From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 26 16:10:02 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20992FBC for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 16:10:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mb49.e2ma.net (mb49.e2ma.net [66.179.68.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2963B198A for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 16:10:01 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; s=e2ma; d=e2ma.net; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject:From:To:Date:Message-ID:List-Unsubscribe; i=@mb49.e2ma.net; bh=G+0bYJ5cqyFOmslIehhXR3A9wLU=; b=Pxhn4mIAgf/udfJfZt3dKYEILRiL2wyQP/uoLdMraaA0qsWfPCt4phaKIBJ8yOROCGvZCpIx0fGG GaG6R6oNZfyTql/Q0VK1O1IOleE+RUNcQMtG3+/YRI+HiRX9Ew9sM/eftsHadl6o3+zWH18IrNyi 1LT6KHaOJRjWRegWEzc= Received: by mb49.e2ma.net id h1o8ti18e74b for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 09:36:58 -0600 (envelope-from <6940851.1355955@e2ma.net>) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Collect shoes to raise funds for your organization From: "Gretchen Parker" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 15:36:58 -0000 Precedence: bulk Message-ID: X-Test-Mailing: no Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.17 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 16:10:02 -0000 To view this email online, paste this link into your browser: http://e2.ma/message/pv1ee/lcwanz ___________________________________ Funds2Orgs (http://e2.ma/click/pv1ee/lcwanz/18fkab) is a social enterprise = that offers a proven and effective fundraising strategy. We have helped non= profit organizations, churches, schools, and civic groups across the countr= y meet their fundraising goals and exceed expectations. =20 Through our shoe drive fundraisers, your organization will be able to engag= e the community, support micro-enterprises in developing countries, and mee= t your organizations goals. =20 It is easy to get started, simply click through to our website (http://e2.m= a/click/pv1ee/lcwanz/h1gkab) and sign-up. We'll send you materials to help = you collect shoes - from marketing to collection bags - and when you meet y= our goals, contact us and we'll come pick-up the shoes! Then all you have t= o do is get ready for your check! =20 If you need any additional information about Funds2Orgs or would like me to= connect you with a Funds2Orgs Fundraising Coach, please reply to this emai= l. YOU MATTER! Gretchen Parker Special Projects // ___________________________________ Share This:=20 http://e2.ma/share/outbound/e/pv1ee/lcwanz [Share via Email] This email was sent to freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org. To ensure that you continue receiving our emails, please add us to your address book or safe list. manage your preferences (https://app.e2ma.net/app2/audience/signup/1357359/= 1355955.6940851/1533518003/?v=3Da) opt out using TrueRemove(r) (http://e2.ma/optout/pv1ee/lcwanz?r=3DaHR0cHM6L= y9hcHAuZTJtYS5uZXQvYXBwMi9hdWRpZW5jZS9vcHRfb3V0LzEzNTczNTkvMTM1NTk1NS8xNTMz= NTE4MDAzLz92PWE=3D) Got this as a forward? Sign up to receive our future emails. (https://app.e= 2ma.net/app2/audience/signup/1357359/1355955.6940851/1533518003/?v=3Da) email powered by Emma(R) http://www.myemma.com/ 2401 Main St | Columbia, SC 29201 US From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 11 15:19:39 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B296480 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 15:19:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mb49.e2ma.net (mb49.e2ma.net [66.179.68.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20EDC207 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 15:19:38 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; s=e2ma; d=e2ma.net; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject:From:To:Date:Message-ID:List-Unsubscribe; i=@mb49.e2ma.net; bh=Wf59zjG2rItRoV1Bz3OTFu12Beo=; b=mfbfqmRJtwgWWNNJGsAV67O8+3SlREmwQeEGIZ0Mv/9bqfDJdCVr1ApZ+JewGwCrXu0Iak1bihAu Q+a7qj1CfwYheMkwiy8X6YSZoUX1NuCROYwGR4At3/PfETK/bac60ySO9wamOrI2Tt8Led3AOxJz aMqWcNwWG1gI1nIwmUE= Received: by mb49.e2ma.net id h3skok18e74i for ; Tue, 11 Mar 2014 10:19:36 -0500 (envelope-from <7048371.1355955@e2ma.net>) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: United Way invites you to Major Gifts Ramp-Up From: "Cliff Smith" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 15:19:36 -0000 Precedence: bulk Message-ID: X-Test-Mailing: no Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.17 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 15:19:39 -0000 To view this email online, paste this link into your browser: http://t.e2ma.net/message/duche/lcwanz ___________________________________ ___________________________________ Share This:=20 http://t.e2ma.net/share/outbound/e/duche/lcwanz [Share via Email] This email was sent to freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org. To ensure that you continue receiving our emails, please add us to your address book or safe list. manage your preferences (https://app.e2ma.net/app2/audience/signup/1357359/= 1355955.7048371/1533518003/?v=3Da) opt out using TrueRemove(r) (http://t.e2ma.net/optout/duche/lcwanz?r=3DaHR0= cHM6Ly9hcHAuZTJtYS5uZXQvYXBwMi9hdWRpZW5jZS9vcHRfb3V0LzEzNTczNTkvMTM1NTk1NS8= xNTMzNTE4MDAzLz92PWE=3D) Got this as a forward? Sign up to receive our future emails. (https://app.e= 2ma.net/app2/audience/signup/1357359/1355955.7048371/1533518003/?v=3Da) email powered by Emma(R) http://www.myemma.com/ 2401 Main St | Columbia, SC 29201 US From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 12 14:33:24 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8127BB8E for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 14:33:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail185.e2ma.net (mail185.e2ma.net [66.179.147.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43ADC292 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 14:33:24 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; s=e2ma; d=e2ma.net; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject:From:To:Date:Message-ID:List-Unsubscribe; i=@mail185.e2ma.net; bh=Pc3qEEIWZBlxXm5sreW2QgzwVvs=; b=b5Pi7z8BFjlULkAgCi8lA5THb+E9K2AkceBNZnXSyE+RZc53g8UWk4nugjUDwjMde12unl0oGrFr BuDwpgNSeCLWaDVtddp8NI/n1kZ8W0TFwcKNafRFiuQrtk1tioT7C8AmSlYRT+e4rio4GmbbiiqJ YdthRXSVfCt6aeEOyaE= Received: by mail185.e2ma.net id h41o3818e743 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 09:33:17 -0500 (envelope-from <6358259.1714419@e2ma.net>) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Funds2Orgs is your fundraising solution From: "Gretchen Parker" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 14:33:17 -0000 Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <140ab.lck2d.hhdlyn@e2ma.net> X-Test-Mailing: no Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.17 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 14:33:24 -0000 To view this email online, paste this link into your browser: http://t.e2ma.net/message/lck2d/hhdlyn ___________________________________ Funds2Orgs (http://t.e2ma.net/click/lck2d/hhdlyn/xd5c9) is a social enterpr= ise that offers a proven and effective fundraising strategies for nonprofit= organizations, churches, schools, and civic groups. We=E2=80=99ve helped h= undreds of organizations across the country meet their fundraising goals. =20 Through our shoe drive fundraisers, your organization will be able to engag= e the community, support micro-enterprises in developing countries, and mee= t your goals. =20 It is easy to get started, simply click through to our website (http://t.e2= ma.net/click/lck2d/hhdlyn/d65c9) and sign-up. We'll send you all the materi= als to get you started with your shoe drive, from marketing to collection b= ags. When your drive is complete, contact us and we'll come pick-up the bag= s of gently, worn used shoes! Then all you have to do is get ready for your= check! =20 If you need any additional information about Funds2Orgs or would like me to= connect you with a Funds2Orgs Fundraising Coach, please reply to this emai= l. YOU MATTER! Gretchen Parker Special Projects ___________________________________ Share This:=20 http://t.e2ma.net/share/outbound/e/lck2d/hhdlyn [Share via Email] This email was sent to freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org. To ensure that you continue receiving our emails, please add us to your address book or safe list. manage your preferences (https://app.e2ma.net/app2/audience/signup/1719350/= 1714419.6358259/826888435/?v=3Da) opt out using TrueRemove(r) (http://t.e2ma.net/optout/lck2d/hhdlyn?r=3DaHR0= cHM6Ly9hcHAuZTJtYS5uZXQvYXBwMi9hdWRpZW5jZS9vcHRfb3V0LzE3MTkzNTAvMTcxNDQxOS8= 4MjY4ODg0MzUvP3Y9YQ=3D=3D) Got this as a forward? Sign up to receive our future emails. (https://app.e= 2ma.net/app2/audience/signup/1719350/1714419.6358259/826888435/?v=3Da) email powered by Emma(R) http://www.myemma.com/ 711 Main St. | Lexington, SC 29072 US From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 14 09:41:43 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 280E5C20 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:41:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail273.tarevqua.com (mail273.tarevqua.com [82.192.71.173]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A7FE5F for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:41:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from cathey-corp.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail273.tarevqua.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 593FD1C0E05 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 10:41:36 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-campaign_id: 60M3YWNV_26226_f7872a431b234bf68bf082080d47f674 Precedence: bulk From: "kommerziellen Service" Subject: Neue Sommer-Katalog 2014 Message-ID: To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 10:41:36 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.17 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Reply-To: kommerziellen Service List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 09:41:43 -0000 If you can not read this email, follow this linkn (http://front.cathey-corp.com/php/emailing/view_mail.php?CODE=60M3YWNV_26226&HASH=f7872a431b234bf68bf082080d47f674) Discover the Slim fit polo shirts new collection - WebMenshirt webmenshirts : exclusive elegance (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_26&l=http%3A%2F%2Fid46.r.cathey-corp.com%2F) Fianet 9,9/10 (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_9&l=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fia-net.com%2Fannuaire%2F8120%2Fchemiseweb.html) Met us on Facebook (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_15&l=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fchemiseweb%3Fref%3Dmf) 29 945 Facebook fans (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_15&l=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fchemiseweb%3Fref%3Dmf) JOIN US FACEBOOK AND VISIT ALL OUR NEWS Already 29.945 fans Slim fit polo shirts new collection DISCOVER THE NEW COLLECTION SLIM FIT POLO SHIRTS SEE ALL THE COLLECTION (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_26&l=http%3A%2F%2Fid46.r.cathey-corp.com%2F) Our new line of polo shirts is completely redesigned : new slim fit, new models with shirt collar and cuffs, a new range of colors, new grid sizes from S to 3XL size. Polo Swing Polo SWING Elbow polo shirt in cotton jersey. Available in 13 variations of colors and fabric matchings. (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_18&l=http%3A%2F%2Fid46.r.cathey-corp.com%2Fen%2Fs%2F544%2Flong-sleeved-polos-elbow) Polo Groove Polo GROOVE Small button-down collar polo shirt. Available in 7 variations of colors and fabric matchings. (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_16&l=http%3A%2F%2Fid46.r.cathey-corp.com%2Fen%2Fs%2F747%2Flong-sleeved-polos-button-down-collar) Polo Jazz Polo JAZZ Two-tone polo shirt in cotton jersey. Available in 6 variations of colors and fabric matchings. (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_17&l=http%3A%2F%2Fid46.r.cathey-corp.com%2Fen%2Fs%2F748%2Flong-sleeved-polos-two-tone) And for notaligics of sales Find a wide selection of end series items with discount Good deals on shirts, sweaters and polos (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_20&l=http%3A%2F%2Fid46.r.cathey-corp.com%2FBonnesAffaires.php) OUR GUARANTIES satisfied or reimbursed (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_19&l=http%3A%2F%2Fid46.r.cathey-corp.com%2FFAQengagements.php) quality manufacturing (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_24&l=http%3A%2F%2Fid46.r.cathey-corp.com%2FFAQarticles.php) secure payment (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_23&l=http%3A%2F%2Fid46.r.cathey-corp.com%2FFAQpaiement.php) free delivery (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_21&l=http%3A%2F%2Fid46.r.cathey-corp.com%2FFAQlivraison.php) traking your order online (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_22&l=http%3A%2F%2Fid46.r.cathey-corp.com%2FFAQcommande.php) premium site fianet (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_25&l=http%3A%2F%2Fid46.r.cathey-corp.com%2FFAQFIAnet.php) join us on facebook (http://lt.cathey-corp.com/r.php?i=60M3YWNV_26226_15&l=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fchemiseweb%3Fref%3Dmf) All OUR ITEMS IN STOCK All the shirts and accessories offered by webmenshirts com are available in stock in our own warehouses, which allows us: - To deliver all our clients' orders with no risk of product shortage. - To guarantee a better service quality standard and an immediate delivery. - To carry out a quality control of the shirts before offering them on the website webmenshirts com - To send the parcels within 48 hours or less (working days) following the confirmation of your order. EXPRESS PREPARATION IN 48 H The orders are all handed over to the COLISSIMO service of LA POSTE (the French postal service) within 48 hours or less following the sending of the e-mail order confirmation. Packaging : All sent shirts are arranged in a rigid cardboard packaging in order to preserve our products' quality and ensure that the shirts are delivered in perfect condition. Delivery information : You will simultaneously receive an e-mail indicating the expedition number which will allow you to follow the transportation of your parcel on the website. www.laposte.fr/colissimo Delivery : The COLISSIMO service of LA POSTE is committed to handing your order over to you in exchange for a signature within the following times : - Metropolitan France : 48 Hours (working days) - Other destinations : from 7 to 10 days depending on destination n SHIPMENT FEES : The shipment fees are calculated depending on your address of delivery and are added to the price of your shopping basket. Shipment fees add up to 7,20 € per order to be delivered in Metropolitan France. Shipment fees add up to 15,90 € per order to be delivered in the DOM TOM. Shipment fees add up to 15,90 € per order to be delivered in a country of the EEC. 7 DAYS FOR YOUR RETURNS, 7 DAYS FOR YOUR REFUND You have 7 days to return an item which does not meet your expectations and Webmenshirts will reimburse you within 7 days. You can obtain a Return request number very simply. Click on My account, login and click on Return request or Exchange. A return request number will be automatically attributed online. Subject to compliance with the Terms and Conditions, Webmenshirts com will fully refund the amount of your purchase including the delivery charges, by re-crediting your bank card within seven days of receiving the return parcel. Charges for returning the parcel are at your cost. LOYALTY PROGRAMME Become a Webmenshirts customer, and enter into the world of Webmenshirts : stay on top of our latest news and transform your purchases into reductions and other privileges! More exclusive benefits and sales promotions, without any conditions on participation or usage. YOUR BENEFITS Webmenshirts rewards you for all of your purchases! Each loyalty point is converted to a reduction %. As soon as you have earned a certain number of points, you win reduction coupons to use on your future purchases at id46.r.cathey-corp.com. Your loyalty is really rewarded ! For every 10€ spent, you obtain 0,5 loyalty points. Each loyalty point represents a 1% reduction on your future purchases (not including delivery charges)* up to 300€ total purchase, or 15% off. Example: for 70€ of purchases, you earn 3,5 loyalty points. * Please note : within a 10€ bracket, rounding off rules apply. Example: for 104€, you earn 5 loyalty points (rounded off to 100€). Reduction coupons are edited with one digit after decimal per 0,5 bracket. The maximum reduction is fixed at 15% (equivalent to 300€ of purchases). HOW DOES IT WORK ? > You purchase an item or items at id46.r.cathey-corp.com. > Your loyalty points are converted to a percentage of reduction, in the limit of 15%. > You have reached the 300€ limit of purchases? An email with a promotional code, corresponding to the amount of your reduction coupon, will be sent to you automatically by email. > You have made a purchase over 300€ or your total number of loyalty points is over the 15% reduction limit? A 15% off redyuction coupon is automatically edited and the balance is kept in your customer account. > Your reduction coupons cannot be combined and are valid one year. You may use your reduction coupon for any order, without any minimum amount restrictions. > Your reduction coupons cannot be combined and are valid one year. You may use your reduction coupon for any order, without any minimum amount restrictions. The discount of your coupon is applicable on all items on the site except items on sale or promotion. Webmenshirts - Manufacturer of trendy high-end shirts - Direct sales from manufacturer to customer Over 600 models available from 39,99€ to 47,90€ maximum price. Pursuant to French Law No. 17 of 78 January 6, 1978 as amended by Law of 6 August 2005 relating to computers, files and freedoms, the participants have a right to access, modify, correct and delete personal data from contact@chemiseweb com Si vous voulez vous désinscrire, suivre ce lien (http://front.cathey-corp.com/php/emailing/u.php?CODE=60M3YWNV_26226&HASH=f7872a431b234bf68bf082080d47f674) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 14 13:40:18 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89F7EDE7 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:40:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from n1plout04-02.prod.ams1.secureserver.net (n1plout04-02.prod.ams1.secureserver.net [188.121.53.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C7098C07 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:40:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 20648 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2014 13:40:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (81.108.156.153) by n1plout04-02.prod.ams1.secureserver.net (188.121.53.2) with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2014 13:40:09 -0000 From: "Ben" Subject: Purchase more likes today To: "freebsd-advocacy" MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:40:11 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.17 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:40:18 -0000 =EF=BB=BFHi, =20 My name is Ben and I am the Director of Social Media Likes. I trust yo= u don't mind me popping you an message out of the blue. I hope you are having a good 2014 so far! =20 We now have a database with approx 750,000 people who have taken part = in our online lifestyle survey. These people are all looking for comp= anies like yours to interact with through your Facebook or Twitter pag= es. =20 We can categorise these individuals dependant on their interests and d= irect them to your page once an order is placed. Geographics has impac= t in this, and will also let you specify particular locales. We now ha= ve a countless number of prospective clients unique to your organisati= on so please get in touch if you think this may benefit you. All transactions are made through Paypal to give the buyer the ability= to purchase with confidence. =20 Prices from :- =C2=A350 or $82 for 2,000 Facebook Likes =C2=A350 or $82 for 6,000 Instagram followers =C2=A345 or $74 for 7,000 Twitter followers =C2=A350 or $82 for 30,000 YouTube Views =20 If a new visitor logs on to your Facebook page and can see that you ha= ve 7000 likes compared to your competition with just 350 likes, they t= end to side with you even without considering price differences. =20 A free trial is available for genuine buyers. =20 If your organisation is looking to target new customers we also sell e= mails lists of people interested in what you are selling. Please email= back for further details. I hope you don=E2=80=99t mind me shooting you this email and I look fo= rward to being able to help you at some point in the future. =20 Many Thanks, =20 Ben =20 Unsubscribe by email From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 27 16:01:32 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33FEFFCB for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:01:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.mustanglist.com (mail3.mustanglist.com [50.16.231.103]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E53222 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:01:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.mustanglist.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.mustanglist.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA328151 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 11:01:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail3.mustanglist.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.mustanglist.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F7438120 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 11:01:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Gretchen Parker X-Mailer: MustangList [msg-1395936091.3839 en-mail3] X-RPTags: List Type Content X-MLlistcampaign: 575-110969 X-ML-Message-ID: <> X-ML-Message-Source: <> X-ML-Message-Trk: <> Subject: Unique, turn-key fundraising solutions for your organization To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20140327160131.5F7438120@mail3.mustanglist.com> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 11:01:31 -0500 (CDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.17 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: Gretchen Parker List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:01:32 -0000 [1]F2O Website [2]Funds2Orgs is a social enterprise that offers real, relevant, and engaging fundraising strategies to churches, nonprofits, schools, and civic groups. Through shoe drive fundraisers, your organization could exceed your 2014 fundraising goals! Engage your volunteers Collect Shoes Engage your volunteers and get started collecting gently worn, used shoes! Collect shoes! We provide the bags and rubber bands to get you started. We'll pick them up Get ready for your check Call us and we will arrange pick-up of the shoes - it's easy for you! Your check will help further promote the mission of your organization. F2O Website To stop receiving messages from the Sector Direct - Received & Opened, click [3]here. To pass a copy of this message on to a friend, click [4]here. This email was sent to you by: Funds2Orgs 520 N. Semoran Blvd., Suite 200 Orlando, FL 32807 [msg-1395936091.3839 en-mail3] References Visible links 1. http://r.mustanglist.com/redir.php/b/VEV3TDU3NS0xMTA5NjktMzE1MjIxMS0zNjU0ODYwMg~~/ 2. http://r.mustanglist.com/redir.php/b/V0l4TTU3NS0xMTA5NjktMzE1MjIxMi0zNjU0ODYwMg~~/ 3. http://www.mustanglist.com/us.php/msg/1395936091.3839/en/mail3 4. http://www.mustanglist.com/pio.php/msg/1395936091.3839/en/mail3 Hidden links: 5. http://www.mustanglist.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 28 13:20:01 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@smarthost.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FF078EA for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:20:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5706B86 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:20:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s2SDK03C055676 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:20:00 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s2SDK0ii055675; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:20:00 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:20:00 GMT Resent-Message-Id: <201403281320.s2SDK0ii055675@freefall.freebsd.org> Resent-From: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org (GNATS Filer) Resent-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Resent-Reply-To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org, Kim Lesmer Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEB11845 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:10:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from cgiserv.freebsd.org (cgiserv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA02EB1C for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:10:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from cgiserv.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.6]) by cgiserv.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s2SDAvwO015050 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:10:57 GMT (envelope-from nobody@cgiserv.freebsd.org) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by cgiserv.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s2SDAvqJ015049; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:10:57 GMT (envelope-from nobody) Message-Id: <201403281310.s2SDAvqJ015049@cgiserv.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:10:57 GMT From: Kim Lesmer To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org X-Send-Pr-Version: www-3.1 Subject: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:20:01 -0000 >Number: 188031 >Category: advocacy >Synopsis: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook >Confidential: no >Severity: non-critical >Priority: low >Responsible: freebsd-advocacy >State: open >Quarter: >Keywords: >Date-Required: >Class: doc-bug >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Fri Mar 28 13:20:00 UTC 2014 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: Kim Lesmer >Release: 10 >Organization: >Environment: >Description: On the FAQ here: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/faq/introduction.html It says, when explaining the different releases: "Briefly, -STABLE is aimed at the ISP, corporate user, or any user who wants stability and a minimal number of changes compared to the new (and possibly unstable) features of the latest -CURRENT snapshot." This is highly contradictory to the information provided several places in the Hanbook. For example: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/current-stable.html "This is still a development branch and, at any given time, the sources for FreeBSD-STABLE may or may not be suitable for general use. It is simply another engineering development track, not a resource for end-users." >How-To-Repeat: >Fix: I think having a FAQ section outside of the Handbook is a problem. It would be better, easier to keep track of things, if the FAQ is moved to the Handbook and then the above information corrected. >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 28 13:40:01 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@smarthost.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC87EFCE for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:40:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FFD1D76 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:40:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s2SDe1Ph061495 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:40:01 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s2SDe1oV061494; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:40:01 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:40:01 GMT Message-Id: <201403281340.s2SDe1oV061494@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Cc: From: Andrew Moseman Subject: RE: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andrew Moseman List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:40:01 -0000 The following reply was made to PR advocacy/188031; it has been noted by GNATS. From: Andrew Moseman To: Kim Lesmer , "freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org" Cc: Subject: RE: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:32:55 +0000 Good catch Kim, Another suggestion would be to link the FAQ to the hand book or vice versa = and manage only one definition. -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@fre= ebsd.org] On Behalf Of Kim Lesmer Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 9:11 AM To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org Subject: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook >Number: 188031 >Category: advocacy >Synopsis: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook >Confidential: no >Severity: non-critical >Priority: low >Responsible: freebsd-advocacy >State: open >Quarter: =20 >Keywords: =20 >Date-Required: >Class: doc-bug >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Fri Mar 28 13:20:00 UTC 2014 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: Kim Lesmer >Release: 10 >Organization: >Environment: >Description: On the FAQ here: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/faq/introduction.html It says, when explaining the different releases: "Briefly, -STABLE is aimed at the ISP, corporate user, or any user who want= s stability and a minimal number of changes compared to the new (and possib= ly unstable) features of the latest -CURRENT snapshot." This is highly contradictory to the information provided several places in = the Hanbook. For example: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/current-stable.html "This is still a development branch and, at any given time, the sources for= FreeBSD-STABLE may or may not be suitable for general use. It is simply an= other engineering development track, not a resource for end-users." >How-To-Repeat: >Fix: I think having a FAQ section outside of the Handbook is a problem. It would= be better, easier to keep track of things, if the FAQ is moved to the Hand= book and then the above information corrected. >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: _______________________________________________ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/= listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 28 15:05:42 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 499C8EB5 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:05:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-qg0-x22d.google.com (mail-qg0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04F12879 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:05:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id j5so4510196qga.18 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:05:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=oDHzOADtzak0Xha70b40f69VsSjJ/wGRMmPiNBvg+uo=; b=Hd3Niw1v25B9MGTFsSnXvqeD6vKwx4clB/09K58Rwdk1wB+vmyfpkNhfdIUGD7AI5u cffgtH1WTqPrFYX/9LdhopuyijsxKz9XK5Tz+N9+Xaba7yV2ttXP3xdCNyd1cEy3ujf2 xybt2DaRPkJoVbTXGkDcKRF/s/x8gUc9tWs9U= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=oDHzOADtzak0Xha70b40f69VsSjJ/wGRMmPiNBvg+uo=; b=iSCwk91MWFANUvrS5x4NGu64HhEz9lTYQ0UHtmpQGTv/Mg08oMJu1EwkUzAz7Aql04 HDLr0sBjzycYxoI3F4WmxSjZcyisqnP5glshTK1h2vylRZ11jrUgtdg0vClb/jReTvc9 NAvfB+tXLIoH8SZtiN2VqMbIT13wEzfN8BC+ol5+yUGh3dctp5Ke2hf5lzB5jZaQBDPa Yk5s28Pb+5qj9qJcTfK6t2g7bLHQhhgm30+alNuakoglXKPl54yYX5JEvw/2XGWHWbl4 21SXPuTtJlGgDi0Dmv9FG00lXfAjYR5FsHgPID9MSg2DzoItLHYBs7kYv5BTm3YYVwjQ LrwA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmv2DR5hUJ/Oo5CjRwNbeAyWAEQ9yNfomc4uglVU+QBHGX0uvQLTQHY3E8Hmeosk6VkGfO9 X-Received: by 10.140.100.129 with SMTP id s1mr9317655qge.43.1396019141112; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:05:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.147.225 with HTTP; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:05:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201403281340.s2SDe1oV061494@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <201403281340.s2SDe1oV061494@freefall.freebsd.org> From: Eitan Adler Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:05:11 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook To: Andrew Moseman , bug-followup Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:05:42 -0000 FWIW the handbook is correct: -stable is a development branch. