From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 02:48:17 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB584C9869C for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 02:48:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from dnvrco-oedge-vip.email.rr.com (dnvrco-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.73.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "dnvrco-oedge-vip.email.rr.com", Issuer "dnvrco-oedge-vip.email.rr.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABC1A1078 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 02:48:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from [74.134.208.22] ([74.134.208.22:28558] helo=localhost) by dnvrco-omsmta01 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.9.48312 r(Core:3.6.9.0)) with ESMTP id 3E/8B-31287-AED68685; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 02:48:10 +0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 02:47:23 +0000 Message-ID: <3E.8B.31287.AED68685@dnvrco-omsmta01> From: "Thomas Mueller" To: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> X-RR-Connecting-IP: 107.14.64.6:25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 02:48:17 -0000 excerpt from O. Hartmann: > I think we face a political problem, not so much a man-power-driven one. nVidia provides > a BLOB, this BLOB works well even with the most recent hardware of theirs, but it lacks > in support for OpenCL and their own CUDA acceleration framework. I never understood why. > I asked nVidia - and they told me, that there is no request from the community ... so > far. That is a claim and I can not hold something against it, since it seems obvious > that I'm, with some other single people, are the only one compared to millions of others > - de facto Null so to speak. > And AMD? Well, 2006 or 2008 the company claimed to support the opensource community > better than before, but that left in history to be a insubstancial claim. Their hardware > might be a great deal even for GPGPU purposes with OpenCL, but this is Linux only as far > as I can tell. I too noticed that nVidia and AMD were not open-source-friendly with their graphics; remember Linus Torvalds' comments and cusses regarding nVidia. That's why I chose Intel on my last computer hardware purchases; I use Intel on-CPU graphics. Tom From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 03:42:56 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C864CC958C8 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 03:42:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from sender-of-o52.zoho.com (sender-of-o52.zoho.com [135.84.80.217]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BE681DC5 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 03:42:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1483242167420124.86554736082849; Sat, 31 Dec 2016 19:42:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2016 19:42:47 -0800 From: Matthew Macy To: "Thomas Mueller" Cc: "" Message-ID: <159581f5c78.11113616363629.8724982795793407213@nextbsd.org> In-Reply-To: <3E.8B.31287.AED68685@dnvrco-omsmta01> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <3E.8B.31287.AED68685@dnvrco-omsmta01> Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 03:42:56 -0000 ---- On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 18:47:23 -0800 Thomas Mueller wrote ---- > > excerpt from O. Hartmann: > > > I think we face a political problem, not so much a man-power-driven one. nVidia provides > > a BLOB, this BLOB works well even with the most recent hardware of theirs, but it lacks > > in support for OpenCL and their own CUDA acceleration framework. I never understood why. > > I asked nVidia - and they told me, that there is no request from the community ... so > > far. That is a claim and I can not hold something against it, since it seems obvious > > that I'm, with some other single people, are the only one compared to millions of others > > - de facto Null so to speak. > > > And AMD? Well, 2006 or 2008 the company claimed to support the opensource community > > better than before, but that left in history to be a insubstancial claim. Their hardware > > might be a great deal even for GPGPU purposes with OpenCL, but this is Linux only as far > > as I can tell. > > I too noticed that nVidia and AMD were not open-source-friendly with their graphics; remember Linus Torvalds' comments and cusses regarding nVidia. > > That's why I chose Intel on my last computer hardware purchases; I use Intel on-CPU graphics. > Yes, we can leave it to AMD to snatch defeat to defeat from the jaws of victory. Nonetheless, companies management turns over and their policies change. AMD is *currently* very much committed to bringing their open source Linux driver up to par with what they have on Windows. They are also committed to a fully open source high performance GPGPU compute stack. They should be rewarded for what their *current* policies are if we want to encourage that. If they again back off from that stance - then yes, leave them to their own devices. -M From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 06:53:30 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0374CC9C17B for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 06:53:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8433914D0 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 06:53:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id y21so256519484lfa.1 for ; Sat, 31 Dec 2016 22:53:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=csyazvNCvAR/uSrM0SIT7+kZ1Ch2CG0HEBT1WqzWs0c=; b=Vmomjwf6jM+exvQFpB0BT6sSQt6TVWhgIqYgxagikONL+977avtmkF+Dd83V2p5y6g MXd7PvQ0Z8KOmEGwQk8s5SaxpFX7DNIIRLrm6Cf1Frmt3KMkJSH5tQ2I/7ICHwSG9qz1 XJ1Tny2/AwD3lRQ3ixMOzz8JgnY71R3NvEafEZCd5bjwg41ktvLwxrmSIlb0ehFABD9E r2X47BEs4wDY8pPrKDnrE8hGCA/2ZsCkvyWgXBG/BSAJsgp/1EqvqF69aXoHta7ioNIk osPvUScfCfzRgnhNq4q9hNbJq5Lu3aSgwulzC1EyYln+1MU4rR2L1oFycjmTBwSAUNuf cibw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=csyazvNCvAR/uSrM0SIT7+kZ1Ch2CG0HEBT1WqzWs0c=; b=DeTUF2wV0wkCXzA/ikTm3NMF78X5Fmzgl6esMvnUvUGa61eiJW1dDRGoGKGBjLk5a+ OKyanAyOVjhUZR77yB9gXVv83j/5JosQd9JBSqHM1DTF1HjMSl7RNd+oN+++5FmDUwQC zZ0b6bu5HEZyrfuYDZpYypo7au87nGv6bhkIm5zFeO5ZNC6n0UySnSt16QIMgKeWXd6q CLzJcPzRy9waGWxH6FsWEV5CXACCTBsJAshfTezXgXB/3zq9TdEmT6ppnXB06LCa1DYM HQYBfdvvr92Gzle0O6HUQQCg1SSdcAGr8NvRgL3661tSMAtNhKiXRYAw/RhxOFVDhLfm TFQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJnWYQfNrDl+B0lvlnD5Iev6DYPQgs4d8TZTm7RkOTHZFd+jAshgHJVueUK5spoHH7vShxk5hubJ31Krg== X-Received: by 10.25.67.9 with SMTP id q9mr14797508lfa.6.1483253607226; Sat, 31 Dec 2016 22:53:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.79.88 with HTTP; Sat, 31 Dec 2016 22:53:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <159581f5c78.11113616363629.8724982795793407213@nextbsd.org> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <3E.8B.31287.AED68685@dnvrco-omsmta01> <159581f5c78.11113616363629.8724982795793407213@nextbsd.org> From: blubee blubeeme Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 14:53:26 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant To: Matthew Macy Cc: Thomas Mueller , x11-list freebsd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 06:53:30 -0000 In the past nvidia had closed sourced drivers in my opinion because they used public papers on gpu rendering techniques, built it into hardware and sorta duck taped it all together, amd sorta did the same thing as well so they were both guilty but nvidia got the lead and stayed ahead. Those reasons are going to be irrelevant in the vulkan dx12 years. What do I mean by that? nvidia always had a major gpu binary release around the time of major software release because nvidia would take the code from the game devs try it on their machines and would basically go in and rewrite shaders, fix edge case bugs, etc to make sure the next big game always ran on nvidia hardware, amd didn't have these resources so they were always sorta catching up. The product releases, people are praising nvidia for their awesome performance and amd get's the shaft in the public's eye. This had a lot to do with how previous generations opengl/ directx had huge driver layers that did all kinds of things to help with memory management, states, etc. in vulkan, dx12 land that's no longer the case because there is no driver layer to speak of. So it's my opinion that both chip makers will be more open source friendly because now if a developer writes crap programs it will just kill the card. There's no place; the driver implementation; for chip makers to go and do their magic. That responsibility falls on the developers shoulders and I think this is a great thing. Let both companies make the best hardware and have some base standard api to talk to the hardware, everything else is game. The reason vulkan took so long to release was because of this battle, nvidia understood what vulkan would mean; the ______ amount of dollars they invested in the driver team, outreach to make sure you get help from nvidia on your game, all those resources would be gone, while that's not great for nvidia it's good for the consumer and developers. Make the hardware and let people use it, stop selling gimped hardware and gating things such that you can charge a premium for non premium cards. I just migrated to a new laptop with a gtx1070 but i will also be getting a laptop with a vega card when those are available. I don't care who wins, if either "team" wins we all lose. They should worry about creating great products and good documentation and let the people do what they want with the hardware that they bought. That's my post new years rant. On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Matthew Macy wrote: > > > > ---- On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 18:47:23 -0800 Thomas Mueller < > mueller6722@twc.com> wrote ---- > > > > excerpt from O. Hartmann: > > > > > I think we face a political problem, not so much a man-power-driven > one. nVidia provides > > > a BLOB, this BLOB works well even with the most recent hardware of > theirs, but it lacks > > > in support for OpenCL and their own CUDA acceleration framework. I > never understood why. > > > I asked nVidia - and they told me, that there is no request from the > community ... so > > > far. That is a claim and I can not hold something against it, since > it seems obvious > > > that I'm, with some other single people, are the only one compared to > millions of others > > > - de facto Null so to speak. > > > > > And AMD? Well, 2006 or 2008 the company claimed to support the > opensource community > > > better than before, but that left in history to be a insubstancial > claim. Their hardware > > > might be a great deal even for GPGPU purposes with OpenCL, but this > is Linux only as far > > > as I can tell. > > > > I too noticed that nVidia and AMD were not open-source-friendly with > their graphics; remember Linus Torvalds' comments and cusses regarding > nVidia. > > > > That's why I chose Intel on my last computer hardware purchases; I use > Intel on-CPU graphics. > > > > Yes, we can leave it to AMD to snatch defeat to defeat from the jaws of > victory. > > Nonetheless, companies management turns over and their policies change. > AMD is *currently* very much committed to bringing their open source Linux > driver up to par with what they have on Windows. They are also committed to > a fully open source high performance GPGPU compute stack. They should be > rewarded for what their *current* policies are if we want to encourage > that. If they again back off from that stance - then yes, leave them to > their own devices. > > -M > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-x11@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 08:11:39 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C702CC9A8A2 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 08:11:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [192.108.105.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "StartCom Class 2 IV Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE0A81ED5 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 08:11:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (bones.soaustin.net [192.108.105.22]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A1EBD143F; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 02:11:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 02:11:36 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Matthew Macy Cc: Beeblebrox , "freebsd-x11@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant Message-ID: <20170101081136.GA5399@lonesome.com> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <1595742b65f.1050eb06862309.1096856657498598610@nextbsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1595742b65f.1050eb06862309.1096856657498598610@nextbsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 08:11:39 -0000 On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 03:41:46PM -0800, Matthew Macy wrote: > There are people contributing patches that sit idly in Bugzilla > indefinitely. [I'm not addressing Matthew directly here; he already knows most of this] And this is the key point: we need more committers. If the folks in this thread (and the similar one about numerical computation) saying "someone should do something!" worked towards being committers, we would all be better off. And, no, I don't believe that process is easy. But what people don't appreciate is that the large number of moving parts in the Ports Collection (times 7? architectures, times 4^W3 release branches) creates something intricate. There's a learning curve to being able to commit something that doesn't break anything else; the curve gets steeper the closer you get to the center of the infrastructure. And this work is pretty close to the center. (And never mind about trying to make all of that robust and consistent.) What frustrates me is that people don't understand that the players I know within FreeBSD *want* to have better graphics. I have *never* heard anyone say "just walk away from it". It's a question of how we can get there with the limited manpower we have available. Finally, I do know of at least one person within FreeBSD whose stated goal is to Make This Integration Happen in 2017. But I'm not crazy enough to think it is going to happen this week. mcl From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 09:36:41 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20419C9AA80 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 09:36:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x234.google.com (mail-wm0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A94CD1DE8 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 09:36:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x234.google.com with SMTP id k184so191664919wme.1 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 01:36:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fRhCtrxqKYI66YRsyTc+9tIj2rPp4T1mYGih5r7ilyI=; b=SWagXDOA6AXIaFNnTRDaEhNWHlNKAdkYLvCkCcYXPHoo9PuXzSun938iBFVmw84sr/ HPOPE6vJs1vMGHIXKzI6vKeDKwJDeHmANBW05BDFYoxYIGjG+Mvpkcl+7i6xoxWl9Uci JtitjN0rfMZvQyeIMqIeQpVyvOrvIHytoLQGCNwMD8qUY9w7B32Aaw7Qg5wKmHCq8fPT 44Ke+9MiEIdQ8MCLhRQ8zW0ODbwM19o9n92K0ikDYMCl2xD1+d0AgdIzu7q858KpjxRW 47Rh/JaA2jGdl4VQ1Y6cTXQ+PcEr77ieuwzr+XAK/yARQ1jUhr1W6j3bYteDTq7rGBUa z1Qg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fRhCtrxqKYI66YRsyTc+9tIj2rPp4T1mYGih5r7ilyI=; b=hsb5WB6UhojmfIeNFl2t7IgOWK4/I7xyZ0QfeX7dsbOd12YfZ65c+uTbIEZ5Gf26VP YCVZgitQmZaTEK0uNxUeRwChv5TMo8Qe9Y8XQmmY66SpkCbpz/1elcSWFTyes/BXGvq5 PEAu03s+fxk/BlG0cKDl4kPtlVOvQEwcMs5ehzSuLGsxxuyfZgEo9nGjvnz72sSFYmWJ 7oAZ1ZqZDPF/UO7dBjIwKsbN6dlQmvrSFa9THr6uMhF0oGNLCa6LFg3x2juSEpeojrBn NQZKIF0dfB03CZPUIb669eGi+bhYmWdqRtEY8BeYULMpxy41lMz5RzmLWcMbrlrnYWax 3Neg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJk5fLY+MwrDWAwulYjOnXT+L82TcNv7kab2VAVeOXMGL78FWs/a3MdtR8KFwyfaA== X-Received: by 10.28.8.12 with SMTP id 12mr44687368wmi.46.1483263398454; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 01:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ernst.home (p4FCA791E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [79.202.121.30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b15sm78716452wma.5.2017.01.01.01.36.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sun, 01 Jan 2017 01:36:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 10:36:36 +0100 From: Gary Jennejohn To: Mark Linimon Cc: Matthew Macy , "freebsd-x11@freebsd.org" , Beeblebrox Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant Message-ID: <20170101103636.5a4f518c@ernst.home> In-Reply-To: <20170101081136.GA5399@lonesome.com> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <1595742b65f.1050eb06862309.1096856657498598610@nextbsd.org> <20170101081136.GA5399@lonesome.com> Reply-To: gljennjohn@gmail.com X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.14.1 (GTK+ 2.24.29; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 09:36:41 -0000 On Sun, 1 Jan 2017 02:11:36 -0600 Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 03:41:46PM -0800, Matthew Macy wrote: > > There are people contributing patches that sit idly in Bugzilla > > indefinitely. > > [I'm not addressing Matthew directly here; he already knows most of this] > > And this is the key point: we need more committers. > > If the folks in this thread (and the similar one about numerical > computation) saying "someone should do something!" worked towards being > committers, we would all be better off. > > And, no, I don't believe that process is easy. > > But what people don't appreciate is that the large number of moving parts > in the Ports Collection (times 7? architectures, times 4^W3 release branches) > creates something intricate. There's a learning curve to being able to > commit something that doesn't break anything else; the curve gets steeper > the closer you get to the center of the infrastructure. > This is irrelevant to this post, but it's an error everyone seems to make and I find it quite annoying. A steep learning curve means that one learns quickly. A flat learning curve means that one needs longer to learn something. Using "steep learning curve" is exactly the opposite of what one is trying to state - that it takes greater effort and more time to understand something. Just picture the curve in your head. X is time and Y is amount learned. Obviously, a steep curve means that more is learned in a shorter time. I suppose that this incorrect usage comes from people imagining that the curve represents a hill, so steep must be harder. Wrong. My rant for 2017. > And this work is pretty close to the center. > > (And never mind about trying to make all of that robust and consistent.) > > What frustrates me is that people don't understand that the players I > know within FreeBSD *want* to have better graphics. I have *never* heard > anyone say "just walk away from it". It's a question of how we can get > there with the limited manpower we have available. > > Finally, I do know of at least one person within FreeBSD whose stated > goal is to Make This Integration Happen in 2017. > > But I'm not crazy enough to think it is going to happen this week. > -- Gary Jennejohn From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 09:42:26 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 279C7C9AC25 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 09:42:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan_partelly@rdsor.ro) Received: from smtp.rdsor.ro (smtp.rdsor.ro [193.231.238.25]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C122E10BE for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 09:42:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan_partelly@rdsor.ro) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.rdsor.ro (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BDA255562; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 11:36:30 +0200 (EET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at oradea.rdsnet.ro Received: from smtp.rdsor.ro ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.rdsor.ro [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id mON-Q7ADhoPC; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 11:36:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from email.rdsor.ro (ftp.rdsor.ro [193.231.238.4]) by smtp.rdsor.ro (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9D455560; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 11:36:30 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 11:36:38 +0200 From: dan_partelly To: Mark Linimon Cc: Matthew Macy , , Beeblebrox Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant In-Reply-To: <20170101081136.GA5399@lonesome.com> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <1595742b65f.1050eb06862309.1096856657498598610@nextbsd.org> <20170101081136.GA5399@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <7dc8c4d9d9cdcb9bc0521d53cf94e04b@193.231.238.8> X-Sender: dan_partelly@rdsor.ro User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.4-beta X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 09:42:26 -0000 > > And this is the key point: we need more committers. > With all due respect, you guys need to take more seriously the process and politics of contributions to FreeBSD. Especially the core, they should make this a priority. > If the folks in this thread (and the similar one about numerical > computation) saying "someone should do something!" worked towards being > committers, we would all be better off. Too what end ? I myself had a small contribution to the project, it sit close to 5 months in a differential form until Pedro looked at it, and later Adrian Chad said it is ok with it as well. I have more patches, but Im not extremely motivated up them for review. I will some day. The time frame for review is way too big to keep anyone interested. There are patches in various forms which address some issues of the OS (or at least tries to address them, but a discussion on them is warranted) which languish in limbo with *years*. Frankly, at this point, I look at "We need more committers" as empty rethorics. For it doesn't seem you guys do much to attract new contributors. It is a personal opinion, of course, nevertheless it is what I see. There is also something which I perceive as a lack of direction in the project. There are some side projects which should have never made it in the core OS in my opinion. Case in point, libxo integration experiment (and all 4 or 5 user-land utilities which where converted to use it. Someone from the core should take a long look at such projects. Questions to ask for example - what is the problem the change wants to solve ? - once the problem is identified, ask if the change really solves the problem as opposed to being some unnecessary distasteful hack. (i.e libxo vs libification of core OS utils so anyone can write easily their utils and even integrate libxo in them if they want) - is it necessary that this change is part of the OS, or would it be much better to keep it as a port ? - and if it should be part of the OS, should it be part of the OS (I seen a slide from a FreeBSD developer conference where somebody wanted libxo in the kernel. Even the fact that somebody had the audacity to think at that made me tremble with angst. - is it useful to OS users in general, or supports only a corner use case ? - is it orthogonal to the rest of OS features ? - is the implementation team committed to propagate the change to the entirety of the OS ? As opposed to 5 utils only, and let the rest rot in oblivion. - does it complicates system administration? Does it simply it ? > What frustrates me is that people don't understand that the players I > know within FreeBSD *want* to have better graphics. Yes, I want better graphics too. I run OSx now on my laptop, but Id rather have FreeBSD on it, save graphics state and out of the box ACPI & power management state. >>Finally, I do know of at least one person within FreeBSD whose stated >> goal is to Make This Integration Happen in 2017. An awesome goal. There are also some other extremely important changes which should be given priority. A modern init system to replaces the autoexec.bat style of OS initialization, a modern system wide notification bus like notifyd and a modern service management framework, one which allow easy management, introspection, fault management and fault reporting. For all the hate SystemD developers get, they did a great thing. Systemd might not be perfect, might overstep its boundaries in some places, but it is light years ahead the 45 years old init systems FreeBSD uses. Hopefully, FreeBSD will see the value of Jordan Hubbard and M. Macy work on trying to make those things happen. For without them, there isn't much future left, except for vendors who will take FreeBSD and mold it with their money in exactly what they want (Sony and Juniper come to my mind now) and never contribute back anything meaningful, which would help the OS in a significant way. > > And, no, I don't believe that process is easy. > > But what people don't appreciate is that the large number of moving parts > in the Ports Collection (times 7? architectures, times 4^W3 release > branches) > creates something intricate. There's a learning curve to being able to > commit something that doesn't break anything else; the curve gets steeper > the closer you get to the center of the infrastructure. > > And this work is pretty close to the center. > > (And never mind about trying to make all of that robust and consistent.) > > What frustrates me is that people don't understand that the players I > know within FreeBSD *want* to have better graphics. I have *never* heard > anyone say "just walk away from it". It's a question of how we can get > there with the limited manpower we have available. > > Finally, I do know of at least one person within FreeBSD whose stated > goal is to Make This Integration Happen in 2017. > > But I'm not crazy enough to think it is going to happen this week. > > mcl > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-x11@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 09:55:39 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0ABC9AE5F for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 09:55:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [192.108.105.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "StartCom Class 2 IV Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EC881479 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 09:55:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (bones.soaustin.net [192.108.105.22]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D4B87143F; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 03:55:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 03:55:36 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: dan_partelly Cc: Matthew Macy , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, Beeblebrox Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant Message-ID: <20170101095536.GA5573@lonesome.com> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <1595742b65f.1050eb06862309.1096856657498598610@nextbsd.org> <20170101081136.GA5399@lonesome.com> <7dc8c4d9d9cdcb9bc0521d53cf94e04b@193.231.238.8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7dc8c4d9d9cdcb9bc0521d53cf94e04b@193.231.238.8> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 09:55:39 -0000 On Sun, Jan 01, 2017 at 11:36:38AM +0200, dan_partelly wrote: > With all due respect, you guys need to take more seriously the process > and politics of contributions to FreeBSD. I've been trying to promote this for years and have made inadequate progress. What are your suggestions? > Especially the core, they should make this a priority. Everyone seems to think core "drives" the project. It doesn't. It is more of a governing body. Should it be more active? Opinions vary. > The time frame for review is way too big Agreed. I've not accomplished what I wanted to here, either. What are your suggestions? > There is also something which I perceive as a lack of direction in > the project. It's a collective, not a hierarchy. People work on what they want to work on. mcl From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 11:06:48 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD62C9AE66 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 11:06:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf0-x22c.google.com (mail-lf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87486100B for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 11:06:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id y21so257996710lfa.1 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 03:06:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/rh+kpMPU3/putAhxxcE6vQvUj7r4tiTQcFxkqW+s0E=; b=tjnFdspoZj6pQNdKs5SeJMCXvRo+d/MHE5fAceWtZRs0p+P+AShVjjNRfYc3vWt4te s7sQp3yYvmBBmCJnE0r4DY7ZCeT30WzZzLtCnZnH/5XZYB0CaKZ/tvW9sSz5jzdqNu4W br0471Yos9vGldRSdeE6pU8By8aVhUAQKIuSC0vsKvCdTkg3IKJlZTxFVO6uSt5IOSM4 TCcKlZsIw4vDrITmO+b9lm2G8QVqxFdYELYZwIw1JvFBFA/mPouKW36AsjVBhCN7nUlb 64xn/HfWyuEdDQ+SccnjhZpn/9kHttit4ZnxJsg7/dOznYoI2Q3ee4QJXUZbouaMqwBC pnPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/rh+kpMPU3/putAhxxcE6vQvUj7r4tiTQcFxkqW+s0E=; b=gUk0OPVpjBz0egIUSngE+GkR4A/BIJAYw8ntNmXEoX+H3hEETI38XLEp87IJUJ/EQy icw8PsXMbdl4w8zfXov4D2GUiR6/BjyzYSGvI2tjFbXpajXLzyL6ipqjRncZrR2JMKy0 hrdzarvL99OJ5EVLYQ7e5A38MzzeU25F4X7IGcqut5Ng4FbYLkgHH8Ylll1hHRvczBYi tH3e5GR8tI2mf6jH3/nfh1OAltxfTY/U4CnteaoKOl+HnjffW9ywJSktqj/4NQNmfw6m G2HkaQw+7PvxOWvOe0fJ4cccpgfWgsREaM6qXP2sSpE/6nH80kcxzfLesOqAJ3MU6cC8 J28g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIOvlnh/uBcCkdLF+JMG+i3w1SSx5WxjNb77hL/JCiMaRfE7Z6OLS2GlHNn13+y1JmodsZPqFYqOVX7gQ== X-Received: by 10.25.211.134 with SMTP id k128mr19570985lfg.118.1483268805407; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 03:06:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.79.88 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 03:06:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20170101095536.GA5573@lonesome.com> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <1595742b65f.1050eb06862309.1096856657498598610@nextbsd.org> <20170101081136.GA5399@lonesome.com> <7dc8c4d9d9cdcb9bc0521d53cf94e04b@193.231.238.8> <20170101095536.GA5573@lonesome.com> From: blubee blubeeme Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 19:06:44 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant To: Mark Linimon Cc: dan_partelly , x11-list freebsd , Beeblebrox Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 11:06:48 -0000 I volunteer to be a committer. I don't care how hard it is but it's something that I want to do. I agree with the sentiment above that if people want to submit code, there should be some way for things to have some reasonable time line to be looked at. This could be better organized maybe, I haven't run into that issue yet and I would like to avoid it. So there, someone who volunteers to start working on this issue at least nvidia specific for now. I don't need hand holding but a lot of people on this list can seem a bit jaded at times. Probably a lot of people come in start and never finish, I get that it's life but at least we can try to answer questions when people ask them, at least give them a few responses to let them know that they aren't talking to a wall. If you the list finds out the person is a waste of time then they can be ignored. But anyways, I found a simple piece of code that I plan on migrating to FreeBSD because it will solve some of my issues, the goal is to get it to FreeBSD as a port, here's the code: http://paste2.org/Av3zkMa8 I had a macbook first and freebsd updated trackpad support for mac is awesome. I get a different laptop with a generic synaptic touchpad and the support is pretty terrible, why? mac is such a niche device but so much work was put into porting the trackpad software but synaptics is everywhere and the support is god awful! I email the guy who started a long thread on the mailing list about testing the device, no response. anyways what I am saying is that if freebsd is looking for committers fine, at least be a lil responsive to people who ask questions on the list, sometimes people aren't stupid but like someone said freebsd has a lot of moving parts. I have llvm 37 38 39 on my machine just to build specific projects. I know my way around code not around BSD. When I asked about the AMD drivers the guy basically said, get caught up to where I am, then I'll help you. Go figure out how to get where I am.... yea thanks that's helpful. If FreeBSD wants more committers they don't have to make it a cake walk but it should at least be responsive to people who request things, especially if the request to add patches, no matter how elite the core is, their eliteness cannot overcome the wisdom of new perspectives. Could they be more responsive and not so i'm in my ivory tower looking down on your mortals? Best, Owen On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 5:55 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sun, Jan 01, 2017 at 11:36:38AM +0200, dan_partelly wrote: > > With all due respect, you guys need to take more seriously the process > > and politics of contributions to FreeBSD. > > I've been trying to promote this for years and have made inadequate > progress. What are your suggestions? > > > Especially the core, they should make this a priority. > > Everyone seems to think core "drives" the project. It doesn't. It is > more of a governing body. Should it be more active? Opinions vary. > > > The time frame for review is way too big > > Agreed. I've not accomplished what I wanted to here, either. What are > your suggestions? > > > There is also something which I perceive as a lack of direction in > > the project. > > It's a collective, not a hierarchy. People work on what they want to > work on. > > mcl > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-x11@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 13:21:52 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35F2C9A0B4 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 13:21:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from elferdo@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-x22a.google.com (mail-io0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A5851246 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 13:21:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from elferdo@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id p42so399283817ioo.1 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 05:21:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fE6NjLQ9R/s29m8NkgW58FT6NKzJ5U7HOHvnb5P2Mkc=; b=F+BndTpjlMzhfHks2AgJyvzwVlN1FB+i1bBGqktdL80Oo9W496MAYNQ2GQoYMZUIlQ uABQl5A62SQ9mcEW70Clnt/zy1HMQ33m3p9qKwSeiXcptzJSGYzG3Dg7/xe8SQwbGeEN OT0juphASHhbvuJCSlukgn5d3HfpFbZL9/lFBqskuBvt8ZVJ4PfCeJ3ZKI/4Qqa/0sX4 2PJ5hxOUIHiJAEyiF5LgkDOR0/TcFyhiI2uH65f+eLnLHzhR4tk18YLfO1ymXqQkZqJp IXq5QBfIdlykkhV4xGQoi9WUwxlEochPcCTWCiQRBepalV12CQIU/Tgooes9+bzTy8Bo shmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fE6NjLQ9R/s29m8NkgW58FT6NKzJ5U7HOHvnb5P2Mkc=; b=cn6Uie9WQYgUlwZAwieAlhY3NykDAaJVmYiZXRtQ7poI3Z6/joRuB1pB2EFFv0SDox m7C74/lRxoqHC+Y15B6jtLKQ7Pz+pTNLqj7iVp6BPVkZhMb6bR520EAL1AJSqhjczuq2 BMNTcDOFDKDBwE+Jnthd1Gsw52tZxijc8kIesC/i7gn9Qf1M/D6fgD/RZEUJwdaTQ/y6 x0KVTZ3pBWFonVYcH+9BSWqNKhUAPKPo9O641Qbd5fTSA4ZStbp0qeX8YHFaB6XCHU8n /2kV3t0689HFd+sMqF349crErcrfimuhAGjDzMu9O0QILKJquwaIG7erFRWttJLDV4QC 93DA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLL1giAf2Y1jCLmjmXXVxyizsUGh0LvfNxNosa9IIen3jZPAEEwOcjPh1tHQEleqmH/BqWB9LdnTuIv5g== X-Received: by 10.107.154.18 with SMTP id c18mr40206491ioe.202.1483276911612; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 05:21:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.36.43.67 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 05:21:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Fernando_Herrero_Carr=C3=B3n?= Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 14:21:51 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant To: Beeblebrox Cc: "O. Hartmann" , "freebsd-x11@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 13:21:52 -0000 2016-12-31 12:51 GMT+01:00 Beeblebrox via freebsd-x11 < freebsd-x11@freebsd.org>: > > Oliver: > I agree 100% with you. > I'm a desktop user [...] My use as it seems to be yours is primarily for > data analysis. More or less the same here, except that FreeBSD is my only OS (android on mobile). I also regret not being able to use my TOBAGO GPU under FreeBSD. As someone else pointed out, AMD seems more willing to collaborate with the open source community, and that's something we should show some appreciation for. I would like to contribute to any efforts towards bringing amdgpu support to FreeBSD, given my time restrictions, as pretty much anybody else, I guess. Cheers, Fernando From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 15:37:05 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FB2C9717F for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 15:37:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zaphod@berentweb.com) Received: from mail-pg0-x22b.google.com (mail-pg0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D546A18B5 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 15:37:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zaphod@berentweb.com) Received: by mail-pg0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id y62so143617351pgy.1 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 07:37:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=berentweb-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZtTgJBT6n/gudmffmnj7HomjlgvXLaQOFwrqjyZwcgY=; b=niAFFBBWldATE8ARw6SzruNJ7bBFUi2oRvjMlQ6JvQLfcsy6l6BTmFmWx5x8bzpCfJ Be94nImT0VWV22MP9twCiXsyQdcN3NPOgzMo++ajos14e0ygeTqjmM52StPwDo6nVIGZ MbWoN58kQLt/56vSzLsYIWcLTy4YrQzqqIL/Qcp77Sk4NeJ+crO+0IIxgs+EQ8QdPTmw EIH4rYKvPH+VpwMOV3Fd/QesH3SU02tyvx6uejV9xq1oERw4/1xYUVPAp731weeoE4wX HA5aM3tbnGqgg4iABIe1Cg2Rmwax+QOP/+XtPf8BSERMvGDgaiJQJLDb0RZgH2rFsMya ncWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZtTgJBT6n/gudmffmnj7HomjlgvXLaQOFwrqjyZwcgY=; b=EbM23f/kVgnwmmPe+AOK3+NIIdSJG3PR2CicDmYWf4hMf6ivEZbOu7vmiNEMxPUpm1 oAw2/WtIB6w5XPc9tmEMUsS7I1G0Qx7ZrU7hchUyFUG0RlQViVIRpvWMW37TVgE+mhaM DV1h+I860cR8tHPRxg4Uj9PQzwWEolDzII2BnRJmd7R+Wz+rzxl2uirCgKSf0CJJXo83 X7FouLMP/yxvAzSq5V/Awo8rPby7ll5uWs8OB6Dnd1CHQriEiBnEeYzTotlgei9kHtto hwaDtbu4W4eI+Faon0l+lumo4oU7RuhcTwSJX8ingVDPkW5znzTKcdH/gS/r4yOHt32W LDUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIhTqp4/pNDxNrnZg1PbiMtuuWgkMJVKuOXYzYK9eHxcvhJFLBop8PyQdxN6g2xig== X-Received: by 10.99.135.200 with SMTP id i191mr101049640pge.162.1483285024222; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 07:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from rsbsd.rsb ([88.232.253.185]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a11sm125714793pfe.96.2017.01.01.07.37.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sun, 01 Jan 2017 07:37:03 -0800 (PST) Sender: "Raif S. Berent" Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 18:36:53 +0300 From: Beeblebrox To: Fernando Herrero =?UTF-8?B?Q2FycsOzbg==?= Cc: "freebsd-x11@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant Message-ID: <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> In-Reply-To: References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 15:37:05 -0000 Interesting discussion; thank you for all comments. I have several questions: * Is TrueOS/PC-BSD ahead of FreeBSD on the Desktop? If so, why? The answer = is probably "depends on the card", but again, is it ahead of FreeBsd for ce= rtain cards and why? If it's because they have integrated Matt's work, why = has FreeBSD not opted to do so? * Does the problem have anything to do with the Kernel Compat Layer for Lin= ux (https://wiki.freebsd.org/linux-kernel)? I'm asking to understand the ex= tent of the issue.