From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 13 00:40:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E9E16A4CE; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:40:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.72]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C9E43D39; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:40:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bsdfsse@optonline.net) Received: from [192.168.0.24] (ool-43532b7b.dyn.optonline.net [67.83.43.123]) by mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I5H0068IZ6SQQ@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:39:53 -0400 From: bsdfsse To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-emulation@freebsd.org Message-id: <416C7959.2030205@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) Subject: "...I would buy it." X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 00:40:05 -0000 Short Version: If there was an in-depth book on how to configure some of the various emulators on FreeBSD - I would buy it. Long Version: Recently, I asked for, and received - a lot of help getting VMWare to run on FreeBSD. This information was greatly appreciated by me, because it allowed me to take a big step towards running FreeBSD as my primary OS - and eliminating Windows as an OS I run natively. After reading through old messages on the FreeBSD-emulation, I became aware of FreeBSD's other OS emulation alternatives - free alternatives. Except for VMWare, I have not tried BOCHS, QEMU, WINE, DosBox, PearPC, or any of the other 164 ports in the Emulators collection. I would like to, I plan to, but I do not have the time right at this moment. It would be really nice to be able to develop an app using say the wxWidgets toolkit, and see what it looked like on various OS's. It wouldn't matter if it ran slow, it would only matter if it ran at all. For someone new to Unix in general, and FreeBSD in particular, configuring and optimizing the various emulators would be a somewhat daunting task. Even limiting myself to BOCHS, QEMU, and PearPC would take time to get client OS's working properly within FreeBSD. I recently purchased every FreeBSD book that is currently in print, minus the "FreeBSD in 24 Hours" book. I purchased the books as an investment in my divestment of Microsoft's hegemony. As I get time, I want to eventually learn FreeBSD as well I knew the DOS environment and programming of 15 years ago. If there was an in-depth book on how to configure some of the various emulators on FreeBSD - I would buy it. Even a PDF ebook. My first book on FreeBSD was the "Absolute BSD" PDF book. That gave me enough interest to buy the physical book. Soon after, I purchased "FreeBSD Unleashed", "BSD Hacks", "The Complete FreeBSD", "The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System", and "The FreeBSD Handbook". If there was a "Running BOCHS on FreeBSD", I would own that, too. I prefer "real" books when possible, but as a newby - accuracy and clarity are what is most important to me. One of the things I like about the spirit of FreeBSD, it the semi-commerciality. People can use it to make money if they like, and the core developers do not seem to care - they are going to continue making the OS that *they* want, regardless. I've read that the Windows 2000 TCP/IP fingerprint pointed to their stack being "borrowed" from FreeBSD. Apple apparently uses (or used) parts of FreeBSD in OS X. Whereas this would be heresy in the Linux camp, the FreeBSD crowd chugs along amicably. I like the fact that Greg Lehey can reference his book here, while I suspect in a Linux camp that would also be regarded as heresy. With FreeBSD's natural strengths as an OS, availability of numerous emulator ports, and it's innate semi-commerciality - I hope someone eventually produces a quality book focused on running other OS's on FreeBSD. I would pay up to about $300 for such a printed book: that's how much my Windows version of VMWare cost, and I paid the same for the Linux version of VMWare. I would expect most non-professional users to top out at about $150 (which I believe is the cost of Virtual PC). An ebook should be able to sell for $50. In other fields I am interested in, I have seen several examples of people writing ebooks about a relatively specialized topic - and self-producing an ebook. Often they have a website to collect feedback, post errata, and answer questions. One author said he was not getting rich, but he did earn a year's salary while doing something he loved in his part-time. Perhaps someone here can write such a book - or some other book related to a niche they have mastered. A small book on utilizing FreeBSD's Linux emulation would be valuable. Or an ebook on how to configure a machine to play OpenGL games using the nVidia driver. The freebsd-questions list would be a good source for ideas on what opportunities there are. With FreeBSD's legendary stability, flexibility, SCO's anti-Linux FUD, Google's decreasing efficiency, and an ever-growing *nix revival - I think there will a growing demand for FreeBSD-centric technical information. Thanks! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 13 12:54:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D7316A4CE for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:54:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.augustmail.com (www.augustmail.com [216.87.129.