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 28 15:10:01 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@smarthost.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE9911AE for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:10:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FCD68D1 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:10:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s2SFA1UC089341 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:10:01 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s2SFA1ej089340; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:10:01 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:10:01 GMT Message-Id: <201403281510.s2SFA1ej089340@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Cc: From: Eitan Adler Subject: Re: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eitan Adler List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:10:01 -0000 The following reply was made to PR advocacy/188031; it has been noted by GNATS. From: Eitan Adler To: Andrew Moseman , bug-followup Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: advocacy/188031: Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:05:11 -0700 FWIW the handbook is correct: -stable is a development branch. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 31 11:06:40 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90BB58FA for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:06:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64116B8C for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:06:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s2VB6eho058608 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:06:40 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s2VB6dtL058605 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:06:39 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:06:39 GMT Message-Id: <201403311106.s2VB6dtL058605@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:06:40 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 05:47:17 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03EED247 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 05:47:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-qg0-x231.google.com (mail-qg0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E671F66 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 05:47:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qg0-f49.google.com with SMTP id i50so263584qgf.36 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:47:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=dfQb8old8D4xyTlX0L15CGf1sS2aFeaArma9A46r60M=; b=fPUlBZ6JfLki0L1QwwFohZUr8Ye0P6CUCFw3Tos8TGyRC4H27X4i3OmuwH1s9jUTKK 6PRIfjzXb8BAva4yv79BZxoZCOhsxDySa++iTbNRCPQ2uUmgX9Up5Gjus4Q+iVWeRvmI 5zN5WeEeT3rjeJN3X5knfYAG44oyqVM9N0/T8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dfQb8old8D4xyTlX0L15CGf1sS2aFeaArma9A46r60M=; b=htI69mGiyqCHnfFpHpdpDvwD7L3z9PPBNWYf/XlH22xc9996rI6t0EMGu8em0QpLEV k350ThbdKvPxE2vstnJByX8qz7cbL/ewHZglk+mBSvXOLXU9NftKTbE1wrSoWjZVci8P szsBBqGeZhNmjqszz6ofpZaVoSesfUhHHllxhZuv8ojd7aCs1EyP03pEQDPUIZUrlyOY P3kiepl7cRgHo6+V0x9Hd3cRq+peQ2F3ONZofOe/dZ3DJT8IFf6rArHePp1xzPYiYexe wn0spRDlbenmiGqJxSlWkLWB4mtIJOy0P6VtEC4X3UStSc43OFb4tSWjx3vhrAEILenL P+NA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkmE/jPuk5yLy8/06E7xvP1AoOPwXOIOZn90sLkcYyM7gCkBpz72SvlySYJURjvfzsupfh6 X-Received: by 10.224.151.130 with SMTP id c2mr12897432qaw.67.1396331235700; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:47:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.147.225 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:46:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Eitan Adler Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:46:45 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Leaving the Desktop Market To: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 05:47:17 -0000 Hi all, Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: Battery life sucks: it=E2=80=99s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Wind= ows can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it=E2=80=99s tha= t we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"? In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways. That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded use. Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 06:39:29 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F0FBF45; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 06:39:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vps1.elischer.org (vps1.elischer.org [204.109.63.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "vps1.elischer.org", Issuer "CA Cert Signing Authority" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9E95609; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 06:39:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jre-mbp.elischer.org (ppp121-45-232-70.lns20.per1.internode.on.net [121.45.232.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by vps1.elischer.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s316dMWo035788 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 31 Mar 2014 23:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <533A5F14.80602@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 14:39:16 +0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eitan Adler , hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 06:39:29 -0000 On 4/1/14, 1:46 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all Hey it's not an apr 1 joke if it's true.. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 06:44:46 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14B5C462; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 06:44:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from tds-solutions.net (tds-solutions.net [69.164.206.65]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24896CA; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 06:44:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.224] (unknown [69.43.65.114]) (Authenticated sender: tyler) by tds-solutions.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A0A2FA060; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 00:51:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <533A604E.4030609@tysdomain.com> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 02:44:30 -0400 From: "Littlefield, Tyler" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: tyler@tysdomain.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 06:44:46 -0000 On 4/1/2014 1:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can > be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a > desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD > can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default > and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. > > The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: > > Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows > can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it > two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that > we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS > can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run > for 16? > > Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically > change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do > that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be > staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get > sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. > > FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't > released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on > FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with > the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"? > > In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera > only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason > for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape > Linux anyways. > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > server or embedded use. > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > Linux world? I don't know much about BSD on the desktop, but it's somewhere I'd like to go eventually. This comment caught me off, however. The fact that there are thousands of flavors of Linux vs one flavor of a BSD desktop is sort of irrelivant--it could be applied, by that same method to BSD as a server. there are hundreds of Linux distributions that can be used as a server, so by your logic, "how do hundreds of Linux servers stand up to 3 flavors of BSD?" I switched to BSD for a few reasons: 1) The documentation is amazing. As with any project, it can be improved as was mentioned in the most recent BSDNow, but the only other close call I can see is maybe Archlinux, and I don't want that on a server. 2) The ports and PKGNG system is beyond amazing. 3) The organization is more amazing. Everything is incredibly intuitive. I love the customization, flexability and organization of BSD. 4) I didn't care until rather recently, but anything that lets me rely less and less on GNU and the GPL is a bonus. Given this, I commend everyone who has put hundreds of hours of work into making BSD a desktop system. Rather than suggest that BSD stays merely a server OS, why not pose these issues as problems or milestones. Perhaps sound has some drawbacks, but when the day arrives when it is up to par, I can almost guarantee if the BSD ideals remain the same that it'll be so much easier and cleaner to use than pulse/alsa, etc. Eitan Adler _______________________________________________ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 07:11:34 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 144BEC71; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:11:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.iXsystems.com (newknight.ixsystems.com [206.40.55.70]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB1CB985; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:11:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (mail.ixsystems.com [10.2.55.1]) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D62736FF; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 00:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.iXsystems.com ([10.2.55.1]) by localhost (mail.ixsystems.com [10.2.55.1]) (maiad, port 10024) with ESMTP id 47829-08; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 00:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.0.6] (unknown [10.8.0.6]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 83981736F6; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 00:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Jordan Hubbard In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 12:11:19 +0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Eitan Adler X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 07:11:34 -0000 On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > server or embedded use. >=20 > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > Linux world? The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if = it=92s just an elaborate April Fool=92s joke, but then the notion of = *BSD (or Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another = long-running April fool=92s joke, so I=92m willing to postulate that two = April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other out and make this = posting a serious one again. :-) I=92ll choose to be serious and say what I=92m about to say in spite of = the fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like = the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, = the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There = never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose =93the= power to serve=94 as FreeBSD=92s first marketing slogan? It makes a = fine server OS and it=92s easy to defend its role in the server room. = It=92s also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which = is another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the = recent developments there. A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be =93BSD on the desktop=94 = (and while they share some common technologies, it=92s increasingly a = stretch to say that), it=92s just never going to happen for (at least) = the following reasons: 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete = top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just = trying to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You = need to optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power = efficiency (which actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture = knowledge), you need a kernel scheduler that is power management aware, = you need a process management system that runs as few things as possible = and knows how to schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you = need timers to be coalesced at the level where applications consume = them, the list just goes on and on. It=92s a lot of engineering work, = and to drive that work you also need a lot of telemetry data and people = with big sticks running around hitting people who write = power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither. 2. Multimedia. A real end-user=92s desktop is basically one big UI for = watching things, listening to things, and running apps. A decent audio = / video subsystem is just one part of the picture, and one that has = always been really weak - entire engineering teams can spend years = working on codecs, performance optimizations, low and guaranteed latency = support for audio I/O, etc. What=92s worse, the bar is only being = raised. You want to be part of the next wave of folks who can author = and edit content for the new 4K video standard? Not on FreeBSD or = Linux, you=92re not. 3. Applications. A desktop without real and useful applications is not = a desktop, it=92s just an empty display surface. Sure, there are users = out there who are happy with just a mail client, a web browser and maybe = a calendaring app, but those users are also arguably even better = candidates for Chrome or other simplified environments where all of that = simply happens in a fancy web browser and you get things like =93software = updates=94 and cloud integration essentially for free since it=92s all = just one cohesive picture there. The ability to solve those user=92s = needs very simply makes them ripe targets for the web application = delivery platforms. For the other folks who want to do fancier stuff like mix audio, edit = videos or even just play mainstream 3D games that were actually = published sometime in the last year, they=92ll use a real desktop OS and = won't even bother looking at one of the free ones because guess what, = the free ones just can=92t do those things, or do them badly enough that = their users feel like they=92re perpetually living in a kind of = self-selected ghetto. Metaphorically speaking, sleeping on the floor in = a sleeping bag in your one-room apartment is fine when you=92re young, = but as you get older, you want to be more comfortable and have a real = bed in a real house! Those are just three reasons. There are lots more, not least of which = among them is the fact that it=92s damn hard even just to *create* = significant applications with the weak-ass APIs that *BSD and Linux = provide. You have to stitch together some Frankenstein collection of = libraries out of ports (or linux packages) and then hope the whole pile = of multi-=93vendor" bits will sort of work together, which of course = they rarely do because they were written by several hundred different = people with no mandate to interoperate. April fool=92s joke? Yes, the desktop has always been one in the OSS = space. It=92s a lousy OSS problem to try and solve because all the = hardest parts are things nobody wants to do for free, and there=92s no = money to be made just providing the OS (even Ubuntu, the current leader, = seems to have =93pledge drives=94 every other week). - Jordan From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 07:19:12 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3F76F03; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:19:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.turbocat.net (mail.turbocat.net [IPv6:2a01:4f8:d16:4514::2]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44D209D7; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:19:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from laptop015.home.selasky.org (cm-176.74.213.204.customer.telag.net [176.74.213.204]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.turbocat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D57641FE027; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:19:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <533A689D.3090608@selasky.org> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 09:19:57 +0200 From: Hans Petter Selasky User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eitan Adler , hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 07:19:12 -0000 Hi, On 04/01/14 07:46, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can > be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a > desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD > can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default > and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. Can this be translated that "the green is always better on the other side" ? > > The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: > > Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows > can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it > two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that > we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS > can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run > for 16? > > Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically > change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do > that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be > staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get > sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. I agree that there are usability issues with the sound framework in FreeBSD. I've seen this myself, for example trying to get sound using firefox, you now need pulseaudio and it must be configured correctly. I'm pretty sure there are people around in the FreeBSD project that are quite capable and could easily fix these issues, given some coordination and funding. Probably you should ask the FreeBSD foundation to fund a developer for a year or two to work on the desktop issues. Desktop is complicated. You need to understand that many device frameworks are designed entirely for other platforms, and I think that the current approach to compile Linux oriented code like "HAL" under FreeBSD is not always the right approach. We need to make our own "HAL" that is compatible with the "Linux" Applications, that need to know where the scanner or webcam is attached. Speaking about sound again, I think we need a tiny library and daemon that sits between /dev/dspX.X and the applications, that pulls together the most common audio libraries, like portaudio, pulseaudio and the KDE one, into a single and brand new solution. I did propose something at EuroBSDcon last year, that we can use character device emulation in user-space, cuse4bsd, to achieve this. > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > server or embedded use. Did FreeBSD ever compete on the Desktop market? While touching this topic, I must say that I'm very grateful to all you port-guys that keep stuff compiling and working on the Desktop front. I've asked myself a few times during the last couple of years, who are the people really making my FreeBSD Desktop work? Did they receive enough thanks or funds for their work? > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > Linux world? Because something does not work in FreeBSD it can prove an excellent opportunity for someone to fix it! Don't underestimate that! --HPS From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 07:38:40 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68ABB2FB; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:38:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from theravensnest.org (theraven.freebsd.your.org [216.14.102.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "theravensnest.org", Issuer "theravensnest.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17A03B64; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:38:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (cpc14-cmbg15-2-0-cust307.5-4.cable.virginm.net [82.26.1.52]) (authenticated bits=0) by theravensnest.org (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s317cXnf045166 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:38:35 GMT (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 08:38:28 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3F7430D7-3C0F-43E1-8EBD-8AA4F701497C@FreeBSD.org> References: To: Jordan Hubbard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 07:38:40 -0000 On 1 Apr 2014, at 08:11, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete = top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just = trying to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You = need to optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power = efficiency (which actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture = knowledge), you need a kernel scheduler that is power management aware, = you need a process management system that runs as few things as possible = and knows how to schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you = need timers to be coalesced at the level where applications consume = them, the list just goes on and on. It=92s a lot of engineering work, = and to drive that work you also need a lot of telemetry data and people = with big sticks running around hitting people who write = power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither. Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the = Core Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important = goal, in particular for mobile / embedded scenarios. We're currently = coordinating potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals = from people interested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in = either category then please drop either me, core, or the Foundation an = email. Some things have already seen progress, for example Davide's calloutng = work includes timer coalescing, but there are still a lot of, uh, = opportunities for improvement. The Symbian EKA2 book has some very = interesting detail on their power management infrastructure, which would = be worth looking at for anyone interested in working on this, and I = believe your former employer had some expertise in this area. Of course, no matter how good the base system becomes at power = management, we still can't prevent stuff in ports running idle = spinloops. We can, however, provide tools that encourage = power-efficient design. For example, currently hald wakes up every 30 = seconds and polls the optical drive if you have one. Why? Because = there's no devd event when a CD is inserted, so the only way for it to = get these notifications is polling. If you have a laptop with an = optical drive, this is really bad for power usage. =20 David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 09:40:49 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97E1892A; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:40:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [217.69.76.211]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00242A33; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:40:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.0x20.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9602A6A6007; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 11:40:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s319ejnY010298; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 11:40:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: (from lars@localhost) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id s319eiax009439; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 11:40:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 11:40:44 +0200 From: Lars Engels To: Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market Message-ID: <20140401094044.GX44074@e-new.0x20.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yKmnPmKxJBqIz68t" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 7.4 X-Operation-System: FreeBSD 8.4-RELEASE-p4 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 09:40:49 -0000 --yKmnPmKxJBqIz68t Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 12:11:19PM +0500, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >=20 > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: >=20 > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > > server or embedded use. > >=20 > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > > Linux world? >=20 > The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if > it=E2=80=99s just an elaborate April Fool=E2=80=99s joke, but then the no= tion of *BSD > (or Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another > long-running April fool=E2=80=99s joke, so I=E2=80=99m willing to postula= te that two > April Fools jokes would simply cancel each other out and make this > posting a serious one again. :-) >=20 > I=E2=80=99ll choose to be serious and say what I=E2=80=99m about to say i= n spite of > the fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually > like the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like > PBIs, the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. >=20 > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There > never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose > =E2=80=9Cthe power to serve=E2=80=9D as FreeBSD=E2=80=99s first marketing= slogan? It makes a > fine server OS and it=E2=80=99s easy to defend its role in the server roo= m. > It=E2=80=99s also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, w= hich > is another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the > recent developments there. >=20 > A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be =E2=80=9CBSD on the deskto= p=E2=80=9D > (and while they share some common technologies, it=E2=80=99s increasingly= a > stretch to say that), it=E2=80=99s just never going to happen for (at lea= st) > the following reasons: >=20 > 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete > top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just > trying to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You > need to optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power > efficiency (which actually involves a fair amount of micro > architecture knowledge), you need a kernel scheduler that is power > management aware, you need a process management system that runs as > few things as possible and knows how to schedule things during package > wake-up intervals, you need timers to be coalesced at the level where > applications consume them, the list just goes on and on. It=E2=80=99s a = lot > of engineering work, and to drive that work you also need a lot of > telemetry data and people with big sticks running around hitting > people who write power-inefficient code. FreeBSD has neither. >=20 > 2. Multimedia. A real end-user=E2=80=99s desktop is basically one big UI= for > watching things, listening to things, and running apps. A decent > audio / video subsystem is just one part of the picture, and one that > has always been really weak - entire engineering teams can spend years > working on codecs, performance optimizations, low and guaranteed > latency support for audio I/O, etc. What=E2=80=99s worse, the bar is only > being raised. You want to be part of the next wave of folks who can > author and edit content for the new 4K video standard? Not on FreeBSD > or Linux, you=E2=80=99re not. >=20 > 3. Applications. A desktop without real and useful applications is > not a desktop, it=E2=80=99s just an empty display surface. Sure, there a= re > users out there who are happy with just a mail client, a web browser > and maybe a calendaring app, but those users are also arguably even > better candidates for Chrome or other simplified environments where > all of that simply happens in a fancy web browser and you get things > like =E2=80=9Csoftware updates=E2=80=9D and cloud integration essentially= for free > since it=E2=80=99s all just one cohesive picture there. The ability to s= olve > those user=E2=80=99s needs very simply makes them ripe targets for the web > application delivery platforms. >=20 > For the other folks who want to do fancier stuff like mix audio, edit > videos or even just play mainstream 3D games that were actually > published sometime in the last year, they=E2=80=99ll use a real desktop O= S and > won't even bother looking at one of the free ones because guess what, > the free ones just can=E2=80=99t do those things, or do them badly enough= that > their users feel like they=E2=80=99re perpetually living in a kind of > self-selected ghetto. Metaphorically speaking, sleeping on the floor > in a sleeping bag in your one-room apartment is fine when you=E2=80=99re > young, but as you get older, you want to be more comfortable and have > a real bed in a real house! >=20 > Those are just three reasons. There are lots more, not least of which > among them is the fact that it=E2=80=99s damn hard even just to *create* > significant applications with the weak-ass APIs that *BSD and Linux > provide. You have to stitch together some Frankenstein collection of > libraries out of ports (or linux packages) and then hope the whole > pile of multi-=E2=80=9Cvendor" bits will sort of work together, which of > course they rarely do because they were written by several hundred > different people with no mandate to interoperate. >=20 > April fool=E2=80=99s joke? Yes, the desktop has always been one in the O= SS > space. It=E2=80=99s a lousy OSS problem to try and solve because all the > hardest parts are things nobody wants to do for free, and there=E2=80=99s= no > money to be made just providing the OS (even Ubuntu, the current > leader, seems to have =E2=80=9Cpledge drives=E2=80=9D every other week). >=20 > - Jordan I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my mail client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail! ;-) --yKmnPmKxJBqIz68t Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (FreeBSD) iKYEARECAGYFAlM6iZxfFIAAAAAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3Bl bnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE3RkMwOEUxNUUwOUJEMjE0ODlFMjA1MDI5 Q0U3NURBQzBGNzY5RjgACgkQKc512sD3afhPMQCdFCh7dzFdsZkqmKiWPl4uAh/Q r60AoL+0TOUnX5i+jRw0fFdggmsgaTog =s2T1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yKmnPmKxJBqIz68t-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 12:07:42 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3597A7F2; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 12:07:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mrout3.yahoo.com (mrout3.yahoo.com [216.145.54.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0058D9B4; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 12:07:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (proxy7.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.98]) by mrout3.yahoo.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/y.out) with ESMTP id s31BvACX080264 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Apr 2014 04:57:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=yahoo-inc.com; s=cobra; t=1396353431; bh=VvBJnwGXg8AwxpSbhED9xA7cXAafgzMQ5wokxoQQvqg=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=AKIkUPYW/Gyfy7ByQuQWjtAHnjMRsML4B6cmjejsrcvCZGr2X8ybS7jon2H2vv1Jg 3cAl1XXO945TePPgwRypbGLdrD6Cq4mc2U/H0BlAfUtMmJNNqMH+xXtRA5nONLotsS yFn+uA1HjF4Fze4hmVH66ersMyIP6KSxpjTprLgs= Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Sean Bruno To: Eitan Adler In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 04:57:09 -0700 Message-ID: <1396353429.56465.7.camel@powernoodle.corp.