=20 * Other than that, perhaps we could try and slice this problem in the short= term from another angle: Which GPU cards work (and are expected to work with new hardware) as of now= ? If anything, this discussion shows that the Graphics Wiki page (https://w= iki.freebsd.org/Graphics) is inadequate for GPU selection. Perhaps it could= be updated to a parametrised format showing functions by column each GPU c= ard supports (rather than simply works"/"does not work"). For example, as an immediate solution to my problem I would prefer (as I as= sume most others would) to purchase a new card that is confirmed to be work= ing on multiple parameters rather than slog through a "hopefully soon" scen= ario for the next couple of years (I'm not on a laptop, btw). I'm still willing to contribute, but above solution would at least reduce f= rustration and increase my productivity. New systems would also benefit by = selecting decent cards and reducing noise to the developers/list. Regards. From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 18:38:42 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D24C9AFFD for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 18:38:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf0-x22b.google.com (mail-lf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3FE615E8 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 18:38:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id b14so261242807lfg.2 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 10:38:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=P3QtWNe4tjBuVLIX5GQwlGs4DprM9VKGBeQXXIrp/vs=; b=AKwBvbsssWLKmKSJza6xANOWKtLq0ZpltcSYhQNbKn6GwenZjVIinDH4r5jAIlzl53 h7LtdR0YSyO4pJmAgUzbbdxybBlk3sfk4Jj2KOHo7ZJxg7hJ5IZvIteyBdnpKkw5MGcF ha120CbyvnvD3LF5f2Kk6fvIUXMtnwuPf1+LwC/vk0+OlcLLzGXiPSehScZzHqUkkBaN IKHuZ7C0cIHzT4wh4gft4RTGMJSyV/0m8gDR7P8kVLkglQi/7lJ2LfV02TudpHRuf4Pt zNmlj9pMHt0RF8us4vXRt2G8MbFyTGHn7ZMzFpvUN9Lxo+2enowevGSvOpeY64wIe2Nh UAxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=P3QtWNe4tjBuVLIX5GQwlGs4DprM9VKGBeQXXIrp/vs=; b=Te0IWs5wXW7POa8y60xEerM05b0FzcQ0TIk7gPx70BxPawZgAbnHIuD+sXyRldS4Wo vVKQi9xPt+N8hUWv9SfBGwCMqFwu6B1SznUzaIvnFx2+vNNAGgaMouRfn1Pg/jMsN9Rk srvRjSjRui4vs2PHyjYmwOJwixXOV3JXVQSgJGa4Ll/2Jd3oQ72KffZse9ShnAA6CxUJ 2BACK8BRqYb87wRjuGusIn0M09bT5nLIcZTr81naB+U/p1j53V/h3zdt7nz6RUzixmOe PKdla3goDPUyWslGWdHcQuQjNur+b0JxeA8zsQuXOoovRI7G+7b0Iu1HCD+ENoBlC2ct gwuA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLTDp6BLMwhIOvmomKdc8A/iApVI/H9tfodUQ2MVnPyDKsZLqYJqe7d8KaSim0dLWChJLK9xVGAen/65w== X-Received: by 10.25.28.145 with SMTP id c139mr16067158lfc.167.1483295919374; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 10:38:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.79.88 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 10:38:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> From: blubee blubeeme Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 02:38:38 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant To: Beeblebrox Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Fernando_Herrero_Carr=C3=B3n?= , "freebsd-x11@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 18:38:42 -0000 This is a pretty interesting discussion indeed. I sometimes wonder how feasible it will be to maintain those linuxulator things. One reason why I came to FreeBSD was the way linux is headed. Fedora is almost useless if you want to avoid gnome and pulseaudio opensuse has runtime kernel patching but they didn't allow me to setup the machine w/o installing a DM, I just wanted to login and manually startx and they said I had to use some crazy config nonsense because "startx is dangerous" FreeBSD and linux seem to be going further and further apart, will it be more work to port the linux stuff to FreeBSD instead of running the linux stuff, is it going to turn into WINE? Is the linuxilator something that's maintainable/ expandable in the long term or will the complexity come to a point where it's more trouble than it's worth? I don't know the answer to that question but it's worth asking here in the public. I remember seeing a video where the guy said BSD didnt really have a direction developers just sorta work on what they want but I don't think this is totally true, the core team must have some direction they are pushing BSD, I would be interesting to hear their vision of BSD in 5 years. I agree that the FreeBSD graphics wiki is rough, I look at it and it's so outdated and then there's no real help of where to go. You come on here and ask and basically get told to kick rocks if you are even graced with a response. I can understand taking inspiration from linux, I think wayland could be cool but if we do like it, take the idea and make it BSD do we have to wait for them to create it and then we follow? Enough about that for now. On to the graphics card work, I have programed shaders and 3d things with opengl before but I really don't know or fully understand the intersection between the kernel and the hardware devices, especially since they are closed sorce; I will have to go learn that and see how to improve that situation on FreeBSD. The next steps that I can think of is trying to find some Nvidia evangelists and see if they are interested in working with FreeBSD and having their devices have better support. ========== I could use help here if anyone one this list is one or know anyone in nvidia, ping them or get me in touch with them plz ========== Best, Owen On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 11:36 PM, Beeblebrox via freebsd-x11 < freebsd-x11@freebsd.org> wrote: > Interesting discussion; thank you for all comments. > I have several questions: > > * Is TrueOS/PC-BSD ahead of FreeBSD on the Desktop? If so, why? The answer > is probably "depends on the card", but again, is it ahead of FreeBsd for > certain cards and why? If it's because they have integrated Matt's work, > why has FreeBSD not opted to do so? > > * Does the problem have anything to do with the Kernel Compat Layer for > Linux (https://wiki.freebsd.org/linux-kernel)? I'm asking to understand > the extent of the issue. > > * Other than that, perhaps we could try and slice this problem in the > short term from another angle: > Which GPU cards work (and are expected to work with new hardware) as of > now? If anything, this discussion shows that the Graphics Wiki page ( > https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics) is inadequate for GPU selection. > Perhaps it could be updated to a parametrised format showing functions by > column each GPU card supports (rather than simply works"/"does not work"). > > For example, as an immediate solution to my problem I would prefer (as I > assume most others would) to purchase a new card that is confirmed to be > working on multiple parameters rather than slog through a "hopefully soon" > scenario for the next couple of years (I'm not on a laptop, btw). > > I'm still willing to contribute, but above solution would at least reduce > frustration and increase my productivity. New systems would also benefit by > selecting decent cards and reducing noise to the developers/list. > > Regards. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-x11@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 20:05:20 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEAEDC9A6B4 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 20:05:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [192.108.105.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.soaustin.net", Issuer "StartCom Class 2 IV Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE8B21F42 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 20:05:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from lonesome.com (bones.soaustin.net [192.108.105.22]) by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D063F741; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 14:05:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2017 14:05:06 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Beeblebrox Cc: Fernando Herrero =?iso-8859-1?Q?Carr=F3n?= , "freebsd-x11@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant Message-ID: <20170101200506.GA6551@lonesome.com> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 20:05:20 -0000 On Sun, Jan 01, 2017 at 06:36:53PM +0300, Beeblebrox via freebsd-x11 wrote: > If it's because they have integrated Matt's work, why has FreeBSD not > opted to do so? You missed the part about: > Now that the diff with upstream has been reduced from 12,000-15,000+ > lines below 300-400 lines the "activation energy" to update has been > reduced by a factor of 5-10x. This is a recent development (past few weeks IIUC). I don't know of many people who would be willing to tackle a 15kline diff. There are many who could tackle 400 lines. (I guess Macy really _has_ been doing a lot of work ...) mcl From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 20:38:12 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FE83C9AF17 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 20:38:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from sender-of-o52.zoho.com (sender-of-o52.zoho.com [135.84.80.217]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DC031C0A for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 20:38:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1483303086085971.5189099231345; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 12:38:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 12:38:06 -0800 From: Matthew Macy To: "Beeblebrox" Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?=22Fernando_Herrero_Carr=C3=B3n=22?= , "freebsd-x11@freebsd.org" Message-ID: <1595bc0e7fd.104bb7c2f73595.7799477205099344822@nextbsd.org> In-Reply-To: <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 20:38:12 -0000 ---- On Sun, 01 Jan 2017 07:36:53 -0800 Beeblebrox via freebsd-x11 wrote ---- > Interesting discussion; thank you for all comments. > I have several questions: > > * Is TrueOS/PC-BSD ahead of FreeBSD on the Desktop? If so, why? The answer is probably "depends on the card", but again, is it ahead of FreeBsd for certain cards and why? If it's because they have integrated Matt's work, why has FreeBSD not opted to do so? That question goes to the heart of the challenges that lie with the FreeBSD developer model. When speaking to Krste Asanovic of RISC-V, an old colleague of sorts, about the reasons that FreeBSD has not fared as well as Linux over the decades, the point that resonated the most (or perhaps the only one that resonated) was the challenge of absorbing outside contributions. I've gone on at length in the past about the scalability issues of siloed committers vs lieutenants. In a nutshell, it is not a committer's responsibility to marshal in new work. There is much more of a "stick" for breaking / changing code with an import than there is a "carrot" for adding new functionality. At its core, it's a cultural issue. I don't know that it's fixable. When / if FreeBSD moves to git it will be *technically* easier to pull in contributions, but the liability and lack of incentive to do so will remain. > * Does the problem have anything to do with the Kernel Compat Layer for Linux (https://wiki.freebsd.org/linux-kernel)? I'm asking to understand the extent of the issue. Yes and no. In order for my "enhanced" linuxkpi to work a number of (small) changes to the core kernel need to be made. Getting those in without a commit bit simply takes time. I did have to make changes to the VM subsystem, but there is a new KPI that I can take advantage of. I have a patch to the linuxkpi to use the new "pg_populate", but the drivers don't yet work with said change. There is some GPL code that was imported out of expediency. However, "base" can remain legally "pure" by maintaining the extended linuxkpi, or at least the problematic bits, as a port (this has been my intention all along). Upstream drivers move faster than FreeBSD releases, by keeping linuxkpi/drm/{i915, radeon, amdgpu} we can release updates as soon as they come out for Linux. If someone feels strongly about keeping the linuxkpi BSD "pure", he can contribute by rewriting the pieces in question. > * Other than that, perhaps we could try and slice this problem in the short term from another angle: > Which GPU cards work (and are expected to work with new hardware) as of now? If anything, this discussion shows that the Graphics Wiki page (https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics) is inadequate for GPU selection. Perhaps it could be updated to a parametrised format showing functions by column each GPU card supports (rather than simply works"/"does not work"). It's pretty simple: if you need a discrete graphics card *today* you should buy Nvidia. If you want 95% stable integrated graphics you go with 11 on Haswell or earlier (it still panics on some WebGL code). If you can live with 80-85% you can use Broadwell or Skylake now with TrueOS or my repo. In a week or so when I announce drm-next with 4.9 you'll also have Kaby Lake support. I have made a commitment to myself to dogfood with AMD and not get lulled in to using Nvidia on FreeBSD. However, unless you've got an extremely high pain threshold like jmd (running amdgpu on his A12) or you have the chops to debug and hack the linuxkpi, it's not something I recommend. Over the last few weeks amdgpu has gone from insta-panic on startx to running fully accelerated with mesa 13 and stable for an hour or two. I'm optimistic that this will improve and will post to the list when I think it warrants wider use. > For example, as an immediate solution to my problem I would prefer (as I assume most others would) to purchase a new card that is confirmed to be working on multiple parameters rather than slog through a "hopefully soon" scenario for the next couple of years (I'm not on a laptop, btw). > > I'm still willing to contribute, but above solution would at least reduce frustration and increase my productivity. New systems would also benefit by selecting decent cards and reducing noise to the developers/list. I think the categories are straightforward. -M From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 20:49:45 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A030C9B15D for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 20:49:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from abi@abinet.ru) Received: from mail.abinet.ru (mail.abinet.ru [136.243.72.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A8D1FE8 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 20:49:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from abi@abinet.ru) Received: from [10.0.1.1] (unknown [10.0.1.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.abinet.ru (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2474C34923 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 20:49:44 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=abinet.ru; s=dkim; t=1483303784; bh=+zWams0NIiOTdKKvJ29LVsOV0x776nF3cbZGi+ZRoYk=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=BhUe8rHQu6Ka6VUh9j2YTk45gGxLyjx0uJiO87PmuqPP452gne8nTf+uBbq7VDxyj VQJ8Ae3WVwrJastkbEqvY0p2D4SB8NfdDGoWAyOvd79ahhM2Y2XSuJEq84tDKg6+HK GCFptVde4hSujACtu0+EsRIQPWyJSj0iDNfnTP4k= Message-ID: <58696BAD.9040200@abinet.ru> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 23:50:53 +0300 From: abi User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:25.8) Gecko/20151117 FossaMail/25.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> In-Reply-To: <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 20:49:45 -0000 On 01.01.2017 18:36, Beeblebrox via freebsd-x11 wrote: > Interesting discussion; thank you for all comments. > I have several questions: > > * Is TrueOS/PC-BSD ahead of FreeBSD on the Desktop? If so, why? The answer is probably "depends on the card", but again, is it ahead of FreeBsd for certain cards and why? If it's because they have integrated Matt's work, why has FreeBSD not opted to do so? Yes, it's ahead. They merged Matt branch. As for FreeBSD, who must adopt it ? FreeBSD has phabricator review system, I don't remember I saw review for this patch. Also, I tested Matt's branch on my Skylake laptop. I can't say intel driver in current state has some benefits against fb. The primary disadvantages of fb driver is lack of support for backlight and resume. The same applies for Matt's branch. Also, X crashing from time to time and I observed visual artifacts. If this is true for haswell and lower, I doubt branch will be committed without some sort of WITH_NEW_DRM knob. And I'm not sure this can be implemented using current ports infrastructure. > * Does the problem have anything to do with the Kernel Compat Layer for Linux (https://wiki.freebsd.org/linux-kernel)? I'm asking to understand the extent of the issue. It will die. Just when CentOS userland drops 2.6 kernel support. > > * Other than that, perhaps we could try and slice this problem in the short term from another angle: > Which GPU cards work (and are expected to work with new hardware) as of now? If anything, this discussion shows that the Graphics Wiki page (https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics) is inadequate for GPU selection. Perhaps it could be updated to a parametrised format showing functions by column each GPU card supports (rather than simply works"/"does not work"). Work for what? If you need cuda, nothing works. If you type on your laptop and watching ponies in youtube, intel works with fb driver. You will get full resolution and visually flawless picture. From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 20:53:01 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D457C9B2D1 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 20:53:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from sender-of-o52.zoho.com (sender-of-o52.zoho.com [135.84.80.217]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4493C12AD for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 20:53:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1483303974418588.736402893992; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 12:52:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 12:52:54 -0800 From: Matthew Macy To: "blubee blubeeme" Cc: "Beeblebrox" , "freebsd-x11@freebsd.org" Message-ID: <1595bce760d.c5a48b9473813.1749970069728099599@nextbsd.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 20:53:01 -0000 > I can understand taking inspiration from linux, I think wayland could be > cool but if we do like it, take the idea and make it BSD do we have to wait > for them to create it and then we follow? Enough about that for now. All the applications are tied to *a* framework. Wayland isn't intrinsically Linux specific, it's just that's the only platform that the graphics developers use. Wayland is only slowly becoming viable to X even with all the work being put in to it. I think that Ubuntu will eventually give up on Mir and switch. > On to the graphics card work, I have programed shaders and 3d things with > opengl before but I really don't know or fully understand the intersection > between the kernel and the hardware devices, especially since they are > closed sorce; I will have to go learn that and see how to improve that > situation on FreeBSD. We're lower on Maslow's than writing shaders. At this point we're happy to just keep the KMS drivers mostly working. To get an idea of just how much work is involved you might consider helping out with amdgpu or getting Nouveau to work on FreeBSD. I appreciate your enthusiasm but I don't think you understand the scale of the time commitment involved. If you are able to substantially contribute to making any of the KMS drivers work better and you don't let the inevitable frustrations of interacting with the community get to you or at least be reflected in your public interactions, being sponsored for a commit bit will happen as a matter of course. Sponsoring someone for a commit bit is a commitment of time and energy and is only taken for someone with an established track record - it is also very helpful to have a rapport with an existing committer (the lack of which is why many contributors end up languishing). > The next steps that I can think of is trying to find some Nvidia > evangelists and see if they are interested in working with FreeBSD and > having their devices have better support. Evangelists != money. If some data center operator tomorrow said that they'd buy 2000 pascal cards, but they had to be supported by FreeBSD, Nvidia would support would appear shortly thereafter. Unfortunately, that is not likely to happen. -M From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 21:00:09 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7A7AC9B39C for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 21:00:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8FE81504 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 21:00:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id C8685C9B39B; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 21:00:09 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C813BC9B39A for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 21:00:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@FreeBSD.org) Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org (kenobi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::16:76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6E621503 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 21:00:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@FreeBSD.org) Received: from bugs.