From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 11:06:50 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F5010656EF for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:06:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDA28FC24 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:06:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8LB6oRt030167 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:06:50 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8LB6odN030163 for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:06:50 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:06:50 GMT Message-Id: <200909211106.n8LB6odN030163@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:06:50 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o kern/120749 arch [request] Suggest upping the default kern.ps_arg_cache 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 11:26:58 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C821065672; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:26:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@hoeg.nl) Received: from palm.hoeg.nl (mx0.hoeg.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:613:100::211]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2328FC2E; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:26:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by palm.hoeg.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6993F1CFC1; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:26:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:26:57 +0200 From: Ed Schouten To: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TXv8ADjWKuT9E31y" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: Subject: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:26:58 -0000 --TXv8ADjWKuT9E31y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a better license and very active maintenance. I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD, which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default. How to test tmux in base: - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux: http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz - Apply the following patch: http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff Comments? --=20 Ed Schouten WWW: http://80386.nl/ --TXv8ADjWKuT9E31y Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkq3YwEACgkQ52SDGA2eCwVK4wCfcf/E/9oM8ESCvdTDTXuyZUJC kfIAnikKgoekjFxPE+xC2oALIjfaAihv =L7Zf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TXv8ADjWKuT9E31y-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 11:35:56 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA6FD1065703; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:35:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@hoeg.nl) Received: from palm.hoeg.nl (mx0.hoeg.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:613:100::211]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 934218FC27; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:35:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by palm.hoeg.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0C2361CFC1; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:35:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:35:56 +0200 From: Ed Schouten To: Roman Divacky Message-ID: <20090921113556.GX95398@hoeg.nl> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090921112917.GA89971@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="+0KmLy8UubQqhxHi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090921112917.GA89971@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: FreeBSD Arch , FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:35:56 -0000 --+0KmLy8UubQqhxHi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Roman Divacky wrote: > can tmux be configured to be 100% compatible with screen? if so > are we going to ship with such a config on default? Well, we could ship a screen-like config in /usr/share/examples, but in my opinion we shouldn't enable this by default. It only makes it more confusing when people switch to different operating systems that don't use this config. I do think tmux's use of ^B instead of ^A by default is a bit awkward... --=20 Ed Schouten WWW: http://80386.nl/ --+0KmLy8UubQqhxHi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkq3ZRsACgkQ52SDGA2eCwWg+wCZAU4DgF+x+bRNKIPYzenWCPyc 4bMAn2nX8wA/R63dR/8PkSXSuIpuLUiz =e8cP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+0KmLy8UubQqhxHi-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 11:51:08 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F01151065693 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:51:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rdivacky@vlk.vlakno.cz) Received: from vlakno.cz (77-93-215-190.static.masterinter.net [77.93.215.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD30F8FC21 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:51:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vlakno.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75D2D9CB0F7; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:29:20 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at vlakno.cz Received: from vlakno.cz ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (lev.vlakno.cz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sAt2TwkLwoa9; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:29:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from vlk.vlakno.cz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vlakno.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BA99CB376; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:29:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from rdivacky@localhost) by vlk.vlakno.cz (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8LBTHsg090511; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:29:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from rdivacky) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:29:17 +0200 From: Roman Divacky To: Ed Schouten Message-ID: <20090921112917.GA89971@freebsd.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:51:09 -0000 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 01:26:57PM +0200, Ed Schouten wrote: > Hi all, > > At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in > the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately > window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and > tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a > better license and very active maintenance. > > I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I > spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to > release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD, > which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default. > > How to test tmux in base: > > - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux: > http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz > - Apply the following patch: > http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff > > Comments? can tmux be configured to be 100% compatible with screen? if so are we going to ship with such a config on default? From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 12:37:53 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90828106566B for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:37:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu) Received: from hergotha.csail.mit.edu (hergotha.csail.mit.edu [66.92.79.170]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B728FC08 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:37:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hergotha.csail.mit.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hergotha.csail.mit.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8LCbkil017365; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:37:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by hergotha.csail.mit.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8LCbkxV017364; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:37:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:37:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> To: ed@80386.nl X-Newsgroups: mit.lcs.mail.freebsd-arch In-Reply-To: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> Organization: None X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (hergotha.csail.mit.edu [127.0.0.1]); Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:37:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on hergotha.csail.mit.edu Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:37:53 -0000 In article <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl>, Ed Schouten writes: >At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in >the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately >window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and >tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a >better license and very active maintenance. Can you explain why any such utility needs to be in the base system? I'm not seeing it. We have enough things in the base that most users will never use as it is. -GAWollman From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 13:03:46 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B6D3106566C for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:03:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C5828FC19 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:03:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 2DD651A3CD5; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 06:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 06:03:46 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Garrett Wollman Message-ID: <20090921130346.GY21946@elvis.mu.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: ed@80386.nl, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:03:46 -0000 * Garrett Wollman [090921 05:39] wrote: > In article <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl>, Ed Schouten writes: > > >At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in > >the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately > >window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and > >tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a > >better license and very active maintenance. > > Can you explain why any such utility needs to be in the base system? > I'm not seeing it. We have enough things in the base that most users > will never use as it is. I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1). We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program. hopefully we can make it screen compat rather than having something people are not familiar with in base. Any chance in getting the author to go to ^A and be more "Screenish" so people don't have to learn a new tool? Honestly, if it's very different, the people will just continue to install/use screen. -- - Alfred Perlstein .- AMA, VMOA #5191, 03 vmax, 92 gs500, 85 ch250 .- FreeBSD committer From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 13:09:41 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCF2106566C; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:09:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu) Received: from hergotha.csail.mit.edu (hergotha.csail.mit.edu [66.92.79.170]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6688FC1B; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:09:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hergotha.csail.mit.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hergotha.csail.mit.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8LD9eZ1017655; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:09:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by hergotha.csail.mit.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8LD9eTr017654; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:09:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:09:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> To: alfred@freebsd.org X-Newsgroups: mit.lcs.mail.freebsd-arch In-Reply-To: <20090921130346.GY21946@elvis.mu.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> Organization: None X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (hergotha.csail.mit.edu [127.0.0.1]); Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:09:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=disabled version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on hergotha.csail.mit.edu Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:09:41 -0000 In article <20090921130346.GY21946@elvis.mu.org> you write: >I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than >window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1). > >We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program. sudo pkg_add -r screen Problem solved. -GAWollman From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 13:15:02 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742F2106566B for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:15:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cokane@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail-out1.fuse.net (mail-out1.fuse.net [216.68.8.175]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7B58FC17 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:15:01 +0000 (UTC) X-CNFS-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=U43SLuz+mznEeU6k0XtWkcXR9Y++tAUvrsVXj5cPltU= c=1 sm=0 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=H5OBgCL4uvonUuZx8qkA:9 a=G5lYGvCDSfUp7JivocOdnvsdleQA:4 a=SV7veod9ZcQA:10 a=ltTBfuASkkJknWYg7-sA:9 a=aE1sZMYLiC76RyTFag59PFjzI5wA:4 a=LkYvsgB9u1MH7Ao0BLhsLg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine Authentication-Results: ecout1 smtp.mail=cokane@FreeBSD.org; spf=softfail Received-SPF: softfail (ecout1: transitional domain FreeBSD.org does not designate 74.215.227.9 as permitted sender) Received: from [74.215.227.9] ([74.215.227.9:50298] helo=mail.colemankane.org) by ecout1 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.43 r()) with ESMTP id 58/D8-14944-0D877BA4; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:00:00 -0400 Received: from [172.20.0.121] (rrcs-96-11-231-210.central.biz.rr.com [96.11.231.210]) by mail.colemankane.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 650101143E; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:04:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Coleman Kane To: Ed Schouten In-Reply-To: <20090921113556.GX95398@hoeg.nl> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090921112917.GA89971@freebsd.org> <20090921113556.GX95398@hoeg.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-Sa/mwQSc9vnzjdzVHzEc" Organization: FreeBSD Project Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:59:43 -0400 Message-Id: <1253537983.1757.5.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.26.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: FreeBSD Arch , Roman Divacky , FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:15:02 -0000 --=-Sa/mwQSc9vnzjdzVHzEc Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2009-09-21 at 13:35 +0200, Ed Schouten wrote: > * Roman Divacky wrote: > > can tmux be configured to be 100% compatible with screen? if so > > are we going to ship with such a config on default? >=20 > Well, we could ship a screen-like config in /usr/share/examples, but in > my opinion we shouldn't enable this by default. It only makes it more > confusing when people switch to different operating systems that don't > use this config. I do think tmux's use of ^B instead of ^A by default is > a bit awkward... >=20 Funny. I always considered (and still consider, but live with it) screen's use of ^A to be quite awkward and annoying, myself, since it conflicts with using ^A for jump-to-start-of-line. --=20 Coleman Kane --=-Sa/mwQSc9vnzjdzVHzEc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (FreeBSD) iEYEABECAAYFAkq3eLwACgkQcMSxQcXat5drggCdG+3TKZoIwwxxUhrnGQzhW3Mw GA8Ani4ayU73Q5FIo40T7EJcNINk0wWb =LvxD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Sa/mwQSc9vnzjdzVHzEc-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 13:28:54 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C351065670 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:28:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pieter@degoeje.nl) Received: from s2m-is-001.service2media.com (rev-130-102.virtu.nl [217.114.102.130]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D228FC08 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:28:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nox-laptop.localnet ([10.0.1.45] RDNS failed) by s2m-is-001.service2media.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:16:49 +0200 From: Pieter de Goeje To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:16:48 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.11.2 (Linux/2.6.28-12-generic; KDE/4.2.2; x86_64; ; ) References: <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <200909211516.48748.pieter@degoeje.nl> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Sep 2009 13:16:49.0327 (UTC) FILETIME=[C6DFDBF0:01CA3ABD] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: ed@80386.nl, Garrett Wollman Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:28:55 -0000 On Monday 21 September 2009 14:37:46 Garrett Wollman wrote: > In article <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl>, Ed Schouten writes: > > >At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in > >the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately > >window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and > >tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a > >better license and very active maintenance. > > Can you explain why any such utility needs to be in the base system? > I'm not seeing it. We have enough things in the base that most users > will never use as it is. > > -GAWollman I would very much like to see this in the base system, as screen is currently the first port I install on all systems I manage. Anything that takes more than one minute I run in screen, such as buildworld/kernel, installation of certain ports etc. If tmux was in the basesystem, I wouldn't have to extract or mount the ports directory before updating the system to the desired version of FreeBSD. Screen/tmux is especially important when such tasks are run remotely through SSH. It could also be useful in single user mode when all you have is one console. It would be even better if there was a hardlink from screen to tmux. It could then detect it was started as screen and use screen compatible mode ;-) -- Pieter de Goeje From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 15:10:19 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E556710656FD; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:10:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joel@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.vnode.se (mail.vnode.se [62.119.52.82]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EFDC8FC08; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:10:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from iMac.local (pgw.vnode.se [77.110.37.134]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.vnode.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6FC03E9F42C; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:50:33 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4AB792B7.10206@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:50:31 +0200 From: Joel Dahl User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ed Schouten References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> In-Reply-To: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:10:20 -0000 Ed Schouten skrev: > Hi all, > > At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in > the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately > window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and > tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a > better license and very active maintenance. > > I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I > spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to > release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD, > which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default. > > How to test tmux in base: > > - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux: > http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz > - Apply the following patch: > http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff > > Comments? Yes, please! Screen has almost always been the first thing I install on new machines, but recently I've been switching more and more machines over to tmux instead. Having it in base would be a great addition. -- Joel From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 15:46:28 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 598A51065676; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:46:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 418588FC18; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:46:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8LFkLli024367; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:46:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8LFkLbJ024366; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:46:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:46:21 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Ed Schouten Message-ID: <20090921154621.GA24208@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:46:28 -0000 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 01:26:57PM +0200, Ed Schouten wrote: > Hi all, > > At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in > the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately > window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and > tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a > better license and very active maintenance. > > I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I > spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to > release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD, > which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default. > > How to test tmux in base: > > - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux: > http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz > - Apply the following patch: > http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff > > Comments? > I've used FreeBSD since it was known as 386bsd+patchkit. In that time, I've used window/screen exactly zero times. IMHO, neither screen nor tmux should be in the base system. These are easily installed from the Ports Collection. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 15:49:42 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920501065693; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:49:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miwi@bsdcrew.de) Received: from bsdcrew.de (duro.unixfreunde.de [85.214.90.