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Milter-Version: master.31+4-gbc07cd5+ X-CLX-ID: 353430004 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 12:07:42 -0000 On Mon, 2014-03-31 at 22:46 -0700, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can > be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a > desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD > can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default > and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. > > The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: > > Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows > can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it > two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that > we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS > can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run > for 16? > > Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically > change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do > that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be > staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get > sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. > > FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't > released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on > FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with > the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"? > > In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera > only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason > for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape > Linux anyways. > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > server or embedded use. > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > Linux world? > Why even bother? Its over, just embrace the future and be like this happy Mac user: http://people.freebsd.org/~sbruno/happy_desktop_user.jpg sean From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 14:10:54 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37A6EFB2; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 14:10:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from udns.ultimateDNS.NET (ultimatedns.net [209.180.214.225]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E95D18A2; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 14:10:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from udns.ultimateDNS.NET (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by udns.ultimateDNS.NET (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s31EDZkT080314; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:13:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@bsdforge.com) Received: (from www@localhost) by udns.ultimateDNS.NET (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id s31EDSv5080298; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:13:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@bsdforge.com) Received: from unavailable02.ultimatedns.net ([209.180.214.228]) (UDNSMS authenticated user chrish) by ultimatedns.net with HTTP; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8a48d1f8fdae94c540f42582b415f417.authenticated@ultimatedns.net> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: "Chris H" To: "Eitan Adler" User-Agent: UDNSMS/2.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 14:10:54 -0000 > Hi all, > > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can > be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a > desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD > can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default > and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. Ha, ha, ha. Reminds me of the long running 04-01 gag stating that kernel.org ran on FreeBSD. As to "Leaving the Desktop Market"; +1. OK by me. OTOH The following /will/ give you everything you /claim/ isn't /currently/ possible. x11/xorg-minimal x11-wm/xfce4 audio/aquqlung multimedia/vlc The above list also gives you the ability to switch output(s) on the fly (via mixer). "exotic" video card? emulators/linux_base-f10 x11/nvidia-driver --Chris P.S. Happy April fools to you, too. > > The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: > > Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows > can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it > two hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that > we focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS > can run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run > for 16? > > Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically > change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do > that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be > staring at an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get > sound streaming to other machines working if you tried. > > FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't > released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on > FreeBSD. Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with > the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"? > > In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera > only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason > for vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape > Linux anyways. > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > server or embedded use. > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > Linux world? > > Eitan Adler > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 14:46:43 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63C93907; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 14:46:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mx1.fisglobal.com", Issuer "VeriSign Class 3 Secure Server CA - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BA45C68; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 14:46:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smarthost.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.193]) by ltcfislmsgpa04.fnfis.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s31EkTAG030955 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:46:29 -0500 Received: from THEMADHATTER (10.242.181.54) by smarthost.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.193) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:46:26 -0500 From: Sender: Devin Teske To: "'Eitan Adler'" , , , References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:46:16 -0700 Message-ID: <082a01cf4db9$240d3e90$6c27bbb0$@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQGHdVWSFOXlP15hf4gexL3l1E1JDZuMhnNw Content-Language: en-us X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-04-01_05:2014-04-01,2014-04-01,1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: dteske@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 14:46:43 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Eitan Adler [mailto:lists@eitanadler.com] > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 10:47 PM > To: hackers@freebsd.org; current@freebsd.org; freebsd- > advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Leaving the Desktop Market >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can be a > worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop.= In > short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD can be coerced to = do > the right thing, it is rarely there by default and often doesn't work as = well as > we would expect. >=20 > The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: >=20 > Battery life sucks: it=E2=80=99s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Wi= ndows can run > for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two hours. I > wonder what the key differences are? Likely it=E2=80=99s that we focus s= o much on > performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can run for 12 hours > on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? >=20 > Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically > change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do > that in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be star= ing at > an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming= to > other machines working if you tried. >=20 > FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't > released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBS= D. > Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with the caveat: "but > you won't be able to use your graphics card"? >=20 > In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera on= ly > works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for vend= ors to > bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux anyways. >=20 > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the desktop > market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux desktop" and > start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server or embedded u= se. >=20 > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I must > ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux world? >=20 Eitan, While I understand your frustration, VICOR is using FreeBSD as a Desktop si= nce FreeBSD 2.2. We don't use sound and we are fine relying on vesa. While I understand that the things you listed are actual short-comings for = normal Desktop users, I think it's the wrong decision to say that we should be ba= cking out *any* functionality that would make the Desktop any more difficult to produce. As it stands, it would take me weeks just to count the number of workstatio= ns that are running a GUI, rely on one of the existing video drivers (nv, rade= on, mach64, etc.) and use lots of Desktop ports. --=20 Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidentia= l. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message an= d all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any ma= nner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware= that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and revie= w by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 15:32:22 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C409E95E; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:32:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.waitman.net (mx.waitman.net [136.0.16.173]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A231F5F2; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:32:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mx.waitman.net (Postfix, from userid 2) id 32B9F4636F; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 00:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 70.90.171.37 by mx.waitman.net with HTTP; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 00:32:16 -0700 Message-ID: <042a9d0660e68acaf4471a571383df8e.squirrel@mx.waitman.net> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 00:32:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: "Waitman Gobble" To: "Eitan Adler" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.5.2 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: uzimac@da3m0n8t3r.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 15:32:22 -0000 On Mon, March 31, 2014 10:46 pm, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can be a > worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. > In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD > can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and > often doesn't work as well as we would expect. > > The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: > > > Battery life sucks: it’s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows > can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two > hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it’s that we > focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can > run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? > > Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically > change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that > in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at > an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming > to other machines working if you tried. > > FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't > released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. > Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with > the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"? > > In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera > only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for > vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux > anyways. > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server > or embedded use. > > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux > world? > > Eitan Adler > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Hi, I don't understand the gripe about sound. OSS works well. If you install the verson in ports, audio/oss, you get a more elaborate set of tools. (you can use the tools with the OSS drivers in base, its possible to remove the base OSS system and *only* use the updated OSS system however there are some caveats that may cause serious issues with a 'user', if you don't want to get your hands dirty don't mess with that.) Anyhow, last I went through a few month period of experimenting with sound and picked up a bunch of hardware on ebay, different cards from various vendors, ie asus, creative, etc. Its possible and not too difficult to have four or five cards on the machine and use them simultaneously. I didn't notice any problem switching from speakers to headphones while music is playing. Maybe this works on other operating systems, i haven't tried. The thing about sound, the card is a digital-to-analog converter, and vice-versa. It uses PCM data. (PCM was actually first 'invented' in the 1800's - no fools joke). Digital audio/Sound has never really gotten better, it has only gotten cheaper. -- Waitman Gobble San Jose California USA +1.510-830-7975 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 15:45:56 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E424DFDC; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:45:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zimbra2.tngtech.com (zimbra2.tngtech.com [212.204.93.103]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A59790; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:45:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra2.tngtech.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2B79CE0DC; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:45:55 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at tngtech.com Received: from zimbra2.tngtech.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra2.tngtech.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mfQEWYf4zfq4; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:45:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hactar.localnet (hactar.int.tngtech.com [10.1.2.115]) by zimbra2.tngtech.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 566019CE0D9; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:45:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Stefan Wendler To: lists@eitanadler.com, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Fwd: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 17:45:52 +0200 Message-ID: <1652875.CSUMLAyc3c@hactar> Organization: TNG Technology Consulting GmbH User-Agent: KMail/4.10.5 (FreeBSD/10.0-RELEASE; KDE/4.10.5; amd64; ; ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 15:45:57 -0000 Sorry, should have replied to everybody ;) Cheers ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market Date: Tuesday 01 April 2014, 17:34:28 From: Stefan Wendler To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Hi, On Monday 31 March 2014 22:46:45 Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" > and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can > be a worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a > desktop. In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD > can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default > and often doesn't work as well as we would expect. > I don't know the posts you are talking about. I'm using FreeBSD as a server since Version 7. Since FreeBSD 9 I'm also using it as main notebook OS. With everything you can imagine: sound, flash, 3D gfx, eve online via wine rocks, printing, scanning, you name it. Yes, FreeBSD has some rough edges. But after over 18 years of Linux I can say, Linux has enough rough edges and depending on the current needs I more than freaked out once with each distro. And I still am freaking out on a daily basis as a *nix admin when one of the Linux's shows their true face. Like undocumented autoupgrading that messes up your whole ovirt-cluster. I never had that with a BSD. But what there is to learn is, I only ever had problems with consumer/cheap hardware. Most Linux Distros suck at least one way. For me the only Distro that really made me happy for over 14 years was Gentoo. In a way FreeBSD is similar but much much cleaner and sorted. It may be that FreeBSD is not for you and you are more the Linux Mint/*buntu user. But it would be a nightmare for me, if the good FreeBSD folks would stop supporting X-stuff. I even give to the FreeBSD Foundation on a monthly basis with the wish to further support the desktop. FreeBSD is quite simple once you get the hang of it. But you have to be the person that likes to dig in sometimes. Currently it runs as smooth as butter here. When learning to use Gentoo for example I had not only one sleepless night where I had to fix broken libc upgrades without the ability to google that. But this is how we learn. With FreeBSD you have at least a running base system even if you mess up big time. Delete /usr/local/* but keep your /usr/local/etc and start over ... try that with Linux. No chance! I can go on here ;) The big lag of FreeBSD is indeed vendor support. But it won't get better if we drop support for stuff. I'm sorry FreeBSD is such an upsetting experience for you. > Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > Linux world? ... PCBSD stands out in that it is a really nice experience and people from the Linux world are asking about it and it just plain works mostly out of the box like a ubuntu or mint does, on hardware that is not no-name. And there is always GhostBSD (http://www.ghostbsd.org/) ... so there are two flavours already ;) The base system is still FreeBSD but I don't think that this is a problem. Ever fu**d around with getting the right packages in the right versions of some tools for example SuSE, CentOS, Debian, or whatever without freaking out? The different approaches in packaging systems on Linux is a mess as well. PCBSD is not for me though. But not that is isn't working but it is not for me as a BSD user as Ubuntu never was for me as a Linux/Gentoo user. Linux is not the silver bullet. And in every Linux forum there are always people that complain about why Linux or this or that distro sucks and why they move on. And even Linux wouldn't be what it is without the various BSDs. Cheers, Stefan P.S. One thing they could upgrade though is the linuxulator. _______________________________________________ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ----------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 14:52:40 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4A86367; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 14:52:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mx1.fisglobal.com", Issuer "VeriSign Class 3 Secure Server CA - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A668E0D; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 14:52:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smarthost.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.193]) by ltcfislmsgpa07.fnfis.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s31EqPjK014564 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:52:26 -0500 Received: from THEMADHATTER (10.242.181.54) by smarthost.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.193) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:52:23 -0500 From: Sender: Devin Teske To: "'Lars Engels'" , "'Jordan Hubbard'" References: <20140401094044.GX44074@e-new.0x20.net> In-Reply-To: <20140401094044.GX44074@e-new.0x20.net> Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 07:52:13 -0700 Message-ID: <083e01cf4db9$f8f4e040$eadea0c0$@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQGHdVWSFOXlP15hf4gexL3l1E1JDQM4JHNtASkPtVubaX9yoA== Content-Language: en-us X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.11.87, 1.0.14, 0.0.0000 definitions=2014-04-01_05:2014-04-01,2014-04-01,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:08:40 +0000 Cc: dteske@FreeBSD.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 14:52:40 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lars Engels [mailto:lars.engels@0x20.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 2:41 AM > To: Jordan Hubbard > Cc: Eitan Adler; hackers@freebsd.org; current@freebsd.org; freebsd- > advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market > > On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 12:11:19PM +0500, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > > > > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > > > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the [snip] > I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I > really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my mail > client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail! ;-) What e-mail client do you use? Evolution? -- Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 16:10:50 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B783C03; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:10:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-vc0-x232.google.com (mail-vc0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3232D9B9; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:10:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id im17so9839160vcb.23 for ; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 09:10:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=VmcQDsc/kaPsU7D+zENzNSUUBCpWO4GhOvLmJmrykOc=; b=VDE2TQBxAho2uMiTJAjR8nRrLwkG+Y6dipqbTe4tJSRsSZz91XC1knEfb47PXgl5Xe Nf2VYwp6EOSRrtUMsStO/dlZAuC9Y70Wi8NPVyMnUjgcYuOgp7npTcXOiCVqqO0eiR6d z0DqG1pNVq659+oF0Gi/RFWVM6nhHg7SQMA0ImoXAb9EM9s7ad6J5fnQOFb0e+MKZ6Kr RfoP+avyVjABwamjr41H6Raq54jAuolPK8mP/CO2Gl/g8r0IsbN+v+8vNYoZlX2koxSa pZvia9/IKSQAUUBgmwNkrlOXyqN4HoBMW8+1gFLYhAObllX2Cr7OAwXM0wMHrlCkLeuC D8Jg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.77.101 with SMTP id r5mr33528vdw.63.1396368648916; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 09:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Sender: sektie@gmail.com Received: by 10.221.6.70 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:10:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:10:48 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: GHFMpej5D67ojGOwoHZQS3Q9PNI Message-ID: Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Randi Harper To: Jordan Hubbard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.17 Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, "FreeBSD, Advocacy" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:10:50 -0000 On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never > has been and there never will be. Oh, god. I'm going to wake up for this mailing list just to say this: You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds are going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop! It's totally viable!" Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use case doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a small company. Many companies combined create a market. Back to sleep. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 16:20:05 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CE3AF41 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:20:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ob0-f181.google.com (mail-ob0-f181.google.com [209.85.214.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0161FA87 for ; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:20:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ob0-f181.google.com with SMTP id wp4so11292311obc.40 for ; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 09:20:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references :to; bh=gKv5pwnZSBqPlLpm5s0jAdHbB7zgwC1d/sfRjvyREyk=; b=bSb1I81bQneZ9OL3+UEcHWYpZf8fQQovRbLgaHv7Qg2568CgDA8BJTahQgzr7RpUqI 7CMMjLnki+d5acUfTDm8yUy71rVI3LauFVbNlWm7yxvGdsWFSr/9+tDPH91PnDCj3Ali VBGCA/pSS9VdkK6cueOMuOekIDbTwUGm1cVTJtBO1fYov8u/F0CCw4mixwofkMy6P8Ar L0QIafp01oEehtwExvSi2mmxTgnrwRsmuheUqIzvuyjud4JVYI5em2uu4wiXmCJTaoq1 x8TwI/kvoKQRp4Ma5n3ufGA/VyAypRixkVhijB8oXyhNcxMLEmfGJjzQo3FL9sFsDDHI j5xQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnmh+Svp5uNPteGOIaXQv66JAbIu5Xss7c+ZKIg4tMAUct9DD2sAgkaW6QPoSBV2LI1G1Qu X-Received: by 10.182.24.226 with SMTP id x2mr2412189obf.13.1396368774167; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 09:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jims-mini.pfmechanics.com ([208.123.73.29]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id cn1sm47486929oeb.11.2014.04.01.09.12.51 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Apr 2014 09:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Jim Thompson In-Reply-To: <1396353429.56465.7.camel@powernoodle.corp.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 11:12:50 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <84CEE725-93E4-40BC-8092-5768E9DB47E6@netgate.com> References: <1396353429.56465.7.camel@powernoodle.corp.yahoo.com> To: Sean Bruno X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:20:05 -0000 On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:57 AM, Sean Bruno wrote: > Why even bother? Its over, just embrace the future and be like this > happy Mac user: >=20 > http://people.freebsd.org/~sbruno/happy_desktop_user.jpg I have Macs at work (typing on one now), and a mac at home. I like = them. I recently installed FreeBSD 10 on an Intel i5 NUC. 16GB ram, and a = 120GB m-SATA SSD. I put a nice keyboard and an old 19=94 Dell monitor on it, used = vidconsole to make the screen green on black, and a decent resolution. It=92s just like being back in the 80s, when Unix had a desktop market, = only much, much faster.= From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 16:35:58 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4205C371; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:35:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from msxedgnsprd02.gw.upmc.edu (msxedgnsprd02.gw.upmc.edu [128.147.248.49]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "edgesmtp.upmc.edu", Issuer "DigiCert Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01984C0A; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:35:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from MSXHCSNSPRD06.acct.upmchs.net (10.25.36.150) by msxedgnsprd02.gw.upmc.edu (128.147.248.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.279.5; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 12:33:59 -0400 Received: from MSXMBXNSPRD18.acct.upmchs.net ([fe80::b9c2:2a8f:4156:e29a]) by MSXHCSNSPRD06.acct.upmchs.net ([fe80::bc42:b062:936d:ca9e%16]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 12:34:00 -0400 From: "Person, Roderick" To: Randi Harper , Jordan Hubbard Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market Thread-Index: AQHPTXK/Sv0Vejkt9U6Rw5R4emlPapr8m1GAgACWugD//8CwQA== Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:33:59 +0000 Message-ID: <09D177203C215546ACA94AF0459D4989EFF9DF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.24.32.190] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" , "hackers@freebsd.org" , "current@freebsd.org" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:35:58 -0000 -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@f= reebsd.org] On Behalf Of Randi Harper > >You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds ar= e going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my >desktop! It's total= ly viable!" > >Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're masoc= histic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual >use case doesn'= t indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a market. It's a base= ment. Your small company isn't a market. It's a >small company. Many compan= ies combined create a market. Why aren't all the nerds and small businesses out there a market? I'm no m= arketing expert or anything, but it would seem that there is some kind of m= arket out there that isn't being catered to. I may be a masochist, but I r= efuse to have to pay Apples prices for their hardware. They just seem insa= ne to me. If they ever decided to sell OS X for non-Apple hardware I might= use it. And just for the record I've been using FreeBSD as an exclusive home deskto= p since 1999. =20 At work now so however Outlook mangles this is my fault :) Rod Person Programmer (412)454-2616 Just because it can been done, does not mean it should be done. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 16:38:49 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1945426; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:38:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from udns.ultimateDNS.NET (ultimatedns.net [209.180.214.225]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF984C47; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:38:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from udns.ultimateDNS.NET (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by udns.ultimateDNS.NET (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s31GfM9m000764; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:41:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@bsdforge.com) Received: (from www@localhost) by udns.ultimateDNS.NET (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id s31GfGVA000750; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:41:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@bsdforge.com) Received: from unavailable02.ultimatedns.net ([209.180.214.228]) (UDNSMS authenticated user chrish) by ultimatedns.net with HTTP; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <042a9d0660e68acaf4471a571383df8e.squirrel@mx.waitman.net> References: <042a9d0660e68acaf4471a571383df8e.squirrel@mx.waitman.net> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: "Chris H" To: uzimac@da3m0n8t3r.com User-Agent: UDNSMS/2.