From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 27 08:22:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760DC16A4B3 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7374243F75 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:22:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from daleco.biz ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:24:53 -0600 Message-ID: <3F9D461B.4050501@daleco.biz> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:21:47 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030920 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2003 16:24:53.0843 (UTC) FILETIME=[DA5B5A30:01C39CA6] Subject: But I sleep in a bit on Sundays! (re: cron message...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:22:15 -0000 (Yes, I probably shouldn't do this to either my ISP, or Yahoo! ...) I was amused by the following, and curious as to why I received this message? ************************************************* Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 08:15:04 -0600 (CST) From: root@deskone.daleco.biz (Cron Daemon) To: root@deskone.daleco.biz Subject: Cron /sbin/ping -t2 yahoo.com > /dev/null 2>&1 X-Cron-Env: X-Cron-Env: X-Cron-Env: X-Cron-Env: X-Cron-Env: Alarm clock ********************************************** ;-) Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 28 21:06:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7F416A4CE for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:06:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13403.mail.yahoo.com (web13403.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A94F43FA3 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:06:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20031029050650.22164.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.91.194.144] by web13403.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:06:50 PST Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:06:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Fwd: Open Watcom license issues X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 05:06:53 -0000 Hi; This was posted today (on a slightly different form) on the Openwatcom newsgroups. I thought some people might like to know. Also... NO, they are not considering the BSDL and please keep me off any licensing bikeshed that might start here :). __________________ Hi All, I have good news on the Open Watcom license issues. We had a conference call with Sybase this afternoon to discuss the license issues, and Sybase is considering taking the suggestion of Bart Oldeman and incorporating the changes that Apple made in their APL 2.0 license for the Open Watcom Public License 2.0. We are also looking specifically at this issues of runtime library redistribution, and more importantly proprietry programs linked against the runtime library. If necessary Sybase will consider allowing the runtime library binaries, and binary code linked with the runtime library, to be licensed under a different license. The license would be more like the runtime library license you find with any regular commercial compiler such as Visual C++ or Borland C++. To that end however we are also considering whether a few modifications to the Open Watcom license 2.0 would alleviate the need for for a separate runtime library license. If there are specific areas of the the proposed 2.0 license you feel conflict with the needs of commercial developers, please let me know so we can discuss this with Sybase. More importantly if you have suggestions for how to make the license better, let me know also. For reference, here is a PDF copy of the proposed Sybase V2.0 license, along with a redline marked version so you can see the changes from the V1.0 license: http://www.openwatcom.org/ftp/license-2.pdf http://www.openwatcom.org/ftp/license-2-redline.pdf -- Thanks! -- Kendall Bennett Chief Executive Officer SciTech Software, Inc. Phone: (530) 894 8400 http://www.scitechsoft.com ~ SciTech SNAP - The future of device driver technology! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 29 10:25:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B6816A4CE for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:25:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta2.adelphia.net (mta2.adelphia.net [68.168.78.178]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA36E43FCB for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:25:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta2.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031029182559.XPRA17912.mta2.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:25:59 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA00634.6000002@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:25:56 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: How much better are 64 but platforms X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:25:57 -0000 Hey, I've never used FreeBSD on a 64 bit platform, and with a recent project I've got a client asking me, "How much faster would this run if we put it on an Itanium." So, in the future, I'll probably be getting a 64 bit machine to try this out on. But it got me thinking, what should I _expect_ to see in improvement? This application is mostly comparing strings, there are no 64 bit integers or floats to be obvious bottlenecks on a 32 bit platform, so (lacking actual experience) how much can I expect the application to speed up if I move it to a 64 bit platform? I understand that nobody can answer this question exactly, but I'm curious to hear people's experiences. I mean, if you just took FreeBSD (for example) by itself and moved it from 32 - 64 bit, how much faster is it (assuming the same mhz processor, if possible). How about PostgreSQL (which is the database server we're using). In general, how much faster is C compiled on a 64 bit platform? Basically, all this app does is pull a crapload of database records into RAM, do a whole bunch of string comparisons, generate some percentages, and write significant results back to another database table. Should I expect 64 bit to be a big improvement? Any thoughts or experience would be welcome. Thanks in advance. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 29 14:25:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D04E16A4CE for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:25:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [216.152.64.131]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2944D43FDD for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:25:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however ([206.171.168.138]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:21:34 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Bill Moran" Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:24:58 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3FA00634.6000002@potentialtech.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 cc: "Chat@Freebsd. Org" Subject: RE: How much better are 64 but platforms X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:25:06 -0000 > I've never used FreeBSD on a 64 bit platform, and with a recent > project I've got > a client asking me, "How much faster would this run if we put it > on an Itanium." > > So, in the future, I'll probably be getting a 64 bit machine to > try this out on. > > But it got me thinking, what should I _expect_ to see in > improvement? This > application is mostly comparing strings, there are no 64 bit > integers or floats > to be obvious bottlenecks on a 32 bit platform, so (lacking > actual experience) > how much can I expect the application to speed up if I move it to a 64 bit > platform? Applications that primarily manipulate strings are not faster on 64-bit platforms and, in some cases, run more slowly. We suspect this is because, in relative terms, single byte accesses are more expensive. Applications that manipulate small integers (that fit in 32-bits) generally run at about the same speed. We do see slight slowdowns simply because of extra memory bandwidth being used due to 64-bits values taking twice as much space on the bus as 32. Applications that deal with large numbers (like cryptography) or bulk data (like compression) tend to get a boost. Database applications generally do get a performance boost because of the better ability to deal with large amounts of memory. In previous steps, 8-bit to 16-bit and 16-bit to 32-bit, quantities that previously had to be manipulated as multiple units could now be handled as a single unit. Most counters and integers exceed 8-bits, to moving to 16-bits halved the work for almost anything. Still, many such things didn't fit in 16-bits, so 32-bits halved the work for many things. However, almost everything fits in 32-bits. So 64-bits either gets no benefit for most things or just results in dragging extra bytes across the memory bus, which doesn't get any faster. However, we'll all need to smoothly handle more than 4Gb of memory real soon now. Memory mapping an 8Gb database may speed things up as well. It's too early for me to tell about these kinds of things yet. DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 29 15:56:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6687F16A4CE for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta4.adelphia.net (mta4.adelphia.net [68.168.78.184]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF7243F75 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:56:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta4.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031029235655.YOVL16324.mta4.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:56:55 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA053B3.20708@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:56:35 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: "Chat@Freebsd. Org" Subject: Re: How much better are 64 but platforms X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:56:56 -0000 David Schwartz wrote: >>I've never used FreeBSD on a 64 bit platform, and with a recent >>project I've got >>a client asking me, "How much faster would this run if we put it >>on an Itanium." >> >>So, in the future, I'll probably be getting a 64 bit machine to >>try this out on. >> >>But it got me thinking, what should I _expect_ to see in >>improvement? This >>application is mostly comparing strings, there are no 64 bit >>integers or floats >>to be obvious bottlenecks on a 32 bit platform, so (lacking >>actual experience) >>how much can I expect the application to speed up if I move it to a 64 bit >>platform? > > Applications that primarily manipulate strings are not faster on 64-bit > platforms and, in some cases, run more slowly. We suspect this is because, > in relative terms, single byte accesses are more expensive. I was wondering about that, specifically. I guess it depends on how the compiler does things. If it could do strcmp() 64 bits (8 bytes) at a time, it could probably be faster, but I don't know how feasable that is with regard to string operations. Perhaps there's a way to optimize my code by casting strings as 64 bit integers and comparing them. Hopefully I'll get a chance to try that theory out. Of course, strings longer than 8 bytes will have to be compared 8 bytes at a time, but in this particular case, the strings should never be that long anyway. Hmmm ... > Applications that manipulate small integers (that fit in 32-bits) generally > run at about the same speed. We do see slight slowdowns simply because of > extra memory bandwidth being used due to 64-bits values taking twice as much > space on the bus as 32. Applications that deal with large numbers (like > cryptography) or bulk data (like compression) tend to get a boost. Database > applications generally do get a performance boost because of the better > ability to deal with large amounts of memory. Well ... I seriously doubt that my percentage calculating code would benefit at all then. > In previous steps, 8-bit to 16-bit and 16-bit to 32-bit, quantities that > previously had to be manipulated as multiple units could now be handled as a > single unit. Most counters and integers exceed 8-bits, to moving to 16-bits > halved the work for almost anything. Still, many such things didn't fit in > 16-bits, so 32-bits halved the work for many things. However, almost > everything fits in 32-bits. So 64-bits either gets no benefit for most > things or just results in dragging extra bytes across the memory bus, which > doesn't get any faster. Now that you've got me thinking of it, metaphones shouldn't ever be any longer than 4 bytes anyway, so (as it stands now) I could cast them as integers and compare the ints instead of using strcmp(), which should be faster. Still doesn't demonstrate any need for a 64 bit system, though. > However, we'll all need to smoothly handle more than 4Gb of memory real > soon now. Memory mapping an 8Gb database may speed things up as well. It's > too early for me to tell about these kinds of things yet. Well, that's likely as well. Thanks for the reply, David. I appreciate the input. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 29 16:13:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37CC016A4CE for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-234.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7207943FF7 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:13:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425BF66B9B; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:13:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1424C885; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:13:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:13:10 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20031030001309.GA19454@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <3FA00634.6000002@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FA00634.6000002@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How much better are 64 but platforms X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:13:11 -0000 --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 29, 2003 at 01:25:56PM -0500, Bill Moran wrote: > I've got > a client asking me, "How much faster would this run if we put it on an=20 > Itanium." I'd recommend amd64 over itanic..the latter is a vastly complicated processor to support, and gcc apparently does not produce very good code for it. Kris --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/oFeVWry0BWjoQKURAnXPAKDP/kdLgb56usQkoFl5NSNEKx4RzACg5gnB 0O0zjNobN32RST1yGOkVMXE= =EXlf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 30 04:02:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE0616A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA9D243FAF for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:02:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfim6.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.202.198] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AFBVs-0000hh-00; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:02:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA0FDB2.4B4C56F8@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 04:01:54 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <3FA00634.6000002@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4fb54558185c1f9affe2945bf4e2997de350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How much better are 64 but platforms X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:02:54 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > I mean, if you just took FreeBSD (for example) by > itself and moved it from 32 - 64 bit, how much faster is it (assuming the same > mhz processor, if possible). How about PostgreSQL (which is the database > server we're using). If your application is swap/mmory bound, then putting it on a 64 bit box and installing a grundle of RAM would make it faster (grundle>4G). > In general, how much faster is C compiled on a 64 bit platform? Slower. Half as much data transferred per cycle for things that used to be 32 bit but are now 64 bit (think instruction/data prefetch). > Basically, all > this app does is pull a crapload of database records into RAM, do a whole bunch > of string comparisons, generate some percentages, and write significant results > back to another database table. Should I expect 64 bit to be a big improvement? String compares could be made significantly faster for runs of 8 or more bytes. See the copin/copyout/bcopy/etc. code for examples of doing things in as-large-chunks-as-you-can-at-a-time. Note that use of 64 bit registers on 32 bit machines means dirtying FPU registers, which makes context switches slower; using 64 bit registers for this instead saves on context switch overhead. You will likely need to hand-code and hand-optimize routines to take advantagoe of this. On Itanium, this will be rather difficult to get your head around, because the CPU is so strange. Also, I'll repeat what someone else said: use an AMD64 instead of an Itanium: the compiler generates better code. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 30 06:14:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 646E016A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 708A243F75 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:14:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A25EEACD; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:14:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13AFAC6; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:14:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:14:50 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Bill Moran In-Reply-To: <3FA00634.6000002@potentialtech.com> Message-ID: <20031030055630.U20891-100000@moo.sysabend.org> X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How much better are 64 but platforms X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:14:54 -0000 On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Bill Moran wrote: > I understand that nobody can answer this question exactly, but I'm > curious to hear people's experiences. I mean, if you just took FreeBSD > (for example) by itself and moved it from 32 - 64 bit, how much faster > is it (assuming the same mhz processor, if possible). How about > PostgreSQL (which is the database server we're using). I spend my days running SGIs, and I've got old Indys and Indigo2s on up to current Origin systems here. For code that REALLY needs 64bit, everything obviously runs better on the 64bit clean platforms...but something we've found is that for things that don't need 64bit, compiling it on 64bit clean hardware runs it slower than the same code compiled on 32bit, and then run on 64bit clean systems (I use an Origin300 2xR14000/600mHz for tests). This is code compiled using the same compilers, on the same system, doing nothing more than changing Irix cc's options from: -DEFAULT:abi=n32:isa=mips4:proc=r10k to: -DEFAULT:abi=n32:isa=mips3:proc=r4k I have no idea if AMD/Intel systems will show this same sort of behaviour or not. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 30 08:19:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A48D16A4CF for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from shiva.jussieu.fr (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.129]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4802D43FDF for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:19:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from talon@lpthe.jussieu.fr) Received: from parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.1])h9UGJp4B086404 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:19:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from niobe (postfix@niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.41]) h9UGJkn12610 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:19:46 +0100 Received: by niobe (Postfix, from userid 2005) id DD4B62D468; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:19:45 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:19:45 +0100 From: Michel TALON To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031030161945.GA18001@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Antivirus: scanned by sophie at shiva.jussieu.fr Subject: Re: How much better are 64 but platforms X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:19:55 -0000 On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Bill Moran wrote: ... In the special case of the AMD64, which can run in 32 bits mode and 64 bits mode, choosing 64 bits mode not only means larger registers, possibly more traffic on the memory bus, potentially detrimental to performance, but also more registers, etc. This has the potential to give improved perfs, and indeed people speak of improvements of the order of 10 to 20% for "ordinary" programs, much more of course if you have enormous data sets requiring more than 4 gigs of memory to avoid swap. -- Michel TALON From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 30 09:31:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A1A116A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from heceta.db.net (heceta.db.net [66.11.169.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBF5E43F75 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:31:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from db@heceta.db.net) Received: from db by heceta.db.net with local (Exim 4.20) id 1AFGeL-00027H-FG; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:31:57 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:31:57 -0500 From: Diane Bruce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031030173157.GA8122@heceta.db.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1AFGeL-00027H-FG*GViygJ6WsJU* Subject: Ottawa (and area) BSD pizza meet X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:31:59 -0000 Hi, For Ottawa and area bsd folk (freebsd/netbsd/openbsd etc.) BSD meeting Colonade, Somerset St, pizza+beer, 6pm Thursday November 6th. Cya there.. - Diane From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 30 14:37:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2214316A4CF for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:37:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-234.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE3D43FCB for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:37:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A7C66C9E; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 28B8886B; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:37:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:37:08 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: William Palfreman Message-ID: <20031030223708.GA31228@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <3FA00634.6000002@potentialtech.com> <20031030001309.GA19454@rot13.obsecurity.org> <20031030220811.V367@aqua.lan.palfreman.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UugvWAfsgieZRqgk" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031030220811.V367@aqua.lan.palfreman.