From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 8 22:48:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F9EC16A4CE for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 22:48:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from heceta.db.net (heceta.db.net [142.46.199.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF30343D46 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 22:48:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from db@db.net) Received: from heceta.db.net ([142.46.199.182] helo=localhost ident=mailnull) by heceta.db.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.8) id 1CyeCI-000GQC-7l; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:51:06 -0500 Received: from localhost.dbn ([127.0.0.1] helo=night.dbn) by night.db.net with esmtp (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1CyeAF-000JrB-Dg; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:48:59 -0500 Received: (from db@localhost) by night.dbn (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j18MmxHk076330; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:48:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from db@night.dbn) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:48:59 -0500 From: Diane Bruce To: Dan Langille Message-ID: <20050208224859.GA76090@night.dbn> References: <41E3D0B5.20857.880DCE1D@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41E3D0B5.20857.880DCE1D@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ottawa : OCUUG meets this Thursday X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:48:55 -0000 Hi folks, On Thursday, 10 February, OCUUG meets at 6pm, Colonnade Pizza & Restaurant, 280 Metcalfe (at Gilmour). see http://www.ocuug.on.ca/) You can find a map from here: http://www.ottawaplus.ca/portal/profile.do?profileID=49236 - Diane From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 17:25:30 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 065BB16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:25:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp204.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp204.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [216.136.130.127]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CF2AC43D4C for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:25:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ricardo_bsd@yahoo.com.br) Received: from unknown (HELO ?201.0.14.105?) (ricardo?bsd@201.0.14.105 with plain) by smtp204.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2005 17:25:28 -0000 Message-ID: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 15:25:21 -0200 From: Ricardo Alves dos Reis User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050203) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:25:30 -0000 Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. You can find the rules of the competition in this document. http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 18:40:01 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C94116A4CF for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:40:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ptb-relay02.plus.net (ptb-relay02.plus.net [212.159.14.213]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450CE43D48 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:40:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marko@freebsd.org) Received: from movens.plus.com ([80.229.231.20] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ptb-relay02.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1Cywkm-000B2Z-Uo; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:39:57 +0000 Message-ID: <420A5898.2010508@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:38:16 +0000 From: Mark Ovens User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 7.0 (Windows/20050209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ricardo Alves dos Reis References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> In-Reply-To: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-0, 08/02/2005), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:40:01 -0000 Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The > FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo > design. You can find the rules of the competition in this document. > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? > So, the FreeBSD Project is giving in to the narrow-minded, puritanical, moral minority who, despite their preachings are not very well-informed as they don't know the difference between 'demon' and 'daemon'. Is this a sign (or a victim perhaps?) of the "growing conservatism sweeping Bush's America"? The Mozilla project had/has to put up with similar crap about it's logo because numpties think that the red star represents Communism. Oh, and since we're being all Politically Correct.... * The logo must not exploit or offend a person's sex, race, religion, morality, culture , nor be salacious or pornographic. we should drop 'BSD' from the name because, over the years, plenty of people have assumed that *BSD is some form of kinky sex outfit - same problem, they don't know the difference between BSD and BDSM. I see that NetBSD and OpenBSD have already dropped Beastie - the latter adopting a butt-ugly fish (the style of which implies bloated fatware to me). Beastie has been the BSD symbol for nearly 17 years (based on Kirk's copyright date of 1988) and, as far as I'm concerned it always will be. Just my €0.02 of course. Mark --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0506-0, 08/02/2005 Tested on: 09/02/2005 18:38:18 avast! - copyright (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 18:46:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F9616A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:46:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6876E43D2D for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:46:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dacoto@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id f1so1156831rne for ; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 10:46:43 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=t7CJQGBAKVSD5K3NEe+3tgd/sX/rtkYTieqQlp6zRD1X0n3NFfA5FtJMHgojUaWPBxXj6/h1wDoGVVr1zbvRP2v2sq61JFVTeLI7/aMQ9rAluhUu0zGmmh3AGUcrL0lym356WuJK/JwcCtjUjywZ5C7kg4IW9P300XY1fYtIIW8= Received: by 10.38.24.19 with SMTP id 19mr252020rnx; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 10:46:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.71.76 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:46:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:46:42 -0600 From: "David Board (dacoto.com)" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420A5898.2010508@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> <420A5898.2010508@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: david@dacoto.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:46:44 -0000 I agree 100%. Thank you for the very well written post. Dave On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:38:16 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: > > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with > > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The > > FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo > > design. You can find the rules of the competition in this document. > > > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? > > >=20 > So, the FreeBSD Project is giving in to the narrow-minded, > puritanical, moral minority who, despite their preachings are not very > well-informed as they don't know the difference between 'demon' and > 'daemon'. Is this a sign (or a victim perhaps?) of the "growing > conservatism sweeping Bush's America"? >=20 > The Mozilla project had/has to put up with similar crap about it's logo > because numpties think that the red star represents Communism. >=20 > Oh, and since we're being all Politically Correct.... >=20 > * The logo must not exploit or offend a person's sex, race, > religion, morality, culture , nor be salacious or > pornographic. >=20 > we should drop 'BSD' from the name because, over the years, plenty of > people have assumed that *BSD is some form of kinky sex outfit - same > problem, they don't know the difference between BSD and BDSM. >=20 > I see that NetBSD and OpenBSD have already dropped Beastie - the latter > adopting a butt-ugly fish (the style of which implies bloated fatware to > me). >=20 > Beastie has been the BSD symbol for nearly 17 years (based on Kirk's > copyright date of 1988) and, as far as I'm concerned it always will be. >=20 > Just my =E2=82=AC0.02 of course. >=20 > Mark >=20 > --- > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 0506-0, 08/02/2005 > Tested on: 09/02/2005 18:38:18 > avast! - copyright (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g" >=20 --=20 David Board david@dacoto.com www.dacoto.com 816.686.8389 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 19:01:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F57716A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:01:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2B843D49 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:01:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8E36128; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:01:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 89744-06; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:01:02 -0600 (CST) Received: by makeworld.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8F6F86110; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:01:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8815C60F0; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:01:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:01:02 -0600 (CST) From: RacerX To: Ricardo Alves dos Reis In-Reply-To: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> Message-ID: <20050209125930.M89799@makeworld.com> References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:01:08 -0000 Oh noooooo. Now we'll end up with some *gag* flackie logo like NetBSD did. NOTE - I chose "flakey" as to NOT offend anyone. I have a few colorfull metaphores I'm using as I type this. My vote... Let it alone!!! Best regards, Chris On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The > FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. > You can find the rules of the competition in this document. > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 19:16:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06D516A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:16:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1CB43D39 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:16:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from beowuff@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a41so2016974rng for ; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:16:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Rb8gRNoVwXsZ9OrT7n2ytM66MjZYYQDGexfbl6h2haW5vGkIxB6DkyX9+RY3UOP61jyrt26+XdLuCzufcW/SKCd9Hty+97jJ+gSEdhZnVZWbarwWEQHNos+83K4sw+bT6i4kdFBh6py3dK2xrkYtv+ZpOqWrdfq3WMOpFzok6E4= Received: by 10.38.149.45 with SMTP id w45mr18645rnd; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:16:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.24.2 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:16:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:16:09 -0800 From: beowuff To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050209125930.M89799@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> <20050209125930.M89799@makeworld.com> Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: beowuff List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:16:55 -0000 All the sudden, I feel like FreeBSD is getting "dumbed down" to be more like MS Windows... On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:01:02 -0600 (CST), RacerX wrote: > Oh noooooo. Now we'll end up with some *gag* flackie logo like NetBSD did. > > NOTE - I chose "flakey" as to NOT offend anyone. I have a few colorfull > metaphores I'm using as I type this. > > My vote... Let it alone!!! > > Best regards, > Chris > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: > > > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with > > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The > > FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. > > You can find the rules of the competition in this document. > > > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 19:22:44 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F99D16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:22:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq1.home.nl (smtpq1.home.nl [213.51.128.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA4343D2F for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:22:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.134] (port=49044 helo=smtp3.home.nl) by smtpq1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CyxQA-000342-ME; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:22:42 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:35047 helo=192.168.1.100) by smtp3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CyxQ6-0002LX-Q9; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:22:38 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: beowuff In-Reply-To: References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> <20050209125930.M89799@makeworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: SiteTronics Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:22:38 +0100 Message-Id: <1107976958.4741.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:22:44 -0000 On Wed, 2005-02-09 at 11:16 -0800, beowuff wrote: > All the sudden, I feel like FreeBSD is getting "dumbed down" to be > more like MS Windows... Guys, calm down. You don't even know the context (this has obviously been leaked from somewhere) and haven't gotten any official guidance. Why don't you all just sit on your hands and wait for someone from core to please clear this up. Hint hint. --Devon > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:01:02 -0600 (CST), RacerX wrote: > > Oh noooooo. Now we'll end up with some *gag* flackie logo like NetBSD did. > > > > NOTE - I chose "flakey" as to NOT offend anyone. I have a few colorfull > > metaphores I'm using as I type this. > > > > My vote... Let it alone!!! > > > > Best regards, > > Chris > > > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: > > > > > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with > > > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The > > > FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. > > > You can find the rules of the competition in this document. > > > > > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 19:31:17 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0689A16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:31:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ptb-relay01.plus.net (ptb-relay01.plus.net [212.159.14.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85EF43D41 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:31:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marko@freebsd.org) Received: from movens.plus.com ([80.229.231.20] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ptb-relay01.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1CyxYR-000N8N-PC; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:31:15 +0000 Message-ID: <420A64A0.1000908@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:29:36 +0000 From: Mark Ovens User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 7.0 (Windows/20050209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Devon H. O'Dell" References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> <20050209125930.M89799@makeworld.com> <1107976958.4741.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <1107976958.4741.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-0, 08/02/2005), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:31:17 -0000 Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > On Wed, 2005-02-09 at 11:16 -0800, beowuff wrote: >> All the sudden, I feel like FreeBSD is getting "dumbed down" to be >> more like MS Windows... > > Guys, calm down. You don't even know the context (this has obviously > been leaked from somewhere) and haven't gotten any official guidance. > Why don't you all just sit on your hands and wait for someone from core > to please clear this up. > Um, the URL the OP linked to http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt is by: Jun Kuriyama , on behalf of The FreeBSD Core Team . Mark > Hint hint. > > --Devon > >> On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:01:02 -0600 (CST), RacerX wrote: >> > Oh noooooo. Now we'll end up with some *gag* flackie logo like NetBSD did. >> > >> > NOTE - I chose "flakey" as to NOT offend anyone. I have a few colorfull >> > metaphores I'm using as I type this. >> > >> > My vote... Let it alone!!! >> > >> > Best regards, >> > Chris >> > >> > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: >> > >> > > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with >> > > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The >> > > FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. >> > > You can find the rules of the competition in this document. >> > > >> > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >> > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >> > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >> > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0506-0, 08/02/2005 Tested on: 09/02/2005 19:29:37 avast! - copyright (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 19:32:57 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D2716A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:32:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.192]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C0D43D45 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:32:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jcapote@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 58so1152694wri for ; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:32:56 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; b=anDjzNUgRJuWAUJ08mpzktGayRwdxWz2jdfrh4Bw/lwvo4CKfL9vFLmCAT7JtyCwEulCj7z7EyudZhLlXTeLB/KNvEL6kbmsg3AmJYOQW6wHCxf3zbNuLlz38/6KOgkCiC9ZKPlksMgqrfC5CHWuIB6TBbJFDQBO7H7nEzY5sF4= Received: by 10.54.53.57 with SMTP id b57mr153540wra; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([65.10.15.61]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTP id 35sm52737wra.2005.02.09.11.32.55; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:32:56 -0800 (PST) From: Julio Capote To: "Devon H. O'Dell" In-Reply-To: <1107976958.4741.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> <20050209125930.M89799@makeworld.com> <1107976958.4741.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:35:27 -0500 Message-Id: <1107977727.699.0.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:32:57 -0000 Put in my vote for leaving it alone...beastie rocks! On Wed, 2005-02-09 at 20:22 +0100, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > On Wed, 2005-02-09 at 11:16 -0800, beowuff wrote: > > All the sudden, I feel like FreeBSD is getting "dumbed down" to be > > more like MS Windows... > > Guys, calm down. You don't even know the context (this has obviously > been leaked from somewhere) and haven't gotten any official guidance. > Why don't you all just sit on your hands and wait for someone from core > to please clear this up. > > Hint hint. > > --Devon > > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:01:02 -0600 (CST), RacerX wrote: > > > Oh noooooo. Now we'll end up with some *gag* flackie logo like NetBSD did. > > > > > > NOTE - I chose "flakey" as to NOT offend anyone. I have a few colorfull > > > metaphores I'm using as I type this. > > > > > > My vote... Let it alone!!! > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Chris > > > > > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with > > > > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The > > > > FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. > > > > You can find the rules of the competition in this document. > > > > > > > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 19:33:40 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249E016A4CE; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:33:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq2.home.nl (smtpq2.home.nl [213.51.128.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9BB43D48; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:33:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.136] (port=51017 helo=smtp5.home.nl) by smtpq2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cyxak-0007gS-HJ; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:33:38 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:35166 helo=192.168.1.100) by smtp5.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cyxah-00023C-O2; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:33:35 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: Mark Ovens In-Reply-To: <420A64A0.1000908@freebsd.org> References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> <20050209125930.M89799@makeworld.com> <1107976958.4741.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> <420A64A0.1000908@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: SiteTronics Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:33:35 +0100 Message-Id: <1107977615.4741.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:33:40 -0000 On Wed, 2005-02-09 at 19:29 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-02-09 at 11:16 -0800, beowuff wrote: > >> All the sudden, I feel like FreeBSD is getting "dumbed down" to be > >> more like MS Windows... > > > > Guys, calm down. You don't even know the context (this has obviously > > been leaked from somewhere) and haven't gotten any official guidance. > > Why don't you all just sit on your hands and wait for someone from core > > to please clear this up. > > > > Um, the URL the OP linked to > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt is by: > > Jun Kuriyama , on behalf of > The FreeBSD Core Team . > > Mark I realize this, but the original poster is obviously NOT a core member. and clearly has questions about the nature of the site as well. Note the large number of question marks in his post. Wait for someone from core to clear this up. I suspect this is not the whole story. Namely: >> > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? --Devon > > Hint hint. > > > > --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 19:44:24 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C93E16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:44:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp811.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp811.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3879543D48 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:44:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.27.163 with login) by smtp811.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2005 19:44:24 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:44:22 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> <420A5898.2010508@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <420A5898.2010508@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502091144.23145.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: Mark Ovens Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:44:24 -0000 On Wednesday 09 February 2005 10:38 am, Mark Ovens wrote: > Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: > > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with > > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why > > The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new > > logo design. You can find the rules of the competition in this > > document. > > > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? > > So, the FreeBSD Project is giving in to the narrow-minded, > puritanical, moral minority who, despite their preachings are not > very well-informed as they don't know the difference between 'demon' > and 'daemon'. Is this a sign (or a victim perhaps?) of the "growing > conservatism sweeping Bush's America"? > > The Mozilla project had/has to put up with similar crap about it's > logo because numpties think that the red star represents Communism. > > Oh, and since we're being all Politically Correct.... > > * The logo must not exploit or offend a person's sex, race, > religion, morality, culture , nor be salacious or > pornographic. > > we should drop 'BSD' from the name because, over the years, plenty of > people have assumed that *BSD is some form of kinky sex outfit - same > problem, they don't know the difference between BSD and BDSM. > > I see that NetBSD and OpenBSD have already dropped Beastie - the > latter adopting a butt-ugly fish (the style of which implies bloated > fatware to me). Oh, I hardly see it that way. Do you think OpenBSD is "bloated fatware?" I think anyone who understands security enough to be interested in OpenBSD knows why Puffy is a blowfish. > Beastie has been the BSD symbol for nearly 17 years (based on Kirk's > copyright date of 1988) and, as far as I'm concerned it always will > be. I agree with most of what you said, but, hey, no need to slag on Puffy. I think he distinguishes OpenBSD and emphasizes its primary strength. - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 19:48:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACCFF16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:48:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836B843D41 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:48:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=yoda.datawok.com) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1CyxpC-0007xi-1s for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:48:34 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:49:00 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc0fc5f3d14dae12c2ab6fc75a1e381d72350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 Subject: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:48:34 -0000 I'd like to voice my support for the logo competition. I was particularly pleased to read a comment on Daemon News that Beastie would remain the mascot and that the logo and mascot are being separated. I am hopeful that this comment was accurate. ...now, if I could only draw...... Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 19:55:40 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C32F16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:55:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ptb-relay01.plus.net (ptb-relay01.plus.net [212.159.14.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE3D43D1F for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:55:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marko@freebsd.org) Received: from movens.plus.com ([80.229.231.20] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ptb-relay01.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1Cyxw2-0003e9-Ds; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:55:38 +0000 Message-ID: <420A6A57.5020702@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:53:59 +0000 From: Mark Ovens User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 7.0 (Windows/20050209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joshua Tinnin References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> <420A5898.2010508@freebsd.org> <200502091144.23145.krinklyfig@spymac.com> In-Reply-To: <200502091144.23145.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-0, 08/02/2005), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:55:40 -0000 Joshua Tinnin wrote: > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 10:38 am, Mark Ovens > wrote: >> I see that NetBSD and OpenBSD have already dropped Beastie - the >> latter adopting a butt-ugly fish (the style of which implies bloated >> fatware to me). > > Oh, I hardly see it that way. Do you think OpenBSD is "bloated fatware?" No, just my interpretation of what the logo _could_ be seen to represent. > I think anyone who understands security enough to be interested in > OpenBSD knows why Puffy is a blowfish. > Ah, so that's what it is. Never was much good at ichthyology ;-) Still looks butt-ugly though. Mark >> Beastie has been the BSD symbol for nearly 17 years (based on Kirk's >> copyright date of 1988) and, as far as I'm concerned it always will >> be. > > I agree with most of what you said, but, hey, no need to slag on Puffy. > I think he distinguishes OpenBSD and emphasizes its primary strength. > > - jt > --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0506-0, 08/02/2005 Tested on: 09/02/2005 19:54:00 avast! - copyright (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 19:57:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D3C16A4CE; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:57:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6BDB43D31; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:57:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1Cyxxj-0007bY-N7; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:57:23 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:57:50 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> <200502091144.23145.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <420A6A57.5020702@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <420A6A57.5020702@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502091357.50455.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bcba925a66bbab11475458aaa265d7e009350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 cc: Mark Ovens Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:57:25 -0000 On Wednesday 09 February 2005 01:53 pm, Mark Ovens wrote: > Joshua Tinnin wrote: > > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 10:38 am, Mark Ovens > > > > > > wrote: > >> I see that NetBSD and OpenBSD have already dropped Beastie - the > >> latter adopting a butt-ugly fish (the style of which implies > >> bloated fatware to me). > > > > Oh, I hardly see it that way. Do you think OpenBSD is "bloated > > fatware?" > > No, just my interpretation of what the logo _could_ be seen to > represent. > > > I think anyone who understands security enough to be interested in > > OpenBSD knows why Puffy is a blowfish. > > Ah, so that's what it is. Never was much good at ichthyology ;-) > > Still looks butt-ugly though. > > Mark Yes, and Windows 98 was soooo inviting! Sometimes, ugly is good. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 20:17:29 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9743616A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:17:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6E643D1D for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:17:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kjelderg@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z35so1126349rne for ; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 12:17:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=MHi/ilg99rD/tf5plXUId/n+otNCzpLobtjLdZkReSOroyeUu8VixUgcxhSAS/xwIZDnLHqtW4Ors5LAGsdmidtPUfIKlglj3p75STPn9gxI50QQE6dJfahr9gV3y4K/oC14+mfQ6DxU+9rkqZkSlRmLpj/4OoU3DKj5J4wSApk= Received: by 10.38.79.74 with SMTP id c74mr217636rnb; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 12:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.101.19 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:17:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:17:28 -0600 From: Eric Kjeldergaard To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200502091357.50455.algould@datawok.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> <200502091144.23145.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <420A6A57.5020702@freebsd.org> <200502091357.50455.algould@datawok.com> Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eric Kjeldergaard List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:17:29 -0000 I'm not so artistic, could someone make a logo of clippy for me and submit it? -- If I write a signature, my emails will appear more personalised. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 20:17:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8AF416A4CF for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:17:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.187]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B5F443D2F for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:17:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.27.163 with login) by smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2005 20:17:32 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:17:31 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> In-Reply-To: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502091217.32345.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:17:34 -0000 On Wednesday 09 February 2005 09:25 am, Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why > The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new > logo design. You can find the rules of the competition in this > document. > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? http://www.bgfoods.com/underwood/underwood_about.asp http://www.reddevil.com/ http://www.dickinson.edu/departments/sports/fbmain.htm http://www.lib.duke.edu/archives/history/why_blue_devil.html "Today the origin of the university mascot is virtually forgotten even though its instant, national recognition has long been established. With the popular Red Devil mascot frequently being challenged throughout the country, the origin of Duke's Blue Devil is one of the most often requested items of information in the University Archives. Questioners are universally surprised to discover its origin is more military and patriotic than religious." http://www.phillyburbs.com/devil/sports.shtml Why are you playing into what religious people think? Is Duke changing their mascot? You're giving in to ignorance at no benefit to the OS itself. The only perceived benefit is that ignorant people wouldn't be offended. Fantastic. Now you have them as your user base. - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 21:09:44 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 023AF16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:09:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A89043D1D for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:09:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from [192.168.1.150] (really [64.180.28.217]) by priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP <20050209210943.ZOCU10693.priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net@[192.168.1.150]>; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:09:43 -0700 Message-ID: <420A7C18.5010202@telus.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 13:09:44 -0800 From: Peter Kieser User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ricardo Alves dos Reis References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> In-Reply-To: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:09:44 -0000 That's bullcrap.. --Peter Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The > FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo > design. You can find the rules of the competition in this document. > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 21:14:44 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4605E16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:14:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.156.12.53]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1729543D3F for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:14:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5186746B4F; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:14:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:13:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: "Andrew L. Gould" In-Reply-To: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:14:44 -0000 On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > I'd like to voice my support for the logo competition. > > I was particularly pleased to read a comment on Daemon News that Beastie > would remain the mascot and that the logo and mascot are being > separated. I am hopeful that this comment was accurate. > > ...now, if I could only draw...... The comment is accurate. We'd like to get a logo we can provide to companies that are willing to stick it on their products as "supporting FreeBSD" -- while we all love the Daemon, we know that not every company can stick it on their Ethernet card box or server support web page. The intent is to keep Beastie as the Mascot, and you'll still see him all over the place. I can't imagine that FreeBSD t-shirts will stop holding him, let alone the large number of web pages, CDROM distributions, and so on. And don't forget the stuffed animal Beasties :-). For entertainment value, I should scan in the anonymous letter I received from someone in Kansas a few years ago. It compared the Beastie to using Osama Bin Laden as the FreeBSD logo, and was CC'd to my company and research sponsors. It's a classic :-). Of course, it wasn't appreciated at work because this was a bit after the anthrax scare, and anonymous mailed envelopes weren't real popular. Robert N M Watson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 21:29:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9246B16A4D2 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:29:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web53902.mail.yahoo.com (web53902.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4EC2C43D54 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:29:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stheg_olloydson@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 50125 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Feb 2005 21:29:50 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=u9cTIrst2T2FXRtBShXef2k2/+EHkSs2GxKnTFRzhRaBxWxR622I7xLc997UnPh3/ubAtM2WY1gFj2Db8PC2J3Dcomj0xjr7A7n+r6OTNdQXc4OMoFolqZoOPH6oRSYPFKB3ZUsp0qYR/GtR/NzaD9BidDQnBvcvZNUBEzDCsrk= ; Message-ID: <20050209212950.50123.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.210.34.46] by web53902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 13:29:50 PST Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:29:50 -0800 (PST) From: stheg olloydson To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: core@FreeBSD.org cc: kuriyama@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:29:52 -0000 I was not asked my opinion about whether or not the logo needs changing. I would like to clarify the reason[s] for this. When you say, "The FreeBSD Project is pleased to announce...", the statement implies a majority of the "FreeBSD Project" made this decision. Who is the "FreeBSD Project"? According to the announcement, "The FreeBSD Project is a team of individuals from all corners of the globe who volunteer time and expertise to develop the FreeBSD operating system." When you say "team" do you mean only core? Are those few people the entire "Project"? You don't say that, so whether or not one is a member depends entirely if one volunteers to "develop" FreeBSD. The question is what does "develop" mean. Does one who donates money and/or hardware count? No. By your definition, the Project includes only those who supply "time and expertise" - only those that supply their personal service. What counts as "expertise"? Programming obviously, but what if a person produces only poor quality ports? What about documention? Clearly the person is supplying "time and expertise", but does that count as "developing" FreeBSD? If yes, then what about answering questions on the mailing lists? Would that also count? Now as to the "need" to change the logo, to quote the announcement, "This character sometimes treated with misinterpreted in the religious and cultural context." Over the years, the only complaints I have ever heard have come from America's Taliban. Leaving aside the question of whether or not the complainers are in a position to make any sort of IT decision, one must ask what is their motivation for complaining. They are simply trying to force their religious orthodoxy on others. These are the same people trying to eliminate the barrier between state and church to make the United States into a theocratic country. Therefore, these complaints can be categorized as coming from an irrational minority that should be ignored. A second point is made, "And this daemon character seems cute from somebody's point of view, but somebody may think which does not suit for the professional products to indicate that are using the FreeBSD inside." The point is better phrased as, "The FreeBSD Project has decided that the beastie logo is unprofessional." This being the case, why does the Project think that the best way to get a "professional" logo is follow pretty much the same procedure that led to the beastie logo? Wouldn't a company that specializes in logo design/image consulting be far more qualified to design and select a new logo? Consider how much better Linux is doing in the maketplace than FreeBSD with its professional penguin logo. I, for one, think that logo choice is too important to be left amatuer attempts. A third point that was not raised is what else can be done to make FreeBSD look more professional. All "official" communication should be vetted by and reported as coming from a native American-English speaker. For example, from the announcement, written by Jun Kuriyama, "And this daemon character seems cute from somebody's point of view, but somebody may think which does not suit for the professional products to indicate that are using the FreeBSD inside." The grammar is abominable. How can FreeBSD possibly be taken seriously as a professional product as long as it allows "official" communications to come from those that can barely communicate in American-English? Furthermore, Americans have time and again proven to be among the most xenophobic nationalities, especially toward other races and religions. Any communications should come from someone with an easy-to-pronounce northern European surname (but not French) and, if at all possible, a first name that sounds American. I realize that at first many will find my last point to be offensive, but I think it is just as important as changing the logo and should be given the same consideration. Best Regards, Stheg Olloydson P.S. Many cultures, such as the Japanese, think that "you get what you pay for", so having the name FreeBSD is no different from being named ShiteBSD. I am looking forward to the competition to rename the OS. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 21:42:15 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E10416A4E6; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:42:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E9943D3F; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:42:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j19Lg7TT032392; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:42:07 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id j19Lg6L3032389; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:42:06 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:42:06 +0200 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: Robert Watson Message-ID: <20050209214206.GA21616@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.81, clamav-milter version 0.81b on kurush.osdn.org.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:42:15 -0000 Hello, Robert Watson! On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 09:13:39PM +0000, you wrote: > > I'd like to voice my support for the logo competition. > > > > I was particularly pleased to read a comment on Daemon News that Beastie > > would remain the mascot and that the logo and mascot are being > > separated. I am hopeful that this comment was accurate. > > > > ...now, if I could only draw...... > > The comment is accurate. We'd like to get a logo we can provide to > companies that are willing to stick it on their products as "supporting > FreeBSD" -- while we all love the Daemon, we know that not every company > can stick it on their Ethernet card box or server support web page. The > intent is to keep Beastie as the Mascot, and you'll still see him all over > the place. I can't imagine that FreeBSD t-shirts will stop holding him, > let alone the large number of web pages, CDROM distributions, and so on. > And don't forget the stuffed animal Beasties :-). But I've already seen some products which represented Beastie as "Designed for FreeBSD" (actually they mean "Designed to be supported by FreeBSD" :). Heh, anyway, political correctness is a$$pain for me... > For entertainment value, I should scan in the anonymous letter I received > from someone in Kansas a few years ago. It compared the Beastie to using > Osama Bin Laden as the FreeBSD logo, and was CC'd to my company and > research sponsors. It's a classic :-). Of course, it wasn't appreciated > at work because this was a bit after the anthrax scare, and anonymous > mailed envelopes weren't real popular. :)) -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 21:49:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C37D16A4CE; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:49:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8E1143D1F; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:49:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from [192.168.1.150] (really [64.180.28.217]) by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP <20050209214951.FGFW24400.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@[192.168.1.150]>; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:49:51 -0700 Message-ID: <420A8581.3040605@telus.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 13:49:53 -0800 From: Peter Kieser User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexandr Kovalenko References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <20050209214206.GA21616@nevermind.kiev.ua> In-Reply-To: <20050209214206.GA21616@nevermind.kiev.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:49:52 -0000 When the Project decides that political correctness is more important than a tradition dating back over 20 years, something is wrong. Personally I really don't care if a user selects another OS based on the fact that we have a devil as our mascot. They are better off on another OS anyways, because they're likely to cause problems -- because people with that kind of attitude are likely to bring up other "issues" with our "product". --Peter Alexandr Kovalenko wrote: >Hello, Robert Watson! > >On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 09:13:39PM +0000, you wrote: > > > >>>I'd like to voice my support for the logo competition. >>> >>>I was particularly pleased to read a comment on Daemon News that Beastie >>>would remain the mascot and that the logo and mascot are being >>>separated. I am hopeful that this comment was accurate. >>> >>>...now, if I could only draw...... >>> >>> >>The comment is accurate. We'd like to get a logo we can provide to >>companies that are willing to stick it on their products as "supporting >>FreeBSD" -- while we all love the Daemon, we know that not every company >>can stick it on their Ethernet card box or server support web page. The >>intent is to keep Beastie as the Mascot, and you'll still see him all over >>the place. I can't imagine that FreeBSD t-shirts will stop holding him, >>let alone the large number of web pages, CDROM distributions, and so on. >>And don't forget the stuffed animal Beasties :-). >> >> > >But I've already seen some products which represented Beastie as >"Designed for FreeBSD" (actually they mean "Designed to be supported by >FreeBSD" :). > >Heh, anyway, political correctness is a$$pain for me... > > > >>For entertainment value, I should scan in the anonymous letter I received >>from someone in Kansas a few years ago. It compared the Beastie to using >>Osama Bin Laden as the FreeBSD logo, and was CC'd to my company and >>research sponsors. It's a classic :-). Of course, it wasn't appreciated >>at work because this was a bit after the anthrax scare, and anonymous >>mailed envelopes weren't real popular. >> >> > >:)) > > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 21:52:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E174D16A4CE; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:52:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.103.67.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875A943D31; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:52:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.44 (FreeBSD)) id 1Cyzl8-000JW1-DK; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:52:30 +0000 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:52:30 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Peter Kieser Message-ID: <20050209215230.GZ18759@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Peter Kieser , Alexandr Kovalenko , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Robert Watson References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <20050209214206.GA21616@nevermind.kiev.ua> <420A8581.3040605@telus.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jdM5ZcN/ZcXXVwZs" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <420A8581.3040605@telus.net> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:52:33 -0000 --jdM5ZcN/ZcXXVwZs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 01:49:53PM -0800, Peter Kieser wrote: > When the Project decides that political correctness is more important=20 > than a tradition dating back over 20 years, something is wrong. >=20 > Personally I really don't care if a user selects another OS based on the= =20 > fact that we have a devil as our mascot. They are better off on another= =20 > OS anyways, because they're likely to cause problems -- because people=20 > with that kind of attitude are likely to bring up other "issues" with=20 > our "product". Then you won't care if we have a mascot that isn't a devil, will you? Ceri --=20 Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Einstein (attrib.) --jdM5ZcN/ZcXXVwZs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCCoYeocfcwTS3JF8RAparAKC/jDuGhBfO8dCuP+8InrMed8IKWACgoBzq XPM8dmWh/gTAiTBFBcaEEqQ= =I8JQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jdM5ZcN/ZcXXVwZs-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:07:02 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876C916A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:07:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0918A43D3F for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:07:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2098) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cyzyi-00067w-5g for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:06:32 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:58:22 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD4@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:38:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 4.5: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a publ ic competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:07:02 -0000 > From: Mark Ovens [mailto:marko@freebsd.org] > Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: > > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with > > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The > > FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo > > design. You can find the rules of the competition in this document. > > > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? > > > > So, the FreeBSD Project is giving in to the narrow-minded, > puritanical, moral minority who, despite their preachings are not very > well-informed as they don't know the difference between 'demon' and > 'daemon'. Is this a sign (or a victim perhaps?) of the "growing > conservatism sweeping Bush's America"? As a Christian and somewhat quasi-conservative, I must protest the promulgation of this falsehood. Problem is not the "religious right", but rather the erroneous perception of the religious right. There is no problem with the daemon mascot. Nobody is out there refusing to consider BSD because of its mascot The only time I have seen this issue brought up has been on Slashdot, by a Linux advocate, or by someone who heard second hand from one of the former. Nobody's complaining about the Arizona Sun Devils. No one's complaining aobut Underwood Deviled Ham. And no one's complaining about the BSD daemon. I'm a Christian and I don't have a problem with him. My Christian relatives and friends don't have a problem with him. Including those that are rural "hicks" from red states. Yes, I'm sure you can scrounge up a couple of old anecotes of people who were offended or disturbed by Beastie. But I can counter each with ten of my own anecdotes of conservative Christians who did not. Do not mistake a few poorly socialized radicals on the right as the model for religious conservatives. That's stereotyping of the worst sort. There *IS* a reason for a logo contest, and that is because we do not have a logo, only a mascot. Let's get ourselves a logo, but keep the mascot, because Beastie is a hell [sic] of a lot cooler than flightless waterfowl. David Johnson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:23:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F2916A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:23:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ptb-relay02.plus.net (ptb-relay02.plus.net [212.159.14.213]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2109243D1F for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:23:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marko@freebsd.org) Received: from movens.plus.com ([80.229.231.20] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ptb-relay02.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1Cz0F3-000D0B-7f; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:23:25 +0000 Message-ID: <420A8CFA.20800@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:21:46 +0000 From: Mark Ovens User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 7.0 (Windows/20050209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD4@mvaexch01.acuson.com> In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD4@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-0, 08/02/2005), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 4.5: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a publ ic competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:23:26 -0000 Johnson David wrote: >> From: Mark Ovens [mailto:marko@freebsd.org] >> Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: >> > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with >> > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The >> > FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo >> > design. You can find the rules of the competition in this document. >> > >> > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? >> > >> >> So, the FreeBSD Project is giving in to the narrow-minded, >> puritanical, moral minority who, despite their preachings are not very >> well-informed as they don't know the difference between 'demon' and >> 'daemon'. Is this a sign (or a victim perhaps?) of the "growing >> conservatism sweeping Bush's America"? > > As a Christian and somewhat quasi-conservative, I must protest the > promulgation of this falsehood. Problem is not the "religious right", but > rather the erroneous perception of the religious right. There is no problem > with the daemon mascot. Nobody is out there refusing to consider BSD because > of its mascot The only time I have seen this issue brought up has been on > Slashdot, by a Linux advocate, or by someone who heard second hand from one > of the former. > > Nobody's complaining about the Arizona Sun Devils. No one's complaining > aobut Underwood Deviled Ham. And no one's complaining about the BSD daemon. > I'm a Christian and I don't have a problem with him. My Christian relatives > and friends don't have a problem with him. Including those that are rural > "hicks" from red states. > > Yes, I'm sure you can scrounge up a couple of old anecotes of people who > were offended or disturbed by Beastie. But I can counter each with ten of my Just search through the FreeBSD mail archives for numerous posts along the lines of "why do you have the Devil as your mascot" - I'd bet it runs into hundreds. My comments referred to a *small minority* of people, mainly Christian I guess, who've expressed concern/disgust/disapproval of it but isn't that always the way with everything, a small minority? Apologies if I've offended you, or anyone else, that wasn't the intent. FWIW, I'm Christian too and I don't have a problem with Beastie either. Mark --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0506-0, 08/02/2005 Tested on: 09/02/2005 22:21:47 avast! - copyright (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:25:31 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3172B16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:25:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dustpuppy.tbc.net (tbc2.tbc.net [207.112.224.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEB643D48 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:25:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from harrison@tbc.