From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 4 22:08:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56D016A4CE for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 22:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (mail.uninterruptible.net [64.146.146.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B25B643D39 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 22:08:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-185.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.4.185]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F3645001E; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 06:08:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 521F63352; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 06:08:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2634C6C; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 06:08:42 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 06:08:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: "Gary W. Swearingen" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Mailer: !/bin/sh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Gratuitious controversy isn't a good thing!!! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 06:08:49 -0000 On Fri, 2 Jan 2004, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > It's as much about the perquisites of developers as about PC-ness. The > peculiar tastes of some developers is tolerated as thanks for their work > or at least to help keep them happy. Plus, there can be a kind of > competition between them in who gets to put his own stamp on the > software, without adverse imact on important software. Nothing to be > sad about. In regards to all those complaining about political correctness in operating systems -- if it bothers them so much -- USE VMS! :-) -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR TGIFreeBSD IM: 'KrisBSD' "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!" This message brought to you by the US Department of Homeland Security From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 4 23:52:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DD2216A4CE; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 23:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from anvil.dls.net (anvil.dls.net [209.242.10.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F4343D1F; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 23:52:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from emailrob.com (216.145.235.28) by ice.dls.net (MX V5.3 AnFj) with ESMTP; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 01:52:38 -0600 Message-ID: <3FF93422.2050006@emailrob.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 01:53:38 -0800 From: rob_spellberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200401020525.i025PM2W004726@dungeon.home> <20040102053610.GP78263@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 07:52:59 -0000 i object. having read all of the messages so far posted, i choose to quote this one because greg is striving toward the right attitude. i've been listening to rush's show since i learned of it's existence in september of 1992. therefore, i think i'm in a position to opine [ of course, i could be wrong ]. [ for the record, most of my family are new_deal_democrats, originally arriving from the ukraine during 1921. my late father left in the mid-1960's. i transitioned away between 1972 and 1987 as i came to realize that socialism doesn't help the oppressed and downtrodden as is widely propagandized. it keeps the o&d in the state of being o&d for the benefit of the ruling class of the day, whomever they may be. don't just take my word for it, see 'the road to serfdom' by friedrich august von hayek. ] being human, he has his occasional off days, as do lefties like david letterman or bill maher. let's face it, al franken hasn't been funny since his famous 'weekend update' opinion piece about the 1980's being 'the me decade' because it was about "me --- al franken", maybe twenty years ago now. i'll have to look at the material in question to see if it's representative of his best stuff, i --am-- pleased that someone had the wisdom to include it, but it's important to remember that rush is a philosopher, not a comedian. in fact, imho, he's the best motivational speaker in recent memory; aficionadoes will recall, e. g., dan's bake sale, fort collins, 1994. his use of humor is generally to aid him in making a more important point. one of his most important points is this [ this theme has many variations ]: if there is something you want very badly, you will get it a lot sooner if you go out and get a job, earn the money and buy it for yourself, rather than by a] waiting for a politician seeking re_election to hand it to you in exchange for your vote, or b] asking mommy and/or daddy to buy it for you, or c] standing at the side of the road with a sign in your hands saying 'will work for food' when you know damn well you just want the money [ thanks to the late 'mick from the high mountains of new mexico' ]. i say keep both the left_wing --and-- the right_wing humor. let the individual be free to make the choice for themselves, even when it is 'obvious' to all 'reasonable' people that the individual in question is making the 'wrong' choice. the correct course of action is to solicit political humor of all kinds from everyone who cares to contribute and expand the database mightily. some of the stuff still in there i first saw at uic twenty years ago. it needs freshening. perhaps, the words to guide us are those of the young prince hal, as related by the bard himself: i'll so offend to make offense a skill, redeeming time when men think least i will. rob Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 2 January 2004 at 15:25:22 +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > >>I've finally had to edit the fortunes file to remove stuff that is so bad >>that I physically cringe whenever I see it. No matter how I try, I just >>can't see the funny side of it. Yes, it's in the "potentially obscene" >>section, alongside the funniest stuff in the fortunes database. But there >>are limits. >> >>Anyway, today I added a new patch to my list of essential FreeBSD fixes: >>I deleted everything by Rush Limbaugh. That guy just can't do humour. It >>doesn't work as satire, or even parody. It's just awful. >> >>Would anybody object if I commited this one? > > > I think the answer would have to be "yes". Though I personally agree > with you about its usefulness, the whole thing about the potentially > offensive fortunes is, of course, that they might offend. Somebody > else might like them. I don't think that anybody should play censor > here. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 07:03:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5001E16A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:03:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC4743D45 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:03:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smckay@internode.on.net) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp190-235.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net [150.101.190.235])i05F2sp5095822; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 01:32:54 +1030 (CST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.12.8p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i05F2qqG007611; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 01:02:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> To: rob_spellberg References: <200401020525.i025PM2W004726@dungeon.home> <20040102053610.GP78263@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3FF93422.2050006@emailrob.com> In-Reply-To: <3FF93422.2050006@emailrob.com> from rob_spellberg at "Mon, 05 Jan 2004 09:53:38 +0000" Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 01:02:52 +1000 From: Stephen McKay cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 15:03:03 -0000 On Monday, 5th January 2004, rob_spellberg wrote: >i object. Please learn the location of your shift key. It is essential for proper communication. >i've been listening to rush's show > since i learned of it's existence in september of 1992. >therefore, i think i'm in a position to opine [ of course, i could be wrong ]. I've got all I know about this guy from his entries in the FreeBSD fortune file. From this I conclude that he is some sort of woman hating warmonger who has trouble with accuracy, seeing as he writes that his statements are "Undeniable Truths" despite these topics being open to considerable debate. (Having just read all 35 of them again, absolutely none of them are "undeniable", and still none of them are funny.) I think my objection to these fortune entries stems from a number of factors: 1) The fortune program has a strong time bias in its selection algorithm. What I mean is, if you see something once today, you will see it (or entries close to it in the fortune file) several more times over the next few days. 2) This guy is quoted in an enormous block, so you can't miss it. There could be just as many quotes from Hitler in there, but if they aren't numbered as part of a series, I don't think I'd notice. 3) None of it is funny. All else could be forgiven for a chuckle. As a result of these factors, I've been hammered by unfunny nonsense for days on end. Fortune has let me down badly. >perhaps, the words to guide us are those of the young prince hal, > as related by the bard himself: > > i'll so offend to make offense a skill, > redeeming time when men think least i will. I'd be happy to be skillfully offended. That's not what Rush is doing here though. And a note to another commentator: labeling someone as Politically Correct and then noting that Political Correctness is no longer fashionable (and hence is not politically correct) ... is pretty funny. Keep it up. Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 10:02:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A716216A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CC743D2F for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:02:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) i05Hx5Vj032139; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:59:05 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i05Hx4FV032137; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:59:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:59:04 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Stephen McKay Message-ID: <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:02:24 -0000 Stephen McKay wrote: > I've got all I know about this guy from his entries in the FreeBSD > fortune file. I suspect that's true of most people outside the US who are reading this. I barely knew Limbaugh's name before coming to the US. (And I'd never heard of Al Franken either until Fox sued him about his book.) Limbaugh's quotes, everyone seems to agree, are neither funny nor intelligent; they're merely offensive. Why should FreeBSD give an international pulpit to some little-known ignorant American broadcaster? Would a random idiot hack from, say, Japan, Norway, or other countries with FreeBSD contributors, make it to the fortune files? Can I nominate Varsha Bhosle or Mani Shankar Aiyar from India (raise your hand if you've heard of them)? It may be an "offensive" fortune file but that doesn't mean offensiveness is the only criterion for inclusion. Personally I think the offensive fortune file can be removed, or made into a port. We have quite enough sources for offensive humour these days, thank you, besides a lot of it seems quite innocuous to me and can be merged back into the regular file (or else many the regular fortunes seem potentially offensive). All humour is potentially offensive to someone somewhere of course, but we can draw the line at stupid bigoted non-humour like Rush Limbaugh. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 10:30:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0EC16A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:30:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30DD43D1F; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:30:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from muxhermion@fastmail.fm) Received: from server1.messagingengine.com (server1.internal [10.202.2.132]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43EE749F059; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by server1.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 731F644AD5; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:30:03 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Maxim Hermion" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 10:30:03 -0800 X-Sasl-Enc: aU2JvBZOOKEuTCfCpjGTXA 1073327403 Message-Id: <20040105183003.731F644AD5@server1.messagingengine.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:30:12 -0000 I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds" FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be pushing the project in a direction that has made things more difficult, instead of more successful, that has shown distain for experience and quality and made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to push their personal projects down everyone's throat. The statistics sample from 2001 over a year was a cheap attempt to minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has been mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted by Greg, atm) he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the spelling) would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even entirely ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample timeframe. That suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a result of his newest attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to the project that he can later claim not to have time to maintain "unless someone is willing to pay for my time" (like the atm bits, the half-finished devd monster, et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put his name in lights at some point in the long past. Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it would delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he was right. I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who still hasn't gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant work done, but he always had time enough to object to any other commits that might help along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could work together. One might attribute certain commits to both Matt and Julian (if that would matter anyway, since -core is interested in proving the opposite statistically). If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better get out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that rotting pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter interface for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet filter with no central maintainer which is subject to once yearly random feature bloat through some wild university project from Luigi. The brokenness that Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through backing out and recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a threat to security than anything Matt did. If the security officer was to be blatantly honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for either a full audit or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something that someone actually actively _cares_ about). You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see), Greenman, you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done more with FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of quitting (since he, like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything more than an ego trip that will never be completely maintained or usefully documented). There are certainly others, too, that have attempted to make technically correct contributions, but didn't fit into the sort of paranoid "glee club" that core would like to have around them. You guys lack the talent to steer the positive from Matt into the project and let the crap fall by the wayside. I'm not saying Matt's rants are the most intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by the wayside and watch the superstars beat up the code to a point where it's less stable, slower, and more bloated than it ever was. I, for one, can understand his frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's, and a few others), although I find his method of expressing it extreme, I often wished he'd have just visited the offenders personally with a clue bat. All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I personally believe it was a decision made in weakness. The loss the project as a whole will suffer is greater than the bruised ego's the -core has had to deal with in its communications with Matt. Matt was an extremist, but he put up or shut up. I wish I could say that for most of -core. This is a personality confict in a technical project. I'd say that most of you take this just as personally as Matt did, but instead of insulting him in a moment of anger, you shoot off your own respective feet, lose a good deal of experience and embarass the man publicly. You talk the talk of respect, but you aren't walking the walk. I'd say most of you need thicker skin. In the end, FreeBSD folk will walk smiling though the streets, but the project will become a cult of likeable people, instead of one that achieved technical excellence. That will, imho, be what history says of the current -core. Hint: lose the touchy-feely, hack the code. Sincerely, Maxim Hermion FreeBSD committer PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me wrong, but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in -core. -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 10:33:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 931) id 1D1F816A4D0; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:33:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:33:15 -0600 From: Juli Mallett To: crap@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040105183315.GA99773@FreeBSD.org> References: <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Title: Code Maven X-Towel: Yes X-Negacore: Yes X-Authentication-Warning: localhost: juli pwned teh intarweb Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:33:15 -0000 > > Personally I think the offensive fortune file can be removed, or made > into a port. We have quite enough sources for offensive humour these > days, thank you, besides a lot of it seems quite innocuous to me and > can be merged back into the regular file (or else many the regular > fortunes seem potentially offensive). All humour is potentially > offensive to someone somewhere of course, but we can draw the line at > stupid bigoted non-humour like Rush Limbaugh. > In the spirit of "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it," I have to suggest that you just stop reading the offensive fortunes. The Rush stuff isn't funny, in and of itself. In fact, it's brash neo-conservative fluff rhetoric, with a little lack of modern social graces, as they were, becuase what's what Rush's audience is, and I have absolutely no problem with that. I might not like it (and I don't) but he's speaking to an audience who wants to hear what he says, pretty much 90% of the time. As Doug Barton (it was he who added these, yes?) said, there's quite a bit of "liberal," I think is the word, stuff there as it is. So I'd suggest that the people who are strongly against Rush's point of view who read the offensive fortunes and haven't yet grasped dealing with someone *else's* viewpoints in a constructive manner take a second and try to find the humor, or at least comfort, in this: %%% Rush Limbaugh's 35 Undeniable Truths of Life: (20) There is a God. -- "The Limbaugh Letter," Copyright 1992, EFM Publishing, Inc. %%% I can find no less than 3 things that amuse me with that, and only one thing that offends me. All else is just my opinion, my personal feelings, etc. Actually being offended takes a lot. There are some of Rush's statements which do offend me in a measurable way, but that's not the point. The point is, if you're one of the people who takes comfort in seeing these things (I can only imagine that they're *not* actually intended to be funny, even if they *are* light-hearted in Rush's way [I've listened to him a lot over time, and I think I at least vaguely understand the slant of his wit, as it were],) then you're probably happy to see them come on your screen now and then, amidst the likes of the below* (since you clearly have offensive fortunes shown to you on login,) and if you're not a big fan, take comfort in the converse. And if you disagree with everyone, then I hope you're big enough on dischord to get a big chuckle out of all of this, lest your life be riddled with the unhappiness that comes from not being a very fun person. %%% A conservative is a man who believes that nothing should be done for the first time. -- Alfred E. Wiggam %%% And remember, per fortune, that you are always free to just ignore the drivel in fortune, or this drivel, this email. Maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't be playing with the offensive fortunes. %%% I'll defend to the death your right to say that, but I never said I'd listen to it! -- Tom Galloway with apologies to Voltaire %%% Thanx, juli. * - Like I know what the hell in fortune ranks up there with the 35 Limbaugh things. I didn't just want to pick any one social issue (namely homosexuality, which fortune is quite fond of) so I just tried a bunch of fortune -am and gave it my best. If you can do better, feel free. If you can think of some similar that should be there alongside them, heh, go for it! PS: Since moving to Hawai`i, I've grown even fonder of this whole "social melting pot" thing, so I'm sure I sound like a total crackpot to both sides, just remember that a meeting of peoples who disagree, who are different, who ... is pretty much undeniably one of the things that does make America great. Or at least, that's what I was taught. -- juli mallett. email: jmallett@freebsd.org; efnet: juli; aim: bsdflata; From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 10:43:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B39E016A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:43:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnsmail2.umb.com (dnsmail2.umb.com [198.136.201.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608CD43D31; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:43:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Randall.Munden@umb.com) Received: from y8107a.umb.corp.umb.com (viruswall2.umb.com [192.168.3.213]) by dnsmail2.umb.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i05Ih9PC004990; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:43:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com ([172.19.51.30]) by y8107a with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:43:09 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:43:08 -0600 Message-ID: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Where is FreeBSD going? Thread-Index: AcPTuhLtpJzTaZt2QCazoj8gxp61TwAAT+DQ From: "Munden, Randall J" To: "Maxim Hermion" , cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:43:15 -0000 This makes me wonder if it isn't time for a new -core. -----Original Message----- From: Maxim Hermion [mailto:muxhermion@fastmail.fm]=20 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:30 PM To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Where is FreeBSD going? I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds" FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be pushing the project in a direction that has made things more difficult, instead of=20 more successful, that has shown distain for experience and quality and made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to push their personal projects down=20 everyone's throat. =20 The statistics sample from 2001 over a year was a cheap attempt to minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has been mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted by Greg, atm) he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the spelling) would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even entirely=20 ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample timeframe. That suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a result of his newest attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to the project that he can later claim not to have time to maintain "unless someone is willing to pay for my time" (like the atm bits, the half-finished devd monster, et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put his name in lights at some point in the long past.=20 Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it would delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he was right. I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who still hasn't gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant work done, but he always had time enough to object to any other commits that might help along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could work together. One might attribute certain commits to both Matt and Julian (if that would matter anyway, since -core is interested in proving the opposite statistically).=20 If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better get out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that rotting pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter interface for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet filter with no central maintainer which is subject to once yearly random feature bloat through some wild university project from Luigi. The brokenness that Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through backing out and recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a threat to security than anything Matt did. If the security officer was to be blatantly honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for either a full audit or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something that someone actually actively _cares_ about). You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see), Greenman, you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done more with FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of quitting (since he, like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything more than an ego trip that will never be completely maintained or usefully documented). There are certainly others, too, that have attempted to make technically correct contributions, but didn't fit into the sort of paranoid "glee club" that core would like to have around them. You guys lack the talent to steer the positive from Matt into the project and let the crap fall by the wayside. I'm not saying Matt's rants are the most intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by the wayside and watch the superstars beat up the code to a point where it's less stable, slower, and more bloated than it ever was. I, for one, can understand his frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's, and a few others), although I find his method of expressing it extreme, I often wished he'd have just visited the offenders personally with a clue bat. All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I personally believe it was a decision made in weakness. The loss the project as a whole will suffer is greater than the bruised ego's the -core has had to deal with in its communications with Matt. Matt was an extremist, but he put up or shut up. I wish I could say that for most of -core. This is a personality confict in a technical project. I'd say that most of you take this just as personally as Matt did, but instead of insulting him in a moment of anger, you shoot off your own respective feet, lose a good deal of experience and embarass the man publicly. You talk the talk of respect, but you aren't walking the walk. I'd say most of you need thicker skin. In the end, FreeBSD folk will walk smiling though the streets, but the project will become a cult of likeable people, instead of one that achieved technical excellence. That will, imho, be what history says of the current -core. Hint: lose the touchy-feely, hack the code. Sincerely, Maxim Hermion FreeBSD committer PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me wrong, but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in -core. --=20 http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own _______________________________________________ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 11:16:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB3616A4E2; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:16:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F0143D64; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:15:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14744; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:14:48 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:14:46 -0700 To: "Munden, Randall J" , "Maxim Hermion" , From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb .com> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:16:20 -0000 I'd like to see a more open and inclusive form of governance for FreeBSD. The current system of governance has, as its underlying assumption, that the most prolific coders make the best leaders. In my personal experience, this isn't a valid assumption. System administrators and end users have a big stake in FreeBSD, and are just as likely (perhaps more likely) to be good leaders for the project. --Brett Glass At 11:43 AM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: >This makes me wonder if it isn't time for a new -core. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Maxim Hermion [mailto:muxhermion@fastmail.fm] >Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:30 PM >To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org >Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org >Subject: Where is FreeBSD going? > > >I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 >years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds" >FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit >disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be >pushing the project in a direction that has made things more difficult, >instead of >more successful, that has shown distain for experience and quality and >made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to push their personal projects >down >everyone's throat. > >The statistics sample from 2001 over a year was a cheap attempt to >minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has been >mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his >superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted by >Greg, >atm) >he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If >one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the >spelling) >would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even >entirely >ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample timeframe. That >suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a result of his newest >attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to the project that he can >later claim not to have time to maintain "unless someone is willing to >pay for my time" (like the atm bits, the half-finished devd monster, >et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put his >name in lights at some point in the long past. > >Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp >development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the >archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the >number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it would >delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he was right. >I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who still hasn't >gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant work done, but >he always had time enough to object to any other commits that might help >along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could work together. One might >attribute certain commits to both Matt and Julian (if that would matter >anyway, since -core is interested in proving the opposite >statistically). > >If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better get >out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that rotting >pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter interface >for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet filter with no >central maintainer which is subject to once yearly random feature bloat >through some wild university project from Luigi. The brokenness that >Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through backing out and >recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a threat to security >than anything Matt did. If the security officer was to be blatantly >honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for either a full audit >or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something that someone actually >actively _cares_ about). > >You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see), Greenman, >you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done more with >FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of quitting (since he, >like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything more than an ego trip >that will never be completely maintained or usefully documented). There >are certainly others, too, that have attempted to make technically >correct contributions, but didn't fit into the sort of paranoid "glee >club" that core would like to have around them. You guys lack the >talent to steer the positive from Matt into the project and let the crap >fall by the wayside. I'm not saying Matt's rants are the most >intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by the wayside and watch the >superstars beat up the code to a point where it's less stable, slower, >and more bloated than it ever was. I, for one, can understand his >frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's, and a few others), although >I find his method of expressing it extreme, I often wished he'd have >just visited the offenders personally with a clue bat. > >All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I >personally believe it was a decision made in weakness. The loss the >project as a whole will suffer is greater than the bruised ego's the >-core has had to deal with in its communications with Matt. Matt was an >extremist, but he put up or shut up. I wish I could say that for most of >-core. This is a personality confict in a technical project. I'd say >that most of you take this just as personally as Matt did, but instead >of insulting him in a moment of anger, you shoot off your own respective >feet, lose a good deal of experience and embarass the man publicly. You >talk the talk of respect, but you aren't walking the walk. I'd say most >of you need thicker skin. In the end, FreeBSD folk will walk smiling >though the streets, but the project will become a cult of likeable >people, instead of one that achieved technical excellence. That will, >imho, be what history says of the current -core. Hint: lose the >touchy-feely, hack the code. > >Sincerely, > Maxim Hermion > FreeBSD committer > >PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me wrong, >but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in -core. > >-- >http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >To unsubscribe, send any mail to >"freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 11:38:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37DD416A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:38:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabby.gsicomp.on.ca (CPE00062566c7bb-CM000039c69a66.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [24.192.222.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA1A43D1D for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:38:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Received: from hermes (hermes.gsicomp.on.ca [192.168.0.18]) by gabby.gsicomp.on.ca (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with SMTP id i05Jcn8P013400; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:38:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Message-ID: <001f01c3d3c3$11ad2830$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> From: "Matt Emmerton" To: "Munden, Randall J" , "Maxim Hermion" References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:35:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:38:42 -0000 Maybe we should all start using and developing for Dillon's DragonFlyBSD -- it's already got a whole bunch of new features on the 4-x base that will soon rival the functionality of 5-CURRENT, without the mess. All this with a handful of active developers and no bikeshedding. -- Matt Emmerton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Munden, Randall J" To: "Maxim Hermion" ; Cc: Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:43 PM Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? > This makes me wonder if it isn't time for a new -core. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Maxim Hermion [mailto:muxhermion@fastmail.fm] > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:30 PM > To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Where is FreeBSD going? > > > I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 > years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds" > FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit > disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be > pushing the project in a direction that has made things more difficult, > instead of > more successful, that has shown distain for experience and quality and > made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to push their personal projects > down > everyone's throat. > > The statistics sample from 2001 over a year was a cheap attempt to > minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has been > mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his > superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted by > Greg, > atm) > he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If > one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the > spelling) > would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even > entirely > ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample timeframe. That > suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a result of his newest > attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to the project that he can > later claim not to have time to maintain "unless someone is willing to > pay for my time" (like the atm bits, the half-finished devd monster, > et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put his > name in lights at some point in the long past. > > Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp > development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the > archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the > number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it would > delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he was right. > I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who still hasn't > gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant work done, but > he always had time enough to object to any other commits that might help > along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could work together. One might > attribute certain commits to both Matt and Julian (if that would matter > anyway, since -core is interested in proving the opposite > statistically). > > If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better get > out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that rotting > pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter interface > for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet filter with no > central maintainer which is subject to once yearly random feature bloat > through some wild university project from Luigi. The brokenness that > Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through backing out and > recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a threat to security > than anything Matt did. If the security officer was to be blatantly > honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for either a full audit > or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something that someone actually > actively _cares_ about). > > You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see), Greenman, > you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done more with > FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of quitting (since he, > like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything more than an ego trip > that will never be completely maintained or usefully documented). There > are certainly others, too, that have attempted to make technically > correct contributions, but didn't fit into the sort of paranoid "glee > club" that core would like to have around them. You guys lack the > talent to steer the positive from Matt into the project and let the crap > fall by the wayside. I'm not saying Matt's rants are the most > intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by the wayside and watch the > superstars beat up the code to a point where it's less stable, slower, > and more bloated than it ever was. I, for one, can understand his > frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's, and a few others), although > I find his method of expressing it extreme, I often wished he'd have > just visited the offenders personally with a clue bat. > > All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I > personally believe it was a decision made in weakness. The loss the > project as a whole will suffer is greater than the bruised ego's the > -core has had to deal with in its communications with Matt. Matt was an > extremist, but he put up or shut up. I wish I could say that for most of > -core. This is a personality confict in a technical project. I'd say > that most of you take this just as personally as Matt did, but instead > of insulting him in a moment of anger, you shoot off your own respective > feet, lose a good deal of experience and embarass the man publicly. You > talk the talk of respect, but you aren't walking the walk. I'd say most > of you need thicker skin. In the end, FreeBSD folk will walk smiling > though the streets, but the project will become a cult of likeable > people, instead of one that achieved technical excellence. That will, > imho, be what history says of the current -core. Hint: lose the > touchy-feely, hack the code. > > Sincerely, > Maxim Hermion > FreeBSD committer > > PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me wrong, > but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in -core. > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 11:40:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3F916A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:40:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnsmail2.umb.com (dnsmail2.umb.com [198.136.201.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39DF43D48; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:40:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Randall.Munden@umb.com) Received: from y8107a.umb.corp.umb.com (viruswall2.umb.com [192.168.3.213]) by dnsmail2.umb.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i05JeMPC020626; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:40:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com ([172.19.51.30]) by y8107a with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:40:22 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:40:21 -0600 Message-ID: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Where is FreeBSD going? Thread-Index: AcPTwQiQiBtZpqw3Rei+tJK6/6jFkAAAn5CA From: "Munden, Randall J" To: , cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:40:27 -0000 Right. What concerns me most is the rise in the incidence of trolls all trolling about the same subject or along the same vein. Would someone please explain what is going on? As a production user of fBSD this is troubling. --rjm-- -----Original Message----- From: Chris Doherty [mailto:chris@randomcamel.net]=20 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:21 PM To: Munden, Randall J Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? there is no "Maxim Hermion", and the email was sent from a free webmail site. please ask Google before feeding the troll. :-) chris On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 12:43:08PM -0600, Munden, Randall J said:=20 > This makes me wonder if it isn't time for a new -core. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Maxim Hermion [mailto:muxhermion@fastmail.fm] > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:30 PM > To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Where is FreeBSD going? >=20 >=20 > I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 > years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds"=20 > FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit=20 > disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be=20 > pushing the project in a direction that has made things more=20 > difficult, instead of more successful, that has shown distain for=20 > experience and quality and made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to=20 > push their personal projects down > everyone's throat. =20 >=20 > The statistics sample from 2001 over a year was a cheap attempt to=20 > minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has=20 > been mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his=20 > superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted=20 > by Greg, > atm) > he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If=20 > one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the > spelling) > would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even=20 > entirely ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample=20 > timeframe. That suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a=20 > result of his newest attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to=20 > the project that he can later claim not to have time to maintain=20 > "unless someone is willing to pay for my time" (like the atm bits, the > half-finished devd monster, > et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put=20 > his name in lights at some point in the long past. >=20 > Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp=20 > development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the > archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the > number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it=20 > would delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he=20 > was right. I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who > still hasn't gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant > work done, but he always had time enough to object to any other=20 > commits that might help along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could > work together. One might attribute certain commits to both Matt and=20 > Julian (if that would matter anyway, since -core is interested in=20 > proving the opposite statistically). >=20 > If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better=20 > get out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that=20 > rotting pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter=20 > interface for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet=20 > filter with no central maintainer which is subject to once yearly=20 > random feature bloat through some wild university project from Luigi.=20 > The brokenness that Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through > backing out and recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a=20 > threat to security than anything Matt did. If the security officer was > to be blatantly honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for=20 > either a full audit or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something=20 > that someone actually actively _cares_ about). >=20 > You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see),=20 > Greenman, you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done=20 > more with FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of=20 > quitting (since he, like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything=20 > more than an ego trip that will never be completely maintained or=20 > usefully documented). There are certainly others, too, that have=20 > attempted to make technically correct contributions, but didn't fit=20 > into the sort of paranoid "glee club" that core would like to have=20 > around them. You guys lack the talent to steer the positive from Matt > into the project and let the crap fall by the wayside. I'm not saying=20 > Matt's rants are the most intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by > the wayside and watch the superstars beat up the code to a point where > it's less stable, slower, and more bloated than it ever was. I, for=20 > one, can understand his frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's,=20 > and a few others), although I find his method of expressing it=20 > extreme, I often wished he'd have just visited the offenders=20 > personally with a clue bat. >=20 > All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I > personally believe it was a decision made in weakness. The loss the=20 > project as a whole will suffer is greater than the bruised ego's the=20 > -core has had to deal with in its communications with Matt. Matt was=20 > an extremist, but he put up or shut up. I wish I could say that for=20 > most of -core. This is a personality confict in a technical project.=20 > I'd say that most of you take this just as personally as Matt did, but > instead of insulting him in a moment of anger, you shoot off your own=20 > respective feet, lose a good deal of experience and embarass the man=20 > publicly. You talk the talk of respect, but you aren't walking the=20 > walk. I'd say most of you need thicker skin. In the end, FreeBSD folk > will walk smiling though the streets, but the project will become a=20 > cult of likeable people, instead of one that achieved technical=20 > excellence. That will, imho, be what history says of the current=20 > -core. Hint: lose the touchy-feely, hack the code. >=20 > Sincerely, > Maxim Hermion > FreeBSD committer >=20 > PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me=20 > wrong, but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in > -core. >=20 > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ------------------------------- Chris Doherty chris [at] randomcamel.net "I think," said Christopher Robin, "that we ought to eat all our provisions now, so we won't have so much to carry." -- A. A. Milne ------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 11:43:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0927416A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from tx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A9743D41 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:43:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from scan2.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.162] helo=localhost) by tx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Adadd-000538-M2 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:43:45 +0000 Received: from rx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.161]) by localhost (scan2.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.162]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 19368-01 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 19:43:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.161.253]) by rx2.oucs.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Adadd-00052p-8W for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:43:45 +0000 Received: (qmail 26934 invoked by uid 0); 5 Jan 2004 19:43:45 -0000 Received: from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk by gateway by uid 71 with qmail-scanner-1.16 (sweep: 2.14/3.71. spamassassin: 2.53. Clear:. Processed in 2.379478 secs); 05 Jan 2004 19:43:45 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk via gateway X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.16 (Clear:. Processed in 2.379478 secs) Received: from dhcp1131.wadham.ox.ac.uk (HELO piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (163.1.161.131) by gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk with SMTP; 5 Jan 2004 19:43:42 -0000 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.1.20040105194212.04293d10@imap.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@imap.sfu.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:43:30 +0000 To: "Munden, Randall J" From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb .com> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:43:52 -0000 At 19:40 05/01/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: >Right. What concerns me most is the rise in the incidence of trolls all >trolling about the same subject or along the same vein. Would someone >please explain what is going on? As a production user of fBSD this is >troubling. There is no rise in the incidence of trolls. There a recent rise in the incidence of *troll*. As far as I am aware, there has only ever been one troll on the FreeBSD mailing lists. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 11:47:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7CE16A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:47:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49AE43D1D; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:47:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A46A23D28; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:47:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: "Munden, Randall J" Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 14:47:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3FF978F7.6417.EE52D19E@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:47:21 -0000 On 5 Jan 2004 at 13:40, Munden, Randall J wrote: > Right. What concerns me most is the rise in the incidence of trolls > all trolling about the same subject or along the same vein. Would > someone please explain what is going on? As a production user of fBSD > this is troubling. Don't let trolls trouble you no matter how many you see. They aren't contributing. And I second what Colin said. One troll. Many disguises. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 11:55:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C8716A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:55:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E159243D2F; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:55:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) i05Jq1Vj032620; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:52:01 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i05Jq0Pj032618; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:52:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:52:00 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Juli Mallett Message-ID: <20040105195200.GA32581@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:55:16 -0000 Juli Mallett wrote: > There are some of Rush's statements which do offend me in a > measurable way, but that's not the point. The point is, if you're > one of the people who takes comfort in seeing these things (I can > only imagine that they're *not* actually intended to be funny, even > if they *are* light-hearted in Rush's way [I've listened to him a > lot over time, and I think I at least vaguely understand the slant > of his wit, as it were],) then you're probably happy to see them > come on your screen now and then, amidst the likes of the below* > (since you clearly have offensive fortunes shown to you on login,) > and if you're not a big fan, take comfort in the converse. The point is, Rush Limbaugh means nothing to the vast majority of people in the world (I said that in my mail but you didn't quote it or respond to it). I wouldn't object to a witty but bigoted quote among the offensive fortunes by, say, Chesterton or Churchill, but including people like Limbaugh just mystifies non-US people and gives a bad impression, in my opinion (just as you'd be mystified if SuSE Linux chose to include some unfunny, unperceptive, bigoted quotes by a German you'd never heard of, whose cultural context you didn't understand, and told you "if you're offended don't read it"). Perhaps you disagree. My objection is not to reading Limbaugh when I type fortune -o (when I do that I'm prepared to be offended) -- it's to the aesthetic idea of putting Limbaugh into a free operating system which is available and respected internationally. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:01:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EABF516A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:01:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mavra.perilith.com (net-6621941-218.customer.corenap.com [66.219.41.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD64143D45 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:01:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aard@perilith.com) Received: by mavra.perilith.com (Postfix, from userid 1002) id C09BB1004BD4; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:01:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:01:23 -0600 From: a clever sheep To: Stephen McKay Message-ID: <20040105200123.GA16165@mavra.perilith.com> References: <200401020525.i025PM2W004726@dungeon.home> <20040102053610.GP78263@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3FF93422.2050006@emailrob.com> <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> Precedence: special-delivery User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:01:28 -0000 and now for something completely different (and non-political)... how many of these personal patches do you have? i have a few things myself but i don't know how much value there is in them. would it be an advantage to have a community site with something similiar to (please don't cringe, i'm about to say wiki) a wiki where we could exchange these scripts? i can see a lot of value in freebsd patches that aren't 'mainstream' enough for the main tree but would still be valuable. or is there such a site that i've just missed? -- aard aard@perilith.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:29:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B0616A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:29:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C2443D55; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:29:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from muxhermion@fastmail.fm) Received: from server1.messagingengine.com (server1.internal [10.202.2.132]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1548449F298; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by server1.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 2E0853A8C6; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:29:38 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Maxim Hermion" To: "Jason Andresen" Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:29:38 -0800 X-Sasl-Enc: SP6HTv58Zkxw0gpw1ttqpA 1073334578 References: <20040105183003.731F644AD5@server1.messagingengine.com> <3FF9AF8B.2060100@mitre.org> In-Reply-To: <3FF9AF8B.2060100@mitre.org> Message-Id: <20040105202938.2E0853A8C6@server1.messagingengine.com> cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:29:55 -0000 Aloha! On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:40:11 -0500, "Jason Andresen" said: > > Maxim Hermion > > FreeBSD committer > > Who? > > Is there a list of the actual committers and their email addresses > anywhere? I've not had any luck looking around the website. It would > be nice to be able to point at it when trolls come around. You don't get it, do you? If I used my real name, the people from the core team would threaten me again, ergo, I use this slightly modified name. Ask Hiten Pandya what a bunch of elitists these guys are. They flooded him with racist comments. And don't get me started on our friend phk, the most arrogant person I've ever met: (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=poul-henning+flame&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&selm=DERAADT.96Oct20024208%40zeus.theos.com&rnum=2) "You're a dimwit, a sub-iq moron actually, and on your way to a mental breakdown that we can only aid the world in speeding up :-)" This shows the attitude common among FreeBSD committers. Everything I've said is true, get over it. Mux P.S: What's with that random idiot on freenode passing as me? -- http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:33:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571C016A4D0; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231DA43D31; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:33:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from muxhermion@fastmail.fm) Received: from server1.messagingengine.com (server1.internal [10.202.2.132]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F208949F2A9; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by server1.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 1388843D72; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:33:25 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Maxim Hermion" To: "Brett Glass" , "Munden, Randall J" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:33:24 -0800 X-Sasl-Enc: neVnGJ3UKZ0pjQJDcsyg2Q 1073334804 References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> Message-Id: <20040105203325.1388843D72@server1.messagingengine.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:33:29 -0000 On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:14:46 -0700, "Brett Glass" said: > I'd like to see a more open and inclusive form of governance for > FreeBSD. The current system of governance has, as its underlying > assumption, that the most prolific coders make the best leaders. > In my personal experience, this isn't a valid assumption. System > administrators and end users have a big stake in FreeBSD, and are > just as likely (perhaps more likely) to be good leaders for the > project. Not going to happen, as long as these guys are in charge. Greg Lehey, the most elitist member of core, is one prime example of this. With all the politics involved, and the little progress made in critical areas like SMP in the last 6 months, I'm happy the DragonFlyBSD is making such fast progress since, by now, it's pretty obvious to most people that RELENG_5 is a dead end, and FreeBSD has lost most of it's appeal. Mux -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:35:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6162616A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32EB643D2F for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:35:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from muxhermion@fastmail.fm) Received: from server1.messagingengine.com (server1.internal [10.202.2.132]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA4A49F2B8; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by server1.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 5523043D14; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:35:22 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Maxim Hermion" To: "Matt Emmerton" , "Munden, Randall J" Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:35:22 -0800 X-Sasl-Enc: IiUBE9WmRil485hiU/QfoQ 1073334922 References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <001f01c3d3c3$11ad2830$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> In-Reply-To: <001f01c3d3c3$11ad2830$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> Message-Id: <20040105203522.5523043D14@server1.messagingengine.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:35:26 -0000 On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:35:25 -0500, "Matt Emmerton" said: > Maybe we should all start using and developing for Dillon's DragonFlyBSD > -- > it's already got a whole bunch of new features on the 4-x base that will > soon rival the functionality of 5-CURRENT, without the mess. All this > with > a handful of active developers and no bikeshedding. Exactly, if you check the DragonFlyBSD lists you'll see zero flames and bikeseds. And it shows that Matt can indeed be a team player. Not only people like Mark Murray and Greg made an ass of themselves, but it's been now proven by DragonFly's LWTK that heavily mutexed kernels (like FreeBSD's) can never work unless you have an army of coders (like Sun did). Mux -- http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:40:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E8216A4D0; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:40:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12D643D2F; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:40:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@markdnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from lizacnet.demon.co.uk ([80.177.208.105]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AdbW4-0002bd-0V; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:40:00 +0000 From: Mark Dixon To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:40:38 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> <20040105203325.1388843D72@server1.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: <20040105203325.1388843D72@server1.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401052040.40671.mark@markdnet.demon.co.uk> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:40:02 -0000 =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 05 Jan 2004 20:33, Maxim Hermion wrote: > by now, it's > pretty obvious to most people that RELENG_5 is a dead end, and FreeBSD > has lost most > of it's appeal. I don't think thats the case _yet_, but, IMHO a lot of credibility is on th= e=20 line now. If 5.3 does not become 5-STABLE, it will be lost. Just my 2p Mark =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+cvGLqgJ90OcaiARAspnAJ4nXZXH5PJosxdKS9oDzg5M2XGNRgCeJjS5 bhFtbCwIi1g2yRfFhG2+hWU=3D =3Dgnpk =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:53:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6187F16A4D0; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C83D43D4C; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:53:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16019; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:52:52 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105134236.03b51cc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:52:50 -0700 To: "Munden, Randall J" , , From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb .com> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:53:07 -0000 At 12:40 PM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: >Right. What concerns me most is the rise in the incidence of trolls all >trolling about the same subject or along the same vein. Would someone >please explain what is going on? As a production user of fBSD this is >troubling. It's probably one of the Slashdot "BSD is dead" trolls. The fact is, though, that there ARE things about FreeBSD that could stand improvement. These days, when I build a box, I am torn between using FreeBSD 5.x -- which is not ready for prime time but is at least being worked on actively -- and using 4.9, which isn't as stable as it should be because the developers broke the cardinal rule of making radical changes to -STABLE. This *is* a real issue for those of us who are admins. FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux in the area of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption). Again, this is a governance issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy toward advocacy, since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too many people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd their "sandbox." So, some of the criticism is actually valid. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:54:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E4F16A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (romulus-net.sd73.bc.ca [142.24.13.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D85243D1D for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:54:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca) Received: from 192.168.0.200 (romulus-net.sd73.bc.ca [142.24.13.134]) i05Kn97O022009; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:49:09 -0800 From: Freddie Cash Organization: School District 73 To: a clever sheep Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:54:46 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200401020525.i025PM2W004726@dungeon.home> <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> <20040105200123.GA16165@mavra.perilith.com> In-Reply-To: <20040105200123.GA16165@mavra.perilith.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401051254.46959.fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca> X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.1(snapshot 20020919) (enterprise.sd73.bc.ca) cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:54:52 -0000 On January 5, 2004 12:01 pm, a clever sheep wrote: > and now for something completely different (and non-political)... > how many of these personal patches do you have? i have a few things > myself but i don't know how much value there is in them. would it be > an advantage to have a community site with something similiar to > (please don't cringe, i'm about to say wiki) a wiki where we could > exchange these scripts? i can see a lot of value in freebsd patches > that aren't 'mainstream' enough for the main tree but would still be > valuable. > or is there such a site that i've just missed? Have you checked out http://www.bsdfroums.org ?? This would make a good place to start putting personal patches. Just create a new thread in the How-To section for each patch, with a descrition of what it does, how to apply it, and so on, then attach the patch. -- Freddie Cash District HelpDesk / Network Admin http://www.sd73.bc.ca From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:58:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0D9216A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36C443D31; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:58:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16140; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:58:06 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105135538.03cf1ce0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:58:04 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Juli Mallett From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20040105195200.GA32581@online.fr> References: <20040105195200.GA32581@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:58:14 -0000 At 12:52 PM 1/5/2004, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >My objection is not to reading Limbaugh when I type fortune -o (when I >do that I'm prepared to be offended) -- it's to the aesthetic idea of >putting Limbaugh into a free operating system which is available and >respected internationally. For once, Rahul, I actually agree with you. Rush and Bush have managed, in short order, to alienate virtually all of the world outside the US (including most British subjects, even though the UK's leaders seem to be in the thrall of Bush and Limbaugh). Do we want our OS to likewise alienate the world? --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 13:07:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4326116A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D0CE43D1D for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:07:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) i05L4JVj000836; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:04:19 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i05L4I3r000834; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:04:18 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:04:18 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Maxim Hermion Message-ID: <20040105210418.GA694@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Maxim Hermion , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040105202938.2E0853A8C6@server1.messagingengine.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 21:07:36 -0000 A troll wrote: > You don't get it, do you? If I used my real name, the people from > the core team would threaten me again, ergo, I use this slightly > modified name. Eh? Threaten you how? Remove your commit bit, or something? You seem to be a rather knowledgeable troll and you've been around for a while. But as long as you stay anonymous nobody'll take you seriously. I'm sure you know this, and yet you persist. The only explanation I can think of is, if people knew who you really are, you're afraid they'd take you even _less_ seriously. > Ask Hiten Pandya what a bunch of elitists these guys are. At least he continues to use his real name. I suspect there are multiple trolls around (or this troll is schizophrenic), since previous troll posts have heaped abuse on Hiten Pandya, Matt Dillon, and others whom this troll evidently admires. Inevitable in a large project like FreeBSD, I suppose. But if the present troll is an advocate of DragonFly, they have my sympathies. They're an interesting project and deserve better publicity. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 14:00:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9322616A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from remco.elvandar.org (cust.94.120.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.94.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 996DF43D31 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:00:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from remko@elvandar.org) From: "Remko Lodder" To: "Mark Dixon" , Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:01:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <20040105204208.6EAAB2B4D65@remco.elvandar.org> Importance: Normal Message-Id: <20040105220036.150C52B4D63@remco.elvandar.org> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: [Freebsd-hackers] Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:00:44 -0000 Hi all freebsd users, I Never ever noticed that these things are playing within freebsd.org I See a healthy and good working organisation behind freebsd.org I think they are really productional and give out releases a lot of times. I also think that's very sad news to recieve on these days, why are people sending this, But then again, i am a loyal freebsd.org fan, i will stick some of my machines with freebsd os'es, and i am sure the freebsd.org crew can handle this. You have my vote!! Cheers Remko Lodder -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: freebsd-hackers-bounces@lists.elvandar.org [mailto:freebsd-hackers-bounces@lists.elvandar.org]Namens Mark Dixon Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2004 21:41 Aan: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Onderwerp: [Freebsd-hackers] Re: Where is FreeBSD going? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 05 Jan 2004 20:33, Maxim Hermion wrote: > by now, it's > pretty obvious to most people that RELENG_5 is a dead end, and FreeBSD > has lost most > of it's appeal. I don't think thats the case _yet_, but, IMHO a lot of credibility is on the line now. If 5.3 does not become 5-STABLE, it will be lost. Just my 2p Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+cvGLqgJ90OcaiARAspnAJ4nXZXH5PJosxdKS9oDzg5M2XGNRgCeJjS5 bhFtbCwIi1g2yRfFhG2+hWU= =gnpk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _______________________________________________ Freebsd-hackers mailing list Freebsd-hackers@lists.elvandar.org http://lists.elvandar.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 14:16:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBB216A4D0 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (floyd.blarg.net [206.124.128.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDA843D2D for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:16:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F44F3B17D for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:15:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i05MFJLP053161 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:15:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i05MFIs9053160 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:15:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:15:18 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040105221518.GB53025@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200401020525.i025PM2W004726@dungeon.home> <20040102053610.GP78263@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3FF93422.2050006@emailrob.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FF93422.2050006@emailrob.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:16:08 -0000 --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, rob_spellberg wrote: : i'll so offend to make offense a skill, : redeeming time when men think least i will. If highjacking is the offense, you have the terrorist's credo right there! --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net Pecor's Health-Food Principle: Never eat rutabaga on any day of the week that has a "y" in it. --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+eH0BC/kSIeFE54RAmmZAKDcOAWu09M+7nH/li5acx7GKJbRNQCfXQeF GJxlepMcGRo7tOOjKXkAmlA= =8e5D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 14:22:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5310516A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:22:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E02D43D2F; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:22:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@markdnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from lizacnet.demon.co.uk ([80.177.208.105]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Add7Q-0002Jb-0U; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:22:41 +0000 From: Mark Dixon To: "Remko Lodder" , Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 22:23:28 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20040105220036.06CF92B4D47@remco.elvandar.org> In-Reply-To: <20040105220036.06CF92B4D47@remco.elvandar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401052223.35749.mark@markdnet.demon.co.uk> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Freebsd-hackers] Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:22:43 -0000 =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 05 Jan 2004 22:01, Remko Lodder wrote: > I Never ever noticed that these things are playing within freebsd.org > I See a healthy and good working organisation behind freebsd.org > I think they are really productional and give out releases a lot of times. Sorry yeah, I didn't phrase that all that well. I also fully support the=20 people putting hours of their time into producing a great OS. I just think= =20 that with all of this mud being thrown, some of it is starting to stick. Mark =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+ePmLqgJ90OcaiARAuPrAKD44kok+WrOBnDEt/a39RKq6c+4GwCfeBIe 6N7mnoWJFWcCKARVNUpBCIY=3D =3DIEuG =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 14:24:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BFCC16A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:24:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6497A43D48 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:23:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2004010522234501500p3pl4e>; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 22:23:45 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i05MLfgS035462; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:21:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i05MLaBu035461; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:21:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: chat@freebsd.org References: <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 14:21:35 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> (Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:59:04 -0500") Message-ID: <52ad526nps.d52@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:24:03 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan writes: > I barely knew Limbaugh's name before coming to the US. Some people don't care for USA-centric entries. I could come up with many other categories of entries that many people would prefer be removed or at least segregated. > Why should FreeBSD give an international pulpit to some little-known > ignorant American broadcaster? Because it's considered to be very wrong to push someone away from a pulpit when he's speaking. Especially when another FreeBSD committer walked him to the pulpit and other FreeBSD users want him to be heard. Too many people care too much about who's speaking rather than about what's being said. But for that reason at least, I can see how Limbaugh's "Truths" wouldn't be as offensive to those outside the USA. The fortune system probably should be redesigned so that entries could get multiple tags like "offensive to some", "humorous to some", "Euro-centric", etc. BTW, as an occasional listener and former fan of Limbaugh's since 1988, I find that your characterizations of him as little-known, ignorant, stupid, bigoted, and unhumorous are all generally false and are made in a blatant and hateful manner that is harmful to the purposes of this forum. He has made it easy enough for you to disparage him without resort to such nasty tactics. (I say "former fan" because I think he should be socially punished for having hurt his Cause as he has. As for legal punishments, I hold the common libertarian position.) > Would a random idiot hack from, say, Japan, Norway, or > other countries with FreeBSD contributors, make it to the fortune > files? As long as he's found a translator, like Friedrich Nietzsche did. > It may be an "offensive" fortune file but that doesn't mean > offensiveness is the only criterion for inclusion. So what are the criterion? Where should the line be drawn (in a space with many more than two dimensions)? The manpage describes the entries with the terms "hopefully interesting", "adage", "epigram", "maxims", and "sayings". There's no requirement for humor. Limbaugh's "Undeniable Truths of Life" surely qualify, even if many people (including me) would label many of them as uninteresting, in spite of the fact that the thought has been interesting enough for people to argue about for thousands of years. The requirement for offensiveness is well-met by the mere fact that they carry Limbaugh's name, as shown so well in this chat thread. My main problem with the file is with the "balance" of the file. One entry uncharacteristicly uses "my brother-in-law" as the butt of a joke, while the bulk of such entries use someone like Ronald Reagan and only a few use someone like Jimmy Carter. (I say "like" because Reagan appears 18 times while Carter never appears.) But I suppose the imbalance approximates the attitudes of committers who are prone to caring about such expressions of opinion as the fortunes program. "Let he who is without humility make the first deletion." From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 14:31:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A087616A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from remco.elvandar.org (cust.94.120.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.94.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E726D43D41 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:31:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from remko@elvandar.org) From: "Remko Lodder" To: "Mark Dixon" , Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:32:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <20040105222301.B95742B4D65@remco.elvandar.org> Importance: Normal Message-Id: <20040105223112.E6BD22B4D69@remco.elvandar.org> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: [Freebsd-hackers] Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:31:15 -0000 Mark, You are totally right with the stuff that is starting to stick. Let us all be happy and continue to support the freebsd.org core team. Internal fights are pretty common, no one can ever be happy with other's choices. But i think it's a shame that one would have to resign or worse the freebsd project hangs and perhaps gets killed by this foolish actions. Keep hanging tight guys!!! Regards, Remko Lodder -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Mark Dixon [mailto:mark@markdnet.demon.co.uk] Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2004 23:23 Aan: Remko Lodder; freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Onderwerp: Re: [Freebsd-hackers] Re: Where is FreeBSD going? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 05 Jan 2004 22:01, Remko Lodder wrote: > I Never ever noticed that these things are playing within freebsd.org > I See a healthy and good working organisation behind freebsd.org > I think they are really productional and give out releases a lot of times. Sorry yeah, I didn't phrase that all that well. I also fully support the people putting hours of their time into producing a great OS. I just think that with all of this mud being thrown, some of it is starting to stick. Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+ePmLqgJ90OcaiARAuPrAKD44kok+WrOBnDEt/a39RKq6c+4GwCfeBIe 6N7mnoWJFWcCKARVNUpBCIY= =IEuG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 15:00:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F391D16A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnsmail2.umb.com (dnsmail2.umb.com [198.136.201.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468BF43D1F; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:00:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Randall.Munden@umb.com) Received: from y8107a.umb.corp.umb.com (viruswall2.umb.com [192.168.3.213]) by dnsmail2.umb.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i05N0HPC007903; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:00:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com ([172.19.51.30]) by y8107a with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:00:15 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:00:14 -0600 Message-ID: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1A@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Where is FreeBSD going? Thread-Index: AcPTzeiSOcDA2ww5Rba73Nxs97bkCgAEDOfA From: "Munden, Randall J" To: "Brett Glass" , , cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 23:00:20 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Glass [mailto:brett@lariat.org]=20 > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 2:53 PM > To: Munden, Randall J; chris@randomcamel.net;=20 > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? >=20 >=20 > At 12:40 PM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: > =20 > >Right. What concerns me most is the rise in the incidence of trolls=20 > >all trolling about the same subject or along the same vein. Would=20 > >someone please explain what is going on? As a production=20 > user of fBSD=20 > >this is troubling. >=20 > It's probably one of the Slashdot "BSD is dead" trolls. The=20 > fact is, though, that there ARE things about FreeBSD that=20 > could stand improvement. These days, when I build a box, I am=20 > torn between using FreeBSD 5.x -- which is not ready for=20 > prime time but is at least being worked on actively -- and=20 > using 4.9, which isn't as stable as it should be because the=20 > developers broke the cardinal rule of making radical changes=20 > to -STABLE. This *is* a real issue for those of us who are admins. I think this is what is on my mind these days. I'm preparing to load up some machines for production soon (I've already put it off for too long waiting for 5-STABLE) and I don't like what I'm seeing -- with=20 both the mud slinging here and the performance in the lab (mostly=20 anecdotal). Perhaps I've just become spoiled by each new -RELEASE=20 being ten times better than the previous one or perhaps I'm just=20 becoming a bit neurotic with age but I'm not seeing the progression=20 of improvement I've come to expect (or perhaps only imagined?). Don't misinterpret the above, I <3 fBSD and I'll not soon replace=20 it with anything else. But I do like to look ahead to see what's coming. >=20 > FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux=20 > in the area of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption).=20 > Again, this is a governance=20 > issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy=20 > toward advocacy,=20 > since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too=20 > many people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd=20 > their "sandbox." So, some of the criticism is actually valid. I noticed it too but I just chalked it up to being crazy busy and not paying much attention. >=20 > --Brett >=20 >=20 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 17:19:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E83116A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67F6A43D2F for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:19:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smckay@internode.on.net) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp190-235.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net [150.101.190.235])i061JVRp085208; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:49:32 +1030 (CST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.12.8p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i061JUAL005461; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:19:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200401060119.i061JUAL005461@dungeon.home> To: a clever sheep References: <200401020525.i025PM2W004726@dungeon.home> <20040102053610.GP78263@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3FF93422.2050006@emailrob.com> <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> <20040105200123.GA16165@mavra.perilith.com> In-Reply-To: <20040105200123.GA16165@mavra.perilith.com> from a clever sheep at "Mon, 05 Jan 2004 14:01:23 -0600" Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 11:19:30 +1000 From: Stephen McKay cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: Personal patches (actually about patches this time) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 01:19:36 -0000 On Monday, 5th January 2004, a clever sheep wrote: >and now for something completely different (and non-political)... > >how many of these personal patches do you have? i have a few things >myself but i don't know how much value there is in them. would it be an >advantage to have a community site with something similiar to (please >don't cringe, i'm about to say wiki) a wiki where we could exchange >these scripts? i can see a lot of value in freebsd patches that aren't >'mainstream' enough for the main tree but would still be valuable. Most of my personal patches are just that: personal. Of the lot, the only one I can think of that others might find useful is the patch to add a flag (-0) to "find" to make the default action -print0 not -print, so you can more easily plug it into xargs -0. I'll submit that one in a PR sometime. Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 19:16:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FDF016A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 19:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294F443D41; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 19:16:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20965; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:16:08 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105201330.04837720@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:16:08 -0700 To: "Munden, Randall J" , , From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1A@y6001a.umb.corp.umb .com> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1A@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:16:21 -0000 At 04:00 PM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: >I think this is what is on my mind these days. I'm preparing to load >up some machines for production soon (I've already put it off for too >long waiting for 5-STABLE) and I don't like what I'm seeing -- with >both the mud slinging here and the performance in the lab (mostly >anecdotal). I don't think that *this* conversation is mud slinging. What's happening on Slashdot, on the other hand, is. >> >> FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux >> in the area of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption). >> Again, this is a governance >> issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy >> toward advocacy, >> since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too >> many people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd >> their "sandbox." So, some of the criticism is actually valid. > >I noticed it too but I just chalked it up to being crazy busy >and not paying much attention. Nope, it's not because you're too busy. It's true. FreeBSD is getting fewer mentions in the mainstream press, and fewer commercial apps, lately. Linux is mentioned as if it was the ONLY alternative to Windows. Work is needed to raise FreeBSD's profile. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 19:56:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C37B16A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 19:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95AD43D31 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 19:56:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21245; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:55:59 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105205449.04737818@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:55:59 -0700 To: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen), chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <52ad526nps.d52@mail.comcast.net> References: <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> <52ad526nps.d52@mail.comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:56:06 -0000 At 03:21 PM 1/5/2004, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >BTW, as an occasional listener and former fan of Limbaugh's since >1988, I find that your characterizations of him as little-known, >ignorant, stupid, bigoted, and unhumorous are all generally false and >are made in a blatant and hateful manner that is harmful to the >purposes of this forum. It's Limbaugh who's hateful. As well as deserving of the other epithets you mention above. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 23:44:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04A916A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.jdyson.com (dsl-static-206-246-160-137.iquest.net [206.246.160.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF9343D2F for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:44:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.jdyson.com) Received: from dyson.jdyson.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dyson.jdyson.com (8.12.8/8.9.3) with ESMTP id i067iP7e010983; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 02:44:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.jdyson.com) Received: (from toor@localhost) by dyson.jdyson.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i067iPov010982; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 02:44:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200401060744.i067iPov010982@dyson.jdyson.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105205449.04737818@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Jan 5, 2004 08:55:59 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 02:44:24 -0500 (EST) From: jsd@jdyson.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Personal patches and simple mutual respect X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsd@jdyson.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 07:44:29 -0000 Brett Glass said: > At 03:21 PM 1/5/2004, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > >BTW, as an occasional listener and former fan of Limbaugh's since > >1988, I find that your characterizations of him as little-known, > >ignorant, stupid, bigoted, and unhumorous are all generally false and > >are made in a blatant and hateful manner that is harmful to the > >purposes of this forum. > > It's Limbaugh who's hateful. As well as deserving of the other > epithets you mention above. > Rather than discuss the merits or disadvantages of Limbaugh, your own vehemence is EXACTLY the reason why it is inappropriate to let too much political commentary poison the atmosphere in FreeBSD. Lets show respect for each other's political sensibilities, and not feel like simple mutual respect and politeness should be mistaken for political correctness. Rush Limbaugh doesn't add anything to FreeBSD, but nor do the following: Al Franken, Michael Moore, Janeane Garafolo, Sean Hannity, Dr Laura, Neil Boortz, Alan Colmes, James Carville etc... This isn't a calling for 'censorship', but is simply recognizing the fact that there is alot of political divisiveness going on right now, and the intensity borders on the level of the jihadis who knocked down the WTC buildings!!! People can ALWAYS add their own silly data files... (In my own case, I have an extremely intense meta dislike for intolerance of other people's ideas.) It is best to make a decision based upon respect for other people's feelings, and not base it on 'correctness' of each indivdiual idea. So, to make me angry, it would be either for a crusade that there is censorship if the off-subject material is removed... It would also make me angry if someone adds controversial material INTO THE FBSD PROJECT just to be 'in your face.' There are plenty of forums to discuss political issues :-). John From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 03:37:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EDFE16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 03:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from sentry.ucr.edu (sentry.ucr.edu [138.23.226.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD8643D2D for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 03:37:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from beyert@cs.ucr.edu) Received: from aeonrem (adsl-67-114-244-79.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.114.244.79]) by sentry.ucr.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.8-GR) with ESMTP id AUJ59384 (AUTH tbeye001) for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 03:37:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002a01c3d449$727cd2b0$650a0a0a@aeonrem> From: "Timothy Beyer" To: Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 03:37:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4927.1200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 11:37:41 -0000 Brett Glass wrote: >FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux in the area = of >advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption) Granted, this is true. However, you should be more specific when you=20 refer to advocacy. When I think of the term "advocacy," blind, = relentless=20 loyalty comes to mind. This is one of the things that bothers me about=20 Linux in particular, since it seems to have the most "advocates" of any = OS=20 that I have used. Linux Users and Developers [in the "advocate" = category]=20 insist Linux is "superior" to other offerings, (usually windows, when in = actuality, its strengths are quite different) quite often without = stating, or even=20 understanding what exactly constitutes these "superior" qualities of the = operating system. This comes across to most people as zealotry, and as = a=20 result, people will think less of the hard work done by the developers, = many=20 of whom would only express an opinion that they fully understood. Quite = frankly, it was this type of behavior in the Linux community that kept = me=20 away from using non-proprietary operating systems for a long, long time. Yes, you are correct that more people need to promote *BSD, the BSD = license, etc, but I think the term "advocate" implies the wrong emphasis. Keep = the elitism at the minimum, or else the majority will take it the wrong way. Blind faith could potentially hinder corporate acceptance, though it = would be unlikely to encourage it. >Many of the developers actually have an antipathy toward advocacy, >since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too manypeople = to >adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd their "sandbox." Yes, thats quite true of FreeBSD developers. While these individuals = are typically rational, productive individuals, they most likely don't = produce the required volume of noise to give a name to FreeBSD. However, it is = nice to know that people exist who put money where their mouth is; I don't = see that in some other free software communities. --Tim From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 05:17:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5F416A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from sentry.ucr.edu (sentry.ucr.edu [138.23.226.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E058843D54 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:17:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from beyert@cs.ucr.edu) Received: from aeonrem (adsl-67-114-244-79.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.114.244.79]) by sentry.ucr.edu (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.8-GR) with ESMTP id AUJ61592 (AUTH tbeye001) for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:17:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00ac01c3d457$5577be60$650a0a0a@aeonrem> From: "Timothy Beyer" To: Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:16:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4927.1200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Re: Personal patches and simple mutual respect X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:17:05 -0000 > Rush Limbaugh doesn't add anything to FreeBSD, but nor > do the following: > Al Franken, Michael Moore, Janeane Garafolo, Sean Hannity, > Dr Laura, Neil Boortz, Alan Colmes, James Carville etc... > Right on. I find many of these individuals equally offensive, if not = far more so than Rush Limbaugh. Perhaps Rush is no source of insight, but if his fortunes are removed, = why not remove the fortunes of all of the previously named individuals? Why not? Because then it just becomes a game of "lets remove everyone whom I disagree with." I really don't see a reason to remove these fortunes, though it seems to indicate the situation at large: fortune files should be divided into categories as optional ports. --Tim From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 05:31:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7050616A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-68-76-19-75.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net (adsl-68-76-19-75.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net [68.76.19.75]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEEAA43D1F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:31:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luke@foolishgames.com) Received: from [192.168.2.49] (adsl-67-36-56-113.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net [67.36.56.113]) (authenticated bits=0)ESMTP id i06DVdxL041954; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:31:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from luke@foolishgames.com) X-Authentication-Warning: adsl-68-76-19-75.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net: Host adsl-67-36-56-113.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net [67.36.56.113] claimed to be [192.168.2.49] In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Lucas Holt Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:31:54 -0500 To: Brett Glass X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) cc: Maxim Hermion cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Munden, Randall J" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:31:47 -0000 Experienced programmers can be leaders very effectively if they get feedback regularly from users. Its part of software development to communicate with users. Provided the leadership listens to users requirements, and acts in that interest there is no problem. In reality, there are several types of users of FreeBSD including: Programmers System Administrators College Students (i fit in the first 3 groups) Hobbyists and young people who heard its like linux (lol) (sorry if i left your group out) Lucas Holt From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 05:50:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F44116A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:50:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from deluge.umist.ac.uk (deluge.umist.ac.uk [130.88.120.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6238443D54; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:50:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lewiz@black.lewiz.org) Received: from lh014.halls.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.163.14] helo=yellow.lewiz.org) by deluge.umist.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AdrbE-0005aX-Hl; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:50:24 +0000 Received: from ip31.lewiz.org ([192.168.0.31] helo=black.lewiz.org) by mail.lewiz.org with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1Adrc4-0001X4-Jq; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:51:16 +0000 Received: (nullmailer pid 4699 invoked by uid 4001); Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:50:59 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:50:59 +0000 From: Lewis Thompson To: Maxim Hermion Message-ID: <20040106135058.GA4419@lewiz.org> References: <20040105183003.731F644AD5@server1.messagingengine.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040105183003.731F644AD5@server1.messagingengine.com> X-GPG-Fingerprint: 90A4 939E 3847 A3E4 8103 2A48 22DA B428 542F ED3F X-GPG-Info: http://www.westwood.karoo.net/pgpkey / horowitz.surfnet.nl User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:50:34 -0000 --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 10:30:03AM -0800, Maxim Hermion wrote: > I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 > years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds" >=20 > Sincerely, > Maxim Hermion > FreeBSD committer Dare I ask for some form of proof this is you? Later on you say you can't use your real name but you don't think that anybody is stupid enough to not notice the similarity in your name? How about a signed reply? -lewiz. --=20 I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. --Bob Dylan, 1964. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -| msn:purple@lewiz.net | jabber:lewiz@jabber.org | url:www.lewiz.org |- --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+r1CItq0KFQv7T8RAtPlAJ9VinJSgJ7E994xhgmyw3tfuODpiQCg9gef f9diOSf0z2//v1Lwz5Jc0Fs= =g5c9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 06:24:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353E016A4D0; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 06:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368F643D55; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 06:24:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBA53D28; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:24:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 09:24:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3FFA7EB7.32065.F25158B9@localhost> Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Chello blocking FreshPorts service X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 14:24:10 -0000 For some months Chello has denied smtp service from the FreshPorts mail server. All queries to Chello regarding this matter have gone unanswered. $ telnet smtpgate.chello.at 25 Trying 213.46.255.2... Connected to smtpgate.chello.at. Escape character is '^]'. 421 viefep12-int.chello.at connection refused from [66.154.97.250] Connection closed by foreign host. This happens for all Chello domains I have tried. This means that Chello users are unable to use the FreshPorts notification service. For what it's worth, this also affect the FreeBSD Diary announcement mailing list. If anyone has contacts at Chello, please ask them to look into this. All attempts to get this resolved have been blocked. I've heard many stories about Chello standards of service. This situation validates everything I've heard. cheers -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 08:56:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8DC16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:56:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E9C43D2F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:56:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 745B3530A; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:56:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 8C7915308; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:56:09 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 359FF33C9A; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:56:09 +0100 (CET) To: Juli Mallett References: <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> <20040105183315.GA99773@FreeBSD.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:56:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040105183315.GA99773@FreeBSD.org> (Juli Mallett's message of "Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:33:15 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: crap@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 16:56:19 -0000 Juli Mallett writes: > [...] just remember that a meeting of peoples > who disagree, who are different, who ... is pretty much undeniably > one of the things that does make America great. America is great? DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:05:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D47616A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:05:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnsmail2.umb.com (dnsmail2.umb.com [198.136.201.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DBB543D48; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:05:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Randall.Munden@umb.com) Received: from y8107a.umb.corp.umb.com (viruswall2.umb.com [192.168.3.213]) by dnsmail2.umb.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i06H5LPC022462; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:05:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com ([172.19.51.30]) by y8107a with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 11:05:21 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:05:20 -0600 Message-ID: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Where is FreeBSD going? Thread-Index: AcPUWLYKkL+Xg77+TIC8yzx3CA6VhAAGm+MQ From: "Munden, Randall J" To: "Brett Glass" , , cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:05:25 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Glass [mailto:brett@lariat.org]=20 > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 9:16 PM > To: Munden, Randall J; chris@randomcamel.net;=20 > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? >=20 >=20 > At 04:00 PM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: >=20 > >I think this is what is on my mind these days. I'm=20 > preparing to load=20 > >up some machines for production soon (I've already put it=20 > off for too=20 > >long waiting for 5-STABLE) and I don't like what I'm seeing -- with=20 > >both the mud slinging here and the performance in the lab (mostly=20 > >anecdotal). >=20 > I don't think that *this* conversation is mud slinging.=20 > What's happening on Slashdot, on the other hand, is. Right, I typed that wrong. This conversation certainly isn't mud slinging -- open, honest discussion can do nothing but good [no=20 matter the outcome]. Honestly, I picked up the troll thread because I'm curious as to=20 why someone would commit so much time in effort to trolling=20 these lists. In my experience it's a good idea to explore the=20 reasoning behind that type of dedication (faulty or not) for no other reason that discovery. On-the-other-hand some people=20 accuse me of being obsessive about information. /me shrugs All I can do now is apologize for 'feeding the troll' or rather,=20 sorry for calling attention to a subject that may be painful,=20 clich=E9 or overused to others. >=20 > >>=20 > >> FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux > >> in the area of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption).=20 > >> Again, this is a governance=20 > >> issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy=20 > >> toward advocacy,=20 > >> since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too=20 > >> many people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd=20 > >> their "sandbox." So, some of the criticism is actually valid. > > > >I noticed it too but I just chalked it up to being crazy=20 > busy and not=20 > >paying much attention. >=20 > Nope, it's not because you're too busy. It's true. FreeBSD is=20 > getting fewer mentions in the mainstream press, and fewer=20 > commercial apps, lately. Linux is mentioned as if it was the=20 > ONLY alternative to Windows. Work is needed to raise=20 > FreeBSD's profile. Which leads me to query, given limited time an resources, what can=20 I do? I've moved many a production server to fBSD over the=20 last 10 or so years -- some of them literally -- by blathering=20 nonstop about the virtues of the OS. So what else is there? Do I=20 need to start writing documentation or publishing and pimping more=20 Howtos on the intarweb? Should I brush up on my C and start patching? Frankly, I'd never given thought to providing more effort. The OS=20 has always done it's own advocacy in my experience. >=20 > --Brett >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list=20 > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/free> bsd-hackers > To=20 > unsubscribe, send any mail to=20 > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:07:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE14B16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.omnis.com (smtp.omnis.com [216.239.128.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819B043D1F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:07:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.homeunix.net (66-91-236-204.san.rr.com [66.91.236.204]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30855B6D1; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:07:34 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr To: Brett Glass , "Munden, Randall J" , "Maxim Hermion" , Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:07:34 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401060907.34459.wes@softweyr.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:07:39 -0000 On Monday 05 January 2004 11:14 am, Brett Glass wrote: > I'd like to see a more open and inclusive form of governance for > FreeBSD. The current system of governance has, as its underlying > assumption, that the most prolific coders make the best leaders. > In my personal experience, this isn't a valid assumption. System > administrators and end users have a big stake in FreeBSD, and are > just as likely (perhaps more likely) to be good leaders for the > project. The current system of governance is open and inclusive of those who have demonstrated the talent, ability, and willingness to be contributors to FreeBSD. The current core team is made up of a mix of big-time coders like Peter and Warner, and small-time coders like myself (now slightly below middle of the pack on commits) and a variety of other skills. I strongly encourage all FreeBSD committers to continuously watch for people who might be good core team members. Watch for leadership, for a sense of fair play, and for the ability to steer FreeBSD, from both technical and organizational viewpoints. Look for someone with 'the big picture,' and a vision of where FreeBSD is headed that you share. Somebody whose viewpoint doesn't extend beyond the virtual memory system, for instance, may be critical to the success of a kernel, but that doesn't necessarily make them the best person to steer a complex product that brings 10,000 applications along with it. We don't appear to have anyone like that on core now, and I doubt we will in the future. Programmers, system administrators, end users, and anyone else who wants to contribute to FreeBSD are welcome to contribute in whatever way they can. Anyone can file a PR about any aspect of the system they find troubling, or delightful, or have a better way of doing. Strike up a relationship with a committer or two (or twenty), let your ability and willingness to work be known, and become a committer too. 400 or so of your peers have already done it. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:22:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C728A16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from woozle.rinet.ru (woozle.rinet.ru [195.54.192.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A1643D3F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:22:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marck@rinet.ru) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by woozle.rinet.ru (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06HLvNq038281; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:21:57 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from marck@rinet.ru) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:21:57 +0300 (MSK) From: Dmitry Morozovsky To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <200401060907.34459.wes@softweyr.com> Message-ID: <20040106201826.T35394@woozle.rinet.ru> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <200401060907.34459.wes@softweyr.com> X-NCC-RegID: ru.rinet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Maxim Hermion cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Munden, Randall J" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:22:09 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Wes Peters wrote: WP> Programmers, system administrators, end users, and anyone else who wants WP> to contribute to FreeBSD are welcome to contribute in whatever way they WP> can. Anyone can file a PR about any aspect of the system they find WP> troubling, or delightful, or have a better way of doing. Strike up a WP> relationship with a committer or two (or twenty), let your ability and WP> willingness to work be known, and become a committer too. 400 or so of WP> your peers have already done it. marck@woozle:~/FreeBSD> cat CVSROOT*/access* | sort -u | grep -c '^[a-z]' 327 While you're absolutely right with the whole pic, the mob of people currently wearing a commit bit is 25% smaller ;) Sincerely, D.Marck [DM5020, MCK-RIPE, DM3-RIPN] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *** Dmitry Morozovsky --- D.Marck --- Wild Woozle --- marck@rinet.ru *** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:23:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90DAD16A4D0; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.omnis.com (smtp.omnis.com [216.239.128.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD5143D58; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:22:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.homeunix.net (66-91-236-204.san.rr.com [66.91.236.204]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C68172DD7; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:22:46 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr To: "Munden, Randall J" , "Brett Glass" , , Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:22:47 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401060922.47152.wes@softweyr.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:23:00 -0000 On Tuesday 06 January 2004 09:05 am, Munden, Randall J wrote: > > Honestly, I picked up the troll thread because I'm curious as to > why someone would commit so much time in effort to trolling > these lists. In my experience it's a good idea to explore the > reasoning behind that type of dedication (faulty or not) for no > other reason that discovery. On-the-other-hand some people > accuse me of being obsessive about information. /me shrugs People who hate rarely require rational reasons for hating. Attempting to apply logic to that which is not logical is not likely to produce useful results. > Which leads me to query, given limited time an resources, what can > I do? I've moved many a production server to fBSD over the > last 10 or so years -- some of them literally -- by blathering > nonstop about the virtues of the OS. So what else is there? Do I > need to start writing documentation or publishing and pimping more > Howtos on the intarweb? Should I brush up on my C and start patching? Yes, to all of the above. Pick the one(s) you enjoy most, or that you wish to learn most, and dig in. Best of all would be to write or fix some code, or write some articles that get printed on dead trees -- what Brett likes to call 'the mainstream press.' You know, those things the IT management leaves on the floor of the mens room. > Frankly, I'd never given thought to providing more effort. The OS > has always done it's own advocacy in my experience. Advocacy is important only if you want to conquer the world. Brett apparently does; many of us just want an operating system that meets our needs, and don't particularly care what somebody else uses. IMO, casual 'desktop' or 'laptop' computer users are probably better served by Mac OS X than anything I want to turn FreeBSD into, which is why my 68 year old father is a Mac owner. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:25:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1256516A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0.dmpriest.net.uk (mx0.dmpriest.net.uk [62.13.128.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA15343D3F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:25:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kpielorz@tdx.co.uk) Received: from raptor (kpielorz.dmpriest.net.uk [62.13.130.13]) by mx0.dmpriest.net.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6/Kp) with ESMTP id i06HMcW60894 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:22:38 GMT Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:25:28 +0000 From: Karl Pielorz To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <92871984.1073409928@raptor> In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:25:32 -0000 --On 06 January 2004 11:05 -0600 "Munden, Randall J" wrote: > Frankly, I'd never given thought to providing more effort. The OS > has always done it's own advocacy in my experience. I think that has long been a FreeBSD weakness. While the Linux crowd have gained a certain momentum as far as publicity etc. goes - FreeBSD, "just works". It's public image is kind of akin to it's actual spec. You install it, it runs, it does the work - it doesn't complain. Personally (and from a company point of view) we're happy with FreeBSD, where it is - how it got there, and where it's going... Amongst most people I know who use FreeBSD - they actually consider the lack of 'noise & shouting' and clutter as a bonus and value the slow - but stable approach to releases. Again these are probably things that don't do it's image to the non-user a lot of good, for all the wrong reasons :) -Karl From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:28:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5CC16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3134D43D4C; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:28:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 0D9CF530A; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:28:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 31E335308; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:28:24 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id B8B6D33C9A; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:28:23 +0100 (CET) To: "Munden, Randall J" References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:28:23 +0100 In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> (Randall J. Munden's message of "Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:43:08 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: Maxim Hermion cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:28:43 -0000 "Munden, Randall J" writes: > This makes me wonder if it isn't time for a new -core. No, just a better email filter. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:33:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E19B16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:33:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAFD043D39; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:33:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28169; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:33:48 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040106103321.048a0f98@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 10:33:46 -0700 To: des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav), Juli Mallett From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: References: <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> <20040105183315.GA99773@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: crap@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:33:55 -0000 At 09:56 AM 1/6/2004, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >America is great? It's where BSD originated, isn't it? ;-) --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:34:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F9516A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:34:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0453443D46 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:34:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.166] helo=localhost) by tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Adv5k-0000Q9-Iw for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:34:08 +0000 Received: from rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.165]) by localhost (scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 01531-03 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:34:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.161.253]) by rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Adv5k-0000Q3-5V for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:34:08 +0000 Received: (qmail 23287 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jan 2004 17:34:08 -0000 Received: from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk by gateway by uid 71 with qmail-scanner-1.16 (sweep: 2.14/3.71. spamassassin: 2.53. Clear:. Processed in 1.615846 secs); 06 Jan 2004 17:34:08 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk via gateway X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.16 (Clear:. Processed in 1.615846 secs) Received: from dhcp1131.wadham.ox.ac.uk (HELO piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (163.1.161.131) by gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk with SMTP; 6 Jan 2004 17:34:06 -0000 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.1.20040106173041.042e65e0@imap.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@imap.sfu.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:33:39 +0000 To: Dmitry Morozovsky From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20040106201826.T35394@woozle.rinet.ru> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <200401060907.34459.wes@softweyr.com> <20040106201826.T35394@woozle.rinet.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: Wes Peters cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:34:12 -0000 At 17:21 06/01/2004, Dmitry Morozovsky wrote: >On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Wes Peters wrote: >WP> become a committer too. 400 or so of >WP> your peers have already done it. > >marck@woozle:~/FreeBSD> cat CVSROOT*/access* | sort -u | grep -c '^[a-z]' >327 > >While you're absolutely right with the whole pic, the mob of people >currently wearing a commit bit is 25% smaller ;) I count 68 people listed as "development team alumni", which would bring the total up to 395 people who have become -- if not necessarily remained -- committers. I'd be willing to bet that there's another 5 people somewhere, as well. :) Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:35:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B587116A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD5C43D46; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:35:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Adv6v-0008VY-NB; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:35:21 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:35:16 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:35:26 -0000 Munden, Randall J wrote: >Right, I typed that wrong. This conversation certainly isn't mud >slinging -- open, honest discussion can do nothing but good [no >matter the outcome]. > The cleverness of the "troll" was: 1. It was written by somebody who at the least had read these lists for at least the last two years 2. It aired the real frustrations of those of us without commit bits 3. It was on the whole, apart from the personal attacks, reasonably correct. >Which leads me to query, given limited time an resources, what can >I do? I've moved many a production server to fBSD over the >last 10 or so years -- some of them literally -- by blathering >nonstop about the virtues of the OS. So what else is there? Do I >need to start writing documentation or publishing and pimping more >Howtos on the intarweb? Should I brush up on my C and start patching? > And therein lies a problem. The only thing any of the committers cares about is what they think. Got a problem? Submit a patch. Don't like the way things are done? Submit a patch. Don't like how such-and-such a util works? Submit a patch. Except, when Matt Dillon did submit, he was told to back out his changes and then lost his commit bit. This was because there was an "imminent commit" due from somebody working on SMP, which still isn't finished really. As for users, sysadmins, people who through advocacy go about sourcing funding, sponsorship, support? They "don't matter". It's the first time I've seen a software project where users are almost actively despised. Sometimes I get confused and think I must be reading an OpenBSD list instead - that's how they do it over there, and that's why I haven't run OBSD for 4 years. In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core and many with a commit bit will resent you for it, because you're just a user. Who cares about users? This is their project after all. And yeah, people will think I'm trolling, but I'm not. I'm just not happy with the way non-programmers are treated. My perogative, but as the project is defined as being a group of developers, it's not my project and therefore my opinion is worthless. Ask yourself this: What is the core goal of the FreeBSD project? To produce the "best" in it's class? Best for who? Developers? Are you a developer? Maybe it's not the OS for you then unfortunately. Personally, unless the madness around SMP, the 5- branch and various other bits are ironed out, I can see my next server deployment making use of DragonFly. At least they listen to people who don't submit patches due to the limitations of time/skill/whatever. No, I'm not a Matt fan - I like and respect most on -core and others. I just think 5- has got... well, it's all a bit out of hand really, isn't it? All they had to do was ask a few sysadmins and end users what they thought. All of this could have been avoided nearly 2 years ago. Just my tuppence worth, which few are interested in, but ho-hum. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:36:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46A0D16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:36:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F356843D60 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:36:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28228; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:36:36 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040106103434.0496b008@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 10:36:34 -0700 To: jsd@jdyson.com From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <200401060744.i067iPov010982@dyson.jdyson.com> References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105205449.04737818@localhost> <200401060744.i067iPov010982@dyson.jdyson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches and simple mutual respect X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:36:52 -0000 At 12:44 AM 1/6/2004, jsd@jdyson.com wrote: > > It's Limbaugh who's hateful. As well as deserving of the other > > epithets you mention above. > >Rather than discuss the merits or disadvantages of Limbaugh, >your own vehemence is EXACTLY the reason why it is inappropriate >to let too much political commentary poison the atmosphere >in FreeBSD. Exactly. The concern is not that Limbaugh is on the political left or on the political right but that he is hateful and vindictive. He derides others and their viewpoints. THIS is why he has no place in FreeBSD. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:47:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FDAB16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net (imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.59.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A894C43D39 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:47:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aacf1qb02@sneakemail.com) Received: from vwinxp.sneakemail.com ([68.19.84.61]) by imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.netESMTP <20040106174743.RFKB1951.