From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 17:30:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B2516A41A for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:30:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C4B13C448 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:30:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A7B46.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.123.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m0AHGGYS097617; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:16:17 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0AHHR20059152; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:17:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0AHHHmF068362; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:17:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> to: "Aryeh M. Friedman" From: "Julian Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com BSD Linux Unix Consultancy, Munich/Muenchen. User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:34:59 EST." <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:17:17 +0100 Sender: jhs@berklix.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:30:55 -0000 Please Discuss Licensing On chat@, Not current@ ! http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current This is the mailing list for users of freebsd-current. It includes warnings about new features coming out in -current that will affect the users, and instructions on steps that must be taken to remain -current. Anyone running "current" must subscribe to this list. http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat This list contains the overflow from the other lists about non-technical, social information. It includes discussion about whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether or not to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, where the best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their basement, and so on. Occasional announcements of important events (such as upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, etc) can be made to the technical lists, but the follow ups should be directed to this list. -- Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 18:04:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F52C16A478 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:04:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.176]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A1113C4EB for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:04:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id u52so1153565pyb.10 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:04:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=G98FodnNz9WR7U25GUaDYyZPe7mamSQC7nKIvErg5ho=; b=l3t6OwEgEzNE/oMRDM2jSXwl6PDj2LRzUrjBad57uKpQNHnn44LMjzjyI4YSXOVxMWjQSMpeHIEjO6+z284aoRQVAcsT37juyK4sdquov0cwrzZ6c029Vrq4Y9Wdco4Ze3iT8CUi+ZwheV4s0wMUsj6oBjPPGebnu8tb4OwAlnc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XFEdeeNoPBSyu0PLY1Lw2PUxFDDiG1I8HoDA36CzZBlF6M0t40fz/f+8M6KBsAEBDnmA4XALqJJXjFJ4K2CbxZcaINP46d0kZPqgaq33nXkrFfSQVCX9f6ikhpGxydbyIziwSi62+wkaE1MGI7RnjWQ5pHXPnbt+B2tuDkB4ZlA= Received: by 10.65.156.2 with SMTP id i2mr4791509qbo.60.1199986622407; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:37:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.105.13 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:37:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:37:02 -0500 From: "Aryeh Friedman" To: "Julian Stacey" In-Reply-To: <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> Cc: chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:04:21 -0000 On Jan 10, 2008 12:17 PM, Julian Stacey wrote: > Please Discuss Licensing On chat@, Not current@ ! > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > > This is the mailing list for users of freebsd-current. It includes > warnings about new features coming out in -current that will affect > the users, and instructions on steps that must be taken to remain > -current. Anyone running "current" must subscribe to this list. > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > > This list contains the overflow from the other lists about > non-technical, social information. It includes discussion about > whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether or not > to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, where the > best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their basement, and > so on. Occasional announcements of important events (such as > upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, etc) can be made > to the technical lists, but the follow ups should be directed to > this list. Small note I have already stated several times in the thread why this is not in -chat@ > -- > Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 00:15:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727C916A419; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:15:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB94213C45B; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:15:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A719D.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.113.157]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m0B0FRgG099478; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:15:38 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0B0FL0r062281; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:15:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0B0GNP4080451; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:16:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> To: "Aryeh Friedman" In-reply-to: References: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> Comments: In-reply-to "Aryeh Friedman" message dated "Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:37:02 -0500." Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:16:23 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:15:41 -0000 "Aryeh Friedman" wrote: > On Jan 10, 2008 12:17 PM, Julian Stacey wrote: > > Please Discuss Licensing On chat@, Not current@ ! > > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > > > > This is the mailing list for users of freebsd-current. It includes > > warnings about new features coming out in -current that will affect > > the users, and instructions on steps that must be taken to remain > > -current. Anyone running "current" must subscribe to this list. > > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > > > > This list contains the overflow from the other lists about > > non-technical, social information. It includes discussion about > > whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether or not > > to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, where the > > best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their basement, and > > so on. Occasional announcements of important events (such as > > upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, etc) can be made > > to the technical lists, but the follow ups should be directed to > > this list. > > Small note I have already stated several times in the thread why this > is not in -chat@ No excuse. Abuse of current@ list remit may annoy people to request postmaster@ to remove abuser. Better: - Find another forum, perhaps already existing but not on @freebsd.org, Or - Use chat@freebsd, Or - Ask postmaster@freebsd to create a list for those who want it, eg: law@freebsd remit: "Licensing, Copyright, Law, Software Patents" -- Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 01:15:24 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB7F16A418 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:15:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: from mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1DC13C455 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:15:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: (qmail 20370 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 01:15:24 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 11 Jan 2008 01:15:23 -0000 Message-ID: <4786C248.1030503@chuckr.org> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:11:36 -0500 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071107) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <89916.1199966906@critter.freebsd.dk> <47861705.2030609@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <47861705.2030609@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:15:24 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 redirected to -chat. Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> In message <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" >> writes: > >>>> We need more licenses like we need a 3rd or 4th leg. What is >>>> wrong with the standard BSD license please? >>> I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply.... >> I am fully with Wilko here. > >> We don't need to change the license or use any other means to beat >> our users over the head. > >> We need them to understand the problem, and act as intelligent >> human beings. > >> A lot of our users do this. We have many crucial FreeBSD >> developers employed at companies which understand that developer >> support is key to FreeBSDs future. > >> We just need more of that. You know, there's more than one way to see that. I clearly recall being elated, at first, when I was first employed to do FreeBSD kernel work. I did that, and a bunch of daemon work, and (like I often do, for work) I got heavily into it, nearly to the exclusion of all available hobby time (I really do like messing with computers). You know what happened? I found I had no time left, at all, for hobby FreeBSD work and I even left the mailing lists. I didn't leave FreeBSD work, but as far as you folks were concerned, I might as well have. As far as I'm concerned, I think that getting employed to do FreeBSD work is one great way to stop doing hobby computing. Am I alone in this? And beyond that, the work I was doing was stuff that the FreeBSD community wouldn't have been terribly interested in. Yes, the company could have showed a touch more *give back to the community* sort of actions, but they wren['t really the reason that I left FreeBSD; I was. Am I alone in this? > > We also need to have better avenues for people who want to contribute > but do not have the economic means to subsidize there work from some > large company, gov. agency and/or university... i.e. there is no room > for independent people to contribute on a full time basis... > > As I said in an other message this is not about saying the current has > anything wrong with it, just that it can be improved. > > Volunteer efforts are great and I fully support them (such as my work > on ports 2.0) but the larger they grow the harder it gets to do it all > volunteer (every large non-profit has paid full-time employees after > all)... to paraphrase an other organization I am involved in we should > "be completely self supporting through our own ....contributions"... > this includes more then just service it includes supporting those who > do such service... > > BTW as to the single sentence that would recitify this in the bsd > license it would be something as simple as: > > "Execution of covered work in any form may be conditioned to > payment fees (if any) and/or performing work in kind detailed at > http://......". > > The "(if any)" wording is important because the licensor (FreeBSD) > can elect to charge nothing but require work in kind for example. > The actual amount of the fee and or works can be very small for such a > large project like FreeBSD (less then $5/year) to make it 100% self > supporting [no donations needed]. > > _______________________________________________ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhsJIz62J6PPcoOkRAlnXAJ0expXdjt239MtUKyh+HYxS1Df67QCeJ4Qr MEY8DMk2LaYeiX68hmp2EjE= =U9Oh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 01:21:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2096016A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:21:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: from mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2122D13C47E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:21:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: (qmail 24884 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 01:21:42 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 11 Jan 2008 01:21:42 -0000 Message-ID: <4786C3C2.8080902@chuckr.org> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:17:54 -0500 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071107) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com> <42af13c0754be09eaa392751df755d02@localhost> <47861466.5000508@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <47861466.5000508@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Marian Hettwer , Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:21:43 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > Marian Hettwer wrote: >> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:46:23 -0500, "Aryeh M. Friedman" >> wrote: >>> I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply.... >>> >>> One thing that FOSS (BSD or GPL) has historical had issues doing >>> cleanly is seperating free software from free beer. The first >>> being a very important goal and the second a unfair side effect >>> of thinking that open source by definition means free use of the >>> products. Yes the source should be avaible to everyone but as >>> far I can tell that does not automatically and should not >>> translate into not having some responibility to the community >>> that created the project in the first place.... my approach >>> (along with 3 other small software vendors) is to have a >>> requirement to contribute back to the community in some form (in >>> work or help support those doing the work), namely it is free >>> software but not free beer. >>> >> Please stop this. FreeBSD is BSD licenced and if you want to start >> another holy war about wether this is good or bad, do it on >> freebsd-chat. Or even better, stop here, right now. > > a) I didn't start the thread and was keeping my comments to a min. > > b) Contrary to it's charter -chat@ really is nothing except for a > flame redirect location (thus as far I can tell almost no one reads > seriously it) > Two points: first, folks read it. As crazy as it sounds, people actually read even the FreeBSD-test channel, where folks are directed *NOT* to read it. Want proof? Post something morally objectionable there (try praising M$) and see how fast the hatemail starts up. Its stupid, but true. Secondly, Even If It's True that one one reads it, it's flames: do you really think the topic is worth better handling than that? IMO most flames are written for the flamer, not the reader, so it might as well be sent to your neighborhood bathroom wall. BTW, I did redirect this to -chat. >> This really has nothing to do with the thread itself and with this >> mailing list in special. > > As two your second point see item b above. As to the first point the > OP was complaining about very nebulous (but important) issues which I > feel are symptomatic the larger issues I pointed out; thus even though > it is not 100% on the actual complaints it is still an attempt to look > at correcting them. > > - From previous experiences (both mine of others) the FreeBSD community > tends to be way too conservative (yes it is good to be conservative > but to the level we do it is pathological in some respects). For > example I think it is clear that some work needs to be done to improve > the ports system and I stepped up to volunteer to do most of the heavy > lifting (with two others helping) and on -ports@ got never ending > grief from people who thought that if it is not completely broke don't > fix it. BTW when I was referring to other peoples experiences, one of > my former bosses was one of the people who worked very hard to bring > 386bsd to the masses (not Bill) and they turned me onto FreeBSD in the > mid-90's... they no longer use any BSD because it was unable to keep > pace with linux in areas they considered critical. > > I happen to be situated (extremely luckily given my general econ > condition) to be able to volunteer with the ports 2.0 effort (it > serves some of the long term goals of my company in ways that leave me > with being more comfortable with giving away some free beer). This > is not the case for some people and corporate support rarely helps > recruit/retain such people (the reason is out of the scope of this > thread). > > In short I am not saying there is anything wrong with the current > model just that it can be improved and my experience with ports 2.0 > has convienced me that a certain segment of the community is just too > closed minded to even consider anything that is not already done. > >> Thanks. > > To avoid this a list to discuss the business/legal aspects of FreeBSD > would be a good thing. > > _______________________________________________ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhsPCz62J6PPcoOkRAmZAAJ9/WztM/g08odMcLBF6E25oV4uzoACgoU/U 1gkRD6MMUoBZlkxmwaP84zU= =GwWY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 01:46:03 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF2A16A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:46:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: from mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D154913C44B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:46:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: (qmail 20006 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 01:46:03 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 11 Jan 2008 01:46:03 -0000 Message-ID: <4786C978.5070605@chuckr.org> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:42:16 -0500 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071107) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Julian H. Stacey" References: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Aryeh Friedman Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:46:03 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Julian H. Stacey wrote: > "Aryeh Friedman" wrote: >> On Jan 10, 2008 12:17 PM, Julian Stacey wrote: >>> Please Discuss Licensing On chat@, Not current@ ! >>> >>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >>> >>> This is the mailing list for users of freebsd-current. It includes >>> warnings about new features coming out in -current that will affect >>> the users, and instructions on steps that must be taken to remain >>> -current. Anyone running "current" must subscribe to this list. >>> >>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >>> >>> This list contains the overflow from the other lists about >>> non-technical, social information. It includes discussion about >>> whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether or not >>> to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, where the >>> best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their basement, and >>> so on. Occasional announcements of important events (such as >>> upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, etc) can be made >>> to the technical lists, but the follow ups should be directed to >>> this list. >> Small note I have already stated several times in the thread why this >> is not in -chat@ > > No excuse. Abuse of current@ list remit may annoy people to > request postmaster@ to remove abuser. Better: > - Find another forum, perhaps already existing but not on @freebsd.org, Or > - Use chat@freebsd, Or > - Ask postmaster@freebsd to create a list for those who want it, eg: > law@freebsd remit: "Licensing, Copyright, Law, Software Patents" God, this one in particular incenses me. "No one listens to me when they know it's me talking, so I want to swindle folks into believing that I'm of sane mind, and get them to waste their precious hobby time on my blither. My right to bother them comes before their right not to listen, and honestly be damned." "If I went to the list that pre-announces that its only idiots like me, no one would be tricked into wasting their time with me. Clearly, I deserve your time. I will follow your list guidelines only when they force everyone to listen to me. Rules are for lower life-forms, anyways." (BTW, I can get away with this, legally, on chat, which is where this went. You'll know who it was aimed at by noticing who it is who responds loudest to it.) It's not the first time that particular person has told me he won't follow list rules because no one reads it otherwise. Beware, I still have that mail! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhsl3z62J6PPcoOkRAlRVAKCVhw10/2oCWBh6dnD0yL4XSsSOKACeNIea 25qARf/hSPgXXmrOExKvAJI= =Dr0i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 01:59:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DBCE16A4A6 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:59:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: from mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E8313C45A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:59:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: (qmail 5457 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 01:32:52 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 11 Jan 2008 01:32:52 -0000 Message-ID: <4786C660.40103@chuckr.org> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:29:04 -0500 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071107) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Stacey References: <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: chat@freebsd.org, "Aryeh M. Friedman" Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:59:32 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Julian Stacey wrote: > Please Discuss Licensing On chat@, Not current@ ! > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > > This is the mailing list for users of freebsd-current. It includes > warnings about new features coming out in -current that will affect > the users, and instructions on steps that must be taken to remain > -current. Anyone running "current" must subscribe to this list. > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > > This list contains the overflow from the other lists about > non-technical, social information. It includes discussion about > whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether or not > to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, where the > best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their basement, and > so on. Occasional announcements of important events (such as > upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, etc) can be made > to the technical lists, but the follow ups should be directed to > this list. what wee need is a rule, that if you demand folks should move the thread to such-and-such a list, that YOU ACTUALLY DO THAT. I will admit, Julian, you came closest, you at least posted to -chat, would have been pretty good, if only you'd removed -current before you sent it. Why do folks always insist on the other fellow do what you won't do? I mean, it's not embarrassing, it should be easy to do, shouldn't it? But there's been about a half-dozen or more requests on this very thread, to move it to -chat, but no-one seems able to do it. Huh? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhsZgz62J6PPcoOkRAursAJ9AEhS8c+loBT684IsL4mQYF6CMlACfV8z/ uyB1mCbzsnbV4oGvFC9SBZk= =pXAQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 04:53:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9D116A46D for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:53:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Peter.Ross@alumni.tu-berlin.de) Received: from mail.lonelyplanet.com.au (mail.lonelyplanet.com.au [203.166.32.192]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B59413C47E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:53:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Peter.Ross@alumni.tu-berlin.de) Received: from Garuda.lpint.net ([10.61.0.88]) by mail.lonelyplanet.com.au with InterScan Message Security Suite; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:22:54 +1100 Received: from klein.bigpond.com ([10.61.20.74]) by Garuda.lpint.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:22:53 +1100 Received: from klein.bigpond.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])by klein.bigpond.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0B4NWe1002980; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:23:32 +1100 (EST)(envelope-from Peter.Ross@alumni.tu-berlin.de) Received: from localhost (petros@localhost)by klein.bigpond.com (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) with ESMTP id m0B4NTkM002977;Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:23:31 +1100 (EST)(envelope-from Peter.Ross@alumni.tu-berlin.de) X-Authentication-Warning: klein.bigpond.com: petros owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:23:29 +1100 (EST) From: Peter Ross X-X-Sender: petros@klein.bigpond.com To: jrh29@alumni.cwru.edu In-Reply-To: <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> Message-ID: <20080111115804.T2095@klein.bigpond.com> References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110154737.GA20976@soaustin.net><47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <20080110170010.GA16567@volatile.engineering.cwru.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2008 04:22:53.0553 (UTC) FILETIME=[A25D6E10:01C85409] X-imss-version: 2.049 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scanInfo: M:P L:E SM:0 X-imss-tmaseResult: TT:0 TS:0.0000 TC:00 TRN:0 TV:5.0.1023(15660.002) X-imss-scores: Clean:63.99772 C:2 M:3 S:5 R:5 X-imss-settings: Baseline:2 C:1 M:2 S:2 R:1 (0.1500 0.1500) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:53:09 -0000 Hi all, I hate to pollute the list with the policy/licence "flood". So I am happy to send it to -chat too and continue there if you do not mind. I do not think FreeBSD has a license issue. It has a visibility issue, maybe. By change I speak German so I could read the original BSDforen.de thread. Many think of FreeBSD in terms of a "vanilla" Intel/AMD desktop OS only, and while it's not that popular here (and has some shortcomings there - most are related to missing or outdated drivers for consumer hardware or things like Flashplugin etc.), they consider FreeBSD as fading. I think it would be good to raise awareness of the widespread usage of FreeBSD and *BSD based/derived products where the code works silently under the hood, at Juniper, Cisco, Apple, ISPs etc. I think it is in the interest of the stakeholders to advocate FreeBSD. FreeBSD needs to look "cool" and alive to attract developers. There are many ways dependent on the stakeholder in question. A Mac that shows for a second a small FreeBSD mascot while booting, a Juniper that has it on the administration login.. (ask for it if you are working there;-) .. and a place obvious and easy to spot on the FreeBSD main page. (E.g. a title bar with small icons of them "... proudly using FreeBSD" or whatever) Even a lot of IT folk I am work with do not know how widely used FreeBSD is, and the media adds a fair share. E.g. I remember an article in a computer magazine about NAS appliances sub-titled "Windows or Linux" where only the fineprint in the table comparing 10 products showed that half of the "Linux" solutions were based on FreeBSD. Just my 2 Cents. Peter From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 05:02:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED5D16A421 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:02:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E756C13C506 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:02:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUG00AQXRBL3NI0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:02:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B523M6053193; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:02:04 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:02:03 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <4786C248.1030503@chuckr.org> To: Chuck Robey Message-id: <4786F84B.4050701@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <89916.1199966906@critter.freebsd.dk> <47861705.2030609@gmail.com> <4786C248.1030503@chuckr.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:02:11 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Chuck Robey wrote: > redirected to -chat. I just do reply all's so it goes where it goes... For a more complete set of answers to the below issues see: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=1424092+0+current/freebsd-current > > Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: >> Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>> In message <4786058F.8080101@gmail.com>, "Aryeh M. Friedman" >>> writes: >>>>> We need more licenses like we need a 3rd or 4th leg. What >>>>> is wrong with the standard BSD license please? >>>> I decided to elaborate slightly on the previous reply.... >>> I am fully with Wilko here. We don't need to change the license >>> or use any other means to beat our users over the head. We need >>> them to understand the problem, and act as intelligent human >>> beings. A lot of our users do this. We have many crucial >>> FreeBSD developers employed at companies which understand that >>> developer support is key to FreeBSDs future. We just need more >>> of that. > > You know, there's more than one way to see that. I clearly recall > being elated, at first, when I was first employed to do FreeBSD > kernel work. I did that, and a bunch of daemon work, and (like I > often do, for work) I got heavily into it, nearly to the exclusion > of all available hobby time (I really do like messing with > computers). You know what happened? I found I had no time left, > at all, for hobby FreeBSD work and I even left the mailing lists. > I didn't leave FreeBSD work, but as far as you folks were > concerned, I might as well have. As far I know I am not purposing a system where you *MUST* recieve a reward for your work just where it is possible via more direct means then currently handled. > > As far as I'm concerned, I think that getting employed to do > FreeBSD work is one great way to stop doing hobby computing. Am I > alone in this? And beyond that, the work I was doing was stuff > that the FreeBSD community wouldn't have been terribly interested > in. Yes, the company could have showed a touch more *give back to > the community* sort of actions, but they wren['t really the reason > that I left FreeBSD; I was. > > Am I alone in this? But forcing everyone to do it as a hobby unless your "lucky" enough to work for an employer who supports the efforts is equal wrong. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhvhLjRvRjGmHRgQRAhQbAJ0dKUYrGlVKJ0CNJBC/yy7hmFEEWACgmtjE CvQh/CUtcGOrht3PvpFDFRE= =kwq8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 05:26:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9528816A41B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:26:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A9A13C45A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:26:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUG00AL0R1U3NI0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B4uHje053178; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:56:17 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:56:17 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> To: "Julian H. Stacey" Message-id: <4786F6F1.9020609@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:26:19 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Julian H. Stacey wrote: > "Aryeh Friedman" wrote: >> On Jan 10, 2008 12:17 PM, Julian Stacey wrote: >>> Please Discuss Licensing On chat@, Not current@ ! >>> >>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >>> >>> This is the mailing list for users of freebsd-current. It >>> includes warnings about new features coming out in -current >>> that will affect the users, and instructions on steps that must >>> be taken to remain -current. Anyone running "current" must >>> subscribe to this list. >>> >>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >>> >>> This list contains the overflow from the other lists about >>> non-technical, social information. It includes discussion about >>> whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether or not >>> to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, where >>> the best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their basement, >>> and so on. Occasional announcements of important events (such >>> as upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, etc) can be >>> made to the technical lists, but the follow ups should be >>> directed to this list. >> Small note I have already stated several times in the thread why >> this is not in -chat@ > > No excuse. Abuse of current@ list remit may annoy people to > request postmaster@ to remove abuser. Better: - Find another > forum, perhaps already existing but not on @freebsd.org, Or If the target audience is the freebsd community it would be impossible with a different forum. > - Use chat@freebsd, Or Already explained > - Ask postmaster@freebsd to create a list for those who want it, > eg: law@freebsd remit: "Licensing, Copyright, Law, Software > Patents" I have suggested that and most people seem to see no need to for it thus we are left with inapporiate forums... also if such a forum was created it should also include business issues (not just legal because the two are intertwined) - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhvbxjRvRjGmHRgQRAsFLAKCuDUClVUDQ0jKOM0VAQKs3IbM55QCfctLe 1PEvxl6gqHspXEqI8XUnMMA= =yHVu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 05:32:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC1B16A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:32:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF0313C455 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:32:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: from 5aca3c8f.bb.sky.com ([90.202.60.143] helo=access2.hanley.stade.co.uk) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.275) id 4786f646.158dd.2d for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:53:26 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk (steerpike [192.168.1.10]) by access2.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0B4rP17080295 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:53:25 GMT (envelope-from aw1@steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk) Received: from steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B4rOfQ078168 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:53:24 GMT (envelope-from aw1@steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m0B4rOR0078163 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:53:24 GMT (envelope-from aw1) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:53:24 +0000 From: Adrian Wontroba To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080111045324.GA25464@steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Adrian Wontroba , chat@freebsd.org References: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> <4786C978.5070605@chuckr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4786C978.5070605@chuckr.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE Organization: Oh dear, I've joined one again. X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5473/Thu Jan 10 23:56:40 2008 on access2.hanley.stade.co.uk X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92/5473/Thu Jan 10 23:56:40 2008 on steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:32:49 -0000 On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 08:42:16PM -0500, Chuck Robey wrote: > (about the hijacked current@ thread) For the first time in years I was tempted to use a kill file to suppress a poster entirely, and semi automatic marking of threads as read. For now, I'm glad I didn't as, much like sand irritates an oyster into producing pearls, an annoyingly persistent poster has provoked interesting views and ideas from others. Some of which with luck might be taken up. However, much more of this abuse of current@ will make me change my mind. Some people really do seem to have far too much time on their hands. Shades of JM Jr? -- Adrian Wontroba Friction is a drag. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 05:34:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949CC16A418 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:34:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.198]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 781F513C455 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:34:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUG00KQKRFBCPI0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:04:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0B54NUp053206; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:04:23 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:04:23 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <4786C978.5070605@chuckr.org> To: Chuck Robey Message-id: <4786F8D7.9000403@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> <4786C978.5070605@chuckr.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: "Julian H. Stacey" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:34:25 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Chuck Robey wrote: > Julian H. Stacey wrote: >> "Aryeh Friedman" wrote: >>> On Jan 10, 2008 12:17 PM, Julian Stacey >>> wrote: >>>> Please Discuss Licensing On chat@, Not current@ ! >>>> >>>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >>>> >>>> This is the mailing list for users of freebsd-current. It >>>> includes warnings about new features coming out in -current >>>> that will affect the users, and instructions on steps that >>>> must be taken to remain -current. Anyone running "current" >>>> must subscribe to this list. >>>> >>>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >>>> >>>> This list contains the overflow from the other lists about >>>> non-technical, social information. It includes discussion >>>> about whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether >>>> or not to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, >>>> where the best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their >>>> basement, and so on. Occasional announcements of important >>>> events (such as upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, >>>> etc) can be made to the technical lists, but the follow ups >>>> should be directed to this list. >>> Small note I have already stated several times in the thread >>> why this is not in -chat@ >> No excuse. Abuse of current@ list remit may annoy people to >> request postmaster@ to remove abuser. Better: - Find another >> forum, perhaps already existing but not on > @freebsd.org, Or >> - Use chat@freebsd, Or - Ask postmaster@freebsd to create a list >> for those who want it, eg: law@freebsd remit: "Licensing, >> Copyright, Law, Software > Patents" > > God, this one in particular incenses me. "No one listens to me > when they know it's me talking, so I want to swindle folks into > believing that I'm of sane mind, and get them to waste their > precious hobby time on my blither. My right to bother them comes > before their right not to listen, and honestly be damned." > > "If I went to the list that pre-announces that its only idiots like > me, no one would be tricked into wasting their time with me. > Clearly, I deserve your time. I will follow your list guidelines > only when they force everyone to listen to me. Rules are for lower > life-forms, anyways." > > (BTW, I can get away with this, legally, on chat, which is where > this went. You'll know who it was aimed at by noticing who it is > who responds loudest to it.) It's not the first time that > particular person has told me he won't follow list rules because no > one reads it otherwise. Beware, I still have that mail! And if you remember I asked specifically for all replies to go to the approriate list - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHhvjXjRvRjGmHRgQRAtEMAKC0L76xAnir8tuTS+guFNhZjwgCUACfdJb2 HlqkrpOWFOKrZAwI+oA95Nc= =nsnR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:27:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7CD16A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:27:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F7F13C43E for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:27:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH00FUG6EK4RG0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BARsc5011722; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:27:55 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:27:54 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <86ejcofyp3.fsf@ds4.des.no> To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= Message-id: <478744AA.2010104@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> <4786C660.40103@chuckr.org> <86ejcofyp3.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Chuck Robey , Julian Stacey , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:27:57 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Chuck Robey writes: >> what wee need is a rule, that if you demand folks should move the >> thread to such-and-such a list, that YOU ACTUALLY DO THAT. I >> will admit, Julian, you came closest, you at least posted to >> -chat, would have been pretty good, if only you'd removed >> -current before you sent it. Why do folks always insist on the >> other fellow do what you won't do? > > SOP is to Bcc: the old list and mention the move at the top of your > email. A very good purposal was made on the -current@ portion of the thread to make a -legal@ list... as the OP said there it is more then just this issue there are other legal issues that have nothing to do with this thread there are other "more" legit issues (see their post for details)... hopefully for everyone's sanity the list does get made. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh0SqjRvRjGmHRgQRAjo9AKCpNIc+ynXtz5OiiFom+Itnw7loYwCgp08P z7iLuJ0+zUsonc6sf/cmcos= =KHjj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:39:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 418C616A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:39:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0052413C478 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:39:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A41209C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:23:21 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 799D52049; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:23:20 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 550DF844AF; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:23:20 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Chuck Robey References: <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> <4786C660.40103@chuckr.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:23:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4786C660.40103@chuckr.org> (Chuck Robey's message of "Thu\, 10 Jan 2008 20\:29\:04 -0500") Message-ID: <86ejcofyp3.