits of code to >> satisfy SCO's demands (thus proving that a free software project can >> easily >> survive lawsuits such as this). That will be the end of it. Remember >> that >> US law is based on precedents, and BSD has a precident set already. > > The outcome of the BSD case was a settlement, which is not precedent at > all. The opinion on the various motions can be precedent, but as it > came from a trial court, it is not binding on anyone, including other > trial courts. Hmmm ... good point. For some reason I hadn't seen that perfectly obvious point. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 11 06:03:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDAE37B401 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta7.adelphia.net (mta7.adelphia.net [64.8.50.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C13043F93 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 06:03:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta7.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030711130355.PXTF1347.mta7.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:03:55 -0400 Message-ID: <3F0EB5BB.1080203@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:03:55 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> <20030710141516.GA97366@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0DAFDA.2050708@potentialtech.com> <3F0E91FB.57B452A5@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3F0E91FB.57B452A5@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:03:57 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: > Bill Moran wrote: > >>I don't think so. Some of the things the BSD lawsuit established are a) in >>circumstances where code has been stolen, you can't stop the entire project, >>you just remove the offending code > > Actually, this is not true. You can ask Jordan, Nate, Chris D. > and other who got the "Cease and Desist" letter. Originally, > only BSDI has the ability to continue to distribute binaries > (but not sources) until they could base their code on the > 4.4Lite release. > > The reason that FreeBSD and NetBSD got the same deal on shipping > code until 4.4Lite came out from CSRG was that I and a couple > other of the senior engineers at Novell USG camped out in Mike > DeFazio's office (then V.P. of Novell USG, and a guy who came to > Novell with the USL acquisition) and squawked like chickens for > all we were worth. We also got Art Sabsovitch and Dennis Ritchie > involved; Art was Novell USG (USL)'s Chief Scientist at the time, > and Dennis Ritchie was... Dennis Ritchie. Not a USL employee, he > was still on good terms with the USL folks. 8-). We even had > some die-hard Linux people involved ("You're next!") who were > then Novell employees, people like Jim Freeman. Wow. It's amazing the things that go on that you don't really hear about unless you're directly involved. > We pointed out that FreeBSD had moved copies of the archives off > shore into non-Berne signatory countries (which they had, and > which a number of us had been very insistent on recommending as > soon as the BSDI suit became public -- well before UCB was dragged > into the fray, and a while before the Novell acquisition of USL -- > and with it the suit). With no Copyright treaties with the U.S., > and being prepared to distribute from there, these people, at least, > could act with impunity (this is the main reason why I think that > Linux doesn't need to worry, too). The code had been saved. > > This was the same strategy later used to get around U.S. ITAR > restrictions, though in that case, all the code came from outside > the U.S. at the time. I think that Mark Murray, as much as we > sometimes piss each other off (Hi, Mark!) deserves much of the > unsung credit for getting the U.S. to relax it's crypto export > restrictions, whose only effect was to depress creation of U.S. > cryptographers and encourage their creation in non-treaty > countries -- a "double whammy". > > Those of us who had been long time Novell employees also personally > lobbied Ray Noorda, using such arguments as "It will be annoying to > the competitor from Redmond", and "It's a public relations coup, > waiting to be grasped". 8-). I think that was a factor in Ray > later ordering the suit dropped, and in Novell's current coming out > against it: it's part of their culture and history now. > > In any case, there wasn't any such legal precedent established > Novell permitting the distribution of FreeBSD and NetBSD. I'm still having trouble understanding the motive behind all this. Obviously, SCO can't seriously believe they can gain anything from this lawsuit ... Are they nuts and actually think they can win? Is there some other motive that no one has yet to discern? Even if the "Microsoft Conspiracy" theories are true, what does MS expect to gain from such a silly attack, and why would SCO agree to be a patsy? The other thing that irritates me is the fact that US copyright law, which is supposed to protect development and encourage it, seems to be used to hurt it more often than not. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 11 09:51:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1B237B405 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.uk.hybyte.net (mail.uk.hybyte.net [213.86.56.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF0E543F85 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 09:51:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atrull@hybyte.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.uk.hybyte.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9C0EB2A9 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from by localhost (amavisd-new, port ) id JAG0wLUA for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:26 +0100 (BST) Received: by mail.uk.hybyte.