From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 3 05:26:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A49A816A417 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 05:26:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from outN.internet-mail-service.net (outN.internet-mail-service.net [216.240.47.237]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A79A13C46A for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 05:26:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from mx0.idiom.com (HELO idiom.com) (216.240.32.160) by out.internet-mail-service.net (qpsmtpd/0.40) with ESMTP; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:26:14 -0800 Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6441270B2; Sat, 2 Feb 2008 21:26:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <47A55075.2090706@elischer.org> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:26:13 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <12080.1201985275@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <12080.1201985275@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: adding general purpose mtx+cv to kthread X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 05:26:15 -0000 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > The select(2) system call has a dirty little secret data structure > (struct seltd) which it hangs off the kthread (->td_sel), amongst > the reasons for this is to avoid a mtx_init() and cv_init() and associated > destroy calls with each call to select(2). > > I'm working on an enhancement to sendfile(2) that has the exact same > need for a mtx+cv combo and the question is how many other such > we have, once we get through the code. > > Various solutions present themselves, from swallowing the overhead > for sendfile(2) since it's probably delta anyway over sharing selects > data structure (safe for the locks, since both syscalls are stateless) > to what seems most sensible to me: > > Add a general purpose mtx+cv to struct kthread for use by syscalls > that need to keep track of things and sleep on stuff. > > This wouldn't make the seltd structure go away, it contains other > stuff as well, it would just eliminate the mtx+cv combo from it. > > Any comment or insights ? [...] void *td_syscal_priv; /* valid for duration of syscall only */ [...] seems a reasonably useful thing From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 3 09:33:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9740B16A41A for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 09:33:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5449413C45D for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 09:33:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A809646E07; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 04:33:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 09:33:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Maxim Zhuravlev In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080203093009.R28171@fledge.watson.org> References: <200801312135.48600.hselasky@c2i.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Hans Petter Selasky Subject: Re: [RFC] Some new generic device features. X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 09:33:29 -0000 On Fri, 1 Feb 2008, Maxim Zhuravlev wrote: > 2008/1/31, Hans Petter Selasky : > >> Some general comments: >> >> How does it handle mutexes? > > By now mutexes are used by io subsystem: All input/output requests (iors) > and queues of iors are guarded by spin mutexes. As for devices, their NewBus > sided structures will be guarded by (spin?) mutexes. Generic question: is it desirable/necessary to do this using [solely] spin mutexes? They are more expensive than regular mutexes (since they also disable interrupts), and are not generally necessary unless code is running under the scheduler or in a fast interrupt context. There are good reasons to write device driver code that runs in the fast interrupt context, but serious work (i.e., passing things up and down higher level stacks such as CAM, the network stack, ttys, etc) generally happens outside of that context. If some of this necessarily runs in those sensitive contexts, is it the case that it mostly does? Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 3 19:02:48 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8385116A417; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 19:02:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marcus@marcuscom.com) Received: from creme-brulee.marcuscom.com (marcuscom-pt.tunnel.tserv1.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:ffff::1279]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FCAC13C45A; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 19:02:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marcus@marcuscom.com) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:2464::4] (shumai.marcuscom.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:2464::4]) by creme-brulee.marcuscom.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m13J3DtQ025822; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 14:03:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marcus@marcuscom.com) From: Joe Marcus Clarke To: Andriy Gapon In-Reply-To: <479F1713.2030705@icyb.net.ua> References: <479F1713.2030705@icyb.net.ua> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-mhX7xp3CcfbY+Pug+38s" Organization: MarcusCom, Inc. Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:03:03 -0500 Message-Id: <1202065383.59813.40.camel@shumai.marcuscom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.2.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.4 (2008-01-01) on creme-brulee.marcuscom.com Cc: freebsd-gnome@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HAL/freebsd architecture X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 19:02:48 -0000 --=-mhX7xp3CcfbY+Pug+38s Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 14:07 +0200, Andriy Gapon wrote: > This is not a concrete suggestion and I can not volunteer to write any > code yet (unfortunately). >=20 > Recently I played a little bit with DesktopBSD live CD and liked some > add-on software provided there and some implementation approaches were > quite interesting for me too. >=20 > Just in case, the tools can be found in sysutils/desktopbsd-tools and > there is a FAQ page on using them in "plain" FreeBSD: > http://desktopbsd.net/wiki/doku.php?id=3Ddoc:desktopbsd_tools_in_freebsd >=20 > This got me thinking: maybe we could also apply the same approach as > used for dbsd-hwnotify to HAL/FreeBSD. I.e. hald could do initial > querying of devices and then just wait for notification from devd about > any changes. >=20 > This, of course, would require some changes to the base system, but I > think that these would be useful for many more applications than just hal= d. >=20 > Some things that come to mind first: "forward" instruction to devd.conf > to execute some action for all events in addition to any event-specific > actions. This is so that we could preserve current devd functionality > but also allow to delegate some decisions to other software. >=20 > I think that this way we could get a lot of current hald functionality > for free, without the special probing/polling routines that have to > written at present. > But this would probably mean some additional changes in kernel-land. For > example, there are complaints now that CD-ROM drivers do not > automatically notice media removal/change and, for instance, do not > update GEOM_LABEL information [*]. This is important for HAL > functionality too. So, media checking/polling would probably have to go > to the CD-ROM drivers. > But, as I said earlier, this would probably be a universal good - we > could kill several birds with one stone. >=20 > To summarize: most of what FreeBSD hald currently does in userland is > either already done in kernel as well or it better be done in kernel. > hald should just mostly listen to notifications coming from kernel. Most > likely this is best done via devd. Such approaches, of course, would > require changes to pieces of kernel and to devd. hald already listens to devd for as many events as it can. I agree that some information is better tracked in the kernel, but devd is not the right outlet for everything (we still need to build a device tree when hald starts). I have been poking a few kernel/driver developers to expose more information via sysctl as this is a safe way of obtaining hardware data without needing elevated privileges, or access the devices directly. Linux's hald backend relies heavily on sysfs, and ours on sysctl and devinfo. The more we can expose to these two interfaces, the better, and more robust hal will be on FreeBSD. Joe --=20 PGP Key : http://www.marcuscom.com/pgp.asc --=-mhX7xp3CcfbY+Pug+38s Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEABECAAYFAkemD+YACgkQb2iPiv4Uz4eeegCeK5t/lsFYDWmdmaSggDDuY9BV HIIAoK7mbyhMTmYzCxva5AxFC4k1DAiW =i3XZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-mhX7xp3CcfbY+Pug+38s-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 3 20:59:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA6116A417 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:59:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E9313C46A for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:59:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63ACD4D5D1 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2008 15:59:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:59:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: arch@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20080203205740.F51679@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Subject: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals (fwd) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 20:59:09 -0000 Only a few days after predicted, this is a reminder that IFF_NEEDSGIANT network drivers are going to stop working in the forseeable future. Please review the attached driver list, and if you depend on or care about a Giant-dependent device driver, take action to make sure it doesn't remain on the list in a month's time! (As far as I'm aware, the list has not changed since my December posting.) Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:43:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson To: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: 8.0 network stack MPsafety goals Dear all: With the 7.0 release around the corner, many developers are starting to think about (and in quite a few cases, work on) their goals for 8.0. One of our on-going kernel projects has been the elimination of the Giant lock, and that project has transformed into one of optimizating behavior on increasing numbers of processors. In 7.0, despite the noteworth accomplishment of eliminating debug.mpsasfenet and conditional network stack Gian acquisition, we were unable to fully eliminate the IFF_NEEDSGIANT flag, which controls the conditional acquisition of the Giant lock around non-MPSAFE network device drivers. Primarily these drivers are aging ISA network device drivers, although there are some exceptions, such as the USB stack. This e-mail proposes the elimination of the IFF_NEEDSGIANT flag and associated infrastructure in FreeBSD 8.0, meaning that all network device drivers must be able to operate without the Giant lock (largely the case already). Remaining drivers using the IFF_NEEDSGIANT flag must either be updated, or less ideally, removed. I propose the following schedule: Date Goals ---- ----- 26 Dec 2007 Post proposed schedule for flag and infrastructure removal Post affected driver list 26 Jan 2008 Repost proposed schedule for flag and infrastructure removal Post updated affected driver list 26 Feb 2008 Adjust boot-time printf for affect drivers to generate a loud warning. Post updated affected driver list 26 May 2008 Post HEADS UP of impending driver disabling Post updated affected driver list 26 Jun 2008 Disable build of all drivers requiring IFF_NEEDSGIANT Post updated affected driver list 26 Sep 2008 Post HEADS up of impending driver removal Post updated affected driver list 26 Oct 2008 Delete source of all drivers requiring IFF_NEEDSGIANT Remove flag and infrastructure Here is a list of potentially affected drivers: Name Bus Man page description --- --- -------------------- ar ISA/PCI synchronous Digi/Arnet device driver arl ISA Aironet Arlan 655 wireless network adapter driver awi PCCARD AMD PCnetMobile IEEE 802.11 PCMCIA wireless network driver axe USB ASIX Electronics AX88172 USB Ethernet driver cdce USB USB Communication Device Class Ethernet driver cnw PCCARD Netwave AirSurfer wireless network driver cs ISA/PCCARD Ethernet device driver cue USB CATC USB-EL1210A USB Ethernet driver ex ISA/PCCARD Ethernet device driver for the Intel EtherExpress Pro/10 and Pro/10+ fe CBUS/ISA/PCCARD Fujitsu MB86960A/MB86965A based Ethernet adapters ic I2C I2C bus system ie ISA Ethernet device driver kue USB Kawasaki LSI KL5KUSB101B USB Ethernet driver oltr ISA/PCI Olicom Token Ring device driver plip PPBUS printer port Internet Protocol driver ppp TTY point to point protocol network interface ray PCCARD Raytheon Raylink/Webgear Aviator PCCard driver rue USB RealTek RTL8150 USB to Fast Ethernet controller driver rum USB Ralink Technology USB IEEE 802.11a/b/g wireless network device sbni ISA/PCI Granch SBNI12 leased line modem driver sbsh PCI Granch SBNI16 SHDSL modem device driver sl TTY slip network interface snc ISA/PCCARD National Semiconductor DP8393X SONIC Ethernet adapter driver sr ISA/PCI synchronous RISCom/N2 / WANic 400/405 device driver udav USB Davicom DM9601 USB Ethernet driver ural USB Ralink Technology RT2500USB IEEE 802.11 driver xe PCCARD Xircom PCMCIA Ethernet device driver zyd USB ZyDAS ZD1211/ZD1211B USB IEEE 802.11b/g wireless network device In some cases, the requirement for Giant is a property of a subsystem the driver depends on as the driver itself; for example, the tty subsystem for SLIP and PPP, and the USB subsystem for a number of USB ethernet and wireless drivers. With most of a year before to go on the proposed schedule, my hope is that we will have lots of time to address these issues, but wanted to get a roadmap out from a network protocol stack architecture perspective so that device driver and subsystem authors could have a schedule in mind. FYI, the following drivers also reference IFF_NEEDSGIANT, but only in order to provide their own conditional MPSAFEty, which can be removed without affecting device driver functionality (I believe): Name Bus Man page description --- --- -------------------- ce PCI driver for synchronous Cronyx Tau-PCI/32 WAN adapters cp PCI driver for synchronous Cronyx Tau-PCI WAN adapters ctau ISA driver for synchronous Cronyx Tau WAN adapters cx ISA driver for synchronous/asynchronous Cronyx Sigma WAN adapters Developers and users of the above drivers are heavily encouraged to update the drivers to remove dependence on Giant, and/or make other contingency plans. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge _______________________________________________ freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 01:00:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5506F16A41A for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 01:00:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF99113C448 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 01:00:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b2so933977nfb.33 for ; Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:00:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:x-google-sender-auth; bh=A47Uzlr5w+3geNFR1JT+VmEw8eh24ejzk93ik7cQqcs=; b=XPZGm3pen+bzBFkBB0infwkNZXh1IwznrKfpsTqAL47ZTcBUgUIa7Ot+UPWcFRIoqdjBkXXe0Lm4IwZ1ml2kHsBPdggp1yYK9wpvHUL3WadOefCoVYpgGEVd2LqITWyihY5D1QXzjS24JixlRjfH/MkqrRpENx3lsxeCHBRgOI8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:x-google-sender-auth; b=uVzsTBmN6hZ+divyO3Yg7SeGVc/wBKMFtkersXhGALgqj+KqUf+jl2urysk3T1yUmN5RkvLfOGTFq1YW8BxSyOK+SKICMfFhMIlOLneQfzSsU+OlOVIO07n+4C/1RgTBFN4OjvAVdl/VpV+vZyQZYZm7TdtcO/iBjQR38AKY8rQ= Received: by 10.86.100.7 with SMTP id x7mr9799786fgb.10.1202346041497; Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.28.19 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Feb 2008 17:00:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 02:00:41 +0100 From: "Attilio Rao" Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-fs@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Google-Sender-Auth: f21f19ae39864046 Cc: Scot Hetzel , Jeff Roberson , Doug Barton , Yar Tikhiy Subject: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 01:00:43 -0000 As exposed by several users, NTFS seems to be broken even before first VFS commits happeing around the end of December. Those commits exposed some problems about NTFS which are currently under investigation. Ultimately, This filesystem is also unmaintained at the moment. Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE implementation. What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us about what do you think about this idea and its implications: - Do you use NTFS? - Are you interested in maintaining it? - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What the kernel counter part adds? - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? Thanks, Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 01:32:04 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41AA616A41B; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 01:32:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.delphij.net (delphij-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:2c9::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEA1313C448; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 01:32:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from delphij@delphij.net) Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org (unknown [202.108.54.204]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.delphij.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA90D28448; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:32:02 +0800 (CST) Received: from localhost (unknown [202.108.54.204]) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91757EC3651; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:32:02 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at geekcn.org Received: from tarsier.geekcn.org ([202.108.54.204]) by localhost (mail.geekcn.org [202.108.54.204]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SW30hY5-j3HC; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:31:57 +0800 (CST) Received: from charlie.delphij.net (71.5.7.139.ptr.us.xo.net [71.5.7.