From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 15 02:46:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5EA16A4CE for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2004 02:46:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DACD943D41 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2004 02:46:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:49:39 -0500 Message-ID: <411ECE69.4010004@daleco.biz> Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:46:01 -0500 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040712 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Aug 2004 02:49:40.0044 (UTC) FILETIME=[827EB0C0:01C48272] Subject: Part of the Galaxy is missing! (MSFT, etc) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 02:46:04 -0000 A curious factoid: It's Saturday evening in the USA. No connections available to microsoft.com, hp.com, sun.com. Not that I rue that greatly, since freebsd.org is back up, but I do service some Winboxen from time to time, and Sun did create Java ... What have the evil S(rip+ |<|ddi3z been up to this time? Anyone noticed this yet, or heard anything about it? Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 17 18:28:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE1D16A4CF; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:28:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562E343D55; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:28:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 4B92E5C8F7; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:28:55 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Tom Rhodes Message-ID: <20040817182855.GI57908@elvis.mu.org> References: <20040817145641.GA1308@lum.celabo.org> <20040817122453.05edaaea@localhost> <20040817163020.GC58500@sirius.firepipe.net> <20040817180509.GE31703@droso.net> <20040817142756.3692a251@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040817142756.3692a251@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: chat@FreeBSD.org cc: Erwin Lansing Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/security/portaudit-db/database portaudit.txt portaudit.xlist portaudit.xml X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:28:55 -0000 * Tom Rhodes [040817 11:27] wrote: > > Hmmm, > > Will Andrews, Robert Watson, Wes Peters and Tom Rhodes were all > part of the original joke at BSDCan. > > The amount of people who are now also the Real Tom Rhodes has > seemed to increase since then and I can't remember who is > all involved. I am also unable to recall if PHK was involved > in the original joke. I know he was around when this picture > was taken: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~trhodes/BSDCan/P5150034.JPG That's amusing, sometimes Jamie Zawinsky will make his staff at the club he runs wear nametags with his name so as to avoid being fanboy'd. :) -- - Alfred Perlstein - Research Engineering Development Inc. - email: bright@mu.org cell: 408-480-4684 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 17 18:43:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9024616A4CE; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:43:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pittgoth.com (14.zlnp1.xdsl.nauticom.net [209.195.149.111]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2420043D1F; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:43:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (acs-24-154-239-170.zoominternet.net [24.154.239.170]) (authenticated bits=0) by pittgoth.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7HIhR0l076190 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:43:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:44:02 -0400 From: Tom Rhodes To: Alfred Perlstein Message-Id: <20040817144402.47307c50@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20040817182855.GI57908@elvis.mu.org> References: <20040817145641.GA1308@lum.celabo.org> <20040817122453.05edaaea@localhost> <20040817163020.GC58500@sirius.firepipe.net> <20040817180509.GE31703@droso.net> <20040817142756.3692a251@localhost> <20040817182855.GI57908@elvis.mu.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Tom Rhodes cc: chat@FreeBSD.org cc: Erwin Lansing Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/security/portaudit-db/database portaudit.txt portaudit.xlist portaudit.xml X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:43:29 -0000 On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:28:55 -0700 Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Tom Rhodes [040817 11:27] wrote: > > > > Hmmm, > > > > Will Andrews, Robert Watson, Wes Peters and Tom Rhodes were all > > part of the original joke at BSDCan. > > > > The amount of people who are now also the Real Tom Rhodes has > > seemed to increase since then and I can't remember who is > > all involved. I am also unable to recall if PHK was involved > > in the original joke. I know he was around when this picture > > was taken: > > > > http://people.freebsd.org/~trhodes/BSDCan/P5150034.JPG > > That's amusing, sometimes Jamie Zawinsky will make his staff > at the club he runs wear nametags with his name so as to avoid > being fanboy'd. :) That's a good idea! -- Tom Rhodes From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 18 01:46:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A165916A4CE for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:46:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from drizzle.sasknow.net (drizzle.sasknow.net [204.83.220.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ADBF43D3F for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:46:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) Received: from mail.sasknow.com (mail.sasknow.com [207.195.92.135]) by drizzle.sasknow.net (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i7I1kZv6004905; Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:46:39 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:46:35 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040817191352.R89831@drizzle.sasknow.net> References: <20040810152244.GM12472@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Virus-Status: Clean, ClamAV version devel-20040729, clamav-milter version 0.75b on drizzle.sasknow.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.723 required=7 tests=MSGID_PINE=-2.1,RT_SUBJ_RE7=-0.3,RT_SUBJ_11_15=0.3,ALL_TRUSTED=-0.8,BAYES_00=-4.9,BAYES_LOW_AND_TZ_NEAR=-7.0,AWL=1.1 autolearn=no version=3.000000-pre3 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSI-basher? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 01:46:44 -0000 Hi Paul, Sorry for jumping in kind of late. I don't follow -chat quite as religiously as I used to. However, I do know a thing or two about RSI, and keyboards. When I first started noticing stiffness/soreness in my wrists, I reacted quickly. (Given the fact that I was eighteen, I wasn't about to sluff it off to 'getting older' like some people I've talked to). I was already a 100WPM touch typist while my joints were still growing (on everything from electric typewriters to the 'old clackety-clack AT keyboards' (actually, it was an XT.. but not many people remember the difference these days :-) Now that my fingers are longer, I don't have to move my hands as much as I did when I was a young lad. :-) Anyway, the split keyboards (Microsoft Natural) were supposedly the hottest thing going five or six years ago, so I bought one. It didn't take me long to become proficient with it, but, even after a couple of months, my wrists continued to become more sore. So, especially considering I was about to start this new hosting business, which turned my 4-5 hours/day in front of a computer screen to 14-15, I knew something had to change in a hurry. My doctor and I kept an eye on things. He suggested I spare no expense on a good keyboard, considering my line of work. So, did a ton of research (consisting, mainly, of "Let me borrow that, and I'll get back to you", with about a dozen different vendors). I bought one of these for about US$300: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured.htm At the same time, I was pretty fed up with QWERTY, so I purchased one of the Dvorak-switchable ones. It was slow going for a couple of months, but that gave my hands a rest, and, due to the better design, and better layout, I can peak up to 140WPM+ for short bursts/phrases, and *comfortably* sustain 100-110WPM for everyday use. That was 1997. The keys are worn smooth, and the built-in wrist rests are shiny. I've logged many millions of keystrokes on that old girl, far, *far* beyond the rated duty cycle, and haven't had a minute of discomfort since. I still use that keyboard every day, and purchased one of their cool new black USB models last year. I take it with me when I do on-site projects. And the bonus? The layout and physical characteristics of the keyboard are different enough from standard keyboards that I can still do 90+ on a regular old QWERTY when I don't have one of my keyboards handy. The other bonus? Leave one of these connected to your workstation, and you almost don't need passwords. :-) This being said, others were correct to point out that everybody is different, and you really should spend some time in researching (and trying out) different boards to find one that works for you. And, of course, don't forget about other equally important ergonomic considerations. Spending $1K on a great keyboard, chair, desk, monitor, and maybe a footrest, will go a long way. (Maybe not *all* of those things need replacing in your case, but check it out!) That's not a lot of money to invest, IMO. One guy I worked with a while ago had a chronic kink in his neck that lasted for months. He had massage treatments, chiropractic adjustments, you name it. It was worse in spring/summer/fall and generally in the mornings, at that. It turns out the guy's computer screen faced a window that shone directly on his screen for a couple of hours every day, and he was unconsciously sitting or putting his head at funny angles to block the sun or see through the glare. Hundreds of dollars in various treatments, or twelve bucks for a set of blinds. Sometimes it's that simple. - Ryan Paul Robinson wrote to chat@freebsd.org: > Hi all, > > My hands/wrists are starting to give out. I'm spending 10+ hours a day at a > screen having done so now for maybe 15 years, and no matter how many breaks > I take, the ergonomic setup of my desk, whatever, I'm starting to feel the > onset of RSI creeping in. > > So, I want to see what keyboards you guys are using. Is the painful switch > to Dvorak worth it? Have you found a particularly decent keyboard that is > incredibly comfortable? > > I'm currently seriously considering: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5113536463&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT > > but $300 is a lot to blow on a keyboard. Even if it does have an emacs mode. > Anybody used these and reccomend them, or condemn them? > > Any thoughts/comments gratefully received before I get the credit card out. > > -- > Paul Robinson > http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Ryan Thompson SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com 901-1st Avenue North - Saskatoon, SK - S7K 1Y4 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-244-7037 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 18 18:51:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2335716A4CE for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:51:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ylpvm43.prodigy.net (ylpvm43-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D1943D1D for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:51:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-67-115-74-195.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.74.195]) i7IIpxnA015464; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:51:59 -0400 Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DB62A512EE; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:51:54 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: drhodus@machdep.com Message-ID: <20040818185154.GA41476@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <200408160104.03708.chris@behanna.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: chat@FreeBSD.org cc: chris@behanna.org Subject: Re: Public Access to Perforce? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:51:58 -0000 --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 12:38:38PM -0400, David Rhodus wrote: > On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:04:03 -0400, Chris BeHanna wro= te: > > Forgive me if this already exists. I searched the list archives, > > google, and freebsd.org and did not find any way for non-committers to > > have read-only access to the p4 repo. > >=20 > > Is there a read-only account that the general public could use? >=20 > With the perforce trees being hidden away without public access to the > changes, this makes the FreeBSD project no longer an open source > project. So remind me, where can I download the souce code to your version of DragonFly (http://www.crescentanchor.com/products/FireFly/) about which you state: FireFly can also benefit from the open-souce development model by integrating ongoing work from other BSD projects while opening most of our own innovations for inclusion back into other software programs and educational use. Or is DragonFly also no longer open souce since you're doing secret development work in a closed-souce commercial project for code that will one day be included in DragonFly? FireFly bridges the gap between open souce BSD and commercial quality. Kris --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBI6VKWry0BWjoQKURAr77AKC4/bWQ/hHRiw6hPwVCni4tzujaMACgriAv eziMVU5iUfoDul6JAoVhYvM= =OJ9S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 18 19:01:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3410D16A4CE for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:01:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA25043D45 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:01:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sdrhodus@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 77so155611rnl for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.164.57 with SMTP id m57mr185245rne; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:01:35 -0400 From: David Rhodus To: Kris Kennaway In-Reply-To: <20040818185154.GA41476@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200408160104.03708.chris@behanna.org> <20040818185154.GA41476@xor.obsecurity.org> cc: chris@behanna.org cc: drhodus@machdep.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Public Access to Perforce? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: drhodus@machdep.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:01:41 -0000 On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:51:54 -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 12:38:38PM -0400, David Rhodus wrote: > > On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:04:03 -0400, Chris BeHanna wrote: > > > Forgive me if this already exists. I searched the list archives, > > > google, and freebsd.org and did not find any way for non-committers to > > > have read-only access to the p4 repo. > > > > > > Is there a read-only account that the general public could use? > > > > With the perforce trees being hidden away without public access to the > > changes, this makes the FreeBSD project no longer an open source > > project. > > So remind me, where can I download the souce code to your version of > DragonFly (http://www.crescentanchor.com/products/FireFly/) about > which you state: > > FireFly can also benefit from the open-souce development model by > integrating ongoing work from other BSD projects while opening most > of our own innovations for inclusion back into other software programs > and educational use. > > Or is DragonFly also no longer open souce since you're doing secret > development work in a closed-souce commercial project for code that > will one day be included in DragonFly? So Kris remind me where I can download the ybsd source code, the Jupiter router code, etc... from ? -- -David Steven David Rhodus From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 18 19:06:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36D016A4D1 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:06:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 645AE43D67 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:06:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from xeon (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142DC3D3D; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:06:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:06:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@xeon.unixathome.org To: drhodus@machdep.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040818150630.S8988@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <200408160104.03708.chris@behanna.org> <20040818185154.GA41476@xor.obsecurity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chris@behanna.org cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Public Access to Perforce? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:06:48 -0000 On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, David Rhodus wrote: > On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:51:54 -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 12:38:38PM -0400, David Rhodus wrote: > > > On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:04:03 -0400, Chris BeHanna wrote: > > > > Forgive me if this already exists. I searched the list archives, > > > > google, and freebsd.org and did not find any way for non-committers to > > > > have read-only access to the p4 repo. > > > > > > > > Is there a read-only account that the general public could use? > > > > > > With the perforce trees being hidden away without public access to the > > > changes, this makes the FreeBSD project no longer an open source > > > project. > > > > So remind me, where can I download the souce code to your version of > > DragonFly (http://www.crescentanchor.com/products/FireFly/) about > > which you state: > > > > FireFly can also benefit from the open-souce development model by > > integrating ongoing work from other BSD projects while opening most > > of our own innovations for inclusion back into other software programs > > and educational use. > > > > Or is DragonFly also no longer open souce since you're doing secret > > development work in a closed-souce commercial project for code that > > will one day be included in DragonFly? > > So Kris remind me where I can download the ybsd source code, the > Jupiter router code, etc... from ? Bickering does neither project good. -- Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 18 19:09:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C10516A4CE for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:09:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ylpvm43.prodigy.net (ylpvm43-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF91543D5D for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:09:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-67-115-74-195.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.74.195]) i7IJ9TnA009185; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:09:29 -0400 Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0CA94512EE; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:09:24 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: drhodus@machdep.com Message-ID: <20040818190924.GA43377@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <200408160104.03708.chris@behanna.org> <20040818185154.GA41476@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Kj7319i9nmIyA2yE" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: chris@behanna.org cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Public Access to Perforce? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:09:28 -0000 --Kj7319i9nmIyA2yE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 03:01:35PM -0400, David Rhodus wrote: > On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:51:54 -0700, Kris Kennaway w= rote: > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 12:38:38PM -0400, David Rhodus wrote: > > > On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:04:03 -0400, Chris BeHanna = wrote: > > > > Forgive me if this already exists. I searched the list archive= s, > > > > google, and freebsd.org and did not find any way for non-committers= to > > > > have read-only access to the p4 repo. > > > > > > > > Is there a read-only account that the general public could use? > > > > > > With the perforce trees being hidden away without public access to the > > > changes, this makes the FreeBSD project no longer an open source > > > project. > >=20 > > So remind me, where can I download the souce code to your version of > > DragonFly (http://www.crescentanchor.com/products/FireFly/) about > > which you state: > >=20 > > FireFly can also benefit from the open-souce development model by > > integrating ongoing work from other BSD projects while opening most > > of our own innovations for inclusion back into other software programs > > and educational use. > >=20 > > Or is DragonFly also no longer open souce since you're doing secret > > development work in a closed-souce commercial project for code that > > will one day be included in DragonFly? >=20 > So Kris remind me where I can download the ybsd source code, the > Jupiter router code, etc... from ? Hey, it was your silly argument to begin with. Not that your response makes much sense, because those projects a) don't have anything to do with me, and b) don't claim to be development testbeds for feeding code back into an open-souce project, which is precisely what you were complaining about with respect to FreeBSD and the evil secret perforce repository. Do you see the irony now? Kris --Kj7319i9nmIyA2yE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBI6lkWry0BWjoQKURAo/pAJ9E8jasDdNSxrk8BKD56EX6d8xRhwCgoj+v trAYhqLY5HFrtxkDB1YWLQI= =wbqU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Kj7319i9nmIyA2yE-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 18 19:23:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C2616A4D7 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:23:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9C343D45 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:23:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sdrhodus@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 77so156492rnl for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.99.64 with SMTP id w64mr472791rnb; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:23:04 -0400 From: David Rhodus To: Kris Kennaway In-Reply-To: <20040818190924.GA43377@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200408160104.03708.chris@behanna.org> <20040818185154.GA41476@xor.obsecurity.org> <20040818190924.GA43377@xor.obsecurity.org> cc: chris@behanna.org cc: drhodus@machdep.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Public Access to Perforce? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: drhodus@machdep.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:23:11 -0000 On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:09:24 -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > Hey, it was your silly argument to begin with. No, I was just following up on someone else's post that wanted the perforce development work to be available for public download because I think that it should too and that anything else would just not be the correct thing for fbsd to do. Crescent Anchor is a commercial company, not an open source project, though there are several employees that work there which develop on open source projects as their full time job. -- -David Steven David Rhodus From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 18 19:29:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1906216A4CE for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:29:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF10B43D6B for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:29:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-67-115-74-195.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.115.74.195]) i7IJT8EU007403; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:29:08 -0400 Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A250651824; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:29:05 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: drhodus@machdep.com Message-ID: <20040818192905.GA44432@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <200408160104.03708.chris@behanna.org> <20040818185154.GA41476@xor.obsecurity.org> <20040818190924.GA43377@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: chris@behanna.org cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Public Access to Perforce? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:29:08 -0000 --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 03:23:04PM -0400, David Rhodus wrote: > On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:09:24 -0700, Kris Kennaway w= rote: > >=20 > > Hey, it was your silly argument to begin with. >=20 > No, I was just following up on someone else's post that wanted the > perforce development work to be available for public download because > I think that it should too and that anything else would just not be > the correct thing for fbsd to do. Crescent Anchor is a commercial > company, not an open source project, though there are several > employees that work there which develop on open source projects as > their full time job. So you'd be happy if we changed the name of the FreeBSD perforce repo to - say - LibreBSD, and charged people for access? This would bring it in line with the DragonFly/FireFly model. Of course, this would clearly be a step backwards from the situation as it exists now with FreeBSD, which again points out how silly (dare I say hypocritical) your argument is. Kris --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBI64BWry0BWjoQKURAi4OAKCaHfnF2j1Xg6ZjkLGC38aUMNmqBACgxNrs gw8yyHs3RLjRhk/Qy2gJlu8= =5qSl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 18 19:31:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9176916A4CE; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:31:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7057F43D49; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:31:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 57C695C944; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:31:19 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Tom Rhodes Message-ID: <20040818193119.GM57908@elvis.mu.org> References: <200408171425.47389.wes@softweyr.com> <20040818044023.GP96458@toxic.magnesium.net> <20040818045010.GB5339@empiric.icir.org> <20040818050439.GQ96458@toxic.magnesium.net> <4123081A.60909@cronyx.ru> <412310D7.7010706@cronyx.ru> <20040818142351.3fdce822@localhost.pittgoth.com> <20040818191122.GB3598@dhcp50.pn.xcllnt.net> <20040818191533.GA1822@electra.cse.Buffalo.EDU> <20040818152315.23fe5f6b@localhost.pittgoth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040818152315.23fe5f6b@localhost.pittgoth.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: chat@FreeBSD.org cc: Ken Smith cc: Marcel Moolenaar Subject: Re: We are all Tom Rhodes X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:31:19 -0000 * Tom Rhodes [040818 12:22] wrote: > > Know what, I just noticed something! The windows 2000 CD > talks to me!!! No, I'm not on drugs. It was in the CD-ROM > of this machine and I was installing it for this client and > the CD talked through my speakers saying "Now booting the > operating system" or something like that. > > My FreeBSD CDs don't talk to me when I boot from them so I > know that I haven't gone crazy yet! Why can't they? Why why > why? *cry* Did you know... If play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages, but what's worse is when you play it forward.... It installs Windows 2000. :( -- - Alfred Perlstein - Research Engineering Development Inc. - email: bright@mu.org cell: 408-480-4684 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 18 19:43:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F08416A4CE for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:43:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D47B43D1D for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:43:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sdrhodus@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 77so157364rnl for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.99.64 with SMTP id w64mr478580rnb; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:43:18 -0400 From: David Rhodus To: Kris Kennaway In-Reply-To: <20040818192905.GA44432@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200408160104.03708.chris@behanna.org> <20040818185154.GA41476@xor.obsecurity.org> <20040818190924.GA43377@xor.obsecurity.org> <20040818192905.GA44432@xor.obsecurity.org> cc: chris@behanna.org cc: drhodus@machdep.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Public Access to Perforce? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: drhodus@machdep.