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Julian Stacey , "Aryeh M. Friedman" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:39:53 -0000 Chuck Robey writes: > what wee need is a rule, that if you demand folks should move the thread = to > such-and-such a list, that YOU ACTUALLY DO THAT. I will admit, Julian, y= ou > came closest, you at least posted to -chat, would have been pretty good, = if > only you'd removed -current before you sent it. Why do folks always insi= st > on the other fellow do what you won't do? SOP is to Bcc: the old list and mention the move at the top of your email. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:57:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1837F16A46C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:57:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3BED13C46A; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:57:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C18F209C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:56:56 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04762099; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:56:55 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D4D22844AF; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:56:55 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Timo Schoeler References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:56:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> (Timo Schoeler's message of "Thu\, 10 Jan 2008 21\:59\:31 +0100") Message-ID: <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "Paul B. Mahol" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:57:06 -0000 [moved from -current to -chat] Timo Schoeler writes: > Part of the discussion on bsdforen.de was some people complaining that > parts of the base system (as well as [important] ports) do not work, > and are maintained very badly due to 'no interest'. Those people clearly don't understand the FreeBSD development model. This "no interest" bit is completely fundamental. Code gets written by the people who have an interest in it, either because they need it themselves, or because they find it intellectually satisfying, or because someone donated unsupported hardware, or because someone paid them to do it. Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned txp(4) as an example of unmaintained code in the base system. It is a very good example of the above. It was ported from OpenBSD seven years ago by someone who was paid by his employer to do it, and had access to hardware and documentation. I doubt anyone else in the project does, because the hardware it supports is obsolete (it was discontinued five years ago), and was not widely used even when new. > FreeBSD seems to decay from release to release; don't get me wrong, I > *do* like new features, enhances SMP, ZFS, all this stuff, no problem. > *BUT* please don't forget the basis. It wouldn't surprise me if ls(1) > doesn't work when 8.0 is released. You're over-dramatizing; I hope you don't really believe in what you just wrote, because it's completely wrong and unjustified. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 10:59:18 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DCD316A468; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:59:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5844713C4DD; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:59:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A812099; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:59:14 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31E0207E; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:59:13 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 98321844AF; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:59:13 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> <20080111092015.GA17702@freebie.xs4all.nl> <478735A5.7050307@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:59:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: <478735A5.7050307@gmail.com> (Aryeh M. Friedman's message of "Fri\, 11 Jan 2008 04\:23\:49 -0500") Message-ID: <863at4fx1a.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:59:18 -0000 [moved to -chat from -current] "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: > If one never tries to change something then it will never get changed > and dismissing something as impossible from the get go is the hight of > close mindiness (which everyone is accusing me of when the fact is I > was not the one that started using dishonest debating methods) The fall of the USSR proved you wrong. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 11:10:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F8116A420 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:10:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18DB713C458 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:10:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH00DFC8E9C5R0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:10:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BBAuZ6011801; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:10:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:10:56 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <863at4fx1a.fsf@ds4.des.no> To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= Message-id: <47874EC0.8000506@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> <20080111092015.GA17702@freebie.xs4all.nl> <478735A5.7050307@gmail.com> <863at4fx1a.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:10:59 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > [moved to -chat from -current] > > "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: >> If one never tries to change something then it will never get >> changed and dismissing something as impossible from the get go is >> the hight of close mindiness (which everyone is accusing me of >> when the fact is I was not the one that started using dishonest >> debating methods) > > The fall of the USSR proved you wrong. Which was a response to a completely off the wall arg... as I have said this really should be moved to the newly purposed list. > > DES - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh07AjRvRjGmHRgQRAiWpAJ9nqCJUYongSWvEtA7r5Kqeb/8QSwCeK+vT nG2mWmr3cYGVwE8OGFPXENk= =RkTC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 11:12:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69DCD16A417; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:12:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231DB13C455; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:12:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5255620BB; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:12:42 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5B420B9; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:12:42 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 20E5384490; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:12:42 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <1364.1200005306@critter.freebsd.dk> <4786F66A.5010003@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:12:42 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4786F66A.5010003@gmail.com> (Aryeh M. Friedman's message of "Thu\, 10 Jan 2008 23\:54\:02 -0500") Message-ID: <86tzlkehud.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:12:54 -0000 [moved to -chat from -current] "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: > 2. Should we rely largely on donations (both small and large)? Oh, goodie! I get to whip out my favorite rant! Actually, I'm too lazy to retype it, so here's a link to the last time I used it: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2007-April/070607.html DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 12:37:32 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1544D16A418 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:37:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (nagual.pp.ru [194.87.13.69]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727E313C442 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:37:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (ache@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nagual.pp.ru (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BCQac3080575; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:26:36 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nagual.pp.ru; s=default; t=1200054396; bh=JyStmZFVX83C+VLep/w0oLHj43RnHweh5mMmD65 ypVE=; l=725; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To: References:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition: In-Reply-To:User-Agent; b=kd916wv/Gv3cFSNitOmXHkmyMkOf+BUHM1zfU9sZ xU3/zH0G+9M0F7X0Iv+YP/tsA90VOCv4ZVBkcWuh+mREuyT7Mt8Dd5ec5aBxRbSWXrg ihI5suzTr1iD8UYBqIIR1VgDOvUS94aCqswgWw/c1NafWTDZZ+WyxoFfPbxKwQUY= Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m0BCQajp080574; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:26:36 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from ache) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:26:35 +0300 From: Andrey Chernov To: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav Message-ID: <20080111122635.GA80432@nagual.pp.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Andrey Chernov , Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , "Aryeh M. Friedman" , Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dominic Fandrey References: <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> <20080111092015.GA17702@freebie.xs4all.nl> <478735A5.7050307@gmail.com> <863at4fx1a.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <863at4fx1a.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , "Aryeh M. Friedman" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dominic Fandrey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:37:32 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 11:59:13AM +0100, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > [moved to -chat from -current] > > "Aryeh M. Friedman" writes: > > If one never tries to change something then it will never get changed > > and dismissing something as impossible from the get go is the hight of > > close mindiness (which everyone is accusing me of when the fact is I > > was not the one that started using dishonest debating methods) > > The fall of the USSR proved you wrong. The fall of the USSR happens because of USA-funded dissidents crowd wants to "improve" default USSR license :) Is Aryeh funded by Microsoft? :) -- http://ache.pp.ru/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 13:02:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FADF16A481 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:02:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.198]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC84613C4CE for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:02:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH00K9GDJJE8O0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BD22KI000362; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:02:03 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:02:02 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080111122635.GA80432@nagual.pp.ru> To: Andrey Chernov , Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , "Aryeh M. Friedman" , Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dominic Fandrey Message-id: <478768CA.2000401@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> <20080111092015.GA17702@freebie.xs4all.nl> <478735A5.7050307@gmail.com> <863at4fx1a.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111122635.GA80432@nagual.pp.ru> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:02:11 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > Is Aryeh funded by Microsoft? :) There are more direct ways to ruin FOSS then what I am purposing... for example make it so only8 certified OS's are allowed on any machine and other things... - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh2jJjRvRjGmHRgQRAtwpAKCkBHtK4uC6WwDzQf3utM62Gk49xACgri30 IcqFXs2blvrOElZd9Chqq0c= =+zm8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 13:06:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B634216A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:06:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D69713C4D9 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:06:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55DD1136E0002; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:45:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E312E28766; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:45:35 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:45:35 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-Id: <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:06:45 -0000 Thus Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:56:55 +0100: > [moved from -current to -chat] >=20 > Timo Schoeler writes: > > Part of the discussion on bsdforen.de was some people complaining > > that parts of the base system (as well as [important] ports) do not > > work, and are maintained very badly due to 'no interest'. >=20 > Those people clearly don't understand the FreeBSD development model. So, the FreeBSD development model does neither care in case the tree breaks (read: is unbuildable, or in the direction of being unbuildable soon, or in the direction of becoming of lesser quality than it was in any time before)? I doubt this. > This "no interest" bit is completely fundamental. Code gets written > by the people who have an interest in it, either because they need it > themselves, or because they find it intellectually satisfying, or > because someone donated unsupported hardware, or because someone paid > them to do it. Setting the last two points you made aside, it's good, but not perfect. Code should be written and commited if it's needed. The example of the HD sound was bad, see my other mail (later). > Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned txp(4) as an example of > unmaintained code in the base system. It is a very good example of > the above. It was ported from OpenBSD seven years ago by someone who > was paid by his employer to do it, and had access to hardware and > documentation. I doubt anyone else in the project does, because the > hardware it supports is obsolete (it was discontinued five years ago), > and was not widely used even when new. As long as it doesn't break things or causes regressions, I'm fine with it. But: Even if it doesn't cause any harm, every snippet of code should be taken care of by a person (or a group) that's liable for this code. That's a crucial point, IMHO. > > FreeBSD seems to decay from release to release; don't get me wrong, > > I *do* like new features, enhances SMP, ZFS, all this stuff, no > > problem. *BUT* please don't forget the basis. It wouldn't surprise > > me if ls(1) doesn't work when 8.0 is released. >=20 > You're over-dramatizing; I hope you don't really believe in what you > just wrote, because it's completely wrong and unjustified. Sure, this is a rhetorical thing ;) (I don't ls(1) to break, but I wouldn't be surprised about races on six core machines, that don't appear on quad or eight cores. That's what I mean.) =20 > DES > --=20 > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no Timo From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 13:22:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13AF116A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:22:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8863013C458 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:22:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D99209C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:22:48 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 740E3207E; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:22:48 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 52B4D844AF; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:22:48 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Timo Schoeler References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:22:48 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> (Timo Schoeler's message of "Fri\, 11 Jan 2008 13\:45\:35 +0100") Message-ID: <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:22:58 -0000 Timo Schoeler writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > Those people clearly don't understand the FreeBSD development model. > So, the FreeBSD development model does neither care in case the tree > breaks (read: is unbuildable, or in the direction of being unbuildable > soon, or in the direction of becoming of lesser quality than it was in > any time before)? I doubt this. Plurium Interrogationum. Your question presupposes that FreeBSD is or will soon be unbuildable and / or that its quality decreases over time. That is far from the case. In fact, we have very strong QA mechanisms in place to ensure that it does not happen. If you believe otherwise, you are misinformed, deluded or malicious. > > This "no interest" bit is completely fundamental. Code gets written > > by the people who have an interest in it, either because they need it > > themselves, or because they find it intellectually satisfying, or > > because someone donated unsupported hardware, or because someone paid > > them to do it. > Setting the last two points you made aside, it's good, but not perfect. > Code should be written and commited if it's needed. The example of the > HD sound was bad, see my other mail (later). OK, very slowly now: That is not how collaborative open source development works. How it works is, code gets written by people who have an interest in it. If the people who have a direct interest in it are unwilling or unable to write it, their only recourse is to cause someone else to become interested. Some people you can simply talk into it, others won't be interested until you offer money, because writing the code you want them to write will take time away from writing the code they themselves want to write. If you do not understand this, you will be more comfortable using commercial software. However, I suspect you will find that commercial software developers are even *less* responsive to your needs. I hate to ask this, but: have you actually written any open source code yourself? I suspect you haven't, because if you had, you would already understand this. > As long as it doesn't break things or causes regressions, I'm fine with > it. But: Even if it doesn't cause any harm, every snippet of code > should be taken care of by a person (or a group) that's liable for this > code. That's a crucial point, IMHO. No. You don't get to use the L-word. The license says so, in capital letters. If what you really meant was "responsible", see above. People will only take responsibility for a piece of code if they have an interest in it. > [...] I wouldn't be surprised about races on six core machines. I would. Very much. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 13:34:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2623616A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:34:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.200]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E03AE13C474 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:34:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH00JQJF1HZGI0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BDYSJQ000417; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:34:28 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:34:28 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= Message-id: <47877064.3060108@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Timo Schoeler , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:34:31 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > > If you do not understand this, you will be more comfortable using > commercial software. > > However, I suspect you will find that commercial software > developers are even *less* responsive to your needs. As several people (besides me) have pointed out there are middle ground alternatives to completly FOSS or completely commercial and that was the core of the issue I brought up in the other thread and on my blog (I *DO NOT* wish to reopen the debate here so please either follow up to me privately or the other thread) - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh3BkjRvRjGmHRgQRAgs+AJ4rhiNo81TEUFhMTB0KT32MCqFxSwCgsHSz QpZG9oTYvSMvY6rDF8geavI= =Y6Uo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 13:44:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1498A16A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:44:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9634113C461 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:44:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47769C6F1898; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:44:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DEC71ACD; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:34:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:34:30 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-Id: <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:44:20 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Thus Dag-Erling Smørgrav spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:22:48 +0100: > Timo Schoeler writes: > > Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: > > > Those people clearly don't understand the FreeBSD development > > > model. > > So, the FreeBSD development model does neither care in case the tree > > breaks (read: is unbuildable, or in the direction of being > > unbuildable soon, or in the direction of becoming of lesser quality > > than it was in any time before)? I doubt this. > > Plurium Interrogationum. Your question presupposes that FreeBSD is or > will soon be unbuildable and / or that its quality decreases over > time. The quality decrease could be felt, and was felt by too many people. > That is far from the case. In fact, we have very strong QA > mechanisms in place to ensure that it does not happen. Better ones than those that were there years ago are *now* in place or being implemented. > If you > believe otherwise, you are misinformed, deluded or malicious. I don't 'believe'. > > > This "no interest" bit is completely fundamental. Code gets > > > written by the people who have an interest in it, either because > > > they need it themselves, or because they find it intellectually > > > satisfying, or because someone donated unsupported hardware, or > > > because someone paid them to do it. > > Setting the last two points you made aside, it's good, but not > > perfect. Code should be written and commited if it's needed. The > > example of the HD sound was bad, see my other mail (later). > > OK, very slowly now: > > That is not how collaborative open source development works. On Linux it works like this, everyone does what (s)he wants, and a few gurus (Torvalds etc) have hard times to concentrate on the important things. The BSDs have/had a different approach, and this was well known throughout the community and is still said in case somebody asks. > How it works is, code gets written by people who have an interest in > it. Never said anything against this. > If the people who have a direct interest in it are unwilling or unable > to write it, their only recourse is to cause someone else to become > interested. Some people you can simply talk into it, others won't be > interested until you offer money, because writing the code you want > them to write will take time away from writing the code they > themselves want to write. > > If you do not understand this, you will be more comfortable using > commercial software. You didn't get my point. > However, I suspect you will find that commercial software developers > are even *less* responsive to your needs. My main need is a stable OS; furthermore, I can choose between a variety of OSs, starting from the BSDs to Solaris/AIX to whatever crawls around there. No problem. > I hate to ask this, but: have you actually written any open source > code yourself? I did, and I still help to work on a BSD licensed exokernel that will be published when it's finished. > I suspect you haven't, because if you had, you would > already understand this. You didn't get my point, again. > > As long as it doesn't break things or causes regressions, I'm fine > > with it. But: Even if it doesn't cause any harm, every snippet of > > code should be taken care of by a person (or a group) that's liable > > for this code. That's a crucial point, IMHO. > > No. You don't get to use the L-word. The license says so, in capital > letters. You know the difference between ``I can't sue you for your dog pooing into my yard'' and the fact that you should be ashamed of your dog doing it and you allowing it? Convert this, take it *(-1), then you get the picture. I write code, commit it, whatever, then I should be 'liable' for it, take care it works, whatever. It's a *moral* thing! > If what you really meant was "responsible", see above. People will > only take responsibility for a piece of code if they have an interest > in it. Then they should join the Linux guys. Seems the BSD universe changed very much during the years, eh? Years ago there were mature guys coding and doing a *very* good job. Nowadays it seems that they code to impress their girlfriends. As said, join the Linux gang. > > [...] I wouldn't be surprised about races on six core machines. > > I would. Very much. Welcome to reality. Honestly. > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smørgrav - des@des.no Timo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHh3BnUY3eBSqOgOMRCjBvAJwNBsudQNqsFLoUGD0jw9XMezc5CgCgmd1S Cx7n1BFo4IXlm0Ox+BI6DR4= =pXO+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 13:57:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E6816A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:57:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7679713C4E5 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:57:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH00L2QG4JOFH0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BDvsKo000465; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:57:55 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:57:54 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: To: Marian Hettwer Message-id: <478775E2.9020009@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47877064.3060108@gmail.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= , Timo Schoeler , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:57:57 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Marian Hettwer wrote: > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:34:28 -0500, "Aryeh M. Friedman" > wrote: >>> If you do not understand this, you will be more comfortable >>> using commercial software. >>> >>> However, I suspect you will find that commercial software >>> developers are even *less* responsive to your needs. >> As several people (besides me) have pointed out there are middle >> ground alternatives to completly FOSS or completely commercial >> and that was the core of the issue I brought up in the other >> thread and on my blog (I *DO NOT* wish to reopen the debate here >> so please either follow up to me privately or the other thread) >> > I can't stand the irony in that very last statement. If I > interpreted my CC: line correctly, we're at freebsd-chat here. You > were supposed to debate at this specific mailing list in the first > place and now it's YOU telling people to not reopen some debate?! > > Har Har. > > Luckily this is freebsd-chat@ so I can shout out loud: Your last > statement is even more ridiculous than all your licences-blabla > glued together. The purpose of that was to implicitly support the creation of -legal@ as purposed on -current@ by someone else. > > Now then, I shall be careful, since this is freebsd-chat, not > freebsd-flame. > > Good Night and Good Luck, ./Marian > > - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh3XijRvRjGmHRgQRAgQTAKCnElwOJzrhZnHC1WdZNYxh4AjuagCdFCQA T6R7W9pmqShtZtdGnbzIC80= =hKnq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:00:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08EF516A46C for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:00:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402B913C4EC; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:00:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47877678.5090206@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:00:24 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Timo Schoeler References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:00:27 -0000 Timo Schoeler wrote: > Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 > 14:12:25 +0100: > >> Timo Schoeler wrote: >> >>>> It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not >>>> into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant >>>> and well maintained. >>> It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important >>> problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If this is the case, >>> import the USB christmas tree device driver and introduce >>> dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, absolutely no problem. >>> >>>> But even if it doesn't go into the >>>> tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several >>>> years I maintained some patches that improved syscons >>>> (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked >>>> fine for me and a few others. >>> But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as some >>> others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into the tree? >>> Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device driver was >>> imported instead? >>> >>> This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. >> You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer working on >> e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the development of other >> "more important" parts of the tree. > > No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's doing > underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff would be > more efficient, and would help the project even more. > > Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas > tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > > (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of doing > both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. If you > are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, you wouldn't > join the marathon...!) > >> In almost all cases it does >> not. If they were not working on that "lower priority" code, they >> would not be working on your "more important" code anyway, unless >> they already wanted to do that. > > That's just a lack of responsibility, morals, and enthusiasm. So, why > code at all? You are not listening to what we're telling you about how software developers work, and you've also overridden the Reply-To: chat in my previous email, which is inappropriate. I'm not going to exchange further emails with you on this topic, and you've also strongly encouraged me to also delete your future emails unread. Goodbye, Kris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:02:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B1716A421 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:02:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F5513C4F0 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:02:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AFCA209C; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:01:59 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD41207E; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:01:59 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4655A844AF; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:01:59 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Timo Schoeler References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:01:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> (Timo Schoeler's message of "Fri\, 11 Jan 2008 14\:34\:30 +0100") Message-ID: <861w8oea08.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:02:08 -0000 Timo Schoeler writes: > Years ago there were mature guys coding and doing a *very* good job. > Nowadays it seems that they code to impress their girlfriends. As said, > join the Linux gang. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did not realize how insulting this is to someone who has spent the last ten years of his life writing the operating system that you use for free. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:08:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B7816A417; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:08:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EAAA13C458; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:08:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F5D8136E0002; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:08:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 52EB11CC5; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:08:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:08:27 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Kris Kennaway Message-Id: <20080111150827.b95d258d.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <47877678.5090206@FreeBSD.org> References: <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <200801111058.m0BAwAMG001075@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47876B39.3040703@FreeBSD.org> <20080111145128.abb76a0a.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <47877678.5090206@FreeBSD.org> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:08:25 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:00:24 +0100: > Timo Schoeler wrote: > > Thus Kris Kennaway spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 > > 14:12:25 +0100: > > > >> Timo Schoeler wrote: > >> > >>>> It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not > >>>> into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant > >>>> and well maintained. > >>> It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important > >>> problem (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. If this is the case, > >>> import the USB christmas tree device driver and introduce > >>> dev.xmastree.lamps.blink as sysctl, absolutely no problem. > >>> > >>>> But even if it doesn't go into the > >>>> tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several > >>>> years I maintained some patches that improved syscons > >>>> (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked > >>>> fine for me and a few others. > >>> But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree as well as some > >>> others, if not all others? If so, why didn't it get into the tree? > >>> Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device driver was > >>> imported instead? > >>> > >>> This is the crucial point I wanted to show: *Priorities*. > >> You are making the incorrect assumption that one developer working > >> on e.g. your /dev/uxmas in any way effects the development of other > >> "more important" parts of the tree. > > > > No, I didn't. I said that the work is done ineffectively as he's > > doing underprioritized stuff. Working on higher prioritized stuff > > would be more efficient, and would help the project even more. > > > > Given the assumption that the developer is able to do both, the Xmas > > tree as well as importing ZFS v9 into the tree. > > > > (I don't see the point that when somebody is really *capable* of > > doing both things, why should (s)he do the 'lower priority' thing. > > If you are at the olympic stadium and you're the best sprinter, you > > wouldn't join the marathon...!) > > > >> In almost all cases it does > >> not. If they were not working on that "lower priority" code, they > >> would not be working on your "more important" code anyway, unless > >> they already wanted to do that. > > > > That's just a lack of responsibility, morals, and enthusiasm. So, > > why code at all? > > You are not listening to what we're telling you about how software > developers work, You don't get the difference between how it was ten years ago and how it is today. This is not my problem. > and you've also overridden the Reply-To: chat in my > previous email, which is inappropriate. I apologize. :) > I'm not going to exchange further emails with you on this topic, and > you've also strongly encouraged me to also delete your future emails > unread. You are a very mature guy with whom discussing on a non-polemic level is a great pleasure. (If you can find sarsasm [0] in this sentence, feel free to keep it. It's a gift.) > Goodbye, > Kris Have a nice day, Timo [0] -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHh3hbUY3eBSqOgOMRCkMTAJ0Z+KkNsjsgJmNQGx2SN0FkZDyoMwCgo0vP UlJRlG9QwOWkUa1K+SSnUAM= =7vDY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:09:26 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9FB16A46B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:09:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E94E13C45A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:09:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47654136E0002; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:09:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 353831CB1; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:09:29 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:09:29 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-Id: <20080111150929.0acb7688.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <861w8oea08.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <861w8oea08.fsf@ds4.des.no> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:09:26 -0000 Thus Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:01:59 +0100: > Timo Schoeler writes: > > Years ago there were mature guys coding and doing a *very* good job. > > Nowadays it seems that they code to impress their girlfriends. As > > said, join the Linux gang. >=20 > I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did not > realize how insulting this is to someone who has spent the last ten > years of his life writing the operating system that you use for free. >=20 > DES This, too, was a rhetoric instrument. Timo From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:10:07 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B325616A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:10:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mh@kernel32.de) Received: from crivens.kernel32.de (crivens.terrorteam.de [81.169.171.191]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B3013C469 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:10:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mh@kernel32.de) Received: from www.terrorteam.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by crivens.kernel32.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22CCB023F; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:49:18 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:49:18 +0100 From: Marian Hettwer To: Aryeh M. Friedman In-Reply-To: <47877064.3060108@gmail.com> References: <47877064.3060108@gmail.com> Message-ID: X-Sender: mh@kernel32.de User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1-rc2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= , Timo Schoeler , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:10:07 -0000 On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:34:28 -0500, "Aryeh M. Friedman" wrote: >> >> If you do not understand this, you will be more comfortable using >> commercial software. >> >> However, I suspect you will find that commercial software >> developers are even *less* responsive to your needs. > > As several people (besides me) have pointed out there are middle > ground alternatives to completly FOSS or completely commercial and > that was the core of the issue I brought up in the other thread and on > my blog (I *DO NOT* wish to reopen the debate here so please either > follow up to me privately or the other thread) > I can't stand the irony in that very last statement. If I interpreted my CC: line correctly, we're at freebsd-chat here. You were supposed to debate at this specific mailing list in the first place and now it's YOU telling people to not reopen some debate?! Har Har. Luckily this is freebsd-chat@ so I can shout out loud: Your last statement is even more ridiculous than all your licences-blabla glued together. Now then, I shall be careful, since this is freebsd-chat, not freebsd-flame. Good Night and Good Luck, ./Marian From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:49:50 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B5116A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:49:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB1213C455 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:49:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A06120B1; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:49:42 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD67320A0; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:49:41 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B4004844AF; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:49:41 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Timo Schoeler References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <861w8oea08.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:49:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <861w8oea08.fsf@ds4.des.no> ("Dag-Erling =?utf-8?Q?Sm=C3=B8rg?= =?utf-8?Q?rav=22's?= message of "Fri\, 11 Jan 2008 15\:01\:59 +0100") Message-ID: <86tzlkct8a.