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tarsier.geekcn.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC641EC3609; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:31:55 +0800 (CST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=default; d=delphij.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:organization:user-agent: mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to: x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mAbi3wCRgKz9I3tp9XRZvxY0jiy+k0MHkIpJmzS2vuSVN1qBgFXEzLxm3QiYGW7e4 YK+grpS8VWNDo4qYlRHOw== Message-ID: <47AA5F87.6040905@delphij.net> Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:31:51 -0800 From: Xin LI Organization: The FreeBSD Project User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080122) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Attilio Rao References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=18EDEBA0; url=http://www.delphij.net/delphij.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: d@delphij.net List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 01:32:04 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Attilio Rao wrote: > As exposed by several users, NTFS seems to be broken even before first > VFS commits happeing around the end of December. Those commits exposed > some problems about NTFS which are currently under investigation. > Ultimately, This filesystem is also unmaintained at the moment. > > Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: > remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE > implementation. > What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us > about what do you think about this idea and its implications: > - Do you use NTFS? I use it occasionally when I need to copy files from the Windows partition. > - Are you interested in maintaining it? No. > - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What > the kernel counter part adds? No, the only reason come to mind is that one don't need to install separately, and thus might be good if you run -CURRENT. > - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? If nobody would maintain it, as long as the FUSE NTFS implementation is usable I think it's a good idea to axe it in 8.0. Cheers, - -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHql+Hi+vbBBjt66ARAg0bAJ4lsJRyQrRGayvskC41dMCwDuwCfACffhca BcYVAWhFBciKHIeEYWmDSi0= =YhRg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 02:32:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8477216A41B; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 02:32:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ganbold@micom.mng.net) Received: from publicd.ub.mng.net (publicd.ub.mng.net [202.179.0.88]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2702413C457; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 02:32:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ganbold@micom.mng.net) Received: from [202.179.0.164] (helo=daemon.micom.mng.net) by publicd.ub.mng.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1JMvq2-000KBi-2A; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:46:06 +0800 Message-ID: <47AA62DD.5050704@micom.mng.net> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:46:05 +0800 From: Ganbold User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071225) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Attilio Rao References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:32:12 -0000 Attilio Rao wrote: > As exposed by several users, NTFS seems to be broken even before first > VFS commits happeing around the end of December. Those commits exposed > some problems about NTFS which are currently under investigation. > Ultimately, This filesystem is also unmaintained at the moment. > > Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: > remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE > implementation. > What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us > about what do you think about this idea and its implications: > - Do you use NTFS? > Yes, I have external NTFS USB hard drive and from time to time I need to copy some files, delete etc. > - Are you interested in maintaining it? > - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? FUSE implementation allows to write to NTFS partition, so it is really useful. However either fusefs-ntfs related stuff or kernel itself seems like buggy, I'm having fatal trap/crash when I try to mount NTFS partition in FreeBSD-7.0-PRERELEASE. > What > the kernel counter part adds? > - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? > Maybe, since there is already a port fusefs-ntfs. Ganbold > Thanks, > Attilio > > > -- Alex Haley was adopted! From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 03:29:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624D216A46C; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 03:29:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Received: from daisy2.compar.com (mail1.compar.com [216.208.38.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D1D713C459; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 03:29:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost.compar.com [127.0.0.1]) by daisy2.compar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844BE13C48A; Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:10:05 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at compar.com Received: from unknown by localhost (amavisd-new, unix socket) id qyheHgjwNJDC; Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:10:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from hermes (CPE00062566c7bb-CM001ac3584898.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [99.236.43.116]) by daisy2.compar.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CB1413C488; Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:10:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002901c86936$eeb3cb50$1200a8c0@hermes> From: "Matt Emmerton" To: "Attilio Rao" , , References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:10:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Cc: Jeff Roberson , Scot Hetzel , Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 03:29:06 -0000 > Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: > remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE > implementation. > What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us > about what do you think about this idea and its implications: > - Do you use NTFS? Sometimes. > - Are you interested in maintaining it? Nope. > - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What > the kernel counter part adds? FUSE would be fine by me. I didn't realize FUSE was available on FreeBSD -- in the past I typically booted with a Knoppix livecd and then tar over netcat to get files back to my BSD machines. I'll use FUSE on FreeBSD from now on. > - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? Yep. -- Matt Emmerton From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 07:00:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9F116A468 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 07:00:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx24.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FFE313C47E for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 07:00:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 5473 invoked by uid 399); 7 Feb 2008 06:33:35 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.0.4?) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTP; 7 Feb 2008 06:33:35 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 Message-ID: <47AAA63C.4040504@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:33:32 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Attilio Rao References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Jeff Roberson , Scot Hetzel , Yar Tikhiy , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 07:00:16 -0000 Attilio Rao wrote: > As exposed by several users, NTFS seems to be broken even before first > VFS commits happeing around the end of December. Those commits exposed > some problems about NTFS which are currently under investigation. > Ultimately, This filesystem is also unmaintained at the moment. > > Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: > remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE > implementation. > What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us > about what do you think about this idea and its implications: > - Do you use NTFS? When it works, yes, I use it often. > - Are you interested in maintaining it? EOVERMYHEAD > - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What > the kernel counter part adds? Two, first I prefer to eat our own dog food, and I rarely need to write to the NTFS partition (although it does sometimes come in handy). And second the last time I tried to use it in -current it panicked too, but that was some time ago. > - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? I think we should do it right, or not do it in the base. We should have _one_ working implementation, if that is FUSE then that's fine with me. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 07:13:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D5516A418; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 07:13:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7295C13C461; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 07:13:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 6408B1A4D83; Wed, 6 Feb 2008 23:13:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 23:13:14 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Attilio Rao Message-ID: <20080207071314.GO99258@elvis.mu.org> References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 07:13:14 -0000 * Attilio Rao [080206 17:00] wrote: > As exposed by several users, NTFS seems to be broken even before first > VFS commits happeing around the end of December. Those commits exposed > some problems about NTFS which are currently under investigation. > Ultimately, This filesystem is also unmaintained at the moment. > > Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: > remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE > implementation. > What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us > about what do you think about this idea and its implications: > - Do you use NTFS? > - Are you interested in maintaining it? > - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What > the kernel counter part adds? > - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? My pragmatic view on this is that I think it's odd that something that is sort-of working for a few people is going to be axed by people that don't use it, while promising to replace it with something better. Maybe a nicer way of saying/asking would be to ask: Is the FUSE replacement going to be tested to the point where it's better than then current NTFS code? thanks, -- - Alfred Perlstein From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 08:19:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C2B16A46D for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 08:19:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx24.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A3E8D13C4D1 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 08:19:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 7941 invoked by uid 399); 7 Feb 2008 08:18:59 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.0.4?) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTP; 7 Feb 2008 08:18:59 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 Message-ID: <47AABEEF.7020807@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 00:18:55 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <20080207071314.GO99258@elvis.mu.org> In-Reply-To: <20080207071314.GO99258@elvis.mu.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Yar Tikhiy , Scot Hetzel , Jeff Roberson , Attilio Rao , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:19:01 -0000 Alfred Perlstein wrote: > Maybe a nicer way of saying/asking would be to ask: > > Is the FUSE replacement going to be tested to the point where it's > better than then current NTFS code? Given that the current NTFS code in the base panics within minutes of any kind of serious access, and has the ability to take the other filesystems down with it (including UFS2) that won't be hard. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 10:03:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DE516A46B for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 10:03:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from uspoerlein@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.184]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94FFD13C47E for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 10:03:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from uspoerlein@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b2so973866nfb.33 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:02:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=P+7NVKuyU+V5cHtPwPm/xKOJXFlCNysV2DUt9RaHey4=; b=WEIN3woWnebbZ7pgLN7Cgew49vqHhjiY/CCqRXxCu4I1XWNYjbjzWKPTIh3u9R6ZIROm4ifgD6VHHQVk4uR5arenN3Y2eCQlX2DkdaeP8LwTwFV1nbKibM7NdDQCIp/egin6Lj8xk+ngsrBeMypltkwvsPtQYxe+q6QoCNJdtEE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ESbzGUYNXq+AouEOCMRWKn9gu/Zy1adtQ5O2Bab0YvxUxcIt5M4oNTpR83J6kCXJuFJ/hUwnniuR1aKYxab+QJX92zlX/d/uUtQoOI/G+aTzeJnXcBpU1S9YIN60jN5lS81pGDtjg9MudvC8Zcd2tJYVupTTdT6tTduGTkzQnf0= Received: by 10.78.204.7 with SMTP id b7mr19658321hug.74.1202376934099; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 01:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.173.4 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 01:35:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <7ad7ddd90802070135y6eeaded6lcffc6b5751ee5c40@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 10:35:34 +0100 From: "Ulrich Spoerlein" To: "Doug Barton" In-Reply-To: <47AABEEF.7020807@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <20080207071314.GO99258@elvis.mu.org> <47AABEEF.7020807@FreeBSD.org> Cc: Attilio Rao , Yar Tikhiy , Scot Hetzel , Jeff Roberson , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:03:01 -0000 On Feb 7, 2008 9:18 AM, Doug Barton wrote: > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > Maybe a nicer way of saying/asking would be to ask: > > > > Is the FUSE replacement going to be tested to the point where it's > > better than then current NTFS code? > > Given that the current NTFS code in the base panics within minutes of > any kind of serious access, and has the ability to take the other > filesystems down with it (including UFS2) that won't be hard. Please keep in mind, that the current FUSE port to FreeBSD is lagging behind and I can reproducibly panic -CURRENT using fuse-ntfs, too. Nevertheless, I think FUSE is the way to go. Perhaps someone could port the NetBSD interface for it to FreeBSD, so we can ship a kernel with FUSE preinstalled (sans GPL). Cheers, Uli From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 10:41:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B54DD16A46E for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 10:41:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.154]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4E513C467 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 10:41:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so2789788fgg.35 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:41:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=C94noNvwVnXJtnnhMt2sdcAc6/kOXcq58DrlyTom694=; b=NUgyHORW3gt3bVUOeHAeAJ959DOt8SmxOxlLwjo1BQbw4+VB6CDrXtN1wTPzj38rUddpM6fVe2dqE4l4Ls5CMGUV6jJxmw+hDj8PvCbJivTZqoiFzqpIoh3Owvy0FBmsWnxdIp6coJEta8rdkk/NfQz9/+VSrM2yph8ipJ53DwM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=g2quMsB2JY/Lc1Mp7CcK0qx4aKoKowZRlC3k2LubqOWC/PTmF0U+f+7SU66GJM1XgelyRnDcJ0ZolpLJsttiWXNcLsvIfckSfxyc/4fsH0zP3xznKHSNjQqasWLuk/2fpNdVM7sWjb17s+TMSqL3HiOcrfz9z6lPKs2BP/QzYsQ= Received: by 10.86.77.5 with SMTP id z5mr10245974fga.41.1202380911665; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:41:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.28.19 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 02:41:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3bbf2fe10802070241m6026ad63w78788d83acb48a8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:41:51 +0100 From: "Attilio Rao" Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com To: "Alfred Perlstein" In-Reply-To: <20080207071314.GO99258@elvis.mu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <20080207071314.GO99258@elvis.mu.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2ad8ee6dd56e829c Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:41:53 -0000 2008/2/7, Alfred Perlstein : > * Attilio Rao [080206 17:00] wrote: > > As exposed by several users, NTFS seems to be broken even before first > > VFS commits happeing around the end of December. Those commits exposed > > some problems about NTFS which are currently under investigation. > > Ultimately, This filesystem is also unmaintained at the moment. > > > > Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: > > remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE > > implementation. > > What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us > > about what do you think about this idea and its implications: > > - Do you use NTFS? > > - Are you interested in maintaining it? > > - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What > > the kernel counter part adds? > > - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? > > > My pragmatic view on this is that I think it's odd that something > that is sort-of working for a few people is going to be axed by > people that don't use it, while promising to replace it with something > better. > > Maybe a nicer way of saying/asking would be to ask: > > Is the FUSE replacement going to be tested to the point where it's > better than then current NTFS code? It is possible for you to reply without a flammable answer to any question? In particular in this case where it is just a polling... Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 11:46:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F8FE16A419 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:46:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9770313C467 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:46:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b2so991023nfb.33 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 03:46:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=OtxQQ+/UWwyOnNk8u0zbPULQr+jma0JIdwIkhAFc4u8=; b=Pvf3LXW1qWzbytvD42zmzviF8MT8NVWW5jFCNtArAvs2cOSQrRbrHv+ysxP01bZSq6ZMo+yC3MK5ysSqEfMY9jUJ+hd1pXe5qizMf4zdt5E8H1EfMhrcSXbROH81NNhgdcMqUtKYYwOc6d0ZJmB215rtt/hVvcnGnIkODHVvbs8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bbwMgCIKEETjZ0WNygdtUsUOFHEXx53lIkU90B+wMz3IDFj8hkyfTFWyYYQMP0MCtvAEvlayZnpKAYNblylXowL0akAVpZTXdrre40tnyCdjibGSqGr3D+k2OZQCuJ4YQvOuJjOzywuoPICavE+in8mVdcZZl+WI1UcSFIqKVPI= Received: by 10.78.172.20 with SMTP id u20mr19923628hue.13.1202383294236; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 03:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.189.6 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 03:21:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <70e8236f0802070321n9097d3fy1b39f637b3c2a06@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:21:34 +0000 From: "Joao Barros" To: "Attilio Rao" In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 11:46:56 -0000 On Feb 7, 2008 1:00 AM, Attilio Rao wrote: > As exposed by several users, NTFS seems to be broken even before first > VFS commits happeing around the end of December. Those commits exposed > some problems about NTFS which are currently under investigation. > Ultimately, This filesystem is also unmaintained at the moment. > > Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: > remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE > implementation. > What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us > about what do you think about this idea and its implications: > - Do you use NTFS? Yes. Important in a dual booting enviroment. > - Are you interested in maintaining it? I would If I had the needed knowledge in FS and Kernel. I only have availability to offer. > - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What > the kernel counter part adds? Yes: Speed. A year ago when building my zfs box I had to migrate 500GB of data off NTFS. FUSE ntfs is WAY slow. I didn't do a proper benchmark then but I could setup something now if interest arises. I didn't have any problems like those being reported with CURRENT from April 2007 if I recall the date correctly when I copied all that data. > - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? Yes if... Yes if FUSE ntfs can have performance on par with the current ntfs support. Yes if FUSE ntfs license model doesn't become an issue. Yes because FUSE ntfs write support is neat =) -- Joao Barros From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 13:06:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0F4916A418; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 13:06:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Received: from ns.trinitel.com (186.161.36.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com [72.36.161.186]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977C013C4DB; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 13:06:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Received: from proton.storspeed.com (209-163-168-124.static.tenantsolutions.com [209.163.168.124] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by ns.trinitel.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m17Clfm9082473; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 06:47:42 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 06:47:41 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Attilio Rao References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on ns.trinitel.com Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 13:06:50 -0000 Attilio Rao wrote: > As exposed by several users, NTFS seems to be broken even before first > VFS commits happeing around the end of December. Those commits exposed > some problems about NTFS which are currently under investigation. > Ultimately, This filesystem is also unmaintained at the moment. > > Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: > remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE > implementation. > What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us > about what do you think about this idea and its implications: > - Do you use NTFS? Yes, however not often, but when I do use it, I need it in the base OS really. > - Are you interested in maintaining it? Possibly. I would really need to look into it a bit more. > - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What > the kernel counter part adds? FUSE is slow, requires a port (unless PUFFS is ported, which I've probed about before). > - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying 'keep it!'? Personally, I much prefer having it in the base. Eric From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 13:20:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A282A16A41A for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 13:20:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andre@freebsd.org) Received: from c00l3r.networx.ch (c00l3r.networx.ch [62.48.2.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF93C13C461 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 13:20:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andre@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 88078 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2008 12:39:01 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO [127.0.0.1]) ([127.0.0.1]) (envelope-sender ) by c00l3r.networx.ch (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 7 Feb 2008 12:39:01 -0000 Message-ID: <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 14:20:33 +0100 From: Andre Oppermann User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14 (Windows/20071210) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Anderson References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , Attilio Rao , Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 13:20:24 -0000 Eric Anderson wrote: > I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that > don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying > 'keep it!'? The real question is how many people does it take to say 'I'll maintain it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as evidenced by Attilios question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious because WITNESS didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. -- Andre From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 14:13:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB0916A474 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:13:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.153]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A5B13C46B for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:13:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so2815780fgg.35 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 06:13:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=3UN7cZ/LHrPUmp1cnztgkuaME35GdS2Z2TYVkFtdCDw=; b=dPUe6xdXnUO6kU89IrceUOnLgtbtuJL9Mg02CSYK7IbQOOHvKzOXZRVcHyabbLPqpFlbRVI/w8K33E32FOe6WD0iacnM8RHiqAWEZVwwVaZd45WYkGA5Cgjp1kFudJbzWkol4oyJ+9aABZbGqNb7jDBcQvgbdQ8oJaLG4Q3bM8k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ELdGt3Ke23Vi9NvEosCNT7O1zZfhL8lVqKEXKjYNrjlBMQ2mVV/ggQceFWeJJkY3NcZDnCT8AKHyuktuy686cjbwNYdoUIYxE31q7IQKbqr1GtFZ0ExTc20WSEngZ0IFarwY/zTJC3JkSimKwBK2QC5vriHj7zBL2+mZDuseesE= Received: by 10.86.77.5 with SMTP id z5mr10450631fga.41.1202393628793; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 06:13:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.28.19 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 06:13:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3bbf2fe10802070613mf2bf3feg5dcb480501fcfbbc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:13:48 +0100 From: "Attilio Rao" Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com To: "Andre Oppermann" In-Reply-To: <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9197a749fbe5dc62 Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Scot Hetzel , Jeff Roberson , Eric Anderson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 14:13:50 -0000 2008/2/7, Andre Oppermann : > Eric Anderson wrote: > > I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that > > don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying > > 'keep it!'? > > The real question is how many people does it take to say 'I'll maintain > it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as evidenced by Attilios > question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious because WITNESS > didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. Andre catched exactly my point. The big problem is that we have a list of several unmaintained fs. NTFS is in this list. The support is not reliable, it is only available in read mode and eventually bugged. I'm not sure I want to keep this if nobody wants to maintain it. Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 14:18:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DB5616A41B; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:18:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 140E513C465; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:18:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 063421A4D7E; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 06:18:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 06:18:20 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Attilio Rao Message-ID: <20080207141820.GR99258@elvis.mu.org> References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> <3bbf2fe10802070613mf2bf3feg5dcb480501fcfbbc@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802070613mf2bf3feg5dcb480501fcfbbc@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Scot Hetzel , Andre Oppermann , Jeff Roberson , Eric Anderson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 14:18:21 -0000 * Attilio Rao [080207 06:13] wrote: > 2008/2/7, Andre Oppermann : > > Eric Anderson wrote: > > > I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that > > > don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying > > > 'keep it!'? > > > > The real question is how many people does it take to say 'I'll maintain > > it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as evidenced by Attilios > > question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious because WITNESS > > didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. > > Andre catched exactly my point. > The big problem is that we have a list of several unmaintained fs. > NTFS is in this list. The support is not reliable, it is only > available in read mode and eventually bugged. > I'm not sure I want to keep this if nobody wants to maintain it. All I'm saying is that I think this is a bit premature considering the users. Within less than 24hrs we've had a few users reporting in as users, I'm sure the fixes (now that we have some good assertions) are going to be trivial. Why not let it ferment/rot for a release cycle and then see what the story is? thanks, -- - Alfred Perlstein From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 14:21:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864FA16A479 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:21:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.186]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0379813C4F6 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:21:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b2so1019754nfb.33 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 06:21:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=FK33ihQ08EWI7RTYsGilBvE8HTNip5xxyypZ/4YWWys=; b=EENBQwb7Q1L4uKqCQXvhqsQ3I29R49T3Msf8zOJHyFFdxFYYsb0FrxveDj3G968bPzEPQglWwhoYMs/W7bCmRzVHL/2N9lMfPiguhGgfux9exa9Fao1xeeqD08jkIjTClySQddyf3zByZgxYNo1Y1/5Z/aPKO5vQ8UOdSMn4EWo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=rE1r151PzV6+qr/TKRe5EXaqbWH6MV5nOtV+ADLLoT48ZCbv+HtjJ8HIRDxHddI3pFXHXHz38gJ4KL1MQfequCSAZwQSipX4wiuMdGyXyZsIL1+FNntVGZbTpHu4e8wQoM8TX/2NGvJvd0MiW7ZKqygYKs8/uBYUFh+XW82B2wk= Received: by 10.82.118.2 with SMTP id q2mr20602538buc.23.1202394064508; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 06:21:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.28.19 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 06:21:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:21:04 +0100 From: "Attilio Rao" Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com To: "Alfred Perlstein" In-Reply-To: <20080207141820.GR99258@elvis.mu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> <3bbf2fe10802070613mf2bf3feg5dcb480501fcfbbc@mail.gmail.com> <20080207141820.GR99258@elvis.mu.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5062320f97659437 Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Scot Hetzel , Andre Oppermann , Jeff Roberson , Eric Anderson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 14:21:09 -0000 2008/2/7, Alfred Perlstein : > * Attilio Rao [080207 06:13] wrote: > > 2008/2/7, Andre Oppermann : > > > Eric Anderson wrote: > > > > I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that > > > > don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying > > > > 'keep it!'? > > > > > > The real question is how many people does it take to say 'I'll maintain > > > it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as evidenced by Attilios > > > question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious because WITNESS > > > didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. > > > > Andre catched exactly my point. > > The big problem is that we have a list of several unmaintained fs. > > NTFS is in this list. The support is not reliable, it is only > > available in read mode and eventually bugged. > > I'm not sure I want to keep this if nobody wants to maintain it. > > All I'm saying is that I think this is a bit premature considering > the users. Within less than 24hrs we've had a few users reporting > in as users, I'm sure the fixes (now that we have some good assertions) > are going to be trivial. > > Why not let it ferment/rot for a release cycle and then see what > the story is? Obviously if we can fix it is better, but axing is an opportunity I don't want to leave out and this is why I wanted to poll users about this issue. Eventually, if an axing is decided, it won't happen in short times but only once all situations for "migration" will be probed and finished. Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 14:36:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 406E416A420 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:36:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.191]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A59BB13C45D for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:36:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b2so1023275nfb.33 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 06:36:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=Z+jmF5ddDFls1a4sUKcu/UX5JmSgII2Q2ZzKpt2rIDA=; b=D1UPK+MkSLUSlT8/BJoMnhFmmna9Ngn5Qop6PtXLZemiTqWuoR4WNJzcVZzOcgtV9HyGu1SYCRSA2i4mWIXjMAl5JfP7SK/1AWSRCAwV7gtukqGkfk+lZTSmWbgyTpHzfP/UXTJXcm6kmpEHN6oYCS7zrDz9Vq2DGHMXnA1n7Pk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=a5awSB7MmSE0jsgInUup9ozJy7ONNeyvFmbj+n8mJ3Ojl5U7e3j2EpATXN8NxFqQvJz4u05ByO7zSeC/5nDgY+rexT5Xim54bTgOVQwDgX7oS8+JTATFD3DObRS5RUqKUrdbw09eLUYvRKjo070gETCt90cLfhzRAiZZLNMLptU= Received: by 10.78.149.15 with SMTP id w15mr20277100hud.72.1202394983656; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 06:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.189.6 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 06:36:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <70e8236f0802070636p1af7495fi8b7e6b07129843c3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:36:23 +0000 From: "Joao Barros" To: "Attilio Rao" In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> <3bbf2fe10802070613mf2bf3feg5dcb480501fcfbbc@mail.gmail.com> <20080207141820.GR99258@elvis.mu.org> <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Scot Hetzel , Andre Oppermann , Jeff Roberson , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 14:36:27 -0000 On Feb 7, 2008 2:21 PM, Attilio Rao wrote: > 2008/2/7, Alfred Perlstein : > > * Attilio Rao [080207 06:13] wrote: > > > 2008/2/7, Andre Oppermann : > > > > Eric Anderson wrote: > > > > > I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that > > > > > don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying > > > > > 'keep it!'