From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 00:12:48 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B2C16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:12:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB8E43D2F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:12:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1D0CfDC041017; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:12:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <420E9BD7.7070008@401.cx> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:14:15 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx><8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> <5d2c5b3fc02d9bce6613216cb03ecb54@czv.com> In-Reply-To: <5d2c5b3fc02d9bce6613216cb03ecb54@czv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:12:48 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > On Feb 12, 2005, at 10:12 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >> Look at linux, everyone knows the linux penguin, but that doesnt stop >> RedHat, Caldera, Debian etc from having professional looking logos. > > They are all separate entities from Linux. They are independent > companies that offer distributions. They are not Linux - so they can not > claim the Linux logo for themselves. On the other hand, FreeBSD is > FreeBSD and should use the FreeBSD logo: Beastie. In that case, I must argue that the use of the daemon predates FreeBSD by far, and can be seen as a logo for the BSD family as a whole, not to say UNIX as a whole. FreeBSD is not BSD nor UNIX - so it can not claim the Beastie logo for itselves. However, I do not object to somehow incorporate Beastie in the logo to show our heritage. > If Beastie is more representative of the project and its product than > its name, why should we reduce Beastie to a stuffed animal if we can > have Beastie as our logo. If we could rename the entire project to > "Beastie", we probably should ;-) I would not use the word "representative" as I think that is one of the problems with the current logo. It is widely *associated* with BSD, but I would not say that its very *representative* for BSD. A cutting edge operating system like freebsd should have a logo that shows this, not something that makes it look like a toy for teenage hackers. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 00:16:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D9316A4CF for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:16:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web53907.mail.yahoo.com (web53907.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6CB2543D3F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:16:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stheg_olloydson@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 59517 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Feb 2005 00:16:21 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=2XX7SfE0mKVmpkuNhB6iTZlIo9yNtt/yISuyGXEAkF3MJD7Yqk75eG/jNiUdcIZ6Z6J6+0YPam3TawCUiHpnYvsH2uRoTRiBtY5411iknYJ4N8sGo7qKfvrTRavoIVxZX9jwQKms5t4jGG7s7w9x+KG9oWE5mveA68VfyF3csV8= ; Message-ID: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.157.54.246] by web53907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:16:21 PST Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:16:21 -0800 (PST) From: stheg olloydson To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:16:23 -0000 it was cried into the wilderness of rancor by Dag-Erling Smørgrav on Fri Feb 11 09:30:50 2005: >Likewise, Beastie is a mascot, not a logo. In fact, it fails the >primary and most important test of logoness: it is not exclusive to >the FreeBSD project, but is shared by all BSD projects. It also fails >several other important tests of logoness: it is not under the FreeBSD >project's direct control (our use of it is subject to the whim and >mercy of Kirk McKusick); it is not a registered trademark; it is >probably too diluted already to even be eligible to be registered as a >trademark. FINALLY! A worthwhile point of view - not obscured by emotion or reproduction mumbo-jumbo! These are extremely important points, the most important being Beastie doesn't belong to FreeBSD in any way, shape, or form. This fact renders all other arguments moot. Forget all of the "tradition", "offense", "professional", etc. time-wasting, bandwidth consuming crapola that's been posted on this topic. I submit that whether or not replacing Beastie as FBSD's main symbol is a good idea is irrelevant. It is _necessary_. A company needs to exclusively control an undiluted brand identifier. Does anyone know of a business, other than the odd one person or family run shop that doesn't have that? Would you trust a friend to hold the rights to your logo (mascot, whatever)? Then why should FreeBSD? Of course, the Project could buy the rights to Beastie, but then we run into the "dilution" problem Mr. Smørgrav mentions. The image is non-exclusive to FBSD. Even worse, I recall a post on questions@ by someone reporting its use by a condom machine company in England and Wales. Trying to enforce clear trademark use is hard enough. For the Project to go after unauthorized use of Beastie would be expensive and probably impossible. So there it is. Mr. Smørgrav should be thanked for a business-based reason for the change by making an irrefutable argument. Those that STILL disagree should consult a lawyer that specializes in intellectual property law. Still going to use Beastie when I can, Stheg P.S. My agreement with Mr. Smørgrav's argument should not be construed as agreeing with what many (me included) perceive as the sneaky way this issue has been handled. Based on the comments from the few commiters that made comments on this topic, a discussion took place among the commiters who then unilaterally made the decision. As is obvious, this was a very bad idea. I propose that in the future, such discussions be held on a special-use list to avoid the appearance of "you're neither important nor smart enough to discuss this" and to prevent the list-pollution we are now seeing on questions@. P.P.S. Whether you agree with my position on this or not, will those who comments on this topic have devolved into "I'm going to make my point to that idiot yet" posts PLEASE TAKE IT OFF QUESTIONS@? Your one-upmanship makes both sides look stupid and makes useful information, like Mr. Smørgrav's points, difficult to find. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 00:19:48 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9753416A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:19:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6461D43D39 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:19:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1D0Jjha041067; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:19:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <420E9D7F.7040901@401.cx> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:21:19 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Farid Hajji References: <20050212223937.GB39237@fw.farid-hajji.net> In-Reply-To: <20050212223937.GB39237@fw.farid-hajji.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pleasing both suits and the community (Logo Contest) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:19:48 -0000 Farid Hajji wrote: [snipping a lot of text] > This way, the FreeBSD Project would be saved from being taken > over by people with a political agenda, and remain the excellent > technical development platform it has been since its creation. Why only the two extremes? I do not wish to "commercialize" FreeBSD. I would hate if that ever happened. And I do not want FreeBSD to be taken over by anyone, I fully trust and support the people that runs the project today. I simply can not see why an excellent technical development platform can not have an estethically pleasing logo and still be an excellent technical development platform? -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 00:42:05 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442EF16A4CE; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:42:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.199.47.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57EF43D3F; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:42:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2750551DF4; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:42:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:42:04 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: stheg olloydson Message-ID: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:42:05 -0000 --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 04:16:21PM -0800, stheg olloydson wrote: > P.S. My agreement with Mr. Sm?rgrav's argument should not be construed > as agreeing with what many (me included) perceive as the sneaky way > this issue has been handled. Based on the comments from the few > commiters that made comments on this topic, a discussion took place > among the commiters who then unilaterally made the decision. Sorry, but that's how the FreeBSD project works and always has worked. The FreeBSD Core team has always decided policy for the FreeBSD project, and they can handle it any way they like, including making unilateral decisions with consulting with the FreeBSD user base. For better or worse, FreeBSD is not a democracy of users - if you thought otherwise then you were just mistaken. Kris --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCDqJbWry0BWjoQKURAkYiAKCJH9S36V+qhaG8c4r+WZvRX8+sLQCfcdZz 536HSGYZWm/+zGQdy6QD1Eo= =6nzv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 02:10:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6623616A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:10:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web53901.mail.yahoo.com (web53901.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.211]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E76B243D3F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:10:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stheg_olloydson@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 69768 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Feb 2005 02:10:55 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=6hVxsbFKqp7+QcR8uxp38t+VaIxWYoA72FxRgCwVREaUQbX7JbOrv5qK4ofISPSLTzlHt/PodP/iDFV/cug2AUMe+FcDieDNXWHv8puNFgLh41RwrV1mXZ2feb4qn7YhbGUnXSCvTxjof0W3fS9xYAoRD7pbaHA8TAA6wfnwq4Y= ; Message-ID: <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.18.10.190] by web53901.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:10:55 PST Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:10:55 -0800 (PST) From: stheg olloydson To: kris@obsecurity.org In-Reply-To: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:10:56 -0000 --- Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 04:16:21PM -0800, stheg olloydson wrote: > > > P.S. My agreement with Mr. Sm?rgrav's argument should not be > construed > > as agreeing with what many (me included) perceive as the sneaky way > > this issue has been handled. Based on the comments from the few > > commiters that made comments on this topic, a discussion took place > > among the commiters who then unilaterally made the decision. > > Sorry, but that's how the FreeBSD project works and always has > worked. > The FreeBSD Core team has always decided policy for the FreeBSD > project, and they can handle it any way they like, including making > unilateral decisions with consulting with the FreeBSD user base. For > better or worse, FreeBSD is not a democracy of users - if you thought > otherwise then you were just mistaken. > > Kris > Hello, Core being Core will do what they think is best, and they have every right to. That's not my point. My point is the discussion took place in secret. What I am suggesting is that when certain discussions take place that they be publicly readable. The US and UK (other countries too, I'm sure) have television cameras in their legislative chambers so those who are interested can hear pro and con arguments on some issues by those making the decisions. The legislators certainly don't take calls from the viewers - although sometimes I wish they would ;). Obviously, mundane discussions about "network performance should be optimized first - no disk i/o should be first" don't need to be public; but those about Project policy ought to be. You could even obscure who is making which argument if you want to protect those taking unpopular positions. After all, there already is a (utterly empty) policy@ list. As you say, FBSD isn't a "democracy of users" (thankfully), and doing this won't change that. It will, however, allow users to mull over the different arguments among themselves (hopefully on something like opinions@ and not a useful list such as questions@). Best regards, Stheg __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 02:26:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A908516A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:26:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.199.47.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7016343D1D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:26:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 41C1551485; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:26:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:26:05 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: stheg olloydson Message-ID: <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zhXaljGHf11kAtnf" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: kris@obsecurity.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:26:06 -0000 --zhXaljGHf11kAtnf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 06:10:55PM -0800, stheg olloydson wrote: > Core being Core will do what they think is best, and they have every > right to. That's not my point. My point is the discussion took place in > secret. What I am suggesting is that when certain discussions take > place that they be publicly readable. Again, FreeBSD has never worked that way, but if you think it should then you should raise the suggestion with core. Kris --zhXaljGHf11kAtnf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCDrq8Wry0BWjoQKURAnaGAKCpoRyJfc/nCXS28OV80zbzwHl74gCeKYpE SLnO+rfsRDmuUCkQ8tb76f4= =WXuN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zhXaljGHf11kAtnf-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 02:59:39 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ABE616A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:59:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.200.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F01843D5C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:59:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mcd_advisory@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 55710 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Feb 2005 02:59:29 -0000 Message-ID: <20050213025929.55708.qmail@web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.248.172.15] by web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:59:29 PST Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:59:29 -0800 (PST) From: Mervin McDougall To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg In-Reply-To: <420E7141.4020701@401.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-newbies Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:59:39 -0000 --- Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > > > On Feb 12, 2005, at 9:11 PM, Roger 'Rocky' > Vetterberg wrote: > >> Maybe just the FreeBSD part and a couple of > stylized horns over it, > >> but that would mean Beastie would not be clearly > visible and I dont > >> know if I dare to suggest that. ;) > > > > > > I agree something like this... > > > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif > > > > ...would be possible as well. > > > > But personally, I think FreeBSD should celebrate > some of its > > idiosyncrasies - specially the ones that are > representative of its BSD > > UNIX tradition. To professionalize FreeBSD we > would have to change its > > name before we would "have to" drop Beastie as its > logo. It's probably > > even true that FreeBSD is more associated and > recognized by its Beastie > > logo than by its name - and I'm not kidding. > > > > Totally agree, and thats why I suggest keeping > Beastie as a mascot. > Look at linux, everyone knows the linux penguin, but > that doesnt stop > RedHat, Caldera, Debian etc from having professional > looking logos. > And I think most of us agree that the reason RedHat > is more accepted > then FreeBSD in the commercial world is not due to > its superior > quality, stability or heritage, right? > Maybe their more professional looking image has > something to do with > it? ;) > > -- > R > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > how can we sit back and embrace halloween as a custom where kids dress up as all form of Un Godly creature with all companies promoting all kinds of costumes and parents willing to allow their children to enjoy that season and think it is ok but wrong for us to embrace beastie as a logo for FreeBSD. There is nothing wrong with freebsd just the way that persons wish to intepret it. We need a new advertising staff and some good PR people not a new logo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 02:59:58 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC7F16A4CE; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:59:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bsdnerds.org (pcp0011384308pcs.ebrnsw01.nj.comcast.net [69.248.83.208]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD8D43D2F; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:59:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org) Received: by bsdnerds.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 29D6B6172; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:59:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by bsdnerds.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDBCB615C for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFD355B72; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:59:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8F116A4CE; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:59:46 +0000 (GMT) Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5781616A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:59:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.200.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 09DAD43D45 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:59:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mcd_advisory@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 55710 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Feb 2005 02:59:29 -0000 Message-ID: <20050213025929.55708.qmail@web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.248.172.15] by web30908.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:59:29 PST Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:59:29 -0800 (PST) From: Mervin McDougall To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg In-Reply-To: <420E7141.4020701@401.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64 (2004-01-11) on bsdnerds.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=4.5 tests=FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD autolearn=no version=2.64 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-newbies Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:59:58 -0000 --- Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > > > On Feb 12, 2005, at 9:11 PM, Roger 'Rocky' > Vetterberg wrote: > >> Maybe just the FreeBSD part and a couple of > stylized horns over it, > >> but that would mean Beastie would not be clearly > visible and I dont > >> know if I dare to suggest that. ;) > > > > > > I agree something like this... > > > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif > > > > ...would be possible as well. > > > > But personally, I think FreeBSD should celebrate > some of its > > idiosyncrasies - specially the ones that are > representative of its BSD > > UNIX tradition. To professionalize FreeBSD we > would have to change its > > name before we would "have to" drop Beastie as its > logo. It's probably > > even true that FreeBSD is more associated and > recognized by its Beastie > > logo than by its name - and I'm not kidding. > > > > Totally agree, and thats why I suggest keeping > Beastie as a mascot. > Look at linux, everyone knows the linux penguin, but > that doesnt stop > RedHat, Caldera, Debian etc from having professional > looking logos. > And I think most of us agree that the reason RedHat > is more accepted > then FreeBSD in the commercial world is not due to > its superior > quality, stability or heritage, right? > Maybe their more professional looking image has > something to do with > it? ;) > > -- > R > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > how can we sit back and embrace halloween as a custom where kids dress up as all form of Un Godly creature with all companies promoting all kinds of costumes and parents willing to allow their children to enjoy that season and think it is ok but wrong for us to embrace beastie as a logo for FreeBSD. There is nothing wrong with freebsd just the way that persons wish to intepret it. We need a new advertising staff and some good PR people not a new logo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-newbies To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-newbies-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 03:17:59 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81E016A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 03:17:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 418E743D46 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 03:17:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20050213031758i9100k5nlae>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 03:17:58 +0000 Message-ID: <420EC6E3.903@nbritton.org> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:17:55 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stheg olloydson References: <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: kris@obsecurity.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 03:17:59 -0000 stheg olloydson wrote: >--- Kris Kennaway wrote: > >>On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 04:16:21PM -0800, stheg olloydson wrote: >> >>>P.S. My agreement with Mr. Sm?rgrav's argument should not be >> >>construed >> >>>as agreeing with what many (me included) perceive as the sneaky way >>>this issue has been handled. Based on the comments from the few >>>commiters that made comments on this topic, a discussion took place >>>among the commiters who then unilaterally made the decision. >> >>Sorry, but that's how the FreeBSD project works and always has >>worked. >>The FreeBSD Core team has always decided policy for the FreeBSD >>project, and they can handle it any way they like, including making >>unilateral decisions with consulting with the FreeBSD user base. For >>better or worse, FreeBSD is not a democracy of users - if you thought >>otherwise then you were just mistaken. >> >>Kris >> > >Hello, > >Core being Core will do what they think is best, and they have every >right to. That's not my point. My point is the discussion took place in >secret. > >[sniped] "In message: <41D18150.3030104@nbritton.org> Nikolas Britton writes: > M. Warner Losh wrote: [sniped] > I was generalizing. but now that I got your ear what is the core team > doing about PR and Martketing [sniped]. We are well aware of the issues here, and have talked about them in some depth. We'd planned on launching our efforts to fix the problems, if any truly exist, after the first of the year when people are back from their holidays. [sniped]. In the past, PR has been done by the cdrom companies, but their monitary incentives for doing that is now way down since cdrom sales have dropped so much over the years. [sniped] Warner" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 03:59:20 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19F416A4CF for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 03:59:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA70943D2F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 03:59:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 12810 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2005 03:59:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 13 Feb 2005 03:59:17 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050213035916.ZFOR1207.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:59:16 +0800 Message-ID: <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:01:22 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> In-Reply-To: <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: stheg olloydson cc: kris@obsecurity.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 03:59:21 -0000 Hi, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 06:10:55PM -0800, stheg olloydson wrote: > > >>Core being Core will do what they think is best, and they have every >>right to. That's not my point. My point is the discussion took place in >>secret. What I am suggesting is that when certain discussions take >>place that they be publicly readable. > > > Again, FreeBSD has never worked that way, but if you think it should > then you should raise the suggestion with core. > Could this be the real reason for the "acceptance" problem? In the same moment, this is also the reason for its strengths. A small number of people "controls" FreeBSD giving it a direction they think is best. This concept is what companies do not understand. If companies use Linux, they do it because it "comes" from IBM or any other big vendor. If something goes wrong they go back to the vendor with the big name. I do not see FreeBSD make bigger waves as long as this does not change not matter what name or logo FreeBSD uses. So, why do it then? Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 05:02:19 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B080B16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:02:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54DF043D48 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:02:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050213050213i92004v07he>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:02:14 +0000 Message-ID: <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:02:10 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Dollansky References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> In-Reply-To: <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: stheg olloydson cc: kris@obsecurity.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:02:19 -0000 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 06:10:55PM -0800, stheg olloydson wrote: >> >> >>> Core being Core will do what they think is best, and they have every >>> right to. That's not my point. My point is the discussion took place in >>> secret. What I am suggesting is that when certain discussions take >>> place that they be publicly readable. >> >> >> >> Again, FreeBSD has never worked that way, but if you think it should >> then you should raise the suggestion with core. >> > Could this be the real reason for the "acceptance" problem? > > In the same moment, this is also the reason for its strengths. A small > number of people "controls" FreeBSD giving it a direction they think > is best. Also remember that the community (committers) voted them into "office" to represent and make decisions for us. "These bylaws were approved by a vote of active committers on August 28, 2000. * Active committers have made a commit to the tree in the last 12 months. * Core consists of 9 elected active committers. * Core elections are held every 2 years, first time September 2000. * Core members and committers may be ejected by a 2/3 vote of core. * If the size of core falls below 7, an early election is held. * A petition of 1/3 of active committers can trigger an early election. * All elections will be run as follows: o Core appoints and announces someone to run the election. o 1 week to tally active committers wishing to run for core. o 4 weeks for the actual vote o 1 week to tally and post the results. o Each active committer may vote once in support of up to nine nominees. o New core team becomes effective 1 week after the results are posted. o Voting ties decided by unambiguously elected new core members. * These rules can be changed by a 2/3 majority of committers if at least 50% of active committers cast their vote." ---------------------------------------------------- Democracy, 1b: A government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections. -Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 05:24:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B8716A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:24:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DCE3643D31 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:24:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 3703 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2005 05:24:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by sarajevo with SMTP; 13 Feb 2005 05:24:43 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050213052443.ZIQG1207.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:24:43 +0800 Message-ID: <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:26:48 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nikolas Britton References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: stheg olloydson cc: kris@obsecurity.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:24:47 -0000 Hi, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Erich Dollansky wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Kris Kennaway wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 06:10:55PM -0800, stheg olloydson wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Core being Core will do what they think is best, and they have every >>>> right to. That's not my point. My point is the discussion took place in >>>> secret. What I am suggesting is that when certain discussions take >>>> place that they be publicly readable. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Again, FreeBSD has never worked that way, but if you think it should >>> then you should raise the suggestion with core. >>> >> Could this be the real reason for the "acceptance" problem? >> >> In the same moment, this is also the reason for its strengths. A small >> number of people "controls" FreeBSD giving it a direction they think >> is best. > > > Also remember that the community (committers) voted them into "office" > to represent and make decisions for us. > Do not get me wrong here. I do not think that this is bad. I think that this is the reason for the acceptance as it is by companies. No matter what FreeBSD will do, companies will not accept FreeBSD more as long as this structure stays like this. On the other side, it is this structure which made FreeBSD to what FreeBSD is. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 05:36:15 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9643216A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:36:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web53907.mail.yahoo.com (web53907.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 205E843D1D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:36:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stheg_olloydson@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 32864 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Feb 2005 05:36:14 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=iilWrHaMgwu+fzGs7XAUR88m4VU0zGq6WBUK/4eAFeD/vD8dVBjBCNF2lNfv5xnH2He4D0lov8EABYgFgb6AoeSR/SRVJtU6u/1zkTgqKYoL/NLN9ZzA123xSCXY5jhwrzLQi5hxFFKjFOklK7Zm1NTJE/iuxI+s3CbQ5VkM98E= ; Message-ID: <20050213053614.32862.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.18.10.58] by web53907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:36:14 PST Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:36:14 -0800 (PST) From: stheg olloydson To: Erich Dollansky , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: kris@obsecurity.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:36:15 -0000 --- Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 06:10:55PM -0800, stheg olloydson wrote: > > > > > >>Core being Core will do what they think is best, and they have > every > >>right to. That's not my point. My point is the discussion took > place in > >>secret. What I am suggesting is that when certain discussions take > >>place that they be publicly readable. > > > > > > Again, FreeBSD has never worked that way, but if you think it > should > > then you should raise the suggestion with core. > > > Could this be the real reason for the "acceptance" problem? > > In the same moment, this is also the reason for its strengths. A > small > number of people "controls" FreeBSD giving it a direction they think > is > best. > > This concept is what companies do not understand. > > If companies use Linux, they do it because it "comes" from IBM or any > > other big vendor. If something goes wrong they go back to the vendor > with the big name. > > I do not see FreeBSD make bigger waves as long as this does not > change > not matter what name or logo FreeBSD uses. > > So, why do it then? > > Erich Hello, I don't think I follow you. FBSD having Core is a Good Thing. Unlike several other OSs, FBSD is the only one, AFAIK, that has an elected group running things. This ensures continuity of direction and lessens the chance of false step that a single person might take. When I do presentations, I always mention this fact. As for Linux coming from a big vendor, when the company for which I work does an installation, the customer calls _us_ for support, not MS, Redhat, etc. - if they buy a support contract, which most do. Why? Because we're the ones that told them what they should buy and that should buy it from us. I've read posts from people saying that they're tired of explaining Beastie. I don't remember anyone ever asking about it. In my ~9 years of dealing with FBSD, by far the biggest problem has been name recognition. All most every time I have presented it, I have been asked, "If it's so good, why haven't I heard of it." That's hard to explain, and it's very hard to convince someone that something they've never saw mentioned in the computer press is any good. (The name makes this particular problem even worse, but I think if the name were to become well-known, the unfortunate connotation of "free" would become irrelevant.) Regarding your last question, why do what? Regards, stheg __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 05:45:19 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5095016A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:45:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F01143D31 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:45:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 7627 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2005 05:45:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by sarajevo with SMTP; 13 Feb 2005 05:45:16 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050213054516.ZJFV1207.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:45:16 +0800 Message-ID: <420EE9E9.6020207@pacific.net.sg> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:47:21 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stheg olloydson References: <20050213053614.32862.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050213053614.32862.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org cc: kris@obsecurity.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:45:19 -0000 Hi, stheg olloydson wrote: > --- Erich Dollansky wrote: > > I don't think I follow you. FBSD having Core is a Good Thing. Unlike I tried to say that having core is a good thing for FreeBSD as it is, if you like FreeBSD is it is. > As for Linux coming from a big vendor, when the company for which I > work does an installation, the customer calls _us_ for support, not MS, No matter where they actually get the support from, they still can go back to the hardware vendor because Linux came from them. It is a different question from where they finally take the support. > Beastie. I don't remember anyone ever asking about it. In my ~9 years Same with me. > of dealing with FBSD, by far the biggest problem has been name > recognition. All most every time I have presented it, I have been Yes, there is no hype around it. > Regarding your last question, why do what? > Put all the effort into the new logo. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 05:58:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2801B16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:58:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from grover.logicsquad.net (ppp140-249.lns1.adl2.internode.on.net [150.101.140.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C08AC43D3F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:58:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paulh@logicsquad.net) Received: (qmail 18859 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Feb 2005 05:58:31 -0000 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:28:31 +1030 From: "Paul A. Hoadley" To: Erich Dollansky Message-ID: <20050213055831.GB8532@grover.logicsquad.net> References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:58:35 -0000 --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 01:26:48PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > >Also remember that the community (committers) voted them into > >"office" to represent and make decisions for us. > > Do not get me wrong here. I do not think that this is bad. > > I think that this is the reason for the acceptance as it is by > companies. > > No matter what FreeBSD will do, companies will not accept FreeBSD > more as long as this structure stays like this. What makes you draw this conclusion? --=20 Paul. w http://logicsquad.net/ h http://paul.hoadley.name/ --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCDuyH730Z/jysbzIRAjarAJ9XNclICllGj2jZddfoj8ATUuF+SgCfY5UF ARsi5kwViHo209XD7c1rpOw= =pzkZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OgqxwSJOaUobr8KG-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 06:28:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765CD16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 06:28:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4620943D41 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 06:28:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 14120 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2005 06:28:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by sarajevo with SMTP; 13 Feb 2005 06:28:53 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050213062852.DAXA1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:28:52 +0800 Message-ID: <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:30:59 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Paul A. Hoadley" References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <20050213055831.GB8532@grover.logicsquad.net> In-Reply-To: <20050213055831.GB8532@grover.logicsquad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 06:28:56 -0000 Hi, Paul A. Hoadley wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 01:26:48PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > >>No matter what FreeBSD will do, companies will not accept FreeBSD >>more as long as this structure stays like this. > > > What makes you draw this conclusion? > > My experience with companies here in south-east Asia and in Germany. If a company did not use FreeBSD anyway, FreeBSD was finally block-off with this reasoning. I never have had to go into the discussion regarding logos or names, it was just about the supporting structure behind. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 06:45:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8EA616A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 06:45:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from grover.logicsquad.net (ppp140-249.lns1.adl2.internode.on.net [150.101.140.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 007D243D3F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 06:45:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paulh@logicsquad.net) Received: (qmail 22619 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Feb 2005 06:45:00 -0000 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:15:00 +1030 From: "Paul A. Hoadley" To: Erich Dollansky Message-ID: <20050213064500.GD8532@grover.logicsquad.net> References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <20050213055831.GB8532@grover.logicsquad.net> <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jho1yZJdad60DJr+" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 06:45:03 -0000 --jho1yZJdad60DJr+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 02:30:59PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Paul A. Hoadley wrote: > >On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 01:26:48PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > >>No matter what FreeBSD will do, companies will not accept FreeBSD > >>more as long as this structure stays like this. > > > >What makes you draw this conclusion? > > My experience with companies here in south-east Asia and in Germany. > > If a company did not use FreeBSD anyway, FreeBSD was finally > block-off with this reasoning. > > I never have had to go into the discussion regarding logos or names, > it was just about the supporting structure behind. You've snipped a little severely there, and I think this is worth getting straight. The original context began with a reference to active committers voting for a core group: > >Also remember that the community (committers) voted them into > >"office" to represent and make decisions for us. > > Do not get me wrong here. I do not think that this is bad. > > I think that this is the reason for the acceptance as it is by > companies. > > No matter what FreeBSD will do, companies will not accept FreeBSD > more as long as this structure stays like this. So when you refer to the supporting structure here:=20 > I never have had to go into the discussion regarding logos or names, > it was just about the supporting structure behind. are you really saying that you have had experiences where FreeBSD was rejected when it became clear that the project was steered by a small group of developers elected from a larger group of developers? That is, was the rejection based on a description of the core group concept specifically, or some larger issue of support? --=20 Paul. w http://logicsquad.net/ h http://paul.hoadley.name/ --jho1yZJdad60DJr+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCDvds730Z/jysbzIRAs+hAJ4sZzJ2RKckF81sVsZphe7hc3fF0QCfedB8 C0oABce3L8b+YB6Zyw4OQp0= =jb/7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jho1yZJdad60DJr+-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 07:01:02 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA4B516A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:01:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ACE6343D45 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:00:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 18939 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2005 07:00:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by sarajevo with SMTP; 13 Feb 2005 07:00:58 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050213070057.DBVN1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:00:57 +0800 Message-ID: <420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:02:58 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Paul A. Hoadley" References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <20050213055831.GB8532@grover.logicsquad.net> <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg> <20050213064500.GD8532@grover.logicsquad.net> In-Reply-To: <20050213064500.GD8532@grover.logicsquad.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:01:02 -0000 Hi, Paul A. Hoadley wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 02:30:59PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > are you really saying that you have had experiences where FreeBSD was > rejected when it became clear that the project was steered by a small > group of developers elected from a larger group of developers? That > is, was the rejection based on a description of the core group concept > specifically, or some larger issue of support? > > I think with all that snipping - also done by me - my point got turned to something very different. The point is the lack of a company supporting FreeBSD like IBM does for Linux, is a reason for companies not to take FreeBSD as they cannot turn back to that company if things go wrong. All the potential user sees is currently this small group called 'core' which is obviously to small to give the same support like IBM - or any other huge company - could give. Even if the support would be locally handled by some small company, the potential customer just wants to be able to call the big boy in case something goes the wrong way. As mentioned before, I know that FreeBSD became what it is because core exists. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 07:15:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39C3B16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:15:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from grover.logicsquad.net (ppp140-249.lns1.adl2.internode.on.net [150.101.140.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C55E443D1D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:15:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paulh@logicsquad.net) Received: (qmail 23467 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Feb 2005 07:15:07 -0000 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:45:07 +1030 From: "Paul A. Hoadley" To: Erich Dollansky Message-ID: <20050213071507.GA23312@grover.logicsquad.net> References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <20050213055831.GB8532@grover.logicsquad.net> <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg> <20050213064500.GD8532@grover.logicsquad.net> <420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:15:10 -0000 --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 03:02:58PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > I think with all that snipping - also done by me - my point got > turned to something very different. I thought it might have. > The point is the lack of a company supporting FreeBSD like IBM does > for Linux, is a reason for companies not to take FreeBSD as they > cannot turn back to that company if things go wrong. OK, that point I can buy. :-) > As mentioned before, I know that FreeBSD became what it is because > core exists. I read your earlier post as saying it has been your experience that FreeBSD was rejected because of an objection to either the existence of, or the process of electing, a core group _per se_. Your actual point, as clarified above, doesn't strike me as controversial at all. Lack of formalised, accountable support is an enormous issue. --=20 Paul. w http://logicsquad.net/ h http://paul.hoadley.name/ --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCDv57730Z/jysbzIRAkGzAJ9Eg3yGy2AIa9WbKk6sk9QNKMHhVgCfQfvQ Dz0FJztOyYNJ6M/R+rToWe0= =+UCG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 07:41:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B606916A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:41:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F5D043D45 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:41:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050213074153i92004ulole>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:41:54 +0000 Message-ID: <420F04BE.9060404@nbritton.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:41:50 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Dollansky References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <20050213055831.GB8532@grover.logicsquad.net> <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg> <20050213064500.GD8532@grover.logicsquad.net> <420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> In-Reply-To: <420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:41:55 -0000 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > Paul A. Hoadley wrote: > >> On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 02:30:59PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: >> >> >> are you really saying that you have had experiences where FreeBSD was >> rejected when it became clear that the project was steered by a small >> group of developers elected from a larger group of developers? That >> is, was the rejection based on a description of the core group concept >> specifically, or some larger issue of support? >> >> > I think with all that snipping - also done by me - my point got turned > to something very different. > > The point is the lack of a company supporting FreeBSD like IBM does > for Linux, is a reason for companies not to take FreeBSD as they > cannot turn back to that company if things go wrong. > > All the potential user sees is currently this small group called > 'core' which is obviously to small to give the same support like IBM - > or any other huge company - could give. This part makes no sense. Core is not (and will never be) for end user support. This is like saying the executive officers of a company should man the help desk phones. It is your job to provide support for your end users or clients, the computer industry is now a service based industry. You have to sell them on yourself and the services you have to offer, FreeBSD is just a tool in your bag of tricks. till later.... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 07:55:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CEE716A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:55:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from grover.logicsquad.net (ppp140-249.lns1.adl2.internode.on.net [150.101.140.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BDBCC43D31 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:55:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paulh@logicsquad.net) Received: (qmail 29406 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Feb 2005 07:55:49 -0000 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:25:49 +1030 From: "Paul A. Hoadley" To: Nikolas Britton Message-ID: <20050213075549.GB23312@grover.logicsquad.net> References: <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <20050213055831.GB8532@grover.logicsquad.net> <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg> <20050213064500.GD8532@grover.logicsquad.net> <420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> <420F04BE.9060404@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="p4qYPpj5QlsIQJ0K" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <420F04BE.9060404@nbritton.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:55:52 -0000 --p4qYPpj5QlsIQJ0K Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 01:41:50AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Erich Dollansky wrote: > >The point is the lack of a company supporting FreeBSD like IBM does > >for Linux, is a reason for companies not to take FreeBSD as they > >cannot turn back to that company if things go wrong. > > > >All the potential user sees is currently this small group called > >'core' which is obviously to small to give the same support like > >IBM - or any other huge company - could give. >=20 > This part makes no sense. Core is not (and will never be) for end > user support. Erich knows that. His main point is in the first paragraph quoted above. > This is like saying the executive officers of a company should man > the help desk phones. It is your job to provide support for your end > users or clients, the computer industry is now a service based > industry. You have to sell them on yourself and the services you > have to offer, FreeBSD is just a tool in your bag of tricks. To whom is 'you' referring in the paragraph above? Erich's point is simply that the attractiveness of some incarnations of Linux to some companies can be explained by the observation that giants like IBM are offering support for it. --=20 Paul. w http://logicsquad.net/ h http://paul.hoadley.name/ --p4qYPpj5QlsIQJ0K Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCDwgF730Z/jysbzIRAkOEAJ9v1+UJ/2+/YOYEUDPsqewP3PwhZwCfTdPa pRCHHJuvGujnCAYYqlpawT8= =VAZe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --p4qYPpj5QlsIQJ0K-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 08:13:40 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908AF16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:13:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4483743D1D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:13:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 6FECE1C00098 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:13:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4D2F61C00091 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:13:39 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213081339316.4D2F61C00091@mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:13:38 +0059 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <782331035.20050213091338@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050213053614.32862.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <20050213053614.32862.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:13:40 -0000 stheg olloydson writes: > I don't think I follow you. FBSD having Core is a Good Thing. It's a good thing, but it's not a _corporate_ thing. Corporations don't like organizations that are run democratically. They like organizations that are run autocratically by autocrats of whom they approve (which, not coincidentally, includes corporations themselves). They like this because it centralizes control and allows them to know and predict how a given organization will behave. It limits accountability to a few identifiable individuals. Democratic organizations are unpredictable and unstable from a business standpoint. > All most every time I have presented it, I have been asked, "If it's > so good, why haven't I heard of it." Because FreeBSD isn't a consumer product, and consumer products are the only products that get wide media exposure. They probably haven't heard of YKK, either, but if they look at their own zippers, they'll see that all of them are made by Yoshida Kogyo Kabushikikaisha--"YKK" for short. Often key products used to produce many of the things we use every day are virtually unknown to anyone except the people who have a need to use them. A lot of sites run FreeBSD, but it's hard to see unless you explicitly look for the name of the operating system in their HTTP replies. > That's hard to explain, and it's very hard to convince someone that > something they've never saw mentioned in the computer press is any > good. The computer press they read was probably laid out using Quark XPress, but they've probably never heard of that, either. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 08:18:16 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F4DB16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:18:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207D043D2F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:18:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4EA8B1C0009B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:18:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2A0671C00094 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:18:15 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213081815172.2A0671C00094@mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:18:14 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1052054848.20050213091814@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420F04BE.9060404@nbritton.org> References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg><420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> <420F04BE.9060404@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 08:18:16 -0000 Nikolas Britton writes: > This part makes no sense. Core is not (and will never be) for end user > support. This is like saying the executive officers of a company should > man the help desk phones. It is your job to provide support for your end > users or clients, the computer industry is now a service based industry. That sounds even scarier to corporate management; best not to phrase it that way. Corporations want someone they can point to and someone they can call for full accountability. They don't like democratically elected groups, which they consider slightly communist, ironically. They don't feel comfortable with companies that can support a product but do not control it, particularly if nobody else clearly controls it, either. > You have to sell them on yourself and the services you have to offer, > FreeBSD is just a tool in your bag of tricks. You'd have to be quite a superstar to sell FreeBSD for a 10,000-seat rollout based on yourself and your services alone. You'd have to be immortal and immune to illness, too. Corporations don't want to hear that it all depends on just you. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 09:39:38 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328AA16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:39:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smp500.sitetronics.com (sitetronics.com [82.192.77.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8E5E43D4C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:39:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=UebiMiau) by smp500.sitetronics.com with asmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1D0GE1-0007x7-7d; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:39:33 +0100 Received: from client 82.72.18.239 for UebiMiau2.7 (webmail client); Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:39:33 -0000 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:39:33 -0000 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: "Erich Dollansky" , "Paul A. Hoadley" X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: UebiMiau 2.7.2 X-Original-IP: 82.72.18.239 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MSMail-Priority: Medium Importance: Medium Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Devon H. O'Dell" List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:39:38 -0000 --------- Original Message -------- From: Erich Dollansky To: Paul A. Hoadley Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... Date: 13/02/05 07:01 > > Hi, > > Paul A. Hoadley wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 02:30:59PM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > > > > are you really saying that you have had experiences where FreeBSD was > > rejected when it became clear that the project was steered by a small > > group of developers elected from a larger group of developers? That > > is, was the rejection based on a description of the core group concept > > specifically, or some larger issue of support? > > > > > I think with all that snipping - also done by me - my point got turned > to something very different. > > The point is the lack of a company supporting FreeBSD like IBM does for > Linux, is a reason for companies not to take FreeBSD as they cannot turn > back to that company if things go wrong. > > All the potential user sees is currently this small group called 'core' > which is obviously to small to give the same support like IBM - or any > other huge company - could give. > > Even if the support would be locally handled by some small company, the > potential customer just wants to be able to call the big boy in case > something goes the wrong way. We (OffMyServer) do commercially support FreeBSD for our customers. Commercially supporting every FreeBSD user is just not possible, though I know that wasn't your point. I just want to point out that there _are_ several companies out there who have interest in commercially supporting FreeBSD. > As mentioned before, I know that FreeBSD became what it is because core > exists. > > Erich --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 10:55:57 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6917116A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:55:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from a.mx.aegisnet.de (a.mx.aegisnet.de [213.238.36.211]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6891043D31 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:55:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) Received: (qmail 82219 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2005 10:56:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de) ([80.171.4.75]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 13 Feb 2005 10:56:16 -0000 Received: from galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) j1DAtrPn000861; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:55:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) Received: (from czimmer@localhost)j1DAtgsG000860; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:55:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) X-Authentication-Warning: galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de: czimmer set sender to cz@aegisnet.biz using -f Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:55:37 +0100 From: Carsten Zimmermann To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050213105537.GB743@galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de> References: <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> <420E7141.4020701@401.cx> <20050212212117.GA38925@fw.farid-hajji.net> <420E7A83.2070407@401.cx> <20050212222446.GA39237@fw.farid-hajji.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050212222446.GA39237@fw.farid-hajji.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: cpghost@cordula.ws Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:55:57 -0000 (just a minor side note) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 10:58:16 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A6916A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:58:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from a.mx.aegisnet.de (a.mx.aegisnet.de [213.238.36.211]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC30243D31 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:58:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) Received: (qmail 82266 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2005 10:58:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de) ([80.171.4.75]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 13 Feb 2005 10:58:37 -0000 Received: from galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) j1DAwEPn000877 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:58:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) Received: (from czimmer@localhost)j1DAwEp5000876 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:58:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from cz@aegisnet.biz) Resent-Message-Id: <200502131058.j1DAwEp5000876@galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de> X-Authentication-Warning: galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de: czimmer set sender to cz@aegisnet.biz using -f Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:55:37 +0100 From: Carsten Zimmermann To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050213105537.GB743@galadriel.bbk.hh.aegisnet.de> References: <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> <420E62DB.5050006@401.cx> <0892bf6a3cf2d8092e296157bbcb6148@czv.com> <420E7141.4020701@401.cx> <20050212212117.GA38925@fw.farid-hajji.net> <420E7A83.2070407@401.cx> <20050212222446.GA39237@fw.farid-hajji.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050212222446.GA39237@fw.farid-hajji.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Resent-From: cz@aegisnet.biz Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:58:07 +0100 Resent-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: cpghost@cordula.ws Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:58:16 -0000 (just a minor side note) > There's a lot of discussion going on about secondary stuff > like logos and so, while a lot of things needs to be fixed > in RELENG_5 (or CURRENT). But please read on. > After all, FreeBSD has always been a technical project and > one if its greatest strengths has been to stay away from > corporatism und marketroids. Things are really going down > the drain if we start to have discussions like these. > cpghost, after all, this is advocacy@ and not everyone is a programmer. I'd put it the other way round: let's keep the programmers do the *real* work (=enhance out beloved OS) and let *us* keep their mind from any such things we are discussing right here. I have to agree with Roger, totally - I don't see an impact on FreeBSD's quality if we choose to open ourselves to see to it more professionally (or at least _offer_ such a point of view for those seeking it). - Carsten -- Carsten Zimmermann mailto:cz@aegisnet.biz Aegis:Net IT-Dienstleistungen http://www.aegisnet.biz From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 13:13:51 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD21816A4CE; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:13:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B9C0F43D1F; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:13:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:13:10 +0100 In-Reply-To: References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr> <9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:13:49 +0100 To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: Giorgos Keramidas Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:13:51 -0000 On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:46 AM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > The html versions are now available from the following URLs: > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1e.html > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2e.html > > How does that look? > > There is also a patch http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/patch.txt but I'm > not sure if it's usable. At least it should provide you with a good > overview of the kind of modifications involved. I've updated the html based mockups to incorporate changes I made resulting from the recent discussions (mainly on the advocacy list). http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html Cheers, Chris chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 13:31:48 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68E616A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:31:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3AF43D41 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:31:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA9C26122 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:31:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 33777-07 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:31:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8F36121 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:31:45 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420F56D4.3090505@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:32:04 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg><420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> <420F04BE.9060404@nbritton.org> <1052054848.20050213091814@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <1052054848.20050213091814@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:31:48 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Nikolas Britton writes: > > >>This part makes no sense. Core is not (and will never be) for end user >>support. This is like saying the executive officers of a company should >>man the help desk phones. It is your job to provide support for your end >>users or clients, the computer industry is now a service based industry. > > > That sounds even scarier to corporate management; best not to phrase it > that way. > > Corporations want someone they can point to and someone they can call > for full accountability. They don't like democratically elected groups, > which they consider slightly communist, ironically. They don't feel > comfortable with companies that can support a product but do not control > it, particularly if nobody else clearly controls it, either. ... Yes, and you seem to know just what EVERY company wants. Isn't it odd that someone of your self-proclaimed knowledge of how ALL companies run, and what ALL companies want - has the time to post to lists? NOTE: I removed in the Reply to all, the FreeBSD-Questions list. This does not fit the criteria of that list. Then again, Anthony should know that with the posts going on in there... -- Best regards, Chris No matter what happens, there is always somebody who knew that it would. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 14:53:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C311C16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:53:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7836243D48 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:53:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 5E96D1C00090 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:53:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 429BE1C0008E for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:53:32 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213145332273.429BE1C0008E@mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:53:31 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <689992209.20050213155331@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420F56D4.3090505@makeworld.com> References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg><420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> <420F04BE.9060404@nbritton.org> <1052054848.20050213091814@wanadoo.fr> <420F56D4.3090505@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:53:33 -0000 Chris writes: > ... Yes, and you seem to know just what EVERY company wants. Not every company, just the majority. It's not rocket science. Anyone who has had to deal with corporate cultures in an IT framework knows these things. > Isn't it odd that someone of your self-proclaimed knowledge of how ALL > companies run, and what ALL companies want - has the time to post to > lists? I don't see any connection between the two. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 14:54:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74F416A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:54:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E53C43D41 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:54:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 041861C00099 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:54:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DE24D1C0008E for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:54:32 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213145432910.DE24D1C0008E@mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:54:32 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr> <9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:54:34 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn writes: > I've updated the html based mockups to incorporate changes I made > resulting from the recent discussions (mainly on the advocacy list). > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html Very nice, very clean. Much more professional-looking. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 14:57:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225BE16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:57:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 69AF443D45 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:57:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:56:37 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <82d64b378160bb673c1d1611d1bedd56@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:57:16 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:57:18 -0000 On Feb 13, 2005, at 1:16 AM, stheg olloydson wrote: > it was cried into the wilderness of rancor by Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav on > Fri Feb 11 09:30:50 2005: > >> Likewise, Beastie is a mascot, not a logo. In fact, it fails the >> primary and most important test of logoness: it is not exclusive to >> the FreeBSD project, but is shared by all BSD projects. It also = fails >> several other important tests of logoness: it is not under the = FreeBSD >> project's direct control (our use of it is subject to the whim and >> mercy of Kirk McKusick); it is not a registered trademark; it is >> probably too diluted already to even be eligible to be registered as = a >> trademark. > > FINALLY! A worthwhile point of view - not obscured by emotion or > reproduction mumbo-jumbo! These are extremely important points, the > most important being Beastie doesn't belong to FreeBSD in any way, > shape, or form. This fact renders all other arguments moot. Forget all > of the "tradition", "offense", "professional", etc. time-wasting, > bandwidth consuming crapola that's been posted on this topic. I submit > that whether or not replacing Beastie as FBSD's main symbol is a good > idea is irrelevant. It is _necessary_. We know that Kirk McKusick doesn't object to the use of the "BSD=20 Daemon" by the FreeBSD project. While the Beastie mascot isn't=20 exclusive to FreeBSD and instead is used as a mascot for BSD unixes in=20= general, a new FreeBSD Beastie logo is subject to the additional=20 copyright of its designer and can as such be exclusive to the FreeBSD=20 project. In combination with the word FreeBSD and with the approval of=20= the copyright holders, it could indeed even be registered as a=20 trademark. But FreeBSD is not a company, and for its marketing purposes=20= it doesn't require the protection of a trademark. So, replacing Beastie=20= as the FreeBSD logo is NOT necessary. For marketing purposes, the relationship with BSD Unix and the "BSD=20 Daemon" mascot is a big advantage of FreeBSD, even more so since the=20 OpenBSD and NetBSD forks have done away with it. FreeBSD should=20 position itself as the free BSD. Free of corporate agendas and bloating=20= like Solaris and MacOSX, free of specialising on niches like NetBSD and=20= OpenBSD. As such, it is the "most original" BSD flavour on the market=20 and also the most associated with Beastie. What FreeBSD needs is a new beastie logo and a professional design. If=20= you need a trademark, form a company and launch a distro - even if it=20 is just for marketing, sales and support purposes. The FreeBSD project=20= can't and should not do that part, but should not hinder others that=20 want to do that (which is why it needs a new logo and a professional=20 design). In addition, the FreeBSD project can provide corporations and=20= consultants with material such as white papers and success stories -=20 and encourage the media to cover FreeBSD in more detail. chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 15:05:19 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E597016A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:05:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECD043D2D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:05:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5A846129; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:05:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 34385-01; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:05:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBBC86123; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:05:14 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420F6CBE.2080600@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:05:34 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr> <9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:05:20 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: *Snip* > I've updated the html based mockups to incorporate changes I made > resulting from the recent discussions (mainly on the advocacy list). > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html > > Cheers, Chris I can't say anything negative on your work - then again, I'm not artistic at all. However, you are at least trying - and that deserves some recognition. -- Best regards, Chris Left to themselves, all things go from bad to worse. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 15:07:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF9816A4CE; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:07:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from redqueen.evilcoder-services.org (redqueen.evilcoder-services.org [217.148.169.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C69D743D39; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:07:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from remko@elvandar.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])5033B2954F4; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:07:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from redqueen.evilcoder-services.org ([127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12452-03; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:07:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (guardian.evilcoder.org [195.64.94.120]) 6660B2954ED; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:07:03 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <420F6D1F.1010000@elvandar.