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net@vwinxp.sneakemail.com> for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:47:43 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20040106124637.01b8af30@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: Private E-Mail User X-Mailer: Secure Internet E-Mail v1.0 Beta Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 12:47:35 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton In-Reply-To: References: <20040105183315.GA99773@FreeBSD.org> <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> <20040105183315.GA99773@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Organization: ThreeSpace Corporation Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:47:45 -0000 At 11:56 AM 1/6/2004, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >Juli Mallett writes: > > [...] just remember that a meeting of peoples > > who disagree, who are different, who ... is pretty much undeniably > > one of the things that does make America great. > >America is great? Yes. >DES >-- >Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 10:01:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A77F416A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E59C43D1F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:01:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AdvUT-0008a2-Q8; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:59:41 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFAF788.9020906@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:59:36 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <200401060922.47152.wes@softweyr.com> In-Reply-To: <200401060922.47152.wes@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Munden, Randall J" cc: chris@randomcamel.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:01:15 -0000 Wes Peters wrote: >People who hate rarely require rational reasons for hating. Attempting to >apply logic to that which is not logical is not likely to produce useful >results. > Incorrect. Everybody who hates believes they have a rational reason for doing so. That others do not think that those reasons are rational is why hatred increases, and why ultimately, Europe has, on the whole and recently (last 60 years) in a more fragmented fashion, spent the last 2,000 years at war. But that's another issue. >Advocacy is important only if you want to conquer the world. Brett >apparently does; many of us just want an operating system that meets our >needs, and don't particularly care what somebody else uses. IMO, casual >'desktop' or 'laptop' computer users are probably better served by Mac OS >X than anything I want to turn FreeBSD into, which is why my 68 year old >father is a Mac owner. > And that's all well and good. But if you don't consult end-users in general, you're going down a slippery slope. Do not be suprised if after years of hard work when you finally -RELEASE, if the world of end-users sidles up to you at the launch party and whispers in your ear "You realise what you've produced is a pile of shit, right?" - you never listened to what they wanted, and so not suprisingly you missed it. If you don't have a set of aims to measure by, it's oh so easy to claim success when all the outsiders think you've spent too much time on the crack pipe. All I'm suggesting (and no, I'm not the troll, but I'd thank him, whoever he is), is that maybe the Theo de Raadt school of thought that "only developers count" is not a grown-up, mature and efficient system of software development when we all have definite goals in mind. Nobody is asking anybody to work for free. I'm suggesting that non-developers can assist developers in refining the project's goals, aims, direction and make sure that the work the developers carry out is the best possible. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 10:19:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3605D16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:19:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnsmail2.umb.com (dnsmail2.umb.com [198.136.201.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34AB43D5F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:19:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Randall.Munden@umb.com) Received: from y8107a.umb.corp.umb.com (viruswall2.umb.com [192.168.3.213]) by dnsmail2.umb.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i06IJHPC019689; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:19:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com ([172.19.51.30]) by y8107a with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 12:19:16 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:19:16 -0600 Message-ID: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F6@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Where is FreeBSD going? Thread-Index: AcPUed1J6u48cR1wQDuVfDPOPnhfxQAB008g From: "Munden, Randall J" To: "Wes Peters" , X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-25.0 required=6.0 tests=Relay2_out autolearn=no version=2.60 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on dnsmail2.umb.com cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:19:53 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Wes Peters [mailto:wes@softweyr.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 11:23 AM > To: Munden, Randall J; Brett Glass; chris@randomcamel.net;=20 > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? >=20 >=20 > On Tuesday 06 January 2004 09:05 am, Munden, Randall J wrote: > > > > Honestly, I picked up the troll thread because I'm curious as to why > > someone would commit so much time in effort to trolling these lists. > > In my experience it's a good idea to explore the reasoning behind that=20 > > type of dedication (faulty or not) for no other reason that discovery. =20 > > On-the-other-hand some people accuse me of being obsessive about=20 > > information. /me shrugs >=20 > People who hate rarely require rational reasons for hating. =20 > Attempting to=20 > apply logic to that which is not logical is not likely to=20 > produce useful=20 > results. >=20 Correct. s/reasoning/root cause/ That's what I intended. > --=20 >=20 > Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? >=20 > Wes Peters =20 > wes@softweyr.com >=20 >=20 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 10:22:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B4616A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.jdyson.com (dsl-static-206-246-160-137.iquest.net [206.246.160.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 348A943D62 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:21:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.jdyson.com) Received: from dyson.jdyson.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dyson.jdyson.com (8.12.8/8.9.3) with ESMTP id i06ILm7e011909; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:21:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.jdyson.com) Received: (from toor@localhost) by dyson.jdyson.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i06ILmmX011908; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:21:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200401061821.i06ILmmX011908@dyson.jdyson.com> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040106103434.0496b008@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Jan 6, 2004 10:36:34 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:21:48 -0500 (EST) From: jsd@jdyson.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: jsd@jdyson.com Subject: Re: Personal patches and simple mutual respect X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsd@jdyson.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:22:11 -0000 Brett Glass said: > At 12:44 AM 1/6/2004, jsd@jdyson.com wrote: > > > > It's Limbaugh who's hateful. As well as deserving of the other > > > epithets you mention above. > > > >Rather than discuss the merits or disadvantages of Limbaugh, > >your own vehemence is EXACTLY the reason why it is inappropriate > >to let too much political commentary poison the atmosphere > >in FreeBSD. > > Exactly. The concern is not that Limbaugh is on the political > left or on the political right but that he is hateful and > vindictive. He derides others and their viewpoints. THIS is why > he has no place in FreeBSD. > Again, you seem to talk past my statement. It is NOT Limbaughs opinions, or even his style, that make him wrong for FreeBSD. His subjects are OFF TOPIC for FreeBSD and unnecessarily motivates emotional discussion on divisive subjects. You are a poster child for the reason why CURRENT political commentators' opinions aren't appropriate for FreeBSD. Your own vehement reaction is equally felt by those who dislike other people on the "list" (but perhaps kept their criticizing comments to themselves.) Instead of creating an opt-in or opt-out list, it is best to expunge all *divisive* CURRENT political commentary. This isn't justified by truth or dishonesty by the commentator, but because of the unnecessarily negative and off-topic doctorinare responses to diverse opinion. THERE ARE PLENTY OF FORUMS FOR POLITICAL DISCUSSION, FreeBSD is obviously a poor choice for such discussion. Justifying removal IS NOT because of dislike of an individual style. The removal is justified because the subjects are OFF TOPIC, and encourage alot of overly partisan ranting. If I liked Al Franken, and found that someone was getting-off on hateful talk against him, started because of some of his quotes being included in FreeBSD, then I'd suggest removing Al's commentary. This isn't because of agreement/disagreement with Al, but it is because of the silly and divisive responses. I didn't suggest 'removal' because I agreed with/disaggreed with Rush, Michael Moore, Al Franken, etc... It is because of the (somewhat immature) reactions to the mention of the political commentator. You might not like straightforward criticism as a style, I might not like subversive, occult or dishonestly portrayed divisiveness. We can find all kinds of opinions on these matters, and it is VERY MUCH BEST to avoid CURRENT POLITICAL COMMENTARY, or CURRENT LIFESTYLE COMMENTARY. Nowadays, hate speech seems to be stimulated too easily, and it has NO BENEFIT for the FreeBSD project (IMO). The list of people that I provided (only a partial list, and only meant as examples): Al Franken, Michael Moore, Janeane Garafolo, Sean Hannity, Dr Laura, Neil Boortz, Alan Colmes, James Carville etc... Are all generally equally off topic. It isn't wrong to be intolerant of, or embracing of their ideas, but their subjects are mostly off topic for FreeBSD. John From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 11:22:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149C016A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw.catspoiler.org (217-ip-163.nccn.net [209.79.217.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEEEC43D3F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:22:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (mousie.catspoiler.org [192.168.101.2]) by gw.catspoiler.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i06JMD7E014616; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:22:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200401061922.i06JMD7E014616@gw.catspoiler.org> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:22:13 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis To: brett@lariat.org In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105134236.03b51cc0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: Randall.Munden@umb.com cc: chris@randomcamel.net cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:22:26 -0000 On 5 Jan, Brett Glass wrote: > It's probably one of the Slashdot "BSD is dead" trolls. The fact is, though, > that there ARE things about FreeBSD that could stand improvement. These > days, when I build a box, I am torn between using FreeBSD 5.x -- which is > not ready for prime time but is at least being worked on actively -- and > using 4.9, which isn't as stable as it should be because the developers > broke the cardinal rule of making radical changes to -STABLE. This *is* > a real issue for those of us who are admins. The worst breakage of 4-STABLE in recent memory was the PAE commit, which I got the impression was driven by end-user demand. Probably folks who had expensive systems with > 4GB of RAM who wanted to be able to run 4-STABLE production systems and make use of all that RAM right now and not wait for 5.x to become production-worthy. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 11:23:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F78316A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:23:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9509A43D3F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:23:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06JMUUd088340; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:22:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i06JMUTS088337; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:22:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:22:29 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:23:53 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Paul Robinson wrote: > And therein lies a problem. The only thing any of the committers cares > about is what they think. Got a problem? Submit a patch. Don't like the > way things are done? Submit a patch. Don't like how such-and-such a util > works? Submit a patch. While it's clearly the case that many people have met with the "submit a patch" response, that's probably more a property of time constraints from developers than a lack of desire to work with users to produce a system users want. Many FreeBSD developers find FreeBSD of particular appeal because it gives them a chance to produce a system they've always wanted to use: one that addresses the frustrations of many other systems out there. For example, a fair number of FreeBSD developers have their time funded by Internet Service Providers who appreciate the scalability, performance, and mangeability of FreeBSD when deployed on tens of thousands of machines. They bring changes to FreeBSD regularly reflecting those needs. Many FreeBSD developers do hang out in the public IRC channels and try to answer questions, hang out on questions@, stable@, etc. Sometimes, you post a question and get the answer "That doesn't work yet, but we're looking for a few good developers...", but frequently, you also get a patch and "If you could try this and see if it helps with your problem..." Obviously, the harder question you ask, the more likely you'll get "We're looking for a few good developers..." :-). The marketting department of Microsoft may be able to keep their less user-friendly developers from talking to their users, but many people would argue that one of the greatest benefits of open source is increasing that communication, even if it means the unwashed developers talk to real people once in a while. A great many developers pick FreeBSD to work on because they're quite aware of what users of other systems have to deal with, and want to produce a system people can use. But no one is paying the bills for hand-holding, so unless people step up to do the hand holding (thanks greatly to those who do!) it's not going to happen. We'd appreciate your help in making it happen, if that's something that strikes you as done wrong or poorly. As with any commercial software development enterprise, we also have limited resources, but unlike a commercial software development enterprise, we can help involve a much larger community in building and supporting a product. > Personally, unless the madness around SMP, the 5- branch and various > other bits are ironed out, I can see my next server deployment making > use of DragonFly. At least they listen to people who don't submit > patches due to the limitations of time/skill/whatever. No, I'm not a > Matt fan - I like and respect most on -core and others. I just think 5- > has got... well, it's all a bit out of hand really, isn't it? The reality is that operating system development takes a lot of time, energy, and expertise. We can't pull a next generation operating system out of hats overnight -- it takes literally hundreds of man years of work to do. It's not something one, three, or even ten people can do alone. FreeBSD 5.x remains a work in progress, but has made a lot of progress in the right direction. I think what you think of as "madness" is a necessary step on the path of a major engineering project. I can't think of any major project I've seen where at some point, people haven't taken a pause for a breather saying "Oh my god -- what have we gotten ourselves into". On the other hand, I think referring to it as "madness" dismisses years of hard work by a great many competent and dedicated developers. A year ago, M:N threading was extremely far from productionability -- today, it's on the cusp of being there, with higher performance and increasingly high reliability. It's almost ready for 5-STABLE. There's substantial on-going work on SMP, with a huge investment of time and energy into the network stack, VM system, VFS, process support, scheduling, etc. These are areas where the primary feedback today is going to be "stability and performance", and believe me, we're listening. All the FreeBSD developers I correspond with regularly run FreeBSD 5 on their desktops, on their servers, in their appliances, etc, to make sure we keep shaking out problems. Many companies have production products based on 5.x, and their feedback (and contributions) have been valuable. We've also invested substantial efforts in areas like compiler toolchains, standards compliance, not to mention new features. 5.x is, at long last, starting to land; it will take about one more minor version number to get there, we believe, but it is in dramatically better shape than it was a year or two ago. As I said above: writing operating systems isn't a small task. Companies invest tens (hundreds) of millions of dollars writing and maintaining operating systems, and (net across developers, if you actually bill for the volunteer hours), you're probably talking about the same. I think it's disingenous to dismiss the level of work put into FreeBSD 5.x -- this stuff is hard, folks! > All they had to do was ask a few sysadmins and end users what they > thought. All of this could have been avoided nearly 2 years ago. FreeBSD consumers asked for high performance threading, better SMP support, features like NFSv4, the ability to run without fsck, better security, NSS, and better C++ support. FreeBSD 5.x provides many (all?) of those. The biggest problem with FreeBSD 5.x was biting off a lot, not biting off enough. We looked at the large set of desirable tasks, and to some extent gotten bitten by the change in economy. It's easy to look back in retrospect and say "well, maybe a bit more investment here, and a bit less there", but it's a lot harder to make the changes after hindsight kicks in. The FreeBSD Project has changed the way we've developed as a result of lessons learned: we aren't introducing major new features at this point, with almost all major development in the "honing" department, currently. And that's chafing too: many FreeBSD developers like working on FreeBSD as an opportunity to create Big New Things, and want to keep doing that at a time where we're putting the breaks on Big New Things to produce a productionable result. But I guess that acts as motivation to get the current set of tasks in the air landed well :-). Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 11:33:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6855716A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:33:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E19B243D48; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:33:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i06JWhxe072526; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:33:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> <20040105183315.GA99773@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:54:37 +0100 To: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: Juli Mallett cc: crap@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:33:10 -0000 At 5:56 PM +0100 2004/01/06, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >> [...] just remember that a meeting of peoples >> who disagree, who are different, who ... is pretty much undeniably >> one of the things that does make America great. > > America is great? No. It has been turned into a police state. Prepare to be fingerprinted. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 11:33:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E7416A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:33:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00FDB43D3F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:33:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i06JWhxg072526; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:33:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:13:21 +0100 To: Paul Robinson From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:33:17 -0000 At 5:35 PM +0000 2004/01/06, Paul Robinson wrote: > The cleverness of the "troll" was: > > 1. It was written by somebody who at the least had read these lists > for at least the last two years Maybe. It would be easy enough to skim the archives. > 2. It aired the real frustrations of those of us without commit bits Define "us". You sure as hell aren't speaking for me. > 3. It was on the whole, apart from the personal attacks, reasonably > correct. Evidence, please. > And therein lies a problem. The only thing any of the committers > cares about is what they think. Got a problem? Submit a patch. > Don't like the way things are done? Submit a patch. Don't like > how such-and-such a util works? Submit a patch. Not at all true. Mark Murray (among others) has stressed the need for people with different talents to contribute to the project. We need more people who can help us do proper QA. We need more people who can help us write good documentation. We need people who have a lot of skills that are not necessarily related at all to writing code. If you have a set of skills that you think could be useful, please contact Mark or one of the other members of -core to find out how you might be able to contribute to the project. Otherwise, if you're not willing to try to put your money where your mouth is, then please shut up. > Except, when Matt Dillon did submit, he was told to back out > his changes and then lost his commit bit. This was because > there was an "imminent commit" due from somebody working on > SMP, which still isn't finished really. I have the greatest respect for Matt, but he has been a serious problem for the project for a long time. His technical disagreements with other members of the project are just one relatively minor aspect of those problems. His personality has been a much bigger issue. > In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core and > many with a commit bit will resent you for it, because you're > just a user. Who cares about users? This is their project after > all. If you want to feel like this is your project, then you need to find a way to take ownership of some part. See above. > Personally, unless the madness around SMP, the 5- branch and various > other bits are ironed out, I can see my next server deployment making > use of DragonFly. Please let us know how it turns out. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 11:43:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A7216A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0583543D1F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:43:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00178; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:43:10 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040106124028.03cd5f70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 12:43:09 -0700 To: "Timothy Beyer" , From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <002a01c3d449$727cd2b0$650a0a0a@aeonrem> References: <002a01c3d449$727cd2b0$650a0a0a@aeonrem> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:43:19 -0000 At 04:37 AM 1/6/2004, Timothy Beyer wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: >>FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux in the area of >>advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption) > >Granted, this is true. However, you should be more specific when you >refer to advocacy. When I think of the term "advocacy," blind, relentless >loyalty comes to mind. That's not the accepted definition. Though there is, of couse, some of that. >Yes, you are correct that more people need to promote *BSD, the BSD license, >etc, but I think the term "advocate" implies the wrong emphasis. "Advocate" literally means, "To speak in favor of." In other words, promotion. But let's not get tied up in definitions here. >>Many of the developers actually have an antipathy toward advocacy, >>since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too manypeople to >>adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd their "sandbox." > >Yes, thats quite true of FreeBSD developers. While these individuals are >typically rational, productive individuals, they most likely don't produce >the required volume of noise to give a name to FreeBSD. However, it is nice >to know that people exist who put money where their mouth is; I don't see >that in some other free software communities. Alas, the problem is that the FreeBSD developers do not attach appropriate value to advocacy. Contributions in the form of advocacy are virtually unvalued relative to contributions in the form of code. Linux is more successful than FreeBSD, in part, because it values both. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:00:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9E416A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:00:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.jdyson.com (dsl-static-206-246-160-137.iquest.net [206.246.160.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B39843D1F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:00:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.jdyson.com) Received: from dyson.jdyson.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dyson.jdyson.com (8.12.8/8.9.3) with ESMTP id i06K0i7e012185; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:00:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.jdyson.com) Received: (from toor@localhost) by dyson.jdyson.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i06K0hSI012184; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:00:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200401062000.i06K0hSI012184@dyson.jdyson.com> In-Reply-To: <200401060907.34459.wes@softweyr.com> from Wes Peters at "Jan 6, 2004 09:07:34 am" To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:00:43 -0500 (EST) From: jsd@jdyson.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Maxim Hermion cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Munden Randall J Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsd@jdyson.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:00:57 -0000 Wes Peters said: [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > On Monday 05 January 2004 11:14 am, Brett Glass wrote: > > I'd like to see a more open and inclusive form of governance for > > FreeBSD. The current system of governance has, as its underlying > > assumption, that the most prolific coders make the best leaders. > > In my personal experience, this isn't a valid assumption. System > > administrators and end users have a big stake in FreeBSD, and are > > just as likely (perhaps more likely) to be good leaders for the > > project. > > The current system of governance is open and inclusive of those who have > demonstrated the talent, ability, and willingness to be contributors to > FreeBSD. The current core team is made up of a mix of big-time coders > like Peter and Warner, and small-time coders like myself (now slightly > below middle of the pack on commits) and a variety of other skills. > ... > > Somebody whose viewpoint doesn't extend beyond the virtual memory system, > for instance, may be critical to the success of a kernel, but that > doesn't necessarily make them the best person to steer a complex product > that brings 10,000 applications along with it. > It is INTERESTING to comment on someone whose viewpoint doesn't extend beyond the VM system, because out of Greenman, me and even Matt Dillon, (and the extremely respected alc), I don't know of any people with a myopic VM viewpoint. An example of that might be Matts ability and succes dealing with the VERY IMPORTANT NFS issues, or perhaps my implementation of the vfs_bio merged cache, minimal-copy pipe code, kernel memory management improvements (which aren't really VM per se), early playing with the ATA driver, SIGNIFICANT filesystem work (e.g. the vastly improved LFS didnt' get installed because of softupdates making it redundant), careful rework of certain portions of low level code, and it is definitely ludicrous to claim that Greenman was VM myopic. The biggest problem that I currently see on the technical side has NOTHING to do with the individual competencies, but the SMP locking complexity issues that I had predicted would happen. By looking at the locking from the VFS, VM, IPC and hardware standpoints (I admittedly wasn't and STILL AM NOT competent on networking issues), it is very very clear that restructuring the system to support more coherent and orderly locking would make the system INFINITELY more maintainable. It might even be worthwhile to start a rearchitecting now, recognizing that there were important things learned during the current exercise. The VFS and VM systems have numerous interdependencies, due to the very desired specified coherency, desired modularity and natural control/data flow. EVEN THOUGH it is very possible to make superficial modifications to the traditional structure in order to support adequate SMP locking, the design will likely become unmaintainable for future improvements or restructuring, the structure will be susceptable to bit rot. The VFS, VM and scheduling mechanisms could have (with nominal effort) been upgraded to use more of a realtime kernel structure (while retaining the timesharing behavior when desirable.) Using tsleep or its derivatives for process blocking with control/data stack context being intermingled with sundry data structure (and subsystem) locks make for a design that will sustain a high priesthood for years. (A wonderful side-effect of breaking the tsleep/stack marriage, is that VFS layering can be much easier decoupled from the VM and VFS interaction and coherency issues.) This should also have positive consequences WRT network stack state... Perhaps a good first step would have been to progressively remove the dependency upon stack context during thread/process blocking. This has several interesting positive side effects... However, this definitely breaks from the sleep/wakeup paradigm. There are numerous ways to break the dependency on the stack context, and I am partial to using continuations along with a few other possible paradigms. I haven't looked into these issues for years, but there might be some schemes that are even more effective or architecturally 'clean.' All this said, I still think that FreeBSD is the best choice for a general purpose OS. It is good that the system still works smoothly under load (something that I tirelessly strived for), making sure that during heavy loading conditions that system latencies (while waiting on various internal resources) are minimized. FreeBSD is proof that system caching doesnt' have to be continually manually tuned for any normal configuration... John From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:01:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 803E916A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:01:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (zoot.blarg.net [206.124.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C243743D48 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:00:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6607F33D22 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06JvaLP064545 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:57:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i06Jvawt064544 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:57:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:57:36 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040106195735.GA63867@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <002a01c3d449$727cd2b0$650a0a0a@aeonrem> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002a01c3d449$727cd2b0$650a0a0a@aeonrem> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:01:07 -0000 --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, Timothy Beyer wrote: :Brett Glass wrote: :>FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux in the area of :>advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption) : :Granted, this is true. However, you should be more specific when you=20 :refer to advocacy. When I think of the term "advocacy," blind, relentless= =20 :loyalty comes to mind. This is one of the things that bothers me about=20 :Linux in particular, since it seems to have the most "advocates" of any OS= =20 :that I have used. Linux Users and Developers [in the "advocate" category]= =20 :insist Linux is "superior" to other offerings, (usually windows, when in= =20 :actuality, its strengths are quite different) quite often without stating,= or even=20 :understanding what exactly constitutes these "superior" qualities of the= =20 :operating system. This comes across to most people as zealotry, and as a= =20 :result, people will think less of the hard work done by the developers, ma= ny=20 :of whom would only express an opinion that they fully understood. Quite= =20 :frankly, it was this type of behavior in the Linux community that kept me= =20 :away from using non-proprietary operating systems for a long, long time. I empathize. Being alienated by platform twits has a damning effect. You can get the same deception from any community that surrounds a software platform, not just Linux. Apple, MS, Java, C, C++ advocates come to mind. Some are more knowlegable than others. The knowlegable ones can be just as bad. I had a similar problem with C. Back in the early 90's in Seattle there were a lot of technically adept but socially arrogant people who knew the language. They basically owned the programming subculture here. They worked at the big companies, and were lucky enough to get their compilers and knowledge for free, or nearly that. I don't know whether these people were advocates of anything other than themselves and their C-ness. But, when you would talk to them, they appeared to be honest in saying C was the language of choice for everything (aka DOS). Maybe this should be called advocacy in-place. Being an outsider who wanted to learn C, I had a very hard time getting information or tools to play with it. To get any information, I had to grovel to some abusive twerp on a BBS for a morsel of knowledge, or figure out how to save up 100's of dollars to buy a compiler suite=20 out of chump-change from restaurant jobs. The platform twerps turned me off to the language. When the tools and documentation became available to me ala Linux, I already had a full- blown aversion to learning it. Years later, I took a course in it. Now I know the big systems programming language of C is just a dinky pea-shooter of a language. And no great shakes to learn. So, it comforts me to know that all those egotistical twerps I had to deal with were hiding their big secret behind an oak leaf. Strangely, it seems that even bad advocacy draw people to knowlege. --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net You don't sew with a fork, so I see no reason to eat with knitting needles. -- Miss Piggy, on eating Chinese Food --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+xMtBC/kSIeFE54RAvsLAJ9IRTPhGIcdxGhOL56zBrikpZIxTgCfVpgs pdG+RD8bVsosdG8lWkbxlyI= =2wLi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:08:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F13416A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:08:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 431F043D1D; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:08:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) i06K5RVj004380; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:05:27 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i06K5OYw004378; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:05:24 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:05:24 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20040106200524.GA4224@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFAF788.9020906@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Who's the troll? (was: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:08:50 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > All I'm suggesting (and no, I'm not the troll, but I'd thank him, > whoever he is), I would not thank the troll -- anyone with legitimate concerns can air them under their own names (like you did), otherwise they don't deserve to be taken seriously. That said, I have a bigger concern. Let me point you to this mail from a year ago on the "troll's identity": http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?29127.1044803212 where Poul-Henning Kamp claims (in rather abusive terms) that the troll was Bill Huey. In reply to doubts raised by me, http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?20030209181722.GA19704 Mark Murray replied that "he admitted to it": http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?200302091826.h19IQBaX035066 Now you can argue that PHK is a private individual who speaks only for himself. But Mark Murray is a core member and presumably takes responsibility for what he writes, so I saw no reason to disbelieve him back then, though it did not fit BillH's pattern at all. Recently however in private mail to me, BillH denied it totally and added that he has denied it in private mail to FreeBSD people too, but it refuses to die down. I don't have a position since I know nobody personally. But such unsupported public accusations against someone's character are a very troubling matter. So will Mark and PHK either supply the proof, or retract the claim? Why accuse BillH anyway? In fact, he had recently annoyed the powers that be. He had exploded in violent language on the lists, after what he saw as a slight to him over the FreeBSD Java project, to which he had contributed immensely -- check the archives. His grievance may have been legitimate, but I don't condone the language he used; but the point is that he did it all in his own name, whereas the troll is clearly embarrassed to reveal his identity. Anyway, to an outsider like me, it seems possible that someone decided to get even with BillH by accusing him in this way. I'm not saying that's the case, but you must admit that it's a fair conclusion to jump to, and make amends for it. Or else, any of us could be next, simply on the grounds that someone in the FreeBSD hierarchy doesn't like us. - Rahul (NOTE: I exchanged some private mail with Bill Huey, and checked with him that it's ok to mail the list, but this mail is from me, not from him.) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:13:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E0316A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (floyd.blarg.net [206.124.128.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F52F43D31 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:13:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C2F38277 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06KCLLP064621 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:12:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i06KCLbD064620 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:12:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:12:20 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040106201220.GB63867@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> <20040105183315.GA99773@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3uo+9/B/ebqu+fSQ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:13:46 -0000 --3uo+9/B/ebqu+fSQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: :Juli Mallett writes: :> [...] just remember that a meeting of peoples :> who disagree, who are different, who ... is pretty much undeniably :> one of the things that does make America great. : :America is great? : :DES It's awesome.=20 --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines. -- R. Buckminster Fuller --3uo+9/B/ebqu+fSQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+xajBC/kSIeFE54RAvGJAKDOQ9ovHJ37hgRFGOFqK5aDUxrtXwCfWccR 9dKSE1BaeNt8HqcWv52DdHk= =+2bk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3uo+9/B/ebqu+fSQ-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:17:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF9416A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:17:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3E743D5A for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:17:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 72F64146F9; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:17:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:17:38 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Linimon X-X-Sender: linimon@pancho To: brett@lariat.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:17:39 -0000 > Alas, the problem is that the FreeBSD developers do not attach > appropriate value to advocacy. Contributions in the form of advocacy > are virtually unvalued relative to contributions in the form of code. IMHO what you're seeing is not this, but instead, frustration from the developers in feeling that the advocacy discussions less often bear concrete results than code contributions. If you don't think the advocacy efforts are good enough, please come up with something concrete, propose it on -advocacy, and see if you can get volunteers to sign on to help. mcl From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:24:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C7716A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (floyd.blarg.net [206.124.128.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE7D43D41 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:24:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5174137F31 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:24:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06KO9LP064673 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:24:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i06KO9h1064672 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:24:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:24:08 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> <20040105183315.GA99773@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PuGuTyElPB9bOcsM" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:24:05 -0000 --PuGuTyElPB9bOcsM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, Brad Knowles wrote: :At 5:56 PM +0100 2004/01/06, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: : :>> [...] just remember that a meeting of peoples :>> who disagree, who are different, who ... is pretty much undeniably :>> one of the things that does make America great. :> :> America is great? : : No. It has been turned into a police state. : : Prepare to be fingerprinted. Few U.S. citizens haven't been.=20 Why should extranationals have more privilige? If you are afraid of being known to the state, stay out. --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net Automobile, n.: A four-wheeled vehicle that runs up hills and down pedestrians. --PuGuTyElPB9bOcsM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+xlnBC/kSIeFE54RAgBDAKDZBQtjyjom6hk4wwhjgvbWCfTiFgCg24n3 xFgxshnNT0+GpsvhcsY50gQ= =Dzk+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PuGuTyElPB9bOcsM-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:25:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE50416A4D0 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476DE43D39 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:25:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i06KP9HV050531; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:25:09 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i06KP9LX050528; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:25:09 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:25:09 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Allan Bowhill In-Reply-To: <20040106201220.GB63867@kosmos.my.net> Message-ID: <20040106222451.C32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:25:15 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Allan Bowhill wrote: > On 0, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > :Juli Mallett writes: > :> [...] just remember that a meeting of peoples > :> who disagree, who are different, who ... is pretty much undeniably > :> one of the things that does make America great. > : > :America is great? > : > :DES > > It's awesome. > Esp. the part covered by Andes. :P > -- > Allan Bowhill > abowhill@blarg.net > > Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less > obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no > solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. > There are no absolute continuums. There are no surfaces. There are no > straight lines. > -- R. Buckminster Fuller > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:32:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB6A16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:32:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D3E943D55; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:31:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id DC23B146FB; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:31:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:31:58 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Linimon X-X-Sender: linimon@pancho To: paul@iconoplex.co.uk Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:32:00 -0000 > The only thing any of the committers cares about is what they think. > Got a problem? Submit a patch. Don't like the way things are done? > Submit a patch. Don't like how such-and-such a util works? Submit a > patch. Please suggest an alternative, given that almost all the labor is volunteer labor. There are hundreds of PRs still to be processed that do have patches -- in fact, on most days the backlog is getting bigger, not smaller. IMHO it's reasonable to prioritize concrete suggestions over wish-list items. What else should we be doing? > Except, when Matt Dillon did submit, he was told to back out > his changes This had more to do with personalities than technology. Other people have had patches rejected, backouts requested, and in some cases, backouts forced upon them. Many of those people are still with the project. In a cooperative anarchy, things are never going to be perfect; further, I think it's unfair to generalize this one situation to saying "this or that contribution doesn't count". This was the culminating incident of a long-standing clash between strong personalities. It's too bad that it worked out the way it did, but I think other than that it's not useful to make generalizations from this one controversy. > In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core > and many with a commit bit will resent you for it, because > you're just a user. What you may be interpreting as resentment may actually just be frustration at being once again in the middle of being told "things are broken" without concrete suggestions about how it can be fixed. Please come up with some kind of definite proposal that you think would alleviate your, and others', concerns; and post it and let us discuss it. Keep in mind that as you do so it's a volunteer project, and you have to address the interests of the current volunteers too. Perhaps you can suggest a way to bring more volunteers in without losing any of the existing ones. I certainly don't have any answers to these kinds of questions; let me take a look at yours. mcl From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:44:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1682616A4D1 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [216.152.64.131]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4EDC43D48 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:44:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however ([206.171.168.138]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:44:14 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:44:13 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2055 Importance: Normal Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:44:17 -0000 > And therein lies a problem. The only thing any of the committers cares > about is what they think. Got a problem? Submit a patch. Don't like the > way things are done? Submit a patch. Don't like how such-and-such a util > works? Submit a patch. Let me also point out that the "submit a patch" response can mean any number of things. It can mean anything from "go away you annoying twit" to "that would be really cool, I just don't have time to code it". Typically, when someone does say "submit a patch" they do clarify and you can tell what they really mean by it. FreeBSD does need more advocacy if it wants to get the kind of visibility and credibility that Linux has in the public perception. Frankly, I'm kind of baffled that it doesn't. I've always found the two OSes more or less interchangeable and tend to install whichever one whose CD I can find first. DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:48:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE6116A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:48:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (zoot.blarg.net [206.124.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B6143D53 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:48:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E38033B67 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06KmlLP064771 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:48:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i06Kmlcd064770 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:48:43 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040106204843.GD63867@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040106201220.GB63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106222451.C32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OROCMA9jn6tkzFBc" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040106222451.C32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:48:40 -0000 --OROCMA9jn6tkzFBc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, Narvi wrote: : :On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Allan Bowhill wrote: : :> On 0, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: :> :Juli Mallett writes: :> :> [...] just remember that a meeting of peoples :> :> who disagree, who are different, who ... is pretty much undeniably :> :> one of the things that does make America great. :> : :> :America is great? :> : :> :DES :> :> It's awesome. :> : :Esp. the part covered by Andes. :P And let's not forget the Carribbean :) --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net "I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." -- Charles Schulz --OROCMA9jn6tkzFBc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+x8qBC/kSIeFE54RAqPmAJ9O7sCPPEUAPxOiTqB2crqGlH4d+gCdFxGD 5qIevBfe7RK7Ks2UdAhg8Lk= =cC3z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OROCMA9jn6tkzFBc-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 13:08:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DFD216A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:08:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ren.sasknow.com (ren.sasknow.com [207.195.92.131]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A30C43D45 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:08:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ren.sasknow.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i06L8mKA080932 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:08:48 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:08:48 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040106145841.Q65048-100000@ren.sasknow.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Domain list per TLD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:08:50 -0000 Hey all, Thought I'd throw this out, here, as I bet someone knows the answer. :-) I'm involved in a research project where one component of the research will involve drawing some conclusions about (at least) the second-level DNS namespace. So, what we'd need is a (way to obtain a) current list of active domain names, probably on a per-TLD basis. Is anyone aware of a way I can obtain such a thing? I haven't tried, but I don't imagine the TLD masters would honour zone transfers... :-) Thanks, - Ryan -- Ryan Thompson SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com 901-1st Avenue North - Saskatoon, SK - S7K 1Y4 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-244-7037 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 13:37:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8598216A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3990143D1F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:37:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06LaVUd090136; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:36:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i06LaVwh090133; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:36:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:36:31 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: David Schwartz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:37:53 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, David Schwartz wrote: > FreeBSD does need more advocacy if it wants to get the kind of > visibility and credibility that Linux has in the public perception. > Frankly, I'm kind of baffled that it doesn't. I've always found the two > OSes more or less interchangeable and tend to install whichever one > whose CD I can find first. The best advocacy FreeBSD can get is to have happy users explain to the rest of the world how much they like our cool aid. Or rather, one of the greatest contributions end-users can make to FreeBSD is to tell their friends (and then help them get up and going :-). It's also one of the greatest compliments you can give. Developers are typically fairly bad at advocacy, and perhaps it's better that the developers work on what they're good at (since it always seems a few more hands can help). So if you (in the general sense, not you specifically) like FreeBSD, and feel like documentation or code aren't your fortes, go out and give a talk at your local Linux user group about FreeBSD. Or explain to the people at your company that they could go out and buy Windows, Solaris, or Linux with support, or they could rely on your own expertise in-house and get the job done at a fraction of the cost. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 13:39:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BE216A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:39:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net (imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.59.72]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA8343D1F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:39:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aacf1qb02@sneakemail.com) Received: from vwinxp.sneakemail.com ([68.19.84.61]) by imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.netESMTP <20040106213921.OCUY1911.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@vwinxp.sneakemail.com> for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:39:21 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20040106162337.01a2db58@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: Private E-Mail User X-Mailer: Secure Internet E-Mail v1.0 Beta Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 16:39:18 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Organization: ThreeSpace Corporation Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:39:25 -0000 At 03:44 PM 1/6/2004, David Schwartz wrote: > FreeBSD does need more advocacy if it wants to get the kind of > visibility >and credibility that Linux has in the public perception. Frankly, I'm kind >of baffled that it doesn't. I've always found the two OSes more or less >interchangeable and tend to install whichever one whose CD I can find first. I used to teach an introductory class on UNIX which used Linux. I would start with the history of UNIX and eventually we'd be using simple shell commands. When FreeBSD (or other free UNIX OSes) were introduced, the question that always came up was "What's the difference between Linux and FreeBSD?" In order to keep things on track, my stock answer became "For the work you're doing, there is none." At this point a student would usually ask "Then why haven't I ever heard of FreeBSD?" My opinion on that has to do with the story behind these two OSes. The popular story behind the origins of FreeBSD is that it was borne out of a clash between academic elitism and corporate greed. The Linux story, on the other hand has a benevolent Finnish student who wanted nothing more than to create a great OS and share it with the world.* It's the same reason that the local kid who starts a neighborhood canned food drive gets more airtime than the soup kitchen sponsored by a major corporation. It just makes for a better story. Chip Morton * - I know that this is a grossly simplified (if not completely inaccurate) view of the FreeBSD/Linux origin stories. But you know as well as I do that it's the way the mainstream press treats it. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 13:45:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4005116A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4642643D1D for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:45:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i06Lj2HV051294; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:45:03 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i06Lj23r051291; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:45:02 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:45:02 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Allan Bowhill In-Reply-To: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> Message-ID: <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:45:09 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Allan Bowhill wrote: > On 0, Brad Knowles wrote: > :At 5:56 PM +0100 2004/01/06, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > : > :>> [...] just remember that a meeting of peoples > :>> who disagree, who are different, who ... is pretty much undeniably > :>> one of the things that does make America great. > :> > :> America is great? > : > : No. It has been turned into a police state. > : > : Prepare to be fingerprinted. > > Few U.S. citizens haven't been. you find it reasonable? Besides, it in no way counters the police state part, and rather enodorses it. > Why should extranationals have more privilige? Mainly because they are extranationals? Also, they are way less likely to commit any crime than those already living inside the US. > > If you are afraid of being known to the state, stay out. > > -- > Allan Bowhill > abowhill@blarg.net > > Automobile, n.: > A four-wheeled vehicle that runs up hills and down > pedestrians. > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 13:48:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D6CF16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B19C43D31; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:48:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i06LmPHV051313; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:48:25 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i06LmOAt051310; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:48:24 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:48:24 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040106234532.L32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:48:28 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Robert Watson wrote: > On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, David Schwartz wrote: > > > FreeBSD does need more advocacy if it wants to get the kind of > > visibility and credibility that Linux has in the public perception. > > Frankly, I'm kind of baffled that it doesn't. I've always found the two > > OSes more or less interchangeable and tend to install whichever one > > whose CD I can find first. > > The best advocacy FreeBSD can get is to have happy users explain to the > rest of the world how much they like our cool aid. Or rather, one of the > greatest contributions end-users can make to FreeBSD is to tell their > friends (and then help them get up and going :-). It's also one of the > greatest compliments you can give. Developers are typically fairly bad at > advocacy, and perhaps it's better that the developers work on what they're > good at (since it always seems a few more hands can help). So if you (in > the general sense, not you specifically) like FreeBSD, and feel like > documentation or code aren't your fortes, go out and give a talk at your > local Linux user group about FreeBSD. Or explain to the people at your > company that they could go out and buy Windows, Solaris, or Linux with > support, or they could rely on your own expertise in-house and get the job > done at a fraction of the cost. > i'm not quite sure this is a replacement for a postgersql / gnome / openoffice style marketing team though. > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects > robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 13:50:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D9016A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63C843D45; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:50:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i06LoKET056918; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:50:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 14:50:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040106.145016.110976071.imp@bsdimp.com> To: paul@iconoplex.co.uk From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:50:23 -0000 In message: <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> Paul Robinson writes: : Except, when Matt Dillon did submit, he was told to back out his changes : and then lost his commit bit. This was because there was an "imminent : commit" due from somebody working on SMP, which still isn't finished : really. You mischaracterize the situation badly. Dillon lost his commit bit because he didn't play well with others. The deeper technical issues aren't as cut and dried as you make them sound. Dillon's contributions, while interesting in their own right, wouldn't have completed SMP. And the specific point of contention has been finished now for at least 6 months. Warner From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 13:53:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C6C16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D5543D46 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:53:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06LqBUd090289; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:52:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i06LqBZo090286; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:52:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:52:11 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Narvi In-Reply-To: <20040106234532.L32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:53:34 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Narvi wrote: > On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Robert Watson wrote: > > > On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > FreeBSD does need more advocacy if it wants to get the kind of > > > visibility and credibility that Linux has in the public perception. > > > Frankly, I'm kind of baffled that it doesn't. I've always found the two > > > OSes more or less interchangeable and tend to install whichever one > > > whose CD I can find first. > > > > The best advocacy FreeBSD can get is to have happy users explain to the > > rest of the world how much they like our cool aid. Or rather, one of the > > greatest contributions end-users can make to FreeBSD is to tell their > > friends (and then help them get up and going :-). It's also one of the > > greatest compliments you can give. Developers are typically fairly bad at > > advocacy, and perhaps it's better that the developers work on what they're > > good at (since it always seems a few more hands can help). So if you (in > > the general sense, not you specifically) like FreeBSD, and feel like > > documentation or code aren't your fortes, go out and give a talk at your > > local Linux user group about FreeBSD. Or explain to the people at your > > company that they could go out and buy Windows, Solaris, or Linux with > > support, or they could rely on your own expertise in-house and get the job > > done at a fraction of the cost. > > i'm not quite sure this is a replacement for a postgersql / gnome / > openoffice style marketing team though. Agreed. It's just a starting point, but one particular benefit of it as a starting point is that it would bring to people's attention the people who's contributions to advocacy are most effective, as well as build a base of marketing materials and volunteers. High on my wish list of marketing materials are some 2-page "white papers" on deploying FreeBSD. Particular, short 2-pagers on FreeBSD as a network appliance or storage appliance base, as a firewall, and as a database server. Nicely laid out, business-like, and appropriate for distribution as PDF or on paper at conferences. Another thing I'd like to see is a retrofit on the "Power to server" brand, which I think was one of our more effective slogans. A nice logo and slogan can go a long way, because people stick them on everything. One of the ideas I've been poking at is moving to a logo that slightly deemphasizes the Daemon, and instead connotes "power and reliability" -- perhaps some sort of train-based logo. Something like: F r e e B S D [train in motion logo] The Power to Serve Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 13:55:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBED16A4D0 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B547F43D49 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:55:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2004010621554601600q42o4e>; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:55:46 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i06LrZgS055558 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:53:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i06LrZj4055557; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:53:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> <20040105183315.GA99773@FreeBSD.org> <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:53:35 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> (Allan Bowhill's message of "Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:24:08 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:55:59 -0000 Allan Bowhill writes: > On 0, Brad Knowles wrote: >: >: Prepare to be fingerprinted. > Few U.S. citizens haven't been. Now they can prepare to be DNA databased, as U.K. citizens have. Orwell was an optimist. I heard a new twist on it last week. Cops want a guy's DNA and don't want to bother a judge to use his search warrant rubber stamp. So they send the guy a letter which causes the guy to send a return letter. (I forget the ruse -- a prize announcement or something. The report didn't say whether it had a Police letterhead or was something more covert.) So he licks the envelope and/or stamp, drops it in the mail, and now his DNA is in the database. (Yes, it matched.) Anybody know when the term "sheeple" was coined? I first heard it last year on a talk show; maybe Limbaugh, but probably Dr. Michael Savage (who I recommend to those who think Limbaugh is extreme or offensive). USA, 06 January 1984+20 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 13:59:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D91F816A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB6243D45; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:59:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 0990B530A; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:59:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 0CFE15308; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:59:02 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id E527B33C9A; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:59:01 +0100 (CET) To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20040106200524.GA4224@online.fr> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:59:01 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040106200524.GA4224@online.fr> (Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:05:24 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who's the troll? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:59:15 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan writes: > [is Bill Huey the troll?] Does anybody seriously believe this? AFAIK, this came up in a heated discussion on IRC, where someone accused him of being the troll and he replied with a sarcastic affirmative. Some people who had previously been witnesses to or victims of his abusive behaviour on the mailing lists were only to happy to take this at face value as it provided them with an excellent excuse to have him banned from the lists. For my part, while I don't particularly like Bill Huey, I have no reason to believe that he is the troll, and a couple of good reasons to believe that he isn't: Bill has never been afraid to post inflammatory material under his own name; there are good reasons to believe the troll's claim that he is a committer, while Bill is not; and the troll appeared long before the Java funding argument through which Bill alienated himself from the community. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 14:04:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E1416A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:04:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from postfix3-1.free.fr (postfix3-1.free.fr [213.228.0.44]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6509943D2D; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:04:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from imp1-a.free.fr (imp1-a.free.fr [213.228.0.79]) by postfix3-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B763C4241; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:04:06 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp1-a.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id ECACB1B9A3; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:03:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by imp1-a.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:03:47 +0100 Message-ID: <1073426627.3ffb30c3d211b@imp1-a.free.fr> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:03:47 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?b?U234cmdyYXY=?= References: <20040106200524.GA4224@online.fr> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.1 cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who's the troll? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:04:14 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > [is Bill Huey the troll?] > > Does anybody seriously believe this? Mark Murray, a FreeBSD core team member, publicly said this on an archived and searchable mailing list. That's my problem with it. Nobody cares what random people may have said to one another on IRC, but when someone who can be regarded as a spokesman for the project puts it on record, it's significant. > For my part, while I don't particularly like Bill Huey, I have no > reason to believe that he is the troll, and a couple of good reasons > to believe that he isn't: And I agree totally with all your reasons for believing he isn't. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 14:09:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 667C716A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D976E43D46 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:09:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i06M9Cxg081607; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:09:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040106145841.Q65048-100000@ren.sasknow.com> References: <20040106145841.Q65048-100000@ren.sasknow.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:08:40 +0100 To: Ryan Thompson From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Domain list per TLD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:09:34 -0000 At 3:08 PM -0600 2004/01/06, Ryan Thompson wrote: > Is anyone aware of a way I can obtain such a thing? I haven't tried, but > I don't imagine the TLD masters would honour zone transfers... :-) The root zone is obtainable from a number of root nameservers. That will give you a list of TLDs. From there, you can try each server for TLD, to see which ones you can get copies of. Last time I tried this, there were 257 unique TLDs (including the root zone), of which I was able to get copies of 164. See for more info. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 14:43:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B269216A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from transport.cksoft.de (transport.cksoft.de [62.111.66.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 185D143D2F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:43:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from transport.cksoft.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by transport.cksoft.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B2E11FF91D for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:43:48 +0100 (CET) Received: by transport.cksoft.de (Postfix, from userid 66) id A02B21FF90C; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:43:46 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.int.zabbadoz.net (Postfix, from userid 1060) id 9CC30154EC; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:43:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.int.zabbadoz.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9E5153CA for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:43:34 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:43:34 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" X-X-Sender: bz@e0-0.zab2.int.zabbadoz.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS cksoft-s20020300-20031204bz on transport.cksoft.de Subject: Re: freebsd irc [was: Where is FreeBSD going?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:43:51 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Robert Watson wrote: > those needs. Many FreeBSD developers do hang out in the public IRC > channels and try to answer questions, hang out on questions@, stable@, where ? I am not an ircii though using it twice a year ;-) I have found references to irc.freebsd.org from a FreeBSD 2.X FAQ but... -- Bjoern A. Zeeb bzeeb at Zabbadoz dot NeT 56 69 73 69 74 http://www.zabbadoz.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 15:28:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8855516A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D47F743D39; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Ae0cf-0009cK-Kd; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:28:29 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:28:25 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:28:39 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > Define "us". You sure as hell aren't speaking for me. Accepted. It came from paul@iconoplex.co.uk and therefore can only represent my own opinion. But I know a lot of people who are looking at deploying 5- who aren't just pissed off - they're *scared*. I don't think many of the developers understand this. To us (yes, I'm not speaking for Brad Knowles), FreeBSD is not a project we spend our spare time on and love and adore. Well, it is, but it's also a lot more. It defines our careers. We roll out something that isn't "quite right", our jobs are finished. Right now, if somebody asks me what our roll-out strategy is for the next 18 months, I have to respond "don't know", whereas the Linux guys are just laughing... don't even start me on what the Windows guys are doing to my career right now.... OK, so it has got personal... I accept it is not the FreeBSD development team's job to look after my career, and to date I've looked after that by myself OK, but all I'm asking is you try and at least understand where some people are coming from on this. If 5.3, when it arrives, is genuinely production ready, trust me, the drinks are on me - I will do my absolute best to get to the next BSDcon and get everybody drunk on an expense account. If it isn't, well, I'll just have to whisper "I told you so" quietly somewhere. > If you have a set of skills that you think could be useful, please > contact Mark or one of the other members of -core to find out how you > might be able to contribute to the project. Mark has mailed me off-list. His tone isn't great. I probably deserve the "Fuck off. Go away." I'l deal with that seperately. :-) > I have the greatest respect for Matt, but he has been a serious > problem for the project for a long time. His technical disagreements > with other members of the project are just one relatively minor aspect > of those problems. His personality has been a much bigger issue. OK, I've never run into that. Over on the DragonFly stuff, he seems pleasant enough and his ideas are innovative, strong, if sometimes... *cough*... eccentric (e.g. replacing sysinstall with an Apache server and a load of PHP...), but I'll accept I haven't seen that, and I know others have had their problems there. I did see the fall-out on these lists with the argument that caused it all to kick off about a year ago though, and I don't think others on the project dealt with him (in public at least) fairly. Again, just my opinion, I wasn't involved, don't know what happened in private. > If you want to feel like this is your project, then you need to > find a way to take ownership of some part. See above. Ooooh, no. That isn't what I want at all. I just want end-users to feel they have a voice. That's all. Maybe they do, and I don't see it. Maybe they don't *and that's for the good for the project* but in my opinion, it just seems odd. > Please let us know how it turns out. Actually, no, I suspect 4.9 will keep me going for at least another 18 months, by which point hopefully 5- stable will be back where everybody wants it. In fairness, tonight, I was sat at a BSD User Group meeting in front of my laptop with a fresh copy of 5- and I (for one reason or another) was digging around and found a copy of the 5- roadmap article in /usr/share/doc which I hadn't read in a long time. I honestly wish I'd read that before posting my last mail to this list. An apology of sorts is due, and you may have it. Sorry. And yes, I was having a bad day, and my tone was rotten to those of you who put so much time into FreeBSD, and all I ask in future is that you realise that some points about bitrot, bloat, bad performance and a lack of *feeling* the end user gets heard is enough to cause real problems for a lot of people. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 16:11:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8EE16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (zoot.blarg.net [206.124.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F59743D45 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:11:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4956233D99 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i070A2LP065337 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i070A2B9065336 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:10:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:10:01 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:11:44 -0000 --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, Narvi wrote: : :On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Allan Bowhill wrote: : :> On 0, Brad Knowles wrote: :> :At 5:56 PM +0100 2004/01/06, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: :> : :> :>> [...] just remember that a meeting of peoples :> :>> who disagree, who are different, who ... is pretty much undeniab= ly :> :>> one of the things that does make America great. :> :> :> :> America is great? :> : :> : No. It has been turned into a police state. :> : :> : Prepare to be fingerprinted. :> :> Few U.S. citizens haven't been. : :you find it reasonable? Besides, it in no way counters the police state :part, and rather enodorses it. How so? There is nothing illegitmate, arbitrary, illegal, secret or repressive about requiring fingerprints and photos of visitors who come across our international borders. It is necessary record-keeping. {Personally I hope genetic fingerprinting ultimately replaces this system. This method of identification has proven indispensable in catching criminals who would otherwise have gone unnoticed. It works. Take Gary Ridegeway for example, who may have killed over 60 women in Washington State. He would never have confessed (and may never have been arrested) if the police could not confront him with a solid death penalty case, supported by genetic evidence. Because the police were able to confront him with this, he plea-bargained out of death in exchange for leading the police to his victim's gravesites.) :> Why should extranationals have more privilige? : :Mainly because they are extranationals?=20 Again, why should we trust? No organization (or nation) with plenty to lose will base it's practices on institutionalized trust. It's always institutionalized mistrust that makes it possible to conduct business. Like with banks. :Also, they are way less likely to :commit any crime than those already living inside the US. It's anybody's guess without statistics. But it's peripheral to the=20 reasons for this type of security. The point is to identify and catch people posing as travelers who are known to be terrorists, or associated with terrorism. If the system helps law enforcement catch other people on the lam, then more power to it. --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net Etymology, n.: Some early etymological scholars came up with derivations that were hard for the public to believe. The term "etymology" was formed from the Latin "etus" ("eaten"), the root "mal" ("bad"), and "logy" ("study of"). It meant "the study of things that are hard to swallow." -- Mike Kellen --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+05YBC/kSIeFE54RArlUAKDIN5TBKlxqU0JtorVvy1ZbuvqnBgCgtg9d JaqFL8xwZxnzSIi2L9I/J8k= =XYg5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 16:13:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E59216A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B4543D55 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:13:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 3000) id 264D41142B; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 01:13:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 01:13:00 +0100 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Colin Percival Message-ID: <20040107001258.GA742@arthur.nitro.dk> References: <6.0.1.1.1.20040106204233.04436d28@imap.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.1.20040106204233.04436d28@imap.sfu.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: Mark Linimon cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:13:34 -0000 --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Moving to -chat, which is a more appropriate list for this IMO] On 2004.01.06 20:52:37 +0000, Colin Percival wrote: > At 20:31 06/01/2004, Mark Linimon wrote: > >There are hundreds of PRs still to be processed that do have > >patches -- in fact, on most days the backlog is getting bigger, > >not smaller. >=20 > Speaking of which... if there's one thing which could be done > to improve committer / non-committer relations, it would be to > *do* something with all those PRs. [Note that my experience is mainly with doc stuff, and I have only been a committer for about 6 months] Indeed, but it's not as easy as it sounds (well, I don't know if it sounds easy...). The biggest problem is that there is only so many hours in a day, and only so much time can be spend on FreeBSD. A lot of PR's does take quite some time to work at before they can be closed/comitted, and quite frankly it can often be a bit boring to fix/work on PR's. The PR's are valuable, but often it's more fun to work on the things I want to do, and since nobody (well, most anyway) aren't getting paid to work on FreeBSD it has be be fun, at least some of the time. I really would like to be able to fix all PR's, since I do remember how frustrating it feels when nobody responds and a PR just remains open, but... If somebody finds a way to make 48 hours in a day, please let me know ;). Another issue is of course that quite a lot of PR's (mainly src related, less often a problem for doc stuff) have way to little information to make it possible to find out what the problem is, but that's another matter. [snip] > But I > think the contributions of non-committers could make FreeBSD > even better, I doubt anyone would argue against that. > and those contributions are being largely lost or > ignored. I don't know if I would say that it's that bad, but yes it could be a lot better. I also have to point people at http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributing/index.html now we are, more or less, on the subject :-). Filing followups to PR's with a really does help (even if no committer starts working on the PR immediately. E.g. submitting a patch, stating that an inactive PR is still a problem in a new release (or if it's not), doing additional research into the problem, and so on will make it more likely that the problem will be fixed. The less work that the committer has to be do to close a PR, the more likey it is that the problem/PR will be fixed... --=20 Simon L. Nielsen FreeBSD Documentation Team --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+08Kh9pcDSc1mlERAl3bAJ92pyz5CGVyBXMgf5FYOal9Lw27BACgwhzc NCZn8dbcQXeR2xBzAvNEZUc= =Y7iU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 16:17:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1E816A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from fep3.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0992C43D2F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:17:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pnmurphy@cogeco.ca) Received: from jupiter.upton.net (d141-18-230.home.cgocable.net [24.141.18.230]) by fep3.cogeco.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2150628C8 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from earth.upton.net (earth.upton.net [192.168.0.3]) by jupiter.upton.net (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with SMTP id i070GxYE045934 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:17:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from paul@earth.upton.net) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:16:54 -0500 From: Paul Murphy To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040106191654.55a20157@earth.upton.net> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.8claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) User-Agent: X-Face: -Q/~XHbe$z/a List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:17:03 -0000 --Signature=_Tue__6_Jan_2004_19_16_54_-0500_gly2Zqr3KLQw.9o8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:17:38 -0600 (CST) Mark Linimon wrote: > > Alas, the problem is that the FreeBSD developers do not attach > > appropriate value to advocacy. Contributions in the form of advocacy > > are virtually unvalued relative to contributions in the form of > > code. > > IMHO what you're seeing is not this, but instead, frustration from > the developers in feeling that the advocacy discussions less often > bear concrete results than code contributions. > > If you don't think the advocacy efforts are good enough, please > come up with something concrete, propose it on -advocacy, and > see if you can get volunteers to sign on to help. > > mcl > "Submit a patch" ;) -- Cogeco ergo sum --Signature=_Tue__6_Jan_2004_19_16_54_-0500_gly2Zqr3KLQw.9o8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+0/7Tv5Mxsi/WPMRAvfXAJ9sGz8Ncw3U1dPxrzxq0MOKQqgmIACgqx7U oKKGpT1ToV6ez1982iTIc6E= =CAF7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Tue__6_Jan_2004_19_16_54_-0500_gly2Zqr3KLQw.9o8-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 16:19:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F146A16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (floyd.blarg.net [206.124.128.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A963743D45 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:19:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 287F937F9D for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:16:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i070H6LP065376 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:17:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i070H5M5065375 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:17:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:17:05 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107001705.GB65133@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200401051502.i05F2qqG007611@dungeon.home> <20040105175904.GA32112@online.fr> <20040105183315.GA99773@FreeBSD.org> <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:19:23 -0000 --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: :Allan Bowhill writes: : :> On 0, Brad Knowles wrote: :>: :>: Prepare to be fingerprinted. : :> Few U.S. citizens haven't been.=20 : :Now they can prepare to be DNA databased, as U.K. citizens have. :Orwell was an optimist. : :I heard a new twist on it last week. Cops want a guy's DNA and don't :want to bother a judge to use his search warrant rubber stamp. So :they send the guy a letter which causes the guy to send a return :letter. (I forget the ruse -- a prize announcement or something. The :report didn't say whether it had a Police letterhead or was something :more covert.) So he licks the envelope and/or stamp, drops it in the :mail, and now his DNA is in the database. (Yes, it matched.) Orwellian, yes. But funny. --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net There is no time like the present for postponing what you ought to be doing. --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+1AABC/kSIeFE54RAmOwAKCRvHJOcKM9OPuyTz8vu7Hra3fuRgCcCuGa xXXn7Y+EYyzNszyAdYReAbU= =wO3B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 16:31:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127F316A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:31:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD06643D39 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:31:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i070TkUd092208; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:29:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i070TkEa092205; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:29:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:29:46 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd irc [was: Where is FreeBSD going?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:31:10 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Robert Watson wrote: > > > those needs. Many FreeBSD developers do hang out in the public IRC > > channels and try to answer questions, hang out on questions@, stable@, > > where ? I am not an ircii though using it twice a year ;-) > > I have found references to irc.freebsd.org from a FreeBSD 2.X FAQ but... Try irc.freenode.net#freebsd and related channels. EFnet is arguably a cesspool, however. :-) Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 16:46:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860C016A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA4443D1D for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:46:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Ae1ps-0009qL-Uo; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:46:13 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFB56CE.3030109@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:46:06 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Bowhill References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> In-Reply-To: <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:46:17 -0000 Allan Bowhill wrote: >How so? There is nothing illegitmate, arbitrary, illegal, secret or >repressive about requiring fingerprints and photos of visitors who come >across our international borders. It is necessary record-keeping. > When they came and took the liberty of tourists, I didn't defend them because I was not a tourist.... (etc.) >{Personally I hope genetic fingerprinting ultimately replaces this >system. This method of identification has proven indispensable in >catching criminals who would otherwise have gone unnoticed. It works. > It worked in a single case you can cite here. Plus, the case you cite does not concern a tourist to my knowledge, who therefore would not have been fingerprinted at customs. Therefore, it's not only a sole case, it's irrelevant. You're also missing the point that defeating electronic fingerprint scanners is relatively trivial. >Again, why should we trust? > Well, quite right. Thankfully for me you don't. Nobody travelling into the US with an EU passport, or probably even just on a flight from the EU, is going to get fingerprinted. Fortunately for the terrorists, most of their cells planning attacks against the US are reportedly inside the EU. As making EU citizens do the fingerprint thing would grind all international airports to a halt and probably impact heavily on US export business (due to EU businessmen getting uppity), can I just ask - what's the point of having this system? >No organization (or nation) with plenty to lose will base it's practices >on institutionalized trust. It's always institutionalized mistrust that >makes it possible to conduct business. Like with banks. > Institutionalized (sic) mistrust. I like that phrase. It sums up North America so well. Claim liberty and freedom, but whatever you do, make sure the Government suspects EVERYBODY! And before you think I'm US-bashing, my Father is a US Citizen. He would agree you're talking rubbish. You're also forgetting when you criticise our criticism that many people commenting on all this here, from the EU, have lived with terrorism on their own soil for many, many years - you guys are new to this, whereas the IRA have almost killed me (and several hundred others) on two occasions with bombs in central Manchester when I was a teenager. I'm sure there are people here from Ireland, France, Spain, Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, etc. who can recount similar tales. Generally, we know what does work, what doesn't work, what is just hype and what is a genuine anti-terrorist measure. This fingerprint system will never catch a terrorist, but will create even more bad feeling to the US and its citizens, unfortunately. Pity, because generally I quite like the US and it's people. Terrible choice in politicians however. *AWFUL* choice in Presidents. >It's anybody's guess without statistics. > Which would be useless anyway. >The point is to identify and catch people posing as travelers who >are known to be terrorists, or associated with terrorism. If the >system helps law enforcement catch other people on the lam, then >more power to it. > Right, so you think the FBI and CIA already have every terrorist's fingerprint on file already do you? And that it is not trivial to defeat these fingerprinting systems if they wish to? Or is it just so that after the event they can say "well, we almost caught them, and look, the system only cost us a few billion dollars..." -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 17:09:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3533D16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807DF43D2D; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:09:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i0719Yxe090335; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:09:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:09:33 +0100 To: Paul Robinson From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Brad Knowles cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 01:09:42 -0000 At 11:28 PM +0000 2004/01/06, Paul Robinson wrote: > Accepted. It came from paul@iconoplex.co.uk and therefore can > only represent my own opinion. In the future, may I suggest that you make this sort of statement more clear at the beginning? It sounded to me like you were standing up as a self-appointed champion of the rest of the world. > But I know a lot of people who are looking at deploying 5- who > aren't just pissed off - they're *scared*. FreeBSD-5 was always going to be problematical. There have probably been more things changed for this major version than for any previous major version in history, maybe even for all previous major versions combined. They bit off a great big honking whackload with this version, and they knew it. That's why we're so far behind the original release timetable (one year? two years?). Any reasonable production-oriented plan would have been to stick with 4.x until such time as 5.x has been declared "STABLE", and then wait for another minor release or two after that. Timetables can (and do) slip, so you'd have to build that into the picture. > I don't think many of the > developers understand this. My personal opinion is that I believe many of them understand this better than you know. See above. > To us (yes, I'm not speaking for Brad Knowles), FreeBSD is not a > project we spend our spare time on and love and adore. Well, it is, > but it's also a lot more. It defines our careers. We roll out > something that isn't "quite right", our jobs are finished. I've been there. I was the only FreeBSD guy bringing in machines into the largest ISP in Belgium, where everyone else was a Linux fanatic. They learned to respect the machines I brought in and how rock-solid they were, and my co-workers have since taken over and rolled out even more FreeBSD servers since I left. I believe they have the largest USENET news servers in the country, and the machines are also some of the most robust in the facility. > Right now, if somebody asks me what our roll-out strategy is for > the next 18 months, I have to respond "don't know", whereas the > Linux guys are just laughing... don't even start me on what the > Windows guys are doing to my career right now.... See above. Roll out 4.x for now, wait for 5.x to stabilize. That should have been the plan since 5.x first became -CURRENT years ago. The Linux guys have a lot to deal with, too. Red Hat licensing is now looking nearly as expensive as Sun, Mandrake is bankrupt, SuSE is being bought by Novell (in preparation to kill it?), and who else is left? They've always had a schizophrenic situation, with the dichotomy between the kernel developers versus the distribution creators. Windows? Well, Longhorn just got pushed out yet another year -- wait until 2005 or 2006, at least. Nothing to worry about there. > OK, so it has got personal... I accept it is not the FreeBSD > development team's job to look after my career, and to date I've > looked after that by myself OK, but all I'm asking is you try and > at least understand where some people are coming from on this. I understand, and I believe that the vast majority of the FreeBSD developers understand. > Mark has mailed me off-list. His tone isn't great. I probably > deserve the "Fuck off. Go away." I'l deal with that seperately. :-) In my original draft of my response, I basically told you to STFU myself. I decided that discretion was the better part of valor, and toned down that remark. But I can certainly understand the frustration resulting from having seen your post. > OK, I've never run into that. Over on the DragonFly stuff, he seems > pleasant enough and his ideas are innovative, strong, if sometimes... > *cough*... eccentric (e.g. replacing sysinstall with an Apache server > and a load of PHP...), but I'll accept I haven't seen that, and I > know others have had their problems there. Well, since it's his project, I'm sure he feels a lot more secure. Perhaps he's taken some lessons from previous mistakes with the FreeBSD project, and he's working to avoid re-living them with DragonFly. > I did see the fall-out > on these lists with the argument that caused it all to kick off > about a year ago though, and I don't think others on the project > dealt with him (in public at least) fairly. Again, just my opinion, > I wasn't involved, don't know what happened in private. I don't think that we saw more than the slightest bit of what really happened. I will agree that I think this matter could have (and should have) been better handled with regards to the public aspects, but anyone who was watching the lists at the time should have noted that this was not a new type of problem, and there were multiple references to previous situations of a similar nature. > Ooooh, no. That isn't what I want at all. I just want end-users to > feel they have a voice. That's all. Maybe they do, and I don't see > it. Maybe they don't *and that's for the good for the project* but > in my opinion, it just seems odd. People of all sorts will get that voice, if they find a way to take some sort of ownership in the project. That could be development, QA, documentation, or something else. But if you don't want to join the party, then you can't reasonably complain when you are unable to vote when the primary rolls around. Moreover, you can't reasonably complain about the person who gets elected, if you didn't vote. > Actually, no, I suspect 4.9 will keep me going for at least another > 18 months, by which point hopefully 5- stable will be back where > everybody wants it. Which should have been your plan from Day One. > And yes, I was having a bad day, and my tone was rotten to those > of you who put so much time into FreeBSD, and all I ask in future > is that you realise that some points about bitrot, bloat, bad > performance and a lack of *feeling* the end user gets heard is > enough to cause real problems for a lot of people. FreeBSD is a very unique OS. Unlike virtually any other OS (except other *BSD variants), the user has the option of being more involved in the project and helping to determine its future. You don't get anything remotely like this with Windows -- you just get whatever dreckage and bletchery that Redmond chooses to foist upon you. You don't get anything like this with Linux -- you could get involved with a particular distribution, but that doesn't give you any potential for involvement with the kernel. You could get involved with the kernel, but that has little direct impact on the user environment. You don't really get anything like this anywhere else. It's entirely your option, but if you choose to not get involved in the project, then you really don't have any grounds to complain that it's not going the way you want. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 17:14:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1894216A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:14:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54DB443D46 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:14:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i071Elxe090775; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:14:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:12:48 +0100 To: Allan Bowhill From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 01:14:56 -0000 At 4:10 PM -0800 2004/01/06, Allan Bowhill wrote: > How so? There is nothing illegitmate, arbitrary, illegal, secret or > repressive about requiring fingerprints and photos of visitors who come > across our international borders. It is necessary record-keeping. Why not just torture them until they confess their obvious crimes? > {Personally I hope genetic fingerprinting ultimately replaces this > system. This method of identification has proven indispensable in > catching criminals who would otherwise have gone unnoticed. It works. Have you ever heard of "contamination" or "computer error"? What about outright abuse of the system? We computer types should understand the concept of "garbage-in, garbage-out", as well as the concept of "no computer is infallible". > Again, why should we trust? I see. Obviously all extranationals are criminals, so why don't we just nuke them all out of existence and solve the problem? > No organization (or nation) with plenty to lose will base it's practices > on institutionalized trust. It's always institutionalized mistrust that > makes it possible to conduct business. Like with banks. This says volumes for how little you actually understand security. The biggest crimes are always committed by insiders. You or I would be unlikely to steal thousands of dollars from a bank, and totally unable to steal billions of dollars from a bank, but for insiders it could be very easy. Indeed, for them the larger the numbers, the easier they are to hide. Or haven't you heard of Long Term Capital Management? > The point is to identify and catch people posing as travelers who > are known to be terrorists, or associated with terrorism. If the > system helps law enforcement catch other people on the lam, then > more power to it. They don't freakin' speak the bloody language of the people they are claiming to be terrorists. They can't even properly spell the names of the supposed terrorists. If they think that every "Mohammed" is a criminal, let's see them put every "Mr. Smith" in jail, or every Chang in China. Let them start spelling the names properly. Let them start understanding the language. Let them figure out that Mohammed ibn Saud (or whatever) is about as common a name as "Fred Smith", and the name alone is far from enough information to tell you whether a particular person may or may not be a supposed terrorist. Or do you really want to turn this into a GATTACA, or maybe 1984? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 17:48:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A0F16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244B043D55; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 38F22C1F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:48:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37BD7C1D; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:48:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:48:46 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040106173753.W78161-100000@moo.sysabend.org> X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd irc [was: Where is FreeBSD going?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 01:48:48 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Robert Watson wrote: > On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Robert Watson wrote: > > > those needs. Many FreeBSD developers do hang out in the public IRC > > > channels and try to answer questions, hang out on questions@, > > > stable@, > > where ? I am not an ircii though using it twice a year ;-) > > > > I have found references to irc.freebsd.org from a FreeBSD 2.X FAQ > > but... > Try irc.freenode.net#freebsd and related channels. EFnet is arguably a > cesspool, however. :-) Irc.freebsd.org never pointed to an EFNet server, just FYI. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 18:18:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A66116A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ninjabucket.com (ninjabucket.com [208.60.152.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F0BA43D48 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:18:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aaron@snaphat.com) Received: from snaphat.com (pcp04337577pcs.elkton01.md.comcast.net [68.33.78.247]) by mail.ninjabucket.com (8.12.8/8.11.6) with SMTP id i072IsJB027581; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:18:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from aaron@snaphat.com) Received: from 68.33.78.247 (SquirrelMail authenticated user aaron) by snaphat.com with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:18:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32820.68.33.78.247.1073441935.squirrel@snaphat.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:18:55 -0500 (EST) From: "Aaron Myles Landwehr" To: "Brad Knowles" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: aaron@snaphat.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 02:18:59 -0000 >But if you don't want to join the party, then you can't > reasonably complain when you are unable to vote when the primary > rolls around. Moreover, you can't reasonably complain about the > person who gets elected, if you didn't vote. vote? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 18:47:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0448D16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pear.silverwraith.com (66-214-182-79.la-cbi.charterpipeline.net [66.214.182.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0920D43D49; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:47:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avleen@pear.silverwraith.com) Received: from avleen by pear.silverwraith.com with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1Ae3jL-000D4O-U0; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:47:35 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:47:35 -0800 From: Avleen Vig To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20040107024735.GW2838@silverwraith.com> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105134236.03b51cc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105134236.03b51cc0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Sender: Avleen Vig cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 02:47:38 -0000 On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 01:52:50PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux in the area > of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption). Again, this is a governance > issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy toward advocacy, > since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too many > people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd their "sandbox." So, > some of the criticism is actually valid. Advocacy is NOT a race or a popularity contest. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 18:57:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D63B816A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (floyd.blarg.net [206.124.128.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30EED43D4C for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:56:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEDB9380C2 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:55:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i072u7LP065772 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:56:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i072u7Ad065771 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:56:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:56:01 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107025601.GC65133@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFB56CE.3030109@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5QAgd0e35j3NYeGe" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFB56CE.3030109@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 02:57:48 -0000 --5QAgd0e35j3NYeGe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, Paul Robinson wrote: :Allan Bowhill wrote: : :>How so? There is nothing illegitmate, arbitrary, illegal, secret or :>repressive about requiring fingerprints and photos of visitors who come :>across our international borders. It is necessary record-keeping. :> :When they came and took the liberty of tourists, I didn't defend them=20 :because I was not a tourist.... (etc.) Your right to convenient passage as a visitor do not override our right to take measures to protect our own safety and security. :>{Personally I hope genetic fingerprinting ultimately replaces this :>system. This method of identification has proven indispensable in :>catching criminals who would otherwise have gone unnoticed. It works. : :It worked in a single case you can cite here. Plus, the case you cite=20 :does not concern a tourist to my knowledge, who therefore would not have= =20 :been fingerprinted at customs. Therefore, it's not only a sole case,=20 :it's irrelevant. You're also missing the point that defeating electronic= =20 :fingerprint scanners is relatively trivial. It has worked not only in a single case, but in many cases, tourists, terrorists, serial killers, and freeing innocent people who were wrongfully convicted. The area of genetic testing has signifcant merit, although you appear not to accept this. :>Again, why should we trust? :> : :Well, quite right. Thankfully for me you don't. Nobody travelling into=20 :the US with an EU passport, or probably even just on a flight from the=20 :EU, is going to get fingerprinted. Fortunately for the terrorists, most=20 :of their cells planning attacks against the US are reportedly inside the= =20 :EU.=20 I heard that Brits are exempt from fingerprinting. I hope this changes. Simply out of fairness to everyone else. :As making EU citizens do the fingerprint thing would grind all=20 :international airports to a halt and probably impact heavily on US=20 :export business (due to EU businessmen getting uppity), can I just ask -= =20 :what's the point of having this system? The U.S. economy, when healthy, relies on %75 internal spending.=20 If EU businessmen have a problem with this, they can go fish. I doubt the EU will impose trade sanctions, or sacrifice good business for the sake of a few irate travelers. :>No organization (or nation) with plenty to lose will base it's practices :>on institutionalized trust. It's always institutionalized mistrust that :>makes it possible to conduct business. Like with banks. :> : :Institutionalized (sic) mistrust. I like that phrase. It sums up North=20 :America so well. Claim liberty and freedom, but whatever you do, make=20 :sure the Government suspects EVERYBODY! And before you think I'm=20 :US-bashing, my Father is a US Citizen. He would agree you're talking=20 :rubbish. So what. My Father is a British Citizen, and he thought we should have dropped every nuke we had on Afghanistan. He would agree you're talking trash. That doesn't make his hypothetical views relevant to the discussion. :You're also forgetting when you criticise our criticism that many people= =20 :commenting on all this here, from the EU, have lived with terrorism on=20 :their own soil for many, many years - you guys are new to this,=20 We are not new to this, as you seem to believe. Terrorism, Piracy and Organized Crime are all intertwined. We have dealt with all of them in our history. Addressing problems related to international piracy and felonies is part of the responsibility of government, and is coded into our constitution. :whereas=20 :the IRA have almost killed me (and several hundred others) on two=20 :occasions with bombs in central Manchester when I was a teenager. I'm=20 :sure there are people here from Ireland, France, Spain, Greece, Turkey,=20 :Cyprus, etc. who can recount similar tales. Generally, we know what does= =20 :work, what doesn't work, what is just hype and what is a genuine=20 :anti-terrorist measure. I'm sorry to hear you were almost killed. I don't know much about the particulars of your domestic terrorism problems, but I am under the impression that Britain's handling of it is somewhat less than exemplary. I don't think stake-knife solutions and army collusion with terrorists will work here. :This fingerprint system will never catch a terrorist, but will create=20 :even more bad feeling to the US and its citizens, unfortunately. Pity,=20 :because generally I quite like the US and it's people. Terrible choice=20 :in politicians however. *AWFUL* choice in Presidents. Obviously nothin' but love ... :>It's anybody's guess without statistics.=20 :> :Which would be useless anyway. : :>The point is to identify and catch people posing as travelers who :>are known to be terrorists, or associated with terrorism. If the :>system helps law enforcement catch other people on the lam, then :>more power to it. :> : :Right, so you think the FBI and CIA already have every terrorist's=20 :fingerprint on file already do you?=20 They have some, and will get more with the help of this system. If the terrorists decide not to show up for their flights, fine. All the better. They can stay home and blow themselves up. :And that it is not trivial to defeat=20 :these fingerprinting systems if they wish to?=20 Not trivial, but possible. All the more reason to go with genetic sampling. :Or is it just so that=20 :after the event they can say "well, we almost caught them, and look, the= =20 :system only cost us a few billion dollars..." As far as national defense is concerned, it comes at a price. If it's money rather than lives, let it be money. --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net Dealing with failure is easy: work hard to improve. Success is also easy to handle: you've solved the wrong problem. Work hard to improve. --5QAgd0e35j3NYeGe Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+3VBBC/kSIeFE54RApCkAJ45Nl0mo2BdsBADER+FQ5zFOXV9cwCfYr24 meoeFXwhVHNgOlmFmis49Pg= =5pub -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5QAgd0e35j3NYeGe-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 20:13:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8909416A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfenm.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CBC3043D58 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:13:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 1699 invoked by uid 1002); 7 Jan 2004 04:13:07 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:13:07 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20040107041307.GA1674@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.23 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 04:13:09 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: [... linux vs freebsd stuff from Brad and Paul ... ] I've only had FreeBSD experience on the desktop lately, but I think FreeBSD 5.0 was already more "stable" than Linux 2.4.x for x<10 at least. Even with the present lot of 2.4 linux kernels, one runs into all sorts of little non-reproducible problems (unkillable processes due to I/O problems, problems under heavy load, etc) that I've never seen in FreeBSD. Linus has now released 2.6.0 when it's clearly not ready, because bugs won't get fixed unless people use it widely, he says. So maybe FreeBSD is more conservative in numbering than Linux (2.6.0 corresponds to 5.0-DP1 at best) but that's not a bad thing. [ ... Matt Dillon ... ] > > OK, I've never run into that. Over on the DragonFly stuff, he seems > > pleasant enough and his ideas are innovative, strong, if sometimes... > > *cough*... eccentric (e.g. replacing sysinstall with an Apache server > > and a load of PHP...), but I'll accept I haven't seen that, and I > > know others have had their problems there. > > Well, since it's his project, I'm sure he feels a lot more > secure. No, I have exactly the same impression from his FreeBSD mailing list postings too, and many others said the same thing when he was chucked out. He was always willing to help inexperienced people and his mails were a pleasure to read for their technical detail. The impression given out then (eg, by Greg Lehey in DaemonNews) was that he had two faces to his personality: the friendly help-newbies one, and an aggressive behind-the-scenes one that only showed up when dealing with other developers. So Matt was easy with newbies and aggressive with other developers. Somehow (being from an academic background) I can sympathise with that. On the other hand, many of FreeBSD's key developers are rather curt and abrasive with newbies, while being (apparently) gentle with other developers. Is that a good thing? From the project management point of view (get 5-STABLE out the door quick) I don't know, but from the advocacy point of view (convert new users), I certainly fear the answer is no. I have to agree with many people that the internal issues and half-truths pointed out by the troll haven't been great PR for FreeBSD lately. I've not advocated FreeBSD lately, not because of worries about the quality of 5.x but because of unease about its future and the attitude of its leaders, and the turning point in my feelings towards FreeBSD was probably the chucking-out of Matt Dillon. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 20:20:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87EF16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (zoot.blarg.net [206.124.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D479A43D2D for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:20:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C305533D30 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i074K7LP066034 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i074K68i066033 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:20:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:20:06 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107042006.GA65900@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 04:20:59 -0000 --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, Brad Knowles wrote: :At 4:10 PM -0800 2004/01/06, Allan Bowhill wrote: :> How so? There is nothing illegitmate, arbitrary, illegal, secret or :> repressive about requiring fingerprints and photos of visitors who come :> across our international borders. It is necessary record-keeping. : : Why not just torture them until they confess their obvious crimes? Good idea. That Old-Europe antiterrorism knowhow is just as fresh today as it was during the Spanish Inquisition. :> {Personally I hope genetic fingerprinting ultimately replaces this :> system. This method of identification has proven indispensable in :> catching criminals who would otherwise have gone unnoticed. It works. : : Have you ever heard of "contamination" or "computer error"? What=20 :about outright abuse of the system? : : We computer types should understand the concept of "garbage-in,=20 :garbage-out", as well as the concept of "no computer is infallible". : Exactly. Keeping the garbage out is a legitimate goal of the system. :> Again, why should we trust? : : I see. Obviously all extranationals are criminals, so why don't=20 :we just nuke them all out of existence and solve the problem? But if we did that ... where would we get our slaves from? :> No organization (or nation) with plenty to lose will base it's practices :> on institutionalized trust. It's always institutionalized mistrust that :> makes it possible to conduct business. Like with banks. : : The biggest crimes are always committed by insiders. You or I=20 :would be unlikely to steal thousands of dollars from a bank, and=20 :totally unable to steal billions of dollars from a bank, but for=20 :insiders it could be very easy. Indeed, for them the larger the=20 :numbers, the easier they are to hide. Batting 1000. The biggest act of terrorism in the U.S. was not performed by insiders.=20 However, you have a good point. Preventing domestic terrorism is another aspect of homeland security. : They don't freakin' speak the bloody language of the people they=20 :are claiming to be terrorists. They can't even properly spell the=20 :names of the supposed terrorists. If they think that every=20 :"Mohammed" is a criminal, let's see them put every "Mr. Smith" in=20 :jail, or every Chang in China. : : Let them start spelling the names properly. Let them start=20 :understanding the language. Let them figure out that Mohammed ibn=20 :Saud (or whatever) is about as common a name as "Fred Smith", and the=20 :name alone is far from enough information to tell you whether a=20 :particular person may or may not be a supposed terrorist. : : Or do you really want to turn this into a GATTACA, or maybe 1984? Yeah, false positives can be embarrassing. But what the hell. Maybe Homeland Security can be persuaded to use SpamAssassin. --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net Concept, n.: Any "idea" for which an outside consultant billed you more than $25,000. --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+4j1BC/kSIeFE54RAmXQAJ9aQZbFuXGJWFbqAjjFfKeFXYpdHQCbBhl4 KAOyApAgYngP9pzz+LwsavQ= =dd5r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 22:11:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0323116A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:11:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B2843D2D for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:11:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id BDCBD146F9; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:11:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:11:49 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Linimon X-X-Sender: linimon@pancho To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Paul Murphy Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 06:11:51 -0000 > > If you don't think the advocacy efforts are good enough, please > > come up with something concrete, propose it on -advocacy, and > > see if you can get volunteers to sign on to help. > "Submit a patch" ;) I really think this is unfair. If you think the project is heading in the wrong direction, IMHO it's up to you to propose a better one. Since I don't know you (I don't think we have ever corresponded), I honestly have no idea what you think should be changed. mcl From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 22:23:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462FE16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA09C43D31 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:23:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 46320146F9; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:23:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:23:04 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Linimon X-X-Sender: linimon@pancho To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: rsidd@online.fr Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 06:23:05 -0000 > the turning point in my feelings towards FreeBSD was probably > the chucking-out of Matt Dillon. OK, fair enough, but now, with all the water that's under the bridge, what do you suggest the FreeBSD project do about it? Matt's got his own project and his own unique interests now. What would you like to see happen? I am not asking this to be argumentative; I think it's a fair question. mcl From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 23:13:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9FA816A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfenm.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4EEE843D46 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:13:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 3900 invoked by uid 1002); 7 Jan 2004 07:13:21 -0000 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:13:21 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mark Linimon Message-ID: <20040107071321.GA3781@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Linimon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.23 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 07:13:22 -0000 Mark Linimon said on Jan 7, 2004 at 00:23:04: > > the turning point in my feelings towards FreeBSD was probably > > the chucking-out of Matt Dillon. > > OK, fair enough, but now, with all the water that's under the > bridge, what do you suggest the FreeBSD project do about it? > > Matt's got his own project and his own unique interests now. Which is a good thing. He's probably better off as a "benevolent dictator" (like Linus) than as part of a fractious project. > What would you like to see happen? I am not asking this to > be argumentative; I think it's a fair question. Well, Matt was just one of several things that happened back then. The rest is ancient history too; the main other thing that bothers me today is one I've already brought up on this list, a public, unsupported (and almost certainly untrue) allegation by a core member that a contributor who'd recently fought with the FreeBSD foundation was the "troll" and had "admitted to it". I just cannot see that as "water under the bridge"; if it had happened to me I wouldn't be willing to forgive and forget it. Clearly some important people in FreeBSD are willing to hit below the belt when there are personal disagreements; and as long as these people remain in FreeBSD, I know there will be problems in the future too. But I don't foresee them being chucked out as Matt was. So what would I like to see happen? I don't know. Perhaps forget it all and take DragonFly for a spin (I already did actually, before switching to FreeBSD 5; neither of them works flawlessly on my laptop but I can live with either.) And hope it avoids FreeBSD's human-relations pains as it grows. (I'm optimistic: a benevolent dictator like Matt, or Linus or Guido van Rossum or Larry Wall, can resolve conflicts more effectively than a core team without a strong central figure.) And hope that other people disenchanted with FreeBSD will find something constructive to do, like Matt and others, and unlike our friend the troll. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 00:21:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 717EA16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:21:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout11.sul.t-online.com (mailout11.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2D5143D1D for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:21:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jpp-export@t-online.de) Received: from fwd07.aul.t-online.de by mailout11.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1Ae8sd-0003hD-02; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 09:17:31 +0100 Received: from jpp-dfcos6ji3i6 (JT+ESkZUgeYQlrvsEdxlxCltYumWNXWuoUrQQYokWUmCfQRcN7s4rQ@[217.1.114.164]) by fmrl07.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1Ae8sQ-0Yufpr0; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:17:18 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "jpp" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--_mabry_41ce5c82170e41fb76b3176e" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:17:18 +0100 Message-ID: <1Ae8sQ-0Yufpr0@fmrl07.sul.t-online.com> X-Seen: false X-ID: JT+ESkZUgeYQlrvsEdxlxCltYumWNXWuoUrQQYokWUmCfQRcN7s4rQ@t-dialin.net Subject: oferta notebooki, dodatki. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 08:21:40 -0000 Mime-compliant email programs should not be displaying this line. ----_mabry_41ce5c82170e41fb76b3176e Content-Type: text/plain J.P.P. Computertechnik Import & Export Tel. 0049 202-309 80 21 Fax: 0049 202-309 80 21 Mobil: 0049 172 63 111 22 Email: jpp-export@t-online.de Informacja po polsku. Oferta 01.kw.2004 w zalaczniku. Produkty Ceny w Euro/Netto 1 Szt.10 Szt.Reserw. 1. Cel./2,40GHz/14"/256DDR/20GB/DVD-CD-RW 24x/10x/8x/24x/SIS650grafika do 64MB/2xUSB 2.0/1xPCMCIA/modem/LAN10/100/TV Out/FireWire Nowe. 745,00 3. Armada E500 P III 600, 6,5-10GB, 128MB, CD, FDD. 349-389,00 3. Pamieci/Notebook DDR/SO-DIMM 200 Pin 2,5V. Nowe.256MB/40,00;512MB/110,00 4. Pamieci/Notebook Sync-Dimm 256MB Nowe. 55,00 5. 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mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA8A43D31 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:37:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk) Received: from caomhin.demon.co.uk ([62.49.21.186]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Ae9C2-000CqU-0V for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 08:37:34 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 08:37:01 +0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Kevin Golding References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <20040107042006.GA65900@kosmos.my.net> In-Reply-To: <20040107042006.GA65900@kosmos.my.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 08:37:37 -0000 In article <20040107042006.GA65900@kosmos.my.net>, Allan Bowhill writes >On 0, Brad Knowles wrote: >:At 4:10 PM -0800 2004/01/06, Allan Bowhill wrote: > >:> No organization (or nation) with plenty to lose will base it's practices >:> on institutionalized trust. It's always institutionalized mistrust that >:> makes it possible to conduct business. Like with banks. >: >: The biggest crimes are always committed by insiders. You or I >:would be unlikely to steal thousands of dollars from a bank, and >:totally unable to steal billions of dollars from a bank, but for >:insiders it could be very easy. Indeed, for them the larger the >:numbers, the easier they are to hide. > >Batting 1000. The biggest act of terrorism in the U.S. was not performed >by insiders. Timothy McVeigh was convicting of killing 168 Americans, including young children, with his Oklahoma attack. He was American through and through. The WTC attacks were 17 people killing 3000. According to my maths that's only 176 victims each, many of whom weren't American. The biggest act of terrorism may not have been by Americans, but the terrorist who killed the most Americans was. >However, you have a good point. Preventing domestic terrorism is another >aspect of homeland security. The word *home*land would suggest it's quite major in my eyes :-) America has had a history of not caring about terrorism overseas; even supporting terror groups both morally and financially. That's a large reason why people outside the USA find the recent attitude to terrorism a little hard to comprehend. Kevin From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 02:24:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2463B16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:24:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E70243D54 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:24:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 1AeAr8-000Bwa-QR; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:24:06 +0000 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:24:06 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Mark Linimon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107102406.GD27903@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20040107071321.GA3781@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040107071321.GA3781@online.fr> Sender: Paul Robinson Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:24:09 -0000 On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 02:13:21AM -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > And hope it avoids FreeBSD's > human-relations pains as it grows. (I'm optimistic: a benevolent > dictator like Matt, or Linus or Guido van Rossum or Larry Wall, can > resolve conflicts more effectively than a core team without a strong > central figure.) And what if he's more like Theo? Don't get me wrong, it's quite clear Mr. de Raadt is an enthusiastic, committed and talented developer. But how many people here would really want to deal with him on a day-to-day basis? I like the ideas over on DF, and I'll be trying it myself too. However, DF is to FBSD what OBSD is NBSD. It is possible that personalities may follow. > And hope that other people disenchanted with FreeBSD > will find something constructive to do, like Matt and others, and > unlike our friend the troll. Well, I have plenty of ideas, just insufficient time. I'm not quite sure what one is meant to do in such a position. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 02:55:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCED316A4DD for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:55:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EC7AF43D2D for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:55:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Received: (qmail 56093 messnum 920705 invoked from network[194.125.148.35/ts03-035.dublin.indigo.ie]); 7 Jan 2004 10:55:25 -0000 Received: from ts03-035.dublin.indigo.ie (HELO ?194.125.148.35?) (194.125.148.35) by mail07.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 56093) with SMTP; 7 Jan 2004 10:55:25 -0000 In-Reply-To: <20040107102406.GD27903@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20040107071321.GA3781@online.fr> <20040107102406.GD27903@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3F3895EC-40FD-11D8-AC3A-000A95E5F504@cooperationireland.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Doyle Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:35:43 +0000 To: Paul Robinson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) cc: Mark Linimon cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:55:29 -0000 On 7 Jan 2004, at 10:24, Paul Robinson wrote: > > I like the ideas over on DF, and I'll be trying it myself too. > However, DF > is to FBSD what OBSD is NBSD. It is possible that personalities may > follow. > Is this such a bad thing? As far as I can see OpenBSD has developed a "best of breed" reputation for security on a restricted set of hardware compared to NetBSD. They now occupy distinctly different niches, and there's room for both. If DragonFly BSD and FreeBSD both evolve in different directions away from the point at which the fork occurred, then there should be a place for both in the long term future landscape. (Note: I'm a system administrator who depends on FreeBSD to run the vast majority (9 out of 11) servers in my small company. The only development that I do is Database/Website stuff, so I'm not competent to comment with anything other than a "user" perspective on Kernel programming issues.) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 02:56:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5887516A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:56:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CFB443D3F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:56:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 2A3B1530A; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:56:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 84F405308; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:56:46 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 7154333C9A; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:56:46 +0100 (CET) To: Jamie Bowden References: <20040106173753.W78161-100000@moo.sysabend.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:56:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040106173753.W78161-100000@moo.sysabend.org> (Jamie Bowden's message of "Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:48:46 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" cc: Robert Watson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd irc X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:56:55 -0000 Jamie Bowden writes: > Irc.freebsd.org never pointed to an EFNet server, just FYI. Yes, it did, for a very short time - about two years ago, if memory serves. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 03:23:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5261416A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.cyclades.de (mail.linux-router.org [62.225.173.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9FE43D1D; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:23:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mh@kernel32.de) Received: from pd9ff8813.dip.t-dialin.net ([217.255.136.19] helo=kernel32.de) by www.cyclades.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AeAQ3-0002JM-00; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:56:08 +0100 Message-ID: <3FFBD7B4.8010207@kernel32.de> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:56:04 +0100 From: Marian Hettwer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031115 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:23:05 -0000 Hi there, Robert Watson wrote: > > > The best advocacy FreeBSD can get is to have happy users explain to the > rest of the world how much they like our cool aid. Or rather, one of the > greatest contributions end-users can make to FreeBSD is to tell their > friends (and then help them get up and going :-). It's also one of the > greatest compliments you can give. Developers are typically fairly bad at > advocacy, and perhaps it's better that the developers work on what they're > good at (since it always seems a few more hands can help). So if you (in > the general sense, not you specifically) like FreeBSD, and feel like > documentation or code aren't your fortes, go out and give a talk at your > local Linux user group about FreeBSD. Or explain to the people at your > company that they could go out and buy Windows, Solaris, or Linux with > support, or they could rely on your own expertise in-house and get the job > done at a fraction of the cost. > For introduction, I've been using FreeBSD since 4.0-release, so I'm still pretty new. I've changed directly from Windows to FreeBSD; never tried Linux before. Anyhow, I'm not a developer, more likely a user and sysadmin. Your hints for giving advocacy to FreeBSD are all very good and I'll keep them in mind. However, if you talk to a company who is already using Linux (and that's what we do) the only freedom I have is to put on my Router/Gateway a FreeBSD, or to put it on my Laptop, if I want to. When I talk to our sysadmins (who are Linux folks), I will always get the answer "This can be done by using Debian, we won't use FreeBSD." And the reason for that ? The momentum of Linux was bigger in the past years, and is still bigger for the time being. The majority of Linux users I know are looking forward to Linux 2.6 and it's pretty hard to convince them to just give FreeBSD a try. So I start blathering about good features. The answer will mostly always be "Linux can do this also". If you than reply that FreeBSD may be still the better choice, than you are in an open flamewar. Which ain't cool and which is the point where I stop discussing, going back to my Laptop and enjoy my FreeBSD. However, when talking about advocacy we may follow your suggestions. Additionally it would be cool if we just get better reviews in magazines. Some Linux magazines write an article about FreeBSD too. But this only happens once or twice in a year. (I'm actually talking about German Magazines, dunno about US or UK mags) Howto improve this ? just my 0,02 EUR. Keep up the good work, and improve talking to end users / non-programmers ;) There are a bunch of "features" missing in FreeBSD which a Laptop definitly needs. best regards, Marian From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 03:42:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F3616A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:42:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45CA543D5A; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:42:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 340ED530A; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:42:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id E50CB5308; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:42:32 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 7E4FC33C9A; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:42:32 +0100 (CET) To: Paul Robinson References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:42:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> (Paul Robinson's message of "Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:28:25 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:42:49 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > If 5.3, when it arrives, is genuinely production ready, trust me, the > drinks are on me - I will do my absolute best to get to the next > BSDcon and get everybody drunk on an expense account. If it isn't, > well, I'll just have to whisper "I told you so" quietly somewhere. I am currently working for an ISP whose infrastructure is based 75% on FreeBSD 5.1. The remaining 25% are a nameserver running 4.7, a mail server and a backup server running 5.2, and a BGP router running a month-old -CURRENT. I am about to start in a new job at a company that builds a high- performance network security appliance based on FreeBSD. The version they travel around with to show off to potential customers runs on -STABLE; the development version runs on -CURRENT. I asked them what it was like to develop on -CURRENT compared to -STABLE. Their answer: "a relief". Now tell me again why you think FreeBSD 5 is a disaster, and why you think we're out of touch with our users and admins. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 03:57:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9376A16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:57:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from amsfep19-int.chello.nl (amsfep19-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C5543D31 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:57:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joao@bowtie.nl) Received: from nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl ([212.142.29.165]) by amsfep19-int.chello.nlESMTP <20040107115728.SNDP9184.amsfep19-int.chello.nl@nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl>; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:57:28 +0100 Received: from hume.intra.bowtie.nl (hume.intra.bowtie.nl [192.168.4.13]) i07BvR6v001821; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:57:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from joao@bowtie.nl) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:58:42 +0100 From: Joao Schim To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040107125842.4d970782.joao@bowtie.nl> In-Reply-To: <3FFBD7B4.8010207@kernel32.de> References: <3FFBD7B4.8010207@kernel32.de> Organization: BowTie Technology BV X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Marian Hettwer Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:57:32 -0000 On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:56:04 +0100 Marian Hettwer wrote: > Keep up the good work, and improve talking to end users / non-programmers > ;) There are a bunch of "features" missing in FreeBSD which a Laptop > definitly needs. But i guess you need a discussion on development direction first. As mentioned OBSD has a strong hand on security. FBSD used to be talked about as technically superior to linux. I dont hear much about that lately. Does FreeBSD choose to be "Laptop Friendly" or will FreeBSD keep the "Power to Serve"-only attitude. Like in an earlier discussion there was talk about FreeBSD does not choose to be a Desktop OS. If advocacy can only be driven in the server-only direction its not gonna spread that well. Thats is ofcourse if you choose such growth.. Choices.. Choices.. Regards, Joao -- =========================================================================== Joao Schim telefoon:(+31)40-2649860 fax:(+31)40-2649861 http://www.bowtie.nl BowTie Technology BV Raiffeisenstraat 7 - 5611 CH Eindhoven From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 03:59:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DDA416A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from tara.freenix.org (keltia.freenix.org [62.4.20.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9164943D5F for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:59:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by tara.freenix.org (Postfix/TLS, from userid 101) id 543F52D7F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:59:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:59:13 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107115913.GB66082@tara.freenix.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <20040107042006.GA65900@kosmos.my.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040107042006.GA65900@kosmos.my.net> X-Operating-System: MacOS X / PowerBook G4 - FreeBSD 5.0 / 2x PIII/800 SMP User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:59:18 -0000 According to Allan Bowhill: > Good idea. That Old-Europe antiterrorism knowhow is just as fresh today > as it was during the Spanish Inquisition. But but... Nobody expect the Spanish Inquisition! Sorry guys, but this is -chat. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr Darwin snuadh.freenix.org Kernel Version 7.2.0: Thu Dec 11 16:20:23 PST 2003 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 04:34:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9CE516A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 04:34:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78F5043D48 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 04:34:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i07CYexk037558; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:34:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040107041307.GA1674@online.fr> References: <20040107041307.GA1674@online.fr> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:55:25 +0100 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Brad Knowles cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:34:59 -0000 At 11:13 PM -0500 2004/01/06, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > So Matt was easy with newbies and aggressive with other developers. There was much more fallout from that than you indicate. Being pissy with other developers meant being pissy in general on the -current mailing list, and meant being pissy with a lot of other people. As much good as he has done for FreeBSD in the past, he was doing more harm than good. When a child is in an abusive household, even if the abuse is not being personally directed at him, there is a highly negative effect on that child which can never be erased. Just being in the vicinity of the abuse is enough. Likewise with newbies in a project where there are frequent public thermonuclear exchanges between highly placed members of the project, in a constant environment of hatred, loathing, sniping, and general pissyness. For the good of the project, it was time for him to either grow up or leave. He made his choice. That's not to say that he didn't make some fantastic contributions to FreeBSD, but in the end his personality problems outweighed his technical contributions. True, he wasn't alone in this kind of behaviour, but it does take two (at least two) to have an argument, and whether he instigated more of the arguments than anyone else, he was the one who most frequently made them worse. I had a problem with my temper when I was in school. I remember being poked and prodded by the bullies, trying to get a reaction from me. I remember being sent to the principal's office more often than just about anyone else. I wasn't the direct cause of the fights, but I was allowing myself to be pushed to the point where I started swinging. I learned to control my temper. I can't say whether or not the is the same kind of situation that Matt has found himself in, but for whatever reason, in the past he has not seemed like he had the ability or the willingness to control his temper. Now, I haven't seen any outbursts from him recently, but then he's been off in his own corner doing his own thing, and hasn't been on these mailing lists very much. Personally, I would like very much to see Matt return to the FreeBSD project, but before I would be willing to let him come back, I would want to see strong evidence that he's been put in similar situations since he left and that he had the self-control necessary to not respond in the same manner that we know all too well. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 04:35:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BF116A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 04:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2D9443D48 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 04:35:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i07CYexm037558; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:35:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040107042006.GA65900@kosmos.my.net> References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <20040107042006.GA65900@kosmos.my.net> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:18:17 +0100 To: Allan Bowhill From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:35:07 -0000 At 8:20 PM -0800 2004/01/06, Allan Bowhill wrote: > : Have you ever heard of "contamination" or "computer error"? What > :about outright abuse of the system? > : > : We computer types should understand the concept of "garbage-in, > :garbage-out", as well as the concept of "no computer is infallible". > > Exactly. Keeping the garbage out is a legitimate goal of the system. Keeping the garbage out of where? The rules were removed months ago that required the FBI to make even a token attempt to ensure that their databases were relatively clean. At this point, anyone with access to any of the data sources which are used to feed those databases could put in anything they want, and law enforcement organizations all around the world would trust that information implicitly because they got it from the FBI, and if you can't trust the FBI then who can you trust? Have you ever heard of this guy called J. Edgar Hoover? Have you ever heard of the crimes that he committed against the country, using the FBI as his own personal mafia? See , specifically: | One must look no further than the Drug Enforcement Administration and | Kevin Tamez. | | Tamez is fifty years old and lives in Mount Laurel, New Jersey, a | pleasant suburb of Philadelphia. Until December Tamez served as the | Associate Special Agent in Charge of the DEA's New York office. But on | Monday, December 15^th, a 214-count indictment was issued against | Tamez, as Reuters reported at the time. Tamez was accused of | "embezzling DEA funds and using federal resources to conduct work for | a private investigations firm." | | What federal resources did Tamez misappropriate? Tamez was charged, | specifically, with "illegally obtaining information from law | enforcement computer systems and databases and using DEA personnel and | resources for work he did for a private investigations firm." | | Imagine Special Agent Tamez as an FBI agent. Imagine him issuing | himself a National Security Letter and proceeding to pass the | information gathered with that Letter on to his client, perhaps your | spouse, perhaps a business competitor. Your bank records aren't all | that Tamez can access. He can access your interactions with virtually | every business that deals in your money -- that is, nearly all. As I | noted earlier, H.R. 2417 allows Tamez to access records "from your | auctions on eBay to your credit card receipts to your insurance | records". > Batting 1000. The biggest act of terrorism in the U.S. was not performed > by insiders. Actually, it was. They were licensed, certified, authorized pilots. They went through all the right channels, had all the right training. They had valid passports. It is unlikely that any of this fingerprinting crap would have caught them -- they probably came over on flights routed through Europe, and therefore would have been exempt. Even if they would have gone through the fingerprinting process, most of their names were not previously suspected of being linked with terrorism, and their fingerprints certainly were not on file. Certainly, none of this would have any bearing whatsoever on the mailbomb/anthrax scare, and never would have had any impact whatsoever on Timothy McVeigh. And don't talk to me about the OKC bombing unless you were there, or you are directly related to someone who was. At the time, my Mom was the HR director for Norman Regional Hospital just 17 miles south of OKC, and pretty much their entire staff hit the road within minutes of the explosion. Being the HR director, she was responsible for counseling these people on what they saw. She got on the road with most of the rest of the staff, and while she didn't make it all the way to ground zero, she was helping out as best she could in a support capacity as close to the area as she could get. She is now an insomniac, and I'm sure that this is no coincidence. > Yeah, false positives can be embarrassing. But what the hell. Care to false positive about a thousand pounds of C4 as a suppository? We're talking about real human lives here, and the livelihood of most businesses and people in the US. Many may not be directly connected to tourism and exports, but all are indirectly connected. The country would never have existed in the first place if the borders had been completely closed, and certainly would cease to exist if the borders were to be completely closed. Economically, the kind of stupidity that the Bush administration is talking about is a death sentence for the country. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 04:49:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C751616A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 04:49:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C52343D55 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 04:49:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AeD85-000CNR-6q; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:49:45 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFC0066.4090704@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:49:42 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Bowhill References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFB56CE.3030109@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107025601.GC65133@kosmos.my.net> In-Reply-To: <20040107025601.GC65133@kosmos.my.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:49:50 -0000 Allan Bowhill wrote: >Your right to convenient passage as a visitor do not override our >right to take measures to protect our own safety and security. > Except, fingerprinting at customs is not a measure that will protect your safety or security. >It has worked not only in a single case, but in many cases, tourists, >terrorists, serial killers, and freeing innocent people who were wrongfully >convicted. > Please provide an example where mass compulsory testing has catched one of the above criminals. The fact that you are implying catching tourists is a good idea is troubling however. >The area of genetic testing has signifcant merit, although you appear >not to accept this. > Oh it does, in establishing identity. I just don't think fingerprinting or genetic testing at airports helps to eastablish identity any more than the passport I carry. >I heard that Brits are exempt from fingerprinting. I hope this changes. >Simply out of fairness to everyone else. > It's the whole EU. We all carry EU passports now. Also, I believe a few states like Taiwan and Singapore are going to be mostly exempt. >The U.S. economy, when healthy, relies on %75 internal spending. >If EU businessmen have a problem with this, they can go fish. > Yeah, 25% is so insignificant. You'd hardly notice it, eh? Despite the dollar being at it's lowest point in decades due to a drop off in investment somewhere around 5-8%, I hear. >I doubt the EU will impose trade sanctions, or sacrifice good business >for the sake of a few irate travelers. > They did for the sake of a few steel workers in the EU. >So what. My Father is a British Citizen, and he thought we should have >dropped every nuke we had on Afghanistan. He would agree you're talking >trash. That doesn't make his hypothetical views relevant to the >discussion. > So, all Afghans are terrorists then? >We are not new to this, as you seem to believe. Terrorism, Piracy and >Organized Crime are all intertwined. > Hahahaha. Now I know you're trolling. >I'm sorry to hear you were almost killed. I don't know much about the >particulars of your domestic terrorism problems, but I am under the >impression that Britain's handling of it is somewhat less than >exemplary. > OK, here's a 101 in Irish Republican Terrorism. Most people who aren't from Britain have an innaccurate/skewed view of what happened. This is obviously not comprehensive, but it'll suffice as an introduction to understanding there were faults all round. But as it might give some scope to your understanding... When the British agreed to pull out of Ireland in the early 20th century (prior to this, the whole of Ireland had been British for several centuries), a large section in the North wished to remain part of the United Kingdom. These loyalists were going to cause one hell of a stink-up, and at the time 80% of the population of those counties were loyalists. So, the Irish and British governments agreed that this area should remain part of the UK. The IRA (as their name implies) didn't want Ireland to be seperated and so started a terrorist campaign. This was all managed reasonably well until 1969. At that stage, the Catholic Unionists in the North were being attacked on a regular basis by the Loyalists. The people who wanted to stay part of the UK were attacking those who wanted NI to become part of the Irish Republic. These attacks against innocent citizens developed to the point where the British army had to intervene. As a result, the army moved in to protect the Catholic unionists from attack. Within about a year though, the loyalists were rejoicing and the unionists were most peeved that NI had become a police state run by the British Army. Attacks from Catholics against the army started to occur, and the IRA ramped up their terrorist campaign. This campaign accelerated after "Bloody Sunday", a day where British Army soldiers fired on unarmed protesting (unionist) citizens. The enquiries into what exactly happened are still going on, but the best guess is a soldier got twitchy, accidently fired, and all hell broke loose as a direct result. Between then and the mid-1990's, the IRA regularly detonated large bombs in the UK against civilian targets. The infighting in NI has continued, and "the troubles" are currently reckoned to have result in approximately 4,000 deaths, mostly of civilians. I have no doubt that number would have been much higher if it wasn't for an agreement between the IRA and the British Security Services (god knows how they did it), that the IRA would phone a keyword warning to a local police station about an hour before a bomb was going to go off, and law enforcement could at least attempt an evacuation. As we stand now, terrorism has ceased on the UK mainland, but there are still incidents in NI itself. Power is being given to the politicians of NI to look after themselves, increasingly important as the unionist/loyalist split in population is no longer 20/80 but more 49/51. It should be pointed out that Gerry Adams (who is to British politics what Osama Bin Laden is to American politics) is in fact an elected British MP. He is unable to take his seat in the House of Commons however, as to take the seat he would need to swear an oath of allegiance to the Monarch of the United Kingdom. Something a former leader of the IRA is unlikely to do... Even so, I've had some close shaves. For background, my mother's family is Irish Catholic (Unionist) and my father's is English Protestant (loyalist). >:Right, so you think the FBI and CIA already have every terrorist's >:fingerprint on file already do you? > >They have some, > Where from? How did they get those then? >and will get more with the help of this system. If > How? You think they'll have "Terrorist" under "Occupation" on their passport? >the terrorists decide not to show up for their flights, fine. All >the better. They can stay home and blow themselves up. > Alas, the preferred method for using planes as missiles is to hijack a plane outside of the US that is US-bound and then use it. So you'll never catch them, or get their fingerprints, until the attack is over... >Not trivial, but possible. All the more reason to go with genetic >sampling. > Which is also not infalliable. >As far as national defense is concerned, it comes at a price. If it's >money rather than lives, let it be money. > You're forgetting to put liberty and freedom for innocent civilians into that equation. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 05:04:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186D616A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE1043D3F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:04:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AeDMW-000CRu-Pl; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:04:40 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:04:37 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:04:42 -0000 I wrote: > Mark has mailed me off-list. His tone isn't great. I probably deserve > the "Fuck off. Go away." I'l deal with that seperately. :-) A few things to say about this: 1. I was not quoting Mark verbatim here. He didn't tell me to go away in the same paragraph. :-) 2. It was a private e-mail, and it's tone/content should have stayed as such, and so I was wrong to allow leakage. 3. The specific context of my mail to which he was replying, that caused him to get upset with me was where I stated in public: "In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core and many with a commit bit will resent you for it, because you're just a user." 4. In private I've already apologised for that particualr comment as I realise now it was very "Daily Mail" of me to make it (for those of you without access to the Daily Mail, congratualations), and it's only fair as it spilled out onto the public lists, that I apologise here too. Mark also apologised for swearing at me. Oh, and I should also add, in an attempt at public humiliation to make sure I behave better in future that in the e-mail where I replied to Mark privately, I finished with the following: "It wasn't meant to be taken as being personally offensive, but I am pissed off that people just said "Oh the start of this thread was just a troll, ignore it" when there were issues that did need to be raised and aired and discussed that the original post touched on (badly). Now I'm just pissed off that never happened in a constructive manner, and I'm part to blame." I think that is a fair summation, and perhaps a good point to let that particular branch of the thread die. And for those of you who normally shout "Submit a patch" - well, I'm thinking about it. :-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 05:30:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E1016A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.cyclades.de (mail.cyclades.de [62.225.173.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F58A43D53 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:30:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mh@kernel32.de) Received: from pd9ff8813.dip.t-dialin.net ([217.255.136.19] helo=kernel32.de) by www.cyclades.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AeDlH-0004WC-00; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:30:15 +0100 Message-ID: <3FFC09D5.5080700@kernel32.de> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:29:57 +0100 From: Marian Hettwer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031115 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joao Schim References: <3FFBD7B4.8010207@kernel32.de> <20040107125842.4d970782.joao@bowtie.nl> In-Reply-To: <20040107125842.4d970782.joao@bowtie.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:30:43 -0000 Joao Schim wrote: > On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:56:04 +0100 > Marian Hettwer wrote: > > >>Keep up the good work, and improve talking to end users / non-programmers >>;) There are a bunch of "features" missing in FreeBSD which a Laptop >>definitly needs. > > > But i guess you need a discussion on development direction first. > As mentioned OBSD has a strong hand on security. FBSD used to be > talked about as technically superior to linux. I dont hear much > about that lately. Does FreeBSD choose to be "Laptop Friendly" or > will FreeBSD keep the "Power to Serve"-only attitude. Like in an > earlier discussion there was talk about FreeBSD does not choose to > be a Desktop OS. If advocacy can only be driven in the server-only > direction its not gonna spread that well. > Thats is ofcourse if you choose such growth.. Choices.. Choices.. > True. Anyhow, don't take the Laptop statement from me to serious. I am aware that FreeBSD is mainly a Server OS. But nevertheless, we have agp support, we have PCMCIA support (lacking CARDBUS in 4.x). And in my opinion, that's what we need. If I do administrate unix servers, I'd like to have a unix on my laptop. And actually, I like my FreeBSD :) I just would like to have full functionality of PCMCIA cards, like cardbus cards. Nevertheless, it's not the main point. The main question was: How to give FreeBSD more PR? best regards, Marian From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 06:30:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D649316A4D1; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4A343D5A; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:30:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) i07EUBmT040749; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:30:11 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)i07EUB2T040748; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:30:11 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])i07ETZMI068819; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:29:35 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:04:37 GMT." <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:29:35 +0000 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:30:21 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > "In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core and many > with a commit bit will resent you for it, because you're just a user." > > 4. In private I've already apologised for that particualr comment as I > realise now it was very "Daily Mail" of me to make it (for those of you > without access to the Daily Mail, congratualations), and it's only fair > as it spilled out onto the public lists, that I apologise here too. Mark > also apologised for swearing at me. I consider hands to have been shaken over this. :-). > And for those of you who normally shout "Submit a patch" - well, I'm > thinking about it. :-) I've been thinking of your objection to the "submit a patch" reply, and I offer this as a proto-thought on how it can be applied to non-coders: As FreeBSD is a volunteer project, I suspect part of the problem is getting said volunteers to do things that they would otherwise not do. "Submit a patch" can be easily(?) extendted to cover a much wider area of volunteer-organised work than simply code. Under specifically _patches_, there are code, documentation and web page patches, but there is also a need for organizational skills. The PR database frequently gets blitzed by keen folks who get lots of PRs closed, follwed by burnout. We are doing rather well with our release-engineering team (Go Scott L!), and our currently active admin@ crowd are doing a great job, but we could still use skills, and these are not necessarily of the coding kind. SO - instead of "submit a patch" perhaps if we were to go "submit something tangible and useful"? This can be anything that will forward the progress of FreeBSD. It could be something lofty like paying the salary of a developer who will then work primarily on projects useful to yourself. It could be commissioned work for a particular project you would like to see done. It could be a financial or equipment donation. It could be a donation of your time in a way that would be useful (please help here by finding something that needs doing and offering to do it, rather than expecting us geeks to find it for you!). It could be _anything_ that forwards the aims of the project and that you can do, and it preferably needs to be something that can be done autonomously (or as autonomously as possible). You will not get paid, you may not get thanked, but you will have the satisfaction of actually getting something done, and if you like FreeBSD as much as I do, that is an end in itself! M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 07:10:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7F316A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:10:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892D243D39; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C5269AB9; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20F7AB8; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:10:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:10:02 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040107070920.P78161-100000@moo.sysabend.org> X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" cc: Robert Watson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd irc X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 15:10:04 -0000 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Dag-Erling [iso-8859-1] Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Jamie Bowden writes: > > Irc.freebsd.org never pointed to an EFNet server, just FYI. > Yes, it did, for a very short time - about two years ago, if memory > serves. Didn't know that. I thought the record was removed after it stopped pointing at a BSDnet server. Jamie Bowden --=20 "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 07:18:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D2316A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfenm.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 585F843D31 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:18:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 691 invoked by uid 1002); 7 Jan 2004 15:18:31 -0000 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:18:31 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20040107151831.GA666@online.fr> References: <20040107041307.GA1674@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.23 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 15:18:33 -0000 Brad Knowles said on Jan 7, 2004 at 12:55:25: > At 11:13 PM -0500 2004/01/06, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > So Matt was easy with newbies and aggressive with other developers. > > There was much more fallout from that than you indicate. Being > pissy with other developers meant being pissy in general on the > -current mailing list, I follow -current quite a lot, and I only ever saw one example where he lost his cool. I don't know about -developers, private mail, etc. I took the "official" explanation at face value back then. I no longer do. It looks more like he was at the wrong end of a personality clash. These things happen and this by itself wouldn't be so bad, but it comes together with everything else in the past year or two. > Personally, I would like very much to see Matt return to the > FreeBSD project Not likely, he has his own space now which is for the best and his project looks exciting. And when he recently commented on -current on the dynamic /bin issue and gave his ideas on how one can use ipc to implement nsswitch in static binaries, he got jumped on by Scott Long. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 09:16:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A29F16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9864D43D8C for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:15:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1AeHGw-0005Nv-00; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 09:15:10 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:15:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Kevin Golding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:16:16 -0000 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Kevin Golding wrote: > >Batting 1000. The biggest act of terrorism in the U.S. was not performed > >by insiders. > > Timothy McVeigh was convicting of killing 168 Americans, including young > children, with his Oklahoma attack. He was American through and > through. > > The WTC attacks were 17 people killing 3000. According to my maths > that's only 176 victims each, many of whom weren't American. > > The biggest act of terrorism may not have been by Americans, but the > terrorist who killed the most Americans was. This reminded me of a TV documentary I watched that discussed the funding and backers of the Oklahoma attack. Now I see that Google brings up many consipracy theories on who inspired and funded the Oklahoma bombing. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 09:19:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5BC16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:19:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from a2.mx.netnorth.co.uk (a2.mx.netnorth.co.uk [82.148.225.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F56543D7D for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:18:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from xaphod@freebsd.co.uk) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=49998 helo=localhost) by a1.mx.netnorth.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1AeGsK-0002qQ-4M for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:50:22 +0000 From: xaphod@freebsd.co.uk To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:50:22 +0000 Subject: Where is FreeBSD going? (View from the trenches) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:19:30 -0000 It seems to be accepted fact that original "Where is FreeBSD going?" post is nothing but a Troll. That said I've always felt that just because something is being said by an idiot it doesn't necessarily follow that what's being said is idiotic. My perception of the responses to the original message is that it touched a raw nerve or two. As a result quite a lot of people have been airing some opinions which, up to know, they've kept to themselves. My opinion is that this is a good thing. Getting stuff out in the open lets people discuss it, and with a bit of luck something good can result. So, as everyone's doing it, I thought I'd lob my opinions into the pot. Apologies in advance if it turn's out that I'm actually lobing around hand-grenades. I've been a user of FreeBSD ever since 1996. As of 1999 I've used FreeBSD as my sole OS. Today employed by a small ISP where all the unix systems are FreeBSD. Indeed, my decision to use FreeBSD has actually had a profound impact on the course of my life. I didn't pick FreeBSD at random, and I didn't pick it by accident. I sat down an invesigated every available alternative. FreeBSD stuck me as the most well documented, best supported, and the most powerful Unix OS on the market. Up to now I've not seen anything that has made me think otherwise. But now I'm finding myself getting a little uneasy. A lot of my current fears stem from the current state of 5. I run 5.1 on my desktop, laptop and servers. I know 5 is not rated for server use, but I evaluate each RELEASE on a case by case basis. In testing 5.0 I discovered it has issues, so I didn't use it. Whereas 5.1 was perfectly stable. So I started using it. Looking at 5.2, without testing it on any of my boxes as yet, my perception is that it's a bit flaky. Now, you could say this situation is entirely my fault, I should never have touched a new technology release until it went STABLE. Frankly, you'd be right, it is my fault. But again it comes back to my perceptions. In this case my perception of what would be happening in the future. When presented with a choice between 4.8-RELEASE, and 5.1-RELEASE I had to consider future upgrades. Upgrading major versions is a pain - a complete reinstall is usually the best course of action. In the case of 4 to 5, there were major changes in the filesystem - so a reinstall would definitely be required. The roadmaps implied that 5.2-RELEASE would be released in September 2003. Furthermore (I've tried to find the evidence I found to suggest this but I can't, so I'm basing this on my imprecise recollection) I did gain the impression that 5-STABLE would be out by 2004. So, all things considered, risking 5.1-RELEASE seemed reasonable. FreeBSD has always struck me as a conservative project. Being a conservative SysAdmin I like this. I like it when changes happen in a careful and considered manner. So even though 5.2 is currently causing me concern, I'm not overly concerned. I can wait and see what the initial reactions are, then investigate it on my laptop then try it on my desktop. When I'm 100% happy I can then go live with it on my server. So I'm not required to use 5.2, any concerns are of little consequence to me, and of no consequence to the FreeBSD community. However, what worries me is the way 5 seem to have become the battle ground for more internecine conflicts amongst different areas of the FreeBSD community than anything that's gone before. GEOM, devd, SMP, static root, etc., etc. Somehow even advocacy is causing conflicts! Okay, so not everybody has opinions on all of, or indeed any of, these subjects. But enough people have an opinion to cause a bikeshed style disagreement. Then sooner or later a member of -core gets involved, and is instantly outnumbered. People start sounding off questioning the judgement made in deciding between two courses of action. Without any intention that it should do so, things then start to get personal. The economic concept "utility" is measure of happiness or satisfaction. Utility is a useful concept for me to use in trying to get my point across. Consider the GPL'd Linux. In addition to any other utility, Linux hackers gain utility by being part of a fight for "Freedom". Whatever the Linux community produces, good or bad, is taken to be a poke in the eye for the likes of Microsoft - and having MS going at Linux gives them the sort of positive feedback, a sort of kudos as it were, that makes them feel good. Which in turn gives them the push to overcome the odd bump in the roadmap. FreeBSD is an open-source project like Linux. Other than what it is, FreeBSD has no underlying ethos. So where is the utility for FreeBSD hackers? Well, if you ask me utility is derived from the fact that writing code is fun. From the fact that by hacking FreeBSD you are part of project that provides others with the best tool for the job. By bikeshedding all the time we are attacking the very thing that give people their utility. We are in away applying negative feedback. Consider the point of view of a somebody who has put in a lot of their own personal time and a lot of coding effort to bring us some new kernel feature. Attacking the efforts of such an individual deprives him of their utility, deprives them of very thing that make their effort worthwhile. So, in the end, it's no different than expecting someone to work for free. Who among us would fail I'd get downright angry if their boss decided not to pay them? So it's not surprising the standard response from committer is "submit a patch". This is nothing more than the FreeBSD equivalent of a tetchy "If you're so clever, do it yourself". I dislike negative feedback. Being dyslexic it takes one comment about bad spelling to make me grumpy for days. To some degree we are all the same. We all hate to hear negative comments, we'd much rather hear nice things. However, we accept that this is not always possible. For instance, I get paid to do my day job. And during the day, my boss has the right to give me any feedback he thinks is relevant. Positive or negative. I can prevent negative feedback by listening to his opinions and instructions, and doing my best to give him what he asks of me. If we disagree we discuss it and because I'm a wage-slave I leave my personality out of it. But FreeBSD does not have wage-slaves. It has people who are trying to have fun. I'd say negative feedback which questions the assumptions underlying a person's fundamental source of fun is a personal attack (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). Most people can rise above such things, and mostly they do. But when it's all you're getting, fairly soon you'll feel entrenched, and ignore all criticism. No matter how well intentioned, or how valid, that criticism. When you think about the motivations of everyone connected with FreeBSD everyone is loosing utility. When -core have their decisions questioned. When -core blow cold on advocacy suggestions from users who feel that's the only way they can contribute. When a knowledgeable someone with no time on their hands tries to pass on some suggestions to a commuter and gets shot down in flames. It's everywhere you look. It's this negative feedback which is destroying FreeBSD. From the trenches, FreeBSD's future looks bleak. I don't care if 5.2 is delayed for however long it takes. I don't really care if it's flaky. Picking 5.x over 4.x is my decision and I'm willing to live with all the consequences. I don't care if 5-STABLE is postponed to 2005. I don't care if xyz is done this way, or that way - I'm willing to defer to them that know more about such things than I do. But I do care that when it arrives 5-STABLE is the best OS that money can't buy. However, we're all too busy bickering that nobody is having fun any more. I have no idea what the solution is. All I know making FreeBSD more democratic is not the answer. If we listen to what everyone says then If we're not careful FreeBSD 5-STABLE will be something we're all responsible for, but which nobody wants. An OS designed by committee... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 09:19:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8A316A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:19:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from a2.mx.netnorth.co.uk (a2.mx.netnorth.co.uk [82.148.225.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C704B43D31 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:19:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from xaphod@freebsd.co.uk) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=49998 helo=localhost) by a1.mx.netnorth.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1AeGsK-0002qQ-4M for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:50:22 +0000 From: xaphod@freebsd.co.uk To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:50:22 +0000 Subject: Where is FreeBSD going? (View from the trenches) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:19:35 -0000 It seems to be accepted fact that original "Where is FreeBSD going?" post is nothing but a Troll. That said I've always felt that just because something is being said by an idiot it doesn't necessarily follow that what's being said is idiotic. My perception of the responses to the original message is that it touched a raw nerve or two. As a result quite a lot of people have been airing some opinions which, up to know, they've kept to themselves. My opinion is that this is a good thing. Getting stuff out in the open lets people discuss it, and with a bit of luck something good can result. So, as everyone's doing it, I thought I'd lob my opinions into the pot. Apologies in advance if it turn's out that I'm actually lobing around hand-grenades. I've been a user of FreeBSD ever since 1996. As of 1999 I've used FreeBSD as my sole OS. Today employed by a small ISP where all the unix systems are FreeBSD. Indeed, my decision to use FreeBSD has actually had a profound impact on the course of my life. I didn't pick FreeBSD at random, and I didn't pick it by accident. I sat down an invesigated every available alternative. FreeBSD stuck me as the most well documented, best supported, and the most powerful Unix OS on the market. Up to now I've not seen anything that has made me think otherwise. But now I'm finding myself getting a little uneasy. A lot of my current fears stem from the current state of 5. I run 5.1 on my desktop, laptop and servers. I know 5 is not rated for server use, but I evaluate each RELEASE on a case by case basis. In testing 5.0 I discovered it has issues, so I didn't use it. Whereas 5.1 was perfectly stable. So I started using it. Looking at 5.2, without testing it on any of my boxes as yet, my perception is that it's a bit flaky. Now, you could say this situation is entirely my fault, I should never have touched a new technology release until it went STABLE. Frankly, you'd be right, it is my fault. But again it comes back to my perceptions. In this case my perception of what would be happening in the future. When presented with a choice between 4.8-RELEASE, and 5.1-RELEASE I had to consider future upgrades. Upgrading major versions is a pain - a complete reinstall is usually the best course of action. In the case of 4 to 5, there were major changes in the filesystem - so a reinstall would definitely be required. The roadmaps implied that 5.2-RELEASE would be released in September 2003. Furthermore (I've tried to find the evidence I found to suggest this but I can't, so I'm basing this on my imprecise recollection) I did gain the impression that 5-STABLE would be out by 2004. So, all things considered, risking 5.1-RELEASE seemed reasonable. FreeBSD has always struck me as a conservative project. Being a conservative SysAdmin I like this. I like it when changes happen in a careful and considered manner. So even though 5.2 is currently causing me concern, I'm not overly concerned. I can wait and see what the initial reactions are, then investigate it on my laptop then try it on my desktop. When I'm 100% happy I can then go live with it on my server. So I'm not required to use 5.2, any concerns are of little consequence to me, and of no consequence to the FreeBSD community. However, what worries me is the way 5 seem to have become the battle ground for more internecine conflicts amongst different areas of the FreeBSD community than anything that's gone before. GEOM, devd, SMP, static root, etc., etc. Somehow even advocacy is causing conflicts! Okay, so not everybody has opinions on all of, or indeed any of, these subjects. But enough people have an opinion to cause a bikeshed style disagreement. Then sooner or later a member of -core gets involved, and is instantly outnumbered. People start sounding off questioning the judgement made in deciding between two courses of action. Without any intention that it should do so, things then start to get personal. The economic concept "utility" is measure of happiness or satisfaction. Utility is a useful concept for me to use in trying to get my point across. Consider the GPL'd Linux. In addition to any other utility, Linux hackers gain utility by being part of a fight for "Freedom". Whatever the Linux community produces, good or bad, is taken to be a poke in the eye for the likes of Microsoft - and having MS going at Linux gives them the sort of positive feedback, a sort of kudos as it were, that makes them feel good. Which in turn gives them the push to overcome the odd bump in the roadmap. FreeBSD is an open-source project like Linux. Other than what it is, FreeBSD has no underlying ethos. So where is the utility for FreeBSD hackers? Well, if you ask me utility is derived from the fact that writing code is fun. From the fact that by hacking FreeBSD you are part of project that provides others with the best tool for the job. By bikeshedding all the time we are attacking the very thing that give people their utility. We are in away applying negative feedback. Consider the point of view of a somebody who has put in a lot of their own personal time and a lot of coding effort to bring us some new kernel feature. Attacking the efforts of such an individual deprives him of their utility, deprives them of very thing that make their effort worthwhile. So, in the end, it's no different than expecting someone to work for free. Who among us would fail I'd get downright angry if their boss decided not to pay them? So it's not surprising the standard response from committer is "submit a patch". This is nothing more than the FreeBSD equivalent of a tetchy "If you're so clever, do it yourself". I dislike negative feedback. Being dyslexic it takes one comment about bad spelling to make me grumpy for days. To some degree we are all the same. We all hate to hear negative comments, we'd much rather hear nice things. However, we accept that this is not always possible. For instance, I get paid to do my day job. And during the day, my boss has the right to give me any feedback he thinks is relevant. Positive or negative. I can prevent negative feedback by listening to his opinions and instructions, and doing my best to give him what he asks of me. If we disagree we discuss it and because I'm a wage-slave I leave my personality out of it. But FreeBSD does not have wage-slaves. It has people who are trying to have fun. I'd say negative feedback which questions the assumptions underlying a person's fundamental source of fun is a personal attack (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). Most people can rise above such things, and mostly they do. But when it's all you're getting, fairly soon you'll feel entrenched, and ignore all criticism. No matter how well intentioned, or how valid, that criticism. When you think about the motivations of everyone connected with FreeBSD everyone is loosing utility. When -core have their decisions questioned. When -core blow cold on advocacy suggestions from users who feel that's the only way they can contribute. When a knowledgeable someone with no time on their hands tries to pass on some suggestions to a commuter and gets shot down in flames. It's everywhere you look. It's this negative feedback which is destroying FreeBSD. From the trenches, FreeBSD's future looks bleak. I don't care if 5.2 is delayed for however long it takes. I don't really care if it's flaky. Picking 5.x over 4.x is my decision and I'm willing to live with all the consequences. I don't care if 5-STABLE is postponed to 2005. I don't care if xyz is done this way, or that way - I'm willing to defer to them that know more about such things than I do. But I do care that when it arrives 5-STABLE is the best OS that money can't buy. However, we're all too busy bickering that nobody is having fun any more. I have no idea what the solution is. All I know making FreeBSD more democratic is not the answer. If we listen to what everyone says then If we're not careful FreeBSD 5-STABLE will be something we're all responsible for, but which nobody wants. An OS designed by committee... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 09:33:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E6C16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:33:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF68143D2D for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:33:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1AeHYR-0005P1-00; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 09:33:15 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:33:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Marian Hettwer In-Reply-To: <3FFBD7B4.8010207@kernel32.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:33:24 -0000 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Marian Hettwer wrote: > Additionally it would be cool if we just get better reviews in > magazines. Some Linux magazines write an article about FreeBSD too. But > this only happens once or twice in a year. (I'm actually talking about > German Magazines, dunno about US or UK mags) > Howto improve this ? Send letters to the editors of the magazines asking them to publish more FreeBSD articles. And specifically ask for certain topics too. Then find writers to submit articles or queries. (Maybe ask advocacy list.) If anyone knows of a magazine that should or has included FreeBSD (or *BSD related) articles, please let me know. I'll be glad to submit query letters. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ p.s. Do not suggest Linux Journal. They gave me a contract saying they don't have kill fees and there is an unknown possibility that articles may be published online (instead of print) for a great reduction in pay (for same work). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 10:07:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50CF16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34ECC43D9D for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:05:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i07I4SHV062552; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:04:28 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i07I4OON062549; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:04:28 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:04:24 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Allan Bowhill In-Reply-To: <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> Message-ID: <20040107194051.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 18:07:26 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Allan Bowhill wrote: > On 0, Narvi wrote: > : > :On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Allan Bowhill wrote: > : > :> On 0, Brad Knowles wrote: > :> :At 5:56 PM +0100 2004/01/06, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > :> : > :> :>> [...] just remember that a meeting of peoples > :> :>> who disagree, who are different, who ... is pretty much undeniably > :> :>> one of the things that does make America great. > :> :> > :> :> America is great? > :> : > :> : No. It has been turned into a police state. > :> : > :> : Prepare to be fingerprinted. > :> > :> Few U.S. citizens haven't been. > : > :you find it reasonable? Besides, it in no way counters the police state > :part, and rather enodorses it. > > How so? There is nothing illegitmate, arbitrary, illegal, secret or > repressive about requiring fingerprints and photos of visitors who come > across our international borders. It is necessary record-keeping. > nothing repressive? whats the colour of sky on the planet you are on? > {Personally I hope genetic fingerprinting ultimately replaces this > system. This method of identification has proven indispensable in > catching criminals who would otherwise have gone unnoticed. It works. > Take Gary Ridegeway for example, who may have killed over 60 women in > Washington State. He would never have confessed (and may never have been > arrested) if the police could not confront him with a solid death > penalty case, supported by genetic evidence. Because the police were > able to confront him with this, he plea-bargained out of death in exchange > for leading the police to his victim's gravesites.) > hah. and you bring some stupid and arbitrary plea bargain as a good reason for geneticly fingerprinting everybody? > :> Why should extranationals have more privilige? > : > :Mainly because they are extranationals? > > Again, why should we trust? > because you want to have international visitors and trade. Oh, and because inbound tourism in US number 2 export at ~ $80 billion. Which is already 20% down from 2000. > No organization (or nation) with plenty to lose will base it's practices > on institutionalized trust. It's always institutionalized mistrust that > makes it possible to conduct business. Like with banks. > US has plenty to lose by having less people visit it. > :Also, they are way less likely to > :commit any crime than those already living inside the US. > > It's anybody's guess without statistics. But it's peripheral to the > reasons for this type of security. Lets take say year 2000. There were 15500+ murders in the US, for a rate of 5.5 per 100000. If the ratio of murders commited by tourists was the same as natives, they should have accounted for over 2400+ murders in year 2002. You can now easily convince by a couple of queries that that was not teh case. The absurd thing is that 9/11 merely meant that peopel in US killed by US citizens had the same per person rate as peopel killed in US by people who came into US. > > The point is to identify and catch people posing as travelers who > are known to be terrorists, or associated with terrorism. If the > system helps law enforcement catch other people on the lam, then > more power to it. except that there not only is no likelyhood that such is achieved but there isn't even any credible description how such would work. > > -- > Allan Bowhill > abowhill@blarg.net > > Etymology, n.: > Some early etymological scholars came up with derivations that > were hard for the public to believe. The term "etymology" was formed > from the Latin "etus" ("eaten"), the root "mal" ("bad"), and "logy" > ("study of"). It meant "the study of things that are hard to swallow." > -- Mike Kellen > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 10:18:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4ED616A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from multiplay.co.uk (www1.multiplay.co.uk [212.42.16.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B2043D39 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:18:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steven@multiplay.co.uk) Received: from vader ([212.135.219.179]) by multiplay.co.uk (multiplay.co.uk [212.42.16.7]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.5.R) with ESMTP id 39-md50000000731.tmp for ; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 18:10:20 +0000 Message-ID: <027601c3d54a$985f3b60$b3db87d4@multiplay.co.uk> From: "Steven Hartland" To: "Lanny Baron" , References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com><3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107145744.GA74418@ussenterprise.ufp.org> <3FFC2444.8090803@FreeBSDsystems.COM> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 18:18:05 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Processed: multiplay.co.uk, Wed, 07 Jan 2004 18:10:20 +0000 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 212.135.219.179 X-Return-Path: steven@multiplay.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD systems X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 18:18:29 -0000 I noticed on the "Where is FreeBSD going?" thread the details of www.freebsdssytems.com does anyone know of a similar company that services the UK. We run a medium sized GSP here in the UK primarly on FreeBSD 4.X and 5.X and would be interested to see if such a worthy operation could better our current hardware suppler. Regards Steve ================================================ This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to postmaster@multiplay.co.uk. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 10:20:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBCF016A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:20:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao08.cox.net (lakemtao08.cox.net [68.1.17.113]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5D643D55 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:20:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitsune@gmx.co.uk) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao08.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20040107182049.JZOG2412.lakemtao08.cox.net@vixen42>; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:20:49 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:19:25 -0600 From: kitsune To: xaphod@freebsd.co.uk Message-Id: <20040107121925.09d01492.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? (View from the trenches) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 18:20:51 -0000 On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:50:22 +0000 xaphod@freebsd.co.uk wrote: > So it's not surprising the standard response from committer is "submit a > patch". This is nothing more than the FreeBSD equivalent of a tetchy > "If you're so clever, do it yourself". There is also a question of time. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 10:52:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E0716A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (zoot.blarg.net [206.124.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1290343D2F for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:52:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BCE33DB5 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i07IqULP068243 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:52:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i07IqTW3068242 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:52:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:52:29 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107185229.GA67808@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFB56CE.3030109@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107025601.GC65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFC0066.4090704@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YiEDa0DAkWCtVeE4" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFC0066.4090704@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 18:52:20 -0000 --YiEDa0DAkWCtVeE4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, Paul Robinson wrote: :Allan Bowhill wrote: : :>The area of genetic testing has signifcant merit, although you appear :>not to accept this. :> :Oh it does, in establishing identity. I just don't think fingerprinting=20 :or genetic testing at airports helps to eastablish identity any more=20 :than the passport I carry. Fingerprinting would probably offer better verification of your identity for our purposes. I say probably, because it's better to have the information in hand rather than to trust a 3rd party for the same thing. :>The U.S. economy, when healthy, relies on %75 internal spending.=20 :>If EU businessmen have a problem with this, they can go fish. :> :Yeah, 25% is so insignificant. You'd hardly notice it, eh? Despite the=20 :dollar being at it's lowest point in decades due to a drop off in=20 :investment somewhere around 5-8%, I hear. I am hard-pressed to believe that the EU has control over %25 of the U.S. economy. The lower dollar is mainly due to the U.S. trade deficit with China, not EU disinvestment, so I heard this morning. :>I doubt the EU will impose trade sanctions, or sacrifice good business :>for the sake of a few irate travelers. :> :They did for the sake of a few steel workers in the EU. =2E. in response to trade sanctions. Bush's idiocy with that particular gesture was only made more idiotic by the fact that he backed out of it. If you want to try sanctioning us for taking protective measures that probably benefit your own security as well, be my guest. I'll be reading the papers. We'll see how far that gets. :>We are not new to this, as you seem to believe. Terrorism, Piracy and :>Organized Crime are all intertwined.=20 :> :Hahahaha. Now I know you're trolling. It may seem a troll to you, but it's the way things really are. :OK, here's a 101 in Irish Republican Terrorism. Most people who aren't=20 :from Britain have an innaccurate/skewed view of what happened. This is=20 :obviously not comprehensive, but it'll suffice as an introduction to=20 :understanding there were faults all round. But as it might give some=20 :scope to your understanding... Thanks for the background. Interesting and well-written. :>:Right, so you think the FBI and CIA already have every terrorist's=20 :>:fingerprint on file already do you?=20 :> :>They have some,=20 :> :Where from? How did they get those then? Probably from EU (and other) intelligence agencies, interpol. Some from U.S. military and intelligence operations overseas. Some from domestic sources. I would not be suprised if we already have access to fingerprints of UK citizens, not to mention those in other EU member countries. If so, I can understand why EU passport holders are exempted from the fingerprinting procedure. :>and will get more with the help of this system. If :> :How? You think they'll have "Terrorist" under "Occupation" on their=20 :passport? They won't have to. The system will make the connection. :>the terrorists decide not to show up for their flights, fine. All :>the better. They can stay home and blow themselves up. :> : :Alas, the preferred method for using planes as missiles is to hijack a=20 :plane outside of the US that is US-bound and then use it. So you'll=20 :never catch them, or get their fingerprints, until the attack is over... Actually, the "preferred method" is to highjack U.S. jets fully-loaded with fuel that leave U.S. airports bound for other destinations in the U.S. The fact they are loaded with fuel is what makes them a bomb rather than a projectile, which is why it's the "preferred method". I expect if an international flight was highjacked just before landing we would force it to land somewhere else, or simply shoot it down. Not a pleasant prospect, but within our right to do so. Perhaps if you thought a little more about the unpleasant options that terrorism presents government, you might see the benefit of employing fingerprinting systems in EU airports as well. :>Not trivial, but possible. All the more reason to go with genetic :>sampling. : :Which is also not infalliable. But a lot less fallible, and therefore a better method. :>As far as national defense is concerned, it comes at a price. If it's :>money rather than lives, let it be money. :> :You're forgetting to put liberty and freedom for innocent civilians into= =20 :that equation. Already accounted for. --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net (Sung to the tune of "The Impossible Dream" from MAN OF LA MANCHA) To code the impossible code, To bring up a virgin machine, To pop out of endless recursion, To grok what appears on the screen, To right the unrightable bug, To endlessly twiddle and thrash, To mount the unmountable magtape, To stop the unstoppable crash! --YiEDa0DAkWCtVeE4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//FVrBC/kSIeFE54RAgLKAKChci33Ux4uTGpL9L28e+Rh/KFzrwCeOsEl WqRq8xrn2Lid1/55jf0IvCw= =Cjtp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YiEDa0DAkWCtVeE4-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 10:57:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0CF16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8EC43D31 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:57:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i07Iupxe054995; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:56:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:32:35 +0100 To: xaphod@freebsd.co.uk From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? (View from the trenches) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 18:57:05 -0000 At 4:50 PM +0000 2004/01/07, xaphod@freebsd.co.uk wrote: > Now, you could say this situation is entirely my fault, I should never > have touched a new technology release until it went STABLE. I didn't say you shouldn't touch it until then. What I meant was that you would be extremely unwise to make any attempt to use it in a production-oriented environment, until it has become -STABLE. Perhaps I should have said this a bit better. I would encourage everyone who can to take an early look at technology such as this at their earliest convenience, but please don't try to use it in a production environment until you're ready to handle the potential fallout. > FreeBSD has always struck me as a conservative project. Being a > conservative SysAdmin I like this. I like it when changes happen in a > careful and considered manner. Agreed. > So even though 5.2 is currently causing > me concern, I'm not overly concerned. I can wait and see what the > initial reactions are, then investigate it on my laptop then try it on > my desktop. When I'm 100% happy I can then go live with it on my > server. That sounds like a wise approach. ;) > However, what worries me is the way 5 seem to have become the battle > ground for more internecine conflicts amongst different areas of the > FreeBSD community than anything that's gone before. GEOM, devd, SMP, > static root, etc., etc. Somehow even advocacy is causing conflicts! Indeed, that has been an issue. Old wounds have been re-opened during this time. We need to redouble our efforts to make sure that we have all put these things behind us, and work towards the betterment of the project as a whole. > But I do care that when it arrives 5-STABLE is the best OS that money > can't buy. However, we're all too busy bickering that nobody is having > fun any more. Well said. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 11:09:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56F816A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA02B43D45; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:09:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i07J9ZHV063089; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:09:35 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i07J9YHd063086; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:09:34 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:09:34 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040107162456.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:09:39 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Narvi wrote: > > > On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Robert Watson wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > > > FreeBSD does need more advocacy if it wants to get the kind of > > > > visibility and credibility that Linux has in the public perception. > > > > Frankly, I'm kind of baffled that it doesn't. I've always found the two > > > > OSes more or less interchangeable and tend to install whichever one > > > > whose CD I can find first. > > > > > > The best advocacy FreeBSD can get is to have happy users explain to the > > > rest of the world how much they like our cool aid. Or rather, one of the > > > greatest contributions end-users can make to FreeBSD is to tell their > > > friends (and then help them get up and going :-). It's also one of the > > > greatest compliments you can give. Developers are typically fairly bad at > > > advocacy, and perhaps it's better that the developers work on what they're > > > good at (since it always seems a few more hands can help). So if you (in > > > the general sense, not you specifically) like FreeBSD, and feel like > > > documentation or code aren't your fortes, go out and give a talk at your > > > local Linux user group about FreeBSD. Or explain to the people at your > > > company that they could go out and buy Windows, Solaris, or Linux with > > > support, or they could rely on your own expertise in-house and get the job > > > done at a fraction of the cost. > > > > i'm not quite sure this is a replacement for a postgersql / gnome / > > openoffice style marketing team though. > > Agreed. It's just a starting point, but one particular benefit of it as a > starting point is that it would bring to people's attention the people > who's contributions to advocacy are most effective, as well as build a > base of marketing materials and volunteers. > > High on my wish list of marketing materials are some 2-page "white papers" > on deploying FreeBSD. Particular, short 2-pagers on FreeBSD as a network > appliance or storage appliance base, as a firewall, and as a database > server. Nicely laid out, business-like, and appropriate for distribution > as PDF or on paper at conferences. I think a starting point should probably be "generic" 2- and 4-pagers that give information about freebsd. The 4-pager could go into more depth as to what exactly 5.x has technology and benefits wise. It will also need to be targeted at an audience - what you want to tell ISV / white box maker / PHB / embedded developer / sysadmin / wannabe hacker / etc (not saying all should be covered or covered from start) would be necessarily different, possibly quite a lot. The non-generic, application specific 2-pagers would then be sort of companions to the 4-pager I guess to showcase a specific application. Or something like that - this is not meant as gospel, just thinking out loud. I do probably have time to spend on this, provided there are others, as there is no way I can spend so much on it to go alone. > > Another thing I'd like to see is a retrofit on the "Power to server" > brand, which I think was one of our more effective slogans. A nice logo > and slogan can go a long way, because people stick them on everything. One > of the ideas I've been poking at is moving to a logo that slightly > deemphasizes the Daemon, and instead connotes "power and reliability" -- > perhaps some sort of train-based logo. Something like: > > F r e e B S D > [train in motion logo] > The Power to Serve Looks ok. Traditionaly, the "lets have a contest" thing around such has given quite bad results (rather, usualy none) - going back all the way to 96/97. Having an art crew is probably a very tough. Or maybe i'm mistaken - the FreeBSD/gnome splash screen is quite nice.I can't personaly draw at all. > > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects > robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 11:40:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D86D16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (ns0.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.69.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 944E143D39 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:40:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:::1])i07Je00I093138 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:40:00 GMT (envelope-from matthew@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: (from matthew@localhost)id i07Je0as093137; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:40:00 GMT (envelope-from matthew) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:40:00 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman To: Steven Hartland Message-ID: <20040107194000.GC89134@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Steven Hartland , Lanny Baron , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3FFC2444.8090803@FreeBSDsystems.COM> <027601c3d54a$985f3b60$b3db87d4@multiplay.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WK3l2KTTmXPVedZ6" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <027601c3d54a$985f3b60$b3db87d4@multiplay.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Lanny Baron Subject: Re: FreeBSD systems X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:40:08 -0000 --WK3l2KTTmXPVedZ6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 06:18:05PM -0000, Steven Hartland wrote: > I noticed on the "Where is FreeBSD going?" thread the details of > www.freebsdssytems.com does anyone know of a similar company > that services the UK. We run a medium sized GSP here in the UK > primarly on FreeBSD 4.X and 5.X and would be interested to see > if such a worthy operation could better our current hardware suppler. I've had good experiences with GND (http://www.gnd.com/) -- whilst not a specialist FreeBSD company, they will happily supply kit spec'd to run or pre-installed with FreeBSD. Cheers, Matthew --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK --WK3l2KTTmXPVedZ6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//GCQdtESqEQa7a0RAuOAAJoD120435FsQcmjpZrt1pLFfDozEgCgiBf7 bfFISc38lZuXtf6SHdgfOzU= =Ywlo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WK3l2KTTmXPVedZ6-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 12:04:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87F216A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:04:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.freebsdsystems.com (mx1.FreeBSDsystems.COM [216.138.197.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B56043D54 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:03:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lnb@FreeBSDsystems.COM) Received: (qmail 40016 invoked by uid 0); 7 Jan 2004 20:03:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.4?) (lnb@216.235.9.82) by 216.138.197.66 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 7 Jan 2004 20:03:13 -0000 From: Lanny Baron To: Matthew Seaman In-Reply-To: <20040107194000.GC89134@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> References: <3FFC2444.8090803@FreeBSDsystems.COM> <027601c3d54a$985f3b60$b3db87d4@multiplay.co.uk> <20040107194000.GC89134@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: FreeBSD Systems, Inc. Message-Id: <1073505803.35140.27.camel@panda.freebsdsystems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 15:03:23 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Frank Small cc: Steven Hartland cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD systems X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:04:03 -0000 Hi Matthew, What can I tell you. They look pretty good. Albeit we use only Intel processors and other components from Intel. We also fully paid for the 5.1 PAE for the FreeBSD community. We have our own version of FreeBSD that we install for certain clients that use up to 20NICs in our 2U iNET2325. As time goes on, we will continue to give to the FreeBSD community. I hope they continue to also support us. Regards, Lanny Baron On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 14:40, Matthew Seaman wrote: > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 06:18:05PM -0000, Steven Hartland wrote: > > I noticed on the "Where is FreeBSD going?" thread the details of > > www.freebsdssytems.com does anyone know of a similar company > > that services the UK. We run a medium sized GSP here in the UK > > primarly on FreeBSD 4.X and 5.X and would be interested to see > > if such a worthy operation could better our current hardware suppler. > > I've had good experiences with GND (http://www.gnd.com/) -- whilst not > a specialist FreeBSD company, they will happily supply kit spec'd to > run or pre-installed with FreeBSD. > > Cheers, > > Matthew -- =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Lanny Baron Proud to be 100% FreeBSD http://www.FreeBSDsystems.COM Toll Free: 1.877.963.1900 =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 12:08:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E644316A4D0; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:08:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilith.bellavista.cz (bellavista.worldonline.cz [212.90.245.154]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB1343D49; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:08:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neuhauser@bellavista.cz) Received: from freepuppy.bellavista.cz (freepuppy.bellavista.cz [10.0.0.10]) by lilith.bellavista.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95CDF5C; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:08:38 +0100 (CET) Received: by freepuppy.bellavista.cz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 775092FDA09; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:08:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:08:38 +0100 From: Roman Neuhauser To: Mark Murray Message-ID: <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Murray , Paul Robinson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:08:47 -0000 # mark@grondar.org / 2004-01-07 14:29:35 +0000: > Paul Robinson writes: > > And for those of you who normally shout "Submit a patch" - well, I'm > > thinking about it. :-) > > I've been thinking of your objection to the "submit a patch" reply, > and I offer this as a proto-thought on how it can be applied to > non-coders: > > As FreeBSD is a volunteer project, I suspect part of the problem > is getting said volunteers to do things that they would otherwise > not do. "Submit a patch" can be easily(?) extendted to cover a much > wider area of volunteer-organised work than simply code. Under > specifically _patches_, there are code, documentation and web page > patches, but there is also a need for organizational skills. The > PR database frequently gets blitzed by keen folks who get lots of > PRs closed, follwed by burnout. We are doing rather well with our > release-engineering team (Go Scott L!), and our currently active > admin@ crowd are doing a great job, but we could still use skills, > and these are not necessarily of the coding kind. Help us (users, port maintainers and random porters w/o commit) help you (committers). There are two areas I can (and do in one of them) participate: ports and documentation. Activities in both areas result in patches, and those need a committer. PRs need more hands, more people who can commit stuff. Quite a few port maintainers could have commit, even limited to just parts of the ports tree (IOW just their ports). The ports freeze seems to last too long with recent releses. Or maybe it's just I've gotten more involved, but out of the last four months (2003/09/07-today), ports tree has been completely open for whopping 28 days. Limitations of CVS don't exactly help either. The fact that you need direct access to the repository to be able to copy a tree with history (repocopy) as opposed to this operation being part of the interface[1], which means being lucky enough to find a committer, and get them commit the stuff within the blink of an eye ports is open, further constrains people's ability to work on FreeBSD with some satisfaction. While minor stuff can be managed by keeping multiple working copies, thorough documentation (or just any, really) on setting up local cvs mirror and using $CVS_LOCAL_BRANCH_NUM is sorely missing; or did I get it right quite recently that this is discouraged because of software issues (ISTR it was jdp@ who said it)? Porter's handbook, and FDP Primer, while valuable (esp. the former) leave many questions unanswered. (I'm not going to further this rant, but will gladly provide feedback to anyone who asks.) [1] has core@ considered subversion (devel/subversion)? -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 12:16:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BEA16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF2943D41 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:16:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AeK63-000Dn7-JK; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:16:07 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFC6902.5010603@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:16:02 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Bowhill References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFB56CE.3030109@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107025601.GC65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFC0066.4090704@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107185229.GA67808@kosmos.my.net> In-Reply-To: <20040107185229.GA67808@kosmos.my.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:16:16 -0000 Allan Bowhill wrote: >Fingerprinting would probably offer better verification of your identity >for our purposes. I say probably, because it's better to have the >information in hand rather than to trust a 3rd party for the same thing. > It as equally valid as a passport. The difference is, if I steal your passport, you know about it and can have it voided so when it gets scanned at customs, I get arrested. If I steal your fingerprint, what you going to do? >I am hard-pressed to believe that the EU has control over >%25 of the U.S. economy. > You mentioned the 25% figure. I did not suggest that the EU was contributing to that full 25%. >If you want to try sanctioning us for taking protective measures that >probably benefit your own security as well, be my guest. I'll be reading >the papers. We'll see how far that gets. > You're missing the point. Not only do they not benefit EU security, they don't benefit US security either. >:>:Right, so you think the FBI and CIA already have every terrorist's >:>:fingerprint on file already do you? >:> >:>They have some, >:> >:Where from? How did they get those then? > >Probably from EU (and other) intelligence agencies, interpol. Some >from U.S. military and intelligence operations overseas. Some from >domestic sources. > And how exactly did they get them? I'm not being funny, but I happen to know quite a bit about intelligence and how law enforcement with relation to terrorism has traditionally worked. The only people they have the fingerprints of that they suspect are terrorists are currently being detained in Cuba. Do you think they just walk around Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia dusting glasses in bars? Or perhaps the terrorists voluntarily supply them to the CIA to make the game more fun? >I would not be suprised if we already have access to fingerprints of UK >citizens, not to mention those in other EU member countries. If so, I >can understand why EU passport holders are exempted from the >fingerprinting procedure. > I can guarantee you that you don't unless there is a specific threat from a specific known individual. The UK and EU data protection laws would basically mean that any action taken by passing those fingerprints around en masse would ensure several politicians and civil servants would not only go to prison, but could in theory stand for trial for treason. The only exception is where Interpol have definite intelligence, in which case the traditional method of distributing photos and using fingerprint for secondary authentication is fine. As it is, any terrorist who suspects his fingerprint to be known to the international law enforcement authorities is more than capable of defeating the system for very little cost. >:>and will get more with the help of this system. If >:> >:How? You think they'll have "Terrorist" under "Occupation" on their >:passport? > >They won't have to. The system will make the connection. > How? You keep saying that the US already has the fingerprints of who they and that it's "obvious" how it will all work, but how? The point is, with the slightest bit of analysis you have to concede that this system benefits nobody but the PR guys at the Whitehouse and the Department of Homeland Security. Being seen to do something is better than not doing anything? >Actually, the "preferred method" is to highjack U.S. jets fully-loaded >with fuel that leave U.S. airports bound for other destinations in the >U.S. The fact they are loaded with fuel is what makes them a bomb rather >than a projectile, which is why it's the "preferred method". > You are out of date, which suggests you don't really know what is going on. Yes, that is how 9/11 was conducted. However, British Airways and Air France has been cancelling flights left right and centre over the last couple of weeks. The main reason is that on a long-haul flight from Heathrow or Paris to LA, the aircraft still has plenty of fuel when it gets to the US borders - in fact it has about the same amount as a flight leaving NYC would have heading to LA. And it normally has plenty of US citizens on it to boot. The plan is also to detonate an explosive on the plane without warning apparently. One BA flight was cancelled last week because it was suggested a female passenger was going to explode a device that she was carrying through security concealed inside her vagina. I think there might be some FUD going on here, but the threat now seems to be from EU airlines. Like I say, we're used to it though, which is why we're not sending over flying bombs... >I expect if an international flight was highjacked just before landing >we would force it to land somewhere else, or simply shoot it down. Not >a pleasant prospect, but within our right to do so. > No, they'd just explode it without warning. No hijacking required. So, how exactly does fingerprinting at borders help there then? -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 12:20:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFDE316A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A5B043D1F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:20:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AeKAO-000DnZ-Ag; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:20:36 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFC6A10.40609@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:20:32 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Narvi References: <20040107162456.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> In-Reply-To: <20040107162456.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Robert Watson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:20:41 -0000 Narvi wrote: >Or something like that - this is not meant as gospel, just thinking out >loud. I do probably have time to spend on this, provided there are others, >as there is no way I can spend so much on it to go alone. > You do know there in an active -advocacy list where this thing will be accepted with both arms and you'll find plenty of people already willing to jump in and help? -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 12:20:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0029716A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1372D43D3F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:20:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i07KJ8Ud010361; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:19:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i07KJ8qg010358; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:19:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:19:07 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Roman Neuhauser In-Reply-To: <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:20:42 -0000 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > [1] has core@ considered subversion (devel/subversion)? Everyone has their eyes wide open looking for a revision control alternative, but last time it was discussed in detail (a few months ago?) it seemed there still wasn't a viable alternative. On the src tree side, FreeBSD committers are making extensive use of a Perforce repository (which supports lightweight branching, etc, etc), but there's a strong desire to maintain the base system on a purely open source revision control system, and migrating your data is no lightweight proposition. Likewise, you really want to trust your data only to tried and true solutions, I think -- we want to build an OS, not a version control system, if at all possible :-). Subversion seems to be the current "favorite" to keep an eye on, but the public release seemed not to have realized the promise of the design (i.e., no three-way merges, etc). You can peruse the FreeBSD Perforce repository via the web using http://perforce.FreeBSD.org/ -- it contains a lot of personal and small project sandboxes that might be of interest. For example, we do all the primary TrustedBSD development in Perforce before merging it to the main CVS repository. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 12:34:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D33F16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (floyd.blarg.net [206.124.128.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA33943D55 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:34:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 414643826B for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i07KYgLP068605 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:34:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i07KYg01068604 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:34:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:34:42 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107203442.GB67808@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <20040107194051.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tjCHc7DPkfUGtrlw" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040107194051.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:34:32 -0000 --tjCHc7DPkfUGtrlw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, Narvi wrote: :On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Allan Bowhill wrote: :> {Personally I hope genetic fingerprinting ultimately replaces this :> system. This method of identification has proven indispensable in :> catching criminals who would otherwise have gone unnoticed. It works. :> Take Gary Ridegeway for example, who may have killed over 60 women in :> Washington State. He would never have confessed (and may never have been :> arrested) if the police could not confront him with a solid death :> penalty case, supported by genetic evidence. Because the police were :> able to confront him with this, he plea-bargained out of death in exchan= ge :> for leading the police to his victim's gravesites.) :> : :hah. and you bring some stupid and arbitrary plea bargain as a good reason :for geneticly fingerprinting everybody? Non-repudiation of identity shows the qualities of the identification syste= m. It's a good and recent example of that. :> Again, why should we trust? : :because you want to have international visitors and trade. Oh, and because :inbound tourism in US number 2 export at ~ $80 billion. Which is already :20% down from 2000. There are service exports and goods exports. Tourism is the second largest service export, ($88 bn) accounting for less than %10 of total exports, which are at $972 bn. Preliminary statistics for 2002, U.S. Office of Travel and Tourism Industri= es http://tinet.ita.doc.gov It's understandable that tourism is down. It's down almost everywhere. You can thank terrorism and a worldwide economic slump for that. Tourism is significant to the U.S. economy. But I doubt a fingerprint system will do much damage to it. If you really want to travel here, just come to terms with the fact that you'll have to stick your index finger in a scanner before you enter the country.=20 I don't know where you got the impression that I think innocent tourists are murderers. That's just silly. :The absurd thing is that 9/11 merely meant that peopel in US killed by :US citizens had the same per person rate as peopel killed in US by people :who came into US. You can't make that assumption. There are no statistics I can see that give any information about the numbers and types of crimes committed in the U.S. by people who are not citizens of the U.S. If you can find a URL, post it. Although interesting, it's not relevant. --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rich Cook --tjCHc7DPkfUGtrlw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//G1hBC/kSIeFE54RAnTaAKC4o7gPoCeDPOCbhYdaqp5WyXGALgCgkxOJ qG14b4bPEbGlEibijNMbkiA= =LdZr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tjCHc7DPkfUGtrlw-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 12:57:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9958016A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED36043D45 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:57:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i07KuOUd010859; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:56:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i07KuOo7010856; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:56:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:56:24 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Lanny Baron In-Reply-To: <1073505803.35140.27.camel@panda.freebsdsystems.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Steven Hartland cc: Frank Small cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD systems X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:57:49 -0000 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Lanny Baron wrote: > What can I tell you. They look pretty good. Albeit we use only Intel > processors and other components from Intel. We also fully paid for the > 5.1 PAE for the FreeBSD community. We have our own version of FreeBSD > that we install for certain clients that use up to 20NICs in our 2U > iNET2325. Hey, wait a moment, we paid for that! :-) Actually, I think we paid for the labor on PAE, and you provided a hefty (and much appreciated) machine for Jake to test it on :-). Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research > > As time goes on, we will continue to give to the FreeBSD community. I > hope they continue to also support us. > > Regards, > Lanny Baron > > On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 14:40, Matthew Seaman wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 06:18:05PM -0000, Steven Hartland wrote: > > > I noticed on the "Where is FreeBSD going?" thread the details of > > > www.freebsdssytems.com does anyone know of a similar company > > > that services the UK. We run a medium sized GSP here in the UK > > > primarly on FreeBSD 4.X and 5.X and would be interested to see > > > if such a worthy operation could better our current hardware suppler. > > > > I've had good experiences with GND (http://www.gnd.com/) -- whilst not > > a specialist FreeBSD company, they will happily supply kit spec'd to > > run or pre-installed with FreeBSD. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Matthew > -- > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > Lanny Baron > Proud to be 100% FreeBSD > http://www.FreeBSDsystems.COM > Toll Free: 1.877.963.1900 > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 13:00:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E68D16A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5645E43D2D; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:00:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i07L0XHV063922; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:00:37 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i07L0XSt063919; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:00:33 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:00:33 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <3FFC6A10.40609@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040107222414.T32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Robert Watson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:00:45 -0000 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Paul Robinson wrote: > Narvi wrote: > > >Or something like that - this is not meant as gospel, just thinking out > >loud. I do probably have time to spend on this, provided there are others, > >as there is no way I can spend so much on it to go alone. > > > > You do know there in an active -advocacy list where this thing will be > accepted with both arms and you'll find plenty of people already willing > to jump in and help? > I know the advocacy list exists. back when it launched (ok, its been a while) it seemed a sort of more "sticks and stones" kind, so i haven't been taking it seriously / paying attention. But whatever - I'll subscribe and repost it there and we'll see what happens. > > -- > Paul Robinson > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 13:10:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1439A16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.freebsdsystems.com (mx1.FreeBSDsystems.COM [216.138.197.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C145443D2F for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:10:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lnb@FreeBSDsystems.COM) Received: (qmail 41304 invoked by uid 0); 7 Jan 2004 21:10:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.4?) (lnb@216.235.9.82) by 216.138.197.66 with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 7 Jan 2004 21:10:26 -0000 From: Lanny Baron To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: FreeBSD Systems, Inc. Message-Id: <1073509836.35140.40.camel@panda.freebsdsystems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:10:36 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Steven Hartland cc: Frank Small cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD systems X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:10:44 -0000 Hi Robert, Yes, you stand correct. We paid Jake for PCI work and gave him one iNET2325. We also gave an iNET2325 to Doug White. He had done some other work iirc that was committed. The work completed thus far on FreeBSDPRO does fix the pci routing and includes a setup (ports) for a complete email system. I am waiting now for Scott to let us know the costs to get FreeBSDPRO up to 5.1 or 5.2. Once we have enough of that done, many parts of that work will be given to the community. I do apologize for my error. Happy New Year Robert! Regards, Lanny On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 15:56, Robert Watson wrote: > On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Lanny Baron wrote: > > > What can I tell you. They look pretty good. Albeit we use only Intel > > processors and other components from Intel. We also fully paid for the > > 5.1 PAE for the FreeBSD community. We have our own version of FreeBSD > > that we install for certain clients that use up to 20NICs in our 2U > > iNET2325. > > Hey, wait a moment, we paid for that! :-) Actually, I think we paid for > the labor on PAE, and you provided a hefty (and much appreciated) machine > for Jake to test it on :-). > > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects > robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research > > > > > As time goes on, we will continue to give to the FreeBSD community. I > > hope they continue to also support us. > > > > Regards, > > Lanny Baron > > > > On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 14:40, Matthew Seaman wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 06:18:05PM -0000, Steven Hartland wrote: > > > > I noticed on the "Where is FreeBSD going?" thread the details of > > > > www.freebsdssytems.com does anyone know of a similar company > > > > that services the UK. We run a medium sized GSP here in the UK > > > > primarly on FreeBSD 4.X and 5.X and would be interested to see > > > > if such a worthy operation could better our current hardware suppler. > > > > > > I've had good experiences with GND (http://www.gnd.com/) -- whilst not > > > a specialist FreeBSD company, they will happily supply kit spec'd to > > > run or pre-installed with FreeBSD. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Matthew > > -- > > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > > Lanny Baron > > Proud to be 100% FreeBSD > > http://www.FreeBSDsystems.COM > > Toll Free: 1.877.963.1900 > > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > -- =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Lanny Baron Proud to be 100% FreeBSD http://www.FreeBSDsystems.COM =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 13:17:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC5AD16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:17:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64C743D58 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:17:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i07LGPUd011165; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:16:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i07LGPFQ011162; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:16:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:16:25 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Lanny Baron In-Reply-To: <1073509836.35140.40.camel@panda.freebsdsystems.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Steven Hartland cc: Frank Small cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD systems X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:17:50 -0000 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Lanny Baron wrote: > Yes, you stand correct. We paid Jake for PCI work and gave him one > iNET2325. We also gave an iNET2325 to Doug White. He had done some other > work iirc that was committed. > > The work completed thus far on FreeBSDPRO does fix the pci routing and > includes a setup (ports) for a complete email system. > > I am waiting now for Scott to let us know the costs to get FreeBSDPRO up > to 5.1 or 5.2. Once we have enough of that done, many parts of that work > will be given to the community. Sounds good to me :-). In fact, it all sounds very good! > I do apologize for my error. No problem, I was just making sure :-). > Happy New Year Robert! Happy New Year! Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research > > Regards, > Lanny > > On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 15:56, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Lanny Baron wrote: > > > > > What can I tell you. They look pretty good. Albeit we use only Intel > > > processors and other components from Intel. We also fully paid for the > > > 5.1 PAE for the FreeBSD community. We have our own version of FreeBSD > > > that we install for certain clients that use up to 20NICs in our 2U > > > iNET2325. > > > > Hey, wait a moment, we paid for that! :-) Actually, I think we paid for > > the labor on PAE, and you provided a hefty (and much appreciated) machine > > for Jake to test it on :-). > > > > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects > > robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research > > > > > > > > As time goes on, we will continue to give to the FreeBSD community. I > > > hope they continue to also support us. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lanny Baron > > > > > > On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 14:40, Matthew Seaman wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 06:18:05PM -0000, Steven Hartland wrote: > > > > > I noticed on the "Where is FreeBSD going?" thread the details of > > > > > www.freebsdssytems.com does anyone know of a similar company > > > > > that services the UK. We run a medium sized GSP here in the UK > > > > > primarly on FreeBSD 4.X and 5.X and would be interested to see > > > > > if such a worthy operation could better our current hardware suppler. > > > > > > > > I've had good experiences with GND (http://www.gnd.com/) -- whilst not > > > > a specialist FreeBSD company, they will happily supply kit spec'd to > > > > run or pre-installed with FreeBSD. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Matthew > > > -- > > > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > > > Lanny Baron > > > Proud to be 100% FreeBSD > > > http://www.FreeBSDsystems.COM > > > Toll Free: 1.877.963.1900 > > > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > -- > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > Lanny Baron > Proud to be 100% FreeBSD > http://www.FreeBSDsystems.COM > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 13:46:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6ED16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (floyd.blarg.net [206.124.128.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577E843D45 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:46:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A663C38254 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i07Lj8LP068886 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i07Lj7QU068885 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:45:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:45:07 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107214507.GE67808@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFB56CE.3030109@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107025601.GC65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFC0066.4090704@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107185229.GA67808@kosmos.my.net> <3FFC6902.5010603@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0QFb0wBpEddLcDHQ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFC6902.5010603@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:46:52 -0000 --0QFb0wBpEddLcDHQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, Paul Robinson wrote: :>Actually, the "preferred method" is to highjack U.S. jets fully-loaded :>with fuel that leave U.S. airports bound for other destinations in the :>U.S. The fact they are loaded with fuel is what makes them a bomb rather :>than a projectile, which is why it's the "preferred method". : :You are out of date, which suggests you don't really know what is going=20 :on. Yes, that is how 9/11 was conducted. I don't pretend to have inside information into current the plans of terrorists. I can only go on what I read in the papers, and hear on the radio and TV. Online Brit papers and broadcasts included. On the other hand, if you have inside information about what the=20 terrorists are plotting next, don't hold back... :However, British Airways and Air France has been cancelling flights left= =20 :right and centre over the last couple of weeks. The main reason is that=20 :on a long-haul flight from Heathrow or Paris to LA, the aircraft still=20 :has plenty of fuel when it gets to the US borders - in fact it has about= =20 :the same amount as a flight leaving NYC would have heading to LA. And it= =20 :normally has plenty of US citizens on it to boot. The plan is also to=20 :detonate an explosive on the plane without warning apparently. Explain how a 747 or 777 has more fuel on crossing the borders of the U.S. on it's way to LAX than a 747 or 777 has before taking off from JFK to LAX. My understanding is a large percentage of fuel is used just to get to cruise altitude and speed. Then there is the jet stream to fight in that direction. Then there is the fact (or so I was told by a Bombardier pilot) that sometimes long-haul flights do not have all that much fuel left when they arrive at their destination. But that was a small jet. But I don't think planning all that much different in principle for larger jets. The plan you mention doesn't seem to jibe with the fact that there is plenty of fuel on board on arrival. If there was, why woudn't a terrorist highjack the plane as it approached its destination? The payoff would be to take down buildings, not just blow the plane up. Anyway, if your fuel claims are true, then the simple answer is to ban flights from LAX to European destinations. It's better than=20 trying to finger passengers. :One BA flight was cancelled last week because it was suggested a female=20 :passenger was going to explode a device that she was carrying through=20 :security concealed inside her vagina. I think there might be some FUD=20 :going on here, but the threat now seems to be from EU airlines. Like I=20 :say, we're used to it though, which is why we're not sending over flying= =20 :bombs... Glad to hear that. :>I expect if an international flight was highjacked just before landing :>we would force it to land somewhere else, or simply shoot it down. Not :>a pleasant prospect, but within our right to do so. :> : :No, they'd just explode it without warning. No hijacking required. :So, how exactly does fingerprinting at borders help there then? By the terrorist plans you cited above, it would be your responsibility to identify and screen passengers. You can do this with red tape, index cards, or whatever. If electronic fingerprinting solutions and databases give you the willies, you don't have to use them. --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net "Not only is this incomprehensible, but the ink is ugly and the paper is from the wrong kind of tree." -- Professor W. --0QFb0wBpEddLcDHQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//H3iBC/kSIeFE54RAkJFAKDEUqmRNzEOtEtT26Faylo0taKSgwCgmlc6 H77gWgL2B+fgHXfE1E+UeWw= =nZj/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0QFb0wBpEddLcDHQ-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 13:47:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3908116A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:47:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [216.152.64.131]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83B543D41 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:47:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however ([206.171.168.138]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:47:14 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Chat@Freebsd. Org" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:47:13 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <32820.68.33.78.247.1073441935.squirrel@snaphat.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2055 Importance: Normal Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:47:20 -0000 > Moreover, you can't reasonably complain about the > person who gets elected, if you didn't vote. And, of course, you can't reasonably complain about the person who gets elected if you vote and lost fair and square. Both arguments are equally persuasive. In fact, one can argue that you have less right to complain if you chose to join knowing that rule would be by election. DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 14:18:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8A316A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:18:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (adsl-068-157-070-217.sip.jan.bellsouth.net [68.157.70.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3094843D2F for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:18:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-157-169.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.157.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022931522C for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:18:32 -0600 (CST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 11BCE20F3D; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:18:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:18:29 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107221829.GG48603@over-yonder.net> References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFB56CE.3030109@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107025601.GC65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFC0066.4090704@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107185229.GA67808@kosmos.my.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040107185229.GA67808@kosmos.my.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 22:18:34 -0000 On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 10:52:29AM -0800 I heard the voice of Allan Bowhill, and lo! it spake thus: > On 0, Paul Robinson wrote: > :You're forgetting to put liberty and freedom for innocent civilians into > :that equation. > > Already accounted for. Ben Franklin might have something to say about that... -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 15:00:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF4B16A586 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ice.dls.net (ice.dls.net [209.242.10.147]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF5943D48 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:00:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from emailrob.com (216.145.235.154) by anvil.dls.net (MX V5.3 AnFj) with ESMTP for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:00:29 -0600 Message-ID: <3FFCABEE.8070306@emailrob.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:01:34 -0800 From: rob_spellberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFB56CE.3030109@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107025601.GC65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFC0066.4090704@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107185229.GA67808@kosmos.my.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:00:46 -0000 in following this thread, i had a thought about the differences between u. s. and e. u. thinking and it led to some other thoughts as well. anyone out there remember that tired anti-vietnam-war interrogative, "what if they gave a war - and nobody came?"? it seems to me that, for terrorism to succeed [ in particular, the kind waged against a random sampling of the target population involving bombs, civilian locations and otherwise uninvolved children ], at least a significant minority of the population in question and a majority of its opinion shapers must be agreed that they are willing to be terrorized. the last serious wave of political bombings in the u. s. was perpetrated by radical anarchist/socialist types in the 1880's. it didn't last long because nobody else wanted to play their game. they were found; they were hanged. no twenty years of appeals to the supremes. over on this side of the pond, bombing just isn't done. it gets the same sort of disapproving sneer that someone would rightfully expect if they were to switch to their white limousine before easter. so, yeah, more or less, it --is-- new to us. the difference is that we don't feel any obligation to get accustomed to it. we rather liked things the way they were and we want a "return to normalcy". as for the other side of the pond, the typical e. u. denizen's complaint seems to be that we americans just aren't "european enough". if only we were as enlightened as, say, the belgians, we would realize that it is first necessary to understand the grievances of the bomber. why is he so filled with angst? sorry, no can do. europeans like to talk and talk and talk until they reach a consensus. americans like to get things done. the business of america is business and terrorism gets in the way. it's as simple as that. however, in europe, everyone has had his say and it is agreed: nothing can be done. so here's my question. what if a group of demented, disaffected types decided to throw a terrorism campaign and nobody showed up? what if the target population refused to play victim? here's the correct answer. it applies in the u. s., the e. u., ireland, israel, iraq; everywhere, actually: terrorism is not healthy for children and other living things. here's the american solution. anonymity is a luxury for those who walk the straight and narrow. it is necessary for those who want to be merely shameful. but it is an absolute essential for the doers of evil. i am not happy that my supply of anonymity is being reduced. i am also not happy that i find myself looking at the sears tower more intently when i have reason to be in the chicago loop, as i will next week. i miss the superb beef wellington at the restaurant on the 95th floor of the john hancock building [ sure, it was overpriced, but on a clear day you can see forever ]. in a dynamic economy, jobs are lost and jobs are created. there is some serious money to be made [ oh, how gauche! ] by finding ways to enhance security for societies in the macro, while retaining individual political and economic liberties in the micro [ such as voting for the candidate of your choice, running for office yourself when the usual candidates suck, being able to decide for yourself the identity of your employer, starting your own business because the usual bosses suck, living anywhere you want within your means, being able to constructively criticize an elected official, being able to compare an elected president with an elected chancellor, posting to an internet mailing list, etc., etc., etc. ]. it's about what is really important vs. minor inconveniences. microcontrollers are embedded in coffee pots and dogs, not humans. it may require that each of us has to have a document trail gigabytes in length. just remember, on that tuesday morning, more than a few had to make a snap decision: do i stay here and burn alive or do i break the window and jump? some of them were liberals. so if officers gidney and cloyd are watching the monitors of the outdoor cameras in the hardened underground bunker of the homeland security department [ to pick a metaphor, admittedly far-fetched ] and my face comes up, i want them to be able to rapidly determine that i am not a threat to public safety, even if they --do-- think my political and economic theories are wacky. the less time they spend on the harmless, the more time that is available for real threats. some of them need to be scrooched. look on the bright side, it just might reduce the incidence of adultery. that's good for private safety. rob From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 15:17:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DDB16A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3DA43D45; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:17:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i07NHhtV065414; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:17:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i07NHaM9065411; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:17:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:17:36 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200401072317.i07NHaM9065411@apollo.backplane.com> To: jsd@jdyson.com References: <200401062000.i06K0hSI012184@dyson.jdyson.com> cc: Wes Peters cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Maxim Hermion cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Munden Randall J Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:17:57 -0000 :It is INTERESTING to comment on someone whose viewpoint doesn't extend :beyond the VM system, because out of Greenman, me and even Matt Dillon, :(and the extremely respected alc), I don't know of any people :with a myopic VM viewpoint. An example of that might be Matts ability :and succes dealing with the VERY IMPORTANT NFS issues, or perhaps my implementation :of the vfs_bio merged cache, minimal-copy pipe code, kernel memory management :improvements (which aren't really VM per se), early playing with the ATA :driver, SIGNIFICANT filesystem work (e.g. the vastly improved LFS didnt' :get installed because of softupdates making it redundant), careful rework of :certain portions of low level code, and it is definitely ludicrous :to claim that Greenman was VM myopic. Currently in FreeBSD-5 there are far fewer people able to work on a wide range of subsystems due to the complexity of the SMP environment. That should be clearly obvious to everyone... I rarely see cross-disciplinary commits (though there are other reasons for that observation beyond the complexity of the SMP environment). Certainly I see far fewer such commits then occured in the 4.x days. Focus is good, but the complexity of the APIs are such that as some of the current developers move on to other things large swaths of code are going to start to become unattended through lack of understanding, and it could potentially swamp the relatively few interdisciplinary people left in the project. The SMP interactions that John mentions are not trivial... they would challenge *ME* and regardless of what people think about my social mores I think most people would agree that I am a pretty good programmer. I have no doubt that FreeBSD-5 can be stabilized with the current development crew, but the warning signs abound and if the SMP environmental interfaces are not simplified FreeBSD-5 will end up in serious trouble down the line. The idea (that some people have stated in later followups to this thread) that the APIs themselves will stabilize is a pipedream. The codebase may become reasonably stable, but there are a lot of things in there that people are going to want to rewrite in coming years, and rewriting by people other then the original authors is one of the reasons why we had so much trouble in the 2.x and 3.x days. Look at how little VFS has been touched in the intervening years despite the fact that it is obvious that it has needed a serious rewrite for the last decade. I can barely figure it out even now and I have spent hundreds of hours working on VFS. I mean, I don't think anyone can honestly say that the scheduler is 'done', or even close to done. Look at how long the original 42 scheduler was worked on after it was originally finished? Same goes for the VM system, VFS, the slab allocator, the mutex related code, the USB code (EHCI for example), and everything else. Simplifying maintainance should be of paramount concern to everyone, and the number one most complex issue in FreeBSD-5 right now are the SMP related APIs and non-deterministic scheduler side effects like preemptive cpu migration, indirect preemptive switching to non-interrupt threads due to priority borrowing, and non deterministic side effects from blocking in a mutex (because mutexes are used for many things now that spl's were used for before, this is a very serious issue). See? I didn't mention DragonFly even once! Ooops, I didn't mention DFly twice. oops! Well, I didn't mention it more then twice anyway. -Matt From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 18:27:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2451116A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 18:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from skywalker.rogness.net (skywalker.rogness.net [64.251.173.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9917F43D46; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 18:27:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nick@rogness.net) Received: from skywalker.rogness.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by skywalker.rogness.net (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id i082TSPb015190; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:29:28 -0700 (envelope-from nick@rogness.net) Received: from localhost (nick@localhost)i082TS2d015186; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:29:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: skywalker.rogness.net: nick owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:29:28 -0700 (MST) From: Nick Rogness To: Mark Linimon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 02:27:51 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Mark Linimon wrote: > > > In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core > > and many with a commit bit will resent you for it, because > > you're just a user. > > What you may be interpreting as resentment may actually just > be frustration at being once again in the middle of being > told "things are broken" without concrete suggestions about > how it can be fixed. Please come up with some kind of > definite proposal that you think would alleviate your, and > others', concerns; and post it and let us discuss it. Keep > in mind that as you do so it's a volunteer project, and you > have to address the interests of the current volunteers too. > Perhaps you can suggest a way to bring more volunteers in > without losing any of the existing ones. I certainly don't > have any answers to these kinds of questions; let me take > a look at yours. You asked for suggestions/proposals for discussion so I came up with a few: 1) Allow for paid development for a specific bug/feature - Setup some program that allows users like myself to pay for a developers time to fix a specific bug. The company I work for would easily pay serious dollars to fix our SMP problems with 4.X. Unfortunetly, getting someone's attention that has a great understanding of the OS is hard to find without rude remarks and what-not. You could even extend it as far as saying we will promote this PR to the top of the list of tasks if you pay us XX dollars. Or maybe, the more you pay the higher you go. This would reassure the user base that things CAN get done if needed and also let the developer/bug fixer feel like they can make money and have some fun. It will also bring in money for the project as part of that money could go back into the Project. You could easily setup a "pool" mailling list (like -requests) which someone like myself would email a request with the problem description (or PR). If a developer is interested in tackling the problem for money, we could privately negotiate a price. The same can be done for driver development and others. Make it a "Donation for a specific request". I don't want to give money to some Foundation where money can be thrown around in the wrong areas. I want to pay the developer personally for their efforts. ( I feel the same should be done with our taxes as well ;-) 2) Setup a mailling list for just new developer questions. - A mailling list where someone can ask a stupid programming question without being ridiculed would be nice. Some of us know how to code but are intimidated to ask as most times some a$$hole always responds with some crack. This happens often on -questions and puts a bad taste in my mouth. Of course, this would assume that only some very tolerant -hackers would want to subscribe to and help answering questions. This would/could bring in more development. 