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dustpuppy.tbc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E2311C93B for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:25:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from dustpuppy.tbc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dustpuppy.tbc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20160-03 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:25:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from [209.100.183.159] (adsl-183-159.tbcnet.com [209.100.183.159]) by dustpuppy.tbc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 973E311C8F2 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:25:41 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420A8E66.8080703@tbc.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:27:50 -0600 From: Shawn Harrison User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tbc.net Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:25:31 -0000 Robert Watson wrote [02/09/05 3:13 PM]: > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Andrew L. Gould wrote: >> >> I was particularly pleased to read a comment on Daemon News that >> Beastie would remain the mascot and that the logo and mascot are >> being separated. I am hopeful that this comment was accurate. > > The comment is accurate. We'd like to get a logo we can provide to > companies that are willing to stick it on their products as > "supporting FreeBSD" -- while we all love the Daemon, we know that > not every company can stick it on their Ethernet card box or server > support web page. The intent is to keep Beastie as the Mascot, and > you'll still see him all over the place. I can't imagine that > FreeBSD t-shirts will stop holding him, let alone the large number of > web pages, CDROM distributions, and so on. And don't forget the > stuffed animal Beasties :-). I'm glad to hear this, because the announcement paragraph about "religious sensitivities" would certainly lead one to a different conclusion. If what you're saying is honest, then that paragraph is entirely beside the point. The real point is to have a professional looking _logo_ to _complement_ (not replace) the cute mascot. That makes sense. Replacing the mascot with something else for the reasons cited in that paragraph does not make sense. -- Shawn Harrison From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:29:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3C516A4CF for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:29:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.82]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8655743D54 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:29:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.27.163 with login) by smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2005 22:29:54 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:29:53 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420A8581.3040605@telus.net> <20050209215230.GZ18759@submonkey.net> In-Reply-To: <20050209215230.GZ18759@submonkey.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502091429.53854.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: Ceri Davies cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:29:55 -0000 On Wednesday 09 February 2005 01:52 pm, Ceri Davies wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 01:49:53PM -0800, Peter Kieser wrote: > > When the Project decides that political correctness is more > > important than a tradition dating back over 20 years, something is > > wrong. > > > > Personally I really don't care if a user selects another OS based > > on the fact that we have a devil as our mascot. They are better off > > on another OS anyways, because they're likely to cause problems -- > > because people with that kind of attitude are likely to bring up > > other "issues" with our "product". > > Then you won't care if we have a mascot that isn't a devil, will you? The point is that the FreeBSD project is allowing people to dictate terms which they have no business dictating. As I pointed out in an earlier post, many businesses and schools use a devil as the mascot, sometimes with a direct connection to the Christian archetype of Satan. FreeBSD's mascot, in contrast, is in reference to Greek mythology, and is a play on words. People who are - sorry to say it - too thick to realize the reference, or who are too stubborn to accept it upon hearing it, are probably not the best people from which to take advice about the project's image. OTOH, if this is actually about the *logo*, as in the lettering of the name, then that's a different subject. But I have never heard anyone voice a religious objection to that, and the original post implied that the mascot was what was being changed, even though it said 'logo.' - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:30:42 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B402C16A4CE; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:30:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D26043D55; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:30:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1Cz0M5-000402-9H; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:30:41 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:31:08 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <20050209214206.GA21616@nevermind.kiev.ua> <420A8581.3040605@telus.net> In-Reply-To: <420A8581.3040605@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502091631.08593.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc18f151afd151e8370a9239b59625ed66350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:30:42 -0000 On Wednesday 09 February 2005 03:49 pm, Peter Kieser wrote: > When the Project decides that political correctness is more important > than a tradition dating back over 20 years, something is wrong. > > Personally I really don't care if a user selects another OS based on > the fact that we have a devil as our mascot. They are better off on > another OS anyways, because they're likely to cause problems -- > because people with that kind of attitude are likely to bring up > other "issues" with our "product". > > --Peter Do you object to FreeBSD having a logo that portrays the fact that it's a professional grade operating system? Beastie is staying; but Beastie only portrays one side of FreeBSD. The professional side of FreeBSD deserves attention and expression. I don't see a new logo as bowing to Political Correctness as much as improving communication. Images project messages; and frequently Beastie (inadvertently) sends the wrong message. Once I explain the history behind Beastie, everyone whom I've talked to has been okay with it. The problem is that I often have to resolve the Beastie issue before the listener is ready to hear about computer security, reliability, etc. Also, please keep in mind, it's not always about whether we get new users. FreeBSD's image may affect whether a business chooses to associate itself with FreeBSD by creating FreeBSD drivers for its products or supporting FreeBSD development. Business is people; and people are not perfectly rational. PR issues influence business decisions now more than ever. Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:35:02 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6353316A4D3 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:35:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from meisai.numachi.com (meisai.numachi.com [198.175.254.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 199B043D31 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:35:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reichert@numachi.com) Received: (qmail 98743 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2005 22:34:59 -0000 Received: from natto.numachi.com (198.175.254.216) by meisai.numachi.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2005 22:34:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 40915 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Feb 2005 22:34:59 -0000 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:34:59 -0500 From: Brian Reichert To: stheg olloydson Message-ID: <20050209223459.GL30543@numachi.com> References: <20050209212950.50123.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050209212950.50123.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: core@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: kuriyama@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:35:02 -0000 On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 01:29:50PM -0800, stheg olloydson wrote: > When you say, "The FreeBSD Project is pleased to announce...", the > statement implies a majority of the "FreeBSD Project" made this > decision. Who is the "FreeBSD Project"? According to the announcement, Maybe I'm confused. Acoording to the home page: "As of 2005-02-09, competition is not yet announced, and received 0 submissions." I'm on -announce, and saw no announcement about this competition. Perhaps, we're reading too far into a text file that no-one was supposed to see yet? > Best Regards, > > Stheg Olloydson -- Brian Reichert 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (603) 434-6842 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA BSD admin/developer at large From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:42:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CFB616A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:42:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F5143D2F for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:42:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1Cz0Xo-0005oI-G9; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:42:48 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:43:15 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <420A8E66.8080703@tbc.net> In-Reply-To: <420A8E66.8080703@tbc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502091643.15882.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc91f54d2665343800cd2ee8c9b21c69b3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:42:49 -0000 On Wednesday 09 February 2005 04:27 pm, Shawn Harrison wrote: > Robert Watson wrote [02/09/05 3:13 PM]: > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > >> I was particularly pleased to read a comment on Daemon News that > >> Beastie would remain the mascot and that the logo and mascot are > >> being separated. I am hopeful that this comment was accurate. > > > > The comment is accurate. We'd like to get a logo we can provide to > > companies that are willing to stick it on their products as > > "supporting FreeBSD" -- while we all love the Daemon, we know that > > not every company can stick it on their Ethernet card box or server > > support web page. The intent is to keep Beastie as the Mascot, and > > you'll still see him all over the place. I can't imagine that > > FreeBSD t-shirts will stop holding him, let alone the large number > > of web pages, CDROM distributions, and so on. And don't forget the > > stuffed animal Beasties :-). > > I'm glad to hear this, because the announcement paragraph about > "religious sensitivities" would certainly lead one to a different > conclusion. If what you're saying is honest, then that paragraph is > entirely beside the point. > > The real point is to have a professional looking _logo_ to > _complement_ (not replace) the cute mascot. That makes sense. > Replacing the mascot with something else for the reasons cited in > that paragraph does not make sense. > > -- > Shawn Harrison I think that hits the nail on the head; but that's not the message that got out. I've been reading the fallout both on this list and freebsd-questions. There's a lot of unnecessary heat out there. Can an "official someone" send out an official message emphasizing the following: 1. Beastie is the mascot. This will remain unchanged. 2. We need a professional logo, separately and regardless of PC (Political Correctness) issues. I would suggest that the message go out to freebsd-questions (as an answer to appropriate threads) in addition to the regular announcement channels. Thanks, Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:46:45 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5465916A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:46:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp819.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp819.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C738743D48 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:46:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.27.163 with login) by smtp819.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2005 22:46:44 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:46:43 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502091446.43872.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:46:45 -0000 On Wednesday 09 February 2005 01:13 pm, Robert Watson wrote: > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > I'd like to voice my support for the logo competition. > > > > I was particularly pleased to read a comment on Daemon News that > > Beastie would remain the mascot and that the logo and mascot are > > being separated. I am hopeful that this comment was accurate. > > > > ...now, if I could only draw...... > > The comment is accurate. We'd like to get a logo we can provide to > companies that are willing to stick it on their products as > "supporting FreeBSD" -- while we all love the Daemon, we know that > not every company can stick it on their Ethernet card box or server > support web page. The intent is to keep Beastie as the Mascot, and > you'll still see him all over the place. I can't imagine that > FreeBSD t-shirts will stop holding him, let alone the large number of > web pages, CDROM distributions, and so on. And don't forget the > stuffed animal Beasties :-). > > For entertainment value, I should scan in the anonymous letter I > received from someone in Kansas a few years ago. It compared the > Beastie to using Osama Bin Laden as the FreeBSD logo, and was CC'd to > my company and research sponsors. It's a classic :-). Of course, it > wasn't appreciated at work because this was a bit after the anthrax > scare, and anonymous mailed envelopes weren't real popular. Really? Well, OK, but I kinda wish that was made a little more clear, before I got worked up about it anyway ;) I still don't see the need to do this. Why does the website have to be changed in order that people can display "supporting FreeBSD"? How does Duke University react to such complaints? They've had their mascot longer, as has Underwood Deviled Ham (in fact their devil is the oldest food trademark still in use in the US, first registered in 1870), and yet they continue to use them. I dunno, I think longevity of brand recognition is more important than these sorts of issues. Beastie has been around for a decade and a half, and FreeBSD would lose that if the brand changed. What's next, are people going to start making unices without any reference to "daemons" at all, in order not to possibly offend a few people? - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:47:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32AAF16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:47:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from whitehall.lin-tech.net (whitehall.lin-tech.net [66.118.35.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A69B43D31 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:47:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bob@buckhorn.net) Received: from [72.26.11.120] (unknown [72.26.11.120]) by whitehall.lin-tech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AF6425021 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:47:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420A9320.7050705@buckhorn.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:48:00 -0600 From: Bob Martin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8a5) Gecko/20041214 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <20050209214206.GA21616@nevermind.kiev.ua> <420A8581.3040605@telus.net> In-Reply-To: <420A8581.3040605@telus.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at spamcontrol Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:47:34 -0000 I assisted a private university with the conversion from MS to Debian year before last. Their IT department wanted FreeBSD, but the regents said no. They understood the value of FreeBSD, but figured (correctly) that Linux would work as well, and there wasn't any chance of being sued over the logo. They donated $50,000.00 US to the GNU foundation this year, as a way to express their happiness with open source software. (It was a meager sum, compared to what they used to tithe Redmond) By your standards, they got what they deserved. So did the GNU. Being inflexible on this sort of thing will do nothing for FreeBSD, but it clearly can do harm. I'm as attached to our mascot as anyone. Beastie adorns my favorite coffee cup, my "best" tee-shirt and hangs from the mirror in my car. But I love the OS beastie represents even more. Bob Martin -- Has anyone else considered the irony of debating the political correctness of something that originated at UC Berkeley? Peter Kieser wrote: > When the Project decides that political correctness is more important > than a tradition dating back over 20 years, something is wrong. > > Personally I really don't care if a user selects another OS based on the > fact that we have a devil as our mascot. They are better off on another > OS anyways, because they're likely to cause problems -- because people > with that kind of attitude are likely to bring up other "issues" with > our "product". > > --Peter > > Alexandr Kovalenko wrote: > >> Hello, Robert Watson! >> >> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 09:13:39PM +0000, you wrote: >> >> >> >>>> I'd like to voice my support for the logo competition. >>>> I was particularly pleased to read a comment on Daemon News that >>>> Beastie >>>> would remain the mascot and that the logo and mascot are being >>>> separated. I am hopeful that this comment was accurate. >>>> ...now, if I could only draw...... >>> >>> The comment is accurate. We'd like to get a logo we can provide to >>> companies that are willing to stick it on their products as "supporting >>> FreeBSD" -- while we all love the Daemon, we know that not every company >>> can stick it on their Ethernet card box or server support web page. The >>> intent is to keep Beastie as the Mascot, and you'll still see him all >>> over >>> the place. I can't imagine that FreeBSD t-shirts will stop holding him, >>> let alone the large number of web pages, CDROM distributions, and so on. >>> And don't forget the stuffed animal Beasties :-). >>> >> >> >> But I've already seen some products which represented Beastie as >> "Designed for FreeBSD" (actually they mean "Designed to be supported by >> FreeBSD" :). >> >> Heh, anyway, political correctness is a$$pain for me... >> >> >> >>> For entertainment value, I should scan in the anonymous letter I >>> received >>> from someone in Kansas a few years ago. It compared the Beastie to >>> using >>> Osama Bin Laden as the FreeBSD logo, and was CC'd to my company and >>> research sponsors. It's a classic :-). Of course, it wasn't appreciated >>> at work because this was a bit after the anthrax scare, and anonymous >>> mailed envelopes weren't real popular. >> >> >> :)) >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:47:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46A7B16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:47:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.156.12.53]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18A0543D1F for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:47:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7823D46B04; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:47:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:46:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: "Andrew L. Gould" In-Reply-To: <200502091643.15882.algould@datawok.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:47:56 -0000 On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > Can an "official someone" send out an official message emphasizing the > following: > > 1. Beastie is the mascot. This will remain unchanged. Yup. > 2. We need a professional logo, separately and regardless of PC > (Political Correctness) issues. Yup. And the real announcement text, asks specifically for a logo that can be used *with* the current mascot, or separately, so the design should work with the beastie. I'm not sure how you say "Make it work well with the devil, stylistically speaking" in a logo request, but we'll figure something out. :-) The FreeBSD Project yet again learns the following important lesson: don't ever put anything on a web site before you're ready for the world to see it, even if it makes it easier to edit. You'd think after we had 3+ releases prematurely announced on www.slashdot.org due to postings to the FTP directories during replication that we'd have figured that out. Robert N M Watson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:50:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A811E16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:50:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.103.67.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2028543D1F for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:50:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.44 (FreeBSD)) id 1Cz0fb-0000xK-Lf; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:50:51 +0000 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:50:51 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: "Andrew L. Gould" Message-ID: <20050209225051.GC18759@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , "Andrew L. Gould" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <420A8E66.8080703@tbc.net> <200502091643.15882.algould@datawok.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FmdPcZLZZW6lDAYm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200502091643.15882.algould@datawok.com> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:50:56 -0000 --FmdPcZLZZW6lDAYm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 04:43:15PM -0600, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 04:27 pm, Shawn Harrison wrote: > > Robert Watson wrote [02/09/05 3:13 PM]: > > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > >> I was particularly pleased to read a comment on Daemon News that > > >> Beastie would remain the mascot and that the logo and mascot are > > >> being separated. I am hopeful that this comment was accurate. > > > > > > The comment is accurate. We'd like to get a logo we can provide to > > > companies that are willing to stick it on their products as > > > "supporting FreeBSD" -- while we all love the Daemon, we know that > > > not every company can stick it on their Ethernet card box or server > > > support web page. The intent is to keep Beastie as the Mascot, and > > > you'll still see him all over the place. I can't imagine that > > > FreeBSD t-shirts will stop holding him, let alone the large number > > > of web pages, CDROM distributions, and so on. And don't forget the > > > stuffed animal Beasties :-). > > > > I'm glad to hear this, because the announcement paragraph about > > "religious sensitivities" would certainly lead one to a different > > conclusion. If what you're saying is honest, then that paragraph is > > entirely beside the point. > > > > The real point is to have a professional looking _logo_ to > > _complement_ (not replace) the cute mascot. That makes sense. > > Replacing the mascot with something else for the reasons cited in > > that paragraph does not make sense. > > > > -- > > Shawn Harrison >=20 > I think that hits the nail on the head; but that's not the message that= =20 > got out. The message that got out is not finished. Twelve hours ago I was still in discussion with various people over exactly what the announcement will say, and as far as I'm aware that has still not been finalised and I sure as hell have not seen an announcement being made. Two weeks ago everyone got excited because there was a pixel tracker named g5powerbook.gif on apple.com - look what that got us. Wait for the announcement. > I've been reading the fallout both on this list and=20 > freebsd-questions. There's a lot of unnecessary heat out there. >=20 > Can an "official someone" send out an official message emphasizing the=20 > following: >=20 > 1. Beastie is the mascot. This will remain unchanged. >=20 > 2. We need a professional logo, separately and regardless of PC=20 > (Political Correctness) issues. That's the idea, but I am not the "official someone" that you are looking for. Wait for the announcement. Ceri --=20 Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Einstein (attrib.) --FmdPcZLZZW6lDAYm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCCpPLocfcwTS3JF8RAl5XAJ42eVzHmTodLo5TFHf/DONZcqbw6ACeIeHY K6uRXJOeU3ZAvWy1+jC8yaY= =ugCR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FmdPcZLZZW6lDAYm-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:51:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3532316A4CE; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:51:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC81243D3F; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:51:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from [192.168.1.150] (really [64.180.28.217]) by priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP <20050209225133.KBXE5840.priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net@[192.168.1.150]>; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:51:33 -0700 Message-ID: <420A93F7.6010705@telus.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:51:35 -0800 From: Peter Kieser User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:51:34 -0000 I want to see the FreeBSD logo include the beastie mascot, like it always has. --Peter Robert Watson wrote: >On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > > >>Can an "official someone" send out an official message emphasizing the >>following: >> >>1. Beastie is the mascot. This will remain unchanged. >> >> > >Yup. > > > >>2. We need a professional logo, separately and regardless of PC >>(Political Correctness) issues. >> >> From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:54:05 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C9A16A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:54:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.156.12.53]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E84E043D39 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:54:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FAE246B04; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:54:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:53:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Joshua Tinnin In-Reply-To: <200502091446.43872.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:54:05 -0000 On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > > For entertainment value, I should scan in the anonymous letter I > > received from someone in Kansas a few years ago. It compared the > > Beastie to using Osama Bin Laden as the FreeBSD logo, and was CC'd to > > my company and research sponsors. It's a classic :-). Of course, it > > wasn't appreciated at work because this was a bit after the anthrax > > scare, and anonymous mailed envelopes weren't real popular. > > Really? Well, OK, but I kinda wish that was made a little more clear, > before I got worked up about it anyway ;) Yeah, the announcement was prematurely leaked, and was clearly not ready for the world to see yet :-). You'll notice that it was still in the editing stage, and hadn't yet been spell-checked. > I still don't see the need to do this. Why does the website have to be > changed in order that people can display "supporting FreeBSD"? How does > Duke University react to such complaints? They've had their mascot > longer, as has Underwood Deviled Ham (in fact their devil is the oldest > food trademark still in use in the US, first registered in 1870), and > yet they continue to use them. I dunno, I think longevity of brand > recognition is more important than these sorts of issues. Beastie has > been around for a decade and a half, and FreeBSD would lose that if the > brand changed. What's next, are people going to start making unices > without any reference to "daemons" at all, in order not to possibly > offend a few people? I don't know how other organizations handle it, but you'll notice that most of the BSD-related organizations have at some point opted for a non-daemon logo. Even BSDI, which was spun off from the original BSD development at Berkeley, went with lizards for cover art, CD art, etc. All that said, the relationship between FreeBSD and the Beastie is clearly strong, and not going away. What we're looking for is a clean and professional logo that can be used with or without the Beastie in a variety of situations -- be it book covers, white papers, stationary headers, etc. Ideally something that can be rendered for a variety of print mediums, including black and white, two-tone, something that uses pantone colors, renders well using vector graphics, and so on. Even the best attempts at a vector daemon (apologies to Poul-Henning) look a little less than sleek. :-) Robert N M Watson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:57:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8D416A4CE; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:57:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.103.67.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9EC843D49; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:57:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.44 (FreeBSD)) id 1Cz0mC-000E1j-QY; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:57:40 +0000 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:57:40 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Robert Watson Message-ID: <20050209225740.GD18759@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Robert Watson , Joshua Tinnin , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <200502091446.43872.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DzFMwNuU1QL7hgxO" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:57:47 -0000 --DzFMwNuU1QL7hgxO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 10:53:00PM +0000, Robert Watson wrote: > All > that said, the relationship between FreeBSD and the Beastie is clearly > strong, and not going away. What we're looking for is a clean and > professional logo that can be used with or without the Beastie in a > variety of situations -- be it book covers, white papers, stationary > headers, etc. Ideally something that can be rendered for a variety of > print mediums, including black and white, two-tone, something that uses > pantone colors, renders well using vector graphics, and so on. Even the > best attempts at a vector daemon (apologies to Poul-Henning) look a little > less than sleek. :-)=20 This is a major consideration. We're currently lacking anything high-res of the Beastie that we can use for anything serious. Ceri --=20 Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Einstein (attrib.) --DzFMwNuU1QL7hgxO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCCpVkocfcwTS3JF8RAp8UAJ9hsUlvCiEQUwDIGN4TFyZXHjH+lgCfUp86 htAG6m/Muq0l+UYeqC5pZJg= =TtPL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DzFMwNuU1QL7hgxO-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 22:57:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E866616A4CE; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:57:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.199.47.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB9543D53; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:57:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EAD4B512FC; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:57:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:57:46 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brian Reichert Message-ID: <20050209225746.GA30464@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20050209212950.50123.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> <20050209223459.GL30543@numachi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5mCyUwZo2JvN/JJP" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050209223459.GL30543@numachi.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: core@FreeBSD.org cc: stheg olloydson cc: kuriyama@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 22:57:48 -0000 --5mCyUwZo2JvN/JJP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 05:34:59PM -0500, Brian Reichert wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 01:29:50PM -0800, stheg olloydson wrote: > > When you say, "The FreeBSD Project is pleased to announce...", the > > statement implies a majority of the "FreeBSD Project" made this > > decision. Who is the "FreeBSD Project"? According to the announcement, >=20 > Maybe I'm confused. Acoording to the home page: >=20 > >=20 > "As of 2005-02-09, competition is not yet announced, and received > 0 submissions." >=20 > I'm on -announce, and saw no announcement about this competition. >=20 > Perhaps, we're reading too far into a text file that no-one was > supposed to see yet? Yes. Some committer must have leaked the information, and it apparently sent everyone into a panic. Calm down, folks :) Kris --5mCyUwZo2JvN/JJP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCCpVqWry0BWjoQKURAtOZAJ0Y9UJEJTP37ytbw5LCHqCm6rml8QCZAWQ/ f1hi4gx+jRu02Nfcoyj5XKE= =5a6z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5mCyUwZo2JvN/JJP-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 23:28:45 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294B116A4CE; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:28:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAAE043D46; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:28:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2864) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cz1Ap-0000ss-4c; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 15:23:07 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:14:43 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD5@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'stheg olloydson' , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:41:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.5: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:28:45 -0000 From: stheg olloydson [mailto:stheg_olloydson@yahoo.com] > > Now as to the "need" to change the logo, to quote the announcement, > "This character sometimes treated with misinterpreted in the > religious and cultural context." Over the years, the only complaints I > have ever heard have come from America's Taliban. Leaving aside the > question of whether or not the complainers are in a position to make > any sort of IT decision, one must ask what is their motivation for > complaining. They are simply trying to force their religious orthodoxy > on others. These are the same people trying to eliminate the barrier > between state and church to make the United States into a theocratic > country. Therefore, these complaints can be categorized as coming from > an irrational minority that should be ignored. Please keep your personal politics and cultural bigotry off of these lists. There is no "America's Taliban", and the use of the term is used solely to incite emotions. Thinking that just because people share you views on operating systems they must also share you views on religion and foreign policy is sheer hubris. I realize that geeks and hackers tend to be irreligious, and Open Source a collection of global communities, but not until today have I seen such anti-Christian and anti-America bigotry in the FreeBSD community. Is this to be the new standard of discourse? If so, tell me now so I can avoid the rush in switching to another BSD. As a Christian I am not in the least offended by Beastie. But I am getting quite offended by people stereotyping my religion, nation and culture. David Johnson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 23:32:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB7716A4CF for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:32:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C180443D1D for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:32:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1108.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 543311C0008B for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:32:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1108.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 243861C00089 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:32:32 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050209233232148.243861C00089@mwinf1108.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:32:31 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1884343535.20050210003231@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200502091446.43872.krinklyfig@spymac.com> References: <200502091446.43872.krinklyfig@spymac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:32:34 -0000 There's a distinction between a logo and a mascot. A logo is a distinctive identifier (often registered as a trademark, although this is isn't required) that is associated with a product or service; a mascot is a fictional or real creature or person who inspires or represents the spirit of a product, service, or organization. It's possible to change a logo without changing a mascot, and vice versa. The other organizations already mentioned here, such as universities, sandwich-spread manufacturers, etc., often have _both_ mascots and logos. Pilsbury and McDonald's have mascots AND logos. And so on. The main interest in developing a logo doesn't have to do with religion at all, as I see it: it's just a matter of practical economics and business. Most logos in the open-source world are extremely complex (penguins, multicolored feathers, etc.)--they are hard to prepare for display and very expensive to print. Full-color halftones look pretty, but they require things like trapped four-color offset printing with screens to produce the kind of shaded images that people tend to come up with. Logos, on the other hand, tend to be simple, distinctive designs that are cheap and easy to format and print for display or paper documents; they don't normally require trapping or screens and can be printed in just one or two colors instead of process colors, and also usually look okay in grayscale or monochrome. It seems that this contest isn't actually underway, but here's an example of something I cooked up to look like a logo (not to be confused with a mascot--which I have no talent for, anyway): http://perso.wanadoo.fr/anthony.atkielski/FreeBSDLogo1.jpg This logo concept uses ITC Garamond Bold (traditionally associated with FreeBSD and the BSDs generally) as the typeface for the logotype, thus retaining a link with prior generations of BSD (and showing kinship with other versions of BSD, such as NetBSD). I've adjusted the spacing of the logotype to tighten up the characters a bit. The squared oval surrounding the logotype represents continuous operation. The figure at the lower right is both a heart (representing the fondness that FreeBSD users have for the operating system) and, in conjunction with the oval, a symbolic pointed tail--an indirect reference to the original Beastie. The gold color for the oval represents reliability; the red color of the rest of logo again is an indirect reference to the original (red) Beastie. The simplicity of the logo makes it inexpensive to print on paper (it can be printed monochrome or with simple two-color offset, or with process offset). There are no complex halftones or shadings or fine details that might be difficult to print or might become muddy or fuzzy when resizing the logo for display. The spot colors used are Pantone 144 CVU (gold) and Pantone 187 CVU (red). These can be easily converted to CMYK, RGB, grayscale, etc., as required. I created the original design with Adobe Illustrator. Obviously this is very different from a mascot, but (whether you happen to like this example or not) it illustrates the characteristics required of a logo: simplicity and inexpensive implementation (no rainbow colors or anything). -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 9 23:36:16 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6E916A4CE for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:36:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB2143D1D for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:36:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A4D3F1C0009E for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:36:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 8C1491C0008D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:36:15 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050209233615573.8C1491C0008D@mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:36:15 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1695570376.20050210003615@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420A93F7.6010705@telus.net> References: <420A93F7.6010705@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:36:16 -0000 Peter Kieser writes: > I want to see the FreeBSD logo include the beastie mascot, like it > always has. FreeBSD doesn't currently have a logo, although it does have a mascot. A logo is something like IBM's stylized logotype, or AT&T's "Death Star" logo. ASU's Sun Devil (the illustration by Bert Anthony from Disney) is a mascot; the stylized logotype of the university is the logo. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 00:39:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722CC16A4CE; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:39:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F124943D1F; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:39:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2483) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cz2Lo-0003Cf-4f; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:38:32 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:30:07 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'Mark Ovens' Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:53:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 4.7: Re: SPAM: Score 4.5: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a publ ic competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:39:04 -0000 From: Mark Ovens [mailto:marko@freebsd.org] > >> Yes, I'm sure you can scrounge up a couple of old anecotes of people who >> were offended or disturbed by Beastie. But I can counter each with ten of my > > Just search through the FreeBSD mail archives for numerous posts along > the lines of "why do you have the Devil as your mascot" - I'd bet it > runs into hundreds. I've seen those posts because I've been on this list for four or five years. But to my recollection they were either questioning why logo was a demon/devil, or expressing concern that *other* people might find Beastie offensive. I don't recall any where the poster him/herself was offended or disturbed. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 00:45:54 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E53DB16A4CE; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:45:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF3C43D31; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:45:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j1A0M3U5035267; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j1A0M3Co035266; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:22:02 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD 5.3 MySQL Performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:45:55 -0000 hey gang, We've got a customer that is considering a network expansion while moving from Linux to FreeBSD. They are big users of MySQL and have been running it on Linux. Most of the information that I've found is a bit old, but I guess my question is if LinuxThreads should still be used or if MySQL works well under FreeBSD using native threads. The customer has looked at Jeremy's blog article on this issue, but this is pretty old: http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/000697.html Also, does anybody have any FreeBSD 5.3/MySQL benchmarks? I searched the mailing lists but didn't turn up anything. The customer is looking for some kind of validation that he'll be safe running his database on FreeBSD. thanks, -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 00:47:29 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAC3C16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:47:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dsl-mail.kamp.net (mail.kamp-dsl.de [195.62.99.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 565F843D2D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:47:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from farid.hajji@ob.kamp.net) Received: (qmail 5557 invoked by uid 513); 10 Feb 2005 00:47:27 -0000 Received: from 213.146.115.42 by dsl-mail (envelope-from , uid 89) with qmail-scanner-1.24 (clamdscan: 0.80/609. spamassassin: 2.60. Clear:RC:1(213.146.115.42):. Processed in 0.037006 secs); 10 Feb 2005 00:47:27 -0000 Received: from fw.farid-hajji.net (farid.hajji%ob.kamp.net@213.146.115.42) by dsl-mail.kamp.net with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 00:47:27 -0000 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:43:13 +0100 From: Farid Hajji To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050210004313.GA19539@fw.farid-hajji.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Logo contest, and lessons from the XFree86 debacle X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:47:29 -0000 What's wrong with Beastie being the logo as well as the mascot? It's been BSD's most prominent brand since the very beginning. Changing this now is absolutely insane from a PR's POV. This logo contest idea should never have popped up in the first place. BSD and FreeBSD have never caved in to popularity issues but choose to stick to technical excellence. *This* has been truly professional. Sadly, that new-fangled pseudo-marketroid speak is a bad omen for the future of FreeBSD. Remember what happened with the XFree86 project as they choose to change their license terms without community support? Now we have X.org and most relevant developers moved there, just because XFree86's Mgmt failed to address the community's concerns appropriately. Please don't make the same mistake with FreeBSD. There's a lot to lose at stake. Thanks, -Farid Hajji. (pushing FreeBSD in the corporate world since version 2.0). From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 00:58:59 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA8F16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:58:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from splinter.bowdoin.edu (splinter.bowdoin.edu [139.140.181.132]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ACED43D2F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:58:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from alec@thened.net) Received: by splinter.bowdoin.edu (Postfix, from userid 12008) id 5769578A2; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:58:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:58:56 -0500 From: Alec Berryman To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050210005856.GC818@thened.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ALfTUftag+2gvp1h" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> X-Ned-Wuz-Here: Yes X-GPG-Fingerprint: 3DB5 8785 53D9 8BF4 5049 B6B9 02E7 7FD9 881C 85C4 X-GPG-Key: http://www.thened.net/~alec/static/alec.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Re: FreeBSD 5.3 MySQL Performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:58:59 -0000 --ALfTUftag+2gvp1h Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Matt Olander on 2005-02-09 16:22:02 -0800: > Also, does anybody have any FreeBSD 5.3/MySQL benchmarks? I searched > the mailing lists but didn't turn up anything. There was an article posted to Newsforge today about benchmarking MySQL on different operating systems. > The customer is looking for some kind of validation that he'll be > safe running his database on FreeBSD. I don't usually look at benchmarks when wondering if my databases are 'safe'. --ALfTUftag+2gvp1h Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (NetBSD) iD8DBQFCCrHQAud/2YgchcQRApquAJ9s0/BDU33mM3hijyPwsUzX+yv+LgCgxoV3 Dde0LXVzZ8rJKExIB+X3LRk= =/l3Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ALfTUftag+2gvp1h-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 01:04:29 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA2E16A4CE; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:04:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7549B43D39; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:04:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1Cz2kl-0005aK-00; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:04:19 -0800 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:04:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Matt Olander In-Reply-To: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 5.3 MySQL Performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:04:30 -0000 On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Matt Olander wrote: > Also, does anybody have any FreeBSD 5.3/MySQL benchmarks? I searched the > mailing lists but didn't turn up anything. This was posted to some NetBSD lists today: http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/12/27/1243207&from=rss This "Comparing MySQL performance" article includes FreeBSD 5.3 (linuxthreads and KSE), FreeBSD 4.11 (linuxthreads), OpenBSD 3.6, NetBSD 2.0, Solaris 10, Linux 2.4 and 2.6 (Gentoo) Jeremy C. Reed BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 01:07:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 654C816A4CE; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:07:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37DDC43D2F; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:07:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j1A0i0U5035492; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:44:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j1A0i0je035491; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:44:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:44:00 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050209164359.J31921@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> <20050210005856.GC818@thened.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20050210005856.GC818@thened.net>; from alec@thened.net on Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 07:58:56PM -0500 cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 5.3 MySQL Performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:07:52 -0000 On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 07:58:56PM -0500, Alec Berryman wrote: > > Also, does anybody have any FreeBSD 5.3/MySQL benchmarks? I searched > > the mailing lists but didn't turn up anything. > > There was an article posted to Newsforge today about benchmarking > MySQL on different operating systems. oh! thanks...but according to this article, Linux outperformed FreeBSD in every metric shown :-( is that accurate? > > The customer is looking for some kind of validation that he'll be > > safe running his database on FreeBSD. > > I don't usually look at benchmarks when wondering if my databases are > 'safe'. Perhaps you misunderstood or I fired that email off to quickly. In addition to benchmarks, he's also looking for anything to show that he won't be a pioneer in using large MySQL databases on FreeBSD. In other words, I'd love to point this customer to FreeBSD if it makes sense for them. any help appreciated! thanks! -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 02:18:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D64916A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:18:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2435143D41 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:18:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c51so43626rne for ; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:18:22 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=slS5qgS/i8EyUzIFyq6AXn3A3YPI+N1QV8pq9Ti6tgEF0ZVg2oQKOJtG4vrLE5K4JsKrhW+ww4uIiurhWtANaIg6eg5ekqRUw1Pbpf69aOzyoh5pbp4gaYLp/kjTLSYoV5vBNnKze45f/IXLJ+x7YROsyH9dNJEUlBdBedOm8PU= Received: by 10.38.14.25 with SMTP id 25mr77317rnn; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:18:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:18:22 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:18:23 -0000 On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:13:39 +0000 (GMT), Robert Watson wrote: > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > > I'd like to voice my support for the logo competition. > > > > I was particularly pleased to read a comment on Daemon News that Beastie > > would remain the mascot and that the logo and mascot are being > > separated. I am hopeful that this comment was accurate. > > > > ...now, if I could only draw...... > > The comment is accurate. We'd like to get a logo we can provide to > companies that are willing to stick it on their products as "supporting > FreeBSD" -- while we all love the Daemon, we know that not every company > can stick it on their Ethernet card box or server support web page. The > intent is to keep Beastie as the Mascot, and you'll still see him all over > the place. I can't imagine that FreeBSD t-shirts will stop holding him, > let alone the large number of web pages, CDROM distributions, and so on. > And don't forget the stuffed animal Beasties :-). > So the logo action would essentialy be an addition of a new, specific logo (with its own usage guidelines I imagine?) and not really a transition to a new one? > > Robert N M Watson > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 02:54:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 758C216A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:54:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4EDDD43D39 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:54:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 6632 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 02:54:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by salvador with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 02:54:29 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050210025429.UJJB1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:54:29 +0800 Message-ID: <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:56:31 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew L. Gould" References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> In-Reply-To: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:54:33 -0000 Hi, this all sounds like a very stupid idea to me. This also sounds like the effort in the EU banning the swastika not seeing that some two billion people using it as a religious symbol. I never ever heard that a company has chosen a product because of its logo. Do you believe that Windows is this successful because of its logo? Erich Andrew L. Gould wrote: > I'd like to voice my support for the logo competition. > > I was particularly pleased to read a comment on Daemon News that Beastie > would remain the mascot and that the logo and mascot are being > separated. I am hopeful that this comment was accurate. > > ...now, if I could only draw...... > > Andrew Gould > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 03:08:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F3816A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:08:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C6D43D31 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:08:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:1671) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cz4gN-0006wr-4T for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:07:55 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:59:44 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:51:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 4.0: Logo contest, and lessons from the XFree86 d ebacle X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:08:27 -0000 From: Farid Hajji [mailto:farid.hajji@ob.kamp.net] > Remember what happened with the XFree86 project as they choose > to change their license terms without community support? Now > we have X.org and most relevant developers moved there, just > because XFree86's Mgmt failed to address the community's > concerns appropriately. This is completely different from the current controversy. XFree86 had been gaining a reputation for quite a while. The licensing switch was merely "the last straw". The logo issue is very different. Beastie is not going away, as has been mentioned by numerous posts and clarifications. The logo is something new, as FreeBSD does not currently have one (neither does OpenBSD or Linux, BTW). David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 03:09:13 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AB6116A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:09:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CF11443D2D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:09:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 31408 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 03:09:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by sarajevo with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 03:09:10 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050210030909.QFJK1207.