From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 18 21:29:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C70716A4CF for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:29:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtprelay03.ispgateway.de (smtprelay03.ispgateway.de [62.67.200.164]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 583F943D41 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:29:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mail@synchron.org) Received: (qmail 8488 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2004 21:29:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO p508AFD5A.dip.t-dialin.net) ([pbs]668125@[80.138.253.90]) (envelope-sender ) by smtprelay03.ispgateway.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Oct 2004 21:29:26 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:34:08 +0200 From: Andi Scharfstein X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andi Scharfstein List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:29:29 -0000 Hi, de-lurking for a bit... this might be a little OT even for -chat, but considering that my recent decision to buy a powerbook was motivated in not a small part by the knowledge that many people on this list (whose technical knowlegde I highly respect) seem to possess one, too, I was wondering if there was any advice you'd want to give an Apple newbie. I'm especially interested in those small tweaks you use to make your daily life with the laptop more convenient, so I guess my question could be framed like this: "When you get your hands on a new powerbook, what are the first things you'd install, fix or change?" Any pointers will be appreciated, websites, where to get the latest working Emacs installation, whatever strikes you as worth mentioning. Thanks a lot in advance, and looking forward to your answers :) -- Bye: Andi S. mailto:mail@synchron.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 18 22:06:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2CF16A4CE for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:06:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BC2143D5D for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:06:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CJfg2-000Gue-KO; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:08:26 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:08:26 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Andi Scharfstein Message-ID: <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:06:50 -0000 On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 11:34:08PM +0200, Andi Scharfstein wrote: > I was wondering if there was any advice you'd want to give an Apple > newbie. Yes, of course. My advice is that you sell your over-priced fashion-victim toy with it's Fisher Price Unix installed, and use the money instead to buy yourself a top of the range Thinkpad. It will outperform it, run FreeBSD, not look out of fashion next season, has been built by a company that is truly committed to the open source movement and whose execs don't patronise you by assuming you travel to work on a skateboard in cargo pants or worse, pander to your girlfriend's idea of what a computer should be. In addition, you'll be able to easily and cheaply upgrade parts of your laptop, built as it is on commodity hardware with 3rd-party suppliers being plentiful. You'll find either the manufacturer's support much better than Apple's, alternatively you won't have to travel 300 miles to find your "local" dealer as pretty much any computer store in the country will be able to carry out any repairs you need. Spares will be cheaper, labour will be cheaper, and you will not be without your laptop for 3 months whilst a replacement TFT screen sits on a boat from Korea slowly plodding it's way to you, thanks to a ridiculous spares and repairs policy. In addition, you won't be contributing to the "brain drain" that Apple has caused on the Open Source movement, will understand more about how your computer works as a result, and won't spend half your working day fighting bouncing icons, "helpful" software that constantly tries to break into every WAP point within range and a user interface that was specifically designed to be helpful to 5-year olds and your technophobic mother. You'll instead get to use an OS and an interface designed for somebody who understands computers, not have to put up with one that assumes you are a 6th-grader with learning difficulties. Plus, brilliantly, people won't point at you and laugh when you get your laptop out on a plane or in a cybercafe for spending thousands of dollars on a laptop that isn't as powerful as Intel-based competitors just because you think it "looks neat". You will be considered by your peers to be a man instead of a boy, a leader instead of a follower, and you won't get any more snide e-mails like this when you post to a FreeBSD list for help with your hardware. Hope that helps. Sorry it was you that suffered my rant on Apple kit, but you are, to my knowledge, the first in a while. I will now don the fireproof suit. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 18 22:30:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3054916A4CE for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:30:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtprelay03.ispgateway.de (smtprelay03.ispgateway.de [62.67.200.164]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4144C43D39 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:30:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mail@synchron.org) Received: (qmail 13022 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2004 22:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO p508AFD5A.dip.t-dialin.net) ([pbs]668125@[80.138.253.90]) (envelope-sender ) by smtprelay03.ispgateway.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Oct 2004 22:30:21 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:34:54 +0200 From: Andi Scharfstein X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <629881904.20041019003454@synchron.org> To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andi Scharfstein List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:30:26 -0000 Hi, >> I was wondering if there was any advice you'd want to give an Apple >> newbie. -snip rant- > Sorry it was you that suffered my rant on Apple kit, but you are, to > my knowledge, the first in a while. Heh, that's good to know. Well, obviously I don't fully agree with your criticism, but I think that skipping over the polemics there is the valid point in your post that I shouldn't have posed a hardware-related question on this particular list. For this, I apologize and hope that my post will not have inadvertently caused a flame war here. -- Thanks for your time, Andi S. mailto:mail@synchron.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 18 23:21:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A06416A4CE for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:21:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pd3mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 648C243D1D for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:21:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flowers@users.sourceforge.net) Received: from pd3mr4so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr4so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.180]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I5S00B83ZJ89G50@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:21:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml3so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.147]) by pd3mr4so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I5S00ITHZJ8F910@pd3mr4so.prod.shaw.ca> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:21:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sirius (S0106000c41b2b9a3.cg.shawcable.net [68.144.45.143]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with SMTP id <0I5S00L4PZJ8XY@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:21:08 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:21:19 -0600 From: Dan MacMillan In-reply-to: <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> To: Andi Scharfstein Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal cc: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:21:20 -0000 From: Paul Robinson > On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 11:34:08PM +0200, Andi Scharfstein wrote: > > I was wondering if there was any advice you'd want to give an Apple > > newbie. > > Yes, of course. My advice is that you sell your over-priced > ... You'll have to forgive Paul. One day, when he was a kid, a PowerBook beat up his dad. -- Danny From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 18 23:33:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 950F116A4CE for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:33:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtprelay01.ispgateway.de (smtprelay01.ispgateway.de [62.67.200.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAE7F43D1D for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:33:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mail@synchron.org) Received: (qmail 10635 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2004 23:33:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO p508AFD5A.dip.t-dialin.net) ([pbs]668125@[80.138.253.90]) (envelope-sender ) by smtprelay01.ispgateway.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Oct 2004 23:33:15 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 01:37:54 +0200 From: Andi Scharfstein X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.0.1.33) Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <29702817.20041019013754@synchron.org> To: Dan MacMillan In-Reply-To: References: <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andi Scharfstein List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:33:18 -0000 Hi, > You'll have to forgive Paul. One day, when he was a kid, a PowerBook beat > up his dad. Ahh... I *thought* I detected a hint of emotional involvement in his mail, this of course would certainly explain it. -- Bye: Andi S. mailto:mail@synchron.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 18 23:40:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C8AB16A50A for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:40:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5F143D2D for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:40:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net (unverified [24.119.122.25]) by smail2.cableone.net (SurgeMail 1.9b) with ESMTP id 22467364 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:39:42 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:40:16 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12b (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.10) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com Subject: learning c++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:40:57 -0000 Any one know of any good guides to learning C++, specifically in regards to the newer gcc? Currently been messing with it a bit, but I am figuring that I am doing something wrong... been messing with learning strings and the like and I am getting a a.out that has a obscene size... 142kB in size... Any ideas or good suggestions for stuff to read on the net? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 18 23:44:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1291B16A4CE for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:44:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from splinter.bowdoin.edu (rocksteady.bowdoin.edu [139.140.34.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8DEF43D1D for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:44:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from alec@thened.net) Received: by splinter.bowdoin.edu (Postfix, from userid 12008) id 9515718C9; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:42:37 -0400 From: Alec Berryman To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041018234237.GA30820@thened.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> X-Ned-Wuz-Here: Yes X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 with kernel 2.6.7-1-686 X-GPG-Fingerprint: 3DB5 8785 53D9 8BF4 5049 B6B9 02E7 7FD9 881C 85C4 X-GPG-Key: http://www.thened.net/~alec/static/alec.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i Subject: Re: learning c++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:44:07 -0000 --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline begin quotation of Vulpes Velox on 2004-10-18 18:40:16 -0500: > Currently been messing with it a bit, but I am figuring that I am > doing something wrong... been messing with learning strings and the > like and I am getting a a.out that has a obscene size... 142kB in > size... Not a suggestion on where to learn, but only a note that g++ is not the greatest C++ compiler. C code compiled with it is measurably slower and larger than the equivalent compiled by gcc, so I hear. --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBdFTtAud/2YgchcQRAumEAJ9WYFkUm/dbuWOUAfbfTH5dOpg2RACeLbr+ cmRG/56VLANr4CpAPtYAIo4= =4leq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 18 23:50:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47DF416A4CE for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:50:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nic.ach.sch.gr (nic.sch.gr [194.63.238.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B17B43D31 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:50:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 13303 invoked by uid 207); 18 Oct 2004 23:50:07 -0000 Received: from keramida@freebsd.org by nic by uid 201 with qmail-scanner-1.21 (sophie: 3.04/2.19/3.81. Clear:RC:1(81.186.70.65):. Processed in 0.759375 secs); 18 Oct 2004 23:50:07 -0000 Received: from dialup65.ach.sch.gr (HELO gothmog.gr) ([81.186.70.65]) (envelope-sender ) by nic.sch.gr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 18 Oct 2004 23:50:06 -0000 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id i9INo2YK003382; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:50:02 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id i9INo2ro003379; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:50:02 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:50:01 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Vulpes Velox Message-ID: <20041018235001.GA99564@gothmog.gr> References: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: learning c++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:50:10 -0000 On 2004-10-18 18:40, Vulpes Velox wrote: > Any one know of any good guides to learning C++, specifically in > regards to the newer gcc? > > Currently been messing with it a bit, but I am figuring that I am > doing something wrong... been messing with learning strings and the > like and I am getting a a.out that has a obscene size... 142kB in > size... Is your executable dynamically or statically linked? The following small C++ program builds into an a.out file of about 6 Kb, which is rather small -- certainly not hundreds of kilobytes. 1 #include 2 #include 3 4 using namespace std; 5 6 int 7 main(void) 8 { 9 cout << "Hello C++ world" << endl; 10 return (0); 11 } giorgos@gothmog[02:45]/home/giorgos$ c++ -W -Wall hello.cc giorgos@gothmog[02:46]/home/giorgos$ ls -l a.out -rwxrwxr-x 1 giorgos giorgos 6952 Oct 19 02:46 a.out giorgos@gothmog[02:46]/home/giorgos$ ./a.out Hello C++ world giorgos@gothmog[02:46]/home/giorgos$ ldd a.out a.out: libstdc++.so.4 => /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.4 (0x28075000) libm.so.3 => /lib/libm.so.3 (0x28147000) libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x28161000) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 18 23:51:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F23216A4CE for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:51:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.knology.net (smtp.knology.net [24.214.63.