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 561B18FC0A; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:49:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bsdcrew.de (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8DCDD4AF56; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:33:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:33:20 +0200 From: Martin Wilke To: Ed Schouten Message-ID: <20090921153320.GQ19491@bsdcrew.de> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.19 (2009-01-05) Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:49:42 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 01:26:57PM +0200, Ed Schouten wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in > the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately > window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and > tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a > better license and very active maintenance. >=20 > I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I > spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to > release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD, > which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default. >=20 > How to test tmux in base: >=20 > - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux: > http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz > - Apply the following patch: > http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff >=20 > Comments? I=C5=BDd also like to see that in src. >=20 > --=20 > Ed Schouten > WWW: http://80386.nl/ - --=20 +-----------------------+-------------------------------+ | PGP : 0xB1E6FCE9 | Jabber : miwi(at)BSDCrew.de | | Skype : splash_111 | Mail : miwi(at)FreeBSD.org | +-----------------------+-------------------------------+ | Mess with the Best, Die like the Rest! | +-----------------------+-------------------------------+ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkq3nMAACgkQdLJIhLHm/OkFAwCgsuODOu2Ge1ECFnJ6w6qdTAKu yC8AoIsYivL7O2PHv0stP9tfJWocLzEV =3DRXzT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 16:09:55 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0EE1065679 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:09:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2028FC1C for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:09:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 113B31A3D6A; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:09:55 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Garrett Wollman Message-ID: <20090921160955.GZ21946@elvis.mu.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:09:55 -0000 * Garrett Wollman [090921 06:10] wrote: > In article <20090921130346.GY21946@elvis.mu.org> you write: > > >I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than > >window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1). > > > >We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program. > > sudo pkg_add -r screen > > Problem solved. WORKS GREAT ESP WHEN NETWORK IS DOWN AND SOMEONE NEEDS MY HELP. WORKS AWESOME ON REALLY OLD MACHINES WHERE PACKAGES NO LONGER EXIST. Note: Apple, which cares more about a usable userland unix than we do at this time has screen installed in base as well. -- - Alfred Perlstein .- AMA, VMOA #5191, 03 vmax, 92 gs500, 85 ch250 .- FreeBSD committer From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 16:17:14 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE920106566C; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:17:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joel@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.vnode.se (mail.vnode.se [62.119.52.82]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E9B8FC12; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:17:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from iMac.local (pgw.vnode.se [77.110.37.134]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.vnode.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D7944E9F42C; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:17:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4AB7A708.5080209@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:17:12 +0200 From: Joel Dahl User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <20090921160955.GZ21946@elvis.mu.org> In-Reply-To: <20090921160955.GZ21946@elvis.mu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Garrett Wollman Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:17:15 -0000 Alfred Perlstein skrev: > * Garrett Wollman [090921 06:10] wrote: >> In article <20090921130346.GY21946@elvis.mu.org> you write: >> >>> I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than >>> window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1). >>> >>> We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program. >> sudo pkg_add -r screen >> >> Problem solved. > > WORKS GREAT ESP WHEN NETWORK IS DOWN AND SOMEONE NEEDS MY HELP. > > WORKS AWESOME ON REALLY OLD MACHINES WHERE PACKAGES NO LONGER > EXIST. > > Note: Apple, which cares more about a usable userland unix than > we do at this time has screen installed in base as well. OpenBSD has tmux in base...and I've seen discussions on the NetBSD lists about importing tmux (as a window(1) replacement) into NetBSD base as well... :-) -- Joel From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 16:19:47 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A2A8106568D for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:19:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86348FC17 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:19:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id DDAE61A3D59; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:19:46 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Joel Dahl Message-ID: <20090921161946.GA21946@elvis.mu.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <20090921160955.GZ21946@elvis.mu.org> <4AB7A708.5080209@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4AB7A708.5080209@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Garrett Wollman Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:19:47 -0000 * Joel Dahl [090921 09:17] wrote: > Alfred Perlstein skrev: > >* Garrett Wollman [090921 06:10] wrote: > >>In article <20090921130346.GY21946@elvis.mu.org> you write: > >> > >>>I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than > >>>window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1). > >>> > >>>We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program. > >>sudo pkg_add -r screen > >> > >>Problem solved. > > > >WORKS GREAT ESP WHEN NETWORK IS DOWN AND SOMEONE NEEDS MY HELP. > > > >WORKS AWESOME ON REALLY OLD MACHINES WHERE PACKAGES NO LONGER > >EXIST. > > > >Note: Apple, which cares more about a usable userland unix than > >we do at this time has screen installed in base as well. > > OpenBSD has tmux in base...and I've seen discussions on the NetBSD lists > about importing tmux (as a window(1) replacement) into NetBSD base as > well... :-) I dunno Joel, we wouldn't want to get crazy and ship a system that was usable out of the box, I'd like to go back to a Solaris circa 1999 like system, y'know, kernel+/bin/sh, don't need much more than that y'know... -- - Alfred Perlstein .- AMA, VMOA #5191, 03 vmax, 92 gs500, 85 ch250 .- FreeBSD committer From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 16:30:27 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB37106566B; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:30:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA6328FC15; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:30:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8LGURRN024725; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:30:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8LGUR4O024724; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:30:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:30:27 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Alfred Perlstein Message-ID: <20090921163027.GA24651@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <20090921160955.GZ21946@elvis.mu.org> <4AB7A708.5080209@FreeBSD.org> <20090921161946.GA21946@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090921161946.GA21946@elvis.mu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Garrett Wollman , Joel Dahl Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:30:27 -0000 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 09:19:46AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Joel Dahl [090921 09:17] wrote: > > Alfred Perlstein skrev: > > >* Garrett Wollman [090921 06:10] wrote: > > >>In article <20090921130346.GY21946@elvis.mu.org> you write: > > >> > > >>>I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than > > >>>window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1). > > >>> > > >>>We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program. > > >>sudo pkg_add -r screen > > >> > > >>Problem solved. > > > > > >WORKS GREAT ESP WHEN NETWORK IS DOWN AND SOMEONE NEEDS MY HELP. > > > > > >WORKS AWESOME ON REALLY OLD MACHINES WHERE PACKAGES NO LONGER > > >EXIST. > > > > > >Note: Apple, which cares more about a usable userland unix than > > >we do at this time has screen installed in base as well. > > > > OpenBSD has tmux in base...and I've seen discussions on the NetBSD lists > > about importing tmux (as a window(1) replacement) into NetBSD base as > > well... :-) > > I dunno Joel, we wouldn't want to get crazy and ship a system that > was usable out of the box, I'd like to go back to a Solaris > circa 1999 like system, y'know, kernel+/bin/sh, don't need much > more than that y'know... > When you install the box, install the port. This isn't rocket science. Can we also add perl back to the base system? It is much more useful than tmux/screen. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 16:34:40 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFC901065670; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:34:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB8758FC13; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:34:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 9D8281A3D6A; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:34:40 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Steve Kargl Message-ID: <20090921163440.GC21946@elvis.mu.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <20090921160955.GZ21946@elvis.mu.org> <4AB7A708.5080209@FreeBSD.org> <20090921161946.GA21946@elvis.mu.org> <20090921163027.GA24651@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090921163027.GA24651@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Garrett Wollman , Joel Dahl Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:34:40 -0000 * Steve Kargl [090921 09:30] wrote: > On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 09:19:46AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > * Joel Dahl [090921 09:17] wrote: > > > Alfred Perlstein skrev: > > > >* Garrett Wollman [090921 06:10] wrote: > > > >>In article <20090921130346.GY21946@elvis.mu.org> you write: > > > >> > > > >>>I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than > > > >>>window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1). > > > >>> > > > >>>We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program. > > > >>sudo pkg_add -r screen > > > >> > > > >>Problem solved. > > > > > > > >WORKS GREAT ESP WHEN NETWORK IS DOWN AND SOMEONE NEEDS MY HELP. > > > > > > > >WORKS AWESOME ON REALLY OLD MACHINES WHERE PACKAGES NO LONGER > > > >EXIST. > > > > > > > >Note: Apple, which cares more about a usable userland unix than > > > >we do at this time has screen installed in base as well. > > > > > > OpenBSD has tmux in base...and I've seen discussions on the NetBSD lists > > > about importing tmux (as a window(1) replacement) into NetBSD base as > > > well... :-) > > > > I dunno Joel, we wouldn't want to get crazy and ship a system that > > was usable out of the box, I'd like to go back to a Solaris > > circa 1999 like system, y'know, kernel+/bin/sh, don't need much > > more than that y'know... > > > > When you install the box, install the port. This isn't rocket > science. > > Can we also add perl back to the base system? It is much more > useful than tmux/screen. 1) Perl is dead. 2) We could add something like ruby or python if someone could get the bootstrap working without build nicely. -- - Alfred Perlstein .- AMA, VMOA #5191, 03 vmax, 92 gs500, 85 ch250 .- FreeBSD committer From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 16:50:13 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4501065670; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:50:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA93A8FC14; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:50:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8LGoD9u024903; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8LGoDco024902; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:50:13 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Alfred Perlstein Message-ID: <20090921165013.GA24778@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <20090921160955.GZ21946@elvis.mu.org> <4AB7A708.5080209@FreeBSD.org> <20090921161946.GA21946@elvis.mu.org> <20090921163027.GA24651@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20090921163440.GC21946@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090921163440.GC21946@elvis.mu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Garrett Wollman , Joel Dahl Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:50:13 -0000 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 09:34:40AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Steve Kargl [090921 09:30] wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 09:19:46AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > > I dunno Joel, we wouldn't want to get crazy and ship a system that > > > was usable out of the box, I'd like to go back to a Solaris > > > circa 1999 like system, y'know, kernel+/bin/sh, don't need much > > > more than that y'know... > > > > > > > When you install the box, install the port. This isn't rocket > > science. > > > > Can we also add perl back to the base system? It is much more > > useful than tmux/screen. > > 1) Perl is dead. > 2) We could add something like ruby or python if someone could > get the bootstrap working without build nicely. > It was a rhetorical question, Alfred. BTW, Perl is far from dead. It appears none of the customers you support use SpamAssassin, apache, teTeX, jdk16, gtk, or any number of other ports that list perl as a dependence. troutmask:kargl[206] pkg_info -R perl-5.8.9_3 | grep -v p5- | wc -l 63 troutmask:kargl[208] pkg_info -R perl-5.8.9_3 | wc -l 97 -- Steve From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 17:12:23 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC6C106566B for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:12:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kabaev@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.24]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6FA18FC1C for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:12:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so882210qwe.7 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:12:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version :content-type; bh=+eDrsQOC8GPbSEPrhnlkxSNXpBn/HRV05mizEhLmNVQ=; b=S0MLAbHkk3s4JU8dSBfvpR3HX5y4ecz1431yuDpq9a0cRhbv4A+GZR3j+0hlbxiCvj Gg1SsLbaZkdD8XPCJkGwPASpVQInhtzmxWi6nvOjDQXBDWVev5LqrdkiT+03vhSjZFHU zu9vM9Se8mWx6vFHwKWgRAvcfCiJuuiCfxBSg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer :mime-version:content-type; b=FNe6yon4TCVu+FusFUwP4vXoEc/b9DBm4SllvS5m4L8Kt+RVZU/qSR1liThJ5qm9o1 1gynQWYDL2vmHaCXGaUZ6SRn2hgg5thD+XJ9Fue0Dsr08vB5Ap7VZJ58ohfLeMroSEL7 RMQ73GugizPkr9VP1aD2T2VFRsIdqmSskENh0= Received: by 10.224.64.224 with SMTP id f32mr947803qai.315.1253553141930; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kan.dnsalias.net (c-24-91-218-112.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.91.218.112]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm128119qyk.3.2009.09.21.10.12.20 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:12:14 -0400 From: Alexander Kabaev To: FreeBSD Arch Message-ID: <20090921131214.1d06b1da@kan.dnsalias.net> In-Reply-To: <20090921113556.GX95398@hoeg.nl> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090921112917.GA89971@freebsd.org> <20090921113556.GX95398@hoeg.nl> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.2 (GTK+ 2.16.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/Ahp8a8dB2Bt/LEoFpo2z_+z"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Cc: Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:12:23 -0000 --Sig_/Ahp8a8dB2Bt/LEoFpo2z_+z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:35:56 +0200 Ed Schouten wrote: > * Roman Divacky wrote: > > can tmux be configured to be 100% compatible with screen? if so > > are we going to ship with such a config on default? >=20 > Well, we could ship a screen-like config in /usr/share/examples, but > in my opinion we shouldn't enable this by default. It only makes it > more confusing when people switch to different operating systems that > don't use this config. I do think tmux's use of ^B instead of ^A by > default is a bit awkward... >=20 We have many, many useful programs in ports. Please let tmux be one of them. I use screen on every system I can access too and having it in ports was never too much of a nuisance.=20 My $0.02. --=20 Alexander Kabaev --Sig_/Ahp8a8dB2Bt/LEoFpo2z_+z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.13 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFKt7PzQ6z1jMm+XZYRAuPfAJ4vTc1I8Gk6wjb3WxbM6SdimqDQmQCcCsD3 0H9AOxfOqtG5Kk0iBLzpfYw= =FY8E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/Ahp8a8dB2Bt/LEoFpo2z_+z-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 17:15:51 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B80C1065676 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:15:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from outP.internet-mail-service.net (outp.internet-mail-service.net [216.240.47.239]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 743A58FC0A for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:15:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from idiom.com (mx0.idiom.com [216.240.32.160]) by out.internet-mail-service.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03F7B8930; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:04:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Client-Authorized: MaGic Cook1e X-Client-Authorized: MaGic Cook1e X-Client-Authorized: MaGic Cook1e Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (home.elischer.org [216.240.48.38]) by idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5908F2D6026; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4AB7B230.1040101@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:04:48 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090921154621.GA24208@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> In-Reply-To: <20090921154621.GA24208@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Ed Schouten , current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:15:51 -0000 Steve Kargl wrote: > On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 01:26:57PM +0200, Ed Schouten wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in >> the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately >> window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and >> tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a >> better license and very active maintenance. >> >> I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed >> like I spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just >> about to release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import >> this into HEAD, which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include >> it by default. >> >> How to test tmux in base: >> >> - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux: >> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz >> - Apply the following patch: >> http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff >> >> Comments? >> > > I've used FreeBSD since it was known as 386bsd+patchkit. In that > time, I've used window/screen exactly zero times. IMHO, neither > screen nor tmux should be in the base system. These are easily > installed from the Ports Collection. I always use screen. I used to use window sometimes but screen was better. While it'd be noce to have it in the base system, it's always been ok for me to have it as a port and it probably can continue to be there. I'm not sure that putting tmux in the base system is worth while. It's being activly developed which means that we'll always be out of date. for Alfred's support point.. to watch soemoe else for support reasons I use watch -w Julian From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 17:39:56 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5DA61065672; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:39:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from oberman@es.net) Received: from mailgw.es.net (mail4.es.net [IPv6:2001:400:6000:6::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9865E8FC12; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:39:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ptavv.es.net (ptavv.es.net [IPv6:2001:400:910::29]) by mailgw.es.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8LHdaZ5009989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:39:37 -0700 Received: from ptavv.es.net (ptavv.es.net [127.0.0.1]) by ptavv.es.net (Tachyon Server) with ESMTP id 65F881CC37; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:39:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Ed Schouten In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:26:57 +0200." <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:39:36 -0700 From: "Kevin Oberman" Message-Id: <20090921173936.65F881CC37@ptavv.es.net> X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2009-09-21_10:2009-09-17, 2009-09-21, 2009-09-21 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-0909210084 Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:39:57 -0000 > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:26:57 +0200 > From: Ed Schouten > Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org > > Hi all, > > At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in > the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately > window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and > tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a > better license and very active maintenance. > > I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I > spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to > release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD, > which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default. > > How to test tmux in base: > > - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux: > http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz > - Apply the following patch: > http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff > > Comments? While I make fairly heavy use of screen(1), I am unclear on why this functionality should be included in the base. I can (and do) install it on most systems I build, but I can't see any systemic justification for putting it in the base system. It just makes updating tmux harder. Remember the fun of dealing with Perl when it was in the base system? (Yes, Perl was probably about the worst possible case.) Unless a tool is maintained by the FreeBSD project or is so essential that most it would be inadvisable to have a base system where it was not available (ntp, SSL libraries, C compiler, ssh, ...), I really think adding things to the base is best avoided. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: oberman@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 17:47:28 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41935106566C; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:47:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from poseidon.ceid.upatras.gr (poseidon.ceid.upatras.gr [150.140.141.169]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5D88FC17; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:47:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.ceid.upatras.gr (unknown [10.1.0.143]) by poseidon.ceid.upatras.gr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF267EB4E59; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:24:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from localhost (europa.ceid.upatras.gr [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ceid.upatras.gr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1384512A; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:24:46 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ceid.upatras.gr Received: from mail.ceid.upatras.gr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (europa.ceid.upatras.gr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kssx-bBpjzEY; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:24:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from kobe.laptop (adsl71-241.kln.forthnet.gr [77.49.118.241]) by mail.ceid.upatras.gr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B86450C6; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:24:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from kobe.laptop (kobe.laptop [127.0.0.1]) by kobe.laptop (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8LHOjjm009560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:24:45 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by kobe.laptop (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8LHOisE009559; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:24:44 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Ed Schouten References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090921112917.GA89971@freebsd.org> <20090921113556.GX95398@hoeg.nl> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:24:37 +0300 In-Reply-To: <20090921113556.GX95398@hoeg.nl> (Ed Schouten's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:35:56 +0200") Message-ID: <87ocp443e2.fsf@kobe.laptop> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1.50 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Cc: FreeBSD Arch , Roman Divacky , FreeBSD Current Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:47:28 -0000 --=-=-= On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:35:56 +0200, Ed Schouten wrote: > * Roman Divacky wrote: >> can tmux be configured to be 100% compatible with screen? if so >> are we going to ship with such a config on default? > > Well, we could ship a screen-like config in /usr/share/examples, but in > my opinion we shouldn't enable this by default. It only makes it more > confusing when people switch to different operating systems that don't > use this config. I do think tmux's use of ^B instead of ^A by default is > a bit awkward... ^A is rather comfortable with my Caps Lock key swapped with Ctrl. If the escape character of tmux can be configured to be ^A in the personal startup configuration of each user, the awkwardness of ^B is really a very minor issue. IMO, a sample screen-like config in /usr/share/examples will go a long way towards making tmux in the base system a comfortable and viable screen alternative :) --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) iEUEARECAAYFAkq3ttwACgkQ1g+UGjGGA7aMggCfZ5ImHci0uZKeD9kcs1z8zm+e R8AAl3fY32acdEatBLd83Ipm54qWq5w= =f/2O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 18:21:54 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528E71065679 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:21:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lulf@pvv.ntnu.no) Received: from decibel.pvv.ntnu.no (decibel.pvv.ntnu.no [IPv6:2001:700:300:1900::1:2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3A198FC1E for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:21:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from dip5-cfw-a-gci.trondheim.corp.yahoo.com ([217.144.236.17] helo=carrot.geeknest.org) by decibel.pvv.ntnu.no with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MpnWI-0003kH-3e for arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:21:52 +0200 Message-ID: <4AB7C42F.50704@pvv.ntnu.no> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:21:35 +0200 From: Ulf Lilleengen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090904) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090921112917.GA89971@freebsd.org> <20090921113556.GX95398@hoeg.nl> <20090921131214.1d06b1da@kan.dnsalias.net> In-Reply-To: <20090921131214.1d06b1da@kan.dnsalias.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam-Report: Status=No hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED, MISSING_HEADERS version=3.2.4 Cc: FreeBSD Arch Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:21:54 -0000 Alexander Kabaev wrote: > On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:35:56 +0200 > Ed Schouten wrote: > >> * Roman Divacky wrote: >>> can tmux be configured to be 100% compatible with screen? if so >>> are we going to ship with such a config on default? >> Well, we could ship a screen-like config in /usr/share/examples, but >> in my opinion we shouldn't enable this by default. It only makes it >> more confusing when people switch to different operating systems that >> don't use this config. I do think tmux's use of ^B instead of ^A by >> default is a bit awkward... >> > > We have many, many useful programs in ports. Please let tmux be one of > them. I use screen on every system I can access too and having it in > ports was never too much of a nuisance. > > My $0.02. > +1 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 18:37:39 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E7E106566B for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:37:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 000.fbsd@quip.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [94.124.105.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2E2D8FC1C for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:37:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost.codelab.cz [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA04719E027; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:19:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (r5bb235.net.upc.cz [86.49.61.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CDB1119E019; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:19:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4AB7C396.5050802@quip.cz> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:19:02 +0200 From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: cz, cs, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Oberman References: <20090921173936.65F881CC37@ptavv.es.net> In-Reply-To: <20090921173936.65F881CC37@ptavv.es.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Ed Schouten , current@FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:37:40 -0000 Kevin Oberman wrote: >>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:26:57 +0200 >>From: Ed Schouten >>Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org >> >>Hi all, >> >>At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in >>the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately >>window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and >>tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a >>better license and very active maintenance. >> >>I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I >>spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to >>release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD, >>which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default. >> >>How to test tmux in base: >> >>- Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux: >> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz >>- Apply the following patch: >> http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff >> >>Comments? > > > While I make fairly heavy use of screen(1), I am unclear on why this > functionality should be included in the base. I can (and do) install it > on most systems I build, but I can't see any systemic justification for > putting it in the base system. It just makes updating tmux > harder. Remember the fun of dealing with Perl when it was in the base > system? (Yes, Perl was probably about the worst possible case.) > > Unless a tool is maintained by the FreeBSD project or is so essential > that most it would be inadvisable to have a base system where it was > not available (ntp, SSL libraries, C compiler, ssh, ...), I really think > adding things to the base is best avoided. +1 from me. I am daily screen(1) user but I think it (tmux or screen) should stay as port. It is better to have minimalistic base and easily upgradable ports. Miroslav Lachman From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 19:05:45 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BC0C106568B for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:05:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cokane@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail-out1.fuse.net (mail-out1.fuse.net [216.68.8.175]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D96C8FC08 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:05:44 +0000 (UTC) X-CNFS-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=U43SLuz+mznEeU6k0XtWkcXR9Y++tAUvrsVXj5cPltU= c=1 sm=0 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=FP58Ms26AAAA:8 a=vItJ6SA2AAAA:8 a=k00AjR-Ayg4O1y1qc7IA:9 a=KZvq72kxVkMwIHRqjom7gxFU7_8A:4 a=SV7veod9ZcQA:10 a=Iy6FPoR9cBdGrUcJbbIA:9 a=4_Y6dV5647eVma5Ch9ofrtcf4HgA:4 a=LkYvsgB9u1MH7Ao0BLhsLg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine Authentication-Results: ecout1 smtp.mail=cokane@FreeBSD.org; spf=softfail Received-SPF: softfail (ecout1: transitional domain FreeBSD.org does not designate 74.215.227.9 as permitted sender) Received: from [74.215.227.9] ([74.215.227.9:50883] helo=mail.colemankane.org) by ecout1 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.43 r()) with ESMTP id 87/7A-14944-48EC7BA4; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:05:44 -0400 Received: from [172.20.0.76] (rrcs-96-11-231-210.central.biz.rr.com [96.11.231.210]) by mail.colemankane.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E4191143E; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:09:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Coleman Kane To: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> In-Reply-To: <4AB7C396.5050802@quip.cz> References: <20090921173936.65F881CC37@ptavv.es.net> <4AB7C396.5050802@quip.cz> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-B+hkyZAzvaqT1VSVR0LQ" Organization: FreeBSD Project Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:05:24 -0400 Message-Id: <1253559924.2236.6.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.26.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: Ed Schouten , current@FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.org, Kevin Oberman Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:05:45 -0000 --=-B+hkyZAzvaqT1VSVR0LQ Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2009-09-21 at 20:19 +0200, Miroslav Lachman wrote: > Kevin Oberman wrote: > >>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:26:57 +0200 > >>From: Ed Schouten > >>Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org > >> > >>Hi all, > >> > >>At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in > >>the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately > >>window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and > >>tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a > >>better license and very active maintenance. > >> > >>I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like I > >>spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to > >>release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into HEAD, > >>which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default. > >> > >>How to test tmux in base: > >> > >>- Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux: > >> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz > >>- Apply the following patch: > >> http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff > >> > >>Comments? > >=20 > >=20 > > While I make fairly heavy use of screen(1), I am unclear on why this > > functionality should be included in the base. I can (and do) install it > > on most systems I build, but I can't see any systemic justification for > > putting it in the base system. It just makes updating tmux > > harder. Remember the fun of dealing with Perl when it was in the base > > system? (Yes, Perl was probably about the worst possible case.)=20 > >=20 > > Unless a tool is maintained by the FreeBSD project or is so essential > > that most it would be inadvisable to have a base system where it was > > not available (ntp, SSL libraries, C compiler, ssh, ...), I really thin= k > > adding things to the base is best avoided. >=20 > +1 from me. >=20 > I am daily screen(1) user but I think it (tmux or screen) should stay as=20 > port. It is better to have minimalistic base and easily upgradable ports. >=20 > Miroslav Lachman I agree with this. I would prefer it if more stuff would get relegated to ports (such as sendmail), and I am not really interested in seeing the base system expanded with yet another tool. If I really needed screen or tmux on a system that I was installing from disk, I would make sure to have it written to a packages ISO with all the other third-party applications that I need. I also feel that ports is a more visible place for such a tool to live if ever in the future the community needs someone to take over its maintenance. --=20 Coleman Kane --=-B+hkyZAzvaqT1VSVR0LQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (FreeBSD) iEYEABECAAYFAkq3zm8ACgkQcMSxQcXat5dHJACfRYk019Sy+BXmY0ZF0RskzcJ0 9xIAniPzT22oHG5/bzqnTfmfS859gkDd =YhpR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-B+hkyZAzvaqT1VSVR0LQ-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 19:52:36 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456B8106568D; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:52:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kmatthew.macy@gmail.com) Received: from mail-px0-f204.google.com (mail-px0-f204.google.com [209.85.216.204]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED018FC35; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:52:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pxi42 with SMTP id 42so232754pxi.13 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:52:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:reply-to:received :in-reply-to:references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=agrSaQ89poRNm3XuIGfFLRAdiT79PGt6RxAMsvEfgMs=; b=VlLCGQGPXygM2j+I2no9bh9zYsXBLpu2/gGQgbTQS5pjkpv63C9Dej7xw/6HS4VGvk +VQqAjBvR17P/jz9AVqeNE9MjI+MJitJ1eddDgnzJEKzvTJvZ4IfiFYvz2HdNwEhWJs7 de+Hjnkp7zv9oYDCqPG9o6oIk3ZRGJ0J0pMyc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=NOvWoPvq47PZzwmgBfrFwCgZ4QQLVoghKyIn9QI4HrTdigZe67E9EfDF8XyR+2j8tw gGTsjFDOuwTXM5ibsol2ocxH3nQGwf4Ab979W3YMOfvkDUAWZ+8b6fPTC69F0pWAdWMd glFsYhvDe5nRMFdtWWYI6XIoS9KgXx3yFLc4c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: kmatthew.macy@gmail.com Received: by 10.115.102.9 with SMTP id e9mr8999670wam.199.1253561113172; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:25:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4AB792B7.10206@FreeBSD.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <4AB792B7.10206@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:25:13 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 19fd2b7f40415b33 Message-ID: <82c4140e0909211225j5ab8ecf3q2645323bec99274d@mail.gmail.com> From: "K. Macy" To: Joel Dahl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Ed Schouten , current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: kmacy@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:52:36 -0000 > Screen has almost always been the first thing I install on new machines, but > recently I've been switching more and more machines over to tmux instead. > Having it in base would be a great addition. > The first thing *I* always install is xemacs and zsh... From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 21:02:08 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99782106566C; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:02:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from oberman@es.net) Received: from mailgw.es.net (mail1.es.net [IPv6:2001:400:201:1::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3BB8FC20; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:02:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ptavv.es.net (ptavv.es.net [IPv6:2001:400:910::29]) by mailgw.es.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8LL1xN1006512 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 21 Sep 2009 14:01:59 -0700 Received: from ptavv.es.net (ptavv.es.net [127.0.0.1]) by ptavv.es.net (Tachyon Server) with ESMTP id 2D4D51CC37; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 14:01:59 -0700 (PDT) To: kmacy@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:25:13 PDT." <82c4140e0909211225j5ab8ecf3q2645323bec99274d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 14:01:59 -0700 From: "Kevin Oberman" Message-Id: <20090921210159.2D4D51CC37@ptavv.es.net> X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5, 1.2.40, 4.0.166 definitions=2009-09-21_10:2009-09-17, 2009-09-21, 2009-09-21 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-0909210115 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Ed Schouten , current@freebsd.org, Joel Dahl Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:02:08 -0000 > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:25:13 -0700 > From: "K. Macy" > Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org > > > Screen has almost always been the first thing I install on new > > machines, but recently I've been switching more and more machines > > over to tmux instead. Having it in base would be a great addition. > > > > The first thing *I* always install is xemacs and zsh... most(1) and xemacs(1), but this is getting seriously off topic. 1. Should such a tool be in the base system? 2. If so, should it be screen(1) or tmux(1) I vote 'no' to 1 and 'tmux(1)' for 2. I've just spent a fews minutes with tmux and it has several wins over screen. Then again, FreeBSD is not a democracy, so 'voting' is really just advisory. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: oberman@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 21:06:54 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C88271065676 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:06:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EF088FC29 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:06:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter-phk.freebsd.dk [192.168.48.2]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5590469959 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:50:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8LKnmjd002134 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:50:18 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: arch@freebsd.org From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:34:40 MST." <20090921163440.GC21946@elvis.mu.org> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:49:48 +0000 Message-ID: <2133.1253566188@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:06:54 -0000 Gentlemen, This is an official announcement: The EuroBSDcon2009 Conference is *over*. This bikeshed was started too late to have any chance to qualify as a "conference-bikeshed". If you continue this bikeshed, which is clearly outside a approved venue (as defined in the projects Rules for Bikesheds, section 7.a.1.K, second paragraph) you will be issued penalty, between closing 10 PR's properly and up to a "10 sequential polite, helpful and gramatically correct emails" handicap, in the next official and properly approved project bikeshed. Thank you. On behalf of The Governing Board for Official FreeBSD Bikeshed /s -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 21:31:14 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698D81065741; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:31:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B888FC12; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:31:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AE96D41C; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:31:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EEB32844C6; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:31:12 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Garrett Wollman References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:31:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> (Garrett Wollman's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:09:40 -0400 (EDT)") Message-ID: <863a6gm1cv.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org, alfred@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:31:14 -0000 Garrett Wollman writes: > sudo pkg_add -r screen > > Problem solved. Last I checked, there was no binary package for screen. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 21:36:58 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5FA106566C; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:36:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DECAE8FC08; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:36:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4026D41B; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:36:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 827C3844C6; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:36:56 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Kevin Oberman" References: <20090921210159.2D4D51CC37@ptavv.es.net> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:36:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20090921210159.2D4D51CC37@ptavv.es.net> (Kevin Oberman's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 2009 14:01:59 -0700") Message-ID: <86y6o8kmiv.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org, Joel Dahl , kmacy@freebsd.org, Ed Schouten Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:36:58 -0000 "Kevin Oberman" writes: > 1. Should such a tool be in the base system? We already have window(1). It has a number of features that screen(1) and tmux(1) lack, but it can't detach. > 2. If so, should it be screen(1) or tmux(1) The former is GPL, the latter is BSD. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 21:44:34 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 357D3106566B for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:44:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx21.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C71A98FC12 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:44:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 21230 invoked by uid 399); 21 Sep 2009 21:17:51 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 21 Sep 2009 21:17:51 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4AB7ED76.5010406@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 14:17:42 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090822) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ed Schouten References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> In-Reply-To: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:44:34 -0000 I hate to sound negative, but I really don't find arguments of the sort, "the first thing I install on a new system is 'foo', so 'foo' should be part of the base" compelling.