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:09:09 +0800 Message-ID: <420AD0D0.9030800@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:11:12 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ricardo Alves dos Reis References: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> In-Reply-To: <420A4781.8080002@yahoo.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:09:13 -0000 Hi, as I said in a different thread to the same subject, this is a stupid idea. Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The > FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo The EU is starting a procedure to ban the swastika from use as it was used by some 100 million nazis and most of them are meanwhile dead. The EU is totally ignoring the fact that some 2 billion people are using it as a religious symbol. The same things happens here too. A minority is making a lot of noise and the majority is expected to move. People who do not like the new logo should come up with the same reasons against the new one. It is alsways possible with this kind of arguments to be against everything. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 03:20:31 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA55716A4D0 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:20:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7551F43D3F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:20:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 2241 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 03:20:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by sarajevo with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 03:20:29 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050210032028.UKNK1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:20:28 +0800 Message-ID: <420AD377.40501@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:22:31 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stheg olloydson References: <20050209212950.50123.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050209212950.50123.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: core@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: kuriyama@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:20:32 -0000 Hi, stheg olloydson wrote: > Any communications should come from someone with an easy-to-pronounce > northern European surname (but not French) and, if at all possible, a > first name that sounds American. Can I suggest Mark from a lovely town in Austria? www.fucking.at This is the next kind of problems FreeBSD could face. Using words which have a very different meaning in some other language. I think it is absolutely not possible to cater for all those things. Just leave the logo as it is. Erich PS My name would meet Sthegs suggestion and people would still not be able to pronounce it properly From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 03:24:13 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4130116A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:24:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zircon.seattle.wa.us (dsl231-043-165.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net [216.231.43.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C463443D41 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:24:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joe@zircon.seattle.wa.us) Received: (qmail 22742 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 03:26:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO localhost.zircon.seattle.wa.us) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 03:26:16 -0000 From: Joe Kelsey To: Matt Olander In-Reply-To: <20050209164359.J31921@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> <20050210005856.GC818@thened.net> <20050209164359.J31921@knight.ixsystems.net> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:26:15 -0800 Message-Id: <1108005975.683.47.camel@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 5.3 MySQL Performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:24:13 -0000 On Wed, 2005-02-09 at 16:44 -0800, Matt Olander wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 07:58:56PM -0500, Alec Berryman wrote: > > > Also, does anybody have any FreeBSD 5.3/MySQL benchmarks? I searched > > > the mailing lists but didn't turn up anything. > > > > There was an article posted to Newsforge today about benchmarking > > MySQL on different operating systems. > > oh! thanks...but according to this article, Linux outperformed FreeBSD > in every metric shown :-( > > is that accurate? LinuxThreads is the WORST implementation of threading that anyone can imagine. Do not ever use Linux or the horrid LinuxThreads for anything that you want to save. Any so-called "benchmark" comparing Linux to anything else (especially windoze) has been polluted by the tradition in the linux/windoze world of running their disks in the completely unsafe "asynchronous" mode so popular with the ATA disk drive manufacturers. This method means that you never actually know whether or not the drive ever writes your data on the disk. It could just sit in the cache waiting for a power failure so that you lose everything. This "async" mode means that the benchmarks "look" fast but are completely unsafe. > > > The customer is looking for some kind of validation that he'll be > > > safe running his database on FreeBSD. > > > > I don't usually look at benchmarks when wondering if my databases are > > 'safe'. > > Perhaps you misunderstood or I fired that email off to quickly. In > addition to benchmarks, he's also looking for anything to show that > he won't be a pioneer in using large MySQL databases on FreeBSD. > > In other words, I'd love to point this customer to FreeBSD if it makes > sense for them. any help appreciated! Many companies have used FreeBSD and MySQL for years and years. There is no reason to not jump to FreeBSD and start using MySQL. At my last job, we ran very large MySQL databases on FreeBSD. For speed we used 15,000 RPM SCSI-3 disk drives. This gives you all the speed you need with the guaranteed safety of FreeBSD. Of course, SCSI-3 15,000 RPM drives are more expensive than those wimpy ATA drives. Go to FreeBSD. Leave that unsafe Linux crap in the dust. /Joe From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 03:28:50 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC5B16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:28:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pittgoth.com (14.zlnp1.xdsl.nauticom.net [209.195.149.111]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E76D43D1F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:28:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mobile.pittgoth.com (ip68-230-188-82.dc.dc.cox.net [68.230.188.82]) (authenticated bits=0) by pittgoth.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A3SmKw028886 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:28:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:28:50 -0500 From: Tom Rhodes To: Erich Dollansky Message-ID: <20050209222850.0b94abad@mobile.pittgoth.com> In-Reply-To: <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.0.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd6.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:28:51 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:56:31 +0800 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > this all sounds like a very stupid idea to me. Thanks! > > This also sounds like the effort in the EU banning the swastika not > seeing that some two billion people using it as a religious symbol. Your conspiracy is over there -------> > > I never ever heard that a company has chosen a product because of its logo. I have. Can I put my hand up and vote now? > > Do you believe that Windows is this successful because of its logo? No. But the blue screens and hundreds of issues in the knowledge base doesn't seem to hurt them much either. I hear all of this "Stupid idea because of this this" and "cry and whine because of that" How does the *logo* (note, two dictionaries consider logo and mascot different) being added hurt you? I mean, other than somehow forcing you to take a few moments to craft an email; me as well. This will also make it much easier to make clothing items which can be sold to the general public, it also offers choice. So many complain that MS limits choice, aren't we doing that now? We still need Kirks permission IIRC, to print designs with Beastie on them. Don't you think this may push advocacy, why hinder that movement in any way? I think this is the last I'll say about the matter though. -- Tom Rhodes From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 03:40:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E55B16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:40:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 360DB43D46 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:40:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 17670 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 03:40:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by salvador with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 03:40:30 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050210034030.ULRL1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:40:30 +0800 Message-ID: <420AD829.3090108@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:42:33 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tom Rhodes References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <20050209222850.0b94abad@mobile.pittgoth.com> In-Reply-To: <20050209222850.0b94abad@mobile.pittgoth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:40:33 -0000 Hi, Tom Rhodes wrote: > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:56:31 +0800 > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > How does the *logo* (note, two dictionaries consider logo and > mascot different) being added hurt you? I mean, other than I just checked the website www.freebsd.org and I see a small "read devil" used there as something I would call a logo. It looks like the "read devil" used as the mascot. Why don't we keep it that way? Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 03:44:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 152BF16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:44:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from neptune.atopia.net (neptune.atopia.net [209.128.231.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56F943D2D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:44:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dcp1990@neptune.atopia.net) Received: by neptune.atopia.net (Postfix, from userid 1034) id 74F314285; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:44:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:44:09 -0500 From: Dan Ponte To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20050210034409.GA15195@neptune.atopia.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <20050209222850.0b94abad@mobile.pittgoth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050209222850.0b94abad@mobile.pittgoth.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:44:10 -0000 On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 10:28:50PM -0500, Tom Rhodes was witnessed plotting the following conspiracy: > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:56:31 +0800 > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > this all sounds like a very stupid idea to me. > > Thanks! > > > > > This also sounds like the effort in the EU banning the swastika not > > seeing that some two billion people using it as a religious symbol. > > Your conspiracy is over there -------> I don't believe that is all that farfetched; indeed, Jun mentioned in his "announcement" (as it was seemingly leaked) that it may offend some, and I don't think that scottl's commit removing Beastie from the loader menu speaks against it, either. FreeBSD has a long history of tradition behind it; breaking said tradition in the name of political correctness can only hinder. > > > > I never ever heard that a company has chosen a product because of its logo. > > I have. Can I put my hand up and vote now? > > > > > Do you believe that Windows is this successful because of its logo? > > No. But the blue screens and hundreds of issues in the knowledge > base doesn't seem to hurt them much either. > > I hear all of this "Stupid idea because of this this" and "cry and > whine because of that" > > How does the *logo* (note, two dictionaries consider logo and > mascot different) being added hurt you? I mean, other than > somehow forcing you to take a few moments to craft an email; me > as well. > > This will also make it much easier to make clothing items which > can be sold to the general public, it also offers choice. So > many complain that MS limits choice, aren't we doing that now? > We still need Kirks permission IIRC, to print designs with > Beastie on them. Don't you think this may push advocacy, why > hinder that movement in any way? > > I think this is the last I'll say about the matter though. > -- Dan Ponte http://www.theamigan.net/ The debate rages on: Is PL/I Bachtrian or Dromedary? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 03:49:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3970A16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:49:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pittgoth.com (14.zlnp1.xdsl.nauticom.net [209.195.149.111]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3901543D2D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:49:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mobile.pittgoth.com (ip68-230-188-82.dc.dc.cox.net [68.230.188.82]) (authenticated bits=0) by pittgoth.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A3nLKw028979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:49:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:49:22 -0500 From: Tom Rhodes To: Dan Ponte Message-ID: <20050209224922.77110580@mobile.pittgoth.com> In-Reply-To: <20050210034409.GA15195@neptune.atopia.net> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <20050209222850.0b94abad@mobile.pittgoth.com> <20050210034409.GA15195@neptune.atopia.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.0.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd6.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:49:27 -0000 On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:44:09 -0500 Dan Ponte wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 10:28:50PM -0500, Tom Rhodes was witnessed plotting the following conspiracy: > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:56:31 +0800 > > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > this all sounds like a very stupid idea to me. > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > This also sounds like the effort in the EU banning the swastika not > > > seeing that some two billion people using it as a religious symbol. > > > > Your conspiracy is over there -------> > > I don't believe that is all that farfetched; indeed, Jun mentioned in > his "announcement" (as it was seemingly leaked) that it may offend some, > and I don't think that scottl's commit removing Beastie from the loader > menu speaks against it, either. FreeBSD has a long history of tradition > behind it; breaking said tradition in the name of political correctness > can only hinder. Admittedly so, I wasn't too happy about the removal either, but I let it go. -- Tom Rhodes From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 03:54:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7829916A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:54:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pittgoth.com (14.zlnp1.xdsl.nauticom.net [209.195.149.111]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16D3743D31 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:54:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mobile.pittgoth.com (ip68-230-188-82.dc.dc.cox.net [68.230.188.82]) (authenticated bits=0) by pittgoth.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A3sUKw028991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:54:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:54:31 -0500 From: Tom Rhodes To: Erich Dollansky Message-ID: <20050209225431.1aee9579@mobile.pittgoth.com> In-Reply-To: <420AD829.3090108@pacific.net.sg> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <20050209222850.0b94abad@mobile.pittgoth.com> <420AD829.3090108@pacific.net.sg> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.0.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd6.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:54:32 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:42:33 +0800 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > Tom Rhodes wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:56:31 +0800 > > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > > > > How does the *logo* (note, two dictionaries consider logo and > > mascot different) being added hurt you? I mean, other than > > I just checked the website www.freebsd.org and I see a small "read > devil" used there as something I would call a logo. It looks like the > "read devil" used as the mascot. Can we swap what they're called? > > Why don't we keep it that way? Why can't we have two? Is there a law I'm missing? You can still use Beastie, we aren't going to force anyone to use either/or. I consider it being offered a choice. -- Tom Rhodes From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 04:10:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B8E16A4D0 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:10:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFE643D41 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:10:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1Cz5ec-0005FF-TQ; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:10:11 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: Erich Dollansky Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:10:39 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> In-Reply-To: <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502092210.39490.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc79703bdc6303f063313a209ae872a925350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:10:23 -0000 On Wednesday 09 February 2005 08:56 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > this all sounds like a very stupid idea to me. > > This also sounds like the effort in the EU banning the swastika not > seeing that some two billion people using it as a religious symbol. No. Your statement would be correct if Beastie were losing his status as the mascot. Beastie is retaining his status as the mascot. > > I never ever heard that a company has chosen a product because of its > logo. > > Do you believe that Windows is this successful because of its logo? > > Erich > FreeBSD has a powerful, serious, professional side that Beastie does not express well. I think a new logo, in addition to having Beastie as a mascot, would help create an image for FreeBSD that is more complete and accurate. A symbol should never become more important than the object/concept/principle it symbolizes. All religious and Political Correctness issues aside, do you have any objections to a more complete and accurate image for FreeBSD? Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 04:19:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440BF16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:19:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1ACA243D1D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:19:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 27129 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 04:19:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by salvador with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 04:19:32 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050210041931.UNRN1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:19:31 +0800 Message-ID: <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:21:35 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew L. Gould" References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <200502092210.39490.algould@datawok.com> In-Reply-To: <200502092210.39490.algould@datawok.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:19:35 -0000 Hi, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 08:56 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>this all sounds like a very stupid idea to me. >> >>This also sounds like the effort in the EU banning the swastika not >>seeing that some two billion people using it as a religious symbol. > > > No. Your statement would be correct if Beastie were losing his status > as the mascot. Beastie is retaining his status as the mascot. > Beastie is losing its status as a logo. > >>I never ever heard that a company has chosen a product because of its >>logo. >> >>Do you believe that Windows is this successful because of its logo? >> >>Erich >> > > > FreeBSD has a powerful, serious, professional side that Beastie does not Do above attributes apply to the logo of the most successful software package known as Windows? http://www.microsoft.com/windows/default.mspx > All religious and Political Correctness issues aside, do you have any > objections to a more complete and accurate image for FreeBSD? > FreeBSD already has this image. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 04:34:51 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94B716A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:34:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pittgoth.com (14.zlnp1.xdsl.nauticom.net [209.195.149.111]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FDE43D46 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:34:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mobile.pittgoth.com (ip68-230-188-82.dc.dc.cox.net [68.230.188.82]) (authenticated bits=0) by pittgoth.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1A4YmKw029145 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:34:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:34:49 -0500 From: Tom Rhodes To: Erich Dollansky Message-ID: <20050209233449.6f2906e0@mobile.pittgoth.com> In-Reply-To: <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <200502092210.39490.algould@datawok.com> <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.0.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd6.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:34:52 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:21:35 +0800 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 08:56 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > >>Hi, > >> > >>this all sounds like a very stupid idea to me. > >> > >>This also sounds like the effort in the EU banning the swastika not > >>seeing that some two billion people using it as a religious symbol. > > > > > > No. Your statement would be correct if Beastie were losing his status > > as the mascot. Beastie is retaining his status as the mascot. > > > Beastie is losing its status as a logo. No he is not, and will not until YOU and everyone else chooses to drop him. This is completely theoretical and goes against everything being said by those who are intending to keep both; i.e.: core, and the many others who will gladly use both. > > > >>I never ever heard that a company has chosen a product because of its > >>logo. > >> > >>Do you believe that Windows is this successful because of its logo? > >> > >>Erich > >> > > > > > > FreeBSD has a powerful, serious, professional side that Beastie does not > > Do above attributes apply to the logo of the most successful software > package known as Windows? > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/default.mspx Hi, we are not Microsoft. > > > All religious and Political Correctness issues aside, do you have any > > objections to a more complete and accurate image for FreeBSD? > > > FreeBSD already has this image. And keeping us from enhancing this image is not the way to go. :( -- Tom Rhodes From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 04:39:30 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC84A16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:39:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from chen.org.nz (chen.org.nz [210.54.19.51]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7674443D45 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:39:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jonc@chen.org.nz) Received: by chen.org.nz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 527E15647C; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:39:28 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:39:28 +1300 From: Jonathan Chen To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050210043928.GA7862@osiris.chen.org.nz> References: <200502091643.15882.algould@datawok.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:39:30 -0000 On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 10:46:51PM +0000, Robert Watson wrote: > Yup. And the real announcement text, asks specifically for a logo that > can be used *with* the current mascot, or separately, so the design should > work with the beastie. If readers could vote for the logo they like, I suspect that a "Beastie Logo" would win hands down. -- Jonathan Chen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you're right 90% of the time, why quibble about the remaining 3%? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 04:47:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65BE916A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:47:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120C743D31 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:47:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1Cz6F0-0008Ih-6O; Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:47:46 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: Erich Dollansky Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:48:15 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <200502092210.39490.algould@datawok.com> <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> In-Reply-To: <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502092248.15008.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bcadb62528dc14af3c39549e0c976941c7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:47:47 -0000 On Wednesday 09 February 2005 10:21 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 08:56 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote: > >>Hi, > >> > >>this all sounds like a very stupid idea to me. > >> > >>This also sounds like the effort in the EU banning the swastika not > >>seeing that some two billion people using it as a religious symbol. > > > > No. Your statement would be correct if Beastie were losing his > > status as the mascot. Beastie is retaining his status as the > > mascot. > > Beastie is losing its status as a logo. > > >>I never ever heard that a company has chosen a product because of > >> its logo. > >> > >>Do you believe that Windows is this successful because of its logo? > >> > >>Erich > > > > FreeBSD has a powerful, serious, professional side that Beastie > > does not > > Do above attributes apply to the logo of the most successful software > package known as Windows? > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/default.mspx I care about the OS's popularity only for the driver support it may someday bring. I care more about spending more time talking about FreeBSD's strengths than explaining that the devil is a daemon, which has both a Greek definition and is also an acronym. > > > All religious and Political Correctness issues aside, do you have > > any objections to a more complete and accurate image for FreeBSD? > > FreeBSD already has this image. Only in tight circles where it is well known. Where I live and work, it is mostly unknown. Those who have heard of it think that it's either a Linux distribution or one of those hacker tools. You know about hackers, don't you? They're young, bright criminals that create computer viruses and steal your personal identity. People fear the unknown. Add to the unknown, add a group of people that have been negatively stereotyped by Hollywood and the news media, and a logo that may represent something less than wholesome. I live in East Texas and work for a hospital in West Texas. In both ends of this great state, which I love dearly, I am hesitant to wear my Beastie t-shirts. Windows is king here, and anything not supported by a major vendor must be a tool used by malcontents. I administer the only *nix computer at my workplace. Since I am NOT a member of the IS department, I hope you can imagine the trouble I went through to get permission to use FreeBSD. It was only after turnover of key IS positions that I was able to establish good working relationships with IS personnel. Things are good now; but were not always so. Andrew Gould > > Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 05:21:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D97F16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:21:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from splinter.bowdoin.edu (splinter.bowdoin.edu [139.140.181.132]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 070BE43D2F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:21:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from alec@thened.net) Received: by splinter.bowdoin.edu (Postfix, from userid 12008) id 273DE78A2; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:21:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:21:24 -0500 From: Alec Berryman To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050210052124.GH818@thened.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> <20050210005856.GC818@thened.net> <20050209164359.J31921@knight.ixsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0XhtP95kHFp3KGBe" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050209164359.J31921@knight.ixsystems.net> X-Ned-Wuz-Here: Yes X-GPG-Fingerprint: 3DB5 8785 53D9 8BF4 5049 B6B9 02E7 7FD9 881C 85C4 X-GPG-Key: http://www.thened.net/~alec/static/alec.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Re: FreeBSD 5.3 MySQL Performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:21:25 -0000 --0XhtP95kHFp3KGBe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Matt Olander on 2005-02-09 16:44:00 -0800: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 07:58:56PM -0500, Alec Berryman wrote: > > > > I don't usually look at benchmarks when wondering if my databases > > are 'safe'. >=20 > Perhaps you misunderstood or I fired that email off to quickly. Never can be to careful on these advocacy lists... :) > In addition to benchmarks, he's also looking for anything to show > that he won't be a pioneer in using large MySQL databases on > FreeBSD. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that Yahoo! does a lot with FreeBSD and MySQL. If you could verify this, I'd say that's convincing. --0XhtP95kHFp3KGBe Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (NetBSD) iD8DBQFCCu9TAud/2YgchcQRAvV5AJ9OM3DI94w+lbIzbDPJfqmXfelydgCgt11b RCirioihg7BkrLooJ4CIn/g= =UgGh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0XhtP95kHFp3KGBe-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 05:33:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74C0E16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:33:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp814.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp814.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 064D043D41 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:33:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.27.163 with login) by smtp814.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 05:33:07 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:33:04 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> <200502092248.15008.algould@datawok.com> In-Reply-To: <200502092248.15008.algould@datawok.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502092133.04884.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:33:08 -0000 On Wednesday 09 February 2005 08:48 pm, "Andrew L. Gould" wrote: > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 10:21 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 08:56 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > >>Hi, > > >> > > >>this all sounds like a very stupid idea to me. > > >> > > >>This also sounds like the effort in the EU banning the swastika > > >> not seeing that some two billion people using it as a religious > > >> symbol. > > > > > > No. Your statement would be correct if Beastie were losing his > > > status as the mascot. Beastie is retaining his status as the > > > mascot. > > > > Beastie is losing its status as a logo. > > > > >>I never ever heard that a company has chosen a product because of > > >> its logo. > > >> > > >>Do you believe that Windows is this successful because of its > > >> logo? > > >> > > >>Erich > > > > > > FreeBSD has a powerful, serious, professional side that Beastie > > > does not > > > > Do above attributes apply to the logo of the most successful > > software package known as Windows? > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/default.mspx > > I care about the OS's popularity only for the driver support it may > someday bring. I care more about spending more time talking about > FreeBSD's strengths than explaining that the devil is a daemon, which > has both a Greek definition and is also an acronym. > > > > All religious and Political Correctness issues aside, do you have > > > any objections to a more complete and accurate image for FreeBSD? > > > > FreeBSD already has this image. > > Only in tight circles where it is well known. Where I live and work, > it is mostly unknown. Those who have heard of it think that it's > either a Linux distribution or one of those hacker tools. You know > about hackers, don't you? They're young, bright criminals that > create computer viruses and steal your personal identity. I'm not sure how changing the logo is going to change that perception. If they're lumping in all unices into h4x0rw0r1d, then do they even know about the logo? Some people think that because malicious people use nmap it shouldn't be available to anyone. Personally, I don't listen to such people. Why should I? Money? > People fear the unknown. Add to the unknown, add a group of people > that have been negatively stereotyped by Hollywood and the news > media, and a logo that may represent something less than wholesome. > I live in East Texas and work for a hospital in West Texas. In both > ends of this great state, which I love dearly, I am hesitant to wear > my Beastie t-shirts. Windows is king here, and anything not > supported by a major vendor must be a tool used by malcontents. I > administer the only *nix computer at my workplace. Since I am NOT a > member of the IS department, I hope you can imagine the trouble I > went through to get permission to use FreeBSD. It was only after > turnover of key IS positions that I was able to establish good > working relationships with IS personnel. Things are good now; but > were not always so. Would it have been easier if you had tried to get permission to use NetBSD instead? - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 06:40:14 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80FF816A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:40:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A46FB43D41 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:40:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 20140 invoked by uid 555); 10 Feb 2005 06:45:18 -0000 Received: from shark (213.80.148.243) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1108017914-20073 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Feb 09:45:14 2005 +0300 (MSK) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 078B09DB58; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:39:58 +0300 (MSK) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:39:58 +0300 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050210063958.GA6242@shark.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FL5UXtIhxfXey3p5" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Listening-To: Silence Subject: Beastie and the Bible X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:40:14 -0000 --FL5UXtIhxfXey3p5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Revelations of John 12:9 > The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the > devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to > the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. The `canonical' devil is indeed the snake. He/it isn't described as being either red or horned. The current logo doesn't seem to be offensive according to the Bible (which means if you find it offensive, it's more like a prejudice of yours). Could that be an argument to keep the it as it is? Of course this has to be proved for other religions. I'm tired of the questions@ holy wars already... Please CC me, as I'm not on this list. --=20 DoubleF I used to work in a fire hydrant factory. You couldn't park anywhere near the place. -- Steven Wright --FL5UXtIhxfXey3p5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCCwG8wo7hT/9lVdwRAnVqAJ0Z0Can1v8Baca3AJbR86jTuUz4rgCcCzof JxjWwFnIL1ysce7SU/cMhrk= =jDJy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FL5UXtIhxfXey3p5-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 07:20:50 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 805C416A4CE; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:20:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D140B43D4C; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:20:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) j1A7Khj18671; Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:20:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Joe Kelsey" , "Matt Olander" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:20:42 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <1108005975.683.47.camel@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD 5.3 MySQL Performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:20:50 -0000 owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org wrote: > On Wed, 2005-02-09 at 16:44 -0800, Matt Olander wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 07:58:56PM -0500, Alec Berryman wrote: >>>> Also, does anybody have any FreeBSD 5.3/MySQL benchmarks? I >>>> searched the mailing lists but didn't turn up anything. >>> >>> There was an article posted to Newsforge today about benchmarking >>> MySQL on different operating systems. >> >> oh! thanks...but according to this article, Linux outperformed >> FreeBSD in every metric shown :-( >> No, not true, reread the article. Performance was on par for uniprocessor versions of Linux and FreeBSD for most tests. Also, the author said the following about the testing: "highest performer in one category for a limited set of tests does not a "best" operating system make." Please keep in mind that editors of publications love benchmarking articles, because they always get someone's tit in a wringer, and attract a lot of attention. And attention sells newspapers. But you shouldn't take these things too seriously. The article points out a few things and the accompanying reader responses point out a few more things that are educational if you are choosing to run a database on a UNIX system, but by no means should the article be used as the sole basis for choosing one OS over another. People that do benchmarking and publish the results are generally hoping to help point out problems. Sometimes this is because they have an axe to grind and want to see their favorite OS or program or whatever get some attention, sometimes just because it's nice to see some of your work in print. But regardless of why they do it, the results are valuable, because if problems that benchmarking reveals wern't pointed out, they wouldn't ever get fixed. My take on the article is the most surprising thing in it was that Sun's own support staff couldn't answer the authors query about why Solaris was so slow, and the author finally figured it out by himself (The filesystem wasn't mounted with the forcedirect option) and set the needed option, whereupon performance dramatically improved. We always hear from commercial OS vendors how their products are so much better because they are supported - well it seems to me that if Sun's support was this bad for their own OS, well that throws the entire argument out the window, don't it? >> is that accurate? > > LinuxThreads is the WORST implementation of threading that anyone can > imagine. Do not ever use Linux or the horrid LinuxThreads for > anything that you want to save. > > Any so-called "benchmark" comparing Linux to anything else (especially > windoze) has been polluted by the tradition in the linux/windoze world > of running their disks in the completely unsafe "asynchronous" mode so > popular with the ATA disk drive manufacturers. The author of the article avoided this by using a test method that in his words: "I performed one test run to prime the system, almost all of the data was cached by MySQL, so there was little or no disk access." > > Many companies have used FreeBSD and MySQL for years and years. There > is no reason to not jump to FreeBSD and start using MySQL. Exactly, we use MySQL and FreeBSD quite a lot and have no problem with it. > At my last > job, we ran very large MySQL databases on FreeBSD. For speed we used > 15,000 RPM SCSI-3 disk drives. This gives you all the speed you need > with the guaranteed safety of FreeBSD. Of course, SCSI-3 15,000 RPM > drives are more expensive than those wimpy ATA drives. > You see, this here points out the crux of the problem. Boiled down the article essentially said that Linux performed better because it's SMP implementation allowed mysql to take advantage of both CPU's while FreeBSD's SMP implementation didn't. But you see the problem with this is that in a real life situation, it is not often that you have such a small database and such a large amount of system memory that the OS can load the entire database into a disk cache in ram. As you can no doubt understand, if the database is on disk all the additional CPU's in the world won't make the database run any faster once the disk channel gets saturated, which is easy to do. And even if you can load the entire database in ram, if you make a lot of writes to it, the system has to push these to the disk channel eventually, unless of course you like for your entire database to vanish if there's a power interruption or system crash of some kind. So for a situation of a steady stream of writes, you end up I/O bound again. SMP on a database is no help if the system is I/O bound. And if your database is going to I/O bind, because of how it's used and setup and how big it is, then this benchmark article is completely useless to you. And even if your database isn't going to I/O bind then read the following comment one of the readers posted regarding OpenBSD and FreeBSD: "They both use userland only threading, and therefore mysql is only ever running on a single CPU, no matter how many are in the system ...Different processes will run on different CPUs just fine, postgresql for instance would see an increase in perfomance on these platforms" One last thing about SMP - rarely is mysql used in a vacuum, many times it's paired up with apache. In those cases if there's multiple accesses to the server at the same time then even though mysql only runs on 1 cpu, an instance of apache may be on the other cpu at the same time, answering some other query. So when you take in all the other stuff on a typical production mysql server, the multithreading in linux isn't going to make any difference for just 2 CPU's. Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 07:20:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5859116A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:20:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5D543D1F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:20:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050210072053i92004u3cee>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:20:54 +0000 Message-ID: <420B0B54.2080205@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:20:52 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew L. Gould" References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> In-Reply-To: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:20:55 -0000 Andrew L. Gould wrote: >I'd like to voice my support for the logo competition. > >I was particularly pleased to read a comment on Daemon News that Beastie >would remain the mascot and that the logo and mascot are being >separated. I am hopeful that this comment was accurate. > >...now, if I could only draw...... > >Andrew Gould > > I'd like to think that I had a hand in making this logo competition happen through all my rantings about image and marketing two months ago. If I was then I would like to state my intentions. I in no way support the removal of Beastie the Daemon mascot. The main thing I wanted was just a "retooling" of the current logo but I will support changing the logo as long as Beastie is not going anywhere. Hopefully I'll have finished rolling out the new intra/extranet so I can participate. :-) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 07:48:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B740416A4CE; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:48:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C270643D4C; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:48:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1A7lb00058201; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:47:37 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id j1A7laf1058198; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:47:36 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:47:36 +0200 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: "Andrew L. Gould" Message-ID: <20050210074736.GA34499@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <20050209214206.GA21616@nevermind.kiev.ua> <420A8581.3040605@telus.net> <200502091631.08593.algould@datawok.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200502091631.08593.algould@datawok.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.81, clamav-milter version 0.81b on kurush.osdn.org.ua X-Virus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:48:25 -0000 Hello, Andrew L. Gould! On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 04:31:08PM -0600, you wrote: > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 03:49 pm, Peter Kieser wrote: > > When the Project decides that political correctness is more important > > than a tradition dating back over 20 years, something is wrong. > > > > Personally I really don't care if a user selects another OS based on > > the fact that we have a devil as our mascot. They are better off on > > another OS anyways, because they're likely to cause problems -- > > because people with that kind of attitude are likely to bring up > > other "issues" with our "product". I agree with this statement. If people see only mascot and only in way they want to see it - as something evil (assuming they are cristians), I'd assume that those people are not self-motivated to find out what does mascot mean in reality, so they won't try to solve their problems by themselves, so we will have more and more lame users like in Linux, who can only point'n'click, such users in some time probably will become developers, but do we really want them to be allowed to make Linux out of FreeBSD?.. About your question: ask yourself "Are we going to be professionals?" > > > > --Peter > > Do you object to FreeBSD having a logo that portrays the fact that it's > a professional grade operating system? Beastie is staying; but Beastie > only portrays one side of FreeBSD. The professional side of FreeBSD > deserves attention and expression. > > I don't see a new logo as bowing to Political Correctness as much as > improving communication. Images project messages; and frequently > Beastie (inadvertently) sends the wrong message. Once I explain the > history behind Beastie, everyone whom I've talked to has been okay with > it. The problem is that I often have to resolve the Beastie issue > before the listener is ready to hear about computer security, > reliability, etc. Fork is for security :) > Also, please keep in mind, it's not always about whether we get new > users. FreeBSD's image may affect whether a business chooses to > associate itself with FreeBSD by creating FreeBSD drivers for its > products or supporting FreeBSD development. Business is people; and > people are not perfectly rational. PR issues influence business > decisions now more than ever. Anyway, as far as I can see, regular users and small contributors like me (full FreeBSD mirror, Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group, some ports), won't be taken in account what making final decisions. And most of much more senior developers/users also. Looks like "TheoDeraadt"craty. Thanks. -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 08:25:14 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F1E16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:25:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (storm.uk.FreeBSD.org [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DDD143D39 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:25:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1A8PBfD047906; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:25:11 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost)j1A8PAgq047905; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:25:10 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grovel.grondar.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1A8KEtM032988; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:20:14 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Message-Id: <200502100820.j1A8KEtM032988@grovel.grondar.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.0 06/18/2004 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Erich Dollansky From: Mark Murray In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:11:12 +0800." <420AD0D0.9030800@pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:20:14 +0000 Sender: mark@grondar.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:25:14 -0000 Erich Dollansky writes: > The EU is starting a procedure to ban the swastika from use as it was > used by some 100 million nazis and most of them are meanwhile dead. The > EU is totally ignoring the fact that some 2 billion people are using it > as a religious symbol. This is slightly overstating the situation. Certainly the "hakenkreuz" is illegal in the form that the nazis used it, but the Buddhist(Hindu?) form is comaparatively rare in EU, and is thus being kinda ignored, to its detriment. There is recognition of this fact, and publicity is helping to educate the right folks. > The same things happens here too. A minority is making a lot of noise > and the majority is expected to move. Outright crap. This is conspiracy theory rubbish. > People who do not like the new logo should come up with the same reasons > against the new one. It is alsways possible with this kind of arguments > to be against everything. Huh? There _are_ concerns about the controversial nature of Beastie, as well as his reproducability. We need a logo that is 1) Simple to reproduce at all sizes and with limited colours. The current images of Beastie (used where a simple, FreeBSD-specific logo would be more appropriate) is hard to reproduce on marketing materials because its too complex for the printing process, and doesn't scale well to small icons and/or large graphics. 2) Non-controversial. We want a logo that manufacturers can put on their box next to a sign that says "Works with FreeBSD", and we dont want to get blowback from the company saying "When we put the devil on the box, we got boatloads of letters complaining". What would happen if the religious swastika was used as a manufacturing logo on (say) T-shirts sold in Israel or USA (assuming its not banned there). I suggest it would be a marketing disaster when folks who don't know the difference kick up a fuss, and is thus a LOUSY choice for a logo, even though it is not used as a nazi symbol. THIS is what the logo competition is about. Beastie the mascot is here to stay. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 08:35:41 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1829E16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:35:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B099A43D46 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:35:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1Cz9nX-0002Aq-7H; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:35:39 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: Joshua Tinnin Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:36:08 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <200502092248.15008.algould@datawok.com> <200502092133.04884.krinklyfig@spymac.com> In-Reply-To: <200502092133.04884.krinklyfig@spymac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502100236.08690.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc98c138a3797fedecaced00a4f993ac46350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 08:35:41 -0000 On Wednesday 09 February 2005 11:33 pm, Joshua Tinnin wrote: > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 08:48 pm, "Andrew L. Gould" > > wrote: > > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 10:21 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > > > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 08:56 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > >>Hi, > > > >> > > > >>this all sounds like a very stupid idea to me. > > > >> > > > >>This also sounds like the effort in the EU banning the swastika > > > >> not seeing that some two billion people using it as a > > > >> religious symbol. > > > > > > > > No. Your statement would be correct if Beastie were losing his > > > > status as the mascot. Beastie is retaining his status as the > > > > mascot. > > > > > > Beastie is losing its status as a logo. > > > > > > >>I never ever heard that a company has chosen a product because > > > >> of its logo. > > > >> > > > >>Do you believe that Windows is this successful because of its > > > >> logo? > > > >> > > > >>Erich > > > > > > > > FreeBSD has a powerful, serious, professional side that Beastie > > > > does not > > > > > > Do above attributes apply to the logo of the most successful > > > software package known as Windows? > > > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/default.mspx > > > > I care about the OS's popularity only for the driver support it may > > someday bring. I care more about spending more time talking about > > FreeBSD's strengths than explaining that the devil is a daemon, > > which has both a Greek definition and is also an acronym. > > > > > > All religious and Political Correctness issues aside, do you > > > > have any objections to a more complete and accurate image for > > > > FreeBSD? > > > > > > FreeBSD already has this image. > > > > Only in tight circles where it is well known. Where I live and > > work, it is mostly unknown. Those who have heard of it think that > > it's either a Linux distribution or one of those hacker tools. You > > know about hackers, don't you? They're young, bright criminals > > that create computer viruses and steal your personal identity. > > I'm not sure how changing the logo is going to change that > perception. If they're lumping in all unices into h4x0rw0r1d, then do > they even know about the logo? Some people think that because > malicious people use nmap it shouldn't be available to anyone. > Personally, I don't listen to such people. Why should I? Money? Right or wrong, logos help project an image to influence decisions. It's a marketing tool. If you don't have a need for the influence, you don't have a need to care. In that case, I don't see how you should care whether a new logo is added. You wouldn't be affected in any practical sense as Beastie would still be there as the mascot. > > > People fear the unknown. Add to the unknown, add a group of people > > that have been negatively stereotyped by Hollywood and the news > > media, and a logo that may represent something less than wholesome. > > I live in East Texas and work for a hospital in West Texas. In > > both ends of this great state, which I love dearly, I am hesitant > > to wear my Beastie t-shirts. Windows is king here, and anything > > not supported by a major vendor must be a tool used by malcontents. > > I administer the only *nix computer at my workplace. Since I am > > NOT a member of the IS department, I hope you can imagine the > > trouble I went through to get permission to use FreeBSD. It was > > only after turnover of key IS positions that I was able to > > establish good working relationships with IS personnel. Things are > > good now; but were not always so. > > Would it have been easier if you had tried to get permission to use > NetBSD instead? If you're refering to NetBSD's new logo, it would have been one fewer discussion. (Four and a half years ago, I think it would also have been the wrong OS decision!) The point is that logos help project an image. Yes, there are times when Beastie can be more of a hindrance than a help. If these issues don't matter to you, then you will be unaffected by the addition of a new logo. It's an issue more important to those involved in some form of advocacy. FreeBSD users who don't care what other people think either aren't involved in advocacy or need to rethink their positions. > > - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 09:09:53 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E716A16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:09:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7124243D5C for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:09:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 275F11C000AE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:09:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id F3AA31C0009D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:09:51 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050210090951998.F3AA31C0009D@mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:09:51 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <759143518.20050210100951@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050210004313.GA19539@fw.farid-hajji.net> References: <20050210004313.GA19539@fw.farid-hajji.