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: How much better are 64 but platforms X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:37:16 -0000 --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 10:25:29PM +0000, William Palfreman wrote: > On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Kris Kennaway wrote: >=20 > > I'd recommend amd64 over itanic..the latter is a vastly complicated > > processor to support, and gcc apparently does not produce very good > > code for it. >=20 > I was wondering how advanced the plans are to bring native AMD64 into > FreeBSD? Will it get into 5.x, or will be have to wait for 6-CURRENT? > I was thinking of buying one of these machines in the spring you see :-) FreeBSD 5.x has supported amd64 for months. Kris --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/oZKUWry0BWjoQKURAq9PAJ4vEfI62qz1FPqNTqK2QygMyyirxgCgzybj LkSQGRTlP+ykMZ7V6BrJuGQ= =fBiI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 30 15:28:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C42F16A4CE for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-234.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E7443F75 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:28:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E65A66C9E; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:28:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 12DC17AE; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:28:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:28:03 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: William Palfreman Message-ID: <20031030232802.GA31604@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <3FA00634.6000002@potentialtech.com> <20031030001309.GA19454@rot13.obsecurity.org> <20031030220811.V367@aqua.lan.palfreman.com> <20031030223708.GA31228@rot13.obsecurity.org> <20031030225442.K367@aqua.lan.palfreman.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031030225442.K367@aqua.lan.palfreman.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: How much better are 64 but platforms X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:28:04 -0000 --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 11:21:01PM +0000, William Palfreman wrote: > On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Kris Kennaway wrote: >=20 > > > I was wondering how advanced the plans are to bring native AMD64 into > > > FreeBSD? Will it get into 5.x, or will be have to wait for 6-CURRENT? > > > > FreeBSD 5.x has supported amd64 for months. >=20 > The release notes don't list it (ia64 they do), but AMD64 is listed in > the Tier 2 architectures along with PowerPC and ia64 (again). I suppose > I was wondering if AMD64 was going to be a Tier 1 release during the > 5-STABLE period? It's just it looks like there are going to be a > flood of these machines about quite soon :-) Probably. There's a lot of developer attention focused on the amd64 port (Peter Wemm uses it as his primary desktop, etc). It's already much more stable under load than FreeBSD/ia64, which has severe stability problems right now. Kris --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/oZ6CWry0BWjoQKURAmioAJkB+eTxyfb2Ti83FosXywqIiwQ3ZACeIr7+ VWVt4GqGFQhV5/P+6ltZ2zk= =bWTt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 09:10:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC5D16A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:10:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta1.adelphia.net (mta1.adelphia.net [68.168.78.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435F243FBF for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:10:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta1.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031031171246.QWRP16569.mta1.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:12:46 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:10:27 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:10:31 -0000 I recently started reading Eric Raymond's _The_Art_of_UNIX_Programming_ and it's gotten me taking another look at the way I am in general. Just to make sure I'm not totally insane ... When I am about to go somewhere in the car, I take a moment or two to plan out the optimal route to get to my various destinations. If there are multiple destinations, I usually do a little thinking to determine what order to visit these destinations in order to make optimal use of my time. This is usually modified by the desire to choose a route that includes the fewest number of left turns possible (since right turns are cheaper than left turns, time-wise, and complexity-wise - you can make a right turn on red for crying out loud) Other programmers drive this way as well, correct? The revelation is that I'm starting to understand that many non-programmer _don't_ generally evaluate their car trips like this. I mean, I know that most people will plan out a route when they're going on a long trip, but this planning procedure occurs _every_ time I get in the car, even if I'm just going to the convenience store for some chips (I have to evaluate the fact that there are two convenience stores equaldistance from here, one is a less complex journey, while the other has a better selection!) -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 09:20:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7515516A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:20:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu (msx.upmc.edu [128.147.18.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED7843FBD for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:20:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:19:59 -0500 Message-ID: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B41E839@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: 'Bill Moran' , chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:19:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:20:05 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Moran [mailto:wmoran@potentialtech.com] > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:10 PM > To: chat@freebsd.org > Subject: How do hackers drive? > > > I recently started reading Eric Raymond's > _The_Art_of_UNIX_Programming_ and > it's gotten me taking another look at the way I am in general. > > Just to make sure I'm not totally insane ... Well I'm not sure if this confirms your sanity, but I do that too. Not only for driving but also walking or taking a bus or even task such as cleaning the house. And yes, most people don't do this in my experience. Roderick Person Programmer personrp@ccbh.com http://www.ccbh.com "Outside the software community, people think that nerdWear is some sort of clique/fashion statement, whereas we know it's a ploy to get out of being invited to review meetings." Martin James, bpot From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 09:42:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A7F16A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from eth0.b.smtp.sonic.net (eth0.b.smtp.sonic.net [64.142.19.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E628343FBD for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:42:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah@intruder.kitchenlab.org) Received: from intruder.kitchenlab.org (adsl-64-142-31-106.sonic.net [64.142.31.106])h9VHgEuf016853 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:42:14 -0800 Received: from intruder.kitchenlab.org (bmah@localhost [127.0.0.1]) h9VHgE1j073145; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:42:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah@intruder.kitchenlab.org) Message-Id: <200310311742.h9VHgE1j073145@intruder.kitchenlab.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Bill Moran In-Reply-To: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> References: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> Comments: In-reply-to Bill Moran message dated "Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:10:27 -0500." From: "Bruce A. Mah" X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1053870343P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:42:13 -0800 Sender: bmah@intruder.kitchenlab.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: bmah@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:42:16 -0000 --==_Exmh_-1053870343P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If memory serves me right, Bill Moran wrote: > This is usually modified by the desire to choose a route that includes the > fewest number of left turns possible (since right turns are cheaper than > left turns, time-wise, and complexity-wise - you can make a right turn on > red for crying out loud) Not in .uk, .hk, or .au (or any other country where people drive on the left side of the road). :-) Bruce. --==_Exmh_-1053870343P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.5+ 20020506 iD8DBQE/op712MoxcVugUsMRAjr1AJ43D2QvzjF4T6CHUvLHA0dqx+UQeACg0laT Ky/EXngYdTMnaG5Be6wgxUM= =0Jwl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1053870343P-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 10:22:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6969C16A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-87.apple.com [17.250.248.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4FB143FD7 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:22:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin07-en2 [10.13.10.152]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h9VIMD9H025676; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.137] (bgp585760bgs.jdover01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.198.236]) (authenticated bits=0)h9VIMCpa026530; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:22:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> References: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-4--876983092; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <2431D460-0BCF-11D8-AA57-000393A335A2@mac.com> From: Lawrence Sica Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:22:09 -0500 To: Bill Moran X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:22:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail-4--876983092 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Oct 31, 2003, at 12:10 PM, Bill Moran wrote: > I recently started reading Eric Raymond's > _The_Art_of_UNIX_Programming_ and > it's gotten me taking another look at the way I am in general. > > Just to make sure I'm not totally insane ... > Well that is debatable ;) > When I am about to go somewhere in the car, I take a moment or two to > plan out the optimal route to get to my various destinations. If > there are > multiple destinations, I usually do a little thinking to determine what > order to visit these destinations in order to make optimal use of my > time. > This is usually modified by the desire to choose a route that includes > the > fewest number of left turns possible (since right turns are cheaper > than > left turns, time-wise, and complexity-wise - you can make a right turn > on > red for crying out loud) > > Other programmers drive this way as well, correct? > I am a sys admin, and i tend to plan my routes, but its more intuitive for me. I just say ok i need to go to the seven eleven down that way and go. I don;t sit there and think every turn through i just go. > The revelation is that I'm starting to understand that many > non-programmer > _don't_ generally evaluate their car trips like this. I mean, I know > that > most people will plan out a route when they're going on a long trip, > but > this planning procedure occurs _every_ time I get in the car, even if > I'm > just going to the convenience store for some chips (I have to evaluate > the > fact that there are two convenience stores equaldistance from here, > one is > a less complex journey, while the other has a better selection!) > I tend to go to the one i just like better, distance is less of a factor in some cases for me. --Larry --Apple-Mail-4--876983092-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 10:25:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD3E16A4CE; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:25:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [68.168.78.