? > > > > > > > > The real question is how many people does it take to say 'I'll maintain > > > > it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as evidenced by Attilios > > > > question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious because WITNESS > > > > didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. > > > > > > Andre catched exactly my point. > > > The big problem is that we have a list of several unmaintained fs. > > > NTFS is in this list. The support is not reliable, it is only > > > available in read mode and eventually bugged. > > > I'm not sure I want to keep this if nobody wants to maintain it. > > > > All I'm saying is that I think this is a bit premature considering > > the users. Within less than 24hrs we've had a few users reporting > > in as users, I'm sure the fixes (now that we have some good assertions) > > are going to be trivial. > > > > Why not let it ferment/rot for a release cycle and then see what > > the story is? > > Obviously if we can fix it is better, but axing is an opportunity I > don't want to leave out and this is why I wanted to poll users about > this issue. Eventually, if an axing is decided, it won't happen in > short times but only once all situations for "migration" will be > probed and finished. > > Attilio I read (I think on ntfs-3g website) that one of the developers was working for Apple specifically to fully support NTFS on OSX. If this is to be true, Apple willing to give this code to FreeBSD, would make it another interesting solution IMHO. -- Joao Barros From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 14:51:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3814616A418; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:51:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: from comp.chem.msu.su (comp.chem.msu.su [158.250.32.97]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F72D13C455; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:51:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: from comp.chem.msu.su (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by comp.chem.msu.su (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m17EpnFp016500; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:51:49 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: (from yar@localhost) by comp.chem.msu.su (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id m17Epnp7016499; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:51:49 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from yar) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:51:48 +0300 From: Yar Tikhiy To: Joao Barros Message-ID: <20080207145148.GL7592@comp.chem.msu.su> References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> <3bbf2fe10802070613mf2bf3feg5dcb480501fcfbbc@mail.gmail.com> <20080207141820.GR99258@elvis.mu.org> <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> <70e8236f0802070636p1af7495fi8b7e6b07129843c3@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <70e8236f0802070636p1af7495fi8b7e6b07129843c3@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Scot Hetzel , Andre Oppermann , Jeff Roberson , Alfred Perlstein , Attilio Rao , Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 14:51:54 -0000 On Thu, Feb 07, 2008 at 02:36:23PM +0000, Joao Barros wrote: > > I read (I think on ntfs-3g website) that one of the developers was > working for Apple specifically to fully support NTFS on OSX. If this > is to be true, Apple willing to give this code to FreeBSD, would make > it another interesting solution IMHO. But NTFS-3G is FUSE-based. OTOH, Mac OS X has a native read-only NTFS driver apparently inherited from FreeBSD. Unfortunately there isn't much for the two projects to share in this area: Just reading from NTFS is almost trivial, and the rest is system-specific VFS stuff. -- Yar From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 14:56:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A1D16A417; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:56:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: from comp.chem.msu.su (comp.chem.msu.su [158.250.32.97]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D1913C45B; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:56:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: from comp.chem.msu.su (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by comp.chem.msu.su (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m17ESUee015906; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:28:30 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: (from yar@localhost) by comp.chem.msu.su (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id m17ESUlS015899; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:28:30 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from yar) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:28:29 +0300 From: Yar Tikhiy To: Andre Oppermann Message-ID: <20080207142829.GK7592@comp.chem.msu.su> References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , Eric Anderson , Attilio Rao , Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 14:56:37 -0000 On Thu, Feb 07, 2008 at 02:20:33PM +0100, Andre Oppermann wrote: > Eric Anderson wrote: > >I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that > >don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying > >'keep it!'? > > The real question is how many people does it take to say 'I'll maintain > it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as evidenced by Attilios > question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious because WITNESS > didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. Yeah, uncared-for code dies, rots, and stinks, but I doubt whether the NTFS driver has died, or it is just ill [1]. :-) Being a rather simple, read-only FS driver, it should have fairly good separation between its lower layer, dealing with NTFS internals, and its upper layer, hooking the FS up to our VFS framework. Now the problem seems to be concentrated in the latter, so the layer should just be brought in accord with today's VFS locking semantics. This is a job I hope I can carry out if provided with brief details on what's wrong with NTFS now -- Attilio said he had been investigating the NTFS issues already. [1] I can't help recalling Scene 2, "Bring out your dead," from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" here. -- Yar From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 15:08:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3A7A16A41B for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:08:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: from ik-out-1112.google.com (ik-out-1112.google.com [66.249.90.176]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554F313C4F4 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:08:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tevans.uk@googlemail.com) Received: by ik-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id c21so613177ika.3 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 07:08:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=JIO/5gn+BpAVpXYc0h7Qa9aerl7vX+5FIjw7oiRUR4I=; b=E+sqAD/sg6ltDafDM53Kw0e9BeyLqZmJPLhZj29dkcob7UecgM0/mA3tQsC155mIwfSM0jV6kp2PKdBUQojPvc3xjExZv3eAFO+w/VFz4euXvin0OB+AHsYcoPUTyzI+rs++dZcRy4QikFAjS8qmC5ye8gIN/dtl7ZfSRK4yc+M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer; b=AaQqxZwYEJ0GEkRnMlvqmVnlyP4cfHsTDj1rSv7LNTLj14ArrQyf3FeFRMQeqP2VYkypOZlzckW2BfAkYVXwNfd/p9yFBIcoioLEC5/iD5sW9rQ41bRfr0Vtz71coVlOJu6ZvcwRhtd2uDpFukp18o4yEyRRFvPWsSje92RR07A= Received: by 10.78.140.17 with SMTP id n17mr20331791hud.47.1202395353231; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 06:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?127.0.0.1? ( [217.206.187.79]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t2sm13843826gve.3.2008.02.07.06.42.31 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 07 Feb 2008 06:42:32 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Evans To: Attilio Rao In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-JZcY1Bk03LPL/MIaQ2VE" Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 14:42:30 +0000 Message-Id: <1202395350.2126.14.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 15:08:04 -0000 --=-JZcY1Bk03LPL/MIaQ2VE Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2008-02-07 at 02:00 +0100, Attilio Rao wrote: > As exposed by several users, NTFS seems to be broken even before first > VFS commits happeing around the end of December. Those commits exposed > some problems about NTFS which are currently under investigation. > Ultimately, This filesystem is also unmaintained at the moment. >=20 > Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: > remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE > implementation. > What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us > about what do you think about this idea and its implications: > - Do you use NTFS? Yes > - Are you interested in maintaining it? No, wouldn't know how > - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What > the kernel counter part adds? Didn't work last time I tried, running RELENG_7 and the NTFS support in base does everything I need, don't experience any problems. I don't like the idea of=20 > - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? >=20 Truthfully, no not really. If no-one wishes to maintain it/fix it now, then I'd prefer it to be disconnected from the build until it annoys someone enough. Apparently its already broken and unusable, but WFM. /dev/ad4s1 on /mnt/windows (ntfs, local, read-only) If the base NTFS support was axed, would the fuse-kmod, or equivalent, find its way into the base? > Thanks, > Attilio >=20 Tom --=-JZcY1Bk03LPL/MIaQ2VE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBHqxjTlcRvFfyds/cRAqXLAJ9dtvANtiO9qEmVhM/VgZsbFdyYDgCffbWu PSyGQUCq8Hl6+zzcJC6YTEI= =tGRz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-JZcY1Bk03LPL/MIaQ2VE-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 17:20:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB9916A46D; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:20:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDD113C45E; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:20:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14074785A; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 12:20:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:20:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Attilio Rao In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802070613mf2bf3feg5dcb480501fcfbbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080207171913.M96200@fledge.watson.org> References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> <3bbf2fe10802070613mf2bf3feg5dcb480501fcfbbc@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Scot Hetzel , Andre Oppermann , Jeff Roberson , Eric Anderson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 17:20:53 -0000 On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, Attilio Rao wrote: > 2008/2/7, Andre Oppermann : > >> Eric Anderson wrote: >>> I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that don't >>> use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying 'keep >>> it!'? >> >> The real question is how many people does it take to say 'I'll maintain >> it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as evidenced by Attilios >> question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious because WITNESS >> didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. > > Andre catched exactly my point. The big problem is that we have a list of > several unmaintained fs. NTFS is in this list. The support is not reliable, > it is only available in read mode and eventually bugged. I'm not sure I want > to keep this if nobody wants to maintain it. If you axe write support, does the maintainability of the kernel ntfs get easier? As I understand it, the write support is rather limited, and debugging and fixing read support is generally a lot easier for a variety of reasons. There's also a lot less risk to data. :-) I think it's reasonable to surmise that, given our rather limited write support currently, the kernel ntfs code is used for data migration and limited sharing to FreeBSD in various forms, but that msdofs remains the general data transport of choice... Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 17:40:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F2716A46B for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:40:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from outE.internet-mail-service.net (outE.internet-mail-service.net [216.240.47.228]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCDA13C44B for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:40:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from mx0.idiom.com (HELO idiom.com) (216.240.32.160) by out.internet-mail-service.net (qpsmtpd/0.40) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:40:57 -0800 Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D81591270FD; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:40:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <47AB42AB.6020107@elischer.org> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:40:59 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Attilio Rao References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> <3bbf2fe10802070613mf2bf3feg5dcb480501fcfbbc@mail.gmail.com> <20080207141820.GR99258@elvis.mu.org> <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Scot Hetzel , Andre Oppermann , Jeff Roberson , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 17:40:57 -0000 Attilio Rao wrote: > 2008/2/7, Alfred Perlstein : >> * Attilio Rao [080207 06:13] wrote: >>> 2008/2/7, Andre Oppermann : >>>> Eric Anderson wrote: >>>>> I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that >>>>> don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying >>>>> 'keep it!'? >>>> The real question is how many people does it take to say 'I'll maintain >>>> it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as evidenced by Attilios >>>> question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious because WITNESS >>>> didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. >>> Andre catched exactly my point. >>> The big problem is that we have a list of several unmaintained fs. >>> NTFS is in this list. The support is not reliable, it is only >>> available in read mode and eventually bugged. >>> I'm not sure I want to keep this if nobody wants to maintain it. >> All I'm saying is that I think this is a bit premature considering >> the users. Within less than 24hrs we've had a few users reporting >> in as users, I'm sure the fixes (now that we have some good assertions) >> are going to be trivial. >> >> Why not let it ferment/rot for a release cycle and then see what >> the story is? > > Obviously if we can fix it is better, but axing is an opportunity I > don't want to leave out and this is why I wanted to poll users about > this issue. Eventually, if an axing is decided, it won't happen in > short times but only once all situations for "migration" will be > probed and finished. I think axing it would be a mistake. > > Attilio > > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 18:05:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C75616A419 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:05:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from qpadla@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.174]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C929413C448 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:05:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from qpadla@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so1074798uge.37 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:05:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:reply-to:to:subject:date:user-agent:cc:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:message-id; bh=z/MklbfQrp57C3iLkRTr3HlI+9bzPk5nmM+4JI2GIn8=; b=Mk3xt473S6yCfm65pb4tm9gNKua4AlYJV3HSuf5IqTxV5hTH9NDdt9+6k4XFaJQMd9FT+79sPwh09pGtHEid9WOMyR0ojcBBZBHBz4UkQWrwBdxeHspAWzIG+XpdEHh/1jroUDy9AnIZVX+8ViQ9lV0EdEwch/D+SMxV5q9plo0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:reply-to:to:subject:date:user-agent:cc:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:message-id; b=ZO4nz0Cc22Qr31sjBcMWJsPyf46WUq8nce8W8WVqDfYUVukW0B3KkHMiHeRMQP48AFn3q+U1rBvcPUKl21bu2DfVV1/uR0NgUAgGHZzvlfaq2MdTzK6AdqOpfOPM/jAr/gc+T1njP2PjrfnLji3SXx54P2EieYFBYrxPA7wEw0s= Received: by 10.66.251.20 with SMTP id y20mr4288809ugh.67.1202405985490; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from atlas.local ( [89.162.141.1]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k28sm10179747ugd.77.2008.02.07.09.39.43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:39:44 -0800 (PST) From: Nikolay Pavlov To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 19:39:47 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <70e8236f0802070321n9097d3fy1b39f637b3c2a06@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <70e8236f0802070321n9097d3fy1b39f637b3c2a06@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200802071939.48039.qpadla@gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Joao Barros , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , Yar Tikhiy , Attilio Rao , Scot Hetzel Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: qpadla@gmail.com List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:05:20 -0000 On Thursday 07 February 2008 13:21:34 Joao Barros wrote: > On Feb 7, 2008 1:00 AM, Attilio Rao wrote: > > As exposed by several users, NTFS seems to be broken even before first > > VFS commits happeing around the end of December. Those commits exposed > > some problems about NTFS which are currently under investigation. > > Ultimately, This filesystem is also unmaintained at the moment. > > > > Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: > > remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE > > implementation. > > What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us > > about what do you think about this idea and its implications: > > - Do you use NTFS? > > Yes. Important in a dual booting enviroment. > > > - Are you interested in maintaining it? > > I would If I had the needed knowledge in FS and Kernel. I only have > availability to offer. > > > - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What > > the kernel counter part adds? > > Yes: Speed. I think this is related only for FreeBSD: http://www.ntfs-3g.org/performance.html I've used it on linux before and the performance was in pair to kernel implementation. > A year ago when building my zfs box I had to migrate 500GB of data off > NTFS. FUSE ntfs is WAY slow. I didn't do a proper benchmark then but I > could setup something now if interest arises. > I didn't have any problems like those being reported with CURRENT from > April 2007 if I recall the date correctly when I copied all that data. > > > - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? > > Yes if... > > Yes if FUSE ntfs can have performance on par with the current ntfs > support. Yes if FUSE ntfs license model doesn't become an issue. > Yes because FUSE ntfs write support is neat =) -- ====================================================================== - Best regards, Nikolay Pavlov. <<<----------------------------------- ====================================================================== From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 18:05:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1F916A514 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:05:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620EB13C4FB for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:05:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b2so1073900nfb.33 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:05:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=ezjvcAe+bLr0s4F0itMGCQZ/FTjWB2MJavwMsBxRWAM=; b=lAwtOQjNyMhwicXMF/m8PVT8vclcOIezaxfLjq2Yme8X9Do2fMJGmkg+hndW7dtbYjfO6mzCPrHlbCTHf6GG0KT0Ni6lWTAbYOWIAcxdd9Xq+wetRc/W/xMgS3x8MOSgi6SAQZFJs9CoMDMtKI/RfAKvAQAmaFg3lzG0X9j98ZQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EzGIbqlcTGgWLcfPAVcqRkHFVmfHDEHVh71u9Nps9QF/xl7HM4zRzWoeohQ6uGxvkWX+a7sjdo3LNHgXHBdiVpfNcpapq9daUKB1zuOWe+6skDW5sZr78PhI7MNwdzCcKUQbugwE5AGa8O+gqENO0//tpqAUa7qv9iaA6smvr88= Received: by 10.78.122.16 with SMTP id u16mr20818341huc.21.1202407539265; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.189.6 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 10:05:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <70e8236f0802071005w7a52923w94be1f35917055d5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:05:39 +0000 From: "Joao Barros" To: "Robert Watson" In-Reply-To: <20080207171913.M96200@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> <3bbf2fe10802070613mf2bf3feg5dcb480501fcfbbc@mail.gmail.com> <20080207171913.M96200@fledge.watson.org> Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Yar Tikhiy , Scot Hetzel , Andre Oppermann , Jeff Roberson , Attilio Rao , Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:05:46 -0000 On Feb 7, 2008 5:20 PM, Robert Watson wrote: > On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, Attilio Rao wrote: > > > 2008/2/7, Andre Oppermann : > > > >> Eric Anderson wrote: > >>> I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that don't > >>> use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying 'keep > >>> it!'