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:38:49 -0000 > > On Mon, March 31, 2014 10:46 pm, Eitan Adler wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> >> Some of you may have seen my posts entitled "Story of a Laptop User" >> and "Story of a Desktop User". For those of you who did not, it can be a >> worthwhile read to see what life is like when using FreeBSD as a desktop. >> In short, it is an educational experience. While FreeBSD >> can be coerced to do the right thing, it is rarely there by default and >> often doesn't work as well as we would expect. >> >> The following are issues I haven't brought up in the past: >> >> >> Battery life sucks: it�s almost as if powerd wasn't running. Windows >> can run for five hours on my laptop while FreeBSD can barely make it two >> hours. I wonder what the key differences are? Likely it�s that we >> focus so much on performance that no one considers power. ChromeOS can >> run for 12 hours on some hardware; why can't we make FreeBSD run for 16? >> >> Sound configuration lacks key documentation: how can I automatically >> change between headphones and external speakers? You can't even do that >> in middle of a song at all! Trust me that you never want to be staring at >> an HDA pin configuration. I'll bet you couldn't even get sound streaming >> to other machines working if you tried. >> >> FreeBSD lacks vendor credibility: CUDA is unsupported. Dropbox hasn't >> released a client for FreeBSD. Nvidia Optimus doesn't function on FreeBSD. >> Can you imagine telling someone to purchase a laptop with >> the caveat: "but you won't be able to use your graphics card"? >> >> In any case, half of our desktop support is emulation: flash and opera >> only works because of the linuxulator. There really isn't any reason for >> vendors to bother supporting FreeBSD if we are just going to ape Linux >> anyways. >> >> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the >> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux >> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for server >> or embedded use. >> >> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I >> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the Linux >> world? >> >> Eitan Adler >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > Hi, > > I don't understand the gripe about sound. OSS works well. If you install > the verson in ports, audio/oss, you get a more elaborate set of tools. ---8<--- > > The thing about sound, the card is a digital-to-analog converter, and > vice-versa. It uses PCM data. (PCM was actually first 'invented' in the > 1800's - no fools joke). Digital audio/Sound has never really gotten > better, it has only gotten cheaper. WOW. That an interesting bit of historical information. Thanks for sharing it! --Chris > > > -- > Waitman Gobble > San Jose California USA > +1.510-830-7975 > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 17:11:29 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA21BE97; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:11:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pa0-x233.google.com (mail-pa0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A459A95; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:11:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id kq14so10149161pab.38 for ; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 10:11:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=E+ax7u65PAacNzXXWXH8y3DQ1R8vTX8PYda5aJzePks=; b=QE2HHdNdfRpvjPX8yg9ulVb+066RrqAFXTYXIQVh9y/64lGs9zbUFxRMG6VwhbptAI Ms+QpHi32APIA9fVMMs97dNnRN7Oex1ytot0wF9Y7+UUoGY/O0n9lKljgX+Bs+h0ZKZo RRKMFjG2Cej1YnGtK9RxICawrtfNF7knd23x5BcymQUVCzO/QgbZoSlbmLRblox63F2r KFC8o8IpBiFXjXVK5OEZAr4Quyhk4OEwJvOhJeEYyoUxsDnnjs+jiMkp8ktX6Io5AEJN hoLHPiMmckynd9Hp4IlrMBTxfAcABE6IlLMobrni8LQIJ+YAX/TaitajodaUKc4wiuil FpLg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.146.229 with SMTP id tf5mr32752540pab.50.1396372288266; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 10:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Sender: mattjeet@gmail.com Received: by 10.70.132.228 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 10:11:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 10:11:28 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: e2dkxKDub8NiNvBtK2CG2BGkDVQ Message-ID: Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Matt Olander To: Jordan Hubbard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: matt@ixsystems.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 17:11:29 -0000 On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard wr= ote: > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > >> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the >> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux >> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for >> server or embedded use. >> >> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I >> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the >> Linux world? > > The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if it's= just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or Linux= , for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April fool's= joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would simply = cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-) > > I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the f= act that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the fac= t that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail War= den, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There neve= r has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose "the power = to serve" as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine server OS a= nd it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also becoming eas= ier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another excellent niche = to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments there. > > A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be "BSD on the desktop" (and = while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to s= ay that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following reas= ons: As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game. This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing pretty well. I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc. In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me! Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P Cheers, -matt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 17:43:05 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C7E1E64; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:43:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45C483D2; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:43:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.0x20.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43B846A6007; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 19:43:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s31Hh3kw029600; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 19:43:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: (from lars@localhost) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id s31Hh27j028598; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 19:43:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 19:43:02 +0200 From: Lars Engels To: dteske@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market Message-ID: <20140401174302.GU44074@e-new.0x20.net> References: <20140401094044.GX44074@e-new.0x20.net> <083e01cf4db9$f8f4e040$eadea0c0$@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UEgmpZn7Z/frN9Sq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <083e01cf4db9$f8f4e040$eadea0c0$@FreeBSD.org> X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 7.4 X-Operation-System: FreeBSD 8.4-RELEASE-p4 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 18:36:53 +0000 Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, 'Jordan Hubbard' , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 17:43:05 -0000 --UEgmpZn7Z/frN9Sq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 07:52:13AM -0700, dteske@FreeBSD.org wrote: >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lars Engels [mailto:lars.engels@0x20.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 2:41 AM > > To: Jordan Hubbard > > Cc: Eitan Adler; hackers@freebsd.org; current@freebsd.org; freebsd- > > advocacy@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market > >=20 > > On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 12:11:19PM +0500, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > > > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > > > > > > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > > > > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the > [snip] >=20 > > I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I > > really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my = mail > > client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail!= ;-) >=20 > What e-mail client do you use? Evolution? No, mutt, with vim as mail composer. :) --UEgmpZn7Z/frN9Sq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (FreeBSD) iKYEARECAGYFAlM6+qZfFIAAAAAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3Bl bnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE3RkMwOEUxNUUwOUJEMjE0ODlFMjA1MDI5 Q0U3NURBQzBGNzY5RjgACgkQKc512sD3afh1tQCgg0CSs1GdUrEnWHFitbOGE2H7 CqIAnREy4VYmk+t/242aFzMeSP2/LK6h =sB6V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UEgmpZn7Z/frN9Sq-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 18:59:41 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 853301ED; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 18:59:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ob0-x232.google.com (mail-ob0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3199FD51; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 18:59:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ob0-f178.google.com with SMTP id wp18so11426289obc.37 for ; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 11:59:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=xwXraAotJCq8QoxZu0qjW8aCT6vU86yVCRGqhOag7To=; b=jcrCRFWZwQP4oMOG9NZeCT+AXMoObl8t3Ea3olE/sz68KzGo9sO/urwuG6yYRJ4IVJ Qf+w9yxqDVNpYekkgDyLT/PyuAyUcuPtPBVmOINdZdIxAQjABWZ8fvhTalb7CgNSp+m9 6xk7gQe17AnmTP9pmKORYXDk9HGFLubvdZeHZkQyeWJf52XDbGV1XG+t1/DCmpRPT4zS NcFa9tPs+CwXASps/uenhjay2E8vuQiCTSdD4n0HWVMSl8q1sPIsBapsNp6BwoFypafS jxAfCAUkWXX1srO+q5K+V9nSRjRv4llp5k/VdWpEgjNcOsrpaagPLpY9eN6LXwUCYjos vcwg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.195.11 with SMTP id ia11mr29683453obc.8.1396378780423; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 11:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.12.34 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 11:59:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 20:59:40 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Andreas Nilsson To: Matt Olander X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 19:04:04 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.17 Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , current@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 18:59:41 -0000 On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Matt Olander wrote: > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard > wrote: > > > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > > > >> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > >> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > >> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > >> server or embedded use. > >> > >> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > >> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > >> Linux world? > > > > The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if > it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or > Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April > fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would > simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. :-) > > > > I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the > fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the > fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the Jail > Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. > > > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There > never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose "the > power to serve" as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine > server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also > becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another > excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent developments > there. > > > > A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be "BSD on the desktop" (and > while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to > say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following > reasons: > > As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's > 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game. > > This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant > car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look > at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of > nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing > pretty well. > > I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete > in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc. > > In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k > visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and > clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me! > Seeing this I could not resist: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/which-operating-system > > Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P > Let them prosper! Seriously, though. There are shortcomings, sure. But I tend to prefer the rock solid feature rich base with a somewhat shaky desktop experience than the other alternatives. Sure I would like to see a FreeBSD pulseaudio compatible sound server. And perhaps a template library for pinout configs for snd-cards. And "native" flash, although I say "flash, no thank you" Perhaps companies such as Netflix could release FreeBSD clients ahead of linux clients ;) I can also say that I recently got a friend to migrate from linux on both his home server as well as his laptop. He is very happy with the change. Cheers Andreas > Cheers, > -matt > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 19:49:28 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE32155D; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 19:49:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-la0-x236.google.com (mail-la0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBBEA243; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 19:49:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-la0-f54.google.com with SMTP id mc6so7456462lab.13 for ; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 12:49:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=TFoRg3WXlswQfHXs31wbYETTr4hSnoiELFkWapSyaEI=; b=TaHSlYpuxnzBUitnmK9iEh6Ry2FmDXXErA4xtmcDE3zCRrkHZ8RpulMQt2Q3SXRrKu VbWH1cFu+epRCL7GJN758BqVbly+AbVRVtE1wKSKDEsCqAQPogQIaDjQEyP2i3u5TMFV 2yFK6S2sE1cYd2wslFRn8iWI53CkRSsL3MUQyAkdr53Hhgu1p3d1VWkO2khz3BX87IO/ fUVYjO/+VljknbmTYBNknZbmmzxIGxSaen4Mdxj83q7oSp7IhotWx9XRbD0hzkfQ9iu5 APVIFhs4poVDxDlKSUYwbG+m75gjSlsiC2o/xWbZI6UR/2LVNauuZlDPzq5cN6O6Y3q6 ymaw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.50.194 with SMTP id e2mr22953006lbo.4.1396381765377; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 12:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.67.80 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 12:49:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:49:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Brian Kim To: Andreas Nilsson X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 19:59:34 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.17 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Jordan Hubbard X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 19:49:28 -0000 Hi all, I have been a member of the FreeBSD hackers mailing list for about a year.5 now and I must say that I was looking forward to this year's 4/1 email. Last year, I didn't even realize that the discussion of promoting i386 as a tier 1 architecture was a joke until someone blatantly mentioned in... To address the actual content of this thread, personally, I absolutely love the FreeBSD os and the community that supports it. However, even as a third year computer engineering student, I still have not overcome the overhead that comes with becoming familiar with the UNIX environment. Of course, that is mostly attributed to my laziness and my unwillingness to sit through an entire reading of documentation... To share an observation, I am a teaching assistant for a freshman C programming class and I recently set up three FreeBSD servers, one for each section, where students could learn to develop C programs in an actual UNIX environment. Here is the lecture that I wrote up to help them learn the basics: http://vecr.ece.villanova.edu/bk/fc/labs/docs/ece1620-l2unix.pdf. I led the first section yesterday and I have to say that it was an utter disaster. Only about 1/8th of the class showed even an ounce of interest in this stuff (as it was something extra and not required for the course) and I really f'ed up by trying to teach them how to use vi... Long live the BSD community! On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Andreas Nilsson wrote: > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Matt Olander wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard > > wrote: > > > > > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler wrote: > > > > > >> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > > >> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the Linux > > >> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for > > >> server or embedded use. > > >> > > >> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I > > >> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the > > >> Linux world? > > > > > > The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if > > it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD (or > > Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running April > > fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes would > > simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one again. > :-) > > > > > > I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of the > > fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like the > > fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, the > Jail > > Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. > > > > > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There > > never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose "the > > power to serve" as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine > > server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's also > > becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is another > > excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent > developments > > there. > > > > > > A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be "BSD on the desktop" > (and > > while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch to > > say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the following > > reasons: > > > > As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's > > 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game. > > > > This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant > > car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look > > at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of > > nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing > > pretty well. > > > > I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete > > in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc. > > > > In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k > > visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and > > clearly using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me! > > > > Seeing this I could not resist: > http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/which-operating-system > > > > > > Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P > > > Let them prosper! > > Seriously, though. There are shortcomings, sure. But I tend to prefer the > rock solid feature rich base with a somewhat shaky desktop experience than > the other alternatives. > > Sure I would like to see a FreeBSD pulseaudio compatible sound server. And > perhaps a template library for pinout configs for snd-cards. And "native" > flash, although I say "flash, no thank you" > > Perhaps companies such as Netflix could release FreeBSD clients ahead of > linux clients ;) > > I can also say that I recently got a friend to migrate from linux on both > his home server as well as his laptop. He is very happy with the change. > > Cheers > Andreas > > > > > Cheers, > > -matt > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Best Wishes, Brian Kim From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 19:59:39 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAFA5B11; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 19:59:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from udns.ultimateDNS.NET (ultimatedns.net [209.180.214.225]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7670E314; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 19:59:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from udns.ultimateDNS.NET (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by udns.ultimateDNS.NET (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s31K2Q9C035445; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 13:02:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@bsdforge.com) Received: (from www@localhost) by udns.ultimateDNS.NET (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id s31K2JX6035431; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 13:02:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@bsdforge.com) Received: from unavailable02.ultimatedns.net ([209.180.214.228]) (UDNSMS authenticated user chrish) by ultimatedns.net with HTTP; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 13:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8958b27a5fb58409a5c738cbf7a4ef34.authenticated@ultimatedns.net> In-Reply-To: <09D177203C215546ACA94AF0459D4989EFF9DF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> References: <09D177203C215546ACA94AF0459D4989EFF9DF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 13:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market From: "Chris H" To: "Person, Roderick" User-Agent: UDNSMS/2.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 20:18:19 +0000 Cc: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" , "hackers@freebsd.org" , "current@freebsd.org" , Jordan Hubbard X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 19:59:39 -0000 > -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org] On >> Behalf Of Randi Harper >> >>You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds are going to step >> up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my >desktop! It's totally viable!" >> >>Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're masochistic. It's >> okay, we accept you here. But your individual >use case doesn't indicate a place in the >> market. Your basement isn't a market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. >> It's a >small company. Many companies combined create a market. > > Why aren't all the nerds and small businesses out there a market? I'm no marketing expert > or anything, but it would seem that there is some kind of market out there that isn't being > catered to. I may be a masochist, but I refuse to have to pay Apples prices for their > hardware. They just seem insane to me. If they ever decided to sell OS X for non-Apple > hardware I might use it. OK. Now that I opened my big fat mouth, and made the mistake of involving myself earlier in this post before finishing my first of coffee. I'm already committed, so here goes... Can we take a look at advocacy for a moment? What defines it exactly? Is there better advocacy than another? What's the best advocacy? Is it contributing more $$ to the foundation? Is it contributing lines of code to the project? Is it putting a textual, or graphical link "the Power to Serve" on your web page? Is it telling everyone you know about how great FreeBSD is? I don't know. But just the other day, as I struggled with the [apparent] direction(s) FreeBSD was taking in the past few months. I began to reflect on the ~25yrs. of working with the code, and then (*)BSD itself. I realized that I spent no less than 75% of my waking hours in front of the tty. Almost all of which, was in some way related to FreeBSD. Much of it, was dedicated to installs. I calculate to this day, I have performed some 36,000 installs. At least 28,000 still running. Then it occurred to me; if that isn't the BEST form of advocacy, I don't know what is. Really. Think about it. So say what you will. Condemn, or patronize the misfits of society, the geeks, or geeky people. But know this; if it weren't for them, FreeBSD wouldn't be but some pie-in-the-sky ideal/dream. In some far away thought, or dream. For the record; I /don't/ live in my basement. I /do/ take showers. I own my home outright (2nd one, for the record). What's more, my current one was a complete renovation, which I performed myself. Masochistic? Maybe, but somebody has to pay the price, so others can reap the luxury. No? --Chris out... > > And just for the record I've been using FreeBSD as an exclusive home desktop since 1999. > > At work now so however Outlook mangles this is my fault :) > > > > > > Rod Person > Programmer > (412)454-2616 > > Just because it can been done, does not mean it should be done. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 20:17:27 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 310B851A; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 20:17:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.waitman.net (mx.waitman.net [136.0.16.173]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0A376F; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 20:17:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mx.waitman.net (Postfix, from userid 2) id 99177463A4; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 05:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 70.90.171.37 by mx.waitman.net with HTTP; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 05:25:14 -0700 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 05:25:14 -0700 Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: "Waitman Gobble" To: "Andreas Nilsson" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.5.2 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 21:06:29 +0000 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Jordan Hubbard X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: uzimac@da3m0n8t3r.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 20:17:27 -0000 On Tue, April 1, 2014 11:59 am, Andreas Nilsson wrote: > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Matt Olander wrote: > > >> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Jordan Hubbard >> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:46 AM, Eitan Adler >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the >>>> desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the >>>> Linux >>>> desktop" and start to rip out the pieces of the OS not needed for >>>> server or embedded use. >>>> >>>> Some of you may point to PCBSD and say that we have a chance, but I >>>> must ask you: how does one flavor stand up to the thousands in the >>>> Linux world? >>>> >>> >>> The fact that this posting comes out on April 1st makes me wonder if >>> >> it's just an elaborate April Fool's joke, but then the notion of *BSD >> (or >> Linux, for that matter) on the Desktop is just another long-running >> April >> fool's joke, so I'm willing to postulate that two April Fools jokes >> would simply cancel each other out and make this posting a serious one >> again. :-) >>> >>> I'll choose to be serious and say what I'm about to say in spite of >>> the >> fact that I work for the primary sponsor of PC-BSD and actually like >> the fact that it has created some interesting technologies like PBIs, >> the Jail Warden, Life-preserver and a ZFS boot environment menu. >> >>> >>> There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There >>> >> never has been and there never will be. Why do you think we chose >> "the >> power to serve" as FreeBSD's first marketing slogan? It makes a fine >> server OS and it's easy to defend its role in the server room. It's >> also becoming easier to defend its role as an embedded OS, which is >> another excellent niche to pursue and I am happy to see all the recent >> developments there. >>> >>> A desktop? Unless you consider Mac OS X to be "BSD on the desktop" >>> (and >>> >> while they share some common technologies, it's increasingly a stretch >> to say that), it's just never going to happen for (at least) the >> following reasons: >> >> >> As you may imagine, I completely disagree! The Internet just had it's >> 20th birthday (it can't even drink yet!) and it's anyone's game. >> >> >> This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant >> car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look at >> what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of >> nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing >> pretty well. >> >> I bet there were a lot of people at Apple saying they couldn't compete >> in the music-player market, or the mobile-phone market, etc. >> >> In fact, if I look at the stats on freenas.org, we have about 350k >> visitors each month, with nearly 2% of them running FreeBSD and clearly >> using it to surf the internet. Sounds like a market to me! >> > > Seeing this I could not resist: > http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/which-operating-system > > > >> >> Long live the FreeBSD desktop, long live PC-BSD :P >> >> > Let them prosper! > > > Seriously, though. There are shortcomings, sure. But I tend to prefer the > rock solid feature rich base with a somewhat shaky desktop experience > than the other alternatives. > > Sure I would like to see a FreeBSD pulseaudio compatible sound server. > And > perhaps a template library for pinout configs for snd-cards. And "native" > flash, although I say "flash, no thank you" > > Perhaps companies such as Netflix could release FreeBSD clients ahead of > linux clients ;) > > I can also say that I recently got a friend to migrate from linux on both > his home server as well as his laptop. He is very happy with the change. > > > Cheers > Andreas > > > > >> Cheers, >> -matt >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> >> > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > re pulseaudio: I've had luck reading the raw PCM data from the /dev/dsp* devices, storing in postgres (bytea), then later playing back to /dev/dsp.. 'streaming' to another system (maybe pgsql as el intermedio?) would be pretty simple. In this scenario there is no Alsa requirement, which works for me :) -- Waitman Gobble San Jose California USA +1.510-830-7975 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 20:44:05 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E9F8F69; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 20:44:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ms-10.1blu.de (ms-10.1blu.de [178.254.4.101]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAC47A01; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 20:44:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [89.204.135.177] (helo=tiny-r255948) by ms-10.1blu.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WV4hH-0001sW-E1; Tue, 01 Apr 2014 21:50:11 +0200 Received: from tiny-r255948 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tiny-r255948 (8.14.7/8.14.3) with ESMTP id s31Jo9nn001403; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 21:50:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: (from guru@localhost) by tiny-r255948 (8.14.7/8.14.3/Submit) id s31Jo7V8001402; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 21:50:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) X-Authentication-Warning: tiny-r255948: guru set sender to guru@unixarea.de using -f Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 21:50:07 +0200 From: Matthias Apitz To: Lars Engels Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market Message-ID: <20140401195006.GA1368@tiny-r255948> References: <20140401094044.GX44074@e-new.0x20.net> <083e01cf4db9$f8f4e040$eadea0c0$@FreeBSD.org> <20140401174302.GU44074@e-new.0x20.