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6CE943F93; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031031182548.HMGL24277.mta11.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:25:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA2A928.9050906@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:25:44 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bmah@freebsd.org References: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> <200310311742.h9VHgE1j073145@intruder.kitchenlab.org> In-Reply-To: <200310311742.h9VHgE1j073145@intruder.kitchenlab.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:25:45 -0000 Bruce A. Mah wrote: > If memory serves me right, Bill Moran wrote: > >>This is usually modified by the desire to choose a route that includes the >>fewest number of left turns possible (since right turns are cheaper than >>left turns, time-wise, and complexity-wise - you can make a right turn on >>red for crying out loud) > > Not in .uk, .hk, or .au (or any other country where people drive on the > left side of the road). :-) Damn ... I guess that means I have to work on i18n support! -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 10:42:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9191D16A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:42:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DBCE43F85 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:42:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from daleco.biz ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:44:45 -0600 Message-ID: <3FA2ACE7.7040600@daleco.biz> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:41:43 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030920 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> In-Reply-To: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Oct 2003 18:44:45.0625 (UTC) FILETIME=[0DE6AA90:01C39FDF] cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:42:07 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > I recently started reading Eric Raymond's > _The_Art_of_UNIX_Programming_ and > it's gotten me taking another look at the way I am in general. > > Just to make sure I'm not totally insane ... > > When I am about to go somewhere in the car, I take a moment or two to > plan out the optimal route to get to my various destinations. If > there are > multiple destinations, I usually do a little thinking to determine what > order to visit these destinations in order to make optimal use of my > time. > This is usually modified by the desire to choose a route that includes > the > fewest number of left turns possible (since right turns are cheaper than > left turns, time-wise, and complexity-wise - you can make a right turn on > red for crying out loud) > > Other programmers drive this way as well, correct? > I call myself a 'consultant' ... the gist of this: I'll try every route and might get there next Thursday :D Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 11:08:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F5216A4CE; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E1543FBF; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:08:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) h9VJ8mt1013763; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:08:48 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h9VJ8mmA013761; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:08:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:08:47 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Bruce A. Mah" Message-ID: <20031031190847.GA13529@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 19:08:53 -0000 Bruce A. Mah wrote: > > This is usually modified by the desire to choose a route that includes the > > fewest number of left turns possible (since right turns are cheaper than > > left turns, time-wise, and complexity-wise - you can make a right turn on > > red for crying out loud) > > Not in .uk, .hk, or .au (or any other country where people drive on the > left side of the road). :-) And not in New York either, even though people drive on the right (also applies to many places in Europe, I think) I do plan out my trips, including short walks to the water fountain. But I probably don't calculate in detail: I tend to take the nearest turn each way, so in a situation like this --------W-- | | | | | | --O-------- to go from office (O) to water (W) and back, I do a clockwise circuit rather than judge which route is shorter and retrace the same route back Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 14:45:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C49016A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (zoot.blarg.net [206.124.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1A7643F75 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:45:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos (dsl-129-176.sea.blarg.net [206.124.129.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F10E34534 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:45:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by kosmos (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:45:29 -0800 From: "kosmos" Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:45:29 -0800 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031031224529.GA608@dsl-129-176.sea.blarg.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 22:45:47 -0000 >I recently started reading Eric Raymond's _The_Art_of_UNIX_Programming_ and >it's gotten me taking another look at the way I am in general. >Other programmers drive this way as well, correct? You have an argument. Every carload of programmers I have ever been with (particularly C-programmers) can agree on where to go, but it's an issue on the specific route to get there. Usually the dominant programmer wins, and the driver loses. I am in professional training change, Journalism->Programming (a hard, long, math catchup), and if the objective is a 5-minute trip to the store, I find myself meandering aimlessly though the countryside, miles away, looking at the cows and trees. I am of course _thinking_ about math and C++ projects, but that's probably not a good sign. >The revelation is that I'm starting to understand that many non-programmer >_don't_ generally evaluate their car trips like this. Just out of curiosity, how do you think C compares to C++? Or what do you think of OO-languages in general? -- Allan Bowhill Very few profundities can be expressed in less than 80 characters. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 16:44:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A64816A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:44:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta6.adelphia.net (mta6.adelphia.net [68.168.78.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C3D43FD7 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:44:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta6.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031101004442.WFXN18834.mta6.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 19:44:42 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA301F6.2010208@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 19:44:38 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: kosmos References: <20031031223405.GA534@dsl-129-176.sea.blarg.net> In-Reply-To: <20031031223405.GA534@dsl-129-176.sea.blarg.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 00:44:41 -0000 kosmos wrote: >>I recently started reading Eric Raymond's _The_Art_of_UNIX_Programming_ and >>it's gotten me taking another look at the way I am in general. > >>Other programmers drive this way as well, correct? > > You have an argument. Every carload of programmers I have ever been with > (particularly C-programmers) can agree on where to go, but it's an issue > on the specific route to get there. Usually the dominant programmer wins, > and the driver loses. > > I am in professional training change, Journalism->Programming (a hard, > long, math catchup), and if the objective is a 5-minute trip to the > store, I find myself meandering aimlessly though the countryside, miles away, > looking at the cows and trees. > > I am of course _thinking_ about math and C++ projects, but that's probably > not a good sign. I only have this problem when the destination is so well know that I've long since established the optimal way to get there. >>The revelation is that I'm starting to understand that many non-programmer >>_don't_ generally evaluate their car trips like this. > > Just out of curiosity, how do you think C compares to C++? Or what do you > think of OO-languages in general? I've always had a uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach that C++ and other OO languages were more complicated than they needed to be. The book by Raymond that I'm reading seems to agree with this idea and is making me a little more confident about expressing it. On the flip side, I find the way objects and classes control namespace pollution to be a wonderful thing ... so I'm not totally against OO programming. I'm not 100% sure where I feel it fits in overall, but Raymond seems to think that it has a special use for special case applications, such as developing GUIs. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 17:13:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9659416A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from www6.web2010.com (www6.web2010.com [216.157.5.254]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC82943FBF for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:13:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MLandman@face2interface.com) Received: from delliver.face2interface.com (dialup-wash-129-203.thebiz.net [64.30.129.203] (may be forged)) by www6.web2010.com (8.12.10/8.9.0) with ESMTP id hA11DIg0011365 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:13:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.0.20031031200457.05471108@pop.face2interface.com> X-Sender: face@pop.face2interface.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:13:20 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Marty Landman In-Reply-To: <3FA301F6.2010208@potentialtech.com> References: <20031031223405.GA534@dsl-129-176.sea.blarg.net> <3FA301F6.2010208@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 01:13:27 -0000 At 07:44 PM 10/31/2003, Bill Moran wrote: >I only have this problem when the destination is so well know that I've long >since established the optimal way to get there. One of the things I love about where I live is that there are back roads. The straightforward way to get from a to b when it's the highway is generally only the way I take when there's snow or ice, or a chance of flooding. Otherwise there are generally back ways, sometimes several different choices making it easy and interesting to change routes for variety. Saving a minute or two doesn't come close to the appeal in cutting the boredom off taking the same route each time. Then again we don't have what you'd call traffic jams, except if you're unlucky enough to be waiting for a train so the road's opened up again. :) >>>The revelation is that I'm starting to understand that many non-programmer >>>_don't_ generally evaluate their car trips like this. I had this sort of conversation with a search engine guy in Europe a few years ago. We both sort of thought the same way... optimizing our actions. Even though he wasn't a programmer. I guess just the fact of making your living working with computers is enough. Marty Landman Face 2 Interface Inc Sign On Required: Web membership software for your site Make a Website: http://face2interface.com/Home/Demo.shtml From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 17:22:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A46C116A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:22:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AF82A43F3F for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:22:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: (qmail 55938 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2003 01:22:31 -0000 Received: from alsager-adsl.stade.co.uk (HELO access2.hanley.stade.co.uk) (81.6.222.119) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with SMTP; 1 Nov 2003 01:22:31 -0000 Received: from titus.hanley.stade.co.uk (titus [192.168.1.5]) hA11MSbY030901; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 01:22:28 GMT (envelope-from aw1@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk) Received: from titus.hanley.stade.