From owner-freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 13 04:12:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4975216A417; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:12:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E0113C458; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:12:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id B249A8C0A0; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:12:40 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:12:40 -0600 To: Matthew Seaman Message-ID: <20080113041240.GA14666@soaustin.net> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net> <47889623.3090203@infracaninophile.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47889623.3090203@infracaninophile.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Coordination of the Problem Report handling effort." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:12:41 -0000 On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 10:27:47AM +0000, Matthew Seaman wrote: > As I understand it, I think the reason for this difference in performance > at resolving PRs is because there is a body of ports committers that > basically expect to spend a lot of time committing other people's work, > whereas src committers are generally focussed on their own projects and > tend to commit what they or people closely associated with them have > developed. That's partly it. However: - ports are far more "granular" than the base system. Although the occasional commits such as e.g. chasing shared library version bumps touch a lot of different areas, in general 80% of the commits are limited in scope. - because of this granularity, we assign a maintainer to each port. (Yes, only 75% of the ports are maintained, but never mind :-) ) - that allows us to identify, route, and auto-assign ports PRs via an add-on script that Edwin wrote. That sped up the turnaround time significantly. - probably 80% of the ports PRs are upgrades or things like fixes to scripts, options, etc. The other 20% are more like "doesn't work when you do foo" which is probably what 80% of the src PRs are. - there's a known regression-test suite (pointyhat) for the "easy" cases, and a feedback mechanism to alert people when things break. Identifying what parts of the base system will be affected by a particular patch is a little bit more tricky, but should be done. However, a large number of src PRs are "problem possibly touching multiple subsystems" or "system does not perform well" or "panic in unknown circumstances". In each of these cases, we need to enlist some people to work with these submitters. They don't necessarily need to be senior developers, but the need to be at least fairly experienced with such tools as kernel dump analysis, our build system, and so on. Right now all this gets handled via email, which is not really an ideal medium for quick feedback. And, the senior developers who generally respond to such things generally have enough to do as it is; there simply aren't enough of them to go around. Even if they did, not much development work would get done :-) In the past we've given 2 different people GNATS-only access as an experiement, as discussed in one of my other posts in this thread. I think the experiment has been a success and I'd like to build on that. mcl From owner-freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 13 04:14:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2831116A421; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:14:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F19F13C457; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:14:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id A24078C0A5; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:14:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:14:02 -0600 To: Erik Cederstrand Message-ID: <20080113041402.GB14666@soaustin.net> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net> <4788BFEB.9010207@cederstrand.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4788BFEB.9010207@cederstrand.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Coordination of the Problem Report handling effort." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:14:03 -0000 On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 02:26:03PM +0100, Erik Cederstrand wrote: > Giving PRs better categories and letting developers "subscribe" to > certain categories would let PRs instantly be brought to the attention > of a relevant developer, and make the bugs collection seem less > overwhelming. I think this is a good idea. An RSS feed ought to be part of whatever solution we come up with. I'll try to think about your ideas about the web pages. mcl From owner-freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 13 04:27:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D446716A419; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:27:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC97713C455; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:27:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 51A638C0AD; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:27:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:27:55 -0600 To: Peter Schuller Message-ID: <20080113042755.GE14666@soaustin.net> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net> <200801121924.10694.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200801121924.10694.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Coordination of the Problem Report handling effort." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:27:55 -0000 On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 07:24:02PM +0100, Peter Schuller wrote: > My experience (albeight with a smaller bug database) is that generally, as > soon as you expect people to manually poll some web site, things move more > slowly. Yeah, especially if the # of entries is overwhelming. I'm no human factors expert, but IIRC if you're showing someone more than ~20 entries to start with, it all just looks like noise. > Also related to this: it may just be me, but how does GNATS even handle > mailouts to begin with? I always get the initial response from GNATS that a > PR has been registered, but mostly I never see any automatic mailouts in > response to PR updates. If you're the originator, you should get Cc:s on followups -- *assuming* that the people responding are Cc:ing either "bug-followup@" or "freebsd-gnats-submit@" _and_ that they are responding to the response from GNATS that has the "Re: category/number: " magic string prepended. The latter problem might be fixed in latter versions of GNATS. I have not yet investigated. In the meantime, those emails show up in pending/ and I have to fix them :-) > Also, individual users being able to add themselves as an interested party (cc > in bugzilla speak, nosy in roundup speak, etc) to PR:s and such would help, > or configure per-user settings for mailout, etc. Right. I think that's key. There's no concept of that in the tools we have now. > I really don't want to start some kind of holy war on bug management software, > but I have to say that from the submitter POV I have always felt GNATS does > not seem to be the most flexible system around (except for what seems to be > very good E-Mail integration). It's a very dull stone axe that a determined person can use as a PR database. I can deal with its foolishness (being able to work on PRs without having to use a UI is a big win for me -- it's fast!), but I'm in a small minority. We need _something_, but I'm not going to run out and try one of the others "to see if it's better". I want to define our needs and then go see if anything fits it. mcl From owner-freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 13 08:20:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B8016A420 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 08:20:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ota@j.email.ne.jp) Received: from mail.asahi-net.or.jp (mail1.asahi-net.or.jp [202.224.39.