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:49:50 -0000 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did not > realize how insulting this is to someone who has spent the last ten > years of his life writing the operating system that you use for free. Having gotten that off my chest and calmed down a little, I will try to address your other points. Timo Schoeler writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > Plurium Interrogationum. Your question presupposes that FreeBSD is or > > will soon be unbuildable and / or that its quality decreases over > > time. > The quality decrease could be felt, and was felt by too many people. No factual basis. > > That is far from the case. In fact, we have very strong QA > > mechanisms in place to ensure that it does not happen. > Better ones than those that were there years ago are *now* in place or > being implemented. So you admit that we have better QA mechanisms than we used to (though I suspect you don't realize how long they've been in place). Doesn't that contradict your unsupported claim that quality has decreased? > > If you believe otherwise, you are misinformed, deluded or malicious. > I don't 'believe'. A favorite statement of fundamentalists. You cannot claim to own the objective truth; neither can I, but having spent ten years working on FreeBSD, I can rightfully claim to know what goes on in the project far better than you do. > > That is not how collaborative open source development works. > On Linux it works like this, everyone does what (s)he wants, and a few > gurus (Torvalds etc) have hard times to concentrate on the important > things. This is not how Linux development works. I will not pursue it further as it isn't relevant to this discussion. > The BSDs have/had a different approach, and this was well known > throughout the community and is still said in case somebody asks. Mere conjecture on your part. You do not have first-hand knowledge of how the project works. > You didn't get my point. > [...] > You didn't get my point, again. I'm starting to wonder if you actually have a point, since you conveniently left it out of your email. > I did, and I still help to work on a BSD licensed exokernel that will be > published when it's finished. Good, I love vaporware. > > No. You don't get to use the L-word. The license says so, in > > capital letters. > > > > If what you really meant was "responsible", see above. People will > > only take responsibility for a piece of code if they have an > > interest in it. > You know the difference between ``I can't sue you for your dog pooing > into my yard'' and the fact that you should be ashamed of your dog > doing it and you allowing it? Convert this, take it *(-1), then you > get the picture. I write code, commit it, whatever, then I should be > 'liable' for it, take care it works, whatever. OK, so you did mean "responsible" and not "liable", though you don't seem to appreciate the difference in meaning. Score one for the language barrier. I agree that people should feel a certain responsibility for the code they write, but life doesn't always work like that. Significant portions of FreeBSD were written by people who are no longer around, for a variety of reasons. By your standards, all of that code should be removed unless someone else was willing to take over. If we did that consistently, you would be even angrier than you already are (judging from some people's reactions when we have been forced to do so in the past) > It's a *moral* thing! Morals are for people who don't have ethics. > > > [...] I wouldn't be surprised about races on six core machines. > > I would. Very much. > Welcome to reality. Honestly. Poor quoting on my part. What I actually responded to was: > > > I wouldn't be surprised about races on six core machines, that > > > don't appear on quad or eight cores. Once again, I would be very surprised if there turned out to be a race condition in FreeBSD that only occurred on six-core machines. I can easily imagine that there might be bugs resulting from the incorrect assumption that the number of cores is always a power of two, but I doubt very much that they would manifest as races. Race conditions tend to stem from the "yoghurt problem", which is a zero-one-infinity type of problem. I won't bore you with the entire train of thought, but the bottom line is that the number of cores doesn't matter beyond two. By the way, as far as I know, FreeBSD already runs on machines with a non-power-of-two number of cores: - The AMD Opteron architecture supports an arbitrary number of cores in a HyperTransport ring; there are triple-socket Opteron motherboards, and AMD is expected to launch a triple-core Phenom this quarter. - The Sun UltraSPARC T1 (which runs FreeBSD/sun4v) is available with four, six and eight physical cores, each with four concurrent execution threads, giving a total of sixteen, twenty-four or thirty-two logical cores. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:51:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA71616A418 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:51:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (nagual.pp.ru [194.87.13.69]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50AC413C465 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:51:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (ache@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nagual.pp.ru (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BEp8dD082669; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:51:08 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from ache@nagual.pp.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nagual.pp.ru; s=default; t=1200063069; bh=/uoLQNxRqAAUKXClCc6szdyeZJz3gaKIPlP/3/Q AwnY=; l=618; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To: References:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition: In-Reply-To:User-Agent; b=eAbkKePprng/EqKAFIlhGwqRZPXYID++l7ZMOGUj sn0HygS3sEPr/B0EJUgadJiVT2ZgnMlRK0dhDzYcN/KTqPRY8PAA5Z1jqUcZ6umwzMP e01H0ykuzCTNahBIP57fw7Di/DzJUBZL3JelvsizyUJ4ni4Wkyu1FFD+0hpJKMMY= Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m0BEp73e082668; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:51:08 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from ache) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:51:07 +0300 From: Andrey Chernov To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" Message-ID: <20080111145107.GA82524@nagual.pp.ru> Mail-Followup-To: Andrey Chernov , "Aryeh M. Friedman" , Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dominic Fandrey References: <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> <20080111092015.GA17702@freebie.xs4all.nl> <478735A5.7050307@gmail.com> <863at4fx1a.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111122635.GA80432@nagual.pp.ru> <478768CA.2000401@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <478768CA.2000401@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: Dominic Fandrey , Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Wilko Bulte Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:51:21 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 08:02:02AM -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > > Is Aryeh funded by Microsoft? :) > > There are more direct ways to ruin FOSS then what I am purposing... Interesting remark, are you confessing to? :) As fall of the USSR proves, indirect ways are much more powerfull, than direct ones (like declaring war, etc.) To speak seriously, any optional addition is confusing and misdirecting bla-bla (considering the possibility to ignore it) and any non-optional one immediatelly makes strong legal problems for users. -- http://ache.pp.ru/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:51:58 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F58916A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:51:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF18213C458 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:51:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5A972099; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:51:49 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C812049; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:51:49 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 94515844AF; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:51:49 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Timo Schoeler References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <861w8oea08.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111150929.0acb7688.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:51:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20080111150929.0acb7688.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> (Timo Schoeler's message of "Fri\, 11 Jan 2008 15\:09\:29 +0100") Message-ID: <86prw8ct4q.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:51:58 -0000 Timo Schoeler writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did not > > realize how insulting this is to someone who has spent the last ten > > years of his life writing the operating system that you use for free. > This, too, was a rhetoric instrument. You may want to reconsider your choice of rhetoric instruments. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:59:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229FF16A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from optimus.centralmiss.com (ns.centralmiss.com [206.156.254.79]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6A313C442 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (adsl-072-148-013-213.sip.jan.bellsouth.net [72.148.13.213]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by optimus.centralmiss.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21CC328B36; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:59:00 -0600 (CST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id BE8D961C45; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:58:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:58:59 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: <20080111145859.GB87329@over-yonder.net> References: <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <861w8oea08.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86tzlkct8a.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <86tzlkct8a.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17-fullermd.4 (2007-11-01) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:01 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 03:49:41PM +0100 I heard the voice of Dag-Erling Smørgrav, and lo! it spake thus: > > By the way, as far as I know, FreeBSD already runs on machines with a > non-power-of-two number of cores: - I've still got a 6-way PPro motherboard in the closet upstairs (and a number of such ran FreeBSD way back then last millennium when they were impressively powerful systems :) -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 14:59:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE7816A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44FDE13C469; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <47878467.3090508@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:59:51 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <861w8oea08.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86tzlkct8a.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86tzlkct8a.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Timo Schoeler , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:59:54 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > By the way, as far as I know, FreeBSD already runs on machines with a > non-power-of-two number of cores: > > - The AMD Opteron architecture supports an arbitrary number of cores in > a HyperTransport ring; there are triple-socket Opteron motherboards, > and AMD is expected to launch a triple-core Phenom this quarter. > > - The Sun UltraSPARC T1 (which runs FreeBSD/sun4v) is available with > four, six and eight physical cores, each with four concurrent > execution threads, giving a total of sixteen, twenty-four or > thirty-two logical cores. > > DES We also have run extensively on sparc e4500 systems with random numbers of CPUs like 10, 12, and 14. Kris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:03:15 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7889116A505 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:03:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CCB813C469 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:03:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUH00DKNJ5DG301@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0BF3Cfd000612; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:03:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:03:12 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080111145107.GA82524@nagual.pp.ru> To: Andrey Chernov , "Aryeh M. Friedman" , Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , Wilko Bulte , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dominic Fandrey Message-id: <47878530.9070707@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <3648.1200043092@critter.freebsd.dk> <20080111092015.GA17702@freebie.xs4all.nl> <478735A5.7050307@gmail.com> <863at4fx1a.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111122635.GA80432@nagual.pp.ru> <478768CA.2000401@gmail.com> <20080111145107.GA82524@nagual.pp.ru> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:03:15 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andrey Chernov wrote: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 08:02:02AM -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: >>> Is Aryeh funded by Microsoft?>> hat off> :) >> There are more direct ways to ruin FOSS then what I am >> purposing... > > Interesting remark, are you confessing to? :) not exactly but I am confessing to a belief that FOSS as in free beer can never work long term, *BUT* traditional closed source solutions are even worse. > As fall of the USSR proves, indirect ways are much more powerfull, > than direct ones (like declaring war, etc.) Fanatics (even those purposing middle ground solutions) always fall into this trap (my self included)... now that being said only a fanatic would at least take an honest look at any possible method. > > To speak seriously, any optional addition is confusing and > misdirecting bla-bla (considering the possibility to ignore it) and > any non-optional one immediatelly makes strong legal problems for > users. > If you had read the whole thread I never made any mention that it should be required just that it be allowed for. - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh4UwjRvRjGmHRgQRAvhrAKCvqpRFFAYw3hG1ZRljl4c4uxdppQCcCC29 0Iv6tbyN63Gc2StQIvNB9DQ= =j1Nm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:13:39 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9988216A420 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:13:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B26613C46A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:13:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308CBC6F1898; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:13:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id DCF4428766; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:13:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:13:42 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Message-Id: <20080111161342.15fd5d9c.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <20080111145859.GB87329@over-yonder.net> References: <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <861w8oea08.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86tzlkct8a.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111145859.GB87329@over-yonder.net> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:13:39 -0000 Thus "Matthew D. Fuller" spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:58:59 -0600: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 03:49:41PM +0100 I heard the voice of > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav, and lo! it spake thus: > >=20 > > By the way, as far as I know, FreeBSD already runs on machines with > > a non-power-of-two number of cores: >=20 > - I've still got a 6-way PPro motherboard in the closet upstairs > (and a number of such ran FreeBSD way back then last millennium > when they were impressively powerful systems :) Thanks for saving my time. It was built by a company that no longer exists, IIRC, but I don't remember its name. Timo From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:39:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F7916A419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:39:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0D313C46B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:39:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B51C6F1898; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:39:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id AC7CA1D36; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:39:34 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:39:34 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-Id: <20080111163934.7a427ab6.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <86tzlkct8a.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <861w8oea08.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86tzlkct8a.fsf@ds4.des.no> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:39:31 -0000 Thus Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:49:41 +0100: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: > > I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did not > > realize how insulting this is to someone who has spent the last ten > > years of his life writing the operating system that you use for > > free. >=20 > Having gotten that off my chest and calmed down a little, I will try > to address your other points. >=20 > Timo Schoeler writes: > > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: > > > Plurium Interrogationum. Your question presupposes that FreeBSD > > > is or will soon be unbuildable and / or that its quality > > > decreases over time. > > The quality decrease could be felt, and was felt by too many people. >=20 > No factual basis. Lots of eMails, forum posts, etc. I'm not in charge to masticate statistics for you. > > > That is far from the case. In fact, we have very strong QA > > > mechanisms in place to ensure that it does not happen. > > Better ones than those that were there years ago are *now* in place > > or being implemented. >=20 > So you admit that we have better QA mechanisms than we used to Yes, and I put emphasis on *now*. > (though I suspect you don't realize how long they've been in place). I do. > Doesn't that contradict your unsupported claim that quality has > decreased? No, not at all. I don't know which classes in school you may have missed, to be utterly honest, but if quality was perfect, I assume especially the FreeBSD not to have implemented those mechanisms. > > > If you believe otherwise, you are misinformed, deluded or > > > malicious. > > I don't 'believe'. >=20 > A favorite statement of fundamentalists. No, Mr. Bush believes (!) that he's god sent. He believes. I don't. I'm a friend of logic. > You cannot claim to own the > objective truth; I didn't, and I didn't quote Sartre, Nietzsche or anybody else. > neither can I, but having spent ten years working on > FreeBSD, I can rightfully claim to know what goes on in the project > far better than you do. Obviously, working in this environment too long and without critism made you very blind. That's why companies often hire external consultants, because they see things their own staff doesn't see. I hope you already know it, in the position you are... > > > That is not how collaborative open source development works. > > On Linux it works like this, everyone does what (s)he wants, and a > > few gurus (Torvalds etc) have hard times to concentrate on the > > important things. >=20 > This is not how Linux development works. I will not pursue it further > as it isn't relevant to this discussion. There's a difference of what's stated on paper and what's reality. > > The BSDs have/had a different approach, and this was well known > > throughout the community and is still said in case somebody asks. >=20 > Mere conjecture on your part. You do not have first-hand knowledge of > how the project works. Ah, okay. So, people, stop discussing, I found the only wise guy. Go on, have a nice live, guy. Really. > > You didn't get my point. > > [...] > > You didn't get my point, again. >=20 > I'm starting to wonder if you actually have a point, since you > conveniently left it out of your email. Most interestingly, others did get it. > > I did, and I still help to work on a BSD licensed exokernel that > > will be published when it's finished. >=20 > Good, I love vaporware. You cannot imagine how much I care about your feelings. > > > No. You don't get to use the L-word. The license says so, in > > > capital letters. > > > > > > If what you really meant was "responsible", see above. People > > > will only take responsibility for a piece of code if they have an > > > interest in it. > > You know the difference between ``I can't sue you for your dog > > pooing into my yard'' and the fact that you should be ashamed of > > your dog doing it and you allowing it? Convert this, take it * > > (-1), then you get the picture. I write code, commit it, whatever, > > then I should be 'liable' for it, take care it works, whatever. >=20 > OK, so you did mean "responsible" and not "liable", though you don't > seem to appreciate the difference in meaning. Score one for the > language barrier. Not language barrier, just lack of time to find the really fitting term. > I agree that people should feel a certain responsibility for the code > they write, but life doesn't always work like that. That's a very good excuse. I'll tell the judge next time I kill somebody with my bigass car. > Significant > portions of FreeBSD were written by people who are no longer around, > for a variety of reasons. I know. There were similar discussions in the past that made people go. Not in all cases, but it happened. And it was avoidable. > By your standards, all of that code should > be removed unless someone else was willing to take over. Yes. If nature creates something, it takes care. If a mum gives bith to a baby, she cares (or, at least, *should*). Obvious. > If we did > that consistently, you would be even angrier than you already are No. > (judging from some people's reactions when we have been forced to do > so in the past) Ah, the great allmighty wisdomfilled guy again. > > It's a *moral* thing! >=20 > Morals are for people who don't have ethics. Words are for people that can't talk. > > > > [...] I wouldn't be surprised about races on six core machines. > > > I would. Very much. > > Welcome to reality. Honestly. >=20 > Poor quoting on my part. What I actually responded to was: Already solved. Have a nice day, Timo From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 15:40:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E9516A418 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:40:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C68B813C442 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:40:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D23C6F1898; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:40:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4CB401D38; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:40:08 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:40:08 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-Id: <20080111164008.58f1b7eb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <86prw8ct4q.