[1] I, like a lot of other FreeBSD users have never used screen or tmux, and probably never will. For my money nohup works just fine for long-lived processes that need a log. But even the "I don't use it so it shouldn't be there" argument is not particularly persuasive. We need to take a hard look at what kind of system we want to have. It's a lot easier to keep userland utilities like tmux up to date from the ports tree than it is in the base. That alone should be the deciding factor, but if you want to hear a chorus of the "bloat" argument then fill it in here. Rather than going down the road of putting everything that some subset of our developer base thinks makes a system "usable" into the base I would like to suggest that the effort be spent on improving the installation tools such that making a system "usable" out of the box is a matter of ticking off a few boxes at install time. That change will benefit a whole lot more users than installing one more userland tool into the base. Doug [1] If we're going to go that route then I'm installing bash. -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 21:55:06 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5211065670; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:55:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8868FC2D; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:55:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109EA6D44C; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:55:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DF981844CE; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:55:04 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Kevin Oberman" References: <20090921210159.2D4D51CC37@ptavv.es.net> <86y6o8kmiv.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:55:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: <86y6o8kmiv.fsf@ds4.des.no> ("Dag-Erling =?utf-8?Q?Sm=C3=B8rg?= =?utf-8?Q?rav=22's?= message of "Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:36:56 +0200") Message-ID: <86tyywklon.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Ed Schouten , arch@freebsd.org, kmacy@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, Joel Dahl Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:55:06 -0000 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > "Kevin Oberman" writes: > > 1. Should such a tool be in the base system? > We already have window(1). It has a number of features that screen(1) > and tmux(1) lack, but it can't detach. > > 2. If so, should it be screen(1) or tmux(1) > The former is GPL, the latter is BSD. Don't construe this as a vote in favor of importing tmux, though. I use screen pretty much everywhere, and I'm perfectly OK with installing it from ports; it's just One Of Those Things that I always do on a new machine, like installing zsh and copying over my zsh{env,rc}. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 23:33:20 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04413106566B for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:33:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wxs@atarininja.org) Received: from syn.atarininja.org (syn.csh.rit.edu [129.21.60.158]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30EC8FC16 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:33:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by syn.atarininja.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6D5965C2D; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:14:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:14:22 -0400 From: Wesley Shields To: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav Message-ID: <20090921231422.GA80793@atarininja.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <863a6gm1cv.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <863a6gm1cv.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Garrett Wollman Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:33:20 -0000 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 11:31:12PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > Garrett Wollman writes: > > sudo pkg_add -r screen > > > > Problem solved. > > Last I checked, there was no binary package for screen. That has recently been changed so there will be packages in the future. -- WXS From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 21 23:46:56 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC371065670 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:46:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrew@areilly.bpa.nu) Received: from nskntqsrv03p.mx.bigpond.com (nskntqsrv03p.mx.bigpond.com [61.9.168.237]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18DF48FC28 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:46:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com ([124.188.161.100]) by nskntmtas04p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20090921215909.OOFB1821.nskntmtas04p.mx.bigpond.com@nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:59:09 +0000 Received: from areilly.bpa.nu ([124.188.161.100]) by nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20090921215909.CEHK28036.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@areilly.bpa.nu> for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:59:09 +0000 Received: (qmail 82088 invoked by uid 501); 21 Sep 2009 21:58:43 -0000 Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 07:58:43 +1000 From: Andrew Reilly To: Alfred Perlstein Message-ID: <20090921215843.GA80840@duncan.reilly.home> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <20090921160955.GZ21946@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090921160955.GZ21946@elvis.mu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-RPD-ScanID: Class unknown; VirusThreatLevel unknown, RefID str=0001.0A150205.4AB7F72D.005F,ss=1,fgs=0 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Garrett Wollman Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:46:56 -0000 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 09:09:55AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Garrett Wollman [090921 06:10] wrote: > > In article <20090921130346.GY21946@elvis.mu.org> you write: > > > > >I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than > > >window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1). > > > > > >We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program. > > > > sudo pkg_add -r screen > > > > Problem solved. > > WORKS GREAT ESP WHEN NETWORK IS DOWN AND SOMEONE NEEDS MY HELP. Well I don't imagine that either screen or tmux are much use when the network is down. > WORKS AWESOME ON REALLY OLD MACHINES WHERE PACKAGES NO LONGER > EXIST. Adding anything to base *now* isn't going to help those machines, either. It'll just ensure that it isn't available in ports, where it *might* be useful. > Note: Apple, which cares more about a usable userland unix than > we do at this time has screen installed in base as well. Yeah, but they also include python, ruby and a full GUI e-mail client, so that's not really much of a comparison. Well, NetBSD ships with X and a bunch of extra things too, so there's clearly room for disagreement on where to draw the line. Personally, if the network is working well enough to ssh into a box, then it's probably working well enough to pkg_add whatever you need. It's not as though screen or tmux are in the same league as ssh (or even telnet) when it comes to shipping a system that is "useful" out of the box. Just IMO. FWIW. Cheers, -- Andrew From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 00:51:13 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D5FF106566B; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:51:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnemmi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f227.google.com (mail-bw0-f227.google.com [209.85.218.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 545A78FC12; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:51:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bwz27 with SMTP id 27so2217285bwz.43 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:51:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=DatwnChwVBSVu/JNlKaIB2qrd8CGGOENlkT7NMR0XCQ=; b=LGosznxFpff+oyb4rtz8a8BXRlQH2BaGd3ulN64iuDATdC2k9ZNbcyxP+1UyzeaDOD UF+HV/elGHu20XmpOIA82Gly2Uz6CQNo+s9Yhqu93c5uWDQUJoZmVbgloWQbjKRJWAJO HgFrCB6L9EpETYknZhGzMtwIr8yICTgwHe6tI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=qczPAbnpcnhrV4ahiVH/OPRmHxcwZEAd1qCEsnbO/VNlmKeR9C2I3LoUFsCpLnnzaF TQJ0SZ5jQog+T8ipj7GbFv6r+0vGwkClQwCuKeU+gqPSyOedqpFJrymGEMc7zWqIn4aw 2/TRLCSYIkKq7Ccr0IVwv/WVLg55Mdu6piXhg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.179.94 with SMTP id c30mr21125hbg.159.1253579306466; Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:28:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4AB7ED76.5010406@FreeBSD.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <4AB7ED76.5010406@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:28:26 -0300 Message-ID: <19e9a5dc0909211728m159c1b50id00dec2b3f8110b0@mail.gmail.com> From: Gonzalo Nemmi To: Doug Barton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Ed Schouten , current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:51:13 -0000 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > I hate to sound negative, but I really don't find arguments of the > sort, "the first thing I install on a new system is 'foo', so 'foo' > should be part of the base" compelling.[1] I, like a lot of other > FreeBSD users have never used screen or tmux, and probably never will. > For my money nohup works just fine for long-lived processes that need > a log. But even the "I don't use it so it shouldn't be there" argument > is not particularly persuasive. > > We need to take a hard look at what kind of system we want to have. > It's a lot easier to keep userland utilities like tmux up to date from > the ports tree than it is in the base. That alone should be the > deciding factor, but if you want to hear a chorus of the "bloat" > argument then fill it in here. > > Rather than going down the road of putting everything that some subset > of our developer base thinks makes a system "usable" into the base I > would like to suggest that the effort be spent on improving the > installation tools such that making a system "usable" out of the box > is a matter of ticking off a few boxes at install time. That change > will benefit a whole lot more users than installing one more userland > tool into the base. > > Doug > +10 ... bge won't resresume from suspend, a simple kldload atapicam causes a fatal trap12 and ACPI support is just a matter of luck ... and we are at -RC1 ... > [1] If we're going to go that route then I'm installing bash. > I'd get rid of Sendmail and replace it with something more sensible like DMA (DragonFly Mail Agent) ... Even the Fedora guys are thinking about it ... regards Gonzalo Nemmi From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 08:42:14 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CDBF106566B; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:42:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mexas@bristol.ac.uk) Received: from dirg.bris.ac.uk (dirg.bris.ac.uk [137.222.10.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290D38FC13; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:42:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from isis.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.10.63]) by dirg.bris.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mq0ff-00023P-HQ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:24:28 +0100 Received: from mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.187.241]) by isis.bris.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Mq0f3-0006TS-8G; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:24:22 +0100 Received: from mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8M8Njwe064901; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:23:45 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mexas@bristol.ac.uk) Received: (from mexas@localhost) by mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8M8NiWN064900; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:23:45 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mexas@bristol.ac.uk) X-Authentication-Warning: mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk: mexas set sender to mexas@bristol.ac.uk using -f Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:23:44 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht To: Doug Barton Message-ID: <20090922082344.GA64877@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <4AB7ED76.5010406@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4AB7ED76.5010406@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: ---- Cc: Ed Schouten , current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:42:14 -0000 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 02:17:42PM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > I hate to sound negative, but I really don't find arguments of the > sort, "the first thing I install on a new system is 'foo', so 'foo' > should be part of the base" compelling.[1] I, like a lot of other > FreeBSD users have never used screen or tmux, and probably never will. > For my money nohup works just fine for long-lived processes that need > a log. But even the "I don't use it so it shouldn't be there" argument > is not particularly persuasive. > > We need to take a hard look at what kind of system we want to have. > It's a lot easier to keep userland utilities like tmux up to date from > the ports tree than it is in the base. That alone should be the > deciding factor, but if you want to hear a chorus of the "bloat" > argument then fill it in here. > > Rather than going down the road of putting everything that some subset > of our developer base thinks makes a system "usable" into the base I > would like to suggest that the effort be spent on improving the > installation tools such that making a system "usable" out of the box > is a matter of ticking off a few boxes at install time. That change > will benefit a whole lot more users than installing one more userland > tool into the base. I completely agree -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 331 5944 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 10:09:58 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63B481065692; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:09:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from boogie@lazybytes.org) Received: from mail.lazybytes.org (odin.rinet.ru [195.54.209.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D1008FC26; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:09:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost.localdomain (broadband-77-37-224-248.nationalcablenetworks.ru [77.37.224.248]) by mail.lazybytes.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46CDC14036E4; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:52:15 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:54:35 +0400 From: Sergey Vinogradov To: Ed Schouten Message-ID: <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> In-Reply-To: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.2 (GTK+ 2.16.5; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/OD=pnI0MagHgEAwaLAqYPo3"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:09:58 -0000 --Sig_/OD=pnI0MagHgEAwaLAqYPo3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =D0=92 Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:26:57 +0200 Ed Schouten =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=88=D0=B5=D1=82: > Hi all, >=20 > At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) > in the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately > window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) > and tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first > has a better license and very active maintenance. >=20 > I was talking with the author on IRC the other day and it seemed like > I spoke with him at a fortunate moment, because he was just about to > release version 1.0. I think it would be nice to import this into > HEAD, which means FreeBSD 9.0 (maybe 8.1?) will include it by default. >=20 > How to test tmux in base: >=20 > - Download this tarball and extract it to contrib/tmux: > http://downloads.sourceforge.net/tmux/tmux-1.0.tar.gz > - Apply the following patch: > http://80386.nl/pub/tmux.diff >=20 > Comments? >=20 I don't think tmux(1) should be included in the base system. As it was mentioned, it will be hard to update it, many people will still install screen(1) because they still like it more, or just got used to it, the system will become a little more bloated, and nobody likes when that happens :) Offtopic part (maybe we should start another discussion thread): The thing I'll be happy to see someday in base system is zsh(1). tcsh(1) syntax is not Bourne shell compatible, and sh(1) sucks at interactive work; it's a big deal for me, I'd like to have a shell that can do both things simultaneously :) Despite the zsh(1) has appropriate license, it needs autotools and iconv (both GPL AFAIK), so it's hard to include in the base system. The things in the base system I always wondered about are sendmail and bind9. These are pretty heavy, and definitely are not used in every single installation. Maybe someday I'll see sendmail and bind9 in ports instead of base system. And yes, I know about WITHOUT_BIND=3D and WITHOUT_SENDMAIL=3D :) --=20 wbr, Boo --Sig_/OD=pnI0MagHgEAwaLAqYPo3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq4ntsACgkQCt8hfbw1GpZElgCeI1uLxg9Gx3MplE+SHw3G5wBE RgYAn3iGIMJ/SQmIDf+TSpPQZCt0gqqS =CNWZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/OD=pnI0MagHgEAwaLAqYPo3-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 11:25:49 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D996D106566B; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:25:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nick@van-laarhoven.org) Received: from baranao.anywi.com (baranao.anywi.com [213.207.101.176]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FCA8FC14; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:25:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from Hillary.van-laarhoven.org (ip51cfcfde.direct-adsl.nl [81.207.207.222]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by baranao.anywi.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C71373F41C; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:06:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <37B47737-E4A4-4CF3-9DAA-B0F0A4CC8901@van-laarhoven.org> From: Nick Hibma To: current@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20090922082344.GA64877@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:06:42 +0200 References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <4AB7ED76.5010406@FreeBSD.org> <20090922082344.GA64877@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on baranao.anywi.com Cc: Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:25:49 -0000 >> Rather than going down the road of putting everything that some >> subset >> of our developer base thinks makes a system "usable" into the base I >> would like to suggest that the effort be spent on improving the >> installation tools such that making a system "usable" out of the box >> is a matter of ticking off a few boxes at install time. That change >> will benefit a whole lot more users than installing one more user >> land >> tool into the base. > > I completely agree While pondering a +1 for tmux in the base system, I realised that the first thing I install is bash and vim, but the existing tools are suitable for booting a system. Another argument against including it is compilation time: It takes more than 10 seconds to compile tmux (I expected it to be 1 source file to be compiled, silly me) on my Hamster-powered (tm) server, so it would add a significant of overhead to buildworld. Our package system is a tremendous asset, and wholeheartedly agree with Doug on this. So my vote is now a -1. Not that anyone cares. Nick P.S.: I've added 'tmux' to the default packages of our nanobsd image build system. Thanks for the suggestion! From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 11:36:53 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797EF106566B; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:36:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 000.fbsd@quip.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [94.124.105.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370728FC15; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:36:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost.codelab.cz [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AE219E023; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:36:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (r5bb235.net.upc.cz [86.49.61.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F22C519E027; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:36:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4AB8B6D0.2000809@quip.cz> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:36:48 +0200 From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: cz, cs, en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sergey Vinogradov References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> In-Reply-To: <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Ed Schouten , current@FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:36:53 -0000 Sergey Vinogradov wrote: > Ð’ Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:26:57 +0200 > Ed Schouten пишет: [...] > I don't think tmux(1) should be included in the base system. As it was > mentioned, it will be hard to update it, many people will still install > screen(1) because they still like it more, or just got used to it, the > system will become a little more bloated, and nobody likes when that > happens :) [...] > The things in the base system I always wondered about are sendmail > and bind9. These are pretty heavy, and definitely are not used in every > single installation. Maybe someday I'll see sendmail and bind9 in ports > instead of base system. And yes, I know about WITHOUT_BIND= and > WITHOUT_SENDMAIL= :) I can second this. I am using Sendmail only on one machine (replaced with Postfix on the others) and the same with BIND. It should be better to not have them in base, but have them as ports with special care of FreeBSD team. It will give us better possibility of updates and fixes for users who are using them. And if SW like this will be available for install by sysinstall in some extra category as 'always on the first / minimal media' (or installed by default?), then anybody can install it if needed. Miroslav Lachman From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 13:37:22 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9036A106568F for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:37:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from swell.k@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ew0-f209.google.com (mail-ew0-f209.google.com [209.85.219.209]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C9D8FC1D for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:37:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ewy5 with SMTP id 5so413655ewy.36 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 06:37:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:cc:subject:references :date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=B0RefnWtwB8lB3BtKJ8U2/gVE1JqwVWjNgCzrl4mmU4=; b=SlVmi3Bqaus7xIK67QM6SnSeMo6ExTNliAZ6DzAsFU2srOuFCLJUVUdctMtNimbJhz WcKs5sW5uvMnSW3mdi0EY1fqSqB4t/7NEvKZMxcPPLNppluXWYAktD+IWrA4wAqam/TO Yr52n7ODwPVYIBLPdvrK9EDHfcMFN/GMvt90E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; b=Cm8T35RV/hSBOeggcyjxzPd8V4MIjLLT6tjJfanoMfnKYGGjy7chce80y22vz+nN32 tk5AkZdZeEKoa/EpU9bOYiVJAQy50bmf43u50oQN6BP7RrkHfziYzMmm9oJnZvkFpoiB DA1kKtswNUz9fzojlj+g0IYM8NC9r7QTriqkY= Received: by 10.211.146.1 with SMTP id y1mr4603728ebn.0.1253625209188; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 06:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (95-24-211-3.broadband.corbina.ru [95.24.211.3]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 28sm205650eyg.41.2009.09.22.06.13.27 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 22 Sep 2009 06:13:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Anonymous To: Ed Schouten References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:12:57 +0400 In-Reply-To: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> (Ed Schouten's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:26:57 +0200") Message-ID: <86ab0n2kdi.