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo contest, and lessons from the XFree86 debacle X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:09:54 -0000 Farid Hajji writes: > What's wrong with Beastie being the logo as well as the mascot? Mainly technical. Complex designs are expensive to print and hard to adapt to different media. That's why logos tend to be simple. A full-color image with shading and blending of colors requires a full-color process for proper rendering in any specific medium. When printing on paper, for example, it requires four- or six-color offset printing, with screens and trapping to allow for shading and blending and to prevent color fringing. This is really expensive. In display, full-color images tend to scale poorly, and if they contain lots of fine detail it tends to blur when the image is reduced. Most images like this are also bitmapped, which means they cannot be efficiently scaled--you need a separate version for many different possible sizes. Also, complex images are not retained as easily as simple images. For logos, you want something simple, that is easy to remember and recognize (so easy that anyone will immediately notice any variation in the logo). It must also be cheap and easy to adapt to many different media, which means that it should use no more than two or three colors, and the colors should not touch, and it should contain no shading or fine detail or blending of colors. It should still look okay in pure black and white (what if you have to embosse it on a CD case?), and it should look okay on a letterhead, a truck, or a sign in front of an office. In recent years (the past few decades), simple logos have been the rule and tend to look more professional than complex logos. > It's been BSD's most prominent brand since the very beginning. Now you're talking about a brand, but that is different from a mascot or a logo. > Changing this now is absolutely insane from a PR's POV. Developing a logo doesn't represent a change, since FreeBSD has no logo. > Remember what happened with the XFree86 project as they choose > to change their license terms without community support? Licensing is something completely different. It's best not to confuse licensing, mascots, brands, and logos. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 09:12:19 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 164D216A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:12:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE84B43D66 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:12:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id F25C21C00048 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:12:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D75371C00090 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:12:17 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050210091217882.D75371C00090@mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:12:17 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:12:19 -0000 Erich Dollansky writes: > Do you believe that Windows is this successful because of its logo? No, but the logo accounts for a lot of brand recognition for Windows, as it does for most other products. Simple logos are easy to retain and associate with specific products and services. Look at McDonald's golden arches or AOL's mysterious pyramid. Even Disney uses logos that are simplified versions of its most famous characters (stylized ears instead of a complete Mickey Mouse, for example). -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 09:16:53 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE31416A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:16:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF8B43D5A for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:16:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D88331C000AC for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:16:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id BA0FA1C000B3 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:16:52 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050210091652763.BA0FA1C000B3@mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:16:52 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1054192109.20050210101652@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <200502092210.39490.algould@datawok.com> <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:16:54 -0000 Erich Dollansky writes: > Do above attributes apply to the logo of the most successful software > package known as Windows? Yes. The Windows logo is simple and easy to recognize. The full logo is in multiple colors and requires screens to print, which is a bit of a drawback, but fortunately it is designed such that it can be printed with fewer colors, no screens, and in monochrome if necessary. It provides a very high level of brand recognition; even in straight black and white, people instantly recognize what the logo represents. > FreeBSD already has this image. FreeBSD doesn't have a _logo_. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 09:20:39 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 808B116A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:20:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B57543D39 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:20:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 5E81C1C000A6 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:20:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 40DA41C00091 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:20:38 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050210092038265.40DA41C00091@mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:20:37 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <259024940.20050210102037@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200502092133.04884.krinklyfig@spymac.com> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> <200502092248.15008.algould@datawok.com> <200502092133.04884.krinklyfig@spymac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:20:39 -0000 Joshua Tinnin writes: > Would it have been easier if you had tried to get permission to use > NetBSD instead? Look at the front page of www.netbsd.org. They have a nice, clean logo. I don't think that a logo makes or breaks deals, but from a public relations and marketing standpoint a good logo is extremely useful, and the lack of a logo (or a very busy logo that's hard to use and recognize) can be a liability. FreeBSD currently doesn't have a logo. The mascot is cute, but cute isn't a good idea when selling to the corporate world, which tends to choose tools based on their suitability to a purpose rather than on the personal attractiveness of the mascot. There's no harm in keeping the mascot, but you can't really use a mascot where a logo is needed. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 09:42:51 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F42516A4CE; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:42:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ew.co.za (g2.endorphinweb.co.za [196.41.15.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B7143D1F; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:42:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fbsdlists@mnet-online.de) X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by EW virus scanning services (www.ew.co.za) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (unverified [213.23.20.173]) by ew.co.za (SurgeMail 2.2c10) with ESMTP id 14867 for multiple; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:42:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: <259024940.20050210102037@wanadoo.fr> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> <200502092248.15008.algould@datawok.com> <200502092133.04884.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <259024940.20050210102037@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <163A0D80-7B48-11D9-B2EC-000A95D5F764@mnet-online.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Stephan Lichtenauer Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:42:32 +0100 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com X-Authenticated-User: s01@lichtenauer.co.za cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:42:51 -0000 Am 10.02.2005 um 10:20 schrieb Anthony Atkielski: > Joshua Tinnin writes: > > I don't think that a logo makes or breaks deals, but from a public > relations and marketing standpoint a good logo is extremely useful, and > the lack of a logo (or a very busy logo that's hard to use and > recognize) can be a liability. > > I agree. I even would bring back the issue of a separate freebsd.com website presenting the business case of FreeBSD while freebsd.org is perfect as it is now for people looking for technical information about how to use the system. Stephan From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 09:49:48 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC9D16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:49:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D63D43D1F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:49:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from thomas.leveille@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c51so81233rne for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:49:47 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=d+D29poa8GhPUhS1GfHKx8A85WRE8i4UmH6vNj7uUkBKyKZEF/KP0aMiZy/BQZIfy1yQf/eO3OSm6DR5onxUWDfm1i66bbm4izp0FJwaVCcu07pK07LEN7879nHKtYTGL4RTG5BFp2pH/hPNgeATWBQD3qyDf5Tma35pQ+Ow1OE= Received: by 10.38.209.65 with SMTP id h65mr278788rng; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:49:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.75.48 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:49:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:49:47 +0100 From: Thomas Leveille To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: artwork from hell X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Thomas Leveille List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:49:48 -0000 Beastie forever :) http://calinourson.free.fr/pics/FreeBSD/powertoflame.png From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 10:21:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD7F216A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:21:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630AB43D53 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:21:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so91478wra for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:21:48 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=GMbMuIAFDtRL5zzLN5CFxFWqCfRBLpQaoR8eJs+IT1XEPX/4XvCbSKPfd2WGV8fliAspO4IHWdKVKlK1BplMK2F5PPsdiMnc8KyLAPgnsci+v45KSz940w5fMiKYRSO2kYaupWhjGthk+TUh1DtSKfgOh+0GhRgUJ+9nTXOgk6E= Received: by 10.54.31.15 with SMTP id e15mr67511wre; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:21:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e0502100221363647fa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:21:47 -0800 From: Astrodog To: Thomas Leveille In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: artwork from hell X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:21:49 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:49:47 +0100, Thomas Leveille wrote: > Beastie forever :) > > http://calinourson.free.fr/pics/FreeBSD/powertoflame.png > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Maybe the efforts that are going into a new logo, would be better placed writing the "real" stuff that goes into FreeBSD for businesses? TCO numbers, any legal, SCO-type issues, etc. As it stands now, when I'm pitching FreeBSD to a customer of mine, they ask for all of that fun stuff, and I end up writing bits and pieces of it. What's needed is not a new logo, its a renewed effort in really explaining "Why should we use FreeBSD?", imo. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 10:33:31 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67EEE16A4CF for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:33:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1017943D31 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:33:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so92595wra for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:33:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cEoEzlDFUBBxW0GuT0tHRAfeeMcLPGNkpgQvQX7B7tFl5/4qgu1DfI9c04yDd2V9fCiFRviCg4GuSi1IRH/3bVP44fLWmajOmiJ+QAssZiCyWAu5lD1WfI+5mcQ5JVLG/0HvYlnhVAmS1QUgtqTxq5NE7hV3sc86Y3H3WLU7mlo= Received: by 10.54.38.33 with SMTP id l33mr54088wrl; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:33:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:33:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e05021002332e78445c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:33:27 -0800 From: Astrodog To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Business Information. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:33:31 -0000 Assuming its not being done already, I'd like to start putting together the "business" information regarding FreeBSD for either the FreeBSD.com, or somesuch website with the assistance, and (I hope) blessing, as it were, with people on the list. I determined that if I'm unwilling to do this myself, it is unreasonable to expect others to do the footwork. Please let me know if someone else already does this, and if not, who would be interested in contributing to such a project. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 10:52:19 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76FBB16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:52:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6EE343D1D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:52:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com) Received: (from tedm@localhost) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id j1AAqLt19861 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:52:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:52:21 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Mittelstaedt Message-Id: <200502101052.j1AAqLt19861@mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: A few words about the logo change X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:52:19 -0000 Hi All, I've read through the discussion on this issue and here is my $0.02 on this. In 2000 as many of you know I got a book published titled "The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide" This book (and website) were written with the primary purpose of assisting Windows users to migrate to FreeBSD. As Open Source books it was probably moderately successful as a book, small potatos for the publisher Addison Wesley, but I was pleased enough that anyone was buying it, of course. And once again, I do thank any of you who have the book, whether begged or bought, for reading it. During the time period that the publisher and I were working on this there came a time for the cover art to be determined. I thus had a decision to make. I could use the well recognized BSD logo, Beastie, or not. And, please spare me the revisionist history about how Beastie is not a logo but a mascot, it's been a UNIX logo for around 29 years and statements made during the last few days do not change that - see http://www.lemis.com/grog/whyadaemon.html Using the logo obviously meant that there would be some people who would not buy it - as this book was aimed at WINDOWS users, not experienced BSD users, there was a high probability that most of the target market purchasers would not, in fact, recognize the UNIX daemon image. I probably considered the possibility of not using beastie for about 2 seconds. Here I am writing a book that is trying to get Windows admins to change their "eeewwww, UNIX, I don't wanna touch it" attitudes - and I am going to give in to similar concerns about using a devil image for a corporate manual? What an obnoxious hipocrite that would make me. Incidentally I will point out that FreeBSD Unleashed FreeBSD: On Open-Source OS for your PC Teach Yourself FreeBSD in 24 hours FreeBSD the Complete Reference Embedded FreeBSD Cookbook all DO NOT HAVE even a hint of an image of Beastie on their covers - so don't believe that this isn't a concern for others. So, I personally have been willing to take a personal hit to my own pocketbook on this issue - which is a damn site more than most of the whiners on the forum I think. This discussion clearly is one that should never have happened. I, more than most of the whiners I think - clearly understand the issues. I will also point out that an even more serious issue exists with having the word "Free" in the name of the operating system - as there's a strong belief in many corporate types mind that anything that is free is worthless. Consider that a corporation is a money-making operation, they do not give away their products, they feel that what they manufacture or produce has value and therefore must be paid for. If someone else is just giving away a product, it must be because it's such a bad product that they cannot get anyone to pay for it. So, once Beastie is safely hidden away in the back pages of the FreeBSD website, then what is next in the campaign to make our image more palatable to the corporate types - why not change the name? Hell, we might even be able to get Jolitz to sign over his rights to 386BSD and go back to our non-controversial roots. What a good thing that would be, huh? But wait - it's got BSD in there, and we don't want our stuff associated with those marajuana-growing radicals in the University of Berkeley, so let's drop the BSD part and just call it 386. Since the court ruled numbers are not trademarkable, that's safe. Except that 386 is associated with that old CPU of Intel's, so let's drop the 38 and just call it 6. But, horrors, if we then have 3 computers running it, we have 666 and oh God help us, we are right back to the Lord of Darkness again!!! The members of the FreeBSD core that support this idea are heading in the direction of making some politically correct image the flagship logo of FreeBSD, (or of 666 or whatever the sanitized name of the OS will eventually be) and telling the rest of us "well you can use the devil logo if you want to, we aren't stopping you from doing it. Here's a bone we will throw you, we will call Beastie a "mascot" that should make you happy. I submit that they have it on their heads. Rather than us changing, why don't the people with the problem simply stop using beastie in their OWN marketing materials to their hyper-sensitive customers, and find some sanitized image they can be happy with. Maybe even a picture of John Ashcroft's head - I hear he's available these days, maybe he will pose for you. When Hormel stops using the word "spam" for their canned ham, then you can go argue that we ought to put beastie out to the back 40. But it is high time that the people whining about this issue understand that you cannot please all of the people all of the time. The fairy tail university that doesen't want to use FreeBSD because they are afraid of getting sued by the image, won't be happy until beastie is purged from -every scrap- of anything in FreeBSD. And if you really honestly think that they solely made the decision based on that, you are very naieve. I've been in these kinds of decisions and if something like this ever did happen, the real truth is most likely that the devil logo was used a convenient excuse not to use FreeBSD. It's like your date who tells you she doesen't want to go out with you again because she still has feelings for her old boyfriend - it's a cowardly way of telling you they don't like you, and they want to hide the real reason for it from you, because it's most likely a bullshit reason they are embarassed about. IN closing I will end with this final warning. This issue is really the tip of the blade that comes in to carve your guts out. Clearly, the users in the userbase that care about this one way or another are mostly against it, if the list postings are any guage. What they want is if a logo is required, it needs to be visibly related to Beastie. If FreeBSD ends up with a sanitized logo, then it means that the core team wants to head down the same corporate path as Linux, and what we know of FreeBSD now isn't going to exist at that time. I do hope that whatever we get in return will be half as good as what we have now, and that at that time we aren't going to be saying "shit fuck, we really screwed this one up" FreeBSD already has suffered from 1 setback against Linux at a critical time, due to that USL lawsuit. It can't really afford another. Ted Mittelstaedt Author, The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 11:34:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4215E16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:34:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (cpc4-cdif3-6-1-cust116.cdif.cable.ntl.com [82.23.41.116]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB3CB43D4C for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:34:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.44 (FreeBSD)) id 1CzCaG-000Lqr-KE; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:34:08 +0000 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:34:08 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Sergey Zaharchenko Message-ID: <20050210113408.GF18759@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Sergey Zaharchenko , advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20050210063958.GA6242@shark.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="kG2acDqmwoBDcCHP" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050210063958.GA6242@shark.localdomain> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Beastie and the Bible X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:34:10 -0000 --kG2acDqmwoBDcCHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 09:39:58AM +0300, Sergey Zaharchenko wrote: > Revelations of John 12:9 >=20 > > The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the > > devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to > > the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. >=20 > The `canonical' devil is indeed the snake. He/it isn't described as > being either red or horned. The current logo doesn't seem to be > offensive according to the Bible (which means if you find it offensive, > it's more like a prejudice of yours). Could that be an argument to keep > the it as it is? Of course this has to be proved for other religions. > I'm tired of the questions@ holy wars already... >=20 > Please CC me, as I'm not on this list. Then you'll be excused for not knowing that theology and iconology are off-topic here. Ceri --=20 Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Einstein (attrib.) --kG2acDqmwoBDcCHP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCC0awocfcwTS3JF8RAm0tAKCL3RTDPAo0fxl4gBx5MBx9lZ+C5wCfYDh2 2arjavIIe/jaW7DV3nuxJos= =AAib -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --kG2acDqmwoBDcCHP-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 11:35:48 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C93C216A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:35:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (cpc4-cdif3-6-1-cust116.cdif.cable.ntl.com [82.23.41.116]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4755443D49 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:35:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.44 (FreeBSD)) id 1CzCbr-000A6C-3E; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:35:47 +0000 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:35:47 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Astrodog Message-ID: <20050210113547.GG18759@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Astrodog , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <2fd864e05021002332e78445c@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="z118w8IfbP8nVdqq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2fd864e05021002332e78445c@mail.gmail.com> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Business Information. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:35:48 -0000 --z118w8IfbP8nVdqq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 02:33:27AM -0800, Astrodog wrote: > Assuming its not being done already, I'd like to start putting > together the "business" information regarding FreeBSD for either the > FreeBSD.com, or somesuch website with the assistance, and (I hope) > blessing, as it were, with people on the list. I determined that if > I'm unwilling to do this myself, it is unreasonable to expect others > to do the footwork. Please let me know if someone else already does > this, and if not, who would be interested in contributing to such a > project. I will find a place for it on the current website at least. Ceri --=20 Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Einstein (attrib.) --z118w8IfbP8nVdqq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCC0cSocfcwTS3JF8RAielAKDAt2vxkMcjeI/X9FRt1DPx+yYbQACgyb27 LP3lwpSHIwLv+S4n7Kez2iY= =EGPF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --z118w8IfbP8nVdqq-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 11:35:57 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C587716A4CF for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:35:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B8843D2D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:35:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4F8FC1C00048; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:35:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 25E4B1C000BB; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:35:56 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050210113556155.25E4B1C000BB@mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:35:55 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <755183233.20050210123555@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, astrodog@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <2fd864e05021002332e78445c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2fd864e05021002332e78445c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Business Information. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:35:57 -0000 Astrodog writes: > Assuming its not being done already, I'd like to start putting > together the "business" information regarding FreeBSD for either the > FreeBSD.com, or somesuch website with the assistance, and (I hope) > blessing, as it were, with people on the list. I determined that if > I'm unwilling to do this myself, it is unreasonable to expect others > to do the footwork. Please let me know if someone else already does > this, and if not, who would be interested in contributing to such a > project. I can contribute DTP work. I have a full suite of professional electronic publishing tools and can prepare things like books, brochures, leaflets, etc., that might be useful for promotional use. Not being a marketroid, I'm not necessarily qualified to write the content (although I can certainly help with that if needed), but I can massage it all into page layouts that can be converted to PDFs and professionally printed. (I can't cover the physical printing myself, though, as actually printing the documents costs more than I can afford). If you're going to pitch FreeBSD to corporations and other serious organizations, you need some sort of promotional literature. Preparing PDFs for printing or display is delicate work; and Microsoft Word or StarOffice are not the tools for doing it, sorry. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 11:41:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 513B816A4CE; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:41:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5C243D54; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:41:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) j1ABffj20078; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:41:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Stephan Lichtenauer" , Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:41:40 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <163A0D80-7B48-11D9-B2EC-000A95D5F764@mnet-online.de> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:41:43 -0000 owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org wrote: > Am 10.02.2005 um 10:20 schrieb Anthony Atkielski: > >> Joshua Tinnin writes: >> >> I don't think that a logo makes or breaks deals, but from a public >> relations and marketing standpoint a good logo is extremely useful, >> and the lack of a logo (or a very busy logo that's hard to use and >> recognize) can be a liability. >> >> > I agree. I even would bring back the issue of a separate freebsd.com > website presenting the business case of FreeBSD while freebsd.org is > perfect as it is now for people looking for technical > information about > how to use the system. > That is what sendmail did and I think it works very well. Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 11:55:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C01616A4CF for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:55:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48F243D45 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:55:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so100189wra for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:55:06 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=cwUaTgmmM81tysDe2P07ctBgFN+475hlDWMf4iC3RKkcAPJenD2C0lvNMAdRSFArDWPfp8MtcxvaTwx1d7WnjxqmuXTShjnCOsQ/7WWAr2ibW9rN90aAPexeG2EQUJ33xccjH86xgjHgkIWPMLapop9d4oNKLlu91VCDz79Y0Tw= Received: by 10.54.7.68 with SMTP id 68mr42082wrg; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:55:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:55:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e05021003556a6a1c1b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:55:06 -0800 From: Astrodog To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr In-Reply-To: <755183233.20050210123555@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2fd864e05021002332e78445c@mail.gmail.com> <755183233.20050210123555@wanadoo.fr> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Business Information. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:55:10 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:35:55 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Astrodog writes: > > > Assuming its not being done already, I'd like to start putting > > together the "business" information regarding FreeBSD for either the > > FreeBSD.com, or somesuch website with the assistance, and (I hope) > > blessing, as it were, with people on the list. I determined that if > > I'm unwilling to do this myself, it is unreasonable to expect others > > to do the footwork. Please let me know if someone else already does > > this, and if not, who would be interested in contributing to such a > > project. > > I can contribute DTP work. I have a full suite of professional > electronic publishing tools and can prepare things like books, > brochures, leaflets, etc., that might be useful for promotional use. Not > being a marketroid, I'm not necessarily qualified to write the content > (although I can certainly help with that if needed), but I can massage > it all into page layouts that can be converted to PDFs and > professionally printed. (I can't cover the physical printing myself, > though, as actually printing the documents costs more than I can > afford). > > If you're going to pitch FreeBSD to corporations and other serious > organizations, you need some sort of promotional literature. Preparing > PDFs for printing or display is delicate work; and Microsoft Word or > StarOffice are not the tools for doing it, sorry. > > -- > Anthony > > I'm definitly(sp) with you on the tools for creating PDFs and printed materials. Making a StarOffice/Word document look right for publication is a pain. Thanks for the rapid response, interest, and volunteering. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 11:57:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E3716A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:57:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A06A943D5D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:57:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so100404wra for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:57:24 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=ZY7izX9PkenU+GCVtVZ1ILgZM1qvPcQn6P3x6qn4mRYXVQUdgEriQPg/4PwyBdOt7/uIkGdUGkvv+JV4RVDNilIPZZ9n+6EPhlDbn296TkgI9H665XD1mG6l6VPSp6QYSATkG5oVOmsNHIP6k75yWw17rxIB4iurHf16VgmCkwI= Received: by 10.54.31.8 with SMTP id e8mr20690wre; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:57:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:57:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e0502100357fb5630f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:57:24 -0800 From: Astrodog To: Ceri Davies , Astrodog , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050210113547.GG18759@submonkey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2fd864e05021002332e78445c@mail.gmail.com> <20050210113547.GG18759@submonkey.net> Subject: Re: Business Information. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:57:25 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:35:47 +0000, Ceri Davies wrote: > On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 02:33:27AM -0800, Astrodog wrote: > > Assuming its not being done already, I'd like to start putting > > together the "business" information regarding FreeBSD for either the > > FreeBSD.com, or somesuch website with the assistance, and (I hope) > > blessing, as it were, with people on the list. I determined that if > > I'm unwilling to do this myself, it is unreasonable to expect others > > to do the footwork. Please let me know if someone else already does > > this, and if not, who would be interested in contributing to such a > > project. > > I will find a place for it on the current website at least. Great. Couldn't ask for more. If whyfreebsd.com isn't taken I might grab it for a redirect, I'm gonna let this post sit for a day or so, just to make sure I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, I think the Mascot/Logo thing is enough controversy for the moment. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 12:28:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1DAD16A4ED for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:28:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3933143D2D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:28:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 4663 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 12:27:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by sarajevo with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 12:27:59 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050210122758.VEZN1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:27:58 +0800 Message-ID: <420B53CA.4050009@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:30:02 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: <200502101052.j1AAqLt19861@mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com> In-Reply-To: <200502101052.j1AAqLt19861@mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A few words about the logo change X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:28:04 -0000 Hi, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > In 2000 as many of you know I got a book published titled > "The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide" This book (and website) This book is in the next room. > Using the logo obviously meant that there would be some people > FreeBSD Unleashed I also have that book, but I did not realise until now that one has a logo and the other one doesn't. I can only speak for me here, when I chose things for work I do not go by all this eye catching things. > exists with having the word "Free" in the name of the operating This is a real problem. I just talk about BSD when I talk about FreeBSD after realising the problem. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 12:50:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2628A16A50B for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:50:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mailtest.sd73.bc.ca (smtp.sd73.bc.ca [142.24.13.149]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 989F543D53 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:50:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailtest.sd73.bc.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B75F1D2E; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:50:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailtest.sd73.bc.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailtest.sd73.bc.ca [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 25877-03-56; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:50:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailtest.sd73.bc.ca (Postfix, from userid 80) id 74B23F1BDF; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:50:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 24.71.128.63 (SquirrelMail authenticated user fcash); by mailtest.sd73.bc.ca with HTTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:50:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <62544.24.71.128.63.1108039817.squirrel@24.71.128.63> In-Reply-To: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:50:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Freddie Cash" To: "Matt Olander" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new using ClamAV at sd73.bc.ca cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 5.3 MySQL Performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:50:18 -0000 > We've got a customer that is considering a network expansion while > moving from Linux to FreeBSD. > They are big users of MySQL and have been running it on Linux. > Most of the information that I've found is a bit old, but I guess my > question is if LinuxThreads should still be used or if MySQL works > well under FreeBSD using native threads. > The customer has looked at Jeremy's blog article on this issue, but > this is pretty old: > http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/000697.html > Also, does anybody have any FreeBSD 5.3/MySQL benchmarks? I searched > the mailing lists but didn't turn up anything. Check the archives for the -current mailing list for November or December. Scott Long posted some tests he did with MySQL on FreeBSD 5.3 with LinuxThreads, libthr, libpthread (libkse), and libc_r. Quite interesting read. There's also been some posts to NewsForge comparing MySQL performance on FreeBSD 4.11 and 5.3, with Gentoo Linux (2.4 and 2.6 kernels), OpenBSD 3.6, and NetBSD 2.0. It's a two part series that covers what he tested, how he tested, and the test results. And there have been some other posts to either -current or -stable in the past couple weeks with other MySQL comparisons. -- Freddie Cash, CCNT CCLP Helpdesk / Network Support Tech. School District 73 (250) 377-HELP [377-4357] fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 12:51:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4F7F16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:51:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 642B543D1D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:51:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1CA981C000A9 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:51:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 04A7A1C000A8 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:51:08 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050210125109192.04A7A1C000A8@mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:51:07 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <266942554.20050210135107@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050210113408.GF18759@submonkey.net> References: <20050210063958.GA6242@shark.localdomain> <20050210113408.GF18759@submonkey.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Beastie and the Bible X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:51:10 -0000 Ceri Davies writes: > Then you'll be excused for not knowing that theology and iconology are > off-topic here. Isn't Beastie an icon? -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 13:22:15 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A096D16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:22:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 58E3943D39 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:22:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 14171 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 13:22:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by sarajevo with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 13:22:12 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050210132212.RAVH1207.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:22:12 +0800 Message-ID: <420B6081.30206@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:24:17 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <200502092210.39490.algould@datawok.com> <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> <1054192109.20050210101652@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <1054192109.20050210101652@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:22:15 -0000 Hi, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Erich Dollansky writes: > > >>Do above attributes apply to the logo of the most successful software >>package known as Windows? > > > Yes. The Windows logo is simple and easy to recognize. The full logo > is in multiple colors and requires screens to print, which is a bit of a > drawback, but fortunately it is designed such that it can be printed > with fewer colors, no screens, and in monochrome if necessary. It > provides a very high level of brand recognition; even in straight black > and white, people instantly recognize what the logo represents. > And FreeBSD's beastie can even be 'printed' on an ASCII-Terminal still being recognised. > >>FreeBSD already has this image. > > > FreeBSD doesn't have a _logo_. > FreeBSD uses currently the multirole beastie. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 13:24:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C48016A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:24:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4CD2743D48 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:24:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 23439 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 13:24:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 13:24:01 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050210132400.RAXA1207.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:24:00 +0800 Message-ID: <420B60EC.9000009@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:26:04 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:24:03 -0000 Hi, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Erich Dollansky writes: > > >>Do you believe that Windows is this successful because of its logo? > > > No, but the logo accounts for a lot of brand recognition for Windows, as > it does for most other products. Simple logos are easy to retain and Yes, after Windows become popular, the logo helps in some way. FreeBSD is far from being as popular as Windows. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 13:33:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F117516A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:33:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ptb-relay02.plus.net (ptb-relay02.plus.net [212.159.14.213]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC09B43D4C for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:33:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marko@freebsd.org) Received: from movens.plus.com ([80.229.231.20] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by ptb-relay02.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1CzESA-000FUD-BD for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:33:54 +0000 Message-ID: <420B6262.9070305@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:32:18 +0000 From: Mark Ovens User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 7.0 (Windows/20050209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <200502092210.39490.algould@datawok.com> <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> <200502092248.15008.algould@datawok.com> In-Reply-To: <200502092248.15008.algould@datawok.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-0, 08/02/2005), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:33:57 -0000 Andrew L. Gould wrote: > People fear the unknown. Add to the unknown, add a group of people that > have been negatively stereotyped by Hollywood and the news media, and a > logo that may represent something less than wholesome. I live in East > Texas and work for a hospital in West Texas. In both ends of this > great state, which I love dearly, I am hesitant to wear my Beastie > t-shirts. Ah, yes, Beastie in Texas http://tinyurl.com/3wovj as quoted by Greg in TCFBSD. Mark --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0506-0, 08/02/2005 Tested on: 10/02/2005 13:32:19 avast! - copyright (c) 2000-2004 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 13:58:39 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B29216A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:58:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD1A343D2F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:58:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0906.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 9F4D61C00219 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:58:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0906.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 85F7F1C00217 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:58:37 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050210135837548.85F7F1C00217@mwinf0906.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:58:37 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1935304074.20050210145837@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420B6081.30206@pacific.net.sg> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <200502092210.39490.algould@datawok.com> <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> <1054192109.20050210101652@wanadoo.fr> <420B6081.30206@pacific.net.sg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:58:39 -0000 Erich Dollansky writes: > And FreeBSD's beastie can even be 'printed' on an ASCII-Terminal still > being recognised. Only forms of the image that are already intended for printing on an ASCII terminal. In the world of commercial printing, things get more complicated. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 13:59:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A80D16A4CF for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:59:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38FB343D48 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:59:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0907.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 6753D1C00164 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:59:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0907.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id EE7FD1C00153 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:59:24 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050210135924977.EE7FD1C00153@mwinf0907.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:59:24 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <6803770.20050210145924@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420B60EC.9000009@pacific.net.sg> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> <420B60EC.9000009@pacific.net.sg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:59:26 -0000 Erich Dollansky writes: > FreeBSD is far from being as popular as Windows. If steps are taken in that direction, it helps to have a easily-recognized logo to assist in gaining mindshare. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 14:03:19 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1863516A4CF; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:03:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq3.home.nl (smtpq3.home.nl [213.51.128.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6984043D5C; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:03:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.136] (port=39041 helo=smtp5.home.nl) by smtpq3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CzEub-0005gh-GE; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:03:17 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:33889 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp5.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CzEuZ-0004VJ-NB; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:03:15 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: Erich Dollansky In-Reply-To: <420B6081.30206@pacific.net.sg> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <200502092210.39490.algould@datawok.com> <1054192109.20050210101652@wanadoo.fr> <420B6081.30206@pacific.net.sg> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: SiteTronics Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:03:15 +0100 Message-Id: <1108044195.5517.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:03:19 -0000 [In reply to the huge number of misguided messages that have been rolling into my Inbox through last night and all of today.] I don't understand why you people are still battling on the subject. Some less-than-smart person has also started up an online petition which has gotten tons of people who DO NOT understand the situation to sign said petition. First: this is about PRINTING. What happens when you print any of the currently available FreeBSD logos? I'll tell you. Before going into this, I think I should explain a couple things about the press and about computer art. I'm sure some of you know this, but it is very apparent that some of you couldn't identify a raster image from a hole in the ground. When printing _any_ sort of art, there are certain things that need to be kept in mind. I'm keeping this simple. Do not get pedantic on me about this. First, I'd like to explain how things get printed on large media (large posters, signs, etc). Even some T-Shirt companies print their shirts this way. When printing on such media, you work with silk screens, conveniently named ``silkscreens.'' When printing, these screens are used to layer colors. Only one color can be printed at a time. When you print a Beastie that has 5 colors (using the EPS version as an example -- 5 colors because you don't have to print white), each color has to be pressed through the screen in a separate process. You can re-use screens across media. Thus, if you want to print 1,000 posters with the EPS of Beastie, you need to have 5 screens, and some poor worker (believe me, this is still hand-done in most places) has to print various parts of Beastie 5,000 times. What's the difference between raster and vector art? Raster art is what you usually see on the web. Files in GIF, JPEG, PNG, TIFF, BMP and other similar formats are all raster graphics. This basically means that the image is defined based on color values at certain pixels. Various formats have various ways to compress this, but that's basically how they all work. Vector art makes use of (unsurprisingly) vectors to determine how the image should be shown. The image is stored as mathematical data which describes where and how bezier curves should be formed, where lines are. Color can be added simply by giving these vectors a color property. If a shape is closed, you can even give it a fill. Indeed, you can even fill non-closed shapes by inferring their area based upon various different algorithms. The difference between raster and vector art is that rasterized images are generally only good for viewing on-screen. Unless your rasterized image is at a high quality with a high DPI, you can't do very much resizing without losing substantial quality (usually you can make them smaller and maintain a good quality, but making them larger usually removes quality directly). This is why you can't really enlarge digital photos and why when taking good pictures with a digital camera requires a camera with a high resolution. On the other hand, vector art can be resized to any size and maintain its original quality. So, when you get down to it, you really need to realize the problems: o The number of colors. The more colors an image has, the more it costs to print, for obvious reasons. The current FreeBSD logo not only makes use of a rasterized version of Beastie that is difficult to print at a high resolution, the text is beveled. There are tons of colors that would have to be removed or changed to print this on large media. Additionally, the raster would have to be traced, since I know of no raster version of Beastie that's larger than about 1200px wide. Printing the current logo is too expensive. o The ability to be resized. Even if this was traced by a program such as Inkscape (which makes use of some other tracing program, so I'm giving credit to the wrong place, sorry), there would be a substantial amount of quality lost. I know, because tracing even a small image (320x240) with a high number of scans (say 50) eats up about 500 MB RAM and comes close to hanging my dual P3 800. It might be doable at a reasonable speed on a AMD64 machine with 2 gigs of RAM; I wouldnt' be surprised if it wasn't. Converting the logo to something printable is too much of a PITA. o If we use the current vector version (the EPS version available in /usr/share/examples/BSD_daemon), we're losing a lot. It's not very detailed, it's not very pretty, and it still uses 5 colors, which is pretty expensive to print. o If we use either, you have to understand that either version is a bitch to print at a small size (for letterhead). The EPS is not well detailed, and the raster version still uses a lot of red ink :). The raster isn't very clear when printed in black and white, and the EPS still isn't pretty. This isn't about removing Beastie from FreeBSD. This is about a professional logo that can be easily printed on a wide variety of media including your computer screen, the head of your legal pads / A4s, a t- shirt, or a light tube for the side of a building. The fact that the accepted logo should be designed to not depict subjects which might be construed as harassing to another's beliefs, etc. is a perk. Not a pitfall. I plan to contribute. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 15:38:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D7816A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:38:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.116]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64D2543D2D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:38:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from warren@wandrsmith.net) Received: from CPE-65-28-44-243.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-28-44-243.kc.rr.com [65.28.44.243])j1AFRnCi010821 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:27:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from www.wandrsmith.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by CPE-65-28-44-243.kc.rr.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A37135DDD for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:38:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from 204.167.177.68 (SquirrelMail authenticated user warren) by www.wandrsmith.net with HTTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:38:47 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <33833.204.167.177.68.1108049927.