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:07:11 +0100 From: Remko Lodder User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr> <9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by the evilcoder-services.org maildomain cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:07:06 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:46 AM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > I've updated the html based mockups to incorporate changes I made > resulting from the recent discussions (mainly on the advocacy list). > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html > > Cheers, Chris > > chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 > Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ > Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum I really like this, gives a easy to look at feeling, very readable. So far this is my favo =) -- Kind regards, Remko Lodder ** remko@elvandar.org Reporter DSINET ** remko@DSINet.org Founder Tienervaders ** remko@tienervaders.org FreeBSD Documentation Project ** remko@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 15:18:12 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376F316A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:18:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 699D243D45 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:18:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:17:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: <420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org><20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com><20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg><420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg><20050213055831.GB8532@grover.logicsquad.net><420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg><20050213064500.GD8532@grover.logicsquad.net> <420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <82067eb44fc2738952eaf5bdffa5a05c@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:18:10 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:18:12 -0000 On Feb 13, 2005, at 8:02 AM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > The point is the lack of a company supporting FreeBSD like IBM does > for Linux, is a reason for companies not to take FreeBSD as they > cannot turn back to that company if things go wrong. Solaris and MacOSX are the equivalents for this in the BSD world. I first ask my customers to decide if they want to deploy on BSD, Linux or Windows. After that, we talk about the exact flavour to use. If they take my advice in the first round, it is BSD. If they don't need Solaris, MacOSX, OpenBSD or NetBSD for a specific reason then there is no reason not to use FreeBSD. /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 16:09:01 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E5DD16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:09:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974A143D2F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:09:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1DG8q6g014430; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:08:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <420F7BF5.6010602@401.cx> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:10:29 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Dollansky References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <20050213022605.GA24426@xor.obsecurity.org> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <20050213055831.GB8532@grover.logicsquad.net> <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg> <20050213064500.GD8532@grover.logicsquad.net> <420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> In-Reply-To: <420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:09:01 -0000 Erich Dollansky wrote: [doing some snipping again] > > The point is the lack of a company supporting FreeBSD like IBM > does for Linux, is a reason for companies not to take FreeBSD > as they cannot turn back to that company if things go wrong. > > All the potential user sees is currently this small group > called 'core' which is obviously to small to give the same > support like IBM - or any other huge company - could give. Linux is controlled by Linus Torvalds, who clearly is outnumbered by core by an order of magnitute. I fail to see why core directing the project makes it impossible to gain support from IBM or any other giant. > Even if the support would be locally handled by some small > company, the potential customer just wants to be able to call > the big boy in case something goes the wrong way. Very true. And to get some big boy to stand behind FreeBSD, I think its vital that the projects improves its image from teenage playground to industry strenght software. > > As mentioned before, I know that FreeBSD became what it is > because core exists. Also true. I think the development model of FreeBSD works very well and see no need to change anything. But I do think that on the surface, FreeBSD does a helluva job hiding how organized and professional it really is, and I would like to change that. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 16:19:59 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF28616A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:19:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19CAA43D1F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:19:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1DGJu08014554; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:19:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <420F7E8D.2080307@401.cx> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:21:33 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg><420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> <420F04BE.9060404@nbritton.org> <1052054848.20050213091814@wanadoo.fr> <420F56D4.3090505@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: <420F56D4.3090505@makeworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:19:59 -0000 Chris wrote: > Anthony Atkielski wrote: [snip] >> Corporations want someone they can point to and someone they can call >> for full accountability. They don't like democratically elected groups, >> which they consider slightly communist, ironically. They don't feel >> comfortable with companies that can support a product but do not control >> it, particularly if nobody else clearly controls it, either. > > ... Yes, and you seem to know just what EVERY company wants. Isn't it > odd that someone of your self-proclaimed knowledge of how ALL companies > run, and what ALL companies want - has the time to post to lists? Its not exactly a big secret what companies want. I know what they want, most of the people I work with knows what they want, the whole idea of the company I work for is to try and provide atleast a part of what some companies want. They want something that works, and when it doesnt work, they want to know who to blame. Big players like IBM is willing to take on the roll as the one to blame, in exchange for compensation of course, and that is what FreeBSD needs. A big company that is willing to take the blame if something fails. But as long as we look like a hobby project no big company will ever be interested in taking on that role for us. Like it or not, but being professional is not enough, you have to look professional too. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 16:45:07 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E3EA16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:45:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80CD43D1F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:45:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E232A1C000B1 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:45:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A08851C0009F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:45:05 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213164505657.A08851C0009F@mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:45:05 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1318262351.20050213174505@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420F7BF5.6010602@401.cx> References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg><420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> <420F7BF5.6010602@401.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:45:07 -0000 Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg writes: > Linux is controlled by Linus Torvalds, who clearly is outnumbered > by core by an order of magnitute. I fail to see why core > directing the project makes it impossible to gain support from > IBM or any other giant. It's not that it makes it impossible to get support, it's just that the support isn't there right now, which may worry potential users. And since Linux is controlled by Linus, that provides a target to aim for if something goes wrong. Large customers experiencing problems with Linux could potentially make life very unpleasant for Linus, which in turn is an incentive for him to remain disciplined and careful, which in turn reassures large customers. Essentially large customers want accountability and responsibility. They want people who will respond if something goes wrong, and they want people who are at risk if something goes wrong, because that risk motivates them to act to fix any problems that arise. These elements are lacking with FreeBSD, because nobody in particular seems to be obligated to respond if something goes wrong, and nobody in particular seems to be at any specific risk if he or she fails to fix a problem. This means that large customers must take a lot of risk themselves without any compensating risk on the part of the organization supplying the software. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 16:48:36 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7336D16A4D0 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:48:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq2.home.nl (smtpq2.home.nl [213.51.128.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE7B43D53 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:48:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.134] (port=59615 helo=smtp3.home.nl) by smtpq2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0MvC-00089o-IV for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:48:34 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:33952 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0MvB-00051E-10 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:48:33 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1318262351.20050213174505@wanadoo.fr> References: <20050213004204.GA91920@xor.obsecurity.org> <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <420EDF52.1090408@nbritton.org> <420EE518.9070605@pacific.net.sg> <420EF423.7020609@pacific.net.sg> <420EFBA2.4000106@pacific.net.sg> <420F7BF5.6010602@401.cx> <1318262351.20050213174505@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: SiteTronics Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:48:32 +0100 Message-Id: <1108313312.4054.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:48:36 -0000 On Sun, 2005-02-13 at 17:45 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg writes: > > > Linux is controlled by Linus Torvalds, who clearly is outnumbered > > by core by an order of magnitute. I fail to see why core > > directing the project makes it impossible to gain support from > > IBM or any other giant. > > It's not that it makes it impossible to get support, it's just that the > support isn't there right now, which may worry potential users. > > And since Linux is controlled by Linus, that provides a target to aim > for if something goes wrong. Large customers experiencing problems with > Linux could potentially make life very unpleasant for Linus, which in > turn is an incentive for him to remain disciplined and careful, which in > turn reassures large customers. > > Essentially large customers want accountability and responsibility. They > want people who will respond if something goes wrong, and they want > people who are at risk if something goes wrong, because that risk > motivates them to act to fix any problems that arise. These elements are > lacking with FreeBSD, because nobody in particular seems to be obligated > to respond if something goes wrong, and nobody in particular seems to be > at any specific risk if he or she fails to fix a problem. This means > that large customers must take a lot of risk themselves without any > compensating risk on the part of the organization supplying the > software. Sorry, but this simply isn't true. Nobody from Linux is required to respond to your problems, unless you've paid a company (IBM, RedHat, etc) to do so. If this is precisely what you mean and you think there is no support for FreeBSD whatsoever, I reiterate: there are several companies, inclusive Offmyserver, who provide FreeBSD support for their customers. Please stop attaching these threads to questions@; they're off-topic there. --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 18:24:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0798C16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:24:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47CB43D49 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:24:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050213182408i92004uc96e>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:24:08 +0000 Message-ID: <420F9B45.2020806@nbritton.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:24:05 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <420ED112.80401@pacific.net.sg> <20050213053614.32862.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> <782331035.20050213091338@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <782331035.20050213091338@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:24:10 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: >stheg olloydson writes: > > > >>I don't think I follow you. FBSD having Core is a Good Thing. >> >> > >It's a good thing, but it's not a _corporate_ thing. Corporations don't >like organizations that are run democratically. They like organizations >that are run autocratically by autocrats of whom they approve (which, >not coincidentally, includes corporations themselves). They like this >because it centralizes control and allows them to know and predict how a >given organization will behave. It limits accountability to a few >identifiable individuals. Democratic organizations are unpredictable >and unstable from a business standpoint. > > Now we're just getting into the politics of government structure. I (and most others) have never liked dictatorial rule, even if it is benevolent, because we have no say in the matter. The other problem is that people with power (large companies, autocrats, etc.) can easily exert there control onto this person, this is never a good thing for the commonwealth. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 18:31:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2B016A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:31:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 242B243D1D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:31:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id F2811530C; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:31:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 3E5945308; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:30:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D31D333C1B; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:30:34 +0100 (CET) To: stheg olloydson References: <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:30:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> (stheg olloydson's message of "Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:10:55 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: <86wttcjos5.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=disabled version=3.0.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: kris@obsecurity.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:31:19 -0000 stheg olloydson writes: > Core being Core will do what they think is best, and they have every > right to. That's not my point. My point is the discussion took place in > secret. The discussion took place on a mailing list with over 300 subscribers. Hardly a conspiracy. > What I am suggesting is that when certain discussions take > place that they be publicly readable. The US and UK (other countries > too, I'm sure) have television cameras in their legislative chambers so > those who are interested can hear pro and con arguments on some issues > by those making the decisions. The reason for this is that the legislators are accountable to the public that elected them. FreeBSD committers are not elected by - and therefore not accountable to - the user base. Here's how FreeBSD works: we, the committers, write and maintain an operating system. In our magnanimity, we allow you, the users, to use and modify it to your heart's content, and we even try to help you when you get stuck. Once in a while, we get to like one of you so much we make him or her one of us. The only decision left to you, the users, is whether or not to use our OS. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 18:45:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9629616A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:45:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41A0B43D41 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:45:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20050213184447i9100k56hve>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:45:02 +0000 Message-ID: <420FA01B.6000807@nbritton.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:44:43 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> <82d64b378160bb673c1d1611d1bedd56@czv.com> In-Reply-To: <82d64b378160bb673c1d1611d1bedd56@czv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:45:03 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > While the Beastie mascot isn't exclusive to FreeBSD and instead is > used as a mascot for BSD unixes in general, a new FreeBSD Beastie logo > is subject to the additional copyright of its designer and can as such > be exclusive to the FreeBSD project. In combination with the word > FreeBSD and with the approval of the copyright holders, it could > indeed even be registered as a trademark. But FreeBSD is not a > company, and for its marketing purposes it doesn't require the > protection of a trademark. So, replacing Beastie as the FreeBSD logo > is NOT necessary. The FreeBSD Foundation was setup was for thing such as this, currently the 'FreeBSD' trademark is under the control of the foundation. Also I feel that the designer of this new logo should transfer copyright holder status to FreeBSD or the Foundation. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 19:36:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB7316A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:36:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8911543D46 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:36:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:35:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: <420FA01B.6000807@nbritton.org> References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com><82d64b378160bb673c1d1611d1bedd56@czv.com> <420FA01B.6000807@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <02d9fb3bd6d983e230c3568cfaf8948f@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:36:31 +0100 To: Nikolas Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:36:34 -0000 On Feb 13, 2005, at 7:44 PM, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > >> While the Beastie mascot isn't exclusive to FreeBSD and instead is >> used as a mascot for BSD unixes in general, a new FreeBSD Beastie >> logo is subject to the additional copyright of its designer and can >> as such be exclusive to the FreeBSD project. In combination with the >> word FreeBSD and with the approval of the copyright holders, it could >> indeed even be registered as a trademark. But FreeBSD is not a >> company, and for its marketing purposes it doesn't require the >> protection of a trademark. So, replacing Beastie as the FreeBSD logo >> is NOT necessary. > > The FreeBSD Foundation was setup was for thing such as this, currently > the 'FreeBSD' trademark is under the control of the foundation. Also I > feel that the designer of this new logo should transfer copyright > holder status to FreeBSD or the Foundation. As far as I know that's a trademark for the word FreeBSD - not a logo trademark. Even a company would usually only go through the trouble of registering a logo trademark if it can't get protection for the word because it is to generic. Beastie itself of course should continue to belong to the entire BSD community. The FreeBSD foundation "only" owns the word FreeBSD - but that's entirely sufficient. /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 20:27:02 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575D916A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:27:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0EA43D46 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:27:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050213202654i92004u6gfe>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:27:00 +0000 Message-ID: <420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:26:51 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chris@czv.com References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr> <9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:27:02 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn writes: >I've updated the html based mockups to incorporate changes I made >resulting from the recent discussions (mainly on the advocacy list). > >http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html >http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html > > I see you've been pugging way at it sense your last post on www, I like even more then before... but still, respectfully, I don't like your logo(s) :-) and here's why (constructive criticism): *FreeBSD is FreeBSD not FREEBSD. Also "FreeBSD" is trademarked the other is not. *beastie.gif, the beastie in this logo looks disturbed and threatening. I get anxious and agitated when I look at him, make him more happy, playful, cute, etc.... http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/glenda.html *freehorns.gif, looks like a Viking helmet. *freehornsntail.gif, looks like a Viking with a pointy tail. freehorns2.gif and freehornsntail2.gif are the ones I like most out of the bunch. ----------- http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehornsntail.gif http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns2.gif http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehornsntail2.gif From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 20:29:16 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C3B716A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:29:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E678543D1D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:29:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 48F041C000A4 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:29:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2F6D71C00085 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:29:15 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213202915194.2F6D71C00085@mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:29:15 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <424381734.20050213212915@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <86wttcjos5.fsf@xps.des.no> References: <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <86wttcjos5.fsf@xps.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:29:16 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: > Here's how FreeBSD works: we, the committers, write and maintain an > operating system. In our magnanimity, we allow you, the users, to use > and modify it to your heart's content, and we even try to help you > when you get stuck. Once in a while, we get to like one of you so > much we make him or her one of us. The only decision left to you, the > users, is whether or not to use our OS. I don't think you're making any friends among UNIX veterans. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 20:56:05 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D80E16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:56:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3E2743D2D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:56:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050213205601i92004ttv2e>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:56:02 +0000 Message-ID: <420FBEDE.4000608@nbritton.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:55:58 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com><82d64b378160bb673c1d1611d1bedd56@czv.com> <420FA01B.6000807@nbritton.org> <02d9fb3bd6d983e230c3568cfaf8948f@czv.com> In-Reply-To: <02d9fb3bd6d983e230c3568cfaf8948f@czv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:56:05 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > On Feb 13, 2005, at 7:44 PM, Nikolas Britton wrote: > >> Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >> >>> While the Beastie mascot isn't exclusive to FreeBSD and instead is >>> used as a mascot for BSD unixes in general, a new FreeBSD Beastie >>> logo is subject to the additional copyright of its designer and can >>> as such be exclusive to the FreeBSD project. In combination with the >>> word FreeBSD and with the approval of the copyright holders, it >>> could indeed even be registered as a trademark. But FreeBSD is not a >>> company, and for its marketing purposes it doesn't require the >>> protection of a trademark. So, replacing Beastie as the FreeBSD logo >>> is NOT necessary. >> >> >> The FreeBSD Foundation was setup was for thing such as this, >> currently the 'FreeBSD' trademark is under the control of the >> foundation. Also I feel that the designer of this new logo should >> transfer copyright holder status to FreeBSD or the Foundation. > > > As far as I know that's a trademark for the word FreeBSD - not a logo > trademark. Even a company would usually only go through the trouble of > registering a logo trademark if it can't get protection for the word > because it is to generic. Beastie itself of course should continue to > belong to the entire BSD community. The FreeBSD foundation "only" owns > the word FreeBSD - but that's entirely sufficient. > > /czv > I think It can be both... when the symbols F, r, e, B, S, and D are combined together to form "FreeBSD" is what's trademarked and the medium is Irrelavant as long as you can see it. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 21:09:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3566016A52D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:09:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4D74743D2F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:09:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:09:08 +0100 In-Reply-To: <420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> <420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:09:47 +0100 To: Nikolas Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:09:54 -0000 On Feb 13, 2005, at 9:26 PM, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn writes: > >> I've updated the html based mockups to incorporate changes I made >> resulting from the recent discussions (mainly on the advocacy list). >> >> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html >> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html >> > I see you've been pugging way at it sense your last post on www, I > like even more then before... but still, respectfully, I don't like > your logo(s) :-) and here's why (constructive criticism): > > *FreeBSD is FreeBSD not FREEBSD. Also "FreeBSD" is trademarked the > other is not. You're referring to the US/UK/German/Japanese trademark the FreeBSD foundation recently got from Windriver, correct? Is that now a logo trademark or a word trademark? Word trademarks never differentiate between small and capitalized letters. If the trademark is limited to just the "FreeBSD" version then it isn't a word trademark. > *beastie.gif, the beastie in this logo looks disturbed and > threatening. I get anxious and agitated when I look at him, make him > more happy, playful, cute, etc.... > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/glenda.html I've since simplified the new Beastie silhouette even more, which certainly doesn't help to make him more happy, playful or cute. Not sure if I can help with that. > *freehorns.gif, looks like a Viking helmet. > > *freehornsntail.gif, looks like a Viking with a pointy tail. > > freehorns2.gif and freehornsntail2.gif are the ones I like most out of > the bunch. The point of all these logos was to show that while it would be possible to go in that typical "more corporate" direction, ultimately no such logo can beat Beastie. Here are some more... http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freecrap5.gif http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freecrap4.gif http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freecrap3.gif http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freecrap2.gif ...and my favorite of the bunch... http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdlogo.gif But, in my opinion, none of them can beat this one: http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsd.gif Chris chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 21:15:38 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 312D916A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:15:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D2B743D1D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:15:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:14:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: <420FBEDE.4000608@nbritton.org> References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com><82d64b378160bb673c1d1611d1bedd56@czv.com><420FA01B.6000807@nbritton.org> <02d9fb3bd6d983e230c3568cfaf8948f@czv.com> <420FBEDE.4000608@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <233b173e2a4026993c6ce9de25d560ae@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:15:35 +0100 To: Nikolas Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:15:38 -0000 On Feb 13, 2005, at 9:55 PM, Nikolas Britton wrote: > I think It can be both... when the symbols F, r, e, B, S, and D are > combined together to form "FreeBSD" is what's trademarked and the > medium is Irrelavant as long as you can see it. If that is the case, would this version... http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdlogo.gif ...with the capitalized but smaller letters be protected by that trademark? /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 21:28:58 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9049B16A500 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:28:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3217443D48 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:28:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F916122 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:28:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 35994-07 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:28:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3782F6121 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:28:55 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420FC6AC.1000004@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:29:16 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20050213021055.69766.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> <86wttcjos5.fsf@xps.des.no> <424381734.20050213212915@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <424381734.20050213212915@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:28:58 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: > > >>Here's how FreeBSD works: we, the committers, write and maintain an >>operating system. In our magnanimity, we allow you, the users, to use >>and modify it to your heart's content, and we even try to help you >>when you get stuck. Once in a while, we get to like one of you so >>much we make him or her one of us. The only decision left to you, the >>users, is whether or not to use our OS. > > > I don't think you're making any friends among UNIX veterans. > Anthony - this is directly to you. Will you STOP posting arguments/points of view to FreeBSD-Questions? I'm sure you as a Windows User, have the ability to remove certain lists from the Reply to all. Or - are you just ignorant to the fact that there is a way of doing this? -- Best regards, Chris The label "all new," "completely new" or "great news" means the price went way way up. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 21:39:41 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62F116A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:39:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC0543D39 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:39:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id DFB84530C; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:39:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 2D8B35308; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:39:09 +0100 (CET) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CA6B933C1B; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:39:08 +0100 (CET) To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> <82d64b378160bb673c1d1611d1bedd56@czv.com> <420FA01B.6000807@nbritton.org> <02d9fb3bd6d983e230c3568cfaf8948f@czv.com> <420FBEDE.4000608@nbritton.org> <233b173e2a4026993c6ce9de25d560ae@czv.com> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:39:08 +0100 In-Reply-To: <233b173e2a4026993c6ce9de25d560ae@czv.com> (Chris Zumbrunn's message of "Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:15:35 +0100") Message-ID: <86ekfkjg1v.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=disabled version=3.0.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:39:41 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn writes: > If that is the case, would this version... > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdlogo.gif > > ...with the capitalized but smaller letters be protected by that > trademark? Word marks are case-insensitive. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 21:45:14 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D02C16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:45:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 433E643D39 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:45:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92BDE6122 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:45:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36204-03 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:45:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D660A6121 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:44:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:45:16 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD - Advocacy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:45:14 -0000 Ok - I just noticed something. Whenever Anthony posts, he has in the Reply To: field, FreeBSD-Questions. Why is that? What's up with that? -- Best regards, Chris To get a loan, you must first prove you don't need it. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 21:50:17 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E980616A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:50:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D09143D2D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:50:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA186122 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:50:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36204-05 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:50:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3116121 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:50:14 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420FCBAB.1040305@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:50:35 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: FreeBSD - Advocacy References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:50:18 -0000 Chris wrote: > Ok - I just noticed something. Whenever Anthony posts, he has in the > Reply To: field, FreeBSD-Questions. > > Why is that? What's up with that? > > Actually - it's in every single one of his posts. What's going on with that? -- Best regards, Chris If a situation requires undivided attention, it will occur simultaneously with a compelling distraction. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 21:50:53 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C36316A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:50:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E1F43D39 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:50:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2373) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0RVE-0005ry-5k; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:42:04 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HXN9T5>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:10:48 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641A18@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'Sander Vesik' MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.0: Re: Benchmark: NetBSD 2.0 beats FreeBSD 5.3 in server performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:50:53 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 10:23:47 -0800 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:50:53 -0000 > From: Sander Vesik [mailto:sander.vesik@gmail.com] > > No but many people run servers on single CPU machines and performance > on those matters too. Just because a benchmark result is not what you > might like it to tell you doesn't mean its not valid or that it > doesn't highlight valid concerns. Performance is not all that matters. In most server environments it isn't even the highest priority. By choice I drive a Honda Civic instead of a Ferrari. To some people this sounds like stupidity, and they think I should be driving whichever vehicle has the highest horsepower, torque and acceleration. Heck, I've even had fellow Honda owners berate me for not upgrading to the EX model with its marginally larger engine! FreeBSD has been taking a lot of hits recently from advocates of other BSDs, especially on Slashdot, and I think it's time we all sit back and breath in some fresh perspective. These benchmarks are good to pointing out areas FreeBSD may wish to consider improving, but they shouldn't be intrepreted as faults with FreeBSD. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 21:54:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9931416A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:54:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.199.47.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F80F43D41 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:54:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AFF1251DF4; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:54:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:54:30 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Chris Message-ID: <20050213215428.GA42426@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <420FCBAB.1040305@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <420FCBAB.1040305@makeworld.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: FreeBSD - Advocacy Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:54:35 -0000 --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 03:50:35PM -0600, Chris wrote: > Chris wrote: > >Ok - I just noticed something. Whenever Anthony posts, he has in the=20 > >Reply To: field, FreeBSD-Questions. > > > >Why is that? What's up with that? > > > > >=20 > Actually - it's in every single one of his posts. What's going on with th= at? Sounds like mailing list charter abuse to me. Kris --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCD8yUWry0BWjoQKURAlZ3AJ48I5xwHsaHLcRfIJvkxHwfwz7AogCg5H7q WPJQdLgo/Sb9/CbVLhy1V6Y= =Qvbh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 21:56:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 686B616A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:56:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DA543D31 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:56:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675086129; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:56:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36201-08; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:56:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7550E6123; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:56:32 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420FCD25.2030901@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:56:53 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <420FCBAB.1040305@makeworld.com> <20050213215428.GA42426@xor.obsecurity.org> In-Reply-To: <20050213215428.GA42426@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: FreeBSD - Advocacy Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:56:35 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 03:50:35PM -0600, Chris wrote: > >>Chris wrote: >> >>>Ok - I just noticed something. Whenever Anthony posts, he has in the >>>Reply To: field, FreeBSD-Questions. >>> >>>Why is that? What's up with that? >>> >>> >> >>Actually - it's in every single one of his posts. What's going on with that? > > > Sounds like mailing list charter abuse to me. > > Kris I tend to agree - now, if someone would act on it. -- Best regards, Chris If a situation requires undivided attention, it will occur simultaneously with a compelling distraction. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:00:30 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97C9E16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:00:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF47A43D31 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:00:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:59:48 +0100 In-Reply-To: <86ekfkjg1v.fsf@xps.des.no> References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com><82d64b378160bb673c1d1611d1bedd56@czv.com><420FA01B.6000807@nbritton.org><02d9fb3bd6d983e230c3568cfaf8948f@czv.com><420FBEDE.4000608@nbritton.org><233b173e2a4026993c6ce9de25d560ae@czv.com> <86ekfkjg1v.fsf@xps.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <33431a18ed11d408fc0e740e9beef811@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:00:15 +0100 To: des@des.no (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:00:30 -0000 On Feb 13, 2005, at 10:39 PM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn writes: >> If that is the case, would this version... >> >> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdlogo.gif >> >> ...with the capitalized but smaller letters be protected by that >> trademark? > > Word marks are case-insensitive. That's what I thought. You can register a "word" case sensitive, but=20 then it is a logo. But maybe that's how it was registered. /czv= From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:06:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16CA216A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:06:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C23D043D48 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:06:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7DC291C0008F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:06:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 604EB1C00083 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:06:54 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213220654394.604EB1C00083@mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:06:54 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <692866949.20050213230654@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <233b173e2a4026993c6ce9de25d560ae@czv.com> References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com><82d64b378160bb673c1d1611d1bedd56@czv.com><420FA01B.6000807@nbritton.org> <420FBEDE.4000608@nbritton.org> <233b173e2a4026993c6ce9de25d560ae@czv.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:06:56 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn writes: > ...with the capitalized but smaller letters be protected by that > trademark? Word trademarks in the U.S. are independent of capitalization. It is worth noting that the FREEBSD trademark applies only to collections of computer programs on CD-ROMs. No mention is made of operating systems or of the computer programs themselves separate from the CD-ROMs. This may be a critical oversight. The trademark for Linux clearly states that it designates a computer operating system. Put more simply, what this means is that the name FREEBSD to designate a computer operating system has not been registered as a trademark (in the U.S.). Perhaps nobody has ever bothered to look it up. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:17:46 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B583C16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:17:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F04443D39 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:17:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 0E6CF530C; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:17:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 04EF65308; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:17:11 +0100 (CET) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A746D33C1B; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:17:11 +0100 (CET) To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> <82d64b378160bb673c1d1611d1bedd56@czv.com> <420FA01B.6000807@nbritton.org> <02d9fb3bd6d983e230c3568cfaf8948f@czv.com> <420FBEDE.4000608@nbritton.org> <233b173e2a4026993c6ce9de25d560ae@czv.com> <86ekfkjg1v.fsf@xps.des.no> <33431a18ed11d408fc0e740e9beef811@czv.com> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:17:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: <33431a18ed11d408fc0e740e9beef811@czv.com> (Chris Zumbrunn's message of "Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:00:15 +0100") Message-ID: <86650wjeag.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=disabled version=3.0.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:17:46 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn writes: > On Feb 13, 2005, at 10:39 PM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > Word marks are case-insensitive. > That's what I thought. You can register a "word" case sensitive, but > then it is a logo. But maybe that's how it was registered. It only takes a minute to find out on http://www.uspto.gov/. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:23:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7174E16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:23:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1ADE43D1F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:23:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20050213222347i9100k52d8e>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:23:48 +0000 Message-ID: <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:23:43 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> <420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:23:49 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > On Feb 13, 2005, at 9:26 PM, Nikolas Britton wrote: > >> Chris Zumbrunn writes: >> >>> I've updated the html based mockups to incorporate changes I made >>> resulting from the recent discussions (mainly on the advocacy list). >>> >>> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html >>> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html >>> >> I see you've been pugging way at it sense your last post on www, I >> like even more then before... but still, respectfully, I don't like >> your logo(s) :-) and here's why (constructive criticism): >> >> *FreeBSD is FreeBSD not FREEBSD. Also "FreeBSD" is trademarked the >> other is not. > > > You're referring to the US/UK/German/Japanese trademark the FreeBSD > foundation recently got from Windriver, correct? Is that now a logo > trademark or a word trademark? Word trademarks never differentiate > between small and capitalized letters. If the trademark is limited to > just the "FreeBSD" version then it isn't a word trademark. I don't know, see my other post to you on what my thinking was. > >> *beastie.gif, the beastie in this logo looks disturbed and >> threatening. I get anxious and agitated when I look at him, make him >> more happy, playful, cute, etc.... >> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/glenda.html > > > I've since simplified the new Beastie silhouette even more, which > certainly doesn't help to make him more happy, playful or cute. Not > sure if I can help with that. Well the main thing(s) I don't like is he has a beer gut (beastie.gif) and the size and shape (nose/mouth area) of his head is werid. also the size of his pitch fork was/is almost bigger then him. > >> *freehorns.gif, looks like a Viking helmet. >> >> *freehornsntail.gif, looks like a Viking with a pointy tail. >> >> freehorns2.gif and freehornsntail2.gif are the ones I like most out >> of the bunch. > > > The point of all these logos was to show that while it would be > possible to go in that typical "more corporate" direction, ultimately > no such logo can beat Beastie. Here are some more... > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freecrap5.gif > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freecrap4.gif I like 4... Can you humor me and make some mockups of some of the layouts here? (I'm useless without photoshop and now that I run 100% BSD at home I don't have it, until I get wine/ps working): http://www.nbritton.org/uploads/freebsdlogos1.png > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freecrap3.gif > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freecrap2.gif > > ...and my favorite of the bunch... > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdlogo.gif > > But, in my opinion, none of them can beat this one: > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsd.gif > > Chris > > chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 > Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ > Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:29:22 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332B216A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:29:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp7.wanadoo.fr (smtp7.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA5F43D1F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:29:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0702.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id BA2C31800096 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:29:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0702.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 991D91800085 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:29:20 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213222920627.991D91800085@mwinf0702.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:29:14 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:29:22 -0000 Chris writes: > Ok - I just noticed something. Whenever Anthony posts, he has in the > Reply To: field, FreeBSD-Questions. > > Why is that? What's up with that? I put it that way in my reply template, since I normally reply to the list, and not to the individual poster, and I get tired of cutting and pasting the correct address. You're asking about how I use my e-mail program to reply to a list other than this one. What were you saying about off-topic posts? -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:30:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41EB316A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:30:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp7.wanadoo.fr (smtp7.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE6843D45 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:30:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0704.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2238D1400090 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:30:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0704.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 01C38140008C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:30:33 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213223034731.01C38140008C@mwinf0704.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:30:33 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <184837505.20050213233033@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641A18@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641A18@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 2.0: Re: Benchmark: NetBSD 2.0 beats FreeBSD 5.3 in server performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:30:35 -0000 Johnson David writes: > FreeBSD has been taking a lot of hits recently from advocates of other BSDs, > especially on Slashdot, and I think it's time we all sit back and breath in > some fresh perspective. These benchmarks are good to pointing out areas > FreeBSD may wish to consider improving, but they shouldn't be intrepreted as > faults with FreeBSD. When one system crashes and FreeBSD continues to run, the performance of FreeBSD is infinitely greater than that of the system that crashed. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:31:09 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B8416A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:31:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp7.wanadoo.fr (smtp7.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39BA43D2D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:31:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0707.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id F0BB6180008D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:31:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0707.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D876A1800082 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:31:06 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213223106886.D876A1800082@mwinf0707.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:31:06 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1111239252.20050213233106@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <33431a18ed11d408fc0e740e9beef811@czv.com> References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com><82d64b378160bb673c1d1611d1bedd56@czv.com><420FA01B.6000807@nbritton.org><02d9fb3bd6d983e230c3568cfaf8948f@czv.com><420FBEDE.4000608@nbritton.org><233b173e2a4026993c6ce9de25d560ae@czv.com> <33431a18ed11d408fc0e740e9beef811@czv.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:31:09 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn writes: > That's what I thought. You can register a "word" case sensitive, but > then it is a logo. But maybe that's how it was registered. No, it was registered as a word mark. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:33:42 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15EA416A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:33:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B396343D1D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:33:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190BC6122 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:33:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36386-09 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:33:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061966121 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:33:39 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420FD5D8.1090101@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:34:00 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:33:42 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Chris writes: > > >>Ok - I just noticed something. Whenever Anthony posts, he has in the >>Reply To: field, FreeBSD-Questions. >> >>Why is that? What's up with that? > > > I put it that way in my reply template, since I normally reply to the > list, and not to the individual poster, and I get tired of cutting and > pasting the correct address. > > You're asking about how I use my e-mail program to reply to a list other > than this one. What were you saying about off-topic posts? > What your doing, is wrong. It's ignorant, and against the charter of the lists. Please halt NOTE - I have taken the Reply To: FreeBSD-Questions off the reply because you are being ignorant. -- Best regards, Chris If anything can't go wrong it will. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:39:14 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44D8D16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:39:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007C243D2F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:39:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 308561C00083 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:39:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 095531C00091 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:39:13 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213223913383.095531C00091@mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:39:12 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <65856299.20050213233912@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:39:14 -0000 Anthony Atkielski writes: > I put it that way in my reply template, since I normally reply to the > list, and not to the individual poster, and I get tired of cutting and > pasting the correct address. Actually, that's something different. My reply template directs the reply to the list, rather than to the sender, so that I don't have to change the destination address for every post (I never send replies to list messages to the original poster, since that creates a lot of overhead for the original poster and a lot of duplicated text for the reply). The "reply-to" is set by my e-mail program to ensure that replies to my posts go to the list by default (of course, a sender can change that address). I do this because I keep list discussions separate from private e-mail; private replies that are also copied to the list simply go into my bitbucket and waste bandwidth by duplicating a message (most people reply with "reply all" which always sends two messages). If a reply is sent _only_ to me, that's different, and it should be routed normally to me by my filters. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:40:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C33D16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:40:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A661A43D41 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:40:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF776122 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:40:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36593-01 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:40:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 910636121 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:40:30 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420FD773.5070400@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:40:51 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:40:34 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Chris writes: > > >>Ok - I just noticed something. Whenever Anthony posts, he has in the >>Reply To: field, FreeBSD-Questions. >> >>Why is that? What's up with that? > > > I put it that way in my reply template, since I normally reply to the > list, and not to the individual poster, and I get tired of cutting and > pasting the correct address. Ahh - so the mentality behind it is simply this; You get tired of doing the right thing, so you do the wrong thing and force everyone else that follows the rules, do all the cutting. I get it now... > > You're asking about how I use my e-mail program to reply to a list other > than this one. What were you saying about off-topic posts? > Yes - I am guilty as charged (this time) however, you continually do it. There IS a difference. -- Best regards, Chris If anything can't go wrong it will. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:45:09 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2563716A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:45:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C7643D2F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:45:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 3000) id A5D0C11986; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:45:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:45:04 +0100 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050213224503.GB735@arthur.nitro.dk> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <65856299.20050213233912@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cmJC7u66zC7hs+87" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <65856299.20050213233912@wanadoo.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:45:09 -0000 --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2005.02.13 23:39:12 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Anthony Atkielski writes: >=20 > > I put it that way in my reply template, since I normally reply to the > > list, and not to the individual poster, and I get tired of cutting and > > pasting the correct address. >=20 > Actually, that's something different. >=20 > My reply template directs the reply to the list [...] No, this is freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org and you direct replies to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. --=20 Simon L. Nielsen --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCD9hvh9pcDSc1mlERArxeAJwNq8Hkr+cfM1ktKFO8+U7G+nNN9ACeKWuO qUMn4e5NBXcXNSOistff+qs= =P44e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cmJC7u66zC7hs+87-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:45:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F32316A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:45:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC18843D48 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:45:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 89AE41C00087 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:45:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 69F941C00086 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:45:23 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213224523434.69F941C00086@mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:45:23 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1657848357.20050213234523@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420FD5D8.1090101@makeworld.com> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD5D8.1090101@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:45:26 -0000 Chris writes: > What your doing, is wrong. No, it's standard SMTP. I worked with corporate messaging systems for years; I know whereof I speak. The "reply-to" setting is always set at the discretion of the originating MUA, although MTAs can be configured to override it (but MTAs do not do this by default). The error is in the list configuration. People who reply to the list must either change the address manually or do a "reply all," which creates a duplicate message, one to the list and one to the sender. This wastes bandwidth, and it wastes human labor as well because almost all replies are replies to the list, and thus require constant "reply all" or address changes. The mailers handling the lists should be setting "reply-to" on all outgoing posts, or should change the sender to the address of the list. Some home-brewed list programs don't do this, however. > It's ignorant, and against the charter of the lists. I haven't been able to locate a charter for the lists, beyond a simple statement of the purpose of each list. Additionally, it's standard practice for mailing lists to route replies back to the list. I use the "reply-to" convention to compensate for lists that are misconfigured (they are a minority, but a significant minority). -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:46:16 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C2816A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:46:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.199.47.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159B943D41 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:46:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7F0445132C; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:46:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:46:15 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050213224615.GA59518@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <65856299.20050213233912@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/04w6evG8XlLl3ft" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <65856299.20050213233912@wanadoo.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:46:16 -0000 --/04w6evG8XlLl3ft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 11:39:12PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Anthony Atkielski writes: >=20 > > I put it that way in my reply template, since I normally reply to the > > list, and not to the individual poster, and I get tired of cutting and > > pasting the correct address. >=20 > Actually, that's something different. >=20 > My reply template directs the reply to the list, rather than to the > sender, so that I don't have to change the destination address for every > post (I never send replies to list messages to the original poster, > since that creates a lot of overhead for the original poster and a lot > of duplicated text for the reply). The point is you're continually redirecting mail to an inappropriate list. Kindly fix this. Kris --/04w6evG8XlLl3ft Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCD9i3Wry0BWjoQKURAogbAJ4hwqOen4f4w9N9dG3xgXSrCVfP3ACfc2hW wnUTMPrPOv7FVjyblXyeioE= =m1Ng -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/04w6evG8XlLl3ft-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:47:54 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98F9516A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:47:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26BB543D45 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:47:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 834506122 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:47:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36593-07 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:47:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8DC56121 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:47:50 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420FD92C.5020706@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:48:12 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD5D8.1090101@makeworld.com> <1657848357.20050213234523@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <1657848357.20050213234523@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:47:54 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Chris writes: > > >>What your doing, is wrong. > > > No, it's standard SMTP. I worked with corporate messaging systems for > years; I know whereof I speak. The "reply-to" setting is always set at > the discretion of the originating MUA, although MTAs can be configured > to override it (but MTAs do not do this by default). > > The error is in the list configuration. People who reply to the list > must either change the address manually or do a "reply all," which > creates a duplicate message, one to the list and one to the sender. > This wastes bandwidth, and it wastes human labor as well because almost > all replies are replies to the list, and thus require constant "reply > all" or address changes. > > The mailers handling the lists should be setting "reply-to" on all > outgoing posts, or should change the sender to the address of the list. > Some home-brewed list programs don't do this, however. > > >>It's ignorant, and against the charter of the lists. > > > I haven't been able to locate a charter for the lists, beyond a simple > statement of the purpose of each list. Additionally, it's standard > practice for mailing lists to route replies back to the list. I use the > "reply-to" convention to compensate for lists that are misconfigured > (they are a minority, but a significant minority). > As Simon correctly points out - it's being directed to Questions. IF (and a big one for you to grasp) the Reply had Advocacy (being we're now discussing in here) there would not be an issue. Can you hear me now??? Goood -- Best regards, Chris The item you had your eye on the minute you walked in will be taken by the person in front of you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:50:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2761416A4CF for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:50:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.199.47.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA00043D5D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:50:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1F8E15132C; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:50:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:50:03 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050213225002.GA59625@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD5D8.1090101@makeworld.com> <1657848357.20050213234523@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jI8keyz6grp/JLjh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1657848357.20050213234523@wanadoo.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:50:04 -0000 --jI8keyz6grp/JLjh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 11:45:23PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > It's ignorant, and against the charter of the lists. >=20 > I haven't been able to locate a charter for the lists, beyond a simple > statement of the purpose of each list. Additionally, it's standard > practice for mailing lists to route replies back to the list. I use the > "reply-to" convention to compensate for lists that are misconfigured > (they are a minority, but a significant minority). Go to 'www.freebsd.org', click on 'mailing lists' link in sidebar. Read page. Kris --jI8keyz6grp/JLjh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCD9maWry0BWjoQKURAiYRAKCVEIw/ZfsX5o+sIfM8O3yQo89U2wCcDsxK 7WpggmEIe+K7hDr/TnEV3eQ= =KTp1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jI8keyz6grp/JLjh-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:50:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF8F16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:50:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E2043D5D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:50:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F5586122; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:50:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36593-08; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:50:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 105256121; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:50:03 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420FD9B0.5080308@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:50:24 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <65856299.20050213233912@wanadoo.fr> <20050213224615.GA59518@xor.obsecurity.org> In-Reply-To: <20050213224615.GA59518@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:50:06 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 11:39:12PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > >>Anthony Atkielski writes: >> >> >>>I put it that way in my reply template, since I normally reply to the >>>list, and not to the individual poster, and I get tired of cutting and >>>pasting the correct address. >> >>Actually, that's something different. >> >>My reply template directs the reply to the list, rather than to the >>sender, so that I don't have to change the destination address for every >>post (I never send replies to list messages to the original poster, >>since that creates a lot of overhead for the original poster and a lot >>of duplicated text for the reply). > > > The point is you're continually redirecting mail to an inappropriate > list. Kindly fix this. > > Kris Indeed - he's now got a thread on this going in Questions. Thank you Anthony for making my point. -- Best regards, Chris The item you had your eye on the minute you walked in will be taken by the person in front of you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:52:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C188916A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:52:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 736F943D48 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:52:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1108.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3DC6A1C00098 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:52:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1108.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 08FCA1C0009A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:52:06 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213225207371.08FCA1C0009A@mwinf1108.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:52:06 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <610591028.20050213235206@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420FD773.5070400@makeworld.com> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD773.5070400@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:52:10 -0000 Chris writes: > Ahh - so the mentality behind it is simply this; > You get tired of doing the right thing, so you do the wrong thing and > force everyone else that follows the rules, do all the cutting. No. The behavior this produces is the correct behavior for a mailing list. Normally, someone posts a first message to a mailing list, and then people who reply to that message send replies that are also routed to the list, so that all on the list can share the contents of the replies (that is, after all, why it's a list). If someone asks a question, for example, it makes little sense for all replies to the question to go privately to the person asking it, since many other people may have the same question. Logically all replies are sent to the list, so that everyone can see them. The fact that virtually everyone on these lists is doing exactly this demonstrates that it is indeed "correct" for these lists. However, many of them are doing it with "reply all" or by manually changing the destination address of their replies, which is labor-intensive and generates an extra, useless copy of the reply in the case of "reply all." I've simply automated a solution to this in my own e-mail configuration so that I don't have to alter every single message in order to route it correctly. I hope this clarifies things. > Yes - I am guilty as charged (this time) however, you continually do it. > There IS a difference. The biggest difference is that you spend most of your bandwidth attacking me, instead of discussing the nominal topics of the threads here. You'll notice that I do not reciprocate, nor do I complain. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:55:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF62E16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:55:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF7A43D39 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:55:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B960D6121 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:55:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36740-01 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:55:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A74F6123 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:55:00 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420FDAD9.7080801@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:55:21 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD773.5070400@makeworld.com> <610591028.20050213235206@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <610591028.20050213235206@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:55:04 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Chris writes: > > >>Ahh - so the mentality behind it is simply this; >>You get tired of doing the right thing, so you do the wrong thing and >>force everyone else that follows the rules, do all the cutting. > > > No. The behavior this produces is the correct behavior for a mailing > list. > > Normally, someone posts a first message to a mailing list, and then > people who reply to that message send replies that are also routed to > the list, so that all on the list can share the contents of the replies > (that is, after all, why it's a list). If someone asks a question, for > example, it makes little sense for all replies to the question to go > privately to the person asking it, since many other people may have the > same question. Logically all replies are sent to the list, so that > everyone can see them. > > The fact that virtually everyone on these lists is doing exactly this > demonstrates that it is indeed "correct" for these lists. However, many > of them are doing it with "reply all" or by manually changing the > destination address of their replies, which is labor-intensive and > generates an extra, useless copy of the reply in the case of "reply > all." I've simply automated a solution to this in my own e-mail > configuration so that I don't have to alter every single message in > order to route it correctly. > > I hope this clarifies things. > > >>Yes - I am guilty as charged (this time) however, you continually do it. >>There IS a difference. > > > The biggest difference is that you spend most of your bandwidth > attacking me, instead of discussing the nominal topics of the threads > here. You'll notice that I do not reciprocate, nor do I complain. > I will allow you to have the last word. Only because others have posted the errors of your ways - Even a post as to where the charters are. -- Best regards, Chris A consultant is an ordinary person a long way from home. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:57:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E1C16A500 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:57:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D9C43D41 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:57:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E1B631C00092 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:57:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id BFF651C00081 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:57:02 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213225702786.BFF651C00081@mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:56:52 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1216207212.20050213235652@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050213224615.GA59518@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <65856299.20050213233912@wanadoo.fr> <20050213224615.GA59518@xor.obsecurity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:57:04 -0000 Kris Kennaway writes: > The point is you're continually redirecting mail to an inappropriate > list. Kindly fix this. Done. Sorry. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:58:50 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74B316A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:58:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 701F243D1D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:58:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A556F1C00087 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:58:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 8BB211C00085 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:58:49 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213225849572.8BB211C00085@mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:58:38 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <153973809.20050213235838@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420FD92C.5020706@makeworld.com> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD5D8.1090101@makeworld.com> <1657848357.20050213234523@wanadoo.fr> <420FD92C.5020706@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:58:50 -0000 Chris writes: > As Simon correctly points out - it's being directed to Questions. Not anymore. > IF (and a big one for you to grasp) the Reply had Advocacy (being > we're now discussing in here) there would not be an issue. If the original description had been clear, I would have fixed it immediately. I don't know what "this list" refers to because I receive traffic from both lists, and because the MUA normally routes all replies automatically to the correct list. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 23:00:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD34A16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:00:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64EAB43D49 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:00:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B10CB6122 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:00:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36735-04 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:00:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1C66121 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:00:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420FDC0C.8060505@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:00:28 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD5D8.1090101@makeworld.com> <1657848357.20050213234523@wanadoo.fr> <420FD92C.5020706@makeworld.com> <153973809.20050213235838@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <153973809.20050213235838@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:00:10 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Chris writes: > > >>As Simon correctly points out - it's being directed to Questions. > > > Not anymore. > > >>IF (and a big one for you to grasp) the Reply had Advocacy (being >>we're now discussing in here) there would not be an issue. > > > If the original description had been clear, I would have fixed it > immediately. I don't know what "this list" refers to because I receive > traffic from both lists, and because the MUA normally routes all replies > automatically to the correct list. > Thank you sir - we're friends once again. -- Best regards, Chris The race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 23:02:20 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C3916A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:02:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC1843D1F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:02:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 966351C00087 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:02:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7DAAE1C00082 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:02:19 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213230219514.7DAAE1C00082@mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:02:18 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1176302976.20050214000218@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050213225002.GA59625@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD5D8.1090101@makeworld.com> <1657848357.20050213234523@wanadoo.fr> <20050213225002.GA59625@xor.obsecurity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:02:20 -0000 Kris Kennaway writes: > Go to 'www.freebsd.org', click on 'mailing lists' link in sidebar. > Read page. Done. But there is no mention of a policy for "reply-to" fields. The only relevant paragraph I could find was the one prohibiting personal attacks, but I'm not guilty of that myself. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 23:03:36 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E60416A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:03:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CAC143D48 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:03:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 6D6311C00089 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:03:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4E29C1C00087 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:03:35 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213230335320.4E29C1C00087@mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:03:26 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <703860628.20050214000326@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050213224503.GB735@arthur.nitro.dk> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <65856299.20050213233912@wanadoo.fr> <20050213224503.GB735@arthur.nitro.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:03:36 -0000 Simon L. Nielsen writes: > No, this is freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org and you direct replies to > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. Do I? Hmm ... you're right! Sorry about that. It is corrected now. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 23:04:40 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 363E516A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:04:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.199.47.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC0B43D41 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:04:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F1DFD51461; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:04:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:04:38 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050213230438.GA61495@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD5D8.1090101@makeworld.com> <1657848357.20050213234523@wanadoo.fr> <420FD92C.5020706@makeworld.com> <153973809.20050213235838@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="x+6KMIRAuhnl3hBn" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <153973809.20050213235838@wanadoo.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:04:40 -0000 --x+6KMIRAuhnl3hBn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 11:58:38PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > I don't know what "this list" refers to because I receive traffic > from both lists, and because the MUA normally routes all replies > automatically to the correct list. This is, of course, another problem on your end. Consider sorting mail into folders or otherwise annotating according to mailing list origin, in order to prevent similar mistakes on your behalf in the future. This is standard practise for those who read mail from multiple mailing lists. Kris --x+6KMIRAuhnl3hBn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCD90FWry0BWjoQKURAutKAKDARcw0bd/aDVIpq1e2wanA2VQu2ACfVeOA yVPjQc98Kl8zC5ZwE9iDbD4= =/pDy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --x+6KMIRAuhnl3hBn-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 23:05:42 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA9B16A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:05:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.199.47.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 286B543D39 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:05:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 52A4151461; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:05:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:05:41 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050213230540.GB61495@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD5D8.1090101@makeworld.com> <1657848357.20050213234523@wanadoo.fr> <20050213225002.GA59625@xor.obsecurity.org> <1176302976.20050214000218@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="neYutvxvOLaeuPCA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1176302976.20050214000218@wanadoo.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:05:42 -0000 --neYutvxvOLaeuPCA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 12:02:18AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Kris Kennaway writes: >=20 > > Go to 'www.freebsd.org', click on 'mailing lists' link in sidebar. > > Read page. >=20 > Done. But there is no mention of a policy for "reply-to" fields. As I hope is clear now, the problem was with your promotion of cross-posting via reply-to. Kris --neYutvxvOLaeuPCA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCD91EWry0BWjoQKURAk8SAJ9i/13VBzAXyHBswEOJg1xS+FtIswCeMPj1 Is0M3Kpb07LVeFLRqnjXGDk= =vIUa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --neYutvxvOLaeuPCA-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 23:14:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C66716A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:14:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00CC443D46 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:14:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050213231446i92004ud2te>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:14:46 +0000 Message-ID: <420FDF62.40503@nbritton.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:14:42 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD773.5070400@makeworld.com> <610591028.20050213235206@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <610591028.20050213235206@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:14:49 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: >Chris writes: > > > >>Ahh - so the mentality behind it is simply this; >>You get tired of doing the right thing, so you do the wrong thing and >>force everyone else that follows the rules, do all the cutting. >> >> > >No. The behavior this produces is the correct behavior for a mailing >list. > >Normally, someone posts a first message to a mailing list, and then >people who reply to that message send replies that are also routed to >the list, so that all on the list can share the contents of the replies >(that is, after all, why it's a list). If someone asks a question, for >example, it makes little sense for all replies to the question to go >privately to the person asking it, since many other people may have the >same question. Logically all replies are sent to the list, so that >everyone can see them. > yea thats fine but your mail keeps adding freebsd-questions to everything you reply to. This is not the questions mailing list so it should not be adding it. You need to fix it, I'm getting tried of removing the address manually. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 23:48:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C696716A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:48:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B70A43D31 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:48:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1371D1C00095 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:48:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E3D7D1C00090 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:48:24 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213234824933.E3D7D1C00090@mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:48:24 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <886744636.20050214004824@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050213230438.GA61495@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD5D8.1090101@makeworld.com> <1657848357.20050213234523@wanadoo.fr> <420FD92C.5020706@makeworld.com> <153973809.20050213235838@wanadoo.fr> <20050213230438.GA61495@xor.obsecurity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:48:26 -0000 Kris Kennaway writes: > This is, of course, another problem on your end. Consider sorting > mail into folders or otherwise annotating according to mailing list > origin, in order to prevent similar mistakes on your behalf in the > future. This is already done. However, I copied and pasted the reply templates, and I forgot to change "questions" to "advocacy" in one of the templates. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 23:48:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FEA916A4CE for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:48:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA25043D5A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:48:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1108.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id ECCCB1C0008C for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:48:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1108.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D47781C0008B for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:48:54 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050213234854870.D47781C0008B@mwinf1108.wanadoo.fr Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:48:54 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <497198483.20050214004854@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <420FDF62.40503@nbritton.org> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD773.5070400@makeworld.com> <610591028.20050213235206@wanadoo.fr> <420FDF62.40503@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:48:56 -0000 Nikolas Britton writes: > yea thats fine but your mail keeps adding freebsd-questions to > everything you reply to. This is not the questions mailing list so it > should not be adding it. You need to fix it, I'm getting tried of > removing the address manually. It's fixed. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 00:16:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170FB16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:16:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F1B43D2F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:16:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22086121 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:16:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36922-08 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:16:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A854D6122 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:16:04 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <420FEDDA.2070905@makeworld.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:16:26 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD773.5070400@makeworld.com> <610591028.20050213235206@wanadoo.fr> <420FDF62.40503@nbritton.org> <497198483.20050214004854@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <497198483.20050214004854@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:16:08 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Nikolas Britton writes: > > >>yea thats fine but your mail keeps adding freebsd-questions to >>everything you reply to. This is not the questions mailing list so it >>should not be adding it. You need to fix it, I'm getting tried of >>removing the address manually. > > > It's fixed. > Anthony, Nobody is really blaming you - you were doing what you thought was correct in other situations that you are accustom to. The mere fact that you took measures to correct an issue speaks volumes. And the fact that you apologized shows character. That being said, if you feel that I personally attached you, then I apologize. Now that this is all behind us, let's move on to discuss the ideals and advocacy of this OS. This has been a learning experience for all. With that said, these issues are now at rest, agreed? -- Best regards, Chris A consultant is an ordinary person a long way from home. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 00:47:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D236416A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:47:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3077343D39 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:47:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:46:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: <86650wjeag.fsf@xps.des.no> References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com><82d64b378160bb673c1d1611d1bedd56@czv.com><420FA01B.6000807@nbritton.org><02d9fb3bd6d983e230c3568cfaf8948f@czv.com><420FBEDE.4000608@nbritton.org><233b173e2a4026993c6ce9de25d560ae@czv.com> <86ekfkjg1v.fsf@xps.des.no><33431a18ed11d408fc0e740e9beef811@czv.com> <86650wjeag.fsf@xps.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:47:23 +0100 To: Nikolas Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:47:25 -0000 On Feb 13, 2005, at 10:09 PM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > On Feb 13, 2005, at 9:26 PM, Nikolas Britton wrote: > >> *FreeBSD is FreeBSD not FREEBSD. Also "FreeBSD" is trademarked the=20 >> other is not. > > You're referring to the US/UK/German/Japanese trademark the FreeBSD=20 > foundation recently got from Windriver, correct? Is that now a logo=20 > trademark or a word trademark? Word trademarks never differentiate=20 > between small and capitalized letters. If the trademark is limited to=20= > just the "FreeBSD" version then it isn't a word trademark. On Feb 13, 2005, at 11:17 PM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn writes: >> On Feb 13, 2005, at 10:39 PM, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >>> Word marks are case-insensitive. >> That's what I thought. You can register a "word" case sensitive, but >> then it is a logo. But maybe that's how it was registered. > > It only takes a minute to find out on http://www.uspto.gov/. Looks like a word trademark to me. I don't think this is an issue,=20 Nikolas. /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 00:52:19 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA92316A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:52:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lakermmtao06.cox.net (lakermmtao06.cox.net [68.230.240.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C526343D2F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:52:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jklee2@cox.net) Received: from [48.248.248.102] (really [68.102.20.42]) by lakermmtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20050214005216.DTXM6774.lakermmtao06.cox.net@[48.248.248.102]> for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:52:16 -0500 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.300 [265.8.7]); Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:50:00 -0600 Message-ID: <000c01c5122f$1c815cd0$66f8f830@patricks9rvbqz> From: "Patrick Klee" To: Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:49:59 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-420FF5B820C8=======" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: unsucscribe X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:52:19 -0000 --=======AVGMAIL-420FF5B820C8======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable please remove Patrick Klee from your mailing list thanks --=======AVGMAIL-420FF5B820C8======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: "AVG certification" No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005 --=======AVGMAIL-420FF5B820C8=======-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 00:55:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63CAF16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:55:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2F643D31 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:55:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1108.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id EE25E1C00084 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:55:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1108.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id CCBFB1C00082 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:55:16 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050214005516838.CCBFB1C00082@mwinf1108.wanadoo.fr Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:55:16 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <56478844.20050214015516@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: FreeBSD trademark status X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:55:18 -0000 Here's the official status of the FreeBSD trademark, FYI: ============== Typed Drawing ------------------------------------------------------------------ Word Mark: FREEBSD Goods and Services: IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: CD ROMs featuring an archive of computer programs which may be accessed for use. FIRST USE: 19930831. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930831 Mark Drawing Code: (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number: 74546171 Filing Date: July 6, 1994 Current Filing Basis: 1A Original Filing Basis: 1A Published for Opposition: November 21, 1995 Registration Number: 1955727 Registration Date: February 13, 1996 Owner (REGISTRANT): WALNUT CREEK CDROM, INCORPORATED CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 3623 SANFORD ST. CONCORD (LAST LISTED OWNER): FREEBSD FOUNDATION, THE NON PROFIT COLORADO 7321 BROCKWAY DRIVE BOULDER COLORADO 80303 Assignment Recorded: ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Type of Mark: TRADEMARK Register: PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text: SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator: LIVE =============== Notice that the registered trademark covers only an "archive of computer programs" on CD-ROM. It says nothing about an operating system. This means that someone can still use the FreeBSD mark to designate an operating system as a separate trademark. I wonder why such a restrictive scope was given to the original trademark. Was FreeBSD already a complete operating system in 1993? Note also that trademarks must be actively defended, otherwise they pass into the public domain, registration or not. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 00:57:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD6B16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:57:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0ECB343D1D for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:57:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:56:21 +0100 In-Reply-To: <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> <420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:57:01 +0100 To: Nikolas Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:57:03 -0000 On Feb 13, 2005, at 11:23 PM, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >> I've since simplified the new Beastie silhouette even more, which >> certainly doesn't help to make him more happy, playful or cute. Not >> sure if I can help with that. > > Well the main thing(s) I don't like is he has a beer gut (beastie.gif) That's the old version. http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsd.gif uses the new, more simplified version. > and the size and shape (nose/mouth area) of his head is werid. also > the size of his pitch fork was/is almost bigger then him. That's the price we pay for printability due to the simplification. That's ok for a professional logo. /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 01:14:17 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC8116A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:14:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC37843D2F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:14:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2397) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0Uag-0005I2-5B; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:59:54 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HX389H>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:57:32 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC'" Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:38:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:14:17 -0000 From: Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC [mailto:chad@shire.net] > > Not to say that you cannot run a FreeBSD desktop. And any efforts to > make that easier are applauded. I used to run Linux on the desktop[1] > and FreeBSD on the server. Setting up Linux as a desktop at the time > (1990-2000 timeframe) was so much easier. I don't know about now, but > with Linux (SuSE is what I used back then) it was as easy as setting up > Windows. The suitability of a system for the desktop has only a little to do with installation and setup. If you're a newbie sitting at home without an administrator, then by all means stick with Mac OSX. But the desktop market is far bigger than the newbie sitting at home. You also have to consider the business desktop where you have sysadmins to do the installation and setup. If you can train an admin to configure X.org (which ain't that hard), then there's no reason you can't have FreeBSD and KDE/GNOME/WhateverDE on the business desktop. Other than mindshare, that is. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 01:22:37 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F2216A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:22:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9100343D2F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:22:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:21:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: <56478844.20050214015516@wanadoo.fr> References: <56478844.20050214015516@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:22:35 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Subject: Re: FreeBSD trademark status X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:22:37 -0000 On Feb 14, 2005, at 1:55 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Notice that the registered trademark covers only an "archive of > computer > programs" on CD-ROM. It says nothing about an operating system. This > means that someone can still use the FreeBSD mark to designate an > operating system as a separate trademark. I wonder why such a > restrictive scope was given to the original trademark. Was FreeBSD > already a complete operating system in 1993? The FreeBSD foundation is updating this to reflect the current use. /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 01:46:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A9816A4CE; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:46:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10AA43D1D; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:46:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2247) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0UZx-0005GS-3a; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:59:09 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HX38YR>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:56:56 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org'" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:00:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:46:03 -0000 From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > > Because FreeBSD is a server, not a desktop. Agree and disagree. While FreeBSD is well suited for the server, it's also well suited for the desktop. That doesn't mean that we should be stressing the desktop to those shopping for servers, instead it means that we shouldn't be telling those shopping for desktops to go use Linux instead. How many business will be running Linux on the desktop but FreeBSD on the server? None! Currently Windows rules the desktop world, even for diehard Unix shops. But that will not last forever. We need to start thinking about the desktop today. We need to stop the official discouragement of desktop FreeBSD. So how about a "www.serverfreebsd.com" and a "www.desktopfreebsd.com"? You get the best of both worlds that way. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 01:57:15 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 895F316A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:57:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9BF43D41 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:57:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 946AF857D5; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:27:12 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:27:12 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Kris Kennaway Message-ID: <20050214015712.GD85932@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <420FCA6C.7070604@makeworld.com> <1987008862.20050213232914@wanadoo.fr> <420FD5D8.1090101@makeworld.com> <1657848357.20050213234523@wanadoo.fr> <420FD92C.5020706@makeworld.com> <153973809.20050213235838@wanadoo.fr> <20050213230438.GA61495@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="11Y7aswkeuHtSBEs" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050213230438.GA61495@xor.obsecurity.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An observation X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:57:15 -0000 --11Y7aswkeuHtSBEs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, 13 February 2005 at 15:04:38 -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 11:58:38PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > >> I don't know what "this list" refers to because I receive traffic >> from both lists, and because the MUA normally routes all replies >> automatically to the correct list. > > This is, of course, another problem on your end. Consider sorting > mail into folders or otherwise annotating according to mailing list > origin, in order to prevent similar mistakes on your behalf in the > future. This is standard practise for those who read mail from > multiple mailing lists. The mailing list charter asks you to reply to the sender and the list. This is being polite to the sender, not the list. If the sender specifically chooses not to have the reply sent to him, what's wrong with that? I agree with you (Kris) that I don't understand why, but that's Anthony's business, not ours. I don't see any problem with it. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --11Y7aswkeuHtSBEs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD4DBQFCEAV4IubykFB6QiMRAmBBAJYii6jESBSHxNvjOdHGGeyH3EBIAKCDf72L rn8ZmwyKo3REj1MCeAAZJQ== =vm53 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --11Y7aswkeuHtSBEs-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 02:08:37 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8B8E16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:08:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fw.farid-hajji.net (fw.farid-hajji.net [213.146.115.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F9F43D45 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:08:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpghost@cordula.ws) Received: from fw.farid-hajji.net (net4801-2 [192.168.254.1]) by fw.farid-hajji.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F202B4B4B5; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:04:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:04:29 +0100 From: cpghost@cordula.ws To: Matthias Buelow Message-ID: <20050214020429.GA46706@fw.farid-hajji.net> References: <420A6465.30402@sbcglobal.net> <20050209202922.GA18393@fw.farid-hajji.net> <420FFACC.2020403@incubus.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <420FFACC.2020403@incubus.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: sp0ng3b0b cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org cc: Charles-Andr? Landemaine Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:08:37 -0000 On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 02:11:40AM +0100, Matthias Buelow wrote: > cpghost@cordula.ws wrote: > > >Nope. Beastie is a way of life. I'd be quite upset if it were dropped > >for whatever reason. It is so intimately tied to FreeBSD that it would > >be a PR disaster if it were to be changed. NetBSD never had a real > > The BSD daemon image stems from around 4.3BSD, or an even earlier > release, not FreeBSD. It can therefore never be specific for the > FreeBSD system, in the same way Ronald McDonald doesn't stand for the > Big Mac alone, but rather for the entire company. In earlier years, > before the general hype about Linux and *BSD, I've seen the image being > used in presentations about Unix in general. [Redirected from -questions to -advocacy] True. Beastie has a venerable tradition, and FreeBSD just upheld it. I too have a lot of CDs, buttons, t-shirts and printouts pre-dating FreeBSD *and* Jolitz' 386BSD which show the little devil. Kirk presents also some old renditions of Beastie, even one from 4.2BSD: http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/shirts/bsdunix.html http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/mainpage/images.html Sadly, NetBSD switched to a meaningless flag logo, and OpenBSD's Puffy is hardly a daemon (though it is cute in its own way). This leaves FreeBSD as the only OS that still uses Beastie as a way to characterize itself. It would be a shame to select a de-beastyfied say-nothing logo. Cheers, -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 02:16:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DEDB16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:16:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7471843D1D for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:16:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:4919) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0UUb-0005Ap-48; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:53:37 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HX354B>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:04:18 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641ADF@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'stheg olloydson' , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:44:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.2: RE: SPAM: Score 2.5: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:16:47 -0000 From: stheg olloydson [mailto:stheg_olloydson@yahoo.com] > > Well, well, well! Hit too close to home did I? I said that those > complaining about the beastie belong to an irrational minority that > wish to impose their religion on others. In what way is this statement > bigotry or anti-Christian or anti-American? The phrases you used were: "America's Taliban", "force their religious orthodoxy", "eliminate the barrier between state and church", "make the United States into a theocratic country", and "an irrational minority". These statements are false mischaracterizations designed to promulgate a stereotype. Similar statements about race, gender or ethnicity are bigotry, so using them to stereotype a creed is no different. In many cases there will be those who do indeed fit the stereotype. There are some Jews who have large noses and are miserly. There are some blacks who talk in rhyme and eat watermelon. There are some homosexuals who talk with a lisp and weak wrists. So yes, there are some "Christians" who probably do want a theocracy and an elimination of the disestablishment clause. But those people are in the very small insignificant minority. I did not take offense because you merely mentioned that these people exist. I took offense because you have magnified these people far beyond their petty importance. Your post was NOT about the logo contest, but the continuation of an errnoneous and politically loaded stereotype. David Johnson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 02:20:21 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9630916A4CE; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:20:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C1743D53; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:20:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:4598) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0USn-00058V-4q; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:51:45 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HX3Z5Z>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:02:50 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'Mark Ovens' Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:53:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 4.7: Re: SPAM: Score 4.5: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a publ ic competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:20:21 -0000 From: Mark Ovens [mailto:marko@freebsd.org] > >> Yes, I'm sure you can scrounge up a couple of old anecotes of people who >> were offended or disturbed by Beastie. But I can counter each with ten of my > > Just search through the FreeBSD mail archives for numerous posts along > the lines of "why do you have the Devil as your mascot" - I'd bet it > runs into hundreds. I've seen those posts because I've been on this list for four or five years. But to my recollection they were either questioning why logo was a demon/devil, or expressing concern that *other* people might find Beastie offensive. I don't recall any where the poster him/herself was offended or disturbed. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 02:20:22 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E4E16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:20:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D442343D53 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:20:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:4680) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0UTU-00059E-5X for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:52:28 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HX3Z0W>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:03:05 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:51:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 4.0: Logo contest, and lessons from the XFree86 d ebacle X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:20:22 -0000 From: Farid Hajji [mailto:farid.hajji@ob.kamp.net] > Remember what happened with the XFree86 project as they choose > to change their license terms without community support? Now > we have X.org and most relevant developers moved there, just > because XFree86's Mgmt failed to address the community's > concerns appropriately. This is completely different from the current controversy. XFree86 had been gaining a reputation for quite a while. The licensing switch was merely "the last straw". The logo issue is very different. Beastie is not going away, as has been mentioned by numerous posts and clarifications. The logo is something new, as FreeBSD does not currently have one (neither does OpenBSD or Linux, BTW). David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 02:32:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5FB16A4CE; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:32:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D24543D31; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:32:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:4565) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0UR9-00058J-5X; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:50:03 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HX3ZXF>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:02:38 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD5@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'stheg olloydson' , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:41:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.5: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:32:32 -0000 From: stheg olloydson [mailto:stheg_olloydson@yahoo.com] > > Now as to the "need" to change the logo, to quote the announcement, > "This character sometimes treated with misinterpreted in the > religious and cultural context." Over the years, the only complaints I > have ever heard have come from America's Taliban. Leaving aside the > question of whether or not the complainers are in a position to make > any sort of IT decision, one must ask what is their motivation for > complaining. They are simply trying to force their religious orthodoxy > on others. These are the same people trying to eliminate the barrier > between state and church to make the United States into a theocratic > country. Therefore, these complaints can be categorized as coming from > an irrational minority that should be ignored. Please keep your personal politics and cultural bigotry off of these lists. There is no "America's Taliban", and the use of the term is used solely to incite emotions. Thinking that just because people share you views on operating systems they must also share you views on religion and foreign policy is sheer hubris. I realize that geeks and hackers tend to be irreligious, and Open Source a collection of global communities, but not until today have I seen such anti-Christian and anti-America bigotry in the FreeBSD community. Is this to be the new standard of discourse? If so, tell me now so I can avoid the rush in switching to another BSD. As a Christian I am not in the least offended by Beastie. But I am getting quite offended by people stereotyping my religion, nation and culture. David Johnson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 02:35:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32FF816A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:35:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE40143D31 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:35:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:4524) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0UQc-000581-4o for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:49:30 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HX3ZR5>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:02:18 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD4@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:38:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 4.5: Re: The FreeBSD Project is announcing a publ ic competition for the new logo design. ???? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:35:08 -0000 > From: Mark Ovens [mailto:marko@freebsd.org] > Ricardo Alves dos Reis wrote: > > Unfortunately, the cute FreeBSD daemon is sometimes treated with > > misunderstanding in the religious and cultural context. That's why The > > FreeBSD Project is announcing a public competition for the new logo > > design. You can find the rules of the competition in this document. > > > > http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/announce.txt ?????? > > > > So, the FreeBSD Project is giving in to the narrow-minded, > puritanical, moral minority who, despite their preachings are not very > well-informed as they don't know the difference between 'demon' and > 'daemon'. Is this a sign (or a victim perhaps?) of the "growing > conservatism sweeping Bush's America"? As a Christian and somewhat quasi-conservative, I must protest the promulgation of this falsehood. Problem is not the "religious right", but rather the erroneous perception of the religious right. There is no problem with the daemon mascot. Nobody is out there refusing to consider BSD because of its mascot The only time I have seen this issue brought up has been on Slashdot, by a Linux advocate, or by someone who heard second hand from one of the former. Nobody's complaining about the Arizona Sun Devils. No one's complaining aobut Underwood Deviled Ham. And no one's complaining about the BSD daemon. I'm a Christian and I don't have a problem with him. My Christian relatives and friends don't have a problem with him. Including those that are rural "hicks" from red states. Yes, I'm sure you can scrounge up a couple of old anecotes of people who were offended or disturbed by Beastie. But I can counter each with ten of my own anecdotes of conservative Christians who did not. Do not mistake a few poorly socialized radicals on the right as the model for religious conservatives. That's stereotyping of the worst sort. There *IS* a reason for a logo contest, and that is because we do not have a logo, only a mascot. Let's get ourselves a logo, but keep the mascot, because Beastie is a hell [sic] of a lot cooler than flightless waterfowl. David Johnson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 02:39:53 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577A916A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:39:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from luzifer.incubus.de (incubus.de [80.237.207.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1191743D48 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:39:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mkb@incubus.de) Received: from [192.168.2.10] (p548534CF.dip.t-dialin.net [84.133.52.207]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by luzifer.incubus.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E907B3093D; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:39:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <42100F8F.9010102@incubus.de> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:40:15 +0100 From: Matthias Buelow User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (X11/20041124) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cpghost@cordula.ws References: <420A6465.30402@sbcglobal.net> <20050209202922.GA18393@fw.farid-hajji.net> <420FFACC.2020403@incubus.de> <20050214020429.GA46706@fw.farid-hajji.net> In-Reply-To: <20050214020429.GA46706@fw.farid-hajji.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: sp0ng3b0b cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org cc: Charles-Andr? Landemaine Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:39:53 -0000 cpghost@cordula.ws wrote: > Sadly, NetBSD switched to a meaningless flag logo, and OpenBSD's Noone prevents you from chosing one of those banners, for example, when decorating your website: http://www.netbsd.org/gallery/other-logos.html Noone forces you to use the flag logo. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 03:57:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FDB616A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:57:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB87F43D2F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:57:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:57:30 -0600 Message-ID: <421021A9.7040105@daleco.biz> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:57:29 -0600 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <56478844.20050214015516@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <56478844.20050214015516@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Feb 2005 03:57:31.0078 (UTC) FILETIME=[4E9D6E60:01C51249] Subject: Re: FreeBSD trademark status X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:57:33 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Was FreeBSD already a complete operating system in 1993? > > Yes. See Handbook, 1.3.1, or: www.freebsd.org/handbook/history.html Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 04:20:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EEF16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:20:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7A643D46 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:20:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1E4K9CW031995 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:20:09 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j1E4K95N031992; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:20:09 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:20:09 GMT Resent-Message-Id: <200502140420.j1E4K95N031992@freefall.freebsd.org> Resent-From: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org (GNATS Filer) Resent-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Resent-Reply-To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org, "Josh Elsasser" Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 026A416A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:15:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from out011.verizon.net (out011pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68A4843D45 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:15:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from josh@elsasser.org) Received: from mail.elsasser.org ([68.160.36.148]) by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050214041557.SFCJ28171.out011.verizon.net@mail.elsasser.org> for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:15:57 -0600 Received: from loki.nat.elsasser.org (loki.nat.elsasser.org [10.40.92.2]) by mail.elsasser.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E433D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from loki.nat.elsasser.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by loki.nat.elsasser.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53CF921F24 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:16:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1108354595.0@loki.nat.elsasser.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:16:35 -0500 From: "Josh Elsasser" To: "FreeBSD gnats submit" X-Send-Pr-Version: gtk-send-pr 0.4.4 Subject: advocacy/77474: [patch] security update: port www/mod_python to 2.7.11 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:20:10 -0000 >Number: 77474 >Category: advocacy >Synopsis: [patch] security update: port www/mod_python to 2.7.11 >Confidential: no >Severity: non-critical >Priority: medium >Responsible: freebsd-advocacy >State: open >Quarter: >Keywords: >Date-Required: >Class: maintainer-update >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Mon Feb 14 04:20:09 GMT 2005 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: Josh Elsasser >Release: FreeBSD 5.3-STABLE i386 >Organization: >Environment: System: FreeBSD 5.3-STABLE #0: Tue Jan 11 20:07:24 EST 2005 joshe@loki.nat.elsasser.org:/usr/local/obj/usr/src/sys/LOKI >Description: Version 2.7.11 of mod_python is a security fix over version 2.7.10. Also, update my email address. >How-To-Repeat: >Fix: --- mod_python.diff begins here --- diff -u -r /usr/ports/www/mod_python/Makefile mod_python/Makefile --- /usr/ports/www/mod_python/Makefile Thu Mar 11 08:20:00 2004 +++ mod_python/Makefile Sun Feb 13 23:04:44 2005 @@ -6,14 +6,14 @@ # PORTNAME= mod_python -PORTVERSION= 2.7.10 +PORTVERSION= 2.7.11 CATEGORIES= www python MASTER_SITES= ${MASTER_SITE_APACHE_HTTPD} MASTER_SITE_SUBDIR= modpython EXTRACT_SUFX= .tgz DIST_SUBDIR= python -MAINTAINER= jre@vineyard.net +MAINTAINER= josh@elsasser.org COMMENT= Apache module for integrating Python USE_APACHE= yes diff -u -r /usr/ports/www/mod_python/distinfo mod_python/distinfo --- /usr/ports/www/mod_python/distinfo Thu Mar 11 08:20:00 2004 +++ mod_python/distinfo Sun Feb 13 23:05:30 2005 @@ -1,2 +1,2 @@ -MD5 (python/mod_python-2.7.10.tgz) = 12c98bdefa06735679efc878b81e9bb2 -SIZE (python/mod_python-2.7.10.tgz) = 175631 +MD5 (python/mod_python-2.7.11.tgz) = edea9de6c6273c1e0df8df4b10d247aa +SIZE (python/mod_python-2.7.11.tgz) = 175763 --- mod_python.diff ends here --- >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 04:48:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 485CF16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:48:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE72643D2D for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:48:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:3758) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0RCc-0003yA-5n; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:22:50 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HXNZ01>; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:02:21 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641A09@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: Ramiro Aceves MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.3: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:48:27 -0000 X-Original-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:58:39 -0800 X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:48:27 -0000 > From: Karol Kwiatkowski [mailto:freebsd@orchid.homeunix.org] > > A bit OT, but to make things clear I'd like to point out it's not the > devil. It's a daemon. > BSD Daemon. I would also like to point out the numerous sports teams with "demon" or "devil" in their name, and their pointy-tailed, pointy-horned, red-skinned mascots. I would also like to point out the logo of a popular brand of deviled ham. Etc, etc. The point is, there are numerous examples of devils, demons and daemons out in the "real" world, and none of them get the grief that Beastie does. I suspect no one has any problem with Beastie other than trolling Linux advocates and hypersensitive BSD advocates. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 05:06:57 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76BE516A4CE; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:06:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from softweyr.homeunix.net (cpe-66-75-60-23.san.rr.com [66.75.60.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC77543D39; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:06:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [204.68.178.187] ([204.68.178.187]) (authenticated bits=0)j1E56rA0039903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-DSS-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:06:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) In-Reply-To: <420AD377.40501@pacific.net.sg> References: <20050209212950.50123.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> <420AD377.40501@pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6bd60dab16fe6a124e4bfc590dec4dbe@softweyr.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Wes Peters Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:06:40 -0800 To: Erich Dollansky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: core@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: kuriyama@freebsd.org cc: stheg olloydson Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:06:57 -0000 On Feb 9, 2005, at 7:22 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > stheg olloydson wrote: > >> Any communications should come from someone with an easy-to-pronounce >> northern European surname (but not French) and, if at all possible, a >> first name that sounds American. > > Can I suggest Mark from a lovely town in Austria? > > www.fucking.at > > This is the next kind of problems FreeBSD could face. Using words > which have a very different meaning in some other language. > > I think it is absolutely not possible to cater for all those things. > > Just leave the logo as it is. That's just the point -- we don't HAVE a logo. We (the FreeBSD Project) have never HAD a logo. Walnut Creek had a few, printed on stickers, that featured FreeBSD (a trademark now owned by the FreeBSD Foundation) and the MASCOT (copyright Kirk McKusick, used by permission). We NEED a logo that reflects what FreeBSD is. The logo needs to convey what FreeBSD is (a computer operating system; fast, stable, secure, etc) in a way that speaks to people of many cultures and can be represented in a number of forms. Ideally, it will print nicely in magazines, on computer case badges, laptop stickers, bumper stickers, beer glasses, coffee mugs, and t-shirts, as well as stitched onto baseball caps, backpacks, and shirts. We're still firming up exactly how the contest will be decided. What every- one has been flying off the handle about was a pre-release of the competition that was likely leaked to slashdot by some charlatan who can't keep private communications private. The logo will (like all important decisions about FreeBSD) be decided by the committers, the people who have contributed their time, effort, and energy to the project, because they are the ones who have the most riding on it. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 05:16:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D545D16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:16:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9D843D1D for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:16:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 759001C00093 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:16:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 46FB71C00092 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:16:33 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050214051633290.46FB71C00092@mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:16:32 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <883004242.20050214061632@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 05:16:35 -0000 Johnson David writes: > Agree and disagree. While FreeBSD is well suited for the server, it's > also well suited for the desktop. Mac OS X is the only type of UNIX well suited to the desktop, and even OS X lags far behind Windows. > That doesn't mean that we should be stressing the desktop to those > shopping for servers, instead it means that we shouldn't be telling > those shopping for desktops to go use Linux instead. They should be told to run Windows on the desktop and FreeBSD on the server. > How many business will be running Linux on the desktop but FreeBSD on the > server? None! Maybe, but how many businesses will be running Linux on the desktop? Only slightly more than none. The very vast majority will be running Windows. So the Linux desktop scenario is a pretty rare one. > Currently Windows rules the desktop world, even for diehard Unix > shops. Exactly. So don't worry about what they are running on the desktop. It will always be Windows, and no version of UNIX can compete against Windows in that role. The only time anyone ever runs anything else on the desktop (other than Mac OS or OS X) is to make a political statement, and few large organizations can afford to make a political statement at the expense of their internal business efficiency. > But that will not last forever. True, but it will last for the foreseeable future, and while it lasts, there's no point in wasting time on the desktop. Neither FreeBSD nor Linux can dethrone Windows in this capacity without something very close to a rewrite (which would make them unsuitable for servers at the same time). The desktop is not that important. People who think it is usually come from a PC background; they've never seen any other kind of computer so they think that the desktop is everything. And they think that whatever OS runs on the desktop is somehow master of the world. But that's not true. The desktop is just the desktop. There are many other types of computers. Servers are the second largest market in terms of installed machines, but they are comparable in dollar value, since servers are much more expensive and often orders of magnitude more important on a unit basis. > We need to start thinking about the desktop today. No, we need to fight the battles that can be won today. And one of those battles is the battle for server share. The desktop is a lost cause right now. Linux is knocking itself out in that battle and is throwing resources out the door in consequence. > We need to stop the official discouragement of desktop FreeBSD. You don't need to officially discourage it. It is sufficient to not waste resources trying to promote it. Put the square peg in the square hole, instead of trying to force it into a round hole just because you're emotionally attached to round pegs. > So how about a "www.serverfreebsd.com" and a "www.desktopfreebsd.com"? You > get the best of both worlds that way. No need. It's the same OS in both cases, and it does some things well (servers) and others not so well (desktops). -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 09:12:30 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FF316A4E5 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:12:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF8C43D3F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:12:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050214091214i92004uea9e>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:12:29 +0000 Message-ID: <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:12:10 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nikolas Britton References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> <420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris Zumbrunn Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:12:30 -0000 Nikolas Britton wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > >> >> The point of all these logos was to show that while it would be >> possible to go in that typical "more corporate" direction, ultimately >> no such logo can beat Beastie. Here are some more... >> >> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freecrap5.gif >> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freecrap4.gif > > > I like 4... Can you humor me and make some mockups of some of the > layouts here? (I'm useless without photoshop and now that I run 100% > BSD at home I don't have it, until I get wine/ps working): > http://www.nbritton.org/uploads/freebsdlogos1.png > umm here's the best I can do with GIMP... http://www.nbritton.org/uploads/newlogo1_c.png http://www.nbritton.org/uploads/newlogo1_gs.png Here's what it would look like on your new site and the (slightly modified) old (current) site. http://www.nbritton.org/uploads/newsite/freebsdweb1h.html http://www.nbritton.org/uploads/oldsite/oldsite.html I think the horns maybe need to be 15% smaller and the tips rounded. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 09:24:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D4616A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:24:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D656843D4C for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:24:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20050214092425i9100k4n7ve>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:24:25 +0000 Message-ID: <42106E45.9000700@nbritton.org> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:24:21 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <883004242.20050214061632@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <883004242.20050214061632@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:24:26 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: >Johnson David writes: > > > >>Agree and disagree. While FreeBSD is well suited for the server, it's >>also well suited for the desktop. >> >> > >Mac OS X is the only type of UNIX well suited to the desktop, and even >OS X lags far behind Windows. > Your spell checker must not have been working because your sentence should have read like this: Mac OS X is the only type of UNIX well suited to the desktop, and even windows lags far behind OS X. No need to thank me and your welcome :-). From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 09:44:24 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C4016A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:44:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C835A43D2D for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:44:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:43:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> <420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:44:21 +0100 To: Nikolas Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:44:24 -0000 On Feb 14, 2005, at 10:12 AM, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Nikolas Britton wrote: > >> Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >> >>> The point of all these logos was to show that while it would be >>> possible to go in that typical "more corporate" direction, >>> ultimately no such logo can beat Beastie. Here are some more... >>> >>> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freecrap5.gif >>> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freecrap4.gif >> >> I like 4... Can you humor me and make some mockups of some of the >> layouts here? (I'm useless without photoshop and now that I run 100% >> BSD at home I don't have it, until I get wine/ps working): >> http://www.nbritton.org/uploads/freebsdlogos1.png >> > umm here's the best I can do with GIMP... > http://www.nbritton.org/uploads/newlogo1_c.png > http://www.nbritton.org/uploads/newlogo1_gs.png Again, my point was, you can create two billion different incarnations of FreeBSD logos with pointy horns and tails - none of them will ever beat Beastie or its silhouette as the strategically most valuable logo choice. FreeBSD has no need to disassociate itself from its BSD history. To the contrary, it's "corporate identity" needs to celebrate that association. My little pointy horns and tails might be pretty, but they are not enough. Beastie always wins. No professional logo designer in their right mind would ever suggest to the FreeBSD project to drop that logo. http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsd.gif chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 11:01:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892C816A4CF for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:01:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B9843D1F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:01:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1EB1n7j015083 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:01:49 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j1EB1mKJ015077 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:01:48 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:01:48 GMT Message-Id: <200502141101.j1EB1mKJ015077@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: peter set sender to owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to you X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:01:49 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems Non-critical problems S Submitted Tracker Resp. Description ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o [2005/02/14] advocacy/77474advocacy [patch] security update: port www/mod_pyt 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 11:39:29 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD0E016A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:39:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DC043D39 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:39:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1EBdNDh031122; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:39:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:39:18 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> <420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:39:29 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: [snip] > Again, my point was, you can create two billion different incarnations > of FreeBSD logos with pointy horns and tails - none of them will ever > beat Beastie or its silhouette as the strategically most valuable logo > choice. No, its not. It may very well be the historically or emotionally most valuable logo, but it is not the strategically most valuable logo. But then again, I guess that all depends on what kind of strategy you live by. If FreeBSD's strategy is to forever remain a niche player with the image of a garage project, then the logo is fine. > FreeBSD has no need to disassociate itself from its BSD history. To the > contrary, it's "corporate identity" needs to celebrate that association. > My little pointy horns and tails might be pretty, but they are not > enough. Beastie always wins. No professional logo designer in their > right mind would ever suggest to the FreeBSD project to drop that logo. I beg to differ, I think that even an amateur logo designer would immediatly suggest that Beastie takes its rightfull place as mascot, and a new logo is created. The reason for this is simple. Beastie *is not a good logo*! It does not scale well to different sizes. It does not work well in print. The copyright is not owned by the FreeBSD project. Beastie is not a symbol of FreeBSD alone, but for all BSD's and in part even UNIX in general. A good logo you should be able to draw freehand on a piece of paper in a minute or less, and it should still be recognizable. Beastie is far to complex. Im willing to bet that not many of us would come up with something that looks like Beastie and still looks good, partly because we are not artist but mostly because Beastie just isnt easy to draw. If people could just put their emotional luggage aside, Im sure this discussion would never have taken place. Dont get me wrong, I love Beastie. Thats also part of why I do not like to see him trying to be something he is not, and in his current form he is not and will never be a good logo! -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 11:54:15 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F3116A4E1 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:54:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C10943D3F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:54:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1EBsBif031340; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:54:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <4210915F.9060602@401.cx> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:54:07 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 4.0: Logo contest, and lessons from the XFree86 d ebacle X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:54:15 -0000 Johnson David wrote: > From: Farid Hajji [mailto:farid.hajji@ob.kamp.net] > >>Remember what happened with the XFree86 project as they choose >>to change their license terms without community support? Now >>we have X.org and most relevant developers moved there, just >>because XFree86's Mgmt failed to address the community's >>concerns appropriately. > > > This is completely different from the current controversy. XFree86 had been > gaining a reputation for quite a while. The licensing switch was merely "the > last straw". The logo issue is very different. Beastie is not going away, as > has been mentioned by numerous posts and clarifications. The logo is > something new, as FreeBSD does not currently have one (neither does OpenBSD > or Linux, BTW). > Linux has no logo? Nor OpenBSD? Really? So what is that red hat I see on www.redhat.com? Or the gecko looking thing on SuSe? Or the whirl thing on Debian? And the blowfish over at www.openbsd.org? Mandrake seems to have a yellow star with a blue tail somehow associated to almost everything it does? If all of the above mentioned isnt logos, then I sure as hell dont know what a logo is. The daemon is to BSD what the penguin is to linux. All of the linux distributions have grasped this years ago and created logos of their own, used individually or together with the penguin without even the slightest problems. But look what happened when someone suggested that maybe we should get a logo too. A never ending flamefest on every mailinglist! We may have better software then the penguin people, but when it comes to marketing they beat the shit out of us. Lets face it. FreeBSD is so far behind *everything* when it comes to marketing its not even funny. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 12:45:24 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C62EB16A4CE; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:45:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBBB43D60; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:45:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joshe@mail.elsasser.org) Received: from mail.elsasser.org ([68.160.36.148]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20050214124523.VBPK11919.out007.verizon.net@mail.elsasser.org>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:45:23 -0600 Received: by mail.elsasser.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 50130159; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:46:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:46:36 -0500 From: Josh Elsasser To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20050214124635.GS2702@jade.elsasser.org> References: <1108354595.0@loki.nat.elsasser.org> <200502140420.j1E4K9Ih031985@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200502140420.j1E4K9Ih031985@freefall.freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-PGP-Key-URL: http://www.elsasser.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-Key-Fingerprint: 8F39 9F2B 3738 54D9 3E40 4604 CFD5 EA3F B833 FD50 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [68.160.36.148] at Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:45:23 -0600 Subject: Re: advocacy/77474: [patch] security update: port www/mod_python to 2.7.11 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:45:24 -0000 Oops. As you can guess, this was supposed to be ports, not advocacy. -jre From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 12:49:48 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A5E916A4CE; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:49:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B0D43D1D; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:49:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ceri@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (ceri@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1ECnl9m031052; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:49:47 GMT (envelope-from ceri@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from ceri@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j1ECnl5N031048; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:49:47 GMT (envelope-from ceri) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:49:47 GMT From: Ceri Davies Message-Id: <200502141249.j1ECnl5N031048@freefall.freebsd.org> To: ceri@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-ports-bugs@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: ports/77474: [patch] security update: port www/mod_python to 2.7.11 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:49:48 -0000 Synopsis: [patch] security update: port www/mod_python to 2.7.11 Responsible-Changed-From-To: freebsd-advocacy->freebsd-ports-bugs Responsible-Changed-By: ceri Responsible-Changed-When: Mon Feb 14 12:49:33 GMT 2005 Responsible-Changed-Why: Misfiled PR. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=77474 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 13:26:22 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E4DD16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:26:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5111A43D1D for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:26:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:25:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk><20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr><420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:26:19 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Subject: Re: Rework of theFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:26:22 -0000 On Feb 14, 2005, at 12:39 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > [snip] > >> Again, my point was, you can create two billion different >> incarnations of FreeBSD logos with pointy horns and tails - none of >> them will ever beat Beastie or its silhouette as the strategically >> most valuable logo choice. > > No, its not. It may very well be the historically or emotionally most > valuable logo, but it is not the strategically most valuable logo. > But then again, I guess that all depends on what kind of strategy you > live by. Exactly! It depends on the kind of strategy! Sticking with Beastie as FreeBSD's logo fits FreeBSD's strategy best! The FreeBSD beastie logo needs to be cleaned up so that its appearance is professional - which I proofed can be done. >> FreeBSD has no need to disassociate itself from its BSD history. To >> the contrary, it's "corporate identity" needs to celebrate that >> association. My little pointy horns and tails might be pretty, but >> they are not enough. Beastie always wins. No professional logo >> designer in their right mind would ever suggest to the FreeBSD >> project to drop that logo. > > I beg to differ, I think that even an amateur logo designer would > immediatly suggest that Beastie takes its rightfull place as mascot, > and a new logo is created. An amateur logo designer, yes - but not a pro! > The reason for this is simple. Beastie *is not a good logo*! > It does not scale well to different sizes. It does not work well in > print. The copyright is not owned by the FreeBSD project. Beastie is > not a symbol of FreeBSD alone, but for all BSD's and in part even UNIX > in general. I believe all these issues have been discussed and resolved on this list during the last few days. The new Beastie silhouette scales and prints well, the copyright holders are approving of FreeBSD's use of Beastie, the FreeBSD foundation already own trademarks for the word FreeBSD. What more can you wish for? > A good logo you should be able to draw freehand on a piece of paper in > a minute or less, and it should still be recognizable. Beastie is far > to complex. Im willing to bet that not many of us would come up with > something that looks like Beastie and still looks good, partly because > we are not artist but mostly because Beastie just isnt easy to draw. Where did you ever hear that? A good logo is instantly recognizable - not "still recognizable after an amateur scribbles it down on a piece of paper". > If people could just put their emotional luggage aside, Im sure this > discussion would never have taken place. Yep! And there are more important things to do than to argue about if a new logo should have two horns and a tail or a fork and two horns: white papers, success stories, good media coverage... Producing these materials is the hard work, not packaging them up in a professional design - that's cheap and easy. Only talk is even cheaper. /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 14:08:59 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F03516A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:08:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19CF943D45 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:08:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1EE8rYQ033214; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:08:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:08:48 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk><20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr><420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of theFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:08:59 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > On Feb 14, 2005, at 12:39 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >> Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >> [snip] >> >>> Again, my point was, you can create two billion different >>> incarnations of FreeBSD logos with pointy horns and tails - none of >>> them will ever beat Beastie or its silhouette as the strategically >>> most valuable logo choice. >> >> No, its not. It may very well be the historically or emotionally most >> valuable logo, but it is not the strategically most valuable logo. >> But then again, I guess that all depends on what kind of strategy you >> live by. > > Exactly! It depends on the kind of strategy! Sticking with Beastie as > FreeBSD's logo fits FreeBSD's strategy best! If the current logo is what fits FreeBSD's strategy best, then Im barking up the wrong tree. I should put all my efforts into changing FreeBSD's strategy instead of the logo. > The FreeBSD beastie logo needs to be cleaned up so that its > appearance is professional - which I proofed can be done. A matter of opinion. As I believe I have explained earlier, I do not find your logo professional. No offense. >>> FreeBSD has no need to disassociate itself from its BSD history. To >>> the contrary, it's "corporate identity" needs to celebrate that >>> association. My little pointy horns and tails might be pretty, but >>> they are not enough. Beastie always wins. No professional logo >>> designer in their right mind would ever suggest to the FreeBSD >>> project to drop that logo. >> >> >> I beg to differ, I think that even an amateur logo designer would >> immediatly suggest that Beastie takes its rightfull place as mascot, >> and a new logo is created. > > An amateur logo designer, yes - but not a pro! Notice that I said *even* an amateur, which implies that a pro would most certainly do it too. This discussion is already just marginally keeping a level that Im willing to accept, if it sinks down to a battle of marking words, I will withdraw. >> The reason for this is simple. Beastie *is not a good logo*! >> It does not scale well to different sizes. It does not work well in >> print. The copyright is not owned by the FreeBSD project. Beastie is >> not a symbol of FreeBSD alone, but for all BSD's and in part even UNIX >> in general. > > I believe all these issues have been discussed and resolved on this list > during the last few days. The new Beastie silhouette scales and prints > well, the copyright holders are approving of FreeBSD's use of Beastie, > the FreeBSD foundation already own trademarks for the word FreeBSD. What > more can you wish for? As stated, I do not feel that the Beastie silhouette qualifies. Copyright approval or not, the copyright holder can at any time withdraw that approval and leave the project hanging. No serious project, corporation or company would even consider using a logo that they didnt fully own! What the *word* trademark has to do with this discussion I do not understand. We have afaik never been discussing the name of the project, have we? >> A good logo you should be able to draw freehand on a piece of paper in >> a minute or less, and it should still be recognizable. Beastie is far >> to complex. Im willing to bet that not many of us would come up with >> something that looks like Beastie and still looks good, partly because >> we are not artist but mostly because Beastie just isnt easy to draw. > > Where did you ever hear that? A good logo is instantly recognizable - > not "still recognizable after an amateur scribbles it down on a piece of > paper". > >> If people could just put their emotional luggage aside, Im sure this >> discussion would never have taken place. > > Yep! And there are more important things to do than to argue about if a > new logo should have two horns and a tail or a fork and two horns: white > papers, success stories, good media coverage... Producing these > materials is the hard work, not packaging them up in a professional > design - that's cheap and easy. Only talk is even cheaper. Im really trying to explain this. Maybe its because Im not a native english speaker or maybe we just have very different point of views. Whatever the reason, I cant seem to get it trough! You can produce all the success stories, white papers, TCO and ROI numbers, stats and graphs and commercial crap you want. As long as it looks like something a bunch of teenagers slapped together in MS Paint, you will not get media coverage and no serious company will listen to you! The facts may be correct, but if presented in a bad way, nobody will care about them. Im not a programmer. I cant contribute to the project in form of code. Im not rich, so I cant really contribute in forms of donations or hardware either. However, I, and many like me, are willing to contribute time and effort in trying to improve FreeBSD's image, so that the people that do know how to code can go back to doing exactly that without having to worry about things like PR and marketing. If I can spend one day on marketing to save even a few hours of a programmers time so he can spend it programming, I think its worth it. Dont you? If you could show me one important thing that needs to be done that I am capable of doing, and that would really help the project, let me know and I will drop the logo debate and attend to that instead. I have not been able to find such a thing, therefor Im still trying to show the world what a great os FreeBSD really is, but frankly, the unwillingness of some people to accept that help really starts to wear me down. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 15:07:45 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA2216A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:07:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.200]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C7043D1D for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:07:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so623926wra for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:07:42 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=V/HCujCnlwPkhVA24x0OnEb+duP79gD3VqmLaphYgAu6f/viIsZbPkLHddK4nhvhOOgJ2mvEhPVJNCZNpvb3YMG60R9JLgnL2jeYVXhYAw3nOx0qd07MTZynNbXKpnCS/7N5lI60Ywpixq2uBpWdhQZ+NAvVwLJ1yceiUt+Zor0= Received: by 10.54.16.9 with SMTP id 9mr33103wrp; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:07:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:07:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e05021407076c4936c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:07:40 -0600 From: Astrodog To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg In-Reply-To: <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> <420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris Zumbrunn Subject: Re: Rework of theFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:07:45 -0000 To all of you talking about FreeBSD's "Logo" vs Mascot, vs whatever, Those of you who feel FreeBSD's current image, in Beastie, is somehow holding it back, as opposed to no real PR effort, and the complete lack of attention befalling ULE, or some scheduler that's proper for SMP... get real. FreeBSD's market share on edge webservers exceeds that of any Linux distro, and is almost larger than all Linux distributions combined. Companies are perfectly happy with Beastie. More accurately, they don't care. I've never heard someone say, "We use Linux.... because the Pinguin is professional." Or "Windows - Oooooooh. Pretty 4 squares waving in the wind!" (MSCE's aside. ;)) When it comes right down to it, NO ONE outside of the FreeBSD project gives a damn what we have as a mascot/logo/whatever. What they care about, is really quite simple. "Why should we use FreeBSD, as opposed to Linux, Windows, et al?". If we can't answer that, then THAT is the big problem, not Beastie, not the devil-looking aspects of him, and certainly not the fact that Beastie is a pain in the ass to print. People have shown quite well that Beastie can be converted to a single color, and its recognizable, and looks good, but when it comes down to it, it is irrelevant. Focus on the technical merits, or start putting together marketing material for businesses. We have another list going as "Business Information" on that. Otherwise, put in your two cents, and move on. Lets solve the real, technical problems first, and worry about the "Beastie isn't pretty-boy enough" debate later. FreeBSD has always, and will always, mostly be sold on its technical merits. Lets not lose sight of those, in the rush to either trample, or prop up Beastie. If you're interested in marketing materials for businesses, I once again refer you to the Business Information thread on this same list. "Technical Merits First, Other Crap Second." Everyone, repeat that 50 times, like a mantra. We're losing sight of that, at least short term, and it's somewhat frightening. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 15:11:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BFD16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:11:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0640A43D4C for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:11:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:10:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk><20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr><420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3bc9c97926da594f36a01a8804445a73@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:11:23 +0100 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of theFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:11:25 -0000 On Feb 14, 2005, at 3:08 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > What the *word* trademark has to do with this discussion I do not > understand. We have afaik never been discussing the name of the > project, have we? Because the FreeBSD project owns trademarks for the word "FREEBSD" it doesn't need to protect a specific graphical design. > You can produce all the success stories, white papers, TCO and ROI > numbers, stats and graphs and commercial crap you want. As long as it > looks like something a bunch of teenagers slapped together in MS > Paint, you will not get media coverage and no serious company will > listen to you! The facts may be correct, but if presented in a bad > way, nobody will care about them. Agreed. > Im not a programmer. I cant contribute to the project in form of code. > Im not rich, so I cant really contribute in forms of donations or > hardware either. However, I, and many like me, are willing to > contribute time and effort in trying to improve FreeBSD's image, so > that the people that do know how to code can go back to doing exactly > that without having to worry about things like PR and marketing. If I > can spend one day on marketing to save even a few hours of a > programmers time so he can spend it programming, I think its worth it. > Dont you? Yes! Sure I do! I just think there is to much talk about a redesign and not enough action - don't you agree with that? > If you could show me one important thing that needs to be done that I > am capable of doing, and that would really help the project, let me > know and I will drop the logo debate and attend to that instead. I > have not been able to find such a thing, therefor Im still trying to > show the world what a great os FreeBSD really is, but frankly, the > unwillingness of some people to accept that help really starts to wear > me down. Either a new separate freebsd.com home page or the current freebsd.org home page will need to include links to tons of good marketing material? Where is all that material? Can you collect the bits and pieces that could be used? Maybe create some yourself? /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 15:37:16 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8B716A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:37:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4D743D4C for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:37:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1EFb9p1034387; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:37:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <4210C5A0.9040004@401.cx> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:37:04 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk><20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr><420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> <3bc9c97926da594f36a01a8804445a73@czv.com> In-Reply-To: <3bc9c97926da594f36a01a8804445a73@czv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of theFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:37:16 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > On Feb 14, 2005, at 3:08 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >> What the *word* trademark has to do with this discussion I do not >> understand. We have afaik never been discussing the name of the >> project, have we? > > > Because the FreeBSD project owns trademarks for the word "FREEBSD" it > doesn't need to protect a specific graphical design. If the specific graphical design is the official logo of FreeBSD, it should of course be protected. You might not be aware that our beloved Beastie is used as a logo by a company that manufacturers condoms. I do not like that, but since its officially not our logo, I cant really do anything about it. McKusick might be able to do something, but I leave that up to him. >> You can produce all the success stories, white papers, TCO and ROI >> numbers, stats and graphs and commercial crap you want. As long as it >> looks like something a bunch of teenagers slapped together in MS >> Paint, you will not get media coverage and no serious company will >> listen to you! The facts may be correct, but if presented in a bad >> way, nobody will care about them. > > > Agreed. > >> Im not a programmer. I cant contribute to the project in form of code. >> Im not rich, so I cant really contribute in forms of donations or >> hardware either. However, I, and many like me, are willing to >> contribute time and effort in trying to improve FreeBSD's image, so >> that the people that do know how to code can go back to doing exactly >> that without having to worry about things like PR and marketing. If I >> can spend one day on marketing to save even a few hours of a >> programmers time so he can spend it programming, I think its worth it. >> Dont you? > > > Yes! Sure I do! I just think there is to much talk about a redesign > and not enough action - don't you agree with that? Fully agree, and believe me, Im trying to make a change. As we speak, I have photoshop running, working on several different types of logos. Just last night, I was in a discussion with other people sharing my thoughts on the subject, and we are making a serious attempt at getting organized. However, we are too few to really matter, and need all the help we can get. And as long as we are meet by nothing but hostality everytime we make a suggestion, it doesnt really matter how much material we produce, does it? Hence, Im trying to keep the discussion alive. >> If you could show me one important thing that needs to be done that I >> am capable of doing, and that would really help the project, let me >> know and I will drop the logo debate and attend to that instead. I >> have not been able to find such a thing, therefor Im still trying to >> show the world what a great os FreeBSD really is, but frankly, the >> unwillingness of some people to accept that help really starts to wear >> me down. > > > Either a new separate freebsd.com home page or the current freebsd.org > home page will need to include links to tons of good marketing > material? Where is all that material? Can you collect the bits and > pieces that could be used? Maybe create some yourself? Trust me, work are being done in all those areas. But as long as we dont have the support of the community and more importantly the project, the hours we spend on this is a waste of time. Im not trying to get permission to improve freebsd's image, that I will continue to do with or without explicit permission. What I am trying to do is raise some help or atleast support for what I and others have already started. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 15:57:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBEDC16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:57:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 690A943D41 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:57:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so634080wra for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:57:46 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=iIJELWnQIGpjCYUGrCBt5jhk3Xa/JmniRFVl/N5/MBSfr/eXMtpbJ8jdctpzuv74DNh79u1nHRldlVvgN0/Yh1qTI72VeEMFDPhjaTRu4Axy3hh1hv+qDjB/dLhpwyyAvETwUOqn/Hdh1KMT3YNsRdSVBcMNjhy+S2HHZVpmbSQ= Received: by 10.54.32.13 with SMTP id f13mr109065wrf; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:57:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:57:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e05021407576d7a873c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:57:46 -0800 From: Astrodog To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg In-Reply-To: <4210C5A0.9040004@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> <3bc9c97926da594f36a01a8804445a73@czv.com> <4210C5A0.9040004@401.cx> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris Zumbrunn Subject: Re: Rework of theFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:57:48 -0000 On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:37:04 +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > > > On Feb 14, 2005, at 3:08 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > > > >> What the *word* trademark has to do with this discussion I do not > >> understand. We have afaik never been discussing the name of the > >> project, have we? > > > > > > Because the FreeBSD project owns trademarks for the word "FREEBSD" it > > doesn't need to protect a specific graphical design. > > If the specific graphical design is the official logo of FreeBSD, > it should of course be protected. > You might not be aware that our beloved Beastie is used as a logo > by a company that manufacturers condoms. I do not like that, but > since its officially not our logo, I cant really do anything > about it. McKusick might be able to do something, but I leave > that up to him. A condom manufacturer? So? Somehow, I can't see an IT manager going... "Oh! We can't use this! This logo was on the condom I used last night!" Pfft. > >> You can produce all the success stories, white papers, TCO and ROI > >> numbers, stats and graphs and commercial crap you want. As long as it > >> looks like something a bunch of teenagers slapped together in MS > >> Paint, you will not get media coverage and no serious company will > >> listen to you! The facts may be correct, but if presented in a bad > >> way, nobody will care about them. > > If you put those materials together, and don't use a damn crayon, they present themselves for the most part. They're raw text. Beastie being on the header or not is irrelevent. > > > > Agreed. I'd like to point out for a moment here, that the actual CODE behind Linux, let alone the logo, was slapped together by someone who was almost a teenager, in a space smaller than a garage. Let me reinterate. The REAL work that needs to be done here isn't some logo. Its the real studies, the proof, that FreeBSD stands on its technical merits. People might not like to believe this, but suits listen, when you can show them how those technical merits effect the bottom line. > > > >> Im not a programmer. I cant contribute to the project in form of code. > >> Im not rich, so I cant really contribute in forms of donations or > >> hardware either. However, I, and many like me, are willing to > >> contribute time and effort in trying to improve FreeBSD's image, so > >> that the people that do know how to code can go back to doing exactly > >> that without having to worry about things like PR and marketing. If I > >> can spend one day on marketing to save even a few hours of a > >> programmers time so he can spend it programming, I think its worth it. > >> Dont you? > > When you raise this debate, it takes the time of programmers to respond, because there are certainly opinions on that side of the fence, on where to take this. In as far as code goes, I wasn't a programmer until I started working on FreeBSD. The PR stuff, once again, isn't a logo. Its the REAL WORK. The case studies, the return on investment numbers, the total cost of ownership stuff.... THAT is what suits care about. Not, "Gee, was this on the condom I used?" > > > > Yes! Sure I do! I just think there is to much talk about a redesign > > and not enough action - don't you agree with that? > > Fully agree, and believe me, Im trying to make a change. > As we speak, I have photoshop running, working on several > different types of logos. Just last night, I was in a discussion > with other people sharing my thoughts on the subject, and we are > making a serious attempt at getting organized. However, we are > too few to really matter, and need all the help we can get. And > as long as we are meet by nothing but hostality everytime we make > a suggestion, it doesnt really matter how much material we > produce, does it? > Hence, Im trying to keep the discussion alive. > Great. > >> If you could show me one important thing that needs to be done that I > >> am capable of doing, and that would really help the project, let me > >> know and I will drop the logo debate and attend to that instead. I > >> have not been able to find such a thing, therefor Im still trying to > >> show the world what a great os FreeBSD really is, but frankly, the > >> unwillingness of some people to accept that help really starts to wear > >> me down. > > > > Advocate FreeBSD. Do the research needed to get ROI numbers. Research how FreeBSD makes fincancial sense for a business. > > Either a new separate freebsd.com home page or the current freebsd.org > > home page will need to include links to tons of good marketing > > material? Where is all that material? Can you collect the bits and > > pieces that could be used? Maybe create some yourself? > Indeed. > Trust me, work are being done in all those areas. But as long as > we dont have the support of the community and more importantly > the project, the hours we spend on this is a waste of time. > Im not trying to get permission to improve freebsd's image, that > I will continue to do with or without explicit permission. > What I am trying to do is raise some help or atleast support for > what I and others have already started. > No offense to core, but if you think this material won't be useful, without community and core support, you're nuts. This isn't code. No one must approve it to be committed. Even if its AGAINST FreeBSD, there's pretty much nothing the community and project can do about it. Put together the materials, and if they are useful, I trust core will find them a home. If they aren't, they won't. Technical Merit extends beyond code, to all aspects of FreeBSD in my opinion. If something is good, it gets used. If it isn't, it doesn't. Industry rags put together benchmarks, TCO numbers, and ROI numbers, with and without the permission of the OS's developers all the time. Those numbers are certainly looked at, sometimes with more credibility than what the developers themselves put out. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 16:05:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AA4616A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:05:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3A0D43D1F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:05:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7A2631C000BA for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:05:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 52DE61C00096 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:05:02 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050214160502340.52DE61C00096@mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:05:01 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <338059784.20050214170501@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3bc9c97926da594f36a01a8804445a73@czv.com> References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk><20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr><420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> <3bc9c97926da594f36a01a8804445a73@czv.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Rework of theFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:05:04 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn writes: > Because the FreeBSD project owns trademarks for the word "FREEBSD" it > doesn't need to protect a specific graphical design. It owns the FREEBSD trademark only in a very specific domain, and that domain, strangely, is not the domain of computer operating systems. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 16:11:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA5F016A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:11:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4810443D31 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:11:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7A8E41C000B0 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:11:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3C93C1C0004F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:11:22 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050214161122248.3C93C1C0004F@mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:11:21 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <964903357.20050214171121@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4210C5A0.9040004@401.cx> References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk><20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr><420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> <3bc9c97926da594f36a01a8804445a73@czv.com> <4210C5A0.9040004@401.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Rework of theFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:11:23 -0000 Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg writes: > You might not be aware that our beloved Beastie is used as a logo > by a company that manufacturers condoms. I do not like that, but > since its officially not our logo, I cant really do anything > about it. This isn't quite true. You can defend a trademark even if it isn't registered. You must only show that you use it regularly and consistently to identify a product or service. However, to successfully sue someone else for using the trademark, you must show that their use dilutes the value of your use. Since condoms and operating systems are two very different things, it's unlikely that using a similar trademark for both would dilute the value of either. > Trust me, work are being done in all those areas. But as long as > we dont have the support of the community and more importantly > the project, the hours we spend on this is a waste of time. > Im not trying to get permission to improve freebsd's image, that > I will continue to do with or without explicit permission. YOu don't actually need permission, although obviously it would help to have the cooperation of the people who write the OS. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 16:41:00 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6731816A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:41:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9E70543D41 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:40:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:40:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: <338059784.20050214170501@wanadoo.fr> References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk><20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr><420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org><420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org><42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org><42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> <3bc9c97926da594f36a01a8804445a73@czv.com> <338059784.20050214170501@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <493aac279efbad1800cbae6538c6e222@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:40:58 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Subject: Re: Rework oftheFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:41:00 -0000 On Feb 14, 2005, at 5:05 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn writes: > >> Because the FreeBSD project owns trademarks for the word "FREEBSD" it >> doesn't need to protect a specific graphical design. > > It owns the FREEBSD trademark only in a very specific domain, and that > domain, strangely, is not the domain of computer operating systems. On Feb 14, 2005, at 2:22 AM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > The FreeBSD foundation is updating this to reflect the current use. /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 16:41:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FCAD16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:41:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11D343D39 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:41:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kjelderg@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so678893rnf for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:41:31 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=bXXnVaMIQZZqXhS4STH5xj52NvyzeloOkjxKenU12jcP/lVLpU4r64mDUpKHzcSYsh3Lmv8LqDF8PVNr8BnXN5F+xsFu+0Ezhium1X52i9UKs8jWurnYb9s91qRydlhoNJHQXbmNFtGgzSgTnlH/U4kKSB4YmYhhEwDaRF8tFdI= Received: by 10.38.150.66 with SMTP id x66mr70534rnd; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:41:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.101.19 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:41:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:41:30 -0600 From: Eric Kjeldergaard To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eric Kjeldergaard List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:41:32 -0000 wrote: > From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > > > > Because FreeBSD is a server, not a desktop. > > Agree and disagree. While FreeBSD is well suited for the server, it's also > well suited for the desktop. That doesn't mean that we should be stressing > the desktop to those shopping for servers, instead it means that we > shouldn't be telling those shopping for desktops to go use Linux instead. > How many business will be running Linux on the desktop but FreeBSD on the > server? None! > > Currently Windows rules the desktop world, even for diehard Unix shops. But > that will not last forever. We need to start thinking about the desktop > today. We need to stop the official discouragement of desktop FreeBSD. I wholeheartedly agree with this. FreeBSD simply is a better desktop in many circumstances than Windows. This is not all due to the primary software developers. There are several reasons why Free Unix machines (or "Unix-Like" machines) are better suited to the desktop in many instances, from a user perspective. 1) Cost (in $$$): FreeBSD is free. Most of its third-party software, also free. This is a big advantage to the many businesses that have difficulty affording hundreds and often thousands of dollars per machine in software. 2) Security: FreeBSD has rather a notable track record for security. I know of no examples in which an email client or web browser has been able to execute arbitrary code, sometimes even outside of its permissions level. Windows (possibly due in part to exposure) has a deplorable track record. Patches come out often to fix known security holes, but sometimes weeks or months after the hole has been found and reported publicly. 3) Stability: FreeBSD is possibly the most stable OS currently in existence. For some people's desktops that does not matter. However, there are mission-critical desktops in existence and sometimes crashing is not allowed. There are also desktops where reboots aren't an easy option and (ties back to security) things that require reboots are often necessary in the Windows environment. 4) Flexibility (especially mutliuser): This one is probably the most important. When dealing with desktops, the ability to make it act appropriately for the intended users is integral to its success or failure as a desktop OS. This is something which Windows sadly lacks and something which X11-based desktops truly deliver. There are many examples of features that are simply lacking from Windows one user interface. It lacks features (available to users in general) of a window manager (always-on-top, for instance) and the ability to change appearance much (no window decorations or different window decorations) which are often very convenient for desktop users. It is also not good for the multilingual desktop setting. This setting for businesses and public places is VERY important. In order to have a Chinese (for example) user interface in Windows, you need acquire a Chinese release of Windows. If you needed both Chinese and Spanish (again, for example) you would need to dual-boot the computer. Since Windows does not officially support dual-booting on one partition, this means a lot of inconvenience. 5) Ease of development: A place where non-windows becomes substantially more prevalent in the desktop market is the desks of Software Engineers. Those of us that program for a living often choose Unix (or Unix-like) because it has a powerful terminal, good (and free/OSS) versioning software available, good (and in gcc's case free and OSS) compilers, excellent editors (free, OSS), excellent documentation systems (man is free and OSS, for instance), and wonderful debuggers (gdb...free, OSS). It also is capable of running the same software that we are running on our Unix servers so that we can work on applications that work with them in an environment that simulates the server. It is also remarkably stable during development. This makes debugging substantially simpler. Windows, however, is often not the environment on the server, has a weak terminal, a few decent editors (often ported from Unix), a frustrating development environment (Visual Studio), and is often in need of reboots when programming and debugging. 6) mutliusericity: (Yes, I know that's not a real word...) In general, Windows does not handle multiple simultaneous users. This is something that Unix was built around and thus is strong with. The need to do this on a desktop is somewhat rare, but when it exists is readily and comfortably handled in Unix, while in some situations impossible in Windows. And even when talking of non-concurrent multiuser situations, FreeBSD outperforms (largely due to the third-party software writers and to the permissions system built in). Windows has a major fault with multiple users and appropriate storage of settings. Many applications (including M$ apps proper) do not separately store settings in a user-by-user basis and instead toss them into the centralised registry as a system setting. This is both a security nightmare and a frustration to the various users. This situation simply doesn't come up in fBSD. If a user stores a setting, it is stored (generally) in their home directory safe from affecting other users. Just thought I'd give a few reasons why fBSD is the only OS that doesn't frustrate me on the desktop. -- If I write a signature, my emails will appear more personalised. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 16:43:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7EFE16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:43:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 73A4243D39 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:43:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 12165 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2005 16:43:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by sarajevo with SMTP; 14 Feb 2005 16:43:53 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050214164352.FBID1207.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:43:52 +0800 Message-ID: <4210D5C6.1010509@pacific.net.sg> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:45:58 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Astrodog References: <517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> <420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> <2fd864e05021407076c4936c2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2fd864e05021407076c4936c2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris Zumbrunn Subject: Re: Rework of theFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:43:56 -0000 Hi, Astrodog wrote: > "Technical Merits First, Other Crap Second." Everyone, repeat that 50 > times, like a mantra. We're losing sight of that, at least short term, > and it's somewhat frightening. > It really is. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 16:55:42 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D0C16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:55:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 771AF43D2F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:55:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so645138wra for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:55:41 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=dNtihz7fiFThGO+sXWEtuN6GOehNDepBdfmO2ZqmEaKWbJK0371wnbG0l77pvT5Z4oTEgfer9r69fs2Feedzt03Es/OHbcQkmqg3iZsmbyEriMDrItbVc/FO9r6zr2D4rzcZX+c9XNopM274kWTSlqvgxcPGRMLwYGlZUDRZlOM= Received: by 10.54.32.13 with SMTP id f13mr148666wrf; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:55:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e050214085579b3202a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:55:40 -0800 From: Astrodog To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg In-Reply-To: <4210915F.9060602@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <4210915F.9060602@401.cx> cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 4.0: Logo contest, and lessons from the XFree86 d ebacle X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:55:42 -0000 On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:54:07 +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Johnson David wrote: > > From: Farid Hajji [mailto:farid.hajji@ob.kamp.net] > > > >>Remember what happened with the XFree86 project as they choose > >>to change their license terms without community support? Now > >>we have X.org and most relevant developers moved there, just > >>because XFree86's Mgmt failed to address the community's > >>concerns appropriately. > > > > > > This is completely different from the current controversy. XFree86 had been > > gaining a reputation for quite a while. The licensing switch was merely "the > > last straw". The logo issue is very different. Beastie is not going away, as > > has been mentioned by numerous posts and clarifications. The logo is > > something new, as FreeBSD does not currently have one (neither does OpenBSD > > or Linux, BTW). > > > > Linux has no logo? Nor OpenBSD? Really? > So what is that red hat I see on www.redhat.com? Or the gecko > looking thing on SuSe? Or the whirl thing on Debian? And the > blowfish over at www.openbsd.org? Mandrake seems to have a yellow > star with a blue tail somehow associated to almost everything it > does? > If all of the above mentioned isnt logos, then I sure as hell > dont know what a logo is. > > The daemon is to BSD what the penguin is to linux. All of the > linux distributions have grasped this years ago and created logos > of their own, used individually or together with the penguin > without even the slightest problems. But look what happened when > someone suggested that maybe we should get a logo too. A never > ending flamefest on every mailinglist! > We may have better software then the penguin people, but when it > comes to marketing they beat the shit out of us. > Lets face it. FreeBSD is so far behind *everything* when it comes > to marketing its not even funny. > > -- > R > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > I would like to point out that Turbo-Linux, BeOS, and OS/2, are all currently marketed worse than FreeBSD. ;) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 17:05:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB0616A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:05:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 13E2043D48 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:05:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:05:08 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4210C5A0.9040004@401.cx> References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk><20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr><9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr><420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> <3bc9c97926da594f36a01a8804445a73@czv.com> <4210C5A0.9040004@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <2a164d875d9e71d8cd3b4f209726256f@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:05:50 +0100 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of theFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:05:52 -0000 On Feb 14, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >> On Feb 14, 2005, at 3:08 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >>> What the *word* trademark has to do with this discussion I do not >>> understand. We have afaik never been discussing the name of the >>> project, have we? >> Because the FreeBSD project owns trademarks for the word "FREEBSD" it >> doesn't need to protect a specific graphical design. > > If the specific graphical design is the official logo of FreeBSD, it > should of course be protected. Why? That money is better spent extending the trademark of the word "FREEBSD" to additional jurisdictions. /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 17:21:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0858416A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:21:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 011E843D2D for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:21:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1EHLgWk035973; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:21:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <4210DE89.5060003@401.cx> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:23:21 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Astrodog References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <4210915F.9060602@401.cx> <2fd864e050214085579b3202a@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2fd864e050214085579b3202a@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 4.0: Logo contest, and lessons from the XFree86 d ebacle X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:21:49 -0000 Astrodog wrote: > On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:54:07 +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg > wrote: > >>Johnson David wrote: >> >>>From: Farid Hajji [mailto:farid.hajji@ob.kamp.net] >>> >>> >>>>Remember what happened with the XFree86 project as they choose >>>>to change their license terms without community support? Now >>>>we have X.org and most relevant developers moved there, just >>>>because XFree86's Mgmt failed to address the community's >>>>concerns appropriately. >>> >>> >>>This is completely different from the current controversy. XFree86 had been >>>gaining a reputation for quite a while. The licensing switch was merely "the >>>last straw". The logo issue is very different. Beastie is not going away, as >>>has been mentioned by numerous posts and clarifications. The logo is >>>something new, as FreeBSD does not currently have one (neither does OpenBSD >>>or Linux, BTW). >>> >> >>Linux has no logo? Nor OpenBSD? Really? >>So what is that red hat I see on www.redhat.com? Or the gecko >>looking thing on SuSe? Or the whirl thing on Debian? And the >>blowfish over at www.openbsd.org? Mandrake seems to have a yellow >>star with a blue tail somehow associated to almost everything it >>does? >>If all of the above mentioned isnt logos, then I sure as hell >>dont know what a logo is. >> >>The daemon is to BSD what the penguin is to linux. All of the >>linux distributions have grasped this years ago and created logos >>of their own, used individually or together with the penguin >>without even the slightest problems. But look what happened when >>someone suggested that maybe we should get a logo too. A never >>ending flamefest on every mailinglist! >>We may have better software then the penguin people, but when it >>comes to marketing they beat the shit out of us. >>Lets face it. FreeBSD is so far behind *everything* when it comes >>to marketing its not even funny. >> >>-- >>R > > I would like to point out that Turbo-Linux, BeOS, and OS/2, are all > currently marketed worse than FreeBSD. ;) And afaik, both BeOS and OS/2 are dead. None of them died because of inferior quality or lack of innovation. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 17:31:50 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0284316A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:31:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C61943D3F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:31:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1EHVhu8036084; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:31:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <4210E0E1.5000907@401.cx> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:33:21 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Dollansky References: <517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> <420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> <2fd864e05021407076c4936c2@mail.gmail.com> <4210D5C6.1010509@pacific.net.sg> In-Reply-To: <4210D5C6.1010509@pacific.net.sg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0506-1, 2005-02-11), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris Zumbrunn Subject: Re: Rework of theFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:31:50 -0000 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > Astrodog wrote: > >> "Technical Merits First, Other Crap Second." Everyone, repeat that 50 >> times, like a mantra. We're losing sight of that, at least short term, >> and it's somewhat frightening. >> > It really is. Im unable to do even the slightest bit of difference in the first part (Technical Merits) simply due to the fact that I lack the needed skills. Therefor, the second part (Other Crap) gets promoted on my to-do list and becomes *my* highest priority. This does *not* mean that the projects priorities change, nor that they in any way should. Just because a small part of the community feels that they cant contribute in other areas then marketing and advocacy and therefor prioritize that, it does not mean that the project as a whole is losing focus. FreeBSD is a project that goes across cultural and geographical borders, and it has thousands of contributors world wide. The fact that not all of them contribute in the form of code does not make FreeBSD less of a technically oriented project. Programmers and technical decisions should always be what dictates the future of FreeBSD, but that does not mean that all other areas has to be alienated. Please realize that. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 17:45:12 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD71916A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:45:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 243D843D2D for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:45:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:44:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4210E0E1.5000907@401.cx> References: <517329304.20050213155432@wanadoo.fr> <420FB80B.7040209@nbritton.org> <420FD36F.7050302@nbritton.org> <42106B6A.9030109@nbritton.org> <42108DE6.4000706@401.cx> <4210B0F0.4040508@401.cx> <2fd864e05021407076c4936c2@mail.gmail.com> <4210D5C6.1010509@pacific.net.sg> <4210E0E1.5000907@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <56ea5ff93d2fcc615a89e1a768ec36a1@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:45:10 +0100 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework oftheFreeBSDwebsite[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:45:13 -0000 On Feb 14, 2005, at 6:33 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Erich Dollansky wrote: >> Hi, >> Astrodog wrote: >>> "Technical Merits First, Other Crap Second." Everyone, repeat that 50 >>> times, like a mantra. We're losing sight of that, at least short >>> term, >>> and it's somewhat frightening. >>> >> It really is. > > Im unable to do even the slightest bit of difference in the first part > (Technical Merits) simply due to the fact that I lack the needed > skills. Therefor, the second part (Other Crap) gets promoted on my > to-do list and becomes *my* highest priority. > This does *not* mean that the projects priorities change, nor that > they in any way should. > Just because a small part of the community feels that they cant > contribute in other areas then marketing and advocacy and therefor > prioritize that, it does not mean that the project as a whole is > losing focus. > FreeBSD is a project that goes across cultural and geographical > borders, and it has thousands of contributors world wide. The fact > that not all of them contribute in the form of code does not make > FreeBSD less of a technically oriented project. Programmers and > technical decisions should always be what dictates the future of > FreeBSD, but that does not mean that all other areas has to be > alienated. Please realize that. I'm sure you're very much welcome to contribute in the marketing and advocacy area! There is lots that needs to be produced! /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 18:06:45 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1804916A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:06:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2293943D1D for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:06:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 3692 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2005 18:06:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 14 Feb 2005 18:06:42 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050214180641.FEAW1207.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:06:41 +0800 Message-ID: <4210E930.2080500@pacific.net.sg> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:08:48 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AD9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <4210915F.9060602@401.cx> <2fd864e050214085579b3202a@mail.gmail.com> <4210DE89.5060003@401.cx> In-Reply-To: <4210DE89.5060003@401.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 4.0: Logo contest, and lessons from the XFree86 d ebacle X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:06:45 -0000 Hi, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Astrodog wrote: > >> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:54:07 +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg >> wrote: >> >>> Johnson David wrote: >>> >>>> From: Farid Hajji [mailto:farid.hajji@ob.kamp.net] >>>> >> I would like to point out that Turbo-Linux, BeOS, and OS/2, are all >> currently marketed worse than FreeBSD. ;) > > > And afaik, both BeOS and OS/2 are dead. > None of them died because of inferior quality or lack of innovation. > If I remember right, all of them have good logos. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 18:39:54 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B261116A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:39:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B4243D31 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:39:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:1414) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0l7t-0007QJ-5f for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:39:17 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HXPV1B>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:40:03 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEC@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:40:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.3: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:39:54 -0000 From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > To advocate FreeBSD, you must explain why FreeBSD is preferable to other > operating systems. It is not sufficient to say that there is no reason > why someone _cannot_ put FreeBSD on the desktop. The latter response > means that you'll be thanked for your time, and the Microsoft > salesperson will be shown into the conference room. Whereupon the Microsoft salesman will proceed to make a sale for IIS and Exchange on the server. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 19:02:57 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DDF716A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:02:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq3.home.nl (smtpq3.home.nl [213.51.128.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 125E643D5C for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:02:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@offmyserver.com) Received: from [213.51.128.134] (port=48752 helo=smtp3.home.nl) by smtpq3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0lUm-0005NY-6S for advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:02:56 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:34132 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0lUk-0008Ec-BX for advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:02:54 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Offmyserver, Inc. Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:02:53 +0100 Message-Id: <1108407773.5122.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Subject: Call for Whitepapers X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:02:57 -0000 Hey, As you might have found out from the ocean of posts on the recent threads on this list, I recently advocated actually doing some work on a ``FreeBSD.com''-esque site: A site that targets the business- and enterprise-class with information about our lovely OS. While we're still in the planning phases of the site, we would like to open the doors for relevant documents. We're looking for the following: * Case Studies - Documents discussing how FreeBSD plays a key role in your company's projects. * Whitepapers - Documents discussing how you've used FreeBSD as a key piece of product and outlining its implementation. * Marketing material - Have you published documents promoting FreeBSD for any certain application? We'd like to see them. * Other relevant stuff - If it's not listed here, but it'd probably be useful, just send it :). Can't do any harm. By submitting this, you'll be granting us to publish it in its submitted form, so please be sure this is acceptable for your company before you submit. I don't want to cause any IP wars :) Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell on behalf of the ``FreeBSD.com-esque project'' From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 19:18:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D5616A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:18:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B009A43D31 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:18:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:3824) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0lj3-0003E7-4q for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:17:41 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HXPWBR>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:18:26 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEE@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:18:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:18:18 -0000 Apologies for any multiple posts I might have "sent". My work's Exchange server has been acting bizarre all weekend. Last night at home I suddenly received a duplicate of every email I had ever sent to myself from work. This morning at work I discover that each of those messages "bounced" as undeliverable. Now I'm seeing messages I wrote to the list last week. Sigh. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 20:12:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA0C16A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:12:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF2E43D53 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:12:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050214201241i92004v9nje>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:12:42 +0000 Message-ID: <42110635.3080209@nbritton.org> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:12:37 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEC@mvaexch01.acuson.com> In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEC@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 2.3: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:12:43 -0000 Johnson David wrote: >From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > > > >>To advocate FreeBSD, you must explain why FreeBSD is preferable to other >>operating systems. It is not sufficient to say that there is no reason >>why someone _cannot_ put FreeBSD on the desktop. The latter response >>means that you'll be thanked for your time, and the Microsoft >>salesperson will be shown into the conference room. >> >> > >Whereupon the Microsoft salesman will proceed to make a sale for IIS and >Exchange on the server. > > How about someone makes a man page on how to sell *BSD??? man sellbsd From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 23:47:30 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C741816A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:47:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CC243D2F for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:47:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 41B8F1C00089 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:47:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id BE81D1C00084 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:47:28 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050214234728780.BE81D1C00084@mwinf1106.wanadoo.fr Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:47:27 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <515551513.20050215004727@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:47:31 -0000 Eric Kjeldergaard writes: > 1) Cost (in $$$): FreeBSD is free. Most of its third-party software, > also free. This is a big advantage to the many businesses that have > difficulty affording hundreds and often thousands of dollars per > machine in software. This I will grant unconditionally. Windows costs a fortune, and for companies of any size, it can cost as much or more to put Windows on the machine than it does for the hardware itself. There are a lot of companies pirating Windows, though. In some countries (the U.S. for example) this is only a minority of customers, in other countries it is essentially everyone. Often this takes the form of fudging on the number of licenses purchased vs. the number of seats actually installed. If a company can use pirated copies of Windows with impunity, the cost advantage of a truly free OS disappears. > 2) Security: FreeBSD has rather a notable track record for security. > I know of no examples in which an email client or web browser has been > able to execute arbitrary code, sometimes even outside of its > permissions level. Windows (possibly due in part to exposure) has a > deplorable track record. Patches come out often to fix known security > holes, but sometimes weeks or months after the hole has been found and > reported publicly. This is mostly due to exposure, as you note. There's nothing inherently more or less secure about Windows (at least in recent versions based on NT). Much of the exposure is the result of changes made by Microsoft to please the desktop market. If FreeBSD or other operating systems were to replace Windows, they'd develop the same exposure, because desktop users want features more than security (also true for corporate users in many cases, sadly). > 3) Stability: FreeBSD is possibly the most stable OS currently in > existence. For some people's desktops that does not matter. However, > there are mission-critical desktops in existence and sometimes > crashing is not allowed. Such as? ATMs come to mind, but not much else. A mission-critical desktop also implies a mission-critical human being behind it, which is quite rare (maybe a mission controller for a spacecraft, or something). > 4) Flexibility (especially mutliuser): This one is probably the most > important. When dealing with desktops, the ability to make it act > appropriately for the intended users is integral to its success or > failure as a desktop OS. Unfortunately, this favors Windows, not other operating systems. Corporate IT groups can force specific Windows environments on a network of thousands of machines much more easily than they can with any other operating system. They can force things to run on every machine when it is booted. They can prevent users from logging in as local administrators, and they can prevent the machine from giving users a chance to gain administrative access before or during the boot process. None of this is possible with FreeBSD or with any other OS, as far as I know. These features were market-driven. Many large customers _require_ these features today. The features you describe are merely cosmetic. What large organizations want is the ability to control what's on the desktop to a far greater degree. Windows actually allows this, or at least it does better at it than any other general-purpose desktop OS. > 5) Ease of development: A place where non-windows becomes > substantially more prevalent in the desktop market is the desks of > Software Engineers. It depends on which environments they are programming for. Typically software engineers run the OS that will run the software they write. In any case, they are such a tiny minority of the desktop population that they can be ignored. > Those of us that program for a living often choose Unix (or Unix-like) > because it has a powerful terminal, good (and free/OSS) versioning > software available, good (and in gcc's case free and OSS) compilers, > excellent editors (free, OSS), excellent documentation systems (man is > free and OSS, for instance), and wonderful debuggers (gdb...free, > OSS). It also is capable of running the same software that we are > running on our Unix servers so that we can work on applications that > work with them in an environment that simulates the server. It is also > remarkably stable during development. This makes debugging > substantially simpler. Unfortunately, this assumes that the engineer is writing software for UNIX. If he is writing for Windows (as most engineers are), he must run Windows. > Windows, however, is often not the environment on the server ... Most engineers are writing for the desktop. > 6) mutliusericity: (Yes, I know that's not a real word...) In > general, Windows does not handle multiple simultaneous users. This is > something that Unix was built around and thus is strong with. Very true. The NT code base does support multiple users, but the notion of a GUI is so entrenched in Windows that this support is practically invisible. UNIX, of course, was built as a timesharing system, and it handles multiple users effortlessly. Indeed, the average PC today could service thousands of simultaneous users under FreeBSD, if they used UNIX in the classic way (from a terminal or terminal emulator). It's a pity that this aspect of UNIX is so rarely used, although I've seen a few examples. A good example of UNIX used in a classic way is the Internet Chess Club (http://www.chessclub.com), which runs FreeBSD and supports thousands of simultaneous users via terminal interfaces (the client programs used by members of the club to play online chess are essentially dressed-up telnet clients). It would be extremely difficult to even get this to run under Windows, much less obtain any kind of performance. > The need to do this on a desktop is somewhat rare ... More than somewhat, particularly in small businesses and at home. Desktops by nature are single-user systems. Only one person uses the system at a time. Multiuser support isn't needed. UNIX handles this well, but the desktop scarcely uses it. Windows handles it poorly, but desktop users seldom need it. Serially multiple users aren't the same thing, and current versions of Windows handle that pretty well, anyway (although not nearly with the security of UNIX). True multiuser operation does exist on the desktop, but it's limited and invisible. For example, on corporate desktops, some services on a local machine may run under administrator accounts, whereas the current desktop user will be logged in under a normal user account. This prevents the local user from changing things on his own machine, which is exactly what corporate IT groups prefer. Of course, this can be done even more effectively with UNIX, but unfortunately it's not enough of a factor to influence desktop market penetration. > Windows has a major fault with multiple users and appropriate storage > of settings. Agreed. You can sign on as different users in Windows XP, but there's tremendous overlap between users; it's convenient but not very secure. This isn't the fault of the OS per se, but of the way applications (and some system programs) are written for the OS, without multiuser awareness. > Many applications (including M$ apps proper) do not > separately store settings in a user-by-user basis and instead toss > them into the centralised registry as a system setting. Yes. It's possible to use ACLs in the registry, but nobody does it (and it's a bit dangerous because it's easy to get very confused). > This is both a security nightmare and a frustration to the various > users. This situation simply doesn't come up in fBSD. If a user stores > a setting, it is stored (generally) in their home directory safe from > affecting other users. Yes. Of course, the user can simply choose to run as root when he boots the system, and then he can blast everything that corporate IT has set up. That can be prevented with Windows to a large extent. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 23:49:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5BD216A4CE for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:49:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F9143D31 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:49:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D200B1C00089 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:49:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id BAD461C00081 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:49:07 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050214234907765.BAD461C00081@mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:49:07 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <302293530.20050215004907@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEC@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEC@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 2.3: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:49:09 -0000 Johnson David writes: > Whereupon the Microsoft salesman will proceed to make a sale for IIS and > Exchange on the server. Unfortunately, that is exactly what happens. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 14 23:50:15 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A3F716A4CF for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:50:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8FB643D31 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:50:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1DF591C0009B for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:50:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0728C1C00099 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:50:13 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050214235014294.0728C1C00099@mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:50:13 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <268244209.20050215005013@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <42110635.3080209@nbritton.org> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEC@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <42110635.3080209@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 2.3: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:50:15 -0000 Nikolas Britton writes: > How about someone makes a man page on how to sell *BSD??? The people best suited to sell *BSD probably don't use it. Geeks are not good salespeople, usually. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 00:14:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0745816A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:14:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.192]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 621BE43D31 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:14:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so714057wra for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:14:55 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Db+eODLrv6at9BlYKQ+IstlIhuLhLUuWI6voSdpxBLS8cekwNKMj4k6/MEQranc6WcIa9KB944IJ5DNhcwEBTg+3AJw3mmUHWKV3seVZ8SOgnDY1tYmfIDdqENpygV1mUaVOR6jzjs8ZeHsN+nu189Fyap2v0HCgQ/oTSxkSjB0= Received: by 10.54.16.9 with SMTP id 9mr397937wrp; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:14:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e05021416142cfe2249@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:14:54 -0800 From: Astrodog To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <515551513.20050215004727@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <515551513.20050215004727@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:14:56 -0000 > This I will grant unconditionally. Windows costs a fortune, and for > companies of any size, it can cost as much or more to put Windows on the > machine than it does for the hardware itself. > > There are a lot of companies pirating Windows, though. In some > countries (the U.S. for example) this is only a minority of customers, > in other countries it is essentially everyone. Often this takes the > form of fudging on the number of licenses purchased vs. the number of > seats actually installed. > > If a company can use pirated copies of Windows with impunity, the cost > advantage of a truly free OS disappears. > > This is mostly due to exposure, as you note. There's nothing inherently > more or less secure about Windows (at least in recent versions based on > NT). > %60-some percent of webservers run Apache. More than 2 million of those run FreeBSD, (Almost as many as all of Linux combined) There's a bit more to it than exposure. > Much of the exposure is the result of changes made by Microsoft to > please the desktop market. If FreeBSD or other operating systems were > to replace Windows, they'd develop the same exposure, because desktop > users want features more than security (also true for corporate users in > many cases, sadly). > > > 3) Stability: FreeBSD is possibly the most stable OS currently in > > existence. For some people's desktops that does not matter. However, > > there are mission-critical desktops in existence and sometimes > > crashing is not allowed. > > Such as? ATMs come to mind, but not much else. A mission-critical > desktop also implies a mission-critical human being behind it, which is > quite rare (maybe a mission controller for a spacecraft, or something). > > > 4) Flexibility (especially mutliuser): This one is probably the most > > important. When dealing with desktops, the ability to make it act > > appropriately for the intended users is integral to its success or > > failure as a desktop OS. > > Unfortunately, this favors Windows, not other operating systems. > Corporate IT groups can force specific Windows environments on a network > of thousands of machines much more easily than they can with any other > operating system. They can force things to run on every machine when it > is booted. They can prevent users from logging in as local > administrators, and they can prevent the machine from giving users a > chance to gain administrative access before or during the boot process. > > None of this is possible with FreeBSD or with any other OS, as far as I > know. These features were market-driven. Many large customers _require_ > these features today. > NIS/NIS+/LDAP, can all do this quite well. Combined with NFS... hot damn, you have the same thing, except minus the whole overhead/multiuser issue below > The features you describe are merely cosmetic. What large organizations > want is the ability to control what's on the desktop to a far greater > degree. Windows actually allows this, or at least it does better at it > than any other general-purpose desktop OS. > > > 5) Ease of development: A place where non-windows becomes > > substantially more prevalent in the desktop market is the desks of > > Software Engineers. > > It depends on which environments they are programming for. Typically > software engineers run the OS that will run the software they write. Barring maybe VxWorks. > > In any case, they are such a tiny minority of the desktop population > that they can be ignored. > Definitly. > > Those of us that program for a living often choose Unix (or Unix-like) > > because it has a powerful terminal, good (and free/OSS) versioning > > software available, good (and in gcc's case free and OSS) compilers, > > excellent editors (free, OSS), excellent documentation systems (man is > > free and OSS, for instance), and wonderful debuggers (gdb...free, > > OSS). It also is capable of running the same software that we are > > running on our Unix servers so that we can work on applications that > > work with them in an environment that simulates the server. It is also > > remarkably stable during development. This makes debugging > > substantially simpler. > > Unfortunately, this assumes that the engineer is writing software for > UNIX. If he is writing for Windows (as most engineers are), he must run > Windows. > If he is following ANSI C, and keeps his code modular, for the most part, the OS its actually written on is irrelevent. > > Windows, however, is often not the environment on the server ... > > Most engineers are writing for the desktop. > > > 6) mutliusericity: (Yes, I know that's not a real word...) In > > general, Windows does not handle multiple simultaneous users. This is > > something that Unix was built around and thus is strong with. > > Very true. The NT code base does support multiple users, but the notion > of a GUI is so entrenched in Windows that this support is practically > invisible. > > UNIX, of course, was built as a timesharing system, and it handles > multiple users effortlessly. Indeed, the average PC today could service > thousands of simultaneous users under FreeBSD, if they used UNIX in the > classic way (from a terminal or terminal emulator). It's a pity that > this aspect of UNIX is so rarely used, although I've seen a few > examples. > > A good example of UNIX used in a classic way is the Internet Chess Club > (http://www.chessclub.com), which runs FreeBSD and supports thousands of > simultaneous users via terminal interfaces (the client programs used by > members of the club to play online chess are essentially dressed-up > telnet clients). It would be extremely difficult to even get this to > run under Windows, much less obtain any kind of performance. > > > The need to do this on a desktop is somewhat rare ... > > More than somewhat, particularly in small businesses and at home. > Desktops by nature are single-user systems. Only one person uses the > system at a time. Multiuser support isn't needed. UNIX handles this > well, but the desktop scarcely uses it. Windows handles it poorly, but > desktop users seldom need it. > > Serially multiple users aren't the same thing, and current versions of > Windows handle that pretty well, anyway (although not nearly with the > security of UNIX). > > True multiuser operation does exist on the desktop, but it's limited and > invisible. For example, on corporate desktops, some services on a local > machine may run under administrator accounts, whereas the current > desktop user will be logged in under a normal user account. This > prevents the local user from changing things on his own machine, which > is exactly what corporate IT groups prefer. > > Of course, this can be done even more effectively with UNIX, but > unfortunately it's not enough of a factor to influence desktop market > penetration. > > > Windows has a major fault with multiple users and appropriate storage > > of settings. > > Agreed. You can sign on as different users in Windows XP, but there's > tremendous overlap between users; it's convenient but not very secure. > This isn't the fault of the OS per se, but of the way applications (and > some system programs) are written for the OS, without multiuser > awareness. > > > Many applications (including M$ apps proper) do not > > separately store settings in a user-by-user basis and instead toss > > them into the centralised registry as a system setting. > > Yes. It's possible to use ACLs in the registry, but nobody does it (and > it's a bit dangerous because it's easy to get very confused). Yay for TrustedBSD. > > > This is both a security nightmare and a frustration to the various > > users. This situation simply doesn't come up in fBSD. If a user stores > > a setting, it is stored (generally) in their home directory safe from > > affecting other users. > > Yes. Of course, the user can simply choose to run as root when he boots > the system, and then he can blast everything that corporate IT has set > up. That can be prevented with Windows to a large extent. > Hrm. Every time I boot my system, it asks for a username, and password. If I don't know the root password.... I could boot it single user.... but even then, it STILL asks. > -- > Anthony > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 00:35:02 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A5516A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:35:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE4F43D3F for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:35:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2352) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0qfZ-0000wu-68 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:34:25 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HXP73T>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:35:10 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AF9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:35:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:35:02 -0000 From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > > ... snip ... You seem to be arguing that because FreeBSD on the desktop isn't suitable for everyone then it must be unsuitable for everyone. Get I get the gist of your argument correct? To correct any fears you may have, no one here is advocating that we spend any of your money or your time on desktop FreeBSD. No one is advocating making FreeBSD worse as a server in order to cater to the desktop. And no one is even advocating that we make it the top development priority. FreeBSD doesn't have to make an either-or choice between servers and clients. We can actually do both. This list is FreeBSD *advocacy*. There is no advocacy in telling people to use Windows or Mac OSX instead, especially when we're perfectly capable of meeting many people's desktop needs. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 00:48:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D780916A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:48:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C1143D39 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:48:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:4133) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0qsv-0003Yq-4c; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:48:13 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HXP7YV>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:48:57 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AFA@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'Astrodog' , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:48:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.6: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:48:50 -0000 From: Astrodog [mailto:astrodog@gmail.com] > > NIS/NIS+/LDAP, can all do this quite well. Combined with NFS... hot > damn, you have the same thing, except minus the whole > overhead/multiuser issue below Back when my division was a Solaris shop (even on the desktop) of 1200 employees, that's what we did. Five IT guys handled it all (client and server). But now that we're a Windows shop with only 900 employees, we need 20 MCSEs to keep everything running. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 00:57:13 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F91716A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:57:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E581343D2F for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:57:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 205001C0008C for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:57:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id ED59A1C0008A for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:57:11 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050215005711972.ED59A1C0008A@mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:57:11 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <7710244285.20050215015711@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <2fd864e05021416142cfe2249@mail.gmail.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AE6@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <2fd864e05021416142cfe2249@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:57:13 -0000 Astrodog writes: > %60-some percent of webservers run Apache. More than 2 million of > those run FreeBSD, (Almost as many as all of Linux combined) There's a > bit more to it than exposure. First, those numbers are far lower than the number of desktops exposed to the Net. And second, servers are much more tightly controlled than desktops, and are much less visible, and so they make less interesting targets for many kiddies. Even so, as I've said before, the one virus infection I've had was an infection of Apache on FreeBSD. > NIS/NIS+/LDAP, can all do this quite well. Combined with NFS... hot > damn, you have the same thing, except minus the whole > overhead/multiuser issue below From=20what little I know of NIS, it's quite different from SMS on Windows networks, and it has some serious security issues. > If he is following ANSI C, and keeps his code modular, for the most > part, the OS its actually written on is irrelevent. Yes, but hardly anyone writes real-world application systems in ANSI C. > Yay for TrustedBSD. FreeBSD 5.3 provides some limited support for ACLs as well, although I haven't the courage to be a pioneer and experiment with it (in any case, I don't need it on my server, and in serverland, if you don't need it, you don't install it). > Hrm. Every time I boot my system, it asks for a username, and > password. If I don't know the root password.... I could boot it single > user.... but even then, it STILL asks. I remember that there is a way around this, but I don't remember the specifics. On a Windows system, you never get this opportunity. At best, you can log on as a local user (if you have a local account), but then you have no access to Windows network resources. Once you log into a domain account, the SMS stuff will run, if present--you can't stop it. In the days when I had to deal with SMS, the only way we could prevent it from running was to use a hacked version of the OS. --=20 Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 01:00:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B2216A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:00:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web1.hostrack.com (web1.hostrack.com [204.10.137.116]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A8443D31 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:00:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stevei@black-star.net) Received: (qmail 26880 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2005 03:53:21 -0000 Received: from adsl-210-34-46.mco.bellsouth.net (HELO ?192.168.1.25?) (68.210.34.46) by il.hightechkids.org with SMTP; 11 Feb 2005 03:53:21 -0000 Message-ID: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:53:23 -0500 From: Steve Ireland User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: please, a little sanity about the logo X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:00:43 -0000 Hello, As a rule I don't post to mailing lists, especially about bike sheds, but I have seen a firestorm on this list and questions@ concerning the logo and most of them are vitriol or hysteria or vitriolic hysteria. First, I've been using, selling, and supporting FBSD since 2.2.2. In that time, I think I have become as fond of Beastie as anyone. While selling nearly a thousand installations (not systems), I have never encountered a problem over the logo, and I have put many a Beastie badge on a case. Changing a brand identifier is not something to be done on a whim. In the case of FBSD, which has a "community" rather than a corporate hierarchy, decisions like this need to be floated and allowed to settle before being finalized. This leads to the first question, should the logo be changed. Frankly, I don't know. Absent marketing studies, no way exists to know. Were studies done? If yes, will they be shared? If studies were not done, what methodology was used to determine the current logo is a hindrance to FBSD gaining market share? This leads to the second question, how pick the new one. Considering Beastie has been around since the beginning with no real objection until, apparently, recently, how do you (whomever "you" are) know the one you pick to replace it will be _better_ and not just different? This leads to a suggestion others have already made, a splitting of FBSD into hobbyist and professional branches. The hobbyists keep Beastie, the .org site, and the non-profit status. The professionals get the new logo, the .com site, and pay for use and support (perhaps an annual subscription?). Now, an issue not yet brought up. I believe the real problem with FBSD market share has more to do with its lack of visibilty in the market itself. Other than mentions so rare that links to them are posted on the website, I see almost no news concerning FBSD. Looking through advocacy@'s archive, I seen almost no pro-active posts. So let me make this into one. Here are my suggestions to improve FBSD market share, regardless of logo change: 0. Dedicated marketing department - The Foundation as it currently exists is clearly insufficient to meet FBSD's needs. You think Redhat or Suse don't have one? 1. Advertise - There are many ways to do this besides a full-page glossy in Sys Admin. For instance, ask people using FBSD for hosting to mention that fact in their own ads. If the example of yahoo.com didn't come up from time to time on the lists, who would know they use it? 2. Make it easier for the media, etc. to find an authorative source - How many times have people posted "How do I find a FBSD spokesman" on various lists (especially questions@) and been given inappropriate responses from random community members. In my opinion, that has done more harm than any logo ever will. 3. Performance matters - As much as I hate this issue, it is a real one. Look at CPU, RAM, and hard drive sizes. More is better. A common refrain is how well *nix does on slow systems compared to Windows (or, emphasizing its lack of performance, Windoze). 5.3 is observably slower and less stable than 4.11. Now I have to convince customers that the slower version is the better choice. I don't even try. I won't even mention 5.x until it is at least as good as 4.11. 4. Quality support for common hardware - Anyone using USB 2.0 without problems? Trouble free installation while using a USB keyboard? SATA raid controllers? (Please don't give the tired line, "Code it yourself if you want it." That's ANOTHER reason FBSD suffers in the marketplace.) To sum up, if changing the logo is being done for sound business reasons, based on sound business information, all well and good. If its being done to appease religious zealots (as seems to be the case), then FBSD will be a laughing-stock. All of the "printing" issues seems like an after-the-fact justification to me, especially considering that I not have ever seen any printed FBSD literature other than the few commercially available books. In either case, I doubt a logo change will have a beneficial impact given FBSD's other marketing shortcomings. For better or worse, Steve Ireland From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 01:39:50 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3E116A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:39:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D403143D58 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:39:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 20538 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2005 01:39:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by sarajevo with SMTP; 15 Feb 2005 01:39:47 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050215013946.JMGX1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:39:46 +0800 Message-ID: <42115362.2090807@pacific.net.sg> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:41:54 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Ireland References: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> In-Reply-To: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: please, a little sanity about the logo X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:39:50 -0000 Hi, it looks like your e-mail got delayed for some time. Steve Ireland wrote: > > As a rule I don't post to mailing lists, especially about bike sheds, > but I have seen a firestorm on this list and questions@ concerning the > logo and most of them are vitriol or hysteria or vitriolic hysteria. I have no idea how this could have been started. > This leads to the first question, should the logo be changed. I never have heard this question. > 0. Dedicated marketing department - The Foundation as it currently > exists is clearly insufficient to meet FBSD's needs. You think Redhat or > Suse don't have one? This is the main difference I mentioned some time ago. Linux has a corporate structure behind. It is this support FreeBSD lacks. A lot of activities are started with this but those activities do not have a target. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 01:45:59 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D860D16A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:45:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3767E43D39 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:45:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0912.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E8E901C005E8 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:45:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0912.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id B230C1C005E5 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:45:56 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050215014556729.B230C1C005E5@mwinf0912.wanadoo.fr Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:45:55 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <961491707.20050215024555@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AF9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AF9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:46:00 -0000 Johnson David writes: > You seem to be arguing that because FreeBSD on the desktop isn't > suitable for everyone then it must be unsuitable for everyone. Get I > get the gist of your argument correct? No, what I'm arguing is that FreeBSD should be promoted as a server, because that's what it does best. I'm beginning to understand the problem, though. It has occurred to me that most people using computers today have never seen any computers except PCs (and perhaps the occasional Mac). They assume that the entire world of IT is on the desktop. They also assume that any operating system that isn't ideal for the desktop is somehow not manly or sexy enough to warrant consideration. They don't realize that server and mainframe operating systems are much more difficult to write and must satisfy much more stringent criteria for reliability, stability, performance, and uptime. To them, any suggestion that an OS may not be suited to the desktop is tantamount to saying that the OS is worthless. Maybe this mindset needs to be changed. Most of the heavy-duty work in the world is done by servers and mainframes, not desktops. Most of the best operating systems in the world are mainframe and server operating systems, not desktop operating systems. And there's no shame in an operating system being better at server work than at desktop work; on the contrary, a good server operating system has considerably more prestige than a good desktop operating system ... at least in the eyes of IT professionals who have been around a while. Unfortuately, since so many people know and understand only desktops, they tend to equate non-desktop with non-existence, and so they get emotional when someone points out that their favorite OS may not be the ideal desktop OS. They are interested in UNIX, but only insofar as it runs on a desktop, since anything that doesn't run on a desktop is only half an operating system, in their eyes. In my case, I've used all different types of computers, not just PCs. The critical systems are the ones nobody sees: the serves and the mainframes. These are the systems that cost $100,000 a minute for every minute they are down. These are the systems that require the very best operating systems. You can run any piece of junk on a desktop. > To correct any fears you may have, no one here is advocating that we spend > any of your money or your time on desktop FreeBSD. No one is advocating > making FreeBSD worse as a server in order to cater to the desktop. And no > one is even advocating that we make it the top development priority. I hope so. I don't need a new desktop. I need a reliable server. I seem to have found one in FreeBSD, and I don't want to put that investment at risk. > FreeBSD doesn't have to make an either-or choice between servers and > clients. We can actually do both. You can do both if you are willing to sacrifice a little on each. "Jack of all trades, master of none." That's the Microsoft philosophy: try to push your OS as the solution to everything. But even they can't get the concept to work. Servers and clients are just too different. You need the right tool for the right job. > This list is FreeBSD *advocacy*. There is no advocacy in telling > people to use Windows or Mac OSX instead, especially when we're > perfectly capable of meeting many people's desktop needs. This is excellent evidence of the mindset I mentioned above. Why are people advocating FreeBSD on the desktop, but not on servers? FreeBSD shines on servers. It is not a substitute for Windows on the desktop. By constantly talking about FreeBSD on the desktop, you denigrate FreeBSD on servers, even though servers are what FreeBSD does best. And when potential users hear you talking about desktops all the time, they get the impression that they need not bother with FreeBSD their servers, because it's just another wannabe Windows, like Linux. People need to try to think out of the box, and that means recognizing that there's more to the world of computers than the machines on their desks. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 01:54:09 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC75416A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:54:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF1E43D31 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:54:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20050215015404i9100k4mhme>; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:54:04 +0000 Message-ID: <42115637.6080307@nbritton.org> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:53:59 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEC@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <42110635.3080209@nbritton.org> <268244209.20050215005013@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <268244209.20050215005013@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 2.3: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:54:09 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: >Nikolas Britton writes: > > > >>How about someone makes a man page on how to sell *BSD??? >> >> > >The people best suited to sell *BSD probably don't use it. Geeks are >not good salespeople, usually. > > > Been there, done that, and it didn't work... If you need a salesman I'm not the guy to ask, and thats why I asked. Also how come we have a man page for man but none for woman, all I get is "No manual entry for woman"? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 02:07:28 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BA916A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:07:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mailbox.netcommplete.com.au (mail.cwcc.nsw.edu.au [203.41.55.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB5BE43D39 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:07:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from smuller@netcommplete.com.au) Received: from localhost (localhost.netcommplete.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by mailbox.netcommplete.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B077D114A3 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:06:43 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailbox.netcommplete.com.au ([127.0.0.1])port 10024) with LMTP id 65744-01-5 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:06:43 +1100 (EST) Received: from bashhead (bash-head.netcommplete.lan [192.168.100.114]) by mailbox.netcommplete.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD09A11495 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:06:42 +1100 (EST) From: "Scott Muller" To: Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:06:37 +1100 Organization: NetCommplete Pty Ltd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <42115637.6080307@nbritton.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Thread-Index: AcUTAYBmk8+jwYYVSFCCM4RM8peRKAAAV5DA Message-Id: <20050215020642.DD09A11495@mailbox.netcommplete.com.au> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new_maia at netcommplete.com.au Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.3: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:07:28 -0000 > Been there, done that, and it didn't work... If you need a > salesman I'm > not the guy to ask, and thats why I asked. Also how come we > have a man > page for man but none for woman, all I get is "No manual > entry for woman"? What man could ever understand a woman well enough to put it in writing ??!!!! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 02:13:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C910716A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:13:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.183]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 728D843D48 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:13:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.27.163 with login) by smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Feb 2005 02:13:04 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:13:02 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AF9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <961491707.20050215024555@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <961491707.20050215024555@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502141813.03288.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:13:05 -0000 On Monday 14 February 2005 05:45 pm, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Johnson David writes: > > This list is FreeBSD *advocacy*. There is no advocacy in telling > > people to use Windows or Mac OSX instead, especially when we're > > perfectly capable of meeting many people's desktop needs. > > This is excellent evidence of the mindset I mentioned above. Why are > people advocating FreeBSD on the desktop, but not on servers? > FreeBSD shines on servers. It is not a substitute for Windows on the > desktop. I never completely switched my desktop from Windows to *nix until I started using FreeBSD. I don't expect most people to do this, however. I work on Windows machines for clients, and if people ask me what I run I'll tell them, but I don't advise they use it unless they're really curious. Even then, I tell them that if they don't have any experience with *nix they'd probably be happier with something else, like Mandrake. I do know former non-technical Windows users who are using KDE on *nix systems who are perfectly happy with it, and who find it easier to deal with than Windows. It depends on what you want to do. For people who are sick of spyware and viruses, but who are terrified of technical stuff, I usually recommend they get a Mac. > By constantly talking about FreeBSD on the desktop, you denigrate > FreeBSD on servers, even though servers are what FreeBSD does best. > And when potential users hear you talking about desktops all the > time, they get the impression that they need not bother with FreeBSD > their servers, because it's just another wannabe Windows, like Linux. OK, but I use FreeBSD on my desktop. Why? Because it does everything *I* need, and I prefer running it to any other OS on my machine at home. I have a separate drive for Windows, which only gets booted for games. That's one thing I don't really expect open source to do well, as modern games take a lot of money and years to make, requiring a focused team devoting all their time to it - this is where commercial development is ideal. I also have a separate partition for Slackware, which gets booted occasionally, but not so much for work. OTOH, I haven't heard a lot of advocacy for FreeBSD on the desktop. Most of the benchmarking and improvements are dealing with issues that benefit FreeBSD as a server. That's fine with me, as it does what I want already on the desktop (and as a server), but I like seeing improvments concentrated on the server side. Xorg/XFree86 and window managers will still be in ports. - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 02:30:42 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8930816A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:30:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5EEB743D4C for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:30:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 1510 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2005 02:30:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 15 Feb 2005 02:30:33 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.124.198]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050215023033.GDJF1207.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]> for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:30:33 +0800 Message-ID: <42115F49.70908@pacific.net.sg> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:32:41 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AF9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <961491707.20050215024555@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <961491707.20050215024555@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:30:42 -0000 Hi, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Johnson David writes: > > >>You seem to be arguing that because FreeBSD on the desktop isn't >>suitable for everyone then it must be unsuitable for everyone. Get I >>get the gist of your argument correct? > > > No, what I'm arguing is that FreeBSD should be promoted as a server, > because that's what it does best. > I do not understand why it has to be promoted like this at all. FreeBSD itself ist just a plain operating system. All the programs needed to make it a server or a desktop are in the ports. As long as the programs needed for a certain purpose are in the ports, FreeBSD is the choice. The moment the programs are not available in the ports, do not use FreeBSD. > Maybe this mindset needs to be changed. Most of the heavy-duty work in This is so true. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 02:48:24 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FCE116A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:48:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A6043D1D for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:48:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:3385) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D0skd-0006Fz-5g for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:47:47 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <17HXP0ZJ>; Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:48:31 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AFF@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:48:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:48:24 -0000 From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > > I'm beginning to understand the problem, though. It has occurred to me > that most people using computers today have never seen any computers > except PCs (and perhaps the occasional Mac). They assume that the > entire world of IT is on the desktop. They also assume that any > operating system that isn't ideal for the desktop is somehow not manly > or sexy enough to warrant consideration. They don't realize that server > and mainframe operating systems are much more difficult to write and > must satisfy much more stringent criteria for reliability, stability, > performance, and uptime. To them, any suggestion that an OS may not be > suited to the desktop is tantamount to saying that the OS is worthless. Except for Sun "enterprise servers" and Apple's offerings, every server I have seen has been a PC. I guess that makes me part of the unwashed masses. When I go to FreeBSDsystems.com and other similar sites, I see that everything they sell is a PC. That 1U is a PC. That 4U is a PC. That tower is a PC. They may not be client PCs, but PCs they are. Let's take a look at one, the iNET860. It has an identical CPU to the one in my home desktop system. Identical RAM type. Same SATA drives, but in a RAID configuration. It has an Intel Pro/1000 while I have an Intel Pro/100 at home. The mobo chipset is different, but not substantially. The available ports are substantially the same. Oh, here's a difference: No audio or video cards! The point is, while the iNET860 is optimized for a server, the basic architecture is still that of a PC. I could very well slap in a PCI video card and run FreeBSD, Linux or WindowsXP from it! Servers and clients have converged. The differences between the two are not in architecture, power or flexibility, but in optimization. One has RAID while the other had 3D video. One might have four- or eight-way SMP, while the other usually maxes out at dual CPUs. One tends to use more reliable (and expensive) components than the other. Etc, etc. To make a long story short, If I can have the same hardware on the desktop as I do the server, why can't I have the same software as well? > Maybe this mindset needs to be changed. Most of the heavy-duty work in > the world is done by servers and mainframes, not desktops. Most of the > best operating systems in the world are mainframe and server operating > systems, not desktop operating systems. And there's no shame in an > operating system being better at server work than at desktop work; on > the contrary, a good server operating system has considerably more > prestige than a good desktop operating system ... at least in the eyes > of IT professionals who have been around a while. The mindset that needs to change is that we need to keep around an artificial distinction between clients and servers. UNIX moved people away from mainframes to minis. And then it moved them away from minis to micros. At the same time, micros were getting more and more powerful. We have reached there is little difference between the server and the client. > Unfortuately, since so many people know and understand only desktops, > they tend to equate non-desktop with non-existence, and so they get > emotional when someone points out that their favorite OS may not be the > ideal desktop OS. They are interested in UNIX, but only insofar as it > runs on a desktop, since anything that doesn't run on a desktop is only > half an operating system, in their eyes. You're starting to get a bit insulting here. I am in no way suggesting that FreeBSD be taken off the server, so stop acting like that's what I said. Putting FreeBSD on the desktop IN NO WAY affects it on the server. > You can run any piece of junk on a desktop. But what if we don't run to run junk on the desktop? > You can do both if you are willing to sacrifice a little on each. "Jack > of all trades, master of none." That's the Microsoft philosophy: try to > push your OS as the solution to everything. But even they can't get the > concept to work. Servers and clients are just too different. You need > the right tool for the right job. What is there to sacrifice? No one has explained this yet to me. Is ULE somehow inappropriate for the desktop (while Windows' scheduler is)? Does the system break if I choose not to install apache or sendmail? I realize that I could certainly tune FreeBSD for one or the other, but I fail to understand why tuning it one way prevents you from tuning it the other. > This is excellent evidence of the mindset I mentioned above. Why are > people advocating FreeBSD on the desktop, but not on servers? FreeBSD > shines on servers. It is not a substitute for Windows on the desktop. Because I don't have a freaking server! I want to use FreeBSD because that is what I want to use! If I wanted to Windows or OSX or Linux, I would be using Windows or OSX or Linux instead. FreeBSD is perfectly capable of being a desktop system, so why shouldn't I be allowed to use it as such? What is so wrong about doing this? Why can't I come home in the evening to find something other than the crappy Windows I've been using at work? You can have my FreeBSD desktop when you pry it out of my cold dead hands! -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 03:04:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6974F16A4CE; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 03:04:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fw.farid-hajji.net (fw.farid-hajji.net [213.146.115.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A31543D5C; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 03:04:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpghost@cordula.ws) Received: from fw.farid-hajji.net (net4801-2 [192.168.254.1]) by fw.farid-hajji.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43FC14AEF5; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:00:15 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:00:14 +0100 From: cpghost@cordula.ws To: Steve Ireland Message-ID: <20050215030014.GA53931@fw.farid-hajji.net> References: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: please, a little sanity about the logo X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 03:04:23 -0000 On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 10:53:23PM -0500, Steve Ireland wrote: > This leads to a suggestion others have already made, a splitting > of FBSD into hobbyist and professional branches. The hobbyists > keep Beastie, the .org site, and the non-profit status. The > professionals get the new logo, the .com site, and pay for use > and support (perhaps an annual subscription?). Quite frankly, I don't understand the current push for a "commercial-friendly" logo on behalf of the FreeBSD Project. There have always been a few companies that provided a commercial version on CDs, and nobody would have any objections that these companies use their own logos to push their own version (or an unmodified version) of FreeBSD into the enterprise. This is similar to SuSE, RedHat and others who use their own logos to distribute the one and only Linux kernel and an assorted set of libraries and utilities. "Linux" itself doesn't have a logo either (if we followed the party line that Tux and Beastie were mascots and not logos). The FreeBSD Project should IMHO remain vendor neutral, and stick to code development. There's absolutely no need to commercialize anything; much less need for any kind of logo. The project did very well without a logo (and with Beastie), and there's no reason to have one now, just to appease those zealots (as you've pointed out). Just leave this to the vendors. > Steve Ireland Cheers, -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 05:50:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9631416A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:50:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5292043D2D for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:50:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7F82B1C00092 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:50:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 5C56D1C00083 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:50:32 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050215055032378.5C56D1C00083@mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:50:32 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <519034593.20050215065032@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <42115637.6080307@nbritton.org> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEC@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <42110635.3080209@nbritton.org> <268244209.20050215005013@wanadoo.fr> <42115637.6080307@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 2.3: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:50:33 -0000 Nikolas Britton writes: > Also how come we have a man page for man but none > for woman, all I get is "No manual entry for woman"? Because man is a command, whereas woman is not. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 05:52:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B21D16A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:52:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4176743D58 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:52:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 6F7EA1C00098 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:52:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 5389A1C0008F for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:52:02 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050215055202342.5389A1C0008F@mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:52:02 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <401267700.20050215065202@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <42115F49.70908@pacific.net.sg> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AF9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <961491707.20050215024555@wanadoo.fr> <42115F49.70908@pacific.net.sg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:52:03 -0000 Erich Dollansky writes: > I do not understand why it has to be promoted like this at all. It doesn't _have_ to be, but advocacy is all about promotion. > FreeBSD itself ist just a plain operating system. Every operating system has its strengths and weaknesses. > As long as the programs needed for a certain purpose are in the ports, > FreeBSD is the choice. Hardly. It might be possible to get MVS to run on a PDA, but that doesn't mean that MVS is the choice for a PDA operating system. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 06:06:28 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 659A716A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:06:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB96C43D46 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:06:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0909.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 86EE1240010B for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:06:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0909.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4AFB02400108 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:06:26 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050215060626307.4AFB02400108@mwinf0909.wanadoo.fr Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:06:26 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1883005470.20050215070626@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AFF@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AFF@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:06:28 -0000 Johnson David writes: > Except for Sun "enterprise servers" and Apple's offerings, every server I > have seen has been a PC. I guess that makes me part of the unwashed masses. It just means that your experience is recent. PC hardware is cheap and plentiful, and it is powerful enough for servers, so it is often used in that capacity. It's not ideal hardware for a server, but today's PCs have enough horsepower to fulfill this role, and they are very inexpensive. In the past, servers were likely to be proprietary hardware. > When I go to FreeBSDsystems.com and other similar sites, I see that > everything they sell is a PC. That 1U is a PC. That 4U is a PC. That tower > is a PC. They may not be client PCs, but PCs they are. The operating system and the environment make all the difference. ATMs are usually PCs, but that doesn't mean that understanding PCs is equivalent to understanding ATMs. > Servers and clients have converged. No, they are just as different as they have always been. You have to look beyond mere hardware. There are differences in operating systems, applications, use patterns, constraints, and environment. > To make a long story short, If I can have the same hardware on the > desktop as I do the server, why can't I have the same software as > well? You can, if you want to convert your desktop into a server, or convert your server into a desktop. But for a server role, you must run server software, and for a desktop role, you must run desktop software. Occasionally there are hardware constraints, too. > The mindset that needs to change is that we need to keep around an > artificial distinction between clients and servers. The distinction is not artificial; it's a critical and real distinction that many people today just don't understand. I've worked on all these types of systems, and their differences are as clear as black and white to me. > UNIX moved people away from mainframes to minis. No, it filled in a gap between the two. Mainframes are still in use. > And then it moved them away from minis to micros. No, minicomputers are still in use. > At the same time, micros were getting more and more powerful. We have > reached there is little difference between the server and the client. The difference is just as large now as it has always been. > You're starting to get a bit insulting here. It's difficult to describe the problem without at least adumbrating the ignorance of recent generations of so-called IT professionals. They are so clueless in so many domains that it's scary sometimes. > I am in no way suggesting that FreeBSD be taken off the server, > so stop acting like that's what I said. I didn't mention you at all. > But what if we don't run to run junk on the desktop? Then you run something better. That's when you spring for Windows 200x instead of a dusty old copy of Windows 98. > What is there to sacrifice? Many of the requirements of servers and clients are in direct conflict. Desktops require a GUI, but GUI just gets in the way on a server. Desktops must be inexpensive, but the reliability requirements of servers cost money. Desktops must be user-friendly, but servers must be secure. And so on. > I realize that I could certainly tune FreeBSD for one or the other, > but I fail to understand why tuning it one way prevents you from > tuning it the other. Some things are consequences of the fundamental design of an OS, and cannot be changed through tuning. > Because I don't have a freaking server! The fact that you don't have a server doesn't mean that FreeBSD should be promoted on the desktop in preference to its server role. > I want to use FreeBSD because that is what I want to use! Great, but not a very persuasive argument if you are trying to encourage others to use it. > FreeBSD is perfectly capable of being a desktop system, so why > shouldn't I be allowed to use it as such? You're _allowed_ to use anything. > What is so wrong about doing this? Nothing. > Why can't I come home in the evening to find something other than the > crappy Windows I've been using at work? You can. > You can have my FreeBSD desktop when you pry it out of my cold dead > hands! I can see that this is a strongly emotional issue for you. Unfortunately, that's a handicap when you are trying to advocate a system to unemotional third parties. Your last few statements above would cause you to be written off immediately if you were presenting FreeBSD to a committee of corporate IT managers, for example. They aren't interested in your deep love for FreeBSD; they are only interested in cogent and objective arguments that explain why they should adopt it. You cannot advocate with emotion. I've seen lots of geeks crash and burn this way while trying to negotiate with other people who see computers only as tools. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 07:37:12 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9101816A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:37:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323AC43D3F for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:37:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050215073711i92004urtme>; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:37:11 +0000 Message-ID: <4211A6A2.3030808@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:37:06 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEC@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <42110635.3080209@nbritton.org> <268244209.20050215005013@wanadoo.fr> <42115637.6080307@nbritton.org> <519034593.20050215065032@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <519034593.20050215065032@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: OT jokes (was Re: SPAM: Score 2.3: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not...) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:37:12 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: >Nikolas Britton writes: > > > >>Also how come we have a man page for man but none >>for woman, all I get is "No manual entry for woman"? >> >> > >Because man is a command, whereas woman is not. > > > It was a joke, here's two more. > whatis woman woman: nothing appropriate > fsck /dev/woman fsck: cannot open `/dev/woman' From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 07:41:54 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9AAB16A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:41:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CF6AB43D48 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:41:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:41:06 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20050215030014.GA53931@fw.farid-hajji.net> References: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> <20050215030014.GA53931@fw.farid-hajji.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:41:48 +0100 To: cpghost@cordula.ws X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: please, a little sanity about the logo X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:41:54 -0000 On Feb 15, 2005, at 4:00 AM, cpghost@cordula.ws wrote: > On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 10:53:23PM -0500, Steve Ireland wrote: >> This leads to a suggestion others have already made, a splitting >> of FBSD into hobbyist and professional branches. The hobbyists >> keep Beastie, the .org site, and the non-profit status. The >> professionals get the new logo, the .com site, and pay for use >> and support (perhaps an annual subscription?). > > Quite frankly, I don't understand the current push for > a "commercial-friendly" logo on behalf of the FreeBSD Project. > > There have always been a few companies that provided > a commercial version on CDs, and nobody would have any > objections that these companies use their own logos to > push their own version (or an unmodified version) of > FreeBSD into the enterprise. > > This is similar to SuSE, RedHat and others who use their own > logos to distribute the one and only Linux kernel and > an assorted set of libraries and utilities. "Linux" itself > doesn't have a logo either (if we followed the party line > that Tux and Beastie were mascots and not logos). > > The FreeBSD Project should IMHO remain vendor neutral, > and stick to code development. There's absolutely no need > to commercialize anything; much less need for any kind of > logo. The project did very well without a logo (and with > Beastie), and there's no reason to have one now, just to > appease those zealots (as you've pointed out). Just leave > this to the vendors. I hope it doesn't surprise you (or anybody else) that I agree with you 100%. Those that do not agree should read it again, and again, and again, until they do. The reason why I'm doing the website/logo design work anyway is because it needs an update/refresh. We don't want that people that get information about FreeBSD for the first time get an initial impression that this project has been abandoned sometime late in the nineteen hundreds. It's maintenance in order to keep what we already have (or get back what we already had back then). /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 10:23:24 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEA016A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:23:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2FAF43D2F for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:23:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20050215102322i9100k4j6ie>; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:23:23 +0000 Message-ID: <4211CD96.9000200@nbritton.org> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:23:18 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AFF@mvaexch01.acuson.com> In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AFF@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:23:24 -0000 Johnson David wrote: > >Except for Sun "enterprise servers" and Apple's offerings, every server I >have seen has been a PC. I guess that makes me part of the unwashed masses. >When I go to FreeBSDsystems.com and other similar sites, I see that >everything they sell is a PC. That 1U is a PC. That 4U is a PC. That tower >is a PC. They may not be client PCs, but PCs they are. > >Let's take a look at one, the iNET860. It has an identical CPU to the one in >my home desktop system. Identical RAM type. Same SATA drives, but in a RAID >configuration. It has an Intel Pro/1000 while I have an Intel Pro/100 at >home. The mobo chipset is different, but not substantially. The available >ports are substantially the same. Oh, here's a difference: No audio or video >cards! The point is, while the iNET860 is optimized for a server, the basic >architecture is still that of a PC. I could very well slap in a PCI video >card and run FreeBSD, Linux or WindowsXP from it! > >Servers and clients have converged. The differences between the two are not >in architecture, power or flexibility, but in optimization. One has RAID >while the other had 3D video. One might have four- or eight-way SMP, while >the other usually maxes out at dual CPUs. One tends to use more reliable >(and expensive) components than the other. Etc, etc. > >To make a long story short, If I can have the same hardware on the desktop >as I do the server, why can't I have the same software as well? > Desktop x86 and Server x86 are different beasts with a common mother... Desktop x86: cheap hardware and you know the rest... Server x86: Quality High end Hardware. Different MCH and ICHs. ECC RAM standard. 16-64(+?)GB RAM, also things like quad-channel, hotswap, mirroring, interleaved mem i/o buses, etc. Hotswap SCSI and SATA standard. Hotswap power supplies. Other fault tolerant systems. RAID Standard, more exotic RAID levels. BIOS optimizations; console redirection, advanced hardware monitoring, etc. Different CPUs; Xeon, Itanium, Optatron, etc. Larger L2 and L3 caches. n-way SMP standard. PCI-X (hotswap) standard, also other exotic interconnects and buses such as InfiniBand, Fibre channel, etc. Different chassises, form factors, backplanes, riser cards, blades, etc. Different NIC options; 10Gbit, multiple ports, multiplexed ports, fiber optics, fault tolerant, etc. Etc. etc. The only thing these two systems really have in common is they both use the x86 instruction set. The only real difference between an x86 server and say for example a Sun Sparc server or Power Server of the same caliber is they use different CPUs. Also It would be stupid to plunk down 20-50 grand for servers of this caliber and use it as your desktop pc. ;-) but do agree with you that entry-level x86 servers and high-end x86 workstations are more or less the same beast as 86x desktop PCs. These days there's (mostly) no reason to stray way from commodity off the shelf hardware platforms (mainly x86, but also Power etc.) because of the advent of cost effective cluster computing*, proprietary super computers, mainframes, and mini's do still have a few niches left but I think I'm preaching to the choir so I'll shut up now. * http://www.tcf.vt.edu/systemX.html Personally I feel that FreeBSD is no better or worst then Linux (or any *nix) on the desktop because once you have X and your desktop environment running everything else is transparent to the user (joe blow user, not joe blow computer geek). If BSD wants to get in and onto the desktop (like Linux is trying to do) then it needs to focus on things like laptops (APCI, PC Card/PCMCIA bus etc.), USB sound, networking, and other multimedia devices, better multimedia support (TV cards, DV stuff, Sound cards), better (more) wifi devices and other common desktop stuff like printers, scanners, etc. As far as the software goes it needs to focus on preemption, better/tuned scheduler for desktop related tasks, general tunning of the system for desktop tasks, and a more user friendly installer. changing the direction of FreeBSD from a server OS to a desktop OS is most likely never going to happen but I see a two ways one could do this: Create a subproject disto ("lite fork") of FreeBSD that is tuned for the desktop and has the needed hardware support, sort of like the old BSD patch sets. Or completely fork the project into something like "DesktopBSD". Also a good thing to do is pool all the resources of all the BSDs into creating a co-opt common DesktopBSD OS. Is also could be a commercial project/product. The easiest way to get a BSD targeted for the desktop is through Apple. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 13:49:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422CF16A4E7 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:49:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bloodwood.hunterlink.net.au (smtp-local.hunterlink.net.au [203.12.144.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3EA143D49 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:49:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from boris@brooknet.com.au) Received: from ppp234E.dyn.pacific.net.au (ppp234E.dyn.pacific.net.au [61.8.35.78])j1FDniag010114 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:49:47 +1100 From: Sam Lawrance To: advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:50:48 +1100 Message-Id: <1108475448.4009.16.camel@dirk.no.domain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.1FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Getting university design students involved in the logo contest X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:49:52 -0000 Hi, One of the things I see around my university occasionally are posters for logo design competitions; usually stuck up around wherever the design students hang out. I think this is a valuable resource to draw on. When the time comes, it would be great if someone could put together: - A bit of a design brief aimed at people who have no idea what FreeBSD is. Explain what it is, what is needed, the current situation, prize etc. Stick this up on the web somewhere. - Some poster pages outlining the competition and pointing to the web for further information I'd be happy to run these off and put them up around my uni. I'm sure there are others willing to do the same. Cheers, Sam Please CC me on replies. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 15:00:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C69D16A4CF for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:00:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 701B043D48 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:00:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1FF06c7053689; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:00:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <42120E70.3040007@401.cx> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:00:00 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cpghost@cordula.ws References: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> <20050215030014.GA53931@fw.farid-hajji.net> In-Reply-To: <20050215030014.GA53931@fw.farid-hajji.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Steve Ireland Subject: Re: please, a little sanity about the logo X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:00:18 -0000 cpghost@cordula.ws wrote: > On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 10:53:23PM -0500, Steve Ireland wrote: > >>This leads to a suggestion others have already made, a splitting >>of FBSD into hobbyist and professional branches. The hobbyists >>keep Beastie, the .org site, and the non-profit status. The >>professionals get the new logo, the .com site, and pay for use >>and support (perhaps an annual subscription?). > > Quite frankly, I don't understand the current push for > a "commercial-friendly" logo on behalf of the FreeBSD Project. Thats obvious. If you did understand it, we would not have this discussion. > There have always been a few companies that provided > a commercial version on CDs, and nobody would have any > objections that these companies use their own logos to > push their own version (or an unmodified version) of > FreeBSD into the enterprise. This is true, but to me, this solution feels like inventing the wheel several times. We have a perfectly capable os without a logo. Instead of creating a logo for it, you suggest we fork the perfect os into another perfect os and create a logo for that. I do not understand your logic. > This is similar to SuSE, RedHat and others who use their own > logos to distribute the one and only Linux kernel and > an assorted set of libraries and utilities. "Linux" itself > doesn't have a logo either (if we followed the party line > that Tux and Beastie were mascots and not logos). Thats because nobody runs Linux. They run RedHat, SuSe, Debian etc. Linux is a kernel, FreeBSD is an OS. There is a big difference. Your logic here implies that the suggestion would be to create a logo for the FreeBSD *kernel*, and that has afaik never even been brought up. > The FreeBSD Project should IMHO remain vendor neutral, > and stick to code development. Absolutely. No argument here, and so far I have not heard anyone else, pro or con image change, argue otherwise. > There's absolutely no need > to commercialize anything; much less need for any kind of > logo. Now here I have to strongly disagree. See why below. > The project did very well without a logo (and with > Beastie), and there's no reason to have one now, just to > appease those zealots (as you've pointed out). Just leave > this to the vendors. If something does "very well", and a small change would make it do even better without sacrificing anything, would that be bad? If it was only to appease some zealot, I would be strongly against it as well. However, I struggle daily to push freebsd into corporate environments, so I *know* that our totally un-professional image actually keeps us back, bigtime! As pointed out earlier, FreeBSD runs on more edge webservers then most of the linux distros combined, and still hardly anyone outside the community of hardcore geeks knows what BSD is. Just that sentence alone should get people to realize that maybe we are missing something here! -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 16:49:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03C116A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:49:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5B543D2D for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:49:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1BB621C0008E for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:49:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E51101C000B6 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:49:41 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050215164941938.E51101C000B6@mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:49:41 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <802915606.20050215174941@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4211CD96.9000200@nbritton.org> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AFF@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <4211CD96.9000200@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:49:43 -0000 Nikolas Britton writes: > Create a subproject disto ("lite fork") of FreeBSD that is tuned for the > desktop and has the needed hardware support, sort of like the old BSD > patch sets. Or completely fork the project into something like > "DesktopBSD". Also a good thing to do is pool all the resources of all > the BSDs into creating a co-opt common DesktopBSD OS. Is also could be a > commercial project/product. I think the project (if it were ever undertaken) should be completely and permanently separated from the current server-oriented FreeBSD. If people want to make a mess modifying the OS for desktop use, let them do it in their own sandbox, and leave the current FreeBSD alone. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 18:35:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4EFA16A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:35:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C55443D2F for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:35:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:1951) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D16Xa-0002K5-46 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:31:14 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:28:06 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AF9@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:35:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:35:36 -0000 From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > > ... snip ... You seem to be arguing that because FreeBSD on the desktop isn't suitable for everyone then it must be unsuitable for everyone. Get I get the gist of your argument correct? To correct any fears you may have, no one here is advocating that we spend any of your money or your time on desktop FreeBSD. No one is advocating making FreeBSD worse as a server in order to cater to the desktop. And no one is even advocating that we make it the top development priority. FreeBSD doesn't have to make an either-or choice between servers and clients. We can actually do both. This list is FreeBSD *advocacy*. There is no advocacy in telling people to use Windows or Mac OSX instead, especially when we're perfectly capable of meeting many people's desktop needs. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 18:44:39 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCEED16A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:44:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fw.farid-hajji.net (fw.farid-hajji.net [213.146.115.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B9AA43D2F for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:44:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpghost@cordula.ws) Received: from fw.farid-hajji.net (net4801-2 [192.168.254.1]) by fw.farid-hajji.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC604B9CA; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:40:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:40:37 +0100 From: cpghost@cordula.ws To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg Message-ID: <20050215184037.GB58593@fw.farid-hajji.net> References: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> <20050215030014.GA53931@fw.farid-hajji.net> <42120E70.3040007@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42120E70.3040007@401.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: cpghost@cordula.ws cc: Steve Ireland Subject: Re: please, a little sanity about the logo X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:44:39 -0000 On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 04:00:00PM +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >This is similar to SuSE, RedHat and others who use their own > >logos to distribute the one and only Linux kernel and > >an assorted set of libraries and utilities. "Linux" itself > >doesn't have a logo either (if we followed the party line > >that Tux and Beastie were mascots and not logos). > > Thats because nobody runs Linux. They run RedHat, SuSe, Debian > etc. Linux is a kernel, FreeBSD is an OS. There is a big difference. > Your logic here implies that the suggestion would be to create a > logo for the FreeBSD *kernel*, and that has afaik never even been > brought up. No, this is not a Kernel vs. OS argument. It's about the difference between the developers (kernel + userland in Linuxland, or the whole FreeBSD OS in our case), and the vendors. The developers do what they can do best: writing and testing excellent code. The vendors package that stuff in neat boxes, print advertizing and send out people to convince the "suits" to buy their packed product. Vendors are excellent at designing logos, and at marketing (at least they should be!), while developers excel at coding. That's my point, not that silly Kernel+Userland vs Whole OS comparison. > >The FreeBSD Project should IMHO remain vendor neutral, > >and stick to code development. > > Absolutely. No argument here, and so far I have not heard anyone > else, pro or con image change, argue otherwise. This is exactly the point here. By calling for a logo competition, the Project is mutating into a vendor. If that is really the idea, a lot of problems could ensue, e.g. for the Foundation's non-profit status etc... Talking about this is perhaps much more important that a puny fight over logos, Beastie, or whatever. > As pointed out earlier, FreeBSD runs on more edge webservers then > most of the linux distros combined, and still hardly anyone > outside the community of hardcore geeks knows what BSD is. Just > that sentence alone should get people to realize that maybe we > are missing something here! You're absolutely right here! Cheers, -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 18:48:20 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B322816A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:48:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E3243D48 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:48:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:1969) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D16Wy-0002KH-6E for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:30:36 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:28:10 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AFF@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:48:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:48:20 -0000 From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > > I'm beginning to understand the problem, though. It has occurred to me > that most people using computers today have never seen any computers > except PCs (and perhaps the occasional Mac). They assume that the > entire world of IT is on the desktop. They also assume that any > operating system that isn't ideal for the desktop is somehow not manly > or sexy enough to warrant consideration. They don't realize that server > and mainframe operating systems are much more difficult to write and > must satisfy much more stringent criteria for reliability, stability, > performance, and uptime. To them, any suggestion that an OS may not be > suited to the desktop is tantamount to saying that the OS is worthless. Except for Sun "enterprise servers" and Apple's offerings, every server I have seen has been a PC. I guess that makes me part of the unwashed masses. When I go to FreeBSDsystems.com and other similar sites, I see that everything they sell is a PC. That 1U is a PC. That 4U is a PC. That tower is a PC. They may not be client PCs, but PCs they are. Let's take a look at one, the iNET860. It has an identical CPU to the one in my home desktop system. Identical RAM type. Same SATA drives, but in a RAID configuration. It has an Intel Pro/1000 while I have an Intel Pro/100 at home. The mobo chipset is different, but not substantially. The available ports are substantially the same. Oh, here's a difference: No audio or video cards! The point is, while the iNET860 is optimized for a server, the basic architecture is still that of a PC. I could very well slap in a PCI video card and run FreeBSD, Linux or WindowsXP from it! Servers and clients have converged. The differences between the two are not in architecture, power or flexibility, but in optimization. One has RAID while the other had 3D video. One might have four- or eight-way SMP, while the other usually maxes out at dual CPUs. One tends to use more reliable (and expensive) components than the other. Etc, etc. To make a long story short, If I can have the same hardware on the desktop as I do the server, why can't I have the same software as well? > Maybe this mindset needs to be changed. Most of the heavy-duty work in > the world is done by servers and mainframes, not desktops. Most of the > best operating systems in the world are mainframe and server operating > systems, not desktop operating systems. And there's no shame in an > operating system being better at server work than at desktop work; on > the contrary, a good server operating system has considerably more > prestige than a good desktop operating system ... at least in the eyes > of IT professionals who have been around a while. The mindset that needs to change is that we need to keep around an artificial distinction between clients and servers. UNIX moved people away from mainframes to minis. And then it moved them away from minis to micros. At the same time, micros were getting more and more powerful. We have reached there is little difference between the server and the client. > Unfortuately, since so many people know and understand only desktops, > they tend to equate non-desktop with non-existence, and so they get > emotional when someone points out that their favorite OS may not be the > ideal desktop OS. They are interested in UNIX, but only insofar as it > runs on a desktop, since anything that doesn't run on a desktop is only > half an operating system, in their eyes. You're starting to get a bit insulting here. I am in no way suggesting that FreeBSD be taken off the server, so stop acting like that's what I said. Putting FreeBSD on the desktop IN NO WAY affects it on the server. > You can run any piece of junk on a desktop. But what if we don't run to run junk on the desktop? > You can do both if you are willing to sacrifice a little on each. "Jack > of all trades, master of none." That's the Microsoft philosophy: try to > push your OS as the solution to everything. But even they can't get the > concept to work. Servers and clients are just too different. You need > the right tool for the right job. What is there to sacrifice? No one has explained this yet to me. Is ULE somehow inappropriate for the desktop (while Windows' scheduler is)? Does the system break if I choose not to install apache or sendmail? I realize that I could certainly tune FreeBSD for one or the other, but I fail to understand why tuning it one way prevents you from tuning it the other. > This is excellent evidence of the mindset I mentioned above. Why are > people advocating FreeBSD on the desktop, but not on servers? FreeBSD > shines on servers. It is not a substitute for Windows on the desktop. Because I don't have a freaking server! I want to use FreeBSD because that is what I want to use! If I wanted to Windows or OSX or Linux, I would be using Windows or OSX or Linux instead. FreeBSD is perfectly capable of being a desktop system, so why shouldn't I be allowed to use it as such? What is so wrong about doing this? Why can't I come home in the evening to find something other than the crappy Windows I've been using at work? You can have my FreeBSD desktop when you pry it out of my cold dead hands! -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 18:48:30 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4D6216A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:48:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F03543D2F for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:48:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:1871) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D16Wv-0002Ia-41 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:30:33 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:27:39 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEC@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:40:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.3: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:48:30 -0000 From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > To advocate FreeBSD, you must explain why FreeBSD is preferable to other > operating systems. It is not sufficient to say that there is no reason > why someone _cannot_ put FreeBSD on the desktop. The latter response > means that you'll be thanked for your time, and the Microsoft > salesperson will be shown into the conference room. Whereupon the Microsoft salesman will proceed to make a sale for IIS and Exchange on the server. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 18:49:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FACD16A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:49:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF34843D46 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:49:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:1952) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D16Wf-0002K6-4o; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:30:17 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:28:06 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AFA@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'Astrodog' , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:48:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 2.6: Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:49:47 -0000 From: Astrodog [mailto:astrodog@gmail.com] > > NIS/NIS+/LDAP, can all do this quite well. Combined with NFS... hot > damn, you have the same thing, except minus the whole > overhead/multiuser issue below Back when my division was a Solaris shop (even on the desktop) of 1200 employees, that's what we did. Five IT guys handled it all (client and server). But now that we're a Windows shop with only 900 employees, we need 20 MCSEs to keep everything running. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 18:51:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C1616A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:51:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE98C43D39 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:51:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:1885) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D16WW-0002Ik-6D for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:30:08 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:27:43 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEE@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:18:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:51:10 -0000 Apologies for any multiple posts I might have "sent". My work's Exchange server has been acting bizarre all weekend. Last night at home I suddenly received a duplicate of every email I had ever sent to myself from work. This morning at work I discover that each of those messages "bounced" as undeliverable. Now I'm seeing messages I wrote to the list last week. Sigh. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 19:31:29 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20B0316A4DC for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:31:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981E543D45 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:31:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1FJV17R058092; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:31:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <42124E5C.2000503@401.cx> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:32:44 +0100 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cpghost@cordula.ws References: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> <20050215030014.GA53931@fw.farid-hajji.net> <42120E70.3040007@401.cx> <20050215184037.GB58593@fw.farid-hajji.net> In-Reply-To: <20050215184037.GB58593@fw.farid-hajji.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0507-0, 2005-02-15), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Steve Ireland Subject: Re: please, a little sanity about the logo X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:31:29 -0000 cpghost@cordula.ws wrote: > On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 04:00:00PM +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >>>This is similar to SuSE, RedHat and others who use their own >>>logos to distribute the one and only Linux kernel and >>>an assorted set of libraries and utilities. "Linux" itself >>>doesn't have a logo either (if we followed the party line >>>that Tux and Beastie were mascots and not logos). >> >>Thats because nobody runs Linux. They run RedHat, SuSe, Debian >>etc. Linux is a kernel, FreeBSD is an OS. There is a big difference. >>Your logic here implies that the suggestion would be to create a >>logo for the FreeBSD *kernel*, and that has afaik never even been >>brought up. > > > No, this is not a Kernel vs. OS argument. It's about the difference > between the developers (kernel + userland in Linuxland, or the > whole FreeBSD OS in our case), and the vendors. The developers > do what they can do best: writing and testing excellent code. > The vendors package that stuff in neat boxes, print advertizing > and send out people to convince the "suits" to buy their packed > product. I never tried to make it a kernel vs os argument. You mentioned that linux does not have a logo, and I pointed out that linux is not an os, while FreeBSD is. Currently, FreeBSD does not have much support among vendors. Atleast not the kind of support that creates logos and convince suits. I see the logo-contest as a sign that the project is indeed trying to change that, and that they are atleast willing to meet the vendors half-way. Developers should not have to create logos and market a product, thats very true, but if the community surrounding the developers fence off any offer to help with those tasks, the developers will be forced to do them. That is exactly whats happening here. People are stepping in from all directions and offer to improve FreeBSD's image, but they face nothing but hostility. People are screaming everything from "we dont need no logo" and "dont touch our Beastie" to "FreeBSD is a technical project, keep your marketing away from us". If that is how we treat voulenteers trying to help, free of charge, then why do you think any vendor would even consider approaching us? > Vendors are excellent at designing logos, and at marketing (at least > they should be!), while developers excel at coding. That's my point, > not that silly Kernel+Userland vs Whole OS comparison. Im not disagreeing with the first sentence, and it was you that brought up the kernel/userland/os discussion. >>>The FreeBSD Project should IMHO remain vendor neutral, >>>and stick to code development. >> >>Absolutely. No argument here, and so far I have not heard anyone >>else, pro or con image change, argue otherwise. > > > This is exactly the point here. By calling for a logo competition, > the Project is mutating into a vendor. If that is really the idea, > a lot of problems could ensue, e.g. for the Foundation's non-profit > status etc... By calling for a logo competition, the project shows interest in having vendor support. This does not mean that the project itself is turning into a vendor. Having a logo will in no way endanger the non-profit status. Show me a number of serious non-profit organisations, and I will most likely be able to dig up the same number of logos. > Talking about this is perhaps much more important that a puny fight > over logos, Beastie, or whatever. > > >>As pointed out earlier, FreeBSD runs on more edge webservers then >>most of the linux distros combined, and still hardly anyone >>outside the community of hardcore geeks knows what BSD is. Just >>that sentence alone should get people to realize that maybe we >>are missing something here! > > > You're absolutely right here! And still you manage to completely missunderstand almost everything I say. :) > > Cheers, > -cpghost. > I clearly see a need for the FreeBSD project to improve its image, and I will do my best to help it with that. Some people does not want the image to improve, so I guess they will just have to try and stop me. I simply state the obviuos; we will have to agree to disagree on this subject. I will not argue further. Let this thread die now. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 20:00:15 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD5F16A4CF for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:00:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from antivirus2.tbc.net (antivirus2.tbc.net [207.112.224.207]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0005543D53 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:00:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from harrison@tbc.net) Received: from [209.100.183.159] (adsl-183-159.tbcnet.com [209.100.183.159]) by antivirus2.tbc.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1FK0CGs024261 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:00:12 -0600 Message-ID: <42125565.7040300@tbc.net> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:02:45 -0600 From: Shawn Harrison User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> <20050215030014.GA53931@fw.farid-hajji.net> <42120E70.3040007@401.cx> <20050215184037.GB58593@fw.farid-hajji.net> In-Reply-To: <20050215184037.GB58593@fw.farid-hajji.