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1.50 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:37:22 -0000 Ed Schouten writes: > Hi all, > > At the DevSummit in Cambridge we briefly discussed including tmux(1) in > the base system. We recently had window(1) there, but unfortunately > window(1) was a very limited tool, compared to tools like screen(1) and > tmux(1). Why tmux(1) and not screen(1)? Well, simple. The first has a > better license and very active maintenance. I think some simple tool like dtach(1) but with BSD-friendly license would be better suited for base system. And unlike mg(1) which is preferable to have in /rescue I don't think there is a reason to have tmux(1) in base other than avoiding ports. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 16:42:08 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C3D4106568B; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:42:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brucec@muon.cran.org.uk) Received: from muon.cran.org.uk (muon.cran.org.uk [66.246.138.153]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339998FC18; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:42:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by muon.cran.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 585DB81D4; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:25:00 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:25:00 +0000 From: Bruce Cran To: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav Message-ID: <20090922162500.GA29224@muon.cran.org.uk> References: <20090921210159.2D4D51CC37@ptavv.es.net> <86y6o8kmiv.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86y6o8kmiv.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: Ed Schouten , current@freebsd.org, Kevin Oberman , arch@freebsd.org, Joel Dahl , kmacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:42:08 -0000 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 11:36:56PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > "Kevin Oberman" writes: > > 1. Should such a tool be in the base system? > > We already have window(1). It has a number of features that screen(1) > and tmux(1) lack, but it can't detach. No we don't - it was removed at the start of June and moved to misc/window. -- Bruce Cran From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 17:07:31 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77FC61065672 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:07:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx21.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086D68FC16 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:07:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 8317 invoked by uid 399); 22 Sep 2009 17:07:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 22 Sep 2009 17:07:26 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:07:20 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090822) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sergey Vinogradov References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> In-Reply-To: <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:07:31 -0000 Sergey Vinogradov wrote: > The things in the base system I always wondered about are sendmail > and bind9. These are pretty heavy, and definitely are not used in every > single installation. Maybe someday I'll see sendmail and bind9 in ports > instead of base system. And yes, I know about WITHOUT_BIND= and > WITHOUT_SENDMAIL= :) For about the millionth time ... :) I would be perfectly happy to remove BIND, however most people want some or all of dig, host, or nslookup in the base, which means that about 60% or more of the BIND source code has to be there to allow that. From there it's a pretty simple leap to "let's build it all then because that's how we've always done it." The next-best thing would be to flip the knobs so that we're not building named and friends by default which I'm happy to do if people want it done, but no one ever comes up with a clear consensus to do it. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 17:14:14 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55CE0106566B; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:14:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnemmi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f222.google.com (mail-fx0-f222.google.com [209.85.220.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879A88FC08; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:14:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm22 with SMTP id 22so2456899fxm.36 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:14:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=UAT+3JXMTKL8zmMpNVmghOoTdxsNngMw9vIMFmQL+xM=; b=PsrjpGmWo9B0Z2GRtFJXWfSgrSBjN6t4ci8uUI+mzC8clceWyNwFsuTEyoqX3fVIpr oSHuyunkc37FSzsdElrZaJw9C8DLQ2tHrbhz44wm1mEYohA/oS2erhEvNzJ8AC56W1Rr ou/8Lda/djrHVM2AW8wFT10tc8ow8/gvIaK9o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=FFxL5kSaUZS/Wip5dxCXdVZtRnvITrUqhmZV6HIinfzmuC7SjZrQoeuTQB8h+qjlzk oiIv75qTQz+1CVgQ/4znj3aMeUJ4D4CqZJAH/HVLmfbuwZ1E6Z1RQ2paSHsk6P5F4eUy Ss0dyaRFzn4bhxWTe8H4gjL72dV3Ogu7Hx5LQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.170.35 with SMTP id q35mr97918hbe.150.1253639652271; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:14:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:14:12 -0300 Message-ID: <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> From: Gonzalo Nemmi To: Doug Barton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Sergey Vinogradov , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:14:14 -0000 ... and what about sendmail?? couldn't it be easily replaced by DMA Regards Gonzalo On 9/22/09, Doug Barton wrote: > Sergey Vinogradov wrote: >> The things in the base system I always wondered about are sendmail >> and bind9. These are pretty heavy, and definitely are not used in every >> single installation. Maybe someday I'll see sendmail and bind9 in ports >> instead of base system. And yes, I know about WITHOUT_BIND= and >> WITHOUT_SENDMAIL= :) > > For about the millionth time ... :) > > I would be perfectly happy to remove BIND, however most people want > some or all of dig, host, or nslookup in the base, which means that > about 60% or more of the BIND source code has to be there to allow > that. From there it's a pretty simple leap to "let's build it all then > because that's how we've always done it." > > The next-best thing would be to flip the knobs so that we're not > building named and friends by default which I'm happy to do if people > want it done, but no one ever comes up with a clear consensus to do it. > > > Doug > > -- > > This .signature sanitized for your protection > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 17:33:14 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6983106566C for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:33:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from mail-px0-f204.google.com (mail-px0-f204.google.com [209.85.216.204]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90EE08FC12 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:33:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pxi42 with SMTP id 42so996058pxi.13 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:33:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.24.12 with SMTP id b12mr2043770waj.86.1253640793890; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:33:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:33:13 -0700 Message-ID: From: Peter Wemm To: Gonzalo Nemmi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Sergey Vinogradov , Doug Barton , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:33:14 -0000 On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 10:14 AM, Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: > ... and what about sendmail?? > couldn't it be easily replaced by DMA > > Regards > Gonzalo I just went and had a quick at dma's info. It looks almost exactly like what I've been saying for ages we should have in the base instead of a heavyweight MTA. "It accepts mails from locally installed Mail User Agents (MUA) and delivers the mails either locally or to a remote destination. Remote delivery includes several features like TLS/SSL support and SMTP authentication." On the subject of host/dig/nslookup. We had an old 'host' and 'nslookup' that were replaced with bind's heavyweight versions. Perhaps those could be revived and refreshed? The functionality of 'host' that I care about is: peter@overcee[10:19AM]~-1177> host www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com is an alias for www.wa1.b.yahoo.com. www.wa1.b.yahoo.com is an alias for www-real.wa1.b.yahoo.com. www-real.wa1.b.yahoo.com has address 209.131.36.158 peter@overcee[10:31AM]~-1178> host yahoo.com yahoo.com has address 209.191.93.53 yahoo.com has address 69.147.114.224 yahoo.com has address 209.131.36.159 yahoo.com mail is handled by 1 g.mx.mail.yahoo.com. yahoo.com mail is handled by 1 a.mx.mail.yahoo.com. yahoo.com mail is handled by 1 b.mx.mail.yahoo.com. yahoo.com mail is handled by 1 c.mx.mail.yahoo.com. yahoo.com mail is handled by 1 d.mx.mail.yahoo.com. yahoo.com mail is handled by 1 e.mx.mail.yahoo.com. yahoo.com mail is handled by 1 f.mx.mail.yahoo.com. peter@overcee[10:31AM]~-1179> host 209.131.36.158 158.36.131.209.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer f1.www.vip.sp1.yahoo.com. In other words, it's going to have to talk to the res_* functions in libc again instead of bind's replacement. -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; KI6FJV "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 "If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution." -- Robert Sewell From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 17:35:17 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679F010656A3; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:35:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7B18FC1E; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:35:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8MHZHZL063383; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8MHZH8s063382; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:35:17 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Gonzalo Nemmi Message-ID: <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Sergey Vinogradov , Doug Barton , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:35:17 -0000 On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 02:14:12PM -0300, Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: > ... and what about sendmail?? I suppose it doesn't matter to you that sendmail is actually maintained by Greg Shapiro, VP, CTO of Sendmail, Inc. > couldn't it be easily replaced by DMA If you don't want to build and use sendmail, see http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/mail-changingmta.html -- Steve From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 17:42:45 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85475106568F; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:42:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from mail-px0-f204.google.com (mail-px0-f204.google.com [209.85.216.204]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F7CD8FC1E; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:42:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pxi42 with SMTP id 42so1002455pxi.13 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:42:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.7.13 with SMTP id 13mr2005786wag.82.1253639502658; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:11:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4AB7A708.5080209@FreeBSD.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <200909211237.n8LCbkxV017364@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <200909211309.n8LD9eTr017654@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <20090921160955.GZ21946@elvis.mu.org> <4AB7A708.5080209@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:11:42 -0700 Message-ID: From: Peter Wemm To: Joel Dahl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Alfred Perlstein , Garrett Wollman Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:42:45 -0000 On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Joel Dahl wrote: > Alfred Perlstein skrev: >> >> * Garrett Wollman [090921 06:10] wrote: >>> >>> In article <20090921130346.GY21946@elvis.mu.org> you write: >>> >>>> I think he already explained that it's supposedly much better than >>>> window(1) with a kinder license than screen(1). >>>> >>>> We really ought to ship with a screen(1)-like program. >>> >>> sudo pkg_add -r screen >>> >>> Problem solved. >> >> WORKS GREAT ESP WHEN NETWORK IS DOWN AND SOMEONE NEEDS MY HELP. >> >> WORKS AWESOME ON REALLY OLD MACHINES WHERE PACKAGES NO LONGER >> EXIST. >> >> Note: Apple, which cares more about a usable userland unix than >> we do at this time has screen installed in base as well. > > OpenBSD has tmux in base...and I've seen discussions on the NetBSD lists > about importing tmux (as a window(1) replacement) into NetBSD base as > well... =A0:-) For what its worth, I'd like to see tmux in base. I'd use it. It won't get in the way of the screen users. Leave screen where it is. --=20 Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; KI6FJV "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 "If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution." -- Robert Sewell From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 17:45:58 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9533B1065670; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:45:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnemmi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f227.google.com (mail-bw0-f227.google.com [209.85.218.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC618FC2B; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:45:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bwz27 with SMTP id 27so2702684bwz.43 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:45:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=5m9vdV+wk1falUliAuh7vhNbKVwPNfdlRWyNLSiLduE=; b=wsH4EK/rCssKFZFeEfRu4Ai3h2ORcZRzpoMzdH6AK9sk9mwqcMudaqWBX2fHET0p1r sMrAaKHEhzAQV+9ZhuQPHvujtdcSqcRWY4UOIs244JB2UpcYGd8ColYHPiLY7cH7k+rO f8N1wSZDWAQoSHPVCZU9XaSKXhxGaCaSOVbuk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=E+aT4ZE3JebmDYXyKEU0AUPcCoGmB6XtuCRPAJ3x2JXb+8Ot3xJ6Erc1U3FPCN3hlI 2kKTozj1+fifQCNujHRCyiwfNZ/7dMrpq+EkZzXAGl2labLCWK9NF0tOETwB4wTzSe9u t53raCPr6DejtpgYn1QrgiH1HqglOELfQR8Vw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.237.193 with SMTP id k1mr107004hbp.173.1253641556448; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:45:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:45:56 -0300 Message-ID: <19e9a5dc0909221045q6dfa1affv4955b5b51107f514@mail.gmail.com> From: Gonzalo Nemmi To: Peter Wemm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Sergey Vinogradov , Doug Barton , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:45:58 -0000 On 9/22/09, Peter Wemm wrote: > On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 10:14 AM, Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: >> ... and what about sendmail?? >> couldn't it be easily replaced by DMA >> >> Regards >> Gonzalo > > I just went and had a quick at dma's info. It looks almost exactly > like what I've been saying for ages we should have in the base instead > of a heavyweight MTA. > > "It accepts mails from locally > installed Mail User Agents (MUA) and delivers the mails either locally > or to a remote destination. Remote delivery includes several features > like TLS/SSL support and SMTP authentication." > Yes ... that's exactly I'm suggesting it. =D Regards Gonzalo From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 17:53:55 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965A510656A7; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:53:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnemmi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f227.google.com (mail-bw0-f227.google.com [209.85.218.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82488FC20; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:53:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bwz27 with SMTP id 27so2708060bwz.43 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:53:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=uUU3+swXbX4sKAY87l7xNN75Cvosmcnc7O6qczXWe0Q=; b=t9EEZysYOadaYijNrbDNMGhAXMtF5MJz1H73y8VlQozcVbHquvShOt67aMF1jBtY6s tMV41p7arrRN3xeRSna/ntsu6Qp6K8X+XbLnJ8Y9CPBpC1V37ohzgiW4eWdnC6T2ao9p p7hv17h6nFhwlJKbuwqnm7Oo32IzhWpjtlOXk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=joU7qQKHqvGWy8Zi06lwW3rlNGjkeSGU+CT5mpmUmv17qt5gjEulYB3OQMaE6VokWd 0DokQQsoV0KDm2oZJOtYTBikKZXhmFu+hz919VGzQBjSflg8x6JabE9AKGk5Zmllpr8/ GrUUGvwoIq7Q2U1cHbXQ7p2rJOtT8sV/hszxk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.181.163 with SMTP id m35mr101548hbg.175.1253642033328; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:53:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:53:53 -0300 Message-ID: <19e9a5dc0909221053r4ada92bege718e37aa575e0de@mail.gmail.com> From: Gonzalo Nemmi To: Steve Kargl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Sergey Vinogradov , Doug Barton , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:53:55 -0000 On 9/22/09, Steve Kargl wrote: > On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 02:14:12PM -0300, Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: >> ... and what about sendmail?? > > I suppose it doesn't matter to you that sendmail is > actually maintained by Greg Shapiro, VP, CTO of > Sendmail, Inc. No, not really ... >> couldn't it be easily replaced by DMA > > If you don't want to build and use sendmail, see > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/mail-changingmta.html With all due respect, I already know that .. it's pretty clear in the different manuals, hanbooks and how-ro's ... and that's exactly why I never asked how can I remove sendmail and replace it with dma .. the question was more inclined in the way: why such a heavywheight (which is what a lot of users seem to be saying, and I agree with them) when we could do just as well with dma (let alone the fact that we could then cooperate with DragonFly, creating synergy, advancing toghether towards the same goal amongst a plenty of other advantages). Best Regards Gonzalo From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 18:55:53 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6081065693 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:55:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx21.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29DDF8FC16 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:55:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 15151 invoked by uid 399); 22 Sep 2009 18:55:46 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 22 Sep 2009 18:55:46 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4AB91DAA.5010000@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:55:38 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090822) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gonzalo Nemmi References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <19e9a5dc0909221053r4ada92bege718e37aa575e0de@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <19e9a5dc0909221053r4ada92bege718e37aa575e0de@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Sergey Vinogradov , current@freebsd.org, Steve Kargl Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:55:53 -0000 Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: > With all due respect, I already know that .. it's pretty clear in the > different manuals, hanbooks and how-ro's ... and that's exactly why I > never asked how can I remove sendmail and replace it with dma .. the > question was more inclined in the way: why such a heavywheight (which > is what a lot of users seem to be saying, and I agree with them) when > we could do just as well with dma So do it already. :) A lot of people have talked about this, but no one has put code where their mouth is. Create a POC and post it to -arch, then we have something concrete to discuss. And please, don't bother with the "But I don't want to do the work if it isn't going to be accepted into the base" argument. There are way more than enough people whinging about this topic that your work will have an appreciative audience, which is all the reward we get around here. > (let alone the fact that we could > then cooperate with DragonFly, creating synergy, advancing toghether > towards the same goal amongst a plenty of other advantages). While those are nice words I don't think they have any meaning in the real world. We're dealing with a technical issue, we need to keep the discussion on technical terms. -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 20:04:53 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813C81065670; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:04:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gshapiro@freebsd.org) Received: from zim.gshapiro.net (zim.gshapiro.net [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:36::224]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B58F8FC12; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:04:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rugsucker.local (natted.sendmail.com [63.211.143.38]) (authenticated bits=128) by zim.gshapiro.net (8.14.4.Alpha1/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8MK4oti064189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:04:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gshapiro@freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:04:49 -0700 From: Gregory Shapiro To: Steve Kargl Message-ID: <20090922200449.GL19207@rugsucker.local> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: arch@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:04:53 -0000 > I suppose it doesn't matter to you that sendmail is actually > maintained by Greg Shapiro, VP, CTO of Sendmail, Inc. While I appreciate the vote of confidence, it doesn't, and it shouldn't. I'll continue to maintain sendmail in the base as long as it is welcome there. If the project wants it moved out, that is not up to me (though I hope it stays). I haven't spent a lot of time looking at DMA, but some requirements that pop to mind for it to be a replacement would be things like accepting local mail via SMTP (e.g., for MUAs which use SMTP submission) and supporting STARTTLS and SMTP AUTH for talking to the upstream MTA. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 20:29:28 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CFBB106566C; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:29:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnemmi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f227.google.com (mail-bw0-f227.google.com [209.85.218.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 320DC8FC16; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:29:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bwz27 with SMTP id 27so78697bwz.43 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:29:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lsUL1qbinv73+mbaZiP+HHQ8zce2cJZ9jveMq9qJGRk=; b=qT50M//VWMOSVLw4nSGGX8hNSTQFEeupLEeLt/sb5C6S2KrfaeACMr3NEEfuui+U+F Tni6P8NGPv6jPqOT7BK5NsBs30WlXaidktMTMDJNh4fKY0DfQBDQGp0qClNIeBr2uMB4 S7WE9ty5DLGadNlkx1NglXrYxsTOH41YdoAvU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LKG8zVo4c6p6ZFVqKi5NJzroyv2SFAXItw55cDqoMCHOqZr5Pw/yYjaupj7yvwmQ6/ 0kumdQngur7CNOvf4tOyGEC9MnMkyj2YJrtU/Ke2Y0C0CuEVPiDdq2XdBAqzV5oR++lg KvqBdNWoIhhY1lFJpYh2fQrWAu78TqzsxVFF8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.183.75 with SMTP id t11mr108170hbg.205.1253651365847; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:29:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090922200449.GL19207@rugsucker.local> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20090922200449.GL19207@rugsucker.local> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:29:25 -0300 Message-ID: <19e9a5dc0909221329j5757c3f7kc23e94ea8f26a05@mail.gmail.com> From: Gonzalo Nemmi To: Gregory Shapiro Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, Steve Kargl Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:29:28 -0000 On 9/22/09, Gregory Shapiro wrote: >> I suppose it doesn't matter to you that sendmail is actually >> maintained by Greg Shapiro, VP, CTO of Sendmail, Inc. > > While I appreciate the vote of confidence, it doesn't, and it shouldn't. > I'll continue to maintain sendmail in the base as long as it is welcome > there. If the project wants it moved out, that is not up to me (though > I hope it stays). > > I haven't spent a lot of time looking at DMA, but some requirements that > pop to mind for it to be a replacement would be things like accepting > local mail via SMTP (e.g., for MUAs which use SMTP submission) and > supporting STARTTLS and SMTP AUTH for talking to the upstream MTA. Dear Mr. Gregory Shapiro: I'm writing this letter to let you know that I have nothing personal against either your person, your professional work, your contributions to the FreeBSD project, your personal and professional merits or anything at all. I was prompt with an dubiously honest question and I replied with an honest answer, as I know no other way, and yet still stand in the belief that the use of names as means to declare any authority, be it moral or otherwise, constitutes no truth nor does any good to reason. With that beign said, I hereby show my respect and thank you for your invaluable contribution to the FreeBSD project, as well as I thank you for clarifying me "why should sendmail remain in base", which is something that no one has ever done this far. My apologies for the inconveniences or offenses I might unwittingly have caused you. Sincerily yours Gonzalo Ra=FAl Nemmi From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 20:44:00 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91921106568B; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:44:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gshapiro@gshapiro.net) Received: from zim.gshapiro.net (zim.gshapiro.net [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:36::224]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544F48FC18; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:44:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rugsucker.local (natted.sendmail.com [63.211.143.38]) (authenticated bits=128) by zim.gshapiro.net (8.14.4.Alpha1/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8MKhup2065442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:43:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gshapiro@gshapiro.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gshapiro.net; s=gatsby.dkim; t=1253652240; bh=rOj+17wQHQU9pJUyPe4yMauLKmYe3GmjuXsUTq8smHw=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:In-Reply-To; b=iu9ELx2B8oqejZ0BTg0l0F2NFQZ/as8x8NaUd58SB4MqWIuX80y9jtX1rajFqGzWY Ircfzgq6i9zSH/DGFNreE1CcC3EdrywUlAsClR7K2/BUOmt16Fj9YLQU0nw8FGM7ap Mw/HWKut/0axv8zDKsbKYhKaHs7bz+dwsi73mQgM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=gatsby; d=gshapiro.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; b=SSQrCbsPgyeXa8s0dD8e4ersbf4aQ5YblT4B0lO/9WBkHWXM8008vY9rdydcrAlLg G3CwBMMsQoRwb+czhqJ/ezoH8AIJqG/eRfFG3na00+wntXw/dCfWkdAy2Goxvoxr5rB EXLh3cJAbTWBQdJ0+FIzT1SzAm5FHcSIDzUZmvA= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:43:56 -0700 From: Gregory Shapiro To: Gonzalo Nemmi Message-ID: <20090922204356.GM19207@rugsucker.local> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20090922200449.GL19207@rugsucker.local> <19e9a5dc0909221329j5757c3f7kc23e94ea8f26a05@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19e9a5dc0909221329j5757c3f7kc23e94ea8f26a05@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: arch@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, Steve Kargl Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:44:00 -0000 > My apologies for the inconveniences or offenses I might unwittingly > have caused you. Oh no, none necessary at all and I am sorry if my reply to Steve was misinterpreted. I wanted to both thank Steve for the recognition and also agree with you -- who I am doesn't enter into the picture, all that matters is what is best for the project. The only other factor that enters into the decision making is if sendmail is being actively and properly maintained. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 20:54:57 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D7DB1065692; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:54:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from louie@transsys.com) Received: from ringworld.transsys.com (ringworld.transsys.com [144.202.0.15]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DD18FC17; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:54:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from natpool1-68.transsys.com (c-69-141-150-106.hsd1.nj.comcast.net [69.141.150.106]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: louie) by ringworld.transsys.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA905C04; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:31:59 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes From: Louis Mamakos In-Reply-To: <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:31:58 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <8A3D6B19-8AD6-4222-8C26-4DF87D0709C6@transsys.com> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, Sergey Vinogradov , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 20:54:57 -0000 On Sep 22, 2009, at 1:07 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > > I would be perfectly happy to remove BIND, however most people want > some or all of dig, host, or nslookup in the base, which means that > about 60% or more of the BIND source code has to be there to allow > that. From there it's a pretty simple leap to "let's build it all then > because that's how we've always done it." > > The next-best thing would be to flip the knobs so that we're not > building named and friends by default which I'm happy to do if people > want it done, but no one ever comes up with a clear consensus to do > it. Ideally, FreeBSD out-of-the-box ought to have a caching DNS server as part of the base system. I don't understand myself why people don't run caching name servers on every Internet-connected host, and want to rely on some other external entity. Heck, I run 'em on my nanobad based systems on Soekris boxes; the footprint really isn't that large. BIND serves this purpose adequately, though I'm sure that there are endless other possibilities better/faster/smaller/cheaper/prettier.. louie From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 21:11:39 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E0C106566C; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:11:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnemmi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f227.google.com (mail-bw0-f227.google.com [209.85.218.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07FAE8FC1E; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:11:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bwz27 with SMTP id 27so105798bwz.43 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:11:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ivucsl5OrFSJ5cLSFxEw+xhZVvkcJOORy7tANuCruCk=; b=xzosbPO0eAJzwy/3nQgX2+wYLLzq8U1djp/+GbLrQnSXPsdl/U9J+72yHe2b6Vry44 GqtzzNB6WlJXVqjoK6IeV0zc3sllibZZs7NShZF+72RpEYxvXgYyYgSq0y03kVhaYagF 4vg47vceBSzwEfQQtZzZvP8jBjo1J0hR6pS+Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=gZvXPUYbq4XhqhrvLQEqlILt8ZrxHqPVquAr9SPQwZPmw/2v+n3ehUomA9z5ngNNYz 9wI0t7ReBLOT2KSLhzDPDwG51cF/9FiuzmYKAhRVUScu4jnYCSAl4w71mg7a2EE4DszO VxXSdRREZ1OO62DpQXzrn3pDANxRHH7EFDyR0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.237.193 with SMTP id k1mr129902hbp.173.1253653897622; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:11:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4AB91DAA.5010000@FreeBSD.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <19e9a5dc0909221053r4ada92bege718e37aa575e0de@mail.gmail.com> <4AB91DAA.5010000@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:11:37 -0300 Message-ID: <19e9a5dc0909221411n1486cb80x220384b37daee921@mail.gmail.com> From: Gonzalo Nemmi To: Doug Barton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Sergey Vinogradov , current@freebsd.org, Steve Kargl Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:11:39 -0000 On 9/22/09, Doug Barton wrote: > Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: > >> With all due respect, I already know that .. it's pretty clear in the >> different manuals, hanbooks and how-ro's ... and that's exactly why I >> never asked how can I remove sendmail and replace it with dma .. the >> question was more inclined in the way: why such a heavywheight (which >> is what a lot of users seem to be saying, and I agree with them) when >> we could do just as well with dma > > So do it already. :) A lot of people have talked about this, but no > one has put code where their mouth is. Create a POC and post it to > -arch, then we have something concrete to discuss. And please, don't > bother with the "But I don't want to do the work if it isn't going to > be accepted into the base" argument. There are way more than enough > people whinging about this topic that your work will have an > appreciative audience, which is all the reward we get around here. Dear Doug: Those words were just an explanation to Steve Kargl's misleading interpretation of my former e-mail. >> (let alone the fact that we could >> then cooperate with DragonFly, creating synergy, advancing toghether >> towards the same goal amongst a plenty of other advantages). > > While those are nice words I don't think they have any meaning in the > real world. We're dealing with a technical issue, we need to keep the > discussion on technical terms. Oh they do .. believe me ... specially to me, the paying customer =) Regards Gonzalo From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 21:26:51 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A761106568F; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:26:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37BD48FC47; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:26:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8MLQp71013401; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:26:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8MLQpP7013394; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:26:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:26:50 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Gonzalo Nemmi Message-ID: <20090922212650.GA84817@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <19e9a5dc0909221053r4ada92bege718e37aa575e0de@mail.gmail.com> <4AB91DAA.5010000@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221411n1486cb80x220384b37daee921@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19e9a5dc0909221411n1486cb80x220384b37daee921@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Sergey Vinogradov , Doug Barton , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:26:51 -0000 On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 06:11:37PM -0300, Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: > On 9/22/09, Doug Barton wrote: > > Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: > > > >> With all due respect, I already know that .. it's pretty clear in the > >> different manuals, hanbooks and how-ro's ... and that's exactly why I > >> never asked how can I remove sendmail and replace it with dma .. the > >> question was more inclined in the way: why such a heavywheight (which > >> is what a lot of users seem to be saying, and I agree with them) when > >> we could do just as well with dma > > > > So do it already. :) A lot of people have talked about this, but no > > one has put code where their mouth is. Create a POC and post it to > > -arch, then we have something concrete to discuss. And please, don't > > bother with the "But I don't want to do the work if it isn't going to > > be accepted into the base" argument. There are way more than enough > > people whinging about this topic that your work will have an > > appreciative audience, which is all the reward we get around here. > > Dear Doug: > > Those words were just an explanation to Steve Kargl's misleading > interpretation of my former e-mail. > My interpretation was not misleading. If anything my comment was informative because there was no indication in your post that you knew the history and continued maintenance of sendmail nor did you indicate that you knew how to replace sendmail via the Handbook's description. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 21:31:28 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0523510656A3; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:31:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D32638FC23; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:31:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8MLVRjA030751; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8MLVRAh030747; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:31:27 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Gonzalo Nemmi Message-ID: <20090922213127.GB84817@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20090922200449.GL19207@rugsucker.local> <19e9a5dc0909221329j5757c3f7kc23e94ea8f26a05@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19e9a5dc0909221329j5757c3f7kc23e94ea8f26a05@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Gregory Shapiro , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:31:28 -0000 On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 05:29:25PM -0300, Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: > On 9/22/09, Gregory Shapiro wrote: > >> I suppose it doesn't matter to you that sendmail is actually > >> maintained by Greg Shapiro, VP, CTO of Sendmail, Inc. > > > > While I appreciate the vote of confidence, it doesn't, and it shouldn't. > > I'll continue to maintain sendmail in the base as long as it is welcome > > there. If the project wants it moved out, that is not up to me (though > > I hope it stays). > > > > I haven't spent a lot of time looking at DMA, but some requirements that > > pop to mind for it to be a replacement would be things like accepting > > local mail via SMTP (e.g., for MUAs which use SMTP submission) and > > supporting STARTTLS and SMTP AUTH for talking to the upstream MTA. > > Dear Mr. Gregory Shapiro: > > I'm writing this letter to let you know that I have nothing personal > against either your person, your professional work, your contributions > to the FreeBSD project, your personal and professional merits or > anything at all. > > I was prompt with an dubiously honest question and I replied with an > honest answer, as I know no other way, and yet still stand in the > belief that the use of names as means to declare any authority, be it > moral or otherwise, constitutes no truth nor does any good to reason. > Then you completely missed the point of my response. sendmail is being maintained the people that actual wrote the code. If dma replaces sendmail, will the authors of dma become FreeBSD committers and maintain dma in the same manner that sendmail has been maintained. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 21:34:52 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062E11065679; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:34:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3FF18FC1C; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:34:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost.apl.washington.edu [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8MLYpYv033724; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:34:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8MLYpWi033723; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:34:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:34:51 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Gregory Shapiro Message-ID: <20090922213451.GC84817@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20090922200449.GL19207@rugsucker.local> <19e9a5dc0909221329j5757c3f7kc23e94ea8f26a05@mail.gmail.com> <20090922204356.GM19207@rugsucker.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090922204356.GM19207@rugsucker.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Gonzalo Nemmi , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:34:52 -0000 On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 01:43:56PM -0700, Gregory Shapiro wrote: > > My apologies for the inconveniences or offenses I might unwittingly > > have caused you. > > Oh no, none necessary at all and I am sorry if my reply to Steve was > misinterpreted. I wanted to both thank Steve for the recognition and > also agree with you -- who I am doesn't enter into the picture, all that > matters is what is best for the project. The only other factor that > enters into the decision making is if sendmail is being actively and > properly maintained. Your last line was my point, which apparentily has been missed. sendmail is actively maintained by you (and Sendmail, Inc.). If sendmail is replaced by dma, will it receive the same level of care? I guess this is considered to be a dubious concern by some. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 21:46:49 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF22106566B; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:46:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EADB8FC17; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:46:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CAEE6D41B; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:46:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0A8DE8448F; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 23:46:48 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Nick Hibma References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <4AB7ED76.5010406@FreeBSD.org> <20090922082344.GA64877@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <37B47737-E4A4-4CF3-9DAA-B0F0A4CC8901@van-laarhoven.org> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 23:46:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: <37B47737-E4A4-4CF3-9DAA-B0F0A4CC8901@van-laarhoven.org> (Nick Hibma's message of "Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:06:42 +0200") Message-ID: <86d45i1wl3.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:46:49 -0000 Nick Hibma writes: > Our package system is a tremendous asset, and wholeheartedly agree > with Doug on this. So my vote is now a -1. Not that anyone cares. Having seen how it turned out, I'd like to vote -50,000,000 on this whole discussion... DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 21:59:38 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8AE21065679; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:59:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnemmi@gmail.com) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.155]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E858FC16; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:59:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 16so61255fgg.13 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:59:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=seBdZTAVPObNjgxSxSubSLkybwsSDndN5n73XdakVkI=; b=KlPR1zmfebe7R1nzmjsFQJIgI+7iNzq3e/sNBWaWsT44THFq5fSsDiH3nnWEGZ/bBU s9c5EpzQZJ+Xlz29VlLT3rlmVr3FTspR8iFIED6hWWId2gE+SgQ6l+6xjCEwYxZ6VCTo g2nP5A8RANUT6dVfu7mq3rV1p3kw7+c23o9zs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=kkMn9sNFDgcdMgxzLHfaN927Spb8AxZhnsP3sM1UuWbNqCRXsl6Be5kaQXpnpNQ+ag PNTJHM1ggZDnUxgAxidQEFqvPJhfb10gbqtYafeRyuh78vu2o1wtKijVfZisL3C81SHY oB0wdPxXqFiFheCQFrzXo1mxWWVhK8Uzvrg18= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.183.39 with SMTP id s39mr116390hbg.177.1253656776761; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:59:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090922212650.GA84817@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <19e9a5dc0909221053r4ada92bege718e37aa575e0de@mail.gmail.com> <4AB91DAA.5010000@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221411n1486cb80x220384b37daee921@mail.gmail.com> <20090922212650.GA84817@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:59:36 -0300 Message-ID: <19e9a5dc0909221459q5095f29qcd0c09886a7a4ee3@mail.gmail.com> From: Gonzalo Nemmi To: Steve Kargl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Sergey Vinogradov , Doug Barton , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 21:59:39 -0000 On 9/22/09, Steve Kargl wrote: > On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 06:11:37PM -0300, Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: >> On 9/22/09, Doug Barton wrote: >> > Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: >> > >> >> With all due respect, I already know that .. it's pretty clear in the >> >> different manuals, hanbooks and how-ro's ... and that's exactly why I >> >> never asked how can I remove sendmail and replace it with dma .. the >> >> question was more inclined in the way: why such a heavywheight (which >> >> is what a lot of users seem to be saying, and I agree with them) when >> >> we could do just as well with dma >> > >> > So do it already. :) A lot of people have talked about this, but no >> > one has put code where their mouth is. Create a POC and post it to >> > -arch, then we have something concrete to discuss. And please, don't >> > bother with the "But I don't want to do the work if it isn't going to >> > be accepted into the base" argument. There are way more than enough >> > people whinging about this topic that your work will have an >> > appreciative audience, which is all the reward we get around here. >> >> Dear Doug: >> >> Those words were just an explanation to Steve Kargl's misleading >> interpretation of my former e-mail. >> > > My interpretation was not misleading. If anything my comment > was informative because there was no indication in your post > that you knew the history and continued maintenance of sendmail > nor did you indicate that you knew how to replace sendmail via > the Handbook's description. Yet you assumed I didn't know any of them, took no care in finding out the answer to at least even one of your presumptions and decided that the best way to find out was to throw Shapiro's name on me and tell me to RTFM instead of coming up with a straight answer to a straight question?. So much for the Occam's razor principle ... Anyways .. this is way OT and I'm no longer willing to discuss it. Regards Gonzalo From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 22:05:35 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF0B1065670; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:05:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gnemmi@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f222.google.com (mail-fx0-f222.google.com [209.85.220.