3) Simple but time consuming requests from developers - Isn't it possible to have developers pass off some of their simple tasks to others? Think of it like a "pet dog". Your dog may be able fetch your newspaper but he couldn't read it. Still fetching the newspaper takes time! The requests I see are usually Jr. kernel type requests. Everyone wants to contribute at the kernel level but that takes a lot of knowhow and experience working with fbsd's kernel. Let users get involved with simple (stupid) tasks which are time consuming. Now define "simple"... 4) More FreeBSD (Con) promotion - I see little news about FreeBSD anymore. Not sure what to do here. I can tell you that people need to be told what to do. If someone needs some help with promoting FreeBSD, the've gotta ask. - Where the hell is the FreeBSDCon website? Keep the current development talks at FreeBSDCon but add more user/admin type talks (not sure what it was last year cause I can't find the website). Promote it better...don't have the money? read #5 5) Other contributions - There have got to be things not related to development that can help the FreeBSD project out. A large user base that wants to contribute but can't code worth a hoot can contribute in other ways, e.g. FreeBSD Con promotion-flyers,website logos, news articles. I could go on for hours about trivial things I'm sure people would contribute. Just a couple of thoughts for bringing in new volunteers and keep the old ones happy. -- Nick Rogness - How many people here have telekenetic powers? Raise my hand. -Emo Philips From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 19:46:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EBEA16A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:46:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mhub-c6.tc.umn.edu (mhub-c6.tc.umn.edu [160.94.128.36]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDC543D5C; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:45:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ryans@gamersimpact.com) Received: from [24.107.70.120] by mhub-c6.tc.umn.edu with ESMTP; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:45:36 -0600 From: Ryan Sommers To: Nick Rogness In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:45:25 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 03:46:06 -0000 On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 20:29, Nick Rogness wrote: > 1) Allow for paid development for a specific bug/feature > > - Setup some program that allows users like myself to pay for a > developers time to fix a specific bug. The company I work for > would easily pay serious dollars to fix our SMP problems with 4.X. > Unfortunetly, getting someone's attention that has a great > understanding of the OS is hard to find without rude remarks and > what-not. > > You could even extend it as far as saying we will promote this PR > to the top of the list of tasks if you pay us XX dollars. Or > maybe, the more you pay the higher you go. > > This would reassure the user base that things CAN get done if > needed and also let the developer/bug fixer feel like they can > make money and have some fun. It will also bring in money for the > project as part of that money could go back into the Project. > > You could easily setup a "pool" mailling list (like -requests) > which someone like myself would email a request with the problem > description (or PR). If a developer is interested in tackling the > problem for money, we could privately negotiate a price. > > The same can be done for driver development and others. Make it a > "Donation for a specific request". I don't want to give money to > some Foundation where money can be thrown around in the wrong > areas. I want to pay the developer personally for their efforts. > ( I feel the same should be done with our taxes as well ;-) > I really don't like the idea of making this a "policy," or even some official part of the project. I think this might discourage some from contributing in hopes to be paid for it. I think a better solution for companies looking for this would be to post to the jobs@ mailing list noting that it is a temp job. I don't think giving priority to paying entities is a path the project should tread down. If someone needs FreeBSD developer work they should look for someone to hire. Something like this might also jeopardize the project's "not for profit" status. I think the jobs@ mailing list would be a better start. (I'm going to be looking for a full time job in about 11 months and if I got one where I got to code/administer BSD I'd feel I was in Heaven.) :-) > > 2) Setup a mailling list for just new developer questions. This would be a great idea, however, it might be something the hackers@ list was originally intended for. Unfortunately I think no matter what list you create there will always be those feelings and people that will speak like that. People just have to remember that although it may sound as if someone is ridiculing them it might not be there intention. The Internet is a rather flat medium for communicating emotion. > > 3) Simple but time consuming requests from developers > > - Isn't it possible to have developers pass off some of > their simple tasks to others? Think of it like a "pet dog". > Your dog may be able fetch your newspaper but he couldn't read it. > Still fetching the newspaper takes time! > > The requests I see are usually Jr. kernel type requests. > Everyone wants to contribute at the kernel level but that takes > a lot of knowhow and experience working with fbsd's kernel. Let > users get involved with simple (stupid) tasks which are time > consuming. Now define "simple"... > Again, I think a JKH (Junior Kernel Hacker) list (like the one PHK had for awhile) would be a great addition. I'll even volunteer to maintain it if developers were willing to help me by providing these small "projects" for people to work on. As someone attempting to join the ranks of people in the "Submitted by:" log lines this is one of the hardest things for me to do is find something I can work on. I think this might be some duplication of the PR database; some PRs are things that could be accomplished without too much skill. I think the trouble though is wading through to find these specific issues. Perhaps such a list could contain cross-references to the PR db. -- Ryan Sommers ryans@gamersimpact.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 20:24:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F229F16A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:24:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabby.gsicomp.on.ca (CPE00062566c7bb-CM000039c69a66.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [24.192.222.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D335043D41; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:24:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Received: from hermes (hermes.gsicomp.on.ca [192.168.0.18]) by gabby.gsicomp.on.ca (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with SMTP id i084P88P026712; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:25:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Message-ID: <006601c3d59e$ec98ece0$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> From: "Matt Emmerton" To: "Ryan Sommers" , "Nick Rogness" References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:21:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 04:24:50 -0000 > > 3) Simple but time consuming requests from developers > > > > - Isn't it possible to have developers pass off some of > > their simple tasks to others? Think of it like a "pet dog". > > Your dog may be able fetch your newspaper but he couldn't read it. > > Still fetching the newspaper takes time! > > > > The requests I see are usually Jr. kernel type requests. > > Everyone wants to contribute at the kernel level but that takes > > a lot of knowhow and experience working with fbsd's kernel. Let > > users get involved with simple (stupid) tasks which are time > > consuming. Now define "simple"... > > Again, I think a JKH (Junior Kernel Hacker) list (like the one PHK had > for awhile) would be a great addition. I'll even volunteer to maintain > it if developers were willing to help me by providing these small > "projects" for people to work on. As someone attempting to join the > ranks of people in the "Submitted by:" log lines this is one of the > hardest things for me to do is find something I can work on. The only problem with a JKH list is that there need to be committers willing to review and commit PRs that are created from the tasks on the list. About a year ago I started working on one of PHK's tasks, opened up 4 PRs, and found absolutely nobody willing to review or commit them. After a month of pinging people and waiting for feedback (and getting absolutely none), I just stopped working on it. It's these kinds of impasses that prevent people who have the skills and time from actually contributing to the project. There really isn't any use opening PRs and creating patches if they're never going to get committed (or by the time someone decides to commit them, the patches need to be moved forward 3 or 4 releases.) -- Matt Emmerton From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 20:36:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4119416A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0147F43D45 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:36:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23765; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:36:10 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040107213502.03c17340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:36:11 -0700 To: Allan Bowhill , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 04:36:19 -0000 At 05:10 PM 1/6/2004, Allan Bowhill wrote: >No organization (or nation) with plenty to lose will base it's practices >on institutionalized trust. Nonsense. America is (or was, at any rate) based on institutionalized trust. Hence, "innocent until proven guilty." This is going away under Bush and his gang, though. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 22:17:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B4116A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:17:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D933443D3F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:17:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24592; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:17:14 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040107214422.03c16cd8@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:45:06 -0700 To: Avleen Vig From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20040107024735.GW2838@silverwraith.com> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105134236.03b51cc0@localhost> <20040107024735.GW2838@silverwraith.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:17:23 -0000 At 07:47 PM 1/6/2004, Avleen Vig wrote: >Advocacy is NOT a race Yes, it is. Linux is where it is today because it grabbed more buzz, sooner, than BSD. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 23:07:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1F016A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (73.Red-213-97-200.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FBE143D39; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:07:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from energyhq.es.eu.org (scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org [192.168.100.1]) by mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46483356F2; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:07:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3FFD01CE.5070301@energyhq.es.eu.org> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 08:07:58 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031211 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Dillon References: <200401062000.i06K0hSI012184@dyson.jdyson.com> <200401072317.i07NHaM9065411@apollo.backplane.com> In-Reply-To: <200401072317.i07NHaM9065411@apollo.backplane.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.82.4.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Munden Randall J cc: jsd@jdyson.com Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:07:10 -0000 Matthew Dillon wrote: > interdisciplinary people left in the project. The SMP interactions > that John mentions are not trivial... they would challenge *ME* and > regardless of what people think about my social mores I think most > people would agree that I am a pretty good programmer. My thoughts exactly. Every time I have this kind of argument, be it on irc or in a mailing list, I get told that Sun needed X years to do the fine grained locks in Solaris and other similar crap. Solaris was possible because Sun could throw more engineers at the problem if needed. FreeBSD is not in such situation. How many people have intimate knowledge of the VM subsystem? How many people besides John Baldwin have ever touched the SMPng code? I don't think anybody has doubts about your programming-fu, btw :) > serious trouble down the line. The idea (that some people have stated > in later followups to this thread) that the APIs themselves will > stabilize is a pipedream. The codebase may become reasonably stable, Agreed. Like I've said, the main problem I see is complexity. It wouldn't matter as much if there were 5-10 people with deep knowledge of SMPng, but with 1 or 2 hackers working on it, the chance that everything will be ever fixed is quite small. > but there are a lot of things in there that people are going to want > to rewrite in coming years, and rewriting by people other then the > original authors is one of the reasons why we had so much trouble in > the 2.x and 3.x days. Look at how little VFS has been touched in the It depends whether we're talking about evolutionary changes or revolutionary changes. Are you talking about radical changes like e.g. moving from the BSD scheduler to ULE or more like interface and code refactorization? In the former, yes, new bugs will be introduced, which leads again to the problem of too complex code managed by too few people. > I mean, I don't think anyone can honestly say that the scheduler is > 'done', or even close to done. Look at how long the original 42 scheduler IMHO ULE is making progress quite fast. I wouldn't rely on it for production, but so far is looks very good. > non-interrupt threads due to priority borrowing, and non deterministic > side effects from blocking in a mutex (because mutexes are used for > many things now that spl's were used for before, this is a very > serious issue). Yes, that's the main problem I see, not much on the scheduler side, but on the 6-trillion-mutexes side. > See? I didn't mention DragonFly even once! Ooops, I didn't mention > DFly twice. oops! Well, I didn't mention it more then twice anyway. Makes me wonder if some of the solutions proposed by DragonFly could be ported to FreeBSD, but I doubt it will be done, since it's more or less admitting that the current solution is wrong. Yes, I mentioned DragonFly (how dare he!). Feel free to flame, I've become extremely efficient at adding people to /etc/postfix/access :-P Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org PGP Key: 0xDC8514F1 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 23:11:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 099DF16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (zoot.blarg.net [206.124.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5E543D45 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:11:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23BAC33CC0 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:11:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i087C3LP070013 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:12:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i087C3il070012 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:12:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:12:03 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108071203.GA69853@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <6.0.0.22.2.20040107213502.03c17340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tKW2IUtsqtDRztdT" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040107213502.03c17340@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:11:57 -0000 --tKW2IUtsqtDRztdT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 0, Brett Glass wrote: :At 05:10 PM 1/6/2004, Allan Bowhill wrote: : :>No organization (or nation) with plenty to lose will base it's practices :>on institutionalized trust.=20 : :Nonsense. America is (or was, at any rate) based on institutionalized :trust. Hence, "innocent until proven guilty." This is going away :under Bush and his gang, though. We have lived in more trusting times, for sure. But our practices always seem to betray our ideals. Like it or not, that's civilization. Duality, Hypocracy, Betrayal and Loathing. Yes, Bush and his risk-takers have put this country through three years of Unforgettable Republican Hell. Maybe it will end soon. Maybe not.=20 Things will brighten up eventually. --=20 Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net 186,282 miles per second: It isn't just a good idea, it's the law! When the government bureau's remedies don't match your problem, you modify the problem, not the remedy. --tKW2IUtsqtDRztdT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//QLBBC/kSIeFE54RAoy5AJ4hZgGnp5YjiWYgH47kRNgnLn23qACeJtwg prRL7UstaYl/Me3XANd6neI= =kzvp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tKW2IUtsqtDRztdT-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 23:17:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 740E116A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-67-119-53-122.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.119.53.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B03943D5F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:17:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1EFC166E61; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:17:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:17:31 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Mark Murray , Paul Robinson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108071730.GA53328@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:17:49 -0000 --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 09:08:38PM +0100, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > The ports freeze seems to last too long with recent releses. Or > maybe it's just I've gotten more involved, but out of the last four > months (2003/09/07-today), ports tree has been completely open > for whopping 28 days. That might be technically true, but it's misleading and doesn't support the point you're trying to make. During this period the ports collection has only been frozen for a couple of weeks, and the majority of commit activities were not restricted for the rest of the period in question. > Porter's handbook, and FDP Primer, while valuable (esp. the former) > leave many questions unanswered. (I'm not going to further this > rant, but will gladly provide feedback to anyone who asks.) I would have thought the procedure to rectify this would be obvious: if you find that something is inadequately documented, or unclearly documented, then you need to make specific suggestions on what should be done to improve the documentation. We *need* this kind of feedback to figure out how to make the docs better from the point of view of the target audience. Kris --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//QQKWry0BWjoQKURAiE0AKCkVjPwB+aZ2AiWuPx+vTFCjUfHXACg2rT3 jCZuXiHkxIWgPfMkOqgrLPo= =iDcD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 23:34:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E24916A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:34:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c211-30-75-229.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.75.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 193AE43D46; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:33:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1])i087Xe7B033676; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:33:40 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i087Xenp033675; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:33:40 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:33:40 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108073340.GI25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:34:06 -0000 On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 09:08:38PM +0100, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > The ports freeze seems to last too long with recent releses. Or > maybe it's just I've gotten more involved, but out of the last four > months (2003/09/07-today), ports tree has been completely open > for whopping 28 days. I agree the ports tree has not been completely open for as long as it should be recently. This is due to unforeseen problems that resulted in significant delays for both 4.9-RELEASE and 5.2-RELEASE. It's difficult to see how this could have been handled any better. Hopefully there will be fewer problems with future releases. Non-committers can help here by testing -STABLE and -BETA snapshots more extensively so that more problems are ironed out before the ports tags are laid down. (An alternative might be to delay the ports tagging until later in the release cycle, but I suspect that is just as likely to cause problems by having last minute ports breakages cause delays). > Limitations of CVS don't exactly help either. The fact that you need > direct access to the repository to be able to copy a tree with > history (repocopy) as opposed to this operation being part of the > interface[1], which means being lucky enough to find a committer, > and get them commit the stuff within the blink of an eye ports is > open, further constrains people's ability to work on FreeBSD with > some satisfaction. I'm not sure what is meant by this paragraph. CVS doesn't support renaming files or directories - which can be a nuisance. As used within the Project, "repocopy" means manually copying parts of the repository to simulate file/directory duplication or renaming. This ability is restricted to a very small subset of committers - normal committers have to request repocopies as do non-committers. OTOH, replicating the complete FreeBSD CVS repository is trivial via either CVSup or CTM and both procedures are documented in the handbook. Peter From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 23:53:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB9816A4D0; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11DAD43D2F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:53:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i087rgtV068200; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:53:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i087rdFj068197; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:53:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:53:39 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200401080753.i087rdFj068197@apollo.backplane.com> To: Miguel Mendez References: <200401062000.i06K0hSI012184@dyson.jdyson.com> <200401072317.i07NHaM9065411@apollo.backplane.com> <3FFD01CE.5070301@energyhq.es.eu.org> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Munden Randall J cc: jsd@jdyson.com Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:53:47 -0000 :> See? I didn't mention DragonFly even once! Ooops, I didn't mention :> DFly twice. oops! Well, I didn't mention it more then twice anyway. : :Makes me wonder if some of the solutions proposed by DragonFly could be :ported to FreeBSD, but I doubt it will be done, since it's more or less :admitting that the current solution is wrong. : :Yes, I mentioned DragonFly (how dare he!). Feel free to flame, I've :become extremely efficient at adding people to /etc/postfix/access :-P : :Cheers, :-- : Miguel Mendez I think the correct approach to thinking about these abstractions would be to look at the code design implifications rather then just looking at performance, and then decide whether FreeBSD would benefit from the type of API simplification that these algorithms make possible. The best example of this that I have, and probably the *easiest* subsystem to port to FreeBSD (John could probably do it in a day), which I think would even wind up being exremely useful in a number of existing subsystems in FreeBSD (such as the slab allocator), would be DFly's IPI messaging code. I use the IPI messaging abstraction sort of like a 'remote procedure call' interface... a way to execute a procedure on some other cpu rather then the current cpu. This abstraction allows me to execute operations on data structures which are 'owned' by another cpu on the target cpu itself, which means that instead of getting a mutex, operating on the data structure, and releasing the mutex, I simply send an asynch (don't wait for it to complete on the source cpu) IPI message to the target cpu. By running the particular function, such as a scheduling request, in the target cpu's context, you suddenly find yourself in a situation where *NONE* of the related scheduler functions, and there are over a dozen of them, need to mess with mutexes. Not one. All they need to do to protect their turf is enter a critical section for a short period of time. The algorithm simplification is significant... you don't have to worry about crossing a thread boundary, you can remain in the critical section through the actual switch code which removes a huge number of special cases from the switch code. You don't have to worry about mutexes blocking, you don't have to worry about futzing the owner of any mutexes, you don't have to worry about the BGL, you don't have to worry about stale caches between cpus, the code works equally well in a UP environment as it does in an SMP environment... cache pollution is minimized... the list goes on an on. So looking at these abstractions just from a performance standpoint misses some of the biggest reasons for why you might want to use them. Algorithmic simplification and maintainability are very important. Performance is important but not relevant if the resulting optimization cannot be maintained. In anycase, I use IPIs to do all sorts of things. Not all have worked out... my token passing code, which I tried to use as a replacement for lockmgr interlocks, is pretty aweful and I consider it a conceptual failure. But our scheduler, slab allocator, and messaging code, and a number of other mechanisms, benefit from huge simplifications through their use of IPI messaging. Imagine... the messaging code is able to implement its entire API, including queueing and dequeueing messages on ports, without using a single mutex and (for all intents and purposes) without lock-related blocking. The code is utterly simple yet works between cpus, between mainline code and interrupts with preemption capabilities, and vise-versa. There are virtually no special cases. Same with the slab code, except when it needs to allocate a new zone from kernel_map, and same with the scheduler. -Matt Matthew Dillon From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 02:06:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8840016A4D7 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:06:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F7243D48 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:06:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 6E99C530A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:06:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 6A9735308; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:06:08 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 193C933C9A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:06:08 +0100 (CET) To: xaphod@freebsd.co.uk References: From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:06:08 +0100 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? (View from the trenches) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:06:20 -0000 xaphod@freebsd.co.uk writes: > A lot of my current fears stem from the current state of 5. I run 5.1 > on my desktop, laptop and servers. I know 5 is not rated for server > use, but I evaluate each RELEASE on a case by case basis. In testing > 5.0 I discovered it has issues, so I didn't use it. Whereas 5.1 was > perfectly stable. So I started using it. Looking at 5.2, without > testing it on any of my boxes as yet, my perception is that it's a bit > flaky. On the contrary, 5.2 is (in my experience) far more stable than 5.1, and a lot of work has gone into ACPI support and interrupt routing to make 5.2 run better on laptops and high-end servers. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 02:10:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B08316A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB6443D55; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:09:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id C1D93530A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:09:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id C04495308; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:09:49 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 50DDB33C9A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:09:49 +0100 (CET) To: Mark Murray References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:09:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> (Roman Neuhauser's message of "Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:08:38 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:10:09 -0000 Roman Neuhauser writes: > The ports freeze seems to last too long with recent releses. Or > maybe it's just I've gotten more involved, but out of the last four > months (2003/09/07-today), ports tree has been completely open > for whopping 28 days. I strongly suspect that this could be at least partially alleviated by giving portmgr more package-building hardware to play with. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 02:27:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23EA16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-67-119-53-122.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.119.53.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D6E43D4C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:27:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 37B9766E67; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:27:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:27:30 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Message-ID: <20040108102730.GA55397@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="u3/rZRmxL6MmkK24" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:27:32 -0000 --u3/rZRmxL6MmkK24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 11:09:49AM +0100, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > Roman Neuhauser writes: > > The ports freeze seems to last too long with recent releses. Or > > maybe it's just I've gotten more involved, but out of the last four > > months (2003/09/07-today), ports tree has been completely open > > for whopping 28 days. >=20 > I strongly suspect that this could be at least partially alleviated by > giving portmgr more package-building hardware to play with. It's certainly true that we're lacking in build hardware for some non-i386 platforms (particularly sparc64), and this made it pretty tricky to build packages for 5.2 on those architectures (a full sparc64 build takes at least a month). I've heard some rumours of donated equipment waiting to be installed, but I don't know what the status of that is. Likewise, a 5.2 i386 build takes about a week, which means that the freeze *cannot* be shorter than this, even if everything goes perfectly (which, in practise, never happens). This time around, the freeze started on 23 Nov and was lifted on 3 Dec. That's 10 days, which is about as good as you could hope for. If we could build packages in - say - a day, we'd be able to cut the freeze time down further, although I expect the duration would become limited by the speed at which problems can be corrected. Every now and then we get offers of access to a machine here or a machine there to help with building packages. The main problem with donating machine resources is that there's limited space in the freebsd.org equipment racks, and the package build system currently needs LAN-equivalent connectivity between the machines. To be useful we'd either need a full cluster of faster machines located somewhere, or to find time to rewrite the build scripts to work efficiently with remote build resources. Kris --u3/rZRmxL6MmkK24 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//TCRWry0BWjoQKURArzwAKCnIUZSbEPPntlK0rUPkcR/FjBTiACfTVlj rIJvecSvYBWt8R8TmViPgFw= =PkRG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --u3/rZRmxL6MmkK24-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 03:18:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8CE16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 03:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6D143D66 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 03:18:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 40215146F8; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 05:18:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 05:18:36 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Linimon X-X-Sender: linimon@pancho To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: xaphod@freebsd.co.uk Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? (View from the trenches) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:18:41 -0000 > So it's not surprising the standard response from committer is "submit > a patch". This is nothing more than the FreeBSD equivalent of a tetchy > "If you're so clever, do it yourself". I'm sorry that you feel that way. What you see as "do it yourself" I see as "please make a concrete suggestion". There are innumerable "someone ought to do something" suggestions and there are simply not enough committer-hours to pursue them all. In fact, there are not enough committer-hours to pursue all the concrete suggestions and/or patches, either. I'll have to admit that I am as frustrated as you are with this thread. I have gotten some good suggestions in private email which I intend to pursue. What are your own suggestions? > When -core blow cold on advocacy suggestions from users who feel > that's the only way they can contribute. Can you please point to an example of this? > When a knowledgeable someone with no time on their hands tries to > pass on some suggestions to a committer and gets shot down in flames. Can you please point to an example of this? mcl, very frustrated From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 03:32:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B59516A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 03:32:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0787543D3F for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 03:32:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id A67FD146F8; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 05:32:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 05:32:20 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Linimon X-X-Sender: linimon@pancho To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: kris@obsecurity.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:32:21 -0000 kris wrote: > [for a larger ports cluster] to be useful we'd either need a full > cluster of faster machines located somewhere, or to find time to > rewrite the build scripts to work efficiently with remote build > resources. While this particularly cool idea has occurred to me as well, the toughest problem might be ensuring that the build environments on the distributed machines are exactly in sync. mcl From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 03:49:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF5116A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 03:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from shaft.techsupport.co.uk (shaft.techsupport.co.uk [212.250.77.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 265B743D31; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 03:49:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.103.67.204] helo=shrike.submonkey.net ident=mailnull) by shaft.techsupport.co.uk with esmtp (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1AeYfV-000FJ7-Pz; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:49:42 +0000 Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1AeYfS-000I2G-Cr; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:49:38 +0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:49:38 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Ryan Sommers Message-ID: <20040108114938.GP8322@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Ryan Sommers , Nick Rogness , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ncX6roZrNNHXnAbh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Nick Rogness cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:49:51 -0000 --ncX6roZrNNHXnAbh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 09:45:25PM -0600, Ryan Sommers wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 20:29, Nick Rogness wrote: > > 1) Allow for paid development for a specific bug/feature > >=20 > > - Setup some program that allows users like myself to pay for a=20 > > developers time to fix a specific bug. The company I work for=20 > > would easily pay serious dollars to fix our SMP problems with 4.X. > > Unfortunetly, getting someone's attention that has a great=20 > > understanding of the OS is hard to find without rude remarks and=20 > > what-not. > >=20 > > You could even extend it as far as saying we will promote this PR > > to the top of the list of tasks if you pay us XX dollars. Or=20 > > maybe, the more you pay the higher you go. > >=20 > > This would reassure the user base that things CAN get done if=20 > > needed and also let the developer/bug fixer feel like they can=20 > > make money and have some fun. It will also bring in money for the=20 > > project as part of that money could go back into the Project. > >=20 > > You could easily setup a "pool" mailling list (like -requests)=20 > > which someone like myself would email a request with the problem=20 > > description (or PR). If a developer is interested in tackling the=20 > > problem for money, we could privately negotiate a price. > >=20 > > The same can be done for driver development and others. Make it a=20 > > "Donation for a specific request". I don't want to give money to > > some Foundation where money can be thrown around in the wrong=20 > > areas. I want to pay the developer personally for their efforts. =20 > > ( I feel the same should be done with our taxes as well ;-)=20 > >=20 >=20 > I really don't like the idea of making this a "policy," or even some > official part of the project. I think this might discourage some from > contributing in hopes to be paid for it. I think a better solution for > companies looking for this would be to post to the jobs@ mailing list > noting that it is a temp job. >=20 > I don't think giving priority to paying entities is a path the project > should tread down. If someone needs FreeBSD developer work they should > look for someone to hire. Something like this might also jeopardize the > project's "not for profit" status. I think the jobs@ mailing list would > be a better start. Absolutely. At least in Britain, the Project could then be seen as working as an agent which has the potential to cause problems that we don't need and probably would find very hard to deal with. Ceri --=20 --ncX6roZrNNHXnAbh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//UPSocfcwTS3JF8RAswAAKDGUQ6/qCmqZzWd+ZHwp/mw9daIzgCfeAv7 dtakaCIMytt6U2kgk1R8arw= =DM3q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ncX6roZrNNHXnAbh-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 04:57:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F1B16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilith.bellavista.cz (bellavista.worldonline.cz [212.90.245.154]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8C143D58; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:57:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neuhauser@bellavista.cz) Received: from freepuppy.bellavista.cz (freepuppy.bellavista.cz [10.0.0.10]) by lilith.bellavista.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE135B; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:57:38 +0100 (CET) Received: by freepuppy.bellavista.cz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C30912FDA12; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:57:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:57:38 +0100 From: Roman Neuhauser To: Peter Jeremy Message-ID: <20040108125738.GQ54743@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20040108073340.GI25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108073340.GI25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 12:57:43 -0000 # peterjeremy@optushome.com.au / 2004-01-08 18:33:40 +1100: > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 09:08:38PM +0100, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > > Limitations of CVS don't exactly help either. The fact that you need > > direct access to the repository to be able to copy a tree with > > history (repocopy) as opposed to this operation being part of the > > interface[1], which means being lucky enough to find a committer, > > and get them commit the stuff within the blink of an eye ports is > > open, further constrains people's ability to work on FreeBSD with > > some satisfaction. > > I'm not sure what is meant by this paragraph. CVS doesn't support > renaming files or directories - which can be a nuisance. As used > within the Project, "repocopy" means manually copying parts of the > repository to simulate file/directory duplication or renaming. This > ability is restricted to a very small subset of committers - normal > committers have to request repocopies as do non-committers. I somewhat lumped two things together there: * general port updates from lot of people going through a handful of committers, which on one hand helps QA by adding eye balls, but OTOH slows the process down. * repocopies go through a fraction of the abovementioned handful Now, I'm by no means advocating everybody should get ssh login on [dnp]cvs.freebsd.org; I just can't wait for the day when FreeBSD uses a SCM that handles tags and branches efficiently (so that people can freely create branches of areas they hack), that has permissions model with file- or directory-level granularity (so that people can be granted commit e. g. in /ports/x11-wm/openbox and nowhere else), etc. -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 07:51:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187F916A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:51:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DE343D58; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:51:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B6FF3D28; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:51:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:51:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3FFD3623.28381.FCEE067B@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3FFA7EB7.32065.F25158B9@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Chello blocking FreshPorts service X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:51:17 -0000 On 6 Jan 2004 at 9:24, Dan Langille wrote: > For some months Chello has denied smtp service from the FreshPorts > mail server. All queries to Chello regarding this matter have gone > unanswered. > > $ telnet smtpgate.chello.at 25 > Trying 213.46.255.2... > Connected to smtpgate.chello.at. > Escape character is '^]'. > 421 viefep12-int.chello.at connection refused from [66.154.97.250] > Connection closed by foreign host. > > This happens for all Chello domains I have tried. This means that > Chello users are unable to use the FreshPorts notification service. > For what it's worth, this also affect the FreeBSD Diary announcement > mailing list. > > If anyone has contacts at Chello, please ask them to look into this. > All attempts to get this resolved have been blocked. > > I've heard many stories about Chello standards of service. This > situation validates everything I've heard. I have had some information from a third party. It appears that Chello are using xbl.selwerd.cx as a RBL. My research indicates that xbl.selwerd.cx should not be used as an RBL: http://mla.libertine.org/tmda-users/2002-11/msg00049.html Anyone here using xbl.selwerd.cx? -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:30:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCD0A16A4D0; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (mailgate.nlsystems.com [80.177.232.242]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 686AB43D4C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:30:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) i08HTY1i037741; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:29:34 GMT (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) From: Doug Rabson To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:29:34 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on herring.nlsystems.com cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Roman Neuhauser cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:30:02 -0000 On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 20:19, Robert Watson wrote: > On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > > > [1] has core@ considered subversion (devel/subversion)? > > Everyone has their eyes wide open looking for a revision control > alternative, but last time it was discussed in detail (a few months ago?) > it seemed there still wasn't a viable alternative. On the src tree side, > FreeBSD committers are making extensive use of a Perforce repository > (which supports lightweight branching, etc, etc), but there's a strong > desire to maintain the base system on a purely open source revision > control system, and migrating your data is no lightweight proposition. > Likewise, you really want to trust your data only to tried and true > solutions, I think -- we want to build an OS, not a version control > system, if at all possible :-). Subversion seems to be the current > "favorite" to keep an eye on, but the public release seemed not to have > realized the promise of the design (i.e., no three-way merges, etc). You > can peruse the FreeBSD Perforce repository via the web using > http://perforce.FreeBSD.org/ -- it contains a lot of personal and small > project sandboxes that might be of interest. For example, we do all the > primary TrustedBSD development in Perforce before merging it to the main > CVS repository. I've been re-evaluating the current subversion over the last couple of weeks and its holding up pretty well so far. It still misses the repeated merge thing that p4 does so well but in practice, merging does seem to be a lot easier than with CVS due to the repository-wide revision numbering system - that makes it easy to remember when your last merge happened so that you don't merge a change twice. The three main showstoppers for moving FreeBSD to subversion would be: 1. A replacement for cvsup. Probably quite doable using svnadmin dump and load. 2. Support for $FreeBSD$ - user-specified keywords are not supported and won't be until after svn-1.0 by the looks of things. 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test material for the migration scripts. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:32:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 318F516A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC55143D6A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:31:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2004010817315301100l94hqe>; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:31:53 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i08HYfYS012654; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:34:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i08HYaSI012653; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:34:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: "Simon L. Nielsen" References: <6.0.1.1.1.20040106204233.04436d28@imap.sfu.ca> <20040107001258.GA742@arthur.nitro.dk> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 09:34:36 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20040107001258.GA742@arthur.nitro.dk> (Simon L. Nielsen's message of "Wed, 7 Jan 2004 01:13:00 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:32:29 -0000 "Simon L. Nielsen" writes: > Indeed, but it's not as easy as it sounds (well, I don't know if it > sounds easy...). I know that the committer's job did NOT sound easy when I considered it a couple of years ago. And I'm just referring to the mechanics of it and not all the really more important and time-consuming tasks of dealing with PR authors. I don't remember if any of it seemed unnecessary, but I hope the processes are reviewed occasionally. In the case of the FDP, I think there's an extra problem: the source language of the documentation is too complex for a project without paid grunt workers. A significant contributor has the choice of learning a huge language (including the "entities" and informal standards) or being "lazy" and allowing others to fix up his edits. I'm sure that many people want to be lazy but don't want to be seen to be lazy, so just stay away from it all. I think it would be better to keep the documentation in a very bare and simplified version of docbook or maybe even a wiki-like language. (I prefer using the plain-text version, anyway, as it is easier to search.) Having "pretty" versions of the docs is not worth the cost of their maintenance, IMO, especially when it has the side effect of significantly discouraging participation in the FDP. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:34:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0285D16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from skywalker.rogness.net (skywalker.rogness.net [64.251.173.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD7F43D5C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:34:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nick@rogness.net) Received: from skywalker.rogness.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by skywalker.rogness.net (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id i08HZlPb016416; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:35:47 -0700 (envelope-from nick@rogness.net) Received: from localhost (nick@localhost)i08HZlcq016412; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:35:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: skywalker.rogness.net: nick owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:35:47 -0700 (MST) From: Nick Rogness To: Ryan Sommers In-Reply-To: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:34:13 -0000 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Ryan Sommers wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 20:29, Nick Rogness wrote: > > 1) Allow for paid development for a specific bug/feature > > > > - Setup some program that allows users like myself to pay for a > > developers time to fix a specific bug. The company I work for > > would easily pay serious dollars to fix our SMP problems with 4.X. > > Unfortunetly, getting someone's attention that has a great > > understanding of the OS is hard to find without rude remarks and > > what-not. > > > > You could even extend it as far as saying we will promote this PR > > to the top of the list of tasks if you pay us XX dollars. Or > > maybe, the more you pay the higher you go. > > > > This would reassure the user base that things CAN get done if > > needed and also let the developer/bug fixer feel like they can > > make money and have some fun. It will also bring in money for the > > project as part of that money could go back into the Project. > > > > You could easily setup a "pool" mailling list (like -requests) > > which someone like myself would email a request with the problem > > description (or PR). If a developer is interested in tackling the > > problem for money, we could privately negotiate a price. > > > > The same can be done for driver development and others. Make it a > > "Donation for a specific request". I don't want to give money to > > some Foundation where money can be thrown around in the wrong > > areas. I want to pay the developer personally for their efforts. > > ( I feel the same should be done with our taxes as well ;-) > > > > I really don't like the idea of making this a "policy," or even some > official part of the project. I think this might discourage some from > contributing in hopes to be paid for it. I think a better solution for > companies looking for this would be to post to the jobs@ mailing list > noting that it is a temp job. The point was not to take away from contributing developers only to pay someone who is familiar with the problem. I don't want to have to hire someone that doesn't have a clue on the problem and takes 6 months to even become familiar with a specific PR. I don't see anything wrong with paying someone who is working on my PR. Even it is a small amount. I'm not a company and can't afford to hire a programmer to develop a driver for me personally. However, if someone is working on a driver already and is time contstrained, I would pay some money to help relieve some of the time stress involved. I gave suggestions for keeping developers happy and efficient. Money is the only REAL answer. Perhaps this could be done through a company that contracts just FreeBSD developers. I know of no such company. I guess I will have to be satisfied with -jobs for now. > > I don't think giving priority to paying entities is a path the project > should tread down. If someone needs FreeBSD developer work they should > look for someone to hire. Something like this might also jeopardize the > project's "not for profit" status. I think the jobs@ mailing list would > be a better start. (I'm going to be looking for a full time job in about > 11 months and if I got one where I got to code/administer BSD I'd feel I > was in Heaven.) :-) Agreed. -- Nick Rogness - How many people here have telekenetic powers? Raise my hand. -Emo Philips From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:39:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF92F16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-66-73-163-58.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net (adsl-66-73-163-58.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net [66.73.163.58]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 75ABE43D49 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:39:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mschubring14945ercancrab@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040119680.27432.qmail@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:45:06 -0800 From: "Ann Stoddard" To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Re: Fresh WhoIs data (emails, phones, etc.) on sale! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:39:54 -0000 We are offering fresh WhoIs data on 214,000 business websites. Along with the WhoIs data comes an add-on of email addresses and phone numbers extracted directly from the contact pages of the mentioned 214,000 businesses. The WhoIs data includes all the fields provided at registration: owner/registrar, administrative, technical contacts (emails, phones, addresses); domain expiry date, creation date, time of last update; domain servers. We are also able to download the WhoIs data for any other selection of domains as well. The data was collected in the period of December 17-23, 2003 and will be updated every 3 months. If you are interested, please write me to [1]sales@outhosted.com (PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE). Please specify whether you are interested in the complete WhoIs database or its particular fields and whether you need the additional email addresses and phone numbers extracted from the contact pages. Thank you for your attention! Sincerely, Ann Stoddard ***************************************************************** Private, Confidential and Privileged. This email and any files and attachments transmitted with it are confidential and/or privileged. They are intended solely for the use of the intended recipient. The content of this email and any file or attachment transmitted with it may have been changed or altered without the consent of the author. If you are not the intended recipient, please note that any review, dissemination, disclosure, alteration, printing, circulation or transmission of this email and/or any file or attachment transmitted with it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. ***************************************************************** References 1. mailto:sales@outhosted.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:40:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2D616A4D8; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:40:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1585E43D62; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:40:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 86795530C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:40:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 919265308; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:40:42 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 26A5633C9A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:40:42 +0100 (CET) To: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) References: <6.0.1.1.1.20040106204233.04436d28@imap.sfu.ca> <20040107001258.GA742@arthur.nitro.dk> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:40:42 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Gary W. Swearingen's message of "Thu, 08 Jan 2004 09:34:36 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org cc: "Simon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:40:54 -0000 underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > In the case of the FDP, I think there's an extra problem: the source > language of the documentation is too complex for a project without > paid grunt workers. Anyone who is reasonably familiar with HTML can learn enough DocBook to contribute to the FDP in a matter of minutes. There is also excellent documentation on DocBook online - see for instance: http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/documentation/reference/ DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:58:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86ABC16A4D0; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CD843D64; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:58:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i08HwMHV076908; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:58:23 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i08HwH5P076905; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:58:17 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:58:17 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040108194843.L32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: "Simon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:58:34 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Dag-Erling [iso-8859-1] Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > > In the case of the FDP, I think there's an extra problem: the source > > language of the documentation is too complex for a project without > > paid grunt workers. > > Anyone who is reasonably familiar with HTML can learn enough DocBook > to contribute to the FDP in a matter of minutes. There is also > excellent documentation on DocBook online - see for instance: > > http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/documentation/reference/ > it should be possible to tweak the docbook oputput xslt filter in openoffice to output something that is 90%+ ready for fdp, assuming you just want first time editing and not roundtripping (fdp is still sgml, makes massive use of entities, etc). > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:59:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0AEE16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:59:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE3143D5C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:59:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i08HxSET084983; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:59:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:59:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040108.105920.09775084.imp@bsdimp.com> To: ryans@gamersimpact.com From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: nick@rogness.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:59:31 -0000 In message: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> Ryan Sommers writes: : I really don't like the idea of making this a "policy," or even some : official part of the project. It has been going on for years. I've been paid to fix FreeBSD bugs by my employer and as an independent contractor for years now. These fixes get into the FreeBSD system on their merrits, but likely wouldn't have happened if someone wasn't willing to foot the bill. : Something like this might also jeopardize the : project's "not for profit" status. The project is not a legally incorporated entity at this time, and never has been in the past. There is a FreeBSD Foundation, but that's a completely independent organization. Prior to that there was FreeBSD, Inc, which Joran ran as a clearing house for help to those working on the project, but FreeBSD, Inc never was the project. Warner From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 12:30:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3B916A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:30:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ninjabucket.com (ninjabucket.com [208.60.152.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D3E43D6B for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:30:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aaron@snaphat.com) Received: from snaphat.com (pcp04337577pcs.elkton01.md.comcast.net [68.33.78.247]) by mail.ninjabucket.com (8.12.8/8.11.6) with SMTP id i08KUdJB099883; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:30:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from aaron@snaphat.com) Received: from 68.33.78.247 (SquirrelMail authenticated user aaron) by snaphat.com with HTTP; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:30:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <33672.68.33.78.247.1073593845.squirrel@snaphat.com> In-Reply-To: <3FFC0066.4090704@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net><20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee><20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFB56CE.3030109@iconoplex.co.uk><20040107025601.GC65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFC0066.4090704@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:30:45 -0500 (EST) From: "Aaron Myles Landwehr" To: "Paul Robinson" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: aaron@snaphat.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 20:30:50 -0000 > So, all Afghans are terrorists then? Irrelevant Question. Just as the original about your father being born in the usa. === trolling. >>We are not new to this, as you seem to believe. Terrorism, Piracy and >>Organized Crime are all intertwined. >> > Hahahaha. Now I know you're trolling. His statement does not amount to trolling. -aaron myles landwehr From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 14:25:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D636016A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E389643D2F for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:25:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Aeiam-000IlN-CN; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:25:28 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFDD8D5.5090806@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:25:25 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <20040106202408.GC63867@kosmos.my.net> <20040106233751.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040107001001.GA65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFB56CE.3030109@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107025601.GC65133@kosmos.my.net> <3FFC0066.4090704@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3FFC0066.4090704@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Allan Bowhill cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Personal patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:25:32 -0000 I, before having consumed sufficient coffee, and whilst being distracted by a plumber, wrote: > At that stage, the Catholic Unionists in the North were being attacked > on a regular basis by the Loyalists. A school-boy error on my part. As somebody has just mailed me and gently reminded me, Unionists = residents of Northern Ireland who wish to see the region remain part of the United Kingdom. This is therefore the same as loyalist. The correct term I was looking for to describe those individuals seeking Northern Ireland to become part of the Repiblic of Ireland, is "Nationalist". However, in general and as a rule of thumb, Catholics in the region tend to be Nationalists, and the Protestant community tend to be Unionist. I really am sorry for the confusion. Some of you who weren't familiar with the situation would have got most confused if you ever tried to have a discussion on the subject in the future. In fact reading it back, *I* got very confused right now. I hope that clears it up. Oh, and to those of you who wrote to me, thanks for not being more abusive. :-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 17:09:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A953B16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BD943D2F for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:09:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2004010901093101500bal59e>; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:09:31 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i0917oYS019048; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:07:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i0917iJv019047; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:07:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) References: <6.0.1.1.1.20040106204233.04436d28@imap.sfu.ca> <20040107001258.GA742@arthur.nitro.dk> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:07:44 -0800 In-Reply-To: ( =?