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:43:19 -0000 On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:29:05 -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > So you'd be happy if we changed the name of the FreeBSD perforce repo > to - say - LibreBSD, and charged people for access? This would bring > it in line with the DragonFly/FireFly model. You know, that might not be a bad idea you have there, I think you might be on to something. Possibly a way fbsd could possibly complete it's fine grain locking task ? -- -David Steven David Rhodus From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 18 20:17:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9813C16A4CE; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:17:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pittgoth.com (14.zlnp1.xdsl.nauticom.net [209.195.149.111]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3947543D31; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:17:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost.pittgoth.com (acs-24-154-239-170.zoominternet.net [24.154.239.170]) (authenticated bits=0) by pittgoth.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7IKHGiT007548 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:17:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:17:51 -0400 From: Tom Rhodes To: Alfred Perlstein Message-Id: <20040818161751.5e7c43e7@localhost.pittgoth.com> In-Reply-To: <20040818193119.GM57908@elvis.mu.org> References: <200408171425.47389.wes@softweyr.com> <20040818044023.GP96458@toxic.magnesium.net> <20040818045010.GB5339@empiric.icir.org> <20040818050439.GQ96458@toxic.magnesium.net> <4123081A.60909@cronyx.ru> <412310D7.7010706@cronyx.ru> <20040818142351.3fdce822@localhost.pittgoth.com> <20040818191122.GB3598@dhcp50.pn.xcllnt.net> <20040818191533.GA1822@electra.cse.Buffalo.EDU> <20040818152315.23fe5f6b@localhost.pittgoth.com> <20040818193119.GM57908@elvis.mu.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@FreeBSD.org cc: Tom Rhodes cc: Ken Smith cc: Marcel Moolenaar Subject: Re: We are all Tom Rhodes X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:17:19 -0000 On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:31:19 -0700 Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Tom Rhodes [040818 12:22] wrote: > > > > Know what, I just noticed something! The windows 2000 CD > > talks to me!!! No, I'm not on drugs. It was in the CD-ROM > > of this machine and I was installing it for this client and > > the CD talked through my speakers saying "Now booting the > > operating system" or something like that. > > > > My FreeBSD CDs don't talk to me when I boot from them so I > > know that I haven't gone crazy yet! Why can't they? Why why > > why? *cry* > > Did you know... > > If play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages, > but what's worse is when you play it forward.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It installs Windows 2000. > > :( HAHA! -- Tom Rhodes From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 02:55:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFFE816A4CE for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 02:55:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA39543D48 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 02:55:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@behanna.org) Received: from oh-65-40-131-183.sta.sprint-hsd.net ([65.40.131.183] helo=[192.168.168.11]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bxd5k-0000Hm-00; Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:55:53 -0700 From: Chris BeHanna Organization: Western Pennsylvania Pizza Disposal Unit To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:13:45 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200408160104.03708.chris@behanna.org> <20040818192905.GA44432@xor.obsecurity.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200408181613.45680.chris@behanna.org> cc: dhrodus@machdep.com cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Public Access to Perforce? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: chris@behanna.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 02:55:53 -0000 On Wednesday 18 August 2004 15:43, David Rhodus wrote: > On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:29:05 -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > So you'd be happy if we changed the name of the FreeBSD perforce repo > > to - say - LibreBSD, and charged people for access? This would bring > > it in line with the DragonFly/FireFly model. > > You know, that might not be a bad idea you have there, I think you > might be on to something. Possibly a way fbsd could possibly complete > it's fine grain locking task ? I just want to go on record as distancing myself from the preposterous notion that a lack of non-committer access to the p4 repo makes FreeBSD no longer an open-source project. I use p4 at work, and I love it. IMHO, it's far and away superior to CVS, and the proxies make it possible to offer up-to-the-submission up-to-dateness to the source tree while minimizing load on the master server, unlike the "wait an hour for the repo mirror to propagate, and it might propagate mid-commit" method that exists now. My sole motivation is my own convenience. In return, I have submitted (and will continue to submit) patches as I am able (thus far, a few of my patches have made it into the ports tree). I am also willing, as I've stated on current@, to donate a portion of the cost of a new disk, if that's needed, to my local mirror to support running p4proxy there. -- Chris BeHanna Software Engineer (Remove "bogus" before responding.) chris@bogus.behanna.org Turning coffee into software since 1990. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 05:00:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 919C616A4CE for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 05:00:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from illinois.dyndns.org (adsl-68-76-174-35.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net [68.76.174.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2095943D1D for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 05:00:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bja@illinois.dyndns.org) Received: from [192.168.1.250] (unknown [192.168.1.250]) by illinois.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F8E8A04F for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 05:02:13 +0000 (GMT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <20040818150630.S8988@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <200408160104.03708.chris@behanna.org> <20040818185154.GA41476@xor.obsecurity.org> <20040818150630.S8988@xeon.unixathome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Brandon Adams Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:00:09 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Subject: Re: Public Access to Perforce? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 05:00:11 -0000 On Aug 18, 2004, at 2:06 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, David Rhodus wrote: > >> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:51:54 -0700, Kris Kennaway >> wrote: >>> On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 12:38:38PM -0400, David Rhodus wrote: >>>> On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:04:03 -0400, Chris BeHanna >>>> wrote: >>>>> Forgive me if this already exists. I searched the list >>>>> archives, >>>>> google, and freebsd.org and did not find any way for >>>>> non-committers to >>>>> have read-only access to the p4 repo. >>>>> >>>>> Is there a read-only account that the general public could use? >>>> >>>> With the perforce trees being hidden away without public access to >>>> the >>>> changes, this makes the FreeBSD project no longer an open source >>>> project. >>> >>> So remind me, where can I download the souce code to your version of >>> DragonFly (http://www.crescentanchor.com/products/FireFly/) about >>> which you state: >>> >>> FireFly can also benefit from the open-souce development model by >>> integrating ongoing work from other BSD projects while opening most >>> of our own innovations for inclusion back into other software >>> programs >>> and educational use. >>> >>> Or is DragonFly also no longer open souce since you're doing secret >>> development work in a closed-souce commercial project for code that >>> will one day be included in DragonFly? >> >> So Kris remind me where I can download the ybsd source code, the >> Jupiter router code, etc... from ? > > Bickering does neither project good. No, but it's good entertainment for those of us who lurk here. brandon From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 13:21:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A9416A4CE for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:21:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.knology.net (smtp.knology.net [24.214.63.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8FD4B43D3F for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:21:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 17585 invoked by uid 0); 19 Aug 2004 13:21:31 -0000 Received: from user-69-73-60-132.knology.net (HELO ?10.0.0.68?) (69.73.60.132) by smtp5.knology.net with SMTP; 19 Aug 2004 13:21:31 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <007001c485ec$9d3bbb10$3300a8c0@verizon.net> References: <41248C2F.8020401@quadspeed.com> <417F9703-F1DC-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <007001c485ec$9d3bbb10$3300a8c0@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9FDC1E28-F1E2-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Kelly Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:21:05 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Subject: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:21:12 -0000 Providing an introduction to a forwarded message is about the only acceptable time to top-post, as I am doing right now. My pet peeve against top-posters is wonderfully demonstrated this morning when (top-poster) (my edit) failed to read very much of a message he replied to. First, he didn't read enough to know that he was replying to the wrong person. Is not I who is having issues with loss of HD space. Second he didn't read enough to see that tunefs(8) was already listed as a means of reducing the reserved filesystem space. Third he didn't read my .signature. Conclusion: Top-posters don't bother to read. On Aug 19, 2004, at 8:00 AM, (top-poster) wrote: > Actually, this is about right. Sorry... Though people more expert > than I > can suggest cmd parameters which will recover a portion of this > overhead for > you. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Kelly" > To: (not the top-poster) > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 8:35 AM > Subject: Re: Large Disks lose loads of diskspace > > >> >> On Aug 19, 2004, at 6:17 AM, (not the top-poster) wrote: >> >>> I installed 2 new 200gb harddrives lately. Both show up in bios as >>> 200gb, on boot they are shown as 190gb (probably the 1000->1024 >>> conversion), but when I create a filesystem they are only 180gb. >>> Now, I can live with a 20gb loss, but when I check the disks free >>> space, they have only 166gb free with 0 gb used. Could be me, but I >>> find 34gb a bit excessive. I hope anyone has a clue as to what I'm >>> doing wrong. >>> >>> Hope someone knows what is going on. >> >> newfs(1) says: >> >>> -m free-space >>> The percentage of space reserved from normal users; the >>> minimum >>> free space threshold. The default value used is defined >>> by >>> MINFREE from , currently 8%. See >>> tunefs(8) >>> for >>> more details on how to set this option. >> >> 180 - 8% = 165.6 >> >> -- >> David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net >> ====================================================================== >> == >> Top posters will not be shown the honor of a reply. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Top posters will not be shown the honor of a reply. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 13:48:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E75D16A4CE for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:48:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C31743D4C for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:48:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from user-12lcc9b.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.49.43] helo=bluerondo) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BxnHP-0002WM-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:48:35 -0700 Received: (qmail 3151 invoked by uid 1002); 19 Aug 2004 13:48:40 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:48:40 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Kelly Message-ID: <20040819134840.GA3104@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <41248C2F.8020401@quadspeed.com> <417F9703-F1DC-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> <007001c485ec$9d3bbb10$3300a8c0@verizon.net> <9FDC1E28-F1E2-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9FDC1E28-F1E2-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> X-Operating-System: DragonFly 1.1-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:48:36 -0000 David Kelly said on Aug 19, 2004 at 08:21:05: > Providing an introduction to a forwarded message is about the only > acceptable time to top-post, as I am doing right now. Two observations: 1. While top-posting is bad in the mailing list context, it is often necessary in the corporate context. It took me a while to appreciate this, but it's much easier for a secretary or a customer support person to look through the bottom of an email for *all* related correspondence than to dig through (possibly weeks-old or months-old) email. You may have quoted what *you* think is "relevant", but maybe you unknowingly omitted something important, or maybe you didn't but the reader wants to be sure of that too. If you quoted everything, you may as well top-post, rather than force your reader to wade through pages of old stuff before getting to your point. Most people are used to email in the corporate context and thus used to top-posting. 2. Microsoft Outlook, which unfortunately a lot of people use, doesn't encourage quoting in-text: the "original message" isn't set off by ">" marks or anything else to indicate it wasn't something you wrote. (Perhaps this is a user-settable option, I don't know.) Stemming from these, while top-posting is annoying for old-timers on technical mailing lists, it's unfair to bash newcomers for it or to write "Top posters will not be shown the honor of a reply" (many may not even know what you mean by "top-posting"). A polite correction is better. If it bugs you so much, you can write a form letter and send that out each time, or a link to one of the numerous FAQs on the web. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 15:39:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1FA116A4CE for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:39:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0BC843D39 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:39:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from copper3 (ip168.gte250.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.250.168]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A2632736; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:39:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles Oppermann" To: "'Rahul Siddharthan'" , "'David Kelly'" Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:39:37 -0700 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <20040819134840.GA3104@online.fr> Thread-Index: AcSF8z9fNcnSotrtRsiohqTERMzHZgAD3dJw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-Id: <20040819153936.84A2632736@smtp2.pacifier.net> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:39:39 -0000 >> Most people are used to email in the corporate context and thus used to top-posting. << That's a valid point that's not appreciated on either side of the argument. >> 2. Microsoft Outlook, which unfortunately a lot of people use, doesn't encourage quoting in-text: the "original message" isn't set off by ">" marks or anything else to indicate it wasn't something you wrote. (Perhaps this is a user-settable option, I don't know.) << It is a user-option in the Tools menu, Options, E-mail Options, reply and forwarding section. Charles Oppermann, Copper Software http://weblogs.asp.net/chuckop/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 15:51:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79EA16A4CE for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:51:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kane.otenet.gr (kane.otenet.gr [195.170.0.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF0BA43D53 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:51:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (aris.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.226])i7JFombQ019332; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:50:48 +0300 Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (orion [127.0.0.1]) i7JFoe17005811; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:50:40 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost)i7JFoeGo005810; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:50:40 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:50:40 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Charles Oppermann Message-ID: <20040819155040.GA5392@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> References: <20040819134840.GA3104@online.fr> <20040819153936.84A2632736@smtp2.pacifier.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040819153936.84A2632736@smtp2.pacifier.net> cc: 'Rahul Siddharthan' cc: 'David Kelly' cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:51:18 -0000 On 2004-08-19 08:39, Charles Oppermann wrote: > > 2. Microsoft Outlook, which unfortunately a lot of people use, doesn't > > encourage quoting in-text: the "original message" isn't set off by > > ">" marks or anything else to indicate it wasn't something you > > wrote. (Perhaps this is a user-settable option, I don't know.) > > It is a user-option in the Tools menu, Options, E-mail Options, reply and > forwarding section. Which, of course, defaults to "off" :-( This is IMHO part of this ``lack of encouragement'' mentioned in the previous post. A lot of things are configurable in Outlook, but their default options are explicitly in support of the "corporate style of posting" (which isn't very irrational, given the type of people that Outlook was supposedly made for). These defaults are horrible for posting to Internet lists, but since they're defaults hey... nobody is going to change them anyway. At least not the sort of user who sits in front of a keyboard and monitor and "just types". From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 16:01:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D267216A4CF for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:01:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEC8243D48 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:01:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from copper3 (ip168.gte250.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.250.168]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5A696E6C8; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:01:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles Oppermann" To: "'Person, Roderick'" , "'Giorgos Keramidas'" Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:01:39 -0700 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B062483BD@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> Thread-Index: AcSGBGIJ0hG8nah9ROyfodTnNn/2kwAAIjhAAAAwnGA= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-Id: <20040819160138.C5A696E6C8@smtp3.pacifier.net> cc: 'Rahul Siddharthan' cc: 'David Kelly' cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:01:41 -0000 << But, even when you change the defaults in Outlook, it still puts the cursor at the top of the reply or forward. It takes a lot of work to scroll to the bottom of a message.... >> I suspect you meant this in jest. Just in case however, CTRL+END will do the trick. ---Charles From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 16:08:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D73416A4D7 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:08:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE1643D31 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:08:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from user-12lcc9b.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.49.43] helo=bluerondo) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BxpSU-0001P4-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:08:10 -0700 Received: (qmail 3829 invoked by uid 1002); 19 Aug 2004 16:08:17 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:08:17 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Charles Oppermann Message-ID: <20040819160817.GA3811@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Charles Oppermann , "'Person, Roderick'" , 'Giorgos Keramidas' , 'David Kelly' , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B062483BD@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> <20040819160138.C5A696E6C8@smtp3.pacifier.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040819160138.C5A696E6C8@smtp3.pacifier.net> X-Operating-System: DragonFly 1.1-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: 'Giorgos Keramidas' cc: 'David Kelly' cc: "'Person, Roderick'" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:08:13 -0000 Charles Oppermann said on Aug 19, 2004 at 09:01:39: > << > But, even when you change the defaults in Outlook, it still puts the cursor > at the top of the reply or forward. It takes a lot of work to scroll to the > bottom of a message.... > >> > > I suspect you meant this in jest. Just in case however, CTRL+END will do > the trick. Anyway, I *want* the cursor on top, because I want to go through the message I'm quoting and remove unnecessary bits, not quote the whole thing. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 16:25:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D9616A4CF for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:25:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.alameda.net [64.81.53.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C205043D45 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:25:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ulf@Alameda.net) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7E1F73A201; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:25:22 -0700 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Charles Oppermann Message-ID: <20040819162522.GD15230@seven.alameda.net> References: <20040819134840.GA3104@online.fr> <20040819153936.84A2632736@smtp2.pacifier.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040819153936.84A2632736@smtp2.pacifier.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.10-RELEASE-p2 cc: 'Rahul Siddharthan' cc: 'David Kelly' cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:25:23 -0000 On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 08:39:37AM -0700, Charles Oppermann wrote: > >> > Most people are used to email in the corporate context and thus > used to top-posting. > << > > That's a valid point that's not appreciated on either side of the argument. > > >> > 2. Microsoft Outlook, which unfortunately a lot of people use, doesn't > encourage quoting in-text: the "original message" isn't set off by > ">" marks or anything else to indicate it wasn't something you > wrote. (Perhaps this is a user-settable option, I don't know.) > << > > It is a user-option in the Tools menu, Options, E-mail Options, reply and > forwarding section. > > Charles Oppermann, Copper Software > http://weblogs.asp.net/chuckop/ An option Outlook loves to ignore, just like it loves to ignore to use ASCII only. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 19:10:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B94916A4CE for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:10:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138C243D4C for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:10:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from chuckop1 (66.89.130.110.ptr.us.xo.net [66.89.130.110]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 783D86E70D; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001101c48620$75cb4df0$6c01a8c0@zettasystems.com> From: "Charles Oppermann" To: References: <20040819134840.GA3104@online.fr><20040819153936.84A2632736@smtp2.pacifier.net> <20040819162522.GD15230@seven.alameda.net> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:12:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 cc: 'Rahul Siddharthan' cc: 'David Kelly' cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: OT: Outlook message formats X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:10:06 -0000 > An option Outlook loves to ignore, just like it loves to ignore to use > ASCII only. I'm not aware that Outlook will ignore the settings that control how original text is presented. In my experience, it's always respected the current setting. When you say "use ASCII only" are you referring to the character set to use, or possibly the option to create messages using "plain text"? Many people get tripped up by the "message format" option. There are three options - plain text, rich text and HTML. Actually, the label for this option is "Compose in this message format". This option only controls what the default format will be for a new message - it does not control what format is used when replying or forwarding messages. There are good reasons to match the received format, but I admit it's confusing to many when they want to send a plain text reply to a HTML message. In those cases, the format of the reply/forward can be changed from the menu. If you want to ignore non-plain text in messages, you can set the "Read all standard mail in plain text" option. This is in the E-mail options dialog in Outlook 2003. If you have an older version, you can set a registry entry to affect the same result. This simply means that Outlook will use the "text/plain" MIME body part when presenting messages. Thus, all replies and forwards of received messages will start out in the "Plain text" format. Please forgive this off-topic posting. ---Chuck From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 19:45:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D8816A4CF for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:45:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.alameda.net [64.81.53.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8795043D46 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:45:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ulf@Alameda.net) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4B4113A201; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:45:10 -0700 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Charles Oppermann Message-ID: <20040819194509.GE15230@seven.alameda.net> References: <20040819162522.GD15230@seven.alameda.net> <001101c48620$75cb4df0$6c01a8c0@zettasystems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001101c48620$75cb4df0$6c01a8c0@zettasystems.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.10-RELEASE-p2 cc: 'Rahul Siddharthan' cc: 'David Kelly' cc: ulf@Alameda.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: Outlook message formats X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:45:10 -0000 On Thu, Aug 19, 2004 at 12:12:12PM -0700, Charles Oppermann wrote: > > An option Outlook loves to ignore, just like it loves to ignore to use > > ASCII only. > > I'm not aware that Outlook will ignore the settings that control how > original text is presented. In my experience, it's always respected the > current setting. > > When you say "use ASCII only" are you referring to the character set to use, > or possibly the option to create messages using "plain text"? > > Many people get tripped up by the "message format" option. There are three > options - plain text, rich text and HTML. Actually, the label for this > option is "Compose in this message format". > > This option only controls what the default format will be for a new > message - it does not control what format is used when replying or > forwarding messages. There are good reasons to match the received format, > but I admit it's confusing to many when they want to send a plain text reply > to a HTML message. In those cases, the format of the reply/forward can be > changed from the menu. > > If you want to ignore non-plain text in messages, you can set the "Read all > standard mail in plain text" option. This is in the E-mail options dialog > in Outlook 2003. If you have an older version, you can set a registry entry > to affect the same result. > > This simply means that Outlook will use the "text/plain" MIME body part when > presenting messages. Thus, all replies and forwards of received messages > will start out in the "Plain text" format. > > Please forgive this off-topic posting. > > ---Chuck I have set anything I can find to plain text, yet often when I get email in HTML or Richtext and press reply, it will not convert it to Plain text, but keep the format the orignal email was in. Same with the ident (preceed with > for reply) is often ignored. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 19:51:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 091EC16A4CE for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:51:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE88043D31 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:51:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024756294 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:51:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 99649-08 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:51:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3128B6292 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:51:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <412504B1.8090908@makeworld.com> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:51:13 -0500 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (X11/20040809) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040819162522.GD15230@seven.alameda.net> <001101c48620$75cb4df0$6c01a8c0@zettasystems.com> <20040819194509.GE15230@seven.alameda.net> In-Reply-To: <20040819194509.GE15230@seven.alameda.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: OT: Outlook message formats X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:51:20 -0000 Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > I have set anything I can find to plain text, yet often when I get email > in HTML or Richtext and press reply, it will not convert it to Plain text, > but keep the format the orignal email was in. > > Same with the ident (preceed with > for reply) is often ignored. > Then yanno what? Get another email client - Thunderbird for example, is a wunnerful alt. to the MS way of doing things. -- Best regards, Chris When working toward the solution of a problem, it always helps if you know the answer. Provided of course you know there is a problem. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 20:18:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBEA916A4CE for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:18:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A43B443D39 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:18:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from chuckop1 (66.89.130.110.ptr.us.xo.net [66.89.130.110]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A34F6AF47; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:18:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles Oppermann" To: Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:20:59 -0700 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <20040819194509.GE15230@seven.alameda.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcSGJRGTE2q8eHwMQCiYpUIkotDaqAAA/NAg Message-Id: <20040819201845.8A34F6AF47@smtp4.pacifier.net> cc: 'Rahul Siddharthan' cc: 'David Kelly' cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: OT: Outlook message formats X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:18:55 -0000 >> I have set anything I can find to plain text, yet often when I get email in HTML or Richtext and press reply, it will not convert it to Plain text, but keep the format the orignal email was in. << That's exactly what I was saying. When you reply to a message in Outlook, it will always use the original message format. We can debate why that is or is not a good thing, but that is the way it is. The only way around it is to read all messages in plain text. If running Outlook 2003, use the option I mentioned. If using Outlook 2002, modify the registry. Details at: http://www.outlook-tips.net/howto/plain_text.htm From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 21:57:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822F516A4CE for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:57:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail2.mdx.safepages.com (mail2.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 408CE43D1F for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:57:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phummers@iname.com) Received: by mail2.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id BBE2A1D1216; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:57:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 1Cust147.tnt14.tco2.da.uu.net (1Cust147.tnt14.tco2.da.uu.net [67.201.192.147]) by mail2.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5861D1233 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:57:22 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:56:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Hummers X-X-Sender: phummers@cakes.iguanas.bsd To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9FDC1E28-F1E2-11D8-AE79-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> Message-ID: <20040819175326.Y6652-100000@cakes.iguanas.bsd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:57:23 -0000 On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, David Kelly wrote: > Providing an introduction to a forwarded message is about the only > acceptable time to top-post, as I am doing right now. Do you mean people who post replies above unedited referents? =) -Peter Hummers /Sent via FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org (_)/// From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 23:50:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2847C16A4CE for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:50:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA33343D41 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:50:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cristjc@comcast.net) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (c-24-6-187-112.client.comcast.net[24.6.187.112]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20040819235033013005s8f6e>; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:50:33 +0000 Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (localhost. [127.0.0.1]) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i7JNoWeC040484 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cristjc@comcast.net) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i7JNoWGO040483 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cristjc@comcast.net) X-Authentication-Warning: blossom.cjclark.org: cjc set sender to cristjc@comcast.net using -f Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:50:32 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040819235032.GA40438@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Subject: BugMeNot.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Crist J. Clark" List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:50:34 -0000 Anyone know what's happened to BugMeNot.com? Broken? Defaced? Shut down? -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 19 23:57:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A83616A4CE for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:57:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freeode.co.uk (freeode.co.uk [213.162.123.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BF543D39 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:57:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from spam-trap@freeode.co.uk) Received: from lexx (lexx.freeode.co.uk [10.253.253.2]) by mail.freeode.co.uk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7JNvQe6005373 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:57:26 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from spam-trap@freeode.co.uk) From: John Murphy To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:57:26 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: What annoys me more... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: sub01@freeode.co.uk List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:57:28 -0000 Can't resist sticking my 2P worth in here, sorry. What annoys me more than top-posting or html postings is the tendency of MS email clients to horribly reformat quoted text so that odd words appear on a line by themselves. I've even seen it happen to original text when the poster hits CR at some presumably inappropriate time. Never used Outlook or Outlook Express myself but I get the impression that what they see is NOT what they send. -- John. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 00:41:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9895516A4CE for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:41:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ozlabs.org (ozlabs.org [203.10.76.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7A343D2D for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:41:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (blackwater.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCEBC2BDA1 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:41:00 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3ACB151201; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:10:55 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:10:55 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: sub01@freeode.co.uk Message-ID: <20040820004055.GC85432@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="b0bHyb0BmsSIM7d2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Broken mail (was: What annoys me more...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:41:06 -0000 --b0bHyb0BmsSIM7d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, 20 August 2004 at 0:57:26 +0100, John Murphy wrote: > Can't resist sticking my 2P worth in here, sorry. > > What annoys me more than top-posting or html postings is the tendency > of MS email clients to horribly reformat quoted text so that odd words > appear on a line by themselves. Indeed. > I've even seen it happen to original text when the poster hits CR at > some presumably inappropriate time. > > Never used Outlook or Outlook Express myself but I get the > impression that what they see is NOT what they send. I used to think that too, for the obvious reason that you can't understand why anybody would send such a broken message. Since then, I've come to the realization that yes, indeed, a very large number of people *do* send obviously broken text. The main reason seems to be that it's just too difficult to get right. For example, I recently received a message reply in plain text that, apart from breaking chronological sequence ("top posting"), was relatively legible: I think I heard about this scanner before. It should be fine just to bring in, but the problem I have is that we don't offer refunds. We can credit your account, but if you want a credit, I'll need to see something from Canon authorising it, then I'll need to talk to the managing director about it. If you're happy with just a credit, please fill in the attached form, and when it comes in I'll do the credit straight away. Other than that, the procedure is exactly the same as a normal warranty. The attached form was a Microsoft "Word" document, so I bounced it to my Microsoft box (which I have to maintain for work) and looked at it with "Outlook". There the text was displayed like this: I think I heard about this scanner before. It should be fine just to brin= g in, but the problem I have is that we don't offer refunds. We can credit = your account, but if you want a credit, I'll need to see something from Canon authorising it, = then I'll need to talk to the managing director about it. If you're happy w= ith just a credit,=20 please fill in the attached form, and when it comes in I'll do the credit= straight away. Other than that, the procedure is exactly the same as a nor= mal warranty. When copying it, it was a single line. On resizing the window, the line breaks changed. In other words, "Outlook" deliberately breaks the format. That doesn't improve it even under Microsoft. It seems that people learn to live with this. I can't understand why Microsoft does it, though. Here's another example, sent by a professional who should know better. =20 Rather than your guidelines graham which are difficult to operationalise,= it =20 makes sense to me to frame it as a risk management policy - for both open= =20 standards compliant and non compliant software. =20 The attached paper, (pps30-34 together with the references) is a good gui= de to=20 this, of course it needs perhaps more attention to the non compliant software=20 scenario and I am sure that MS's site will happily have that covered. ;-) This message was displayed in exactly the same way under mutt. One other thing, though: it took me forever to find the mutt version. "Outlook", it does not display the date the message was sent, at least not by default. The only headers shown are the To: and Cc: headers, and even there the email addresses have been stripped. There's a date in the index, but it's wrong; I suppose it's the date that the message arrived on the box, which is really useful. I notice also that this message states: Extra line breaks in this message were removed. That's probably why it starts with: Brenda Thanks, I'll read this and see what we come up with, (let's do any= thing so as not to re-invent the wheel!) In the original, it was two well-spaced lines. In general, then, it seems to me that "Outlook" displays text at least as badly under Microsoft as it does under UNIX. It's just that the Microsoft users seem to accept it. I'm sure that it's possible to configure "Outlook" to be less stupid. But how many people do that? I've looked through my "Outlook" inbox for other examples. What I can't find is an easily legible message. Even when there is no obvious breakage, I find messages sent with "Outlook" or other Microsoft-based MUAs to be very difficult to read. Greg -- Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen. Finger grog@FreeBSD.org for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --b0bHyb0BmsSIM7d2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBJUiXIubykFB6QiMRAnNqAJ9DsTQRyChLpFI8B5fSX/vIwk8+xACgjfO6 sD/5kTwdwu1dfjJnRE4y7vc= =XsD1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --b0bHyb0BmsSIM7d2-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 00:51:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB35916A4CE for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:51:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE9B43D3F for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:51:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from xeon (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114873D3D for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:51:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@xeon.unixathome.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040819153936.84A2632736@smtp2.pacifier.net> Message-ID: <20040819204755.N39209@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <20040819153936.84A2632736@smtp2.pacifier.