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B2FD843D1D for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:51:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 11437 invoked by uid 0); 18 Oct 2004 23:51:48 -0000 Received: from user-69-73-60-132.knology.net (HELO ?10.0.0.68?) (69.73.60.132) by smtp1.knology.net with SMTP; 18 Oct 2004 23:51:48 -0000 In-Reply-To: <629881904.20041019003454@synchron.org> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> <629881904.20041019003454@synchron.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <9E193DE6-2160-11D9-8F99-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Kelly Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:51:23 -0500 To: Andi Scharfstein X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:51:29 -0000 On Oct 18, 2004, at 5:34 PM, Andi Scharfstein wrote: >> Sorry it was you that suffered my rant on Apple kit, but you are, to >> my knowledge, the first in a while. > > Heh, that's good to know. Well, obviously I don't fully agree with > your criticism, but I think that skipping over the polemics there is > the valid point in your post that I shouldn't have posed a > hardware-related question on this particular list. For this, I > apologize and hope that my post will not have inadvertently caused a > flame war here. Some are simply jealous that Apple was able to pull off such a coup. Who ever thought my *mother* would be able to use a Unix machine? Even more amazing is my father uses their iMac too. Keep in mind MacOS X's primary tuning focus is to support one user on a GUI. At least the non-server version isn't going to be a great ftp or web server, but the application(s) is(are) there and they do work as much the same as with any other Unix. You won't find any other OS which requires less fiddling than MacOS X. If it doesn't employ MSCE's then IT departments will not allow it. As for "tweaks?" I like the Dock on the right side of the screen. Select a screen blanker of your liking. In an odd non-Apple twist the screen blanker is not under Energy or Screens control panels, but has its own "Desktop & Screen Saver" control. Be sure to set the "Hot Corners" that you may park your mouse in a corner to either launch the screen saver instantly or disable it. I like 11 or 12 point Monoco in Terminal.app and Mail.app. Forgot what those default to. And be sure in Mail.app preferences to set "Plain Text" under Composing. Paul Robinson is incorrect re: 3rd party hardware. I purchased a Toshiba 60G HD from my local PC Clone Store. Only needed a Torx #8 or #9 screwdriver to install. MacOS X install CD had no qualms about formatting it for me. Powerbook memory is no more special or unique than any other laptop memory. Laptop CD/DVD drives are unique to each brand/model. I have 3 different off-the-shelf EIDE HD's in my desktop G4. Slipped right in the existing brackets. Apple even thought to put screws in the bracket for use to hold the future HD. When my Dell PowerEdge 400SC arrived with one 128MB memory DIMM I ordered a gigabyte from Crucial. Because memory is dual-channel in the 400SC the single 128M part was surplus. It works very well in my G4 desktop. My Logitech USB/PS2 optical wheel mouse works perfectly. No drivers. Nothing special, just plug it in. The wheel scrolls. Click the wheel in Safari (web browser) and the link opens in new window. Right click is same as Control-left click. An Intel 10/100 card previously used with the fxp device in FreeBSD dropped right into my desktop G4 and works perfectly. Using it for this email. This G4 has gigabit ethernet, and so does the Dell. Rather than purchase a gigabit switch I put spare fxp cards in the Mac and Dell and cabled the Dell and Mac gigabit directly. Macintosh gigabit ethernet ports are cable-sensing so a normal non-crossed cable worked perfectly. The Mac and Dell (FreeBSD 5.3-something) ftp files to each other at disk speeds, often 50 MB/sec. BBEdit is a cool example of how Mac developers (and users) Think Different. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 18 23:55:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E9E16A4CE for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:55:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F98443D5E for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:55:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mymuss@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 74so265688rnk for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:55:32 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=FS7fIMIfHTuvuHZngX5mLMJZxH+RDxJlEGjgn+vl9hbEHBOmQYJy6J6lCxL2ITcZA0GFN5GStWZC0sJvDGRLQ2c9VL9Pyg89I9JBpbPZGwuVDk/HoHa+bF+hsOkTuteqFeR2ORTVbz3mJ5ZVVQnRpT6i7xWn+n3esJR6R3qCfE8 Received: by 10.39.1.26 with SMTP id d26mr1684534rni; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.72.20 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:55:32 +0300 From: Andrew Novikov To: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> Subject: Re: learning c++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andrew Novikov List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:55:33 -0000 Hello Vulpes, On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:40:16 -0500, Vulpes Velox wrote: > Any one know of any good guides to learning C++, specifically in > regards to the newer gcc? 1) Kernigan, Ritchie "C Programming Language" (Yes, I know it's quite old. Yes, I know C != C++ but this is a must-read-book) 2) Brian Stroustrup "The C++ Programming Language" (however I wouldn't recommned this book as an intro to C++) 3) Stan Lippman, Josie Lajoie "C++ Primer" 4) Bruce Eckel "Thinking in C++" (this one available online for free, search in google) > > Currently been messing with it a bit, but I am figuring that I am > doing something wrong... been messing with learning strings and the > like and I am getting a a.out that has a obscene size... 142kB in > size... It's normal for g++ :) -- Sincerely, Andrew From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 00:16:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE88C16A4CE; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:16:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586FA43D3F; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:16:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net (unverified [24.119.122.25]) by smail2.cableone.net (SurgeMail 1.9b) with ESMTP id 22471841 for multiple; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:15:34 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:16:07 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Giorgos Keramidas Message-ID: <20041018191607.261208c5@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> In-Reply-To: <20041018235001.GA99564@gothmog.gr> References: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> <20041018235001.GA99564@gothmog.gr> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12b (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.10) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: learning c++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:16:45 -0000 On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:50:01 +0300 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2004-10-18 18:40, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > Any one know of any good guides to learning C++, specifically in > > regards to the newer gcc? > > > > Currently been messing with it a bit, but I am figuring that I am > > doing something wrong... been messing with learning strings and > > the like and I am getting a a.out that has a obscene size... 142kB > > in size... > > Is your executable dynamically or statically linked? The following > small C++ program builds into an a.out file of about 6 Kb, which is > rather small -- certainly not hundreds of kilobytes. > > 1 #include > 2 #include > 3 > 4 using namespace std; > 5 > 6 int > 7 main(void) > 8 { > 9 cout << "Hello C++ world" << endl; > 10 return (0); > 11 } > giorgos@gothmog[02:45]/home/giorgos$ c++ -W -Wall hello.cc > giorgos@gothmog[02:46]/home/giorgos$ ls -l a.out > -rwxrwxr-x 1 giorgos giorgos 6952 Oct 19 02:46 a.out > giorgos@gothmog[02:46]/home/giorgos$ ./a.out > Hello C++ world > giorgos@gothmog[02:46]/home/giorgos$ ldd a.out > a.out: > libstdc++.so.4 => /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.4 (0x28075000) > libm.so.3 => /lib/libm.so.3 (0x28147000) > libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x28161000) If this is using 2.95, it is not surprising, but I don't get any thing like this what so ever using c++34. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 00:18:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E0D16A4CE for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:18:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C53D543D1F for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:18:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mymuss@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 74so267379rnk for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:18:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=P1q2tqoWLP86axyNU1vtr/4M0U2JFA3vIQ0rCqwOO3P3yfegoB6vV+lOF7AA+9gtUhskYzsqlY4qy/NuQR+DVoEZVbmq5gAq7PcefzB7m3JlttlG7BsguxyXe8FlRAdtpkaJ+cYEzDDhc2lx3qM/3oQKQTpC/HjU3aLsMd2ch3U Received: by 10.38.208.34 with SMTP id f34mr1696366rng; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.72.20 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:18:30 +0300 From: Andrew Novikov To: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200410190001.i9J010wn005940@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200410190001.i9J010wn005940@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Subject: Re: learning c++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andrew Novikov List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:18:48 -0000 Hello. On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:01:00 -0700 (PDT), David Wolfskill wrote: > >Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:55:32 +0300 > >From: Andrew Novikov > > >2) Brian Stroustrup "The C++ Programming Language" (however I wouldn't > >recommned this book as an intro to C++) > > That would be "Bjarne" Stroustrup. :-} > (Brian would would be Kernighan, I suppose....) Yes, my mistake, sorry :) -- Sincerely, Andrew From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 02:47:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D201616A4CE; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:47:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B99843D5A; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:47:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net (unverified [24.119.122.25]) by smail2.cableone.net (SurgeMail 1.9b) with ESMTP id 22490726 for multiple; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:46:06 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:46:40 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Giorgos Keramidas Message-ID: <20041018214640.6d110a53@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> In-Reply-To: <20041018235001.GA99564@gothmog.gr> References: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> <20041018235001.GA99564@gothmog.gr> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12b (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.10) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: learning c++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:47:19 -0000 On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:50:01 +0300 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2004-10-18 18:40, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > Any one know of any good guides to learning C++, specifically in > > regards to the newer gcc? > > > > Currently been messing with it a bit, but I am figuring that I am > > doing something wrong... been messing with learning strings and > > the like and I am getting a a.out that has a obscene size... 142kB > > in size... > > Is your executable dynamically or statically linked? The following > small C++ program builds into an a.out file of about 6 Kb, which is > rather small -- certainly not hundreds of kilobytes. > > 1 #include > 2 #include > 3 > 4 using namespace std; > 5 > 6 int > 7 main(void) > 8 { > 9 cout << "Hello C++ world" << endl; > 10 return (0); > 11 } > giorgos@gothmog[02:45]/home/giorgos$ c++ -W -Wall hello.cc > giorgos@gothmog[02:46]/home/giorgos$ ls -l a.out > -rwxrwxr-x 1 giorgos giorgos 6952 Oct 19 02:46 a.out > giorgos@gothmog[02:46]/home/giorgos$ ./a.out > Hello C++ world > giorgos@gothmog[02:46]/home/giorgos$ ldd a.out > a.out: > libstdc++.so.4 => /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.4 (0x28075000) > libm.so.3 => /lib/libm.so.3 (0x28147000) > libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x28161000) Managed to get it down to 248448, which appears to be the smallest size I can manage to generate with c++... any ideas? btw if it makes a difference, I am running 4stable From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 03:05:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C112A16A5C1 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:05:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EEC843D58 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:05:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (qmail 9204 invoked from network); 19 Oct 2004 03:05:24 -0000 Received: from dsl027-160-063.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) encrypted SMTP for ; 19 Oct 2004 03:05:23 -0000 Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (zion.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.7]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9J35KFq043361 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:05:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zion.baldwin.cx (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9J35K8h000972 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:05:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@zion.baldwin.cx) Received: by zion.baldwin.cx (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i9J35Kmm000971 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:05:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:29:07 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200410182229.07373.jhb@FreeBSD.org> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on server.baldwin.cx Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:05:39 -0000 On Monday 18 October 2004 06:08 pm, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 11:34:08PM +0200, Andi Scharfstein wrote: > > I was wondering if there was any advice you'd want to give an Apple > > newbie. FWIW, I'm reading and replying to this e-mail via kmail running over an X11 ssh tunnel on my powerbook. My Dell laptop just about falls apart in my hands now due to cheaper construction and cannot be safely used as a mobile machine anymore. This powerbook, OTOH, seems to be the best constructed notebook I've ever used. (My newer PC laptop from Alienware is also starting to show some physical stress fractures and what not and it's the same age as the powerbook.) The powerbook is also much lighter than my "luggables" while mostly giving me what I want most out of my "luggables": screen real estate. The only downside is that the built-in 802.11b antennae are noticeably shielded by the frame. As far as OS X goes, it's handling of multiple displays (like TV out or VGA out plus LCD) is phenomenal and very intuitive. The power management is also quite good and actually works. (The BIOSen on both of my PC laptops is busted such that they report capacity but don't properly report the usage and charge rates so I never get remaining battery time in FreeBSD.) Also, suspend/resume just works. As far as the "brain drain" claim: I'd be very careful what you say about that. One of the biggest "drains" has probably been Mike Smith. However, he still participates in side conversations every once in a while and still shows up for the occasional conference in which he still provides excellent input. Also, FWIW, if it weren't for Mike (and a few others) talking me into coming out to California to give WC/BSDi a try, I would probably have spent the last few years working on industrial monitoring embedded systems instead of the FreeBSD kernel. Granted, if I weren't around the work would still have gotten done, but I think its a fair statement that my (and others') current contributions are due at least in part to Mike, Jordan, and others. Also, Apple has given back to the BSDs. Their modifications to existing BSD code have been released under the BSD license resulting in bug fixes to msdosfs and smbfs for example being merged back into FreeBSD. There is lots more in Darwin for enterprising individuals to merge back if they wish as well. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 05:24:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2560616A4CE for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 05:24:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B42B743D5C for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 05:24:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net (unverified [24.119.122.25]) by smail2.cableone.net (SurgeMail 1.9b) with ESMTP id 22506795 for multiple; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:23:43 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:24:08 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Vulpes Velox Message-ID: <20041019002408.5e3b000a@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> In-Reply-To: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> References: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12b (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.10) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: learning c++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 05:24:57 -0000 On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:40:16 -0500 Vulpes Velox wrote: > Any one know of any good guides to learning C++, specifically in > regards to the newer gcc? > > Currently been messing with it a bit, but I am figuring that I am > doing something wrong... been messing with learning strings and the > like and I am getting a a.out that has a obscene size... 142kB in > size... > > Any ideas or good suggestions for stuff to read on the net? Figured out what was happening finally... turns out it has to do with what version 4x is built with... I get a small binary on 5x :) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 07:32:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B3C016A4CE for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:32:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kane.otenet.gr (kane.otenet.gr [195.170.0.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC51043D1F for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:32:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b139.otenet.gr [212.205.244.147]) i9J7Wcis019192; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:32:43 +0300 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id i9JAWVAV000993; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:32:31 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id i9JAWVkp000992; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:32:31 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:32:31 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Vulpes Velox Message-ID: <20041019103230.GA641@gothmog.gr> References: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> <20041018235001.GA99564@gothmog.gr> <20041018214640.6d110a53@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041018214640.6d110a53@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: learning c++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:32:46 -0000 On 2004-10-18 21:46, Vulpes Velox wrote: > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:50:01 +0300 > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > On 2004-10-18 18:40, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > > been messing with learning strings and the like and I am getting a > > > a.out that has a obscene size... 142kB in size... > > > > Is your executable dynamically or statically linked? > > Managed to get it down to 248448, which appears to be the smallest > size I can manage to generate with c++... any ideas? > > btw if it makes a difference, I am running 4stable I'm running gcc version 3.4.2 [FreeBSD] 20040728 from 6.0-CURRENT, so you might be getting different results because of the differences of gcc 3.4.x running on -STABLE. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 09:08:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C6016A4D3 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:08:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 9.hellooperator.net (cpc3-cdif2-3-0-cust202.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.103.32.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A72943D46 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:08:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rasputin@hellooperator.net) Received: from rasputin by 9.hellooperator.net with local (Exim 4.43) id 1CJpzB-0006Dw-N9 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:08:53 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:08:53 +0100 From: Dick Davies To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041019090853.GE2967@lb.tenfour> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: Rasputin Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dick Davies List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:08:59 -0000 * Paul Robinson [1006 23:06]: > On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 11:34:08PM +0200, Andi Scharfstein wrote: > > > I was wondering if there was any advice you'd want to give an Apple > > newbie. > > Yes, of course. My advice is that you sell your over-priced > fashion-victim toy with it's Fisher Price Unix installed, and use the > money instead to buy yourself a top of the range Thinkpad . Panther is the best UNIX I've seen in a long time. I cant' think of anything I need it to do that it has trouble with, and the bundled apps are surprisingly unshitty. RAID, crypted filesystems and IPSEC are all a doddle to setup with a few mouse clicks and it is UNIX enough to interoperate with all my BSD kit without a grumble. For anything with quirks there are now enough OpenSource developers using it that someone has usually ported or homegrown something for it (subversion support in the Finder being a big win for me). And there are a good few OSX apps that once you've used you'll really miss on other OSes (off the top of my head: Mail is amazingly the least crappy GUI mail app I've ever seen, Quicksilver is very RSI friendly, and the Confabulator saves you buying a second monitor). Oh, and SCUMMVM works out of the box on it, as opposed to current where I have spent three nights so far trying to coax SDL out of its cage with a lump of raw meat. So I finally get to kick Purple Tentacles ass. *Laptop* wise I'd agree with the price issues (although it's worth comparing like for like - I got a 1000 quid centrino laptop from work lately and while it's nice and lightweight with good battery life it is built with various flaky hardware that I've wasted a good couple of weeks sysctling my way around, and the fan is ridiculously noisy). I got an eMac for 550 quid direct from Apple last month and it's the best value computer I've ever bought. GarageBand, while having the gayest name of any software ever (I'd be happy to take other opinions onboard here) has a shitload of amp emulation built in that means my girl can try out amps with her new guitar without having to endure the pimply wankers at our local Richer Sounds. With any luck she will do with a software amp in which case the Mac has already paid for itself. > you won't get any more snide e-mails like this when you post to a > FreeBSD list for help with your hardware. 'Ridicule is nothing to be scared of', as a man with a stripe painted across his face once said :) -- Oh how awful. Did he at least die peacefully? [pause] To shreds you say, tsk tsk tsk. Well, how's his wife holding up? [pause] To shreds, you say... - Prof. Farnsworth Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 10:03:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA4B216A4CE for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:03:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2747443D5A for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:03:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CJqrJ-000Mpy-B0; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:04:49 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:04:49 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: David Kelly Message-ID: <20041019100449.GH42527@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> <629881904.20041019003454@synchron.org> <9E193DE6-2160-11D9-8F99-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9E193DE6-2160-11D9-8F99-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:03:12 -0000 On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 06:51:23PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > Some are simply jealous that Apple was able to pull off such a coup. > Who ever thought my *mother* would be able to use a Unix machine? My mother, step-father and elder sister, all computer illiterate do just fine on laptops with FreeBSD + KDE installed. If they need something installing or changing, I can normally talk them through it, or ssh into the laptops and do it for them. I don't see why anybody else should have problems with any other parents or computer-illiterate people. Plus, Mac OS X is barely Unix. If it is, it's the Fisher Price version. It's like needing a pair of scissors, and somebody handing you a really blunt pair like the ones you got in 3rd-grade. > You won't find any other OS which requires less fiddling than MacOS X. > If it doesn't employ MSCE's then IT departments will not allow it. You're on the FreeBSD list. Think FreeBSD requires "too much fiddling"? You know what to do don't you? Ahhh, but you want the easy way out. And to get there, you're prepared to pay 30-60% over the odds for a badly built laptop relative to many of its competitors with a poor support chain behind it. I pity you. > Paul Robinson is incorrect re: 3rd party hardware. I purchased a > Toshiba 60G HD from my local PC Clone Store. Only needed a Torx #8 or > #9 screwdriver to install. MacOS X install CD had no qualms about > formatting it for me. Powerbook memory is no more special or unique > than any other laptop memory. Laptop CD/DVD drives are unique to each > brand/model. Try and get your screen replaced. Try and get the motherboard replaced. Try and get an extra battery for it. Do all of these without talking to Apple or an Apple-reseller who will end up talking to Apple on your behalf. Hard drives and RAM are easy. Try something a bit tougher. I used to be a Tech Director of an Apple reseller. I am speaking out of experience, not spite. Actually, working for an Apple reseller/dealer soon fills you with spite, but you users probably won't get to that stage for at least another 2-3 years yet. > BBEdit is a cool example of how Mac developers (and users) Think > Different. Oh, FFS. Yes, you're right. You pay $179 plus sales tax for an editor that is a bit like the GPL cream extension for gvim. That is EXACTLY how Apple users "think different". You pay for software others are giving away better alternatives for, for free. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in different ways; the point, however, is to change it." - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 10:19:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC43A16A4CE; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:19:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C67943D2D; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:19:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CJr7I-000N5H-RG; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:21:20 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:21:20 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: John Baldwin Message-ID: <20041019102120.GI42527@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> <200410182229.07373.jhb@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200410182229.07373.jhb@FreeBSD.org> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:19:40 -0000 On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 10:29:07PM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > FWIW, I'm reading and replying to this e-mail via kmail running over an X11 > ssh tunnel on my powerbook. My Dell laptop just about falls apart in my > hands now due to cheaper construction and cannot be safely used as a mobile > machine anymore. I could have told you before you bought it not to buy a Dell. Did my original post say buy a Dell? Or any other Intel-laptop other than Thinkpad? It did not. Thinkpads are solid, last well beyond their years and can take a far greater kicking than any other laptop I've dealt with. I've owned about 8 lpatops over the years, and the last 3 were Thinkpads. I'm not planning on changing any time soon. Don't buy cheap Korean/Taiwanese imports, Dells, Toshibas, Fujitsus or Panasonics. I haven't tried Sony, but the build quality worries me. > This powerbook, OTOH, seems to be the best constructed > notebook I've ever used. (My newer PC laptop from Alienware is also starting > to show some physical stress fractures and what not and it's the same age as > the powerbook.) The powerbook is also much lighter than my "luggables" while > mostly giving me what I want most out of my "luggables": screen real estate. How long you had it? You'll notice it starting to come to pieces about 6 months after your warranty runs out. But that won't matter, because by then Apple will have made sure the resale value of your existing laptop is near zero by adding an exra $100 of hardware to what you already have to a new frame that all the websites rave about, and you simply *must* buy it immediately. Let me say this clearly - I have a *lot* of experience with Apple. I was a beta developer on OS X, I've worked with virtually every model since the Quadras were first released. You're going backwards, I'm sticking with FreeBSD and moving forwards. Trust me on this, before you make any more expensive mistakes. OS X looks appealing, but if you want open source, open standards, progression, over the LONG TERM, Apple have a lot to prove in comparison to FreeBSD. If anybody tries to argue that Apple have contributed more to open source, open standards and progression than FreeBSD, they're trolling. > As far as OS X goes, it's handling of multiple displays (like TV out or VGA > out plus LCD) is phenomenal and very intuitive. The power management is also > quite good and actually works. (The BIOSen on both of my PC laptops is > busted such that they report capacity but don't properly report the usage and > charge rates so I never get remaining battery time in FreeBSD.) Also, > suspend/resume just works. All of that "just works" on my FreeBSD machines as well, but that might be because I know what I'm doing with XF86Config. I know what I'm doing because I took the 20 minutes it required to read the documentation. As a result, my laptop can do everything yours can, but cost me less than a five hundred dollars(*) and I have free software upgrades to the OS for life. > As far as the "brain drain" claim: I'd be very careful what you say about > that. One of the biggest "drains" has probably been Mike Smith. However, he > still participates in side conversations every once in a while and still > shows up for the occasional conference in which he still provides excellent > input. Also, FWIW, if it weren't for Mike (and a few others) talking me into > coming out to California to give WC/BSDi a try, I would probably have spent > the last few years working on industrial monitoring embedded systems instead > of the FreeBSD kernel. Granted, if I weren't around the work would still > have gotten done, but I think its a fair statement that my (and others') > current contributions are due at least in part to Mike, Jordan, and others. OK, here's a big part of my beef. Apple wants to be the MS of Unix. As a community, we appear to be helping them. I don't want to pay for OS upgrades, nor do I want to hear about how much "better" OS X is. I want people to find the flaws in what we have and work toward fixing them. I don't see the flaws much, so I suppose I'm not the best person to try, but if people just jump ship to OS X as an easy way out, potentially we're losing the impetus and momentum to fix what it is we have. If somebody sees a flaw in FreeBSD, I think most of us would prefer they became involved in trying to address that flaw instead of change OS. > Also, Apple has given back to the BSDs. Their modifications to existing BSD > code have been released under the BSD license resulting in bug fixes to > msdosfs and smbfs for example being merged back into FreeBSD. There is lots > more in Darwin for enterprising individuals to merge back if they wish as > well. Last guy I spoke to who looked at Darwin started looking pale. I don't know why, and I'm not sure I want to know why. Perhaps a productive swing to this conversation would be if people can identify those bits of Darwin that would be useful to have merged back into FBSD. Have you examples? (*) - the Thinkpad market on eBay is wonderful for bargains. A T22 can be picked up in the UK now for less than 300 quid which is about $500. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in different ways; the point, however, is to change it." - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 13:14:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3E216A4CE; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:14:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADC5843D5F; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:14:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net (unverified [24.119.122.25]) by smail2.cableone.net (SurgeMail 1.9b) with ESMTP id 22533603 for multiple; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 06:12:48 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:13:15 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Giorgos Keramidas Message-ID: <20041019081315.55c660f3@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> In-Reply-To: <20041019103230.GA641@gothmog.gr> References: <20041018184016.3dbed7b8@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> <20041018235001.GA99564@gothmog.gr> <20041018214640.6d110a53@vixen42.24-119-122-191.cpe.cableone.net> <20041019103230.GA641@gothmog.gr> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12b (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.10) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: learning c++ X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:14:02 -0000 On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:32:31 +0300 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2004-10-18 21:46, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:50:01 +0300 > > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > On 2004-10-18 18:40, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > > > been messing with learning strings and the like and I am > > > > getting a a.out that has a obscene size... 142kB in size... > > > > > > Is your executable dynamically or statically linked? > > > > Managed to get it down to 248448, which appears to be the smallest > > size I can manage to generate with c++... any ideas? > > > > btw if it makes a difference, I am running 4stable > > I'm running gcc version 3.4.2 [FreeBSD] 20040728 from 6.0-CURRENT, > so you might be getting different results because of the differences > of gcc 3.4.x running on -STABLE. Yup, it was :) Just grabbed the newest 5.3 iso and it works :) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 15:52:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EFBF16A4E3 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:52:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C514543D1F for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:52:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (qmail 27179 invoked from network); 19 Oct 2004 15:52:11 -0000 Received: from dsl027-160-063.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) encrypted SMTP for ; 19 Oct 2004 15:52:10 -0000 Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (zion.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.7]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9JFq30n047579 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:52:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zion.baldwin.cx (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9JFq38h001919 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:52:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@zion.baldwin.cx) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by zion.baldwin.cx (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i9JFq3is001918 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:52:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:51:00 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <200410182229.07373.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20041019102120.GI42527@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20041019102120.GI42527@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200410191151.00604.jhb@FreeBSD.org> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on server.baldwin.cx Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:52:12 -0000 On Tuesday 19 October 2004 06:21 am, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 10:29:07PM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > FWIW, I'm reading and replying to this e-mail via kmail running over an > > X11 ssh tunnel on my powerbook. My Dell laptop just about falls apart in > > my hands now due to cheaper construction and cannot be safely used as a > > mobile machine anymore. > > I could have told you before you bought it not to buy a Dell. Did my > original post say buy a Dell? Or any other Intel-laptop other than > Thinkpad? It did not. Thinkpads are solid, last well beyond their years > and can take a far greater kicking than any other laptop I've dealt > with. I've owned about 8 lpatops over the years, and the last 3 were > Thinkpads. I'm not planning on changing any time soon. Thinkpads are quite expensive, more so than other PC laptops, so that pretty much cancels out your argument about powerbooks being too expensive. I do agree that Thinkpads are very nice, but I'll probably never be able to buy one myself. Also, you completely ignored 1) comments about the Alienware laptop, and 2) the fact that the powerbook I have is already several years old and has _zero_ signs of stress. (No cracks, etc.) > If anybody tries to argue that Apple have contributed more to open > source, open standards and progression than FreeBSD, they're trolling. Umm, note that the powerbook is just one of the machines I use. I also have an Alienware laptop running FreeBSD, as well as my server, a desktop machine, my several test machines, etc. You keep assuming I'm somehow selling out to Apple. Perhaps you didn't notice, but I'm a FreeBSD core team member and very prolific kernel developer. I kind of get the whole open source thing. Different tools are good at different things, and I am quite comfortable with FreeBSD + KDE, but I also like OS X as a desktop. The fact that I can fire up X11.app and then ssh in and run kmail, etc. over ssh just as in FreeBSD is quite handy. It also has native p4 binaries and xemacs in darwinports allowing me to even do kernel development on the powerbook when I'm at home. > > As far as OS X goes, it's handling of multiple displays (like TV out or > > VGA out plus LCD) is phenomenal and very intuitive. The power management > > is also quite good and actually works. (The BIOSen on both of my PC > > laptops is busted such that they report capacity but don't properly > > report the usage and charge rates so I never get remaining battery time > > in FreeBSD.) Also, suspend/resume just works. > > All of that "just works" on my FreeBSD machines as well, but that might > be because I know what I'm doing with XF86Config. I know what I'm doing > because I took the 20 minutes it required to read the documentation. As > a result, my laptop can do everything yours can, but cost me less than a > five hundred dollars(*) and I have free software upgrades to the OS for > life. Umm, I'm not exactly a moron with X, but X does not have the feature of popping up a dialog box on each display letting you tune the resolutions independently and on the fly detach and attach displays properly. Xorg and XFree86 4.4 are better than older releases, but they still have a long way to go. Also, as someone who actually works on the code to get suspend/resume to work on some laptops (my Dell is now finally able to do S3 and S1 for the past half year at least in part due to work I helped with for PCI and other parts of the kernel) it still doesn't work completely (my Alienware can't come back from S3 yet because the kernel doesn't properly handle DPMS yet so the LCD never gets turned back on). That means that I can appreciate how well OS X does handle the power management angle. I've also spent several hours trying to see if I could get my laptops to properly report remaining battery time, but to no avail thus far. > > As far as the "brain drain" claim: I'd be very careful what you say > > about that. One of the biggest "drains" has probably been Mike Smith. > > However, he still participates in side conversations every once in a > > while and still shows up for the occasional conference in which he still > > provides excellent input. Also, FWIW, if it weren't for Mike (and a few > > others) talking me into coming out to California to give WC/BSDi a try, I > > would probably have spent the last few years working on industrial > > monitoring embedded systems instead of the FreeBSD kernel. Granted, if I > > weren't around the work would still have gotten done, but I think its a > > fair statement that my (and others') current contributions are due at > > least in part to Mike, Jordan, and others. > > OK, here's a big part of my beef. Apple wants to be the MS of Unix. As a > community, we appear to be helping them. I don't want to pay for OS > upgrades, nor do I want to hear about how much "better" OS X is. I want > people to find the flaws in what we have and work toward fixing them. I > don't see the flaws much, so I suppose I'm not the best person to try, > but if people just jump ship to OS X as an easy way out, potentially > we're losing the impetus and momentum to fix what it is we have. If > somebody sees a flaw in FreeBSD, I think most of us would prefer they > became involved in trying to address that flaw instead of change OS. Well, all I can say is that given that I personally know some of the people who now work on OS X that used to work on FreeBSD, I think you are just spouting random opinions without any basis in fact. > > Also, Apple has given back to the BSDs. Their modifications to existing > > BSD code have been released under the BSD license resulting in bug fixes > > to msdosfs and smbfs for example being merged back into FreeBSD. There > > is lots more in Darwin for enterprising individuals to merge back if they > > wish as well. > > Last guy I spoke to who looked at Darwin started looking pale. I don't > know why, and I'm not sure I want to know why. Perhaps a productive > swing to this conversation would be if people can identify those bits of > Darwin that would be useful to have merged back into FBSD. Have you > examples? I already pointed out MSDOSFS. There is still more work there to be merged back. Also, Apple funded much TrustedBSD work on Darwin that is now going to be brought back into FreeBSD and can be done so because the Darwin effort was funded. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 16:29:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8AD16A4CE; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:29:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B279743D1F; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:29:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CJwtf-0000RT-0d; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:31:39 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:31:39 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: John Baldwin Message-ID: <20041019163138.GW42527@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <200410182229.07373.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20041019102120.GI42527@iconoplex.co.uk> <200410191151.00604.jhb@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <200410191151.00604.jhb@FreeBSD.org> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:29:56 -0000 On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 11:51:00AM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > Thinkpads are quite expensive, more so than other PC laptops, so that pretty See eBay. A Celeron-based Thinkpad with bluetooth shouldn't cost you more than $600. How much are iBooks and Powerbooks again? Even second-hand? > my several test machines, etc. You keep assuming I'm somehow selling out to > Apple. Perhaps you didn't notice, but I'm a FreeBSD core team member and > very prolific kernel developer. I kind of get the whole open source thing. Yeah, John, I know who you are man. :-) My point is that on the one hand we have all these people proclaiming Open Source to be the greatest thing ever, whilst at the same time paying over the odds for Junior Unix on over-priced hardware to a company that keeps most of the really neat stuff to itself under closed source. Do you not see some element of duality in their standards there? Don't you think there is a kind of contradiction anywhere? See, at work I look after a 6-way Windows 2003 cluster. I think it rocks at what it does. I've signed off on purchases of Microsoft Content Management Server, SQL Server, etc. and I *know* that the £500k that went down that hole *could* have been better spent helping fund work on an open source CMS and back-end tools like MySQL. Problem is, there were other major political forces in my way. I know there was a double-standard on my part there, and I know my support of that Windows architecture shows duplicity in my own beliefs, but I want to try and get to the bottom of the OS X crowd who are splitting from FreeBSD. What are the actual factors involved in their decision, and are they really as vacuous and empty as excuses as I suspect they might be? I want to be proven wrong here. > Different tools are good at different things, and I am quite comfortable with > FreeBSD + KDE, but I also like OS X as a desktop. The fact that I can fire > up X11.app and then ssh in and run kmail, etc. over ssh just as in FreeBSD is > quite handy. It also has native p4 binaries and xemacs in darwinports > allowing me to even do kernel development on the powerbook when I'm at home. OK, but what would it take for you to see FreeBSD + X + whatever is better than OS X? I say it already is, but seriously, what would it actually take to get there? A different theme in KDE? What is the actual point of OS X if you already have FreeBSD? OS X is great if you're used to System 9. I don't see the upgrade path from FreeBSD. Can somebody, somewhere, please explain it to me beyond the vacuous details of how their Powerbook "looks neat" or that they like the fonts or the bouncing icons or whatever. Please? > Umm, I'm not exactly a moron with X, but X does not have the feature of > popping up a dialog box