? > >> > >> The real question is how many people does it take to say 'I'll maintain > >> it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as evidenced by Attilios > >> question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious because WITNESS > >> didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. > > > > Andre catched exactly my point. The big problem is that we have a list of > > several unmaintained fs. NTFS is in this list. The support is not reliable, > > it is only available in read mode and eventually bugged. I'm not sure I want > > to keep this if nobody wants to maintain it. > > If you axe write support, does the maintainability of the kernel ntfs get > easier? As I understand it, the write support is rather limited, and If I recall correctly ntfs volumes are mounted readonly by default (I'm unable to verify now). > debugging and fixing read support is generally a lot easier for a variety of > reasons. There's also a lot less risk to data. :-) I think it's reasonable > to surmise that, given our rather limited write support currently, the kernel > ntfs code is used for data migration and limited sharing to FreeBSD in various > forms, but that msdofs remains the general data transport of choice... With this in mind, I used FAT32, but occasional Windows crashes lead to some filesystem corruption and time consuming fsck. I converted the fs to ntfs and had no more issues. General data transport of choice for usb pens, external disks, iPods, and when you need the ability to read/write it everywhere, but for running Windows it's not the best choice when compared to ntfs. If you think of it, FAT32 is the best supported (r/w) fs (on disk) by all platforms: Windows, FreeBSD, OS X, Linux. Having read the news today about the corporate support OpenID got, I dream of a *good* universally supported fs. But I digress =) > > Robert N M Watson > Computer Laboratory > University of Cambridge -- Joao Barros From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 18:07:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE36316A418 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:07:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from qpadla@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.171]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7075613C4FF for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:07:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from qpadla@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so1075274uge.37 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:07:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:reply-to:to:subject:date:user-agent:cc:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:message-id; bh=KcEvHuyiKyOYj0PRxSH2SkmL41i3VQ3mi32svLSPjv4=; b=oaSFcIGF+cKkkauFG0wvAVdT7GKSIg1WwuLTL9/cLM/7hZUKaiW8Tv0u0Z1/S6Zq5GDNugq2E7eoqo18shUOXpkb3IvIMU/pwAcHedMsGft7fgv4/yzcyyUCvgAG1Yd2cDng4s6v29tRMdQMVnuE3HgVFTBVU9lffR/RxIK4Gck= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:reply-to:to:subject:date:user-agent:cc:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:message-id; b=WAVy2jdMB88QCBet3h2F6HOMpBmDN6m7DU9Qc3JnCBcRSgCkuEZ1wgQq9s/W1lGP+weTE1/SlMGDNpuplonHGh+mKPxcKMvM+I72nv8DK3H8PcnG5C5wfLtrqXVE8Fr7p97WOhuGmUrdm6kC4DZugYqhfuxjMIR4yqsI9kCWBs4= Received: by 10.67.115.9 with SMTP id s9mr4278392ugm.81.1202406080482; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from atlas.local ( [89.162.141.1]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u7sm3062198uge.35.2008.02.07.09.41.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:41:19 -0800 (PST) From: Nikolay Pavlov To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 19:41:22 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200802071941.23199.qpadla@gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , Eric Anderson , Attilio Rao , Scot Hetzel Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: qpadla@gmail.com List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:07:23 -0000 On Thursday 07 February 2008 14:47:41 Eric Anderson wrote: > FUSE is slow, requires a port (unless PUFFS is ported, which I've probed > about before). I think this is not an argument: http://www.ntfs-3g.org/performance.html -- ====================================================================== - Best regards, Nikolay Pavlov. <<<----------------------------------- ====================================================================== From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 18:18:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0571716A419 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:18:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AAB013C45D for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:18:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joao.barros@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b2so1077286nfb.33 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:18:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=kr+ZYDhgJY5kqdXY9h+KjlofOHezPv/7JH9ed8T7qj4=; b=HaFiiLi0xjmvmqMXO9W+J0EqxD2OTMxntxWBPTFeNkeWWLQop7ipLpuchDXUMb+Qz2ARtg4YvsnfMdWg9U4bnY5GK5jcr8Z1c2moOxhl4ZZjbd2omxxC8Mv26aWfImDHv1UcVZXLjoWXJOuOPCxJgGbDD40mfXM9hNuILMjnQVo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ggpOkG9jowuSALZgLEBOks7fa0O1IhTOA8C/6Q/ILRnMaZODRuz0GKplyI3Gqpd/6oZfoSnENzp6nRNveWz8hhDUiCL6bx097XoQyPvHATgUMI/M2D5w0ZDiyu7Yal/VDJccjFFGJbeeqRCi5C69WCY9IqV109wVPBbwyVw8YPw= Received: by 10.78.193.5 with SMTP id q5mr20877493huf.4.1202408322717; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.189.6 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 10:18:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <70e8236f0802071018n389afa3bu161eaa5c6563cbc0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:18:42 +0000 From: "Joao Barros" To: qpadla@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <200802071941.23199.qpadla@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> <200802071941.23199.qpadla@gmail.com> Cc: Attilio Rao , Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:18:45 -0000 On Feb 7, 2008 5:41 PM, Nikolay Pavlov wrote: > On Thursday 07 February 2008 14:47:41 Eric Anderson wrote: > > FUSE is slow, requires a port (unless PUFFS is ported, which I've probed > > about before). > > I think this is not an argument: > http://www.ntfs-3g.org/performance.html > Eric has valid points. How relevant is a benchmark on Linux to your argument? -- Joao Barros From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 18:52:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A129A16A420 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:52:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from qpadla@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABCF13C4DD for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:52:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from qpadla@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id y2so1092622uge.37 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:52:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:reply-to:to:subject:date:user-agent:cc:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:message-id; bh=SNf+RTbTcpqVnF+bFdNgH1Xarr3DJch7+PEnLPEMnPM=; b=EBuzShm6HZj8E3/QprX0jsfRVIYtbfdqcuSt2X2lfZ40YM9tVTJb67a3kz+aLzHbd85R+A1+bTOlXeVm+YTm5nc9oZk7uIDVZY9YpRiqu0vwZtBg8OIW1D+Z+2DV13aTbggGxILuK6S1pzuhy5v9iJLP4dFLZn2Z5kbOlnRtsLs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:reply-to:to:subject:date:user-agent:cc:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:message-id; b=CJoG6nwB8RckEB+59q9vccQ86D4QkA130QdIt1VZZsigHxOIXcdNG/1rCbknQQ5a+LmdYZ0E0J0TPgdfzBVrWhHLqdsPhUly1bigoq6pVCywQrdnf8Vm00EpoLCEXV+2UzpQQHGEHaIgtmNA21iiXPz9CVceipTpCnf+LEwe7aY= Received: by 10.67.116.7 with SMTP id t7mr4377062ugm.38.1202410374581; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from atlas.local ( [89.162.141.1]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w28sm3100136uge.79.2008.02.07.10.52.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:52:53 -0800 (PST) From: Nikolay Pavlov To: "Joao Barros" Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:52:55 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <200802071941.23199.qpadla@gmail.com> <70e8236f0802071018n389afa3bu161eaa5c6563cbc0@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <70e8236f0802071018n389afa3bu161eaa5c6563cbc0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200802072052.56918.qpadla@gmail.com> Cc: Attilio Rao , Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: qpadla@gmail.com List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:52:57 -0000 On Thursday 07 February 2008 20:18:42 Joao Barros wrote: > On Feb 7, 2008 5:41 PM, Nikolay Pavlov wrote: > > On Thursday 07 February 2008 14:47:41 Eric Anderson wrote: > > > FUSE is slow, requires a port (unless PUFFS is ported, which I've > > > probed about before). > > > > I think this is not an argument: > > http://www.ntfs-3g.org/performance.html > > Eric has valid points. > How relevant is a benchmark on Linux to your argument? But it's a userland application. This page is demonstration of it's potential performance that could be achieved, but were is the FreeBSD NTFS implementation stats? Let me ask you: compered to what FUSE is slow? -- ====================================================================== - Best regards, Nikolay Pavlov. <<<----------------------------------- ====================================================================== From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 23:03:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6172316A468 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:03:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx24.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0083D13C45A for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:03:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 12676 invoked by uid 399); 7 Feb 2008 23:03:08 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.0.4?) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTP; 7 Feb 2008 23:03:08 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 Message-ID: <47AB8E28.4050502@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 15:03:04 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <47AAFDED.9030301@freebsd.org> <47AB05A1.7010803@freebsd.org> <3bbf2fe10802070613mf2bf3feg5dcb480501fcfbbc@mail.gmail.com> <20080207171913.M96200@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080207171913.M96200@fledge.watson.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Yar Tikhiy , Scot Hetzel , Andre Oppermann , Jeff Roberson , Eric Anderson , Attilio Rao , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:03:10 -0000 Robert Watson wrote: > If you axe write support, does the maintainability of the kernel ntfs > get easier? As I understand it, the write support is rather > limited, and debugging and fixing read support is generally a lot > easier for a variety of reasons. The few serious attempts I've made to use the NTFS in the base to write data were unsuccessful, and given the instability of the code I didn't push it very hard since I didn't want to scramble my data. > There's also a lot less risk to data. :-) Right. :) > I think it's reasonable to surmise that, given our rather limited > write support currently, the kernel ntfs code is used for data > migration and limited sharing to FreeBSD in various forms, but that > msdofs remains the general data transport of choice... Read support that works is better than R/W support that doesn't, yes. So if someone wants to step up to maintain this and axing write support gets us something that actually works, who am I to argue? I think keeping the goal(s) of R/W support in the base, and/or working FUSE in mind is a Good Thing, but getting a working solution to at least one of these problems would be a big step forward. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 23:12:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D6416A41B for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:12:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-arch@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC42613C458 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:12:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-arch@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JNFJV-0005Em-Rp for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:33:49 +0000 Received: from r5j156.net.upc.cz ([86.49.9.156]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:33:49 +0000 Received: from gamato by r5j156.net.upc.cz with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:33:49 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org From: martinko Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:33:42 +0100 Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <1202395350.2126.14.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: r5j156.net.upc.cz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20080203 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 In-Reply-To: <1202395350.2126.14.camel@localhost> Sender: news Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:12:05 -0000 Tom Evans wrote: > On Thu, 2008-02-07 at 02:00 +0100, Attilio Rao wrote: >> As exposed by several users, NTFS seems to be broken even before first >> VFS commits happeing around the end of December. Those commits exposed >> some problems about NTFS which are currently under investigation. >> Ultimately, This filesystem is also unmaintained at the moment. >> >> Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: >> remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE >> implementation. >> What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us >> about what do you think about this idea and its implications: >> - Do you use NTFS? > Yes >> - Are you interested in maintaining it? > No, wouldn't know how >> - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What >> the kernel counter part adds? > Didn't work last time I tried, running RELENG_7 and the NTFS support in > base does everything I need, don't experience any problems. I don't like > the idea of >> - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? >> > Truthfully, no not really. If no-one wishes to maintain it/fix it now, > then I'd prefer it to be disconnected from the build until it annoys > someone enough. Apparently its already broken and unusable, but WFM. > /dev/ad4s1 on /mnt/windows (ntfs, local, read-only) > > If the base NTFS support was axed, would the fuse-kmod, or equivalent, > find its way into the base? > >> Thanks, >> Attilio >> > > Tom And what about puffs from NetBSD ? Wouldn't it be better to import puffs and ReFUSE ? From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 23:30:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B0716A418; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:30:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B756F13C47E; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:30:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m17NRIQ5093215; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:27:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:30:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20080207.163002.1649769344.imp@bsdimp.com> To: marcus@marcuscom.com From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <1202065383.59813.40.camel@shumai.marcuscom.com> References: <479F1713.2030705@icyb.net.ua> <1202065383.59813.40.camel@shumai.marcuscom.