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.118]) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id v01L01rm030015 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 21:00:09 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <201701012100.v01L01rm030015@kenobi.freebsd.org> From: bugzilla-noreply@FreeBSD.org To: x11@FreeBSD.org Subject: Problem reports for x11@FreeBSD.org that need special attention Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 21:00:09 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 21:00:09 -0000 To view an individual PR, use: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=(Bug Id). The following is a listing of current problems submitted by FreeBSD users, which need special attention. These represent problem reports covering all versions including experimental development code and obsolete releases. Status | Bug Id | Description ------------+-----------+--------------------------------------------------- In Progress | 188833 | [suspend/resume] Suspend/resume with Intel GMA HD In Progress | 214706 | devel/libdevq: Update to 0.0.4 Open | 211797 | x11-fonts/xfs: Add CPE information In Progress | 214580 | graphics/libdrm: Update to 2.4.74 New | 214581 | graphics/dri: Update the Mesa ports to 13.0.2 5 problems total for which you should take action. From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 21:05:53 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BAC8C9BAF2 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 21:05:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from abi@abinet.ru) Received: from mail.abinet.ru (mail.abinet.ru [136.243.72.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75E51EF2 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 21:05:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from abi@abinet.ru) Received: from [10.0.1.1] (unknown [10.0.1.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.abinet.ru (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4CD273495B for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 21:05:51 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=abinet.ru; s=dkim; t=1483304751; bh=BtpN6DR3GYKd9jXxzNKwf/ruCo8DitBMLqZZ5d2Pvvk=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=I+GnHxnFpbW2drEuyDxZTo4pSDJ/Ym3pnqehjrxAWKacX5+Zrui4G/oRYUkBT44EC oNHjlC0gYBqb/MZmXgvVRKy0+kNu7EYNIPxM6oAnsMv3E7b4YyWE00onIphm6sN1M4 Sckq+ArCb+0IWGRhJme2HykIBzQJ/nUg1yp3QYN8= Message-ID: <58696F74.2000703@abinet.ru> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2017 00:07:00 +0300 From: abi User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:25.8) Gecko/20151117 FossaMail/25.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> <1595bce760d.c5a48b9473813.1749970069728099599@nextbsd.org> In-Reply-To: <1595bce760d.c5a48b9473813.1749970069728099599@nextbsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 21:05:53 -0000 On 01.01.2017 23:52, Matthew Macy wrote: > Evangelists != money. If some data center operator tomorrow said that they'd buy 2000 pascal cards, but they had to be supported by FreeBSD, Nvidia would support would appear shortly thereafter. Unfortunately, that is not likely to happen. > It would be better if Nvidia drops support of FreeBSD. I remember we had nouveau in 7.x (2010 ?) but nvidia driver killed it. And it continue to haunt graphics subsystem, killing the enthusiasm to port amd or intel drivers. BSDs without access to nvidia blob are ahead of us even if they have much less manpower. From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sun Jan 1 21:07:54 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E21BC9BB47 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 21:07:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from sender-of-o52.zoho.com (sender-of-o52.zoho.com [135.84.80.217]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3FC61F77 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 21:07:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1483304864409177.03688672280657; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 13:07:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 13:07:44 -0800 From: Matthew Macy To: "abi" Cc: "" Message-ID: <1595bdc0a96.b508ef2f74041.1895406691949887756@nextbsd.org> In-Reply-To: <58696F74.2000703@abinet.ru> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> <1595bce760d.c5a48b9473813.1749970069728099599@nextbsd.org> <58696F74.2000703@abinet.ru> Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2017 21:07:54 -0000 ---- On Sun, 01 Jan 2017 13:05:58 -0800 abi wrote ---- > > On 01.01.2017 23:52, Matthew Macy wrote: > > Evangelists != money. If some data center operator tomorrow said that they'd buy 2000 pascal cards, but they had to be supported by FreeBSD, Nvidia would support would appear shortly thereafter. Unfortunately, that is not likely to happen. > > > It would be better if Nvidia drops support of FreeBSD. I remember we had > nouveau in 7.x (2010 ?) but nvidia driver killed it. And it continue to > haunt graphics subsystem, killing the enthusiasm to port amd or intel > drivers. BSDs without access to nvidia blob are ahead of us even if they > have much less manpower. Although it is nice to have a professionally supported driver, I frequently refer to the nvidia driver as a "trojan horse" because of the ensuing neglect of everything else. -M From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Mon Jan 2 03:27:06 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E49DC9A2EE for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2017 03:27:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf0-x22a.google.com (mail-lf0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14C5B1258 for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2017 03:27:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id y21so264473776lfa.1 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 19:27:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=x7T8U56w8E2a1xjgN/QBFm0VMIYM6QMG2oynt7J2qFo=; b=JigwZdqg9BUQPkUBB0KkTvI4CpML+sJTTKnoNBSJO9GtCzr6cNhRzzJG8L3b4M5pJc MbLIgrXDFzY9/xFomLd+92AZbPKvvxdMALcs8XSfHCDogUiYCt7nHKAk20AlXDJfukYc hP57Co3jTd3J6crs0/crWifb6IXUKV1NZk4L5IE57c/eDI/T00ppmDdU/huOCZBsPY2z z0Fa1Jhy9/JQzXSYJgoxIEyjOhB6UBW0b0FEdZyOhjR+zN98acZFcpkK3ljFPV0ghUXD RWpvGxZMx15yELrjn9U/J1iQvPQNLvF0rRnldW958z0Exd9YVEPGOz2iktGk1iaw97Wz 0/Lg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=x7T8U56w8E2a1xjgN/QBFm0VMIYM6QMG2oynt7J2qFo=; b=eKnUsB2AkOuf2tdaoi7s448fHPqOqYKrJv2m3gWqTbxdCHsCIGZNIhy35iQa1FbuIJ 9AwaVzisaEDLEnGo35kjdU57Puatqm68PV3jwL7ILMkUBgpRinlDc1PycYBDdOPqj5qQ oYMNtclR8tBbjf7OVRh8jkGdoNMRRVGLayq45KBDWepD14V/ZZwaWAihrLvyqsf3dsh7 cq/NzPhncwCixthFEtzkBkBmCgXOEw0asVtjX230BNcBLRvIdG9ZRAKZikEamcQ7Axz+ 2VpjeIZ6rOQC9GcO0JwszNhwOfZmY7I5+6i69z522KQuJj1MoIKzekY71nXMBFFSx0jd 8a2g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLxqWPXlS5ZCx3kL2ZdO/mq6/4NBIRRULiNgCyTlZHxbCarWH1htPqNBmwIULOtkqOBdiQf2JFeOAtdjw== X-Received: by 10.46.78.26 with SMTP id c26mr20117909ljb.46.1483327623667; Sun, 01 Jan 2017 19:27:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.79.88 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jan 2017 19:27:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1595bdc0a96.b508ef2f74041.1895406691949887756@nextbsd.org> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20170101183653.2c85698a@rsbsd.rsb> <1595bce760d.c5a48b9473813.1749970069728099599@nextbsd.org> <58696F74.2000703@abinet.ru> <1595bdc0a96.b508ef2f74041.1895406691949887756@nextbsd.org> From: blubee blubeeme Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 11:27:02 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant To: Matthew Macy Cc: abi , x11-list freebsd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2017 03:27:06 -0000 Matthew it doesn't matter how big the obstacles are, you either find away past the obstacle or die trying. Consider this thing a go, I'll be around. Best, Owen On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 5:07 AM, Matthew Macy wrote: > ---- On Sun, 01 Jan 2017 13:05:58 -0800 abi wrote ---- > > > > On 01.01.2017 23:52, Matthew Macy wrote: > > > Evangelists != money. If some data center operator tomorrow said that > they'd buy 2000 pascal cards, but they had to be supported by FreeBSD, > Nvidia would support would appear shortly thereafter. Unfortunately, that > is not likely to happen. > > > > > It would be better if Nvidia drops support of FreeBSD. I remember we had > > nouveau in 7.x (2010 ?) but nvidia driver killed it. And it continue to > > haunt graphics subsystem, killing the enthusiasm to port amd or intel > > drivers. BSDs without access to nvidia blob are ahead of us even if they > > have much less manpower. > > Although it is nice to have a professionally supported driver, I > frequently refer to the nvidia driver as a "trojan horse" because of the > ensuing neglect of everything else. > > -M > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-x11@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 06:15:04 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3EA2C9B01F for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 06:15:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vulpes.vvelox.net (vulpes.vvelox.net [96.95.67.25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86FB1718 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 06:15:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vvelox.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: kitsune) by vulpes.vvelox.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 549293791144 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 00:14:54 -0600 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 00:14:54 -0600 From: "Zane C. B-H." To: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant In-Reply-To: <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> Message-ID: <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> X-Sender: v.velox@vvelox.net User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.1.2 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 06:15:04 -0000 On 2016-12-31 09:03, Andrei wrote: > On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 07:11:51 -0600 > Mark Linimon wrote: > >> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 02:51:55PM +0300, Beeblebrox via freebsd-x11 >> wrote: >> > I'm sure the Foundation and developers have been debating whether to >> > drop desktop all together >> >> I have never heard of any such discussion. > Hm. You don't see that they don't hire professional programmers for > FreeBSD > graphics stack? > Just one useless person did some fork that unusable and wasted one > year of our time. > > Hope that in new year we will get new graphics stack in FreeBSD. > > Btw, happy new year! o.0 Wow! Now their is very much a crazy claim. Honestly this entire thread has been full of WTF. I've been using FreeBSD for desktop purposes since like late 2001/early 2002. The only issue I've ever had is X -configure does a shit job of picking defaults at times, but that is not a FreeBSD issue. Yes, X tends to lag a bit behind Linux, but all in all X is a much better experience on FreeBSD than Linux. One of the big thing that really stands out between the two is screen tearing is rare on FreeBSD compared to Linux. Lets not also forget how long it took Linux to get their ducks in a row with unfucking their packaged fonts. X works well enough under FreeBSD that I honestly use it for gaming via wine. Personally I am proud and happy with what our X team has done with it, especially with Intel chipset support since like 10, making using it on a broader number of laptops all that more awesome. In 11 it is completely goat fragging wiz with the new KMS stuff. <3 From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 16:33:14 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E9EC9D9B1; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 16:33:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek.cedro@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi0-x242.google.com (mail-oi0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE2D41539; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 16:33:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek.cedro@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi0-x242.google.com with SMTP id u15so70908536oie.3; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 08:33:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=c+lS3KV5zuwb+q781Dx2diwWgEFDVqkbWm16yKQBsXQ=; b=pOUsu02odGW98uPmTHZnDmJxIoTG2p/yziXf1BX0dlHLaCcbs/CXEMZ7x7JTJZaQZq wZYR38+jBrpsLr68DtJsIG2xj9H7/LodQWmG32Ir9ZtmJ+r9twDkXCdP+vKux4EM7rzm j9s3SAy1fiFw1cmrijS1sZ6tQp51wpC8HXzSrLf7is9Fr2FqI4PqV5swe3NTjVoTkiFv TjV7AxgBlm1fPD+mrI24WnxgOh3revi5YMPRGU2ZXAmX0llmjvw9xHWHsoDuvUB2SgKz RFhoUWyMALQV6gUumo17KYZSf8avHDexcWnjMJkPhQVdLXRuFgj0D/UU0JSCOcQE2Yqq kS8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=c+lS3KV5zuwb+q781Dx2diwWgEFDVqkbWm16yKQBsXQ=; b=h9Ox/Xvt+k7mhPGOrccPNaOuClhCXM9wE9D23yyIU4bDnCRsBeXWj3KyVj/DsLx+ll cq2lOuGo+YwkEK4NrqxCYi9fcxUr0goUDMPjbm2Fc70LatBrtaNYna3zRyWtTERO5HqA sndXYgtjPckNyMu7E87wR/V5GF6RJw1EEznJpU0ep8BBz4f2LXaF0X8TAowXLdhTsrHK 5OuwxvPQzsexiE8Mf4//WhSBvAuJEATu/3VSGGgzRyNQ718WFgKAqhFikNCK+gq5mB2j tCaN4hxrHBEWfKnrl/sCv2B33KcljqjeSyuqS5obpCiQ3dQMWEtDHDAkv3yY1/RN+GCt 0vaw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXILGiH5EDw3HcKsk5C64AtDwETXhaVWLNgXVPHU0mVIl6f7Q8om6mPWGfX9Nx8E3LYR4qyW9v9Xy1U4YQ== X-Received: by 10.157.26.60 with SMTP id a57mr28669840ote.17.1483461193258; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 08:33:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: tomek.cedro@gmail.com Received: by 10.157.7.118 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 08:32:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <586BCD0C.9010608@saunalahti.fi> References: <30914667-8700-c07f-cdca-db7279183d5c@bananmonarki.se> <5ee1d8b7-2318-ba7f-6a4f-f950c538afa8@bananmonarki.se> <586BCD0C.9010608@saunalahti.fi> From: CeDeROM Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:32:52 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: CuonxPKtC6i7NV-aL63fRUBcK_Q Message-ID: Subject: Re: Xorg NVIDIA + Intel HYPERBOOK To: Heikki Lindholm Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , Alexey Dokuchaev , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 16:33:14 -0000 On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Heikki Lindholm wrote: > I got one stubborn radeon card to work with a simple xorg.conf: > > Section "Device" > Identifier "Card0" > Driver "radeon" > BusID "PCI:08:00:0" > EndSection > > Without the above xorg.conf it found no screens although it did detect to > card according to the X logs. The PCI BusID has to be the correct one of > course. > -- Heikki Lindholm thanks, already tried that, no change. nvidia chipset gets found, but then card does not see any screen, all are disconnected.. already sent bug report to nvidia.. but i should be able to use either intel or at least vesa card.. ..or there must be some unsupported video switch on the line xorg cannot support yet.. what i found, lubuntu 16.04 lts also cannot start xorg, kali 2016.2 can. my FreeBSD on hyperbook does not see any screen on nvidia,intel,vesa. maybe xorg itself. -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 17:00:03 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CAE6C9D517; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:00:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bah@bananmonarki.se) Received: from feeder.usenet4all.se (1-1-1-38a.far.sth.bostream.se [82.182.32.53]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 796EE190A; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 16:59:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bah@bananmonarki.se) Received: from testbox.news4all.se (testbox.usenet4all.se [10.0.0.3]) by feeder.usenet4all.se (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id v03Gxu6f038392; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:59:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from bah@bananmonarki.se) Subject: Re: Xorg NVIDIA + Intel HYPERBOOK To: CeDeROM , Heikki Lindholm References: <30914667-8700-c07f-cdca-db7279183d5c@bananmonarki.se> <5ee1d8b7-2318-ba7f-6a4f-f950c538afa8@bananmonarki.se> <586BCD0C.9010608@saunalahti.fi> Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev , FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org From: Bernt Hansson Message-ID: <25fcfa45-60e5-40a6-82b5-440ebe713063@bananmonarki.se> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:59:56 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 17:00:03 -0000 On 2017-01-03 17:32, CeDeROM wrote: > On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Heikki Lindholm wrote: >> I got one stubborn radeon card to work with a simple xorg.conf: >> >> Section "Device" >> Identifier "Card0" >> Driver "radeon" >> BusID "PCI:08:00:0" >> EndSection >> >> Without the above xorg.conf it found no screens although it did detect to >> card according to the X logs. The PCI BusID has to be the correct one of >> course. >> -- Heikki Lindholm > thanks, already tried that, no change. > > nvidia chipset gets found, but then card does not see any screen, all > are disconnected.. > already sent bug report to nvidia.. > > but i should be able to use either intel or at least vesa card.. > ..or there must be some unsupported video switch on the line xorg > cannot support yet.. > > what i found, lubuntu 16.04 lts also cannot start xorg, kali 2016.2 can. > my FreeBSD on hyperbook does not see any screen on nvidia,intel,vesa. > > maybe xorg itself. Do you use the driver from ports or the binary blob from nvidia. From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 17:16:07 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1913C9DBD3 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:16:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from isoa@kapsi.fi) Received: from mail.kapsi.fi (mx1.kapsi.fi [IPv6:2001:1bc8:1004::1:25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56E5215BA for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 17:16:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from isoa@kapsi.fi) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kapsi.fi; s=20161220; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject; bh=rXB9SPeRDEfZ7l8phn11y2350os2pmTvlweF9vIdiQU=; b=sbFQJW6edxW6vL8gXvPgn5V/7uZCuWmoC/DNW9/462WNWVdFP7LD0xFm5E6uuw00AIy1xWdnnWW2GbDpwKmaMrmcLAkaSY2vegVrnyuodOwxXC/N6E3C6YQELoXkExlCOmoh0Go4E2cyn+mqB2rhLlnBCzXZrrg4TK1yedQ+1RZLJsGOAcq7iu1KnSdexufXHG4lOo1Y4knij3We16O2eupvtJ4Wpt5klSllFpSvxJN1Z8tCstttiVuvcT7H8cGHROw/v4SFOiSC2Ig0kAHQ+XhAMWM/UJD/4pMYqTtXrGb1daCQEW0jJGAJji71KCeXIOa0SnQj/PXg2OsOXsmSgg==; Received: from dsl-jklbrasgw1-54fb0c-179.dhcp.inet.fi ([84.251.12.179] helo=[192.168.255.112]) by mail.kapsi.fi with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cOSgt-0003qd-2O for freebsd-x11@freebsd.org; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 19:16:03 +0200 Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant To: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> From: Arto Pekkanen Message-ID: <1a7e2450-ca75-8047-3efb-d3ae12483295@kapsi.fi> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 19:15:53 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TCmkMHX2kviIEAkLS2eUBDAtoB4tkXa1Q" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 84.251.12.179 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: isoa@kapsi.fi X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.kapsi.fi); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 17:16:07 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --TCmkMHX2kviIEAkLS2eUBDAtoB4tkXa1Q Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nJKFTkCTmnfFkoBuu7p0v4jPd1fQQNeOk"; protected-headers="v1" From: Arto Pekkanen To: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Message-ID: <1a7e2450-ca75-8047-3efb-d3ae12483295@kapsi.fi> Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> In-Reply-To: <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> --nJKFTkCTmnfFkoBuu7p0v4jPd1fQQNeOk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The official stable FreeBSD 11 works just fine on Intel Ivy Bridge -era hardware. Might work even on some newer, but I never bothered to test since Ivy Bridge laptops and rigs are so cheap and powerful. Don't know how well Mr. Macy's newest branch works on newer machines, never got to testing it because I've so many other projects I am working = on. I'd be fine with FreeBSD as desktop if any of the full feature browsers worked properly. Currently both Firefox and Chromium have stability issues, and the rest of the browsers work even worse. Well, except for Opera, which is now obsolete. I would like to fix these issues if I could. Thus far been only able to send PRs. On 3.1.2017 8:14, Zane C. B-H. wrote: > On 2016-12-31 09:03, Andrei wrote: >> On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 07:11:51 -0600 >> Mark Linimon wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 02:51:55PM +0300, Beeblebrox via freebsd-x11 >>> wrote: >>> > I'm sure the Foundation and developers