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F056443D1F for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:54:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from BStJohn@Serenity-Systems.com) Received: from serenity210 (serenity210.august.net[64.90.32.210]) (1634 bytes) by mail.augustmail.com (sender: ) id for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:54:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: From: "Bob St.John" To: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:54:03 -0500 (CDT) Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 2.00.1500 for OS/2 Warp 4.05 In-Reply-To: <20041013120148.38E5516A510@hub.freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: "I would buy it" .. VM Support for FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Bob St.John" List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:54:15 -0000 On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:01:48 +0000 (GMT), freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org wrote: >Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:39:53 -0400 >From: bsdfsse >Subject: "...I would buy it." >To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-emulation@freebsd.org >Message-ID: <416C7959.2030205@optonline.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > >Short Version: > >If there was an in-depth book on how to configure some of the various >emulators on FreeBSD - I would buy it. I agree with this comment. Please see http://www.SerenityVirtual.com. We support FreeBSD as a host and a guest. We are in beta test with 4.x, which we expect to release by the end of the year. Then will move to support 5.x Regards, Bob Bob St.John Dir, New Business Development Serenity Systems International a Managed Systems company 214 222-3414 (outside USA) 888 299-6483 (USA only) http://www.Serenity-Systems.com http://www.SerenityVirtual.com http://www.eComStation.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 14 14:37:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F2F16A4CE for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:37:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com (imo-m24.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B60843D31 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:37:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Sigmascape1@cs.com) Received: from Sigmascape1@cs.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id n.100.3982ccb (16098) for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.com (mow-d18.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.134]) by air-id11.mx.aol.com (v101_r1.6) with ESMTP id MAILINID112-3ee2416e8f2921e; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:37:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:37:29 -0400 From: Sigmascape1@cs.com To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <721C96A8.35A4F2A9.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 65.82.194.242 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: FreeBSD and the future X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:37:42 -0000 Hi, I am a periodic poster on this list. Over time, I am sure this question/issue has been brought up before, but I am very interested in alternatives to not only Windows but also Linux. Obviously, in terms of open source news and info, Linux gets a huge amount of press. I'd like to see FreeBSD compared against certain Linux distros, such as SuSE and Mandrake in terms of ease-of-use, installation complexity and application availability. I know there are tons of apps available to Linux users, but I also know that there are many FreeBSD ports of the same apps. In the past, my biggest issue with FreeBSD was the installation procedure. Not being a UNIX guru, I bailed on several attempts to get FreeBSD up and running. This was 2 years ago, I'm sure a lot of the issues have been straightened out. Thanks!!! MLF Sigmascape Interactive www.sigmascape.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 14 14:41:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B3216A4CE for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:41:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93FC843D3F for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:41:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from hartkiem2nnl7x ([206.116.24.146]) by priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.netSMTP <20041014144146.DHHJ12469.priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net@hartkiem2nnl7x>; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:41:46 -0600 Message-ID: <000801c4b1fb$ee0e2ab0$bb01a8c0@hartkiem2nnl7x> From: "Peter Kieser" To: References: <721C96A8.35A4F2A9.