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20140401174302.GU44074@e-new.0x20.net> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 10.0-CURRENT r235646 (i386) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Con-Id: 51246 X-Con-U: 0-guru X-Originating-IP: 89.204.135.177 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 21:21:45 +0000 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, dteske@FreeBSD.org, 'Jordan Hubbard' X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: Matthias Apitz List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 20:44:05 -0000 El día Tuesday, April 01, 2014 a las 07:43:02PM +0200, Lars Engels escribió: > > > > > That is why on this date I propose that we cease competing on the > > > > > desktop market. FreeBSD should declare 2014 to be "year of the > > [snip] > > > > > I'm a happy FreeBSD desktop user since 4.7. There are some edges, but I > > > really like that I can can create a desktop the way _I_ want it and my mail > > > client even allows me to break lines at 80 chars. Eat that, Apple Mail! ;-) > > > > What e-mail client do you use? Evolution? > > No, mutt, with vim as mail composer. :) +1 matthias (FreeBSD since 2.2.5 and sending this from an EeePC 900, netbook, UMTS connected, KDE4 desktop, sound, webcam, vim, mutt, sendmail, ...) -- Sent from my FreeBSD netbook Matthias Apitz, , http://www.unixarea.de/ f: +49-170-4527211 UNIX since V7 on PDP-11, UNIX on mainframe since ESER 1055 (IBM /370) UNIX on x86 since SVR4.2 UnixWare 2.1.2, FreeBSD since 2.2.5 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 1 22:09:17 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D7F4FA0; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:09:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from burnttofu.net (burnttofu.net [IPv6:2607:fc50:1:9d00::9977]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "burnttofu.net", Issuer "burnttofu.net" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C66D9210; Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:09:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sonicyouth.es.net (sonicyouth.es.net [IPv6:2001:400:14:1::117]) (authenticated bits=0) by burnttofu.net (8.14.8/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s31M9729061202 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 1 Apr 2014 18:09:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from michael@rancid.berkeley.edu) Message-ID: <533B3903.7030307@rancid.berkeley.edu> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 15:09:07 -0700 From: Michael Sinatra User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dteske@FreeBSD.org, "'Eitan Adler'" , hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market References: <082a01cf4db9$240d3e90$6c27bbb0$@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <082a01cf4db9$240d3e90$6c27bbb0$@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (burnttofu.net [IPv6:2607:fc50:1:9d00::9977]); Tue, 01 Apr 2014 18:09:09 -0400 (EDT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 22:09:17 -0000 On 04/01/2014 07:46, dteske@FreeBSD.org wrote: > Eitan, > > While I understand your frustration, VICOR is using FreeBSD as a Desktop since > FreeBSD 2.2. We don't use sound and we are fine relying on vesa. > > While I understand that the things you listed are actual short-comings for normal > Desktop users, I think it's the wrong decision to say that we should be backing > out *any* functionality that would make the Desktop any more difficult to > produce. > > As it stands, it would take me weeks just to count the number of workstations > that are running a GUI, rely on one of the existing video drivers (nv, radeon, > mach64, etc.) and use lots of Desktop ports. I have three FreeBSD desktops (one at work, one at home-office, and one for the usual messing around). They're all running 9.2, with Windows for Unix(TM)...uh, I mean KDE v4.12.3 as the GUI. Yes, I actually like KDE. I also have a machine at home running Debian Wheezy, also with KDE, and I have 2-3 mac devices that actually run MacOS (I have a few mac minis that run Free- and OpenBSD). The minis work exceptionally well as FreeBSD workstations. Each of the FreeBSD systems I have is my go-to workstation--it's where I do most of my work. Only if I can't do something (or don't want to run it on FreeBSD--e.g. Flash), do I use the Mac. The Debian box I just use for messing around--nothing serious. My home FreeBSD workstation has perfect sound, excellent graphics (nvidia), and I can even watch a lot of video using Firefox, since video is increasingly becoming HTML5-based. For me it "just works." The whole combination that makes up my environment can be challenging to keep up-to-date, but it's getting a lot easier with pkgng and portmaster. I would hate to see this stuff, which I find very useful, and helps me both at work and home, to be "ripped out" of the OS. I have been using FreeBSD on the desktop since 1997, when I had two workstations on my desk (FreeBSD and RedHat) and I let them duke it out to see who would win. FreeBSD won then, and even though I continue to keep a Linux desktop around for fun, FreeBSD still wins on the basis of usability, stability, security, etc. michael PS. My current KDE wallpaper for my work office machine is the Windows XP green hillside with blue sky background. It's giving people fits here. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 09:22:54 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 927D9EB7; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 09:22:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from theravensnest.org (theraven.freebsd.your.org [216.14.102.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "theravensnest.org", Issuer "theravensnest.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A63BFA0; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 09:22:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (cpc14-cmbg15-2-0-cust307.5-4.cable.virginm.net [82.26.1.52]) (authenticated bits=0) by theravensnest.org (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s329Mcn2054303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 2 Apr 2014 09:22:40 GMT (envelope-from theraven@FreeBSD.org) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: David Chisnall In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 10:22:32 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140401094044.GX44074@e-new.0x20.net> <083e01cf4db9$f8f4e040$eadea0c0$@FreeBSD.org> <20140401174302.GU44074@e-new.0x20.net> <20140401195006.GA1368@tiny-r255948> To: Kevin Oberman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 11:26:44 +0000 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Matthias Apitz , hackers@freebsd.org, dteske@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard , "current@freebsd.org" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 09:22:54 -0000 On 1 Apr 2014, at 23:10, Kevin Oberman wrote: > Audio output is pretty system dependent, but I had little problem = getting > my audio to auto-switch to headphones when I plugged them in. The = setup is > a bit ugly,but I only had to check the available PINs (ugly, ugly) and = set > up stuff once. It just works. If you want my example set-up, I can = post it > somewhere or you can look in the archives for it as I have posted it = in the > past. It would be good to have this in the handbook (and to see what we can do = to improve it). FreeBSD audio typically works out of the box and it's = great when it does[1], but it can be underdocumented black magic to make = it work when it doesn't. For example, I believe it's possible to tell = pcm that when it receives a stereo stream it should redirect the left = channel to the front and rear left, and the right channel to the front = and rear right, but I haven't yet worked out how to do this - I'd have = thought it was the kind of default that we'd want to have. The use case that PulseAudio was [over]designed to fix was plugging in = USB headphones (or connecting a Bluetooth headset) and having existing = audio streams redirected there. This should be possible with the = existing sound stack, but there are some bits of plumbing missing. We = already do in-kernel mixing and resampling, which are the hard bits. = Duplicating streams and redirecting them are trivial by comparison. David [1] Although I had a slightly embarrassing moment when I spent an hour = hunting for docs to tell me how to configure my media centre box do 5.1 = output and then decided to just try it and found it worked out of the = box.= From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 11:34:16 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61EB5967; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 11:34:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [217.69.76.211]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5FB8159; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 11:34:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.0x20.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 108BC6A675D; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:34:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s32BYDGQ068968; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:34:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: (from lars@localhost) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id s32BYD0S068029; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:34:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:34:13 +0200 From: Lars Engels To: David Chisnall Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market Message-ID: <20140402113413.GC44074@e-new.0x20.net> References: <20140401094044.GX44074@e-new.0x20.net> <083e01cf4db9$f8f4e040$eadea0c0$@FreeBSD.org> <20140401174302.GU44074@e-new.0x20.net> <20140401195006.GA1368@tiny-r255948> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jrSbkLCAP5lJDiYt" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 7.4 X-Operation-System: FreeBSD 8.4-RELEASE-p4 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 11:52:44 +0000 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "current@freebsd.org" , Matthias Apitz , Kevin Oberman , hackers@freebsd.org, dteske@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 11:34:16 -0000 --jrSbkLCAP5lJDiYt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 10:22:32AM +0100, David Chisnall wrote: > On 1 Apr 2014, at 23:10, Kevin Oberman wrote: >=20 > > Audio output is pretty system dependent, but I had little problem getti= ng > > my audio to auto-switch to headphones when I plugged them in. The setup= is > > a bit ugly,but I only had to check the available PINs (ugly, ugly) and = set > > up stuff once. It just works. If you want my example set-up, I can post= it > > somewhere or you can look in the archives for it as I have posted it in= the > > past. >=20 > It would be good to have this in the handbook (and to see what we can > do to improve it). FreeBSD audio typically works out of the box and > it's great when it does[1], but it can be underdocumented black magic > to make it work when it doesn't. For example, I believe it's possible > to tell pcm that when it receives a stereo stream it should redirect > the left channel to the front and rear left, and the right channel to > the front and rear right, but I haven't yet worked out how to do this > - I'd have thought it was the kind of default that we'd want to have. >=20 > The use case that PulseAudio was [over]designed to fix was plugging in > USB headphones (or connecting a Bluetooth headset) and having existing > audio streams redirected there. This should be possible with the > existing sound stack, but there are some bits of plumbing missing. We > already do in-kernel mixing and resampling, which are the hard bits. > Duplicating streams and redirecting them are trivial by comparison. >=20 > David >=20 > [1] Although I had a slightly embarrassing moment when I spent an hour > hunting for docs to tell me how to configure my media centre box do > 5.1 output and then decided to just try it and found it worked out of > the box. AFAIK we already can configure HDA's sound output and input in many ways using sysctl(8). What's still missing is a user-friendly way to configure sound. There are some things that can be handled in one little program / script / TUI / GUI / CLI: - Default sound unit (hw.snd.default_unit) - Use the last inserted sound device as default? (hw.snd.default_auto)=20 - PIN Routing (dev.hdaa.%d.config) - Mixer settings Putting it all together in something called sndcontrol should not be too hard. It just takes someone(TM) to do it --jrSbkLCAP5lJDiYt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (FreeBSD) iKYEARECAGYFAlM79bVfFIAAAAAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3Bl bnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE3RkMwOEUxNUUwOUJEMjE0ODlFMjA1MDI5 Q0U3NURBQzBGNzY5RjgACgkQKc512sD3afj83QCff6LSbQZdtxRzfGZFqMdgWZw3 0AgAnjzXM5yLM8NaQm13/hqalZeengsY =2EIo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jrSbkLCAP5lJDiYt-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 12:06:55 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAB5DA7A; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 12:06:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.iXsystems.com (newknight.ixsystems.com [206.40.55.70]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A80B3817; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 12:06:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (mail.ixsystems.com [10.2.55.1]) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C756872D14; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 05:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.iXsystems.com ([10.2.55.1]) by localhost (mail.ixsystems.com [10.2.55.1]) (maiad, port 10024) with ESMTP id 81223-08; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 05:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.0.6] (unknown [10.8.0.6]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A49972D10; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 05:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Jordan Hubbard In-Reply-To: <09D177203C215546ACA94AF0459D4989EFF9DF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 17:06:35 +0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <09D177203C215546ACA94AF0459D4989EFF9DF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> To: "Person, Roderick" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Cc: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" , "hackers@freebsd.org" , "current@freebsd.org" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 12:06:55 -0000 On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:33 PM, Person, Roderick wrote: > Why aren't all the nerds and small businesses out there a market? =20 Too few of you to justify the capital outlay. Now, if we were talking = about a $1500 watch that was very nerdy and appealed to the inner James = Bond in lots of non-nerds, the margins might just justify it. If Apple = hardware is too expensive for you, there is always Windows and a cheap = PC clone. Between those two poles, the entirety of the desktop market = is pretty much spoken for. I get that there are some (mostly on these = mailing lists) who don=92t want either, but religious / personal = preferences to the contrary don=92t create markets until there are at = least a few million of you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 11:55:23 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A2573CD; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 11:55:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.iXsystems.com (newknight.ixsystems.com [206.40.55.70]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02B3E600; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 11:55:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (mail.ixsystems.com [10.2.55.1]) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D4372B9E; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 04:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.iXsystems.com ([10.2.55.1]) by localhost (mail.ixsystems.com [10.2.55.1]) (maiad, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78109-05; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 04:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.0.6] (unknown [10.8.0.6]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA3C872B90; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 04:55:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ixsystems.com; s=newknight0; t=1396439721; bh=zFbDG7tnTuJmyhCM1ccZz3i5h+4B8rt+4VfvzZe7KjA=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=vYiLASOHcsCSObpcIZaWpQhS+fGZQVIVo4X+Quyg7Tv/PaXkShytPQyIZ6sSgW8xI pkJzSDp0fTZGBcSGM66UpVjkUeU+eYlHq6ZDDFdBc3M3tOT+Jp1RsKauoqM1QOmvZm Fwsd4hXDLQekHTbdiSfmWHbe9sv51ljns/pb5p2I= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Jordan Hubbard In-Reply-To: <84CEE725-93E4-40BC-8092-5768E9DB47E6@netgate.com> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:54:59 +0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1396353429.56465.7.camel@powernoodle.corp.yahoo.com> <84CEE725-93E4-40BC-8092-5768E9DB47E6@netgate.com> To: Jim Thompson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 12:07:41 +0000 Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, Sean Bruno , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 11:55:23 -0000 On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:12 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: > I have Macs at work (typing on one now), and a mac at home. I like = them. > [ =85 ] > It=92s just like being back in the 80s, when Unix had a desktop = market, only much, much faster. Worry not, there=92s a product just for you now! = http://www.macstories.net/mac/cathode-is-a-vintage-terminal-for-os-x/ Of course I have a copy. I couldn=92t resist buying it. - Jordan From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 12:24:57 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D42B9141; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 12:24:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.iXsystems.com (newknight.ixsystems.com [206.40.55.70]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A705B9FC; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 12:24:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (mail.ixsystems.com [10.2.55.1]) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE8172FEB; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 05:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.iXsystems.com ([10.2.55.1]) by localhost (mail.ixsystems.com [10.2.55.1]) (maiad, port 10024) with ESMTP id 81635-03; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 05:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.8.0.6] (unknown [10.8.0.6]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4057972FDA; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 05:24:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ixsystems.com; s=newknight0; t=1396441482; bh=PMYtpkl2xekWGOoOA+i+4RlaQq+PZYSlQWYTkJ1cFiQ=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=HCcgtPb04uLq4WrZ3EMVy6pn1yBnyVft9AqQANRxZIsOvEyVDmP2Y5/FoX1G7CEyR Kti+y1BhPH7m87CTHKmGXk4ptySIZ6+G+VGby4KSBdWxd4AbuIuylPfyfvcZ7X4Bkn G8/1GDkEGH1EfIljboKWzB0V4qRFqE2dxmKokVZg= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Jordan Hubbard In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 17:24:28 +0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7217E584-D21A-4C50-96EB-ED280575BFFD@ixsystems.com> References: To: Matt Olander X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 12:24:58 -0000 On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:11 PM, Matt Olander wrote: > This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant > car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look > at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of > nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing > pretty well. I think you=92re kind of making my point for me, Matt. :-) Tesla benefitted entirely from deep pockets on the part of its = investors. Over $160M went into starting the company, of which $70M = came from the personal checking account of Elon Musk, the current = visionary and CEO, and to quote the wikipedia page: "Tesla Motors is a = public company that trades on the NASDAQ stock exchange under the symbol = TSLA.[5] In the first quarter of 2013, Tesla posted profits for the = first time in its ten year history.=94 Yep, in other words, Tesla has been losing money for over 10 years and = only just started turning a profit, after raising a =93mere" $187M in = investment and $485M in loans from the US DOE. Your tax dollars at = work! On top of all that Tesla has only managed to make money at all = by focusing exclusively the highest end of the luxury car market, where = profit margins are also the highest (the first car, the roadster, would = set you back $110,000). Getting back to computer operating systems, it would make most readers = of these lists choke on their Doritos to know how much Apple had to = invest in Mac OS X before it became a viable desktop operating system = and of course you=92ve already seen folks screaming about how Apple gear = is too expensive and they=92ll never buy it. You just don=92t get a consumer-grade desktop Unix OS, or a practical = all-electric sedan, without serious monetary investment and a luxury = marquee to match, assuming you=92d like to actually make any of that = money *back*. So, back to BSD on the desktop. Anyone got a spare $200M they=92d like = to just throw away? That=92s what it=92s going to take! :) Don=92t believe me? Go ask someone who knows first-hand then. Ask Mark = Shuttleworth: = http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/why-ubuntus-creator-= still-invests-his-fortune-in-an-unprofitable-company/ :-) - Jordan From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 13:34:39 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98FFFAAA; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:34:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de (outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de [130.133.4.66]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F1FAF3; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:34:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de ([130.133.4.69]) by outpost.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.82) with esmtp (envelope-from ) id <1WVLJL-000hAN-Rf>; Wed, 02 Apr 2014 15:34:35 +0200 Received: from g225032232.adsl.alicedsl.de ([92.225.32.232] helo=thor.walstatt.dyndns.org) by inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.82) with esmtpsa (envelope-from ) id <1WVLJL-001hbk-MQ>; Wed, 02 Apr 2014 15:34:35 +0200 Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:34:34 +0200 From: "O. Hartmann" To: Kevin Oberman Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market Message-ID: <20140402153434.1f55f2f3.ohartman@zedat.fu-berlin.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20140401094044.GX44074@e-new.0x20.net> <083e01cf4db9$f8f4e040$eadea0c0$@FreeBSD.org> <20140401174302.GU44074@e-new.0x20.net> <20140401195006.GA1368@tiny-r255948> Organization: FU Berlin X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.3 (GTK+ 2.24.22; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.0) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Sig_/28E/=qeD+dDec4IhSbOI/zy"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Originating-IP: 92.225.32.232 X-ZEDAT-Hint: A X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 13:47:16 +0000 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Matthias Apitz , hackers@freebsd.org, dteske@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard , "current@freebsd.org" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 13:34:39 -0000 --Sig_/28E/=qeD+dDec4IhSbOI/zy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:10:22 -0700 Kevin Oberman wrote: > > > No, mutt, with vim as mail composer. :) > > > > +1 > > > > matthias > > > > (FreeBSD since 2.2.5 and sending this from an EeePC 900, > > netbook, UMTS connected, KDE4 desktop, sound, webcam, vim, mutt, > > sendmail, ...) > > >=20 > FreeBSD desktop since 3.3 (makes me a newbie!)=20 FreeBSD server and desktop since 2.0 (replaced Ultrix 4.3 system). Does it = makes me an "oldie"?=20 I'm stuck since with FreeBSD on private systems and a couple of years ago, = I had no problems even run servers based on FreeBSD for my department. I dislike this unspecific terminus "desktop", since people seem to associate entertainment systems with neat graphics, mouse and other interesting "huma= n" stuff (even audio). On the other hand, "server" seems hardcoded to unfancy 19inch= rack-based plastic-metal-based clumsy and noisy high-performance systems stored in a d= ark air-conditioned cellar.=20 But what is with the old-fashioned terminus "workstation"? In a more scient= ific environment, systems with the performance needs of a "server" but with the = exterior habitus of a "desktop" were very often called "workstation". Nowadays, we run a single remaining FreeBSD server and I kept my "desktop" = system also working on FreeBSD (11.0, recent hardware, by the way). We had to change th= e other "desktops" (I prefer workstation) towards Linux due to the need of OpenCL i= n combination with some expensive TESLA boards for numerical modelling and datellite imag= e processing. The software we used was mostly "home-brewn" so we didn't rely on commercia= l Linux-only stuff and it would have been an easy task to run the software also on FreeB= SD based workstations - if the GPU could be used.=20 Even the SoC platforms come with OpenCL support (also for the GPU) these da= ys and i do not see anything useful on FreeBSD (except POCL for CPU usage, but no GPU). My contribution to 1st of April ... Oliver=20 --Sig_/28E/=qeD+dDec4IhSbOI/zy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTPBHrAAoJEOgBcD7A/5N8JW4IALJvf7bCD64yQzibnA1A75er G3+b2tISfs/URMm3sZcQRGwf4gd9XW8hAbHITV4LmMPf/LmEpUj5mLJIK0jq3IUi XqyuKo++M0le3Sw9jxgv+Eaq/b7Vw+vlQH4a7PW3as1R/YDoqRJacpRIvLFiIDEU m7qV1zDJGMAygl6Tk5pfAEFQOIAtCOE+PM4GoF+UxYSJYvRlygJNUfGe+PB5TLMj aI9IRBc3OpXzLNBQCEqoumShUB5Il/xsPSelIW78JLqdT0F0aCsYT2f1DeI8Ma2i mBv4EKcqhgS574F5tscwbKA8THtRRzaCPjPuePuwrPxSRk/N4w7HoYm0pQu3vcs= =Zjrs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/28E/=qeD+dDec4IhSbOI/zy-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 15:56:28 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 402F7C53 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:56:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.mustanglist.com (mail3.mustanglist.com [50.16.231.103]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0304E23E for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:56:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.mustanglist.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.mustanglist.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 396D28160 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 10:56:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail3.mustanglist.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.mustanglist.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B0E8164 for ; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 10:56:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Maria Ramirez X-Mailer: MustangList [msg-1396454187.1501 en-mail3] X-RPTags: List Type Content X-MLlistcampaign: 575-111572 X-ML-Message-ID: <> X-ML-Message-Source: <> X-ML-Message-Trk: <> Subject: Digital Downloads for Nonprofits, Schools, Ministries & Churches To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20140402155627.26B0E8164@mail3.mustanglist.com> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 10:56:27 -0500 (CDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.17 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: Maria Ramirez List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 15:56:28 -0000 Dear Nonprofit Leader...National Development Institute would like to thank you for your years of service to the Nonprofit, Education, Ministry & Church Sectors! [1]Visit Here for Complimentary Access to NDI's Digital Download Library We believe that when your organization invests in civil society a child's health, a student's dream or a family's future is made secure. As a small token of our gratitude we're opening NDI's expanded Nonprofit Digital Download Library for your use for the next 24hrs. (We're pleased to announce for those executives who have used the library in the past that your online experience has been improved.) National Development Institute is a 501c3 nonprofit agency that nurtures and leverages philanthropy by supplying funders and organizations the capacity building research and education they require to advance their mission. Please feel free to call (800) 257-6670 to reach an NDI Team Member with any questions you may have. Thank you and have a great day. Maria Ramirez National Development Institute To stop receiving messages from the National Development Institute, click [2]here. To pass a copy of this message on to a friend, click [3]here. This email was sent to you by: National Development Institute 201 East Main Street Lexington SC 29072 [msg-1396454187.1501 en-mail3] References Visible links 1. http://r.mustanglist.com/redir.php/b/VEV3TDU3NS0xMTE1NzItMzE3NTc0MC0zNjU0ODYwMg~~/ 2. http://www.mustanglist.com/us.php/msg/1396454187.1501/en/mail3 3. http://www.mustanglist.com/pio.php/msg/1396454187.1501/en/mail3 Hidden links: 4. http://www.mustanglist.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 2 16:47:39 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A1BCC2C; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:47:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02359A3B; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:47:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id kx10so447359pab.33 for ; Wed, 02 Apr 2014 09:47:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iEXziXUEZMKsPv/XzNeULF+VrT1Zyqffc6u6rTniTXA=; b=DDBF5bnh2213xNAjeGdRnzfpjMbFO/hEWIUI8cjmRvHvf31R/jhjLC++WF9miYD95x biFF7wu6kHhDN+gk7cdAEu1F961FCAUz3Eux0rBCJemcUvp3InDVXxT5DmqZfuxJQoUi 7ljgpegCz6rodAoW7Jop9I0dmZN+bNwJH1Pbh9WfTG8zdf4WSLP6FFtN7KUw35h9KAqB iPbyTzw9/8NRZEMNkQoTrzUBj2D2TNH7jlNjV1RMGoVt+lVMfs9VOkPoU5/+/sVvLIcB hnsPD+CC+bR/qaCdk1rdxeW5CV3yp/Qdi6fW2Crmgub3+Rsez8YJ2Teqr5VQcbHO/Lt6 hpeg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.150.69 with SMTP id ug5mr1165840pab.55.1396457258612; Wed, 02 Apr 2014 09:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Sender: mattjeet@gmail.com Received: by 10.70.132.228 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 09:47:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7217E584-D21A-4C50-96EB-ED280575BFFD@ixsystems.com> References: <7217E584-D21A-4C50-96EB-ED280575BFFD@ixsystems.com> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 09:47:38 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: YS_SUJZF2V3aenikv2KvjcRXAIo Message-ID: Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Matt Olander To: Jordan Hubbard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: matt@ixsystems.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:47:39 -0000 On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:24 AM, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:11 PM, Matt Olander wrote: > >> This is like trying to predict automobile technology and dominant >> car-makers by 1905. There's always room for competition. Take a look >> at what's happening right now in the auto-industry. Tesla came out of >> nowhere 125 years after the invention of the automobile and is doing >> pretty well. > > I think you're kind of making my point for me, Matt. :-) > > Tesla benefitted entirely from deep pockets on the part of its investors.= Over $160M went into starting the company, of which $70M came from the pe= rsonal checking account of Elon Musk, the current visionary and CEO, and to= quote the wikipedia page: "Tesla Motors is a public company that trades o= n the NASDAQ stock exchange under the symbol TSLA.[5] In the first quarter = of 2013, Tesla posted profits for the first time in its ten year history." > > Yep, in other words, Tesla has been losing money for over 10 years and on= ly just started turning a profit, after raising a "mere" $187M in investmen= t and $485M in loans from the US DOE. Your tax dollars at work! On top o= f all that Tesla has only managed to make money at all by focusing exclusiv= ely the highest end of the luxury car market, where profit margins are also= the highest (the first car, the roadster, would set you back $110,000). > > Getting back to computer operating systems, it would make most readers of= these lists choke on their Doritos to know how much Apple had to invest in= Mac OS X before it became a viable desktop operating system and of course = you've already seen folks screaming about how Apple gear is too expensive a= nd they'll never buy it. > > You just don't get a consumer-grade desktop Unix OS, or a practical all-e= lectric sedan, without serious monetary investment and a luxury marquee to = match, assuming you'd like to actually make any of that money *back*. > > So, back to BSD on the desktop. Anyone got a spare $200M they'd like to= just throw away? That's what it's going to take! :) > > Don't believe me? Go ask someone who knows first-hand then. Ask Mark Sh= uttleworth: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/why-ubun= tus-creator-still-invests-his-fortune-in-an-unprofitable-company/ > Yeah, no doubt it will cost a bit of money to compete on that level. However, have you ever heard the phrase pioneers suffer where settlers prosper? Meaning it may (or may not!) take significantly less to compete once a lot of the harder problems are solved. If we take the fact that PCs are on the decline but device adoption is on the rise, perhaps we could focus on an Android competitor (*cough* Cyb0rg *cough). Wouldn't it be possible to run Android apps on *BSD via a java vm? I will get you an Ubuntu phone for Christmas and we can try it :P -matt P.S., I do not have 200 million but I'm good for 10k :P From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 3 02:15:16 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2637FF2E; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 02:15:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.nsu.ru (mx.nsu.ru [84.237.50.39]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C98A942; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 02:15:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from regency.nsu.ru ([193.124.210.26]) by mx.nsu.ru with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WVXBE-0006t6-LG; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 09:15:06 +0700 Received: from regency.nsu.