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C8B8FC0A; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:05:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm22 with SMTP id 22so162408fxm.36 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:05:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=GnXl3KdSYkV3H/dIhxGXLnMFS0g7STn32elskQs3Imc=; b=i1mDhGGH7ja2RebTm6QEBRePB2L9XORwvBhEyPOHaH5F/dPV5GYY0sh2K0FFUimSxi eEqLuZCPU6l/h+7b1HWB73ADPy3nNnyt6GzhTP9a1wBbpJVovFdFPD5ipbsK/wN2DUM3 q11Ii6+XauU/M+RAIT/Loe0XchqGi00jNs1gw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=mP6eUjh5ZFio7bOXuQ/Fg1g69iRRtIv4srJ4lr+EQ6GqJjDCU8qbDNo1g2Ckdtp3lL XHQKgSkQSHdSFTmC2HkRzwuUn6nHZwM4My76XNkGqxNNgg/E7JBKUjYEKKwMN8RnxS+c OV2nlcUI002vFUEZb1a91IKIRn3FLKjrpczqk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.134.221 with SMTP id a29mr140856hba.20.1253657133617; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:05:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090922213127.GB84817@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20090922200449.GL19207@rugsucker.local> <19e9a5dc0909221329j5757c3f7kc23e94ea8f26a05@mail.gmail.com> <20090922213127.GB84817@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:05:33 -0300 Message-ID: <19e9a5dc0909221505k3d55d070u741d86e03d2316a6@mail.gmail.com> From: Gonzalo Nemmi To: Steve Kargl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Gregory Shapiro , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:05:35 -0000 On 9/22/09, Steve Kargl wrote: > On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 05:29:25PM -0300, Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: >> On 9/22/09, Gregory Shapiro wrote: >> >> I suppose it doesn't matter to you that sendmail is actually >> >> maintained by Greg Shapiro, VP, CTO of Sendmail, Inc. >> > >> > While I appreciate the vote of confidence, it doesn't, and it shouldn't. >> > I'll continue to maintain sendmail in the base as long as it is welcome >> > there. If the project wants it moved out, that is not up to me (though >> > I hope it stays). >> > >> > I haven't spent a lot of time looking at DMA, but some requirements that >> > pop to mind for it to be a replacement would be things like accepting >> > local mail via SMTP (e.g., for MUAs which use SMTP submission) and >> > supporting STARTTLS and SMTP AUTH for talking to the upstream MTA. >> >> Dear Mr. Gregory Shapiro: >> >> I'm writing this letter to let you know that I have nothing personal >> against either your person, your professional work, your contributions >> to the FreeBSD project, your personal and professional merits or >> anything at all. >> >> I was prompt with an dubiously honest question and I replied with an >> honest answer, as I know no other way, and yet still stand in the >> belief that the use of names as means to declare any authority, be it >> moral or otherwise, constitutes no truth nor does any good to reason. >> > > Then you completely missed the point of my response. sendmail > is being maintained the people that actual wrote the code. If > dma replaces sendmail, will the authors of dma become FreeBSD > committers and maintain dma in the same manner that sendmail > has been maintained. Then you completely missed _my_ point which is the same point other posters have been making: so much whining for (tiny) tmux when we still have (huge) sendmail in base? to turn the discussion into yours (who's gonna maintain dma should we replace sendmail?). Regards Gonzalo From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 22:26:07 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D9C1065670; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:26:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178608FC13; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:26:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 547956D41B; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:26:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2D251844B4; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:26:05 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Sergey Vinogradov References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:26:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> (Sergey Vinogradov's message of "Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:54:35 +0400") Message-ID: <864oqu1urm.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.95 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Ed Schouten , current@FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:26:07 -0000 Sergey Vinogradov writes: > Despite the zsh(1) has appropriate license, it needs autotools and > iconv (both GPL AFAIK), so it's hard to include in the base system. > The things in the base system I always wondered about are sendmail > and bind9. These are pretty heavy, and definitely are not used in every > single installation. Maybe someday I'll see sendmail and bind9 in ports > instead of base system. And yes, I know about WITHOUT_BIND=3D and > WITHOUT_SENDMAIL=3D :) 1) Even in sh mode, zsh is not sufficiently POSIX-compliant to replace our /bin/sh (and I say this as the maintainer of the zsh port) 2) Sendmail is used at least twice a day + once a week + once a month on every single FreeBSD installation in the world except those where the admin has intentionally installed and configured another MTA. 3) Both BIND and Sendmail have strong historical ties to BSD, and a lot of users would be very surprised to find them missing from the next release. 4) The FreeBSD project has strong ties to and good working relationships with the people and organizations who write and maintain BIND and Sendmail, ensuring that they are well integrated into our codebase, that any concerns we should have about them are given serious consideration, that we always receive ample advance notification of any know problems, etc. 5) Both BIND and Sendmail are mature, robust, highly regarded, actively maintained pieces of software with strong developer and user communities. Unbound, DMA, or whatever it is you would replace them with can only dream of enjoying a fraction of the respect that BIND and Sendmail command in the industry. 6) This discussion comes up with depressing regularity. The arguments on both sides are always the same, as is the conclusion: you can have BIND and Sendmail when you pry them out of Beastie's cold, dead fingers. Now go write some code. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 22 22:50:30 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D10F106566C; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:50:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB4D8FC0C; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:50:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id E5A5F1A3D01; Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:50:29 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav Message-ID: <20090922225029.GP21946@elvis.mu.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <4AB7ED76.5010406@FreeBSD.org> <20090922082344.GA64877@mech-cluster241.men.bris.ac.uk> <37B47737-E4A4-4CF3-9DAA-B0F0A4CC8901@van-laarhoven.org> <86d45i1wl3.fsf@ds4.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86d45i1wl3.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Nick Hibma , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:50:30 -0000 * Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav [090922 14:47] wrote: > Nick Hibma writes: > > Our package system is a tremendous asset, and wholeheartedly agree > > with Doug on this. So my vote is now a -1. Not that anyone cares. > > Having seen how it turned out, I'd like to vote -50,000,000 on this > whole discussion... Surely we're not done until someone suggests replacing /bin/sh with bash, amirite? -- - Alfred Perlstein .- AMA, VMOA #5191, 03 vmax, 92 gs500, 85 ch250 .- FreeBSD committer From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 23 00:49:20 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B63B106566C; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:49:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gshapiro@gshapiro.net) Received: from zim.gshapiro.net (zim.gshapiro.net [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:36::224]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D89F68FC16; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:49:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rugsucker.local (natted.sendmail.com [63.211.143.38]) (authenticated bits=128) by zim.gshapiro.net (8.14.4.Alpha1/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8N0nGAM071126 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:49:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gshapiro@gshapiro.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gshapiro.net; s=gatsby.dkim; t=1253666959; bh=OUNm3VRfhZe93kThzyDp21O669soYW9TmQ6GiP08TJY=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:In-Reply-To; b=Yd9WyCRtZwLAY4RLtf/cICeq6aKd2kTpXLJr0vuPNw5jGYnckB6oZ8BuUmQVt/NK2 z3xcvbIUX+fGRhv0re91qdbMG4OUs7Pivcx6lyE/8TJY0VWJmiF7e8d+rGc2uEbv4u bAWVirmIVZmVwWKNfMiHy1x0mzby1DEpoCpKQQUk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=gatsby; d=gshapiro.net; c=nofws; q=dns; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:content-type:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; b=BsfudCehcSex49FK9UkFgaP/v2la4sUrHUvvGTOcamup7GwGR/pvh4Y1HcU6JIrsO uFD7VCn9Ut8EfhW3DawQULglABr7bqHr2c/yS+wDMQXW8k5rFeUC1kafszk3jGJXw7C dt9zrhyUJ+RUV8kGrXG4crvtAqfs+bKUE2aD92k= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:49:15 -0700 From: Gregory Shapiro To: Steve Kargl Message-ID: <20090923004915.GQ19207@rugsucker.local> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <4AB90448.9020706@FreeBSD.org> <19e9a5dc0909221014o14e88c96ubf32142b85d781d@mail.gmail.com> <20090922173517.GB63149@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20090922200449.GL19207@rugsucker.local> <19e9a5dc0909221329j5757c3f7kc23e94ea8f26a05@mail.gmail.com> <20090922204356.GM19207@rugsucker.local> <20090922213451.GC84817@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090922213451.GC84817@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: arch@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base (Was: Re: tmux(1) in base) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:49:20 -0000 > If sendmail is replaced by dma, will it receive the same level of > care? I guess this is considered to be a dubious concern by some. It is a valid concern, but not one I can comment on (i.e., I would not be able to maintain it). From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 23 08:56:31 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178701065672 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 08:56:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938FA8FC20 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 08:56:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8N8uEO5003816; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:56:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8N8uDYP003815; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:56:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:56:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200909230856.n8N8uDYP003815@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19e9a5dc0909221505k3d55d070u741d86e03d2316a6@mail.gmail.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-arch User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:56:29 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: BIND in the base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 08:56:31 -0000 Gonzalo Nemmi wrote: > Then you completely missed _my_ point which is the same point other > posters have been making: so much whining for (tiny) tmux when we > still have (huge) sendmail in base? to turn the discussion into yours > (who's gonna maintain dma should we replace sendmail?). You're saying tmux is "tiny" and sendmail is "huge" -- Have you actually looked at the sizes? tmux is 1 MB, while the sendmail source code are 2 MB. Sure, it's a difference, but not an order of magnitude. FWIW, dma cannot replace sendmail because it's still missing some important features, such as .forward. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "IRIX is about as stable as a one-legged drunk with hypothermia in a four-hundred mile per hour wind, balancing on a banana peel on a greased cookie sheet -- when someone throws him an elephant with bad breath and a worse temper." -- Ralf Hildebrandt From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 23 09:06:38 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17378106566B for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:06:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933E78FC17 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:06:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8N96L33004385; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:06:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8N96KZU004384; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:06:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:06:20 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200909230906.n8N96KZU004384@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, peter@wemm.org In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-arch User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:06:36 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: BIND in the base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:06:38 -0000 Peter Wemm wrote: > On the subject of host/dig/nslookup. We had an old 'host' and > 'nslookup' that were replaced with bind's heavyweight versions. > Perhaps those could be revived and refreshed? > > The functionality of 'host' that I care about is: > [...] The functionality of 'host' (and 'dig') that I care about is the fact that it ignores /etc/hosts and nsswitch.conf and always uses DNS. This feature has been invaluable for me for debugging DNS issues. BTW, it's a pity window(1) was removed from base. The removal breaks several scripts of mine, particularly ones that are specifically designed to run without any ports installed. Please let BIND stay. And sendmail, too. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd It's trivial to make fun of Microsoft products, but it takes a real man to make them work, and a God to make them do anything useful. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 23 09:20:21 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6F810656DB; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:20:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from boogie@lazybytes.org) Received: from mail.lazybytes.org (odin.rinet.ru [195.54.209.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BB28FC1E; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:20:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost.localdomain (broadband-77-37-224-248.nationalcablenetworks.ru [77.37.224.248]) by mail.lazybytes.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0A34314036E4; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:18:16 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:20:36 +0400 From: Sergey Vinogradov To: Dag-Erling =?UTF-8?B?U23DuHJncmF2?= Message-ID: <20090923132036.57767deb@lazybytes.org> In-Reply-To: <864oqu1urm.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <864oqu1urm.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.2 (GTK+ 2.16.5; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/3g8Ig.nzBHzXBPQlHNRscOV"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Cc: Ed Schouten , current@FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:20:21 -0000 --Sig_/3g8Ig.nzBHzXBPQlHNRscOV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =D0=92 Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:26:05 +0200 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=88=D0=B5=D1=82: > Sergey Vinogradov writes: > > Despite the zsh(1) has appropriate license, it needs autotools and > > iconv (both GPL AFAIK), so it's hard to include in the base system. > > The things in the base system I always wondered about are sendmail > > and bind9. These are pretty heavy, and definitely are not used in > > every single installation. Maybe someday I'll see sendmail and > > bind9 in ports instead of base system. And yes, I know about > > WITHOUT_BIND=3D and WITHOUT_SENDMAIL=3D :) >=20 > 1) Even in sh mode, zsh is not sufficiently POSIX-compliant to replace > our /bin/sh (and I say this as the maintainer of the zsh port) I think I've made my point unclear: I fully understand that, and I don't propose zsh(1) replacing sh(1). I just think it would be handy to have zsh(1) in the base system. Not replacing sh(1), but as one more piece of software. --=20 wbr, Boo --Sig_/3g8Ig.nzBHzXBPQlHNRscOV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq56GQACgkQCt8hfbw1Gpa9ugCfYuxRQEVgCGWpH/BQx77jTQjq hvgAn18uOHbBRjrCZgrxiB3qVeUwt8Zi =Blk9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/3g8Ig.nzBHzXBPQlHNRscOV-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 23 09:40:58 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E701065676 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:40:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from outW.internet-mail-service.net (outw.internet-mail-service.net [216.240.47.246]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD178FC15 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:40:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from idiom.com (mx0.idiom.com [216.240.32.160]) by out.internet-mail-service.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F9EADA67; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 02:27:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Client-Authorized: MaGic Cook1e X-Client-Authorized: MaGic Cook1e X-Client-Authorized: MaGic Cook1e Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (home.elischer.org [216.240.48.38]) by idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA01E2D6018; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 02:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4AB9E9F0.3020500@elischer.org> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 02:27:12 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Oliver Fromme References: <200909230906.n8N96KZU004384@lurza.secnetix.de> In-Reply-To: <200909230906.n8N96KZU004384@lurza.secnetix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BIND in the base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:40:58 -0000 Oliver Fromme wrote: > Peter Wemm wrote: > > On the subject of host/dig/nslookup. We had an old 'host' and > > 'nslookup' that were replaced with bind's heavyweight versions. > > Perhaps those could be revived and refreshed? > > > > The functionality of 'host' that I care about is: > > [...] > > The functionality of 'host' (and 'dig') that I care about > is the fact that it ignores /etc/hosts and nsswitch.conf > and always uses DNS. This feature has been invaluable > for me for debugging DNS issues. > > BTW, it's a pity window(1) was removed from base. > The removal breaks several scripts of mine, particularly > ones that are specifically designed to run without any > ports installed. Actually I had to go look at CVS (I couldn't work out how to get svn to tell me who removed it) to see who took it out and when. I don't recall any discussion of this, and while it may have been the right answer, I think it was poorly handled. It seems it was pretty much a single person's decision, and I object to that as it did go against POLA. It should have been discussed more at least. > > Please let BIND stay. And sendmail, too. > > Best regards > Oliver > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 23 09:48:00 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD0D4106568F; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:48:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from svein-listmail@stillbilde.net) Received: from mail.stillbilde.net (d80.iso100.no [81.175.61.195]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A56E8FC30; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:48:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.4.9] (unknown [192.168.4.9]) (Authenticated sender: svein) by mail.stillbilde.net (Familien Skogens mail) with ESMTPSA id 76A6056; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:31:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4AB9EAE7.6090108@stillbilde.net> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:31:19 +0200 From: "Svein Skogen (listmail account)" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sergey Vinogradov References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <864oqu1urm.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20090923132036.57767deb@lazybytes.org> In-Reply-To: <20090923132036.57767deb@lazybytes.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= , current@FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.org, Ed Schouten Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:48:00 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sergey Vinogradov wrote: > Ð’ Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:26:05 +0200 > Dag-Erling Smørgrav пишет: > >> Sergey Vinogradov writes: >>> Despite the zsh(1) has appropriate license, it needs autotools and >>> iconv (both GPL AFAIK), so it's hard to include in the base system. >>> The things in the base system I always wondered about are sendmail >>> and bind9. These are pretty heavy, and definitely are not used in >>> every single installation. Maybe someday I'll see sendmail and >>> bind9 in ports instead of base system. And yes, I know about >>> WITHOUT_BIND= and WITHOUT_SENDMAIL= :) >> 1) Even in sh mode, zsh is not sufficiently POSIX-compliant to replace >> our /bin/sh (and I say this as the maintainer of the zsh port) > I think I've made my point unclear: I fully understand that, and I > don't propose zsh(1) replacing sh(1). I just think it would be handy to > have zsh(1) in the base system. Not replacing sh(1), but as one > more piece of software. Wouldn't that bring back (among others) perl into the base? I seem to remember there was some effort spent on removing that a while ago... //Svein - -- - --------+-------------------+------------------------------- /"\ |Svein Skogen | svein@d80.iso100.no \ / |Solberg Østli 9 | PGP Key: 0xE5E76831 X |2020 Skedsmokorset | svein@jernhuset.no / \ |Norway | PGP Key: 0xCE96CE13 | | svein@stillbilde.net ascii | | PGP Key: 0x58CD33B6 ribbon |System Admin | svein-listmail@stillbilde.net Campaign|stillbilde.net | PGP Key: 0x22D494A4 +-------------------+------------------------------- |msn messenger: | Mobile Phone: +47 907 03 575 |svein@jernhuset.no | RIPE handle: SS16503-RIPE - --------+-------------------+------------------------------- If you really are in a hurry, mail me at svein-mobile@stillbilde.net This mailbox goes directly to my cellphone and is checked even when I'm not in front of my computer. - ------------------------------------------------------------ Picture Gallery: https://gallery.stillbilde.net/v/svein/ - ------------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkq56uYACgkQODUnwSLUlKTmowCgna2UmnZCCT/9xYFYCase10Ua 3qcAnjI5MnTA3aL35OTc9uxCOcPRaUFX =da5r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 23 09:50:09 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9BAB1065695; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:50:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from boogie@lazybytes.org) Received: from mail.lazybytes.org (odin.rinet.ru [195.54.209.