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:41:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="ISO-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and the future X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:41:50 -0000 /stand/sysinstall, IMO is easier then the fancy GUI's they have included with Redhat. Hasn't this discussion been broughten up time and time again? -- Peter Kieser Home: 604.338.9294 / Email: pfak@telus.net // "Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow." // ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 7:37 AM Subject: FreeBSD and the future > Hi, > > I am a periodic poster on this list. Over time, I am sure this > question/issue has been brought up before, but I am very interested in > alternatives to not only Windows but also Linux. Obviously, in terms of > open source news and info, Linux gets a huge amount of press. I'd like to > see FreeBSD compared against certain Linux distros, such as SuSE and > Mandrake in terms of ease-of-use, installation complexity and application > availability. I know there are tons of apps available to Linux users, but > I also know that there are many FreeBSD ports of the same apps. > > In the past, my biggest issue with FreeBSD was the installation procedure. > Not being a UNIX guru, I bailed on several attempts to get FreeBSD up and > running. This was 2 years ago, I'm sure a lot of the issues have been > straightened out. > > Thanks!!! > > MLF > > Sigmascape Interactive > www.sigmascape.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 14 14:57:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38DE816A4CE for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:57:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD45D43D2F for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:57:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Sigmascape1@cs.com) Received: from Sigmascape1@cs.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id y.30.6297957a (15886); Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.com (mow-d13.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.129]) by air-id08.mx.aol.com (v101_r1.6) with ESMTP id MAILINID81-3e0e416e93ca2aa; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:57:14 -0400 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:57:14 -0400 From: Sigmascape1@cs.com To: pfak@telus.net ("Peter Kieser") MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6567E5EF.2DED0AAD.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 65.82.194.242 X-AOL-Language: english Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and the future X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:57:32 -0000 Maybe I didn't make it clear enough. I am looking for direction in terms of comparing FreeBSD and mainstream Linux distros. I am not looking to debate the merits of text-based installation vs. gui-based. Where can I go to find out the differences? In my business, graphics, I use Macs and Windows machines. Linux is used for serving data and the like, but is beginning to open up some possibilities to me on the client side. Among other things, I need to know if I can turn someone loose on FreeBSD that is not overly computer literate... strictly word procesing, email and web surfing. Also, in terms of server use, how much different would it be to set up a FreeBSD server than setting up a SuSE Linux-based server. Just looking for some links and/or general data. MLF "Peter Kieser" wrote: >/stand/sysinstall, IMO is easier then the fancy GUI's they have included >with Redhat. > >Hasn't this discussion been broughten up time and time again? > >-- >Peter Kieser >Home: 604.338.9294 / Email: pfak@telus.net >// "Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow." // > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 7:37 AM >Subject: FreeBSD and the future > > >> Hi, >> >> I am a periodic poster on this list. Over time, I am sure this >> question/issue has been brought up before, but I am very interested in >> alternatives to not only Windows but also Linux. Obviously, in terms of >> open source news and info, Linux gets a huge amount of press. I'd like to >> see FreeBSD compared against certain Linux distros, such as SuSE and >> Mandrake in terms of ease-of-use, installation complexity and application >> availability. I know there are tons of apps available to Linux users, but >> I also know that there are many FreeBSD ports of the same apps. >> >> In the past, my biggest issue with FreeBSD was the installation procedure. >> Not being a UNIX guru, I bailed on several attempts to get FreeBSD up and >> running. This was 2 years ago, I'm sure a lot of the issues have been >> straightened out. >> >> Thanks!!! >> >> MLF >> >> Sigmascape Interactive >> www.sigmascape.com > > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 14 15:54:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E4D16A4CE for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:54:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F39A43D1F for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:54:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vkaul@ma.rr.com) Received: from gogobera.ma.rr.com (dhcp024-160-199-227.ma.rr.com [24.160.199.227])i9EFsVlv024307; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:56:15 -0500 To: Sigmascape1@cs.com, "\"Peter Kieser\"" References: <6567E5EF.2DED0AAD.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> From: "Vijay Kaul" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6567E5EF.2DED0AAD.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3869) X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and the future X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:54:35 -0000 On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:57:14 -0400, wrote: > Maybe I didn't make it clear enough. I am looking for direction in terms > of comparing FreeBSD and mainstream Linux distros. I am not looking to > debate the merits of text-based installation vs. gui-based. Where can I > go to find out the differences? From my (limited) experience, I'd say for comparing you've got three options. 