From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 29 18:30:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5C9016A4CE for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:30:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dtype.org (dtype.org [64.71.163.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7278543D53 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:30:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from da-admin@li.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=zaphod.alt.org ident=list) by dtype.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C1URs-0002zN-00 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:30:40 +0000 Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:30:40 +0000 Message-ID: <20040829183040.4981.32402.Mailman@zaphod.alt.org> From: da-request@li.org To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Ack: no Sender: da-admin@li.org Errors-To: da-admin@li.org X-BeenThere: da@li.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk Subject: Mailman results for da X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:30:41 -0000 This is an automated response. There were problems with the email commands you sent to Mailman via the administrative address . To obtain instructions on valid Mailman email commands, send email to with the word "help" in the subject line or in the body of the message. If you want to reach the human being that manages this mailing list, please send your message to . The following is a detailed description of the problems. >>>>> Subject line ignored: >>>>> Re: Bad Request Command? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Command? ------=_NextPart_000_0016----=_NextPart_000_0016 Command? 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owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 30 09:20:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0ACD16A4CE; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:20:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from comp.chem.msu.su (comp.chem.msu.su [158.250.32.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC0F43D69; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:20:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: from comp.chem.msu.su (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by comp.chem.msu.su (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i7U9K56E025368; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:20:05 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: (from yar@localhost) by comp.chem.msu.su (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i7U9K5JJ025363; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:20:05 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from yar) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:20:04 +0400 From: Yar Tikhiy To: fs@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040830092004.GC22366@comp.chem.msu.su> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: A typical bug around VOP_GETPAGES? X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:20:10 -0000 Hi folks, Users' complaints about HFS for FreeBSD not compiling again encouraged me to hack up a yet another patchlevel allowing for recent changes in our beloved OS :-) This time fsx started to fail upon a mmapped access near the end of an HFS file with diagnostics that non-zero data were found beyond EOF (which is against POSIX.) I'm confused by this. HFS relies on the default VOP_GETPAGES handler and hence I used to believe that the kernel should just bread() the last block of the file, copy the appropriate part of it to the process' page, and zero out the rest of the page. Fsx found no other problems in a reasonable time, which meant plain vanilla reading from (and writing to) the FS worked OK. Perhaps anyone has a quick idea where to look for problematic code? -- Yar From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 30 09:35:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84CC016A4D2 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:35:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7825C43D2F for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:35:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 6E0695C95D; Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:35:20 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: fs@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040830093520.GL31434@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: prevent easy panics with invariants. X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 09:35:20 -0000 A patch like this (untested) is needed, otherwise a messup calling mount will panic the system way too easily. Basically, vfs_freeopt will ASSERT: KASSERT(opt->value == NULL && opt->len) But because we set opt->len before we set opt->value we blow up hard if there is an error in the nmount code path. Index: vfs_mount.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/kern/vfs_mount.c,v retrieving revision 1.138 diff -u -r1.138 vfs_mount.c --- vfs_mount.c 30 Jul 2004 22:08:52 -0000 1.138 +++ vfs_mount.c 30 Aug 2004 09:32:09 -0000 @@ -274,7 +274,7 @@ optlen = auio->uio_iov[i + 1].iov_len; opt->name = malloc(namelen, M_MOUNT, M_WAITOK); opt->value = NULL; - opt->len = optlen; + opt->len = 0; /* * Do this early, so jumps to "bad" will free the current @@ -308,6 +308,7 @@ goto bad; } if (optlen != 0) { + opt->len = optlen; opt->value = malloc(optlen, M_MOUNT, M_WAITOK); if (auio->uio_segflg == UIO_SYSSPACE) { bcopy(auio->uio_iov[i + 1].iov_base, opt->value, From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 3 22:44:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E4A16A4CE; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:44:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from maui.ebi.ac.uk (maui.ebi.ac.uk [193.62.196.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84AC743D2F; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:44:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kreil@ebi.ac.uk) Received: from puffin.ebi.ac.uk (puffin.ebi.ac.uk [193.62.196.89]) by maui.ebi.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i83MhuF10099; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:43:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from puffin.ebi.ac.uk (kreil@localhost) by puffin.ebi.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i83MhuA02066; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:43:56 +0100 Message-Id: <200409032243.i83MhuA02066@puffin.ebi.