have been debating whether t= o >>> > drop desktop all together >>> >>> I have never heard of any such discussion. >> Hm. You don't see that they don't hire professional programmers for >> FreeBSD >> graphics stack? >> Just one useless person did some fork that unusable and wasted one >> year of our time. >> >> Hope that in new year we will get new graphics stack in FreeBSD. >> >> Btw, happy new year! >=20 > o.0 >=20 > Wow! Now their is very much a crazy claim. >=20 > Honestly this entire thread has been full of WTF. >=20 > I've been using FreeBSD for desktop purposes since like late 2001/early= > 2002. The only issue I've ever had is X -configure does a shit job of > picking defaults at times, but that is not a FreeBSD issue. >=20 > Yes, X tends to lag a bit behind Linux, but all in all X is a much > better experience on FreeBSD than Linux. One of the big thing that > really stands out between the two is screen tearing is rare on FreeBSD > compared to Linux. Lets not also forget how long it took Linux to get > their ducks in a row with unfucking their packaged fonts. >=20 > X works well enough under FreeBSD that I honestly use it for gaming via= > wine. >=20 > Personally I am proud and happy with what our X team has done with it, > especially with Intel chipset support since like 10, making using it on= > a broader number of laptops all that more awesome. In 11 it is > completely goat fragging wiz with the new KMS stuff. <3 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-x11@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" --=20 Arto Pekkanen --nJKFTkCTmnfFkoBuu7p0v4jPd1fQQNeOk-- --TCmkMHX2kviIEAkLS2eUBDAtoB4tkXa1Q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlhr3EwACgkQTBivhqtJa27j6AD9Hf4H9zOI3vbYFStG+qcHiT+b d/u7ExufZB6vDev00PoA/jtjKCZdNeF3sQ766okl73HVpqkUb+ZCcf6wAkrmjav9 =H+dC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TCmkMHX2kviIEAkLS2eUBDAtoB4tkXa1Q-- From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 18:33:04 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52879C9DC7F for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 18:33:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsmith@xs4all.nl) Received: from lb2-smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net (lb2-smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net [194.109.24.28]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "*.xs4all.nl", Issuer "GlobalSign Domain Validation CA - SHA256 - G2" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E81A5182C for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 18:33:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsmith@xs4all.nl) Received: from slackbox.erewhon.home ([83.162.243.5]) by smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net with ESMTP id TuXq1u00407iGuj01uXr28; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 19:31:51 +0100 Received: from rsmith (uid 1001) (envelope-from rsmith@xs4all.nl) id 123a4 by slackbox.erewhon.home (DragonFly Mail Agent v0.11+); Tue, 03 Jan 2017 19:31:50 +0100 Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 19:31:50 +0100 From: Roland Smith To: "Zane C. B-H." Cc: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant Message-ID: <20170103183149.GA86111@slackbox.erewhon.home> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="envbJBWh7q8WU6mo" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> X-GPG-Fingerprint: 1A2B 477F 9970 BA3C 2914 B7CE 1277 EFB0 C321 A725 X-GPG-Key: http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/pubkey.txt X-GPG-Notice: If this message is not signed, don't assume I sent it! User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 18:33:04 -0000 --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 12:14:54AM -0600, Zane C. B-H. wrote: > On 2016-12-31 09:03, Andrei wrote: > > On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 07:11:51 -0600 > > Mark Linimon wrote: > >=20 > >> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 02:51:55PM +0300, Beeblebrox via freebsd-x11 > >> wrote: > >> > I'm sure the Foundation and developers have been debating whether to > >> > drop desktop all together > >>=20 > >> I have never heard of any such discussion. Would the Foundation be willing to sponsor a developer to work on X? I'd be willing to donate toward that. > Honestly this entire thread has been full of WTF. Second that. > I've been using FreeBSD for desktop purposes since like late 2001/early= =20 > 2002. The only issue I've ever had is X -configure does a shit job of=20 > picking defaults at times, but that is not a FreeBSD issue. I've been using FreeBSD amd64 on desktops and laptops since 2004 (5.3).=20 Mostly on Radeon GPU's. On the whole, I'd say X works fine. > Yes, X tends to lag a bit behind Linux, Given limited manpower, that is pretty much a given. Especially since Linux graphics seem (IMO) to be in a permanent state of flux. > but all in all X is a much > better experience on FreeBSD than Linux. One of the big thing that > really stands out between the two is screen tearing is rare on FreeBSD > compared to Linux. I cannot recall ever seeing screen tearing on FreeBSD. > X works well enough under FreeBSD that I honestly use it for gaming via > wine. > > Personally I am proud and happy with what our X team has done with it, Ditto. > especially with Intel chipset support since like 10, making using it on > a broader number of laptops all that more awesome. In 11 it is > completely goat fragging wiz with the new KMS stuff. <3 The new KMS works fine with my Radeons. Roland --=20 R.F.Smith http://rsmith.home.xs4all.nl/ [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciated] pgp: 5753 3324 1661 B0FE 8D93 FCED 40F6 D5DC A38A 33E0 (keyID: A38A33E0) --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEV1MzJBZhsP6Nk/ztQPbV3KOKM+AFAlhr7g8ACgkQQPbV3KOK M+Drlw/6AjyvnvZ9F8ebzho+224Nox8xZWYloqP5QuQCTI5XBbHPtPrYbpKX4h/j UID5LVvEY6L3G26OthO5ZSAe06DQnG4SlfWQVbRjUyAWER2OJU4S5khZRnWTtgow dsw1FvfSZhpPl1aGm0SAzD+fZlq223b0rhcDJDfLPRogpQhyrx5o1vHrMncvfC2e AjbakBMb4MYw5410XqLEH4Jr8OBZjQ4LX+Jq7j+WvOQ8cyOpAP6T4NZ3B2Oaqq2I iIj2tQHut0wVJ8FJfj5pz4Vn+Ka608ZuXs7ub9bBAJdRQy4SaiiQIwlMdmZQXw5H jHMtI6u7bTxqLZ6iFTnsggPDpSMb1DS99PWQcA4kIZSwTJAzIdpHngoSAm5RRWIT lIFz+XKRhrxy2U9g29diehV4xgQ60tzWLmTyhb9D9PPk5wwuhmjZ9z7fQFBlMF7G V21xQqP7LzbTUx+xlrJ0aDPRbJ6LtynXuy75G/ud+6CD7W8K2fVl+evX7p0L4wpG M8ZOelc2Jmthhs9QhiEFhBuc7xMHlvOyk2BHWqXSe6h3OZauqAdsOa9iBmE1wHNh l1nVNmzfr0LvVDheAsWbF7DJp4qZZdoYAL+IG8DJs/k8MLkzhebSDmccurvaRL/0 mGSqQhN4XzYZfNjVCj47hIBjYlHY51lO4HOe3ojAPdxIjkm/JxM= =i2cc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo-- From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 19:03:11 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB0AC9DC8C for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 19:03:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81DB71FBC for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 19:03:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id y21so290919865lfa.1 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:03:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SHwLFyBk2cFkknuaj/ZLdJUmELGJNCqMLrPVVPxI6jk=; b=CodDpLbcizVqCToqX/aaof2ooQCFg5Z1SLOwSmiFkXAKYWM2SzUJf5gBeQDlkwO5D+ oEpKfENlg4NmcRFqEUaOcYllbLhEmvxAZBvEOHcizTIZR+CfiLpPJ0/HsUvcKH9M1yvm HgujSe+BrwiiEODzUQEvrfVqe7zj/52dg7h6fqQrDLpqWqqdvIvO4jbOs1t03F5KB6ol ZMpds8etRr78Gmltz2a1BdbbMrkEJZ1XyGB04mIBntJYVXRnsedCSNB/xJgWc/FPfTM/ rpYRdYVw1z2DK3Oms07WDUB1dihBrEeJgr+kbRHWmmlm0wHe2uz86aemRsLePec1a97Y 3HQg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SHwLFyBk2cFkknuaj/ZLdJUmELGJNCqMLrPVVPxI6jk=; b=fYHxaoUyhZbph1mPmUC19u1MJDeK5Ja9mJamwuuux8XrDAviYjTiOPRdg/eAe8vsZ9 vDEiSVVJRwowEk+FwhbGUMl7CwdtfIcq0CFtfxBVf7/i9yy69qdjE1WxNYXu6P1Jo00u VTUYkdrL0CyTjl9ZowsWdTq/IF+GWitP2yDAmjHztTGX4dfaThSChdBasdn1QqoyVUFG s4pzecQkht5LAu7w3bqs76hGyCzHQK2Hc7VvvzeuB+drg3CktuaY33InbUhBYIWuePEO tNqNbtkktgxGUFseDT7kNlXNl5N78DaVBj3D73PlSlMzlirIX+Ya3XjVPLsatp5gbBgI TUkA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIq3Z9dffLiHe8RgI/k7IkYhtLH3HnLeDvNRwOKkrry8oijRcjqxiZ9phqFZme3Bq/2RF3Eb5BgF2C1Gw== X-Received: by 10.25.215.199 with SMTP id q68mr17306557lfi.47.1483470188216; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:03:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> <20170103183149.GA86111@slackbox.erewhon.home> In-Reply-To: <20170103183149.GA86111@slackbox.erewhon.home> From: blubee blubeeme Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 19:02:57 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant To: Roland Smith , "Zane C. B-H." Cc: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 19:03:11 -0000 I've never liked lines of code as a measure of how good software is. I like challenges. Best, Owen On Wed, Jan 4, 2017, 02:33 Roland Smith wrote: > On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 12:14:54AM -0600, Zane C. B-H. wrote: > > On 2016-12-31 09:03, Andrei wrote: > > > On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 07:11:51 -0600 > > > Mark Linimon wrote: > > > > > >> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 02:51:55PM +0300, Beeblebrox via freebsd-x11 > > >> wrote: > > >> > I'm sure the Foundation and developers have been debating whether to > > >> > drop desktop all together > > >> > > >> I have never heard of any such discussion. > > Would the Foundation be willing to sponsor a developer to work on X? I'd be > willing to donate toward that. > > > Honestly this entire thread has been full of WTF. > > Second that. > > > I've been using FreeBSD for desktop purposes since like late 2001/early > > 2002. The only issue I've ever had is X -configure does a shit job of > > picking defaults at times, but that is not a FreeBSD issue. > > I've been using FreeBSD amd64 on desktops and laptops since 2004 (5.3). > > Mostly on Radeon GPU's. > > On the whole, I'd say X works fine. > > > Yes, X tends to lag a bit behind Linux, > > Given limited manpower, that is pretty much a given. Especially since Linux > graphics seem (IMO) to be in a permanent state of flux. > > > but all in all X is a much > > better experience on FreeBSD than Linux. One of the big thing that > > really stands out between the two is screen tearing is rare on FreeBSD > > compared to Linux. > > I cannot recall ever seeing screen tearing on FreeBSD. > > > X works well enough under FreeBSD that I honestly use it for gaming via > > wine. > > > > Personally I am proud and happy with what our X team has done with it, > > Ditto. > > > especially with Intel chipset support since like 10, making using it on > > a broader number of laptops all that more awesome. In 11 it is > > completely goat fragging wiz with the new KMS stuff. <3 > > The new KMS works fine with my Radeons. > > Roland > -- > R.F.Smith http://rsmith.home.xs4all.nl/ > [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciated] > pgp: 5753 3324 1661 B0FE 8D93 FCED 40F6 D5DC A38A 33E0 (keyID: A38A33E0) > From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 19:35:22 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC8BC9D9D0 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 19:35:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from sender-of-o52.zoho.com (sender-of-o52.zoho.com [135.84.80.217]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 330771C33 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 19:35:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1483472106600953.0039545627398; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 11:35:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:35:06 -0800 From: Matthew Macy To: "gurenchan" Cc: "Roland Smith" , "Zane C. B-H." , Message-Id: <15965d3f462.e563526350116.951917747823032795@nextbsd.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> <20170103183149.GA86111@slackbox.erewhon.home> Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail X-Zoho-Virus-Status: 2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 19:35:22 -0000 =20 =20 Before commenting further you should really dig in to what is t= here now. See sys/dev/drm2 in 11/12 and drivers/gpu/drm & sys/compat/linuxk= pi in my drm-next branches.---- On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:02:57 -0800 blubee = blubeeme wrote ----I've never liked lines of code as a= measure of how good software is. I like challenges. Best, Owen On Wed, J= an 4, 2017, 02:33 Roland Smith wrote: > On Tue, Jan 03,= 2017 at 12:14:54AM -0600, Zane C. B-H. wrote: > > On 2016-12-31 09:03, And= rei wrote: > > > On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 07:11:51 -0600 > > > Mark Linimon wrote: > > > > > >> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 02:51:55PM += 0300, Beeblebrox via freebsd-x11 > > >> wrote: > > >> > I'm sure the Founda= tion and developers have been debating whether to > > >> > drop desktop all= together > > >> > > >> I have never heard of any such discussion. > > Woul= d the Foundation be willing to sponsor a developer to work on X? I'd be > w= illing to donate toward that. > > > Honestly this entire thread has been fu= ll of WTF. > > Second that. > > > I've been using FreeBSD for desktop purpo= ses since like late 2001/early > > 2002. The only issue I've ever had is X = -configure does a shit job of > > picking defaults at times, but that is no= t a FreeBSD issue. > > I've been using FreeBSD amd64 on desktops and laptop= s since 2004 (5.3). > > Mostly on Radeon GPU's. > > On the whole, I'd say X= works fine. > > > Yes, X tends to lag a bit behind Linux, > > Given limite= d manpower, that is pretty much a given. Especially since Linux > graphics = seem (IMO) to be in a permanent state of flux. > > > but all in all X is a = much > > better experience on FreeBSD than Linux. One of the big thing that= > > really stands out between the two is screen tearing is rare on FreeBSD= > > compared to Linux. > > I cannot recall ever seeing screen tearing on F= reeBSD. > > > X works well enough under FreeBSD that I honestly use it for = gaming via > > wine. > > > > Personally I am proud and happy with what our = X team has done with it, > > Ditto. > > > especially with Intel chipset sup= port since like 10, making using it on > > a broader number of laptops all = that more awesome. In 11 it is > > completely goat fragging wiz with the ne= w KMS stuff. <3 > > The new KMS works fine with my Radeons. > > Roland > --= > R.F.Smith http://rsmith.home.xs4all.nl= / > [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciate= d] > pgp: 5753 3324 1661 B0FE 8D93 FCED 40F6 D5DC A38A 33E0 (keyID: A38A33= E0) > _______________________________________________ freebsd-x11@freebsd.o= rg mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 To u= nsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 21:17:52 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B5AC9E64F for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:17:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf0-x22d.google.com (mail-lf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 142CB18CE for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:17:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id t196so293577501lff.3 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 13:17:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zSzl9V1OYECp1XWNavzGhsMm9nHVy3kPbvOziyRWC38=; b=tAlmo02jNzUYvua4jyRKwxEJFXkfuVORbIdWpKytVK1CIYTP403msTCEfqxyt2dHsJ 24Vk5LdtEA6rAI+tPg+1OkZrJ+TwofBEKumEhPogzaiSGyzZX2eHLVOVbHrqYzEdgt7l KyEz54yziiwPeNBe9EGC/GgUM8Fgjq9IcTqgzoIiBMmljoa5xnpsZp2UH8qrsCEHEL7U k0tkBizmTB55GBm065TDPak8z7P3AjTn7HbNcr4ZDbndd7iq5C/6JSh+vC7tzHpHljn6 lft7PVsuuhhNDPhC/5ZLlN56hIRzxY6abvnf9d8Ul4HtVtOhnPvV7JCQQOdAxt7D0ZXn /oqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zSzl9V1OYECp1XWNavzGhsMm9nHVy3kPbvOziyRWC38=; b=NewRmykXoLMw7PoDk6uScdr6L27+eVmysS8d1C07nPHqUXKmiyGkDVuYl2a1B7LKkO owGnVYmVlu6o/bIc/Ufl4bfVJQ+RbZ2br9uVd6igNFEqTUhZi9wlO6hkWiBouJL1wauf prbM6UeqmzsTa8wfcPybGVImXnuJRHek9iwvP8We5BiEeNxTU+ESJCE+2wBHnkgPYXLi 9h3FaTEeTClcWU1/Z53mSKlR6BjS5s/B2iUfxeP5QZSPOAgWzkOS/vll9mbVenREjgpD jym3B4xp8dFMdP/ZQFdakxGerSvlhZRLzoq7KGYlEjlFotBFJHpeTG7p/Ch3zRNL+Bhx LiAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKfyS98FOow0rRGfIwL+qicfirbYX493XJVyRRCogpIbxqs2LPFMoaoTrwgHauNlTXQsLjzBwwIvOnL6A== X-Received: by 10.25.211.134 with SMTP id k128mr23213196lfg.118.1483478268903; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 13:17:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.79.88 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:17:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <15965d3f462.e563526350116.951917747823032795@nextbsd.org> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> <20170103183149.GA86111@slackbox.erewhon.home> <15965d3f462.e563526350116.951917747823032795@nextbsd.org> From: blubee blubeeme Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 05:17:47 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant To: Matthew Macy Cc: Roland Smith , "Zane C. B-H." , x11-list freebsd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 21:17:52 -0000 I saw a talk that I thought was pretty cool dealing w/ x on linux, messaged the guy. The conversation went like this: Hi Eric I watched your talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhO3dHL7GEY I am using FreeBSD and wanted to start improving the situation over here. It seems that with linux putting more of their graphics code into the kernel and BSD cannot share that code, at least not easily I am trying to develop a plan to move forward. Are you still working on glamor and the accelerated x? Also what about the Linux KVM that strips x down to just a tiny shell. Do you have some time to talk? I'd like to get caught up on the current situation around these things in order to have a better way to move forward with graphics on BSD. Best, Owen ======= blubee blubeeme writes: > Hi Eric > > I watched your talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhO3dHL7GEY > > I am using FreeBSD and wanted to start improving the situation over here. > It seems that with linux putting more of their graphics code into the > kernel and BSD cannot share that code, at least not easily I am trying to > develop a plan to move forward. BSDs could try to keep porting the Linux kernel code back, which I guess a couple of people have been trying, but without many active graphics developers the best solution for open source desktops is to switch to Linux. It's what I did back when I finally realized that nobody else around me cared about open source desktop FreeBSD. ======= That statement makes me a bit sad but I do understand. People want to be productive, I moved to freebsd from Linux because it seems Linux is going in a direction where you do things the way the DE says or you're in for pain. It's going to take work, a lot of it to change things but I'm getting caught up and I want to improve the graphics stack on BSD systems. Can I ping you now and again to ask about some things? One thing that is a little annoying is that even though KMS, GEB, etc are all open since its only Linux most of the implantation is based on the Linux kernel, this isn't good for BSD since their kernels are different. It would be nice if each function would just document what should happen and leave the implantation up to the driver writers. Does that sound unreasonable? Best, Owen ======= blubee blubeeme writes: > That statement makes me a bit sad but I do understand. People want to be > productive, I moved to freebsd from Linux because it seems Linux is going > in a direction where you do things the way the DE says or you're in for > pain. > > It's going to take work, a lot of it to change things but I'm getting > caught up and I want to improve the graphics stack on BSD systems. > > Can I ping you now and again to ask about some things? I'm not interested in participating in discussions of how to help the BSDs with graphics. ======= I understand, thanks for you time and the video presentation. Best, Owen -------------------------------------------------------- Now, when that's the response from the guys working on graphics for Linux, would I be wrong to be skeptical of continually "porting" Linux code to BSD? Does it make sense and do you think your efforts will be sustainable and easy for someone else to maintain? Best, Owen On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 3:35 AM, Matthew Macy wrote: > Before commenting further you should really dig in to what is there now. > See sys/dev/drm2 in 11/12 and drivers/gpu/drm & sys/compat/linuxkpi in my > drm-next branches. > > > > ---- On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:02:57 -0800 blubee blubeeme< > gurenchan@gmail.com> wrote ---- > > I've never liked lines of code as a measure of how good