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DD8713C468 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 08:20:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ota@j.email.ne.jp) Received: from localhost (pool-141-151-89-237.phlapa.east.verizon.net [141.151.89.237]) by mail.asahi-net.or.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FDAE3826E; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:20:13 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:20:03 -0500 From: Yoshihiro Ota To: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Message-Id: <20080113032003.b39da9c4.ota@j.email.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <20080111211644.GA6522@soaustin.net> References: <20071226.003547.-932932005.imp@bsdimp.com> <1198689316.1119.382.camel@Particle> <20071226180415.GA27409@soaustin.net> <20071226.114224.-432836428.imp@bsdimp.com> <18754.194.74.82.3.1198744988.squirrel@galain.elvandar.org> <20071228020749.b5fc0ab2.ota@j.email.ne.jp> <20080111211644.GA6522@soaustin.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org, "M. Warner Losh" Subject: Re: PR backlog X-BeenThere: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Coordination of the Problem Report handling effort." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 08:20:17 -0000 On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:16:44 -0600 linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) wrote: > On Fri, Dec 28, 2007 at 02:07:49AM -0500, Yoshihiro Ota wrote: > > I also opened the PR database a couple weeks ago looking for a solution > > to bugs I encountered. It's been quite long, some years, since I opened > > the PR page last time. It was surprising and also disappointing on > > the number of PRs left open for long time. > > > > How do I help that cleaning job? I am also interested fixing and > > concerned about this fact. > > I'm sorry that I have not responded to you earlier. I have been busy > doing some ports work. > > Please see the posting from Peter Schuller to > freebsd-current@freebsd.org: 200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com > (Subject: Improving the handling of PR:s.) He makes some excellent > observations and suggestions. I've gone ahead and replied to that posting > with some of my current thinking, both to current@ and bugbusters@. > > mcl > I am also behind e-mail after all of these postings, too. I read his opinions and agree with it in most of parts. The quality of commiters are not satisfactory even in the "quality over quantity" approach with the number of open PR's with patch supplied. I will scan email but am not interested in joining the discussion. However, let me know if conclusion ends up some way of seeking more helps. I can spare some time for 1. testing and verifying PR's with patches and/or 2. closing too old PR's with apologise to bug reporters. Some bug reports are already too old and lost their values. Hiro From owner-freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 13 19:35:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B40816A419 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:35:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622F213C44B for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:35:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 6DEB38C0A6; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:35:27 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:35:27 -0600 To: Yoshihiro Ota Message-ID: <20080113193527.GA10815@soaustin.net> References: <20071226.003547.-932932005.imp@bsdimp.com> <1198689316.1119.382.camel@Particle> <20071226180415.GA27409@soaustin.net> <20071226.114224.-432836428.imp@bsdimp.com> <18754.194.74.82.3.1198744988.squirrel@galain.elvandar.org> <20071228020749.b5fc0ab2.ota@j.email.ne.jp> <20080111211644.GA6522@soaustin.net> <20080113032003.b39da9c4.ota@j.email.ne.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080113032003.b39da9c4.ota@j.email.ne.jp> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org, "M. Warner Losh" Subject: Re: PR backlog X-BeenThere: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Coordination of the Problem Report handling effort." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:35:28 -0000 On Sun, Jan 13, 2008 at 03:20:03AM -0500, Yoshihiro Ota wrote: > let me know if conclusion ends up some way of seeking more help. > I can spare some time for 1. testing and verifying PR's with patches > and/or 2. closing too old PR's with apologise to bug reporters. The dicussion has moved forward (at least in the venue of the IRC channel) on how we can do exactly that. The newest idea is that we need to write up a guide on "how to walk a user through kernel debugging" so that we can have a group of people work with users, rather than having them send PRs that don't get processed. mcl From owner-freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 14 11:15:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-bugbusters@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA51816A473 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:15:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D474B13C4F3 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:15:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (linimon@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0EBF6OL062429 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:15:06 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from linimon@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.2/8.14.1/Submit) id m0EBF1wo062410 for freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:15:01 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:15:01 GMT Message-Id: <200801141115.m0EBF1wo062410@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: linimon set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: PRs recommended for committer evaluation by the bugbusting team X-BeenThere: freebsd-bugbusters@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-bugbusters@FreeBSD.org List-Id: "Coordination of the Problem Report handling effort." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:15:06 -0000 This is an experimental weekly posting from the bugbusting team containing PRs that we think are ready for evaluation by any interested committer. The idea is to try to match up people who are interested in going through the PRs with committers that are interested in helping. It is generated from the file /home/linimon/public_html/recommended.prs on freefall. This is intended to be a low-volume posting to see if we can get more people interested in bugbusting without being overwhelmed by the other weekly postings. Please give feedback on this report to linimon@FreeBSD.org. Thanks. 40516 freebsd- kern open non-criti medium current-us [ti] [patch] ti driver has no baudrate set 78728 freebsd- bin open non-criti low current-us [patch] ntpd -- noisy when IPv4 or IPv6 interfaces are undefined 84911 freebsd- bin open non-criti low current-us [patch] ndisgen(8) can't cope with .sys-files that begins with a number 102211 sos kern open serious high current-us [ar] [patch] detach raid member and reboot will cause panic (ICH7) 109494 matteo bin open non-criti low current-us [PATCH] ypserv(8): Add option to bind to specific port 113111 freebsd- amd64 analyzed non-criti low current-us [Makefile] [patch] Potentially wrong instructions will be produced for EM64T with default CFLAGS 119288 freebsd- kern open non-criti low current-us VERBOSE_SYSINIT is MFCed but bug-patch for it not