From owner-freebsd-eclipse@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 26 19:29:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F50B1065672 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:29:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) Received: from misty.eyesbeyond.com (gerbercreations.com [71.39.140.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E38513C4CC for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:29:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) Received: from misty.eyesbeyond.com (localhost.eyesbeyond.com [127.0.0.1]) by misty.eyesbeyond.com (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m1QJHhps081765; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:17:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) Received: (from glewis@localhost) by misty.eyesbeyond.com (8.13.1/8.13.3/Submit) id m1QJHfVD081764; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:17:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) X-Authentication-Warning: misty.eyesbeyond.com: glewis set sender to glewis@eyesbeyond.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:17:41 -0800 From: Greg Lewis To: ken Message-ID: <20080226191741.GB81385@misty.eyesbeyond.com> References: <20080219213031.GB85220@osiris.chen.org.nz> <20080220.103213.233678772.ken@tydfam.jp> <47BB8C82.2000909@buzmo.com> <20080220.131304.-345497826.ken@tydfam.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080220.131304.-345497826.ken@tydfam.jp> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Cc: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org, pieter@degoeje.nl, glewis@eyebeyond.com.eyesbeyond.com, jonc@chen.org.nz, freebsd-java@freebsd.org Subject: Re: java/eclipse and jdk1.6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "FreeBSD users of eclipse EDI, tools, rich client apps & ports." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:29:11 -0000 On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 01:13:04PM +0900, ken wrote: > Yea, I am surviving... > I am using it and touching it every time I have a problem. So, it is a turtle walk... > About plugins; > I know that JBossTools GUI which requires newer version of xulrunner does not work properly. Also, GUI editor of eclipse may/may not work. I am not sure if it is updated recently or not, though. > > I understand that Eclipse schedules to update every spring and fall. And next version for spring will be 3.4 (now it is 3.4M5). So, we may better settle the port before the new release comes in. Unless there are other showstoppers, I would agree that its about time to move 3.3.1 from eclipse-devel to eclipse. That will trigger problems with many of the plugins though, so there is more work here than just moving a single port over. What we need is to get people to volunteer to try and build all plugins to check whether they fail (at least) and then hopefully update/fix them (or mark them broken if noone is interested in fixing them). > I see that we have emacs (22), emacs21 and emacs-devel in /usr/ports/editors, and I feel that it is suggestiong the way we manage eclipse under /usr/ports/java - current version = eclipse, previous version = eclipseXX, and next version = eclipse-devel. Implicit in this is that you'd need to maintain multiple versions of some of the plugins, so you're proposing more than 3 ports here. The question this raises for me is whether there are enough people active in ports who are interested enough in Eclipse that they're prepared to commit to this. If there aren't I would suggest sticking with the current model. -- Greg Lewis Email : glewis@eyesbeyond.com Eyes Beyond Web : http://www.eyesbeyond.com Information Technology FreeBSD : glewis@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-eclipse@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 26 19:29:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C931065675 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:29:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) Received: from misty.eyesbeyond.com (gerbercreations.com [71.39.140.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27CD313C4F0 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:29:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) Received: from misty.eyesbeyond.com (localhost.eyesbeyond.com [127.0.0.1]) by misty.eyesbeyond.com (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m1QJC64x081707; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:12:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) Received: (from glewis@localhost) by misty.eyesbeyond.com (8.13.1/8.13.3/Submit) id m1QJC4aB081706; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:12:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) X-Authentication-Warning: misty.eyesbeyond.com: glewis set sender to glewis@eyesbeyond.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:12:03 -0800 From: Greg Lewis To: Daniel Rucci Message-ID: <20080226191203.GA81385@misty.eyesbeyond.com> References: <20080219213031.GB85220@osiris.chen.org.nz> <20080220.103213.233678772.ken@tydfam.jp> <47BB8C82.2000909@buzmo.com> <20080220.131304.-345497826.ken@tydfam.jp> <47BBCDD8.4020305@buzmo.com> <47BD6FDF.2070603@rucci.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47BD6FDF.2070603@rucci.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Cc: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org, pieter@degoeje.nl, glewis@eyebeyond.com.eyesbeyond.com, jonc@chen.org.nz, freebsd-java@freebsd.org Subject: Re: java/eclipse and jdk1.6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "FreeBSD users of eclipse EDI, tools, rich client apps & ports." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:29:20 -0000 On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 07:34:39AM -0500, Daniel Rucci wrote: > Mike Bowie wrote: > >That sounds like a reasonable proposition and clearly it's a model > >already in use. IIRC, there was also mention previously of moving all > >of the "eclipse bits" to /usr/ports/eclipse... although it's late and > >the details escape me at this moment. I think perhaps Dan suggested > >it... I'll have to scan the archives. (Or someone can chime in.) > >Perhaps this is something that could be considered at the same time, if > >changes are being made. > > Well my 2 cents.. > > An argument against retaining java as the main category for eclipse and > most of its plugins. The porters handbook suggests using ports/java/ as > the main category for ports directly related to the java language [1]. A good argument for this is that it has lead to things like the Eclipse plugin for PHP (insert any language other than Java) being in the java category. Thats just plain ridiculous in my view. > With that said, the main category for the base eclipse ports would > probably go in devel. Ports like those related to sql/databases could > have their main category be set as database and the pydev eclipse > feature in python, etc. Agreed. > Although it follows the suggestion of the handbook, we are then losing > our neat folder containing _almost_ all of the eclipse ports, which > could be viewed as a regression. > > Checking how something like zope handles this, they mention zope as > their second category, this doesn't create a zope/ folder in my ports > directory but the category is created on the website so perhaps theres a > way to access this directly on the system as well. > > In any case, theres about 40 ports related to eclipse, it wouldn't be > the smallest category. > > Is there a guideline for what justifies a new category? The eclipse ports more than meet the criteria for creating a virtual category for them IIRC. I'm very much in support of moving them to their intuitive main category and giving them a virtual category of eclipse as the second (or later) category. FWIW... -- Greg Lewis Email : glewis@eyesbeyond.com Eyes Beyond Web : http://www.eyesbeyond.com Information Technology FreeBSD : glewis@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-eclipse@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 27 02:28:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28CE7106566C; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 02:28:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (lefty.soaustin.net [66.135.55.46]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009D413C442; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 02:28:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 37D798C0AB; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:06:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:06:07 -0600 To: Greg Lewis Message-ID: <20080227020607.GA13884@soaustin.net> References: <20080219213031.GB85220@osiris.chen.org.nz> <20080220.103213.233678772.ken@tydfam.jp> <47BB8C82.2000909@buzmo.com> <20080220.131304.-345497826.ken@tydfam.jp> <47BBCDD8.4020305@buzmo.com> <47BD6FDF.2070603@rucci.org> <20080226191203.GA81385@misty.eyesbeyond.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080226191203.GA81385@misty.eyesbeyond.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: linimon@lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Cc: Daniel Rucci , freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org, pieter@degoeje.nl, glewis@eyebeyond.com.eyesbeyond.com, freebsd-java@freebsd.org Subject: Re: java/eclipse and jdk1.6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "FreeBSD users of eclipse EDI, tools, rich client apps & ports." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 02:28:09 -0000 On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 11:12:03AM -0800, Greg Lewis wrote: > A good argument for this is that it has lead to things like the Eclipse > plugin for PHP (insert any language other than Java) being in the java > category. Thats just plain ridiculous in my view. My own feeling is that the 'java' physical category has not been a success. People are too confused about where to put things. It's the only language- specific physical category we have. As for how/what on creating a new physical category, see http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/committers-guide/ports.html#AEN1529 (it will also refer you to the relevant section of the Porter's Handbook). I think it's a fairly easy call to have 'eclipse' created as a virtual category. There was a proposal a year or so ago to create some kind of 'ide' physical category for Integrated Development Environments of various kinds, but it quickly resulted in more controversy than anything else. (IIRC I was against it at the time.) I'd want to see a complete proposed list before we went in that direction. Mass category moves are stressful for our users IMHO, so we should only use them if we really feel the hierarchy will be in much better shape going forwards. mcl From owner-freebsd-eclipse@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 27 04:32:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D2F1065673 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 04:32:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) Received: from misty.eyesbeyond.com (gerbercreations.com [71.39.140.