software is. I > like > challenges. > > Best, > Owen > > On Wed, Jan 4, 2017, 02:33 Roland Smith wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 12:14:54AM -0600, Zane C. B-H. wrote: > > > On 2016-12-31 09:03, Andrei wrote: > > > > On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 07:11:51 -0600 > > > > Mark Linimon wrote: > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 02:51:55PM +0300, Beeblebrox via > freebsd-x11 > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > I'm sure the Foundation and developers have been debating whether > to > > > >> > drop desktop all together > > > >> > > > >> I have never heard of any such discussion. > > > > Would the Foundation be willing to sponsor a developer to work on X? I'd > be > > willing to donate toward that. > > > > > Honestly this entire thread has been full of WTF. > > > > Second that. > > > > > I've been using FreeBSD for desktop purposes since like late > 2001/early > > > 2002. The only issue I've ever had is X -configure does a shit job of > > > picking defaults at times, but that is not a FreeBSD issue. > > > > I've been using FreeBSD amd64 on desktops and laptops since 2004 (5.3). > > > > Mostly on Radeon GPU's. > > > > On the whole, I'd say X works fine. > > > > > Yes, X tends to lag a bit behind Linux, > > > > Given limited manpower, that is pretty much a given. Especially since > Linux > > graphics seem (IMO) to be in a permanent state of flux. > > > > > but all in all X is a much > > > better experience on FreeBSD than Linux. One of the big thing that > > > really stands out between the two is screen tearing is rare on FreeBSD > > > compared to Linux. > > > > I cannot recall ever seeing screen tearing on FreeBSD. > > > > > X works well enough under FreeBSD that I honestly use it for gaming > via > > > wine. > > > > > > Personally I am proud and happy with what our X team has done with it, > > > > Ditto. > > > > > especially with Intel chipset support since like 10, making using it > on > > > a broader number of laptops all that more awesome. In 11 it is > > > completely goat fragging wiz with the new KMS stuff. <3 > > > > The new KMS works fine with my Radeons. > > > > Roland > > -- > > R.F.Smith http://rsmith.home.xs4all.nl/ > > [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much > appreciated] > > pgp: 5753 3324 1661 B0FE 8D93 FCED 40F6 D5DC A38A 33E0 (keyID: A38A33E0) > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-x11@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 21:27:02 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B618EC9E82B for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:27:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from sender-of-o52.zoho.com (sender-of-o52.zoho.com [135.84.80.217]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71CEC1031 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:27:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1483478809842129.44997795557902; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:26:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 13:26:49 -0800 From: Matthew Macy To: "blubee blubeeme" Cc: "Roland Smith" , "Zane C. B-H." , "x11-list freebsd" Message-ID: <159663a3ce5.1150200c6170891.7342168662165756909@nextbsd.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> <20170103183149.GA86111@slackbox.erewhon.home> <15965d3f462.e563526350116.951917747823032795@nextbsd.org> Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 21:27:02 -0000 ---- On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 13:17:47 -0800 blubee blubeeme wrote ---- > I saw a talk that I thought was pretty cool dealing w/ x on linux, messaged the guy. The conversation went like this: > Hi Eric > I watched your talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhO3dHL7GEY > I am using FreeBSD and wanted to start improving the situation over here. It seems that with linux putting more of their graphics code into the kernel and BSD cannot share that code, at least not easily I am trying to develop a plan to move forward. > Are you still working on glamor and the accelerated x? Also what about the Linux KVM that strips x down to just a tiny shell. > Do you have some time to talk? I'd like to get caught up on the current situation around these things in order to have a better way to move forward with graphics on BSD. > Best,Owen=======blubee blubeeme writes: > > > Hi Eric > > > > I watched your talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhO3dHL7GEY Although he has made countless valuable contributions to FreeBSD and open-source graphics in the past, Eric Anholt is reported to have actively blackballed FreeBSD when he worked at Intel because he so deeply resented the focus of other developers on making Nvidia's closed-source driver work on FreeBSD. Anything he says is to be taken with a grain of salt. He is right in so far as doing *new development* takes a lot of man-hours, which by definition means a fair amount of corporate sponsorship. There is only small amounts of intermittent funding for graphics on FreeBSD just to keep it on life support. If you want to positively contribute to this discussion and the community, I feel strongly that you should focus on enabling *vendor developed* drivers to work on FreeBSD. Only once we achieve that to our collective satisfaction can we talk about the bigger picture of adding unique value to FreeBSD or advancing the state of the art. -M > > I am using FreeBSD and wanted to start improving the situation over here. > > It seems that with linux putting more of their graphics code into the > > kernel and BSD cannot share that code, at least not easily I am trying to > > develop a plan to move forward. > > BSDs could try to keep porting the Linux kernel code back, which I guess > a couple of people have been trying, but without many active graphics > developers the best solution for open source desktops is to switch to > Linux. It's what I did back when I finally realized that nobody else > around me cared about open source desktop FreeBSD. > =======That statement makes me a bit sad but I do understand. People want to be productive, I moved to freebsd from Linux because it seems Linux is going in a direction where you do things the way the DE says or you're in for pain. > It's going to take work, a lot of it to change things but I'm getting caught up and I want to improve the graphics stack on BSD systems. > Can I ping you now and again to ask about some things? > One thing that is a little annoying is that even though KMS, GEB, etc are all open since its only Linux most of the implantation is based on the Linux kernel, this isn't good for BSD since their kernels are different. > It would be nice if each function would just document what should happen and leave the implantation up to the driver writers. Does that sound unreasonable? > Best, > Owen > > > =======blubee blubeeme writes: > > > That statement makes me a bit sad but I do understand. People want to be > > productive, I moved to freebsd from Linux because it seems Linux is going > > in a direction where you do things the way the DE says or you're in for > > pain. > > > > It's going to take work, a lot of it to change things but I'm getting > > caught up and I want to improve the graphics stack on BSD systems. > > > > Can I ping you now and again to ask about some things? > > I'm not interested in participating in discussions of how to help the > BSDs with graphics. > =======I understand, thanks for you time and the video presentation. > Best, > Owen > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > Now, when that's the response from the guys working on graphics for Linux, would I be wrong to be skeptical of continually "porting" Linux code to BSD? Does it make sense and do you think your efforts will be sustainable and easy for someone else to maintain? > > > Best, > Owen > > On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 3:35 AM, Matthew Macy wrote: > > Before commenting further you should really dig in to what is there now. See sys/dev/drm2 in 11/12 and drivers/gpu/drm & sys/compat/linuxkpi in my drm-next branches. > > > > ---- On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:02:57 -0800 blubee blubeeme wrote ---- > I've never liked lines of code as a measure of how good software is. I like > challenges. > > Best, > Owen > > On Wed, Jan 4, 2017, 02:33 Roland Smith wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 12:14:54AM -0600, Zane C. B-H. wrote: > > > On 2016-12-31 09:03, Andrei wrote: > > > > On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 07:11:51 -0600 > > > > Mark Linimon wrote: > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 02:51:55PM +0300, Beeblebrox via freebsd-x11 > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > I'm sure the Foundation and developers have been debating whether to > > > >> > drop desktop all together > > > >> > > > >> I have never heard of any such discussion. > > > > Would the Foundation be willing to sponsor a developer to work on X? I'd be > > willing to donate toward that. > > > > > Honestly this entire thread has been full of WTF. > > > > Second that. > > > > > I've been using FreeBSD for desktop purposes since like late 2001/early > > > 2002. The only issue I've ever had is X -configure does a shit job of > > > picking defaults at times, but that is not a FreeBSD issue. > > > > I've been using FreeBSD amd64 on desktops and laptops since 2004 (5.3). > > > > Mostly on Radeon GPU's. > > > > On the whole, I'd say X works fine. > > > > > Yes, X tends to lag a bit behind Linux, > > > > Given limited manpower, that is pretty much a given. Especially since Linux > > graphics seem (IMO) to be in a permanent state of flux. > > > > > but all in all X is a much > > > better experience on FreeBSD than Linux. One of the big thing that > > > really stands out between the two is screen tearing is rare on FreeBSD > > > compared to Linux. > > > > I cannot recall ever seeing screen tearing on FreeBSD. > > > > > X works well enough under FreeBSD that I honestly use it for gaming via > > > wine. > > > > > > Personally I am proud and happy with what our X team has done with it, > > > > Ditto. > > > > > especially with Intel chipset support since like 10, making using it on > > > a broader number of laptops all that more awesome. In 11 it is > > > completely goat fragging wiz with the new KMS stuff. <3 > > > > The new KMS works fine with my Radeons. > > > > Roland > > -- > > R.F.Smith http://rsmith.home.xs4all.nl/ > > [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciated] > > pgp: 5753 3324 1661 B0FE 8D93 FCED 40F6 D5DC A38A 33E0 (keyID: A38A33E0) > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-x11@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 21:37:43 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32EE9C9ECB8 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:37:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B7F319A5 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:37:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id t196so293860670lff.3 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 13:37:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=irjgMZV18Bi3VDux7ZI2+31NxWvUwjeg6skb8nXafDk=; b=qvoE3B0W/vyq7lNruDG1bDZ6tDBX0ZWZXo6ctICxys4FFp2GebSHjOAoFktFK4bfJU DxPSNJ4JUp/0oTdR1GdOJXQLFNPllwWmZu6jQHymN9ydYyuQrQo2KdwBwSWxBnX8vgP1 UMFSxbrX/XYaCRtMrLqgEekFBX4J+U/Oo4r3ZsdVzRE8N7+FOgRKVo2mTKiaaP9b+7Xg /Kd/0C66QgMn5TDpo09rqw3PXbfjjrkubCMNZFR0gCDtqB1OFCq3grtl9a5lh7U28VKe FFNd0Xv5fCfrtEb94sj6VvmiVFUNHO/DKTRdBRd0So9KjhI5o5f1E1YklDILnX5d0x0C ga2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=irjgMZV18Bi3VDux7ZI2+31NxWvUwjeg6skb8nXafDk=; b=VoIuiJ8s1VadLuP0rOg9zzkm4IfrGSWYfqwqr/RzaW+BWFv+wvLcK5GBd44s6jjaFx 4H4hBZn2ABSXfIbHONldC8QrJ4vKkhCrPkj2c+irLyNXIwnbt6ED7472aJb2pN28JDQO IObZZUJXw2dVQu2sTzFYzCs88OyfZXUUAXNPa3ZYBLCR+i6QTuxEeHqDDW2eEk7AJRqz /GTtYjgJsnKIjyRVh45aiF9fhlbFdZg1YmLiWa7QwopyFon4TK/fDAWYXjbMjV7UTLAg 90X/n1m/p+476k2MfY/1U6NzpXCX19hsZomQFayRGQ/lW2mPOF8g9KiDcCZB8IQ1kBOA eS4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJZnCxlGPy0vnQsnZBNiOjTPIt2ByTOxcJCvkRLlNpy7OxPxT1LQsGU4Zl/ARDX1byTcL3waWS6gQy1rg== X-Received: by 10.25.216.214 with SMTP id r83mr18265764lfi.3.1483479460730; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 13:37:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> <20170103183149.GA86111@slackbox.erewhon.home> <15965d3f462.e563526350116.951917747823032795@nextbsd.org> <159663a3ce5.1150200c6170891.7342168662165756909@nextbsd.org> In-Reply-To: <159663a3ce5.1150200c6170891.7342168662165756909@nextbsd.org> From: blubee blubeeme Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 21:37:30 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant To: Matthew Macy Cc: Roland Smith , "Zane C. B-H." , x11-list freebsd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 21:37:43 -0000 Well, knowing things like this up front would be helpful or is it just insider knowledge from people who were around at that time this stuff was going on. These are genuine questions I'm asking. There's no reason for any corporation to fund BSD graphics work so I'm not even thinking about that. I doubt there's any funds to pay even a single developer. The more you look around the more it seems like there's a lot more to this issue. I am going to make contributions but I'd like to avoid reinventing the wheel but I also don't want for freebsd to be dependent on things outside its control which seems nuts. Imagine if freebsd moved a large portion of the network stack to their kernel and then was like, that's how it'll be from here on out... Anyways that's neither here nor there. Best, Owen On Wed, Jan 4, 2017, 05:26 Matthew Macy wrote: > > > > ---- On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 13:17:47 -0800 blubee blubeeme < > gurenchan@gmail.com> wrote ---- > > I saw a talk that I thought was pretty cool dealing w/ x on linux, > messaged the guy. The conversation went like this: > > Hi Eric > > I watched your talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhO3dHL7GEY > > I am using FreeBSD and wanted to start improving the situation over > here. It seems that with linux putting more of their graphics code into the > kernel and BSD cannot share that code, at least not easily I am trying to > develop a plan to move forward. > > Are you still working on glamor and the accelerated x? Also what about > the Linux KVM that strips x down to just a tiny shell. > > Do you have some time to talk? I'd like to get caught up on the current > situation around these things in order to have a better way to move forward > with graphics on BSD. > > Best,Owen=======blubee blubeeme writes: > > > > > Hi Eric > > > > > > I watched your talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhO3dHL7GEY > > Although he has made countless valuable contributions to FreeBSD and > open-source graphics in the past, Eric Anholt is reported to have actively > blackballed FreeBSD when he worked at Intel because he so deeply resented > the focus of other developers on making Nvidia's closed-source driver work > on FreeBSD. Anything he says is to be taken with a grain of salt. He is > right in so far as doing *new development* takes a lot of man-hours, which > by definition means a fair amount of corporate sponsorship. There is only > small amounts of intermittent funding for graphics on FreeBSD just to keep > it on life support. > > If you want to positively contribute to this discussion and the community, > I feel strongly that you should focus on enabling *vendor developed* > drivers to work on FreeBSD. Only once we achieve that to our collective > satisfaction can we talk about the bigger picture of adding unique value to > FreeBSD or advancing the state of the art. > > > -M > > > > > I am using FreeBSD and wanted to start improving the situation over > here. > > > It seems that with linux putting more of their graphics code into the > > > kernel and BSD cannot share that code, at least not easily I am > trying to > > > develop a plan to move forward. > > > > BSDs could try to keep porting the Linux kernel code back, which I guess > > a couple of people have been trying, but without many active graphics > > developers the best solution for open source desktops is to switch to > > Linux. It's what I did back when I finally realized that nobody else > > around me cared about open source desktop FreeBSD. > > =======That statement makes me a bit sad but I do understand. People > want to be productive, I moved to freebsd from Linux because it seems Linux > is going in a direction where you do things the way the DE says or you're > in for pain. > > It's going to take work, a lot of it to change things but I'm getting > caught up and I want to improve the graphics stack on BSD systems. > > Can I ping you now and again to ask about some things? > > One thing that is a little annoying is that even though KMS, GEB, etc > are all open since its only Linux most of the implantation is based on the > Linux kernel, this isn't good for BSD since their kernels are different. > > It would be nice if each function would just document what should > happen and leave the implantation up to the driver writers. Does that sound > unreasonable? > > Best, > > Owen > > > > > > =======blubee blubeeme writes: > > > > > That statement makes me a bit sad but I do understand. People want to > be > > > productive, I moved to freebsd from Linux because it seems Linux is > going > > > in a direction where you do things the way the DE says or you're in > for > > > pain. > > > > > > It's going to take work, a lot of it to change things but I'm getting > > > caught up and I want to improve the graphics stack on BSD systems. > > > > > > Can I ping you now and again to ask about some things? > > > > I'm not interested in participating in discussions of how to help the > > BSDs with graphics. > > =======I understand, thanks for you time and the video presentation. > > Best, > > Owen > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Now, when that's the response from the guys working on graphics for > Linux, would I be wrong to be skeptical of continually "porting" Linux code > to BSD? Does it make sense and do you think your efforts will be > sustainable and easy for someone else to maintain? > > > > > > Best, > > Owen > > > > On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 3:35 AM, Matthew Macy wrote: > > > > Before commenting further you should really dig in to what is there > now. See sys/dev/drm2 in 11/12 and drivers/gpu/drm & sys/compat/linuxkpi in > my drm-next branches. > > > > > > > > ---- On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:02:57 -0800 blubee blubeeme< > gurenchan@gmail.com> wrote ---- > > I've never liked lines of code as a measure of how good software is. I > like > > challenges. > > > > Best, > > Owen > > > > On Wed, Jan 4, 2017, 02:33 Roland Smith wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 12:14:54AM -0600, Zane C. B-H. wrote: > > > > On 2016-12-31 09:03, Andrei wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 07:11:51 -0600 > > > > > Mark Linimon wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 02:51:55PM +0300, Beeblebrox via > freebsd-x11 > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > I'm sure the Foundation and developers have been debating > whether to > > > > >> > drop desktop all together > > > > >> > > > > >> I have never heard of any such discussion. > > > > > > Would the Foundation be willing to sponsor a developer to work on X? > I'd be > > > willing to donate toward that. > > > > > > > Honestly this entire thread has been full of WTF. > > > > > > Second that. > > > > > > > I've been using FreeBSD for desktop purposes since like late > 2001/early > > > > 2002. The only issue I've ever had is X -configure does a shit job > of > > > > picking defaults at times, but that is not a FreeBSD issue. > > > > > > I've been using FreeBSD amd64 on desktops and laptops since 2004 > (5.3). > > > > > > Mostly on Radeon GPU's. > > > > > > On the whole, I'd say X works fine. > > > > > > > Yes, X tends to lag a bit behind Linux, > > > > > > Given limited manpower, that is pretty much a given. Especially since > Linux > > > graphics seem (IMO) to be in a permanent state of flux. > > > > > > > but all in all X is a much > > > > better experience on FreeBSD than Linux. One of the big thing that > > > > really stands out between the two is screen tearing is rare on > FreeBSD > > > > compared to Linux. > > > > > > I cannot recall ever seeing screen tearing on FreeBSD. > > > > > > > X works well enough under FreeBSD that I honestly use it for gaming > via > > > > wine. > > > > > > > > Personally I am proud and happy with what our X team has done with > it, > > > > > > Ditto. > > > > > > > especially with Intel chipset support since like 10, making using > it on > > > > a broader number of laptops all that more awesome. In 11 it is > > > > completely goat fragging wiz with the new KMS stuff. <3 > > > > > > The new KMS works fine with my Radeons. > > > > > > Roland > > > -- > > > R.F.Smith > http://rsmith.home.xs4all.nl/ > > > [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much > appreciated] > > > pgp: 5753 3324 1661 B0FE 8D93 FCED 40F6 D5DC A38A 33E0 (keyID: > A38A33E0) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-x11@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 22:10:38 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EBDAC9D9D8 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 22:10:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from sender-of-o52.zoho.com (sender-of-o52.zoho.com [135.84.80.217]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CDCC2A6C for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 22:10:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mmacy@nextbsd.org) Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1483481429451453.8994862700914; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 14:10:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 14:10:29 -0800 From: Matthew Macy To: "blubee blubeeme" Cc: "Roland Smith" , "Zane C. B-H." , "x11-list freebsd" Message-ID: <159666235c7.123958e86174268.1988566489792006158@nextbsd.