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) hA11MGbW036455; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 01:22:16 GMT (envelope-from aw1@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost)hA11M8Cc036454; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 01:22:08 GMT (envelope-from aw1) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 01:22:08 +0000 From: Adrian Wontroba To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20031101012208.B35870@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Adrian Wontroba , Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20031031223405.GA534@dsl-129-176.sea.blarg.net> <3FA301F6.2010208@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3FA301F6.2010208@potentialtech.com>; from wmoran@potentialtech.com on Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 07:44:38PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.9-PRERELEASE Organization: Yes, I was in one once. cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 01:22:36 -0000 On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 07:44:38PM -0500, Bill Moran wrote: > I've always had a uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach that C++ > and other OO languages were more complicated than they needed to be. Have a look at this (Spoof C++ Interview with Bjarne Stroustrup) http://www.dafydd.net/fun/cxxinterview.html It's quite old now, but still funny. As an ex C and nowadays mainly perl programmer I've some sympathy with the spoof's thrust. -- Adrian Wontroba From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 18:08:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E7216A4CE for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:08:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta7.adelphia.net (mta7.adelphia.net [68.168.78.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D26F43F93 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:08:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta7.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031101020807.NEGJ29257.mta7.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:08:07 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA31583.1010101@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:08:03 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aw1@stade.co.uk References: <20031031223405.GA534@dsl-129-176.sea.blarg.net> <3FA301F6.2010208@potentialtech.com> <20031101012208.B35870@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20031101012208.B35870@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 02:08:05 -0000 Adrian Wontroba wrote: > On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 07:44:38PM -0500, Bill Moran wrote: > >>I've always had a uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach that C++ >>and other OO languages were more complicated than they needed to be. > > > Have a look at this (Spoof C++ Interview with Bjarne Stroustrup) > > http://www.dafydd.net/fun/cxxinterview.html > > It's quite old now, but still funny. > > As an ex C and nowadays mainly perl programmer I've some sympathy with > the spoof's thrust. That was pretty good. haha ... only serious. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 02:35:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2964D16A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 02:35:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F366343FBF for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 02:35:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) hA1AZ9Ro050314; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:35:10 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)hA1AZ8if050313; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:35:08 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])hA1AY44L032769; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:34:04 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200311011034.hA1AY44L032769@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Marty Landman In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:13:20 EST." <6.0.0.22.0.20031031200457.05471108@pop.face2interface.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 10:34:03 +0000 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 10:35:29 -0000 Marty Landman writes: > >>>The revelation is that I'm starting to understand that many non-programmer > >>>_don't_ generally evaluate their car trips like this. Driving is something I usually do by successive approximation. I usually have a pretty good idea about where I want to go, but traffic and other road problems are usually enough of a problem to make too much planning a waste of time for me. > I had this sort of conversation with a search engine guy in Europe a few > years ago. We both sort of thought the same way... optimizing our actions. > Even though he wasn't a programmer. I guess just the fact of making your > living working with computers is enough. I tend to plan what I need to do next with a sort of Gantt chart in my head. So if I go into the kitchen, I'll turn on the kettle in anticipation of wanting tea, before doing laundry chores. I tend to do that somewhat efficiently (and very conciously) ever since I learned how as a kid. I nevertheless am a rather untidy individual :-) M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 04:22:38 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF40416A4CE; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 04:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3634E43F85; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 04:22:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from digiflux.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by digiflux.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with SMTP id hA1CLIf5016614; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:21:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from 10.0.0.150 (SquirrelMail authenticated user olivas) by digiflux.org with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:21:19 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <1405.10.0.0.150.1067689279.squirrel@digiflux.org> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:21:19 +0100 (CET) From: olivas@digiflux.org To: warbsd@digiflux.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal cc: advocacy@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: WarBSD 0.2.1 just released X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:22:38 -0000 I've just uploaded another update of WarBSD (0.2.1) to the warbsd.eurisko.ws site. This release adds the AP-Config 1.3.1 port and miniperl (Perl 5.8.0). I also decided to add the "top" utility from the FreeBSD source tree. Other than that, nothing else has changed. I hope people find this release useful. :) I think now is a good time to go thru and update the build scripts before releasing another version. :) -Stacy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 04:36:33 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 561BB16A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 04:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C5F43FBD for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 04:36:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.166] helo=localhost) by tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AFuzX-0003Fs-H8 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:36:31 +0000 Received: from rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.165]) by localhost (scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 12336-04 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 12:36:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.161.253]) by rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AFuzX-0003Fp-3m for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:36:31 +0000 Received: (qmail 8674 invoked by uid 0); 1 Nov 2003 12:36:31 -0000 Received: from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk by gateway by uid 71 with qmail-scanner-1.16 (sweep: 2.14/3.71. spamassassin: 2.53. Clear:. Processed in 1.38758 secs); 01 Nov 2003 12:36:31 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk via gateway X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.16 (Clear:. Processed in 1.38758 secs) Received: from dhcp1131.wadham.ox.ac.uk (HELO piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (163.1.161.131) by gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk with SMTP; 1 Nov 2003 12:36:29 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20031101122917.03141b78@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:36:27 +0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Colin Percival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: FreeBSD-related-announcements list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:36:33 -0000 Just a wild idea here: It seems to me that there is a need for an announcements list for items related to, but not part of, the FreeBSD project. Things like portupgrade, FreeBSD Update, freshports, and various BSDs based on FreeBSD (DragonFly, war, pico, mini, freesbie...) are all likely to be of interest to many FreeBSD users, but there isn't really any logical mailing list for announcements from such projects. Does anyone else feel this need? Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 05:44:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0C216A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 05:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from www6.web2010.com (www6.web2010.com [216.157.5.254]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C97C43F3F for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 05:44:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MLandman@face2interface.com) Received: from delliver.face2interface.com (dialup-wash-129-203.thebiz.net [64.30.129.203] (may be forged)) by www6.web2010.com (8.12.10/8.9.0) with ESMTP id hA1Di2g0000188; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 08:44:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.0.20031101082557.01b6ae10@pop.face2interface.com> X-Sender: face@pop.face2interface.