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <861w8oea08.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111150929.0acb7688.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <86prw8ct4q.fsf@ds4.des.no> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:40:05 -0000 Thus Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:51:49 +0100: > Timo Schoeler writes: > > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: > > > I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did > > > not realize how insulting this is to someone who has spent the > > > last ten years of his life writing the operating system that you > > > use for free. > > This, too, was a rhetoric instrument. >=20 > You may want to reconsider your choice of rhetoric instruments. >=20 > DES No. But maybe I should talk to the local priest that I finally found god. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 17:53:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6280416A417 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:53:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97BE13C448 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:53:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0BHrHYT016221; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:53:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0BHrH3K016220; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:53:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:53:17 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801111753.m0BHrH3K016220@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, timo.schoeler@riscworks.net In-Reply-To: <20080111161342.15fd5d9c.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:53:18 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, timo.schoeler@riscworks.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:53:20 -0000 Timo Schoeler wrote: > Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > > > By the way, as far as I know, FreeBSD already runs on machines with > > > a non-power-of-two number of cores: > > > > - I've still got a 6-way PPro motherboard in the closet upstairs > > (and a number of such ran FreeBSD way back then last millennium > > when they were impressively powerful systems :) > > Thanks for saving my time. It was built by a company that no longer > exists, IIRC, but I don't remember its name. It's the ALR Revolution 6x6 board. It's a six-way SMP socket-8 board that required a hell of a power supply and was a good replacement for a radiator. I remember several people running FreeBSD on it in the previous century. Nowadays a single-core processor is probably much faster and consumes a fraction of the power. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd cat man du : where Unix geeks go when they die From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 18:09:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2FC16A41B for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:09:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF6313C4D9 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:09:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054174248.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.174.248]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E736C6F1898; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:09:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A77C91D96; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:09:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:09:09 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, timo.schoeler@riscworks.net Message-Id: <20080111190909.76d7e1ab.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <200801111753.m0BHrH3K016220@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <20080111161342.15fd5d9c.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <200801111753.m0BHrH3K016220@lurza.secnetix.de> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Oliver Fromme , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:09:06 -0000 Thus Oliver Fromme spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:53:17 +0100 (CET): > Timo Schoeler wrote: > > Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > > > By the way, as far as I know, FreeBSD already runs on machines > > > > with a non-power-of-two number of cores: > > >=20 > > > - I've still got a 6-way PPro motherboard in the closet > > > upstairs (and a number of such ran FreeBSD way back then last > > > millennium when they were impressively powerful systems :) > >=20 > > Thanks for saving my time. It was built by a company that no longer > > exists, IIRC, but I don't remember its name. >=20 > It's the ALR Revolution 6x6 board. It's a six-way SMP > socket-8 board that required a hell of a power supply > and was a good replacement for a radiator. I remember > several people running FreeBSD on it in the previous > century. Nowadays a single-core processor is probably > much faster and consumes a fraction of the power. >=20 > Best regards > Oliver We had one machine of this type at the ISP I worked for in the 90ies. Don't remember the OS that ran on it, though. Nice machine, for x86 ;) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 19:17:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A8C16A418; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:17:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0810F13C44B; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:17:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m0BJHPCW018955; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:17:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m0BJHP8u018954; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:17:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:17:25 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, timo.schoeler@riscworks.net In-Reply-To: <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-current User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:17:26 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, timo.schoeler@riscworks.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:17:28 -0000 Note: Reply-To set to chat@. Timo Schoeler wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > I think the real answer is: You cannot prevent anyone > > from writing a piece of software, no matter how useless > > or ridiculous it might be for the majority of users. > > I don't want to do this, either. Sorry, my argumentation on this was > not clear enough... > > > If > > there's someone who wants to write a driver for a USB > > christmas tree or for a bluetooth canned laughter device > > -- he will do it, and you can't keep him from doing it. > > So above, (s)he shall be happy doing so. > > > It will even go into the CVS tree (though probably not > > into GENERIC) if the source is clean, style(9)-compliant > > and well maintained. > > It should do with *one* exception: Every other, more important problem > (e.g. getting ZFS to v9) is *solved*. No. You cannot force a _volunteer_ to work on anything other than the issue he wants to work on. That's why he is a volunteer. FreeBSD is mostly a project of volunteers, only a few of the developers are paid for what they're doing. > > But even if it doesn't go into the > > tree, that's not a big deal. For example, for several > > years I maintained some patches that improved syscons > > (kern/15436). They didn't go into CVS, but they worked > > fine for me and a few others. > > But I bet you would be fine with it in the tree Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have several other patches that I maintain on my own for various reasons. For example I have a local patch set that enables "-c none" in ssh, so I can scp large files much faster between slow machines over channels that don't need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, because they would reject it. I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I think it would be rejected too, reason: "please submit it upstream to the OpenSSH people". :-) > If so, why didn't it get into the tree? There are various reasons why patches don't hit the tree. Some have already been mentioned by Peter Schuller and others. In the particular case that I mentioned, the maintainer of syscons was in the process of completely restructuring the code anyway, so any other patches had to wait. Later I forgot about the whole thing because I had more important things to do. If I insisted at that time and submitted follow-ups to the PR with updated patches, it might really have been comitted. > Maybe because some lower-priority USB christmas device > driver was imported instead? Priority depends on the point of view. Different people have different priorities. There are people for whom ZFS is top priority. Other people's top priority might be improvements on zero-copy sockets or TCP scaling. And yet others might have hot-plug-PCI support on top of their list because it's crucial for their jobs. There might as well be people whose top-priority is the USB xmas tree driver. Why not? > OpenBSD gets this straight very well (and no, I'm no longer a fanboy of > OpenBSD, if interested why, send me a PM). They put emphasis on > security, and they get this job done very very well. OpenBSD doesn't force volunteers to work on things that they don't want to work on. It wouldn't work. > > You can't tell people how to waste their resources in their > > free time. They waste it on whatever they want, no matter > > what the FreeBSD project tells them, no matter if there's > > a strong leader or not. > > They can waste their own time, but they shouldn't waste others. How is writing a USB xmas tree driver wasting others' time? Well, if you submit it, another developer (maybe a comitter) will need some time to look at it, but again, that's voluntary. No volunteer is forced to look at it. In fact it might _save_ others' time who would otherwise have to start writing such a driver themselves. > > > The problem is, that when people start to migrate *away* from > > > FreeBSD (like was stated in bsdforen.de, where some guy's company > > > could no longer justify to recommend FreeBSD to their customers, > > > because they had way too many problems with it), then a chain > > > reaction is started. > > > > Actually I think that bsdforen.de issue is overrated > > (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD > > community, but that's a different story). > > Pride goes before a fall. Exactly. > Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) Basically there are two problems here, the first being sub- optimal bug reports (e.g. missing details, problems with communication), and the second being a lack of committer manpower. Some pople have suggested ways to solve or at least alleviate the latter. Best regards Oliver PS: Reply-To set to chat@. -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "If you aim the gun at your foot and pull the trigger, it's UNIX's job to ensure reliable delivery of the bullet to where you aimed the gun (in this case, Mr. Foot)." -- Terry Lambert, FreeBSD-hackers mailing list. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 19:22:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4523B16A420 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:22:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: from mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF2D13C447 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:22:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: (qmail 2232 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 19:22:33 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 11 Jan 2008 19:22:33 -0000 Message-ID: <4787C119.70406@chuckr.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:18:49 -0500 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071107) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <47864933.6010203@gmail.com> <200801101717.m0AHHHmF068362@fire.js.berklix.net> <200801110016.m0B0GNP4080451@fire.js.berklix.net> <4786C978.5070605@chuckr.org> <4786F8D7.9000403@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4786F8D7.9000403@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Julian H. Stacey" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why the FreeBSD license will not be changing X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:22:34 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > Chuck Robey wrote: >> Julian H. Stacey wrote: >>> "Aryeh Friedman" wrote: >>>> On Jan 10, 2008 12:17 PM, Julian Stacey >>>> wrote: >>>>> Please Discuss Licensing On chat@, Not current@ ! >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >>>>> >>>>> This is the mailing list for users of freebsd-current. It >>>>> includes warnings about new features coming out in -current >>>>> that will affect the users, and instructions on steps that >>>>> must be taken to remain -current. Anyone running "current" >>>>> must subscribe to this list. >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >>>>> >>>>> This list contains the overflow from the other lists about >>>>> non-technical, social information. It includes discussion >>>>> about whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not, whether >>>>> or not to type in capitals, who is drinking too much coffee, >>>>> where the best beer is brewed, who is brewing beer in their >>>>> basement, and so on. Occasional announcements of important >>>>> events (such as upcoming parties, weddings, births, new jobs, >>>>> etc) can be made to the technical lists, but the follow ups >>>>> should be directed to this list. >>>> Small note I have already stated several times in the thread >>>> why this is not in -chat@ >>> No excuse. Abuse of current@ list remit may annoy people to >>> request postmaster@ to remove abuser. Better: - Find another >>> forum, perhaps already existing but not on >> @freebsd.org, Or >>> - Use chat@freebsd, Or - Ask postmaster@freebsd to create a list >>> for those who want it, eg: law@freebsd remit: "Licensing, >>> Copyright, Law, Software >> Patents" > >> God, this one in particular incenses me. "No one listens to me >> when they know it's me talking, so I want to swindle folks into >> believing that I'm of sane mind, and get them to waste their >> precious hobby time on my blither. My right to bother them comes >> before their right not to listen, and honestly be damned." > >> "If I went to the list that pre-announces that its only idiots like >> me, no one would be tricked into wasting their time with me. >> Clearly, I deserve your time. I will follow your list guidelines >> only when they force everyone to listen to me. Rules are for lower >> life-forms, anyways." > >> (BTW, I can get away with this, legally, on chat, which is where >> this went. You'll know who it was aimed at by noticing who it is >> who responds loudest to it.) It's not the first time that >> particular person has told me he won't follow list rules because no >> one reads it otherwise. Beware, I still have that mail! > > And if you remember I asked specifically for all replies to go to the > approriate list > But *YOU* didn't do it, you did it wrong, then just exhorted others to do what you didn't feel personally required to do. Ever hear of the term "Dutch Uncle"? You personify that, unfortunately. If the advice is good then YOU should be following it (isn't that obvious?) - From all the look of it, the only reason that this mail now shows a reutrn address of chat *before* I had to change it, is because I changed the previous one, else this would never have moved. And you can't see why this is wrong? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh8EZz62J6PPcoOkRAmRIAJ474mgc+66+jriz2ocXMPuoVKVZrgCdHsa7 +cJkD0U2CPeBzhMe6Kd9AMo= =I66s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 20:01:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CB916A421 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:01:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew_atrens@hotmail.com) Received: from zrtps0kp.nortel.com (zrtps0kp.nortel.com [47.140.192.56]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F98013C4FF for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:01:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew_atrens@hotmail.com) Received: from zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.99]) by zrtps0kp.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id m0BJVPh03252 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:31:25 GMT Received: from ab-thinky.atrens.ca ([47.128.181.68] RDNS failed) by zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:30:38 -0500 Message-ID: <4787C3A3.1080403@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:29:39 -0500 From: Andrew Atrens User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080109) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2008 19:30:38.0772 (UTC) FILETIME=[722A4F40:01C85488] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:11:50 +0000 Cc: Subject: JMJ for Village Idiot X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:01:28 -0000 Wading through AMF's license ramblings made me start reminiscing about the early 90's - http://www.dnull.com/bsd/others/32.txt I fondly recall JMJ's less-than-comprehensible rant about motorcycle fairings, heh, now that I think about it in retrospect, maybe after all these years, it's all starting to make sense, maybe through 'fairings' he was making some allusion to 'bugs' :) Maybe what JMJ was really saying .. maybe he actually had predicted the future, in particular this whole PR fixing discussion thread, and was really suggesting that the project provide *fairings* for those willing to dive into PRs on un-maintained parts of the code base ? --Andrew From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 20:14:27 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C271016A41A for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:14:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504BD13C448 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:14:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D292099; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:14:19 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8739A2089; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:14:19 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 75012844AF; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:14:19 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Timo Schoeler References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <867iigfx54.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111134535.a86f2ea1.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <8663y0ebtj.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111143430.2304cde2.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <861w8oea08.fsf@ds4.des.no> <86tzlkct8a.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080111163934.7a427ab6.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:14:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20080111163934.7a427ab6.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> (Timo Schoeler's message of "Fri\, 11 Jan 2008 16\:39\:34 +0100") Message-ID: <86myrcce78.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:14:27 -0000 Timo Schoeler writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > Timo Schoeler writes: > > > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > > > Plurium Interrogationum. Your question presupposes that FreeBSD > > > > is or will soon be unbuildable and / or that its quality > > > > decreases over time. > > > The quality decrease could be felt, and was felt by too many > > > people. > > No factual basis. > Lots of eMails, forum posts, etc. I'm not in charge to masticate > statistics for you. I don't think there is any way we can have a fruitful discussion about this if you continue to refuse to substantiate your claims. > > > > If you believe otherwise, you are misinformed, deluded or > > > > malicious. > > > I don't 'believe'. > > A favorite statement of fundamentalists. > No, Mr. Bush believes (!) that he's god sent. He believes. I > don't. I'm a friend of logic. I'm pretty sure that if you asked Mr Bush, he would say exactly the same. If you don't leave room for doubt, you don't leave room for rational thought either. > > > > That is not how collaborative open source development works. > > > On Linux it works like this, everyone does what (s)he wants, and a > > > few gurus (Torvalds etc) have hard times to concentrate on the > > > important things. > > This is not how Linux development works. I will not pursue it further > > as it isn't relevant to this discussion. > There's a difference of what's stated on paper and what's reality. I have no idea what's stated on paper about Linux development. I've been involved in it, on and off, for a couple of years, and I have a fairly good idea how it works. You may want to look up where I work sometime. > > Significant portions of FreeBSD were written by people who are no > > longer around, for a variety of reasons. > I know. There were similar discussions in the past that made people > go. Not in all cases, but it happened. And it was avoidable. Just to pick one random example: please explain to me how we made Cameron Grant go, and how his departure from the project was "avoidable". > > By your standards, all of that code should be removed unless someone > > else was willing to take over. > Yes. If nature creates something, it takes care. If a mum gives bith to > a baby, she cares (or, at least, *should*). Obvious. And if she no longer does, the child should be killed? > > If we did that consistently, you would be even angrier than you > > already are (judging from some people's reactions when we have been > > forced to do so in the past) > Ah, the great allmighty wisdomfilled guy again. Experience and wisdom are not the same thing. My experience is a matter of record; my wisdom is for others to judge. FreeBSD used to have a MIDI stack. It no longer does. A lot of people were angry when we removed it, which we did precisely because it was unmaintained. It turned out that they would rather have a MIDI stack that didn't work properly than no MIDI stack at all. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 21:28:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95DE16A418 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:28:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2D413C457 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:28:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0BLFETe043284; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [10.1.1.14]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0BLF10G027929 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m0BLF15X091766; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id m0BLF12r091765; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:01 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, timo.schoeler@riscworks.net Message-ID: <20080111211500.GD79270@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.4-STABLE alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on cicely12.cicely.de Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:28:17 -0000 On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 08:17:25PM +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have > several other patches that I maintain on my own for > various reasons. For example I have a local patch set > that enables "-c none" in ssh, so I can scp large files > much faster between slow machines over channels that don't > need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. > I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, > because they would reject it. I considered submitting it > as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I think it would > be rejected too, reason: "please submit it upstream to the > OpenSSH people". :-) This is by far the best outcome from this branch of the thread. I've often missed this feature in ssh since it was removed. May I have your patch? -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de bernd@bwct.de info@bwct.de support@fizon.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 21:52:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B61816A421 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:52:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tom@tomjudge.com) Received: from smtp802.mail.ird.yahoo.com (smtp802.mail.ird.yahoo.com [217.146.188.62]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D6A413C447 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:52:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tom@tomjudge.com) Received: (qmail 67628 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 21:25:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.2?) (thomasjudge@btinternet.com@86.140.145.126 with plain) by smtp802.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2008 21:25:39 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: CG7kYk8VM1mLpzbQhV2mPf9ju.pyCgW4PXNYhNKXePYxtp1j Message-ID: <4787D1AF.3090900@tomjudge.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:29:35 +0000 From: Tom Judge User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (X11/20070824) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ticso@cicely.de References: <20080111140144.59498431.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> <20080111211500.GD79270@cicely12.cicely.de> In-Reply-To: <20080111211500.GD79270@cicely12.cicely.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: timo.schoeler@riscworks.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:52:22 -0000 Bernd Walter wrote: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 08:17:25PM +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: >> Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have >> several other patches that I maintain on my own for >> various reasons. For example I have a local patch set >> that enables "-c none" in ssh, so I can scp large files >> much faster between slow machines over channels that don't >> need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. >> I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, >> because they would reject it. I considered submitting it >> as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I think it would >> be rejected too, reason: "please submit it upstream to the >> OpenSSH people". :-) > > This is by far the best outcome from this branch of the thread. > I've often missed this feature in ssh since it was removed. > May I have your patch? > I have also have this patch (against RELENG_6_2) but it also includes the HPN patches, please drop me a private email if you would like a copy. Tom From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 22:15:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E046D16A418 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: from mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44CA13C458 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@chuckr.org) Received: (qmail 10650 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2008 22:15:12 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 11 Jan 2008 22:15:12 -0000 Message-ID: <4787E990.8000001@chuckr.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:11:28 -0500 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071107) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Astrodog References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Aryeh M. Friedman" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:15:13 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 redirected to -chat Astrodog wrote: > I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. > > Beyond moving threads like this one off of -current, I believe it > would provide a valuable place to discuss things like DTrace > licensing, the use of GPL'd code in base, Java packages, etc. I don't think it's really needed. What's needed (and I fully understand why folks have been slow to invoke it) is, for a short while, to require folks to follow the mailing list rules a bit more closely, and applying certain sanctions should they violate them. Folks have been flagrantly breaking the rules, and justifying it by saying "no one reads it then!", and if this isn't stopped, the list suffers. Maybe, at the start, just some sterner warnings might possily serve the purpose? But folks need to know that the list monitor is at least awake. > > --- Harrison > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHh+mQz62J6PPcoOkRAr9XAKCA7KSqXoeRsh74LJaAf0rp8lQngwCfXdf+ k3NS7Bgq8+bwb0skPHHSv+c= =KmoY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 11 23:41:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA90F16A420 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:41:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF84D13C448; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:41:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <4787FEC3.20803@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:41:55 +0100 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZIEJpbGwgSGFja2Vy?= References: <478556AD.6090400@bsdforen.de> <20080110003524.GB5188@soaustin.net> <200801111935.50821.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <20080111204148.GA4787@soaustin.net> <4787E964.1080604@conducive.net> In-Reply-To: <4787E964.1080604@conducive.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Improving the handling of PR:s X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:41:57 -0000 韓家標 Bill Hacker wrote: > Mark Linimon wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 07:35:41PM +0100, Peter Schuller wrote: >>> But understandable or not, the problem becomes particularly >>> frustrating when it affects PR:s that contain patches. Such PR:s >>> constitute direct contributions to the project. In cases where such >>> patches are correct/good enough, the non-application of those patches >>> have what I believe to be significant effects. >> >> I think you make some excellent points -- especially with how >> understandable it is for someone who's submitted a patch which got >> ignored, to not do the work to submit the next one. >> >> With respect to patches, the two things that I've tried -- and they have >> been insufficient -- are the following: >> >> - weekly email of "PRs containing patches" >> >> - weekly email of "PRs recommended by the bugbuster team" >> >> We can make the following observations: >> >> - the "push" paradigm doesn't work particularly well. Partly this is >> due to fatigue if you try to read through all this stuff (see below). >> >> - the "recommended" list has been slightly effective, but it's going >> to take some time for it to take off. For one thing, it has been >> underpublicized; for another, we don't have the culture of committers >> getting "warm fuzzies" from committing PRs. (Since no one working >> on that kind of stuff gets paid AFAIK, that's the only positive >> feedback they're going to get.) >> >> Last week someone made the observation that if these things were instead >> updated daily and posted to a web page, that it would be far more useful. >> I've taken that up as a task. > > Observation: PR or 'other' - it is presently rather difficult to find > [older | most] patches- which reduces the opportunity for testing and > feedback, and increases the likelihood of having the situation reported > yet-again. And again.. > > so .. > > - Can there be a port category (real or 'virtuaized', added - along the > lines of: > > 'patches and workarounds' > > With caveats, of course.... but hopefully also with provision for > co-located feeback, both positive and negative. > >> >> Your other point about "latest PRs" is also a good one. That should be >> relatively easy to do. I'll take up that task. >> > > Question: Can an improved 'data mining' project add value? > > One wherein the tools to look for commonality - sometimes of the less > obvious nature - would be easier for all-hands? > > I include in this the ability to build 'reports' - not just do the > present ad hoc searches. > > If such could be done 'better', it might also benefit from crossproject > (i.e all the *BSD's) scope. > >>> * The committer may not be familiar with the code and, even though >>> the patch looks good generally, it is felt that someone familiar with >>> that part of the system needs to have a look. >> >> In particular, this hurts for areas of the system that are unmaintained. >> >>> What I suggest is a system where a group of non-committers >>> systematically pre-process PR:s, to provide feedback and additional >>> quality assurance to the committer that is to process the PR. >>> >>> This group of people could either be a self-proclaimed group of >>> volunteers, or perhaps a group of people satisfying the criteria of >>> "guy we kinda trust to do testing and provide a useful indication of >>> sanity and correctness, but not with a commit bit". >> >> So far it hasn't happened. We've set up the freebsd-bugbusters@ mailing >> list and the #freebsd-bugbusters IRC channel on EFNet (and please join >> us!) and the latter is where our last 2 bugathons took place. >> >> It's clear that there are several people who want to help process the >> PRs, and we don't have a good answer for them on "how can I contribute?". >> The existing tool, and social conventions, don't allow for non-committers >> to change PR states. As far as we've done in the past is to grant people >> "GNATS access" rights but not "commit rights", on an experimental basis. >> We've done this twice, and although it has worked well, just two people >> isn't enough. (One has gone on to become a full committer -- which is >> great!; the other current does not have as much time for FreeBSD work). >> Several hundred PRs were dealt with by these two folks, so I consider the >> experiment a success. >> >> What we used as a qualification was "track record of responding to PRs >> and >> questions on mailing lists", fwiw. >> >>> One possible answer to this that I have gotten in the past with >>> another project, is that noone is stopping me from just grabbing a >>> bunch of PR:s and posting follow-ups saying I've tested something, or >>> otherwise giving feedback. >> >> Yes, but that's open-loop as well. It's the same situation as with >> submitting >> the patch in the first place: it's going to get frustrating if no >> committer >> picks it up and commits it. >> >> There's not too many people so thick-skinned and persistent as to keep >> going forward when no one's using their work. >> >>> For example, patches with a high confidence of correctness due to >>> many people affirming that they have tested it could be automatically >>> prioritized for committers to deal with, and there will be a clear >>> and systematic record of what testing was done, and by who. >> >> Right. The "priority" field in GNATS has been so abused as to become >> useless. (People assume that setting it higher will cause some kind of >> magic to happen.) >> >> My current thinking is that what committers ought to see is a metric of >> correctness, and a metric of priority, _as set by someone who's vetted >> the PR_. The weekly mailings are too poor an approximation of either >> to be useful. >> >> Adding the second metric would cure one problem that you don't mention -- >> which is that few people have the interest and patience to plow through >> N-thousand PRs. It's not humanly possible to look at them all -- even >> the new ones as they come in. There's simply too many. So, you create >> an expectation "why bother, there's so many anyways". We need to break >> that chain of expectation. A good fix is a good fix. The PR count will >> never get to zero; I (with bugmaster hat on) would be thrilled if we can >> get to the point of just steady-state. > > DB Admins, SysAdmins, 'Management' need BSD, too and not all the work > that needs to be done requires 'C' expertise. > > Some of us also have spare bandwidth and hardware as well as time, so... > >> >>> When I talk about priority above, I do not mean to imply that any >>> committer should work on things they do not want to work on. But I >>> have to assume that a lot of patches get committed because a >>> committer decided to go and pick a few PR:s to process, rather than >>> the committer necessarily has a burning interest in that particular >>> patch. >> >> I think most get committed because a committer sees a PR come in on the >> mailing list and grabs it. Much less often do committers go through the >> database looking for things to fix. Again, the lousy "search/browse" >> capabilities of the existing tool let us down here. >> >>> As such, if said committer could spend those minutes closing five >>> times as many PR:s because the up-front confidence in the correctness >>> of the patch is so much higher, perhaps it would help the system to >>> "scale", moving some of the burden off the committers. >> >> Right. What we need is to start small and create a _culture_ of where >> it's fun (or at least intellectually interesting) to work on this stuff. >> I think the IRC channel may still be the best bet for this. >> >> Once I finish fiddling around with the sparc64-6 and sparc64-7 release >> builds (the first approximation is finished, but I believe we can still >> add some more packages), I intend to task-switch over to looking towards >> defining a PR workflow and floating some proposals. I hope to have >> something concrete to present at BSDCan. Please join us on bugbusters@ >> to discuss any more ideas, too. >> >> mcl > > Coders will always set their own priorities. Even when working for a wage. > > ;-) > > But all-hands benefit from greater stability and fewer 'critical' things > breaking, so rational self-interest might be more effectively applied by > each participant if the 'big picture' - in several flavors - was simply > published in some 'better' manner. > > You've ID'ed some of the possibilities - there are bound to be more. > > Perhaps some of the committers - or at least the project in general - > could benefit from more 'virtual office staff' - folks who specifically > are NOT coders - to remove obstacles and help leverage their expertise? > > Background research, documentation, finding and enlisting testers who > can help, building and maintaining databases - *doing* tests. Some of > that is more amenable to being 'directed' than the coding efforts > themselves. Different personality types... > > JMHK$2CW.. Hi Bill, After your last anti-FreeBSD rant didn't you promise to unsubscribe from the mailing lists and not come back? What went wrong? :( Kris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 04:59:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB0D16A417 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 04:59:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8185313C457 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 04:59:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUI00270LVGQGL0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0C4xdmk000229; Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:59:40 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:59:39 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <4787E990.8000001@chuckr.org> To: Chuck Robey Message-id: <4788493B.7020606@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <3712.1200043508@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873680.1000604@gmail.com> <2fd864e0801110135h3f843622s1da3d6f0c20ad938@mail.gmail.com> <4787E990.8000001@chuckr.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: Astrodog , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 04:59:41 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Chuck Robey wrote: > redirected to -chat > > Astrodog wrote: >> I'd like to propose the creation of a freebsd-legal mailing list. >> > >> Beyond moving threads like this one off of -current, I believe it >> would provide a valuable place to discuss things like DTrace >> licensing, the use of GPL'd code in base, Java packages, etc. > > I don't think it's really needed. What's needed (and I fully > understand why folks have been slow to invoke it) is, for a short > while, to require folks to follow the mailing list rules a bit more > closely, and applying certain sanctions should they violate them. > Folks have been flagrantly breaking the rules, and justifying it by > saying "no one reads it then!", and if this isn't stopped, the list > suffers. > > Maybe, at the start, just some sterner warnings might possily serve > the purpose? But folks need to know that the list monitor is at > least awake. > >> --- Harrison _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To >> unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > As I said in the opening messages of the thread I would gladelly use such a list if one existed (which it doesn't now so we have the current situtation) - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHiEk7jRvRjGmHRgQRAoJ5AJ4tfR+Cl3//F/LEFYoWRsH7TAgncACgj8+E esiWzdKKXQpt4F7aXD+DUk8= =VQPY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 05:04:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABF816A46B for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 05:04:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1AB013C44B for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 05:04:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JUI00G6SM30G0Z0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m0C54BxS000240; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:04:12 -0500 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:04:11 -0500 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <4787C3A3.1080403@hotmail.com> To: Andrew Atrens Message-id: <47884A4B.7040308@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 References: <4787C3A3.1080403@hotmail.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080104) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: JMJ for Village Idiot X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 05:04:13 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andrew Atrens wrote: > Wading through AMF's license ramblings made me start reminiscing > about the early 90's - > > http://www.dnull.com/bsd/others/32.txt > > I fondly recall JMJ's less-than-comprehensible rant about > motorcycle fairings, heh, now that I think about it in retrospect, > maybe after all these years, it's all starting to make sense, maybe > through 'fairings' he was making some allusion to 'bugs' :) > > Maybe what JMJ was really saying .. maybe he actually had predicted > the future, in particular this whole PR fixing discussion thread, > and was really suggesting that the project provide *fairings* for > those willing to dive into PRs on un-maintained parts of the code > base ? Totally OT: I have had the distinct (dis)honor of working with JMJ in real life and he is as insane as his posts lead you to believe (he was fired for some extracurricular activities beyond any sense of acceptable behavior even in a dysfunctional company)... side point the person I referred to several times as not using FreeBSD (or any BSD) any more is John Sokol (the owner dnull.com) - -- Aryeh M. Friedman FloSoft Systems, Java Developer Tools. http://www.flosoft-systems.com Developer, not business, friendly. "Free software != Free beer" Blog: http://www.flosoft-systems.com/flosoft_systems_community/blogs/aryeh/index.php -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHiEpLjRvRjGmHRgQRAsoCAJ96YtgA3IIfS2XMPvJkk9eoUIqjNACgl1/y AdUexPKtkjX0VcBeU5QCnMg= =9f9E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 13:44:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D81016A468; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:44:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0C113C45A; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:44:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9918520A0; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:44:06 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: -0.