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> In-Reply-To: <200502091631.08593.algould@datawok.com> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com><20050209214206.GA21616@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200502091631.08593.algould@datawok.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:38:47 -0600 (CST) From: "Warren Smith" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: warren@wandrsmith.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:38:53 -0000 Andrew L. Gould said: > Do you object to FreeBSD having a logo that portrays the fact that it's > a professional grade operating system? Beastie is staying; but Beastie > only portrays one side of FreeBSD. The professional side of FreeBSD > deserves attention and expression. > I agree 100%. The project needs to recognize the importance of portraying itself not only as group of people with a passion for BSD style development, but also as a group of professionals that recognize the realities of business, including the importance of "image" and perception. If we want FreeBSD to be seriously considered for those tasks that we know it excels at by those we wish would use it, then we must at least consider the image of the project from their perspective. > I don't see a new logo as bowing to Political Correctness as much as > improving communication. Images project messages; and frequently > Beastie (inadvertently) sends the wrong message. Once I explain the > history behind Beastie, everyone whom I've talked to has been okay with > it. The problem is that I often have to resolve the Beastie issue > before the listener is ready to hear about computer security, > reliability, etc. > I have experienced this exact situation, with the exact same results. My fear is that, without a knowlegeable person handy to explain Beastie, some potential users of FreeBSD may have passed over it for something that, while technically inferior, gave a better first impression to the "unenlightened". > Also, please keep in mind, it's not always about whether we get new > users. FreeBSD's image may affect whether a business chooses to > associate itself with FreeBSD by creating FreeBSD drivers for its > products or supporting FreeBSD development. Business is people; and > people are not perfectly rational. PR issues influence business > decisions now more than ever. > Again, Andrew has captured my feelings exactly. I had initially elected to stay out of this thread because it appeared that I was in the minority and I did not want to inflame the situation even more. Though I still may be in a minority, at least I know I have a "kindred spirit" out there. Thanks Andrew. -- Warren Smith warren@wandrsmith.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 16:27:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596D716A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:27:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.tyndale.com (mail1.tyndale.com [68.74.233.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A423343D48 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:27:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from harrison@tbc.net) Received: from mailnode1.tyndale.com (unverified) by mail1.tyndale.com for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:27:54 -0600 Received: from [10.192.104.91] ([10.192.104.91]) by mailnode1.tyndale.com; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:27:28 -0600 Message-ID: <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:29:48 -0600 From: Shawn Harrison User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:27:47 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote [02/10/05 3:12 AM]: > Even Disney uses logos that > are simplified versions of its most famous characters (stylized ears > instead of a complete Mickey Mouse, for example). > Someone with artistic skill needs to make some stylized horns. -- ________________ harrison@tbc.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 16:42:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A66416A502; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:42:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (cpc4-cdif3-6-1-cust116.cdif.cable.ntl.com [82.23.41.116]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E37E43D1F; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:42:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.44 (FreeBSD)) id 1CzHOa-000ANz-0V; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:42:24 +0000 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:42:23 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Matt Olander Message-ID: <20050210164223.GK18759@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Matt Olander , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2MC+DK0smzICZJ/6" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 5.3 MySQL Performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:42:27 -0000 --2MC+DK0smzICZJ/6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 04:22:02PM -0800, Matt Olander wrote: > hey gang, >=20 > We've got a customer that is considering a network expansion while moving > from Linux to FreeBSD. >=20 > They are big users of MySQL and have been running it on Linux. >=20 > Most of the information that I've found is a bit old, but I guess my > question is if LinuxThreads should still be used or if MySQL works well > under FreeBSD using native threads. >=20 > The customer has looked at Jeremy's blog article on this issue, but this = is > pretty old: > http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/000697.html >=20 > Also, does anybody have any FreeBSD 5.3/MySQL benchmarks? I searched the > mailing lists but didn't turn up anything. Hot off the press: http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=3D04/12/27/1243207&from=3Drss Ceri --=20 Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Einstein (attrib.) --2MC+DK0smzICZJ/6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCC47vocfcwTS3JF8RAlD0AJ4lAN0TQ79aVx0RXClnkaGarUwm2QCfbnIg Lv7hh+9d+wvwdZ+1WXZmT7U= =oYZ9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2MC+DK0smzICZJ/6-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 17:45:17 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3842516A4CF for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:45:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.byd.ca (ns1.byd.ca [65.39.131.104]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8802543D49 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:45:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@activeeffects.com) Received: (qmail 57281 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 17:44:45 -0000 Received: from cpe0000cd061f26-cm400026180624.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com (HELO ?192.168.11.2?) (24.103.21.15) by 0 with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 17:44:45 -0000 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:41:56 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Wood X-X-Sender: dave@one.thequestion.net To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> Message-ID: <20050210114338.B30327@one.thequestion.net> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:45:17 -0000 > Someone with artistic skill needs to make some stylized horns. That's a good idea. There are lots of ways to keep the spirit that exists while improving the image in the corporate world. Let me raise my hand in support of a new logo, while keeping Beastie as a mascot. I believe that the more people that use FreeBSD, the better it will become. More users = more support from hardware manufactures = easier installations = more users. And the first step is to present an image that corporations have no problem being connected with. I know that I always have a problem convincing PHB's to take the plunge and risk using FreeBSD over a Redmond OS. Everytime I say that FreeBSD will be better and cheaper, they roll their eyes. While Beastie doesn't hurt in this case, it doesn't help. If a new logo is created, that is then used more often (ie hardware makers putting it in the list of supported OS's), then it becomes easier to sell the OS to the PHB's who listen to hype over performance. It's a known fact that people judge books by the cover, despite the fact that everyone knows it's really what's inside that counts. Once the contest is offically launched, how do people feel about inviting a bunch of professional logo design companies to participate. The $500 prize won't convince them to partake, but the vast exposure almost certainly will. -- Dave Wood From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 17:46:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA95D16A4CF for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:46:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2376343D1F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:46:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so158544wra for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:46:00 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=WI9rLdO99AenJWGtNWsy8EWMaZUqEGmvgYM8a+edkQvP17LAjMzYD3pfv/GgO7dzvZcjwBEwDHXrpkZ6zFHr4SafsDJXXM3W8FogzK6sJaLX3DY0fsMZj1DbrVDjqsvRU/A8SqmfEuSpjPAUiSzlibbWp5MS54XKIHQlszlw4zA= Received: by 10.54.16.30 with SMTP id 30mr81221wrp; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:46:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e050210094636e2a16c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:46:00 -0800 From: Astrodog To: Shawn Harrison In-Reply-To: <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:46:05 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:29:48 -0600, Shawn Harrison wrote: > Anthony Atkielski wrote [02/10/05 3:12 AM]: > > Even Disney uses logos that > > are simplified versions of its most famous characters (stylized ears > > instead of a complete Mickey Mouse, for example). > > > > Someone with artistic skill needs to make some stylized horns. > > -- > ________________ > harrison@tbc.net > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > I suppose my point would be that the effort that will go into the logo, and even into this whole discussion, might be better placed, atleast from those interested in doing it. Check the other thread on this list, re: Business Information if that's something you wanna do, I suppose. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 17:53:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF0316A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:53:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6EC643D41 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:53:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1AHrLsV039842; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:53:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <420B9FE8.1040308@401.cx> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:54:48 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Wood References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> <20050210114338.B30327@one.thequestion.net> In-Reply-To: <20050210114338.B30327@one.thequestion.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-0, 2005-02-08), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:53:27 -0000 Dave Wood wrote: [snip] > Once the contest is offically launched, how do people feel about > inviting a bunch of professional logo design companies to participate. > The $500 prize won't convince them to partake, but the vast exposure > almost certainly will. As long as the resulting logo is not copyrighted in any way by them. BSD has always been known for its liberal license, I would hate to end up with a logo cluttered with a bunch of copyright junk. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 17:58:11 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D0D16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:58:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.byd.ca (ns1.byd.ca [65.39.131.104]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8142443D4C for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:58:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@activeeffects.com) Received: (qmail 57913 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 17:57:39 -0000 Received: from cpe0000cd061f26-cm400026180624.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com (HELO ?192.168.11.2?) (24.103.21.15) by 0 with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 17:57:39 -0000 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:54:49 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Wood X-X-Sender: dave@one.thequestion.net To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg In-Reply-To: <420B9FE8.1040308@401.cx> Message-ID: <20050210125103.D30735@one.thequestion.net> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> <20050210114338.B30327@one.thequestion.net> <420B9FE8.1040308@401.cx> X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:58:11 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > As long as the resulting logo is not copyrighted in any way by them. > BSD has always been known for its liberal license, I would hate to end up > with a logo cluttered with a bunch of copyright junk. That (is/was) covered in the rules. It stated something to the effect that the copyright must be transferred to the FreeBSD Foundation. The Foundation would have to control/license users of it of course to maintain their rights to it. -- Dave Wood From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 18:00:12 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE1616A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:00:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D864043D1F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:00:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rpratt1950@earthlink.net) Received: from [204.215.32.27] (helo=kt.weeble.com) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CzIbq-0008Vu-3X; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:00:11 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-Id:In-Reply-To:References:X-Mailer:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=K+n3cs4ntoRn77bkfy5VSXRMiNt2l0oTYGnZbR6HlZt+LOyLjxUGqo1Yz1uuofIu; Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:00:03 -0500 From: Randy Pratt To: warren@wandrsmith.net Message-Id: <20050210130003.5a317bf2.rpratt1950@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <33833.204.167.177.68.1108049927.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <20050209214206.GA21616@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200502091631.08593.algould@datawok.com> <33833.204.167.177.68.1108049927.squirrel@www.wandrsmith.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.11) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 96132b9c1759af1df21c5f5255d6c174239a348a220c2609e4298c0a3850654290ed6cbc8d2bc48d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 204.215.32.27 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:00:12 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:38:47 -0600 (CST) "Warren Smith" wrote: > Andrew L. Gould said: > > Do you object to FreeBSD having a logo that portrays the fact that it's > > a professional grade operating system? Beastie is staying; but Beastie > > only portrays one side of FreeBSD. The professional side of FreeBSD > > deserves attention and expression. > > > I agree 100%. The project needs to recognize the importance of portraying > itself not only as group of people with a passion for BSD style > development, but also as a group of professionals that recognize the > realities of business, including the importance of "image" and perception. > If we want FreeBSD to be seriously considered for those tasks that we > know it excels at by those we wish would use it, then we must at least > consider the image of the project from their perspective. > > > I don't see a new logo as bowing to Political Correctness as much as > > improving communication. Images project messages; and frequently > > Beastie (inadvertently) sends the wrong message. Once I explain the > > history behind Beastie, everyone whom I've talked to has been okay with > > it. The problem is that I often have to resolve the Beastie issue > > before the listener is ready to hear about computer security, > > reliability, etc. > > > I have experienced this exact situation, with the exact same results. My > fear is that, without a knowlegeable person handy to explain Beastie, some > potential users of FreeBSD may have passed over it for something that, > while technically inferior, gave a better first impression to the > "unenlightened". > > > Also, please keep in mind, it's not always about whether we get new > > users. FreeBSD's image may affect whether a business chooses to > > associate itself with FreeBSD by creating FreeBSD drivers for its > > products or supporting FreeBSD development. Business is people; and > > people are not perfectly rational. PR issues influence business > > decisions now more than ever. > > > Again, Andrew has captured my feelings exactly. I had initially elected > to stay out of this thread because it appeared that I was in the minority > and I did not want to inflame the situation even more. Though I still may > be in a minority, at least I know I have a "kindred spirit" out there. I also agree with having a new logo suitable for general use. I'm not offended in any way by the present mascot, but the FreeBSD project is growing older and its time to move on. The mascot has nothing to do with the quality of the operating system. If we truly want to advocate FreeBSD, I would think that we would want to spend our time explaining why FreeBSD is a viable choice and not educating people on "Why a Daemon?". There's a lot to be gained by focusing on what it takes to make inroads into corporate acceptance. I've better things to do than argue over a mascot. Randy -- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 18:09:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC46416A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:09:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 327B643D31 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:09:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1CzIkn-00045p-D2; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:09:25 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:09:57 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> <20050210114338.B30327@one.thequestion.net> In-Reply-To: <20050210114338.B30327@one.thequestion.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502101209.57299.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc7ebc5325b365274a47b70556fceb4f04350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:09:27 -0000 On Thursday 10 February 2005 11:41 am, Dave Wood wrote: > Once the contest is offically launched, how do people feel about > inviting a bunch of professional logo design companies to > participate. The $500 prize won't convince them to partake, but the > vast exposure almost certainly will. __Anyone__ who can make a logo so good that it resolves this issue deserves a place in FreeBSD history. Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 18:25:51 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43FC216A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:25:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web53601.mail.yahoo.com (web53601.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A97943D1F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:25:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scott@sremick.net) Received: (qmail 15607 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Feb 2005 18:25:49 -0000 Message-ID: <20050210182549.15605.qmail@web53601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.213.7.6] by web53601.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:25:49 PST X-RocketYMMF: siremick Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:25:49 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott I. Remick" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200502101209.57299.algould@datawok.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: scott@sremick.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:25:51 -0000 --- "Andrew L. Gould" wrote: > __Anyone__ who can make a logo so good that it resolves this issue > deserves a place in FreeBSD history. Heh... it won't get resolved. There'll be a contest, there'll be a winner, there'll be a logo. But it won't get resolved. My prediction: there'll be 5 candidates. The winner will get 25% of the vote. The other 4 won't get more than that so the one with only 25% of the vote will become the winner, making only 25% of those who VOTED happy. Meanwhile, a large vocal group of non-voters will also be unhappy because they didn't like the logo, or the principle of the idea. I would love to be wrong though. :) I'm as attached to "Beastie" as the next guy, and it's hard for me to think of any "logo" or icon for FreeBSD other than him. However, I fully understand, appreciate, and agree with all the justifications for the need for a second "logo" in addition to "mascot". They're all true. Basically, we cannot both simultaneously be trying to win over businesses while at the same time ignoring the things that are important to businesses (such as image and marketability). There are reasons "Beastie" doesn't fit this, some technical, some not so. I've doodled a bit with stylized horns, pitchfork, and tail, but have not come up with anything remotely submitable. I had some ideas but could not get them even close to being something I was happy with. Anyhow, on a side note: I still think the www.freebsd.COM site is an excellent idea. Hopefully some people with the time and skills can pull it off. That is not me, but they get my vote and gratitude. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 18:34:38 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DEB16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:34:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web53904.mail.yahoo.com (web53904.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54E3D43D41 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:34:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stheg_olloydson@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 71130 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Feb 2005 18:34:37 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=B4LdEX8wJbjUcN9eSDT4zCAbu8xs/p+Eq1dlcLyI0wCt9Oj9ly9+AhVys/qWpCSBcDIwNI7CSld5cqfpPdtyljLylSb+j3tczGzrKh0wamoseSu1vC0Q2amExEmoTS8MSnxlN2A6/5LmTvO1pp/h3S7lIm3SIdrhOTIQS2dkbYo= ; Message-ID: <20050210183437.71128.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.210.34.46] by web53904.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:34:36 PST Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:34:36 -0800 (PST) From: stheg olloydson To: Johnson David , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD5@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.5: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:34:39 -0000 --- Johnson David wrote: > From: stheg olloydson [mailto:stheg_olloydson@yahoo.com] > > > > Now as to the "need" to change the logo, to quote the announcement, > > "This character sometimes treated with misinterpreted in the > > religious and cultural context." Over the years, the only > complaints I > > have ever heard have come from America's Taliban. Leaving aside the > > question of whether or not the complainers are in a position to > make > > any sort of IT decision, one must ask what is their motivation for > > complaining. They are simply trying to force their religious > orthodoxy > > on others. These are the same people trying to eliminate the > barrier > > between state and church to make the United States into a > theocratic > > country. Therefore, these complaints can be categorized as coming > from > > an irrational minority that should be ignored. > > Please keep your personal politics and cultural bigotry off of these > lists. > There is no "America's Taliban", and the use of the term is used > solely to > incite emotions. Thinking that just because people share you views on > operating systems they must also share you views on religion and > foreign > policy is sheer hubris. > > I realize that geeks and hackers tend to be irreligious, and Open > Source a > collection of global communities, but not until today have I seen > such > anti-Christian and anti-America bigotry in the FreeBSD community. Is > this to > be the new standard of discourse? If so, tell me now so I can avoid > the rush > in switching to another BSD. > > As a Christian I am not in the least offended by Beastie. But I am > getting > quite offended by people stereotyping my religion, nation and > culture. > > David Johnson > Well, well, well! Hit too close to home did I? I said that those complaining about the beastie belong to an irrational minority that wish to impose their religion on others. In what way is this statement bigotry or anti-Christian or anti-American? You, however, make a very revealing statement when you say, "But I am getting quite offended by people stereotyping my religion, nation and culture." The operative word here is "my". Why do you think that I am not a Christian American produced by the same culture as you? Is it because I have a name not typically associated with being an American? I think your assumption proves my "xenophobia" remark, at least in regards to you, don't you? Best regards, Stheg Olloydson __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 18:49:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3D016A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:49:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28A5A43D4C for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:49:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A7EA2.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.126.162]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1AIn7YS035030; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:49:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1AIniis002627; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:49:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1AIniRo051494; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:49:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200502101849.j1AIniRo051494@fire.jhs.private> To: "Devon H. O'Dell" In-Reply-To: Message from "Devon H. O'Dell" <1108044195.5517.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:49:44 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:49:10 -0000 "Devon H. O'Dell" wrote: > First: this is about PRINTING. What happens when you print any of the > currently available FreeBSD logos? I'll tell you. Your explanation of printing techniques seems worth keeping for reference, Would you perhaps consider submiting a send-pr to extend /usr/share/examples/BSD_daemon/README ? - Julian Stacey. Unix,C,Net & Sys. Eng. Consultant, Munich. http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii, Html dumped as Spam. Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 19:17:20 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D3516A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:17:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.tyndale.com (mail1.tyndale.com [68.74.233.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFCBA43D41 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:17:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from harrison@tbc.net) Received: from mailnode1.tyndale.com (unverified) by mail1.tyndale.com for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:17:27 -0600 Received: from [10.192.104.91] ([10.192.104.91]) by mailnode1.tyndale.com; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:17:16 -0600 Message-ID: <420BB3CA.30209@tbc.net> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:19:38 -0600 From: Shawn Harrison User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> <20050210114338.B30327@one.thequestion.net> In-Reply-To: <20050210114338.B30327@one.thequestion.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:17:20 -0000 Dave Wood wrote [02/10/05 11:41 AM]: > It's a known fact that people judge books by the cover, despite the > fact that everyone knows it's really what's inside that counts. I work in publishing, and we have this very issue. Editors are concerned with making what's _inside_ good, and rarely get any credit. Marketers are concerned with what's on the outside. It is absolutely true that the package is what sells the book. At the same time, we employ several dozen full time editors, because we know that what's inside is what really counts. It's also what sells the book again -- in other words, what gives it "word-of-mouth." A lot of editors think that people should buy based on content, and they get frustrated by the attention given to package. But the package is what gets the good content in front of people for consideration. > I believe that the more people that use FreeBSD, the better it will > become. More users = more support from hardware manufactures = > easier installations = more users. And the first step is to present > an image that corporations have no problem being connected with. I agree with you, but there are always those who think that more users is bad, that it waters down the quality of the software or the community. I only think that is true if you let people become committers who are not absolutely top-notch well-qualified people, or if you lose your focus and start chasing every fluffy feature. As the community grows, sure there will be more newbies around, but there will also be more journeymen around to field their questions and vet their bug reports. Having more people using the system doesn't diminish its capabilities, but in fact increases its leverage. That is good both from a technical _and_ a marketing standpoint. -- ________________ harrison@tbc.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 19:37:11 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E5516A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:37:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.tyndale.com (mail1.tyndale.com [68.74.233.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C79E743D53 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:37:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from harrison@tbc.net) Received: from mailnode1.tyndale.com (unverified) by mail1.tyndale.com for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:37:17 -0600 Received: from [10.192.104.91] ([10.192.104.91]) by mailnode1.tyndale.com; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:36:58 -0600 Message-ID: <420BB85D.90603@tbc.net> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:39:09 -0600 From: Shawn Harrison User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> <2fd864e050210094636e2a16c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2fd864e050210094636e2a16c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:37:11 -0000 Astrodog wrote [02/10/05 11:46 AM]: > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:29:48 -0600, Shawn Harrison wrote: >> >>Someone with artistic skill needs to make some stylized horns. >> > > I suppose my point would be that the effort that will go into the > logo, and even into this whole discussion, might be better placed, > atleast from those interested in doing it. Check the other thread on > this list, re: Business Information if that's something you wanna do, > I suppose. > > --- Harrison Grundy The DTP / marketing information pieces that you guys have been talking about are excellent ideas, as is freebsd.com. There's room for all of it. In fact, this logo / mascot / religion* / professional / business thing has brought out a lot of good discussion in the past couple of days.* That leaked announcement might be the best thing that's happened for freebsd-advocacy@ in a long time. (Certainly, those who are working on that announcement have gotten the editorial feedback they need to make a final draft for the public!) (* except for the religion-bashing from some and the responses to that from others, both of which seem entirely beside the point and unconstructive. OTOH, it _was_ the first rationale in the leaked announcement. And human beings can never fully put aside their own beliefs / "religion" in any situation, nor should they, which makes it necessary to be patient with one another). -- ________________ harrison@tbc.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 19:58:59 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32D5A16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:58:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A3243D39 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:58:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 78D4A1C000AF for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:58:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 5D4F81C00098 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:58:57 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050210195857382.5D4F81C00098@mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:58:57 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <933509960.20050210205857@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:58:59 -0000 Shawn Harrison writes: > Someone with artistic skill needs to make some stylized horns. That has occurred to me, too (or perhaps a stylized, forked tail), but the problem with this is that anything that is _unambiguously_ a representation of Beastie (and his ostensibly satanic character) is going to be a sticking point for a certain minority of the potential customer base. So it's best to stick to something that has multiple interpretations, of which at least one or two are clearly harmless. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 20:00:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8FBB16A4F0 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:00:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A688D43D58 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:00:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D430B1C000A3 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:00:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id B45111C00092 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:00:55 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050210200055738.B45111C00092@mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:00:55 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <299713472.20050210210055@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050210114338.B30327@one.thequestion.net> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> <20050210114338.B30327@one.thequestion.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:00:57 -0000 Dave Wood writes: > Once the contest is offically launched, how do people feel about inviting > a bunch of professional logo design companies to participate. The $500 > prize won't convince them to partake, but the vast exposure almost > certainly will. No, it won't. FreeBSD is small potatoes, and no design firm is going to give away its work (which essentially tells clients that its work is worthless). The old "the publicity is worth more than a fee" argument is laughed at by serious graphic artists. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 20:11:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7278D16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:11:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.byd.ca (ns1.byd.ca [65.39.131.104]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E4AD43D45 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:11:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@activeeffects.com) Received: (qmail 65560 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2005 20:11:16 -0000 Received: from cpe0000cd061f26-cm400026180624.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com (HELO ?192.168.11.2?) (24.103.21.15) by 0 with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 20:11:16 -0000 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:08:27 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Wood X-X-Sender: dave@one.thequestion.net To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <299713472.20050210210055@wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: <20050210150444.R31485@one.thequestion.net> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> <299713472.20050210210055@wanadoo.fr> X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:11:49 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > No, it won't. FreeBSD is small potatoes, and no design firm is going to > give away its work (which essentially tells clients that its work is > worthless). The old "the publicity is worth more than a fee" argument > is laughed at by serious graphic artists. I have to completely disagree here. The FreeBSD team gives away their work, and it's certainly not worthless. -- Dave Wood From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 20:21:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A698E16A4D0 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:21:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.192]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B7CB43D49 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:21:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jcapote@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so186758wra for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:21:42 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; b=EeCOuuROrV7SsfumrMrDdse6DdSCEaCOV2E2Gz8CLuYFSgRxZkOtB50Yo3NW3XikIHUXvnpygqZPCiC/Ij14SP2ez0V+LHRbJwx3adkUxKoLPs4RmXJGggLoja/kVeD3fZEOdyBLwW+9jasUsSQ3ZtLVEgrE1Fq1Z3ciMBb6bHA= Received: by 10.54.23.34 with SMTP id 34mr26232wrw; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([65.10.15.61]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTP id 65sm7291wra.2005.02.10.12.21.37; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:21:37 -0800 (PST) From: Julio Capote To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <299713472.20050210210055@wanadoo.fr> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> <20050210114338.B30327@one.thequestion.net> <299713472.20050210210055@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:24:04 -0500 Message-Id: <1108067044.658.12.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:21:43 -0000 Untrue, I know a NUMBER of emerging graphic artists, who would kill for this kind of exposure, and are much better than any commercialized firm I've seen. On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 21:00 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Dave Wood writes: > > > Once the contest is offically launched, how do people feel about inviting > > a bunch of professional logo design companies to participate. The $500 > > prize won't convince them to partake, but the vast exposure almost > > certainly will. > > No, it won't. FreeBSD is small potatoes, and no design firm is going to > give away its work (which essentially tells clients that its work is > worthless). The old "the publicity is worth more than a fee" argument > is laughed at by serious graphic artists. > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 20:42:01 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C16516A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:42:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F12A643D31 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:42:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id CA35E1C0008D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:41:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A40701C000AA for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:41:56 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050210204156671.A40701C000AA@mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:41:56 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1197442962.20050210214156@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050210150444.R31485@one.thequestion.net> References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420ACD5E.3030708@pacific.net.sg> <1709665858.20050210101217@wanadoo.fr> <420B8BFC.4070303@tbc.net> <299713472.20050210210055@wanadoo.fr> <20050210150444.R31485@one.thequestion.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:42:01 -0000 Dave Wood writes: > I have to completely disagree here. > > The FreeBSD team gives away their work, and it's certainly not worthless. They don't need to pay the rent with their work. Graphic design firms and artists do. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 21:52:37 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C819416A4CE; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:52:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sb.santaba.com (sb.santaba.com [207.154.84.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2F743D46; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:52:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jbehl@fastclick.com) Received: from [192.168.3.100] (unknown [205.180.85.193]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by sb.santaba.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3471C28433; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:52:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <420BD7DD.5000304@fastclick.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:53:33 -0800 From: Jeff Behl User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Kelsey References: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> <20050210005856.GC818@thened.net> <20050209164359.J31921@knight.ixsystems.net> <1108005975.683.47.camel@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> In-Reply-To: <1108005975.683.47.camel@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 5.3 MySQL Performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:52:37 -0000 >Any so-called "benchmark" comparing Linux to anything else (especially >windoze) has been polluted by the tradition in the linux/windoze world >of running their disks in the completely unsafe "asynchronous" mode so >popular with the ATA disk drive manufacturers. This method means that >you never actually know whether or not the drive ever writes your data >on the disk. It could just sit in the cache waiting for a power failure >so that you lose everything. This "async" mode means that the >benchmarks "look" fast but are completely unsafe. > > > so by this logic, if i re-mount my partitions async i can get the same performance? this isn't meant as a rub, i would seriously consider doing this if it were the case. i'd like to know any and all ways i can make mysql faster. we have fleats of mysql servers with redundant data. the loss of a server due to corruption is not problematic From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 22:14:19 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8F416A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:14:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBED743D2F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:14:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from [157.226.230.208] (port=2519 helo=mvaexch01.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CzMZH-0004ZQ-3I; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:13:47 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:00:14 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641ADF@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'stheg olloydson' , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:44:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.2: RE: SPAM: Score 2.5: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:14:19 -0000 From: stheg olloydson [mailto:stheg_olloydson@yahoo.com] > > Well, well, well! Hit too close to home did I? I said that those > complaining about the beastie belong to an irrational minority that > wish to impose their religion on others. In what way is this statement > bigotry or anti-Christian or anti-American? The phrases you used were: "America's Taliban", "force their religious orthodoxy", "eliminate the barrier between state and church", "make the United States into a theocratic country", and "an irrational minority". These statements are false mischaracterizations designed to promulgate a stereotype. Similar statements about race, gender or ethnicity are bigotry, so using them to stereotype a creed is no different. In many cases there will be those who do indeed fit the stereotype. There are some Jews who have large noses and are miserly. There are some blacks who talk in rhyme and eat watermelon. There are some homosexuals who talk with a lisp and weak wrists. So yes, there are some "Christians" who probably do want a theocracy and an elimination of the disestablishment clause. But those people are in the very small insignificant minority. I did not take offense because you merely mentioned that these people exist. I took offense because you have magnified these people far beyond their petty importance. Your post was NOT about the logo contest, but the continuation of an errnoneous and politically loaded stereotype. David Johnson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 23:30:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E15516A4D0 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:30:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EA12343D1F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:30:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.27.163 with login) by smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 2005 23:19:59 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, scott@sremick.net Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:19:58 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <20050210182549.15605.qmail@web53601.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050210182549.15605.qmail@web53601.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502101519.59227.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Subject: freebsd.com (was: Re: Logo Contest) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:30:23 -0000 On Thursday 10 February 2005 10:25 am, "Scott I. Remick" wrote: > Anyhow, on a side note: I still think the www.freebsd.COM site is an > excellent idea. Hopefully some people with the time and skills can > pull it off. That is not me, but they get my vote and gratitude. Maybe I missed this ... what would be the purpose of freebsd.com? PR? Just curious ... maybe I could help out here. - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 23:42:50 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D906616A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:42:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web53909.mail.yahoo.com (web53909.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 313BF43D45 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:42:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stheg_olloydson@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 51133 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Feb 2005 23:42:49 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=GQw1xslfsCoCW6ZtTLUulODqt7pvZm0G0IGD8uRj3a1rNQwbel14YD6RqQpG22piTS1xSwCrIrk8sJ5YpKyrcCmL2+825uY3bJy2BmD1cp4GGAv6Fr/oIihfnWbZcnSlSAz+O34OXu+SMUuYiAFX4kENz0CnG5HiOSFs5ksqh20= ; Message-ID: <20050210234249.51131.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.210.34.46] by web53909.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:42:49 PST Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:42:49 -0800 (PST) From: stheg olloydson To: Johnson David , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641ADF@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.2: RE: SPAM: Score 2.5: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:42:51 -0000 --- Johnson David wrote: > From: stheg olloydson [mailto:stheg_olloydson@yahoo.com] > > > > Well, well, well! Hit too close to home did I? I said that those > > complaining about the beastie belong to an irrational minority that > > wish to impose their religion on others. In what way is this > statement > > bigotry or anti-Christian or anti-American? > > The phrases you used were: "America's Taliban", "force their > religious > orthodoxy", "eliminate the barrier between state and church", "make > the > United States into a theocratic country", and "an irrational > minority". > If you wish to quote me, then use a real quote and not selective "sound bites": SO>Over the years, the only complaints I have ever heard have come from SO>America's Taliban. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What is the Taliban? A group of religious fanatics that believe their interpretation of their holy book is the only one and if, necessary, it should be forced on others. So what is America's Taliban? Americans of the same ilk. Search the archives to see the source of those making this complaint. I can't help the fact they're Americans. SO>Leaving aside the question of whether or not the complainers are in a SO>position to make any sort of IT decision, one must ask what is their SO>motivation for complaining. They are simply trying to force their SO>religious orthodoxy on others. This is undeniable because that's _why_ they're complaining. SO>These are the same people trying to eliminate the barrier between SO>state and church to make the United States into a theocratic country. True, this is a leap of faith on my part, but a small leap. But I think is reasonable to assume that anyone going to the trouble to advocate that a cartoon character is an inherently evil is likely to believe a state religion is a good idea, too. SO>Therefore, these complaints can be categorized as coming from an SO>irrational minority that should be ignored. > So yes, there are some "Christians" who probably do want a theocracy > and an > elimination of the disestablishment clause. But those people are in > the very > small insignificant minority. I explicitly said that. I did NOT say that were Christians; that was you. > > I did not take offense because you merely mentioned that these people > exist. Sure you did. You are offended because you inferred by statements to mean something I didn't say. Then when I pointed that out to you, you made the same claim. > I took offense because you have magnified these people far beyond > their > petty importance. Your post was NOT about the logo contest, but the > continuation of an errnoneous and politically loaded stereotype. I didn't magnify their importance, whoever decided to change the logo to appease them did. Of course my post was about the contest. Let me synopsize it for you since you clearly have comprehension difficulties. First, I brought up the fact that the decision to change the logo was kept secret from the community. Then I questioned the "need" for the change. (This is apparently the only part you read.) Then I questioned the method being used to pick the new logo. Then I made the argument that if "the FreeBSD Project" kowtows to one group's prejudices, why not go all the way and kowtow to all of them. > > David Johnson > Best regards, Stheg Olloydson __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 10 23:43:02 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1505D16A4CE for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:43:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.tyndale.com (mail1.tyndale.com [68.74.233.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B0543D3F for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:43:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from harrison@tbc.net) Received: from mailnode1.tyndale.com (unverified) by mail1.tyndale.com for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:43:09 -0600 Received: from [10.192.104.91] ([10.192.104.91]) by mailnode1.tyndale.com; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:42:41 -0600 Message-ID: <420BF1FF.9030400@tbc.net> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:45:03 -0600 From: Shawn Harrison User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20050210182549.15605.qmail@web53601.mail.yahoo.com> <200502101519.59227.krinklyfig@spymac.com> In-Reply-To: <200502101519.59227.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: freebsd.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:43:02 -0000 Joshua Tinnin wrote [02/10/05 5:19 PM]: > On Thursday 10 February 2005 10:25 am, "Scott I. Remick" > wrote: > > >>Anyhow, on a side note: I still think the www.freebsd.COM site is an >>excellent idea. Hopefully some people with the time and skills can >>pull it off. That is not me, but they get my vote and gratitude. > > > Maybe I missed this ... what would be the purpose of freebsd.com? PR? > Just curious ... maybe I could help out here. > > - jt An interface to FreeBSD that says, "Professional solutions for enterprise IT management and infrastructure" rather than "Cool open-source software project." You know, links like "Products, Solutions, Partners" rather than "Bugs, Download, Community." A counter example might be "Linux.com". Big headline today: "GNOME Photo Printer: A nifty little app" To me, it screams, "Geek site." I think the point is to create something that people who don't necessarily like nifty apps and neat features would be persuaded by. That's just my take on it. Hope I'm not stepping on any toes -- I think FreeBSD.com is a great idea. -- ________________ harrison@tbc.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 00:11:58 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4814816A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:11:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C946343D1D for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:11:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jcapote@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so220694wra for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:11:57 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; b=JJkHuD/T2eZGCD/SMXEBpNatZqfV9FmpA2t6TChQz8xYMF/HhsOU7JOf7MP0dJB2k7O+G5WyfSaQ+FaWyHvH0GWRflemqnS/p7h9s+zcqK0ISD2UASNLj2bGZ2Yzxj5AycO8cza8u1k6Y/4VM1Hr6uC+iBbilmJd8wY+9hce2hs= Received: by 10.54.33.79 with SMTP id g79mr38920wrg; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([65.10.15.61]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTP id d7sm11327wra.2005.02.10.16.11.51; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:11:51 -0800 (PST) From: Julio Capote To: Shawn Harrison In-Reply-To: <420BF1FF.9030400@tbc.net> References: <20050210182549.15605.qmail@web53601.mail.yahoo.com> <420BF1FF.9030400@tbc.net> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:14:26 -0500 Message-Id: <1108080866.658.20.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:11:58 -0000 I think that the entire point of an IT deptartment, is to provide that "geek abstraction"; no CEO goes to www.linux.com and decides to go with linux for thier infastructure. They ask thier IT deptartment to make those decisions. On the same token, no small business owner/executive is going to goto www.freebsd.com and download an iso and install it on all thier servers based on some marketing hype. Sites like www.redhat.com are an exception because they are indeed a commercial entity that sells services/products based on Linux, Freebsd has no such entity. On the other hand, I am all for a redesigning of the .org website so that looks a bit more professional (something like www.mozilla.org maybe?), complete with OUR OWN forums, instead of using bsdforums.org. A wiki would also be nice. Just my 2 cents.. - Julio On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 17:45 -0600, Shawn Harrison wrote: > Joshua Tinnin wrote [02/10/05 5:19 PM]: > > On Thursday 10 February 2005 10:25 am, "Scott I. Remick" > > wrote: > > > > > >>Anyhow, on a side note: I still think the www.freebsd.COM site is an > >>excellent idea. Hopefully some people with the time and skills can > >>pull it off. That is not me, but they get my vote and gratitude. > > > > > > Maybe I missed this ... what would be the purpose of freebsd.com? PR? > > Just curious ... maybe I could help out here. > > > > - jt > > An interface to FreeBSD that says, "Professional solutions for > enterprise IT management and infrastructure" rather than "Cool > open-source software project." You know, links like "Products, > Solutions, Partners" rather than "Bugs, Download, Community." > > A counter example might be "Linux.com". Big headline today: "GNOME Photo > Printer: A nifty little app" To me, it screams, "Geek site." I think the > point is to create something that people who don't necessarily like > nifty apps and neat features would be persuaded by. > > That's just my take on it. Hope I'm not stepping on any toes -- I think > FreeBSD.com is a great idea. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 00:12:14 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2BB016A4D0 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:12:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp815.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp815.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 571EB43D2D for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:12:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.27.163 with login) by smtp815.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Feb 2005 00:12:14 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:12:13 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <20050210182549.15605.qmail@web53601.mail.yahoo.com> <200502101519.59227.