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> <20170103183149.GA86111@slackbox.erewhon.home> <15965d3f462.e563526350116.951917747823032795@nextbsd.org> <159663a3ce5.1150200c6170891.7342168662165756909@nextbsd.org> Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 22:10:38 -0000 ---- On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 13:37:30 -0800 blubee blubeeme wrote ---- > Well, knowing things like this up front would be helpful or is it just insider knowledge from people who were around at that time this stuff was going on. These are genuine questions I'm asking. It's not widely discussed. It reflects badly on FreeBSD as well to have a former contributor react like that. Nonetheless, it illustrates the frustration that contributors to this area might experience. > There's no reason for any corporation to fund BSD graphics work so I'm not even thinking about that. I doubt there's any funds to pay even a single developer. Barring tablet / kiosk development - which I see no case for, given the wide adoption of Android, Google's deep pockets, and the fact that no one is really making money off of *that*. > The more you look around the more it seems like there's a lot more to this issue. I am going to make contributions but I'd like to avoid reinventing the wheel but I also don't want for freebsd to be dependent on things outside its control which seems nuts. Every year new graphics hardware comes out and applications come to depend on new interfaces. The FreeBSD community has little say in either. -M From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 22:30:38 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD8EC9E024 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 22:30:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf0-x233.google.com (mail-lf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90A3C15F6 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 22:30:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id d16so2685312lfb.1 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 14:30:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=I/05COh1J7bNQHyc14xN7fwORCJB+G7Y7bqNDSitDss=; b=UXDjz0VvCOpY00cbFHix6PbqW6cWdsucVnQPw/lZqyQErsEdLCbHsXpo1e0xrdzopJ BFUl8CQLsDYohoRLwherY9NWRO62hvJPNDp7/HeykiFFdNiorgsTPbYUasUJW63NK5FV yM5+L0GOwGVbrRPW1iuY/ieAk3CeynSe1IQCa3I8TD5v7VNc70RuB97gYWOnwpcI3U44 aPmHnsXOrPRzAclTi1WyPWQRLlZLLLXwFbgDrRhrtShosy+M//67bo/bWTD+PYshqmWg Enh/if6BxvHExlH1Bdg8nQ6J81KFTBmAhrNQdAakLf9tPwZbG9qYcujXgUjuBCfZjCNh HpbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=I/05COh1J7bNQHyc14xN7fwORCJB+G7Y7bqNDSitDss=; b=bS0qlnouvHeoRVZpp0BCq4hsln7ixhYxl8O248db4J7p78D0o/GYX6/CH4sqDgWO6J h7boOs2dW3sQ6JvJwjBlw69seIbgHel2D4dqnNQCdXZI7B5OlrTGjvc1eAPn6LmRBKVP XWPhEhdCmavnSGMjnSk9KJvIQJckVi4tCkw/3QmbV+eSgs7WlZCy8qoQ45ZBBGPoVehI 6H8fqJLTc4iIsj62sKSPyzaRg6DAxREL1BZFqoRJKWnyntbzy76iLWDsgzHXVRF+itJX SclGJNDrclsgcpNzNt1QTqZPuQaOQOEN54D1GZf5bbO58Xn0FD5wMtDygpIKa3Sht5Gl TdmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJ/WXI3n3nxgyG1tUxNk8oYicQP6j+G/K+x4VrxwwJ0UWnmb1vba2BCUwhZ/lAU3HY0PTq/yQOOVRlh4Q== X-Received: by 10.46.9.73 with SMTP id 70mr24237929ljj.2.1483482635491; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 14:30:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> <20170103183149.GA86111@slackbox.erewhon.home> <15965d3f462.e563526350116.951917747823032795@nextbsd.org> <159663a3ce5.1150200c6170891.7342168662165756909@nextbsd.org> <159666235c7.123958e86174268.1988566489792006158@nextbsd.org> In-Reply-To: <159666235c7.123958e86174268.1988566489792006158@nextbsd.org> From: blubee blubeeme Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 22:30:24 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant To: Matthew Macy Cc: Roland Smith , "Zane C. B-H." , x11-list freebsd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 22:30:38 -0000 Backs against the wall, nothing to lose, there's no use in being timid at a time like this. Thanks for all the info. If there's anything else anyone would like to say, I'm all ears. For me, more info I have the better, I don't care if it's good, bad or indifferent I'm all ears. If you don't want to share something on the public mailing list, you can reach me at my email address. Best, Owen On Wed, Jan 4, 2017, 06:10 Matthew Macy wrote: > > > > ---- On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 13:37:30 -0800 blubee blubeeme < > gurenchan@gmail.com> wrote ---- > > Well, knowing things like this up front would be helpful or is it just > insider knowledge from people who were around at that time this stuff was > going on. These are genuine questions I'm asking. > > It's not widely discussed. It reflects badly on FreeBSD as well to have a > former contributor react like that. Nonetheless, it illustrates the > frustration that contributors to this area might experience. > > > > There's no reason for any corporation to fund BSD graphics work so I'm > not even thinking about that. I doubt there's any funds to pay even a > single developer. > > Barring tablet / kiosk development - which I see no case for, given the > wide adoption of Android, Google's deep pockets, and the fact that no one > is really making money off of *that*. > > > > The more you look around the more it seems like there's a lot more to > this issue. I am going to make contributions but I'd like to avoid > reinventing the wheel but I also don't want for freebsd to be dependent on > things outside its control which seems nuts. > > Every year new graphics hardware comes out and applications come to depend > on new interfaces. The FreeBSD community has little say in either. > > -M > > > From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Tue Jan 3 23:02:47 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E45C9EE21 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 23:02:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrnils@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x236.google.com (mail-vk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B98412F0 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 23:02:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andrnils@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id y197so132074219vky.2 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 15:02:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=s3b9+wszDddsBlVvgTJLwlZsUJCXeiqo1DWZjuZCjxk=; b=LzM9f5mJjhR8QFNVqiJ6Az/ns1xed200ea2kdZhsvLHConsmfwqS0RMqjpT6tuC3Hj Ltyi2tx0bF7vfMCrLoa4BLSx9Ks7GxfQDU+IfXqpyrFRmjunJ457pL+2EWa++cmyiqoP Y8OcfToSXqqhDHoKTGi0POV2S607lhOS29S5Ayes283kiAi0keTf4Afn5yEgx5pgATz4 uoAzE5KkCvjcX+3H4qGmGT3ifg/lrSokW3TqN7AbzGw1p/fcqQGLGFzaFh1bJb3I1AHU KTTzqiTPnALRsKTj4qFGixRfGOuq0OpApJGj7lsmN4LVYg0qAk8e22Oyb/8U87LNdZEI knSA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s3b9+wszDddsBlVvgTJLwlZsUJCXeiqo1DWZjuZCjxk=; b=sl9gacQaBx2E5L83n/JWRySiC5ML2jC3jSRcxk0RUfPTf+QkcBgvp6fLFtp+QzVAWC DSI5EAD0gYYyhmZ/dIcq+UQs9NRz0WlX0E6kErUMuVqiXjFb5ZItJJCl2NKDnh2cyML5 jrRlqNkQZxbH/Y94/c3cNHssscSzI3Ka/OQ7Dk6klLH/2DWBMrMppsXepjdK2k8l1mUK Cv1tS6ROqClggnCjmRe2LiS3zYY8a0tSQCdGLEJ6gzSDhAUv/6eSUH1jE4Q+XuV92Tc1 wFXMWkqD8WtS2KINYhHtQL5Nqae33m+gZualezIJNj/K+abPg6gOdh3CP8aoajk+Swtl 3jaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKmW6eNqSCST0uyIechRqYdb9pVpAli65ygTWjyj4KVY4BueVTVF7DVNFKgq5kBVHV2a3toNI8A+i0vHQ== X-Received: by 10.31.227.130 with SMTP id a124mr18230982vkh.45.1483484566554; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 15:02:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.5.200 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 15:02:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.176.5.200 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 15:02:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> <20170103183149.GA86111@slackbox.erewhon.home> <15965d3f462.e563526350116.951917747823032795@nextbsd.org> <159663a3ce5.1150200c6170891.7342168662165756909@nextbsd.org> <159666235c7.123958e86174268.1988566489792006158@nextbsd.org> From: Andreas Nilsson Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 00:02:45 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant To: Matthew Macy Cc: FreeBSD X11 mailing list , blubee blubeeme Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 23:02:47 -0000 On Jan 3, 2017 23:10, "Matthew Macy" wrote: ---- On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 13:37:30 -0800 blubee blubeeme < gurenchan@gmail.com> wrote ---- > Well, knowing things like this up front would be helpful or is it just insider knowledge from people who were around at that time this stuff was going on. These are genuine questions I'm asking. It's not widely discussed. It reflects badly on FreeBSD as well to have a former contributor react like that. Nonetheless, it illustrates the frustration that contributors to this area might experience. > There's no reason for any corporation to fund BSD graphics work so I'm not even thinking about that. I doubt there's any funds to pay even a single developer. Barring tablet / kiosk development - which I see no case for, given the wide adoption of Android, Google's deep pockets, and the fact that no one is really making money off of *that*. > The more you look around the more it seems like there's a lot more to this issue. I am going to make contributions but I'd like to avoid reinventing the wheel but I also don't want for freebsd to be dependent on things outside its control which seems nuts. Every year new graphics hardware comes out and applications come to depend on new interfaces. The FreeBSD community has little say in either. -M _______________________________________________ freebsd-x11@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" I for one would like to Matthew Macy for advancing the graphics stack as far as it has come. I find it easier to keep up with drm-next 4.7 than xorg-next. I do have some issues on a x1-yoga, where chromium sometimes distorts X, without any real logs. Anyhow, FreeBSD in this state is more productive than win10-dev builds which certainly have come a long way. OS X have some other benefits. Suspend-resume that is. Osx failed me 3 times in 3 years of 20-times a day usage, vs fbsd which on my x1 yoga has never worked. oh, it suspends fine, but video is borked on resume. But that is fine, sometime that will be worked out. FreeBSD is where I feel at home. X might be somewhat behind, but it is better now than what it has been. With Mr. Macy's patches we are getting there. Let's hope his foundational patches gets included so we can move on with integrating linux-upstream releases as ports in a more timely fashion. I wish Mr. Macy and all of you a good 2017. Best regards Andreas From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Wed Jan 4 14:48:08 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27E5C9E703; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 14:48:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek.cedro@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi0-x242.google.com (mail-oi0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B2AB1974; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 14:48:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek.cedro@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi0-x242.google.com with SMTP id 3so46050001oih.1; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 06:48:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4vSPouSJD8/FzR5wiqGh6z8Il4uI3OT20nvcoA26ZLs=; b=X6WhYsseXewwS4/PR40Lq5jhJ45FHCKPwawLwzi3OHRwOH+ygNGPVf09GgjGLGKZOB fHJzmdwwjk8604zftovq5IKqNaoY9mK4lnXdtctpzPci5dGauU6jlPWC0rfu3NufeeKF 3BAckg9JrLz77xXA8oIVKtHU4Xvpia/irvxSKSTTudkeNQxbUSXetBgonXeUTwv8e42u cZIAzqPpLtW/DxWiuSx/rCUcHEbmUa0YSn0xpYftArR+zeMGs/qdZQePpJMGXZaaUZgC UORaPDLrsmd2LL3zRhzN1csJwJqC8grnTXyBlBqnmVMfiv9SCztBe2ARkucgcDGkwS31 Oxkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=4vSPouSJD8/FzR5wiqGh6z8Il4uI3OT20nvcoA26ZLs=; b=CSRlWxIALlVLq7WN2XCShhpCSeMPqJUwihf2hNKGHSK7w7EAA3WhaX4jEQXc8Luk26 Zq0+yj0fvBvvneVU3kJ85etF5MnYOezsWrGxM6+ocZhG3mbGaxRqYqfgYjQ/HkjR7ZyE D3VXo39bAVO7TRYBoIUBoNW8Hbut3bFFmhxUFtqzeh1Xv+DeSGTL93ogEMeVPQSRZ4TA bCw11TU1b2eFgDVmd7ABNmcMXnYSK8mo/dltMIK0TdNfXrehSoE/ask0yhkcWzFntOVE bZ4zgApnUSSNqlIvIO2Igb9OhY295UYR2Opm2DCVCyqzMa6KGZZgkyIVgCqu11cx/1bo 4TNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIJqlFl6MqvSxIQtLezAUFfwB+XmEEgML4869FvFEmkhNhWFIDZMif7fEDROGGId5OD4fE6/1GHXQcvpA== X-Received: by 10.157.45.115 with SMTP id v106mr37188845ota.58.1483541287845; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 06:48:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: tomek.cedro@gmail.com Received: by 10.157.13.194 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 06:47:47 -0800 (PST) From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 15:47:47 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: nQPiBjWlogs0Y6uRkeKjE5zVbaQ Message-ID: Subject: UEFI Xorg (EE) no screens found on FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Stable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 14:48:08 -0000 Hello! I have noticed that I cannot use Xorg anymore on UEFI box with 11.0-RELEASE. I get (EE) no screens found, before Xorg terminates. X Server 1.17.4 (RELEASE 2015-10-28). This happens on my new HYPERBOOK SL502VR (P650RP6-G) with nVidia GTX1060 and INTEL and VESA does not finding any screen. This also happens on VirtualBox when system is installed with UEFI enabled. I had no problem starting X on a BIOS box with no UEFI. Any hints on how to make it work? :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Wed Jan 4 16:08:55 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F07C9E412; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 16:08:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek.cedro@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi0-x244.google.com (mail-oi0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C8281198; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 16:08:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek.cedro@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi0-x244.google.com with SMTP id u15so75214957oie.3; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 08:08:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=6VBDeNs0bY8lLvbX+Bm39YMDZJA1vC6pWw6Z8f5kTIQ=; b=R2wU/mObXEDptqLTJluKvL8MW2J0ulVbUvIwvvbrYOkRkQtKFLLd//TV8oSOLyfgjl AbOYI3m+26szX6TqqyLmt/oq+p4ibDuDjxs7eNtaqrjkTxGhKsd/CD9RKrfIOVpbRNAK FFM4FK51Y/NTri73DM4Abm3lkmUwBNw7ml0tOKLYPF3iyZKWKt2i8Q5RbFW7SHJcw5g9 lWMBzfmx4XgnsrhJUHmXlLvJn3UwCk4Zz0CtQhN4bkQbuedKFzb/prTt8iO8IMz4RC9Q 7AKhoF7u4kIhKWseekJK4+8YZaL6w+KnvWYJxqAFt3mUHiekIU78PgUfAZ1ulV2T87n3 UbMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=6VBDeNs0bY8lLvbX+Bm39YMDZJA1vC6pWw6Z8f5kTIQ=; b=aFMea1FA/FY4238txGU7Z6nj1HYN2gTWmCBgCaKvZUaZLQ6f5/i6yfVsLhXfg9/kuQ 7to3cYk838jlgx2h1xlxF0Gx4RvezKFPerDOuNgOJIae79tzvTeUwqg04BlgxKVr9hTB kGcX/kbMENOHCZkWRvUgqSQy/PVfVeFn/zMv4NQMypVnoAmOC0riYrK6j/8xA1ys+uKj UAtzGgf1KiPM7CgnyqWj1mEj3LjKl54Z5nCwUCltxyMA8ICRnjSOrnXbQec/p9FOJpQA OM3YZviVrSWvam02GZlalU3HR3iGjbJxUCjZ2JFlsXOwFZRdDc6M/xW48CY6KcDpHKaG MJmA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXL9KTPxs70zaYTQHpensE8RcYI9zSLp7eG8PYrE4Lv8pL7ya21st4PPpt1mnuI/t63z3FLds/X+7oo1Uw== X-Received: by 10.157.54.178 with SMTP id h47mr31670810otc.159.1483546134830; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 08:08:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: tomek.cedro@gmail.com Received: by 10.157.13.194 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 08:08:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:08:34 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: diA-n90orJ1mht8EW8E3vDiaAF8 Message-ID: Subject: Re: UEFI Xorg (EE) no screens found on FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Stable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 16:08:55 -0000 On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > I have noticed that I cannot use Xorg anymore on UEFI box with 11.0-RELEASE. > I get (EE) no screens found, before Xorg terminates. > X Server 1.17.4 (RELEASE 2015-10-28). Some clue: DO NOT USE VESA DRIVER! USE SCFB ON UEFI HARDWARE :-) https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics/SCFB https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics Still, would be nice to get at least Intel working, nVidia would be perfect! :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Wed Jan 4 16:25:52 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D004C9EFF9; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 16:25:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek.cedro@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi0-x244.google.com (mail-oi0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62B1914BC; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 16:25:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek.cedro@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi0-x244.google.com with SMTP id v84so74991132oie.2; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 08:25:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=3CnpHuqooj/pz6XfKRrY5DeoWe6XPda389TRjVY77Ls=; b=D0kQC9sv+9mPlir71ar/qQVmbp3ViaUfEV9aRrBy5vRiyIyJK0HhS2XHGqmYYSStMR owr8dNrFiNTuceITtf1tOD5rkzBaWMNI20dxRT5ME+++hSuRnYAo8TxS2ZojOTmMlfp3 nlGmfOQnVGCT4eYqZUj0jxnSGhbhCe8TIuZRuJyqV0qlCQdtC4/cYAO9F0iXa082bGdr lYhbp3yPl+QqORm2kjKQZnorG6hGNC39/bj8NTq9wXzUuucxDNewSGobzR5JvdjIjpZ8 5b68ND/yDyZ72hDjwDKcTeKO031TupRVHX57BFmLvt9wna8OwJnTzwFjRewCEdwarUmy gZLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=3CnpHuqooj/pz6XfKRrY5DeoWe6XPda389TRjVY77Ls=; b=b7s565bAScWQnfMtKlzjqIn9CAkMDIfwKw60GrIn0F9mqzymYhFOo0K9I1M28InoOe jpCx9j5bplngiqe3IFGXycGFLaN7P7h91cuwQpUXbj0v2uTIUa8edQ+v1HTOirx5BM6S cQL5hXthN3Q1C03/UpZnI/0TUas3Ya693icGDbRMdj0xDDk6bB6YacmuRiuvVQbr+Mts YggX1pwG9wwl3sqoy9iCP17UW96VwHy0ljz3IbL+47GmwQAaMVL+gXe12GaEl0LD0XdI EUkakXBECliuEeo14Pwg1K/6ZgBUF0Ric5V5oDbVePXoIb6UB4tnB2zItWRYPaxVHDtj FLDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJOf6DfJ4qbXlyRitqtAfdytnG+lUhgVZyZ5mnLZBbx2kfAfGBVlnaDIqMvp00glVsyhJs5NnGA5XgI6Q== X-Received: by 10.157.54.178 with SMTP id h47mr31702530otc.159.1483547151691; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 08:25:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: tomek.cedro@gmail.com Received: by 10.157.13.194 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 08:25:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:25:31 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: HnSsOOXSJXSeZsPdwz0-9lIwoxQ Message-ID: Subject: Re: UEFI Xorg (EE) no screens found on FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Stable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 16:25:52 -0000 On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:08 PM, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > Some clue: DO NOT USE VESA DRIVER! USE SCFB ON UEFI HARDWARE :-) Although SCFB driver did some switch I have black screen both on laptop and virtualbox.. -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Wed Jan 4 16:54:50 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF3DBC9FA96; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 