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by regency.nsu.ru (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id s332EOH2059153; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 09:14:34 +0700 (NOVT) (envelope-from danfe@regency.nsu.ru) Received: (from danfe@localhost) by regency.nsu.ru (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id s332EHg5059078; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 09:14:17 +0700 (NOVT) (envelope-from danfe) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 09:14:17 +0700 From: Alexey Dokuchaev To: Kevin Oberman Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market Message-ID: <20140403021417.GA50938@regency.nsu.ru> References: <20140401094044.GX44074@e-new.0x20.net> <083e01cf4db9$f8f4e040$eadea0c0$@FreeBSD.org> <20140401174302.GU44074@e-new.0x20.net> <20140401195006.GA1368@tiny-r255948> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-KLMS-Rule-ID: 1 X-KLMS-Message-Action: clean X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Lua-Profiles: 59167 [Apr 03 2014] X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Version: 5.3.6 X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Envelope-From: danfe@regency.nsu.ru X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Rate: 0 X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Status: not_detected X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Method: none X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Moebius-Timestamps: 2856097, 2856303, 0 X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Interceptor-Info: scan successful X-KLMS-AntiVirus: Kaspersky Security 8.0 for Linux Mail Server 8.0.0.455, not checked X-KLMS-AntiVirus-Status: NotChecked: not checked, skipped X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:09:14 +0000 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Matthias Apitz , hackers@freebsd.org, dteske@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard , "current@freebsd.org" X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 02:15:16 -0000 On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 03:10:22PM -0700, Kevin Oberman wrote: > FreeBSD desktop since 3.3 (makes me a newbie!) I really dislike pulseaudio > and have managed to live without it. Firefox works fine without it. > Unfortunately they dropped OSS support a while go, so I now must use alsa, > but it works well and without the pain of dealing with pulseaudio, a > solution in search of a problem it I ever saw one. PA should just die, of course, just like that kid's other "products". OSS is so nice; it supports all those nifty features like per-application mixing and stuff, we have a very strong implementation of it (kudos to ariff@, let me remind us all: http://people.freebsd.org/~ariff/SOUND_4.TXT.html). Giving Firerox back its OSS support is my on TODO list, unfortunately I do not have any idea when (or if) I can look at it, but that would be a nice step in dealsificaion of our Ports Collection. OSS was, and should remain, the standard Unixish sound system API. > Audio output is pretty system dependent, but I had little problem getting > my audio to auto-switch to headphones when I plugged them in. The setup is > a bit ugly,but I only had to check the available PINs (ugly, ugly) and set > up stuff once. It just works. Not always, unfortunately. I also had a working pin override configuration in /boot/loader.conf, but after r236750 (major snd_hda driver rewrite) it stopped working. I've reported it and tried to get some support from mav@ but he never replied. Since then, I have to carry pre-r236750 version of snd_hda(4) to have working sound. > Power is an issue and I find the current defaults suck. Read mav's article > on the subject on the wiki. >From reading that article, I've only added hw.pci.do_power_nodriver="3" and hw.pci.do_power_resume="0" to /boot/loader.conf. More aggressive settings, like cx_lowest="C2", made my laptop very sluggish and unpleasant to operate; powerd(8) behaves sanely with no tuning, so I wouldn't say that our current defaults suck. The reason why we're behind on the "green" lane is because we generally do not pay much attention when it comes to power-saving during development of FreeBSD. (I'd like to be proven wrong.) ./danfe From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 3 03:42:31 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6550B9C; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 03:42:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx.nsu.ru (mx.nsu.ru [84.237.50.39]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4950974; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 03:42:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from regency.nsu.ru ([193.124.210.26]) by mx.nsu.ru with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WVYXh-000155-Ep; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 10:42:22 +0700 Received: from regency.nsu.ru (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by regency.nsu.ru (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id s333fuSH085569; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 10:42:06 +0700 (NOVT) (envelope-from danfe@regency.nsu.ru) Received: (from danfe@localhost) by regency.nsu.ru (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id s333fpC9085547; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 10:41:51 +0700 (NOVT) (envelope-from danfe) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 10:41:50 +0700 From: Alexey Dokuchaev To: David Chisnall Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market Message-ID: <20140403034150.GA78653@regency.nsu.ru> References: <3F7430D7-3C0F-43E1-8EBD-8AA4F701497C@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F7430D7-3C0F-43E1-8EBD-8AA4F701497C@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-KLMS-Rule-ID: 1 X-KLMS-Message-Action: clean X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Lua-Profiles: 59168 [Apr 03 2014] X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Version: 5.3.6 X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Envelope-From: danfe@regency.nsu.ru X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Rate: 0 X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Status: not_detected X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Method: none X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Moebius-Timestamps: 2857058, 2857087, 0 X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Interceptor-Info: scan successful X-KLMS-AntiVirus: Kaspersky Security 8.0 for Linux Mail Server 8.0.0.455, not checked X-KLMS-AntiVirus-Status: NotChecked: not checked, skipped X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:15:10 +0000 Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org, Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 03:42:31 -0000 On Tue, Apr 01, 2014 at 08:38:28AM +0100, David Chisnall wrote: > On 1 Apr 2014, at 08:11, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > 1. Power. As you point out, being truly power efficient is a complete > > top-to-bottom engineering effort and it takes a lot more than just trying > > to idle the processor whenever possible to achieve that. You need to > > optimize all of the hot-spot routines in the system for power efficiency > > (which actually involves a fair amount of micro architecture knowledge), > > you need a kernel scheduler that is power management aware, you need a > > process management system that runs as few things as possible and knows > > how to schedule things during package wake-up intervals, you need timers > > to be coalesced at the level where applications consume them, the list > > just goes on and on. It's a lot of engineering work, and to drive that > > work you also need a lot of telemetry data and people with big sticks > > running around hitting people who write power-inefficient code. FreeBSD > > has neither. Thanks Jordan, this is an excellent elaboration on why exactly we're behind on the "green" lane, and on power-neglective FreeBSD development overall. > Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the > Core Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important goal, > in particular for mobile/embedded scenarios. We're currently coordinating > potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals from people > interested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in either category > then please drop either me, core, or the Foundation an email. > > Some things have already seen progress, for example Davide's calloutng work > includes timer coalescing, but there are still a lot of, uh, opportunities > for improvement. The Symbian EKA2 book has some very interesting detail on > their power management infrastructure, which would be worth looking at for > anyone interested in working on this, and I believe your former employer > had some expertise in this area. Now that's something I'm glad to hear. It would be cool if FreeBSD gained some power-efficient software that run smoothly together with hardware (and laptops in particular) developed by Jordan's former employer. ;-) > For example, currently hald wakes up every 30 seconds and polls the optical > drive if you have one. Why? Because there's no devd event when a CD is > inserted, so the only way for it to get these notifications is polling. I'm surprised to find out that our devd(8) does not emit some event on CD insertion. On the other, if by "hald" you mean the one installed by the `sysutils/hal' port, I've personally never run it, and do not recommend it to anyone. ./danfe From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 4 10:53:45 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F312760 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:53:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe2d:43:76:96:30:96]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795BDCC8 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:53:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta20.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.87]) by qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id lmmc1n0021smiN4A9mtkgk; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 10:53:44 +0000 Received: from [21.61.141.242] ([66.87.93.242]) by omta20.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id lmtS1n0035Dl0xe8gmtU7e; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 10:53:42 +0000 From: Allen To: Randi Harper , Jordan Hubbard Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 06:53:28 -0400 Message-ID: <1452c5f24a0.277d.49425171f56f22d4251074c8012c3090@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 AquaMail/1.3.8 (build: 2100414) Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1396608824; bh=8qV4I7hxVeP5TrKO/haSkTagswxMsC5+L/4HZCva/QE=; h=Received:Received:From:To:Date:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=U9WM4NV12jGyApleJzGnB9QBUCOHolV7FbTNQJ6OhBQO/Eu2Jy6E08+9utQGNdYHf tDI93zw2HOO3guLAre+l6+3CULHQLO9ygcb7n+l2MbQHYlpVqAZKzGpzTGgW/kg21n YjaGzz+62bIZY9r+Z1qU+Xqu0K8sDqDhv0LVPGAAD+468rSFxWYeBzwTXrwslSxCVl 6M7snLkoUARvFEmwSTPom/T+YNPVbNBeMvgX3HFKkY6eKyiV677IojfkXEUtQQvesQ 7RH0oPbKGw2Bng+ocx+rTLzsbbsBJKy4B16jmNIMKC4/uOvFE1a2YuauFjVTwXWCZ8 +zlLHx8XCq6Tw== Cc: "FreeBSD, Advocacy" , hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 10:53:45 -0000 Hi, before I go any farther, I just want to point out that I currently can only really send emails from my phone because Comcast are jerks. So I'm Hoping that basically this email will be displayed properly. I'm using AquaMail, which seems to work pretty well but I haven't been active on these lists all that often because of that. > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There never > > has been and there never will be. Oh come on now, it depends on a couple of things, and I wouldn't go that far. I've got a lot of family members that know next to nothing about computers, and I got tired of fixing them all the time. Just as an example, my cousin basically destroyed his parents computer and got a job, and bought himself a brand new computer, and had me set it up. This was a while back and his Windows XP Home computer took all of one week too have issues. I updated Windows and saw he had never tried. I installed Spybot and AVG and updated them and ran them. When I got back home, I checked them and they had found over 12,000 infections! Everything from trojans and back doors, to those fake security centers. He is an idiot when it comes to this stuff and I don't mind saying so. The weird thing was that all he did on this computer, was go online with a web browser, IM with friend's, and listen to music and download all types of things. He did do some homework in between porn marathons too. My point for all this is that I eventually did something that worked; I installed Linux on his computer, made a script to keep it updated, and basically, I had KDE installed, Gnome, and a few others, and by setting up KDE and putting Web browser short cuts on the desktop, a shortcut to some IM clients, an XMMS shortcut, and a few others so that he could do what he was doing. I set up some Office suites as well, and this worked. His machine stayed up to date without any issues, and he no longer had any problems. > You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the nerds are > going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop! It's totally > viable!" Like I said, I wouldn't go that far; Those of us on this list probably aren't fans of Windows, and probably only use it when required, but in the example I gave above, I found that people who know literally nothing about computers in general, do really well with Linux and BSD as long as I took the time to set up the desktop for them and installed all the stuff they needed and placed the shortcuts on the desktop. It worked really well. Even my Mom who knows nothing about computers, can sit down and use Linux or BSD without any trouble, as long as the desktop is set up properly. > Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're > masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use case > doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a market. It's > a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a small company. Many > companies combined create a market. > Back to sleep. Now see, that has a point, but I do personally think that Unix not only does fine on the desktop, but depending on which version, some versions are more suited to being used as a desktop than others; PC-BSD for example, along with SUSE and even Mandriva, all work well for this. -Allen Sent with AquaMail for Android http://www.aqua-mail.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 4 15:18:10 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 927C9244; Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:18:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-yk0-x231.google.com (mail-yk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30CD2B8E; Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:18:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-yk0-f177.google.com with SMTP id q200so3030077ykb.36 for ; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 08:18:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=fVNVdDRY77+HPiunN/FjRD+jFdTn0EQG27xJbaZN1nk=; b=WoYay6/u4eHfOaPfUuGjoIiWwx6fyG59nI7+3CbOLT2P/AvmJR8yAml924hvmdUIlS uQi1vp7mKES+Sjf2OqPzRYcU6KTEhdHhIabkGPO4cKWSkmMFUhnZ+W1HdzCLyAYuCySU T3aEVo7YhExYDHkkSMNf2/tyOzsTzM04OlCDpsYx0/FOHUoEvJySx8uY+DwSBWzJ7zik i6v19mYolnBthDUVxE0Q+stu9Pd9qUZgJv8Oizt82+g4a/0A06T6RauNYiPsIXvo5dvH s7XNfGLdFbY/HEoqKGvzBa7KWvagvgeCXS6EAS5gFuZ/4igUNBQvw/xomzUPP2TrW5Xl 15hQ== X-Received: by 10.236.22.229 with SMTP id t65mr13336315yht.47.1396624689194; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 08:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from StephenPC (99-33-57-96.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net. [99.33.57.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id n21sm15275464yhm.1.2014.04.04.08.18.08 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 04 Apr 2014 08:18:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Stephen Perry" To: "'Allen'" References: <1452c5f24a0.277d.49425171f56f22d4251074c8012c3090@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <1452c5f24a0.277d.49425171f56f22d4251074c8012c3090@comcast.net> Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:18:20 -0500 Message-ID: <014901cf5019$1de587e0$59b097a0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQGHdVWSFOXlP15hf4gexL3l1E1JDQM4JHNtAZX4rXIBXtU9Gptf0FPA Content-Language: en-us Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 15:18:10 -0000 > > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. There > > > never has been and there never will be. > > Oh come on now, it depends on a couple of things, and I wouldn't go that far. > I've got a lot of family members that know next to nothing about computers, > and I got tired of fixing them all the time. > > Just as an example, my cousin basically destroyed his parents computer and > got a job, and bought himself a brand new computer, and had me set it up. > This was a while back and his Windows XP Home computer took all of one > week too have issues. I updated Windows and saw he had never tried. > > I installed Spybot and AVG and updated them and ran them. When I got back > home, I checked them and they had found over 12,000 infections! Everything > from trojans and back doors, to those fake security centers. > > He is an idiot when it comes to this stuff and I don't mind saying so. The weird > thing was that all he did on this computer, was go online with a web browser, > IM with friend's, and listen to music and download all types of things. He did > do some homework in between porn marathons too. > > My point for all this is that I eventually did something that worked; I installed > Linux on his computer, made a script to keep it updated, and basically, I had > KDE installed, Gnome, and a few others, and by setting up KDE and putting > Web browser short cuts on the desktop, a shortcut to some IM clients, an > XMMS shortcut, and a few others so that he could do what he was doing. I > set up some Office suites as well, and this worked. His machine stayed up to > date without any issues, and he no longer had any problems. The common denominator for these types of issues is that the average consumer isn't properly educated on how to maintain a computer or on responsible internet browsing. You can only get so far with Geek Squad before they've exhausted their knowledge and competency of computers in general. > > You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the > > nerds are going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop! > > It's totally viable!" > > Like I said, I wouldn't go that far; Those of us on this list probably aren't fans > of Windows, and probably only use it when required, but in the example I > gave above, I found that people who know literally nothing about computers > in general, do really well with Linux and BSD as long as I took the time to set > up the desktop for them and installed all the stuff they needed and placed > the shortcuts on the desktop. It worked really well. Even my Mom who > knows nothing about computers, can sit down and use Linux or BSD without > any trouble, as long as the desktop is set up properly. I am a fan of Windows for the most part, probably because I enjoy gaming and don't like looking for workarounds to what I've been accustomed to for a couple of decades now on either Windows or Mac OS (I'm 25...interpret that as you will). The problem that I've always seen with Linux or BSD in general is the fact that you have to take the time to set it up or have someone do it for you if you have no idea how to read documentation or don't feel comfortable installing the system yourself. OS X will do the job for the average consumer wanting a UNIX-like experience with a functional desktop out of the box even if it costs them their kidney. I myself have little difficulty with Linux or BSD, but I originally started out my university life in computer science and am therefore not really your average consumer. > > Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're > > masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use > > case doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a > > market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a > > small company. Many companies combined create a market. > > > Back to sleep. > > Now see, that has a point, but I do personally think that Unix not only does > fine on the desktop, but depending on which version, some versions are > more suited to being used as a desktop than others; PC-BSD for example, > along with SUSE and even Mandriva, all work well for this. That's the very problem with Linux and BSD: which version should I use? Should I go with openSUSE? Or maybe should I go with Ubuntu? Yeah, Ubuntu looks like the easier way to find software I want. But then what version of Ubuntu should I use? Unity, KDE, or something else? What is this OpenBox I see everyone raving about? I just want iTunes so I can plug in my iPhone and listen to my music; what do you mean iTunes won't work? The reason there isn't a huge market for consumer Linux or BSD is because consumers don't care about the alternatives that they have to set up themselves after figuring out what disc image to download and how to burn in to DVD or CD. What Apple and Microsoft have been very good about doing for the past 20+ years is providing consumers with two very simple options that work out of the box. Linux and BSD has yet to do the same from what I can tell, even despite the efforts made by Dell (offering a single laptop configuration with Ubuntu 12.04) and System76. The freedom that we enjoy on BSD or Linux, or just open source as a whole, is a double-edge sword when dealing with consumers. Despite some project's best efforts, BSD and Linux still require a certain level of technical knowledge that Best Buy, Target, Walmart, Fry's, and any other major brick-and-mortar retailer cannot offer assistance in (because those employees aren't technically educated either and have most likely only heard of Windows or OS X except in the case of Fry's). I am no opponent of open source at all, but the reason it hasn't done well in consumer markets is because of the fact that it's open source and offers far too many choices that the average, generally computer-illiterate consumer doesn't want to make or simply doesn't care about. All of us already know that BSD and Linux is at a technical advantage to Windows and OS X. Until it's as easy to install and set up as it is on OS X or Windows, it won't go anywhere for consumers. Stephen Perry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 4 16:00:47 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E725D5F1 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:00:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-oa0-x22a.google.com (mail-oa0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8E4DFF9 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:00:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-oa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id i4so3787117oah.29 for ; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 09:00:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=EoPg9NOiHxFYs9hzbPOfetg4sn6edu6yrz37kWCOVrQ=; b=XLZpA72GlQtUcN5rl5f+O4nrB0s6Z8KRWbmNdKY61vFgnEKs8EwUPD4EQs3/au6xQv TDKpVpc/1uC0SO/y6SmOCEw3dcdlv6xX/Oz3hOMkk+23PnlgmVAescz8GGU7WQGKiTa4 rTcCXrd0svjXhXF3CSXHp1QB3fflEzY1ss9lvEeuLxJR0+t/F3sRVAv9zR00cD0NTZFz mDSgM3Vq7mryG3Rh0Wggmytb8JC553Tx0bopIhEMvWTal7vh9jXce/aXLBLzaxK/qusv PzT/rSdL18KC0+b7FrcdRUOG3Sh12CkbU3rL0f3h5hbGNAEgarnr0KnEW6nHtQCOIWid tnGA== X-Received: by 10.60.140.201 with SMTP id ri9mr1532648oeb.74.1396627241172; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 09:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WORKSTATION01 (cpe-72-181-89-109.stx.res.rr.com. [72.181.89.109]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id pq8sm13949058obc.12.2014.04.04.09.00.39 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 04 Apr 2014 09:00:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris Benesch" To: References: <1452c5f24a0.277d.49425171f56f22d4251074c8012c3090@comcast.net> <014901cf5019$1de587e0$59b097a0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <014901cf5019$1de587e0$59b097a0$@gmail.com> Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 11:00:17 -0500 Message-ID: <012601cf501f$063db7b0$12b92710$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQGHdVWSFOXlP15hf4gexL3l1E1JDQM4JHNtAZX4rXIBXtU9GgF0mK+Wm1Q+zAA= Content-Language: en-us X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 16:00:47 -0000 Hi guys, I've been watching this heated discussion for a few days and here is my $.02 I'm not your average computer user either. I learned BASIC on a Commodore 64 back in 84 and decided my collection of toys was nowhere hear as fun as making ascii art dance across the screen, or flying a carat symbol through a canyon made of asterisks. Then I learned sprites and within a month had the byte codes to make a circle down in my head. Amazing what young brain can do before you hit high school and ruin it with partying :-) I work in the software development field now professionally, mostly on large AIX systems. My wet dream has always been to go to a full Linux / BSD desktop for work and entertainment. I don't do a lot of gaming, so that's not a huge issue, but there always ends up being something. Some little thing that works fine on Windows and doesn't on *nix. I can usually find a workaround, but again, out of the box if it weren't for my stubbornness I would switch back pretty quickly. I remember everyones complaint with *nix systems 10 years ago was hardware support. "Oh theres plenty of software to do everything, but my XXX graphics card doesn't work" Now, it's the opposite. I spend half a day installing windows on a system and finding all the drivers, whereas *nix picks it all up right out of the box. We also had an old laptop and finally caved to give our 12 year old son his own computer. The first thing I thought was "Ok I'll just throw XP on it with Firefox and AVG" Since all he really does is look up pictures to print out and color and play flash games. I come back a month later to do some updates and make sure its all up to date and its running like a slug. No viruses, nothing like that, just Winrot. So I threw Lubuntu on it and its been humming along fine and snappy for 6 months now. It also allowed me to get in via SSH and set up a cron job to shut itself down when hes not supposed to be on it :) He adapted to the new environment easily and happily uses LXDE on an Ubuntu clone and goes to school and uses Windows. It surprises even me how adaptable he is given he has mild autism. I guess what I'm saying is coming from a blank slate, *nix works great. The problem, and the largest market share is the people in the middle. Those who are used to Windows, aren't real hackers and don't want to learn new stuff, they just want to go in and have everything look and act like they are used to. And they don't want to lose the ability to play their copy of Duke Nukem 3-D they bought long ago either :-) As I see it, the solution is kind of simple. We are already there minus the software that people may want to use that is legacy. Macintosh early on had the ability to run .exe files, and through years of hard work, they are a competitor to Windows. *nix .. sort of does. We need to work the hell out of Wine and make it built into any desktop distribution. I know easier said than done, but the end result would be worth it. The day that Bob the car mechanic can go to Wal Mart and spend $500 on a Windows 8 laptop that runs like a slug, or $300 on a laptop with some *nix distro that runs twice as fast and both allow him to just pop in the CD from an auto manufacturer and run their software will be the turning point. The way to really make it drive its point home is gaming. I don't know much about the internals of it, but *nix needs some good games or at least a fast compatibility layer to play the big ones out there now. Bottom line, make it fun and make it compatible. The lower price will attract plenty of customers. As long as they allow us die hards to install a text only system we're good :-) -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Perry Sent: Friday, April 4, 2014 10:18 AM To: 'Allen' Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; hackers@freebsd.org; current@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market > > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. > > > There never has been and there never will be. > > Oh come on now, it depends on a couple of things, and I wouldn't go > that far. > I've got a lot of family members that know next to nothing about computers, > and I got tired of fixing them all the time. > > Just as an example, my cousin basically destroyed his parents computer > and got a job, and bought himself a brand new computer, and had me set it up. > This was a while back and his Windows XP Home computer took all of one > week too have issues. I updated Windows and saw he had never tried. > > I installed Spybot and AVG and updated them and ran them. When I got > back home, I checked them and they had found over 12,000 infections! > Everything from trojans and back doors, to those fake security centers. > > He is an idiot when it comes to this stuff and I don't mind saying so. > The weird > thing was that all he did on this computer, was go online with a web browser, > IM with friend's, and listen to music and download all types of > things. He did > do some homework in between porn marathons too. > > My point for all this is that I eventually did something that worked; > I installed > Linux on his computer, made a script to keep it updated, and > basically, I had > KDE installed, Gnome, and a few others, and by setting up KDE and > putting Web browser short cuts on the desktop, a shortcut to some IM > clients, an XMMS shortcut, and a few others so that he could do what > he was doing. I set up some Office suites as well, and this worked. > His machine stayed up to > date without any issues, and he no longer had any problems. The common denominator for these types of issues is that the average consumer isn't properly educated on how to maintain a computer or on responsible internet browsing. You can only get so far with Geek Squad before they've exhausted their knowledge and competency of computers in general. > > You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the > > nerds are going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop! > > It's totally viable!" > > Like I said, I wouldn't go that far; Those of us on this list probably aren't fans > of Windows, and probably only use it when required, but in the example > I gave above, I found that people who know literally nothing about > computers in general, do really well with Linux and BSD as long as I > took the time to set > up the desktop for them and installed all the stuff they needed and > placed the shortcuts on the desktop. It worked really well. Even my > Mom who knows nothing about computers, can sit down and use Linux or > BSD without any trouble, as long as the desktop is set up properly. I am a fan of Windows for the most part, probably because I enjoy gaming and don't like looking for workarounds to what I've been accustomed to for a couple of decades now on either Windows or Mac OS (I'm 25...interpret that as you will). The