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <420BF1FF.9030400@tbc.net> In-Reply-To: <420BF1FF.9030400@tbc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502101612.13825.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Subject: Re: freebsd.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:12:14 -0000 On Thursday 10 February 2005 03:45 pm, Shawn Harrison wrote: > Joshua Tinnin wrote [02/10/05 5:19 PM]: > > On Thursday 10 February 2005 10:25 am, "Scott I. Remick" > > wrote: > > > > > >>Anyhow, on a side note: I still think the www.freebsd.COM site is > >> an excellent idea. Hopefully some people with the time and skills > >> can pull it off. That is not me, but they get my vote and > >> gratitude. > > > > Maybe I missed this ... what would be the purpose of freebsd.com? > > PR? Just curious ... maybe I could help out here. > > An interface to FreeBSD that says, "Professional solutions for > enterprise IT management and infrastructure" rather than "Cool > open-source software project." You know, links like "Products, > Solutions, Partners" rather than "Bugs, Download, Community." > > A counter example might be "Linux.com". Big headline today: "GNOME > Photo Printer: A nifty little app" To me, it screams, "Geek site." I > think the point is to create something that people who don't > necessarily like nifty apps and neat features would be persuaded by. > > That's just my take on it. Hope I'm not stepping on any toes -- I > think FreeBSD.com is a great idea. OK, well would it be worthwhile for me to start working on some comps for this? Or do other people not like the idea? - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 02:47:07 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A17E16A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:47:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B912843D48 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:47:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from linicks@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so251061rns for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:47:06 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=HAPxRmFnAX7x++f3+729Z3j3Z9eu4gOCU20flPaexnOltfnF1Cswb9GfvlK7hMTysE6rokEvBdbMQZDabHec8PcGjQmfsEZIMWJCOd2HRYZ571GURJdU1OKSP5f1wCZgOpV5j1nmNZt1EvcvfX8MUPOzVIbTtWjdEbEqTmM1ylo= Received: by 10.38.179.13 with SMTP id b13mr23338rnf; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.8.20 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:47:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:47:04 -0700 From: Nick Pavlica To: Stephan Lichtenauer In-Reply-To: <163A0D80-7B48-11D9-B2EC-000A95D5F764@mnet-online.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200502091349.00708.algould@datawok.com> <420AE14F.6050104@pacific.net.sg> <200502092248.15008.algould@datawok.com> <200502092133.04884.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <259024940.20050210102037@wanadoo.fr> <163A0D80-7B48-11D9-B2EC-000A95D5F764@mnet-online.de> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Nick Pavlica List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:47:07 -0000 Personally I'm very happy that they are changing the logo. Thanks to those that decided to take the plunge to do this! --Nick On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:42:32 +0100, Stephan Lichtenauer wrote: > > Am 10.02.2005 um 10:20 schrieb Anthony Atkielski: > > > Joshua Tinnin writes: > > > > I don't think that a logo makes or breaks deals, but from a public > > relations and marketing standpoint a good logo is extremely useful, and > > the lack of a logo (or a very busy logo that's hard to use and > > recognize) can be a liability. > > > > > I agree. I even would bring back the issue of a separate freebsd.com > website presenting the business case of FreeBSD while freebsd.org is > perfect as it is now for people looking for technical information about > how to use the system. > > Stephan > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 05:11:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A0E16A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:11:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A4943D39 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:11:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) j1B5BVj23800; Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:11:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Erich Dollansky" , "Ted Mittelstaedt" Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:11:30 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <420B53CA.4050009@pacific.net.sg> Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: A few words about the logo change X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:11:35 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Erich Dollansky [mailto:oceanare@pacific.net.sg] > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:30 AM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: A few words about the logo change > > > > FreeBSD Unleashed > > I also have that book, but I did not realise until now that one has a > logo and the other one doesn't. > More accurately, one has a devil image and one doesen't. The most recognizable image of beastie that has currently been used as a logo is the image that appeared on the FreeBSD 1.1 CD's, Walnut Creek, BSDI and even the FreeBSD website today use that image. However the devil/demon image has long been associated with UNIX and it's use predates the drawing on the FreeBSD 1.1 CD that became the recognized logo of FreeBSD. I used the devil image because of the log history of associating the demon/devil image with UNIX, in addition to the fact that a specific rendering of it is used as the FreeBSD logo. Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 06:52:41 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2106916A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:52:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D316843D55 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:52:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 23969 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2005 06:52:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by sarajevo with SMTP; 11 Feb 2005 06:52:37 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050211065236.XNNZ1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:52:36 +0800 Message-ID: <420C56AF.2090601@pacific.net.sg> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:54:39 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: A few words about the logo change X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:52:41 -0000 Hi, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > More accurately, one has a devil image and one doesen't. The most I would say that the "unleashed" has an even more diabolic front cover. It looks to me like a devil's face with two glowing eyes looking out of hell. > BSDI and even the FreeBSD website today use that image. However the > devil/demon image has long been associated with UNIX and it's use This is one important reason for keeping beastie as it is. I also had to look into some book to refresh my memory of Greek history when I heard of "daemons" the very first time in the late seventies when I have had my first contact with Unix at the univerity. Of course, people ignoring everything which does not fit their horizon will make an issue out of this. But who will give FreeBSD the guarantee that the removal of beastie as a logo will be the last issue? I think that this will just open the gates. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 07:05:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F194816A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:05:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC2643D2F for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:05:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3A0251C00099 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:05:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3D42F1C00091 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:05:07 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050211070508251.3D42F1C00091@mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:05:06 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <402128038.20050211080506@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420BF1FF.9030400@tbc.net> References: <20050210182549.15605.qmail@web53601.mail.yahoo.com> <200502101519.59227.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <420BF1FF.9030400@tbc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: freebsd.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:05:11 -0000 Shawn Harrison writes: > An interface to FreeBSD that says, "Professional solutions for > enterprise IT management and infrastructure" rather than "Cool > open-source software project." You know, links like "Products, > Solutions, Partners" rather than "Bugs, Download, Community." Agreed. To address different markets you need different messages. > A counter example might be "Linux.com". Big headline today: "GNOME > Photo Printer: A nifty little app" To me, it screams, "Geek site." I > think the point is to create something that people who don't > necessarily like nifty apps and neat features would be persuaded by. Yes. Perhaps a site that is essentially pure marketing and promotion, to help persuade non-geek managers who have to make OS decisions. I personally think that non-specialists shouldn't be making OS decisions, but in the real world they often are, and they tend to believe whatever they read in their favorite magazine or on their favorite Web site, irrespective of technical realities. That's how Linux got so popular, even though better UNIX operating systems existed already. > That's just my take on it. Hope I'm not stepping on any toes -- I > think FreeBSD.com is a great idea. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 08:23:45 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170CC16A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:23:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq1.home.nl (smtpq1.home.nl [213.51.128.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C48543D31 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:23:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.135] (port=50098 helo=smtp4.home.nl) by smtpq1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CzW5V-0006MX-6d; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:23:41 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:32864 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp4.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CzW5T-0001bi-Ae; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:23:39 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: "Julian H. Stacey" In-Reply-To: <200502101849.j1AIniRo051494@fire.jhs.private> References: <200502101849.j1AIniRo051494@fire.jhs.private> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: SiteTronics Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:23:38 +0100 Message-Id: <1108110218.4084.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:23:45 -0000 On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 19:49 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > "Devon H. O'Dell" wrote: > > First: this is about PRINTING. What happens when you print any of the > > currently available FreeBSD logos? I'll tell you. > > Your explanation of printing techniques seems worth keeping for reference, > Would you perhaps consider submiting a send-pr to extend > /usr/share/examples/BSD_daemon/README ? > > - > Julian Stacey. Unix,C,Net & Sys. Eng. Consultant, Munich. http://berklix.com > Mail in Ascii, Html dumped as Spam. Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. Sure. Let me brush up on my docbook-fu and I'll send something today or tomorrow. --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 09:50:59 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FECA16A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:50:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq3.home.nl (smtpq3.home.nl [213.51.128.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD27843D2D for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:50:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.133] (port=43311 helo=smtp2.home.nl) by smtpq3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CzXRy-000872-1a; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:50:58 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:33145 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CzXRv-0003kV-KV; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:50:55 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: "Julian H. Stacey" In-Reply-To: <1108110218.4084.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200502101849.j1AIniRo051494@fire.jhs.private> <1108110218.4084.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: SiteTronics Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:50:55 +0100 Message-Id: <1108115455.4084.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Logo Contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:50:59 -0000 On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 09:23 +0100, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 19:49 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > "Devon H. O'Dell" wrote: > > > First: this is about PRINTING. What happens when you print any of the > > > currently available FreeBSD logos? I'll tell you. > > > > Your explanation of printing techniques seems worth keeping for reference, > > Would you perhaps consider submiting a send-pr to extend > > /usr/share/examples/BSD_daemon/README ? > > > > - > > Julian Stacey. Unix,C,Net & Sys. Eng. Consultant, Munich. http://berklix.com > > Mail in Ascii, Html dumped as Spam. Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. > > Sure. Let me brush up on my docbook-fu and I'll send something today or > tomorrow. > > --Devon Eh, pardon; obviously README requires no docbook. I haven't had my coffee yet (I've only used it as an excuse once before, so it should still be valid! :)). --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 12:42:40 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B916716A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:42:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.156.12.53]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EAEF43D5F for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:42:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 98BEB46B43; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:42:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:41:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Julio Capote In-Reply-To: <1108080866.658.20.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:42:40 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Julio Capote wrote: > I think that the entire point of an IT deptartment, is to provide that > "geek abstraction"; no CEO goes to www.linux.com and decides to go with > linux for thier infastructure. They ask thier IT deptartment to make > those decisions. On the same token, no small business owner/executive is > going to goto www.freebsd.com and download an iso and install it on all > thier servers based on some marketing hype. Sites like www.redhat.com > are an exception because they are indeed a commercial entity that sells > services/products based on Linux, Freebsd has no such entity. I don't know if I buy into "FreeBSD.com" or not, but I do buy into the idea that what we need to do is provide ammunition for IT departments that want to promote FreeBSD in their organization. I.e., white papers on FreeBSD as an effective solution, a professional front page that they can point at and say "Look, this is real", and material to help third party CDROM and support vendors provide FreeBSD support to their clients. The trick will be finding the right balance in not hiding the fact that one of the greatest assets of FreeBSD is that it's driven by developers who are also consumers, but provides help to people who want to sell FreeBSD as the professional product that it is. An idea that's been thrown around by a number of people at various points is to produce a set of short, professional-looking, white papers on FreeBSD use in various environments -- FreeBSD in the computation cluster, FreeBSD as an enterprise mail solution, FreeBSD for web clusters, FreeBSD as the foundation for an appliance, and so on. Something that an IT department can take to their director/etc saying "This is a recognized solution -- it works for these people, it will work for us". Robert N M Watson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 12:50:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08AB16A4D1; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:50:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq3.home.nl (smtpq3.home.nl [213.51.128.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183F743D54; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:50:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.133] (port=37416 helo=smtp2.home.nl) by smtpq3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CzaFk-0002NX-E3; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:50:32 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:33710 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CzaFi-0006R9-Mj; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:50:30 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: SiteTronics Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:50:29 +0100 Message-Id: <1108126229.4084.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:50:33 -0000 On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 12:41 +0000, Robert Watson wrote: > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Julio Capote wrote: > > > I think that the entire point of an IT deptartment, is to provide that > > "geek abstraction"; no CEO goes to www.linux.com and decides to go with > > linux for thier infastructure. They ask thier IT deptartment to make > > those decisions. On the same token, no small business owner/executive is > > going to goto www.freebsd.com and download an iso and install it on all > > thier servers based on some marketing hype. Sites like www.redhat.com > > are an exception because they are indeed a commercial entity that sells > > services/products based on Linux, Freebsd has no such entity. > > I don't know if I buy into "FreeBSD.com" or not, but I do buy into the > idea that what we need to do is provide ammunition for IT departments that > want to promote FreeBSD in their organization. I.e., white papers on > FreeBSD as an effective solution, a professional front page that they can > point at and say "Look, this is real", and material to help third party > CDROM and support vendors provide FreeBSD support to their clients. The > trick will be finding the right balance in not hiding the fact that one of > the greatest assets of FreeBSD is that it's driven by developers who are > also consumers, but provides help to people who want to sell FreeBSD as > the professional product that it is. > > An idea that's been thrown around by a number of people at various points > is to produce a set of short, professional-looking, white papers on > FreeBSD use in various environments -- FreeBSD in the computation cluster, > FreeBSD as an enterprise mail solution, FreeBSD for web clusters, FreeBSD > as the foundation for an appliance, and so on. Something that an IT > department can take to their director/etc saying "This is a recognized > solution -- it works for these people, it will work for us". > > Robert N M Watson I'm actually busy with a couple of whitepapers for some of these subject for work. I'll see if I can come up with a convincing layout and perhaps if others contribute, we can get an officially endorsed site. We do need something to show that FreeBSD is a powerful tool in commercial areas, and I agree that a site to show that is a good solution. Especially if we have backing from the kind folk from the FreeBSD core :) Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 13:46:50 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C6CB16A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:46:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 81B5D43D1D for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:46:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:46:13 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:46:46 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Subject: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:46:50 -0000 Based on the current discussions regarding a new freebsd logo and continuing in the spirit of the mockups for a website redesign produced during January, I created a mockup of a design that would go further than the previous more conservative modifications and which includes a new logo. http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1g.gif Cheers, Chris chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 14:05:17 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7028016A4CE; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:05:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from phoenix.gargantuan.com (phoenix.gargantuan.com [24.73.171.238]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D898D43D1F; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:05:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from michael@gargantuan.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.gargantuan.com [127.0.0.1]) by spamassassin-injector (Postfix) with SMTP id 21217256; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from gambit.gargantuan.com (gambit.gargantuan.com [IPv6:3ffe:c00:8034:a00::1b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by phoenix.gargantuan.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B2E40F; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:05:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:05:03 -0500 From: "Michael W. Oliver" To: Robert Watson Message-ID: <20050211140503.GB17185@gargantuan.com> Mail-Followup-To: Robert Watson , Julio Capote , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <1108080866.658.20.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="l76fUT7nc3MelDdI" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-WWW-URL: http://michael.gargantuan.com X-GPG-PGP-Public-Key: http://michael.gargantuan.com/gnupg/pubkey.asc X-GPG-PGP-Fingerprint: 2694 0179 AE3F BFAE 0916 0BF5 B16B FBAB C5FA A3C9 X-Home-Phone: +1-863-816-8091 X-Mobile-Phone: +1-863-738-2334 X-Mailing-Address0: 8008 Apache Lane X-Mailing-Address1: Lakeland, FL X-Mailing-Address2: 33810-2172 X-Mailing-Address3: United States of America X-Guide-Questions: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html X-Guide-Netiquette: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i X-Spam-DCC: sgs_public_dcc_server: phoenix.gargantuan.com 1199; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on phoenix.gargantuan.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-135.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, LOCAL_RCVD,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Pyzor: Reported 0 times. cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:05:17 -0000 --l76fUT7nc3MelDdI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2005-02-11T12:41:30+0000, Robert Watson wrote: > An idea that's been thrown around by a number of people at various points > is to produce a set of short, professional-looking, white papers on > FreeBSD use in various environments -- FreeBSD in the computation cluster, > FreeBSD as an enterprise mail solution, FreeBSD for web clusters, FreeBSD > as the foundation for an appliance, and so on. Something that an IT > department can take to their director/etc saying "This is a recognized > solution -- it works for these people, it will work for us". Don't forget the "BSD Success Stories" that Dru shared a while back. I am sharing them also. NOTE: I host this off of a cable modem, so please be gentle ;) (flyer - single page - 974862 bytes) http://michael.gargantuan.com/FreeBSD/40380_FLYER_BSD_SS-1.pdf (booklet - 26 pages - 465406 bytes) http://michael.gargantuan.com/FreeBSD/bsd_ss.pdf --=20 Michael W. Oliver [see complete headers for contact information] --l76fUT7nc3MelDdI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCDLuPsWv7q8X6o8kRAi8SAJ4rsGzN2ZSRHnYwUeJ1FRd78eiy3gCggDIE 1BJPkyXnpkZ0yAAxBw5OFNY= =sYVg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --l76fUT7nc3MelDdI-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 14:49:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E82116A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:49:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D792743D45 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:49:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so301283wra for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:49:26 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=fcEjmQZaFWVtnKWJuDXfM2mD0s/Qkq9ajCEBYpRiFwDid0Uvs9Vo5fa64NV3DQSbY5qOjyTNRcGYRV0FF83jbkvvYHeZTtrFw8Wsez4T15uH0W1ReJfwOZ6+CKOeMphdm70doQcsIrvYio8OsXWPm22y8ru9Hy9KiYY3HuP1YGA= Received: by 10.54.18.56 with SMTP id 56mr45799wrr; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:49:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e0502110649585ce3a5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:49:25 -0800 From: Astrodog To: r@401.cx In-Reply-To: <420BCDA5.8020509@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2fd864e05021002332e78445c@mail.gmail.com> <420B9EC5.4030609@401.cx> <2fd864e0502101017159e9882@mail.gmail.com> <420BCDA5.8020509@401.cx> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Business Information. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:49:27 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:09:57 +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Astrodog wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:49:57 +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > > > >> I will support your efforts in any way I can, but since Im not much > >>of a marketing droid Im not really sure where to start. > >> Just put me down on the list of volunteers and I guess time will > >>tell how I can contribute. > >> > >>-- > >>R > > > > > > Thanks, will do. Though, technical information ought to be the basis > > for the marketing... err.. droidery, and if you have any "Sucess > > Story" type stuff, that'd be great. > > > > --- Harrison Grundy > > There is already a collection of success stories at > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5873, Im sure Dru will be more then > willing to let you use them. > > I have one idea of some sort of "what can FreeBSD do for you?" > section, where you could list stuff as "Install Squid and use it as a > proxy", "Setup ipfw and dummynet and it will be a trafficshaper", or > "With Sendmail and IMAP-UW it will provide you with all the email > services you'll ever need". Each example would contain some basic > instructions, links and examples of how to use it in such a role. > Everything nicely laid out in layman terms and with some simple images > and drawings showing BSD solving each particular problem. > I think it would be a good way to show how versatile and usefull > FreeBSD can be. > What do you think, is it worth putting some time into, or is it just a > bad idea? > > -- > R > > I like it. Make it a resource as well as a marketing thing. Since there haven't been any responses from people already doing this kinda thing, does anyone know what exactly needs to be done to request the "space" needed on the web server to start putting it together, or should I just resolve hosting on my own, or what? --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 14:53:17 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0997616A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:53:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59CBC43D3F for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:53:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so301862wra for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:53:15 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=WiG6kxlZBU9o5TFyO5HvLpMXYjeoGB641SbYEZ9JKxd8COkH98DfK0dEivxCOR2LsKoB0iywWH+iZYEFlywluo5ecyWeerlQvZPgk6n9lFKvm3wOiQm6utpVb+aSEuU/IEG6/Z272eiW6IYZMkWZu0FKNRGkFIeqM1E+Ux1FGgY= Received: by 10.54.41.64 with SMTP id o64mr38748wro; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:53:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e05021106537bdcff09@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:53:15 -0800 From: Astrodog To: "Devon H. O'Dell" In-Reply-To: <1108126229.4084.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1108126229.4084.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: freebsd.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:53:17 -0000 On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:50:29 +0100, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 12:41 +0000, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Julio Capote wrote: > > > > > I think that the entire point of an IT deptartment, is to provide that > > > "geek abstraction"; no CEO goes to www.linux.com and decides to go with > > > linux for thier infastructure. They ask thier IT deptartment to make > > > those decisions. On the same token, no small business owner/executive is > > > going to goto www.freebsd.com and download an iso and install it on all > > > thier servers based on some marketing hype. Sites like www.redhat.com > > > are an exception because they are indeed a commercial entity that sells > > > services/products based on Linux, Freebsd has no such entity. > > > > I don't know if I buy into "FreeBSD.com" or not, but I do buy into the > > idea that what we need to do is provide ammunition for IT departments that > > want to promote FreeBSD in their organization. I.e., white papers on > > FreeBSD as an effective solution, a professional front page that they can > > point at and say "Look, this is real", and material to help third party > > CDROM and support vendors provide FreeBSD support to their clients. The > > trick will be finding the right balance in not hiding the fact that one of > > the greatest assets of FreeBSD is that it's driven by developers who are > > also consumers, but provides help to people who want to sell FreeBSD as > > the professional product that it is. > > > > An idea that's been thrown around by a number of people at various points > > is to produce a set of short, professional-looking, white papers on > > FreeBSD use in various environments -- FreeBSD in the computation cluster, > > FreeBSD as an enterprise mail solution, FreeBSD for web clusters, FreeBSD > > as the foundation for an appliance, and so on. Something that an IT > > department can take to their director/etc saying "This is a recognized > > solution -- it works for these people, it will work for us". > > > > Robert N M Watson > > I'm actually busy with a couple of whitepapers for some of these subject > for work. I'll see if I can come up with a convincing layout and perhaps > if others contribute, we can get an officially endorsed site. > > We do need something to show that FreeBSD is a powerful tool in > commercial areas, and I agree that a site to show that is a good > solution. Especially if we have backing from the kind folk from the > FreeBSD core :) > > Kind regards, > > Devon H. O'Dell > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > I think we may be ending up with 2 groups looking at the same set of work. We have a thread going as "Business Information" on this very topic, somwhat. If you guys wouldn't mind, let me know your thoughts on where it seems to be going. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 16:58:50 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E283316A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:58:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98D2A43D49 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:58:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0903.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 5337B1C00186 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:58:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0903.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3409D1C0017B for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:58:49 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050211165849213.3409D1C0017B@mwinf0903.wanadoo.fr Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:58:48 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1607774471.20050211175848@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com> References: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:58:51 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn writes: > Based on the current discussions regarding a new freebsd logo and > continuing in the spirit of the mockups for a website redesign produced > during January, I created a mockup of a design that would go further > than the previous more conservative modifications and which includes a > new logo. > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1g.gif Nice. It still has that devilish look to it, which might cause a problem politically, but at least it's clean and simple and easy to print. The fine details on Beastie might be a problem at very small sizes. (It has occurred to me that a logo using only part of Beastie might be able to get around the small-detail problem.) The Web site format looks very nice, also. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 17:05:54 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 026EF16A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:05:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BED8643D39 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:05:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rax@rakhesh.com) X-Sasl-enc: ElqvqptA6WtaO1DiKfgeZQ 1108141551 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [82.178.87.175]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370DAC5737A; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:05:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <420CE63B.7090509@rakhesh.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:07:07 +0400 From: Rakhesh Sasidharan Organization: rakhesh.com User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com> In-Reply-To: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 02/11/2005), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:05:54 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > Based on the current discussions regarding a new freebsd logo and > continuing in the spirit of the mockups for a website redesign produced > during January, I created a mockup of a design that would go further > than the previous more conservative modifications and which includes a > new logo. > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1g.gif > > Cheers, Chris Nice. Pleasant colors, simple layout. :)) Just one point that struck me though -- the way the words "FreeBSD" are written on the top-left corner. "Free" and "BSD" separated like that. Dunno, gave me the feeling that a first-timer could get the impression this is about a BSD that is Free (money-wise). Just my 2cents. -- -Rakhesh rax -at- rakhesh -dot- com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 17:40:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B81A16A4CF for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:40:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA1C43D39 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:40:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j1BHG5Tr064590; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:16:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j1BHG5Lb064589; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:16:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:16:05 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: Chris Zumbrunn Message-ID: <20050211091604.B44537@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com>; from chris@czv.com on Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 02:46:46PM +0100 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:40:06 -0000 On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 02:46:46PM +0100, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > Based on the current discussions regarding a new freebsd logo and > continuing in the spirit of the mockups for a website redesign produced > during January, I created a mockup of a design that would go further > than the previous more conservative modifications and which includes a > new logo. > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1g.gif great work Chris!! > > Cheers, Chris > > chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 > Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ > Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 17:59:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B1616A4CE; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:59:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B6BD43D31; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:59:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:58:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <1607774471.20050211175848@wanadoo.fr> References: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com> <1607774471.20050211175848@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6b555740cb3a7ecaccae0039bbb6e23f@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:59:22 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:59:25 -0000 On Feb 11, 2005, at 5:58 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Nice. It still has that devilish look to it, which might cause a > problem politically, but at least it's clean and simple and easy to > print. :-) Generally, in the discussion so far, almost everybody jumped through the hoops to emphasize that the need for a new logo is based on the need for a clean professional look and printability (scaling and cost due to colors) - and not about the political correctness. > The fine details on Beastie might be a problem at very small > sizes. (It has occurred to me that a logo using only part of Beastie > might be able to get around the small-detail problem.) I redid our beloved beastie in a simplified way that eliminates this problem sufficiently. Take a look at the following example which is reduced to just 28x42 pixels! And this is on screen! - when printing, it is possible to go even smaller with this design without any trouble. No need to drop beastie as the freebsd logo for this reason: http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/minibeastie.gif Chris chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 18:25:31 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2BF16A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:25:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 181C943D31 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:25:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:24:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: <420CE63B.7090509@rakhesh.com> References: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com> <420CE63B.7090509@rakhesh.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <1c4c28d5cc6f041c3734c39c31bddecf@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:25:29 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:25:32 -0000 On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:07 PM, Rakhesh Sasidharan wrote: > Nice. Pleasant colors, simple layout. :)) > > Just one point that struck me though -- the way the words "FreeBSD" > are written on the top-left corner. "Free" and "BSD" separated like > that. Dunno, gave me the feeling that a first-timer could get the > impression this is about a BSD that is Free (money-wise). Just my > 2cents. This really is a drawback of the FreeBSD name - however you write it. You are just used to seeing FreeBSD so much that you do not notice it anymore. When somebody new to FreeBSD first reads "FreeBSD" for the first time, they have the exact same experience that you just had when you saw this new logo for the first time. I thought about this when I was designing it, too - and I'm convinced that the way FREE and BSD are both emphasized in different ways by this design is a good thing. Both interpretations of FREE are true, of course, so both are allowed. And BSD is also emphasized in an equal way, which communicates clearer that this is not Linux - that the roots and the philosophy of this project are based on BSD UNIX and the BSD license. Chris chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 18:33:07 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5D716A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:33:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B456443D2F for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:33:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jcapote@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so338780wra for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:33:06 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:subject:from:to:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; b=OaMwnYLqfFmF9g4HSdPHLFMQW+Zp5pc+7cSnx8gMlAXnNIi+FXciuny6/l9+dvzUzjXZs3uigWhPibqjK68k0IiFtTgAfRM4thtw3LOl75X6F9WOGSxNCSzWn5FkcwOK/utFqUs6ycEiNsKiMdtvPpsLphvcjVyx+SEHOYp3jGY= Received: by 10.54.41.50 with SMTP id o50mr49586wro; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([65.10.15.61]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTP id 65sm76311wra.2005.02.11.10.33.05; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:33:06 -0800 (PST) From: Julio Capote To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <2fd864e05021106537bdcff09@mail.gmail.com> References: <1108126229.4084.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2fd864e05021106537bdcff09@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:35:51 -0500 Message-Id: <1108146951.31338.10.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:33:07 -0000 www.spreadfreebsd.com? I think its a great example of that "IT Ammunition" someone mentioned that freebsd needed earlier. A website like www.spreadfirefox.com aims at targetting firefox to regular users that may not get the full "marketing dosage" from www.mozilla.org, so why not do the same for freebsd? www.spreadfreebsd.com could have a faq that would debunk alot of "Can FreeBSD run KDE?" or "Can I watch movies on FreeBSD?" type myths, also we could have some kickass screenshots, to show that FreeBSD can do anything Linux can do on the server end and the desktop. Even some success stories or testimonials. Overall the website would be aimed for people that are curious about freebsd but cant find what they are looking for in www.freebsd.org or #freebsd, What do you guys think? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 20:38:50 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6076F16A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:38:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web53602.mail.yahoo.com (web53602.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9298143D41 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:38:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scott@sremick.net) Received: (qmail 55289 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Feb 2005 20:38:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20050211203848.55287.qmail@web53602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.213.7.6] by web53602.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:38:48 PST X-RocketYMMF: siremick Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:38:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott I. Remick" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1108146951.31338.10.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: scott@sremick.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:38:50 -0000 --- Julio Capote wrote: > www.spreadfreebsd.com? > > I think its a great example of that "IT Ammunition" someone mentioned > that freebsd needed earlier. A website like www.spreadfirefox.com aims > at targetting firefox to regular users that may not get the full > "marketing dosage" from www.mozilla.org, so why not do the same for > freebsd? Except that's not really what www.spreadfirefox.com is. That site is aimed at the advocates themselves, as a meeting ground and community to exchange ideas on how to help spread the word. It'd not aimed at people who aren't interested in advocacy, let alone people who aren't Firefox users already. A better realworld example (which has been mentioned before) is www.sendmail.org vs. www.sendmail.com. I think that better reflects what people are suggesting for www.freebsd.com. My vote is to "keep it simple", stick with www.freebsd.com, and aim it at the not-so-geeky professional/commercial potential end-users. That said, even www.freebsd.org is in need of an overhaul. Not just in looks/fonts/layout, but in content. For example, http://www.freebsd.org/applications.html still touts the FreeBSD version of Netscape (which neither exists nor does the link provided) and the inclusion of XFree86. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 20:49:51 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92AF16A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:49:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D45B43D5A for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:49:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:49:14 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com> References: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <11a9ad5725904a54615565912b995665@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:49:47 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:49:51 -0000 On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:46 PM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > Based on the current discussions regarding a new freebsd logo and > continuing in the spirit of the mockups for a website redesign > produced during January, I created a mockup of a design that would go > further than the previous more conservative modifications and which > includes a new logo. > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1g.gif I got asked privately about why I decided to give beastie a romanesque nose instead of the original roundish nose. I thought maybe others are thinking the same question, so I'll share the explanation on the list anyway... When you create a silhouette of the "old beastie" you get a big cheek - but no nose. If you've never seen the full color beastie image before then that would look pretty silly. If I turn beastie's head so that you can see the nose then you see a rather big, very clearly visible nose. Because it would be clearly visible, you would notice that the horns are not placed in the correct perspective anymore (since the head has been turned) and changing the perspective of the horns would be a compromise I didn't want to make. Therefore, I tried to give the "new beastie" a nose that is there, but you only see it if you are looking for it - so, it doesn't disturb the perspective noticeably. /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 21:48:37 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1F6316A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:48:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpx.spintech.ro (smtpx.spintech.ro [81.181.24.231]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7467343D39 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:48:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from aanton@spintech.ro) Received: from smtpx.spintech.ro (antivirus [15.0.0.1]) by smtpx.spintech.ro (Postfix) with ESMTP id 018F03A53C for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:30:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (beastie [10.0.0.2]) by smtpx.spintech.ro (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32023A510 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:30:22 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <420D2837.8020702@spintech.ro> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:48:39 +0200 From: Alin-Adrian Anton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041229) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com> <420CE63B.7090509@rakhesh.com> <1c4c28d5cc6f041c3734c39c31bddecf@czv.com> In-Reply-To: <1c4c28d5cc6f041c3734c39c31bddecf@czv.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.5.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Open-Source: www.opensource.org Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:48:37 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:07 PM, Rakhesh Sasidharan wrote: > >> Nice. Pleasant colors, simple layout. :)) >> >> Just one point that struck me though -- the way the words "FreeBSD" >> are written on the top-left corner. "Free" and "BSD" separated like >> that. Dunno, gave me the feeling that a first-timer could get the >> impression this is about a BSD that is Free (money-wise). Just my 2cents. > > > This really is a drawback of the FreeBSD name - however you write it. > You are just used to seeing FreeBSD so much that you do not notice it > anymore. When somebody new to FreeBSD first reads "FreeBSD" for the > first time, they have the exact same experience that you just had when > you saw this new logo for the first time. > > I thought about this when I was designing it, too - and I'm convinced > that the way FREE and BSD are both emphasized in different ways by this > design is a good thing. Both interpretations of FREE are true, of > course, so both are allowed. And BSD is also emphasized in an equal way, > which communicates clearer that this is not Linux - that the roots and > the philosophy of this project are based on BSD UNIX and the BSD license. > > Chris Hi, Just some pseudo-random thoughts: When I looked at the "new logo" i first noticed FREE, then I noticed BSD. I asked myself where are the missing bars imprisoning the Berkley Software Daemon? FreeBSD is famous for it's jail mechanism. Unleash the Daemon :) Just a bit of humour, perhaps crap. Maybe it rings a bell to someone, if not, please forgive and ignore. :) The website looks pro. Yours Sincerely, -- Alin-Adrian Anton GPG keyID 0x183087BA (B129 E8F4 7B34 15A9 0785 2F7C 5823 ABA0 1830 87BA) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 0x183087BA "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." - Voltaire From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 22:26:07 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F22316A4CE for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:26:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8509443D1D for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:26:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id B2BE21C00081 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:26:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 8779A1C00085 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:26:05 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050211222605555.8779A1C00085@mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:26:05 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1935025570.20050211232605@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1108146951.31338.10.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn> References: <1108126229.4084.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2fd864e05021106537bdcff09@mail.gmail.com> <1108146951.31338.10.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:26:07 -0000 Julio Capote writes: > A website like www.spreadfirefox.com aims at targetting firefox to > regular users that may not get the full "marketing dosage" from > www.mozilla.org, so why not do the same for freebsd? Because FreeBSD is a server, not a desktop. The real market potential is on the server side. And if you want to convince large organizations to adopt FreeBSD as a server, you must not present it as a substitute for Windows desktops, a/k/a "regular users." > www.spreadfreebsd.com could have a faq that would debunk alot > of "Can FreeBSD run KDE?" or "Can I watch movies on FreeBSD?" type > myths ... There aren't likely to be any CIOs or CEOs or small-business owners asking such questions in the first place. Do you think companies like Yahoo are using FreeBSD to _watch movies_? > ... also we could have some kickass screenshots ... Nobody in serverland cares about screenshots. Screenshots are for games. > ... to show that FreeBSD can do anything Linux can do on the server > end and the desktop. Screenshots say _absolutely nothing_ about what an OS can do as a server. And FreeBSD is not any more suitable for the desktop than Linux (which is to say, it's hardly usable at all). One of the things you have to have clear in your mind when promoting an OS is exactly what market you want to reach. The server market in large organizations is diametrically opposed to the desktop market, and both are diametrically opposed to the consumer market. You can't court one without alienating the others. You can't have everything. You must decide which market you want. FreeBSD, like all UNIX operating systems (sorry, I should say UNIX(R)-like), shines as a server, not as a desktop, and even less as a consumer desktop. If you want to make the OS succeed, you pitch it to the market for which the OS is best suited ... and that is the server market. If you pitch the OS to the desktop and consumer markets, you can write-off the server market ... operating systems that seem to be desktop- or consumer-oriented make CIOs very nervous (and justifiably so). > Overall the website would be aimed > for people that are curious about freebsd but cant find what they are > looking for in www.freebsd.org or #freebsd, What do you guys think? I think www.freebsd.org already covers the geeks perfectly. If you build a separate site, there's no point in aiming it at those same geeks. You must target someone else. And hope that they don't see the geek site. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 11 22:27:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D38516A4CF for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:27:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A3043D1F for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:27:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7E44A1C0009B for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:27:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 63F601C0009A for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:27:22 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050211222722409.63F601C0009A@mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:27:22 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <811873941.20050211232722@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050211203848.55287.qmail@web53602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1108146951.31338.10.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn> <20050211203848.55287.qmail@web53602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:27:23 -0000 Scott I. Remick writes: > A better realworld example (which has been mentioned before) is > www.sendmail.org vs. www.sendmail.com. I think that better reflects what > people are suggesting for www.freebsd.com. Agreed! Although both sites actually aim at similar markets, since sendmail is not really something that anyone would use anywhere except on a server. (Nobody runs sendmail on a desktop, strictly speaking.) -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 00:43:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1510516A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:43:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C132043D31; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:43:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from [157.226.230.208] (port=1046 helo=mvaexch01.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CzlGB-0007W8-6A; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:35:43 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:27:21 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org'" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:00:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:43:43 -0000 From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > > Because FreeBSD is a server, not a desktop. Agree and disagree. While FreeBSD is well suited for the server, it's also well suited for the desktop. That doesn't mean that we should be stressing the desktop to those shopping for servers, instead it means that we shouldn't be telling those shopping for desktops to go use Linux instead. How many business will be running Linux on the desktop but FreeBSD on the server? None! Currently Windows rules the desktop world, even for diehard Unix shops. But that will not last forever. We need to start thinking about the desktop today. We need to stop the official discouragement of desktop FreeBSD. So how about a "www.serverfreebsd.com" and a "www.desktopfreebsd.com"? You get the best of both worlds that way. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 01:15:44 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8005C16A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:15:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from hobbiton.shire.net (hobbiton.shire.net [166.70.252.