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A48CFEB2A6; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:26 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:51:26 +0100 From: Alex Trull To: Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030711165126.GA11797@mail.uk.hybyte.net> References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> <20030710141516.GA97366@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0DAFDA.2050708@potentialtech.com> <3F0E91FB.57B452A5@mindspring.com> <3F0EB5BB.1080203@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F0EB5BB.1080203@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hybyte.com Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:51:31 -0000 * Bill Moran [2003-07-11 09:03:55 -0400]: > I'm still having trouble understanding the motive behind all this. > Obviously, SCO can't seriously believe they can gain anything from > this lawsuit ... Are they nuts and actually think they can win? Is > there some other motive that no one has yet to discern? Even if > the "Microsoft Conspiracy" theories are true, what does MS expect > to gain from such a silly attack, and why would SCO agree to be > a patsy? > > The other thing that irritates me is the fact that US copyright law, > which is supposed to protect development and encourage it, seems to > be used to hurt it more often than not. > > -- > Bill Moran > Potential Technologies > http://www.potentialtech.com Rumour has it that SCO produce nothing of value and just want to be bought by IBM. As it happens, this would make SCO's current shareholders' pockets rather well lined. I doubt IBM would have any cause to want to own SCO beyond making the problem go away - so commence the litigation! I'm quite relaxed and looking forward to seeing the outcome. (From a safe distance) Cheers, Alex Trull Systems and Network Administrator - Hybyte https://mail.uk.hybyte.net/~atrull/pgppub.key 0x1DCBCFB7 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 11 12:47:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B083B37B401 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.aphroland.org (portal.aphroland.org [216.39.174.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA0D43F75 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:47:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from damm@infinitevoid.net) Received: by portal.aphroland.org (Postfix, from userid 1010) id 16E22278018; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from infinitevoid.net (10.10.10.88-unassigned.aphroland.org [10.10.10.88]) by portal.aphroland.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86CA727800B for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by infinitevoid.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8890425B for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:47:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Scott M. Likens" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030711165126.GA11797@mail.uk.hybyte.net> References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> <20030710141516.GA97366@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0E91FB.57B452A5@mindspring.com> <3F0EB5BB.1080203@potentialtech.com> <20030711165126.GA11797@mail.uk.hybyte.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1057952852.59851.3.camel@acheron.livid.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.0 Date: 11 Jul 2003 12:47:32 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.42 X-Spam-Level: X-Sanitizer: This message has been sanitized! X-Sanitizer-URL: http://mailtools.anomy.net/ X-Sanitizer-Rev: $Id: Sanitizer.pm,v 1.54 2002/02/15 16:59:07 bre Exp $ Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:47:14 -0000 On Fri, 2003-07-11 at 09:51, Alex Trull wrote: > * Bill Moran [2003-07-11 09:03:55 -0400]: > > > I'm still having trouble understanding the motive behind all this. > > Obviously, SCO can't seriously believe they can gain anything from > > this lawsuit ... Are they nuts and actually think they can win? Is > > there some other motive that no one has yet to discern? Even if > > the "Microsoft Conspiracy" theories are true, what does MS expect > > to gain from such a silly attack, and why would SCO agree to be > > a patsy? > > > > The other thing that irritates me is the fact that US copyright law, > > which is supposed to protect development and encourage it, seems to > > be used to hurt it more often than not. > > > > -- > > Bill Moran > > Potential Technologies > > http://www.potentialtech.com > > Rumour has it that SCO produce nothing of value and just want to be > bought by IBM. > > As it happens, this would make SCO's current shareholders' pockets > rather well lined. I doubt IBM would have any cause to want to own > SCO beyond making the problem go away - so commence the litigation! > > I'm quite relaxed and looking forward to seeing the outcome. > (From a safe distance) > > Cheers, > Alex Trull The simple truth is, SCO doesn't really care if they win or loose. They are seeking to impress the public, to make Linux sign the deal so they can be a contender again. The whole issue isn't black & white here, it's mixed in with old Contracts, IP Laws, this that and well... The simple truth is they don't want to goto court, they want Linux to cower like a kitten to the mighty SCO because some bigwig in SCO has deemed he is going to start with Linux and see where he can go from there. Their intentions are to get a big piece of the pie, and nothing more. If he can scare the mighty linux into anything really, he's got suddenly a large piece of the pie. What's really bad about this, is this was over contracts that were signed nearly (over 20years i believe) and what's even more stupid about this is that they haven't been enforced in ages. So it makes their IP suit even harder. Wether IBM or SCO or SGI or AT&T still has the IP rights is not the point. SCO has the bucks right now to make the press look and give them tons of attention. and that's all SCO wants is the press. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 12 02:37:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC50737B401 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 02:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A0D43F93 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 02:37:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfnbl.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.221.117] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19bGp8-0003Lo-00; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 02:37:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3F0FD6AA.E01F8AD0@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 02:36:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> <20030710141516.GA97366@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0DAFDA.2050708@potentialtech.com> <3F0E91FB.57B452A5@mindspring.com> <3F0EB5BB.1080203@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a41128fcbc79354e6efacc845d1251f7a0a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:37:50 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > I'm still having trouble understanding the motive behind all this. Money. > Obviously, SCO can't seriously believe they can gain anything from > this lawsuit ... Are they nuts and actually think they can win? Is > there some other motive that no one has yet to discern? Even if > the "Microsoft Conspiracy" theories are true, what does MS expect > to gain from such a silly attack, and why would SCO agree to be > a patsy? All tort (contract) law is really about risk analysis. It's very much like the scene at the start of "The Fight Club", when Brad Pitt is telling the apalled woman about how the automobile industry decides on whether or not to issue a recall. At this point, SCO's job is to make it more expensive to actually go to court than to pay them off. It is said that George Bernard Shaw once asked a socialite: =93Would you sleep with me for a million pounds?=94 Certainly, she replied with a smile. =93Would you sleep with me for ten pounds?=94 Shaw then asked. =93Certainly not!=94 she replied indignantly. =93What do you think I am?=94 =93We=92ve already established that,=94 Shaw said. =93Now we=92re just haggling over price.=94 = I haven't decided yet, whether IBM will settele, on the basis of the short term cost, or give no ground at all, on the basis that to do so would invite extortionary lawsuits from other companies (IBM is in a lot of businesses, which makes them a very big target). The idea that they would "stand on principle" never entered my mind. It probably helps to remember that their current CEO, Sam Palmisano, was Corporate Counsel for IBM for years before he became CEO, so it is more than likely that SCO really picked the wrong company to go after. There is also the faint possiblity that this is really just a marketing ploy, cooked up between the both of them. > The other thing that irritates me is the fact that US copyright law, > which is supposed to protect development and encourage it, seems to > be used to hurt it more often than not. This is not at all about Copyright law; it's about contracts. It's true that the Copyright law gave then the leverage needed to extract the license contracts in the first place, but it's the license contracts which are at issue. The legal system in any countery with a strong government will be used the same way by people who "play the system" to get what they want: you can't come up with a general rule that will cover every contingency (or you can, but we call that "Religion"). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 12 22:38:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608D437B401 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 22:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E4FA43F93 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2003 22:38:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 85AB8526BF; Sun, 13 Jul 2003 15:08:37 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 15:08:37 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030713053837.GC94666@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030709125055.GA90046@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20030709193315.A494@citusc.usc.edu> <20030710123509.GA97000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0D6AAD.9030406@potentialtech.com> <20030710141516.GA97366@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3F0DAFDA.2050708@potentialtech.com> <3F0E91FB.57B452A5@mindspring.com> <3F0EB5BB.1080203@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NKoe5XOeduwbEQHU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F0EB5BB.1080203@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where can I find FreeBSD-related SCO lawsuit updates? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 05:38:41 -0000 --NKoe5XOeduwbEQHU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Friday, 11 July 2003 at 9:03:55 -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> In any case, there wasn't any such legal precedent established >> Novell permitting the distribution of FreeBSD and NetBSD. > > I'm still having trouble understanding the motive behind all this. > Obviously, SCO can't seriously believe they can gain anything from > this lawsuit ... Are they nuts and actually think they can win? Is > there some other motive that no one has yet to discern? Even if > the "Microsoft Conspiracy" theories are true, what does MS expect > to gain from such a silly attack, and why would SCO agree to be > a patsy? My current best guess is that they're hoping to get royalties from Linux. That's why they don't want to identify the code; they want it to be in there. They've said a number of things that point to this conclusion. See http://www.lemis.com/grog/SCO/sontag.html: "GPL has the same derivative rights concept [as UNIX]," according to Sontag: "Once contributed, code cannot be removed." Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --NKoe5XOeduwbEQHU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/EPBdIubykFB6QiMRAj0uAJ4xmeSNp7QCR4f4VArh5jqukq4/TwCgjdtl 0FkaNfJfDgjwhmrfbgcOKhk= =KPoM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NKoe5XOeduwbEQHU--