on each display letting you tune the resolutions > independently and on the fly detach and attach displays properly. Xorg and OK, there, now we're getting to the core of matters. I never need to switch resolutions on different displays, beyond Ctrl-+/- work when connecting to a 21" monitor. But the work required to do that is not extensive. And is that really the biggest draw to OS X? A dialog box instead of a keyboard shortcut or line in XF86Config? > XFree86 4.4 are better than older releases, but they still have a long way to > go. Also, as someone who actually works on the code to get suspend/resume to > work on some laptops (my Dell is now finally able to do S3 and S1 for the I have to admit I wasn't aware of that, but one reason cited for Apple kit and OS X being "better" than FreeBSD laptops to me, was that suspend/resume "just work". But for me, it's "just worked" since like, well... since forever. > past half year at least in part due to work I helped with for PCI and other > parts of the kernel) it still doesn't work completely (my Alienware can't > come back from S3 yet because the kernel doesn't properly handle DPMS yet so > the LCD never gets turned back on). That means that I can appreciate how > well OS X does handle the power management angle. I've also spent several > hours trying to see if I could get my laptops to properly report remaining > battery time, but to no avail thus far. I admit, one thing I have not yet got done on my old Thinkpad 240 was getting battery time reported correctly. I have had it work before, but not recently. I will concede there, but nowhere else. :-) > Well, all I can say is that given that I personally know some of the people > who now work on OS X that used to work on FreeBSD, I think you are just > spouting random opinions without any basis in fact. You've just said it. Some people claim there is no brain drain, yet you yourself admit that there are people out there who USED to work on FreeBSD who no longer do so, because they're off playing with OS X. I don't have a real complaint with them, but shouldn't we be trying to stop this, or do we all just pack up now and just make 6.0 a link to Darwin and advise everybody to go out and but Apple gear instead? Wouldn't it be nice if instead of accepting defeat we were able to find ways of funding those people who used to work on FreeBSD full time to come back? I'm not saying it can be done, I'm saying is that not better than just having a mass exodus to somebody else's OS? > I already pointed out MSDOSFS. There is still more work there to be merged > back. Also, Apple funded much TrustedBSD work on Darwin that is now going to > be brought back into FreeBSD and can be done so because the Darwin effort was > funded. That's nice and everything, but what I meant was, is the biggest draw to Darwin over *BSD the MSDOSFS stuff? Is there anything else in there that is worth porting? I accept TrustedBSD, but I thought most of that was now done? -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in different ways; the point, however, is to change it." - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 17:01:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B3D16A4CE for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:01:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C4343D2D for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:01:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) i9JH18H3006423; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:01:08 -0400 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i9JH15cN006421; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:01:05 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:01:05 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20041019170105.GA6401@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041019163138.GW42527@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:01:11 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > See eBay. A Celeron-based Thinkpad with bluetooth shouldn't cost you > more than $600. How much are iBooks and Powerbooks again? Even > second-hand? Thanks for making it clear you're trolling. Comparing a G4 with a celeron? I admit a G4 can't compete with a newer P4 or Athlon in speed. But then, those things run way too hot for a laptop. Most people don't use their laptops for numbercrunching, and a powerbook is plenty fast enough for office work, email, playing DVDs, even audio/video editing. As for other frills: for $1599 you can get a powerbook (ibooks are much cheaper)with a 1.33GHz P4, 256MB RAM, 60GB disk, NVidia GeForce with 64MB DDR, ethernet, firewire, airport, bluetooth: see what that costs you with IBM, or with HP or others for that matter. And the powerbooks are sleek, rugged, silent, comfortable, and the software "just works". You may not be impressed but your arguments don't make sense. > Try and get your screen replaced. Try and get the motherboard replaced. Try doing those on any laptop. Replacing the screen costs about as much as a new machine. I'd agree with everything you say -- overpriced, proprietary lock-in, etc -- on Apple desktops. With laptops, Apple are extremely competitive, and therefore are selling very well, too. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 17:22:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA11C16A4CE for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:22:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FEFE43D45 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:22:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CJxiW-0000wh-Of; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:24:12 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:24:12 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20041019172412.GX42527@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20041019163138.GW42527@iconoplex.co.uk> <20041019170105.GA6401@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041019170105.GA6401@online.fr> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:22:29 -0000 On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 01:01:05PM -0400, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Thanks for making it clear you're trolling. Comparing a G4 with a > celeron? OK, you can get a P4 for the same price, but you're going to need to whack out a few quid for a wireless card and a bluetooth dongle. You can get decent build-quality Thinkpads at a similar spec to a Powerbook for less cash. Do I *really* need to get the URLs out to prove this? > Try doing those on any laptop. Replacing the screen costs about as > much as a new machine. I'd agree with everything you say -- > overpriced, proprietary lock-in, etc -- on Apple desktops. With > laptops, Apple are extremely competitive, and therefore are selling > very well, too. I disagree, but then I've only owned three thinkpads and have never had an iBook or Powerbook bought with my own cash, so what do I know? -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 18:48:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29AD16A4CE; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:48:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pd3mo3so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8240143D4C; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:48:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flowers@users.sourceforge.net) Received: from pd4mr4so.prod.shaw.ca (pd4mr4so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.215]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I5U00D1QHJM9VC0@l-daemon>; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:47:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml6so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.150]) by pd4mr4so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I5U00HYVHJL7Z00@pd4mr4so.prod.shaw.ca>; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:47:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sirius (S0106000c41b2b9a3.cg.shawcable.net [68.144.45.143]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with SMTP id <0I5U0080NHJL8X@l-daemon>; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:47:45 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:47:54 -0600 From: Dan MacMillan In-reply-to: <20041019163138.GW42527@iconoplex.co.uk> To: Paul Robinson Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org cc: John Baldwin Subject: RE: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:48:53 -0000 From: Paul Robinson > > ... > > You've just said it. Some people claim there is no brain drain, yet you > yourself admit that there are people out there who USED to work on > FreeBSD who no longer do so, because they're off playing with OS X. I > don't have a real complaint with them, but shouldn't we be trying to > stop this, or do we all just pack up now and just make 6.0 a link to > Darwin and advise everybody to go out and but Apple gear instead? > > Wouldn't it be nice if instead of accepting defeat we were able to find > ways of funding those people who used to work on FreeBSD full time to > come back? I'm not saying it can be done, I'm saying is that not better > than just having a mass exodus to somebody else's OS? > > ... > > That's nice and everything, but what I meant was, is the biggest draw to > Darwin over *BSD the MSDOSFS stuff? Is there anything else in there that > is worth porting? I accept TrustedBSD, but I thought most of that was > now done? I doubt the differences between Darwin and FreeBSD are significant here. If they were, you'd also be decrying OpenBSD, NetBSD, &c. The thing that really makes Mac OS X different from a machine running FreeBSD + X is the proprietary Mac user interface. You may not see it, but the Mac UI is compelling to a lot of people. The differences between the Mac UI and KDE are not superficial. You can add a theme (and a bunch of other stuff) to KDE that will make it look like the Mac UI, but you can't add a theme that will make it =act= like the Mac UI. Anyone could have written the Mac UI, including the open source community. Apple are the people who =did= it. Why didn't we write it? Because we're too busy adding things to KDE and Gnome. And as has been stated thousands of times in different fora, perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. This philosophical schism comprises the "different" in "Think Different". We had the opportunity to create the Mac UI, but not the motive. Why? Because we're software developers and systems administrators, used to several more layers of abstraction and indirection than your average Joe. Additionally, we have our own mythology based around the virtues of complexity and difficulty. "It ain't love if it don't hurt." You yourself are a case in point. We take satisfaction from challenging ourselves and solving difficult problems. That means we spend all our time on the edge cases. Apple the corporation would be Microsoft if they could. But you know what? Everyone would be Microsoft if they could, including us. Apple, unlike Microsoft, does make significant contributions to open source. Apple, unlike Microsoft, is betting its business on open source. So I don't see how Apple is such a bad thing for open source. -- Danny From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 21:13:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A203F16A4D0 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:13:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49FC343D49 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:13:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (qmail 23105 invoked from network); 19 Oct 2004 21:13:08 -0000 Received: from dsl027-160-063.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) encrypted SMTP for ; 19 Oct 2004 21:13:06 -0000 Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (zion.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.7]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9JLCxUt050274 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:12:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zion.baldwin.cx (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9JLCx8h005678 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:12:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@zion.baldwin.cx) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by zion.baldwin.cx (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i9JLCxp0005677 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:12:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:20:19 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <200410191151.00604.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20041019163138.GW42527@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20041019163138.GW42527@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200410191520.19743.jhb@FreeBSD.org> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on server.baldwin.cx Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:13:10 -0000 On Tuesday 19 October 2004 12:31 pm, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 11:51:00AM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > Thinkpads are quite expensive, more so than other PC laptops, so that > > pretty > > See eBay. A Celeron-based Thinkpad with bluetooth shouldn't cost you > more than $600. How much are iBooks and Powerbooks again? Even > second-hand? I must confess that all of my laptops thus far have been purchased by my=20 various employers (even the very old Thinkpad I borrowed in college), but=20 when I've looked at pricing replacements the Thinkpads seem very expensive.