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on tim.des.no Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86417207E; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:44:06 +0100 (CET) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 759D4844C0; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:44:06 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:44:06 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> (Oliver Fromme's message of "Fri\, 11 Jan 2008 20\:17\:25 +0100 \(CET\)") Message-ID: <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: timo.schoeler@riscworks.net, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:44:17 -0000 Oliver Fromme writes: > Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have > several other patches that I maintain on my own for > various reasons. For example I have a local patch set > that enables "-c none" in ssh, so I can scp large files > much faster between slow machines over channels that don't > need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. > I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, > because they would reject it. Correct. > I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I > think it would be rejected too, reason: "please submit it upstream to > the OpenSSH people". :-) Incorrect. I have done this myself in the past, and IIRC it's almost trivial. I don't recall why I didn't commit it. > In the particular case that I mentioned, the maintainer > of syscons was in the process of completely restructuring > the code anyway, so any other patches had to wait. Except he didn't really completely restructure it, he just broke it in a different way than it was already broken. I was very disappointed, but I didn't feel that I had sufficient seniority to contradict him, nor sufficient experience to fix it properly. > > > (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD > > > community, but that's a different story). > > Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; > I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's > the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at > all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and over time they construct their own mythology of how that community functions and acts. I have seen this before - a complete disconnect between the reality of the project and its perception by a native-language user group, culminating in one case in a face to face "crisis meeting" between members of that community and FreeBSD developers, and in another in a flame war over an "open letter" from that user group to the developers. Interestingly, both cases involved German-language communities. I also dimly recall a similar situation with the Japanese FreeBSD community, which resulted in Warner learning Japanese in an effort to bridge the divide. I was very amused when he started copying some of the idiosyncracies of the Japanese community :) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 13:51:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16BDA16A46B; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:51:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E9213C4F9; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:51:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054180072.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.180.72]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324F4C6F1898; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:51:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 682F01E2D; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:51:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:51:46 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-Id: <20080112145146.6f196ede.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.5; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:51:42 -0000 Thus Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav spake on Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:44:06 +0100: > Oliver Fromme writes: > > Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have > > several other patches that I maintain on my own for > > various reasons. For example I have a local patch set > > that enables "-c none" in ssh, so I can scp large files > > much faster between slow machines over channels that don't > > need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. > > I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, > > because they would reject it. >=20 > Correct. >=20 > > I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, > > but I think it would be rejected too, reason: "please submit it > > upstream to the OpenSSH people". :-) >=20 > Incorrect. I have done this myself in the past, and IIRC it's almost > trivial. I don't recall why I didn't commit it. >=20 > > In the particular case that I mentioned, the maintainer > > of syscons was in the process of completely restructuring > > the code anyway, so any other patches had to wait. >=20 > Except he didn't really completely restructure it, he just broke it > in a different way than it was already broken. I was very > disappointed, but I didn't feel that I had sufficient seniority to > contradict him, nor sufficient experience to fix it properly. >=20 > > > > (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD > > > > community, but that's a different story). > > > Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be > > > ignored; > > I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's > > the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at > > all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) >=20 > BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from > the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed > communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and > over time they construct their own mythology of how that community > functions and acts. Sorry, but (especially in this case) that is nonsense as it's primarily an excuse and disparages the work done there. > I have seen this before - a complete disconnect between the reality of > the project and its perception by a native-language user group, > culminating in one case in a face to face "crisis meeting" between > members of that community and FreeBSD developers, and in another in a > flame war over an "open letter" from that user group to the > developers. Interestingly, both cases involved German-language > communities. >=20 > I also dimly recall a similar situation with the Japanese FreeBSD > community, which resulted in Warner learning Japanese in an effort to > bridge the divide. I was very amused when he started copying some of > the idiosyncracies of the Japanese community :) >=20 > DES > --=20 > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 14:01:42 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BF416A41B; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:01:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC6813C4E7; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:01:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de ([10.1.1.7]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0CE1do9084809; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:01:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [10.1.1.14]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m0CE1Us3035811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:01:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m0CE1UYU094610; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:01:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id m0CE1T4C094609; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:01:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:01:29 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: <20080112140128.GK79270@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.4-STABLE alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, BAYES_00=-2.599 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on cicely12.cicely.de Cc: timo.schoeler@riscworks.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:01:42 -0000 On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 02:44:06PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: > > > > > (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD > > > > community, but that's a different story). > > > Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; > > I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's > > the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at > > all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) > > BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from > the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed > communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and > over time they construct their own mythology of how that community > functions and acts. It is not only a native language forum it is a web based forum, which as such has a problem to attract persons which are deeper into the scene, since web based forums are not as simple to handle as tranditional mailing-lists without bringing anything on the pro side. I don't know if it is the largest German BSD community or not, but it is likely the German BSD community with the largest newcommer vs expirienced ratio. -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de bernd@bwct.de info@bwct.de support@fizon.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 14:19:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04DF316A46B for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:19:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE57C13C4E7 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:19:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A0E46B86; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:00:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:00:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Timo Schoeler In-Reply-To: <20080112145146.6f196ede.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> Message-ID: <20080112135630.I36731@fledge.watson.org> References: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080112145146.6f196ede.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Dag-Erling =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:19:13 -0000 On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: >>>>> (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD community, but >>>>> that's a different story). >>>> Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; >>> I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's the first, >>> second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at all; it can't be easily >>> measured anyway.) >> >> BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from the >> same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed communities >> with little or no contact with the parent community, and over time they >> construct their own mythology of how that community functions and acts. > > Sorry, but (especially in this case) that is nonsense as it's primarily an > excuse and disparages the work done there. There's another element in play here -- FreeBSD.org is a mailing list-centric community driven by people who are very much part of the e-mail world. For many newer computer users, e-mail is the old world, and the new world is instant messaging and web forums. Many developers I've talked to feel quite uncomfortable with the medium of web forums, and therefore don't tend to use them. If our newer user communities are forming around web forums (i.e., for PC-BSD), then we do need to find some way to bridge the gap. I have to admit that I live very much in that e-mail world: I tried following the PC-BSD web forums for a bit, but the fact that the messages failed to appear neatly in threads in my mail reader meant it was awkward and inconvenient, and wasn't part of my regular workflow in which I intermittently poll my mail reader while getting other work done, referencing it on occasion with explicit searches, etc. I don't know if there are technical solutions to this problem, but if we want to "meet" many of these newer users of BSD, and hence build up the rapport needed to have a productive relationship, we're either going to have to lure them onto the mailing lists, find our way onto web forums, or find some other technical or social means of getting over that difference. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 14:38:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B410D16A41A for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:38:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jw@innerewut.de) Received: from smtprelay05.ispgateway.de (smtprelay05.ispgateway.de [80.67.18.43]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1012213C458 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:38:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jw@innerewut.de) Received: (qmail 3952 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2008 14:11:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blowfish.local) (068076@[85.178.234.237]) (envelope-sender ) by smtprelay05.ispgateway.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 12 Jan 2008 14:11:54 -0000 Message-ID: <4788CAA9.9090002@innerewut.de> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:11:53 +0100 From: Jonathan Weiss User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20080112145146.6f196ede.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <20080112135630.I36731@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080112135630.I36731@fledge.watson.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:38:36 -0000 Robert Watson schrieb: > I don't > know if there are technical solutions to this problem, but if we want to > "meet" many of these newer users of BSD, and hence build up the rapport > needed to have a productive relationship, we're either going to have to > lure them onto the mailing lists, find our way onto web forums, or find > some other technical or social means of getting over that difference. There are several solutions for bridging mailing lists with a web interface/forum. Google groups is the most popular one, but there are also many other solutions, e.g. the Ruby folks use rforum to integrate several Ruby mailing lists with a forum like web interface. See http://www.ruby-forum.com/ for examples, rforum is available at http://rforum.andreas-s.net/ Jonathan Weiss -- Jonathan Weiss http://blog.innerewut.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 14:57:05 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD6916A420 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:57:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kamikaze@bsdforen.de) Received: from mail.bsdforen.de (bsdforen.de [212.204.60.79]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96A9713C4CE for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:57:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kamikaze@bsdforen.de) Received: from homeKamikaze.norad (nat-wh-1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de [129.13.72.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.bsdforen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6DD405C13 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:34:35 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4788CFF9.30500@bsdforen.de> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:34:33 +0100 From: Dominic Fandrey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071203) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200801111917.m0BJHP8u018954@lurza.secnetix.de> <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86y7av5fbt.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:57:06 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: >>>> (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD >>>> community, but that's a different story). >>> Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; >> I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's >> the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at >> all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) > > BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from > the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed > communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and > over time they construct their own mythology of how that community > functions and acts. Since so many of us are subscribed to these mailing lists, I feel quite confident about saying that we are neither disconnected nor have created a mythology. If you mean by disconnected the people who appear once and ask something that can be answered by telling them to read a certain chapter in the handbook or one of the 120 HowTos we have written and collected (I have offered to the doc-mailing list to translate some to English, but that has been ignored), then in deed we are guilty - of keeping lots of newbies with trivial questions from these lists. > I have seen this before - a complete disconnect between the reality of > the project and its perception by a native-language user group, > culminating in one case in a face to face "crisis meeting" between > members of that community and FreeBSD developers, and in another in a > flame war over an "open letter" from that user group to the developers. > Interestingly, both cases involved German-language communities. The flame-war is occurring here. It didn't happen on our forums. The first people to reply to the "open letter" did so in a very constructive fashion. They anticipated that our letter was the result of months long discussion and only described problems of senior community members, who all are subscribed to FreeBSD mailing lists. I personally have been flamed on IRC and received hate-mail, because I openly opposed translating developer documentation to German, because I think that such a translation favors a community split. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 20:37:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4DE316A55D for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:37:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.189]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA0813C447 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:37:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so1589536rvb.43 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:37:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:reply-to:to:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; bh=timrTGVoEtJ+7F/1jf9FO1wqj5jyZp2GFgsfWiXUQOg=; b=X9eR6MH4omydPu/JcsdgJ+iwjrvtCHdbJB+6a8uk0dFh95Ozd7H+oBemekSnl9z1jgYj1Hb9Aoupg4n7ip91lAqh8sgCtjAQ62CTOxkTH9jeqNGEQPRT7jvpxSZ62zTG4E1byhtAOfbvtsGjrGRmHwiXvLpGi2Xaa8gkrDuVsSs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:reply-to:to:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding; b=OtIV53clJPZj7qTkP94Zy9FOmzvLuMuAge4NRreqknQeahW1B9Szv4dPKvbLCt6Q+cV/ggAn0O/21sKlXmT0Txu7r+Q4m1csYBkJQ2Zqv9k5CoXhBCRj6h4E6MIyz2qeUqyT4q1xt0kWcoGuyijrUHvo/C7mRv/fEmzeByA0n5c= Received: by 10.141.3.17 with SMTP id f17mr2856080rvi.180.1200168738022; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.0.106? ( [203.218.207.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k19sm7060343rvb.18.2008.01.12.12.12.16 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:12:17 -0800 (PST) From: Harrison Grundy To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 05:15:08 +0900 Message-Id: <1200168908.2557.0.camel@lesnotebook.astrodogindustries.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: DTrace License Status X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: astrodog@gmail.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:37:10 -0000 Does anyone here know the latest on the DTrace license situation? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 12 21:38:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B84616A420 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:38:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jb@what-creek.com) Received: from what-creek.com (what-creek.com [66.111.37.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C08013C45A for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:38:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jb@what-creek.com) Received: by what-creek.com (Postfix, from userid 102) id D73C07329D; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:24:43 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:24:43 +0000 From: John Birrell To: Harrison Grundy Message-ID: <20080112212443.GA47911@what-creek.com> References: <1200168908.2557.0.camel@lesnotebook.astrodogindustries.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1200168908.2557.0.camel@lesnotebook.astrodogindustries.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DTrace License Status X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:38:12 -0000 On Sun, Jan 13, 2008 at 05:15:08AM +0900, Harrison Grundy wrote: > Does anyone here know the latest on the DTrace license situation? The DTrace license hasn't changed and won't change. Please don't flog horse any more. It's dead. I am currently working on an implementation that works around the license issues by keeping all CDDL code in the DTrace kernel module set. This work is being funded by Cisco. I am very close to posting a set of patches for pre-commit review. -- John Birrell