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS - amavis-milter (http://www.amavis.org/) Subject: Public Image and Acceptance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:00:15 -0000 cpghost@cordula.ws wrote [02/15/05 12:40 PM]: > This is exactly the point here. By calling for a logo competition, > the Project is mutating into a vendor. If that is really the idea, > a lot of problems could ensue, e.g. for the Foundation's non-profit > status etc... I think you're overstating it. Calling for a logo competition can arise from a concern about image, whether or not that concern is motivated by profit concerns (as with a vendor) or by public perception and image concerns. Every non-profit needs to be concerned with public perception and image. I agree with those who have stated that there is really no conflict between concern for the quality of the OS and concern for the public image of the OS. As has been stated, those who will fulfill these concerns are often different people -- those who make graphic designs of the website are usually different than those who write kernel modules (usually!). Shawn Harrison P.S. I think the logo competition is the best thing to happen for FreeBSD advocacy in a long time, judging from the conversation that it generated. This list was dead for the whole four months that I had been subscribed to it. -- ________________ harrison@tbc.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 20:15:19 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A547E16A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:15:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from antivirus2.tbc.net (antivirus2.tbc.net [207.112.224.207]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4693943D1F for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:15:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from harrison@tbc.net) Received: from [209.100.183.159] (adsl-183-159.tbcnet.com [209.100.183.159]) by antivirus2.tbc.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1FKFHGs025905 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:15:17 -0600 Message-ID: <421258EE.2000605@tbc.net> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:17:50 -0600 From: Shawn Harrison User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS - amavis-milter (http://www.amavis.org/) Subject: Can FreeBSD Grow Large? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:15:19 -0000 > cpghost@cordula.ws wrote [02/15/05 12:40 PM]: >> On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 04:00:00PM +0100, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >>>>The FreeBSD Project should IMHO remain vendor neutral, >>>>and stick to code development. >>> >>>Absolutely. No argument here, and so far I have not heard anyone >>>else, pro or con image change, argue otherwise. >> >> >> This is exactly the point here. By calling for a logo competition, >> the Project is mutating into a vendor. If that is really the idea, >> a lot of problems could ensue, e.g. for the Foundation's non-profit >> status etc... >> >> Talking about this is perhaps much more important that a puny fight >> over logos, Beastie, or whatever. I agree. Here is one of the real questions to be resolved: Is the FreeBSD project large enough to make a real and significant place for those who have non-programming skills, or is it only to be a hackers' OS? I believe it is _big_ enough, but I don't know if it's _large_ enough. "Big" means numbers. "Large" means width and breadth and diversity. As I understand the current situation, only those who are trusted hackers (committers) have any structural voice whatsoever in the community. That impression was dramatically confirmed yesterday by a post from one of the committers. There is no question that the trusted hackers should be the only ones with any say over the technical direction of the codebase. But that doesn't mean they should be the only decision-making body in the community. Issues of public relations, advocacy, image, even documentation -- these are things that a much larger (or different) spectrum of people can contribute to and should have control of. To take one example, I can script as well as the next guy, and I studied C once, but I am a long way from having the technical chops to be a committer. I spend 8 hours per day managing a large editing project involving dozens of people, and doing a (small) portion of the editing myself. I could probably write, and could certainly edit, many of the documents that would be produced. If I were to get involved in the FreeBSD project at that level, and my contributions were of consistently high value, then there should be some mechanism to recognize my contribution and formally give me the authority to make certain kinds of decisions (probably involving words rather than code). Having a community structure that involves writers and editors and salespeople as well as hackers doesn't (and shouldn't) directly affect what is done in the codebase. The "realms of authority" are distinct. Each type of contributor should be able to exercise authority in his/her own area of expertise. Kernel hackers shouldn't be judging web designs. (Well, unless they are in fact gifted as designers -- sometimes so! But many times not. Notice how ugly a lot of hackers' websites are, even those who bill themselves as web consultants?) Without a mechanism / structure that recognizes and includes all kinds of people as contributors and as "trusted Xers" in whatever X they do, FreeBSD has little chance to grow, because it has no way to recognize and cultivate the non-hackers of the world. (Perhaps that is the way that some people want it. But I would assume -advocacy@ would mean that we want many people to adopt FreeBSD, not just those who are kernel coders.) Just because people aren't getting money out their contributions doesn't mean they don't want _something_ for their effort. In many free software communities, the something is recognition and authority. I don't see a mechanism for that in the FreeBSD community. It is a meritocracy in which only one kind of merit counts for anything. Am I missing something? Perhaps I'm overstating the case? If there is a mechanism for other groups of people to gain real position, recognition, authority, etc. in the FreeBSD community, then a lot more of them will be inclined to get excited about it, get involved with it, promote it, get their friends to try it. I'm assuming that this would be a good thing for FreeBSD. Shawn Harrison From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 20:21:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B4B16A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:21:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A331D43D48 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:21:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2934) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D19BY-0003UW-5p for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:20:40 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:21:24 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:21:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:21:18 -0000 From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > > The operating system and the environment make all the difference. ATMs > are usually PCs, but that doesn't mean that understanding PCs is > equivalent to understanding ATMs. That's part of my point. The differences between servers and clients (which includes desktops) are not so much in the hardware anymore, as in their *use*. An ATM may have a bunch of bins and rollers and cameras attached to it, but in the heart of it lies a PC. Heck, it might even literally be a PC complete with beige case. The latter isn't a joke. It may very will be cheaper for the ATM company to purchase generic prebuilt PCs than to design and fabricate their own board. > The distinction is not artificial; it's a critical and real distinction > that many people today just don't understand. > > I've worked on all these types of systems, and their differences are as > clear as black and white to me. What I am arguing is that those differences are going away. We no longer live in the 1980s (when I started using BSD UNIX). While today's server may have failsafe hotswap hardware, they are not inherently more powerful or speedier than the clients they serve. This is what I meant by "convergence". These differences are not as black and white to younger generations by virtue of the fact that they are no longer black and white. While MVS may be unsuitable for the desktop and OSX unsuitable for the mainframe, there's a huge middle ground that includes FreeBSD. > Many of the requirements of servers and clients are in direct conflict. > Desktops require a GUI, but GUI just gets in the way on a server. > Desktops must be inexpensive, but the reliability requirements of > servers cost money. Desktops must be user-friendly, but servers must be > secure. And so on. Why is there a conflict? Why can't desktops be secure? Why can't servers have usability? I will grant you that servers need failsafe hardware, but that's really a minor point. Speaking of GUIs, the mere existance of /usr/ports/x11/xorg-6.8.1 does not affect the performance or reliability of a FreeBSD server. Neither does actually installing it. Ditto for KDE and GNOME. The fact that I run KDE on my FreeBSD desktop in no way affects the performance or reliability of your server. You can have both. Heck, you already DO have both! The current desktops for X11 might not be perfect, and they might lack somewhat in the usability departments, but that is no argument to eliminate them. And as long as they exist, FreeBSD on the desktop is possible. The problems that FreeBSD on the desktop faces are not about the scheduler, or memory management, or resources, or anything like that. Instead it's mostly about getting new drivers for consumer hardware, and a little bit about smoothing out the installation and configuration workflow (which would benefit both sides). David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 20:38:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E14916A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:38:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from antivirus2.tbc.net (antivirus2.tbc.net [207.112.224.207]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4D8743D4C for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:38:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from harrison@tbc.net) Received: from [209.100.183.159] (adsl-183-159.tbcnet.com [209.100.183.159]) by antivirus2.tbc.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1FKcmGs028360 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:38:48 -0600 Message-ID: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:41:21 -0600 From: Shawn Harrison User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS - amavis-milter (http://www.amavis.org/) Subject: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:38:52 -0000 So, we want lots of people to adopt FreeBSD. Who are they? If the primary use of FreeBSD is for servers, then anyone who runs a server is our target. I know most of the talk recently has been about big businesses and people who spend tens of thousands of dollars on hardware. Yes, it includes them. It also includes Joe Family Man or Jane Small Business who wants to set up a website. Sure it does. Why should Joe and Jane pay $35 a month (or even $10) for dippy Windows web hosting when they can use the DSL or cable account they already have, and the "obsolete" computer from two years ago, to run a top-notch web server using FreeBSD? Just think, they get a local network file and print server out of the deal. I know it's probably too hard for them to do that currently, but that is just a detail that can be solved with writing documents and scripts. There is no reason such people should not be attracted to FreeBSD to do those things. In fact, there are lot's of reasons they _should_ be attracted: - Stability - Security - Simplicity (easiest Unix install I've ever done, very well-designed filesystem, etc.) - Speed (well, in 4.11 anyway....) - inexpenSiveness (using hardware they probably already have or can get on the cheap from the dustbin at work). It's easy to underestimate the numbers of such people. In every community, there is a significant percentage of technically "aware" people who would be interested in trying something like the above scenario, especially if they understood the results that they could get. I know a bunch of people who have tried setting up their own (Linux) boxen, with varying success or (more commonly) failure. How do we communicate with those people (1) what they can do and (2) how they can do it (3) and how it will be better in FreeBSD? If servers are primary, perhaps a secondary use of FreeBSD is the desktop. Well, yes it is. We have X in the ports tree, and a couple of different canned installation options right in sysinstall that will give you an X desktop right off the bat. So it's part of the system, whether you agree that it should be emphasized or not. Perhaps Joe Family Man or Jane Small Business, or even Mr. I. M. InfoTech Manager ("That's IM^2 to you!") will install a FreeBSD server for some purpose, only to discover the desktop and try it out. (I have my computer-illiterate wife and nine-year-old daughter using KDE on FreeBSD, and they're both very happy with it -- much more than with Windows 98. My wife can finally build her website simply by saving files, and my daughter can play Mr. Potato-head and draw pictures. So they're both happy. And I'm happy having that same box serving web pages, a database, and mail for my family.) There is no inherent conflict between growth in the desktop and the quality of the server codebase. There are different kinds of programmers as well as different kinds of people in general, and different programming problems are interesting to different people. If FreeBSD doesn't welcome people who are interested in working on desktop issues or device drivers for consumer scanners, those people aren't going to take their efforts to working on the kernel. They really want a device driver for that scanner, or a GUI console for printing. They'll take their efforts to Debian* where they'll get some recognition and support. (* I'm just pulling out the name of a Linux distro that has an open and well-developed community structure. I don't know much about the actual details of the Debian project, _except_ that they have a well-developed governance structure, and they seem to have divided up the responsibility / recognition / authority among various groups according to ability and interest. It seems that the most successful open-source projects are those that do something like this. Perhaps it's time for FreeBSD to go through those growing pains as well.) Shawn Harrison From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 22:01:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A145616A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:01:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0AD9443D58 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:01:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:00:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEE@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AEE@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <44f1c28e95ed8e69e0dd5643878e8e18@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:01:44 +0100 To: Johnson David X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:01:47 -0000 On Feb 14, 2005, at 8:18 PM, Johnson David wrote: > Apologies for any multiple posts I might have "sent". My work's > Exchange > server has been acting bizarre all weekend. Last night at home I > suddenly > received a duplicate of every email I had ever sent to myself from > work. > This morning at work I discover that each of those messages "bounced" > as > undeliverable. Now I'm seeing messages I wrote to the list last week. > Sigh. It happend again. Interesting problem you've go there. At least this time you will not have to apologise since you're apology got automatically resent as well ;-) /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 15 23:26:28 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984D316A4CE for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:26:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A1C43D1F for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:26:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A706D.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.112.109]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1FNQOYS069851; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:26:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1FNRBix013140; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:27:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1FNRBQL041297; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:27:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200502152327.j1FNRBQL041297@fire.jhs.private> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "Julian Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com/~jhs/ Munich Unix, BSD, Internet User-agent: EXMH http://beedub.com/exmh/ on FreeBSD http://freebsd.org Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:27:11 +0100 Sender: jhs@berklix.org Subject: Can FreeBSD Grow Large? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:26:28 -0000 > From: Shawn Harrison > Message-id: <421258EE.2000605@tbc.net> > only those who are trusted hackers (committers) have any structural > voice whatsoever in the community. Presumably that includes some who hold commit privs mainly for the freebsd.org web site. It's tedious though, how much irrelevant hot air has been dumped onto advocacy@ Re. logo preferences, considering we won't get to vote ! - Apparently commiters will vote; Presumably advocacy@ will not. - Commiters are on the commit list, & current@, I guess just a low percentage of advocacy@ are committers. - Most commiters will probably ignore advocacy@ when they vote. Deduction: people with logo preferences should contact commiters who will vote, not this advocacy@ list that likely includes few voters. Readers of advocacy@ have limited choices: - Face reality, realise logo preference on advocacy@ is hot air, Or ... - Do a load of send-pr's & be individually invited to be a commiter to src/ ports/ doc/ or www/ who can vote, Or ... - Agitate for votes for advocacy@ members (little chance I guess), Or ... - Wait for commiters (who will ignore advocacy@) to choose Their logo, then advocacy@ individuals can ignore or include logo on non freebsd.org controlled BSD advocacy sites & events that advocacy@ readers organise. Best skip the irrelevant logo debates where our views are Not wanted. Best be more constructive, & discuss what we Can do: eg collecting content for web sites to promote business adopting BSD etc. Harvesting facts such as (paraphrasing) ... From: Johnson David To: ... freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AFA@mvaexch01.acuson.com> 1200 employees ... & Five Solaris IT guys then ... V ... 900 employees using MS need 20 MCSEs now. Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 00:55:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C5B116A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:55:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.187]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D94AC43D2D for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:55:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.27.163 with login) by smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Feb 2005 00:55:42 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:55:43 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> In-Reply-To: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502151655.43509.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:55:43 -0000 On Tuesday 15 February 2005 12:41 pm, Shawn Harrison wrote: > So, we want lots of people to adopt FreeBSD. Who are they? > > If the primary use of FreeBSD is for servers, then anyone who runs a > server is our target. > > I know most of the talk recently has been about big businesses and > people who spend tens of thousands of dollars on hardware. Yes, it > includes them. > > It also includes Joe Family Man or Jane Small Business who wants to > set up a website. Sure it does. Why should Joe and Jane pay $35 a > month (or even $10) for dippy Windows web hosting when they can use > the DSL or cable account they already have, and the "obsolete" > computer from two years ago, to run a top-notch web server using > FreeBSD? I agree that FreeBSD can help such people, and in fact that's how I discovered it, while looking for a decent server OS for a home project. However, what you don't mention here is that Joe or Jane really needs a static IP. Most of the time this means upgrading their account. If a number of other people use the account at the same time, or if bandwidth usage is heavy on that line for other reasons, then it means getting a separate account so that the bandwidth needed for the server won't be used up. The $35/mo. doesn't make much of a difference when you're looking at the problems involved, and it may in fact cost less than trying to host it yourself. A client of mine pays $100/yr. for *nix hosting for a site I created. If I were to host it for him it would cost me more than that, and I'd have to charge him a lot more, as I'd need a second line here. And a top-notch server with a maximum of 786Kbit (not byte) up is going to hit the bandwidth wall before it even needs to be top-notch. Just some thoughts, not flaming you ... I've done a lot of research into this, and the situation has changed somewhat in the last five or ten years. You almost always have to pay more for a static IP now - generally a lot more - and *nix hosting can be had for cheap these days, sometimes with a shell. - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 01:06:54 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A869216A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:06:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1624543D1F for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:06:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497E46129; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:06:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 59418-08; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:06:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3A96122; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:06:49 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:07:23 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joshua Tinnin References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <200502151655.43509.krinklyfig@spymac.com> In-Reply-To: <200502151655.43509.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:06:54 -0000 Joshua Tinnin wrote: > On Tuesday 15 February 2005 12:41 pm, Shawn Harrison > wrote: > >>So, we want lots of people to adopt FreeBSD. Who are they? To me? They are users that are: 1. Fed up with the MS upgrades 2. Fed up with paying too much for software (apps and OS) 3. Looking for a viable alternative to the MS empire 4. NOT your average Windows user. The OS, although geared for servers - does well (IMHO and experience) as a desktop PC. As a desktop environment, we would need to ensure that the average Windows user is aware that it's an OS NOT for him/her. Nor should it ever be developed for Joe Windows-User. Windows was created for users that tend not to care if they ever update/protect/etc. the PC they are on. They don't want to know what a console is. The don't care nor understand why Unix is almost always better then Windows. As long as Joe Windows-User can point -n- click, that's about as much work as they want to do. You need to remember why Windows was created. To give the overall population then mindless alternative to using a PC. Thanks to MS, we have a dumbed-down society. Do we really want to develop FreeBSD to be used by these groups of users (No offense intended)? I think not - for when you start to create an OS for the masses, you are doing nothing more then creating a Windows Clone... -- Best regards, Chris In any series of calculations, errors tend to occur at the opposite end to the end at which you begin checking for errors. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 02:27:51 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2405916A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:27:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51CC643D45 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:27:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0468B1C0008D for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:27:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 99DD31C0008A for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:27:48 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050216022748630.99DD31C0008A@mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:27:48 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1248516641.20050216032748@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:27:51 -0000 Shawn Harrison writes: > If the primary use of FreeBSD is for servers, then anyone who runs a > server is our target. Yes! > I know most of the talk recently has been about big businesses and > people who spend tens of thousands of dollars on hardware. Yes, it > includes them. Yes. > It also includes Joe Family Man or Jane Small Business who wants to set > up a website. Sure it does. Why should Joe and Jane pay $35 a month (or > even $10) for dippy Windows web hosting when they can use the DSL or > cable account they already have, and the "obsolete" computer from two > years ago, to run a top-notch web server using FreeBSD? Exactly (provided that Joe Family Man or Jane Small Business are highly computer-literate, that is). One can do almost exactly what the hosting companies do with just a PC and a good broadband connection with a fixed IP address, and it's generally cheaper than having a site hosted. The biggest cost is telecommunications, not the server ... thanks to FreeBSD. The only advantages to hosting companies are greater total bandwidth and more reliable and performant hardware, and these are not usually very important for small sites. I service 350,000 unique visitors a month from the FreeBSD machine sitting on my desk. Of course, Windows is prettier, and someone with absolutely no experience running a server might prefer Windows, at least at first sight. But Windows costs $900 or more, and it requires far more hardware to achieve the same performance goal, and the hardware must be compatible with the OS, which is less likely with Windows Server than it is with FreeBSD. And even though one can get away with running a server in ignorance under Windows, the fact is, anyone running his own server is just asking for trouble unless he learns about the responsibilities of running his own site, so Windows would only give him a sense of false security. To run FreeBSD he has to learn a lot more about running his own Web or mail server ... but those are things he needs to know anyway if he wants to do it all himself. > Just think, they get a local network file and print server > out of the deal. More than that. They get a Web site, a print server, a file server, an e-mail server, their own DNS, their own NTP time sync, and potentially more if they want it. > I know it's probably too hard for them to do that currently, but that > is just a detail that can be solved with writing documents and > scripts. I don't believe in simplifying things too much for people running their own servers. There are certain things they _must_ know if they are going to take responsibility for their own server, and writing scripts or other tools to allow them to proceed in ignorance is only leading them down a dangerous path. For FreeBSD, they must learn a lot more than they'd have to learn with Windows, but the things they learn are things that any sysadmin owes it to himself to know already, so forcing them to be aware of what running a server implies is a good thing. > It's easy to underestimate the numbers of such people. In every > community, there is a significant percentage of technically "aware" > people who would be interested in trying something like the above > scenario, especially if they understood the results that they could > get. I know a bunch of people who have tried setting up their own > (Linux) boxen, with varying success or (more commonly) failure. How do > we communicate with those people (1) what they can do and (2) how they > can do it (3) and how it will be better in FreeBSD? It requires a lot of heavy public relations, which in turn requires a lot of time and/or money. Linux is hyped by people who hope to make a fast buck off Linux, and by people who are so driven by their hatred of Microsoft that they are willing to spend every waking hour promoting Linux. I don't know if other operating systems without fanatics or deep-pocketed promotors to support them can achieve that level of hype, but it should be possible to do some PR at minimal cost. Encouraging sites that run FreeBSD to actually mention the fact on their Web sites would help a lot, especially if they link back to the FreeBSD site (as I do). On this point, it would be very nice to have a selection of official FreeBSD logos in many different sizes that people could put on their sites. The complicated, multicolor graphics that are currently available are too busy and difficult to read for many sites--they look rather amateurish. > If servers are primary, perhaps a secondary use of FreeBSD is the > desktop. Well, yes it is. We have X in the ports tree, and a couple of > different canned installation options right in sysinstall that will give > you an X desktop right off the bat. So it's part of the system, whether > you agree that it should be emphasized or not. Perhaps Joe Family Man or > Jane Small Business, or even Mr. I. M. InfoTech Manager ("That's IM^2 to > you!") will install a FreeBSD server for some purpose, only to discover > the desktop and try it out. There's no problem with that. If they can run a server correctly, they know a lot about computers, and if they know a lot about computers, they should know what they are getting into if they decide to run UNIX on the desktop. > I have my computer-illiterate wife and nine-year-old daughter using KDE > on FreeBSD, and they're both very happy with it -- much more than with > Windows 98. My wife can finally build her website simply by saving > files, and my daughter can play Mr. Potato-head and draw pictures. So > they're both happy. And I'm happy having that same box serving web > pages, a database, and mail for my family. All well and good ... but they didn't install or configure the desktop, did they? Having a UNIX desktop in the family requires at least one computer geek to install and maintain it. Certainly if you have the geek available, and if a FreeBSD desktop does what you want, you can install one, and save money while improving security (because UNIX desktops are rarely targeted by viruses, outside the category of Linux and OS X). The only problem I have is with promoting FreeBSD (or any version of UNIX) as a drop-in replacement for Windows. It will never be that, and it is very misleading to suggest to anyone that it might be. FreeBSD is not a drop-in replacement for a Windows server, either, but the situation is different for servers, because someone running a server cannot afford to be computer-illiterate. A server admin has to know what he is doing, and if he knows what he is doing, he can run FreeBSD just as easily as Windows. Indeed, if he knows what he is doing, he will likely spontaneously decide that FreeBSD is preferable, anyway, since it has many advantages in a server role. That's what happened to me ... after trying both FreeBSD and Windows on the server side, FreeBSD was clearly the winner very early in the game. > There is no inherent conflict between growth in the desktop and the > quality of the server codebase. There are conflicting requirements for servers and clients in the code base. You cannot handle both with good results. You can do both in a very mediocre way, or you can do one very well and the other poorly. Since FreeBSD will never seriously compete with Windows on the desktop, it's irrational to try to emphasize desktop use, because the desktop is a battle that cannot be won, and any emphasis on the desktop is to the detriment of the server side ... a battle that FreeBSD is _already_ in a position to win. > If FreeBSD doesn't welcome people who are interested in working on > desktop issues or device drivers for consumer scanners, those people > aren't going to take their efforts to working on the kernel. They > really want a device driver for that scanner, or a GUI console for > printing. They'll take their efforts to Debian* where they'll get some > recognition and support. Good. They can have it. I need a reliable server, not a kinda-sorta server that wants to be a desktop. I don't see Sun trying to position Solaris as a Windows replacement on the desktop. I don't see IBM trying to position AS/400 on the desktop. Ever wonder why? The only vendor that can challenge Windows to any extent at all on the desktop is Apple. Yes, their latest OS has UNIX under the hood, but they've put billions into a GUI that hides it all, and they've done a vastly better job of this than the ratty little GUIs that are used on other open-source UNIX systems. Not only that, but their GUI is a GUI of its own ... not a wannabe Windows. The difference in quality on the desktop is orders of magnitude between, say, Linux and OS X. You might also say that people like Sun have nice desktops. Yes, they do, but they don't try to claim that a Solaris desktop is a realistic substitute for a Windows desktop. A handful of users can get by with a Solaris desktop, but most need Windows, and Sun is never going to get rich by promoting their OS on the desktop or by trying to make their OS behave more like a Windows desktop (especially if it impacts the use of the OS as a server). -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 02:29:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 433AB16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:29:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F206843D55 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:29:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 11D5E1C0008A for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:29:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id AAA411C00089 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:29:04 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050216022904699.AAA411C00089@mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:29:04 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <762450734.20050216032904@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200502152327.j1FNRBQL041297@fire.jhs.private> References: <200502152327.j1FNRBQL041297@fire.jhs.private> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Can FreeBSD Grow Large? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:29:06 -0000 Julian Stacey writes: > It's tedious though, how much irrelevant hot air has been dumped > onto advocacy@ Re. logo preferences, considering we won't get to vote ! Nothing really prevents you from developing your own logo and using it on your site to promote the OS, though. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 02:31:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF7816A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:31:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5F743D48 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:31:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0907.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 86DAB1C00153 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:31:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0907.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 6527D1C00151 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:31:33 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050216023133414.6527D1C00151@mwinf0907.wanadoo.fr Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:31:32 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <66753302.20050216033132@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200502151655.43509.krinklyfig@spymac.com> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <200502151655.43509.krinklyfig@spymac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:31:35 -0000 Joshua Tinnin writes: > I agree that FreeBSD can help such people, and in fact that's how I > discovered it, while looking for a decent server OS for a home project. > However, what you don't mention here is that Joe or Jane really needs a > static IP. Most of the time this means upgrading their account. If a > number of other people use the account at the same time, or if > bandwidth usage is heavy on that line for other reasons, then it means > getting a separate account so that the bandwidth needed for the server > won't be used up. The $35/mo. doesn't make much of a difference when > you're looking at the problems involved, and it may in fact cost less > than trying to host it yourself. A client of mine pays $100/yr. for > *nix hosting for a site I created. If I were to host it for him it > would cost me more than that, and I'd have to charge him a lot more, as > I'd need a second line here. And a top-notch server with a maximum of > 786Kbit (not byte) up is going to hit the bandwidth wall before it even > needs to be top-notch. By far the biggest problem with running one's own server today is paying for the Internet access. Home and SOHO Internet bandwidth is dramatically overpriced, and ISPs provide very poor service to people running a business over broadband from home, even when they are paying for a "professional" account. Ultimately the limiting factor on what one can do with one's own server is the amount of money one is prepared to pay each month in telecom charges. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 02:40:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B16D616A520 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:40:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3778C43D2F for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:40:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0909.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 603B2240010D for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:40:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0909.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 38C782400108 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:40:22 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050216024022232.38C782400108@mwinf0909.wanadoo.fr Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:40:21 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1728728975.20050216034021@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <200502151655.43509.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:40:23 -0000 Chris writes: > To me? They are users that are: > > 1. Fed up with the MS upgrades > 2. Fed up with paying too much for software (apps and OS) > 3. Looking for a viable alternative to the MS empire > 4. NOT your average Windows user. All the wrong people, generally. FreeBSD is not a solution for people who hate Microsoft. It is not a viable alternative to MS desktop software by any stretch of the imagination, except for a handful of geeks. About the only group above that might be in the market for FreeBSD would be the "non-average" Windows user ... provided that "non-average" means "computer geek." If you aim at these markets, FreeBSD will never go anywhere. Even Linux is unlikely to ever make a dent in Windows, and it won't be for lack of trying. You can't be successful with a slogan like "anything's better than Microsoft." Most computer users don't love or hate Microsoft; they don't care about Microsoft at all. Trying to market to people who hate Microsoft is thus a waste of time. And even of those with an irrational hatred for the company, only a fraction have the technical knowledge required to try an alternate desktop OS like UNIX. > As a desktop environment, we would need to ensure that the average > Windows user is aware that it's an OS NOT for him/her. Not a problem currently, since even sysadmins who could be installing and benefitting from FreeBSD on the server side don't know about the OS. > Do we really want to develop FreeBSD to be used by these groups of users > (No offense intended)? No. But neither do we wish to target Microsoft-haters, either. Trying to get someone to adopt an OS just because it's not from a certain much-hated vendor is a very, very poor way to market the software. Hatred is not synonymous with technical competence, and many people who hate Microsoft (particularly some of the most rabid MS-bashers) don't know enough to use any other OS, whereas many people who are very computer-literate and could profit from FreeBSD do not harbor any irrational hatred of MS. > I think not - for when you start to create an OS for the masses, you > are doing nothing more then creating a Windows Clone... Yes. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 02:56:51 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237E016A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:56:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4099943D48 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:56:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8C06129 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:56:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 59654-10 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:56:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B25D56122 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:56:45 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <4212B690.4040404@makeworld.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:57:20 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050101) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <200502151655.43509.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <1728728975.20050216034021@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <1728728975.20050216034021@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:56:51 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Chris writes: > > >>To me? They are users that are: >> >>1. Fed up with the MS upgrades >>2. Fed up with paying too much for software (apps and OS) >>3. Looking for a viable alternative to the MS empire >>4. NOT your average Windows user. > > > All the wrong people, generally. FreeBSD is not a solution for people > who hate Microsoft. It is not a viable alternative to MS desktop > software by any stretch of the imagination, except for a handful of > geeks. About the only group above that might be in the market for > FreeBSD would be the "non-average" Windows user ... provided that > "non-average" means "computer geek." Not intended to implicate a hatred for MS. Pure and simple, people get tired of a company that puts out an upgrade to either an app or an OS and must pay a somewhat healthy price. Home folks and companies alike are hit with these high costs. That's why OpenSource is looking more attractive to your "non-average" user and company IT nuts. I never mentioned a "hatred" to Uncle Bill and his empire. Simply people growing tired of the same old, same old. > If you aim at these markets, FreeBSD will never go anywhere. Even Linux > is unlikely to ever make a dent in Windows, and it won't be for lack of > trying. You can't be successful with a slogan like "anything's better > than Microsoft." Somewhat true however, Think of Porsche. Certainly there is a market place for the auto - albeit somewhat limited, but yet there still is a demand and a market. So I say, why not? Target the people that want to do more with the PC, that happen to be a bit more sophisticated in "geek-dom" > Most computer users don't love or hate Microsoft; they don't care about > Microsoft at all. Trying to market to people who hate Microsoft is thus > a waste of time. And even of those with an irrational hatred for the > company, only a fraction have the technical knowledge required to try an > alternate desktop OS like UNIX. Again - I never implied a "hatred". I specifically said people whom are tired of (insert reason). >>As a desktop environment, we would need to ensure that the average >>Windows user is aware that it's an OS NOT for him/her. > > > Not a problem currently, since even sysadmins who could be installing > and benefitting from FreeBSD on the server side don't know about the OS. > > >>Do we really want to develop FreeBSD to be used by these groups of users >>(No offense intended)? > > > No. But neither do we wish to target Microsoft-haters, either. Trying > to get someone to adopt an OS just because it's not from a certain > much-hated vendor is a very, very poor way to market the software. > Hatred is not synonymous with technical competence, and many people who > hate Microsoft (particularly some of the most rabid MS-bashers) don't > know enough to use any other OS, whereas many people who are very > computer-literate and could profit from FreeBSD do not harbor any > irrational hatred of MS. Again - I never mentioned MS-Haters. Linux users tend to be that. Re-read the wording I typed. >>I think not - for when you start to create an OS for the masses, you >>are doing nothing more then creating a Windows Clone... > > > Yes. Here we agree. -- Best regards, Chris Performance is directly affected by the perversity of inanimate objects. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 03:05:31 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2223E16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:05:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9442943D2D for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:05:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D4FE11C0008B for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:05:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7FA8F1C0008A for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:05:29 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050216030529522.7FA8F1C0008A@mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:05:29 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1613371449.20050216040529@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:05:31 -0000 Johnson David writes: > That's part of my point. The differences between servers and clients (which > includes desktops) are not so much in the hardware anymore, as in their > *use*. I never claimed a big difference in hardware (although sometimes there is a big difference). I pointed out that the _operating systems_ are very different ... and obviously that is because the purposes to which these systems are put are also very different. > What I am arguing is that those differences are going away. We no longer > live in the 1980s (when I started using BSD UNIX). While today's server may > have failsafe hotswap hardware, they are not inherently more powerful or > speedier than the clients they serve. This is unimportant from a software standpoint. > This is what I meant by "convergence". These differences are not as > black and white to younger generations by virtue of the fact that they > are no longer black and white. While MVS may be unsuitable for the > desktop and OSX unsuitable for the mainframe, there's a huge middle > ground that includes FreeBSD. All UNIX systems are pretty clearly servers, although some are pressed into desktop roles, just as all Windows systems are pretty clearly desktops, although some are pressed into server roles. > Why is there a conflict? Because the requirements of a desktop directly contradict those of a server. And this isn't going to go away. > Why can't desktops be secure? Security conflicts directly with the needs of most desktop users (user-friendliness, broad compatibility, broad support of network-based features, etc.). > Why can't servers have usability? Don't they? > Speaking of GUIs, the mere existance of /usr/ports/x11/xorg-6.8.1 does > not affect the performance or reliability of a FreeBSD server. Neither > does actually installing it. You're half right. Installing it destabilizes the server, and requires making compromises on security. > The fact that I run KDE on my FreeBSD desktop in no way affects the > performance or reliability of your server. True, but it affects the performance and reliability of your FreeBSD machine. > You can have both. Heck, you already DO have both! It depends on how well you want to do something. > The current desktops for X11 might not be perfect, and they might lack > somewhat in the usability departments, but that is no argument to > eliminate them. Nobody has suggested that they be eliminated. > The problems that FreeBSD on the desktop faces are not about the scheduler, > or memory management, or resources, or anything like that. Instead it's > mostly about getting new drivers for consumer hardware, and a little bit > about smoothing out the installation and configuration workflow (which would > benefit both sides). Servers don't need drivers for consumer hardware, and adding lots of drivers destabilizes the OS unless they are uninstalled by default. Server sysadmins don't need to smooth out installation and configuration, since they already know what they are doing. Smoothing things out means taking a lot for granted and doing it behind the user's back, which may be acceptable for desktops, but is often dangerous for servers. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 03:21:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671D116A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:21:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC36F43D49 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:21:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2718D1C00089 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:21:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id EF8441C00088 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:21:31 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050216032131981.EF8441C00088@mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:21:31 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <776154525.20050216042131@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4212B690.4040404@makeworld.com> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <200502151655.43509.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <1728728975.20050216034021@wanadoo.fr> <4212B690.4040404@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:21:33 -0000 Chris writes: > Not intended to implicate a hatred for MS. Pure and simple, people get > tired of a company that puts out an upgrade to either an app or an OS > and must pay a somewhat healthy price. Home folks and companies alike > are hit with these high costs. Not if they don't upgrade. I find upgrades to be expensive, too--so I don't upgrade (I don't need the upgrades). There's no need to change operating systems. > That's why OpenSource is looking more attractive to your "non-average" > user and company IT nuts. It looks superficially attractive, but it's not really a viable alternative to Windows, mostly because the vast majority of desktop applications are written for Windows. If any application could run on any OS, a large segment of the market would probably leave Windows tomorrow, but there's no change of the application situation changing any time soon. > I never mentioned a "hatred" to Uncle Bill and his empire. Simply people > growing tired of the same old, same old. People don't get tired of it, though. Most people just don't care. A computer is like a washing machine to them. They don't care what is running on the machine, as long as they can send e-mail and surf the Web and write homework, or whatever. Windows is the easy solution for them. There is no reason for them to change, and it doesn't bother them that they are running Windows, no matter how "old" it might be. > Somewhat true however, Think of Porsche. Certainly there is a market > place for the auto - albeit somewhat limited, but yet there still is a > demand and a market. Among fans of sports cars, yes. But if Porsche tried to sell to people who normally drive pick-up trucks, how well would it do? > So I say, why not? Target the people that want to do more with the PC, > that happen to be a bit more sophisticated in "geek-dom" Target people who want to run servers. They are largely an untapped market. The desktop is locked up, and that's not going to change. > Again - I never implied a "hatred". I specifically said people whom are > tired of (insert reason). Same thing. These are people with emotional feelings about Microsoft. But most people feel nothing at all towards Microsoft. They don't care. It's like suggesting that people should buy Miele washing machines so that they can get away from Maytag. Who cares? > Again - I never mentioned MS-Haters. Linux users tend to be that. > Re-read the wording I typed. You still are targeting people based on their emotional response to Microsoft. Such people are a very tiny minority, and not a very promising one at that. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 06:20:48 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177F216A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:20:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BFC043D48 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:20:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jon.drews@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so41806wri for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:20:47 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=DefikIpZjWttZCTapnQtUbICOc3wkNHQ2CEvv0TFL5jgksqiJCPwsjcUBuDLK+cRRCF45ow7lLTkocR7Na1mzJfRKx4Jde4EWVDz6X3g7JLnLHv1soilKeQAeWOjJDsqgWHNFDPrvmxfUIY/Dk+J59theDDJ8+zD1NyyRMVXHKo= Received: by 10.54.47.25 with SMTP id u25mr189762wru; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:20:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.54.8 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:20:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <8cb27cbf0502152220604f0693@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:20:46 -0700 From: Jon Drews To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1728728975.20050216034021@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <200502151655.43509.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <1728728975.20050216034021@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Jon Drews List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:20:48 -0000 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:40:21 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Chris writes: > > > To me? They are users that are: > > > > 1. Fed up with the MS upgrades > > 2. Fed up with paying too much for software (apps and OS) > > 3. Looking for a viable alternative to the MS empire > > 4. NOT your average Windows user. > > All the wrong people, generally. FreeBSD is not a solution for people > who hate Microsoft. It is not a viable alternative to MS desktop > software by any stretch of the imagination, except for a handful of FreeBSD is a viable desktop. Gnumeric is in some ways a much better Excel than Excel. For word processors there is TextMaker and or StarOffice. I am well aware of Abiword and Kword, but the latter come with good commercial fonts. MySQL also provides MySQLCC, a gui frontend to MySQL. Evolution, Kmail, or Thunderbird will do fine as MUA's. Arguably Firefox, Epiphany or Konqueror are better than IE. Those items cover about 90% of desktop use. In addition FreeBSD ports comes with a lot of useful software such as Scilab, Gperiodic, Qcad, TGIF, Mplayer, SANE .... Your Microsoft Xp comes with none of that stuff. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 06:29:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A63C16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:29:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FAB43D45 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:29:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20050216062902i9100k50mfe>; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:29:07 +0000 Message-ID: <4212E828.5050800@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:28:56 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cpghost@cordula.ws References: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> <20050215030014.GA53931@fw.farid-hajji.net> In-Reply-To: <20050215030014.GA53931@fw.farid-hajji.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Steve Ireland Subject: Re: please, a little sanity about the logo X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:29:08 -0000 cpghost@cordula.ws wrote: >There have always been a few companies that provided >a commercial version on CDs, and nobody would have any >objections that these companies use their own logos to >push their own version (or an unmodified version) of >FreeBSD into the enterprise. > "In the past, PR has been done by the cdrom companies, but their monitary incentives for doing that is now way down since cdrom sales have dropped so much over the years." -Warner Losh (Core Team) 12/28/04 I think this could be part of the reason. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 07:33:02 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D4116A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:33:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BB643D58 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:33:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1D1JgD-0001WM-CX; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:33:01 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Jon Drews Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:33:33 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <1728728975.20050216034021@wanadoo.fr> <8cb27cbf0502152220604f0693@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8cb27cbf0502152220604f0693@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502160133.34036.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bca285d6a8fd7318feb916a712eb08a5c9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:33:02 -0000 On Wednesday 16 February 2005 12:20 am, Jon Drews wrote: > FreeBSD is a viable desktop. Gnumeric is in some ways a much better > Excel than Excel. For word processors there is TextMaker and or > StarOffice. I am well aware of Abiword and Kword, but the latter come > with good commercial fonts. MySQL also provides MySQLCC, a gui > frontend to MySQL. Evolution, Kmail, or Thunderbird will do fine as > MUA's. Arguably Firefox, Epiphany or Konqueror are better than IE. > Those items cover about 90% of desktop use. > In addition FreeBSD ports comes with a lot of useful software such > as Scilab, Gperiodic, Qcad, TGIF, Mplayer, SANE .... Your Microsoft > Xp comes with none of that stuff. Viable, yes; but not at all marketable as a desktop: 1. Purchasing basic, compatible hardware/peripherals (wifi cards, modems, printers) is difficult. The best example for *BSD and Linux is printers. Despite the fact that HP supports Linux and dominates the retail printer market, it leads the market in producing all-in-one devices that are not compatible with Linux. Solving this problem will never be under the control of the FreeBSD Project (nor Linux, for that matter). 2. Getting Java and Flash plugins to work with browsers is a chore in FreeBSD. Viewing common webpages should be automatic. Can we even go a week without an email from a current/new user having difficulty configuring one of these browser plugins? Although I have the correct plugins "working", there are times when I have to reboot to Windows to successfully use tools on a vendor's website. These are basic things that Windows or Mac OSX users don't have to think about. These 2 issues alone are big enough to kill desktop marketability. Do I still use FreeBSD as a desktop? You betcha! But those of use who enjoy the fact that using kermit across a ssh connection allows you to use globbing while transfering files securely, are neither average nor normal -- my wife would say, "abnormal". Heck, just getting my relatives to configure a Web Folder, a default feature in Windows, so that we could share wedding photos easily was a huge disaster! Again, I agree that FreeBSD is a viable desktop for many; but advertising it as such would lead to bad experiences and a worse reputation. Just my 2 cents worth, Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 07:33:09 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C1D16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:33:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB46243D3F for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:33:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20050216073304i9100k4mpje>; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:33:08 +0000 Message-ID: <4212F72B.2020201@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:32:59 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Stacey References: <200502152327.j1FNRBQL041297@fire.jhs.private> In-Reply-To: <200502152327.j1FNRBQL041297@fire.jhs.private> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Can FreeBSD Grow Large? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:33:09 -0000 Julian Stacey wrote: > > >Presumably that includes some who hold commit privs mainly for the >freebsd.org web site. > >It's tedious though, how much irrelevant hot air has been dumped >onto advocacy@ Re. logo preferences, considering we won't get to vote ! > - Apparently commiters will vote; Presumably advocacy@ will not. > - Commiters are on the commit list, & current@, > I guess just a low percentage of advocacy@ are committers. > - Most commiters will probably ignore advocacy@ when they vote. >Deduction: people with logo preferences should contact commiters >who will vote, not this advocacy@ list that likely includes few voters. > >Readers of advocacy@ have limited choices: > - Face reality, realise logo preference on advocacy@ is hot air, Or ... > - Do a load of send-pr's & be individually invited to be a commiter to > src/ ports/ doc/ or www/ who can vote, Or ... > - Agitate for votes for advocacy@ members (little chance I guess), Or ... > - Wait for commiters (who will ignore advocacy@) to choose Their logo, > then advocacy@ individuals can ignore or include logo on non > freebsd.org controlled BSD advocacy sites & events that advocacy@ > readers organise. > >Best skip the irrelevant logo debates where our views are Not wanted. >Best be more constructive, & discuss what we Can do: eg collecting >content for web sites to promote business adopting BSD etc. Harvesting >facts such as (paraphrasing) ... > > Now that you got me thinking about it... There is no reason why a group of us (I'll help) couldn't fork the entire FreeBSD website, doc, etc. projects and redo or create everything thats needed for a better Image/PR etc. Then just point the download links to the freebsd servers. This way we can just side step all the bullshit and resistance where getting. We could then merge the projects when they finally see the light. If we really wanted to we could just rebrand the entire FreeBSD project, having are own core/committers of web designers, writes/editors, marketing and business people :-). From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 07:49:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A49B216A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:49:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DBCF43D5C for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:49:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20050216074948i9100k4u2se>; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:49:48 +0000 Message-ID: <4212FB17.5070600@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:49:43 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <200502151655.43509.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:49:49 -0000 Chris wrote: > Joshua Tinnin wrote: > >> On Tuesday 15 February 2005 12:41 pm, Shawn Harrison >> wrote: >> >>> So, we want lots of people to adopt FreeBSD. Who are they? >> > > To me? They are users that are: > > 1. Fed up with the MS upgrades > 2. Fed up with paying too much for software (apps and OS) > 3. Looking for a viable alternative to the MS empire > 4. NOT your average Windows user. 5. Fed up with Linux. 6. Wanting to learn (more) about UNIX. 7. People that just want to be different. 8. Those that need/want more control over there computer or want to do things there own way. 9. Need more power then Windows / Microsoft has to offer. 10. Low end / old systems and embedded / industrial systems that need an OS. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 08:30:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AEDB16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:30:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1687743D46 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:30:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050216083002i92004u9gae>; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:30:02 +0000 Message-ID: <42130481.8000406@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:29:53 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <1613371449.20050216040529@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <1613371449.20050216040529@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:30:03 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: >Johnson David writes: > > > >>Speaking of GUIs, the mere existance of /usr/ports/x11/xorg-6.8.1 does >>not affect the performance or reliability of a FreeBSD server. Neither >>does actually installing it. >> >> > >You're half right. Installing it destabilizes the server, and requires >making compromises on security. > > > Care to extrapolate on your comment? You'll need X just to install Oracle on your server. Typically I install X (and nothing else, like; WM, desktop, gtk, qt, fonts, etc.) and links on my servers. This is because it's sometimes useful to do your googling (etc.) for why your server isn't working right at the server and for administering/installing web apps. text mode browsers just suck. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 14:08:39 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 169CB16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:08:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A7943D39 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:08:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1D1Pr3-00075H-JE; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:08:37 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:09:09 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <4212FB17.5070600@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <4212FB17.5070600@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502160809.10039.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bca2c5a19cef7a08bf7f27b802f9c36c95350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:08:39 -0000 On Wednesday 16 February 2005 01:49 am, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Chris wrote: > > Joshua Tinnin wrote: > >> On Tuesday 15 February 2005 12:41 pm, Shawn Harrison > >> > >> wrote: > >>> So, we want lots of people to adopt FreeBSD. Who are they? > > > > To me? They are users that are: > > > > 1. Fed up with the MS upgrades > > 2. Fed up with paying too much for software (apps and OS) > > 3. Looking for a viable alternative to the MS empire > > 4. NOT your average Windows user. > > 5. Fed up with Linux. > 6. Wanting to learn (more) about UNIX. > 7. People that just want to be different. > 8. Those that need/want more control over there computer or want to > do things there own way. > 9. Need more power then Windows / Microsoft has to offer. > 10. Low end / old systems and embedded / industrial systems that need > an OS. > 11. Fed up with vendors' rigid products and empty promises. Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 16:26:15 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C317E16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:26:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E8A43D2D for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:26:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16EE76110; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:26:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 67856-08; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:26:09 -0600 (CST) Received: by makeworld.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7537F6130; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:26:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD7E6129; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:26:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:26:09 -0600 (CST) From: RacerX To: "Andrew L. Gould" In-Reply-To: <200502160809.10039.algould@datawok.com> Message-ID: <20050216101817.Y67991@makeworld.com> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <4212FB17.5070600@nbritton.org> <200502160809.10039.algould@datawok.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:26:15 -0000 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > On Wednesday 16 February 2005 01:49 am, Nikolas Britton wrote: >> Chris wrote: >>> Joshua Tinnin wrote: >>>> On Tuesday 15 February 2005 12:41 pm, Shawn Harrison >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> So, we want lots of people to adopt FreeBSD. Who are they? >>> >>> To me? They are users that are: >>> >>> 1. Fed up with the MS upgrades >>> 2. Fed up with paying too much for software (apps and OS) >>> 3. Looking for a viable alternative to the MS empire >>> 4. NOT your average Windows user. >> >> 5. Fed up with Linux. >> 6. Wanting to learn (more) about UNIX. >> 7. People that just want to be different. >> 8. Those that need/want more control over there computer or want to >> do things there own way. >> 9. Need more power then Windows / Microsoft has to offer. >> 10. Low end / old systems and embedded / industrial systems that need >> an OS. >> > 11. Fed up with vendors' rigid products and empty promises. > > Andrew Gould > Agreed - to me, and I'm not speaking for all (like some here do) *I* myself would like to see FBSD continue in the direction it's going. There isn't anything wrong with a select group of folks being targeted. I don't care if the every-day Windows user ever gets a chance to use or install FreeBSD. It's not for those folks. Never was, and to me, it never ought to be. It's designed for the "compatent" user. The user that know more then a thing or two about OS and hardware. ANY decent user of FBSD CAN install X, CAN install a WM, and CAN have it run very well as a desktop. To me, I don't want this OS for the mindless group of users that are out there. And lastly - FBSD CAN be a solid desktop OS IF the end user wants it to be. Let's STOP saying it isn't or it can't be. Those that say that (in my mind) have failed to get it running on their own devices. As I mentioned before - I have and do use FBSD as both a server and desktop. Have been doing it for a few years, and I'm by no means a unix guru. If *I* can do it, most anyone that WANTS to can do. Let's stop saying it's not a desktop OS - that's simply wrong. Many of us use it for exactly that - for those that have tried and failed at it, I can see why you feel that way - but at least say it from a personal view - not as gospel... That's the most irritating thing to read is someone stating that as a global truth when in fact, it is not. Over and out. Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 17:11:54 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B375A16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:11:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E23A43D48 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:11:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0906.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 30DC81C00212 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:11:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0906.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 18A261C001FF for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:11:53 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050216171153101.18A261C001FF@mwinf0906.wanadoo.fr Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:11:52 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1867240576.20050216181152@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <8cb27cbf0502152220604f0693@mail.gmail.com> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <200502151655.43509.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <1728728975.20050216034021@wanadoo.fr> <8cb27cbf0502152220604f0693@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:11:54 -0000 Jon Drews writes: > FreeBSD is a viable desktop. Unfortunately, that is not true for 99.9999% of all desktop users, for reasons I have already explained. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 17:16:51 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52EDF16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:16:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAD0843D49 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:16:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A0B0A1C000B8 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:16:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 824541C000AD for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:16:49 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050216171649533.824541C000AD@mwinf1112.wanadoo.fr Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:16:49 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <17410148610.20050216181649@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <42130481.8000406@nbritton.org> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <1613371449.20050216040529@wanadoo.fr> <42130481.8000406@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:16:51 -0000 Nikolas Britton writes: > Care to extrapolate on your comment? I've already done so, several times. > You'll need X just to install Oracle on your server. Oracle? I thought the big deal with software like FreeBSD was that it is open source, and free. And you want me to buy and install Oracle on it? Or has Oracle been released to the free open-source world? What's wrong with something like MySQL? > Typically I install X (and nothing else, like; > WM, desktop, gtk, qt, fonts, etc.) and links on my servers. This is > because it's sometimes useful to do your googling (etc.) for why your > server isn't working right at the server and for > administering/installing web apps. text mode browsers just suck. I like lynx. Simple and fast and secure. And Google works very well with lynx. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 17:18:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C099F16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:18:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D75843D54 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:18:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id B42D61C000BF for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:18:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 989C01C00041 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:18:22 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050216171822625.989C01C00041@mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:18:22 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1054445726.20050216181822@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050216101817.Y67991@makeworld.com> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <4212FB17.5070600@nbritton.org> <200502160809.10039.algould@datawok.com> <20050216101817.Y67991@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:18:23 -0000 RacerX writes: > Let's stop saying it's not a desktop OS ... Let's stop talking as if desktops are the alpha and omega of the computer world. Servers are more important than desktops. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 17:27:14 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E76D16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:27:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB4943D2F for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:27:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F8F6129 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:27:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 68111-09 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:27:09 -0600 (CST) Received: by makeworld.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6D6CB6110; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:27:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4D460F0 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:27:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:27:09 -0600 (CST) From: RacerX To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1054445726.20050216181822@wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: <20050216111932.S68320@makeworld.com> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <4212FB17.5070600@nbritton.org> <200502160809.10039.algould@datawok.com> <20050216101817.Y67991@makeworld.com> <1054445726.20050216181822@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:27:14 -0000 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > RacerX writes: > >> Let's stop saying it's not a desktop OS ... > > Let's stop talking as if desktops are the alpha and omega of the > computer world. Servers are more important than desktops. > > -- > Anthony Why is it you only want to consider FBSD as a server OS only? Let's take OpenBSD. Do you really think Theo cares if he targets one or the other? He just ensures that the OS is up to his standards. He does not care if users use it for a server or a desktop. Why are you so hell-bent on dismissing FBSD as a desktop OS? Run that same argument to Bill and company about Windows as a server. Better yet, join a Windows list and start yacking about how Windows ought to drop out of the server base. See what that gets you. I know why you wont - you'd never last in that list as long as you are lasting here. One last time - FBSD IS a viable desktop OS - Stop the blanket personal view as gospel that it's not. Best regards, Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 18:13:58 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171B116A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:13:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 800F943D4C for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:13:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1D1TgS-0007cy-Ju; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:13:56 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: RacerX Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:14:30 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <200502160809.10039.algould@datawok.com> <20050216101817.Y67991@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: <20050216101817.Y67991@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502161214.30312.