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: avg@icyb.net.ua, freebsd-gnome@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HAL/freebsd architecture X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:30:45 -0000 In message: <1202065383.59813.40.camel@shumai.marcuscom.com> Joe Marcus Clarke writes: : : On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 14:07 +0200, Andriy Gapon wrote: : > This is not a concrete suggestion and I can not volunteer to write any : > code yet (unfortunately). : > : > Recently I played a little bit with DesktopBSD live CD and liked some : > add-on software provided there and some implementation approaches were : > quite interesting for me too. : > : > Just in case, the tools can be found in sysutils/desktopbsd-tools and : > there is a FAQ page on using them in "plain" FreeBSD: : > http://desktopbsd.net/wiki/doku.php?id=doc:desktopbsd_tools_in_freebsd : > : > This got me thinking: maybe we could also apply the same approach as : > used for dbsd-hwnotify to HAL/FreeBSD. I.e. hald could do initial : > querying of devices and then just wait for notification from devd about : > any changes. : > : > This, of course, would require some changes to the base system, but I : > think that these would be useful for many more applications than just hald. : > : > Some things that come to mind first: "forward" instruction to devd.conf : > to execute some action for all events in addition to any event-specific : > actions. This is so that we could preserve current devd functionality : > but also allow to delegate some decisions to other software. : > : > I think that this way we could get a lot of current hald functionality : > for free, without the special probing/polling routines that have to : > written at present. : > But this would probably mean some additional changes in kernel-land. For : > example, there are complaints now that CD-ROM drivers do not : > automatically notice media removal/change and, for instance, do not : > update GEOM_LABEL information [*]. This is important for HAL : > functionality too. So, media checking/polling would probably have to go : > to the CD-ROM drivers. : > But, as I said earlier, this would probably be a universal good - we : > could kill several birds with one stone. : > : > To summarize: most of what FreeBSD hald currently does in userland is : > either already done in kernel as well or it better be done in kernel. : > hald should just mostly listen to notifications coming from kernel. Most : > likely this is best done via devd. Such approaches, of course, would : > require changes to pieces of kernel and to devd. : : hald already listens to devd for as many events as it can. I agree that : some information is better tracked in the kernel, but devd is not the : right outlet for everything (we still need to build a device tree when : hald starts). I have been poking a few kernel/driver developers to : expose more information via sysctl as this is a safe way of obtaining : hardware data without needing elevated privileges, or access the devices : directly. What's needed here? I don't think I've been poked and devinfo interface should give you the device tree... Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 23:34:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D266516A41A; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:34:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67F3D13C4CC; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:34:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m17NSP7O093272; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:28:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:31:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20080207.163109.-1384053103.imp@bsdimp.com> To: attilio@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: yar@freebsd.org, dougb@freebsd.org, jeff@freebsd.org, freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, swhetzel@gmail.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:34:24 -0000 In message: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> "Attilio Rao" writes: : - Do you use NTFS? : - Are you interested in maintaining it? : - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What : the kernel counter part adds? : - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? I use NTFS extensively and it has worked as recently as early in the 7.0 release branch. I think axing it is a horrible idea. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 23:34:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C6816A46C; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:34:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2C1013C45B; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:34:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m17NU7PS093277; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:30:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:32:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20080207.163251.179960372.imp@bsdimp.com> To: dougb@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <47AABEEF.7020807@FreeBSD.org> References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <20080207071314.GO99258@elvis.mu.org> <47AABEEF.7020807@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: attilio@freebsd.org, yar@freebsd.org, swhetzel@gmail.com, jeff@freebsd.org, alfred@freebsd.org, freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:34:29 -0000 In message: <47AABEEF.7020807@FreeBSD.org> Doug Barton writes: : Alfred Perlstein wrote: : : > Maybe a nicer way of saying/asking would be to ask: : > : > Is the FUSE replacement going to be tested to the point where it's : > better than then current NTFS code? : : Given that the current NTFS code in the base panics within minutes of : any kind of serious access, and has the ability to take the other : filesystems down with it (including UFS2) that won't be hard. This change in behavior is very recent. It used to be the one file system you could count on to get data off a disk that was throwing disk errors back at the OS. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 23:39:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFAB16A418; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:39:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.org) Received: from dragon.nuxi.org (trang.nuxi.org [74.95.12.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63DF913C4CC; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:39:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.org) Received: from dragon.nuxi.org (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m17NQ57g003728; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:26:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.org) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.org (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m17NQ50x003727; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:26:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:26:05 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Alfred Perlstein Message-ID: <20080207232605.GA3673@dragon.NUXI.org> Mail-Followup-To: obrien@freebsd.org, Alfred Perlstein , Attilio Rao , Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <20080207071314.GO99258@elvis.mu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080207071314.GO99258@elvis.mu.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 8.0-CURRENT User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , Attilio Rao , Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:39:05 -0000 On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 11:13:14PM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Attilio Rao [080206 17:00] wrote: > > remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE > > implementation. .. > > My pragmatic view on this is that I think it's odd that something > that is sort-of working for a few people is going to be axed by > people that don't use it, while promising to replace it with something > better. > > Maybe a nicer way of saying/asking would be to ask: > > Is the FUSE replacement going to be tested to the point where it's > better than then current NTFS code? Hear, Hear! From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 23:37:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55BA16A418; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:37:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5959F13C447; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:37:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m17NWAlC093322; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:32:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:34:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20080207.163454.-1471235838.imp@bsdimp.com> To: attilio@FreeBSD.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> References: <3bbf2fe10802070613mf2bf3feg5dcb480501fcfbbc@mail.gmail.com> <20080207141820.GR99258@elvis.mu.org> <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:42:51 +0000 Cc: yar@FreeBSD.org, swhetzel@gmail.com, andre@FreeBSD.org, jeff@FreeBSD.org, alfred@FreeBSD.org, anderson@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, dougb@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:37:19 -0000 In message: <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> "Attilio Rao" writes: : 2008/2/7, Alfred Perlstein : : > * Attilio Rao [080207 06:13] wrote: : > > 2008/2/7, Andre Oppermann : : > > > Eric Anderson wrote: : > > > > I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that : > > > > don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying : > > > > 'keep it!'? : > > > : > > > The real question is how many people does it take to say 'I'll maintain : > > > it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as evidenced by Attilios : > > > question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious because WITNESS : > > > didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. : > > : > > Andre catched exactly my point. : > > The big problem is that we have a list of several unmaintained fs. : > > NTFS is in this list. The support is not reliable, it is only : > > available in read mode and eventually bugged. : > > I'm not sure I want to keep this if nobody wants to maintain it. : > : > All I'm saying is that I think this is a bit premature considering : > the users. Within less than 24hrs we've had a few users reporting : > in as users, I'm sure the fixes (now that we have some good assertions) : > are going to be trivial. : > : > Why not let it ferment/rot for a release cycle and then see what : > the story is? : : Obviously if we can fix it is better, but axing is an opportunity I : don't want to leave out and this is why I wanted to poll users about : this issue. Eventually, if an axing is decided, it won't happen in : short times but only once all situations for "migration" will be : probed and finished. WE SHOULD NOT AXE IT. IT IS TOO USEFUL. VERY RECENTLY IT WORKED VERY WELL. There's a lot of other systems in the tree that aren't nearly as useful that nobody is complaining about that are actually in much worse shape. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Feb 7 23:54:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 543EC16A41A; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:54:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA7AF13C465; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:54:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m17NoWFd093666; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:50:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:53:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20080207.165316.1678770676.imp@bsdimp.com> To: attilio@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20080207.163454.-1471235838.imp@bsdimp.com> References: <20080207141820.GR99258@elvis.mu.org> <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> <20080207.163454.-1471235838.imp@bsdimp.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:02:00 +0000 Cc: yar@freebsd.org, swhetzel@gmail.com, andre@freebsd.org, jeff@freebsd.org, alfred@freebsd.org, anderson@freebsd.org, freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, dougb@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:54:42 -0000 In message: <20080207.163454.-1471235838.imp@bsdimp.com> "M. Warner Losh" writes: : In message: <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> : "Attilio Rao" writes: : : 2008/2/7, Alfred Perlstein : : : > * Attilio Rao [080207 06:13] wrote: : : > > 2008/2/7, Andre Oppermann : : : > > > Eric Anderson wrote: : : > > > > I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that : : > > > > don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying : : > > > > 'keep it!'? : : > > > : : > > > The real question is how many people does it take to say 'I'll maintain : : > > > it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as evidenced by Attilios : : > > > question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious because WITNESS : : > > > didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. : : > > : : > > Andre catched exactly my point. : : > > The big problem is that we have a list of several unmaintained fs. : : > > NTFS is in this list. The support is not reliable, it is only : : > > available in read mode and eventually bugged. : : > > I'm not sure I want to keep this if nobody wants to maintain it. : : > : : > All I'm saying is that I think this is a bit premature considering : : > the users. Within less than 24hrs we've had a few users reporting : : > in as users, I'm sure the fixes (now that we have some good assertions) : : > are going to be trivial. : : > : : > Why not let it ferment/rot for a release cycle and then see what : : > the story is? : : : : Obviously if we can fix it is better, but axing is an opportunity I : : don't want to leave out and this is why I wanted to poll users about : : this issue. Eventually, if an axing is decided, it won't happen in : : short times but only once all situations for "migration" will be : : probed and finished. : : WE SHOULD NOT AXE IT. IT IS TOO USEFUL. VERY RECENTLY IT WORKED VERY : WELL. : : There's a lot of other systems in the tree that aren't nearly as : useful that nobody is complaining about that are actually in much : worse shape. OK. I shouldn't have shouted. My basic point is that ntfs worked very recently, and therefore we owe it to ourselves to give it some time to get fixed. fuse is unknown, not even in head and the performance characteristics between the two aren't known. Also, I use ntfs to recover data from "crashed" disks because it copes well with bad spots on the disk. None of the other filesystems in the tree does this, and that makes it a very powerful tool for dealing with crashed disks that others say are unrecoverable. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 8 01:03:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3676416A41A; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 01:03:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marcus@marcuscom.com) Received: from creme-brulee.marcuscom.com (penna-pt.tunnel.tserv1.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:ffff::1279]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB0F13C474; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 01:03:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marcus@marcuscom.com) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:2464::4] (shumai.marcuscom.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:2464::4]) by creme-brulee.marcuscom.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m1813emj082262; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 20:03:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marcus@marcuscom.com) From: Joe Marcus Clarke To: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20080207.163002.1649769344.imp@bsdimp.com> References: <479F1713.2030705@icyb.net.ua> <1202065383.59813.40.camel@shumai.marcuscom.com> <20080207.163002.1649769344.imp@bsdimp.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-V3qPcoFAsmWqVMPszcuE" Organization: MarcusCom, Inc. Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:02:59 -0500 Message-Id: <1202432579.94347.9.camel@shumai.marcuscom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.2.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.4 (2008-01-01) on creme-brulee.marcuscom.com Cc: avg@icyb.net.ua, freebsd-gnome@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HAL/freebsd architecture X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 01:03:12 -0000 --=-V3qPcoFAsmWqVMPszcuE Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2008-02-07 at 16:30 -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <1202065383.59813.40.camel@shumai.marcuscom.com> > Joe Marcus Clarke writes: > :=20 > : On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 14:07 +0200, Andriy Gapon wrote: > : > This is not a concrete suggestion and I can not volunteer to write an= y > : > code yet (unfortunately). > : >=20 > : > Recently I played a little bit with DesktopBSD live CD and liked some > : > add-on software provided there and some implementation approaches wer= e > : > quite interesting for me too. > : >=20 > : > Just in case, the tools can be found in sysutils/desktopbsd-tools and > : > there is a FAQ page on using them in "plain" FreeBSD: > : > http://desktopbsd.net/wiki/doku.php?id=3Ddoc:desktopbsd_tools_in_free= bsd > : >=20 > : > This got me thinking: maybe we could also apply the same approach as > : > used for dbsd-hwnotify to HAL/FreeBSD. I.e. hald could do initial > : > querying of devices and then just wait for notification from devd abo= ut > : > any changes. > : >=20 > : > This, of course, would require some changes to the base system, but I > : > think that these would be useful for many more applications than just= hald. > : >=20 > : > Some things that come to mind first: "forward" instruction to devd.co= nf > : > to execute some action for all events in addition to any event-specif= ic > : > actions. This is so that we could preserve current devd functionality > : > but also allow to delegate some decisions to other software. > : >=20 > : > I think that this way we could get a lot of current hald functionalit= y > : > for free, without the special probing/polling routines that have to > : > written at present. > : > But this would probably mean some additional changes in kernel-land. = For > : > example, there are complaints now that CD-ROM drivers do not > : > automatically notice media removal/change and, for instance, do not > : > update GEOM_LABEL information [*]. This is important for HAL > : > functionality too. So, media checking/polling would probably have to = go > : > to the CD-ROM drivers. > : > But, as I said earlier, this would probably be a universal good - we > : > could kill several birds with one stone. > : >=20 > : > To summarize: most of what FreeBSD hald currently does in userland is > : > either already done in kernel as well or it better be done in kernel. > : > hald should just mostly listen to notifications coming from kernel. M= ost > : > likely this is best done via devd. Such approaches, of course, would > : > require changes to pieces of kernel and to devd. > :=20 > : hald already listens to devd for as many events as it can. I agree tha= t > : some information is better tracked in the kernel, but devd is not the > : right outlet for everything (we still need to build a device tree when > : hald starts). I have been poking a few kernel/driver developers to > : expose more information via sysctl as this is a safe way of obtaining > : hardware data without needing elevated privileges, or access the device= s > : directly. >=20 > What's needed here? I don't think I've been poked and devinfo > interface should give you the device tree... devinfo does give us the tree, and we use it. Some of the things I've asked developers include extending the ldev driver (luigi's Linux device driver wrapper) to expose the device class via a sysctl, and adding version and driver type sysctls for our DRM driver (anholt). Another sysctl that would be nice to have is one that gives the actual /dev device node (if applicable) for each device. Some of these are obvious, but others are not. As I work through the HAL spec (http://www.marcuscom.com/hal-spec/hal-spec.html), and find areas where we cannot easily map properties, I try to notify developers. One area I haven't yet pursued is firewire. We cannot easily build firewire nodes in the HAL tree, but this is not a high priority. Another area where I think we could use some improvement is the printer area. Currently, I know of know way to fill in the printer properties using sysctl, devinfo, or any ioctl APIs. This could add some benefit as there are a few apps which make use of HAL's printer support to auto-detect printers. Joe --=20 PGP Key : http://www.marcuscom.com/pgp.asc --=-V3qPcoFAsmWqVMPszcuE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (FreeBSD) iEYEABECAAYFAkerqkIACgkQb2iPiv4Uz4cyDQCeJxqb4T3DsQgkiVVXC8pMJ6Ne j8gAn29+r/VQP7V1MIzacrgrbvEdqkts =XnqB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-V3qPcoFAsmWqVMPszcuE-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 8 02:06:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7473A16A41A; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 02:06:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@chesapeake.net) Received: from webaccess-cl.virtdom.com (webaccess-cl.virtdom.com [216.240.101.25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 347B013C4E7; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 02:06:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jroberson@chesapeake.net) Received: from [192.168.1.107] (cpe-24-94-75-93.hawaii.res.rr.com [24.94.75.93]) (authenticated bits=0) by webaccess-cl.virtdom.