1) The definitive solution is to download and try out each version. (Live CDs might be helpful there. A couple of projects exist for FBSD, here's one: http://www.freesbie.org/) That seems like it might be too intesive for what you want, though. 2) Read the documentation. The FBSD Handbook is here: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html Other projects will also have docs available online to varying degrees of completeness. Also, there's a degree of translation from docs to real life, buyer beware. 3) The least effort involves finding online reviews. These are almost always biased in some way, and are almost guaranteed to be missing some of the information you're looking for. However, they provide pre-digested information, which can be useful in a hurry. > In my business, graphics, I use Macs and Windows machines. Your experience with Macs (OS X?) may be helpful durring a transition to FreeBSD (more so than any linux flavor) depending on how much command line work you've done. > Linux is used for serving data and the like, but is beginning to open up > some possibilities to me on the client side. Among other things, I need > to know if I can turn someone loose on FreeBSD that is not overly > computer literate... strictly word procesing, email and web surfing. It depends on your users. If you set up FBSD with a desktop environment like KDE, along with desktop icons for your favorite graphical word proccessor, mail client, and browser, you will have an environment where your users can function...minimally. To keep them off of command line entirely, you may also want to give them a file browser. Unix systems are prone to giving a user lots of info. You may have to do some work to make sure that they are kept isolated from that info. (The non-computer-literate are apt to "freak out" and "freeze up" when presented with anything new. :( ) > Also, in terms of server use, how much different would it be to set up a > FreeBSD server than setting up a SuSE Linux-based server. This sounds like the first question, but now made specific. Specific is good. However, I don't know SuSE. Hopefully someone else does. G'luck to ya, vijay > > Just looking for some links and/or general data. > > MLF > > > "Peter Kieser" wrote: > >> /stand/sysinstall, IMO is easier then the fancy GUI's they have included >> with Redhat. >> >> Hasn't this discussion been broughten up time and time again? >> >> -- >> Peter Kieser >> Home: 604.338.9294 / Email: pfak@telus.net >> // "Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow." // >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 7:37 AM >> Subject: FreeBSD and the future >> >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I am a periodic poster on this list. Over time, I am sure this >>> question/issue has been brought up before, but I am very interested in >>> alternatives to not only Windows but also Linux. Obviously, in terms of >>> open source news and info, Linux gets a huge amount of press. I'd like >>> to >>> see FreeBSD compared against certain Linux distros, such as SuSE and >>> Mandrake in terms of ease-of-use, installation complexity and >>> application >>> availability. I know there are tons of apps available to Linux users, >>> but >>> I also know that there are many FreeBSD ports of the same apps. >>> >>> In the past, my biggest issue with FreeBSD was the installation >>> procedure. >>> Not being a UNIX guru, I bailed on several attempts to get FreeBSD up >>> and >>> running. This was 2 years ago, I'm sure a lot of the issues have been >>> straightened out. >>> >>> Thanks!!! >>> >>> MLF >>> >>> Sigmascape Interactive >>> www.sigmascape.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 14 17:16:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFFD16A4CE for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:16:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53EDE43D46 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:16:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:3552) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CI9D4-0003rw-4I; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:16:14 -0700 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:12:08 -0700 Message-ID: From: Johnson David To: "'Sigmascape1@cs.com'" Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:12:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD and the future X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:16:16 -0000 > From: Sigmascape1@cs.com [mailto:Sigmascape1@cs.com] > > Maybe I didn't make it clear enough. I am looking for > direction in terms of comparing FreeBSD and mainstream Linux > distros. I am not looking to debate the merits of text-based > installation vs. gui-based. Where can I go to find out the > differences? The answer is that the differences are much less important than what you want or need in an operating system. It's like comparing a Toyota Corolla to a Honda Civic. Their differences are insignificant compared to their similarities. The merits of text-based versus gui-based installation ARE relevant, because the user may want or need one or the other. > In my business, graphics, I use Macs and Windows machines. > Linux is used for serving data and the like, but is beginning > to open up some possibilities to me on the client side. Among > other things, I need to know if I can turn someone loose on > FreeBSD that is not overly computer literate... strictly