problem that I've always seen with Linux or BSD in general is the fact that you have to take the time to set it up or have someone do it for you if you have no idea how to read documentation or don't feel comfortable installing the system yourself. OS X will do the job for the average consumer wanting a UNIX-like experience with a functional desktop out of the box even if it costs them their kidney. I myself have little difficulty with Linux or BSD, but I originally started out my university life in computer science and am therefore not really your average consumer. > > Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're > > masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use > > case doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a > > market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a > > small company. Many companies combined create a market. > > > Back to sleep. > > Now see, that has a point, but I do personally think that Unix not > only does > fine on the desktop, but depending on which version, some versions are > more suited to being used as a desktop than others; PC-BSD for > example, along with SUSE and even Mandriva, all work well for this. That's the very problem with Linux and BSD: which version should I use? Should I go with openSUSE? Or maybe should I go with Ubuntu? Yeah, Ubuntu looks like the easier way to find software I want. But then what version of Ubuntu should I use? Unity, KDE, or something else? What is this OpenBox I see everyone raving about? I just want iTunes so I can plug in my iPhone and listen to my music; what do you mean iTunes won't work? The reason there isn't a huge market for consumer Linux or BSD is because consumers don't care about the alternatives that they have to set up themselves after figuring out what disc image to download and how to burn in to DVD or CD. What Apple and Microsoft have been very good about doing for the past 20+ years is providing consumers with two very simple options that work out of the box. Linux and BSD has yet to do the same from what I can tell, even despite the efforts made by Dell (offering a single laptop configuration with Ubuntu 12.04) and System76. The freedom that we enjoy on BSD or Linux, or just open source as a whole, is a double-edge sword when dealing with consumers. Despite some project's best efforts, BSD and Linux still require a certain level of technical knowledge that Best Buy, Target, Walmart, Fry's, and any other major brick-and-mortar retailer cannot offer assistance in (because those employees aren't technically educated either and have most likely only heard of Windows or OS X except in the case of Fry's). I am no opponent of open source at all, but the reason it hasn't done well in consumer markets is because of the fact that it's open source and offers far too many choices that the average, generally computer-illiterate consumer doesn't want to make or simply doesn't care about. All of us already know that BSD and Linux is at a technical advantage to Windows and OS X. Until it's as easy to install and set up as it is on OS X or Windows, it won't go anywhere for consumers. Stephen Perry _______________________________________________ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 4 22:42:58 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43111665 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 2014 22:42:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-oa0-x22e.google.com (mail-oa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05BEEBF2 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 2014 22:42:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-oa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id i7so4225722oag.19 for ; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 15:42:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=I1dfkqyMzFBUK83FuiOFFbD37SemefI4Wq9t3ORdptw=; b=gO7aSgg0rxpNsPyznNpsEeiTlnlQ8n6uJlDLlGHkZe8qlscXFD6pCGU5Dih0yjDyla edwtqPwB8FnV02C8jFyCZV9sOodML1bdLjGxUdgeXfLarvAyWnpa42/HpYA4u50JQyKC Gl1KS1sLgUGczTGm3MJgmGCCIzVW2cSqm4d6lGjz3FXcBIh4LV5wW/GGF5csc001iBD8 dCgrXE6SGipPeDa28g5lAPjLoLpNoSKt6nSKOdngxRZ9NksFrY1jiLNDu4q38KRECy2J yBaYm8gRfH+EyZP0TBxsT8D8CfSkt4Np4fMeJh+XMGpAnoCF11bUWxjBK7rVRF3WCDXS 60/g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.135.228 with SMTP id pv4mr1803624obb.62.1396651377267; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 15:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.130.71 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:42:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <012601cf501f$063db7b0$12b92710$@gmail.com> References: <1452c5f24a0.277d.49425171f56f22d4251074c8012c3090@comcast.net> <014901cf5019$1de587e0$59b097a0$@gmail.com> <012601cf501f$063db7b0$12b92710$@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 18:42:57 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Joe Nosay To: Chris Benesch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.17 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 22:42:58 -0000 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Chris Benesch wrote: > Hi guys, I've been watching this heated discussion for a few days and here > is my $.02 > > I'm not your average computer user either. I learned BASIC on a Commodore > 64 back in 84 and decided my collection of toys was nowhere hear as fun as > making ascii art dance across the screen, or flying a carat symbol through > a > canyon made of asterisks. Then I learned sprites and within a month had > the > byte codes to make a circle down in my head. Amazing what young brain can > do before you hit high school and ruin it with partying :-) > > I work in the software development field now professionally, mostly on > large > AIX systems. My wet dream has always been to go to a full Linux / BSD > desktop for work and entertainment. I don't do a lot of gaming, so that's > not a huge issue, but there always ends up being something. Some little > thing that works fine on Windows and doesn't on *nix. I can usually find a > workaround, but again, out of the box if it weren't for my stubbornness I > would switch back pretty quickly. > > I remember everyones complaint with *nix systems 10 years ago was hardware > support. "Oh theres plenty of software to do everything, but my XXX > graphics card doesn't work" Now, it's the opposite. I spend half a day > installing windows on a system and finding all the drivers, whereas *nix > picks it all up right out of the box. > > We also had an old laptop and finally caved to give our 12 year old son his > own computer. The first thing I thought was "Ok I'll just throw XP on it > with Firefox and AVG" Since all he really does is look up pictures to > print > out and color and play flash games. I come back a month later to do some > updates and make sure its all up to date and its running like a slug. No > viruses, nothing like that, just Winrot. So I threw Lubuntu on it and its > been humming along fine and snappy for 6 months now. It also allowed me to > get in via SSH and set up a cron job to shut itself down when hes not > supposed to be on it :) He adapted to the new environment easily and > happily uses LXDE on an Ubuntu clone and goes to school and uses Windows. > It surprises even me how adaptable he is given he has mild autism. I guess > what I'm saying is coming from a blank slate, *nix works great. > > The problem, and the largest market share is the people in the middle. > Those who are used to Windows, aren't real hackers and don't want to learn > new stuff, they just want to go in and have everything look and act like > they are used to. And they don't want to lose the ability to play their > copy of Duke Nukem 3-D they bought long ago either :-) > > As I see it, the solution is kind of simple. We are already there minus > the > software that people may want to use that is legacy. Macintosh early on > had > the ability to run .exe files, and through years of hard work, they are a > competitor to Windows. *nix .. sort of does. We need to work the hell out > of Wine and make it built into any desktop distribution. I know easier > said > than done, but the end result would be worth it. > > The day that Bob the car mechanic can go to Wal Mart and spend $500 on a > Windows 8 laptop that runs like a slug, or $300 on a laptop with some *nix > distro that runs twice as fast and both allow him to just pop in the CD > from > an auto manufacturer and run their software will be the turning point. > > The way to really make it drive its point home is gaming. I don't know > much > about the internals of it, but *nix needs some good games or at least a > fast > compatibility layer to play the big ones out there now. > > Bottom line, make it fun and make it compatible. The lower price will > attract plenty of customers. As long as they allow us die hards to install > a text only system we're good :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Perry > Sent: Friday, April 4, 2014 10:18 AM > To: 'Allen' > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; hackers@freebsd.org; current@freebsd.org > Subject: RE: Leaving the Desktop Market > > > > > There is no such thing as a desktop market for *BSD or Linux. > > > > There never has been and there never will be. > > > > Oh come on now, it depends on a couple of things, and I wouldn't go > > that > far. > > I've got a lot of family members that know next to nothing about > computers, > > and I got tired of fixing them all the time. > > > > Just as an example, my cousin basically destroyed his parents computer > > and got a job, and bought himself a brand new computer, and had me set it > up. > > This was a while back and his Windows XP Home computer took all of one > > week too have issues. I updated Windows and saw he had never tried. > > > > I installed Spybot and AVG and updated them and ran them. When I got > > back home, I checked them and they had found over 12,000 infections! > > Everything from trojans and back doors, to those fake security centers. > > > > He is an idiot when it comes to this stuff and I don't mind saying so. > > The > weird > > thing was that all he did on this computer, was go online with a web > browser, > > IM with friend's, and listen to music and download all types of > > things. He > did > > do some homework in between porn marathons too. > > > > My point for all this is that I eventually did something that worked; > > I > installed > > Linux on his computer, made a script to keep it updated, and > > basically, I > had > > KDE installed, Gnome, and a few others, and by setting up KDE and > > putting Web browser short cuts on the desktop, a shortcut to some IM > > clients, an XMMS shortcut, and a few others so that he could do what > > he was doing. I set up some Office suites as well, and this worked. > > His machine stayed up > to > > date without any issues, and he no longer had any problems. > > The common denominator for these types of issues is that the average > consumer isn't properly educated on how to maintain a computer or on > responsible internet browsing. You can only get so far with Geek Squad > before they've exhausted their knowledge and competency of computers in > general. > > > > You know you opened a can of worms with that one. Because all the > > > nerds are going to step up and say "Well, I run FreeBSD on my desktop! > > > It's totally viable!" > > > > Like I said, I wouldn't go that far; Those of us on this list probably > aren't fans > > of Windows, and probably only use it when required, but in the example > > I gave above, I found that people who know literally nothing about > > computers in general, do really well with Linux and BSD as long as I > > took the time > to set > > up the desktop for them and installed all the stuff they needed and > > placed the shortcuts on the desktop. It worked really well. Even my > > Mom who knows nothing about computers, can sit down and use Linux or > > BSD without any trouble, as long as the desktop is set up properly. > > I am a fan of Windows for the most part, probably because I enjoy gaming > and > don't like looking for workarounds to what I've been accustomed to for a > couple of decades now on either Windows or Mac OS (I'm 25...interpret that > as you will). The problem that I've always seen with Linux or BSD in > general > is the fact that you have to take the time to set it up or have someone do > it for you if you have no idea how to read documentation or don't feel > comfortable installing the system yourself. OS X will do the job for the > average consumer wanting a UNIX-like experience with a functional desktop > out of the box even if it costs them their kidney. I myself have little > difficulty with Linux or BSD, but I originally started out my university > life in computer science and am therefore not really your average consumer. > > > > Dear nerds, get some perspective. You aren't an end user, and you're > > > masochistic. It's okay, we accept you here. But your individual use > > > case doesn't indicate a place in the market. Your basement isn't a > > > market. It's a basement. Your small company isn't a market. It's a > > > small company. Many companies combined create a market. > > > > > Back to sleep. > > > > Now see, that has a point, but I do personally think that Unix not > > only > does > > fine on the desktop, but depending on which version, some versions are > > more suited to being used as a desktop than others; PC-BSD for > > example, along with SUSE and even Mandriva, all work well for this. > > That's the very problem with Linux and BSD: which version should I use? > Should I go with openSUSE? Or maybe should I go with Ubuntu? Yeah, Ubuntu > looks like the easier way to find software I want. But then what version of > Ubuntu should I use? Unity, KDE, or something else? What is this OpenBox I > see everyone raving about? I just want iTunes so I can plug in my iPhone > and > listen to my music; what do you mean iTunes won't work? > > The reason there isn't a huge market for consumer Linux or BSD is because > consumers don't care about the alternatives that they have to set up > themselves after figuring out what disc image to download and how to burn > in > to DVD or CD. What Apple and Microsoft have been very good about doing for > the past 20+ years is providing consumers with two very simple options that > work out of the box. Linux and BSD has yet to do the same from what I can > tell, even despite the efforts made by Dell (offering a single laptop > configuration with Ubuntu 12.04) and System76. The freedom that we enjoy > on > BSD or Linux, or just open source as a whole, is a double-edge sword when > dealing with consumers. Despite some project's best efforts, BSD and Linux > still require a certain level of technical knowledge that Best Buy, Target, > Walmart, Fry's, and any other major brick-and-mortar retailer cannot offer > assistance in (because those employees aren't technically educated either > and have most likely only heard of Windows or OS X except in the case of > Fry's). > > I am no opponent of open source at all, but the reason it hasn't done well > in consumer markets is because of the fact that it's open source and offers > far too many choices that the average, generally computer-illiterate > consumer doesn't want to make or simply doesn't care about. All of us > already know that BSD and Linux is at a technical advantage to Windows and > OS X. Until it's as easy to install and set up as it is on OS X or Windows, > it won't go anywhere for consumers. > > Stephen Perry > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org > " > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org > " > Another alternative is to offer custom built systems using Open Source. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 5 11:18:03 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3CAD4A7 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 2014 11:18:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (relay4-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::196]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73130EAB for ; Sat, 5 Apr 2014 11:18:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mfilter31-d.gandi.net (mfilter31-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.162]) by relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDEF3172092 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 2014 13:18:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter31-d.gandi.net Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.196]) by mfilter31-d.gandi.net (mfilter31-d.gandi.net [10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tiA3ei4RCT+D for ; Sat, 5 Apr 2014 13:18:00 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 192.94.73.15 Received: from SDF.ORG (SDF.ORG [192.94.73.15]) (Authenticated sender: mayuresh@kathe.in) by relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E1117172080 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 2014 13:17:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 11:17:56 +0000 From: Mayuresh Kathe To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: there's something about freebsd! Message-ID: <20140405111756.GB11187@SDF.ORG> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2014 11:18:03 -0000 hello, it's been less than a week i've been exploring freebsd 10 as an alternative to my previous default ubuntu and sometimes a heavy dose of openbsd. why did i migrate to freebsd 10 in the first place? well, simply because i wanted to have a well supported clan/llvm based system, and mac os x based options were to expensive. :) guess what, in these past 4 days, i have grown to like freebsd. and why is that? very simply, the community, it's awesome. :) especially when compared to the newbie hostile openbsd community. yes, the openbsd crowd too is helpful, but any suggestion for improvements or enhancements are usually shot down, quite brutally. out here, it's a lot more friendlier and people are a lot more supporting towards a newbie's condition. so, i guess, i am sure to migrate away from all the rest and stick with freebsd for the foreseable future. wish me good luck and perseverence. ;) ~mayuresh From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 7 11:06:40 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 016659D2 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2014 11:06:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7E54BE1 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2014 11:06:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s37B6dSA070967 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2014 11:06:39 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s37B6dnb070965 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 7 Apr 2014 11:06:39 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 11:06:39 GMT Message-Id: <201404071106.s37B6dnb070965@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2014 11:06:40 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 9 04:13:05 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BCAF210 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2014 04:13:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 303AA13C8 for ; Wed, 9 Apr 2014 04:13:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id bj1so1962561pad.17 for ; Tue, 08 Apr 2014 21:13:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=092aFMNqd7CamJ/FS6dPytmB7ynS2Ana2kgd2aXqZfg=; b=HA0VroYzqKTFrWApogYQ2i/1aXqV7xPrmirQoHQ3Vh5A5/9ChUhQOEkWJDqioD6uXa doGcFUvHGdCFL29mZQ9rFI8hSub4FI8HeF63nsejqS3dRWs5vcdAIHXnHxQIdco8a+Td 3cM2RVMUikODTLHYf4T83dKhshi/SZLmSA8dBBtgu/NzQIrQimUWwIIhnnUTzaVjxPY9 qQ2lYD7CSCIsBuCQnzADgi0AGo29LNiFdhyxyq8uqaIodsUkJiNO73uGxdaUweruuJIr 905XrYr/g6WNgAaFktkfpWG3iRfTiJs0TwOcYsViKdrBg3G+qEpth5n/FJNmrdhASKi/ P1FQ== X-Received: by 10.68.93.3 with SMTP id cq3mr9079805pbb.145.1397016784881; Tue, 08 Apr 2014 21:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.7] (ppp59-167-128-11.static.internode.on.net. [59.167.128.11]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id qh2sm19344157pab.13.2014.04.08.21.13.02 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 08 Apr 2014 21:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5344C8C9.70004@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:12:57 +1000 From: Kubilay Kocak User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:28.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/28.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mayuresh Kathe , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: there's something about freebsd! References: <20140405111756.GB11187@SDF.ORG> In-Reply-To: <20140405111756.GB11187@SDF.ORG> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: koobs@FreeBSD.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 04:13:05 -0000 On 5/04/2014 10:17 PM, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: > hello, it's been less than a week i've been exploring freebsd 10 > as an alternative to my previous default ubuntu and sometimes a > heavy dose of openbsd. > > why did i migrate to freebsd 10 in the first place? > well, simply because i wanted to have a well supported clan/llvm > based system, and mac os x based options were to expensive. :) > > guess what, in these past 4 days, i have grown to like freebsd. > and why is that? > very simply, the community, it's awesome. :) > especially when compared to the newbie hostile openbsd community. > yes, the openbsd crowd too is helpful, but any suggestion for > improvements or enhancements are usually shot down, quite brutally. > > out here, it's a lot more friendlier and people are a lot more > supporting towards a newbie's condition. > > so, i guess, i am sure to migrate away from all the rest and stick > with freebsd for the foreseable future. > > wish me good luck and perseverence. ;) > > ~mayuresh > Welcome to the community & FreeBSD Mayuresh :) Thank you for taking the time to let us know about your experience, it's always great to hear feedback. Have fun! Koobs From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 14 11:06:41 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 438F9E6B for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 11:06:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16A3D164D for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 11:06:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s3EB6eb6025785 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 11:06:40 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s3EB6elv025783 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 14 Apr 2014 11:06:40 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 11:06:40 GMT Message-Id: <201404141106.s3EB6elv025783@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 11:06:41 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Apr 15 14:20:51 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA9AA45F for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:20:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.mustanglist.com (mail3.mustanglist.com [50.16.231.103]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D5B11C3 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:20:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail3.mustanglist.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.mustanglist.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512538087 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:20:51 -0500 (CDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=ndiconferences.org; h=from :reply-to:list-unsubscribe:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:subject:to:message-id:date; s=ml2; bh=oHc11M2Xxs7e5/BVHy6IzDxZxzQ=; b=QaqXtX+guFWs/CK3xB3xod1EKoQh bEkWWQiaZVzX7rk8chSJA7FsPLCVvVowmiotiNNtXcL8B+KBtfFF72BepltI76Hi Z5urrQlODFK6SpBA+MHPyalugB2Azlr56gpLa9g4Sqb5tW8lZXjD6X1j2D5rBxRe hmPawbf0HcZNOu0= Received: from mail3.mustanglist.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.mustanglist.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D348152 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:20:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Kristi LaRose X-Mailer: MustangList [msg-1397571651.2556 en-mail3] X-RPTags: List Type Content X-MLlistcampaign: 583-113005 X-ML-Message-ID: <> X-ML-Message-Source: <> X-ML-Message-Trk: <> Subject: GuideStar Issues Gold to Nonprofit That Supports Nonprofits To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20140415142051.40D348152@mail3.mustanglist.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:20:51 -0500 (CDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.17 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: Kristi LaRose List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:20:52 -0000 [1]NDI Celebrates GuideStar Award Gifting Digital Resources to Nonprofits - Visit HERE to Download In Celebration, the founders of National Development Institute have opened NDI's Digital Download Library for 24hrs making available a myriad of resources to nonprofit executives. Please visit above to download your complimentary gifts. FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (April 15, 2014) 36 months ago, GuideStar USA issued their Exchange Seal of Transparency in Nonprofit Management to National Development Institute (NDI). Today, after three years of successful participation in this program, GuideStar awarded NDI its Gold Level Participant's Seal of Excellence, a leading symbol of transparency and GuideStar's highest decoration(of the 37,863 charitable agencies who participate in GuideStar's Transparency Exchange Program only 2,992 nonprofits including National Development Institute have achieved Gold Status.) Jimmy LaRose, NDI's founder was quoted, "We want to thank NDI's donors, corporations and foundations for their financial investment in the many programs our faculty, staff & administration oversee. Their gifts made possible our service to over 3,450 organizations these past three years. GuideStar's confidence in National Development Institute further inspires our team to do our work in the bright light of openness and accountability. Our many thanks to GuideStar for truly contributing to the advancement of civil society." Charles Anderson, NDI's CEO shared, "We're grateful that GuideStar provides organizations like National Development Institute the opportunity to showcase excellence in nonprofit management. Today's issuance of Gold Level Status places NDI in the top ten percent of charities who participate in the GuideStar program demonstrating to our supporters that NDI is a good steward of their gifts." About GuideStar Exchange The GuideStar Exchange Program has been designed to connect financial supporters with charitable agencies whose programs ensure donors accomplish their philanthropic goals. Millions of leaders rely on GuideStar's research to accurately understand the impact an individual nonprofit has when it realizes its mission. GuideStar USA highlights the different dimensions of management and impact administered by a charity providing donors a wealth of information they can rely on when inspired to share a financial gift. To stop receiving messages from the NDI Master Broadcast Files, click [2]here. To pass a copy of this message on to a friend, click [3]here. This email was sent to you by: National Development Institute 201 East Main Street Lexington SC 29072 [msg-1397571651.2556 en-mail3] References Visible links 1. http://r.mustanglist.com/redir.php/b/TWpNMDU4My0xMTMwMDUtMzIyNTg2NC0zODI1MTEzOQ~~/ 2. http://www.mustanglist.com/us.php/msg/1397571651.2556/en/mail3 3. http://www.mustanglist.com/pio.php/msg/1397571651.2556/en/mail3 Hidden links: 4. http://www.mustanglist.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 21 11:06:43 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C788F2B for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:06:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4F2C194D for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:06:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s3LB6ggk085630 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:06:42 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s3LB6gWX085628 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:06:42 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:06:42 GMT Message-Id: <201404211106.s3LB6gWX085628@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:06:43 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Apr 28 11:06:43 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57FA73C6 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2014 11:06:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BCC91A96 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2014 11:06:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s3SB6h6w086044 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2014 11:06:43 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s3SB6g54086041 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 28 Apr 2014 11:06:42 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 11:06:42 GMT Message-Id: <201404281106.s3SB6g54086041@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 11:06:43 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 3 15:58:01 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C061F1FA; Sat, 3 May 2014 15:58:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ms-10.1blu.de (ms-10.1blu.de [178.254.4.101]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AB891919; Sat, 3 May 2014 15:58:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [188.174.54.34] (helo=localhost.my.domain) by ms-10.1blu.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WgcJy-0004u7-LC; Sat, 03 May 2014 17:57:50 +0200 Received: from localhost.my.domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.my.domain (8.14.7/8.14.3) with ESMTP id s43FvmKw002550; Sat, 3 May 2014 17:57:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: (from guru@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.14.7/8.14.3/Submit) id s43Fvkib002549; Sat, 3 May 2014 17:57:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: guru set sender to guru@unixarea.de using -f Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 17:57:45 +0200 From: Matthias Apitz To: David Chisnall Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market Message-ID: <20140503155745.GA2457@La-Habana> References: <3F7430D7-3C0F-43E1-8EBD-8AA4F701497C@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <3F7430D7-3C0F-43E1-8EBD-8AA4F701497C@FreeBSD.