= =20 However, I haven't trawled ebay yet, so there are probably deals lurking=20 there. > See, at work I look after a 6-way Windows 2003 cluster. I think it rocks > at what it does. I've signed off on purchases of Microsoft Content > Management Server, SQL Server, etc. and I *know* that the =A3500k that > went down that hole *could* have been better spent helping fund work on > an open source CMS and back-end tools like MySQL. Problem is, there were > other major political forces in my way. I know there was a > double-standard on my part there, and I know my support of that Windows > architecture shows duplicity in my own beliefs, but I want to try and > get to the bottom of the OS X crowd who are splitting from FreeBSD. What > are the actual factors involved in their decision, and are they really > as vacuous and empty as excuses as I suspect they might be? I want to be > proven wrong here. Well, one thing is that I know that working on FreeBSD can be very tiring=20 after a while. Occasionally I go through slow periods in my FreeBSD work d= ue=20 to burnout and some folks just burned out more completely after longer=20 stints. If people burn out, then they are not going to be working much on= =20 =46reeBSD regardless. Working on OS X can provide a fairly familiar=20 environment for folks who want to work on something new. Since open source= =20 developers tend to be a bunch of geeks who don't always have the best socia= l=20 skills I think there is an even larger tendency for frustration and getting= =20 burned out in an open source community than at a job where the social=20 interaction mixture is more diverse. > > Different tools are good at different things, and I am quite comfortable > > with FreeBSD + KDE, but I also like OS X as a desktop. The fact that I > > can fire up X11.app and then ssh in and run kmail, etc. over ssh just as > > in FreeBSD is quite handy. It also has native p4 binaries and xemacs in > > darwinports allowing me to even do kernel development on the powerbook > > when I'm at home. > > OK, but what would it take for you to see FreeBSD + X + whatever is > better than OS X? I say it already is, but seriously, what would it > actually take to get there? A different theme in KDE? What is the actual > point of OS X if you already have FreeBSD? OS X is great if you're used > to System 9. I don't see the upgrade path from FreeBSD. Can somebody, > somewhere, please explain it to me beyond the vacuous details of how > their Powerbook "looks neat" or that they like the fonts or the bouncing > icons or whatever. Please? Well, when I plug in the VGA output for a projector, it just turns on and l= ets=20 me pick the resolution from a pop box independent of the main LCD display. = =20 It lets me do mirror or separate displays with a simple click, and it is al= l=20 through a simple and intuitive GUI rather than reading man pages and hackin= g=20 on text config files. The fact that out of the box you plug in a digital=20 camera and iPhoto just pops up with the pictures downloaded is another=20 example of where the folks at Apple have put effort into the UI. FreeBSD=20 definitely has room for improvement here. Also, the work they put into the= =20 idea of "locations" that define network configurations is done well and=20 integrated into the UI well. It's not so much grand sweeping changes as mu= ch=20 as lots of details that have been addressed that can save time if all you=20 need to do is surf the web, pop up some terminals or xemacs, etc. (IOW,=20 desktop use.) Oh, and "switch user" from panther. My wife and I often sha= re=20 the same FreeBSD + KDE machine at home and when I'm not using a laptop we=20 have to keep logging out to let the other person use the machine. Having=20 switch user for KDE would be very, very nice. > > XFree86 4.4 are better than older releases, but they still have a long > > way to go. Also, as someone who actually works on the code to get > > suspend/resume to work on some laptops (my Dell is now finally able to = do > > S3 and S1 for the > > I have to admit I wasn't aware of that, but one reason cited for Apple > kit and OS X being "better" than FreeBSD laptops to me, was that > suspend/resume "just work". But for me, it's "just worked" since like, > well... since forever. Unfortunately suspend/resume mostly doesn't work on PC laptops nowadays. := =2D( Things like ACPI are supposed to help but many vendors don't always put ful= l=20 support into ACPI and require vendor specific drivers for what should be AC= PI=20 functions (e.g. battery time remaining on both of my laptops and on early=20 Vaios). > > Well, all I can say is that given that I personally know some of the > > people who now work on OS X that used to work on FreeBSD, I think you a= re > > just spouting random opinions without any basis in fact. > > You've just said it. Some people claim there is no brain drain, yet you > yourself admit that there are people out there who USED to work on > FreeBSD who no longer do so, because they're off playing with OS X. I > don't have a real complaint with them, but shouldn't we be trying to > stop this, or do we all just pack up now and just make 6.0 a link to > Darwin and advise everybody to go out and but Apple gear instead? > > Wouldn't it be nice if instead of accepting defeat we were able to find > ways of funding those people who used to work on FreeBSD full time to > come back? I'm not saying it can be done, I'm saying is that not better > than just having a mass exodus to somebody else's OS? Well, I don't think there is a mass exodus. Also, I think that it is actua= lly=20 good for FreeBSD for there to be at least some turnover in the developer=20 base. We want to be in the position where the Project doesn't go down the= =20 tubes if someone gets run over by a bus. I don't think that it has harmed= =20 =46reeBSD to have some of the folks go work on OS X instead. In fact, in s= ome=20 ways the relationships there are helpful. As I said earlier, I still talk = to=20 Mike occasionally to ask him for advice, etc. Also, having Apple fund=20 TrustedBSD work has been a big help to getting that work done sooner. Ther= e=20 also have been several minor bug fixes in libc and a few other userland=20 places merged back from Apple to FreeBSD. > That's nice and everything, but what I meant was, is the biggest draw to > Darwin over *BSD the MSDOSFS stuff? Is there anything else in there that > is worth porting? I accept TrustedBSD, but I thought most of that was > now done? No, the draw to OS X is the UI and a lot of the non-Darwin stuff. The stuf= f=20 in Darwin that they've fixed is out there sitting for anyone to go look at= =20 and try to integrate back into FreeBSD where appropriate. =2D-=20 John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 21:13:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4570A16A4D7 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:13:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C4C43D46 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:13:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.20.76.195]) by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.netSMTP <20041019211315.IBY27319.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:13:15 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:15:18 -0700 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20041019141518.27c1db83.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20041019163138.GW42527@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <200410182229.07373.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20041019102120.GI42527@iconoplex.co.uk> <200410191151.00604.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20041019163138.GW42527@iconoplex.co.uk> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:13:16 -0000 On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:31:39 +0100 Paul Robinson wrote: > My point is that on the one hand we have all these people proclaiming > Open Source to be the greatest thing ever, whilst at the same time > paying over the odds for Junior Unix on over-priced hardware to a > company that keeps most of the really neat stuff to itself under > closed source. Do you not see some element of duality in their > standards there? Don't you think there is a kind of contradiction > anywhere? Sure. But who is saying that open-source is the greatest thing ever?=20 Literally, I mean? To make that claim would be absurd in itself. The BSD license lets Apple close their source. If you don't like that, perhaps you would find more appeal in the GPL, which - in its own way - tries harder to prevent that. > See, at work I look after a 6-way Windows 2003 cluster. I think it > rocks at what it does. I've signed off on purchases of Microsoft > Content Management Server, SQL Server, etc. and I *know* that the > =A3500k that went down that hole *could* have been better spent helping > fund work on an open source CMS and back-end tools like MySQL. Problem > is, there were other major political forces in my way. I know there > was a double-standard on my part there, and I know my support of that > Windows architecture shows duplicity in my own beliefs, but I want to > try and get to the bottom of the OS X crowd who are splitting from > FreeBSD. What are the actual factors involved in their decision, and > are they really as vacuous and empty as excuses as I suspect they > might be? I want to be proven wrong here. I can't, because I infer from the above that you believe that politics is less vacuous than style. I'm not sure I agree. From what I've seen of it, politics is pretty darn vacuous. > OK, but what would it take for you to see FreeBSD + X + whatever is > better than OS X? I say it already is, but seriously, what would it > actually take to get there? IMHO: Make support for FreeBSD more accessible than support for OS X. IOW, in the big picture, technical merit isn't everything. > [...] > You've just said it. Some people claim there is no brain drain, yet > you yourself admit that there are people out there who USED to work on > FreeBSD who no longer do so, because they're off playing with OS X. I > don't have a real complaint with them, but shouldn't we be trying to > stop this, or do we all just pack up now and just make 6.0 a link to > Darwin and advise everybody to go out and but Apple gear instead? False dilemma, I think. Everyone is free to do as they like. You're free to try to pursuade them to stay if you choose, as well, although advocacy@ might be a more appropriate venue for that. My point is that I don't think Apple-bashing (deserved or not) is going to be very persuasive to most people, so if that's your goal, my recommendation would be to change tack. -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 19 23:34:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D41816A4CE for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:34:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.knology.net (smtp.knology.net [24.214.63.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 060EB43D46 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:34:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 7083 invoked by uid 0); 19 Oct 2004 23:34:41 -0000 Received: from user-69-73-60-132.knology.net (HELO ?10.0.0.68?) (69.73.60.132) by smtp2.knology.net with SMTP; 19 Oct 2004 23:34:41 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <200410191520.19743.jhb@FreeBSD.org> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <200410191151.00604.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20041019163138.GW42527@iconoplex.co.uk> <200410191520.19743.jhb@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <62A563EF-2227-11D9-9D23-000393BB56F2@HiWAAY.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Kelly Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:34:13 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:34:21 -0000 On Oct 19, 2004, at 2:20 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > Also, having Apple fund TrustedBSD work has been a big help to getting > that work done sooner. There also have been several minor bug fixes > in libc and a few other userland places merged back from Apple to > FreeBSD. Wasn't Apple the source of some major NFS fixes a couple of years ago? I seem to remember mention of example code which reliably broke the BSD NFS code, which provided developers a means of reproducing the problem so that it may be hunted. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 20 03:43:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF9D116A4CE; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 03:43:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pickering.cc.nd.edu (pickering.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.225]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6664743D31; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 03:43:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dmschei@attglobal.net) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (scheidt-rout.canopy.nd.edu [129.74.98.169]) (authenticated bits=0)i9K3hNZc018476 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:43:24 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <200410191520.19743.jhb@FreeBSD.org> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <200410191151.00604.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20041019163138.GW42527@iconoplex.co.uk> <200410191520.19743.jhb@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <31210910-224A-11D9-8991-0030657EDEB2@attglobal.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Scheidt Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:43:23 -0500 To: John Baldwin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-ND-MTA-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:43:25 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.3.20; dat v4399 cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 03:43:26 -0000 On Oct 19, 2004, at 2:20 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > desktop use.) Oh, and "switch user" from panther. My wife and I > often share > the same FreeBSD + KDE machine at home and when I'm not using a laptop > we > have to keep logging out to let the other person use the machine. > Having > switch user for KDE would be very, very nice. Not as nice as switching users, but it's possible to run more than one instance of an X server on the machine. startx -- :1 will start X on the next available vt, and call it display :1. I'm sure xdm can be made to run on it with not much effort, if you feel the need for that. Hitting ctrl-alt-fn is not quite as nice as picking a name out of a menu, and there are some resources wasted. For two people, on a modern machine, it should be quite fine. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 20 10:03:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2340816A4CE for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:03:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3203143D31 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:03:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CKDLh-0007uT-K5; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:05:41 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:05:41 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Chris Pressey Message-ID: <20041020100541.GY42527@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <200410182229.07373.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20041019102120.GI42527@iconoplex.co.uk> <200410191151.00604.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20041019163138.GW42527@iconoplex.co.uk> <20041019141518.27c1db83.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20041019141518.27c1db83.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:03:59 -0000 On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 02:15:18PM -0700, Chris Pressey wrote: > Sure. But who is saying that open-source is the greatest thing ever? Lots of people, me included. Admittedly, we disagree on details, but there are plenty of people out there who see the potential for open source to be as big a revolution to the information age as the wheel was to the dawn of commerce. > The BSD license lets Apple close their source. If you don't like that, > perhaps you would find more appeal in the GPL, which - in its own way - > tries harder to prevent that. I don't have a problem with the BSD license. In fact, I have been the proponent on this list in years past of trying to identify which GPL bits of FreeBSD could be easily replaced (answer: there were about 20 components, all of them pretty much irreplaceable without huge amounts of work). My problem with Apple is not that is has closed its source. My problem is with people who proclaim BSD is the most wonderful license in the world then drop it like a hot brick to go and buy into closed source. It's not as if they went to work on GPL stuff here - they're abondoning open source in it's entirety. Doesn't anybody else see that as even remotely damaging in any way? Closed source is a problem for me on several levels. For example: Excuse #234 for switching to Mac OS X: "I used to get by fine with OpenOffice, but the great thing about OS X is that I can give Microsoft $500 and run their office suite perpetuating their lock-in on that market. I don't care we've been fighting for the last decade and a half, and oh by the way, when I said I didn't like MS' closed standards on their file formats, I was obviously lying! Hahaha!" Please, somebody tell me they can see where I'm going on this? Am I completely alone here? > I can't, because I infer from the above that you believe that politics > is less vacuous than style. I'm not sure I agree. From what I've > seen of it, politics is pretty darn vacuous. Depends on the type of politics. When you have a bunch of people spewing rhetoric to sycophantically curry favour with an electorate, it's vacuous. When your boss comes to you and says you've got a £300k contract with a company that has a load of code in ASP.NET, it's not. To turn around and say "well, I'm not running that code because it won't run on my Unix boxes" is going to get me fired. But if I'm specifying which companies go on the list for procurement in the first place, I have some greater degree of control, which is also politics, but is not particularly vacuous. > IMHO: Make support for FreeBSD more accessible than support for OS X. Well, am I right in thinking there are two routes here you may be suggesting: 1. Reduce the learning overhead for casual use of FreeBSD by cleaning up some of the dumber interfaces. You know, this is a bikeshed that has been running around for two years - "We need a new installer", "We need better integration between system tools and KDE/Gnome", "We need better package management"... all are true, but nobody agrees on how to proceed. Especially as so many people don't think FreeBSD should have any development effort orientated towards the desktop space - many people see FreeBSD as a purely server-based operating system. Maybe I "don't get it" because I use it as a desktop, and all the guys running off to the Apple Store waving their credit cards "don't get it" because they think FreeBSD can only be used on servers. Who knows? 