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A2FD13C455 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 04:32:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) Received: from misty.eyesbeyond.com (localhost.eyesbeyond.com [127.0.0.1]) by misty.eyesbeyond.com (8.13.1/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m1R4VoTZ084487; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:31:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) Received: (from glewis@localhost) by misty.eyesbeyond.com (8.13.1/8.13.3/Submit) id m1R4VngQ084486; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:31:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) X-Authentication-Warning: misty.eyesbeyond.com: glewis set sender to glewis@eyesbeyond.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:31:49 -0800 From: Greg Lewis To: Mark Linimon Message-ID: <20080227043149.GA84411@misty.eyesbeyond.com> References: <20080219213031.GB85220@osiris.chen.org.nz> <20080220.103213.233678772.ken@tydfam.jp> <47BB8C82.2000909@buzmo.com> <20080220.131304.-345497826.ken@tydfam.jp> <47BBCDD8.4020305@buzmo.com> <47BD6FDF.2070603@rucci.org> <20080226191203.GA81385@misty.eyesbeyond.com> <20080227020607.GA13884@soaustin.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080227020607.GA13884@soaustin.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Cc: Daniel Rucci , freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org, pieter@degoeje.nl, glewis@eyebeyond.com.eyesbeyond.com, freebsd-java@freebsd.org Subject: Re: java/eclipse and jdk1.6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "FreeBSD users of eclipse EDI, tools, rich client apps & ports." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 04:32:21 -0000 On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 08:06:07PM -0600, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 11:12:03AM -0800, Greg Lewis wrote: > > A good argument for this is that it has lead to things like the Eclipse > > plugin for PHP (insert any language other than Java) being in the java > > category. Thats just plain ridiculous in my view. > > My own feeling is that the 'java' physical category has not been a success. > People are too confused about where to put things. It's the only language- > specific physical category we have. Agreed. Its a mess. Stuff ends up in there just because its written in Java. Other equivalent ports (which may or may not be written in Java) end up in other categories. I wouldn't be sad to see it go. We could easily do something like have it as a virtual category ala perl, etc. and possibly also prefix port names with java- if people thought that was a good idea. > As for how/what on creating a new physical category, see > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/committers-guide/ports.html#AEN1529 > (it will also refer you to the relevant section of the Porter's Handbook). > > I think it's a fairly easy call to have 'eclipse' created as a virtual > category. There was a proposal a year or so ago to create some kind of > 'ide' physical category for Integrated Development Environments of > various kinds, but it quickly resulted in more controversy than anything > else. (IIRC I was against it at the time.) I'd want to see a complete > proposed list before we went in that direction. I don't believe a physical category is warranted, but I agree that a virtual category is pretty much a given if it were to move (or even if it didn't that makes some sense). > Mass category moves are stressful for our users IMHO, so we should only > use them if we really feel the hierarchy will be in much better shape > going forwards. So thats the big question. If we leave the category there it will continue to gather new ports despite our best intentions for what we want people to commit there. We know that this will cause confusion since it leaves users unsure of where they should look for certain ports. Do we think that level of confusion is a greater pain than the pain of gutting the category (either over time or in one hit). -- Greg Lewis Email : glewis@eyesbeyond.com Eyes Beyond Web : http://www.eyesbeyond.com Information Technology FreeBSD : glewis@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-eclipse@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 27 06:28:34 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3254E106566B for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 06:28:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mbowie@buzmo.com) Received: from mail138.messagelabs.com (mail138.messagelabs.com [216.82.249.35]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E086013C46E for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 06:28:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mbowie@buzmo.com) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: mbowie@buzmo.com X-Msg-Ref: server-10.tower-138.messagelabs.com!1204093712!21702220!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [69.12.11.77] Received: (qmail 19528 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2008 06:28:32 -0000 Received: from smtp1.dfw.fabriclabs.com (HELO smtp1.dfw.fabriclabs.com) (69.12.11.77) by server-10.tower-138.messagelabs.com with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 27 Feb 2008 06:28:32 -0000 Received: from [192.168.10.111] (adsl-70-234-82-212.