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: David Kreil In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 14 Aug 2004 06:01:52 BST." <200408140501.i7E51qi03762@puffin.ebi.ac.uk> X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 23:43:56 +0100 From: David Kreil X-EBI-Information: This email is scanned using www.mailscanner.info. X-EBI: Found to be clean X-EBI-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-8, required 5, HABEAS_SWE -8.00) cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gbde blackening feature - how can on disk keys be "destroyed" thoroughly? X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:44:02 -0000 Hi, >From what I can see so far, they are simply overwritten with zeros - is that right? If so, the blackening feature would be much weakend, as once can read up to 20 layers of data even under random data (and more under zeros). I would be most grateful for comments, or suggestions of where/how one could extend the code to do a secure wip of the key areas. Also, I know practically nothing of how I could to best get FreeBSD to physically write to disk (configurability of hardware cache etc permitting). With best regards, David. > > Hello, > > I was wondering whether someone knowledgable about gbde internals could tell > me how the keys are being destroyed on request under the "blackening feature". > Ideally, I'd like them to be overwritten with random data at least 20 times > independently, but I suspect it may well be done in a different way. I'd be > grateful for learning how the blackening works (and why!). > > With many thanks for your help in advance, > > David Kreil. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr David Philip Kreil ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ Research Fellow `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) University of Cambridge (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' ++44 1223 764107, fax 333992 _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dpk20 (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 3 23:18:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C326716A4CE; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:18:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from maui.ebi.ac.uk (maui.ebi.ac.uk [193.62.196.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C4C43D4C; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:18:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kreil@ebi.ac.uk) Received: from puffin.ebi.ac.uk (puffin.ebi.ac.uk [193.62.196.89]) by maui.ebi.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i83NIdF28852; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:18:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from puffin.ebi.ac.uk (kreil@localhost) by puffin.ebi.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i83NIcu05679; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:18:38 +0100 Message-Id: <200409032318.i83NIcu05679@puffin.ebi.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Vijay Kaul" , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-geom@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 03 Sep 2004 18:05:14 CDT." X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 00:18:38 +0100 From: David Kreil X-EBI-Information: This email is scanned using www.mailscanner.info. X-EBI: Found to be clean X-EBI-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-8, required 5, HABEAS_SWE -8.00) cc: David Kreil Subject: Re: gbde blackening feature - how can on disk keys be "destroyed" thoroughly? X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 23:18:42 -0000 Dear Vijay, > I guess I took this off the list. It's OT, in my oppinion. Oh. Anywhere more appropriate to send it to that you could suggest at all? Now also trying freebsd-geom - would that have been the better place to send this to to start with? > I don't know much of anything about data recovery. But, if you can recover > data under 20 layers of random writes or 20 iterations of 0s, then how > *can* you wipe a hard drive? Short, preferably, of setting fire to it :D Sigh, tricky, yes. Apparently wiping with >20 repeats of random noise does the trick (say from /dev/random or arc4random generated). The difficulty with modern file systems / operating systems / disk drives is actually getting the patterns written to the magnetic media. I'm writing to the list because both assessing whether there really is a risk and how to fix it requires quite a bot of knowledge that I lack, like knowing where to look in the gbde code (maybe I misunderstood?), or writing code that is disk driver/hardware caching aware and can hence force a flush. I'd be most grateful for any help or suggestions. With best regards, David. > > > > Hi, > > > >> From what I can see so far, they are simply overwritten with zeros - is > >> that > > right? If so, the blackening feature would be much weakend, as once can > > read > > up to 20 layers of data even under random data (and more under zeros). I > > would > > be most grateful for comments, or suggestions of where/how one could > > extend > > the code to do a secure wip of the key areas. Also, I know practically > > nothing > > of how I could to best get FreeBSD to physically write to disk > > (configurability of hardware cache etc permitting). > > > > With best regards, > > > > David. > > > >> > >> Hello, > >> > >> I was wondering whether someone knowledgable about gbde internals could > >> tell > >> me how the keys are being destroyed on request under the "blackening > >> feature". > >> Ideally, I'd like them to be overwritten with random data at least 20 > >> times > >> independently, but I suspect it may well be done in a different way. > >> I'd be > >> grateful for learning how the blackening works (and why!). > >> > >> With many thanks for your help in advance, > >> > >> David Kreil. > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Dr David Philip Kreil ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ > > Research Fellow `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) > > University of Cambridge (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' > > ++44 1223 764107, fax 333992 _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' > > www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dpk20 (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr David Philip Kreil ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ Research Fellow `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) University of Cambridge (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' ++44 1223 764107, fax 333992 _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dpk20 (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 3 23:40:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D82916A4CE; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:40:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD8B43D1F; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:40:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from zettel@acm.org) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (bgp966574bgs.derbrn01.mi.comcast.net[68.41.108.205]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2004090323403501600i43oce>; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:40:36 +0000 From: Len Zettel To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:41:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200409032318.i83NIcu05679@puffin.ebi.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <200409032318.i83NIcu05679@puffin.ebi.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200409031941.18668.zettel@acm.org> cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org cc: David Kreil cc: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org cc: Vijay Kaul Subject: Re: gbde blackening feature - how can on disk keys be "destroyed" thoroughly? X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 23:40:37 -0000 On Friday 03 September 2004 07:18 pm, David Kreil wrote: > Dear Vijay, > > > I guess I took this off the list. It's OT, in my oppinion. > > Oh. Anywhere more appropriate to send it to that you could suggest at all? > Now also trying freebsd-geom - would that have been the better place to > send this to to start with? > > > I don't know much of anything about data recovery. But, if you can > > recover data under 20 layers of random writes or 20 iterations of 0s, > > then how *can* you wipe a hard drive? Short, preferably, of setting fire > > to it :D > While i am not an expert in this area, I can not help but wonder--- Who are you worried about recovering the data, under what circumstances? My best guess is that recovering anything from even _one_ data over-write is going to require that the recoverer have physical posession of the drive and very sophisticated equipment indeed. That means they have to be some branch of a govermnment. If you are going to attract attention of that caliber there are likely a lot of other easier means of finding out what you are up to. Otherwise, a good hot fire ought to be pretty final even for the CIA. -LenZ- > Sigh, tricky, yes. Apparently wiping with >20 repeats of random noise does > the trick (say from /dev/random or arc4random generated). The difficulty > with modern file systems / operating systems / disk drives is actually > getting the patterns written to the magnetic media. > > I'm writing to the list because both assessing whether there really is a > risk and how to fix it requires quite a bot of knowledge that I lack, like > knowing where to look in the gbde code (maybe I misunderstood?), or writing > code that is disk driver/hardware caching aware and can hence force a > flush. > > I'd be most grateful for any help or suggestions. > > With best regards, > > David. > > > > Hi, > > > > > >> From what I can see so far, they are simply overwritten with zeros - > > >> is that > > > > > > right? If so, the blackening feature would be much weakend, as once can > > > read > > > up to 20 layers of data even under random data (and more under zeros). > > > I would > > > be most grateful for comments, or suggestions of where/how one could > > > extend > > > the code to do a secure wip of the key areas. Also, I know practically > > > nothing > > > of how I could to best get FreeBSD to physically write to disk > > > (configurability of hardware cache etc permitting). > > > > > > With best regards, > > > > > > David. > > > > > >> Hello, > > >> > > >> I was wondering whether someone knowledgable about gbde internals > > >> could tell > > >> me how the keys are being destroyed on request under the "blackening > > >> feature". > > >> Ideally, I'd like them to be overwritten with random data at least 20 > > >> times > > >> independently, but I suspect it may well be done in a different way. > > >> I'd be > > >> grateful for learning how the blackening works (and why!). > > >> > > >> With many thanks for your help in advance, > > >> > > >> David Kreil. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >- Dr David Philip Kreil ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ > > > Research Fellow `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) > > > University of Cambridge (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' > > > ++44 1223 764107, fax 333992 _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' > > > www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dpk20 (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > > > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > -- > > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Dr David Philip Kreil ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ > Research Fellow `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) > University of Cambridge (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' > ++44 1223 764107, fax 333992 _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' > www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dpk20 (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 3 23:56:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C57616A4CE; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:56:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BFBA43D4C; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:56:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vkaul@ma.rr.com) Received: from gogobera.ma.rr.com (dhcp024-160-209-216.ma.rr.com [24.160.209.216])i83NuUVd020712; Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:56:30 -0400 (EDT) To: "Len Zettel" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <200409032318.i83NIcu05679@puffin.ebi.ac.uk> <200409031941.18668.zettel@acm.org> Message-ID: From: "Vijay Kaul" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 18:55:47 -0500 In-Reply-To: <200409031941.18668.zettel@acm.org> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3869) X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org cc: David Kreil cc: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gbde blackening feature - how can on disk keys be "destroyed" thoroughly? X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 23:56:38 -0000 On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:41:18 -0400, Len Zettel wrote: > While i am not an expert in this area, I can not help but wonder--- > Who are you worried about recovering the data, under what > circumstances? My best guess is that recovering anything from > even _one_ data over-write is going to require that the recoverer have > physical posession of the drive and very sophisticated equipment > indeed. That means they have to be some branch of a govermnment. > If you are going to attract attention of that caliber there are likely a > lot > of other easier means of finding out what you are up to. Otherwise, a > good hot fire ought to be pretty final even for the CIA. > -LenZ- I used to work in a lab and a co-worker had be a submarier for the US. He said that one of their projects was to figure out how to best destroy CDs for the government. Supposedly the CDs were recoverable even after cross-shredding. They either decided that melting them over a "heatsink" (coffee mug) in a microwave (also makes a nice ash tray) or going at them with an acetaline torch was the final solution. From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 4 00:36:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B9416A4CE; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:36:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from maui.ebi.ac.uk (maui.ebi.ac.uk [193.62.196.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF76E43D48; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:36:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kreil@ebi.ac.uk) Received: from puffin.ebi.ac.uk (puffin.ebi.ac.uk [193.62.196.89]) by maui.ebi.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i840alF08011; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 01:36:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from puffin.ebi.ac.uk (kreil@localhost) by puffin.ebi.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i840ahM15268; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 01:36:43 +0100 Message-Id: <200409040036.i840ahM15268@puffin.ebi.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Len Zettel In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:41:18 EDT." <200409031941.18668.zettel@acm.org> X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 01:36:43 +0100 From: David Kreil X-EBI-Information: This email is scanned using www.mailscanner.info. X-EBI: Found to be clean X-EBI-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-8, required 5, HABEAS_SWE -8.00) cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org cc: David Kreil cc: freebsd-geom@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Vijay Kaul Subject: Re: gbde blackening feature - how can on-disk keys be "destroyed" thoroughly? X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 00:36:52 -0000 Dear LenZ, > Who are you worried about recovering the data, under what circumstances? The value of the blackening feature should be that you can give away the drive and your password, say, under pressure by the [court|mafia|whoever], without compromising any confidential information on the drive. > My best guess is that recovering anything from > even _one_ data over-write is going to require that the recoverer have > physical posession of the drive and very sophisticated equipment > indeed. That means they have to be some branch of a govermnment. Hmm, I much doubt that. True, you need a clean room and a magnetic force microscope. Even standard data recovery firms like www.dataclinic.co.uk, however, can recover data under up to 8 overwrites. (NB: No affiliation or recommendation there.) Government agencies can go deeper (20x or possibly more but it gets increasingly more difficult). > If you are going to attract attention of that caliber there are likely a lot > of other easier means of finding out what you are up to. Sure, like pointing an antenna at my computer while its running ;-) I guess my main point is: If there is a blackening feature which is designed to give users peace of mind about disclosing their password under pressure, and it is known that data can be recovered underneath simple overwrites for a pack of $$ but that writing a random pattern, say 30x, makes the delete safe, I'd much argue in favour of doing the latter. As the areas are small, this should be really quick, too. The problem is getting the multiple overwrites out to the magnetic media, rather than them sitting somewhere in a cache buffer in computer or drive memory. > Otherwise, a good hot fire ought to be pretty final even for the CIA. Actually, the above firm specializes in "Track 0 damage, fire damage, flood damage, impact damage and overwritten data"... So, if a commercial enterprise can offer this, I don't think I'm unduly concerned. Depending on the country, dissolving the magnetic layer in acid or finely grinding it off are considered "final" for classified materials. Now, I'm not interested in an exercise of extreme paranoia. If overwritten keys can, however, easily be recovered then I'd consider this a relative weakness compared to all the sophisticated effort that has gone into the design of gbde and its encryption algorithms. My question hence remains, can someone more knowledgable than me maybe comment on whether I have misunderstood what gbde does, or else how the strength of the blackening could please be improved (i.e., how to do a 30x random wipe bypassing cache in a hardware independent manner)? With best regards, David. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr David Philip Kreil ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ Research Fellow `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) University of Cambridge (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' ++44 1223 764107, fax 333992 _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dpk20 (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 4 08:03:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A9516A4CF; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 08:03:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F87743D2F; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 08:03:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk ([195.176.4.36]) by phk.freebsd.dk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i8483H3r007000; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 08:03:32 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id i8483BVM006639; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 10:03:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: David Kreil From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 03 Sep 2004 23:43:56 BST." <200409032243.i83MhuA02066@puffin.ebi.