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bce4abf5e0db9951e7c4c7fde3b04f7c97350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:13:58 -0000 On Wednesday 16 February 2005 10:26 am, RacerX wrote: > On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Andrew L. Gould wrote: > > On Wednesday 16 February 2005 01:49 am, Nikolas Britton wrote: > >> Chris wrote: > >>> Joshua Tinnin wrote: > >>>> On Tuesday 15 February 2005 12:41 pm, Shawn Harrison > >>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> So, we want lots of people to adopt FreeBSD. Who are they? > >>> > >>> To me? They are users that are: > >>> > >>> 1. Fed up with the MS upgrades > >>> 2. Fed up with paying too much for software (apps and OS) > >>> 3. Looking for a viable alternative to the MS empire > >>> 4. NOT your average Windows user. > >> > >> 5. Fed up with Linux. > >> 6. Wanting to learn (more) about UNIX. > >> 7. People that just want to be different. > >> 8. Those that need/want more control over there computer or want > >> to do things there own way. > >> 9. Need more power then Windows / Microsoft has to offer. > >> 10. Low end / old systems and embedded / industrial systems that > >> need an OS. > > > > 11. Fed up with vendors' rigid products and empty promises. > > > > Andrew Gould > > Agreed - to me, and I'm not speaking for all (like some here do) *I* > myself would like to see FBSD continue in the direction it's going. > There isn't anything wrong with a select group of folks being > targeted. > > I don't care if the every-day Windows user ever gets a chance to use > or install FreeBSD. It's not for those folks. Never was, and to me, > it never ought to be. > > It's designed for the "compatent" user. The user that know more then > a thing or two about OS and hardware. ANY decent user of FBSD CAN > install X, CAN install a WM, and CAN have it run very well as a > desktop. > This is a really important point, for a couple of reasons. First, I think the quality of open source software is _partially_ due to the fact that developers are writing code for their own use. Second, (a perception of this non-programmer) user-friendliness seems result in more code and code complexity. What would "dumming down" FreeBSD do to developer resources (time, etc) as well as the operating system itself. > To me, I don't want this OS for the mindless group of users that are > out there. If I didn't agree with you, I wouldn't like how that sounds. ;-) > > And lastly - FBSD CAN be a solid desktop OS IF the end user wants it > to be. Let's STOP saying it isn't or it can't be. Those that say that > (in my mind) have failed to get it running on their own devices. > > As I mentioned before - I have and do use FBSD as both a server and > desktop. Have been doing it for a few years, and I'm by no means a > unix guru. If *I* can do it, most anyone that WANTS to can do. > > Let's stop saying it's not a desktop OS - that's simply wrong. Many > of us use it for exactly that - for those that have tried and failed > at it, I can see why you feel that way - but at least say it from a > personal view - not as gospel... Oh, I wouldn't say I failed; but there is a chasm between the levels computer interest and ability of those on freebsd mailing lists and the general computing public. We could probably be described as statistical outliers. For those who use FreeBSD as a server, FreeBSD the desktop is most definitely an option. The issue here is the audience. When you say FreeBSD can be a desktop, to whom are you talking? If you're saying it on this list, I think it's a truthful statement. However, I think it would be irresponsible to say it to the general public. > > That's the most irritating thing to read is someone stating that as a > global truth when in fact, it is not. > > Over and out. > > Best regards, > Chris Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 18:16:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549E516A4CF for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:16:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183E143D46 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:16:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1D1TiU-0007Eq-Rd for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:16:02 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:16:36 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502161216.36596.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bce86c822c4024107e1c76496a27603292350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 Subject: Scope of FreeBSD and its affect on Advocacy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:16:03 -0000 Has FreeBSD Core defined the scope of goals for FreeBSD as an operating system? If so, where? If not, would this be a good thing to request? I think it would provide the advocacy list a framework in which to work. Best regards, Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 18:31:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 158EC16A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:31:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kane.otenet.gr (kane.otenet.gr [195.170.0.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6706A43D54 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:31:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (aris.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.226])j1GIVdJE011334; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:31:39 +0200 Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (orion [127.0.0.1]) j1GIViXK066900; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:31:44 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost)j1GIVhEg066899; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:31:43 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:31:43 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: RacerX Message-ID: <20050216183143.GA66765@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <4212FB17.5070600@nbritton.org> <200502160809.10039.algould@datawok.com> <20050216101817.Y67991@makeworld.com> <1054445726.20050216181822@wanadoo.fr> <20050216111932.S68320@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050216111932.S68320@makeworld.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:31:55 -0000 On 2005-02-16 11:27, RacerX wrote: >On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> Let's stop talking as if desktops are the alpha and omega of the >> computer world. Servers are more important than desktops. > > Why is it you only want to consider FBSD as a server OS only? Because he's Anthony Atkielski? If what I mean is not so obvious, please refer to his posts from years ago and see for yourself how he has been repeating the same rant over and over again since as far back as I can remember him posting on the FreeBSD lists. See, for instance, some of the oldest hits of a Google Groups search for the terms: group:*.freebsd.* author:atkielski desktop Anthony has been trolling the lists since at least 3.5-4 years ago... http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=9tfvfo%242116%241%40FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw&output=gplain http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=000801c17832%246cf1fa20%240a00000a%40atkielski.com&output=gplain http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=036901c17949%24335163b0%240a00000a%40atkielski.com&output=gplain http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=9u87cl%242pcv%241%40FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw&output=gplain http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=003801c179eb%242cd9ef00%240a00000a%40atkielski.com&output=gplain http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=00d801c17b5d%247c7fcd90%240a00000a%40atkielski.com&output=gplain http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=005a01c18722%24d2d5a860%240a00000a%40atkielski.com&output=gplain The rest of the search results can always be found on Google. Does this answer your question why Anthony (still after 4 years) wants to convince us that we are morons for using FreeBSD desktops? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 18:50:36 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1AC616A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:50:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA9943D1F for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:50:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1EE2D1C0009A for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:50:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E15611C0008E for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:50:33 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050216185033923.E15611C0008E@mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:50:33 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <4346925.20050216195033@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050216111932.S68320@makeworld.com> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <4212FB17.5070600@nbritton.org> <200502160809.10039.algould@datawok.com> <20050216101817.Y67991@makeworld.com> <1054445726.20050216181822@wanadoo.fr> <20050216111932.S68320@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:50:36 -0000 RacerX writes: > Why is it you only want to consider FBSD as a server OS only? Not _only_ as a server OS, but _primarily_ as a server OS. I see way too much discussion of FreeBSD desktops, and not enough of FreeBSD servers. How many Porsches would dealers sell if all they talked about was how they can be used as SUVs? And how many SUVs would dealers sell if all they talked about was how they could be used as racing cars? > Why are you so hell-bent on dismissing FBSD as a desktop OS? Because I know better than to shoot myself in the foot. It makes no sense at all to promote an OS in a role that it fills poorly, while ignoring a role that it fills superbly. I'm not going to turn people against FreeBSD by suggesting they use it for a purpose that it isn't really suited for. They will only be frustrated and disappointed. Meanwhile, the people who could make the best use of it will dismiss it because nobody ever discusses the roles it is best suited for. A lot of people seem to want desperately to see FreeBSD as the ultimate desktop OS. But it's not that, and it won't ever be that unless it is practically rewritten. It's best as a server. I don't understand why people bang their heads against a wall trying to make square pegs fit into round holes. > Run that same argument to Bill and company about Windows as a server. I have. But they have the same irrational, emotional commitment to Windows as some people have to FreeBSD. When people become emotionally involved with an OS, they refuse to recognize that it cannot do it all, and they are especailly unwilling to recognize that it might not be ideal for their own preferred use. > Better yet, join a Windows list and start yacking about how Windows > ought to drop out of the server base. See what that gets you. I don't care what people do with Windows. Its place on the desktop is assured. Unfortunately, FreeBSD doesn't have that kind of mindshare, and so it is dangerous to promote it for the wrong uses. One could easily end up with people dismissing FreeBSD as a desktop (because it disappointed them) AND dismissing it as a server (because nobody told them it could be a server, and by the time they find out they've already had bad experiences with it as a desktop). > I know why you wont - you'd never last in that list as long as you are > lasting here. Why not? > One last time - FBSD IS a viable desktop OS - Stop the blanket personal > view as gospel that it's not. I'm not the one with the religious viewpoint. For better or worse, I see things as they actually are. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 18:54:39 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F40416A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:54:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD8B43D4C for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:54:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2690) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D1UJq-0006fO-4P for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:54:38 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:54:43 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B0C@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:54:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:54:39 -0000 From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > > Server sysadmins don't need to smooth out installation and > configuration, since they already know what they are doing. Smoothing > things out means taking a lot for granted and doing it behind the user's > back, which may be acceptable for desktops, but is often dangerous for > servers. By "smoothing out the workflow", I did not mean to imply obscuring complexity or eliminating functionality. This is the great mistake many Linux distros making right now. They are mistaking confusing simplification with usability. All simplification does is obscure complexity. It does not eliminate it. Improving workflow isn't about making stuff simple, it's about making stuff more efficient. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 19:00:22 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA80416A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:00:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp7.wanadoo.fr (smtp7.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B0443D3F for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:00:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0703.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 502401000095 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:00:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0703.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2F9B9100008C for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:00:21 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050216190021195.2F9B9100008C@mwinf0703.wanadoo.fr Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:00:20 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <19710271738.20050216200020@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B0C@mvaexch01.acuson.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B0C@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:00:22 -0000 Johnson David writes: > By "smoothing out the workflow", I did not mean to imply obscuring > complexity or eliminating functionality. This is the great mistake many > Linux distros making right now. They are mistaking confusing simplification > with usability. All simplification does is obscure complexity. It does not > eliminate it. > > Improving workflow isn't about making stuff simple, it's about making stuff > more efficient. What needs to be made more efficient with FreeBSD? The installation process seemed pretty user-friendly to me. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 19:41:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DCA516A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:41:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC0D43D39 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:41:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268816130 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:41:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 68896-08 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:41:19 -0600 (CST) Received: by makeworld.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C917B6129; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:41:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A2960F0 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:41:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:41:19 -0600 (CST) From: RacerX To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4346925.20050216195033@wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: <20050216133130.X69003@makeworld.com> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <4212FB17.5070600@nbritton.org> <200502160809.10039.algould@datawok.com> <20050216101817.Y67991@makeworld.com> <1054445726.20050216181822@wanadoo.fr> <20050216111932.S68320@makeworld.com> <4346925.20050216195033@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:41:25 -0000 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > RacerX writes: > >> One last time - FBSD IS a viable desktop OS - Stop the blanket personal >> view as gospel that it's not. > > I'm not the one with the religious viewpoint. For better or worse, I > see things as they actually are. > > -- > Anthony > Nor am I - However, I am not foolhearty enough to proclaim FBSD is NOT a viable desktop OS. *I* am not the one makeing a blanket commant as you are. As I have stated before - it IS a viable desktop OS. If users want to use it as such, if they are intelegent enough, they can, they will, and they have done just that... What YOU want to do and have done, is make it so NO user has the option to use FBSD as a desktop. I don't bash anyone for using Windows as a server. They do so for what ever reason. They use Windows as a desktop OS - that's fine. Is it wrong that they use Windows for a server platform - to me, (and note, I said to me. I did not make a blanket comment) it just may be wrong. Am I out trying to tell users that they ought not use Windows of the server? No - that would be wrong on my part. You see the basic and fundemental differance betwix you and I is simply this: I want users to have a choice for both. I won't make a sweping comment like you are doing. You want them to choose only one for server and something else for the desktop by what YOU deem to be correct. Remember; you are not all knowing. You don't know what good for all. Let the common-man have Windows... Let the capable user choose FreeBSD, or NetBSD or OpenBSD or anything he/she wants for a desktop. Don't make the decision for them - afterall, isnt that what Bill Gates has done? Best regards, Chris > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 19:49:00 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9BC516A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:49:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9056143D2F for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:49:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:48:59 -0600 Message-ID: <4213A3AA.1030609@daleco.biz> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:48:58 -0600 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> <20050215030014.GA53931@fw.farid-hajji.net> <42120E70.3040007@401.cx> <20050215184037.GB58593@fw.farid-hajji.net> <42125565.7040300@tbc.net> In-Reply-To: <42125565.7040300@tbc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2005 19:49:00.0486 (UTC) FILETIME=[8F614660:01C51460] Subject: Re: Public Image and Acceptance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:49:01 -0000 Shawn Harrison wrote: > P.S. I think the logo competition is the best thing to happen for > FreeBSD advocacy in a long time, judging from the conversation > that it generated. This list was dead for the whole four months > that I had been subscribed to it. Possibly; perhaps it remains to be seen. It probably is true that the last Good Thing (tm)here was the publication of the _BSD Success Stories_ pamphlet by O'Reilly, which Dru Lavigne {$ramrodded}* in a miraculous few days.... Kevin Kinsey * I don't know what all she did, but it happened. Insert the best verb for a good BSD advocate's work there. Dru, can you draw? ;-) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 20:41:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA8216A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:41:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD7D943D45 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:41:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:3469) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D1Vz9-00029n-3d; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:41:23 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:41:27 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B10@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'Andrew L. Gould'" , RacerX Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:41:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:41:32 -0000 From: Andrew L. Gould [mailto:algould@datawok.com] > > For those who use FreeBSD as a server, FreeBSD the desktop is most > definitely an option. The issue here is the audience. When you say > FreeBSD can be a desktop, to whom are you talking? If you're saying it > on this list, I think it's a truthful statement. However, I think it > would be irresponsible to say it to the general public. I dont' think anyone here has advocated FreeBSD as a desktop for the general public. If this perception is what's causing all the angst, then please rest easy. The Linux motto is "world domination", and that's why it tend to emphasis Linux on every grandmother's desktop. But FreeBSD is not Linux. I don't need FreeBSD running on my grandma's Dell to justify my own choice of it. The desktop "market" for FreeBSD is certainly much much smaller than general public. But that doesn't mean that's its unsuitable for those willing to get their hands dirty and read the FM. My original assertion that started all this hand wringing was that I was willing to extend this group to include those that happened to have a knowledgable and trained administrator as well. I still hold by that assertion. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 20:45:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF43516A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:45:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5F5743D2F for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:45:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1D1W2u-0004Up-5x; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:45:16 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: Johnson David Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:45:50 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B10@mvaexch01.acuson.com> In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B10@mvaexch01.acuson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502161445.50701.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc3ae9ace36e887296eb302cdad37d3a0d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:45:19 -0000 On Wednesday 16 February 2005 02:41 pm, Johnson David wrote: > From: Andrew L. Gould [mailto:algould@datawok.com] > > > For those who use FreeBSD as a server, FreeBSD the desktop is most > > definitely an option. The issue here is the audience. When you > > say FreeBSD can be a desktop, to whom are you talking? If you're > > saying it on this list, I think it's a truthful statement. > > However, I think it would be irresponsible to say it to the general > > public. > > I dont' think anyone here has advocated FreeBSD as a desktop for the > general public. If this perception is what's causing all the angst, > then please rest easy. Okay. Enough said. > The Linux motto is "world domination", and > that's why it tend to emphasis Linux on every grandmother's desktop. > But FreeBSD is not Linux. I don't need FreeBSD running on my > grandma's Dell to justify my own choice of it. > > The desktop "market" for FreeBSD is certainly much much smaller than > general public. But that doesn't mean that's its unsuitable for those > willing to get their hands dirty and read the FM. My original > assertion that started all this hand wringing was that I was willing > to extend this group to include those that happened to have a > knowledgable and trained administrator as well. I still hold by that > assertion. > > David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 16 21:26:36 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0A616A4CE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:26:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F9343D49 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:26:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2705) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D1Wgt-0003Qu-3j for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:26:35 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:26:39 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B13@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:26:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: RE: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:26:36 -0000 From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > >> Improving workflow isn't about making stuff simple, it's about making stuff >> more efficient. > > What needs to be made more efficient with FreeBSD? The installation > process seemed pretty user-friendly to me. This is about efficiency, not user friendliness. The Windows installer is pretty damned friendly, but it's still one of the most inefficient installers I've ever run across. There's a whole bunch of little stuff to fix in sysinstall. The navigation between sysinstall pages is not optimal. Aborting an install usually means a reboot, even if you haven't reached the "commit" stage. Many necessary tasks (network interface, root password) are stuck in the optional post-install stage. There are various inconsistancies here and there. There's also the whole issue of managing installs on multiple machines. FreeBSD does not do this well. Remote, scripted, and unattended installs would be awesome. Something on the order of Solaris' JumpStart would be wonderful. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 02:17:39 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3D7016A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:17:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp810.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp810.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 580E443D1D for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:17:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.27.163 with login) by smtp810.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Feb 2005 02:17:39 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:17:38 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <20050216111932.S68320@makeworld.com> <4346925.20050216195033@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <4346925.20050216195033@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502161817.38662.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:17:40 -0000 On Wednesday 16 February 2005 10:50 am, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Run that same argument to Bill and company about Windows as a > > server. > > I have. But they have the same irrational, emotional commitment to > Windows as some people have to FreeBSD. When people become > emotionally involved with an OS, they refuse to recognize that it > cannot do it all, and they are especailly unwilling to recognize that > it might not be ideal for their own preferred use. Maybe your approach is flawed. - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 05:28:31 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA6DD16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:28:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3444643D31 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:28:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joseph.koshy@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so237791rnf for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:28:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=MH0PMCzmNKTrl3359PjXY6AQAJb5QEb6GAZ/r8l7W3mvjijMH1M5Qq3Fq/pd6PQO0CV+dTFgDCnDCGL4vu+M1X7N+iGxjDa8NkCeGAUZRhnvqTCevYm/uCiH07BhnODUPIMsMLJgHQWckFJR3TyeYo31U6Gmxu/Ur1oC6YISqd0= Received: by 10.38.65.49 with SMTP id n49mr42002rna; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.209.12 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:28:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <84dead72050216212832cc98d4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:28:30 +0000 From: Joseph Koshy To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Sizeof(FreeBSD's user base)? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Joseph Koshy List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:28:31 -0000 This is probably a FAQ. Do we have estimates of the size of our user-base? -- FreeBSD Volunteer, http://people.freebsd.org/~jkoshy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 05:51:44 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFF9A16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:51:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1D943D31 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:51:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050217055143i92004u371e>; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:51:43 +0000 Message-ID: <421430E9.80509@nbritton.org> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:51:37 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <1613371449.20050216040529@wanadoo.fr> <42130481.8000406@nbritton.org> <17410148610.20050216181649@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <17410148610.20050216181649@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:51:44 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: >Nikolas Britton writes: > > > >>Care to extrapolate on your comment? >> >> > >I've already done so, several times. > > No, you haven't or I didn't see it. > > >>You'll need X just to install Oracle on your server. >> >> > >Oracle? I thought the big deal with software like FreeBSD was that it >is open source, and free. And you want me to buy and install Oracle on >it? Or has Oracle been released to the free open-source world? > > One reason would be that it's required for the Compiere open source ERP/CRM software package. They are tring to port it to PostgreSQL and Sybase but those are a long way off because they need $20,000 to do it: http://www.compiere.org/ >What's wrong with something like MySQL? > > Umm where do I start... :-) I'm quite happy with PostgreSQL and can't use MySQL anyways because SQL-Ledger doesn't support MySQL because MySQL is lacking required features. > > >>Typically I install X (and nothing else, like; >>WM, desktop, gtk, qt, fonts, etc.) and links on my servers. This is >>because it's sometimes useful to do your googling (etc.) for why your >>server isn't working right at the server and for >>administering/installing web apps. text mode browsers just suck. >> >> > >I like lynx. Simple and fast and secure. And Google works very well >with lynx. > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 06:06:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1A0B16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:06:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B3443D68 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:06:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050217060641i92004tvm4e>; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:06:41 +0000 Message-ID: <4214346B.4010302@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:06:35 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Kinsey References: <420C2C33.4020607@black-star.net> <20050215030014.GA53931@fw.farid-hajji.net> <42120E70.3040007@401.cx> <20050215184037.GB58593@fw.farid-hajji.net> <42125565.7040300@tbc.net> <4213A3AA.1030609@daleco.biz> In-Reply-To: <4213A3AA.1030609@daleco.biz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Public Image and Acceptance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:06:44 -0000 Kevin Kinsey wrote: > Shawn Harrison wrote: > >> P.S. I think the logo competition is the best thing to happen for >> FreeBSD advocacy in a long time, judging from the conversation >> that it generated. This list was dead for the whole four months >> that I had been subscribed to it. > > > > Possibly; perhaps it remains to be seen. It probably is true that > the last Good Thing (tm)here was the publication of the _BSD > Success Stories_ pamphlet by O'Reilly, which Dru Lavigne > {$ramrodded}* in a miraculous few days.... > > Kevin Kinsey > > * I don't know what all she did, but it happened. Insert the best > verb for a good BSD advocate's work there. Dru, can you draw? ;-) IIRC you where in that pamphlet. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 06:16:21 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E4616A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:16:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C46043D41 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:16:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20050217061620i9100k4prce>; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:16:20 +0000 Message-ID: <421436AE.5090906@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:16:14 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B13@mvaexch01.acuson.com> In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B13@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:16:21 -0000 Johnson David wrote: >There's a whole bunch of little stuff to fix in sysinstall. The navigation >between sysinstall pages is not optimal. Aborting an install usually means a >reboot, even if you haven't reached the "commit" stage. Many necessary tasks >(network interface, root password) are stuck in the optional post-install >stage. There are various inconsistancies here and there. > I have to agree with you here. normally if you hit the wrong thing etc. A lot of times It's easier to reboot/restart the install then it is to step back and redo the part(s) you messed up. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 06:31:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1101416A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:31:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE9043D2F for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:31:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0901.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DC7E5200143B for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:31:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0901.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C07EC2001448 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:31:16 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050217063116788.C07EC2001448@mwinf0901.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:31:16 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <164983706.20050217073116@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <421430E9.80509@nbritton.org> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <1613371449.20050216040529@wanadoo.fr> <42130481.8000406@nbritton.org> <17410148610.20050216181649@wanadoo.fr> <421430E9.80509@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:31:18 -0000 Nikolas Britton writes: > One reason would be that it's required for the Compiere open source > ERP/CRM software package. They are tring to port it to PostgreSQL and > Sybase but those are a long way off because they need $20,000 to do it: > http://www.compiere.org/ It's kind of counterproductive to write an open-source package that won't run without proprietary software installed along with it. > Umm where do I start... :-) I'm quite happy with PostgreSQL and can't > use MySQL anyways because SQL-Ledger doesn't support MySQL because MySQL > is lacking required features. That's fine. I was just asking why not an open-source DBMS, instead of Oracle. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 07:28:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F6616A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:28:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE50343D5C for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:28:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20050217072833i9100k4kdqe>; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:28:33 +0000 Message-ID: <4214479B.90308@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 01:28:27 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <1613371449.20050216040529@wanadoo.fr> <42130481.8000406@nbritton.org> <17410148610.20050216181649@wanadoo.fr> <421430E9.80509@nbritton.org> <164983706.20050217073116@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <164983706.20050217073116@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:28:34 -0000 Anthony Atkielski wrote: >Nikolas Britton writes: > > > >>One reason would be that it's required for the Compiere open source >>ERP/CRM software package. They are tring to port it to PostgreSQL and >>Sybase but those are a long way off because they need $20,000 to do it: >>http://www.compiere.org/ >> >> > >It's kind of counterproductive to write an open-source package that >won't run without proprietary software installed along with it. > > > >>Umm where do I start... :-) I'm quite happy with PostgreSQL and can't >>use MySQL anyways because SQL-Ledger doesn't support MySQL because MySQL >>is lacking required features. >> >> > >That's fine. I was just asking why not an open-source DBMS, instead of >Oracle. > > > I guess thats one way to look at it. Another would be that you just save 20 grand even after you buy the Oracle license, you can freely download Oracle etc... you just need a license (if you want to be legit/get support) if your running it on a production server. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 08:38:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFEB716A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:38:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE3F43D48 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:38:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so254752rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:38:56 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=d2U5D9lwXHkAjxaBS/PN4hJVkxU5ciPFsdERHtvyMjAkrZA5eY1D3fHfSennUDCYCG8AVAWMul+SFrqu9Xkvx4om34ZkBhy4mgFpK+0i1BcAxoaILjf6VWTy/apaivpH/ajqBRBcRBi7AEIdEwttO8h7Bx3CrppgobDG0/WK5Nc= Received: by 10.38.171.77 with SMTP id t77mr76950rne; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:38:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:38:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:38:55 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: Astrodog In-Reply-To: <2fd864e0502100221363647fa@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <2fd864e0502100221363647fa@mail.gmail.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: artwork from hell X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:38:57 -0000 On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:21:47 -0800, Astrodog wrote: > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:49:47 +0100, Thomas Leveille > wrote: > > Beastie forever :) > > > > http://calinourson.free.fr/pics/FreeBSD/powertoflame.png > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > Maybe the efforts that are going into a new logo, would be better > placed writing the "real" stuff that goes into FreeBSD for businesses? > TCO numbers, any legal, SCO-type issues, etc. As it stands now, when > I'm pitching FreeBSD to a customer of mine, they ask for all of that > fun stuff, and I end up writing bits and pieces of it. What's needed > is not a new logo, its a renewed effort in really explaining "Why > should we use FreeBSD?", imo. > > --- Harrison Grundy Oh come on, that image is a good humorous take on the present debate - ultimately people will draw what they want, not what they tell you to, and trying otherwise will just get them to draw humorous images of you. Peopel drawing about FeeBSD is a good thing. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 08:42:05 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 100E716A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:42:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC85243D4C for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:42:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so255093rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:42:04 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=EvMlZXlRwmT5P/zyXLx9rBxQNIG3Tz+GhcDLFfF3h2Q2HIntO3nrlO1Q6iZSdWbisS2xTFpjtcMVyrNkeWrsHnJDGwUIFIiZthDA3r1b28OVwRK6g28tIN3pfbTDXg762fTmTqdAzCyw2sQNH1Is8Mv8Ar4oVdu+8PDFVnI7FAg= Received: by 10.38.92.50 with SMTP id p50mr225343rnb; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:42:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:42:04 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050210005856.GC818@thened.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20050209162202.I31921@knight.ixsystems.net> <20050210005856.GC818@thened.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 5.3 MySQL Performance X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:42:05 -0000 On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:58:56 -0500, Alec Berryman wrote: > Matt Olander on 2005-02-09 16:22:02 -0800: > > > Also, does anybody have any FreeBSD 5.3/MySQL benchmarks? I searched > > the mailing lists but didn't turn up anything. > > There was an article posted to Newsforge today about benchmarking > MySQL on different operating systems. > It was much more an article benchmaketing MySQL on Linux, given the amount of detail on setups, system tuning and so on. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 09:59:12 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A863F16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:59:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A49F43D3F for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:59:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so264194rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 01:59:11 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=fjPxiFKicM+nEyW4sBarDkC3IuDYPgVelRl0oG/nw3sTT/MMYM6ny7ucc6K50ua1NqiLr8cSdlUb80afnqiDxjOWxOjAnuSE2Z9bfmyGKcjhtphr/PeSh8WpeQynNj4wqi6mx8MImCKdy4BCfykhqTxq0+62KLPiNap8Z77Pb24= Received: by 10.39.2.39 with SMTP id e39mr22695rni; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 01:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 01:59:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:59:11 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: Chris Zumbrunn In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <736EAA55-5B8B-11D9-ACB2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> <20050102110732.GB861@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20050103232207.GA44980@gothmog.gr> <9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com> cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website [was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:59:12 -0000 On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:13:49 +0100, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:46 AM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > > The html versions are now available from the following URLs: > > > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1e.html > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2e.html > > > > How does that look? > > > > There is also a patch http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/patch.txt but I'm > > not sure if it's usable. At least it should provide you with a good > > overview of the kind of modifications involved. > > I've updated the html based mockups to incorporate changes I made > resulting from the recent discussions (mainly on the advocacy list). > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html Cool :) Much better colour scheme than before. Theres a problem with use at large text (zoom) sizes though, but its fortunatly still relatively minor at 200%. > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html > The forklift image needs some version number updating ;-) > Cheers, Chris > > chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 > Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ > Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 10:15:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7536E16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:15:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CA5143D49 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:15:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from thomas.leveille@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so266004rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:15:20 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=NFVbMjBh/tRGvMt/UA1eWexFouYuE0kWHaCZkbWUnOrwA9c/3wtyD+4NBFEoqtK5umnDxw+NoLji5b829KZ9bWaP+7CrC20khmi+0uD0ttu6X72F0KKvF5uae0UhQ+6XXUlXZhTZs8hQGr9s+37Ik7qtMdKSA/87Z18FxwRwRVk= Received: by 10.38.164.58 with SMTP id m58mr119186rne; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:15:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.75.48 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:15:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:15:19 +0100 From: Thomas Leveille To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4346925.20050216195033@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <4212FB17.5070600@nbritton.org> <200502160809.10039.algould@datawok.com> <20050216101817.Y67991@makeworld.com> <1054445726.20050216181822@wanadoo.fr> <20050216111932.S68320@makeworld.com> <4346925.20050216195033@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Thomas Leveille List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:15:23 -0000 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:50:33 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > How many Porsches would dealers sell if all they talked about was how > they can be used as SUVs? And how many SUVs would dealers sell if all > they talked about was how they could be used as racing cars? It's a really bad argument. Porsche sells SUVs : the Cayenne. And it uses many components of a traditionnal Porsche 911. > Servers are more important than desktops. FreeBSD can be viable for many tasks, there's no sense to dismiss one of them. We must show people that it can be used efficiently in different ways. BTW, servers are useless without clients. Please stop launching those stupid trolls, that sure doesn't help FreeBSD advocacy. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 10:38:20 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554FE16A4CF for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:38:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF62843D53 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:38:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so268999rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:38:19 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=mXuJ3FcZc1s5Dep2O2AGvx4bCNCxy0+ZtynuhulENgiwWTzsgyoF8ngDwTeSO5r8ndXz3TzuSkXqQP7kRupP6eW3cvFajVhmnelyhzyptIYPW5joQBluOmtijy/59cxYvgfjM1UJvlo+hM1UZGHViEeIkmCFlkMMTpo8SYHLe30= Received: by 10.38.14.37 with SMTP id 37mr38271rnn; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:38:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:38:18 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: Chris Zumbrunn In-Reply-To: <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx> <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:38:20 -0000 On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:53:50 +0100, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > > Don't you think this Beastie qualifies as a professional logo? > > http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif > as a side note - whats teh licence / use policy of your designs you have been posting links to on FreeBSD related materials? > > chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 > Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ > Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 10:43:52 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4435A16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:43:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1AE243D4C for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:43:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so269731rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:43:51 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=Vc3E3Q17sEZ8oFccDfsbRwpML3xBR7zEFPsPMmyWO3DSIwaoHQbwciJ52uqBBs1idUGnLbIkcyyTiCFQBj016VLRnbPJHUt0PlCsPTsjA2MnrSjh0/do07A38ZWtocALwdokVmwPCSS6BMiy3E86x5SbQBAPKw4rs/6vBJQn6Pg= Received: by 10.38.164.58 with SMTP id m58mr132049rne; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:43:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:43:51 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <802915606.20050215174941@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641AFF@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <4211CD96.9000200@nbritton.org> <802915606.20050215174941@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:43:52 -0000 On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:49:41 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Nikolas Britton writes: > > > Create a subproject disto ("lite fork") of FreeBSD that is tuned for the > > desktop and has the needed hardware support, sort of like the old BSD > > patch sets. Or completely fork the project into something like > > "DesktopBSD". Also a good thing to do is pool all the resources of all > > the BSDs into creating a co-opt common DesktopBSD OS. Is also could be a > > commercial project/product. > > I think the project (if it were ever undertaken) should be completely > and permanently separated from the current server-oriented FreeBSD. If > people want to make a mess modifying the OS for desktop use, let them do > it in their own sandbox, and leave the current FreeBSD alone. > You are simply out of your mind and I suspect a lot of that is due to not understanding how FreeBSD the OS and its customisation works. > -- > Anthony > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 10:49:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C1116A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:49:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF8B943D41 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:49:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so270510rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:49:33 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=EF2/4KHXz8J2p0c+W4Lz+AqtYTUUTKCj//Fku4PLuU4DNxvAIWU80J4Udpu8eF0VSIAA8R3jMgUXTal4bYoF+msVZPiZZX1MWMRJPh6NwHGx1vD4A8neT1HtMqDcQcvp8dxBpZCkLGxTy/VIkC52NdmJaQF3ezLE8KDPHdIvxqM= Received: by 10.38.89.15 with SMTP id m15mr38351rnb; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:49:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:49:33 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <776154525.20050216042131@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <200502151655.43509.krinklyfig@spymac.com> <1728728975.20050216034021@wanadoo.fr> <776154525.20050216042131@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:49:34 -0000 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:21:31 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > That's why OpenSource is looking more attractive to your "non-average" > > user and company IT nuts. > > It looks superficially attractive, but it's not really a viable > alternative to Windows, mostly because the vast majority of desktop > applications are written for Windows. If any application could run on > any OS, a large segment of the market would probably leave Windows > tomorrow, but there's no change of the application situation changing > any time soon. > It would be very nice if you started off by demonstarting some basic understanding of modern desktop computer use patterns, both at homes and in corporate settings. As thinsg stand what you say applies to just a portion of desktops. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 11:08:13 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E0016A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:08:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A861243D1D for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:08:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so273188rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:08:12 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=V5iw5OaQkfZWQOkEWoqzTD71UZrcXZtaiE+q6qfgLz3TKFxW5EVI3YamT0mymOKE/+DnyU2GBy93274ghHz/Et47dBn1kHbYRcUnvjo3Q9kZnHEJGtvblO48pVQ5FicOZlz+4oPq9J/PBePaGUAS2iVVj+3aIEtDi0D9kFsQR50= Received: by 10.38.164.58 with SMTP id m58mr143562rne; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:08:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:08:11 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1613371449.20050216040529@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <1613371449.20050216040529@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:08:13 -0000 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:05:29 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Johnson David writes: > > What I am arguing is that those differences are going away. We no longer > > live in the 1980s (when I started using BSD UNIX). While today's server may > > have failsafe hotswap hardware, they are not inherently more powerful or > > speedier than the clients they serve. > > This is unimportant from a software standpoint. > No, its not. > > This is what I meant by "convergence". These differences are not as > > black and white to younger generations by virtue of the fact that they > > are no longer black and white. While MVS may be unsuitable for the > > desktop and OSX unsuitable for the mainframe, there's a huge middle > > ground that includes FreeBSD. > > All UNIX systems are pretty clearly servers, although some are pressed > into desktop roles, just as all Windows systems are pretty clearly > desktops, although some are pressed into server roles. > Clear to clarify? Specificly, care to compare an average 1980s unix to WinNT, especially WinNT 3.5 and the modern enterprise versions and point out which part of which is more suitable for what? > > Why is there a conflict? > > Because the requirements of a desktop directly contradict those of a > server. And this isn't going to go away. > In such a case, *NAME* those requirements. > > Why can't desktops be secure? > > Security conflicts directly with the needs of most desktop users > (user-friendliness, broad compatibility, broad support of network-based > features, etc.). > Security does not conflict with the needs and in reverse, is in many cases mandated by corporate security policies anyways. Starting right off with "no USB storage devices allowed". > > Why can't servers have usability? > > Don't they? > > > Speaking of GUIs, the mere existance of /usr/ports/x11/xorg-6.8.1 does > > not affect the performance or reliability of a FreeBSD server. Neither > > does actually installing it. > > You're half right. Installing it destabilizes the server, and requires > making compromises on security. > Installing itself does not destabilize a server as it doesn't imply running an X server while teh sever is in production. > > The fact that I run KDE on my FreeBSD desktop in no way affects the > > performance or reliability of your server. > > True, but it affects the performance and reliability of your FreeBSD > machine. No it doesn't. > > > You can have both. Heck, you already DO have both! > > It depends on how well you want to do something. > > > The current desktops for X11 might not be perfect, and they might lack > > somewhat in the usability departments, but that is no argument to > > eliminate them. > > Nobody has suggested that they be eliminated. > > > The problems that FreeBSD on the desktop faces are not about the scheduler, > > or memory management, or resources, or anything like that. Instead it's > > mostly about getting new drivers for consumer hardware, and a little bit > > about smoothing out the installation and configuration workflow (which would > > benefit both sides). > > Servers don't need drivers for consumer hardware, and adding lots of It depends on what the server is made up of. > drivers destabilizes the OS unless they are uninstalled by default. > Server sysadmins don't need to smooth out installation and > configuration, since they already know what they are doing. Smoothing > things out means taking a lot for granted and doing it behind the user's > back, which may be acceptable for desktops, but is often dangerous for > servers. > Than you for demonstarting yet again that you are completely out of your mind. > -- > Anthony > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 11:47:48 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDAAF16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:47:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631CF43D3F for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:47:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so278690rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:47:45 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=GzXBKc0qsp041fZvimRAz2ux58DC4Oz6rJQHvfS6T2DqT5uhHjbwLj4Ce6AWGIeMyZ8TSm5T5y/01vm0ccmozWqaF3T76lIohNrwzG+lInDdE3R8ZTSBz9ax9Cv0frczm1fUFYvNMkjZIw1D8Jtx36+gZKGJdjnow6mSM8Cma/E= Received: by 10.38.150.31 with SMTP id x31mr76923rnd; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:47:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:47:45 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <17410148610.20050216181649@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <42130481.8000406@nbritton.org> <17410148610.20050216181649@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:47:49 -0000 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:16:49 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Nikolas Britton writes: > > > Care to extrapolate on your comment? > > I've already done so, several times. > > > You'll need X just to install Oracle on your server. > > Oracle? I thought the big deal with software like FreeBSD was that it > is open source, and free. And you want me to buy and install Oracle on > it? Or has Oracle been released to the free open-source world? > No. The question is not whetever you have to buy Oracle - something that is not the case - but that you can buy and run Oracle on a server and in many cases may well want to, including on FreeBSD. The same applies to many other commercial software packages out there. FreeBSD is primarily an opertaing system and as such should provide services to userland prorams without forcing value jugements as to what kinds of userland programs these are. > What's wrong with something like MySQL? While the uses of Oracle and MySQL are for the most entirely orthognal, the answer is "to run databases". Whats wrong with MySQL is that the kinds of databases you can and really want to run with it are a rather limited set. If what you need is covered by MySQL, sure nothing is wrong with it but it by far doesn't cover everything. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 11:51:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCAE16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:51:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.200]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA87C43D31 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:51:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so279214rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:51:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=CDZwQou5OTjrIFhRcTxixh/RiA9wuH71/tRjzayV/dEokP3BpqIsbMgQ/aWNKw6C0CPEFu4hMTGFueGQ1o4dBOTAD1pK87plZi6MyfiSQ5MR7GmAF/eMZCtZVubQE2MELbmu4wsp3nP+HT5rMQxNO0QTj3doU/1IHHfMr9/Ka+E= Received: by 10.38.11.80 with SMTP id 80mr77330rnk; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:51:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:51:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:51:32 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: Johnson David In-Reply-To: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B13@mvaexch01.acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B13@mvaexch01.acuson.com> cc: "freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:51:33 -0000 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:26:38 -0800, Johnson David wrote: > From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr] > > > >> Improving workflow isn't about making stuff simple, it's about making > stuff > >> more efficient. > > > > What needs to be made more efficient with FreeBSD? The installation > > process seemed pretty user-friendly to me. > > This is about efficiency, not user friendliness. The Windows installer is > pretty damned friendly, but it's still one of the most inefficient > installers I've ever run across. > > There's a whole bunch of little stuff to fix in sysinstall. The navigation > between sysinstall pages is not optimal. Aborting an install usually means a > reboot, even if you haven't reached the "commit" stage. Many necessary tasks > (network interface, root password) are stuck in the optional post-install > stage. There are various inconsistancies here and there. > It would be particularily nice to have a Solaris flar archive style capability for cloning setups. > There's also the whole issue of managing installs on multiple machines. > FreeBSD does not do this well. Remote, scripted, and unattended installs > would be awesome. Something on the order of Solaris' JumpStart would be > wonderful. This too of course, prefrably with integration with the above ;-) > > David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 12:32:29 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6666316A4CF for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:32:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F7043D1F for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:32:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A5CC8.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.92.200]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1HCWOYS078442 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:32:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1HCXMJf001705 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:33:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1HCXMRI036090 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:33:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200502171233.j1HCXMRI036090@fire.jhs.private> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message from Thomas Leveille Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:33:22 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:32:29 -0000 Thomas Leveille wrote Anthony Atkielski: > Please stop launching those stupid trolls, that sure doesn't help > FreeBSD advocacy. Agreed. List Charter: http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy Furthering the Use of FreeBSD Share ideas and plan to increase the number of companies and individuals using FreeBSD. Much hot air on advocacy@ does not qualify. Let's - Tell people to move to chat@freebsd.org. - Report offenders to postmaster@freebsd.org for blocking. - Request postmaster@freebsd.org appends to list definition: "Not for arguing about what FreeBSD is or where it should go." (developers on current@ etc, are unpaid, & advocacy@ people have no right to direct what FreeBSD is & will be.) - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 15:24:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B3E16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:24:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58D6943D49 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:24:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so263927wra for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:24:33 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=tbNTOvznKmB6mKOYf99OA6fIdswivnh1RC8IqlD0Gg0ZDeCesBcxF2YNbIjKs7pCR8NOrYhWRrFYO437pkLkLetg8lJkkdmY2Jiwi0tb39pmR5OjsVy3GgY9TnkgWhMZge3d/vp9UQqaXqpIsqVAw83zvznModQHtiiJhKNJXZ4= Received: by 10.54.41.71 with SMTP id o71mr140022wro; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:24:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e050217072412ef0b18@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:24:32 -0800 From: Astrodog To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: <4212F72B.2020201@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200502152327.j1FNRBQL041297@fire.jhs.private> <4212F72B.2020201@nbritton.org> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Julian Stacey Subject: Re: Can FreeBSD Grow Large? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:24:35 -0000 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:32:59 -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Julian Stacey wrote: > > > > > > >Presumably that includes some who hold commit privs mainly for the > >freebsd.org web site. > > > >It's tedious though, how much irrelevant hot air has been dumped > >onto advocacy@ Re. logo preferences, considering we won't get to vote ! > > - Apparently commiters will vote; Presumably advocacy@ will not. > > - Commiters are on the commit list, & current@, > > I guess just a low percentage of advocacy@ are committers. > > - Most commiters will probably ignore advocacy@ when they vote. > >Deduction: people with logo preferences should contact commiters > >who will vote, not this advocacy@ list that likely includes few voters. > > > >Readers of advocacy@ have limited choices: > > - Face reality, realise logo preference on advocacy@ is hot air, Or ... > > - Do a load of send-pr's & be individually invited to be a commiter to > > src/ ports/ doc/ or www/ who can vote, Or ... > > - Agitate for votes for advocacy@ members (little chance I guess), Or ... > > - Wait for commiters (who will ignore advocacy@) to choose Their logo, > > then advocacy@ individuals can ignore or include logo on non > > freebsd.org controlled BSD advocacy sites & events that advocacy@ > > readers organise. > > > >Best skip the irrelevant logo debates where our views are Not wanted. > >Best be more constructive, & discuss what we Can do: eg collecting > >content for web sites to promote business adopting BSD etc. Harvesting > >facts such as (paraphrasing) ... > > > > > Now that you got me thinking about it... There is no reason why a group > of us (I'll help) couldn't fork the entire FreeBSD website, doc, etc. > projects and redo or create everything thats needed for a better > Image/PR etc. Then just point the download links to the freebsd servers. > This way we can just side step all the bullshit and resistance where > getting. We could then merge the projects when they finally see the > light. If we really wanted to we could just rebrand the entire FreeBSD > project, having are own core/committers of web designers, > writes/editors, marketing and business people :-). I suspect that would not play really well with most FreeBSD users. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 16:33:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD1C16A4CE; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:33:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D8CCC43D2D; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:33:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:32:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: References: <420E5604.9040401@401.cx> <8c411210ef532a4d2d5fd69636632809@czv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:33:30 +0100 To: Sander Vesik X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:33:34 -0000 On Feb 17, 2005, at 11:38 AM, Sander Vesik wrote: > On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:53:50 +0100, Chris Zumbrunn > wrote: >> >> Don't you think this Beastie qualifies as a professional logo? >> >> http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif > > as a side note - whats teh licence / use policy of your designs you > have been posting links to on FreeBSD related materials? As far as I'm concerned, "the Beastie silhouette" can be used as long as it is BSD related. Existing restrictions similar to those for "the BSD Daemon" ( http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/mainpage/copyright.html ) may apply, I'll have to talk to McKusick about that. In other words, for now you'll have to ask me before you can use it. The word FreeBSD, of course, is a registered trademark of the FreeBSD foundation. I'll contact McKusick about that... chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 17:47:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFAED16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:47:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E41343D3F for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:47:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 62EA51C000AB for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:47:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 42F831C000A2 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:47:17 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050217174717274.42F831C000A2@mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:47:16 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <292083231.20050217184716@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <4212FB17.5070600@nbritton.org> <200502160809.10039.algould@datawok.com> <20050216101817.Y67991@makeworld.com> <1054445726.20050216181822@wanadoo.fr> <20050216111932.S68320@makeworld.com> <4346925.20050216195033@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:47:19 -0000 Thomas Leveille writes: > It's a really bad argument. Porsche sells SUVs : the Cayenne. > And it uses many components of a traditionnal Porsche 911. But it's not a Porsche 911, and Porsche does not promote 911s as SUVs. > FreeBSD can be viable for many tasks, there's no sense to dismiss one > of them. Not dimissing it, just putting it into is proper perspective. > Please stop launching those stupid trolls, that sure doesn't help > FreeBSD advocacy. Promoting FreeBSD in the wrong way for the wrong purposes does a lot more damage. Someone who tries to use FreeBSD for a purpose for which it isn't suited, after hearing glowing endorsements by people who don't tell the whole story, may be soured on the OS entirely and may badmouth it for years. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 17:51:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A1FA16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:51:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2E243D4C for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:51:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 62F711C0009D for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:51:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 41C3E1C00094 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:51:06 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050217175106269.41C3E1C00094@mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:51:05 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <128456842.20050217185105@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <1613371449.20050216040529@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:51:08 -0000 Sander Vesik writes: > Specificly, care to compare an average 1980s unix to > WinNT, especially WinNT 3.5 and the modern enterprise versions and > point out which part of which is more suitable for what? The WinNT core is (or was) suitable for server use. It still retains many elements of the design that was intended to make it suitable for that use. But the GUI is a major obstacle to deployment, and a major destabilizing influence, especially in the more recent releases of the OS. > In such a case, *NAME* those requirements. I already have. > Security does not conflict with the needs ... I'm afraid it does. There's always a direct conflict between security and user-friendliness, and between security and compatibility, and between security and performance. On desktops, security is sacrificed in favor of these other characteristics. On servers, security is enhanced to the detriment of these other characteristics. > Installing itself does not destabilize a server as it doesn't imply > running an X server while teh sever is in production. It doesn't need to be run. Just the installation makes destabilizing changes. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 17:52:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11DF416A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:52:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92B943D46 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:52:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1F8651C00096 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:52:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0334A1C000A4 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:52:02 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050217175203132.0334A1C000A4@mwinf1103.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:52:02 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <102131932.20050217185202@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <42130481.8000406@nbritton.org> <17410148610.20050216181649@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:52:04 -0000 Sander Vesik writes: > Whats wrong with MySQL is that the kinds of databases you can and > really want to run with it are a rather limited set. If what you need > is covered by MySQL, sure nothing is wrong with it but it by far > doesn't cover everything. The same argument can be made with respect to FreeBSD on the desktop. Coincidence? -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 17:52:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D726616A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:52:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B16743D41 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:52:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C49256129 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:52:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78964-03 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:52:03 -0600 (CST) Received: by makeworld.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 71B55617A; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:52:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A11D6130 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:52:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:52:03 -0600 (CST) From: RacerX To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <292083231.20050217184716@wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: <20050217114933.G79020@makeworld.com> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <200502160809.10039.algould@datawok.com> <1054445726.20050216181822@wanadoo.fr> <4346925.20050216195033@wanadoo.fr> <292083231.20050217184716@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:52:07 -0000 On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Thomas Leveille writes: > >> It's a really bad argument. Porsche sells SUVs : the Cayenne. >> And it uses many components of a traditionnal Porsche 911. > > But it's not a Porsche 911, and Porsche does not promote 911s as SUVs. BUT - It's a Porshce ... AND, its being promoted for what they are... A sports car (the 911) and the SUV. > >> FreeBSD can be viable for many tasks, there's no sense to dismiss one >> of them. > > Not dimissing it, just putting it into is proper perspective. > >> Please stop launching those stupid trolls, that sure doesn't help >> FreeBSD advocacy. > > Promoting FreeBSD in the wrong way for the wrong purposes does a lot > more damage. Someone who tries to use FreeBSD for a purpose for which > it isn't suited, after hearing glowing endorsements by people who don't > tell the whole story, may be soured on the OS entirely and may badmouth > it for years. > > -- > Anthony > Stop with you wholuer then thou, self proclaimed idea that FBSD isn't a viable desktop... What YOU say is NOT gospel... It's YOUR opinion. What you NEED to do is start arguing the point that it is only YOUR opinion and NOT a defined fact... Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 17:55:31 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3282C16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:55:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A8643D46 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:55:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381366130 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:55:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78932-08 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:55:28 -0600 (CST) Received: by makeworld.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 247BA6129; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:55:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A6C60F3 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:55:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:55:27 -0600 (CST) From: RacerX To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <128456842.20050217185105@wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: <20050217115303.M79020@makeworld.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <128456842.20050217185105@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:55:31 -0000 On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Sander Vesik writes: *Snip* >> Installing itself does not destabilize a server as it doesn't imply >> running an X server while teh sever is in production. > > It doesn't need to be run. Just the installation makes destabilizing > changes. > > -- > Anthony > That is a very harsh statement - Now that you have made it; show us the proof that you base your reply on. Show us the urls that says what you said. Show us the white papers that state what you have stated. Show us the real proof of your last statement, if you cant - its just heresay. Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 18:25:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4064916A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:25:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA26F43D41 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:25:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 21C131C0009E for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:25:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 055331C00086 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:25:23 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050217182524220.055331C00086@mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:25:23 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <687764614.20050217192523@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050217114933.G79020@makeworld.com> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <1054445726.20050216181822@wanadoo.fr> <292083231.20050217184716@wanadoo.fr> <20050217114933.G79020@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:25:25 -0000 RacerX writes: > Stop with you wholuer then thou, self proclaimed idea that FBSD isn't a > viable desktop... What YOU say is NOT gospel... It's YOUR opinion. Aren't your posts opinions as well? -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 18:27:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5968E16A4CF for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:27:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D52243D3F for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:27:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 6DC781C000B7 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:27:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 501D21C000A6 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:27:07 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050217182707328.501D21C000A6@mwinf1102.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:27:07 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <2810734464.20050217192707@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050217115303.M79020@makeworld.