word > procesing, email and web surfing. Also, in terms of server > use, how much different would it be to set up a FreeBSD > server than setting up a SuSE Linux-based server. If you have someone available to install and maintain FreeBSD, then it's perfectly suited to be a client desktop system. No doubt about it. Desktop wise, it's not much different from your typical Linux distro. Server wise, my personal opinion is that FreeBSD is superior. But you're question is about "setting up". So I assume you're not interested in the functionality and maintainability as in the initial installation. Am I correct? For someone with no experience, SuSE is probably going to be easier. But once you get experience, FreeBSD is going to quickly overtake it. But again, it depends on your wants and needs. If you have fifty identical servers to install onto, Solaris might be the way to go :-) But before deciding anything, try out all your options! Install FreeBSD to a spare machine and give it a week's test drive. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 16 16:21:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35ED216A4CE for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:21:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 898D643D49 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:21:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:24:44 -0500 Message-ID: <41714A82.7010902@daleco.biz> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:21:22 -0500 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040712 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sigmascape1@cs.com References: <6567E5EF.2DED0AAD.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> In-Reply-To: <6567E5EF.2DED0AAD.3F8EDD3A@cs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Oct 2004 16:24:44.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[A586C700:01C4B39C] cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and the future X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:21:26 -0000 Sigmascape1@cs.com wrote: >I need to know if I can turn someone loose on FreeBSD that is not overly >computer literate... strictly word procesing, email and web surfing. > > It is rather trivial for someone who has a good working knowledge of FreeBSD to create a working environment that would be easy for the "average Joe" to do just these three tasks. That is, setting it up is somewhat advanced; *using* it is not. My case in point is a "little old lady" story: A former client who now comes in to do my billing and assorted chores for 4 hours each week. I've given her a FreeBSD machine to use for email, www, and word processing. Using GNOME (and gdm for a graphical login), she browses and reads mail with Mozilla and uses TextMaker (www.softmaker.de) for word processing. Given that she wasn't a power user when she used Windows, I'd say there's very little difference between the two systems as far as she is concerned, other than the fact that running GNOME 2.8, I really should get a faster CPU and more RAM in that boxen. I purchased TextMaker at a good discount last November; it's a nice package, but I imagine she could be using AbiWord or some similar, free alternative without much difficulty in making the switch. A graphical login. A graphical "desktop" environment with a "cascading" start menu and desktop icons for launching applications. It's a standard that most people are relatively familiar with, even if they have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. To make up a statistic for the sake of added weight, probably more than 3/4's of the Microsoft users I know are in the same boat ... >Also, in terms of server use, how much different would it be to set up >a FreeBSD server than setting up a SuSE Linux-based server. > > > IMHO, FBSD is easier, but I've touched Linux once; and it was about five minutes. And then, I don't know the SUSE installer, but you'd be getting back to that "installer shortcoming" argument again. Have you read Matthew Fuller's "linux and BSD" rant? It's at over-yonder.net IIRC; a quick Google search should turn it up. Far from being the ravings of an angry maniac, there's some stuff to be learned there in regard to the similarities and differences between the "typical" LInux distro and FBSD. Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 16 17:58:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B39A516A4CE for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 17:58:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D17343D39 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 17:58:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1CIsoc-0002q8-00; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:58:02 -0700 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:58:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: FreeBSD training in Phoenix, Arizona in December X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 17:58:10 -0000 An important part of FreeBSD advocacy is providing training, free or paid. Does anyone know of any colleges or universities that teach FreeBSD admin or development skills? (I think Western Washington University uses NetBSD in an Unix development class.) Does anyone know of any free, non-cost, FreeBSD training? I know there are a variety of FreeBSD lectures for free but usually short, free, presentations don't have enough time to go into a lot of detail. (As for