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: RE: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:51:09 -0000 On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Charles Oppermann wrote: > >> > Most people are used to email in the corporate context and thus > used to top-posting. > << > > That's a valid point that's not appreciated on either side of the argument. I am not speaking to any particular person when I say: When one joins a group, one tends to follow the practices of that group. That applies whether it's a country, a club, or a list. Claims that you behave differently elsewhere are invalid because different groups have different behaviours. You'll fit in better if you adapt. If you feel that strongly against a group view, perhaps you shouldn't be in that group. -- Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 00:51:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83CE916A4CF for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:51:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CC7843D46 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:51:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from xeon (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDCD63D3D; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:51:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@xeon.unixathome.org To: Charles Oppermann In-Reply-To: <20040819160138.C5A696E6C8@smtp3.pacifier.net> Message-ID: <20040819205128.R39209@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <20040819160138.C5A696E6C8@smtp3.pacifier.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: 'Giorgos Keramidas' cc: 'Rahul Siddharthan' cc: 'David Kelly' cc: "'Person, Roderick'" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:51:42 -0000 On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Charles Oppermann wrote: > << > But, even when you change the defaults in Outlook, it still puts the cursor > at the top of the reply or forward. It takes a lot of work to scroll to the > bottom of a message.... > >> Try Control-END. -- Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 01:05:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C7E16A4CF for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:05:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp800.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp800.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A03C43D1F for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:05:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brian@planetshwoop.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.10?) (aenid@sbcglobal.net@68.248.252.45 with plain) by smtp800.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Aug 2004 01:05:00 -0000 Message-ID: <41254E39.508@planetshwoop.com> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:04:57 -0500 From: Brian Sobolak User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.2 (Windows/20040707) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey References: <20040820004055.GC85432@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20040820004055.GC85432@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: sub01@freeode.co.uk cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Broken mail X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:05:01 -0000 Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 20 August 2004 at 0:57:26 +0100, John Murphy wrote: >>Never used Outlook or Outlook Express myself but I get the >>impression that what they see is NOT what they send. > > > I used to think that too, for the obvious reason that you can't > understand why anybody would send such a broken message. Since then, > I've come to the realization that yes, indeed, a very large number of > people *do* send obviously broken text. The main reason seems to be > that it's just too difficult to get right. This is totally true. Outlook on the PC absolutely can't deal with line breaks appropriately. It was the single most frustrating thing about it. That was, of course, until I had to use Lotus Notes as my MUA again. Makes Outlook appear like a dream. > I'm sure that it's possible to configure "Outlook" to be less stupid. > But how many people do that? The single biggest prevention is simply habit. I find there is an equal number of people who try to configure Outlook to appear normal vs those who configure it to look horrendous, ie Christmas wallpaper in the background or Comic Sans fonts. > I've looked through my "Outlook" inbox for other examples. What I > can't find is an easily legible message. Even when there is no > obvious breakage, I find messages sent with "Outlook" or other > Microsoft-based MUAs to be very difficult to read. > Actually, interestingly enough, there is significant differences btwn the PC and Mac versions of Outlook (the mac version is called Entourage). It displays less breakage with common mail etiquette than Outlook for the PC - it gets the line returns right, is less likely to send RTF, etc. And again I'll say: anything Outlook does poorly, Lotus can do worse. You'd struggle to find a worse MUA. brian From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 01:09:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27FF16A4CE for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:09:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ozlabs.org (ozlabs.org [203.10.76.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720BA43D39 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:09:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (blackwater.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28CA32BD68 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:09:08 +1000 (EST) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3D97C51201; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:39:06 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:39:06 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brian Sobolak Message-ID: <20040820010906.GE85432@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20040820004055.GC85432@wantadilla.lemis.com> <41254E39.508@planetshwoop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0k24IdCjZr+ZpLJG" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41254E39.508@planetshwoop.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: sub01@freeode.co.uk cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Broken mail X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:09:24 -0000 --0k24IdCjZr+ZpLJG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 19 August 2004 at 20:04:57 -0500, Brian Sobolak wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> On Friday, 20 August 2004 at 0:57:26 +0100, John Murphy wrote: > >>> Never used Outlook or Outlook Express myself but I get the >>> impression that what they see is NOT what they send. >> >> >> I used to think that too, for the obvious reason that you can't >> understand why anybody would send such a broken message. Since then, >> I've come to the realization that yes, indeed, a very large number of >> people *do* send obviously broken text. The main reason seems to be >> that it's just too difficult to get right. > > This is totally true. Outlook on the PC absolutely can't deal with line > breaks appropriately. It was the single most frustrating thing about it. > > That was, of course, until I had to use Lotus Notes as my MUA again. > Makes Outlook appear like a dream. Heh. Been there, done that. > And again I'll say: anything Outlook does poorly, Lotus can do > worse. You'd struggle to find a worse MUA. Agreed. Greg -- Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen. Finger grog@FreeBSD.org for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --0k24IdCjZr+ZpLJG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBJU8yIubykFB6QiMRAj1cAJ9ZFFyZMq8vjvaNiP3dTV9T3/XNUgCfdtQ0 S1eiAt6bkdR+ym61wnG51T0= =Hbcp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0k24IdCjZr+ZpLJG-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 01:16:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F0BE16A4CE for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:16:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E4943D1D for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:16:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from user-12lcc9b.cable.mindspring.com ([69.86.49.43] helo=bluerondo) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bxy16-000687-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:16:29 -0700 Received: (qmail 928 invoked by uid 1002); 20 Aug 2004 01:16:26 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:16:26 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dan Langille Message-ID: <20040820011626.GA899@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Dan Langille , Charles Oppermann , "'Person, Roderick'" , 'Giorgos Keramidas' , 'David Kelly' , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040819160138.C5A696E6C8@smtp3.pacifier.net> <20040819205128.R39209@xeon.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040819205128.R39209@xeon.unixathome.org> X-Operating-System: DragonFly 1.1-CURRENT i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: 'Giorgos Keramidas' cc: 'David Kelly' cc: "'Person, Roderick'" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Charles Oppermann Subject: Re: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:16:29 -0000 Dan Langille said on Aug 19, 2004 at 20:51:41: > On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Charles Oppermann wrote: > > > << > > But, even when you change the defaults in Outlook, it still puts the cursor > > at the top of the reply or forward. It takes a lot of work to scroll to the > > bottom of a message.... > > >> > > Try Control-END. So the original complaint, that top-posted mails aren't read thoroughly, wasn't unique to top-posted mails: this same suggestion was made by Charles immediately below the lines you quote :) Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 01:21:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58BE416A4CE for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:21:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C65843D48 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:21:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from xeon (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94BB83D40; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:21:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:21:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@xeon.unixathome.org To: Rahul Siddharthan In-Reply-To: <20040820011626.GA899@online.fr> Message-ID: <20040819212103.E39209@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <20040819160138.C5A696E6C8@smtp3.pacifier.net> <20040819205128.R39209@xeon.unixathome.org> <20040820011626.GA899@online.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: 'Giorgos Keramidas' cc: 'David Kelly' cc: "'Person, Roderick'" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Charles Oppermann Subject: Re: Why top-posting is bad X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:21:29 -0000 On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Dan Langille said on Aug 19, 2004 at 20:51:41: > > On Thu, 19 Aug 2004, Charles Oppermann wrote: > > > > > << > > > But, even when you change the defaults in Outlook, it still puts the cursor > > > at the top of the reply or forward. It takes a lot of work to scroll to the > > > bottom of a message.... > > > >> > > > > Try Control-END. > > So the original complaint, that top-posted mails aren't read > thoroughly, wasn't unique to top-posted mails: this same suggestion > was made by Charles immediately below the lines you quote :) Excellant! More than one of us making the same suggestion. -- Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 01:31:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85BB916A4CE for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:31:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.bitfreak.org (mail.bitfreak.org [65.75.198.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4774843D77 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:31:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dmp@bitfreak.org) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (c-24-21-241-225.client.comcast.net [24.21.241.225]) by mail.bitfreak.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 970F72A41A; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spud (w0.techno.pagans [172.21.42.20]) by speck.techno.pagans (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD55C17029; Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:31:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Darren Pilgrim" To: , Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:31:46 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c48655$7804f730$142a15ac@spud> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: What annoys me more... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 01:31:59 -0000 From: John Murphy >=20 > What annoys me more than top-posting or html postings is the tendency > of MS email clients to horribly reformat quoted text so that odd words > appear on a line by themselves. >=20 > I've even seen it happen to original text when the poster hits CR at > some presumably inappropriate time. >=20 > Never used Outlook or Outlook Express myself but I get the impression > that what they see is NOT what they send. Outlook has a wrapping feature you can set in characters per line. The problem is that it isn't applied to the message until you click Send, so you won't know how it will actually look until it's too late to change it. Outlook XP and later have the ability to strip extra returns, but it screws up things like cut-and-pasted output text (imagine a dmesg output with all the line breaks replaced with single spaces). An errant CR in your message tends to do odd things to the wrapper as well. The wrapper and formatter for plaintext quoting need a lot of work. If you know what you're doing, though, you configure Outlook into a pretty solid email client with an amazing amount of organizational power. This was written in Outlook XP, btw. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 05:43:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E8116A4CE for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:43:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from graf.pompo.net (graf.pompo.net [81.56.186.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E0C343D48 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:43:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from thierry@pompo.net) Received: by graf.pompo.