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:44:05 -0500 To: Mark Murray From: Marty Landman In-Reply-To: <200311011034.hA1AY44L032769@grimreaper.grondar.org> References: <200311011034.hA1AY44L032769@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:44:17 -0000 At 05:34 AM 11/1/2003, Mark Murray wrote: >I tend to plan what I need to do next with a sort of Gantt chart in my >head. So if I go into the kitchen, I'll turn on the kettle in anticipation >of wanting tea, before doing laundry chores. I tend to do that somewhat >efficiently (and very conciously) ever since I learned how as a kid. Guess I do things the same way only didn't know there was a name for it. It's good to plan things out enough to fit more things in than less so long as (personally) I leave myself room for whatever comes up that I may want to do instead. >I nevertheless am a rather untidy individual :-) Having kids creates enough innate untidiness that w/o my wife and my steady efforts the place would be a total disaster in very short order. **btw - I've tried a few times to rejoin the freebsd-questions list w/o success. Is/was there a problem with that particular list recently? I know this is off topic for a chat list (I guess) but I'd like to install FreeBSD on one of my office network boxes and downloaded the ISO from the site -- on my dial up no less -- then burned it onto a cd but can't get any of my boxes to boot from it; seems like I messed up somehow, maybe didn't burn the cd properly? Marty Landman Face 2 Interface Inc Sign On Required: Web membership software for your site Make a Website: http://face2interface.com/Home/Demo.shtml From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 09:59:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA6E616A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 09:59:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfenm.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 01D2D43F3F for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 09:59:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 2126 invoked by uid 1002); 1 Nov 2003 17:59:42 -0000 Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 12:59:42 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20031101175942.GA2082@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Bill Moran , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FA301F6.2010208@potentialtech.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:59:42 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > I've always had a uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach that C++ > and other OO languages were more complicated than they needed to be. I could never get figure out C++, the syntax was too complex for me, maybe I never approached it the right way. (Same problem with perl.) On the other hand, a few months ago I tried out python and it was love at first sight. Initially I was writing stuff in a procedural way but I'm beginning to grok OO ideas now and it seems to all just make sense. I wish there was a good compiler for it though, speed is important in a lot of the things I do. Subsequently, I also dabbled in lisp a bit, does anyone use it these days for serious new projects (as opposed to emacs/maxima/other ancient stuff)? Quoted on http://www.smalltalk.org : "I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind." - Alan Kay - Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 12:54:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25D9B16A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 12:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2159343F3F for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 12:54:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gp@comcast.net) Received: from bishop.my.domain (h004005b2f1be.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.62.113.60]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003110120541901100ekop3e>; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 20:54:19 +0000 Received: from bishop.my.domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bishop.my.domain (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hA1KsEVx015263 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:54:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gp@bishop.my.domain) Received: (from gp@localhost) by bishop.my.domain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id hA1KsDSH015262 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:54:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gp) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:54:12 -0500 From: Greg Pavelcak To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031101205412.GA15226@bishop.my.domain> Mail-Followup-To: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3FA301F6.2010208@potentialtech.com> <20031101175942.GA2082@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031101175942.GA2082@online.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:54:22 -0000 On Sat, Nov 01, 2003 at 12:59:42PM -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Bill Moran wrote: > > I've always had a uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach that C++ > > and other OO languages were more complicated than they needed to be. > > I could never get figure out C++, the syntax was too complex for me, > maybe I never approached it the right way. (Same problem with perl.) > > On the other hand, a few months ago I tried out python and it was love > at first sight. Initially I was writing stuff in a procedural way but > I'm beginning to grok OO ideas now and it seems to all just make sense. > I wish there was a good compiler for it though, speed is important in a > lot of the things I do. Subsequently, I also dabbled in lisp a bit, > does anyone use it these days for serious new projects (as opposed to > emacs/maxima/other ancient stuff)? > > Quoted on http://www.smalltalk.org : > > "I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have > C++ in mind." - Alan Kay > > - Rahul I'm a non-programmer. Is it the OO languages that talk about "methods" when it looks like they're talking about something like functions, or is that something else? Choosing an appropriate technical term can be that difficult, but it's downright silly to choose a weird term for something that already has a perfectly good name. I can't stand to read the stuff. Every time I see "method" it pisses me off. Sorry, had to vent on that. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 13:10:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A5816A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net (razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 932D243FCB for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:10:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldtjc.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.246.108] helo=mindspring.com) by razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AG30d-00013a-00; Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:10:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA41FAC.664CC457@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:03:40 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ec05f0b8c2ffc1dd8cfaeb478c33d0e5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:10:14 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > When I am about to go somewhere in the car, I take a moment or two to > plan out the optimal route to get to my various destinations. I use destination proximity planning, so te last leg is provisional; for example, last night I went up to San Francisco, and there was a chemical spill that blocked the left two lanes of 280 North, near Belmont. Hearing about the spill on the radio, I was able to alter my route and avoid unreasonable delays. If I had planned every inch, then any deviation from the route would have been impossible, unless I already knew the area well (which is not always possible on things like long trips). > If there are multiple destinations, I usually do a little thinking > to determine what order to visit these destinations in order to make > optimal use of my time. Travelling salesman problem. People familiar with the problem (CS, graph theory, actual travelling salesmen, etc.) tend to do this; other people do not tend to perceive it as a problem. > This is usually modified by the desire to choose a route that includes the > fewest number of left turns possible (since right turns are cheaper than > left turns, time-wise, and complexity-wise - you can make a right turn on > red for crying out loud) > > Other programmers drive this way as well, correct? Not entirely. 8-). > The revelation is that I'm starting to understand that many non-programmer > _don't_ generally evaluate their car trips like this. I mean, I know that > most people will plan out a route when they're going on a long trip, but > this planning procedure occurs _every_ time I get in the car, even if I'm > just going to the convenience store for some chips (I have to evaluate the > fact that there are two convenience stores equaldistance from here, one is > a less complex journey, while the other has a better selection!) Most programmers do not drive this way. They compute the result once, and then use a cached copy for subsequent trips. 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 13:32:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A8416A4CF; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net (razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B031543FAF; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:32:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldtjc.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.246.108] helo=mindspring.com) by razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AG3I8-00049D-00; Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:28:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA423B7.D4F10C29@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:20:55 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20031031190847.GA13529@online.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a49ef92b07a35935435c313172da1f4c8b3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: "Bruce A. Mah" cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:32:03 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I do plan out my trips, including short walks to the water fountain. > But I probably don't calculate in detail: I tend to take the nearest > turn each way, so in a situation like this > > --------W-- > | | > | | > | | > --O-------- > > to go from office (O) to water (W) and back, I do a clockwise circuit > rather than judge which route is shorter and retrace the same route > back That's totally insane!!!! How do you retract the invisible string that you leave behind you everywhere you go, if you don't use an exact reverse route?!?! You do know you have a limited supply of invisible string on a spool inside of you, and once you run out of string, you simply fall over dead, apparently of natural causes, right??? }B^). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 13:37:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE5B16A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from tx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82DB843FCB for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:36:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from scan0.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.162] helo=localhost) by tx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AG3QY-0003rr-EY for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:36:58 +0000 Received: from rx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.161]) by localhost (scan0.