myself, I've had the great opportunity to give over six free lectures *introducing* BSD.) Are there any online classes (free or paid) for FreeBSD specific skills? Puget Sound Technology is teaching another FreeBSD system administration class in Phoenix, Arizona, USA. The hands-on course, to be held December 7 - 10, will cover the fundamental skills needed for FreeBSD system administration. The course topics include FreeBSD installation, using the ports collection, updating FreeBSD, custom kernel configurations, understanding the rc.d scripts, periodic tasks, and packet filtering. The class also covers standard Unix administration skills, such as cron, syslogging, inetd, user and group administration, and basic network configurations. Students will also learn the basics of DNS, SMTP, and Postfix and will setup their own DNS zones and Apache-based virtual websites. The course details are at http://www.pugetsoundtechnology.com/training/freebsd/ . And discounts are available. A separate Unix shell essentials crash course is being offered on December 6. Jeremy C. Reed BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 16 20:24:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9578816A4CE for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 20:24:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web60405.mail.yahoo.com (web60405.mail.yahoo.com [216.109.118.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B5A743D2D for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 20:24:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20041016202442.50914.qmail@web60405.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.229.136.152] by web60405.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:24:42 PDT Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:24:42 -0700 (PDT) From: twig les To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: FreeBSD training in Phoenix, Arizona in December X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 20:24:43 -0000 I know of a class in Mission Viejo, California at Saddleback College that uses RH as its base OS, but when I was in it I used FBSD for everything and the instructor not only did not mind, I think he preferred it but was too tight-lipped to say so. He did let slip (subtely) his displeasure at having to use RH. Not technically BSD training, *nix was taught at a level designed to let students flow from one flavor to another, with emphasis on vi, different shells, basic scripting (perl/shell/sed/awk), security, and generic installs and configs (./configure....config files...). All in all a very helpful class at almost no cost. http://www1.socccd.cc.ca.us/eservices/ClassDetail.asp?sectionID=22395&termid=20043 As a side note, can anyone post or link to a breakdown of costs for teaching a class? They all seem to cost around $1500+/week and I'm not sure why. No accusation here, I just can't imagine what costs that much, especially if the teacher volunteers or doesn't want much money. Do small conference rooms really cost that much? --- "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > An important part of FreeBSD advocacy is providing training, > free or paid. > > Does anyone know of any colleges or universities that teach > FreeBSD admin > or development skills? (I think Western Washington University > uses NetBSD > in an Unix development class.) > > Does anyone know of any free, non-cost, FreeBSD training? I > know there are > a variety of FreeBSD lectures for free but usually short, > free, > presentations don't have enough time to go into a lot of > detail. (As for > myself, I've had the great opportunity to give over six free > lectures > *introducing* BSD.) > > Are there any online classes (free or paid) for FreeBSD > specific skills? > > Puget Sound Technology is teaching another FreeBSD system > administration > class in Phoenix, Arizona, USA. The hands-on course, to be > held December 7 > - 10, will cover the fundamental skills needed for FreeBSD > system > administration. > > The course topics include FreeBSD installation, using the > ports > collection, updating FreeBSD, custom kernel configurations, > understanding the rc.d scripts, periodic tasks, and packet > filtering. > > The class also covers standard Unix administration skills, > such as > cron, syslogging, inetd, user and group administration, and > basic > network configurations. Students will also learn the basics of > DNS, > SMTP, and Postfix and will setup their own DNS zones and > Apache-based > virtual websites. > > The course details > are at http://www.pugetsoundtechnology.com/training/freebsd/ . > And > discounts are available. > > A separate Unix shell essentials crash course is being offered > on > December 6. > > > Jeremy C. Reed > > BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links > http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- With a few exceptions, secrecy is deeply incompatible with democracy and with science. --Carl Sagan http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 16 20:43:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC6D16A4D1 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 20:43:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F22543D41 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 20:43:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1CIvOM-0002zM-00; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:43:06 -0700 