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4071443D2F; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:15:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chad@shire.net) Received: from [67.161.222.227] (helo=[192.168.99.68]) by hobbiton.shire.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1Czlsq-0002Ke-7Y; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:15:44 -0700 In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <918389C2-7C93-11D9-B134-000D933E3CEC@shire.net> From: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:15:22 -0700 To: Johnson David X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 67.161.222.227 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: chad@shire.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.0 (2004-09-13) on hobbiton.shire.net X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.0.0 X-Spam-Level: X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.1+cvs (built Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:44:05 -0700) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on hobbiton.shire.net) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:15:44 -0000 On Feb 11, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Johnson David wrote: > From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] >> >> Because FreeBSD is a server, not a desktop. > > Agree and disagree. While FreeBSD is well suited for the server, it's > also > well suited for the desktop. Anthony had the same misguided opinion in the Apache Users mailing list. > That doesn't mean that we should be stressing > the desktop to those shopping for servers, instead it means that we > shouldn't be telling those shopping for desktops to go use Linux > instead. > How many business will be running Linux on the desktop but FreeBSD on > the > server? None! But you will find lots of people with FreeBSD on the Server and OS X on the desktop! Not to say that you cannot run a FreeBSD desktop. And any efforts to make that easier are applauded. I used to run Linux on the desktop[1] and FreeBSD on the server. Setting up Linux as a desktop at the time (1990-2000 timeframe) was so much easier. I don't know about now, but with Linux (SuSE is what I used back then) it was as easy as setting up Windows. Chad [1] and Windows 2000 :-( and Mac OS 8/9 and Rhapsody and the beta for OS X From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 02:14:42 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F6C16A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:14:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from luzifer.incubus.de (incubus.de [80.237.207.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D6343D2F; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:14:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mkb@incubus.de) Received: from [192.168.2.10] (pD95429AD.dip.t-dialin.net [217.84.41.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by luzifer.incubus.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02A031FBC; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:14:35 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <420D669A.20000@incubus.de> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:14:50 +0100 From: Matthias Buelow User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (X11/20041124) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:14:42 -0000 Johnson David wrote: > Currently Windows rules the desktop world, even for diehard Unix shops. But > that will not last forever. We need to start thinking about the desktop > today. We need to stop the official discouragement of desktop FreeBSD. MacOS X is the "Desktop BSD". It is available today, and it works better than anything else at being a "desktop". Considering the sorry state of integrated "desktops" on Unix today (i.e., Gnome and KDE) and compare it with Windows, do you really think that will convince any Windows user? Windows really is bad enough already, why should they change for a much worse user interface. For those of us that have been using X11 with various window managers for the last decade or more, that isn't an issue -- we're used to a different way of working, but those Windows types expect quite different things, which they'll only find in MacOS, outside of Windows, for the forseeable future. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 02:20:41 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A202316A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:20:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2778A43D31 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:20:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0C2CA1C00083 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:20:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D5E581C00081 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:20:39 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050212022039876.D5E581C00081@mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:20:39 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <13116927.20050212032039@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:20:41 -0000 Johnson David writes: > Agree and disagree. While FreeBSD is well suited for the server, it's also > well suited for the desktop. That depends on the OS to which you compare it. In isolation, FreeBSD works on the desktop, just as most UNIX operating systems do, but in comparison to Windows or the Mac, it's a rather sorry excuse for a desktop. But no OS can do it all, no matter how religiously its proponents might believe otherwise. > That doesn't mean that we should be stressing the desktop to those > shopping for servers, instead it means that we shouldn't be telling > those shopping for desktops to go use Linux instead. Linux is a poor choice on the desktop, too. The realistic choices are Windows or the Mac; Windows has the edge between the two. I can't think of any objective reason to favor UNIX on the desktop for anything resembling a normal desktop environment (home or office). > How many business will be running Linux on the desktop but FreeBSD on > the server? None! Smart businesses won't be running Linux or any flavor of UNIX on the desktop. They may well be running UNIX on their servers, though, as UNIX has many advantages on servers. And FreeBSD (or any BSD, I should think) is preferable to Linux on a server. > Currently Windows rules the desktop world, even for diehard Unix > shops. But that will not last forever. There is no sign of a decline as yet. It's best not to attack markets in which one is hopelessly outclassed. It's irrational, a waste of resources, and doomed to failure. Let the Linux advocates knock themselves out; they won't succeed, either, and the time they waste on the desktop is time they cannot devote to servers, which gives FreeBSD advocacy an advantage. > We need to start thinking about the desktop today. We need to stop the > official discouragement of desktop FreeBSD. What official discouragement? Most FreeBSD fans seem to think it's a great desktop OS, despite evidence to the contrary. > So how about a "www.serverfreebsd.com" and a "www.desktopfreebsd.com"? You > get the best of both worlds that way. I suppose. But it's generally a mistake to try to promote an operating system as best for all purposes. Even Microsoft can't do that, although they certainly try (they are blinded by their love for Windows just as some FreeBSD users are blinded by their love for FreeBSD). It's a pity people can't be more objective and unemotional about their choice of operating systems, picking only the best tool for the job in each environment. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 02:24:31 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DF316A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:24:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65C343D31 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:24:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E358D1C00089 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:24:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C37041C00082 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:24:29 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050212022429800.C37041C00082@mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:24:29 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <13394413.20050212032429@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <918389C2-7C93-11D9-B134-000D933E3CEC@shire.net> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <918389C2-7C93-11D9-B134-000D933E3CEC@shire.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:24:31 -0000 Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes: > Anthony had the same misguided opinion in the Apache Users mailing > list. The market agrees with me. Look at market penetration for FreeBSD among servers, and among desktops, and you'll see. > But you will find lots of people with FreeBSD on the Server and OS X on > the desktop! OS X is a better choice for the desktop. UNIX itself is not an ideal choice, but Apple has modified the OS so much for desktop use that the UNIX underpinnings are effectively hidden for the most part. I predict that OS X will gradually mutate into something that isn't UNIX at all. That's what Apple really wants over the long term. They only built their system on top of UNIX because they couldn't afford to write a completely new OS of comparable quality from scratch (today, a new desktop OS is likely to be a multibillion-dollar investment). > Not to say that you cannot run a FreeBSD desktop. Of course you can, just as you can run an OS/2 or BeOS desktop. But why? > And any efforts to make that easier are applauded. Provided that efforts to make FreeBSD a better server do not suffer in consequence. Robbing Peter to pay Paul makes no sense. Microsoft did that, and now they have an OS that really isn't ideal for anything. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 03:16:29 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D3016A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:16:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6FD43D2D for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:16:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from [157.226.230.208] (port=4034 helo=mvaexch01.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CznlA-0003My-4w; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:15:52 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:07:30 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC'" Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:38:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:16:29 -0000 From: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC [mailto:chad@shire.net] > > Not to say that you cannot run a FreeBSD desktop. And any efforts to > make that easier are applauded. I used to run Linux on the desktop[1] > and FreeBSD on the server. Setting up Linux as a desktop at the time > (1990-2000 timeframe) was so much easier. I don't know about now, but > with Linux (SuSE is what I used back then) it was as easy as setting up > Windows. The suitability of a system for the desktop has only a little to do with installation and setup. If you're a newbie sitting at home without an administrator, then by all means stick with Mac OSX. But the desktop market is far bigger than the newbie sitting at home. You also have to consider the business desktop where you have sysadmins to do the installation and setup. If you can train an admin to configure X.org (which ain't that hard), then there's no reason you can't have FreeBSD and KDE/GNOME/WhateverDE on the business desktop. Other than mindshare, that is. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 03:28:13 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029D316A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:28:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from hobbiton.shire.net (hobbiton.shire.net [166.70.252.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E6E43D2D for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:28:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chad@shire.net) Received: from [67.161.222.227] (helo=[192.168.99.68]) by hobbiton.shire.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1Cznx6-000Cpv-5L; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:28:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <1F1DF2BC-7CA6-11D9-B134-000D933E3CEC@shire.net> From: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:28:11 -0700 To: Johnson David X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 67.161.222.227 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: chad@shire.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.0 (2004-09-13) on hobbiton.shire.net X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.0.0 X-Spam-Level: X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.1+cvs (built Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:44:05 -0700) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on hobbiton.shire.net) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:28:13 -0000 On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:38 PM, Johnson David wrote: > From: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC [mailto:chad@shire.net] > > > > Not to say that you cannot run a FreeBSD desktop.=A0 And any efforts=20= > to=A0 > > make that easier are applauded.=A0 I used to run Linux on the=20 > desktop[1] > > and FreeBSD on the server.=A0 Setting up Linux as a desktop at the = time > > (1990-2000 timeframe) was so much easier.=A0 I don't know about now,=20= > but > > with Linux (SuSE is what I used back then) it was as easy as setting=20= > up > > Windows. > > The suitability of a system for the desktop has only a little to do=20 > with installation and setup. If you're a newbie sitting at home=20 > without an administrator, then by all means stick with Mac OSX. No, I am an admin as well as a software developer and I use OS X=20 because it works, and works well. I am not bad mouthing using X (as in=20= X11) for desktops. It has its place. I personally have no use for an=20= X11 based desktop and my time is better spent doing other things. In=20 its current state, X11 based desktops require a certain amount of=20 caretaking and time spent to make it work, and even then, as a general=20= desktop, it does not work as well as OS X for the average user. For=20 certain people, though, it may be the better choice. > But the desktop market is far bigger than the newbie sitting at home.=20= > You also have to consider the business desktop where you have=20 > sysadmins to do the installation and setup. If you can train an admin=20= > to configure X.org (which ain't that hard), then there's no reason you=20= > can't have FreeBSD and KDE/GNOME/WhateverDE on the business desktop.=20= > Other than mindshare, that is. I am all for people working on FreeBSD as a desktop. The more=20 non-Windows desktops out there the better off we all are. cheers Chad From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 03:28:44 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EADE16A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:28:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-02-eri0.socal.rr.com (ms-smtp-02-qfe0.socal.rr.com [66.75.162.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3725B43D2F; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:28:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from hoe-waa@hawaii.rr.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (cpe-66-8-191-104.hawaii.rr.com [66.8.191.104])j1C3Se6V003768; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:28:41 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Marella To: Matthias Buelow In-Reply-To: <420D669A.20000@incubus.de> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <420D669A.20000@incubus.de> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:32:00 -1000 Message-Id: <1108179120.46376.27.camel@p4> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:28:44 -0000 On Sat, 2005-02-12 at 03:14 +0100, Matthias Buelow wrote: > Johnson David wrote: > > > Currently Windows rules the desktop world, even for diehard Unix shops. But > > that will not last forever. We need to start thinking about the desktop > > today. We need to stop the official discouragement of desktop FreeBSD. > > MacOS X is the "Desktop BSD". It is available today, and it works > better than anything else at being a "desktop". Does it work on my intel hardware? Robert From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 03:30:51 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BCCB16A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:30:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from hobbiton.shire.net (hobbiton.shire.net [166.70.252.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18B2443D1D; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:30:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chad@shire.net) Received: from [67.161.222.227] (helo=[192.168.99.68]) by hobbiton.shire.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1Cznze-000DPy-Of; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:30:50 -0700 In-Reply-To: <1108179120.46376.27.camel@p4> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <420D669A.20000@incubus.de> <1108179120.46376.27.camel@p4> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <7D9CA83A-7CA6-11D9-B134-000D933E3CEC@shire.net> From: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:30:49 -0700 To: Robert Marella X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 67.161.222.227 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: chad@shire.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.0 (2004-09-13) on hobbiton.shire.net X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.0.0 X-Spam-Level: X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.1+cvs (built Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:44:05 -0700) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on hobbiton.shire.net) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: 'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org' Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:30:51 -0000 On Feb 11, 2005, at 8:32 PM, Robert Marella wrote: > On Sat, 2005-02-12 at 03:14 +0100, Matthias Buelow wrote: >> Johnson David wrote: >> >>> Currently Windows rules the desktop world, even for diehard Unix >>> shops. But >>> that will not last forever. We need to start thinking about the >>> desktop >>> today. We need to stop the official discouragement of desktop >>> FreeBSD. >> >> MacOS X is the "Desktop BSD". It is available today, and it works >> better than anything else at being a "desktop". > > Does it work on my intel hardware? Not in public it doesn't. That is irrelevant to the discussion. FreeBSD does not work on my PPC HW either. Chad From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 03:34:14 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA98516A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:34:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from luzifer.incubus.de (incubus.de [80.237.207.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB90A43D45; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:34:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mkb@incubus.de) Received: from [192.168.2.10] (pD95429AD.dip.t-dialin.net [217.84.41.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by luzifer.incubus.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A32E31FBC; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 04:34:07 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <420D7939.6000909@incubus.de> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 04:34:17 +0100 From: Matthias Buelow User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (X11/20041124) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Marella References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <420D669A.20000@incubus.de> <1108179120.46376.27.camel@p4> In-Reply-To: <1108179120.46376.27.camel@p4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:34:15 -0000 Robert Marella wrote: >>MacOS X is the "Desktop BSD". It is available today, and it works >>better than anything else at being a "desktop". > Does it work on my intel hardware? And your point is..? mkb. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 03:52:36 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8A316A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:52:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C42E43D1D for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:52:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 04:51:58 +0100 In-Reply-To: <420D2837.8020702@spintech.ro> References: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com><420CE63B.7090509@rakhesh.com> <1c4c28d5cc6f041c3734c39c31bddecf@czv.com> <420D2837.8020702@spintech.ro> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <22dcf988fa0748293ca20ae481315670@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 04:52:32 +0100 To: Alin-Adrian Anton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:52:36 -0000 On Feb 11, 2005, at 10:48 PM, Alin-Adrian Anton wrote: > When I looked at the "new logo" i first noticed FREE, then I noticed > BSD. I asked myself where are the missing bars imprisoning the Berkley > Software Daemon? > FreeBSD is famous for it's jail mechanism. > Unleash the Daemon :) Maybe we should rename the project to FreedBSD ;-) /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 03:52:57 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB8016A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:52:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D58243D39 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:52:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C6C1B1C00092 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 04:52:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A9AA11C0008E for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 04:52:56 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050212035256695.A9AA11C0008E@mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 04:52:56 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <125041881.20050212045256@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:52:57 -0000 Johnson David writes: > The suitability of a system for the desktop has only a little to do with > installation and setup. If you're a newbie sitting at home without an > administrator, then by all means stick with Mac OSX. But the desktop market > is far bigger than the newbie sitting at home. You also have to consider the > business desktop where you have sysadmins to do the installation and setup. > If you can train an admin to configure X.org (which ain't that hard), then > there's no reason you can't have FreeBSD and KDE/GNOME/WhateverDE on the > business desktop. Other than mindshare, that is. To advocate FreeBSD, you must explain why FreeBSD is preferable to other operating systems. It is not sufficient to say that there is no reason why someone _cannot_ put FreeBSD on the desktop. The latter response means that you'll be thanked for your time, and the Microsoft salesperson will be shown into the conference room. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 03:58:13 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBA216A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:58:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.socal.rr.com (ms-smtp-03-qfe0.socal.rr.com [66.75.162.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0692943D45; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:58:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from hoe-waa@hawaii.rr.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (cpe-66-8-191-104.hawaii.rr.com [66.8.191.104])j1C3w9uY003534; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:58:09 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Marella To: Matthias Buelow In-Reply-To: <420D7939.6000909@incubus.de> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <420D669A.20000@incubus.de> <1108179120.46376.27.camel@p4> <420D7939.6000909@incubus.de> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:01:26 -1000 Message-Id: <1108180886.46376.41.camel@p4> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 03:58:13 -0000 On Sat, 2005-02-12 at 04:34 +0100, Matthias Buelow wrote: > Robert Marella wrote: > > >>MacOS X is the "Desktop BSD". It is available today, and it works > >>better than anything else at being a "desktop". > > Does it work on my intel hardware? > > And your point is..? > > mkb. Market share! What percentage of the desktops are intel/AMD based? If MacOS X is _THE_ Desktop BSD, can it be ported/converted to the majority of the installed desktops? If not, can someone/some_company/some_group do to intel/AMD desktops what Apple did to MacOS X? I know the driving force of FreeBSD is toward servers. Apple was able to make it a desktop OS. I like it as a desktop OS on my intel hardware but I have a lot of time to spend. Even with the time, I still can't get everything to work as I would like. If it was a better desktop OS more people would notice it and would recognize the name FreeBSD. When I tell most people that I do not use MS Windows, I get a blank look and then they ask what I do use. I usually say I use a form of UNIX called FreeBSD. The first thing out of their mouth is, "Oh, Linux!". I then go on to tell them about FreeBSD as their eyes glaze over. That's my point! Robert From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 05:05:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4AC16A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:05:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20D343D31; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:05:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1CzpTQ-0000jd-00; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:05:40 -0800 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:05:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <13116927.20050212032039@wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:05:49 -0000 On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > That depends on the OS to which you compare it. In isolation, FreeBSD > works on the desktop, just as most UNIX operating systems do, but in > comparison to Windows or the Mac, it's a rather sorry excuse for a > desktop. But no OS can do it all, no matter how religiously its > proponents might believe otherwise. I guess this depends on how "desktop" is defined. Being able to run a desktop for over a hundred days without reboots, without annoying continuous software failures, without worry of malicious (or anoying) pop-ups, virus, and malware, and being able to quickly do my desktop work is a good reason to use an open source Unix desktop. I guess Mac OS X can meet these goals. But can't meet the need to be able to use a good functional desktop on old, out-dated, slow hardware. (Nevertheless, it is not time to advertise FreeBSD as a "desktop" alternative.) Jeremy C. Reed BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 05:07:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA32116A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:07:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from beck.quonix.net (beck.quonix.net [146.145.66.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE8043D5C for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:07:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from john@essenz.com) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (pool-68-162-65-111.phil.east.verizon.net [68.162.65.111]) by beck.quonix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1C57Khc093805 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:07:20 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <22dcf988fa0748293ca20ae481315670@czv.com> References: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com><420CE63B.7090509@rakhesh.com> <1c4c28d5cc6f041c3734c39c31bddecf@czv.com> <420D2837.8020702@spintech.ro> <22dcf988fa0748293ca20ae481315670@czv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Von Essen Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:06:50 -0500 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-SpamAssassin-3.0.1-Score: 0/6 X-MimeDefang-2.48: beck.quonix.net X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 146.145.66.90 Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:07:27 -0000 This is going to be a blast from the past, but... What was the deal with the renaming that was going on in early 2000 when version 4.0 came out. Up until then, all the CD's said "FreeBSD" then Walnut creek. The 4.0 CD set still said FreeBSD, but at the bottom of the CD graphic and jewel case cover, it just said "BSD". The CD itself said BSD, Inc. What was that all about? Does the FreeBSD org own the rights to using just the short name of "BSD" when doing promotions? Everyone on this list obviously loves FreeBSD, but how many have been in a position at a company, where your uncomfortable talking about the name of your core OS. People dont think twice about putting together a proposal for management/clients and slapping the term Solaris or Linux around. But if you put "FreeBSD" in that visio or ppt, your boss will have kittens. When I was at Aetna, I converted a mail cluster from Linux to FreeBSD (for performance and security reasons of course). The only reason why I was able to do it was because I didn't tell anyone or document it on our asset lists! I'm just stating the obvious. -john On Feb 11, 2005, at 10:52 PM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > On Feb 11, 2005, at 10:48 PM, Alin-Adrian Anton wrote: > >> When I looked at the "new logo" i first noticed FREE, then I noticed >> BSD. I asked myself where are the missing bars imprisoning the >> Berkley Software Daemon? >> FreeBSD is famous for it's jail mechanism. >> Unleash the Daemon :) > > Maybe we should rename the project to FreedBSD ;-) > > /czv > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 05:42:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6968A16A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:42:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EADCD43D2D for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:42:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1Czq2M-0000lW-00; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:41:46 -0800 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:41:46 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: John Von Essen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:42:23 -0000 On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, John Von Essen wrote: > Up until then, all the CD's said "FreeBSD" then Walnut creek. The 4.0 > CD set still said FreeBSD, but at the bottom of the CD graphic and > jewel case cover, it just said "BSD". The CD itself said BSD, Inc. > > What was that all about? Those are outside companies that provide financial assistance to FreeBSD and profit from FreeBSD. (Well, BSDi only temporarily.) Around five years ago, Walnut Creek merged with BSDI. Here is an old article: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/03/09/0711253 Google will turn up articles about it too. (I wrote about it too, but the news site then is now dead -- BSD Today.) > Does the FreeBSD org own the rights to using just the short name of > "BSD" when doing promotions? No, they don't own the rights. They just use it. Jeremy C. Reed BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 08:04:16 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC7116A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:04:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ACECD43D39 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:04:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:03:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <319a1266ff9acf8bca91c632708e358c@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:04:14 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:04:16 -0000 On Feb 12, 2005, at 6:41 AM, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > Those are outside companies that provide financial assistance to > FreeBSD > and profit from FreeBSD. (Well, BSDi only temporarily.) Around five > years > ago, Walnut Creek merged with BSDI. ...and the BSD/OS was later sold to Windriver, which recently stopped supporting it. Maybe they would donate the BSD/OS name to the FreeBSD foundation? /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 09:41:54 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0585116A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:41:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ew.co.za (g2.endorphinweb.co.za [196.41.15.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0531B43D48; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:41:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fbsdlists@mnet-online.de) X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by EW virus scanning services (www.ew.co.za) Received: from [62.245.241.142] (unverified [62.245.241.142]) by ew.co.za (SurgeMail 2.2c10) with ESMTP id 18204 for multiple; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:41:30 +0200 In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <2813D6A9-7CDA-11D9-8FA0-000A95D5F764@mnet-online.de> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Stephan Lichtenauer Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:40:40 +0100 To: Johnson David X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com X-Authenticated-User: s01@lichtenauer.co.za cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: "'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:41:54 -0000 Am 12.02.2005 um 00:00 schrieb Johnson David: > From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] >> >> Because FreeBSD is a server, not a desktop. > > Agree and disagree. While FreeBSD is well suited for the server, it's > also > well suited for the desktop. That doesn't mean that we should be > stressing > the desktop to those shopping for servers, instead it means that we > shouldn't be telling those shopping for desktops to go use Linux > instead. > How many business will be running Linux on the desktop but FreeBSD on > the > server? None! > > Currently Windows rules the desktop world, even for diehard Unix > shops. But > that will not last forever. We need to start thinking about the desktop > today. We need to stop the official discouragement of desktop FreeBSD. > I agree with you, David, that although FreeBSD is primarily a server OS right now the desktop should not be forgotten. > So how about a "www.serverfreebsd.com" and a "www.desktopfreebsd.com"? > You > get the best of both worlds that way. I would not make completely separate sites. Maybe IMHO make two separate big areas you can choose on the start page of the website but make one entry point so people immediately can see that FreeBSD can be used for both. Alternatively one could make links from the single freebsd.com (or whatever its name will be) to these two sites you propose. Stephan From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 09:47:51 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA28816A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:47:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC9943D48 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:47:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3B6B81C0008F for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:47:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0143E1C0008B for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:47:49 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050212094750528.0143E1C0008B@mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:47:49 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1327176360.20050212104749@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <13116927.20050212032039@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:47:52 -0000 Jeremy C. Reed writes: > Being able to run a desktop for over a hundred days without reboots, > without annoying continuous software failures, without worry of malicious > (or anoying) pop-ups, virus, and malware, and being able to quickly do my > desktop work is a good reason to use an open source Unix desktop. Except that Windows does all of this. My XP and NT desktops will run until I reboot them, which often means months at a time. If I chose not to reboot them, they'd run for years (the NT code base is extremely stable). I haven't experienced any annoying software failures under Windows. I have no problems with pop-ups, viruses, or malware. The only virus I've ever experienced was an Apache virus on my FreeBSD machine, ironically, and that was because the Apache server had a bug and the server _must_ service ports that are open to the world (there's nothing I can do to protect the system in such a case). Windows viruses and other problems can be avoided by firewalls and safe computing; it isn't even necessary to run an antivirus product. Time between boots is similar for both the Windows and FreeBSD systems, but neither system actually requires a boot at such frequent intervals. I usually boot FreeBSD when I have to power-cycle the hardware, or when I make a change that is exposed at boot time and I wish to make sure that the system actually will boot (such as a change in rc.conf). A common reason for booting is installation of software on both platforms; FreeBSD doesn't require it, but I boot anyway to make sure nothing in the boot process has been misconfigured, and many Windows applications insist on it, even though the OS itself does not. > I guess Mac OS X can meet these goals. Absolutely. If you really want a desktop UNIX, go with Mac OS X. > But can't meet the need to be able to use a good functional desktop on > old, out-dated, slow hardware. True. In that case, run Linux. Linux is more desktop-oriented--to its own detriment, because it will almost certainly never make a dent in Windows and Mac user bases, and desktop orientation can only be carried out at the expense of server orientation. (If there were no people who hated Microsoft, Linux would never be more than a laboratory curiosity, because those are the only people who can force themselves to run it on the desktop). > Nevertheless, it is not time to advertise FreeBSD as a "desktop" > alternative. I agree. Build on strengths, not weaknesses. The Linux community is making the mistake of promoting Linux in exactly the domain where it is most likely to be a permanent failure. FreeBSD should not make that same mistake. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 09:51:24 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E47716A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:51:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB15F43D3F for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:51:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2ACFA1C0009D for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:51:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 07CEE1C00097 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:51:22 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050212095123320.07CEE1C00097@mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:51:22 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1094909310.20050212105122@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com><420CE63B.7090509@rakhesh.com> <1c4c28d5cc6f041c3734c39c31bddecf@czv.com> <420D2837.8020702@spintech.ro> <22dcf988fa0748293ca20ae481315670@czv.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:51:24 -0000 John Von Essen writes: > Everyone on this list obviously loves FreeBSD, but how many have been > in a position at a company, where your uncomfortable talking about the > name of your core OS. People dont think twice about putting together a > proposal for management/clients and slapping the term Solaris or Linux > around. But if you put "FreeBSD" in that visio or ppt, your boss will > have kittens. When I was at Aetna, I converted a mail cluster from > Linux to FreeBSD (for performance and security reasons of course). The > only reason why I was able to do it was because I didn't tell anyone or > document it on our asset lists! You could refer to FreeBSD vaguely as "open-source UNIX." UNIX is trademarked so you have to be careful, but were it not for this legal detail, it would indeed be UNIX (I don't know how anyone managed to trademark UNIX, anyway). And referring to it that way sounds less unsettling than calling it "FreeBSD," which sounds like something slapped together cheaply by some college students. The first time I encountered FreeBSD I didn't look into it precisely because of the name. There are zillions of free software products out there, and this sounded like just another one. But my web-hosting company was using FreeBSD for hosting, and after years of seeing FreeBSD run rock solid without even a single boot, I realized that it was serious software, no matter what it was called. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 13:25:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8680D16A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:25:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from whitehall.lin-tech.net (whitehall.lin-tech.net [66.118.35.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C77843D4C for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:25:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bob@buckhorn.net) Received: from [72.26.11.120] (lfkn-adsl-dhcp-72-26-11-120.consolidated.net [72.26.11.120]) by whitehall.lin-tech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 910982501D for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:25:08 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420E03B2.2070703@buckhorn.net> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:25:06 -0600 From: Bob Martin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8a5) Gecko/20041214 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <3eb7abf62bd14b74a7ce8eaa32f31efb@czv.com><420CE63B.7090509@rakhesh.com> <1c4c28d5cc6f041c3734c39c31bddecf@czv.com> <420D2837.8020702@spintech.ro> <22dcf988fa0748293ca20ae481315670@czv.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at spamcontrol Subject: Re: New FreeBSD logo and website design X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:25:18 -0000 A rose, by any other name.... I'm doing my best to convince everyone in Texas to run FreeBSD. (It's slow going!) Generally speaking, I don't run into "name" problems, but it does happen, and the reaction is about what's been posted to the list of late. To paraphase a comment in a meeting, "Pepsi Free is Pepsi with all the good stuff taken out. Is that what BSD Free is?" You have to know your audiance. If they are clueless, just tell them that FreeBSD is an open source decendant of the UNIX sold by the University of California at Berkeley. When they ask, tell them that UC Berkeley stopped selling UNIX in the early 90's because of a law suit. If they have a clue, a visit to Netcraft is in order. The names of the big sites like Yahoo that run FreeBSD will get their attention. The top 100 uptime will keep it. The fact that Redmond likes us will help too. And when all else fails, just call it 'BSD :-) Bob Martin John Von Essen wrote: > This is going to be a blast from the past, but... > > What was the deal with the renaming that was going on in early 2000 when > version 4.0 came out. > > Up until then, all the CD's said "FreeBSD" then Walnut creek. The 4.0 CD > set still said FreeBSD, but at the bottom of the CD graphic and jewel > case cover, it just said "BSD". The CD itself said BSD, Inc. > > What was that all about? Does the FreeBSD org own the rights to using > just the short name of "BSD" when doing promotions? > > Everyone on this list obviously loves FreeBSD, but how many have been in > a position at a company, where your uncomfortable talking about the name > of your core OS. People dont think twice about putting together a > proposal for management/clients and slapping the term Solaris or Linux > around. But if you put "FreeBSD" in that visio or ppt, your boss will > have kittens. When I was at Aetna, I converted a mail cluster from Linux > to FreeBSD (for performance and security reasons of course). The only > reason why I was able to do it was because I didn't tell anyone or > document it on our asset lists! > > I'm just stating the obvious. > -john > > > > > > On Feb 11, 2005, at 10:52 PM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > >> >> On Feb 11, 2005, at 10:48 PM, Alin-Adrian Anton wrote: >> >>> When I looked at the "new logo" i first noticed FREE, then I >>> noticed BSD. I asked myself where are the missing bars imprisoning >>> the Berkley Software Daemon? >>> FreeBSD is famous for it's jail mechanism. >>> Unleash the Daemon :) >> >> >> Maybe we should rename the project to FreedBSD ;-) >> >> /czv >> >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 14:36:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FE9916A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:36:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from luzifer.incubus.de (incubus.de [80.237.207.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F9DF43D41; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:36:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mkb@incubus.de) Received: from [192.168.2.10] (pD954260D.dip.t-dialin.net [217.84.38.13]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by luzifer.incubus.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A18432274; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:36:43 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <420E148D.1070306@incubus.de> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:37:01 +0100 From: Matthias Buelow User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (X11/20041124) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:36:52 -0000 Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > (Nevertheless, it is not time to advertise FreeBSD as a "desktop" > alternative.) This is not so much about FreeBSD, as the Unix+X11 combination in general. It does not provide the fully integrated system the typical end-user, coming from a Windows or Mac perspective, expects. That it nevertheless works well enough for persons with a technical or academical background, and those who invest some time, is not questioned. What the Unix+X11 combination in its current blend doesn't provide is the one-size-fits-all solution that Windows and the Mac try to achieve. That's both a good and a bad thing, imho. There are, of course, situations where Unix is being used as a "desktop" successfully. Think about Unix workstations at universities and larger companies, which have been prevalent for the last 15 years. Or the city administration of Munich, which intends to move its Windows desktops to a Linux/KDE-based installation. What these applications have in common is, that the desktop user is normally different from the person maintaining the installation. This is different from a SOHO setup, where both are normally identical. mkb. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 15:57:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB3516A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:57:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E9F443D2D; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:57:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1CFvqos033432; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:57:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <420E27DD.1090200@401.cx> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:59:25 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <1108146951.31338.10.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn> <20050211203848.55287.qmail@web53602.mail.yahoo.com> <811873941.20050211232722@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <811873941.20050211232722@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:57:56 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Scott I. Remick writes: > >>A better realworld example (which has been mentioned before) is >>www.sendmail.org vs. www.sendmail.com. I think that better reflects what >>people are suggesting for www.freebsd.com. > > > Agreed! Although both sites actually aim at similar markets, since > sendmail is not really something that anyone would use anywhere except > on a server. (Nobody runs sendmail on a desktop, strictly speaking.) > They both aim at exactly the same market, but different personalities. While sendmail.org aims at the more technical people, usually the ones that will actually run the software, sendmail.com aims for the directors, the ones that make the decision to run it. Our current freebsd.org website is perfect for the first category, but believe me, it scares the shit out of the higher management kind of people. Argue all you want that people like that should not be allowed to make such decisions, I've seen it happen and Im sure it happens all the time. So far, I have not seen one single valid argument against a freebsd.com website or a new logo, so I side with the people that wants some changes to happen in this one. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 16:27:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BCFA16A4E8; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:27:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440D643D31; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:27:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:27:22 -0600 Message-ID: <420E2E68.3050005@daleco.biz> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:27:20 -0600 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <13116927.20050212032039@wanadoo.fr> <1327176360.20050212104749@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <1327176360.20050212104749@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Feb 2005 16:27:22.0828 (UTC) FILETIME=[BAF628C0:01C5111F] cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:27:27 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: >Jeremy C. Reed writes: > > >>Being able to run a desktop for over a hundred days without reboots, >>without annoying continuous software failures, without worry of malicious >>(or anoying) pop-ups, virus, and malware, and being able to quickly do my >>desktop work is a good reason to use an open source Unix desktop. >> >> > >Except that Windows does all of this. My XP and NT desktops will run >until I reboot them, which often means months at a time. If I chose not >to reboot them, they'd run for years (the NT code base is extremely >stable). > >I haven't experienced any annoying software failures under Windows. > >I have no problems with pop-ups, viruses, or malware. The only virus >I've ever experienced was an Apache virus on my FreeBSD machine, >ironically, and that was because the Apache server had a bug and the >server _must_ service ports that are open to the world (there's nothing >I can do to protect the system in such a case). Windows viruses and >other problems can be avoided by firewalls and safe computing; it isn't >even necessary to run an antivirus product. > >Time between boots is similar for both the Windows and FreeBSD systems, >but neither system actually requires a boot at such frequent intervals. >I usually boot FreeBSD when I have to power-cycle the hardware, or when >I make a change that is exposed at boot time and I wish to make sure >that the system actually will boot (such as a change in rc.conf). A >common reason for booting is installation of software on both platforms; >FreeBSD doesn't require it, but I boot anyway to make sure nothing in >the boot process has been misconfigured, and many Windows applications >insist on it, even though the OS itself does not. > > I'm guessing *you* are atypical in this. Most of our Windows boxes are rather stable. But our FreeBSD ones are simply rocks. It's true I can't just "pointy clicky" them into a usable configuration, but the software runs for as long as we wish. That is in a rather direct opposition to the majority of our on-site service calls for clients, which generally have to do with troubleshooting software issues on Windows boxes related to "annoying software failures", and "pop-ups, viruses, and malware". And reboots with Win XP are probably about 1/3 lower (guesstimate) than they were with the 9x products. But, there were *many* back then. The other day we gained a client who had been sold a rather new M$ Server product. It was set up to be their PDC, but there were some issues. One of these issues was that the NIC it was connected to the network with was set to use DHCP We reconfigured the interface, and, true to form, "You must reboot your computer for the changes to take effect." I would argue that you are not Joe User, because this is not necessarily his experience, even with "XP". Nor "Jane User" either. Newer Microsoft products are more stable than their predecessors, but there is no comparison between them and the stability and security of FreeBSD in our experience. The fact that Windows XP is more stable than their previous products is known, but another chunk of evidence indicates that issues with that OS, as Jeremy described, are still well in evidence. There are thousands upon thousands times thousands of relatively clueless users out there who do have problems with Windows whether they know it or not. For my office, a FreeBSD desktop makes a good bit of sense. I don't have major software issues with FreeBSD, and my unit cost is a hundred bucks or more less than a Windows desktop. But, in that, *we* are atypical, I suppose. Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 16:41:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE3E16A4CF for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:41:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web50801.mail.yahoo.com (web50801.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.110]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 16BBB43D45 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:41:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dereckhaskins@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 92188 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Feb 2005 16:41:48 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=WJVD3ihrpTxv7IvaegL6/kRqvGEiTZzGOcsopQYt8GG4g9mS5GNf9Ra6hF9L2iK+oOB24ZhlQ5PeRKihvoYbah/SxUCpQgz2zTOX21kjdvRV8uW97STtOftLreZFUC89jff8UWBjBiy4gaue+d10SkGa5NMI8HiWhzo84PJTiOA= ; Message-ID: <20050212164148.92186.qmail@web50801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.65.216.138] by web50801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:41:48 PST Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:41:48 -0800 (PST) From: dereck To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420E27DD.1090200@401.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:41:49 -0000 > So far, I have not seen one single valid argument > against a > freebsd.com website or a new logo, so I side with > the people that > wants some changes to happen in this one. > I'm with Roger here. It is time for a change, and perhaps a smaller, but "business friendly" image on the MAIN site. The website as it is is much too busy and confusing. Actually, I would not mind moving the current website over to "freebsd_tech_user" or something that clearly targets BSD technical users. But I work for a medium-sized, proprietary software company. I would _NEVER_ send even competent WIN32 people to the current FreeBSD site for them to evaluate the OS - the confusing structure and "face" of the site is sure to turn them off. Even asking "basic" questions in the Search function doesn't work cleanly - instead hundreds of manual links are returned. A clear and short "Who is using it" and "Why it would help YOUR business" page would be better than what we have now. I just don't understand the arguments of those who don't want change here. Is this not a question of "survival" in some sense? OBSD went through a logo change some time ago, and I would argue that this change was very successful. We've (IMHO) got to get the businesses who are looking at Open Source to consider FreeBSD. This means making the website "friendly." This is simply so they'll move to the next logical step to ask "who is using it already?". And this is getting critical, people - Sun is making SOLARIS free and will release the OS for _anyone_ to use in coming weeks. In the case of "OpenSolaris" a business doesn't even have to ask that "next question", as millions of computers run Solaris worldwide - Wall Street brokerages use it everywhere, and MLB.com uses it prominently, to name a couple of examples. The heart of the matter is whether we will continue to target the uber-geeks of the world and be happy with a tiny niche, or whether we will make FreeBSD what it should be - _the_ standard against which other *NIX OS clones measure themselves. Appearances do matter in this case, and the current website should be moved over to target the few of us who are already committed. My 2 cents. dereck From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 16:55:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6BF16A536 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:55:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.180]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6129943D45 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:55:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cmc3list-bsd@yahoo.