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav's_message_of?= "Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:40:42 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 01:09:34 -0000 des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav) writes: > Anyone who is reasonably familiar with HTML can learn enough DocBook > to contribute to the FDP in a matter of minutes. It's not even that hard, as they may submit plain text or even just a report of the problem. But unless you're contributing some important missing content, whatever you contribute will be met with requests to do better, and you'll feel embarassed about leaving others to do your grunt work. Or you'll tire of getting someone to do it as you wanted it, or at all. Even if you know or learn DocBook and the FDP primer, you'll be grieved by silly things like deleting spaces where you shouldn't have, or using the "xyz" manpage entity instead of the "xyz" command entity. The system obviously works; I'm just saying what seems undeniable: that a simpler source language would draw more contributions, and what is just my opinion: that a simpler wiki-like language with only a handful of lanugage elements would make for better documentation because it would have better content, at the small cost of being a little uglier and harder for someone to sell in book form. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 18:13:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DB616A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:13:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DFB343D48; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:13:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <20040109021354012006jd0ge>; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 02:13:54 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i092CHYS019994; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:12:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i092CBnT019993; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:12:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> <20040108.105920.09775084.imp@bsdimp.com> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:12:11 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20040108.105920.09775084.imp@bsdimp.com> (M. Warner Losh's message of "Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:59:20 -0700 (MST)") Message-ID: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 02:13:57 -0000 "M. Warner Losh" writes: > Ryan Sommers writes: > : Something like this might also jeopardize the > : project's "not for profit" status. > > The project is not a legally incorporated entity at this time, and > never has been in the past. And yet the "Legal" page carries a claim of copyright for "The FreeBSD Project" and the "Copyright" page has that plus a similar claim for "FreeBSD, Inc." (For 2004, even.) I've not seen a US statute about false copyright claims, but I think it would be less risky to say "all intellectual property is owned by its owners", in the manner of some trademark statements. The "Legal" page could tell about using CVS to determine who owns what so they can be tracked down and asked if the copyright page is correct about what license they've got it under. :) Whether the project is "for profit" depends upon the definition, if the project is claiming copyright ownership, because gains of intellectual property is considered (by US copyright law, at least) to be a financial gain. But lots of organizations, formal and informal, have financial gains without problems with being considered "for profit", so if someone sees "for profit" problems, they should be specific about what the problems might be. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 18:44:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE2D16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:44:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c211-30-75-229.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.75.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F2343D1F for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:44:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1])i092ia7B051450; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:44:36 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i092iaLf051449; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:44:36 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:44:36 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20040109024436.GN25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105134236.03b51cc0@localhost> <20040107024735.GW2838@silverwraith.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040107214422.03c16cd8@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040107214422.03c16cd8@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 02:44:51 -0000 On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 09:45:06PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >At 07:47 PM 1/6/2004, Avleen Vig wrote: > >>Advocacy is NOT a race > >Yes, it is. Linux is where it is today because it grabbed more >buzz, sooner, than BSD. An alternative viewpoint is that BSD spent 2-3 years in limbo whilst the AT&T/BSDI suit ground thru the legal system. During this time, Linux managed to get a big headstart. The current SCO suit has the possibility to do the same to Linux except that: 1) SCO's claims are so outlandish that no-one takes them seriously 2) SCO has decided to include BSD in it's claims. Peter From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 20:39:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231FA16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1669143D48; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:39:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i094dFET091557; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:39:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:39:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> To: underway@comcast.net From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> <20040108.105920.09775084.imp@bsdimp.com> <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 04:39:21 -0000 In message: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: : "M. Warner Losh" writes: : : > Ryan Sommers writes: : > : Something like this might also jeopardize the : > : project's "not for profit" status. : > : > The project is not a legally incorporated entity at this time, and : > never has been in the past. : : And yet the "Legal" page carries a claim of copyright for "The FreeBSD : Project" It is a psudonymous work by The FreeBSD Project. : and the "Copyright" page has that plus a similar claim for : "FreeBSD, Inc." (For 2004, even.) That should be changed. : I've not seen a US statute about : false copyright claims, but I think it would be less risky to say "all : intellectual property is owned by its owners", in the manner of some : trademark statements. No, the above is perfectly legal under US and International Copyright law. : The "Legal" page could tell about using CVS to : determine who owns what so they can be tracked down and asked if the : copyright page is correct about what license they've got it under. :) That's likely overkill, but might not be a bad idea. : Whether the project is "for profit" depends upon the definition, if : the project is claiming copyright ownership, because gains of : intellectual property is considered (by US copyright law, at least) to : be a financial gain. But lots of organizations, formal and informal, : have financial gains without problems with being considered "for : profit", so if someone sees "for profit" problems, they should be : specific about what the problems might be. For profit or not is irrelvant, given that there's no legally incorporated entity for the project. Warner From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 23:28:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D05E16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B282C43D46; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:28:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <20040109072821012009oqp0e>; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:28:21 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i097QhYS024360; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:26:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i097QcKR024359; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:26:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> <20040108.105920.09775084.imp@bsdimp.com> <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:26:37 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> (M. Warner Losh's message of "Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:39:07 -0700 (MST)") Message-ID: <35u1357fbm.135@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:28:25 -0000 "M. Warner Losh" writes: > In message: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> > underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > : > : And yet the "Legal" page carries a claim of copyright for "The FreeBSD > : Project" > > It is a psudonymous work by The FreeBSD Project. Are you saying that "The FreeBSD Project" is a pseudonym for many of individuals, or what? And why does it matter with respect to whether an extra-legal entity may claim copyright ownership? > : I've not seen a US statute about > : false copyright claims, but I think it would be less risky to say "all > : intellectual property is owned by its owners", in the manner of some > : trademark statements. > > No, the above is perfectly legal under US and International Copyright > law. Well, I know that it's legal to omit one's own copyright claim, but for some organization to lay claim to copyrights owned by you or me seems very wrong. It's a violation of BSD-type licenses and a violation of the concept of attribution that is behind the licenses. A legal entity has made the false claim of copyright ownership, whether that's an informal organization or the person who wrote the claim with a pseudonym. I'm not sure how you or I have been damaged, but I supose that a lawyer could find a way. What is your theory of why it's legal? I'm really interested. Are you saying it's just another way of saying "copyrights are owned by individual members of the informal FreeBSD project"? That seems legal enough, I guess, but it's a quite different statement, IMO. And as it doesn't follow the form giving by US copyright law I wonder if it is sufficent legal notice in the USA, if you plan to sue infringers for the most money possible. > For profit or not is irrelvant, given that there's no legally > incorporated entity for the project. I'm fairly sure that members of informal organizations can be held liable for the acts of other members in the USA. For example, under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations ("RICO") Act. And even if all members could not be held liable, persons directly responsible for the wrongdoing could be. Example wrongdoings are not paying taxes on the profit or not reporting the profit. But I admit that this issue seems unlikely to cause problems as long as someone pays taxes on any obvious profits other than copyright licenses. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 03:40:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567AE16A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 03:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1947143D2D; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 03:40:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 3000) id 72D921184B; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:40:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:40:21 +0100 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: "M. Warner Losh" Message-ID: <20040109114019.GA688@arthur.nitro.dk> References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> <20040108.105920.09775084.imp@bsdimp.com> <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 11:40:24 -0000 --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2004.01.08 21:39:07 -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> > underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > > : and the "Copyright" page has that plus a similar claim for > : "FreeBSD, Inc." (For 2004, even.)=20 >=20 > That should be changed. To? I have noticed FreeBSD, Inc on the copyright page a few times, but I never really knew what to replace it with. --=20 Simon L. Nielsen FreeBSD Documentation Team --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//pMjh9pcDSc1mlERAix7AJ0YR52XA7T5kxQTUIYEf1MV4XiakwCgtHtn 8LWBaxJxQ6FJDZq0LTC0uwU= =aGto -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 05:03:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C87216A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:03:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ftp.translate.ru (ftp.translate.ru [195.131.4.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB9943D45; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:03:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from lev (81.211.110.86.adsl-spb.net.rol.ru [81.211.110.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by ftp.translate.ru (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09D38HK010600; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:03:13 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:03:26 +0300 From: Lev Serebryakov X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62r) Personal Organization: Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <853399522.20040109160326@serebryakov.spb.ru> To: Doug Rabson In-Reply-To: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> References: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re[2]: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Lev Serebryakov List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:03:23 -0000 Hello, Doug! Thursday, January 8, 2004, 8:29:34 PM, you wrote: DR> 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the DR> current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died DR> pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers DR> are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list DR> archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test DR> material for the migration scripts. Did you try my (pure-perl) vatinat ``RefineCVS''? http://lev.serebryakov.spb.ru/refinecvs/refinecvs-0.76.783.tar.gz But, please, read documentation carefully before reporting bugs -- many errors could be avoided with command-line options, sctipy is paranoid by default. Some parts of FreeBSD repository could not be converted, because contains revisions like 1.2.1 and other `I don't know what I should think about this' errors. If you have some good ideas -- let me know :) -- Lev Serebryakov From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 05:29:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65BCC16A4D0; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:29:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA9543D48; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:28:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i09DSvHV087733; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:28:57 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i09DSv8c087730; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:28:57 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:28:57 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Lev Serebryakov In-Reply-To: <853399522.20040109160326@serebryakov.spb.ru> Message-ID: <20040109152725.D32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Doug Rabson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re[2]: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:29:01 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Lev Serebryakov wrote: > Hello, Doug! > Thursday, January 8, 2004, 8:29:34 PM, you wrote: > > DR> 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the > DR> current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died > DR> pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers > DR> are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list > DR> archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test > DR> material for the migration scripts. > Did you try my (pure-perl) vatinat ``RefineCVS''? > > http://lev.serebryakov.spb.ru/refinecvs/refinecvs-0.76.783.tar.gz > > But, please, read documentation carefully before reporting bugs -- > many errors could be avoided with command-line options, sctipy is > paranoid by default. > > Some parts of FreeBSD repository could not be converted, because > contains revisions like 1.2.1 and other `I don't know what I should > think about this' errors. If you have some good ideas -- let me know > :) > Huh? Whats wrong with revision 1.2.1 ? This is perfectly normal cvs revision number, even if you have to use a command line option to get it. But it should not require any kind of special treatment. > -- > Lev Serebryakov > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 06:52:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFCF16A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:52:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31FA43D46; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:52:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09EqIET097772; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:52:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:52:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040109.075201.81090753.imp@bsdimp.com> To: underway@comcast.net From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <35u1357fbm.135@mail.comcast.net> References: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> <35u1357fbm.135@mail.comcast.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:52:22 -0000 In message: <35u1357fbm.135@mail.comcast.net> underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: : "M. Warner Losh" writes: : : > In message: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> : > underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: : > : : > : And yet the "Legal" page carries a claim of copyright for "The FreeBSD : > : Project" : > : > It is a psudonymous work by The FreeBSD Project. : : Are you saying that "The FreeBSD Project" is a pseudonym for many of : individuals, or what? And why does it matter with respect to whether : an extra-legal entity may claim copyright ownership? Yes. It is a collection of individuals. It is explicitly allowed for in copyright law. : > : I've not seen a US statute about : > : false copyright claims, but I think it would be less risky to say "all : > : intellectual property is owned by its owners", in the manner of some : > : trademark statements. : > : > No, the above is perfectly legal under US and International Copyright : > law. : : Well, I know that it's legal to omit one's own copyright claim, but : for some organization to lay claim to copyrights owned by you or me : seems very wrong. Whatever. I've consulted lawyers on this who assure me that it is legal. You've admitted to not knowing US Copyright law and are aguing emotion, which is why I didn't reply to the rest of your message. Warner From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 06:52:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861D216A4D0; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0FB343D53; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:52:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09EqsET097806; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:52:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:52:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040109.075237.45377906.imp@bsdimp.com> To: simon@FreeBSD.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20040109114019.GA688@arthur.nitro.dk> References: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> <20040109114019.GA688@arthur.nitro.dk> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:52:58 -0000 In message: <20040109114019.GA688@arthur.nitro.dk> "Simon L. Nielsen" writes: : On 2004.01.08 21:39:07 -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: : > In message: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> : > underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: : > : > : and the "Copyright" page has that plus a similar claim for : > : "FreeBSD, Inc." (For 2004, even.) : > : > That should be changed. : : To? I have noticed FreeBSD, Inc on the copyright page a few times, but : I never really knew what to replace it with. The FreeBSD Project. Warner From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 07:15:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1C916A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:15:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ftp.translate.ru (ftp.translate.ru [195.131.4.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1881243D3F; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:15:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from lev (81.211.110.86.adsl-spb.net.rol.ru [81.211.110.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by ftp.translate.ru (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09FFcHK011382; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:15:41 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:16:02 +0300 From: Lev Serebryakov X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62r) Personal Organization: FreeBSD Developers Team X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <19210315820.20040109181602@serebryakov.spb.ru> To: Narvi In-Reply-To: <20040109152725.D32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040109152725.D32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: Lev Serebryakov cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re[3]: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Lev Serebryakov List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:15:49 -0000 Hello, Narvi! Friday, January 9, 2004, 4:28:57 PM, you wrote: >> DR> 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the >> DR> current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died >> DR> pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers >> DR> are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list >> DR> archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test >> DR> material for the migration scripts. >> Did you try my (pure-perl) vatinat ``RefineCVS''? >> http://lev.serebryakov.spb.ru/refinecvs/refinecvs-0.76.783.tar.gz >> But, please, read documentation carefully before reporting bugs -- >> many errors could be avoided with command-line options, sctipy is >> paranoid by default. >> Some parts of FreeBSD repository could not be converted, because >> contains revisions like 1.2.1 and other `I don't know what I should >> think about this' errors. If you have some good ideas -- let me know >> :) N> Huh? Whats wrong with revision 1.2.1 ? This is perfectly normal cvs N> revision number, even if you have to use a command line option to get it. N> But it should not require any kind of special treatment. It is NOT perfectly normal cvs revision number. WHAT TYPE of revision number is it? Normal numbers are (first level of branching is showed only): x.y -- TRUNK x.y.0.(2n) -- MAGIC for branch (in SYMBOLS only) x.y.(2n).z -- Revision on branch x.1.(2n+1) -- Vendor branches (in SYMBOLS only) x.1.(2n+1).z -- Vendor imports Ok, ok, it should be some broken vendor branch. But what do you say about `1.1.2'? Or even simple `1' (look into sysintall's Attic). BTW, repo from FreeBSD 4.9 is parsed almost without such errors (sysinstall, pppd + kernel part of ppp, zoneinfo). Some problems are with double symbols (one symbolic name marks two revisions: MAGIC one and simple one), and with symbols, which marks unexistent revisions (many, many such symbols over all repository). But my computer doesn't have enough memory to finish conversion process. -- Lev Serebryakov From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 08:26:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD66016A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:26:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxsf06.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf06.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21EEC43D3F for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:26:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bobbymartin@charter.net) Received: from BOB (ip-wv-68-117-153-239.charterwv.net [68.117.153.239]) i09GKYOh059936 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:20:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bobbymartin@charter.net) Message-ID: <000601c3d6cc$81d72960$6600a8c0@BOB> From: "Bob Martin" To: Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:20:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: General Wireless Network Question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:26:48 -0000 Just completed a wireless setup. I am using a hi-gain antenna to see = my friend's wireless network. He is about 250 feet from my house. I have = an excellent signal strength (80%) and my link quality is 80%. My data = connection rate is showing 11Mbps. We are using 11Mbps hardware. When I = checked my bandwidth speed through his wireless network I am seeing a = 1Mbps in speed out of a possible of 2Mbps. He is seeing the normal 2Mbps = bandwidth speed with a 95% signal level on his laptop less than 30 feet = away in his living room. Is what am seeing normal or to be expected = with the 250 feet distance from my house to the access point at his = house. I expected less bandwidth speed but not half with the excellent = signal and quality level that I have with my hi-gain antenna. Is this = just the way wireless networking is or what? Is there anything I can do = to do better then the 1Mbps. Also, friend saw a drop in speed with a drop in signal as he walked = toward my house away for the access point at his house, which I expected = to happen, but when I intentionally dropped my signal and link levels to = a lower signal level I still got the same 1Mbps speed, which didn't make = a lot of sense to me. I did this experiment several times so I know it = was real. What gives with this strange result. Bob Martin (Every day is Saturday, except Sunday)=20 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 09:38:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A0C16A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 09:38:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.farley.org (farley.org [67.64.95.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B48C43D49; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 09:38:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sean-freebsd@farley.org) Received: from thor.farley.org (0hfn1bredusukhpe@thor.farley.org [IPv6:2002:4340:5fcd:1::5]) by mail.farley.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i09Hcrkq006059; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:38:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from sean-freebsd@farley.org) Received: from thor.farley.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thor.farley.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i09HcqWN001544; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:38:52 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from sean-freebsd@farley.org) Received: from localhost (sean@localhost)i09HcqJY001541; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:38:52 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from sean-freebsd@farley.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thor.farley.org: sean owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:38:52 -0600 (CST) From: Sean Farley X-X-Sender: sean@thor.farley.org To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> Message-ID: <20040109113432.R1511@thor.farley.org> References: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:38:58 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Doug Rabson wrote: > I've been re-evaluating the current subversion over the last couple of > weeks and its holding up pretty well so far. It still misses the > repeated merge thing that p4 does so well but in practice, merging > does seem to be a lot easier than with CVS due to the repository-wide > revision numbering system - that makes it easy to remember when your > last merge happened so that you don't merge a change twice. > > The three main showstoppers for moving FreeBSD to subversion would be: > > 1. A replacement for cvsup. Probably quite doable using svnadmin dump > and load. > 2. Support for $FreeBSD$ - user-specified keywords are not supported > and won't be until after svn-1.0 by the looks of things. > 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the > current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died > pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers are > planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list archives, > it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test material for > the migration scripts. I admit to having not tried it, but I wonder how well OpenCM (http://www.opencm.org/) would compare. I think it would have a smaller footprint than Subversion. Sean ----------------------- sean-freebsd@farley.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 10:21:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65F4816A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36E7743D4C; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:21:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i09IL2HV091406; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:21:03 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i09IL237091403; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:21:02 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:21:02 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Lev Serebryakov In-Reply-To: <19210315820.20040109181602@serebryakov.spb.ru> Message-ID: <20040109194720.C32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re[3]: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 18:21:06 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Lev Serebryakov wrote: > Hello, Narvi! > Friday, January 9, 2004, 4:28:57 PM, you wrote: > > >> DR> 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the > >> DR> current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died > >> DR> pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers > >> DR> are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list > >> DR> archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test > >> DR> material for the migration scripts. > >> Did you try my (pure-perl) vatinat ``RefineCVS''? > >> http://lev.serebryakov.spb.ru/refinecvs/refinecvs-0.76.783.tar.gz > >> But, please, read documentation carefully before reporting bugs -- > >> many errors could be avoided with command-line options, sctipy is > >> paranoid by default. > >> Some parts of FreeBSD repository could not be converted, because > >> contains revisions like 1.2.1 and other `I don't know what I should > >> think about this' errors. If you have some good ideas -- let me know > >> :) > N> Huh? Whats wrong with revision 1.2.1 ? This is perfectly normal cvs > N> revision number, even if you have to use a command line option to get it. > N> But it should not require any kind of special treatment. > > It is NOT perfectly normal cvs revision number. WHAT TYPE of > revision number is it? > See, the problem is that you are thinking in overly constrained terms of revision numbers that cvs creates by default, and even so don't think about RCS at all. CVS is not a real CM system its an half-assed one built on top of RCS. 1.2.1 could be a branch (this would be the usual case) or it could be a file revision created by ci(1). in fact, even old (ok, the old here is relative) versions of cvs let you create it as file revision. > Normal numbers are (first level of branching is showed only): > > x.y -- TRUNK > x.y.0.(2n) -- MAGIC for branch (in SYMBOLS only) (2n) here is completely - utterly, totaly, etc - bogus. > x.y.(2n).z -- Revision on branch > x.1.(2n+1) -- Vendor branches (in SYMBOLS only) > x.1.(2n+1).z -- Vendor imports > see above for 2n. > Ok, ok, it should be some broken vendor branch. But what do you say > about `1.1.2'? Or even simple `1' (look into sysintall's Attic). > simple 1 is simple - somebody was using ci, and forgot about dots. 1.1.2 is similar to 1.2.1. > BTW, repo from FreeBSD 4.9 is parsed almost without such errors > (sysinstall, pppd + kernel part of ppp, zoneinfo). > Some problems are with double symbols (one symbolic name marks two > revisions: MAGIC one and simple one), and with symbols, which marks > unexistent revisions (many, many such symbols over all repository). > > But my computer doesn't have enough memory to finish conversion process. > It may be worthwhile to collect such and have somebody do a fixup. > -- > Lev Serebryakov > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 11:59:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6821F16A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:59:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B2A943D4C; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:59:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2004010919593301400o4dvne>; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:59:34 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i09JvqYS035105; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:57:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i09Jvk8B035104; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:57:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> <35u1357fbm.135@mail.comcast.net> <20040109.075201.81090753.imp@bsdimp.com> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 11:57:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20040109.075201.81090753.imp@bsdimp.com> (M. Warner Losh's message of "Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:52:01 -0700 (MST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:59:36 -0000 "M. Warner Losh" writes: > Whatever. I've consulted lawyers on this who assure me that it is > legal. You've admitted to not knowing US Copyright law and are aguing > emotion, which is why I didn't reply to the rest of your message. You obviously don't want to discuss this, and it's easy to guess the real reasons. Your main problem here, and apparently that of your lawyers, is that you don't understand what the issues are to which copyright law is to be applied. The legality of collective copyrights was not my issue. Your other problem is putting words in people's mouth; I would never admit to know not knowing US copyright law because I know it quite well enough to argue FreeBSD's IP issues with anybody. If I don't write with the same seeming authority as you, that's more your problem than mine. I expected my comments to be ignored or brushed off, but I didn't expect to be brushed off in your rude and insulting manner. Maybe when I've recovered, and if I haven't made my move to NetBSD yet, I'll write up a more complete explanation of FreeBSD's IP problems instead of trying to deal with the likes of you in a conversation. We can all be glad that it hasn't mattered and might never matter that the FreeBSD IP situation is so shabby, I suppose because it sends the message that it's all essentially a Gentlemen's Agreement, with only a few violators who are more-or-less tolerated. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 12:40:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87DB16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:40:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx-3.iquest.net (mx-3.iquest.net [206.246.180.53]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D437043D39 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:39:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dyson@iquest.net) Received: (qmail 3377 invoked by uid 80); 9 Jan 2004 20:39:57 -0000 Received: from dsl-static-206-246-160-137.iquest.net (dsl-static-206-246-160-137.iquest.net [206.246.160.137]) by webmail.iquest.net (IMP) with HTTP for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:39:57 -0500 Message-ID: <1073680797.3fff119d89733@webmail.iquest.net> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:39:57 -0500 From: "" To: Miguel Mendez References: <200401062000.i06K0hSI012184@dyson.jdyson.com> <200401072317.i07NHaM9065411@apollo.backplane.com> <3FFD01CE.5070301@energyhq.es.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <3FFD01CE.5070301@energyhq.es.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.1 X-Originating-IP: 206.246.160.137 cc: Matthew Dillon cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Munden Randall J cc: jsd@jdyson.com Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 20:40:27 -0000 Quoting Miguel Mendez : > Matthew Dillon wrote: > > > interdisciplinary people left in the project. The SMP interactions > > that John mentions are not trivial... they would challenge *ME* and > > regardless of what people think about my social mores I think most > > people would agree that I am a pretty good programmer. > > My thoughts exactly. Every time I have this kind of argument, be it on > irc or in a mailing list, I get told that Sun needed X years to do the > fine grained locks in Solaris and other similar crap. Solaris was > possible because Sun could throw more engineers at the problem if > needed. FreeBSD is not in such situation. How many people have intimate > knowledge of the VM subsystem? How many people besides John Baldwin have > ever touched the SMPng code? I don't think anybody has doubts about your > programming-fu, btw :) > One comment: I doubt that I could do the things that I used to be able on FreeBSD. However, it has been my position (for years), that the many-mutex ad-hoc approach would require brilliant people to implement, and incredibly brilliant people to maintain. (I have lost alot of context -- due to persistent burnout, but still remember alot of the problems.) > > > serious trouble down the line. The idea (that some people have stated > > in later followups to this thread) that the APIs themselves will > > stabilize is a pipedream. The codebase may become reasonably stable, > > Agreed. Like I've said, the main problem I see is complexity. It > wouldn't matter as much if there were 5-10 people with deep knowledge of > SMPng, but with 1 or 2 hackers working on it, the chance that everything > will be ever fixed is quite small. > IMO, the easiest way to start the SMP work (from a FreeBSD monolithic approach), is to flatten as much of the VFS/VM code as possible into a continuation scheme... That is something that I could have done 5yrs ago in a few weeks, and then keep the networking system as it is. There would be shims deployed that would still support the sleep/wakeup scheme, so that the non-networking could and the new flat interface could be debugged... (It is NOT a good idea to bug the networking guys until the new scheme would be debugged.) At that point, there would be a code with explicit context carried around, and no nesting or stack context. This would have a small benefit of avoiding multiple deeply nested kernel stacks... Given the very flat scheme, each subsystem could be recoded into a message passing or simple continuation scheme (whatever is appropriate.) The system would be naturally able to be reworked -- without the hidden dependencies of the stack. VFS/VM layering problems then become resolvable. This is NOT a total solution, but should be the beginning of a thinking exercise that seems to lead into the correct direction. (Don't criticize this based upon the completeness of my prescription, but on what can eventually be developed!!!) > > IMHO ULE is making progress quite fast. I wouldn't rely on it for > production, but so far is looks very good. > The need for a new scheduler (or extreme rework on BSD) whenever you see the threads bouncing around from CPU to CPU. My temporary hack solutions couldn't work right, and it is good that the issue is being researched. > > non-interrupt threads due to priority borrowing, and non deterministic > > side effects from blocking in a mutex (because mutexes are used for > > many things now that spl's were used for before, this is a very > > serious issue). > > Yes, that's the main problem I see, not much on the scheduler side, but > on the 6-trillion-mutexes side. > The IQ of the maintainers would probably have to be 6-trillion, which would definitely allow the very few elegible developers to maintain their high priest status forever :-). > > See? I didn't mention DragonFly even once! Ooops, I didn't mention > > DFly twice. oops! Well, I didn't mention it more then twice anyway. > > Makes me wonder if some of the solutions proposed by DragonFly could be > ported to FreeBSD, but I doubt it will be done, since it's more or less > admitting that the current solution is wrong. > Sometimes, I think that people have their egos directed wrongly... The egos should be fed by the excellent behavior/performance/reliability of the FreeBSD OS. Being embarassed about appropriately borrowing code or ideas from other sources (WITH APPROPRIATE ATTRIBUTION) is counter productive. A developer should be able to say "I was wrong, or my code/design needs rework", without any problems. No-one produces the golden perfect code for the first iteration!!! Oh well -- I cannot think too much about this stuff, or I'll actually get emotionally involved again. I need to get a 'normal' job, not working at home and need to interact with people instead of CRTs. :-). (I give a sh*t about FreeBSD, and hope that WHATEVER problems that truly exist are fully resolved.) There is alot of blood sweat and tears in that codebase, and being involved in the project should be done with great respect. John From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 12:50:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8325916A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6DD043D2F; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:50:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i09Ko5HV092814; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:50:05 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i09Ko5iE092811; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:50:05 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:50:05 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Gary W. Swearingen" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040109224028.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: "M. Warner Losh" Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 20:50:21 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > "M. Warner Losh" writes: > > > Whatever. I've consulted lawyers on this who assure me that it is > > legal. You've admitted to not knowing US Copyright law and are aguing > > emotion, which is why I didn't reply to the rest of your message. > > You obviously don't want to discuss this, and it's easy to guess the > real reasons. Your main problem here, and apparently that of your > lawyers, is that you don't understand what the issues are to which > copyright law is to be applied. The legality of collective copyrights > was not my issue. Your other problem is putting words in people's > mouth; I would never admit to know not knowing US copyright law > because I know it quite well enough to argue FreeBSD's IP issues with > anybody. If I don't write with the same seeming authority as you, > that's more your problem than mine. > > I expected my comments to be ignored or brushed off, but I didn't > expect to be brushed off in your rude and insulting manner. Maybe > when I've recovered, and if I haven't made my move to NetBSD yet, I'll > write up a more complete explanation of FreeBSD's IP problems instead > of trying to deal with the likes of you in a conversation. > Please do. But could you also include reasoning for use of US specific view (if thats what you are going to use) as there is essentially no reason why US copyright regulations and practices should preferentialy apply to it. Especially as the licence has no such stipulations about applicable law in it. > > We can all be glad that it hasn't mattered and might never matter that > the FreeBSD IP situation is so shabby, I suppose because it sends the > message that it's all essentially a Gentlemen's Agreement, with only a > few violators who are more-or-less tolerated. > It is not clear that there is a way - as things stand - to get to a point where this wouldnot be the case. In appears very doubtful there is such a way unless you can get to get everybody whose code has been ever commited to send in a real written on paper copyright transfer, the chances of which are essentialy 0, even should you be able to trace down all involved. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 14:38:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE5D716A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657F043D64; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:37:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) i09MYDkk019417; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:34:13 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i09MYA9e019415; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:34:10 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:34:10 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Narvi Message-ID: <20040109223410.GA19314@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Narvi , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040109224028.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Copyrights (was: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:38:01 -0000 Narvi wrote: > > We can all be glad that it hasn't mattered and might never matter that > > the FreeBSD IP situation is so shabby, I suppose because it sends the > > message that it's all essentially a Gentlemen's Agreement, with only a > > few violators who are more-or-less tolerated. > > > > It is not clear that there is a way - as things stand - to get to a point > where this wouldnot be the case. In appears very doubtful there is such a > way unless you can get to get everybody whose code has been ever commited > to send in a real written on paper copyright transfer, the chances of > which are essentialy 0, even should you be able to trace down all involved. Copyright transfer is certainly not required if the code was released by the original author under a suitable free software licence (BSD/GPL/LGPL or others that permit FreeBSD to redistribute them). All that is required is that you retain the author's copyright statement in the source files. You can of course not do this with copyrighted material in general. It is the free software licence that allows you to do it if you abide by its conditions. If the claim is that there is code in the tree whose licensing status is doubtful, you should point out that code. As for the "copyright (C) the FreeBSD project" bit: As I understand, editors/publishers who compile anthologies can claim copyright on the anthologies (the act of anthologisation itself being a creative process) even if the individual articles in the anthology are copyright by their respective authors. Similarly, free software distributors like Red Hat can (and do) claim copyright on their distributions. According to OpenBSD's website, Theo de Raadt claims copyright on OpenBSD's CDs and does not permit their copying or distributing ISO images of those CDS, though of course you can assemble your own ISO and distribute those. The assembling of the FreeBSD system through various contributions is a creative act and I'm quite sure it's copyright protected, and the copyright can be claimed by "the FreeBSD project" ie the community of FreeBSD developers, even if individual components are copyrighted by others. Even the GPL has no problem with that: the GPL explicitly exempts "mere aggregation" from its virality clause so you needn't get the permission of every copyright holder of GPL'd work in the tree before distributing it, as long as it's not linked to GPL-incompatible code. The FSF does demand transfer of copyright to them for all contributions to official GNU software, but this is not because it would be illegal for them to use these contributions otherwise; it is because they think they can more successfully challenge GPL violators if they, as a single entity, hold all the copyrights. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 15:25:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8BE616A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA49C43D49; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:25:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i09NPSHV094071; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:25:29 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i09NPSPt094068; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:25:28 +0200 (EET) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:25:28 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Rahul Siddharthan In-Reply-To: <20040109223410.GA19314@online.fr> Message-ID: <20040110011022.K32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Copyrights (was: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:25:34 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Narvi wrote: > > > We can all be glad that it hasn't mattered and might never matter that > > > the FreeBSD IP situation is so shabby, I suppose because it sends the > > > message that it's all essentially a Gentlemen's Agreement, with only a > > > few violators who are more-or-less tolerated. > > > > > > > It is not clear that there is a way - as things stand - to get to a point > > where this wouldnot be the case. In appears very doubtful there is such a > > way unless you can get to get everybody whose code has been ever commited > > to send in a real written on paper copyright transfer, the chances of > > which are essentialy 0, even should you be able to trace down all involved. > > Copyright transfer is certainly not required if the code was released > by the original author under a suitable free software licence > (BSD/GPL/LGPL or others that permit FreeBSD to redistribute them). > All that is required is that you retain the author's copyright > statement in the source files. Required for what? For use of the code as we are all doing, sure, no argument. The paragraph above was about his perception of the code being in a shoddy situation due to apparent attribution of copyright to a body in a way that does not actually cause the transfer of copyright to said body (whetever it exists as a legal / physical entity anywhere or not). I just pointed out that the reversal of such situation is essentialy impossible even if such was desirable (which I doubt it is) or tried. And no, IMHO there is no real reason to even try. > > You can of course not do this with copyrighted material in general. > It is the free software licence that allows you to do it if you abide > by its conditions. > > If the claim is that there is code in the tree whose licensing status > is doubtful, you should point out that code. > I have made no such claim - and I heavily doubt there is such code. I did not make any claims at all about code, only about the copyright ownership and that it essentialy remains in the hands of the developers. Which is ok. And no, I don't really think there is much point in having long discussions over this... [snip - "umm, yes"] > > Rahul > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 15:35:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0C116A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from woozle.rinet.ru (woozle.rinet.ru [195.54.192.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150E543D31; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:35:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marck@rinet.ru) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by woozle.rinet.ru (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i09NZfNq091810; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:35:42 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from marck@rinet.ru) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:35:41 +0300 (MSK) From: Dmitry Morozovsky To: Doug Rabson In-Reply-To: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> Message-ID: <20040110023448.A86447@woozle.rinet.ru> References: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> X-NCC-RegID: ru.rinet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:35:56 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Doug Rabson wrote: DR> I've been re-evaluating the current subversion over the last couple of DR> weeks and its holding up pretty well so far. It still misses the DR> repeated merge thing that p4 does so well but in practice, merging does DR> seem to be a lot easier than with CVS due to the repository-wide DR> revision numbering system - that makes it easy to remember when your DR> last merge happened so that you don't merge a change twice. DR> DR> The three main showstoppers for moving FreeBSD to subversion would be: DR> DR> 1. A replacement for cvsup. Probably quite doable using svnadmin DR> dump and load. DR> 2. Support for $FreeBSD$ - user-specified keywords are not supported DR> and won't be until after svn-1.0 by the looks of things. DR> 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the DR> current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died DR> pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers DR> are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list DR> archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test DR> material for the migration scripts. For the third point, take a look at http://lev.serebryakov.spb.ru/refinecvs/refinecvs-0.71.763.tar.g The author uses FreeBSD repository as main test field ;-) Sincerely, D.Marck [DM5020, MCK-RIPE, DM3-RIPN] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *** Dmitry Morozovsky --- D.Marck --- Wild Woozle --- marck@rinet.ru *** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 17:37:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F082616A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB6A43D66; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:37:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from se@freebsd.org) Received: from [212.227.126.209] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Af848-0005C9-00; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:37:28 +0100 Received: from [80.132.227.119] (helo=Gatekeeper.FreeBSD.org) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Af848-0005Of-00; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:37:28 +0100 Received: from StefanEsser.FreeBSD.org (StefanEsser [192.168.0.10]) by Gatekeeper.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37AA75F18; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:37:10 +0100 (CET) Received: by StefanEsser.FreeBSD.org (Postfix, from userid 200) id A9C762428; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:37:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:37:09 +0100 From: Stefan =?iso-8859-1?Q?E=DFer?= To: Sean Farley Message-ID: <20040110013709.GA1810@StefanEsser.FreeBSD.org> References: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> <20040109113432.R1511@thor.farley.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040109113432.R1511@thor.farley.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:fa3fae9b6ca38d745862a668565919f6 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:37:44 -0000 On 2004-01-09 11:38 -0600, Sean Farley wrote: > I admit to having not tried it, but I wonder how well OpenCM > (http://www.opencm.org/) would compare. I think it would have a smaller > footprint than Subversion. I have prepared a port of OpenCM, but didn't have time to test it, yet. For that reason, I have not yet imported it into the ports repository. Just in case somebody wants to test OpenCM (or my port ;-) Regards, STefan From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 19:27:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0766016A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13422.mail.yahoo.com (web13422.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.132]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7010E43D62 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:27:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040110032731.18864.qmail@web13422.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.171.232.249] by web13422.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:27:31 PST Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:27:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" To: Sean Farley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: SCM options (was Re: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: giffunip@asme.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:27:32 -0000 Hi; There is a comparison here: http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html I think there are compelling reasons to try subversion, but we have to wait for a 1.0 Release, and this would be something that should be done gradually.. for example moving the ports tree first. cheers, Pedro. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 19:53:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC71916A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13425.mail.yahoo.com (web13425.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B94243D5C for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:53:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040110035353.99600.qmail@web13425.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.171.232.249] by web13425.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:53:53 PST Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:53:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: giffunip@asme.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:53:55 -0000 Hi; I might be in the minority here, but I happen to think FreeBSD is doing well and FreeBSD 5.x is headed in the right direction! If you look at the ports tree you will notice we are providing more packages than any other BSD or Linux distribution, and the quality of each and every port is outstanding. The features in 5.x are promising and the OS is surely becoming more "modern" so I wouldn't say we are going backwards at all. DragonFly is offering some interesting features, but some FreeBSD features, in particular KSE and trustedBSD, are not something I would ignore, so I think most of us will remain faithful to FreeBSD but we will keep an eye to see what can be ported. This doesn't mean FreeBSD is perfect. In fact it's rather disappointing that no one in FreeBSD is protecting the stack (which the other BSDs have already done), and that making FreeBSD comply with POSIX is taking so long, but guys.... this IS a voluntary effort, and just like in any project if no one does it, it won't happen! If moving to subversion/bugzilla helps us get the changes faster then we should do it but ultimately the root of this thread, as I see it, is that we are just failing to recognize that FreeBSD has REALLY good people behind it and that having so many talented people can sometimes be a problem. just my random thoughts, Pedro. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 22:40:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B2816A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C336A43D55; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:40:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0A6eCET008139; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:40:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:40:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040109.234004.70461791.imp@bsdimp.com> To: rsidd@online.fr From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20040109223410.GA19314@online.fr> References: <20040109224028.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040109223410.GA19314@online.fr> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Copyrights X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:40:17 -0000 In message: <20040109223410.GA19314@online.fr> Rahul Siddharthan writes: : As for the "copyright (C) the FreeBSD project" bit: As I understand, : editors/publishers who compile anthologies can claim copyright on the : anthologies (the act of anthologisation itself being a creative : process) even if the individual articles in the anthology are : copyright by their respective authors. This is exactly correct. There's no 'overriding' or 'stealing' other people's copyright going on. This copyright assertion is on the software that's collected, as a whole, just like a collection of short stories have copyrights be the individual owners as well as the folks that published the book. Go to a bookstore and look at a collection of short stories by different authors and you'll usually discover that there are many copyrights listed: one by the publisher, and one for each of the stories by the author of the story. This is indeed different than the GPL where copyright is typically assigned to a third party for purposes of enforcement (usually the FSF). Warner From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 11:35:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8C616A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:35:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (hak.cnd.mcgill.ca [132.216.11.133]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BEC143D41 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:35:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mat@hak.cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: from hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0AJWQba067101 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:32:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mat@hak.cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: (from mat@localhost) by hak.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.12.9/8.12.8/Submit) id i0AJWQEj067100 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:32:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:32:26 -0500 From: Mathew Kanner To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040110193226.GA38657@cnd.mcgill.ca> References: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: I speak for myself, operating in Montreal, CANADA X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on hak.cnd.mcgill.ca Subject: Re: beastie boot menu, 4th (forth) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:35:56 -0000 [I've moved this to chat as i figure it's the best forum] On Jan 09, Roman Neuhauser wrote: [ snip stuff I not responding to ] > forth looks like it's an interesting (love/hate kind of thing) language, > and I'd like to get my hands on it. Can anyone recommend good (or just > any, really) introductory material? google quickly degrades into misses, > and just a few even of those. > I really like: "Thinking Forth, A Language and Philosophy for Solving Problems", Leon Brodie (ISBN 0-13-917568-7). This book has had the most profound effect on me of any programming document I've ever read (well, other than the turbo pascal 4 manuals). Although it's dated (hand drawn illustrations, dot-matrix font for source code), it's funny and relevant. I guess I'm so fond of it because it was the first text I'd seen that taught generally how to attack software engineering problems, the importance of elegance, how/when/where to generalize. etc, etc, etc. It should be taught in every high school. --Mat -- Applicants must also have extensive knowledge of UNIX, although they should have sufficiently good programming taste to not consider this an achievement. - MIT AI Lab job ad in the /Boston Globe/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 11:55:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AD916A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A0C43D58 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:55:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id AA8D35328; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:55:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id BA2765327; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:55:40 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 4CEAB33C9A; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:55:40 +0100 (CET) To: Mathew Kanner References: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20040110193226.GA38657@cnd.mcgill.ca> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:55:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040110193226.GA38657@cnd.mcgill.ca> (Mathew Kanner's message of "Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:32:26 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: beastie boot menu, 4th (forth) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:55:50 -0000 Mathew Kanner writes: > I really like: > "Thinking Forth, A Language and Philosophy for Solving > Problems", Leon Brodie (ISBN 0-13-917568-7). > [...] > It should be taught in every high school. No way - Abelson and Sussman's _Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs_, 2nd ed., is second to none. And you get to learn Lisp, too :) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 15:09:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F356316A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AF5E743D41 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:09:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Received: (qmail 65799 messnum 229414 invoked from network[194.125.220.70/ts05-070.dublin.indigo.ie]); 10 Jan 2004 23:09:40 -0000 Received: from ts05-070.dublin.indigo.ie (HELO ?194.125.220.70?) (194.125.220.70) by mail09.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 65799) with SMTP; 10 Jan 2004 23:09:40 -0000 In-Reply-To: <20040110193226.GA38657@cnd.mcgill.ca> References: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20040110193226.GA38657@cnd.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Doyle Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:08:51 +0000 To: Mathew Kanner X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: beastie boot menu, 4th (forth) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:09:44 -0000 On 10 Jan 2004, at 19:32, Mathew Kanner wrote: > > This book has had the most profound effect on me of any > programming document I've ever read (well, other than the turbo pascal > 4 manuals). I don't know if it's showing my age or what, but I also have VERY fond memories of the Turbo Pascal 4 manuals. It was also the first IDE/compiler suite I ever owned, back when a PC running DOS 3.x was state of the art (and my school friends had BBC Micros or similar) Mike :-)