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:43:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: twig les In-Reply-To: <20041016202442.50914.qmail@web60405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD training in Phoenix, Arizona in December X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 20:43:10 -0000 On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, twig les wrote: > technically BSD training, *nix was taught at a level designed to > let students flow from one flavor to another, with emphasis on > vi, different shells, basic scripting (perl/shell/sed/awk), > security, and generic installs and configs > (./configure....config files...). All in all a very helpful > class at almost no cost. Definitely. Skills should be taught from a generic level. I often hear of SuSE or Debian or Red Hat admins who think they can't admin other Linux boxes! I rarely hear that of *BSD admins though. > As a side note, can anyone post or link to a breakdown of costs > for teaching a class? They all seem to cost around $1500+/week > and I'm not sure why. No accusation here, I just can't imagine > what costs that much, especially if the teacher volunteers or > doesn't want much money. Do small conference rooms really cost > that much? Well, I have organized over 35 workshops and classes. Some examples: - renting computer classroom/lab with projection in Seattle costs $800 per day. - renting a very small meeting room in hotels in Seattle costs around $150 to $450 per day. - renting overhead projection costs around $150 per day. If you choose to use a lab without any computers/etc, then you need to provide computers. Cheap workstations and monitors cost around $450 per student. (Of course, you could go used route.) Moving around computers (even laptops) and other equipment is very time consuming and troublesome. Having a company provide a computer lab with working networking and overhead projection (and extra computers) is definitely a stress- and time-saver. Add on to that any travel/accomodation expenses for instructor. If you don't pay the instructor, then you have to find a volunteer to give up 40 hours of planning, curriculum development and/or curriculum improvement. And then another 40+ hours for just the training. That is a lot of dedicated time in a short amount of time. (In my case, I can't volunteer 80 hours consecutively because I have 7 mouths to feed :) (That doesn't include the 40+ hours dedicated to marketing, discussions with students, follow-up feedback, etc.) I have also taught classes at colleges. College education is a lot cheaper -- but in most cases the classes are spread out over several weeks and even months. This may not be convenient for many students. Colleges (of course) already have the facilities and computers which are used for many purposes, so the cost-per-class is a lot less expensive. In most cases, schools don't pay instructors very much either when you have to consider planning and a lot of travel time. I have heard of a few user groups and individuals that have ran ongoing classes for free. But I think it is pretty rare -- and I think that the free classes are only a couple hours a week or month. You can find free places to teach non-hands-on lectures for a short amount of time, but for most people it is not a good learning method. > > The course details > > are at http://www.pugetsoundtechnology.com/training/freebsd/ . > > And > > discounts are available. Jeremy C. Reed BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 16 21:54:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714A116A4CE for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 21:54:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B6B43D2D for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 21:54:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jon.drews@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 79so74015rnk for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:54:27 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=o//3m7IWvmgkFX+6Ee2aPFJAm9L3Md9agZ6ok3Mt1+cF8LBwFnqnA5BZwevA4eQZPI6VnlWnw5pIgjQRPyNVss2Rvj4gFTO59h8GZWwaM38dH0sgrHcDdZx544DuQh4tdB3ALeqoo+J+CCl5I6nXVDcslJN+KbAQfSsqkZQSKC0 Received: by 10.38.74.76 with SMTP id w76mr719074rna; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.89.32 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8cb27cbf04101614544f16f78f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:54:27 -0600 From: Jon Drews To: "Jeremy C. Reed" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD training in Phoenix, Arizona in December X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Jon Drews List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 21:54:28 -0000 Hi Jeremy and others: Isn't there some way that this could be done over the internet? I mean we have the "talk" (man 1 talk) software. We can project X apps by ssh. Maybe audio could be sent by Ogg - Vorbis? Is it really necessary to be in a classroom? Couldn't the participants paste errors or portions of /etc files, they had questions about, in the talk window ? I would love to go to MarketBridge Technologies FreeBSD class, in Ottawa, but it's too far away (for right now). Kind regards, Jonathan On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:58:02 -0700 (PDT), Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > An important part of FreeBSD advocacy is providing training, free or paid.