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <128456842.20050217185105@wanadoo.fr> <20050217115303.M79020@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:27:08 -0000 RacerX writes: > That is a very harsh statement ... It's a very realistic statement. > Now that you have made it; show us the proof that you base your reply > on. I've explained it at length on many previous occasions. > Show us the urls that says what you said. Why are URLs more reliable than what I say? What about URLs on my own site? > Show us the white papers that state what you have stated. Why are whitepapers more reliable than what I say? What if I'm the author of the whitepaper? -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 18:36:56 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E11416A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:36:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0956643D2D for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:36:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F25461A7 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:36:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 79180-06 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:36:53 -0600 (CST) Received: by makeworld.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 607BC617A; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:36:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A84F6130 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:36:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:36:53 -0600 (CST) From: RacerX To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <687764614.20050217192523@wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: <20050217123452.K79252@makeworld.com> References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <42129CCB.5030203@makeworld.com> <1054445726.20050216181822@wanadoo.fr> <292083231.20050217184716@wanadoo.fr> <20050217114933.G79020@makeworld.com> <687764614.20050217192523@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:36:56 -0000 On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > RacerX writes: > >> Stop with you wholuer then thou, self proclaimed idea that FBSD isn't a >> viable desktop... What YOU say is NOT gospel... It's YOUR opinion. > > Aren't your posts opinions as well? > > -- > Anthony > To an extent - yes Some are opinions, most are from experiance useing FBSD from 2.2.1 thruough current using it in both server and desktop roles. however, I'm making it clear they are my opinions. You are makeing sweeping comments as gosple. Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 18:38:38 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2ED316A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:38:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABC243D48 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:38:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA316130 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:38:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 79135-09 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:38:35 -0600 (CST) Received: by makeworld.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 108F16129; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:38:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F016122 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:38:35 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:38:34 -0600 (CST) From: RacerX To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <2810734464.20050217192707@wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: <20050217123730.O79252@makeworld.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <128456842.20050217185105@wanadoo.fr> <2810734464.20050217192707@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:38:38 -0000 On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > RacerX writes: > >> That is a very harsh statement ... > > It's a very realistic statement. > >> Now that you have made it; show us the proof that you base your reply >> on. > > I've explained it at length on many previous occasions. > >> Show us the urls that says what you said. > > Why are URLs more reliable than what I say? What about URLs on my own > site? > >> Show us the white papers that state what you have stated. > > Why are whitepapers more reliable than what I say? What if I'm the > author of the whitepaper? > > -- > Anthony > Then show us your proof - I do. I have a section on my site dedicated to FBSD as a desktop using various versions from 2.2.1 on up to 5.3-RC From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 18:48:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A7F16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:48:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E377E43D1F for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:48:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.20.76.195]) by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with SMTP <20050217184804.RZBI23542.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:48:04 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:48:41 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20050217104841.2e8b5df2.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <200502161216.36596.algould@datawok.com> References: <200502161216.36596.algould@datawok.com> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.0rc (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Scope of FreeBSD and its affect on Advocacy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:48:06 -0000 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:16:36 -0600 "Andrew L. Gould" wrote: > Has FreeBSD Core defined the scope of goals for FreeBSD as an > operating system? If so, where? If not, would this be a good thing > to request? I think it would provide the advocacy list a framework > in which to work. Quoting from http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/history.html : "1.3.2 FreeBSD Project Goals Contributed by Jordan Hubbard. The goals of the FreeBSD Project are to provide software that may be used for any purpose and without strings attached. Many of us have a significant investment in the code (and project) and would certainly not mind a little financial compensation now and then, but we are definitely not prepared to insist on it. We believe that our first and foremost ``mission'' is to provide code to any and all comers, and for whatever purpose, so that the code gets the widest possible use and provides the widest possible benefit. This is, I believe, one of the most fundamental goals of Free Software and one that we enthusiastically support. That code in our source tree which falls under the GNU General Public License (GPL) or Library General Public License (LGPL) comes with slightly more strings attached, though at least on the side of enforced access rather than the usual opposite. Due to the additional complexities that can evolve in the commercial use of GPL software we do, however, prefer software submitted under the more relaxed BSD copyright when it is a reasonable option to do so." -Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 18:57:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66BC16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:57:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629DD43D45 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:57:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch01.acuson.com ([157.226.230.208]:2910) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D1qqE-0003kf-3O; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:57:34 -0800 Received: by mvaexch01.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:57:36 -0800 Message-ID: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B18@mvaexch01.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'RacerX' , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:57:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:57:36 -0000 I think this thread has degenerated into a series of pointless contradictions bordering on name calling. It's time this thread was closed and we move on to more productive discussions. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 19:00:17 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7842416A4CF for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:00:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (storm.uk.FreeBSD.org [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA52343D55 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:00:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1HJ0Dg4097098 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:00:13 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost)j1HJ0Cug097097 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:00:12 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grovel.grondar.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1HIuvvL044992 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:56:57 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Message-Id: <200502171856.j1HIuvvL044992@grovel.grondar.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.0 06/18/2004 with nmh-1.0.4 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:25:23 +0100." <687764614.20050217192523@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:56:57 +0000 From: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:00:17 -0000 Anthony Atkielski writes: > RacerX writes: > > > Stop with you wholuer then thou, self proclaimed idea that FBSD isn't a > > viable desktop... What YOU say is NOT gospel... It's YOUR opinion. > > Aren't your posts opinions as well? EVERYBODY is posting opinions here. Can we please lighten up on the personal comments, and please also lighten up on the /ad nauseam/ repeating. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 19:13:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 306CA16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:13:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B2943D49 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:13:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC725617A; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:13:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 79284-06; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:13:51 -0600 (CST) Received: by makeworld.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 616556130; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:13:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59DA96129; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:13:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:13:51 -0600 (CST) From: RacerX To: Mark Murray In-Reply-To: <200502171856.j1HIuvvL044992@grovel.grondar.org> Message-ID: <20050217131211.I79433@makeworld.com> References: <200502171856.j1HIuvvL044992@grovel.grondar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.1 (20041222) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:13:55 -0000 On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, Mark Murray wrote: > Anthony Atkielski writes: >> RacerX writes: >> >>> Stop with you wholuer then thou, self proclaimed idea that FBSD isn't a >>> viable desktop... What YOU say is NOT gospel... It's YOUR opinion. >> >> Aren't your posts opinions as well? > > EVERYBODY is posting opinions here. > > Can we please lighten up on the personal comments, and please also > lighten up on the /ad nauseam/ repeating. > > M > -- > Mark Murray > iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH > Indeed - I will no longer reply to the ongoing "discussion". I have seen a few posts that involve this perticular user - and I have to agree with the comments brought forth about the user. Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 19:57:20 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9969D16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:57:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E53A43D5A for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:57:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:57:19 -0600 Message-ID: <4214F71D.2070507@daleco.biz> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:57:17 -0600 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041210 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Koshy References: <84dead72050216212832cc98d4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <84dead72050216212832cc98d4@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Feb 2005 19:57:20.0407 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3C4EA70:01C5152A] cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sizeof(FreeBSD's user base)? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:57:20 -0000 Joseph Koshy wrote: >This is probably a FAQ. > >Do we have estimates of the size of our user-base? > > Estimates? We have hard facts ... All FreeBSD versions since 4.0 have "dialed home" with the complete output of dmesg, `cat /etc/master.passwd`, pkg_info, `cat /var/mail/*` `shar /etc/pwd.db | mail -s "heh, another one" bigbro@1984.freebsd.org` ...and so on. Oops! Sorry, I'm thinking of that *Other* operating system ... "LOWER YOUR FIREWALLS AND SURRENDER. WE WILL ADD YOUR TECHNOLOGICAL DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE." (Fascinating article that got posted the other day...and I thank its writer....) I do find a message from Robert Watson, about 17 months ago, discussing slides from his talk "FreeBSD is *not* Dying". At the moment, his site is not responding to me, along with a bunch of other sites that seem to comprise most of the linkage I can Google on the subject. Interestingly enough, many other sites seem fine. I have a wonderful ISP. Here's the link he gave: http://www.watson.org/~robert/freebsd/20030910-bsdbof/ The mail was to this list, September 28, 2003. Good luck on your quest. Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 20:07:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB94316A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:07:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6965B43D1F for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:07:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from algould@datawok.com) Received: from [206.255.31.21] (helo=[192.168.63.10]) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1D1rvZ-00020Z-Mc; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:07:09 -0500 From: "Andrew L. Gould" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:07:45 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200502161216.36596.algould@datawok.com> <20050217104841.2e8b5df2.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20050217104841.2e8b5df2.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200502171407.45568.algould@datawok.com> X-ELNK-Trace: ee791d459e3d6817d780f4a490ca69563f9fea00a6dd62bc65fa302c272e34340f27542d104f061a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 206.255.31.21 Subject: Re: Scope of FreeBSD and its affect on Advocacy X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:07:11 -0000 On Thursday 17 February 2005 12:48 pm, Chris Pressey wrote: > On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:16:36 -0600 > > "Andrew L. Gould" wrote: > > Has FreeBSD Core defined the scope of goals for FreeBSD as an > > operating system? If so, where? If not, would this be a good > > thing to request? I think it would provide the advocacy list a > > framework in which to work. > > Quoting from > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/history.htm >l : > > "1.3.2 FreeBSD Project Goals > Contributed by Jordan Hubbard. > > The goals of the FreeBSD Project are to provide software that may be > used for any purpose and without strings attached. Many of us have a > significant investment in the code (and project) and would certainly > not mind a little financial compensation now and then, but we are > definitely not prepared to insist on it. We believe that our first > and foremost ``mission'' is to provide code to any and all comers, > and for whatever purpose, so that the code gets the widest possible > use and provides the widest possible benefit. This is, I believe, one > of the most fundamental goals of Free Software and one that we > enthusiastically support. > > That code in our source tree which falls under the GNU General Public > License (GPL) or Library General Public License (LGPL) comes with > slightly more strings attached, though at least on the side of > enforced access rather than the usual opposite. Due to the additional > complexities that can evolve in the commercial use of GPL software we > do, however, prefer software submitted under the more relaxed BSD > copyright when it is a reasonable option to do so." > > -Chris Hmm, sort of broad. When FreeBSD Core prioritizes new features to develop, they are making strategic decisions. What drives these decisions? I refuse to believe that the direction of development is based purely upon whim and argumentation. In the absence of formal guidelines, I prefer to believe that there are informal, shared goals and principles that guide these decisions. Certainly, the quality of the operating system supports this belief. Interestingly, although each *BSD has its own focus, it is possible that these values are the same at fundamental levels across *BSD's. The next logical step in this message would be to suggest that Core discuss the shared values and goals of the Project, and document them to some degree. Since the most relevant values manifest themselves in code, the Core is the appropriate source (no pun intended). Given the bloodfest that occurred over the logo issue, however........ What if Jerry Springer were to host a "*BSD values" discussion at BSDCan?! All kidding aside, it would be cool to get current and past committers to contribute their thoughts on this matter. It's good material for a panel discussion; and the results could help define the community for newcomers. Andrew Gould From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 20:24:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1454B16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:24:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6354543D45 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:24:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so378531rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:24:29 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=NnhAa2CQ4JgOuWE76Wj2FON7AY+N4pSQijj5i2MwJ/6bfGoqK3L3T+mFkMNnEzs783XclZ/Gn0MrZ4XypCQLzZOeAh6raK94mdosvc8XlT+tHGi6ZuCdYvTrgccjngkNLJGAOZc62FUr/QxaVUhpLkQrtpN+u0C7jWa5ZMjJgGw= Received: by 10.39.2.39 with SMTP id e39mr514656rni; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:24:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:24:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:24:29 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <164983706.20050217073116@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <42130481.8000406@nbritton.org><421430E9.80509@nbritton.org> <164983706.20050217073116@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:24:33 -0000 On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:31:16 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Nikolas Britton writes: > > > One reason would be that it's required for the Compiere open source > > ERP/CRM software package. They are tring to port it to PostgreSQL and > > Sybase but those are a long way off because they need $20,000 to do it: > > http://www.compiere.org/ > > It's kind of counterproductive to write an open-source package that > won't run without proprietary software installed along with it. Not at all. For example, presently you cannot do serious data warehousing without using a proprietary database, potentially running on a proprtitary OS. This does not mean that one should not develop a data warehousing / data mining aplication thats available under the BSD licence - of course one can and it will pay off in the future when Open Source databses, most likely PostgresQL are capable enough. You don't need the full stack to be OS for it to make sense or be an advantage. > -- > Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 20:33:53 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6880B16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:33:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0964043D58 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:33:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E539C1C00098 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:33:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id CC9E81C0008C for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:33:51 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050217203351838.CC9E81C0008C@mwinf1101.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:33:51 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <224383192.20050217213351@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050217123730.O79252@makeworld.com> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <128456842.20050217185105@wanadoo.fr> <2810734464.20050217192707@wanadoo.fr> <20050217123730.O79252@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:33:53 -0000 RacerX writes: > Then show us your proof - I do. I have a section on my site dedicated to > FBSD as a desktop using various versions from 2.2.1 on up to 5.3-RC How do you prove that FreeBSD is suitable as a replacement for Windows? -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 20:34:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BED516A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:34:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A5BC43D54 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:34:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so380345rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:34:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=d2nGsk7Z3agavy6AyaTj9ZqwBlBjr0QRESVATfhlv16XPS/7nPE/DY5Z1IipKY3g/8OLm54q+i9CuBBT9ZZjnIbMV0p5HO3HZcRXyPFpupORTT9xqs3NjZfQIRCQdEAo1ER7DraVqLaSa4vSavSWIfcPWp8NfL1MVfEWM0TVmCw= Received: by 10.38.164.58 with SMTP id m58mr208732rne; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:34:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:34:32 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: "Julian H. Stacey" In-Reply-To: <200502171233.j1HCXMRI036090@fire.jhs.private> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200502171233.j1HCXMRI036090@fire.jhs.private> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:34:34 -0000 On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:33:22 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > Much hot air on advocacy@ does not qualify. Let's > - Tell people to move to chat@freebsd.org. > - Report offenders to postmaster@freebsd.org for blocking. > - Request postmaster@freebsd.org appends to list definition: > "Not for arguing about what FreeBSD is or where it should go." > (developers on current@ etc, are unpaid, & advocacy@ people > have no right to direct what FreeBSD is & will be.) I think its hould be slightly more openly worded - for example, discussions (i mean rational discussions with technical details) of what FreeBSD is may be in some warranted - consider for example producing materials to promote the use of FreeBSD in embedded systems or similar. > > - > Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com > Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 20:42:02 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B11C16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:42:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 529D443D39 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:42:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 902EA1C000A1 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:42:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 68F6D1C00084 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:42:01 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050217204201430.68F6D1C00084@mwinf1107.wanadoo.fr Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:42:01 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1145421846.20050217214201@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <42130481.8000406@nbritton.org><421430E9.80509@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:42:02 -0000 Sander Vesik writes: > For example, presently you cannot do serious data warehousing without > using a proprietary database, potentially running on a proprtitary OS. Some users of open-source DBMS might argue with that--just as some users of open-source operating systems argue with the notion that their operating systems cannot be used as serious desktops. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 20:50:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57FFB16A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:50:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (storm.uk.FreeBSD.org [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB2043D45 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:50:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1HKo8dY098421 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:50:08 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost)j1HKo7hF098420 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:50:07 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grovel.grondar.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1HKmNuu046454 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:48:23 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Message-Id: <200502172048.j1HKmNuu046454@grovel.grondar.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.0 06/18/2004 with nmh-1.0.4 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Mark Murray In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:42:01 +0100." <1145421846.20050217214201@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:48:23 +0000 Sender: mark@grondar.org Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:50:10 -0000 Your position on this point is abundantly clear. Now please do your bit for the list's signal level and stop repeating it. M Anthony Atkielski writes: > Sander Vesik writes: > > > For example, presently you cannot do serious data warehousing without > > using a proprietary database, potentially running on a proprtitary OS. > > Some users of open-source DBMS might argue with that--just as some > users of open-source operating systems argue with the notion that their > operating systems cannot be used as serious desktops. > > -- > Anthony > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 20:52:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD0616A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:52:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5BF43D1D for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:52:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j1HKWmdb051973 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:32:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j1HKWmSJ051972 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:32:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:32:48 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050217123248.E42152@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <128456842.20050217185105@wanadoo.fr> <2810734464.20050217192707@wanadoo.fr> <20050217123730.O79252@makeworld.com> <224383192.20050217213351@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <224383192.20050217213351@wanadoo.fr>; from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr on Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 09:33:51PM +0100 Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:52:08 -0000 On Thu, Feb 17, 2005 at 09:33:51PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > How do you prove that FreeBSD is suitable as a replacement for Windows? FreeBSD and others make for an excellent desktop operating system once a few kinks have been worked out. My company uses it, the state of Florida uses it, Pair Networks, Juniper, etc. There are many examples of large organizations replacing Windows with an opensource operating system for their desktop deployments. -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 17 21:11:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBAC716A4CE for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:11:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0305F43D41 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:11:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A7550.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.117.80]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1HLBTYS080484; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:11:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1HLCQX9004422; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:12:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1HLCQgX023578; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:12:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200502172112.j1HLCQgX023578@fire.jhs.private> To: Sander Vesik In-Reply-To: Message from Sander Vesik Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:12:26 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:11:32 -0000 Sander Vesik wrote: > On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:33:22 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > Much hot air on advocacy@ does not qualify. Let's > > - Tell people to move to chat@freebsd.org. > > - Report offenders to postmaster@freebsd.org for blocking. > > - Request postmaster@freebsd.org appends to list definition: > > "Not for arguing about what FreeBSD is or where it should go." > > (developers on current@ etc, are unpaid, & advocacy@ people > > have no right to direct what FreeBSD is & will be.) > > I think its hould be slightly more openly worded - for example, > discussions (i mean rational discussions with technical details) of > what FreeBSD is may be in some warranted - consider for example > producing materials to promote the use of FreeBSD in embedded systems > or similar. OK, fine. Could you (or someone else) please suggest exact words to replace current http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy Furthering the Use of FreeBSD. Share ideas and plan to increase the number of companies and individuals using FreeBSD. Once a number of us back a tighter list definition, we can send it to postmaster@freebsd.org to request it be the official list definition. .. & then use it to tell windy people to go to chat@ or be blocked off list. Thanks - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 00:52:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F6116A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:52:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B609943D49 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:52:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so417590rnf for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:52:31 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=NPbU1IIRDzFGd2qNEE7+PzO2Cn0u3555kn079ks7U4G/ozxtYy0JbYyZ5POe7JRr6kdYmxd3FzBdiOXMmO8n+L/vxq2gSp3CmLKmAIcKglzMsQ/EisTkxtB/qt9SOhaZoh+m3MJRklBdW4f8PqFXY5Bk5V+3NpAHaBn0JUFOqQU= Received: by 10.38.15.45 with SMTP id 45mr30511rno; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:52:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:52:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:52:31 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: "Julian H. Stacey" In-Reply-To: <200502172112.j1HLCQgX023578@fire.jhs.private> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200502172112.j1HLCQgX023578@fire.jhs.private> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:52:32 -0000 On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:12:26 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > Sander Vesik wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:33:22 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > > > Much hot air on advocacy@ does not qualify. Let's > > > - Tell people to move to chat@freebsd.org. > > > - Report offenders to postmaster@freebsd.org for blocking. > > > - Request postmaster@freebsd.org appends to list definition: > > > "Not for arguing about what FreeBSD is or where it should go." > > > (developers on current@ etc, are unpaid, & advocacy@ people > > > have no right to direct what FreeBSD is & will be.) > > > > I think its hould be slightly more openly worded - for example, > > discussions (i mean rational discussions with technical details) of > > what FreeBSD is may be in some warranted - consider for example > > producing materials to promote the use of FreeBSD in embedded systems > > or similar. > > OK, fine. Could you (or someone else) please suggest exact words to > replace current http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > Furthering the Use of FreeBSD. Share ideas and plan to > increase the number of companies and individuals using FreeBSD. > Once a number of us back a tighter list definition, we can send > it to postmaster@freebsd.org to request it be the official list definition. > .. & then use it to tell windy people to go to chat@ or be blocked off list. > Thanks How about something along the lines of: Furthering the Use of FreeBSD. Share ideas and plan to increase the number of companies and individuals using FreeBSD. Discussion of the technical, govrenance or policy aspects of FreeBSD, its community and development should only happen for clarifying said details for some document being written. ? The wording probably needs some more polish though. > > - > Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com > Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 02:44:57 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B5816A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:44:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5AD1A43D49 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:44:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 23772 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2005 02:44:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by salvador with SMTP; 18 Feb 2005 02:44:52 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.246.133]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP <20050218024451.ZMRV1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:44:51 +0800 Message-ID: <42155724.1040209@pacific.net.sg> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:47:00 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Astrodog References: <200502152327.j1FNRBQL041297@fire.jhs.private> <4212F72B.2020201@nbritton.org> <2fd864e050217072412ef0b18@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2fd864e050217072412ef0b18@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Julian Stacey Subject: Re: Can FreeBSD Grow Large? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:44:57 -0000 Hi, Astrodog wrote: >> >>Now that you got me thinking about it... There is no reason why a group >>of us (I'll help) couldn't fork the entire FreeBSD website, doc, etc. >>projects and redo or create everything thats needed for a better >>Image/PR etc. Then just point the download links to the freebsd servers. >>This way we can just side step all the bullshit and resistance where >>getting. We could then merge the projects when they finally see the >>light. If we really wanted to we could just rebrand the entire FreeBSD >>project, having are own core/committers of web designers, >>writes/editors, marketing and business people :-). > > > I suspect that would not play really well with most FreeBSD users. > I think that it is good idea to create a new project concentrating on the other things without affecting FreeBSD as it is. DragonFly or even Darwin are doing the same thing on different levels. When FreeBSD sees things in their projects which are considered good those things are ported into FreeBSD without disturbing the current development. This will be the same with a different "marketing" project. The only difference would be that the "marketing" project continues to use the FreeBSD code base without any changes. FreeBSD would keep the "old" user base and will gain new shares in areas never attracted. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 03:35:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B5C16A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:35:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC9143D46 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:35:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3C2B51C00088 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:35:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1EF2D1C00087 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:35:05 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050218033505126.1EF2D1C00087@mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:35:04 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1843923725.20050218043504@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050217123248.E42152@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <128456842.20050217185105@wanadoo.fr> <2810734464.20050217192707@wanadoo.fr> <20050217123730.O79252@makeworld.com> <224383192.20050217213351@wanadoo.fr> <20050217123248.E42152@knight.ixsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:35:06 -0000 Matt Olander writes: > FreeBSD and others make for an excellent desktop operating system once a few kinks > have been worked out. Apple and Microsoft make excellent desktop operating systems that work exactly as-is. Conversely, Apple and Microsoft make excellent server operating systems, once a few kinks have been worked out. FreeBSD makes an excellent server operating system that works as-is. Do you see the difference? > There are many examples of large organizations replacing Windows with an > opensource operating system for their desktop deployments. There are also many examples of companies trying to do so and then giving up and going back to Windows, usually because they feel for the hype but didn't investigate enough before making the attempt. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 08:58:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9EE016A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:58:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA0143D5A for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:58:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j1I8cmdb055960 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:38:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j1I8cmi9055959 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:38:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:38:48 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050218003848.A55934@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <128456842.20050217185105@wanadoo.fr> <2810734464.20050217192707@wanadoo.fr> <20050217123730.O79252@makeworld.com> <224383192.20050217213351@wanadoo.fr> <20050217123248.E42152@knight.ixsystems.net> <1843923725.20050218043504@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <1843923725.20050218043504@wanadoo.fr>; from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr on Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 04:35:04AM +0100 Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:58:10 -0000 On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 04:35:04AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Apple and Microsoft make excellent desktop operating systems that work > exactly as-is. > > Conversely, Apple and Microsoft make excellent server operating systems, > once a few kinks have been worked out. FreeBSD makes an excellent > server operating system that works as-is. > > Do you see the difference? yes, neither one is free or opensource. > There are also many examples of companies trying to do so and then > giving up and going back to Windows, usually because they feel for the > hype but didn't investigate enough before making the attempt. there are also numerous examples of corporations that used other proprietary operating system that are no longer in business. I think you are on the wrong list. this is FreeBSD advocacy. please post elsewhere unless you have some advocacy information that we can use here for the FreeBSD operating system. thanks, -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 09:12:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62C8016A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:12:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from jail.idea-anvil.net (idea-anvil.net [63.226.12.96]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB40843D1F for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:12:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from aksis@idea-anvil.net) Received: from idea-anvil.net (vaio [10.0.0.99]) by jail.idea-anvil.net (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1I9C9YR031972 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:12:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from aksis@idea-anvil.net) From: aksis Organization: idea-anvil.net To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:12:07 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502180212.08316.aksis@idea-anvil.net> Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:12:10 -0000 On Saturday 12 February 2005 05:16 pm, stheg olloydson wrote: > it was cried into the wilderness of rancor by Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav on > Fri Feb 11 09:30:50 2005: > > > > >Likewise, Beastie is a mascot, not a logo. In fact, it fails the > >primary and most important test of logoness: it is not exclusive to > >the FreeBSD project, but is shared by all BSD projects. It also fails > >several other important tests of logoness: it is not under the FreeBSD > >project's direct control (our use of it is subject to the whim and > >mercy of Kirk McKusick); it is not a registered trademark; it is > >probably too diluted already to even be eligible to be registered as a > >trademark. > > Something I was contemplating is that through out history there have been m= any=20 "gatekeeper" systems that have been implemented to keep the masses at bay.= =20 In history they have usually been some type of icon/gargoyle that invoked f= ear=20 in people. For those who could conquer fear, they could pass the gate. The= =20 people who passed the gate were of a higher level of consciousness. They we= re=20 the ones not governed by fear, the people who were willing to take risks an= d=20 experiment etc... These are some important qualities for *any* kind of=20 development environment. When the time came, after the groups creation had= =20 been developed and was ready for the masses, the "gatekeeper" was removed o= r=20 de-mystified and the masses could now have access to what they would have=20 destroyed or broken due to lack of understanding or out of fear. I see that beastie could be serveing this purpose. I also see that if FreeB= SD,=20 as an OS, is intending to be released to the mases then it would be wise to= =20 get rid of a mascot that, for the majority of the world, is associated with= =20 evil and/or dis-service. The mascot will turn off a lot of people. It woul= d=20 just be one more reason *not* to use freebsd.=20 It is the %1 who makes useful things for the %99, its also the %1 who is=20 beyond tripping on what mascot is being used and passes the "gate"... its=20 what is behind the mascot that is important to the %1. Don't let you person= al=20 taste for a particular decoration on the "cake" spoil the birthday party fo= r=20 the %99. If, however, FreeBSD is: still in its infancy stage; is not intended for th= e=20 masses; is not yet ready for the masses, then such a gatekeeper system woul= d=20 be wise to keep in place. It keeps the ignorant/fearful masses at bay. If t= he=20 masses are allowed in too soon, they will trip on/over the small unfinished= =20 details. That the majority of people in the world do have some deep rooted fears=20 surrounding "devils" goes with out saying. This may just be a *small* facto= r=20 in the mass mind, but its a hang up, and easily overcome by choosing a=20 different mascot *when* the time is right.=20 If the goal of making FreeBSD a widely used OS or even the #1 OS, then it=20 isn't a question of if the mascot should be changed, but when, and to what. The motto is: "FreeBSD: The Power to Serve" What mascot would fit the motto in the mass mind? Seeing as how in most peoples minds "Devils" are a dis-service, it *is* a p= oor=20 choice. It will be easier to change the mascot then to change the minds of= =20 the masses. Prehaps a Butler, with a Tux and a Tray in hand, with the FreeBSD motto=20 above/on the tray would be inline for a high quality Server OS.=20 =2D-=20 James "When you run 2 battelships into each other, they both sink." From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 16:05:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB1316A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:05:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E09F43D2F for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:05:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A3FB0.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.63.176]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1IG52YS086013; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:05:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1IG61P7002787; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:06:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@tower.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1IG61dQ010592; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:06:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200502181606.j1IG61dQ010592@fire.jhs.private> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message from Sander Vesik Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:06:01 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:05:06 -0000 Sander Vesik wrote: > On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:12:26 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > Sander Vesik wrote: > > > On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:33:22 +0100, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > > > > > Much hot air on advocacy@ does not qualify. Let's > > > > - Tell people to move to chat@freebsd.org. > > > > - Report offenders to postmaster@freebsd.org for blocking. > > > > - Request postmaster@freebsd.org appends to list definition: > > > > "Not for arguing about what FreeBSD is or where it should go." > > > > (developers on current@ etc, are unpaid, & advocacy@ people > > > > have no right to direct what FreeBSD is & will be.) > > > > > > I think its hould be slightly more openly worded - for example, > > > discussions (i mean rational discussions with technical details) of > > > what FreeBSD is may be in some warranted - consider for example > > > producing materials to promote the use of FreeBSD in embedded systems > > > or similar. > > > > OK, fine. Could you (or someone else) please suggest exact words to > > replace current http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > Furthering the Use of FreeBSD. Share ideas and plan to > > increase the number of companies and individuals using FreeBSD. > > Once a number of us back a tighter list definition, we can send > > it to postmaster@freebsd.org to request it be the official list definition. > > .. & then use it to tell windy people to go to chat@ or be blocked off list. > > Thanks > > How about something along the lines of: > > Furthering the Use of FreeBSD. Share ideas and plan to increase > the number of > companies and individuals using FreeBSD. Discussion of the > technical, govrenance > or policy aspects of FreeBSD, its community and development > should only happen > for clarifying said details for some document being written. > > ? The wording probably needs some more polish though. If brief is beautiful :-) ... Instead of current http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy how about inserting: To promote FreeBSD by supporting external advocacy. Not for advocating change within FreeBSD, for which use eg: `send-pr`, current@, www@, webmaster@, chat@. If people could support that ? It could limit the windy. - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 16:54:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A43A616A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:54:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446EE43D5C for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:54:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id F27111C000B9 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:54:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D349F1C000B1 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:54:06 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050218165406865.D349F1C000B1@mwinf1104.wanadoo.fr Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:54:06 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <12810328452.20050218175406@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050218003848.A55934@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <128456842.20050217185105@wanadoo.fr> <2810734464.20050217192707@wanadoo.fr> <20050217123730.O79252@makeworld.com> <224383192.20050217213351@wanadoo.fr> <20050217123248.E42152@knight.ixsystems.net> <1843923725.20050218043504@wanadoo.fr> <20050218003848.A55934@knight.ixsystems.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:54:08 -0000 Matt Olander writes: > please post elsewhere unless you have some advocacy information that we > can use here for the FreeBSD operating system. I advocate the use of FreeBSD for servers. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 17:15:36 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E9F916A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:15:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from jail.idea-anvil.net (idea-anvil.net [63.226.12.96]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF30143D67 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:15:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from aksis@idea-anvil.net) Received: from idea-anvil.net (vaio [10.0.0.99]) by jail.idea-anvil.net (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j1IHFZj8046559 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:15:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from aksis@idea-anvil.net) From: aksis Organization: idea-anvil.net To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:15:22 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <42125E71.30804@tbc.net> <776154525.20050216042131@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502181015.24402.aksis@idea-anvil.net> Subject: Re: Assuming We Want FreeBSD to Grow: Who Is It For? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:15:36 -0000 One other market to consider is offices environments. KDE has all the basic office software and it runs well on FreeBSD. The office suite has become quite a bit more compatible with MS formats. The license costs for 100 workstations that people are just doing some data entry or other similar repetitive tasks would be much cheaper. Major Upgrades would cost less. Not sure on the development costs for a specific program for a company would be any less expensive but some of these large companies might be willing to invest the a little of the money they are saving in further development of already existing open source software to have a feature or 2 added. LAN services for the office. I'm sure people could imagine more uses for office environments that would benifit from using FreeBSD for their workstations. -- James "When you run 2 battelships into each other, they both sink." From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 17:56:19 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2384F16A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:56:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq1.home.nl (smtpq1.home.nl [213.51.128.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D51543D62 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:56:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.132] (port=44229 helo=smtp1.home.nl) by smtpq1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D2CMT-0000AF-V1 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:56:17 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:34128 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D2CMS-00046n-2B for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:56:16 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <12810328452.20050218175406@wanadoo.fr> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <128456842.20050217185105@wanadoo.fr> <2810734464.20050217192707@wanadoo.fr> <224383192.20050217213351@wanadoo.fr> <20050217123248.E42152@knight.ixsystems.net> <1843923725.20050218043504@wanadoo.fr> <20050218003848.A55934@knight.ixsystems.net> <12810328452.20050218175406@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: SiteTronics Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:56:15 +0100 Message-Id: <1108749375.4084.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:56:19 -0000 On Fri, 2005-02-18 at 17:54 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Matt Olander writes: > > > please post elsewhere unless you have some advocacy information that we > > can use here for the FreeBSD operating system. > > I advocate the use of FreeBSD for servers. And you bash all others who seem to think it might have other purposes. Quit it, you're doing nothing better for the list. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 18:04:17 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEDF16A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:04:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp9.wanadoo.fr (smtp9.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C0743D55 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:04:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf0904.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2763524001A0 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:04:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf0904.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 0B5FA2400187 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:04:16 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050218180416466.0B5FA2400187@mwinf0904.wanadoo.fr Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:04:15 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <132078226.20050218190415@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200502181733.j1IHXkRF057650@grovel.grondar.org> References: Your message of "Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:54:06 +0100." <12810328452.20050218175406@wanadoo.fr> <200502181733.j1IHXkRF057650@grovel.grondar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:04:17 -0000 Mark Murray writes: > Anthony Atkielski writes: >> I advocate the use of FreeBSD for servers. > > Final warning. > > If you don't stop trolling this list, I will set a moderation bit on your > posts. > > M > -- > Mark Murray > iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH You forgot to copy your threat to the list, so I've done it for you. You also forgot to say what you really mean: the only type of "advocacy" that you'll tolerate is agreement with your own opinions. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 18:07:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F8016A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:07:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp11.wanadoo.fr (smtp11.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5743143D46 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:07:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from atkielski.anthony@wanadoo.fr) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3C23B1C000B0 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:07:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from pix.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-111-2-1-3.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.80.3]) by mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1ECDD1C000AE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:07:32 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20050218180732126.1ECDD1C000AE@mwinf1109.wanadoo.fr Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:07:31 +0100 From: Anthony Atkielski X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <19718839.20050218190731@wanadoo.fr> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1108749375.4084.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <9C4E897FB284BF4DBC9C0DC42FB34617641B03@mvaexch01.acuson.com> <128456842.20050217185105@wanadoo.fr> <2810734464.20050217192707@wanadoo.fr> <224383192.20050217213351@wanadoo.fr> <20050217123248.E42152@knight.ixsystems.net> <1843923725.20050218043504@wanadoo.fr> <20050218003848.A55934@knight.ixsystems.net> <12810328452.20050218175406@wanadoo.fr> <1108749375.4084.53.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:07:33 -0000 Devon H. O'Dell writes: > And you bash all others who seem to think it might have other purposes. No, I believe in promoting the OS for the purposes to which it is best suited, instead of trying to promote it for the purposes to which some users are emotionally attached. Promoting it for the wrong purposes only disappoints people who are misled into using it for those purposes and discover that it doesn't suit their needs, and once they feel that way, they won't consider the OS for any other purpose, either, and they will tell others about their experience. -- Anthony From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 18:24:02 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7710416A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:24:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 137A543D2D for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:24:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.27.163 with login) by smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Feb 2005 18:24:01 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:24:01 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.2 References: <12810328452.20050218175406@wanadoo.fr> <200502181733.j1IHXkRF057650@grovel.grondar.org> <132078226.20050218190415@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <132078226.20050218190415@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200502181024.02201.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:24:02 -0000 On Friday 18 February 2005 10:04 am, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Mark Murray writes: > > Anthony Atkielski writes: > >> I advocate the use of FreeBSD for servers. > > > > Final warning. > > > > If you don't stop trolling this list, I will set a moderation bit > > on your posts. > > > > M > > -- > > Mark Murray > > iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH > > You forgot to copy your threat to the list, so I've done it for you. > > You also forgot to say what you really mean: the only type of > "advocacy" that you'll tolerate is agreement with your own opinions. Flaming the moderator: bad form. Posting private email to the list, from the moderator: digging your hole to China. > No, I believe in promoting the OS for the purposes to which it is > best suited, instead of trying to promote it for the purposes to > which some users are emotionally attached. The only person I see in this discussion who is emotionally attached to any particular usage of FreeBSD is you. - jt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 18:25:13 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6822D16A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:25:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq3.home.nl (smtpq3.home.nl [213.51.128.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 100D243D66 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:25:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@offmyserver.com) Received: from [213.51.128.135] (port=47539 helo=smtp4.home.nl) by smtpq3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D2CoS-0003IU-0h; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:25:12 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.72.18.239]:34171 helo=192.168.1.104) by smtp4.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1D2CoN-0005Xx-IL; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:25:07 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" To: Joshua Tinnin In-Reply-To: <200502181024.02201.krinklyfig@spymac.com> References: <12810328452.20050218175406@wanadoo.fr> <200502181733.j1IHXkRF057650@grovel.grondar.org> <132078226.20050218190415@wanadoo.fr> <200502181024.02201.krinklyfig@spymac.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Offmyserver, Inc. Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:25:06 +0100 Message-Id: <1108751106.4084.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM: Score 3.7: Re: Instead of freebsd. com, why not... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:25:13 -0000 > Flaming the moderator: bad form. Posting private email to the list, from > the moderator: digging your hole to China. > > > No, I believe in promoting the OS for the purposes to which it is > > best suited, instead of trying to promote it for the purposes to > > which some users are emotionally attached. > > The only person I see in this discussion who is emotionally attached to > any particular usage of FreeBSD is you. > > - jt Please, let's all end this thread right here. Thank you. --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 19:06:40 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B7416A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:06:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E416F43D3F for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:06:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20050218190638i9100k4gdae>; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:06:39 +0000 Message-ID: <42163CB6.7040807@nbritton.org> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:06:30 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Astrodog References: <200502152327.j1FNRBQL041297@fire.jhs.private> <4212F72B.2020201@nbritton.org> <2fd864e050217072412ef0b18@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2fd864e050217072412ef0b18@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Julian Stacey Subject: Re: Can FreeBSD Grow Large? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:06:40 -0000 Astrodog wrote: >On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:32:59 -0600, Nikolas Britton > wrote: > > >>Julian Stacey wrote: >> >> >> >>>Presumably that includes some who hold commit privs mainly for the >>>freebsd.org web site. >>> >>>It's tedious though, how much irrelevant hot air has been dumped >>>onto advocacy@ Re. logo preferences, considering we won't get to vote ! >>> - Apparently commiters will vote; Presumably advocacy@ will not. >>> - Commiters are on the commit list, & current@, >>> I guess just a low percentage of advocacy@ are committers. >>> - Most commiters will probably ignore advocacy@ when they vote. >>>Deduction: people with logo preferences should contact commiters >>>who will vote, not this advocacy@ list that likely includes few voters. >>> >>>Readers of advocacy@ have limited choices: >>> - Face reality, realise logo preference on advocacy@ is hot air, Or ... >>> - Do a load of send-pr's & be individually invited to be a commiter to >>> src/ ports/ doc/ or www/ who can vote, Or ... >>> - Agitate for votes for advocacy@ members (little chance I guess), Or ... >>> - Wait for commiters (who will ignore advocacy@) to choose Their logo, >>> then advocacy@ individuals can ignore or include logo on non >>> freebsd.org controlled BSD advocacy sites & events that advocacy@ >>> readers organise. >>> >>>Best skip the irrelevant logo debates where our views are Not wanted. >>>Best be more constructive, & discuss what we Can do: eg collecting >>>content for web sites to promote business adopting BSD etc. Harvesting >>>facts such as (paraphrasing) ... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Now that you got me thinking about it... There is no reason why a group >>of us (I'll help) couldn't fork the entire FreeBSD website, doc, etc. >>projects and redo or create everything thats needed for a better >>Image/PR etc. Then just point the download links to the freebsd servers. >>This way we can just side step all the bullshit and resistance where >>getting. We could then merge the projects when they finally see the >>light. If we really wanted to we could just rebrand the entire FreeBSD >>project, having are own core/committers of web designers, >>writes/editors, marketing and business people :-). >> >> > >I suspect that would not play really well with most FreeBSD users. > Thats the whole point ;-) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 18 23:32:36 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503D516A4CE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:32:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7735943D53 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:32:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:31:37 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200502180212.08316.aksis@idea-anvil.net> References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> <200502180212.08316.aksis@idea-anvil.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:32:31 +0100 To: aksis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:32:36 -0000 On Feb 18, 2005, at 10:12 AM, aksis wrote: > Something I was contemplating is that through out history there have > been many > "gatekeeper" systems that have been implemented to keep the masses at > bay. > > In history they have usually been some type of icon/gargoyle that > invoked fear > in people. For those who could conquer fear, they could pass the gate. > The > people who passed the gate were of a higher level of consciousness. > They were > the ones not governed by fear, the people who were willing to take > risks and > experiment etc... These are some important qualities for *any* kind of > development environment. When the time came, after the groups creation > had > been developed and was ready for the masses, the "gatekeeper" was > removed or > de-mystified and the masses could now have access to what they would > have > destroyed or broken due to lack of understanding or out of fear. > > I see that beastie could be serveing this purpose. I also see that if > FreeBSD, > as an OS, is intending to be released to the mases then it would be > wise to > get rid of a mascot that, for the majority of the world, is associated > with > evil and/or dis-service. [snip] > > If, however, FreeBSD is: still in its infancy stage; is not intended > for the > masses; is not yet ready for the masses, then such a gatekeeper system > would > be wise to keep in place. It keeps the ignorant/fearful masses at bay. > If the > masses are allowed in too soon, they will trip on/over the small > unfinished > details. [snip] Interesting perspective. Reading this made me question if I'm correct to advocate a redesigned and fresher look for freebsd.org. The current look with its default serif font, underlined links and current logo does serve the same kind of gatekeeper functionality - not just the BSD daemon. But this isn't a black and white issue - rather it is a question of fine tuning and lowering the gate to the level that is right for the FreeBSD project at the current time. > If the goal of making FreeBSD a widely used OS or even the #1 OS, then > it > isn't a question of if the mascot should be changed, but when, and to > what. Except that there is no reason why individual corporations/groups/organisations can't take the role of marketing FreeBSD to these general markets under their brands and with their specific added value and services. FreeBSD.org could keep the gatekeeper in place and concentrate on development while other organisations would operate out there in the "real world" and deal with the masses. /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 19 02:59:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2354416A4CE for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 02:59:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5DF643D1F for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 02:59:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so555731wra for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:59:02 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=kqg/SP12nT10gSznXDpnD7Pdx9JmxTcrn07F5CTJJkGAdEQE8KuaNx/tSsMXq9KUWNR0K3UKP/9X2g++pg/OcZ8ICUsLLj6zR/8LzAlNYEv/eSKN6EN6v/aw1+ggqGZ4KJNAOFDcIdYNYil+REKBWyCYfBfzbJnV3c2S1nnvOYg= Received: by 10.54.50.40 with SMTP id x40mr170492wrx; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.40.69 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:59:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2fd864e050218185946aa8ba2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:59:00 -0600 From: Astrodog To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: <42163CB6.7040807@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200502152327.j1FNRBQL041297@fire.jhs.private> <4212F72B.2020201@nbritton.org> <2fd864e050217072412ef0b18@mail.gmail.com> <42163CB6.7040807@nbritton.org> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Julian Stacey Subject: Re: Can FreeBSD Grow Large? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 02:59:03 -0000 On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:06:30 -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Astrodog wrote: > > >On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:32:59 -0600, Nikolas Britton > > wrote: > > > > > >>Julian Stacey wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Presumably that includes some who hold commit privs mainly for the > >>>freebsd.org web site. > >>> > >>>It's tedious though, how much irrelevant hot air has been dumped > >>>onto advocacy@ Re. logo preferences, considering we won't get to vote ! > >>> - Apparently commiters will vote; Presumably advocacy@ will not. > >>> - Commiters are on the commit list, & current@, > >>> I guess just a low percentage of advocacy@ are committers. > >>> - Most commiters will probably ignore advocacy@ when they vote. > >>>Deduction: people with logo preferences should contact commiters > >>>who will vote, not this advocacy@ list that likely includes few voters. > >>> > >>>Readers of advocacy@ have limited choices: > >>> - Face reality, realise logo preference on advocacy@ is hot air, Or ... > >>> - Do a load of send-pr's & be individually invited to be a commiter to > >>> src/ ports/ doc/ or www/ who can vote, Or ... > >>> - Agitate for votes for advocacy@ members (little chance I guess), Or ... > >>> - Wait for commiters (who will ignore advocacy@) to choose Their logo, > >>> then advocacy@ individuals can ignore or include logo on non > >>> freebsd.org controlled BSD advocacy sites & events that advocacy@ > >>> readers organise. > >>> > >>>Best skip the irrelevant logo debates where our views are Not wanted. > >>>Best be more constructive, & discuss what we Can do: eg collecting > >>>content for web sites to promote business adopting BSD etc. Harvesting > >>>facts such as (paraphrasing) ... > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>Now that you got me thinking about it... There is no reason why a group > >>of us (I'll help) couldn't fork the entire FreeBSD website, doc, etc. > >>projects and redo or create everything thats needed for a better > >>Image/PR etc. Then just point the download links to the freebsd servers. > >>This way we can just side step all the bullshit and resistance where > >>getting. We could then merge the projects when they finally see the > >>light. If we really wanted to we could just rebrand the entire FreeBSD > >>project, having are own core/committers of web designers, > >>writes/editors, marketing and business people :-). > >> > >> > > > >I suspect that would not play really well with most FreeBSD users. > > > > Thats the whole point ;-) > What is effectively a full fork, entirely for marketing purposes, without altering code, of a BSD-licensed product, seems like a good way to irritate developers too. I could run an s/FreeBSD/AstrodogBSD, release closed source, and be entirely within the license, however, I suspect that if I got any credit for my.... "Achievement", I'd have quite a few spurned developers, who wouldn't be real responsive to my PRs... not that I'd blame them. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 19 03:33:02 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B97F16A4CE for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:33:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4038C43D2D for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:33:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 2471 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2005 03:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 19 Feb 2005 03:32:56 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.109] ([210.24.246.133]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050219033256.TBS1207.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.109]>; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:32:56 +0800 Message-ID: <4216B3E9.6090801@pacific.net.sg> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:35:05 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Astrodog References: <200502152327.j1FNRBQL041297@fire.jhs.private> <4212F72B.2020201@nbritton.org> <2fd864e050217072412ef0b18@mail.gmail.com> <42163CB6.7040807@nbritton.org> <2fd864e050218185946aa8ba2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2fd864e050218185946aa8ba2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Julian Stacey Subject: Re: Can FreeBSD Grow Large? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:33:02 -0000 Hi, Astrodog wrote: > wrote: >>Astrodog wrote: >>> >>>I suspect that would not play really well with most FreeBSD users. >>> >> >>Thats the whole point ;-) >> > > > What is effectively a full fork, entirely for marketing purposes, > without altering code, of a BSD-licensed product, seems like a good > way to irritate developers too. I could run an s/FreeBSD/AstrodogBSD, > release closed source, and be entirely within the license, however, I > suspect that if I got any credit for my.... "Achievement", I'd have > quite a few spurned developers, who wouldn't be real responsive to my > PRs... not that I'd blame them. > How does Apple fit into this picture? Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 19 04:04:00 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED2116A4CE for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 04:04:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92.asp.att.net [63.240.76.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E3A43D49 for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 04:04:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc92.asp.att.net (sccimhc92) with ESMTP id <20050219040354i92004u6r3e>; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 04:03:59 +0000 Message-ID: <4216BAA2.7010805@nbritton.org> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:03:46 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050202) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Zumbrunn References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> <200502180212.08316.aksis@idea-anvil.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 04:04:00 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > On Feb 18, 2005, at 10:12 AM, aksis wrote: > >> Something I was contemplating is that through out history there have >> been many >> "gatekeeper" systems that have been implemented to keep the masses at >> bay. >> >> In history they have usually been some type of icon/gargoyle that >> invoked fear >> in people. For those who could conquer fear, they could pass the >> gate. The >> people who passed the gate were of a higher level of consciousness. >> They were >> the ones not governed by fear, the people who were willing to take >> risks and >> experiment etc... These are some important qualities for *any* kind of >> development environment. When the time came, after the groups >> creation had >> been developed and was ready for the masses, the "gatekeeper" was >> removed or >> de-mystified and the masses could now have access to what they would >> have >> destroyed or broken due to lack of understanding or out of fear. >> >> I see that beastie could be serveing this purpose. I also see that if >> FreeBSD, >> as an OS, is intending to be released to the mases then it would be >> wise to >> get rid of a mascot that, for the majority of the world, is >> associated with >> evil and/or dis-service. [snip] >> >> If, however, FreeBSD is: still in its infancy stage; is not intended >> for the >> masses; is not yet ready for the masses, then such a gatekeeper >> system would >> be wise to keep in place. It keeps the ignorant/fearful masses at >> bay. If the >> masses are allowed in too soon, they will trip on/over the small >> unfinished >> details. [snip] > > > Interesting perspective. Reading this made me question if I'm correct > to advocate a redesigned and fresher look for freebsd.org. The current > look with its default serif font, underlined links and current logo > does serve the same kind of gatekeeper functionality - not just the > BSD daemon. But this isn't a black and white issue - rather it is a > question of fine tuning and lowering the gate to the level that is > right for the FreeBSD project at the current time. The gatekeeper is UNIX and the only thing we stand to gain is those that have already walked through it. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 19 15:49:53 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36AF716A4CE for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:49:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8601943D5C for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:49:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id j1so75668rnf for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 07:49:51 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=f5EXONt0xPsfIFeEIX63Sl35tKpPFFZC38G4zJL4BvBWXnCQBbC2SBze8wmeeBgxszkbiemyyskH04LKWPO25VSuX6HRfIZithdJLVU7tzl25dbOJu4/wdIhAl6njz7pP2As320Ed3wGN2zxN3eX6yOGtpXBYJoV085avbjTnqY= Received: by 10.38.126.33 with SMTP id y33mr373518rnc; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 07:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.66.46 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 07:49:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:49:51 +0200 From: Sander Vesik To: Chris Zumbrunn In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20050213001621.59515.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> <200502180212.08316.aksis@idea-anvil.net> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:49:53 -0000 > Except that there is no reason why individual > corporations/groups/organisations can't take the role of marketing > FreeBSD to these general markets under their brands and with their > specific added value and services. FreeBSD.org could keep the > gatekeeper in place and concentrate on development while other > organisations would operate out there in the "real world" and deal with > the masses. Would it be FreeBSD then? Besides, we have already been there with the CD-ROM companies, haven't we? > > /czv >