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net [70.234.82.212]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp1.dfw.fabriclabs.com (8.13.7/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m1R6SLgt071624; Wed, 27 Feb 2008 00:28:22 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mbowie@buzmo.com) Message-ID: <47C5030E.8070706@buzmo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 22:28:30 -0800 From: Mike Bowie User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lewis References: <20080219213031.GB85220@osiris.chen.org.nz> <20080220.103213.233678772.ken@tydfam.jp> <47BB8C82.2000909@buzmo.com> <20080220.131304.-345497826.ken@tydfam.jp> <47BBCDD8.4020305@buzmo.com> <47BD6FDF.2070603@rucci.org> <20080226191203.GA81385@misty.eyesbeyond.com> <20080227020607.GA13884@soaustin.net> <20080227043149.GA84411@misty.eyesbeyond.com> In-Reply-To: <20080227043149.GA84411@misty.eyesbeyond.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-java@freebsd.org, pieter@degoeje.nl, Daniel Rucci , freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org Subject: Re: java/eclipse and jdk1.6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "FreeBSD users of eclipse EDI, tools, rich client apps & ports." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 06:28:34 -0000 Greg Lewis wrote: > On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 08:06:07PM -0600, Mark Linimon wrote: >> Mass category moves are stressful for our users IMHO, so we should only >> use them if we really feel the hierarchy will be in much better shape >> going forwards. > > So thats the big question. If we leave the category there it will continue > to gather new ports despite our best intentions for what we want people to > commit there. We know that this will cause confusion since it leaves users > unsure of where they should look for certain ports. Do we think that level > of confusion is a greater pain than the pain of gutting the category > (either over time or in one hit). > If I may... I don't believe that it's going to get any better over time... so if not now, when? Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of confusion, but in the long run the intention is to improve clarity. Mike. ------- The standard IMHO disclaimer applies to any statements I may or may not have made above. From owner-freebsd-eclipse@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 29 00:02:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ECE01065678; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 00:02:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@rucci.org) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F938FC2B; Fri, 29 Feb 2008 00:02:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@rucci.org) Received: from smurfbsd.warganizer.com (ool-182dc652.dyn.optonline.net [24.45.198.82]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0JWZ00F55442QVW0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:02:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from smurfbsd.warganizer.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smurfbsd.warganizer.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m1T02NQr024849; Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:02:24 -0500 (EST envelope-from dan@rucci.org) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:02:23 -0500 From: Daniel Rucci In-reply-to: <47C5030E.8070706@buzmo.com> To: Mike Bowie Message-id: <47C74B8F.5090809@rucci.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 References: <20080219213031.GB85220@osiris.chen.org.nz> <20080220.103213.233678772.ken@tydfam.jp> <47BB8C82.2000909@buzmo.com> <20080220.131304.-345497826.ken@tydfam.jp> <47BBCDD8.4020305@buzmo.com> <47BD6FDF.2070603@rucci.org> <20080226191203.GA81385@misty.eyesbeyond.com> <20080227020607.GA13884@soaustin.net> <20080227043149.GA84411@misty.eyesbeyond.com> <47C5030E.8070706@buzmo.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20080202) Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org, pieter@degoeje.nl, freebsd-java@freebsd.org Subject: Re: java/eclipse and jdk1.6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "FreeBSD users of eclipse EDI, tools, rich client apps & ports." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 00:02:30 -0000 Mike Bowie wrote: > If I may... I don't believe that it's going to get any better over > time... so if not now, when? Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of > confusion, but in the long run the intention is to improve clarity. Agreed. I took my first stab at this.. Visit http://rucci.org/hg/eclipse-portcategory/ to get what I've done so far. The tasks I've identified so far are: - Porters handbook - diff files for eclipse ports in java/eclipse - diff file for devel/subclipse and devel/subversive - update src/user.sbin/sysinstall - www/en/ports/categories - ports/MOVED - Testing - Testing - PR for www/en/ports/categories - PR for doc related changes - Bribes - PR(s) for ports makefile updates + MOVED If I left anything out please let me know I took a stab at the first 3, hopefully they are correct.. Will we need to submit individual patches for each port or can all the ones in java/* be done together? Its probably important to have agreement on how the categories are being transformed, as far as the order of them goes, being listed first is the only category thats `special' correct? - java category was moved to the last category in the list - eclipse was inserted as the second category. A few only had java listed, I took a quick look at these and I think they all ended up going to devel/ as their main. Thanks, Dan