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 943B08FC20; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:50:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost.localdomain (broadband-77-37-224-248.nationalcablenetworks.ru [77.37.224.248]) by mail.lazybytes.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DB4EE14036E4; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:48:05 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:50:29 +0400 From: Sergey Vinogradov To: "Svein Skogen (listmail account)" Message-ID: <20090923135029.69a016f8@lazybytes.org> In-Reply-To: <4AB9EAE7.6090108@stillbilde.net> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <864oqu1urm.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20090923132036.57767deb@lazybytes.org> <4AB9EAE7.6090108@stillbilde.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.2 (GTK+ 2.16.5; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Cc: Dag-Erling =?UTF-8?B?U23DuHJncmF2?= , current@FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.org, Ed Schouten Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:50:09 -0000 LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkVEIE1FU1NBR0UtLS0tLQ0KSGFzaDogU0hBMQ0KDQrQkiBXZWQs IDIzIFNlcCAyMDA5IDExOjMxOjE5ICswMjAwDQoiU3ZlaW4gU2tvZ2VuIChsaXN0bWFpbCBhY2Nv dW50KSIgPHN2ZWluLWxpc3RtYWlsQHN0aWxsYmlsZGUubmV0PiDQv9C40YjQtdGCOg0KDQo+IC0t LS0tQkVHSU4gUEdQIFNJR05FRCBNRVNTQUdFLS0tLS0NCj4gSGFzaDogU0hBMQ0KPiANCj4gU2Vy Z2V5IFZpbm9ncmFkb3Ygd3JvdGU6DQo+ID4g0JIgV2VkLCAyMyBTZXAgMjAwOSAwMDoyNjowNSAr MDIwMA0KPiA+IERhZy1FcmxpbmcgU23DuHJncmF2IDxkZXNAZGVzLm5vPiDQv9C40YjQtdGCOg0K PiA+IA0KPiA+PiBTZXJnZXkgVmlub2dyYWRvdiA8Ym9vZ2llQGxhenlieXRlcy5vcmc+IHdyaXRl czoNCj4gPj4+IERlc3BpdGUgdGhlIHpzaCgxKSBoYXMgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgbGljZW5zZSwgaXQg bmVlZHMgYXV0b3Rvb2xzIGFuZA0KPiA+Pj4gaWNvbnYgKGJvdGggR1BMIEFGQUlLKSwgc28gaXQn cyBoYXJkIHRvIGluY2x1ZGUgaW4gdGhlIGJhc2UNCj4gPj4+IHN5c3RlbS4gVGhlIHRoaW5ncyBp biB0aGUgYmFzZSBzeXN0ZW0gSSBhbHdheXMgd29uZGVyZWQgYWJvdXQgYXJlDQo+ID4+PiBzZW5k bWFpbCBhbmQgYmluZDkuIFRoZXNlIGFyZSBwcmV0dHkgaGVhdnksIGFuZCBkZWZpbml0ZWx5IGFy ZQ0KPiA+Pj4gbm90IHVzZWQgaW4gZXZlcnkgc2luZ2xlIGluc3RhbGxhdGlvbi4gTWF5YmUgc29t ZWRheSBJJ2xsIHNlZQ0KPiA+Pj4gc2VuZG1haWwgYW5kIGJpbmQ5IGluIHBvcnRzIGluc3RlYWQg b2YgYmFzZSBzeXN0ZW0uIEFuZCB5ZXMsIEkNCj4gPj4+IGtub3cgYWJvdXQgV0lUSE9VVF9CSU5E PSBhbmQgV0lUSE9VVF9TRU5ETUFJTD0gOikNCj4gPj4gMSkgRXZlbiBpbiBzaCBtb2RlLCB6c2gg aXMgbm90IHN1ZmZpY2llbnRseSBQT1NJWC1jb21wbGlhbnQgdG8NCj4gPj4gcmVwbGFjZSBvdXIg L2Jpbi9zaCAoYW5kIEkgc2F5IHRoaXMgYXMgdGhlIG1haW50YWluZXIgb2YgdGhlIHpzaA0KPiA+ PiBwb3J0KQ0KPiA+IEkgdGhpbmsgSSd2ZSBtYWRlIG15IHBvaW50IHVuY2xlYXI6IEkgZnVsbHkg dW5kZXJzdGFuZCB0aGF0LCBhbmQgSQ0KPiA+IGRvbid0IHByb3Bvc2UgenNoKDEpIHJlcGxhY2lu ZyBzaCgxKS4gSSBqdXN0IHRoaW5rIGl0IHdvdWxkIGJlDQo+ID4gaGFuZHkgdG8gaGF2ZSB6c2go MSkgaW4gdGhlIGJhc2Ugc3lzdGVtLiBOb3QgcmVwbGFjaW5nIHNoKDEpLCBidXQNCj4gPiBhcyBv bmUgbW9yZSBwaWVjZSBvZiBzb2Z0d2FyZS4NCj4gDQo+IFdvdWxkbid0IHRoYXQgYnJpbmcgYmFj ayAoYW1vbmcgb3RoZXJzKSBwZXJsIGludG8gdGhlIGJhc2U/IEkgc2VlbSB0bw0KPiByZW1lbWJl ciB0aGVyZSB3YXMgc29tZSBlZmZvcnQgc3BlbnQgb24gcmVtb3ZpbmcgdGhhdCBhIHdoaWxlIGFn by4uLg0KPiANCj4gLy9TdmVpbg0KPiANCldlbGwsIHpzaCgxKSBkb2Vzbid0IGhhdmUgcGVybCBh cyBydW4sIG9yIGJ1aWxkIGRlcGVuZGVuY3kgZGlyZWN0bHkuDQpIb3dldmVyLCBhdXRvY29uZiwg d2hpY2ggaXMgaW52b2x2ZWQgaW4genNoKDEpIGJ1aWxkIHByb2Nlc3MgZG9lcw0KZGVwZW5kIG9u IHBlcmwuDQoNCi0gLS0gDQp3YnIsDQpCb28NCi0tLS0tQkVHSU4gUEdQIFNJR05BVFVSRS0tLS0t DQpWZXJzaW9uOiBHbnVQRyB2MS40LjEwIChHTlUvTGludXgpDQoNCmlFWUVBUkVDQUFZRkFrcTU3 MlVBQ2drUUN0OGhmYncxR3BZdi9BQ2RIQzRmdmpEUGdOaExYc0I2VUFENlJQRmsNCllZUUFuMlMv anN4U0g2YWl0THdtTnZxdWJlNm9JUzVQDQo9NXdaaA0KLS0tLS1FTkQgUEdQIFNJR05BVFVSRS0t LS0tDQo= From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 23 17:01:44 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA341065694 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:01:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@80386.nl) Received: from palm.hoeg.nl (mx0.hoeg.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:613:100::211]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04EF78FC13 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:01:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.0.0.12] (d83-180-9-80.cust.tele2.nl [83.180.9.80]) (Authenticated sender: ed) by palm.hoeg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D0D981CDB5; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:01:42 +0200 (CEST) References: <200909230906.n8N96KZU004384@lurza.secnetix.de> <4AB9E9F0.3020500@elischer.org> Message-Id: <51C55D74-F18B-4356-811E-13B4AA938D48@80386.nl> From: Ed Schouten To: Julian Elischer In-Reply-To: <4AB9E9F0.3020500@elischer.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPod Mail (7C145) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPod Mail 7C145) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:02:30 +0200 Cc: Oliver Fromme , "freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: BIND in the base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:01:44 -0000 It wasn't a single person decision. Trhodes wanted to maintain it. After some discussion we agreed having it in ports would make it easier for tom to maintain. -- Ed Schouten (from iPod) WWW: http://80386.nl/ On 23 sep 2009, at 11:27, Julian Elischer wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: >> Peter Wemm wrote: >> > On the subject of host/dig/nslookup. We had an old 'host' and >> > 'nslookup' that were replaced with bind's heavyweight versions. >> > Perhaps those could be revived and refreshed? >> > > The functionality of 'host' that I care about is: >> > [...] >> The functionality of 'host' (and 'dig') that I care about >> is the fact that it ignores /etc/hosts and nsswitch.conf >> and always uses DNS. This feature has been invaluable >> for me for debugging DNS issues. >> BTW, it's a pity window(1) was removed from base. >> The removal breaks several scripts of mine, particularly >> ones that are specifically designed to run without any >> ports installed. > > Actually I had to go look at CVS (I couldn't work out how to get > svn to tell me who removed it) to see who took it out and when. > > I don't recall any discussion of this, and while it may have been > the right answer, I think it was poorly handled. > > It seems it was pretty much a single person's decision, > and I object to that as it did go against POLA. > It should have been discussed more at least. > >> Please let BIND stay. And sendmail, too. >> Best regards >> Oliver > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch- > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 23 17:22:42 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4890106568D for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:22:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from outW.internet-mail-service.net (outw.internet-mail-service.net [216.240.47.246]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCBEB8FC19 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:22:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from idiom.com (mx0.idiom.com [216.240.32.160]) by out.internet-mail-service.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE1DCB98A2; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:22:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Client-Authorized: MaGic Cook1e X-Client-Authorized: MaGic Cook1e X-Client-Authorized: MaGic Cook1e Received: from julian-mac.elischer.org (home.elischer.org [216.240.48.38]) by idiom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 409DF2D601D; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4ABA5965.4090802@elischer.org> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:22:45 -0700 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ed Schouten References: <200909230906.n8N96KZU004384@lurza.secnetix.de> <4AB9E9F0.3020500@elischer.org> <51C55D74-F18B-4356-811E-13B4AA938D48@80386.nl> In-Reply-To: <51C55D74-F18B-4356-811E-13B4AA938D48@80386.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Oliver Fromme , "freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: BIND in the base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:22:42 -0000 Ed Schouten wrote: > It wasn't a single person decision. Trhodes wanted to maintain it. After > some discussion we agreed having it in ports would make it easier for > tom to maintain. > ok so it was 2 people. he maintains it and we all lose it.. odd. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 23 17:38:02 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 970C1106568F for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:38:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@hoeg.nl) Received: from palm.hoeg.nl (mx0.hoeg.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:613:100::211]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F51C8FC1D for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:38:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by palm.hoeg.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9D3C81CD7D; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:38:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:38:01 +0200 From: Ed Schouten To: Julian Elischer Message-ID: <20090923173801.GI95398@hoeg.nl> References: <200909230906.n8N96KZU004384@lurza.secnetix.de> <4AB9E9F0.3020500@elischer.org> <51C55D74-F18B-4356-811E-13B4AA938D48@80386.nl> <4ABA5965.4090802@elischer.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TWU5dZlpCh7alCLz" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4ABA5965.4090802@elischer.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: Oliver Fromme , "freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: BIND in the base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:38:02 -0000 --TWU5dZlpCh7alCLz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Julian Elischer wrote: > ok so it was 2 people. >=20 > he maintains it and we all lose it.. odd. I still miss pcvt(4). --=20 Ed Schouten WWW: http://80386.nl/ --TWU5dZlpCh7alCLz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkq6XPkACgkQ52SDGA2eCwWcvwCdEbT8bY4JVo5cK6y6vAPwkU0w YCQAn3W7RrRqHGiM0gBqWCgGjt2EheO3 =OVve -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TWU5dZlpCh7alCLz-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 23 18:35:47 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CF0106568F for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:35:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rink@rink.nu) Received: from mx1.rink.nu (gloom.rink.nu [213.34.49.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97CE8FC18 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:35:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.rink.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64EB46D423; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:18:15 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rink.nu Received: from mx1.rink.nu ([213.34.49.2]) by localhost (gloom.rink.nu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oNoIlQyZadvZ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:18:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx1.rink.nu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B5C8B6D41E; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:18:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:18:12 +0200 From: Rink Springer To: Ed Schouten Message-ID: <20090923181812.GA14098@rink.nu> References: <200909230906.n8N96KZU004384@lurza.secnetix.de> <4AB9E9F0.3020500@elischer.org> <51C55D74-F18B-4356-811E-13B4AA938D48@80386.nl> <4ABA5965.4090802@elischer.org> <20090923173801.GI95398@hoeg.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090923173801.GI95398@hoeg.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: Oliver Fromme , Julian Elischer , "freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: BIND in the base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 18:35:47 -0000 On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 07:38:01PM +0200, Ed Schouten wrote: > I still miss pcvt(4). Not a day passes without me missing Alpha.. [*] [*] This is not serious, but it should illustrate the point: no one stepped up, and appearantly no one bothered to try window(1) but suddenly it's terrible that it was nuked months ago... Bottomline: can we PLEASE drop this thread and get to coding? Or in terms people likely will understand more, 'kill -SIGSTOP $thread'. Regards, -- Rink P.W. Springer - http://rink.nu "Beauty often seduces us on the road to truth." - Dr. Wilson From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 23 20:59:28 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3399810656C2 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:59:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peterjeremy@acm.org) Received: from fallbackmx09.syd.optusnet.com.au (fallbackmx09.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.242]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02FDF8FC20 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:59:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail11.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail11.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.192]) by fallbackmx09.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id n8NIwN7W015875 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:58:23 +1000 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c122-106-250-30.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au [122.106.250.30]) by mail11.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id n8NIwHln024319 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:58:19 +1000 X-Bogosity: Ham, spamicity=0.000000 Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8NIwGgf032540; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:58:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8NIwGT6032539; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:58:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:58:16 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: "Svein Skogen (listmail account)" Message-ID: <20090923185816.GB26192@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <20090921112657.GW95398@hoeg.nl> <20090922135435.36a3d40e@lazybytes.org> <864oqu1urm.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20090923132036.57767deb@lazybytes.org> <4AB9EAE7.6090108@stillbilde.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wzJLGUyc3ArbnUjN" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4AB9EAE7.6090108@stillbilde.net> X-PGP-Key: http://members.optusnet.com.au/peterjeremy/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Sergey Vinogradov , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tmux(1) in base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:59:28 -0000 --wzJLGUyc3ArbnUjN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm particurly impressed at the striped red and blue paint that has been liberally applied to the shed. On 2009-Sep-23 11:31:19 +0200, "Svein Skogen (listmail account)" wrote: >Sergey Vinogradov wrote: >> don't propose zsh(1) replacing sh(1). I just think it would be handy to >> have zsh(1) in the base system. Not replacing sh(1), but as one >> more piece of software. I personally use zsh as my interactive shell but I don't think it belongs in the base system. IMHO, the base system only needs a single, POSIX-compliant shell - so it is already over-endowed. >Wouldn't that bring back (among others) perl into the base? I seem to >remember there was some effort spent on removing that a while ago... There were two main reasons for removing perl: 1) Perl was undergoing rapid development at a rate that was not compatible with the FreeBSD release schedule - so the base version of perl was out-of-date. 2) The FreeBSD base system must be able to be cross-built (this is needed to support upgrading even within the same architecture). Perl is not intended to be cross-built and the effort involved in shoe-horning it into the buildworld process was becoming too onerous - especially since it needed to be reworked for each new perl release. As for tmux(1) vs screen(1) vs window(1): I don't see any compelling reason for any of these to belong in the base system. (And, if you rely solely on the pkg-descr for those tools, there doesn't appear to be any need for those tools at all unless you are using a real glass TTY on a headless system. Talking to people who use them, it appears that the only useful feature in screen/tmux isn't mentioned in the pkg-descr). --=20 Peter Jeremy --wzJLGUyc3ArbnUjN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.13 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkq6b8gACgkQ/opHv/APuIdTFACfcLXWLkeBnwUMd0mC7TCWIUb1 nvsAn39vpjwAncSb3jAbqdmUQvr6GtLj =rAL1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wzJLGUyc3ArbnUjN-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 24 02:27:18 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 903D5106566B; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:27:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from gloomweaver.pittgoth.com (gloomweaver.pittgoth.com [205.134.165.107]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56ADD8FC13; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:27:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost.fbsdsecure.org (net-ix.gw.ai.net [205.134.160.6]) (authenticated bits=0) by gloomweaver.pittgoth.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8O2FIPT097931 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:15:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:14:08 -0400 From: Tom Rhodes To: Rink Springer Message-Id: <20090923221408.5c9af2c1.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20090923181812.GA14098@rink.nu> References: <200909230906.n8N96KZU004384@lurza.secnetix.de> <4AB9E9F0.3020500@elischer.org> <51C55D74-F18B-4356-811E-13B4AA938D48@80386.nl> <4ABA5965.4090802@elischer.org> <20090923173801.GI95398@hoeg.nl> <20090923181812.GA14098@rink.nu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ed@80386.nl, olli@lurza.secnetix.de, julian@elischer.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:27:18 -0000 On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:18:12 +0200 Rink Springer wrote: > On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 07:38:01PM +0200, Ed Schouten wrote: > > I still miss pcvt(4). > > Not a day passes without me missing Alpha.. [*] > > [*] This is not serious, but it should illustrate the point: no one > stepped up, and appearantly no one bothered to try window(1) but > suddenly it's terrible that it was nuked months ago... > > Bottomline: can we PLEASE drop this thread and get to coding? Or in > terms people likely will understand more, 'kill -SIGSTOP $thread'. IIRC, there was a thread on window(1). I'd need to look in my archives to find it, but what I do recall is that only one person stood up and complained AFTER I had removed it. People can put it back if they'd like, and I won't care. :) -- Tom Rhodes From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 24 07:14:19 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE4951065672; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 07:14:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ed@hoeg.nl) Received: from palm.hoeg.nl (mx0.hoeg.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:613:100::211]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBA88FC0A; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 07:14:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by palm.hoeg.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 09F461CD7D; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:14:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:14:17 +0200 From: Ed Schouten To: Tom Rhodes Message-ID: <20090924071417.GL95398@hoeg.nl> References: <200909230906.n8N96KZU004384@lurza.secnetix.de> <4AB9E9F0.3020500@elischer.org> <51C55D74-F18B-4356-811E-13B4AA938D48@80386.nl> <4ABA5965.4090802@elischer.org> <20090923173801.GI95398@hoeg.nl> <20090923181812.GA14098@rink.nu> <20090923221408.5c9af2c1.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5KObZtj3Gjpm0OUY" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090923221408.5c9af2c1.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: Rink Springer , olli@lurza.secnetix.de, julian@elischer.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BIND in the base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 07:14:19 -0000 --5KObZtj3Gjpm0OUY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Tom Rhodes wrote: > People can put it back if they'd like, and I won't care. :) On the condition that does get proper maintenance, unlike previously. --=20 Ed Schouten WWW: http://80386.nl/ --5KObZtj3Gjpm0OUY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkq7HEkACgkQ52SDGA2eCwXhvgCdGvtidEUI7xj1BVzbS3v4e2Sm A8QAn07zX1Hm9PRDUikMjRPSDXmxUq/K =Yof8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5KObZtj3Gjpm0OUY-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 24 07:49:57 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4FF71065676 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 07:49:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from gloomweaver.pittgoth.com (gloomweaver.pittgoth.com [205.134.165.107]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F6FA8FC08 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 07:49:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost.fbsdsecure.org (net-ix.gw.ai.net [205.134.160.6]) (authenticated bits=0) by gloomweaver.pittgoth.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n8O7ouZh000523 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:50:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:49:45 -0400 From: Tom Rhodes To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Message-Id: <20090924034945.69ad9989.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20090924071417.GL95398@hoeg.nl> References: <200909230906.n8N96KZU004384@lurza.secnetix.de> <4AB9E9F0.3020500@elischer.org> <51C55D74-F18B-4356-811E-13B4AA938D48@80386.nl> <4ABA5965.4090802@elischer.org> <20090923173801.GI95398@hoeg.nl> <20090923181812.GA14098@rink.nu> <20090923221408.5c9af2c1.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> <20090924071417.GL95398@hoeg.nl> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd8.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: BIND in the base X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 07:49:57 -0000 On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:14:17 +0200 Ed Schouten wrote: > * Tom Rhodes wrote: > > People can put it back if they'd like, and I won't care. :) > > On the condition that does get proper maintenance, unlike previously. Actually, that does sound much better, cheers, -- Tom Rhodes