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 10:03:11 +0200 Message-ID: <6638.1094284991@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gbde blackening feature - how can on disk keys be "destroyed" thoroughly? X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:03:36 -0000 In message <200409032243.i83MhuA02066@puffin.ebi.ac.uk>, David Kreil writes: > >Hi, > >>From what I can see so far, they are simply overwritten with zeros - is that >right? If so, the blackening feature would be much weakend, as once can read >up to 20 layers of data even under random data (and more under zeros). I would >be most grateful for comments, or suggestions of where/how one could extend >the code to do a secure wip of the key areas. Also, I know practically nothing >of how I could to best get FreeBSD to physically write to disk >(configurability of hardware cache etc permitting). On a modern disk there is no sequence of writes that will guarantee you that your data is iretriveable lost. Even if you rewrite a thousand times, you cannot guard yourself against the sector being replaced by a bad block spare after the first write. If your threat-analysis indicates this is a serious threat for you, you should arrange for simple physical destruction of your disk to be available. Most modern disks have one or more holes in the metal only covered by a metalic sticker. Pouring sulfuric acid through those openings is a good start. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 4 23:33:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9B616A4CE; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 23:33:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from maui.ebi.ac.uk (maui.ebi.ac.uk [193.62.196.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6ED43D3F; Sat, 4 Sep 2004 23:33:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kreil@ebi.ac.uk) Received: from puffin.ebi.ac.uk (puffin.ebi.ac.uk [193.62.196.89]) by maui.ebi.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) with ESMTP id i84NX0F19663; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 00:33:00 +0100 (BST) Received: from puffin.ebi.ac.uk (kreil@localhost) by puffin.ebi.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i84NWxC17377; Sun, 5 Sep 2004 00:32:59 +0100 Message-Id: <200409042332.i84NWxC17377@puffin.ebi.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 04 Sep 2004 10:03:11 +0200." <6638.1094284991@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 00:32:59 +0100 From: David Kreil X-EBI-Information: This email is scanned using www.mailscanner.info. X-EBI: Found to be clean X-EBI-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-8, required 5, HABEAS_SWE -8.00) cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org cc: David Kreil cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gbde blackening feature - how can on disk keys be "destroyed" thoroughly? X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 23:33:04 -0000 Dear Poul-Henning, Thank you very much for your comments! > >From what I can see so far, they are simply overwritten with zeros - is > >that > >right? If so, the blackening feature would be much weakend, as one can read > >up to 20 layers of data even under random data (and more under zeros). > >I would > >be most grateful for comments, or suggestions of where/how one could extend > >the code to do a secure wipe of the key areas. Also, I know practically > >nothing > >of how I could to best get FreeBSD to physically write to disk > >(configurability of hardware cache etc permitting). > > On a modern disk there is no sequence of writes that will guarantee > you that your data is iretriveable lost. > Even if you rewrite a thousand times, you cannot guard yourself against > the sector being replaced by a bad block spare after the first write. Good point. In the rare chance event that this happens, it would indeed be bad news as an attacker would then only have to scan the bad blocks for possible copies of the key. > If your threat-analysis indicates this is a serious threat for you, > you should arrange for simple physical destruction of your disk to > be available. > > Most modern disks have one or more holes in the metal only covered > by a metalic sticker. Pouring sulfuric acid through those openings > is a good start. Hmm... to me, the main benefit of the blackening feature would seem to be the possibility of compliance with a court directive without disclosing confidential data. With multiple key holders, any particular person can maintain that they have done all they could to comply. Not only is the optics of having your disks are found in vats of sulfuric acid rather bad, it's also more unlikely that "a moment of opportunity" arises. A simple improvement on the present situation would already be if the keys were not overwritten with zeros but with random bits. I don't know how difficult it would be to attempt to physically write random bits multiple times but it would much strengthen the feature apart from the rare cases when the sectors of the masterkey have been remapped into bad blocks. As rightly pointed out in the manpages, the better the encryption gets, the more likely are attacks via other routes. Reading a few layers of the current masterkey location + all bad blocks with an MFM should cost no more than a few thousand $. What do you think? Is the required effort disproportional to the intended value of the blackening feature? With many thanks again for your help and best regards, David. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr David Philip Kreil ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ Research Fellow `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) University of Cambridge (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' ++44 1223 764107, fax 333992 _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dpk20 (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-'