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.162]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 14376-10 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:36:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.161.253]) by rx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AG3QY-0003ro-1A for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:36:58 +0000 Received: (qmail 14438 invoked by uid 0); 1 Nov 2003 21:36:58 -0000 Received: from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk by gateway by uid 71 with qmail-scanner-1.16 (sweep: 2.14/3.71. spamassassin: 2.53. Clear:. Processed in 1.43592 secs); 01 Nov 2003 21:36:58 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk via gateway X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.16 (Clear:. Processed in 1.43592 secs) Received: from dhcp1131.wadham.ox.ac.uk (HELO piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (163.1.161.131) by gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk with SMTP; 1 Nov 2003 21:36:56 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20031101212955.0325cba0@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:36:23 +0000 To: "Daniel M. Kurry" From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20031101203313.GF33954@over-yonder.net> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20031101122917.03141b78@popserver.sfu.ca> <5.0.2.1.1.20031101122917.03141b78@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD-related-announcements list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:37:01 -0000 At 14:33 01/11/2003 -0600, Daniel M. Kurry wrote: >Colin Percival said something like: > > Just a wild idea here: It seems to me that there is a need for an > > announcements list for items related to, but not part of, the FreeBSD > > project. > >What problem do you percieve with subscribing to list updates >individually? I'm not talking about regular announcements for well-established projects; I'm talking about new projects, or small projects which don't have their own mailing lists. You can't subscribe to a mailing list for a project until you know the project exists. To take FreeBSD Update as an example, I decided that -binup and -stable were probably the two most relevant lists, but there are lots of people who don't read those lists yet (later, after they heard about FreeBSD Update) said they wished they had seen the original announcement. There's a wide community of projects which are related to FreeBSD, but since these aren't part of The FreeBSD Project itself, they tend to be less well known than ideal. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 14:09:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63B8716A4D2 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:09:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net (razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87F943F93 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:09:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldtjc.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.246.108] helo=mindspring.com) by razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AG3vz-0003Jd-00; Sat, 01 Nov 2003 14:09:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA42D10.6D0D39A1@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 14:00:48 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray References: <200311011034.hA1AY44L032769@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a41b94e0c7cd9ea48072b79d42b28c0333387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Marty Landman cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 22:09:36 -0000 Mark Murray wrote: [ ... ] > [...] So if I go into the kitchen, I'll turn on the kettle in > anticipation of wanting tea, before doing laundry chores. [...] > > I nevertheless am a rather untidy individual :-) So you're saying that you don't get much tea? 8-) 8-) -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 14:41:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1EB16A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B927D43FE1 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:41:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B7579645; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 23:41:25 +0100 (MET) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 893369C22F; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 23:41:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 954BB9C0BE; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 23:41:21 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 7F16BB823; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 23:41:21 +0100 (CET) To: Greg Pavelcak References: <3FA301F6.2010208@potentialtech.com> <20031101175942.GA2082@online.fr> <20031101205412.GA15226@bishop.my.domain> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:41:21 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20031101205412.GA15226@bishop.my.domain> (Greg Pavelcak's message of "Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:54:12 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on dsa.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 22:41:31 -0000 Greg Pavelcak writes: > I'm a non-programmer. Is it the OO languages that talk about > "methods" when it looks like they're talking about something like > functions, or is that something else? > > Choosing an appropriate technical term can be that difficult, but > it's downright silly to choose a weird term for something that > already has a perfectly good name. I can't stand to read the stuff. > Every time I see "method" it pisses me off. "function" is not a perfectly good name. "procedure" or "subroutine" is better in most cases (except when the function actually is a function), and it is necessary to differentiate "methods" which operate on objects from "procedures" which don't. Formal type theory provides us with better and more precise terms than "method", but you'd probably like them even less (ever heard of "generators" and "observers"?) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 15:04:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D126016A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfenm.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9806243F75 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:04:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 2203 invoked by uid 1002); 1 Nov 2003 23:04:38 -0000 Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:04:38 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg Pavelcak Message-ID: <20031101230438.GA2023@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031101205412.GA15226@bishop.my.domain> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:04:37 -0000 Greg Pavelcak wrote: > I'm a non-programmer. Is it the OO languages that talk about > "methods" when it looks like they're talking about something like > functions, or is that something else? I'm largely a non-programmer too, but yes. > Choosing an appropriate technical term can be that difficult, but > it's downright silly to choose a weird term for something that > already has a perfectly good name. But you want to distinguish between "functions" that accept parameters, and "methods" that operate on the objects they're a part of. In python for example, a lot of string operations are implemented both as functions (part of the "string" module, retained largely for backward-compatibility reasons) and as methods of the string object itself. Thus, string.split("Hello world") is a function call that accepts "Hello world" as a parameter, while "Hello world".split() is a method call; the method is part of the "string" object. Of course, methods can accept parameters too, as in "Hello world".split('o') which will yield ['Hell', ' w', 'rld'] Ultimately I don't believe there is a difference in functionality but the object-oriented approach sometimes feels cleaner, though it took me a long time to see it. Eg, if you want to make sure a function only operates on the data it really should and not overwrite other data accidentally, OO can safeguard you better. C has pretty much no checks, you can overwrite any part of the memory owned by you and never realise it. Perhaps some real programmer wants to correct/expand the above... Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 15:44:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8458616A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta6.adelphia.net (mta6.adelphia.net [68.168.78.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C41743FB1 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 15:44:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta6.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031101234437.PNZA18834.mta6.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:44:37 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA44561.4070106@potentialtech.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:44:33 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert References: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> <3FA41FAC.664CC457@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3FA41FAC.664CC457@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 23:44:35 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: > Bill Moran wrote: > >>When I am about to go somewhere in the car, I take a moment or two to >>plan out the optimal route to get to my various destinations. > > I use destination proximity planning, so te last leg is provisional; > for example, last night I went up to San Francisco, and there was a > chemical spill that blocked the left two lanes of 280 North, near > Belmont. Hearing about the spill on the radio, I was able to alter > my route and avoid unreasonable delays. If I had planned every inch, > then any deviation from the route would have been impossible, unless > I already knew the area well (which is not always possible on things > like long trips). I suppose I oversimplified the process. findshortestroute(1) is run on the current destination list (including all known information about construction, etc) prior to the start of the trip, and the results are cached for drivecar(1) to use. (after all, I have to free up CPU cycles for importent processes like watchforhotchicksd(8) (which runs in the background all the time), and becarefulofradard(8), and the computationally-intensive singalongtotheradio(1), which is usually spawned by the takeacartrip(1) shell script that also starts drivecar(1)) Of course, if new information (such as an accident report) renders the cache stale, drivecar(1) will exec() findshortestroute(1) with the current location and the list of remaining locations to update the cache, which drivecar(1) can then use to alter its current processing, if needed. >>If there are multiple destinations, I usually do a little thinking >>to determine what order to visit these destinations in order to make >>optimal use of my time. > > Travelling salesman problem. People familiar with the problem (CS, > graph theory, actual travelling salesmen, etc.) tend to do this; > other people do not tend to perceive it as a problem. Hmmm ... I wonder if I could market the findshortestroute(1) program to these other folks. >>This is usually modified by the desire to choose a route that includes the >>fewest number of left turns possible (since right turns are cheaper than >>left turns, time-wise, and complexity-wise - you can make a right turn on >>red for crying out loud) >> >>Other programmers drive this way as well, correct? > > Not entirely. 8-). Oh ... >>The revelation is that I'm starting to understand that many non-programmer >>_don't_ generally evaluate their car trips like this. I mean, I know that >>most people will plan out a route when they're going on a long trip, but >>this planning procedure occurs _every_ time I get in the car, even if I'm >>just going to the convenience store for some chips (I have to evaluate the >>fact that there are two convenience stores equaldistance from here, one is >>a less complex journey, while the other has a better selection!) > > Most programmers do not drive this way. They compute the result > once, and then use a cached copy for subsequent trips. 