2. Increase the visibility of local organisations that can offer support on FreeBSD. I work with an organisation that assists local tech businesses in becoming more aware of non-tech issues. We sometimes interface with other public bodies who are attempting to promote open source within small businesses. Their number one barrier for open source getting onto the desks of SMEs: support. A SME can pick up the phone and get somebody to come and install an Exchange server and stay on retainer for a few hundred a month quite easily. Can they find people who will come and install an open source solution? Nope. Is that it? Or am I missing something else? > False dilemma, I think. Everyone is free to do as they like. You're > free to try to pursuade them to stay if you choose, as well, although > advocacy@ might be a more appropriate venue for that. My point is that > I don't think Apple-bashing (deserved or not) is going to be very > persuasive to most people, so if that's your goal, my recommendation > would be to change tack. I don't think this is pure -advocacy material. For a start, that lot are mental. Secondly, if I'm trying to get an idea of why people are dropping *BSD in favour of another flavour, they're not going to be on -advocacy. They're more likely to be here if they are still in a transitional state. I am an Apple-basher in real life, but my purpose here (despite starting out bashing Apple kit) is now to try and find the gap* between the perception of this project and that of OS X and understand why people are running away from *BSD in general on the desktop. * - in the case of Apple users, they're probably more familiar with GAP. See, I just can't help myself. Perhaps I have a problem with loafers and goatee beards. :-) -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in different ways; the point, however, is to change it." - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 20 15:24:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4821516A4CE for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:24:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-04-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B87243D39 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:24:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vkaul@ma.rr.com) Received: from gogobera.ma.rr.com (dhcp024-160-199-227.ma.rr.com [24.160.199.227])i9KFOYHH013939; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:24:39 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <20041018220826.GG42527@iconoplex.co.uk> To: "Paul Robinson" Message-ID: From: "Vijay Kaul" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:24:26 -0500 User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3869) X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup (OT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:24:42 -0000 On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:08:26 +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 11:34:08PM +0200, Andi Scharfstein wrote: > >> I was wondering if there was any advice you'd want to give an Apple >> newbie. > > Yes, of course. <-snip-> > I will now don the fireproof suit. The above reply, and the replies to it, were great! I don't hang around many places that get angry (irritated?) diatribes. Most of the online discussions I read are overly polite, even. This was a great rant. It just went on and on. It brought up solid points the author was willing to defend. The author was well challenged on many of those points. Discussion ensued. Name-calling and other wastes-of-time did not. (Well, aside from the PowerBook beats father quip :D ) In conclusion, the conduct of everone on this list was fantastic. People discussed topics they care about without losing their sense of humor. Technical merits were both solid theoretical and first-hand experience. This just goes to show why the FBSD group is so fun to be around. I will now stop wasting your time. :) -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 20 19:10:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08BEC16A4CE for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:10:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1C9C43D41 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:10:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 20176 invoked from network); 20 Oct 2004 19:10:51 -0000 Received: from dsl027-160-063.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) encrypted SMTP for ; 20 Oct 2004 19:10:50 -0000 Received: from [10.50.41.228] (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9KJAlbf059480; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:10:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:41:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <200410191520.19743.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <31210910-224A-11D9-8991-0030657EDEB2@attglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <31210910-224A-11D9-8991-0030657EDEB2@attglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200410201141.19130.jhb@FreeBSD.org> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on server.baldwin.cx cc: David Scheidt Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:10:52 -0000 On Tuesday 19 October 2004 11:43 pm, David Scheidt wrote: > On Oct 19, 2004, at 2:20 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > > desktop use.) Oh, and "switch user" from panther. My wife and I > > often share > > the same FreeBSD + KDE machine at home and when I'm not using a laptop > > we > > have to keep logging out to let the other person use the machine. > > Having > > switch user for KDE would be very, very nice. > > Not as nice as switching users, but it's possible to run more than one > instance of an X server on the machine. > > startx -- :1 > > will start X on the next available vt, and call it display :1. I'm > sure xdm can be made to run on it with not much effort, if you feel the > need for that. > > Hitting ctrl-alt-fn is not quite as nice as picking a name out of a > menu, and there are some resources wasted. For two people, on a modern > machine, it should be quite fine. I'm aware of that (we are using kdm, fwiw), but using multiple displays is a hack and not as intuitive as switch user. It also doesn't scale well. For N people you have to have N kdm instances running. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 20 19:33:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A40F616A4DC for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:33:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [64.124.90.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BBDA43D2F for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:33:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:33:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Hacker strikes Berkeley university computer system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:33:43 -0000 Anyone know what OS they where running on this system? Hacker strikes university computer system By Reuters http://news.com.com/Hacker+strikes+university+computer+system/2100-7349_3-541838 8.html Story last modified October 19, 2004, 6:55 PM PDT A computer hacker accessed names and Social Security numbers of about 1.4 million Californians after breaking into a University of California, Berkeley, computer system in perhaps the worst attack of its kind ever suffered by the school, officials said Tuesday. "The investigation is continuing but we have no idea if the (personal) information has been compromised," said Carlos Ramos, assistant secretary at the California Health and Human Services Agency. He said state agencies and the FBI were investigating, but the hacker had not been found. The names accessed by the hacker were being used by a UC Berkeley researcher who had collected data on elderly people and individuals who provide in-home care to seniors to study the impact of wages on in-home care, Ramos said. The data, which included home addresses, telephone numbers and dates of birth, was being used at the state's authorization but without the consent of the individuals whose information was being used in the study. Ramos said the state is authorized to share with researchers the personal information of individuals who participate in state programs administered by the state social services department. George Strait, a university spokesman, confirmed the school's computer system had been penetrated in what he believed was the most significant hacking job the university had experienced. The university detected its computer system had been broken into at the end of August, but did not notify the state until Sept. 27 after the school had done its own investigation with the FBI, Strait said. Story Copyright © 2004 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Nicole -- ******* |\ __ /| (`\ ******* * * | o_o |__ ) ) * * * * // \\ * * * Blessed Be! | Powered by FreeBSD * ----------------------(((---(((-------------------------------- http://www.unixgirl.com - http://www.deviantimages.com http://www.nonsenseband.com If you want to go backwards, you put it in 'R,' and if you want to go forward, you put it in 'D' -- Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA) I like Nader - But I hate Bush even more - Vote Kerry 2004! -- NMH I hate to see a woman cry, but I love to hear them scream. --Dennis the Menace From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 20 22:37:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11ABC16A4CE for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:37:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.207]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EDA343D41 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:37:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kjelderg@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 79so479880rnk for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:37:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=KDj6n4is7vrx7IbSI35hOGgTcCOcdpBxnwcbFHgJl8MhcTxVFrNdoZePHQ2aac6NhqNJeiYmtYaX9hxWDv3tnJYar2lzovSGZ6V25ZWhivo7reqb3Tl0YeFC6gZ1AZGs3YUFGgGkt7NxBZCBJiuoakH+sfD2hp55zt+IyCu8KKY Received: by 10.38.65.47 with SMTP id n47mr1032143rna; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.15.69 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:37:10 -0500 From: Eric Kjeldergaard To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200410201141.19130.jhb@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <200410191520.19743.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <31210910-224A-11D9-8991-0030657EDEB2@attglobal.net> <200410201141.19130.jhb@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: Powerbook Setup X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eric Kjeldergaard List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:37:12 -0000 On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:41:18 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > On Tuesday 19 October 2004 11:43 pm, David Scheidt wrote: > > On Oct 19, 2004, at 2:20 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > > > desktop use.) Oh, and "switch user" from panther. My wife and I > > > often share > > > the same FreeBSD + KDE machine at home and when I'm not using a laptop > > > we > > > have to keep logging out to let the other person use the machine. > > > Having > > > switch user for KDE would be very, very nice. > > > > Not as nice as switching users, but it's possible to run more than one > > instance of an X server on the machine. > > > > startx -- :1 > > > > will start X on the next available vt, and call it display :1. I'm > > sure xdm can be made to run on it with not much effort, if you feel the > > need for that. > > > > Hitting ctrl-alt-fn is not quite as nice as picking a name out of a > > menu, and there are some resources wasted. For two people, on a modern > > machine, it should be quite fine. > > I'm aware of that (we are using kdm, fwiw), but using multiple displays is a > hack and not as intuitive as switch user. It also doesn't scale well. For N > people you have to have N kdm instances running. Perhaps I'm out-of-place in this assumption, but for large N, isn't it time to get a second machine or perhaps log out? The quick switching of graphical desktop isn't done in a particularly comfortable fashion in any of the desktop environments that I have used (and yes, that includes Win and OSX). I understand the desire to keep applications running and have a second or maybe even third user use the system at the same time, but I think with kde's state saving and screen, most things get figured out easily enough. I certainly wouldn't dislike a project, either a kde-type project that implemented user switching or (What I would actually really like) something like screen that would work for X applications, but I don't know that it's much of a priority. You could pretty easily add something to your kmenu that says switch users, looks for existing kde apps, prompts you, and covers up for the multiple X server hack. I've considered doing this (and may still), but I'm pretty lazy sometimes and got my wife a separate machine. If you wanted to do the last suggestion, which would implement pseudo fast-user switching, I'm sure projects like BSD and KDE would love to see the results. A simple combination of terminal-switching commands, screen lock, and a prompt that looks for running kde instances (or even X instances for multi-desktop environment setups) wouldn't be /so/ hard to toss together. -- If I write a signature, my emails will appear more personalised. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 21 00:07:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BFED16A4CE for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 00:07:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes84.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1BFB43D49 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 00:07:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.20.76.195]) by priv-edtnes84.telusplanet.netSMTP <20041021000700.EVEC2245.priv-edtnes84.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:07:00 -0600 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:09:06 -0700 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20041020170906.5199cfca.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20041020100541.GY42527@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <16710656779.20041018233408@synchron.org> <200410182229.07373.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20041019102120.GI42527@iconoplex.co.uk> <200410191151.00604.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20041019163138.GW42527@iconoplex.co.uk> <20041019141518.27c1db83.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041020100541.GY42527@iconoplex.co.uk> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.12 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: something that was once "Re: Powerbook Setup" but which is now something more akin to Remedial Debating 101 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 00:07:02 -0000 On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:05:41 +0100 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 02:15:18PM -0700, Chris Pressey wrote: >=20 > > Sure. But who is saying that open-source is the greatest thing > > ever?