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m1825pFv091255; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:05:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jroberson@chesapeake.net) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:06:42 -1000 (HST) From: Jeff Roberson X-X-Sender: jroberson@desktop To: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20080207.165316.1678770676.imp@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: <20080207155338.Q15691@desktop> References: <20080207141820.GR99258@elvis.mu.org> <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> <20080207.163454.-1471235838.imp@bsdimp.com> <20080207.165316.1678770676.imp@bsdimp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 02:48:05 +0000 Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, yar@freebsd.org, swhetzel@gmail.com, andre@freebsd.org, jeff@freebsd.org, alfred@freebsd.org, anderson@freebsd.org, attilio@freebsd.org, dougb@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 02:06:03 -0000 On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <20080207.163454.-1471235838.imp@bsdimp.com> > "M. Warner Losh" writes: > : In message: <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> > : "Attilio Rao" writes: > : : 2008/2/7, Alfred Perlstein : > : : > * Attilio Rao [080207 06:13] wrote: > : : > > 2008/2/7, Andre Oppermann : > : : > > > Eric Anderson wrote: > : : > > > > I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many people that > : : > > > > don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 person saying > : : > > > > 'keep it!'? > : : > > > > : : > > > The real question is how many people does it take to say 'I'll maintain > : : > > > it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as evidenced by Attilios > : : > > > question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious because WITNESS > : : > > > didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. > : : > > > : : > > Andre catched exactly my point. > : : > > The big problem is that we have a list of several unmaintained fs. > : : > > NTFS is in this list. The support is not reliable, it is only > : : > > available in read mode and eventually bugged. > : : > > I'm not sure I want to keep this if nobody wants to maintain it. > : : > > : : > All I'm saying is that I think this is a bit premature considering > : : > the users. Within less than 24hrs we've had a few users reporting > : : > in as users, I'm sure the fixes (now that we have some good assertions) > : : > are going to be trivial. > : : > > : : > Why not let it ferment/rot for a release cycle and then see what > : : > the story is? > : : > : : Obviously if we can fix it is better, but axing is an opportunity I > : : don't want to leave out and this is why I wanted to poll users about > : : this issue. Eventually, if an axing is decided, it won't happen in > : : short times but only once all situations for "migration" will be > : : probed and finished. > : > : WE SHOULD NOT AXE IT. IT IS TOO USEFUL. VERY RECENTLY IT WORKED VERY > : WELL. > : > : There's a lot of other systems in the tree that aren't nearly as > : useful that nobody is complaining about that are actually in much > : worse shape. > > OK. I shouldn't have shouted. My basic point is that ntfs worked > very recently, and therefore we owe it to ourselves to give it some > time to get fixed. fuse is unknown, not even in head and the > performance characteristics between the two aren't known. Also, I use > ntfs to recover data from "crashed" disks because it copes well with > bad spots on the disk. None of the other filesystems in the tree does > this, and that makes it a very powerful tool for dealing with crashed > disks that others say are unrecoverable. Not picking on anyone in particular, but let's keep in mind that this was an enquiry not a real proposal to axe it right away. I suggested Attilio find out if there were users and clearly there are. So there is value in keeping this thing working and fuse isn't a sure bet. We just wanted to understand the situation before acting. However, this is open source. Some one needs to step up to the plate and fix these bugs. It's only 4,700 lines of code. It shouldn't be insurmountable for someone who has a passing understanding of VFS. Some of the bugs were exposed by better asserts and witness support by Attilio. I don't think his effort to fix lockmgr should be hung up trying to understand ntfs however unless he directly broke it. It's going to have to continue firing asserts until someone fixes it. Also, ntfs is a strange bird compared to other filesystems. Briefly looking at it, there may be some subtle architectural problems with it. For example, it creates 'ntnode' inodes that aren't associated with vnodes and so have their own lifecycle management. It is likely that this is the source of the panics that I have heard of. An eager volunteer might also consider making it MPSAFE to further reduce the number of filesystems which require Giant so we can eventually drop the hideous giant wrappers. Cheers, Jeff > > Warner > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 8 03:30:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F9916A419; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:30:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Received: from ns.trinitel.com (186.161.36.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com [72.36.161.186]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4B013C458; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:30:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Received: from proton.local (r74-193-81-203.pfvlcmta01.grtntx.tl.dh.suddenlink.net [74.193.81.203]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns.trinitel.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m183U0Rq016971; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:30:03 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <47ABCCB3.70009@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:29:55 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Roberson References: <20080207141820.GR99258@elvis.mu.org> <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> <20080207.163454.-1471235838.imp@bsdimp.com> <20080207.165316.1678770676.imp@bsdimp.com> <20080207155338.Q15691@desktop> In-Reply-To: <20080207155338.Q15691@desktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on ns.trinitel.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 03:34:26 +0000 Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, yar@freebsd.org, swhetzel@gmail.com, andre@freebsd.org, jeff@freebsd.org, alfred@freebsd.org, attilio@freebsd.org, dougb@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 03:30:14 -0000 Jeff Roberson wrote: > On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, M. Warner Losh wrote: > >> In message: <20080207.163454.-1471235838.imp@bsdimp.com> >> "M. Warner Losh" writes: >> : In message: <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> >> : "Attilio Rao" writes: >> : : 2008/2/7, Alfred Perlstein : >> : : > * Attilio Rao [080207 06:13] wrote: >> : : > > 2008/2/7, Andre Oppermann : >> : : > > > Eric Anderson wrote: >> : : > > > > I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many >> people that >> : : > > > > don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 >> person saying >> : : > > > > 'keep it!'? >> : : > > > >> : : > > > The real question is how many people does it take to say >> 'I'll maintain >> : : > > > it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as >> evidenced by Attilios >> : : > > > question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious >> because WITNESS >> : : > > > didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. >> : : > > >> : : > > Andre catched exactly my point. >> : : > > The big problem is that we have a list of several unmaintained >> fs. >> : : > > NTFS is in this list. The support is not reliable, it is only >> : : > > available in read mode and eventually bugged. >> : : > > I'm not sure I want to keep this if nobody wants to maintain it. >> : : > >> : : > All I'm saying is that I think this is a bit premature considering >> : : > the users. Within less than 24hrs we've had a few users reporting >> : : > in as users, I'm sure the fixes (now that we have some good >> assertions) >> : : > are going to be trivial. >> : : > >> : : > Why not let it ferment/rot for a release cycle and then see what >> : : > the story is? >> : : >> : : Obviously if we can fix it is better, but axing is an opportunity I >> : : don't want to leave out and this is why I wanted to poll users about >> : : this issue. Eventually, if an axing is decided, it won't happen in >> : : short times but only once all situations for "migration" will be >> : : probed and finished. >> : >> : WE SHOULD NOT AXE IT. IT IS TOO USEFUL. VERY RECENTLY IT WORKED VERY >> : WELL. >> : >> : There's a lot of other systems in the tree that aren't nearly as >> : useful that nobody is complaining about that are actually in much >> : worse shape. >> >> OK. I shouldn't have shouted. My basic point is that ntfs worked >> very recently, and therefore we owe it to ourselves to give it some >> time to get fixed. fuse is unknown, not even in head and the >> performance characteristics between the two aren't known. Also, I use >> ntfs to recover data from "crashed" disks because it copes well with >> bad spots on the disk. None of the other filesystems in the tree does >> this, and that makes it a very powerful tool for dealing with crashed >> disks that others say are unrecoverable. > > Not picking on anyone in particular, but let's keep in mind that this > was an enquiry not a real proposal to axe it right away. I suggested > Attilio find out if there were users and clearly there are. So there is > value in keeping this thing working and fuse isn't a sure bet. We just > wanted to understand the situation before acting. > > However, this is open source. Some one needs to step up to the plate > and fix these bugs. It's only 4,700 lines of code. It shouldn't be > insurmountable for someone who has a passing understanding of VFS. > > Some of the bugs were exposed by better asserts and witness support by > Attilio. I don't think his effort to fix lockmgr should be hung up > trying to understand ntfs however unless he directly broke it. It's > going to have to continue firing asserts until someone fixes it. > > Also, ntfs is a strange bird compared to other filesystems. Briefly > looking at it, there may be some subtle architectural problems with it. > For example, it creates 'ntnode' inodes that aren't associated with > vnodes and so have their own lifecycle management. It is likely that > this is the source of the panics that I have heard of. > > An eager volunteer might also consider making it MPSAFE to further > reduce the number of filesystems which require Giant so we can > eventually drop the hideous giant wrappers. Are all the known bugs entered into gnats already? Eric From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 8 11:42:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8EFD16A417; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 11:42:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rea-fbsd@codelabs.ru) Received: from 0.mx.codelabs.ru (0.mx.codelabs.ru [144.206.177.45]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8377A13C461; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 11:42:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rea-fbsd@codelabs.ru) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=one; d=codelabs.ru; h=Received:Date:From:To:Cc:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:Sender:X-Spam-Status:Subject; b=ciJjB86naW0YoOgEaRDpV3h0H6Xxoh8/UgffukYx9/oBIU7xExXXOpUvLoBcoubCtD6pO2lKbRMawsnroORCsBZ0aTgHnk1b7b5KXeL6I/+XdOxTa7brvU8M2IIcpgu9TjKfxahmVdFt1nGQgHAv3cLNB/n51sqJQTDEO3gLZ2A=; Received: from void.codelabs.ru (void.codelabs.ru [144.206.177.25]) by 0.mx.codelabs.ru with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) id 1JNRQX-000HBR-Ni; Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:29:53 +0300 Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:29:51 +0300 From: Eygene Ryabinkin To: Attilio Rao Message-ID: References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> Sender: rea-fbsd@codelabs.ru X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_40 Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 11:42:03 -0000 Attilio, good day. Thu, Feb 07, 2008 at 02:00:41AM +0100, Attilio Rao wrote: > As exposed by several users, NTFS seems to be broken even before first > VFS commits happeing around the end of December. Those commits exposed > some problems about NTFS which are currently under investigation. > Ultimately, This filesystem is also unmaintained at the moment. > > Speaking with jeff, we agreed on what can be a possible compromise: > remove the kernel support for NTFS and maybe take care of the FUSE > implementation. > What I now propose is a small survey which can shade a light on us > about what do you think about this idea and its implications: > - Do you use NTFS? Yes, especially on the multi-homed notebook systems. In read-only mode it rocks. > - Are you interested in maintaining it? Yes. If you can throw the buglist for NTFS on me, I will be very grateful. > - Do you know a good reason to not use FUSE ntfs implementation? What > the kernel counter part adds? Don't know, newer tried FUSE. > - Do you think axing the kernel support a good idea? IMO, not a good one. -- Eygene From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 8 16:23:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E5216A41A; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:23:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A0813C442; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:23:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DE247EE5; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 11:23:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:23:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Eygene Ryabinkin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080208162231.R17387@fledge.watson.org> References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , Attilio Rao , Scot Hetzel , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:23:47 -0000 On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Eygene Ryabinkin wrote: >> - Are you interested in maintaining it? > > Yes. If you can throw the buglist for NTFS on me, I will be very grateful. Sign the man up :-). FWIW, I think it would be really good if we could get active maintainers for more of the edge case file systems (i.e., not UFS, NFS) so that as the VFS work gets more active in HEAD, those file systems not only keep up, but also improve... Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 8 22:18:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D09D616A476 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 22:18:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx24.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F3D2313C469 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 22:18:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 10691 invoked by uid 399); 8 Feb 2008 22:18:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.0.8?) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTP; 8 Feb 2008 22:18:26 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 Message-ID: <47ACD532.2090206@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:18:26 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <20080208162231.R17387@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080208162231.R17387@fledge.watson.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Yar Tikhiy , Scot Hetzel , Jeff Roberson , Attilio Rao , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Eygene Ryabinkin Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 22:18:27 -0000 Robert Watson wrote: > > On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Eygene Ryabinkin wrote: > >>> - Are you interested in maintaining it? >> >> Yes. If you can throw the buglist for NTFS on me, I will be very >> grateful. > > Sign the man up :-). Sounds good to me. I've posted on -current several times since December with crash dumps, etc. I think the problem at this point is that we don't know what the bugs are, or else I suspect at least some of them would be fixed already. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 8 23:33:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B007516A418 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 23:33:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from speedfactory.net (mail.speedfactory.net [66.23.216.219]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B4E13C4CC for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 23:33:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (unverified [66.23.211.162]) by speedfactory.net (SurgeMail 3.8s) with ESMTP id 231307513-1834499 for ; Fri, 08 Feb 2008 18:33:26 -0500 Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m18NXE2Y019247 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 18:33:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: arch@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 18:02:54 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200802081802.54313.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 08 Feb 2008 18:33:14 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5744/Fri Feb 8 08:32:41 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Subject: [PATCH] Automatic kernel version module dependencies.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:33:20 -0000 So one of the things that people run into periodically are problems with mismatched kernels and modules. My understanding of our kernel module ABI compatibility is that if you build a module on in a X.Y build environment the module should work fine for all kernels with version X.Z where Z >= Y. In concrete terms, a module built on a 6.2 system is not guaranteed to work on a 6.1 kernel, a 5.2 kernel, or a 7.0 kernel. However, it should work fine on 6.2, 6.3, etc. The patch below implements this policy by create a 'kernel' module version based on __FreeBSD_version. It then adds a version dependency on 'kernel' in every kernel module that requires a version range starting with the current __FreeBSD_version and ending with the maximum __FreeBSD_version value for the current branch. This does seem to work in that a kernel module compiled with artificial values of __FreeBSD_version refuses to load when it violates the rule above (too old or wrong branch). One thing this doesn't fix is that right now the error from the kernel linker is simply that "kernel could not be found" or some such. It might be nicer if the error could be "module requires kernel version X to Y, but only Z was found", but that would be a separate patch. --- //depot/vendor/freebsd/src/sys/kern/kern_module.c 2007/12/06 23:12:58 +++ //depot/user/jhb/acpipci/kern/kern_module.c 2008/02/07 18:59:28 @@ -414,6 +414,8 @@ return (error); } +MODULE_VERSION(kernel, __FreeBSD_version); + #ifdef COMPAT_IA32 #include #include --- //depot/vendor/freebsd/src/sys/sys/module.h 2006/04/17 19:46:13 +++ //depot/user/jhb/acpipci/sys/module.h 2008/02/07 22:11:55 @@ -114,7 +114,20 @@ MODULE_METADATA(_md_##module##_on_##mdepend, MDT_DEPEND, \ &_##module##_depend_on_##mdepend, #mdepend) +/* + * Every kernel has a 'kernel' module with the version set to + * __FreeBSD_version. We embed a MODULE_DEPEND() inside every module + * that depends on the 'kernel' module. It uses the current value of + * __FreeBSD_version as the minimum and preferred versions. For the + * maximum version it rounds the version up to the end of its branch + * (i.e. M99999 for M.x). This allows a module built on M.x to work + * on M.y systems where y >= x, but fail on M.z systems where z < x. + */ +#define MODULE_KERNEL_MAXVER (roundup(__FreeBSD_version, 100000) - 1) + #define DECLARE_MODULE(name, data, sub, order) \ + MODULE_DEPEND(name, kernel, __FreeBSD_version, \ + __FreeBSD_version, MODULE_KERNEL_MAXVER); \ MODULE_METADATA(_md_##name, MDT_MODULE, &data, #name); \ SYSINIT(name##module, sub, order, module_register_init, &data) \ struct __hack -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 9 10:51:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB2816A417; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:51:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3116913C455; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:51:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8CFF2085; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:51:09 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.3/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EA12084; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:51:09 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9BB01844C2; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:51:09 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: John Baldwin References: <200802081802.54313.jhb@freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 11:51:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200802081802.54313.jhb@freebsd.org> (John Baldwin's message of "Fri\, 8 Feb 2008 18\:02\:54 -0500") Message-ID: <86sl02e736.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [PATCH] Automatic kernel version module dependencies.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 10:51:19 -0000 John Baldwin writes: > So one of the things that people run into periodically are problems > with mismatched kernels and modules. My understanding of our kernel > module ABI compatibility is that if you build a module on in a X.Y > build environment the module should work fine for all kernels with > version X.Z where Z >=3D Y. ...provided they were built from the same config... I think MUTEX_PROFILING has been fixed, but there may still be cases where the ABI changes dependening on kernel options. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 9 17:45:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C2F16A46C for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 17:45:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-arch@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 944B313C4F6 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 17:45:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-arch@m.gmane.org) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JNtl8-0008MX-Ok for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:45:02 +0000 Received: from www.creo.hu ([217.113.62.14]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:45:02 +0000 Received: from csaba-ml by www.creo.hu with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:45:02 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org From: Csaba Henk Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 17:39:06 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <70e8236f0802070321n9097d3fy1b39f637b3c2a06@mail.gmail.com> X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: www.creo.hu User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1 (FreeBSD) Sender: news Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:45:06 -0000 On 2008-02-07, Joao Barros wrote: > Yes if FUSE ntfs can have performance on par with the current ntfs support. Userspace components are LGPL / GPL licensed, kernel components are BSD licensed. Csaba From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 9 18:00:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E6816A419 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 18:00:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-arch@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949FB13C478 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 18:00:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-arch@m.gmane.org) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JNtzf-0000cH-0S for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 09 Feb 2008 18:00:03 +0000 Received: from www.creo.hu ([217.113.62.14]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 09 Feb 2008 18:00:03 +0000 Received: from csaba-ml by www.creo.hu with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 09 Feb 2008 18:00:03 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org From: Csaba Henk Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 17:51:36 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <1202395350.2126.14.camel@localhost> X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: www.creo.hu User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1 (FreeBSD) Sender: news Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 18:00:07 -0000 On 2008-02-07, martinko wrote: >> If the base NTFS support was axed, would the fuse-kmod, or equivalent, >> find its way into the base? It's now not far from the point where it could be included. > And what about puffs from NetBSD ? > Wouldn't it be better to import puffs and ReFUSE ? A PUFFS port probably would need more work than sort out the not too several issues with fuse4bsd. Csaba From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 9 19:59:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F8E16A469; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 19:59:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472AB13C45B; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 19:59:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10F12082; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 20:59:48 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.3/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED4B207F; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 20:59:48 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 120D78449D; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 20:59:48 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Csaba Henk References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <70e8236f0802070321n9097d3fy1b39f637b3c2a06@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 20:59:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Csaba Henk's message of "Sat\, 9 Feb 2008 17\:39\:06 +0000 \(UTC\)") Message-ID: <867ihdc34c.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:59:57 -0000 Csaba Henk writes: > Userspace components are LGPL / GPL licensed, kernel components are > BSD licensed. Are you planning to have both the kernel part and the userland part committed to base? How much work would you guess it would take to reimplement the userland part under a BSD license? DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 9 21:42:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2400316A41A for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 21:42:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.158]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 762C213C47E for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 21:42:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from asmrookie@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so3480800fgg.35 for ; Sat, 09 Feb 2008 13:42:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=dIo9OfBGPa0bD7CaoSePC9lM2FPZ72znfQnuYdGcY0s=; b=trJyEftHZ8a0yJtOIh0mOpmGassVNZb6uLLrN0MUEULc11McScBa5Qr1h1RLPmzcpAS/mrt80FLKHAprIIk6VHDrI+0qdMHlJwNaLIPiwp16AQPQncVbgcjK+KU7BF6b2mjsDvJ7pB8HHpVM4+DvUMcmrybE5u8VT6gVsN9JIm4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=pLEJcl4DbU7LMex4WS5msHYbN/B78xlz1aOBOVfRtvazPt7DLZx61FAIYJFdfVw290qxFehxiZ/2jwbm7LE3BGltiHg+mJbRAmndAcUi2iKc43ok4/VR/vj+ICyyyZ9Qrbb4Ujpz4FfR0UvHTJiqdOdSzYqtwlVw6FeUEBeHF9M= Received: by 10.86.4.2 with SMTP id 2mr2202809fgd.7.1202593347129; Sat, 09 Feb 2008 13:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.28.19 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 13:42:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3bbf2fe10802091342u189097cna04cbad8d0177efe@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 22:42:27 +0100 From: "Attilio Rao" Sender: asmrookie@gmail.com To: "Scot Hetzel" In-Reply-To: <790a9fff0802091338h4d2698d7v74fb029694bcf9bf@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <20080208162231.R17387@fledge.watson.org> <47ACD532.2090206@FreeBSD.org> <790a9fff0802091338h4d2698d7v74fb029694bcf9bf@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 49245fc8f2919dd9 Cc: Yar Tikhiy , Doug Barton , Jeff Roberson , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Robert Watson , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Eygene Ryabinkin Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 21:42:29 -0000 2008/2/9, Scot Hetzel : > On 2/8/08, Doug Barton wrote: > > Robert Watson wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Eygene Ryabinkin wrote: > > > > > >>> - Are you interested in maintaining it? > > >> > > >> Yes. If you can throw the buglist for NTFS on me, I will be very > > >> grateful. > > > > > > Sign the man up :-). > > > > > > Sounds good to me. I've posted on -current several times since > > December with crash dumps, etc. I think the problem at this point is > > that we don't know what the bugs are, or else I suspect at least some > > of them would be fixed already. > > > > I believe I have solved the panics with the NTFS filesystem by porting > the NetBSD lockmgr -> mutex locking changes to our NTFS filesystem > implementation. > > The locking changes are available in PR 120483 > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=120483 > > I have also submitted a style change PR which will allow us to easily > compare the NetBSD implementation to our NTFS implementation in PR > 120482: > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=120482 Scot, why didn't you modify the patch in a way it reduces diffs against our HEAD as I suggested privately? :( Attilio -- Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 9 22:02:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3EB716A496 for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 22:02:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.157]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 513AB13C46B for ; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 22:02:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swhetzel@gmail.com) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so3484889fgg.35 for ; Sat, 09 Feb 2008 14:02:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=H6gAETpq1rVv7MLHK6yFdMVA37TaJQAVarMT2cWLD3w=; b=qTPSz6/YIz8SThkjhhNwRLNlgzg29Z61Am3Rt9EMFIrzU8wg2vNmQdNfgDtWZ+XLmySuBOapQ7F5MzxrOQyk9ul2UZmFc5GixBXJPjwkiCOb0SD/qvb+bP6bdQbS/sag6k1c6rsMSPuCZOsMZ43YxIRpIQPlJU+aXeR+BJEl3w8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XMKZ2tQxZkBuitlSX33FGidVU8Uq9OumIDgs5zb2QQYkyvjZ4/Tf1YuoE4xXQA3/CcuUluGmPLWARISb+YFGakvFu8BCR2ib+2r56MEAJDMY/1iLbf6NcQTBow6YJdPpTb61ytnvQ/YdhxhzrlVDBdd5+f9uZQx5SddtST/vsBU= Received: by 10.86.70.8 with SMTP id s8mr13277536fga.29.1202593132153; Sat, 09 Feb 2008 13:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.99.17 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 13:38:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <790a9fff0802091338h4d2698d7v74fb029694bcf9bf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:38:52 -0600 From: "Scot Hetzel" To: "Eygene Ryabinkin" , "Doug Barton" In-Reply-To: <47ACD532.2090206@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <3bbf2fe10802061700p253e68b8s704deb3e5e4ad086@mail.gmail.com> <20080208162231.R17387@fledge.watson.org> <47ACD532.2090206@FreeBSD.org> Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Yar Tikhiy , Jeff Roberson , Attilio Rao , Robert Watson , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 22:02:53 -0000 On 2/8/08, Doug Barton wrote: > Robert Watson wrote: > > > > On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Eygene Ryabinkin wrote: > > > >>> - Are you interested in maintaining it? > >> > >> Yes. If you can throw the buglist for NTFS on me, I will be very > >> grateful. > > > > Sign the man up :-). > > > Sounds good to me. I've posted on -current several times since > December with crash dumps, etc. I think the problem at this point is > that we don't know what the bugs are, or else I suspect at least some > of them would be fixed already. > I believe I have solved the panics with the NTFS filesystem by porting the NetBSD lockmgr -> mutex locking changes to our NTFS filesystem implementation. The locking changes are available in PR 120483 http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=120483 I have also submitted a style change PR which will allow us to easily compare the NetBSD implementation to our NTFS implementation in PR 120482: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=120482 After the locking patch and style patch have been applied, all that is left is to review the remaining changes between the FreeBSD and NetBSD NTFS code to see if we should port additional fixes from NetBSD. Scot From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 9 23:09:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9494816A418; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 23:09:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from harmony.bsdimp.com (bsdimp.com [199.45.160.85]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5983813C455; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 23:09:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.bsdimp.com (8.14.2/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m19N52t7034681; Sat, 9 Feb 2008 16:05:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 16:08:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20080209.160817.168016724.imp@bsdimp.com> To: des@des.no From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <86sl02e736.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <200802081802.54313.jhb@freebsd.org> <86sl02e736.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [PATCH] Automatic kernel version module dependencies.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 23:09:58 -0000 In message: <86sl02e736.fsf@ds4.des.no> Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav writes: : John Baldwin writes: : > So one of the things that people run into periodically are problems= : > with mismatched kernels and modules. My understanding of our kerne= l : > module ABI compatibility is that if you build a module on in a X.Y : > build environment the module should work fine for all kernels with : > version X.Z where Z >=3D Y. : = : ...provided they were built from the same config... I think : MUTEX_PROFILING has been fixed, but there may still be cases where th= e : ABI changes dependening on kernel options. These are usually well documented. But I can't find any in the current doc set. Maybe you could point me at options that do this so we can document them (and maybe add a #warning when compiling with them)? Warner