8-) 8-). Well ... like I said elsewhere, findshortestroute(1) actually maintains a long-term cache of commonly visited destinations, and maintains this cache by using an elaborate event-driven expiration policy. I mean ... THAT's more like how you guys drive ... right? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 16:28:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B65E16A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 16:28:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7785843F93 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 16:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031101235513.BKMW20181.mta13.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:55:13 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA447E0.1080007@potentialtech.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:55:12 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marty Landman References: <200311011034.hA1AY44L032769@grimreaper.grondar.org> <6.0.0.22.0.20031101082557.01b6ae10@pop.face2interface.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.0.20031101082557.01b6ae10@pop.face2interface.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 00:28:28 -0000 Marty Landman wrote: > Having kids creates enough innate untidiness that w/o my wife and my > steady efforts the place would be a total disaster in very short order. Hah! Living with other people in general seems to cause this situation, although kids seem to be worse than adults. Some days I feel like I'm the only garbage collection process in the house. > **btw - I've tried a few times to rejoin the freebsd-questions list w/o > success. Is/was there a problem with that particular list recently? Don't know about this. > I know this is off topic for a chat list (I guess) but I'd like to > install FreeBSD on one of my office network boxes and downloaded the ISO > from the site -- on my dial up no less -- then burned it onto a cd but > can't get any of my boxes to boot from it; seems like I messed up > somehow, maybe didn't burn the cd properly? Most common mistake I see people making is to burn the ISO _file_ to the CD instead of burning the ISO _image_ to the CD. If the CD that won't work has only 1 file on it, then you made this mistake. This seems to happen because many CD burning softwares over-abstract the burning process from the user, making it more difficult to understand as a result. Also, the "burn ISO image" option is often hidden deep within complicated menu structures, or is named unintuitively. The fact that burning a CD is actually a sequential process (more like writing to a tape drive than to a hard drive) becomes opaque to the user, and unnecessary confusion results. (Now that the axe is nice and sharp, I'll put it away) If you seem to have made this mistake, look for the "burn CD image" or similarly named command or option in your burning software and try again. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 16:40:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFE016A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 16:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from carver.gumbysoft.com (carver.gumbysoft.com [66.220.23.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34F643F3F for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 16:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwhite@gumbysoft.com) Received: by carver.gumbysoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D61B872DA8; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 16:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carver.gumbysoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D389372DA3; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 16:40:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 16:40:12 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20031101122917.03141b78@popserver.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <20031101164004.Y70057@carver.gumbysoft.com> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20031101122917.03141b78@popserver.sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD-related-announcements list? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 00:40:13 -0000 On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Colin Percival wrote: > Just a wild idea here: It seems to me that there is a need for an > announcements list for items related to, but not part of, the FreeBSD > project. Things like portupgrade, FreeBSD Update, freshports, and various > BSDs based on FreeBSD (DragonFly, war, pico, mini, freesbie...) are all > likely to be of interest to many FreeBSD users, but there isn't really any > logical mailing list for announcements from such projects. > Does anyone else feel this need? daily.daemonnews.org -- Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@gumbysoft.com | www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 17:26:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3455016A4CF for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:26:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DCB43F85 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:26:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14566; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:26:00 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20031101182532.03cab0a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:25:59 -0700 To: Mark Murray , Marty Landman From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <200311011034.hA1AY44L032769@grimreaper.grondar.org> References: <200311011034.hA1AY44L032769@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 01:26:16 -0000 At 03:34 AM 11/1/2003, Mark Murray wrote: >Driving is something I usually do by successive approximation. Remind me never to park next to you. ;-) --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 17:36:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D088A16A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A80D43FCB for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:36:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14654; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:35:47 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20031101183511.03ca2320@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:35:45 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , Bill Moran From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <3FA41FAC.664CC457@mindspring.com> References: <3FA29783.8060804@potentialtech.com> <3FA41FAC.664CC457@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 01:36:03 -0000 At 02:03 PM 11/1/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >I use destination proximity planning, so te last leg is provisional; >for example, last night I went up to San Francisco, and there was a >chemical spill that blocked the left two lanes of 280 North, near >Belmont. Reminds me of my driving strategy: Avoid the San Francisco Bay Area if at all possible. ;-) --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 17:56:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC0516A4CF for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:56:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D0043F3F for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:56:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14800 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:56:02 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20031101185543.03ca3c68@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 18:56:00 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.org From: Brett Glass Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 01:56:07 -0000 At 02:20 PM 11/1/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >You do know you have a limited supply of invisible string on a >spool inside of you, and once you run out of string, you simply >fall over dead, apparently of natural causes, right??? Is that what's called being at the end of your rope? --Brett Glass | Ceci n'est pas une pipe --Daniel Case From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 19:32:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1853216A4CE; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 19:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ozlabs.org (ozlabs.org [203.10.76.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F2B43FA3; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 19:32:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (blackwater.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B283C2BD43; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:32:00 +1100 (EST) Received: from adelaide.lemis.com (unknown [203.117.90.121]) by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5ED511FC; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:01:57 +1030 (CST) Received: by adelaide.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3E94017FC4; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 10:28:43 +0800 (SGT) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 10:28:43 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20031102022843.GB3275@adelaide.lemis.com> References: <20031031190847.GA13529@online.fr> <3FA423B7.D4F10C29@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FA423B7.D4F10C29@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: "Bruce A. Mah" cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 03:32:08 -0000 On Saturday, 1 November 2003 at 13:20:55 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> I do plan out my trips, including short walks to the water fountain. >> But I probably don't calculate in detail: I tend to take the nearest >> turn each way, so in a situation like this >> >> --------W-- >> | | >> | | >> | | >> --O-------- >> >> to go from office (O) to water (W) and back, I do a clockwise circuit >> rather than judge which route is shorter and retrace the same route >> back > > That's totally insane!!!! > > How do you retract the invisible string that you leave behind > you everywhere you go, if you don't use an exact reverse route?!?! > > You do know you have a limited supply of invisible string on a > spool inside of you, and once you run out of string, you simply > fall over dead, apparently of natural causes, right??? Never heard of garbage collection? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 1 23:40:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9397E16A4CE for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 23:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A7B43F3F for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 23:40:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lsp3@gte.net) Received: from Pentium166 ([4.60.132.77]) by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.33 201-253-122-126-133-20030313) with ESMTP id <20031102074006.BMYM6745.out002.verizon.net@Pentium166>; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 01:40:06 -0600 Message-ID: <005a01c3a114$85a66bc0$0201a8c0@Pentium166> From: "Leland" To: "Mark Murray" , "Marty Landman" , "Brett Glass" References: <200311011034.hA1AY44L032769@grimreaper.grondar.org> <6.0.0.22.2.20031101182532.03cab0a0@localhost> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 23:39:58 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out002.verizon.net from [4.60.132.77] at Sun, 2 Nov 2003 01:40:06 -0600 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 07:40:08 -0000 Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? > At 03:34 AM 11/1/2003, Mark Murray wrote: > > >Driving is something I usually do by successive approximation. > > Remind me never to park next to you. ;-) > > --Brett Glass Was going to come up with something to top that but words fail me. :-) Leland