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6ABAC7636; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:38:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:38:38 +0200 From: Thierry Thomas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040820053838.GA28600@graf.pompo.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Face: (hRbQnK~Pt7$ct`!fupO(`y_WL4^-Iwn4@ly-.,[4xC4xc; y=\ipKMNm<1J>lv@PP~7Z<.t KjAnXLs: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.10-STABLE i386 Organization: Kabbale Eros X-PGP: 0xC71405A2 Subject: Re: What annoys me more... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:43:23 -0000 --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le Ven 20 ao=FB 04 =E0 1:57:26 +0200, John Murphy =E9crivait=A0: >=20 > What annoys me more than top-posting or html postings is the tendency > of MS email clients to horribly reformat quoted text so that odd words > appear on a line by themselves. If some of your correspondants are stuck with outlook, tell them to install OE-QuoteFix to fix this "feature": . --=20 Th. Thomas. --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBJY5ec95pjMcUBaIRAm8jAJ0VWBc8e2x+/nXH8SD2zcEMMb4/nwCfYB9I OvQi3OtFCdYap6RGlpPqwQY= =u7e8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 15:50:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A042D16A4DF for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:50:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (mail-in-01.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.41]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DAFA43D6B for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:50:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (dsl-213-023-052-043.arcor-ip.net [213.23.52.43]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4899151D5 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:50:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7KFoItP004955 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:50:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@kemoauc.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i7KFoHlg004954 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:50:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:50:16 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <20040819235032.GA40438@blossom.cjclark.org> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BugMeNot.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:50:29 -0000 Crist J. Clark wrote: > Anyone know what's happened to BugMeNot.com? Broken? Defaced? > Shut down? As seen on Boing Boing: http://www.boingboing.net/2004/08/19/what_happened_to_bug.html "Our host pulled the plug. I reckon they were pressured. If anyone has got some secure, preferably offshore hosting in mind then please let us know so we can get the service back up as soon as possible." -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 16:18:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D713516A4CE for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:18:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B930D43D2F for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:18:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from copper3 (ip168.gte250.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.250.168]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B3482712; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:18:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles Oppermann" To: "'Thierry Thomas'" , Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:18:44 -0700 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 thread-index: AcSGeLmGnugSS3wHR6+wMm950FDvYQAWJzxg In-Reply-To: <20040820053838.GA28600@graf.pompo.net> Message-Id: <20040820161842.15B3482712@smtp2.pacifier.net> Subject: RE: What annoys me more... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:18:44 -0000 >> If some of your correspondants are stuck with outlook, tell them to install OE-QuoteFix to fix this "feature": . << FYI, this is for Outlook Express, the mail and news program provided with Windows. Outlook is a different product entirely. Often times you'll see it abbreviated as OE and OL. More commonly OE6 and OL2003. Charles Oppermann, Copper Software http://weblogs.asp.net/chuckop/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 16:21:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9DE16A4D0 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:21:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD2C43D64 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:21:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from charles@coppersoftware.com) Received: from copper3 (ip168.gte250.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.250.168]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA5C6E3E5; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:21:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles Oppermann" To: "'Charles Oppermann'" , "'Thierry Thomas'" , Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:21:15 -0700 Organization: Copper Software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 thread-index: AcSGeLmGnugSS3wHR6+wMm950FDvYQAWJzxgAAAIq5A= In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <20040820162113.CDA5C6E3E5@smtp3.pacifier.net> Subject: RE: What annoys me more... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:21:15 -0000 >> >> If some of your correspondants are stuck with outlook, tell them to install OE-QuoteFix to fix this "feature": . << FYI, this is for Outlook Express, the mail and news program provided with Windows. Outlook is a different product entirely. Often times you'll see it abbreviated as OE and OL. More commonly OE6 and OL2003. << I spoke too quickly; there is an Outlook version available as well. The link is: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ Charles Oppermann, Copper Software http://weblogs.asp.net/chuckop/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 20 23:41:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40B6916A4CE for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:41:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B0A43D1D for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:41:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1ByJ0k-0004QQ-00; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:41:30 -0700 Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:41:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: tool for listing C functions used in source code? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:41:35 -0000 What are some good tools for searching source code that can list all the standard libc functions used? For example, I'd like to point it at some code and have it tell me that it uses: strftime 1 time isatty 1 setlocale 1 getuid 1 getbsize 5 strlen 25 et cetera Then I could see what the most used functions are for some research I am doing. Does anyone know of a tool that can do that? I am testing cscope, but it doesn't appear to behave like I want. I do like how it looks at the includes though. I don't want it to be interactive. I just want a list of all functions used. I can use sort and uniq to count if needed. Next I'll look at cflow. But I am not sure if does what I want either. Jeremy C. Reed BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 21 00:36:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDA216A4CE; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:36:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from cable-211-242.fibernet.bacs-net.hu (cable-211-242.fibernet.bacs-net.hu [195.56.211.242]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7388643D41; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:36:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Domainmtq@agusa.nuie.nagoya-u.ac.jp) Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message From: "Sammie Zehntner" To: owner-freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, owner-freebsd-isdn-digest@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org, jhb@freebsd.org, owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:29:44 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20040821003616.7388643D41@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-5545-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Fw:Impressive Replicas X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sammie Zehntner List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:36:21 -0000 Hi, Thank you for expressing interest in Genuine Replicas Watches. http://www.classreplica.com/index.php?ref=3Ddoubletime We would like to take this opportunity to introduce to you, our fine selection of Italian Crafted Rolex Time Pieces. http://www.classreplica.com/index.php?ref=3Ddoubletime (including Breitling, Tag Heuer, Cartier etc) at: http://www.classreplica.com/index.php?ref=3Ddoubletime As we are the direct manufacturers, you are assured of the lowest prices and highest quality each and every time you purchase from us. 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Send an email with the title heading:Delete to unsubscribe@classreplica.com=20 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 21 01:44:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3581A16A4CF for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:44:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD60943D3F for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:44:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from torstenvl@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 76so22719rnl for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.171.69 with SMTP id t69mr326672rne; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.73.7 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <126eac48040820184330a9c344@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:43:52 -0400 From: =?UTF-8?Q?Josh_=C5=8Cckert?= To: "Jeremy C. Reed" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tool for listing C functions used in source code? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: =?UTF-8?Q?Josh_=C5=8Cckert?= List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:44:01 -0000 On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:41:29 -0700 (PDT), Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > What are some good tools for searching source code that can list all the > standard libc functions used? > > For example, I'd like to point it at some code and have it tell me that it > uses: > > strftime 1 time > isatty 1 > setlocale 1 > getuid 1 > getbsize 5 > strlen 25 > et cetera > > Then I could see what the most used functions are for some research I am > doing. > > Does anyone know of a tool that can do that? > > I am testing cscope, but it doesn't appear to behave like I want. I do > like how it looks at the includes though. I don't want it to be > interactive. I just want a list of all functions used. I can use sort and > uniq to count if needed. > > Next I'll look at cflow. But I am not sure if does what I want either. > > Jeremy C. Reed > > BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links > http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > I would try something like.... for i in `ls /usr/share/man/man3/ | sed -e '/\\\..*$/d'`; do echo $i; grep -c $i filename.c; done in BASH That's untested, but try it. If you don't understand it, try man sed man grep From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 21 01:50:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4BC16A4CE for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:50:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A42243D31 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:50:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from torstenvl@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 76so22780rnl for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.126.1 with SMTP id y1mr326185rnc; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.73.7 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <126eac4804082018506944fcf6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:50:03 -0400 From: =?UTF-8?Q?Josh_=C5=8Cckert?= To: "Jeremy C. Reed" In-Reply-To: <126eac48040820184330a9c344@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable References: <126eac48040820184330a9c344@mail.gmail.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tool for listing C functions used in source code? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: =?UTF-8?Q?Josh_=C5=8Cckert?= List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:50:05 -0000 On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:43:52 -0400, Josh =C5=8Cckert = wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:41:29 -0700 (PDT), Jeremy C. Reed > wrote: > > What are some good tools for searching source code that can list all th= e > > standard libc functions used? > > > > For example, I'd like to point it at some code and have it tell me that= it > > uses: > > > > strftime 1 time > > isatty 1 > > setlocale 1 > > getuid 1 > > getbsize 5 > > strlen 25 > > et cetera > > > > Then I could see what the most used functions are for some research I a= m > > doing. > > > > Does anyone know of a tool that can do that? > > > > I am testing cscope, but it doesn't appear to behave like I want. I do > > like how it looks at the includes though. I don't want it to be > > interactive. I just want a list of all functions used. I can use sort a= nd > > uniq to count if needed. > > > > Next I'll look at cflow. But I am not sure if does what I want either. > > > > Jeremy C. Reed > > > > BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links > > http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > >=20 > I would try something like.... >=20 > for i in `ls /usr/share/man/man3/ | sed -e '/\\\..*$/d'`; do echo $i; > grep -c $i filename.c; done >=20 > in BASH >=20 > That's untested, but try it. If you don't understand it, try > man sed > man grep >=20 PS -- If you think you might use the same function more than once on a single line, you might want to replace all tokens that can separate two function calls with newlines and create a temporary file and then search that instead... I'm not sure if grep counts a line that matches twice as one match or two matches. Also, if you want only, say, ISO/ANSI C standard library functions to be counted, you'll have to provide your own list and use that instead of the listing of /usr/share/man/man3 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 21 04:30:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D126F16A4CE for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 04:30:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DA6E43D41 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 04:30:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1ByNWK-0004dN-00; Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:30:24 -0700 Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:30:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <126eac48040820184330a9c344@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Subject: Re: tool for listing C functions used in source code? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 04:30:29 -0000 On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, [UTF-8] Josh =C5=8Cckert wrote: > > What are some good tools for searching source code that can list all th= e > > standard libc functions used? > for i in `ls /usr/share/man/man3/ | sed -e '/\\\..*$/d'`; do echo $i; > grep -c $i filename.c; done Thank you for your ideas. Nevertheless, I am looking for a tool that actually parses the code and follows includes like cflow, cscope or cxref (which I still can't figure out yet). Your idea implies that the function used is accurately documented. Also it is missing a cut or sed to chop the ".3" off the end. Also, your idea could have many false positives due to matching partial function names. Also, it could match on code that is never used (because of C processor directives or in comments). By the time, I get a bunch of sed and grep to help organize it, it would be easier to find a program that already does it. > man sed > man grep I know sed and grep. Along with awk, they are my good friends :) Some things I have tried: cflows (I also packaged it for pkgsrc.) cflow /usr/src/bin/ls/*.c | egrep '{}$' | cut -f 3 But the output is missing getopt and printf and probably others. Also it shows functions that aren't shown in code (like clock(3)), but that is probably okay since they must be called by a function in the code. (I'd like it to tell me what functions are calling the other functions.) Any suggestions with cflow? I also tried cxref, like: cxref -xref-all -raw /usr/src/*bin/*/*c | grep ^Calls | grep -v ' : /' It appears to do a good job. I still need to figure out how to get it to do source that is in different directories while still outputting to one "-raw" standard output. Any examples for doing that? I also tried cscope, but I can't figure out how to get it to what I want. I do not want something interactive. And I don't want to manually have to run it numerous times to get my info. Any other suggestions? Jeremy C. Reed =09 =09 =09 technical support & remote administration =09 =09 =09 http://www.pugetsoundtechnology.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 21 07:22:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7973616A4CE for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 07:22:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mooseriver.com (h-66-166-146-73.snvacaid.covad.net [66.166.146.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D13943D1D for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 07:22:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: by mooseriver.com (Postfix, from userid 200) id CDF6B1704F; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:22:07 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040821072207.GA89453@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AhhlLboLdkugWU4S" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: Moose River, LLC Subject: Internet Cafe in Munich X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 07:22:10 -0000 --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a friend who is going to Munich Monday and he is looking for an Internet Cafe in Munich. One which good connectivity. Josef --=20 Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 5.2.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | Berkeley, Ca. --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFBJvgfy8prLS1GYSERArL7AKDieMTonU5ULHqVlLMXd95cJWgKiwCgx0zS WtUXee3swDi0WEJFYJf5z0U= =Ni1e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 21 10:08:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB0C16A4CF for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:08:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9111343D5C for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:08:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1BySnr-000HBP-88 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:08:51 +0100 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:08:51 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040821100851.GD30762@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Paul Robinson Subject: "just for the articles, dear..." X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:08:26 -0000 One of the more interesting (if incomplete - ISO only) FreeBSD mirrors I wasn't aware was out there, pointed out thanks to ntk.net: http://mirrors.playboy.com/ So does that mean anyone with a commit bit can get invites to the Playboy mansion? If so, there may be some fringe benefits to being actively involved in the project that don't appear to be in the documentation... :-) -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 21 14:16:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 711A916A4CE for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:16:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from server1.smokin.co.nz (server1.smokin.co.nz [65.19.129.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C40043D1F for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:16:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from viruswatch@smokin.co.nz) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=server1.smokin.co.nz) by server1.smokin.co.nz with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1ByBQw-000MNm-1S; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:36:02 +1200 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: abhishek@smokin.co.nz Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: Smokin, Ltd. Lite 3.64 - http://webbasedemail.com/ Message-Id: <20040821141630.5C40043D1F@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:16:30 +0000 (GMT) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Virus Worm.SomeFool.P detected in mail X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:16:30 -0000 --- The Smokin, Ltd. email system has detected a virus in a message delivered for abhishek@smokin.co.nz from the recipient freebsd-chat@freebsd.org. The email message that contained the Worm.SomeFool.P virus has been automatically deleted from the system. For additional information about the email service contact the Administrator webmaster@smokin.co.nz ---- Msg sent via Smokin, Ltd. - http://www.smokin.co.nz/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 21 14:41:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60E6616A4CE for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:41:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF8D43D2D for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:41:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from torstenvl@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 77so29022rnl for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 07:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.99.64 with SMTP id w64mr464952rnb; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 07:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.73.7 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 07:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <126eac480408210741323f9d16@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:41:11 -0400 From: =?UTF-8?Q?Josh_=C5=8Cckert?= To: "Jeremy C. Reed" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable References: cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tool for listing C functions used in source code? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: =?UTF-8?Q?Josh_=C5=8Cckert?= List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:41:12 -0000 On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:30:24 -0700 (PDT), Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, [UTF-8] Josh =C5=8Cckert wrote: >=20 > > > What are some good tools for searching source code that can list all = the > > > standard libc functions used? >=20 > > for i in `ls /usr/share/man/man3/ | sed -e '/\\\..*$/d'`; do echo $i; > > grep -c $i filename.c; done >=20 > Thank you for your ideas. Nevertheless, I am looking for a tool that > actually parses the code and follows includes like cflow, cscope or cxref > (which I still can't figure out yet). >=20 > Your idea implies that the function used is accurately documented. Also i= t > is missing a cut or sed to chop the ".3" off the end. Also, your idea > could have many false positives due to matching partial function names. > Also, it could match on code that is never used (because of C processor > directives or in comments). By the time, I get a bunch of sed and grep to > help organize it, it would be easier to find a program that already does > it. >=20 > > man sed > > man grep >=20 > I know sed and grep. Along with awk, they are my good friends :) >=20 > Some things I have tried: >=20 > cflows (I also packaged it for pkgsrc.) >=20 > cflow /usr/src/bin/ls/*.c | egrep '{}$' | cut -f 3 >=20 > But the output is missing getopt and printf and probably others. Also it > shows functions that aren't shown in code (like clock(3)), but that is > probably okay since they must be called by a function in the code. (I'd > like it to tell me what functions are calling the other functions.) Any > suggestions with cflow? >=20 > I also tried cxref, like: >=20 > cxref -xref-all -raw /usr/src/*bin/*/*c | grep ^Calls | grep -v ' : /' >=20 > It appears to do a good job. I still need to figure out how to get it to > do source that is in different directories while still outputting to one > "-raw" standard output. Any examples for doing that? >=20 > I also tried cscope, but I can't figure out how to get it to what I want. > I do not want something interactive. And I don't want to manually have to > run it numerous times to get my info. >=20 > Any other suggestions? >=20 > Jeremy C. Reed >=20 > technical support & remote administration > http://www.pugetsoundtechnology.com/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 Your original post said 'used' -- this is kind of ambiguous. Since the call to clock() seemed okay but you complained about dead code being counted, I'll assume you mean 'called, directly or indirectly'. The problem with this is that the program would have to know the internal implementations of standard library functions when it scans the source code, or it would have to scan the binary. I don't know how to accomplish either of these ends personally (perhaps your cflow or whatever will work for you?). However, if you only want things that your code calls directly, your criticisms are unfounded. > Your idea implies that the function used is accurately documented. If it's in libc, it should be documented. > Also it > is missing a cut or sed to chop the ".3" off the end. Uhhh... really? . o O ( sed -e '/\\\..*$/d' ) > Also, your idea > could have many false positives due to matching partial function names. "you might want to replace all tokens that can separate two function calls with newlines and create a temporary file and then search that instead" Extend that a bit further and replace all whitespace with newlines, then delete newlines, then put any operators that aren't on a line by themselves on a line by themselves... If you separated out all the tokens in the code you could then check the whole line, something like ^$i\$ or whatever the syntactic mess necessary to accomplish that is. Then it would match the entire function name or not at all. > Also, it could match on code that is never used (because of C processor > directives or in comments). So uh... run the C processor err umm preprocessor on the code first... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 21 14:54:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB54316A4CE for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:54:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (mail-in-05.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 050B843D31 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:54:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (dsl-213-023-059-188.arcor-ip.net [213.23.59.188]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892B51C9E5 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:54:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7LEsDPH040607 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:54:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@kemoauc.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i7LEsD6F040606 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:54:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:54:12 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <20040819235032.GA40438@blossom.cjclark.org> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BugMeNot.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:54:17 -0000 Crist J. Clark wrote: > Anyone know what's happened to BugMeNot.com? Broken? Defaced? > Shut down? They're back up. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 21 16:49:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7AE16A4CE for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:49:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E6B43D45 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:49:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from dwp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22D0368C; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:50:07 +0200 (MEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 57F93B873; Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:49:31 +0200 (CEST) To: Paul Robinson References: <20040821100851.GD30762@iconoplex.co.uk> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:49:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20040821100851.GD30762@iconoplex.co.uk> (Paul Robinson's message of "Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:08:51 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "just for the articles, dear..." X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:49:33 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > One of the more interesting (if incomplete - ISO only) FreeBSD mirrors I > wasn't aware was out there, pointed out thanks to ntk.net: > > http://mirrors.playboy.com/ Even better - http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=3Dmirrors.playboy.com DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no