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 9.0-CURRENT r214444 (i386) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Con-Id: 51246 X-Con-U: 0-guru X-Originating-IP: 188.174.54.34 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 03 May 2014 16:51:27 +0000 Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: Matthias Apitz List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 May 2014 15:58:01 -0000 El día Tuesday, April 01, 2014 a las 08:38:28AM +0100, David Chisnall escribió: > > Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the Core Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important goal, in particular for mobile / embedded scenarios. We're currently coordinating potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals from people interested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in either category then please drop either me, core, or the Foundation an email. > Hello, Using every day one of my FreeBSD netbooks (see below), I know very well that improving power management and by this the uptime while running on battery is a serious issue. I'm currently surprised about the big diff between two of my netbooks, one running 1 hour only while the other runs ~4 hours. I'm thinking about building a cable connection between the battery and the netbooks to measure the exact power drain (normally one can not see this because the battery is connected into its bay and you can not put any meter in there). I'm an experienced C-programmer and long time FreeBSD user and tester and I'm willing to dig deeper into this work. Please let me know if there is something to work on. Attached below is a description of the two mentioned netbooks and their uptime values. Thanks matthias comparing battery life time of [EeePC 900] and [Acer Aspire One D250] | EeePC 900 | Acer Aspire One D250 ----------+-----------------------------+------------------------------------ CPU | 900 MHz Intel Celeron M 353 | 2x Intel Atom CPU N270 @ 1.60GHz RAM | 2 GByte | 1 GByte disk | 2x SSD (4 GB, 16 GB) | WDC WD2500BEVT-22ZCT0 11.01A11 | | ATA-8 SATA 2.x, 238475MB display | TFT 1024x600 9" | TFT 1024x600 10" FreeBSD | 10-CURRENT r255948 | 10-CURRENT r250588 KDE | 4.10.5 | 3.5.10 WAN (UMTS)| USB u3g Huawei E1750 | USB u3g Huawei E1750 ----------+-----------------------------+------------------------------------ battery | Li-ion A22-701 7.4V 7200mAh | Li-ion UM08B74 11.1V 5200mAh / 54Wh | 53.380Wh | 57.720Wh ----------+-----------------------------+------------------------------------ uptime | ~1 hours | ~4 hours ----------+-----------------------------+------------------------------------ -- Matthias Apitz | /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign: E-mail: guru@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X - No proprietary attachments phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards | en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII_Ribbon_Campaign From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 3 16:37:10 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C0CA761; Sat, 3 May 2014 16:37:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-qa0-x236.google.com (mail-qa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 169EF1C5E; Sat, 3 May 2014 16:37:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id j15so278021qaq.27 for ; Sat, 03 May 2014 09:37:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CbA14A2fHx44b4O2YIv23ViZDG+z/b/71RlkI+M1CsE=; b=0k/DcEUF6lo5/hw5oyv8f7Vp68aOI2H/tui933YOZoiTC4z1F7vRNL99Z3x6jcRMAy g7vfZiQhIc/4Y53xl0Zp2rCYY4iVxHxN7i/FjQVQwE0lt4PDDl3LNPpRU2Rvy9moGQ0x P3DG8RKOUTNgrlCHKdO1s0VRz4kRgSsIX7topeVwxsVCh3EX5hA9Hi9iRTqJnLm+DJbc rQ5g7Swe/4bYt3GfkrewPD4MYmeKDs1xeydzFy9Qw2UTVCsWlUENHRvcXz3806Buy+VG QZ83Gtmxt4PkqzKnYSBvX3bwsudOfSxQ7hBW7fwM4gr1ZeM2zUnuIgcUG8OjZNOJBhL3 OLZw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.129.66 with SMTP id n2mr31756578qas.55.1399135028665; Sat, 03 May 2014 09:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.191.201 with HTTP; Sat, 3 May 2014 09:37:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140503155745.GA2457@La-Habana> References: <3F7430D7-3C0F-43E1-8EBD-8AA4F701497C@FreeBSD.org> <20140503155745.GA2457@La-Habana> Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 09:37:08 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: v8sqdRgcX2M4K8UpaFh90JXm2Lo Message-ID: Subject: Re: Leaving the Desktop Market From: Adrian Chadd To: Matthias Apitz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 03 May 2014 17:24:56 +0000 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, "current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Jordan Hubbard X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 May 2014 16:37:10 -0000 Hi, I'm working on adding some more power management logging support to freebsd-head so we can start to get a better grip on sleep/wakeup occurances. That should help us start to figure out where the power consumption is going. But on that EEEPC 900, just make sure you've set dev.cpu.0.cx_lowest to something lower than C1. -a On 3 May 2014 08:57, Matthias Apitz wrote: > El d=C3=ADa Tuesday, April 01, 2014 a las 08:38:28AM +0100, David Chisnal= l escribi=C3=B3: > >> >> Just a small note here: Improving power management is something that the= Core Team and the Foundation have jointly identified as an important goal,= in particular for mobile / embedded scenarios. We're currently coordinati= ng potential sponsors for the work and soliciting proposals from people int= erested in doing the work. If you know of anyone in either category then p= lease drop either me, core, or the Foundation an email. >> > > Hello, > > Using every day one of my FreeBSD netbooks (see below), I know very well > that improving power management and by this the uptime while running on > battery is a serious issue. I'm currently surprised about the big > diff between two of my netbooks, one running 1 hour only while the other > runs ~4 hours. I'm thinking about building a cable connection between > the battery and the netbooks to measure the exact power drain (normally > one can not see this because the battery is connected into its bay and > you can not put any meter in there). > > I'm an experienced C-programmer and long time FreeBSD user and tester > and I'm willing to dig deeper into this work. Please let me know if > there is something to work on. > > Attached below is a description of the two mentioned netbooks and their > uptime values. > > Thanks > > matthias > > > > comparing battery life time of [EeePC 900] and [Acer Aspire One D250] > > > | EeePC 900 | Acer Aspire One D250 > ----------+-----------------------------+--------------------------------= ---- > CPU | 900 MHz Intel Celeron M 353 | 2x Intel Atom CPU N270 @ 1.60GH= z > RAM | 2 GByte | 1 GByte > disk | 2x SSD (4 GB, 16 GB) | WDC WD2500BEVT-22ZCT0 11.01A11 > | | ATA-8 SATA 2.x, 238475MB > display | TFT 1024x600 9" | TFT 1024x600 10" > FreeBSD | 10-CURRENT r255948 | 10-CURRENT r250588 > KDE | 4.10.5 | 3.5.10 > WAN (UMTS)| USB u3g Huawei E1750 | USB u3g Huawei E1750 > ----------+-----------------------------+--------------------------------= ---- > battery | Li-ion A22-701 7.4V 7200mAh | Li-ion UM08B74 11.1V 5200mAh / = 54Wh > | 53.380Wh | 57.720Wh > ----------+-----------------------------+--------------------------------= ---- > uptime | ~1 hours | ~4 hours > ----------+-----------------------------+--------------------------------= ---- > > > -- > Matthias Apitz | /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign: > E-mail: guru@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail > WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X - No proprietary attachments > phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards > | en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII_Ribbon_Campaig= n > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 5 11:06:40 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78EB7CDE for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 11:06:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BC0D1CDF for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 11:06:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s45B6e7L083031 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 11:06:40 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s45B6daF083029 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 5 May 2014 11:06:39 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 11:06:39 GMT Message-Id: <201405051106.s45B6daF083029@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 11:06:40 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 12 11:06:40 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E7D1A4F for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 11:06:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4190F26B3 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 11:06:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s4CB6eGG067723 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 11:06:40 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s4CB6dvx067721 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 12 May 2014 11:06:39 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 11:06:39 GMT Message-Id: <201405121106.s4CB6dvx067721@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 11:06:40 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 11:06:41 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD3412BA for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 11:06:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FC792DA1 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 11:06:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s4JB6fU9079928 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 11:06:41 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s4JB6fO1079926 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 11:06:41 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 11:06:41 GMT Message-Id: <201405191106.s4JB6fO1079926@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 11:06:41 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 21:50:57 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E32B198 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 21:50:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Gandi Standard SSL CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5188E2C02 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 21:50:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fulvetta.riseup.net (fulvetta-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Gandi Standard SSL CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D1965199E; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: redcommiebastard@fulvetta.riseup.net) with ESMTPSA id CEB0E17F Message-ID: <537A7CB1.20505@riseup.net> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 16:50:41 -0500 From: Christopher User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@netbsd.org Subject: My Daemon Tattoo X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx1 X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.18 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 21:50:57 -0000 I'm a serious Unix head. Here is the proof! :-) Sincerely, ~Christopher Henderson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 21:53:13 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DA642A4 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 21:53:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Gandi Standard SSL CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8219E2C21 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 21:53:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fulvetta.riseup.net (fulvetta-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Gandi Standard SSL CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E691E5199E for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: redcommiebastard@fulvetta.riseup.net) with ESMTPSA id 8B3A8196 Message-ID: <537A7D43.6060603@riseup.net> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 16:53:07 -0500 From: Christopher User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: No Attachments? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx1 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 21:53:13 -0000 I tried sharing my tattoo. No attachments allowed? ~Christopher From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 21:58:12 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6403363C for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 21:58:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailoo.org (arnold.mailoo.org [212.83.147.198]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AED42C5B for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 21:58:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by arnold.mailoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F17AD17E for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 23:51:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (214.81.73.86.rev.sfr.net [86.73.81.214]) by arnold.mailoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C0466179 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 23:51:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <537A7CCD.3030108@mailoo.org> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 23:51:09 +0200 From: Edelwin Khaelos User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My Daemon Tattoo References: <537A7CB1.20505@riseup.net> In-Reply-To: <537A7CB1.20505@riseup.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 21:58:12 -0000 didn't you forget the picture? Le 19/05/2014 23:50, Christopher a écrit : > I'm a serious Unix head. Here is the proof! > > :-) > > Sincerely, > ~Christopher Henderson > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 21:59:34 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC88E688 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 21:59:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Gandi Standard SSL CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95E402C69 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 21:59:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fulvetta.riseup.net (fulvetta-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Gandi Standard SSL CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D119E4AA90 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: redcommiebastard@fulvetta.riseup.net) with ESMTPSA id 79AED17A Message-ID: <537A7EC1.9090004@riseup.net> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 16:59:29 -0500 From: Christopher User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: My Daemon Tat - take 2 X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx1 X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.18 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 21:59:34 -0000 I'll try this again... ~Christopher From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 22:00:43 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E23B179E for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 22:00:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailoo.org (arnold.mailoo.org [212.83.147.198]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB7E2C88 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 22:00:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by arnold.mailoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAC6C180 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 00:00:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (214.81.73.86.rev.sfr.net [86.73.81.214]) by arnold.mailoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8A05B17C for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 00:00:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <537A7ED8.2050500@mailoo.org> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 23:59:52 +0200 From: Edelwin Khaelos User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My Daemon Tat - take 2 References: <537A7EC1.9090004@riseup.net> In-Reply-To: <537A7EC1.9090004@riseup.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 22:00:44 -0000 just send us a link and stop wanking around on these MLs :p Le 19/05/2014 23:59, Christopher a écrit : > I'll try this again... > > ~Christopher > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 22:01:21 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 787C6871 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 22:01:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Gandi Standard SSL CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C9A02D06 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 22:01:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fulvetta.riseup.net (fulvetta-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Gandi Standard SSL CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3885E51888 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: redcommiebastard@fulvetta.riseup.net) with ESMTPSA id 564C417F Message-ID: <537A7F2D.9050604@riseup.net> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 17:01:17 -0500 From: Christopher User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: My Daemon Tat - take 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx1 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 22:01:21 -0000 http://picpaste.com/1384346_1405282959700964_1144484640_n-9GST7qlx.jpg There, no attachment. Just click on the link. Sincerely, ~Christopher From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 19 22:18:35 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0EECDD2 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 22:18:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fallback6.mail.ru (fallback2.mail.ru [94.100.176.87]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553A62E49 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 22:18:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp11.mail.ru (smtp11.mail.ru [94.100.179.252]) by fallback6.mail.ru (mPOP.Fallback_MX) with ESMTP id 3F1CA3932AC6 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 02:16:04 +0400 (MSK) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mail.ru; s=mail2; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Mime-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=I7jru/cLSmRl4QA/u8UDBH+GWd2Y902VdE7GprLwruw=; b=EIUyu2jogU5CKXMfVgoWvlpVg82nkvWnqPTtBJWzzpcneCeFn4n4BR6XiYIad9oR+qNX7x5IRI9tHBMbAfq9sXt1HrYRJaZlWBy8l3rkWLPt+y+YRBTVaPw2ibUKh13tcmoZ5irPFJcJg05NNw2V1bnnJ3n2wkzKzvQwcLh4bDk=; Received: from [176.31.26.4] (port=31222 helo=monolith03.lan) by smtp11.mail.ru with esmtps (envelope-from ) id 1WmVqc-0002jH-EH for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 20 May 2014 02:15:54 +0400 Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 00:15:49 +0200 From: Datasmurf To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My Daemon Tat - take 3 Message-Id: <20140520001549.76c83b8c7d3c2bfa10a0be8f@mail.ru> In-Reply-To: <537A7F2D.9050604@riseup.net> References: <537A7F2D.9050604@riseup.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.4.1 (GTK+ 2.24.22; amd64-portbld-freebsd9.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam: Not detected X-Mras: Ok X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 22:18:35 -0000 On Mon, 19 May 2014 17:01:17 -0500 Christopher wrote: > http://picpaste.com/1384346_1405282959700964_1144484640_n-9GST7qlx.jpg > > There, no attachment. Just click on the link. > > Sincerely, > ~Christopher > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > neat! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 26 11:06:42 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B714D65 for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 11:06:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206c::16:87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F2C524CE for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 11:06:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s4QB6fx8031935 for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 11:06:41 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.8/8.14.8/Submit) id s4QB6f22031933 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 26 May 2014 11:06:41 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 11:06:41 GMT Message-Id: <201405261106.s4QB6f22031933@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 11:06:42 -0000 Note: to view an individual PR, use: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=(number). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o advoc/188031 advocacy Contradictions between the FAQ and the Handbook 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 29 09:57:01 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 324D8A1C for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 09:57:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ig0-x24e.google.com (mail-ig0-x24e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::24e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 059BF259B for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 09:57:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ig0-f206.google.com with SMTP id hn18so1956igb.5 for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 02:57:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:message-id:date:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=NRud4Rn0KgtmU7VX4B5Sd7/KHaCSC4XMFVh89gmbK44=; b=EFtCcfpUi6B4c6rTcIENWuE9GdsYbO15T5tVzvqDsXvKAYI32pMHcLhznakgbkC2DZ Pp0AT0m2fjE5AErm/KpEqfGtdVqLlsq0W+0fv7G1JHNoLS13y8bOZoOgg8oQqN5DmpW+ cuHMJ5YMi5LxdSqqT7jpBuF+/GdxC5XFGlwr3RkYx+7Crhttm1SRAQniBTQPESDLh5ms fg1IVzP0oJNU/CI9jARyBRp8+x9yVIdn3iEYYfXQm+yj6pxdk71mf9uaEc9oIW+c3ebI VggukZ6UqzRZozVvN0o2WIzM6wwE7FyiHhK8Rh524huRkeVQMhWvMbHQLnQMm+IyOQPH 0H9g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.121.232 with SMTP id ln8mr2634050obb.11.1401357420281; Thu, 29 May 2014 02:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <089e012951423d432b04fa86f396@google.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 09:57:00 +0000 Subject: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Rosie To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.18 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 09:57:01 -0000 Hi, If you want your website to work harder, WE can help you measure your performances, identify areas of weakness, and clear a path to better conversion rates. There's no single reason why visitors to your website fail to become customers. The need is to attract visitor's attention that helps in better interaction. Optimisation does not mean changing the existing layout of your website but these are tools for better visitor engagements. Every non-converting visitor costs you in wasted market-ing efforts and missed sale. Would you be interested in receiving further information & a quote for optimising your website with no-strings-attached? Best regards, Rosie Conversion Optimisation Specialist *D*OMOTICS Western Australia, Northern Territory, South Australia, Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, Australian Capital Territory, Tasmania Disclaimer: We respect your privacy and want to make sure you are aware of a few things. By replying to this email, you authorise our affiliates that can help with your project to contact you at the number you provided, and you understand that they may use automated technology to reach you. At no time are you required to make a purchase. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 10 22:18:07 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04075F14 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 22:18:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp5-g21.free.fr (smtp5-g21.free.fr [IPv6:2a01:e0c:1:1599::14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30852918 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 22:18:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.18] (unknown [82.227.164.69]) by smtp5-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43366D4806C for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:17:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <53978416.90303@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:17:58 +0200 From: Rodrigo OSORIO User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD at Solutions Linux exibition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 22:18:07 -0000 FreeBSD at Solutions Linux 2014 In may 19, took place in Paris (La Défense), France ,"Solutions Linux", a two days professional exhibition dedicated to free software and open source. Half of the exposition hall was dedicated to professionals selling open source solutions, the other half to open source groups. In 2013 Solutions Linux was 5980 visitors and 180 stands. For quite along time, with BSDFrance, we participate to the event to help promoting FreeBSD and other BSDs to the visitors. Usually we made a large order to the FreeBSD mall before the event, then we sell all those stuff (t-shirts, caps and so on), but due to a lack of time we run a less abundant stand, but we have nice stickers ! few horns and stress balls. We also draws lots between donators, 4 paperback copies of the Michale Lucas books "sudo mastery" and "DNSSec Mastery". We had a lot of fun, exchanging with visitors and peoples from other projects and answer a lot of question, specially about pkg and the wip in the ports tree. We also collect 155 euros (about 210 USD) for the FreeBSD project. And of course we had 4 winners for the books \o/ ... plus someone who wants to exchange a price from another stand with one of the Michael's books. We Freeddy Dissaux (bsdsx), and me (rodrigo@) want to thanks all the volunteers who comes to help us. You can see a few pictures took during the event here[1]. I also have the full set here[2] Regards, - rodrigo [1] http://www.bebik.net/cgi-bin/album.pl?album=2014_SL_FreeBSD [2] http://www.bebik.net/cgi-bin/album.pl?album=2014SL From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 21 17:17:03 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF2B5707 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2014 17:17:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (relay5-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::197]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F2A8237C for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2014 17:17:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mfilter24-d.gandi.net (mfilter24-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.152]) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D120941C04F for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2014 19:17:00 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter24-d.gandi.net Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.197]) by mfilter24-d.gandi.net (mfilter24-d.gandi.net [10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2vQ32IBi54ks for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2014 19:16:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 10.58.1.145 Received: from webmail.gandi.net (unknown [10.58.1.145]) (Authenticated sender: mayuresh@kathe.in) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 873D941C056 for ; Sat, 21 Jun 2014 19:16:59 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 22:46:59 +0530 From: Mayuresh Kathe To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: it feels good to be back ... Reply-To: mayuresh@kathe.in Mail-Reply-To: mayuresh@kathe.in Message-ID: <01f1afa4f49cd01a0eaa0d136e946fb3@kathe.in> X-Sender: mayuresh@kathe.in User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/0.9.5 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 17:17:03 -0000 hello, i had mistakenly posted a similar mail to freebsd-questions. :) i am finally back in freebsd land, and it feels good. after my good experiences with freebsd (especially the mailing lists), i figured, it would be unwise to not give the other bsd systems a look. so, i went off and landed in netbsd land, and golly, it was a good experience, the community is quite friendly and the system feels quite zippy, but after using it a while, i felt uncomfortable, don't know what exactly, but, it just didn't feel like home. i then moved over to openbsd land, and golly, are they still grumpy out there! but their system has been improved to a very high degree, much better than what i tried out a year back, but again, it just didn't feel quite like home. so i came back to freebsd, and all seems well. the system is so well engineered and takes into consideration users needs from a very pragmatic point-of-view, that it feels quite natural working with it. so, thanks to the freebsd team and it's user community, for giving me a reason to continue with freebsd. :) best, ~mayuresh From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 22 22:20:16 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22F206D4 for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2014 22:20:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ie0-x22f.google.com (mail-ie0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E99FD2B4A for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2014 22:20:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ie0-f175.google.com with SMTP id tp5so5141094ieb.34 for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2014 15:20:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=TAHvreI6I+DKo4MBXnC81nYWqWCmevcu/RUr3MlCzP4=; b=RCdmYfYVWczFaeUkYr9wc8SI61rH70sTszJmaj0O7SIMCfXImndjZtaP/I3tn6Abbf hGbNXUsaULPlzQVGRPs7MehWgb+M1QMofQJkqS12rlEUziM2uTloY/Pq4Zw7d5HQ3btk bDfUsP+838ib8whkGynKQ4hL2bzgxACUvK9XdpT4ItfQN2Hrx6/jwNfo9S+WUkNkbYRU NdbfDfBpvHImPd0Wrv9UVKw8yQGmt0m64QunlZigv+Aytv3nypLcP5WYbcNqrWNm8Juc MxJZiu+Aye9wqrM4faSh6p1wY7PFMt1XZjZL8YcbZX2+QyHCsRUG7cQap9nysXHiQ9fV 2oSQ== X-Received: by 10.50.1.47 with SMTP id 15mr19988917igj.41.1403475615322; Sun, 22 Jun 2014 15:20:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.232.98 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Jun 2014 15:19:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Damian Vicino Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 18:19:55 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Call for talks BSDday 2014 To: FreeBSD Advocacy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.18 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 22:20:16 -0000 BSDday (Argentina) 2014 will be held 9th August 2014 in University of Buenos Aires' Faculty of natural and exact sciences. BSDday conference was created in 2008 and it is the only active conference in Argentina. Previous years attendants were mostly sysadmins, but developers and users are encouraged to participate too. Our conference budget is very tight, so no promises can be done at this point about covering any traveling expenses. Anyway, we are working in get more founding right now and it might be possible in some cases. The submits should be sent to cfp [at] bsdday.org before 1st august and include: - Talk title - Authors information - Estimated duration time for the talk. - Required previous knowledges. - Topic area - Contacts (phone and email) The conference usually redistributes the slides and video of the talks afterwards, so we also require you to chose a Licence for the distribution that allow us to redistribute it. Best regards, BSDday-Argentina organization committee From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 22 22:25:20 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7790F6B for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2014 22:25:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pa0-x229.google.com (mail-pa0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BCA22C0D for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2014 22:25:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id fb1so5113910pad.0 for ; Sun, 22 Jun 2014 15:25:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:message-id:date:from:reply-to:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=mti4lQUr6F2WlCavcLEUajVU6gChyZdZ3gEoklnIEbI=; b=HdJSpZLU6iphAG+W6lb5HnbutcUT7aWqHpaOqN7Uutyx8HKGqKErO3Fap47e35Ooci 60Xbu9unhOzTtEuMLNJIZkiLYOVOC1iYUlwF7LpwQ/C+Imb8p5+elALQSZThEpLPtdKm tXiG64bFpuhaXDt1+BQAbqz0Ys1ZMNhamH8g7IsHTwjjQnpHckO6J1IEPuk8uVUVYZpP mopGGfDo8bLxGPBLVwRyijb2CXFd+chdGjw33+hMMeRRKY9dIKZb99svDow1oudZ2eCV NE+E7jlQnIZm//1X/GIYKgZ7Re/Xq9hyoe5/cBTrWSvodJAwFDydbzNCpgSPCIztQ1QG dnog== X-Received: by 10.69.31.139 with SMTP id km11mr24077805pbd.63.1403475920157; Sun, 22 Jun 2014 15:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.7] (ppp59-167-128-11.static.internode.on.net. [59.167.128.11]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id vy5sm82639142pac.13.2014.06.22.15.25.17 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 22 Jun 2014 15:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Kubilay Kocak Message-ID: <53A757CA.9030407@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 08:25:14 +1000 From: Kubilay Kocak Reply-To: koobs@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mayuresh@kathe.in, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: it feels good to be back ... References: <01f1afa4f49cd01a0eaa0d136e946fb3@kathe.in> In-Reply-To: <01f1afa4f49cd01a0eaa0d136e946fb3@kathe.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 22:25:20 -0000 On 22/06/2014 3:16 AM, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: > hello, i had mistakenly posted a similar mail to freebsd-questions. :) > > i am finally back in freebsd land, and it feels good. > > after my good experiences with freebsd (especially the mailing lists), > i figured, it would be unwise to not give the other bsd systems a look. > > so, i went off and landed in netbsd land, and golly, it was a good > experience, the community is quite friendly and the system feels quite > zippy, but after using it a while, i felt uncomfortable, don't know > what exactly, but, it just didn't feel like home. > > i then moved over to openbsd land, and golly, are they still grumpy out > there! but their system has been improved to a very high degree, much > better than what i tried out a year back, but again, it just didn't feel > quite like home. > > so i came back to freebsd, and all seems well. > > the system is so well engineered and takes into consideration users needs > from a very pragmatic point-of-view, that it feels quite natural working > with it. > > so, thanks to the freebsd team and it's user community, for giving me > a reason to continue with freebsd. :) Welcome home Mayuresh, and thank you for taking the time to let us all know what keeps you coming back :) -- Koobs