16:54:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek.cedro@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi0-x243.google.com (mail-oi0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A445F1B4C; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 16:54:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek.cedro@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi0-x243.google.com with SMTP id f201so75517304oib.0; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 08:54:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=gjXMfPyFhTjABdNVHz0BgspwsafGlh7AUnWbgLDBj3M=; b=JudfWOTngxDM0Yw3XVPC1KY0pYI/0pM7Kn37ZEtO0LYQ0M4sZOuHPVRjBC5UFH2JL9 n/7WulPwYFLTIv7wto6iz5/4ehAbjEFHLNuVEYLAbSfN9BlfQ3eZJsWYhXrtgq2Qojzh FrLd+0czxaFBMFS6h4BwrRM4VefpMYSikWKy4F7155lG+SU7JGlRGqYAUlkxJBGSIJBh +Yq6hmek5+5HOQARNT6bpfmXtZB/yHsDufH3ELzpGuqjUaSH9rNVTd+fGuvIkmp04Ayw zghHqkYOIg8qlWFN5wP5q9SdsZnj2eLTtnwiqlT1LFoS0W/5H4JPrm56/NjSc+92uaOD tKXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=gjXMfPyFhTjABdNVHz0BgspwsafGlh7AUnWbgLDBj3M=; b=sxQTAkQD92MY1CMTatzZ4yyV1Q07BCByY44/IgC4YiUgkBKu7S/d9vfxjB43HnZ9fq OLndcSRxfd06GCPsh+cTfU7pB3FaVoVRYT/a2HzQOOfQfreQ6/vgIhG6o0BQ9Bb4I9Kd 4PUh20PI2EY3vQOsdpKpqKfDkcDla2lAl5ntfnTUmu2nBayhNTNz5tPBtz/FtcPHmOjr us83V+IlD8/oQQfBjzGUpTxYIsYj+jp8drb+7Ub9cErjhdojB4H+Pnn9J29pcrNdfykY B+34r8zT0TtG9ghRmxnVMAL+vJ78DbltCgVI6UYLDKVIJaxVd0jFJCCQNy3eg3Y1bTmi 75gA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJsAMq4w8Ag2wi3Ayxn7oukcSshuD5uW/c5+rxl5bvq+s/JTI5wHOteKSGwI2DxjuZ/UZrlwwLPJpOjGQ== X-Received: by 10.157.45.115 with SMTP id v106mr37477835ota.58.1483548889985; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 08:54:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: tomek.cedro@gmail.com Received: by 10.157.13.194 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 08:54:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:54:29 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: zF6f0_dglpJ1BTKVV3qz1GeuyJo Message-ID: Subject: Re: UEFI Xorg (EE) no screens found on FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Stable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 16:54:51 -0000 On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > Although SCFB driver did some switch I have black screen both on > laptop and virtualbox.. It was some stuff loading really long in the background. After recreating the setup it works! You can use `Xorg -configure` then replace vesa with scfb and move cfg to /etc/X11/xorg.conf. USE SCFB ON UEFI HARDWARE INSTEAD VESA AS FALLBACK! :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Wed Jan 4 17:21:54 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568AEC9F5C0; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:21:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek.cedro@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi0-x241.google.com (mail-oi0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B20A1D2E; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 17:21:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek.cedro@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi0-x241.google.com with SMTP id f201so75635498oib.0; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 09:21:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=j/Q6B26c9OM3wYC94mIu70+r6/YLNhODrkzVaK1myfY=; b=O1gotofI574Tu8g2tQgAGgMkZOSuK/wL9Ak9cX5doAM7QulIyPUFqGVSU2cjcreyje YiDJPZAaDMt1Yuueu3UGN4vWWSi4F6gBG7gdXIjo8wUf2TSxz7LPYnO41DzXSB8V/tFd JLXc4UXu7T9irqRq3OW+CX8BxEXFFG/49MYKH5Jjy4iEYjKvTpPzytuj6hO9jLunf6LA a/5JPW3wPP047Cxl20dtxpqKl3XdMKq9csLnKRRNBvROPWOmp31FsxFZsd4VknQUIZaY kw+8h52TvvsysUdTPQlXQl1ZQhomNOXTDGOsemr4gOqsbmZ3vqRRP+urQxMDEM+Wx05u M+9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=j/Q6B26c9OM3wYC94mIu70+r6/YLNhODrkzVaK1myfY=; b=klPScrLLT+MMZA1kMUXyZ7pmeN5kojJzl+SQeY5hYem8eiYsJ8//qXaa0/PgfJ7ZKB DnOvFTYK0I8b9VOHrHUFuVKgkWBKhhC5B1Ozxi+ZlQf1+Xcm7rzZ2XUVx2vftlEDir8U FvgNuIPoNjQlOPTZXSK64hbpd8hbXeBhLU/s2hUQ3oj/LHS66NvsYdmW9w2yJnjlQzRn HKPEWf1h+SOK/cFPHyvMLGPXXhb2+kKVakLQ3Kb/u1by2wZ4+5WmwOa8DOOPRI8NQyAw wSRYYr1tOX93WdLRWSXxShrYxhiA5V+sU4ZFhR8vDdkdIz5h57k4VlEBvuk7xM0UiUr7 RDjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIwfIQoHsV6EkKXnkMGgskNoOmMWnVQTG8W59StJljFMhiP7EMFxHu7ogHwee1eyrpElV9e2TC+CJ8beQ== X-Received: by 10.202.252.8 with SMTP id a8mr32850750oii.159.1483550513120; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 09:21:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: tomek.cedro@gmail.com Received: by 10.157.13.194 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 09:21:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 18:21:32 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: jd41Q-7Q16cg1zyLXES5O4ll8T8 Message-ID: Subject: Re: UEFI Xorg (EE) no screens found on FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Stable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2017 17:21:54 -0000 On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:54 PM, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > USE SCFB ON UEFI HARDWARE INSTEAD VESA AS FALLBACK! :-) this also only works as root.. :\ -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Thu Jan 5 08:55:02 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5DC8CA03A3 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:55:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFC161512 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:55:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id CF144CA03A2; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:55:02 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB56CA03A1 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:55:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org (kenobi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::16:76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEA9C1511 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:55:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from bugs.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.118]) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id v058t2PJ032240 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:55:02 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: x11@FreeBSD.org Subject: maintainer-feedback requested: [Bug 215791] x11-servers/xorg-server: please increase MAXCLIENTS in include/misc.h to at least 512 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 08:55:02 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Type: request X-Bugzilla-Product: Ports & Packages X-Bugzilla-Component: Individual Port(s) X-Bugzilla-Version: Latest X-Bugzilla-Keywords: X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Many People X-Bugzilla-Who: X-Bugzilla-Status: New X-Bugzilla-Resolution: X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: x11@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Flags: maintainer-feedback? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 08:55:03 -0000 vermaden@interia.pl has reassigned Bugzilla Automation 's request for maintainer-feedback to x11@FreeBSD.org: Bug 215791: x11-servers/xorg-server: please increase MAXCLIENTS in include/misc.h to at least 512 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D215791 --- Description --- Current limit for MAXCLIENTS on X11 is set to 256 which sometimes is too sm= all. # grep -r MAXCLIENTS xorg-server-1.17.4 | grep 256 ./include/resource.h:#if MAXCLIENTS =3D=3D 256 ./include/misc.h:#define MAXCLIENTS 256 If You ask how to reach that limit (256), then try using ClusterSSH on more then 250 hosts ;) Dunno if that is good argument, but RHEL or Debian distrubutions also incre= ased it to at least 512. Regards, vermaden From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Thu Jan 5 08:55:03 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A249CA03AA for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:55:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237191516 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:55:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 22D65CA03A9; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:55:03 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22877CA03A8 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:55:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org (kenobi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::16:76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 123731515 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:55:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from bugs.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.118]) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id v058t2PN032240 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:55:02 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: x11@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Bug 215791] x11-servers/xorg-server: please increase MAXCLIENTS in include/misc.h to at least 512 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 08:55:02 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Reason: AssignedTo X-Bugzilla-Type: new X-Bugzilla-Watch-Reason: None X-Bugzilla-Product: Ports & Packages X-Bugzilla-Component: Individual Port(s) X-Bugzilla-Version: Latest X-Bugzilla-Keywords: X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Many People X-Bugzilla-Who: vermaden@interia.pl X-Bugzilla-Status: New X-Bugzilla-Resolution: X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: x11@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Flags: maintainer-feedback? X-Bugzilla-Changed-Fields: bug_id short_desc product version rep_platform op_sys bug_status bug_severity priority component assigned_to reporter flagtypes.name Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 08:55:03 -0000 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D215791 Bug ID: 215791 Summary: x11-servers/xorg-server: please increase MAXCLIENTS in include/misc.h to at least 512 Product: Ports & Packages Version: Latest Hardware: Any OS: Any Status: New Severity: Affects Many People Priority: --- Component: Individual Port(s) Assignee: x11@FreeBSD.org Reporter: vermaden@interia.pl Assignee: x11@FreeBSD.org Flags: maintainer-feedback?(x11@FreeBSD.org) Current limit for MAXCLIENTS on X11 is set to 256 which sometimes is too sm= all. # grep -r MAXCLIENTS xorg-server-1.17.4 | grep 256 ./include/resource.h:#if MAXCLIENTS =3D=3D 256 ./include/misc.h:#define MAXCLIENTS 256 If You ask how to reach that limit (256), then try using ClusterSSH on more then 250 hosts ;) Dunno if that is good argument, but RHEL or Debian distrubutions also incre= ased it to at least 512. Regards, vermaden --=20 You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.= From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Thu Jan 5 10:11:26 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71263C9F56B for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:11:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5F01644 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:11:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 56D8EC9F56A; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:11:26 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567C5C9F569 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:11:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org (kenobi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::16:76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C2281643 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:11:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from bugs.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.118]) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id v05ABQ37015008 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:11:26 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: x11@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Bug 215791] x11-servers/xorg-server: please increase MAXCLIENTS in include/misc.h to at least 512 Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 10:11:26 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Reason: AssignedTo X-Bugzilla-Type: changed X-Bugzilla-Watch-Reason: None X-Bugzilla-Product: Ports & Packages X-Bugzilla-Component: Individual Port(s) X-Bugzilla-Version: Latest X-Bugzilla-Keywords: X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Many People X-Bugzilla-Who: vermaden@interia.pl X-Bugzilla-Status: New X-Bugzilla-Resolution: X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: x11@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Flags: maintainer-feedback? X-Bugzilla-Changed-Fields: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 10:11:26 -0000 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D215791 --- Comment #1 from vermaden@interia.pl --- Fast way to test below, I am using it with 512 and it was stable ala the ti= me. # XORG=3D/usr/ports/x11-servers/xorg-server # make -C ${XORG} extract By default, the X Server installs as a set-user-id root binary. When run by a normal user, it checks arguments and environment as done in the x11/wrapp= er port before handling them normally. If you are concerned about the security of this, but still want to run an X Server (for example using xdm/kdm/gdm, which will still run the server as root), you can cancel the build and set xorg-server_UNSET=3DSUID in /etc/make.conf. =3D=3D=3D> License MIT accepted by the user =3D=3D=3D> Found saved configuration for xorg-server-1.17.4,1 =3D=3D=3D> xorg-server-1.17.4,1 depends on file: /usr/local/sbin/pkg - fo= und =3D=3D=3D> Fetching all distfiles required by xorg-server-1.17.4,1 for buil= ding =3D=3D=3D> Extracting for xorg-server-1.17.4,1 =3D> SHA256 Checksum OK for xorg/xserver/xorg-server-1.17.4.tar.bz2. # cd /usr/ports/obj/${XORG}/work/xorg-server-*/include (OR) # cd ${XORG}/work/xorg-server-*/include # grep MAXCLIENTS misc.h #define MAXCLIENTS 256 # sed -i -E 's/MAXCLIENTS.*256/MAXCLIENTS\ 512/g' misc.h # grep MAXCLIENTS misc.h #define MAXCLIENTS 512 # make -C ${XORG} build deinstall install clean Regards, vermaden --=20 You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.= From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Thu Jan 5 13:38:06 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF725CA12AD for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 13:38:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from admin@x227.save85off.com) Received: from x227.save85off.com (x227.save85off.com [43.240.238.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D791CB5 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 13:38:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from admin@x227.save85off.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; s=save85off; d=x227.save85off.com; h=MIME-Version:From:To:Date:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; i=admin@x227.save85off.com; bh=pB8Mdc/cujowa3Nb0bTZdxxF2n4=; b=Waqv5xSHdDKVFuGhIhdn6uR7qunbPp+lsiQXWH0aeOxC6Ypu9EXj5hkxQqcjsSwAsnznOwiYMpIV /Xve09fDDOzHgZcGeWSE/4l+THzvZcHdlN3eQyozTpWxXnPWTllUD7rrjSp6c2paq8DQvU2To59I u2wK9qX8wQiVpuU5Fvc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; q=dns; s=save85off; d=x227.save85off.com; b=BMXipPvSWYNk9BZR73xxC6/kMKKMXc5JN9UmIpqKPy4kkntl+A+7mUI0y92ARXSpjuUq/SU7j1cs yhdXf8Hp6pkPsr2UXqLcIPvuo1gxpEtH2w+Ty40rx6EMWc+ZlzNTWdeJJVoQLghoc/IevrJA3RpN sZjJgmg8+XIvzQjLcWo=; From: "Michael Kors Discount" To: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Date: 5 Jan 2017 21:28:06 +0800 Subject: Jingle, Jingle! Our Christmas Shop is Open. New Products even in discount! win 146$ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 13:38:07 -0000 From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sat Jan 7 18:26:25 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96186CA42F6 for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 18:26:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801D81FCE for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 18:26:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 7F6A3CA42F4; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 18:26:25 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D601CA42F3 for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 18:26:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org (kenobi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::16:76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D5D61FCD for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 18:26:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from bugs.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.118]) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id v07IQPiA079933 for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 18:26:25 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: x11@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Bug 214856] www/firefox in jail intermittently crashed with BadRequest X error Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2017 18:26:25 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Reason: CC X-Bugzilla-Type: changed X-Bugzilla-Watch-Reason: None X-Bugzilla-Product: Ports & Packages X-Bugzilla-Component: Individual Port(s) X-Bugzilla-Version: Latest X-Bugzilla-Keywords: X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Some People X-Bugzilla-Who: freebsd@schukraft.org X-Bugzilla-Status: New X-Bugzilla-Resolution: X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: gecko@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Flags: X-Bugzilla-Changed-Fields: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2017 18:26:25 -0000 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D214856 --- Comment #6 from freebsd@schukraft.org --- Running in a non-VNET jail for quite some time now, seems stable enough. Mi= nor things like sometimes HTML5 video just stopping to work, but no sudden cras= hes. So this seems VNET-related. Should this go to the jail mailing list as well? --=20 You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.= From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Sat Jan 7 21:55:48 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16CCCA4A0C for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 21:55:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD4010D0 for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 21:55:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 8A358CA4A0B; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 21:55:48 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: x11@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89E55CA4A0A for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 21:55:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from kenobi.freebsd.org (kenobi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::16:76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7926410CF for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 21:55:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) Received: from bugs.freebsd.org ([127.0.1.118]) by kenobi.freebsd.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id v07LtlEY059950 for ; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 21:55:48 GMT (envelope-from bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org) From: bugzilla-noreply@freebsd.org To: x11@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Bug 206004] x11/xcb-proto: Patch to build against all Python versions Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2017 21:55:48 +0000 X-Bugzilla-Reason: CC X-Bugzilla-Type: dep_changed X-Bugzilla-Watch-Reason: None X-Bugzilla-Product: Ports & Packages X-Bugzilla-Component: Individual Port(s) X-Bugzilla-Version: Latest X-Bugzilla-Keywords: needs-qa, patch X-Bugzilla-Severity: Affects Only Me X-Bugzilla-Who: sunpoet@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Status: Closed X-Bugzilla-Resolution: DUPLICATE X-Bugzilla-Priority: --- X-Bugzilla-Assigned-To: freebsd-ports-bugs@FreeBSD.org X-Bugzilla-Flags: maintainer-feedback? X-Bugzilla-Changed-Fields: bug_status resolution Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Bugzilla-URL: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/ Auto-Submitted: auto-generated MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2017 21:55:48 -0000 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D206004 Bug 206004 depends on bug 205807, which changed state. Bug 205807 Summary: [exp-run] Mk/Uses/python.mk: add more PLIST_SUB, rename= PYOEXTENSION to PYTHON_PYOEXTENSION https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D205807 What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|In Progress |Closed Resolution|--- |FIXED --=20 You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.=