=20 >=20 > Lots of people, me included. So - you would give your life for Open Source? Of course not, that's merely illustrative - and since you apparently missed it last time, I'll spell out what I'm saying this time. My problem is not nearly as much with your point as it is with the quality of your rhetoric. It's really, really awful. At various points it's loaded with hyperbole (see above, and below,) superciliousness ("You're going backwards, I'm sticking with FreeBSD and moving forwards",) dysphemism ("Fisher Price Unix") and it generally carries a tone of hysteria throughout it. I'm not entirely convinced you're a troll, as has been suggested - but if not, you're damned near. You might want to consider this message a red flag in that regard. > Admittedly, we disagree on details, but > there are plenty of people out there who see the potential for open > source to be as big a revolution to the information age as the wheel > was to the dawn of commerce. Which (to make extra-sure we're on the same page on this) is still a far cry from being "the best thing ever". You do understand that, I hope. > > The BSD license lets Apple close their source. If you don't like > > that, perhaps you would find more appeal in the GPL, which - in its > > own way - tries harder to prevent that. >=20 > I don't have a problem with the BSD license. In fact, I have been the > proponent on this list in years past of trying to identify which GPL > bits of FreeBSD could be easily replaced (answer: there were about 20 > components, all of them pretty much irreplaceable without huge amounts > of work). My problem with Apple is not that is has closed its source. Hold that thought... > My problem is with people who proclaim BSD is the most wonderful > license in the world (there you go with the hyperbole again - I doubt there really are such people who have said that in seriousness) > then drop it like a hot brick to go and buy into > closed source. It's not as if they went to work on GPL stuff here - > they're abondoning open source in it's entirety. Doesn't anybody else > see that as even remotely damaging in any way? Giving some concrete examples would help your argument here. Who, specifically, has left open-source, never to come back? (Maybe I missed mention of a specific name previously in this thread, in which case I apologize.) Also - let's be specific here, there are two types of people "moving away" - open-source developers and open-source consumers. The loss of the first type is, I think, far more significant than the loss of the second; but I think it's the second type who are those you see moving the most (I would guess they're more subject to Apple's "sex appeal" than dyed-in-the-wool coders.) Since the consumers don't develop open-source, it's reasonable to say that very little is lost when they "move". Further, the first type can be split even more finely into two subgroups - those developers who now *only* develop closed-source, and those who continue to develop open-source. Again, the first type is a bigger loss to open-source, but I imagine, far more the minority. In short, I believe you're blowing things WAY out of proportion. > Closed source is a problem for me on several levels. For example: Now bring back that thought I told you to hold. I thought your problem with Apple was *not* that they closed source? If not that, then what? > Excuse #234 for switching to Mac OS X: "I used to get by fine with > OpenOffice, but the great thing about OS X is that I can give > Microsoft$500 and run their office suite perpetuating their lock-in on > that market. I don't care we've been fighting for the last decade and > a half, and oh by the way, when I said I didn't like MS' closed > standards on their file formats, I was obviously lying! Hahaha!" >=20 > Please, somebody tell me they can see where I'm going on this? I dunno. It is an exercise in gross caricature? > Am I completely alone here? Possibly. I don't see myself as "fighting" Apple, Microsoft, or any other tech company, just because I develop open-source software. They have as much right to try to make a buck with their software as I have a right to choose not to with mine. > > I can't, because I infer from the above that you believe that > > politics is less vacuous than style. I'm not sure I agree. From > > what I've seen of it, politics is pretty darn vacuous. >=20 > Depends on the type of politics. When you have a bunch of people > spewing rhetoric to sycophantically curry favour with an electorate, > it's vacuous.=20 > > When your boss comes to you and says you've got a =A3300k contract with > a company that has a load of code in ASP.NET, it's not. To turn around > and say "well, I'm not running that code because it won't run on my > Unix boxes" is going to get me fired. But if I'm specifying which > companies go on the list for procurement in the first place, I have > some greater degree of control, which is also politics, but is not > particularly vacuous. So it's OK to be a whore to closed-source if you're "just following orders" as part of your job? The developers who have "left" for Apple have to eat too. If you are asking them to be so principled in their attitudes towards open-source that they refuse employment on that basis, is it not fair to ask you to do the same? > > IMHO: Make support for FreeBSD more accessible than support for OS > > X. >=20 > Well, am I right in thinking there are two routes here you may be > suggesting: >=20 > 1. Reduce the learning overhead for casual use of FreeBSD by cleaning > up some of the dumber interfaces. You know, this is a bikeshed that > has been running around for two years - "We need a new installer", "We > need better integration between system tools and KDE/Gnome", "We need > better package management"... all are true, but nobody agrees on how > to proceed.=20 > > Especially as so many people don't think FreeBSD should have any=20 > development effort orientated towards the desktop space - many people > see FreeBSD as a purely server-based operating system. (Further to that - those who control the FreeBSD project don't see a server-based operating system *needing* a better user interface. I'll return to this in a moment) > Maybe I "don't get it" because I use it as a desktop, and all the guys > running off to the Apple Store waving their credit cards "don't get > it" because they think FreeBSD can only be used on servers. Who knows? > > 2. Increase the visibility of local organisations that can offer > support on FreeBSD. I work with an organisation that assists local > tech businesses in becoming more aware of non-tech issues. We > sometimes interface with other public bodies who are attempting to > promote open source within small businesses. Their number one barrier > for open source getting onto the desks of SMEs: support. A SME can > pick up the phone and get somebody to come and install an Exchange > server and stay on retainer for a few hundred a month quite easily. > Can they find people who will come and install an open source > solution? Nope. > > Is that it? Or am I missing something else? The last half of that last paragraph is what I was referring to, yes. Support for FreeBSD, compared to Windows or OS X, is essentially non-existent. Note that I didn't say I thought it was possible to change the situation; I was merely answering your question "OK, but what would it take for you to see FreeBSD + X + whatever is better than OS X?" In fact I don't think it IS possible. Commercial projects almost always get more exposure than open-source projects - Linux being the only exception I can think of ATM. I live in a city of over 2.5 million. At the last BSD user group meeting, about nine people showed up. It's hard to write a business plan based on selling FreeBSD support when so few people use it and those who do are generally capable of maintaining their own systems. > > False dilemma, I think. Everyone is free to do as they like.=20 > > You're free to try to pursuade them to stay if you choose, as well, > > although advocacy@ might be a more appropriate venue for that. My > > point is that I don't think Apple-bashing (deserved or not) is going > > to be very persuasive to most people, so if that's your goal, my > > recommendation would be to change tack. >=20 > I don't think this is pure -advocacy material. For a start, that lot > are mental. Secondly, if I'm trying to get an idea of why people are > dropping *BSD in favour of another flavour, they're not going to be on > -advocacy. They're more likely to be here if they are still in a > transitional state. > > I am an Apple-basher in real life, but my purpose here (despite > starting out bashing Apple kit) is now to try and find the gap* > between the perception of this project and that of OS X and understand > why people are running away from *BSD in general on the desktop. > > * - in the case of Apple users, they're probably more familiar with > GAP. See, I just can't help myself. Perhaps I have a problem with > loafers and goatee beards. :-) Here's my two cents re that perceptual gap, as it pertains to your argument. Unix traditionalists are as dismissive of desktops as you are of fashion. A desktop is, to them, just as much of a crutch for getting work done as a goatee is, to you, a crutch for maintaining status among similarly image-concerned people. Now, there may not even be any pure Unix traditionalists left in the FreeBSD project anymore - but even so, the attitude remains in the culture (subconsciously, if you like,) as institutions resist change as time goes on. For that reason, those who control the source will always have that bias - they'll always be more interested in making the system "MP-friendly", for example, than making it "user-friendly". I'm not doing all this typing because I disagree with your points (in fact I'm still mostly undecided) - it's mainly a reaction to your style of argumentation. The point from my previous e-mail still stands. If you want to make a stronger argument, cut the hyperbole, quit the rhetorical questions that just sound whiny, and leave your antagonism at the door. If we pride ourselves on using BSD because we have good reasons for doing so, then our arguments for doing so damned well ought to be well-reasoned too. -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 21 21:40:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A8E16A4CE for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:40:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E662743D3F for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:40:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1CKkg2-0001i0-00; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:40:54 -0700 Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:40:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: change RPATH in existing executable X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:40:58 -0000 Any ideas on how to add another path to the RPATH in an existing executable? Examples of the files are: reed@puget:~$ file /usr/lib/libkdeinit_kcookiejar.so /usr/lib/libkdeinit_kcookiejar.so: ELF 32-bit LSB shared object, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), not stripped reed@puget:~$ objdump -x /usr/lib/libkdeinit_kcookiejar.so | grep -i rpath RPATH /usr/gcc3/lib:/usr/qt3/lib reed@puget:~$ file kde-config kde-config: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.0.0, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped reed@puget:~$ objdump -x kde-config | grep RPATH RPATH /usr/gcc3/lib:/usr/qt3/lib I found a program at http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-gcc@vger.rutgers.edu/msg00317.htm which compiled fine for me (under Linux and NetBSD), but it failed: reed@puget:~$ ./change-rpath kde-config kde-config:existing RPATH: /usr/gcc3/lib:/usr/qt3/lib reed@puget:~$ ./change-rpath kde-config /usr/gcc3/lib:/usr/qt3/lib:/usr/X11R6/lib kde-config:existing RPATH: /usr/gcc3/lib:/usr/qt3/lib new rpath '/usr/gcc3/lib:/usr/qt3/lib:/usr/X11R6/lib' too large; maximum length 26 I see that the tool wants to replace (for the same amount of characters) and not append. I also found elfsh (http://elfsh.segfault.net/) but I am not sure if it can handle this too. (I asked on that list a few hours ago, but the email never appeared to get to their list yet.) I would rather adjust the RPATH in the binary than adjust my environment. I guess I could use shorter library path names and symlinks, etc. I also know I can rebuild, but I wanted to try this first. Any ideas? Jeremy C. Reed open source, Unix, *BSD, Linux training http://www.pugetsoundtechnology.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 23 02:51:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AEC816A4CE for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 02:51:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.acecape.com (mail1.acecape.com [66.114.74.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C82B443D49 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 02:51:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9N2pMfQ016641 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 22:51:24 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 22:52:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: FreeBSD Chat List Message-ID: <20041022225143.H60043@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Funding marketting like Firefox did? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 02:51:25 -0000 Read this article how Firefox did a fund drive to collect funds for full page adds.. http://news.com.com/Firefox+smashes+funding+target/2100-1032_3-5422785.html?tag=nefd.top Couldn't the same be done with FreeBSD? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 23 08:30:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B41916A4CE for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:30:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gldis.ca (constans.gldis.ca [66.11.169.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D370243D1F for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:30:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gldisater@gldis.ca) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gldis.ca (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9N8bKIx040685; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 04:37:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gldisater@gldis.ca) From: Jeremy Faulkner To: Francisco Reyes In-Reply-To: <20041022225143.H60043@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <20041022225143.H60043@zoraida.natserv.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-XE3ONYiUEacwwTr0psHI" Message-Id: <1098499475.4097.1.camel@ocean-deep.gldis.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 04:33:55 +0000 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80rc4/524/Sun Oct 10 11:36:08 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on constans.gldis.ca X-Virus-Status: Clean cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Funding marketting like Firefox did? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:30:50 -0000 --=-XE3ONYiUEacwwTr0psHI Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 2004-10-23 at 02:52, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Read this article how Firefox did a fund drive to collect funds for full=20 > page adds.. >=20 > http://news.com.com/Firefox+smashes+funding+target/2100-1032_3-5422785.ht= ml?tag=3Dnefd.top >=20 >=20 > Couldn't the same be done with FreeBSD? FreeBSD doesn't have as broad an audience as Firefox does. --=20 Jeremy Faulkner --=-XE3ONYiUEacwwTr0psHI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBecWTfb0Lle2MIEIRAiPKAKCZ7hSQHX8cFDb+XNAgHSIAyVHzEwCeOJEQ uZ07OqBYBb7Qf8KAXvoHa1M= =PGP1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-XE3ONYiUEacwwTr0psHI--