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.102?) (cmc2goat@swbell.net@64.123.15.185 with plain) by smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Feb 2005 16:55:27 -0000 Message-ID: <420E3577.6080106@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:57:27 -0600 From: Chris Conn User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041208) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <13116927.20050212032039@wanadoo.fr> <1327176360.20050212104749@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <1327176360.20050212104749@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:55:27 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > I agree. Build on strengths, not weaknesses. The Linux community is > making the mistake of promoting Linux in exactly the domain where it is > most likely to be a permanent failure. FreeBSD should not make that > same mistake. In the world I work in (AIX Technical Support) we use Windows as a desktop and most of our customers do too, of course our AIX boxes are the servers. We all connect with some kind of PC emulator, usually Exceed and lately VNC is gaining popularity. CDE is the official desktop for AIX but it's old. They're adding support for GNOME and KDE, not sure how popular they will be. At home I have a Slackware Linux box and a FreeBSD box and run Window Maker as a desktop on both of them and they work great (these are hobby and educational boxes for me) and the only time I wish I could have some of the benefits of Windows is when I want to watch Apple Movie Trailers, can only watch them on Windows. Otherwise FreeBSD does everything I want a desktop to do (same with Slackware). I use FreeBSD more often because it's my standalone box and it's faster. I do agree that Linux is competing in the wrong area, why try to compete in the desktop area when the strength of Unix (and Linux) is in the server area? But hey that's the direction they've chosen, more cool utilities for us :-). -- Chris Conn http://www.whee.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-users Austin, Texas, USA From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 17:03:42 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC95516A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:03:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A350143D46; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:03:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:03:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <420E27DD.1090200@401.cx> References: <1108146951.31338.10.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn><20050211203848.55287.qmail@web53602.mail.yahoo.com><811873941.20050211232722@wanadoo.fr> <420E27DD.1090200@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <32e1e7d9032b18f1fc7559f664a536ba@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:03:40 +0100 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:03:42 -0000 On Feb 12, 2005, at 4:59 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > So far, I have not seen one single valid argument against a > freebsd.com website or a new logo, so I side with the people that > wants some changes to happen in this one. Well, if you put it that bluntly, let me disagree with you :-) If you look at the current freebsd.org website, you see a logo on top, a navigation bar on the left, news on the right and a large area in the middle that is reserved exclusively for advocacy content. There is nothing wrong with that concept and it can serve well as the main web page for both those that serve on a board of directors and those that are bored of directors. Yes, the design needs a face lift. That can be done without compromising usability. Yes, the navigation could be streamlined and should list sections such as white papers, success stories and solution guides. That stuff just needs to be produced! Without that it exists you can't link to it from the front page. Yes, the news should be more frequent and comprehensive. You can't report what isn't happening. More should be written about FreeBSD and links to new articles should be collected and updated daily. Yes, the advocacy content should be much more exciting and professional. There is a large need for lots of high quality advocacy content including white papers, statistics, market research, graphics, success stories, business cases, etc. All that "just" needs to be produced. None of the above will get accomplished by splitting the site in two. All of the above needs to be done either way. Changing the design of freebsd.org/freebsd.com is easy. The hard work is creating all the content that needs to go behind it. Cheers, Chris chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 17:24:45 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D9C16A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:24:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F2C43D2F; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:24:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1CHOfJm035965; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:24:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <420E3C36.3030601@401.cx> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:26:14 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <1108146951.31338.10.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn><20050211203848.55287.qmail@web53602.mail.yahoo.com><811873941.20050211232722@wanadoo.fr> <420E27DD.1090200@401.cx> <32e1e7d9032b18f1fc7559f664a536ba@czv.com> In-Reply-To: <32e1e7d9032b18f1fc7559f664a536ba@czv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:24:45 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > On Feb 12, 2005, at 4:59 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >> So far, I have not seen one single valid argument against a >> freebsd.com website or a new logo, so I side with the people that >> wants some changes to happen in this one. > > > Well, if you put it that bluntly, let me disagree with you :-) > > If you look at the current freebsd.org website, you see a logo on top, a > navigation bar on the left, news on the right and a large area in the > middle that is reserved exclusively for advocacy content. There is > nothing wrong with that concept and it can serve well as the main web > page for both those that serve on a board of directors and those that > are bored of directors. > > Yes, the design needs a face lift. That can be done without compromising > usability. > > Yes, the navigation could be streamlined and should list sections such > as white papers, success stories and solution guides. That stuff just > needs to be produced! Without that it exists you can't link to it from > the front page. > > Yes, the news should be more frequent and comprehensive. You can't > report what isn't happening. More should be written about FreeBSD and > links to new articles should be collected and updated daily. > > Yes, the advocacy content should be much more exciting and professional. > There is a large need for lots of high quality advocacy content > including white papers, statistics, market research, graphics, success > stories, business cases, etc. All that "just" needs to be produced. > > None of the above will get accomplished by splitting the site in two. > All of the above needs to be done either way. Changing the design of > freebsd.org/freebsd.com is easy. The hard work is creating all the > content that needs to go behind it. > I advocate changes, you disagree with me, and then you list a lot of points that should be changed? Im having difficulties with your logic here. :) All of your points are valid, there are so many things that would improve FreeBSD's image with just a little tweaking. However, everytime I've tried to suggest even the slightest change to freebsd.org, people has started to kick and scream and preach about the end of the OS as we know it. Therefor I have abandoned every hope of ever make freebsd.org evolve, and instead joined the advocates of a user-friendly freebsd.com website. Personally, Im backing out of this discussion now. I would love to see something happen, but there is a limit to how much resistance and stubbornes a man can take. Everytime this kind of discussion has come up, I've tried my best to support any attempts of actually making something happen, but the incredible amount of resistance we always meet has made me question if its worth it. Until core or atleast a group of committers *make* something happen, I doubt anything will change. If you go ahead and try to change freebsd.org, I wish you the best of luck. The brickwall you are about to bang youre head against is very hard. ;) -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 18:11:29 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767F616A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 70F7943D1F; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:10:50 +0100 In-Reply-To: <420E3C36.3030601@401.cx> References: <1108146951.31338.10.camel@hatter.wonderland.dn><20050211203848.55287.qmail@web53602.mail.yahoo.com><811873941.20050211232722@wanadoo.fr><420E27DD.1090200@401.cx> <32e1e7d9032b18f1fc7559f664a536ba@czv.com> <420E3C36.3030601@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <953335bfa83d6330824041fb9665f8b7@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:11:26 +0100 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:29 -0000 On Feb 12, 2005, at 6:26 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > I advocate changes, you disagree with me, and then you list a lot of > points that should be changed? Im having difficulties with your logic > here. :) I'm not against the changes, of course. I'm not "against" a separate freebsd.com site either. But I disagree that there are no valid arguments against the site split. Changing the one combined site would be both possible and preferable. > All of your points are valid, there are so many things that would > improve FreeBSD's image with just a little tweaking. However, > everytime I've tried to suggest even the slightest change to > freebsd.org, people has started to kick and scream and preach about > the end of the OS as we know it. Therefor I have abandoned every hope > of ever make freebsd.org evolve, and instead joined the advocates of a > user-friendly freebsd.com website. > > Personally, Im backing out of this discussion now. I would love to see > something happen, but there is a limit to how much resistance and > stubbornes a man can take. Everytime this kind of discussion has come > up, I've tried my best to support any attempts of actually making > something happen, but the incredible amount of resistance we always > meet has made me question if its worth it. Until core or atleast a > group of committers *make* something happen, I doubt anything will > change. > > If you go ahead and try to change freebsd.org, I wish you the best of > luck. The brickwall you are about to bang youre head against is very > hard. ;) You may be right about that - or maybe the freebsd community will proof you wrong this time :-) ...Either way, I think there is to much talk and to much focus on the surface, cosmetic stuff. The hard work is in producing and collecting the content for the "freebsd.com" site - not in linking to it from a professional looking front page. That we can do, whichever TLD suffix (or alternative domain name for that matter!) it will use. /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 18:33:11 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBA8116A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:33:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F24543D45; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:33:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) j1CIX6j35397; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:33:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , "Chris Zumbrunn" Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:33:05 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <420E3C36.3030601@401.cx> Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:33:11 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' > Vetterberg > Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:26 AM > To: Chris Zumbrunn > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... > > > However, > everytime I've tried to suggest even the slightest change to > freebsd.org, people has started to kick and scream and preach about > the end of the OS as we know it. I have never kicked and screamed about changes to the website layout or such, as long as we don't get rid of the recognizable logos on it. What I and others have always said when someone like you comes along is that you should go for it. Put up a prototype website, it's a free country. Let us look at it. If it's better then the doc people will welcome your efforts on it. Generally when we say this people like you complaining about the website disappear when they realize they are going to have to put their labor where their mouths are. So bye bye. Ted From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 19:14:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A9116A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:14:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C1543D39; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:14:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1CJEl2U037202; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:14:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:16:20 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Chris Zumbrunn Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:14:52 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >>[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' >>Vetterberg >>Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:26 AM >>To: Chris Zumbrunn >>Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >>Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... >> >> >>However, >>everytime I've tried to suggest even the slightest change to >>freebsd.org, people has started to kick and scream and preach about >>the end of the OS as we know it. > > > I have never kicked and screamed about changes to the website layout > or such, as long as we don't get rid of the recognizable logos on it. As far as Im concerned, there are no logos on the website. There is a mascot, but no logo. This, it seems, is a matter of opinion. > What I and others have always said when someone like you comes along > is that you should go for it. Put up a prototype website, it's a > free country. Let us look at it. If it's better then the doc people > will welcome your efforts on it. 'Better' would be a matter of opinion. It would also depend on how you define a good website. For technical people looking for documentation, the current website is very good. For marketing purposes, it sucks. Eventough it is possible to combine the two, I advocate the separated .org/.com solution, simply because the target audiences have very different needs. You, clearly belonging in the technical category, refuses to complement Beastie with a more proffesional logo, something I think is necessary to satisfy the second category. Hence, a separate site for marketing people seems to be a necessity. > Generally when we say this people like you complaining > about the website disappear when they realize they are going to > have to put their labor where their mouths are. If someone points out that something needs improvements, but they are unable to improve it themselves, does this mean that the need for improvement does not exist? Im not a website designer nor a marketing droid, but Im still able to see that FreeBSD could need improvement in these areas. If I could contribute, I would, but I fear that anything I could design would not even beat what we have today. This does not mean that the current website is unbeatable, it just means that I suck at webdesigning. If I could contribute in other ways, I would. Im more then willing to contribute financially and technically, its just that money and technical skills alone will not make a website. > So bye bye. > > Ted Bye. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 19:53:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF16216A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:53:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F016143D1F; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:53:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:53:14 +0100 In-Reply-To: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx> References: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:53:50 +0100 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:53:55 -0000 On Feb 12, 2005, at 8:16 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >>> [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Roger >>> 'Rocky' >>> Vetterberg >>> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:26 AM >>> To: Chris Zumbrunn >>> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org >>> Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... >>> >>> >>> However, everytime I've tried to suggest even the slightest change >>> to freebsd.org, people has started to kick and scream and preach >>> about the end of the OS as we know it. >> I have never kicked and screamed about changes to the website layout >> or such, as long as we don't get rid of the recognizable logos on it. > > As far as Im concerned, there are no logos on the website. There is a > mascot, but no logo. This, it seems, is a matter of opinion. > >> What I and others have always said when someone like you comes along >> is that you should go for it. Put up a prototype website, it's a >> free country. Let us look at it. If it's better then the doc people >> will welcome your efforts on it. > > 'Better' would be a matter of opinion. It would also depend on how you > define a good website. For technical people looking for documentation, > the current website is very good. For marketing purposes, it sucks. > Eventough it is possible to combine the two, I advocate the separated > .org/.com solution, simply because the target audiences have very > different needs. You, clearly belonging in the technical category, > refuses to complement Beastie with a more proffesional logo, something > I think is necessary to satisfy the second category. Hence, a separate > site for marketing people seems to be a necessity. Don't you think this Beastie qualifies as a professional logo? http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 20:09:37 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6289C16A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:09:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B6E43D2F; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:09:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1CK9YOV037791; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:09:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:11:07 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx> <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> In-Reply-To: <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:09:37 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: [snip] > > Don't you think this Beastie qualifies as a professional logo? > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif > Its a major step in the right direction. Personally, I dont really like it, but if it was to be the new logo I would not complain. It would solve most of the printing issues, but to me, it still does not look like something an advanced operating system would use. To much "playground" feeling over it. Maybe just the FreeBSD part and a couple of stylized horns over it, but that would mean Beastie would not be clearly visible and I dont know if I dare to suggest that. ;) No offense, I respect and appreciate your attempts. :) -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 21:00:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA2C16A4D2; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:00:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A49C343D2F; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:00:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:00:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> References: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx> <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:00:53 +0100 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:00:56 -0000 On Feb 12, 2005, at 9:11 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > [snip] >> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif >> > [snip] > Maybe just the FreeBSD part and a couple of stylized horns over it, > but that would mean Beastie would not be clearly visible and I dont > know if I dare to suggest that. ;) I agree something like this... http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif ...would be possible as well. But personally, I think FreeBSD should celebrate some of its idiosyncrasies - specially the ones that are representative of its BSD UNIX tradition. To professionalize FreeBSD we would have to change its name before we would "have to" drop Beastie as its logo. It's probably even true that FreeBSD is more associated and recognized by its Beastie logo than by its name - and I'm not kidding. Chris chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 21:08:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8EF316A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:08:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from hobbiton.shire.net (hobbiton.shire.net [166.70.252.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D77043D3F; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:08:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chad@shire.net) Received: from [67.161.222.227] (helo=[192.168.99.68]) by hobbiton.shire.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1D04Vc-000P3O-9I; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:08:56 -0700 In-Reply-To: <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> References: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx> <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <4C6EA789-7D3A-11D9-B134-000D933E3CEC@shire.net> From: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:08:52 -0700 To: Chris Zumbrunn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 67.161.222.227 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: chad@shire.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.0 (2004-09-13) on hobbiton.shire.net X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.0.0 X-Spam-Level: X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.1+cvs (built Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:44:05 -0700) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on hobbiton.shire.net) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: 'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org' Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:08:56 -0000 On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:00 PM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > On Feb 12, 2005, at 9:11 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >> Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >> [snip] >>> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif >>> >> [snip] >> Maybe just the FreeBSD part and a couple of stylized horns over it, >> but that would mean Beastie would not be clearly visible and I dont >> know if I dare to suggest that. ;) > > I agree something like this... > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif > Looks like a stereo-typed viking :-) Chad From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 21:11:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 903E816A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:11:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF63143D39; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:11:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1CLB0rx038745; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:11:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <420E7141.4020701@401.cx> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:12:33 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx> <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> In-Reply-To: <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:11:03 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > On Feb 12, 2005, at 9:11 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >> Maybe just the FreeBSD part and a couple of stylized horns over it, >> but that would mean Beastie would not be clearly visible and I dont >> know if I dare to suggest that. ;) > > > I agree something like this... > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif > > ...would be possible as well. > > But personally, I think FreeBSD should celebrate some of its > idiosyncrasies - specially the ones that are representative of its BSD > UNIX tradition. To professionalize FreeBSD we would have to change its > name before we would "have to" drop Beastie as its logo. It's probably > even true that FreeBSD is more associated and recognized by its Beastie > logo than by its name - and I'm not kidding. > Totally agree, and thats why I suggest keeping Beastie as a mascot. Look at linux, everyone knows the linux penguin, but that doesnt stop RedHat, Caldera, Debian etc from having professional looking logos. And I think most of us agree that the reason RedHat is more accepted then FreeBSD in the commercial world is not due to its superior quality, stability or heritage, right? Maybe their more professional looking image has something to do with it? ;) -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 21:14:05 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED9516A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:14:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6BE43D39 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:14:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F15866123; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:14:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25843-04; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:14:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (laptop.makeworld.com [198.92.228.35]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437F76110; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:14:00 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420E7192.9090105@makeworld.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:13:54 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC" References: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx> <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> <4C6EA789-7D3A-11D9-B134-000D933E3CEC@shire.net> In-Reply-To: <4C6EA789-7D3A-11D9-B134-000D933E3CEC@shire.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.5.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris Zumbrunn Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:14:05 -0000 Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: > > On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:00 PM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > >> >> On Feb 12, 2005, at 9:11 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >> >>> Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >>> [snip] >>> >>>> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif >>>> >>> [snip] >>> Maybe just the FreeBSD part and a couple of stylized horns over it, >>> but that would mean Beastie would not be clearly visible and I dont >>> know if I dare to suggest that. ;) >> >> >> I agree something like this... >> >> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif >> > > Looks like a stereo-typed viking :-) > > Chad No no no - you would need a huge mug of beer THEN it would be... Please note: I have taken the Questions list out of the reply to all - This certainly does not meet the criteria of the Questions list... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 21:19:14 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEE1416A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:19:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from hobbiton.shire.net (hobbiton.shire.net [166.70.252.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D69243D46 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:19:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chad@shire.net) Received: from [67.161.222.227] (helo=[192.168.99.68]) by hobbiton.shire.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1D04fZ-000PR5-0O; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:19:14 -0700 In-Reply-To: <420E7192.9090105@makeworld.com> References: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx> <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> <4C6EA789-7D3A-11D9-B134-000D933E3CEC@shire.net> <420E7192.9090105@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: From: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:19:11 -0700 To: Chris X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 67.161.222.227 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: chad@shire.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.0 (2004-09-13) on hobbiton.shire.net X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.0.0 X-Spam-Level: X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.1+cvs (built Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:44:05 -0700) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on hobbiton.shire.net) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris Zumbrunn Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:19:14 -0000 On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:13 PM, Chris wrote: > Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: > >> >> On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:00 PM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >> >>> >>> On Feb 12, 2005, at 9:11 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >>> >>>> Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >>>> [snip] >>>> >>>>> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif >>>>> >>>> [snip] >>>> Maybe just the FreeBSD part and a couple of stylized horns over it, >>>> but that would mean Beastie would not be clearly visible and I dont >>>> know if I dare to suggest that. ;) >>> >>> >>> I agree something like this... >>> >>> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif >>> >> >> Looks like a stereo-typed viking :-) >> >> Chad > > No no no - you would need a huge mug of beer THEN it would be... No, then it would be a German or an Australian :-) > > Please note: I have taken the Questions list out of the reply to all - > This certainly does not meet the criteria of the Questions list... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 21:25:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F72016A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:25:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fw.farid-hajji.net (fw.farid-hajji.net [213.146.115.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5017F43D3F for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:25:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpghost@cordula.ws) Received: from fw.farid-hajji.net (net4801-2 [192.168.254.1]) by fw.farid-hajji.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602614B3D0; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:21:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:21:17 +0100 From: cpghost@cordula.ws To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg Message-ID: <20050212212117.GA38925@fw.farid-hajji.net> References: <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> <420E7141.4020701@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <420E7141.4020701@401.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris Zumbrunn Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:25:27 -0000 On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 10:12:33PM +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif Not bad :) > Totally agree, and thats why I suggest keeping Beastie as a mascot. > Look at linux, everyone knows the linux penguin, but that doesnt stop > RedHat, Caldera, Debian etc from having professional looking logos. > And I think most of us agree that the reason RedHat is more accepted > then FreeBSD in the commercial world is not due to its superior > quality, stability or heritage, right? A gecko (SuSE) is a good logo? C'mon! :-) > Maybe their more professional looking image has something to do with > it? ;) If the FreeBSD Project starts seriously thinking this way, then there's something rotten in it. FreeBSD *is* the "Beastie-OS" and its logo should definitely be some reference to Beastie. Perhaps a simplified Beastie, but not some "corporate" dumbed down non-sense logo. -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 21:50:37 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D682A16A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:50:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072AA43D41 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:50:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1CLoUne039302; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:50:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <420E7A83.2070407@401.cx> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:52:03 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cpghost@cordula.ws References: <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> <420E7141.4020701@401.cx> <20050212212117.GA38925@fw.farid-hajji.net> In-Reply-To: <20050212212117.GA38925@fw.farid-hajji.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris Zumbrunn Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:50:38 -0000 cpghost@cordula.ws wrote: > On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 10:12:33PM +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >>>http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif > > Not bad :) > >>Totally agree, and thats why I suggest keeping Beastie as a mascot. >>Look at linux, everyone knows the linux penguin, but that doesnt stop >>RedHat, Caldera, Debian etc from having professional looking logos. >>And I think most of us agree that the reason RedHat is more accepted >>then FreeBSD in the commercial world is not due to its superior >>quality, stability or heritage, right? > > A gecko (SuSE) is a good logo? C'mon! :-) Personally, I might not like the gecko much, but as a logo there is nothing wrong with it. As a mascot, Beastie would beat the gecko with a big stick. In a logo-contest, Beastie would be at the recieving end of previously mentioned stick. >>Maybe their more professional looking image has something to do with >>it? ;) > > If the FreeBSD Project starts seriously thinking this way, > then there's something rotten in it. Please, please, please explain how you came to that conclusion. I fail to see why everyone thinks that having a decent image to show corporate suits automatically means the quality of the project would suffer? Am I missing something here? I think FreeBSD is one of the best os's around. Its stable, its fast, its free. If someone would package all this in a nice looking box and put a nice logo on it, would that make it unstable, slower and less free? I just dont get it. When professional image becomes the most important factor, then I think there is a need for concern, but honestly, FreeBSD is the total opposite. The complete and total lack of professional image is what concerns me. We already have superior code, a tad of image would not change that. > FreeBSD *is* the "Beastie-OS" and its logo should definitely > be some reference to Beastie. Perhaps a simplified Beastie, > but not some "corporate" dumbed down non-sense logo. I do not care about the logo. The corporate suits do. Since I dont care and the suits do, I find that it makes more sense to have a logo that the suites like. I will not go elsewhere if the logo changes, but the suits do alreay look elsewhere because of the logo. But, just to make it clear, if someone tries to remove Beastie as the projects mascot, I will not silently accept it! Beastie is part of BSD's heritage and will most likely always be associated with BSD and UNIX. No logo contest in the world can change that! -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 21:58:41 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C328416A4CF for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:58:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C8F43D41 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:58:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so457406wra for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:58:40 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=pZkOfv+5cs7NstjfHopM/ujbh4ERAw8SQrMAqKY90811Y0/fjtNz5hEvq93xUUHdzWuV4A5p1FwQwGu9rT/TJ0RZq4LldYMGeRyTISzMLZIqBg1aa74slZgEoKlwHy8529dJXL+q26ErUcud14pZIhMRQSyMl4b+zlsfp3dUNbo= Received: by 10.54.30.45 with SMTP id d45mr307164wrd; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:58:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e05021213585acaabcd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:58:39 -0800 From: Astrodog To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Business Advocacy - Was Business Information X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:58:41 -0000 Looks like there's a healthy-sized group that wants to work on this, so I suppose now its time to do the actual "work" part, as opposed to discussing what we should do endlessly. I agree with the notion of splitting the site, or having a section for businesses. Lets face it, they don't give a damn about 99% of the stuff on the site now, and those of us who use FreeBSD daily, like the current site as a technical resource. A facelift would be nice, but so it goes. Anyone who's interested in writing content, or even providing technical information that we can turn into.... marketingese, lets get started on it. Wherever the site goes, the content still needs to be written. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 22:01:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BD2216A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:01:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BE643D45 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:01:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so457604wra for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:01:25 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=gspi5YQj4407sVOSco42s3hKkGfnXqLIGYzXHpU7bpnRIRcBf2M2FiO3d3gjhwQwQA37pCKeQsH67AL2YViMfPaE5M4cTpm6Q4DLG2VTSc/D0tDv0M/dq8/1F7sHcPdDKCdD38U4K1/R/uubb5JXuVkMV1zNlpfuRXmsud02teo= Received: by 10.54.18.69 with SMTP id 69mr20052wrr; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:01:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:01:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e05021214014fda70c3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:01:25 -0800 From: Astrodog To: Ceri Davies , Astrodog , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050210113547.GG18759@submonkey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2fd864e05021002332e78445c@mail.gmail.com> <20050210113547.GG18759@submonkey.net> Subject: Re: Business Information. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:01:26 -0000 I think its time to get started on things, otherwise people are just going to dicuss WHERE it needs to go, endlessly. Regardless of where it goes, we need the content, and we need somewhere to put it so that people can discuss what we're doing, how, and why. Drop me a line with more information on the space, if you wouldn't mind. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 22:06:07 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D7216A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:06:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq1.home.nl (smtpq1.home.nl [213.51.128.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F74243D1F for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:06:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.134] (port=33653 helo=smtp3.home.nl) by smtpq1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D05Ou-0002pH-Kj; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:06:04 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:35263 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D05Ot-0002sv-OB; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:06:03 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: Astrodog In-Reply-To: <2fd864e05021214014fda70c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <2fd864e05021002332e78445c@mail.gmail.com> <20050210113547.GG18759@submonkey.net> <2fd864e05021214014fda70c3@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: SiteTronics Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:06:03 +0100 Message-Id: <1108245963.11274.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: Business Information. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:06:07 -0000 On Sat, 2005-02-12 at 14:01 -0800, Astrodog wrote: > I think its time to get started on things, otherwise people are just > going to dicuss WHERE it needs to go, endlessly. Regardless of where > it goes, we need the content, and we need somewhere to put it so that > people can discuss what we're doing, how, and why. Drop me a line with > more information on the space, if you wouldn't mind. > > --- Harrison Grundy I've offered to coordinate this several times. I can host, I can help with some content sometimes, I can help with designing graphics sometimes, I can help with programming and administration sometimes, and I can help with designing sometimes. I created #FreeBSD.com in Freenode to discuss this. Please only join if you want to put your money where your mouth is. I don't want a million people joining who are going to offer a million opinions and do nothing. --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 22:28:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7524416A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:28:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fw.farid-hajji.net (fw.farid-hajji.net [213.146.115.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE32443D46 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:28:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpghost@cordula.ws) Received: from fw.farid-hajji.net (net4801-2 [192.168.254.1]) by fw.farid-hajji.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474564B2AB; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:24:47 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:24:46 +0100 From: cpghost@cordula.ws To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg Message-ID: <20050212222446.GA39237@fw.farid-hajji.net> References: <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> <420E7141.4020701@401.cx> <20050212212117.GA38925@fw.farid-hajji.net> <420E7A83.2070407@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <420E7A83.2070407@401.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: cpghost@cordula.ws cc: Chris Zumbrunn Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:28:55 -0000 On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 10:52:03PM +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > As a mascot, Beastie would beat the gecko with a big stick. In a > logo-contest, Beastie would be at the recieving end of previously > mentioned stick. It depends how it is designed. Perhaps a good professional designer would come up with a simplified Beastie, that would be a perfect logo, yet still represent a large portion of the BSD community. > >If the FreeBSD Project starts seriously thinking this way, > >then there's something rotten in it. > > Please, please, please explain how you came to that conclusion. There's a lot of discussion going on about secondary stuff like logos and so, while a lot of things needs to be fixed in RELENG_5 (or CURRENT). But please read on. > I fail to see why everyone thinks that having a decent image to show > corporate suits automatically means the quality of the project would > suffer? Am I missing something here? Are we there to please *some* suits? The only point that the Beastie opponents offer is that some companies may be scared away from providing FreeBSD drivers of their hardware, because of the current logo (I'm sorry to repeat it here: we do have a logo, even if it's not official or canonized as such). How many corps are now providing drivers or are thinking about doing so? Not so many. And if you take the little number that remains, how many of these will have a management that really cares about the form of the logo? After all, FreeBSD has always been a technical project and one if its greatest strengths has been to stay away from corporatism und marketroids. Things are really going down the drain if we start to have discussions like these. > But, just to make it clear, if someone tries to remove Beastie as the > projects mascot, I will not silently accept it! Beastie is part of > BSD's heritage and will most likely always be associated with BSD and > UNIX. No logo contest in the world can change that! Logo contests are not a problem per se. It's their outcomes that worries me (and a lot of other people as well, if you judge by the online petition that's circulating right now). Regards, -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 22:43:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544B016A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:43:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dsl-mail.kamp.net (mail.kamp-dsl.de [195.62.99.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3127B43D2D for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:43:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from farid.hajji@ob.kamp.net) Received: (qmail 14254 invoked by uid 513); 12 Feb 2005 22:43:51 -0000 Received: from 213.146.115.42 by dsl-mail (envelope-from , uid 89) with qmail-scanner-1.24 (clamdscan: 0.80/609. spamassassin: 2.60. Clear:RC:1(213.146.115.42):. Processed in 0.177101 secs); 12 Feb 2005 22:43:51 -0000 Received: from fw.farid-hajji.net (farid.hajji%ob.kamp.net@213.146.115.42) by dsl-mail.kamp.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 2005 22:43:50 -0000 Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:39:37 +0100 From: Farid Hajji To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050212223937.GB39237@fw.farid-hajji.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Pleasing both suits and the community (Logo Contest) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:43:47 -0000 Hi, some posters here suggested that a "professional" logo (whatever that means) would please the suits and help the development of FreeBSD (drivers, new code...) and its deployment in the enterprise. This is difficult to predict, to say the least. Some of you may have experienced difficulties introducing FreeBSD to your company or university, but that is by no means representative. There are not so many companies that would provide code to the project. The few of those that do, are mostly technically active and very few of them would care about the logo (or Beastie). Most of them would just say: "Hey, your user base is too small to justify our time porting drivers." So that leaves R&D corps out of the equation. The other point is to increase the user base within the mainstream (so that R&D can say: "okay, we can now start developing code for fBSD"), and here, *some* (but by no means the majority of) suits may be sensitive to a Beastie logo. We therefore have two camps that are fiercely opposed. On the one hand, there are those would would like to appease "the suits" and aggressively commercialize FreeBSD. On the other hand, we have a lot of grass roots sysadmins and other users, who have been the driving force behind FreeBSD's success in recent years, you don't want to have people mess with Beastie in any way (including removing it from it's role as a logo). How can we reconcile both camps? Why not keep FreeBSD absolutely non-commercial, with Beastie as a logo *and* mascot, and fork "sanitized" distributions (a la linux) that could be sold to those ultra-conservative suits? Like FundiBSD or so? (Nah, just kidding). But seriously: the only people who would be interested in commercializing FreeBSD are enterprises that are not related to The FreeBSD Project. Let them create (and use) their *own* logos (beastified or not, that's their call) and *please* leave this project alone. This way, the FreeBSD Project would be saved from being taken over by people with a political agenda, and remain the excellent technical development platform it has been since its creation. Farid Hajji. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 22:51:05 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3A416A4CE; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:51:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dustpuppy.tbc.net (tbc2.tbc.net [207.112.224.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2DE743D2F; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:51:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from harrison@tbc.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dustpuppy.tbc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9480111BE5C; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:51:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from dustpuppy.tbc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dustpuppy.tbc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21919-09; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:51:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from [209.100.183.159] (adsl-183-159.tbcnet.com [209.100.183.159]) by dustpuppy.tbc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F8811C486; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:51:18 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420E88EF.8030405@tbc.net> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:53:35 -0600 From: Shawn Harrison User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx> <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> In-Reply-To: <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at tbc.net cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:51:06 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote [02/12/05 1:53 PM]: > Don't you think this Beastie qualifies as a professional logo? > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif He's certainly austere enough with that Roman nose. "Gravitas." -- ________________ harrison@tbc.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 23:48:13 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D26816A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:48:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FD3643D1D for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:48:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:47:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> References: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx><8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <5d2c5b3fc02d9bce6613216cb03ecb54@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:48:11 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:48:13 -0000 On Feb 12, 2005, at 10:00 PM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >>> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif >>> >> [snip] > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif Here are some more versions: http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehornsntail.gif http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns2.gif http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehornsntail2.gif All of these are cleaner, more typical corporate logos compare to the full Beastie: http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif ...but using the entire Beastie silhouette is just more appropriate for the FreeBSD project... On Feb 12, 2005, at 10:12 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Look at linux, everyone knows the linux penguin, but that doesnt stop > RedHat, Caldera, Debian etc from having professional looking logos. They are all separate entities from Linux. They are independent companies that offer distributions. They are not Linux - so they can not claim the Linux logo for themselves. On the other hand, FreeBSD is FreeBSD and should use the FreeBSD logo: Beastie. If Beastie is more representative of the project and its product than its name, why should we reduce Beastie to a stuffed animal if we can have Beastie as our logo. If we could rename the entire project to "Beastie", we probably should ;-) chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 12 23:59:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E3016A4CE for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:59:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C121C43D1F for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:59:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1CNwpeo040808; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:58:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <420E9899.8000700@401.cx> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:00:25 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cpghost@cordula.ws References: <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> <420E7141.4020701@401.cx> <20050212212117.GA38925@fw.farid-hajji.net> <420E7A83.2070407@401.cx> <20050212222446.GA39237@fw.farid-hajji.net> In-Reply-To: <20050212222446.GA39237@fw.farid-hajji.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris Zumbrunn Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:59:04 -0000 cpghost@cordula.ws wrote: > On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 10:52:03PM +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >>As a mascot, Beastie would beat the gecko with a big stick. In a >>logo-contest, Beastie would be at the recieving end of previously >>mentioned stick. > > It depends how it is designed. Perhaps a good professional designer > would come up with a simplified Beastie, that would be a perfect > logo, yet still represent a large portion of the BSD community. I have never argued against Beastie per se, its just that the current "logo" is not as good as it could be. The logo may perfectly well be a daemon, as long as it has a professional design. Im sure that if the logo contest happens, a majority of the contributions will present Beastie, in one way or another. > >>>If the FreeBSD Project starts seriously thinking this way, >>>then there's something rotten in it. >> >>Please, please, please explain how you came to that conclusion. > > There's a lot of discussion going on about secondary stuff > like logos and so, while a lot of things needs to be fixed > in RELENG_5 (or CURRENT). But please read on. Im not a programmer. I do not have the skills needed to contribute by fixing even the simpliest bugs. However, I do love FreeBSD and I try to contribute in any way I can. One of them being improving the image of FreeBSD. The people that knows how to code and fix bugs should be allowed to do that instead of thinking about the image of the project, and thats what Im trying to allow them to do. If my contributions are not welcome, then FreeBSD has truely become the elitist playground many are accusing it of. >>I fail to see why everyone thinks that having a decent image to show >>corporate suits automatically means the quality of the project would >>suffer? Am I missing something here? > > Are we there to please *some* suits? The only point that the > Beastie opponents offer is that some companies may be scared > away from providing FreeBSD drivers of their hardware, because > of the current logo (I'm sorry to repeat it here: we do have > a logo, even if it's not official or canonized as such). Im not saying the current logo scares them *away* from the project, Im saying that the current logo does nothing to help *attract* them to the project. > How many corps are now providing drivers or are thinking about > doing so? Not so many. And if you take the little number that > remains, how many of these will have a management that really > cares about the form of the logo? I think you underestimate the value of a professional image. Why do you think big corporations spend millions of dollars on logos and company profiles? > After all, FreeBSD has always been a technical project and > one if its greatest strengths has been to stay away from > corporatism und marketroids. Things are really going down > the drain if we start to have discussions like these. I think there is a difference between "staying away" and "alienate". FreeBSD should stay technically oriented, but that does not mean that we have to fight everything remotely connected to good marketing. FreeBSD should not let marketing and corporatism control its decisions in any way, but that doesnt mean we cant improve in those areas if it means no sacrifies in others. >>But, just to make it clear, if someone tries to remove Beastie as the >>projects mascot, I will not silently accept it! Beastie is part of >>BSD's heritage and will most likely always be associated with BSD and >>UNIX. No logo contest in the world can change that! > > > Logo contests are not a problem per se. It's their outcomes > that worries me (and a lot of other people as well, if you > judge by the online petition that's circulating right now). I do not think that the petition was presented in a correct way. The creator made it sound like someone was attempting to ban Beastie from being associated with BSD in any way, which is not even remotely true. -- R